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7/17/13

Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils? | LinkedIn

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Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils?
6 months ago

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Evan Z. NAS 1638 is a method for classifying particle count results, similar to ISO 4406:1999. The key difference is that NAS is a differential count per 100 ml of sample, and ISO is a cumulative count per 1 ml of sample. NAS 1638 categories are: 5 to 15 microns particles, 15 to 25 micron particles, 25 to 50 micron particles, 50 to 100 micron particles and >100 microns. It is possible to report more larger particles than small particles. ISO 4406:1999 categories are: 4 microns and larger, 6 microns and larger, 14 microns and larger, 21 microns and larger, 38 microns and larger, and 70 microns and larger. Because each category includes some of the next scale, it is not possible to report higher numbers in larger categories. To see a tabular representation of the NAS 1638 classifications, see: http://www.ehpeg.com/hydraulic-training/hydraulic-oil/hydraulic-oil-contamination/ I hope that helps, if you have specific questions, I will do my best to answer.
6 months ago

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Changbao M. Add a comment... These pump facts are certainly useful when discussing the impact of ISO cleanliness on working hydraulic or circulating system components. Gear Pumps - expected life 20,000 hours - Dynamic Clearance * Tooth to Side Plate: .5 - 5 micron * Tip to Case: .5 - 5 micron - Recommended Cleanliness: * Pressure <1500 psi ISO 17/14 * Pressure 1500 - 2500 PSI ISO 16/14 * Pressure >2500 PSI ISO 16/13 Fixed Vane Pumps - expected life 16,000 hours - Dynamic Clearance * Vane Slides: 5 - 13 micron * Vane Tip: .5 - 1 micron - Recommended Cleanliness: * Pressure <1500 psi ISO 17/14 * Pressure 1500 - 2500 PSI ISO 16/14 * Pressure >2500 PSI ISO 16/13 Variable Displacement Vane Pumps - Dynamic Clearance * Vane Slides: 5 - 13 micron * Vane Tip: .5 - 1 micron - Recommended Cleanliness:

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Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils? | LinkedIn
* Pressure <2000 psi ISO 16/14 * Pressure 2000 - 3000 PSI ISO 15/13 Variable Displacement Piston Pumps - expected life 10,000 hours - Dynamic Clearance * Piston to Bore: 5 - 40 micron * Valve Plate to Cylinder .5 - 5 Micron - Recommended Cleanliness: * Pressure <2000 psi ISO 16/14 * Pressure 2000 - 3000 PSI ISO 15/13 * Pressure >3000 PSI ISO 14/12 The real value here is you can certainly show the impact of improving filtration, and correlate a savings based on the amount of sediment generated and pump life expectancy.
6 months ago

Abu Mohammed

Abu Mohammed F. The following example illustrates the use of the NAS classification: Particle Size Range Number of Particles per 100 mL NAS Classification 5 to 15 microns 35,000 8 15 to 25 microns 5,000 7 25 to 50 microns 200 5 50 to 100 microns 30 5 > 100 microns 2 3
6 months ago

yawar S. Thanks for all prompt reply further, i need to clarify if the viscosity increase in oil like hydraulic oil- 32,46,68,100 etc the NAS value respectively increase or decrease.
6 months ago yaw ar

Alexey M. Yawar, NAS value has no relation to viscosity as it shows particle count or contamination of your fluid. Look at the link provided by Evan.
6 months ago Alexey

Salauddin

Salauddin Y. NAS stands for 'National Aerospace Standard of America'. It is the standard for oil cleanliness which indicates the number of microscopic particles of different size say 2-5, 5-15, 15-25, 25-50, 50-100 and above 100 micron present in 100 ml oil sample. In naked eye human can see only the macroscopic or large particles which is larger than 40-70 micron size. But the particle size below 40-70 micron which is called microscopic particles can not be seen without microscope. Whereas under normal circumstances thousands of such microscopic particles are always present in air, oils and containers. These particles creates lots of problems including damage of sophisticated hydraulic and turbine equipments specially servo valves. Through ordinary filtration system in blending plants microscopic or humanly invisible particles can not be removed. In NAS filtration system a specially designed membrane filter is used where all microscopic particles ranging from 2 micron to above and even pathogenic bacteria which can not be seen in naked eye are removed. Depending on the number of particles in different size present in 100 ml of oil there are following cleanliness levels called NAS values. 1. NAS 0 3. NAS 1to12 4. NAS-99 Ordinary or Raw Oils possess NAS Value 11-12. Standard NAS for oil is NAS 6 Special requirement for NAS is below 6 and the lower the batter because lower NAS value indicates the lower number of particles present in the oil. There are two systems of measuring NAS values. One is called "On-line" and another is called "Off-line". In "On-line" measurement system NAS value is measured in operation site during filtration process is going on. On the other hand, in "Off-line" filtration system a sample is collected from the system and taken to the laboratory in a sample bottle and tested. Off-line is more erotic than On-line measurement because the probability of particle contamination is high in Off-line as particles may come from sample bottle or containers.

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Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils? | LinkedIn
So, in BNO Lubricants, we achieve NAS Value Zero (0) but claim NAS 1-3 considering the probability of particle contamination from the containers. you may visit our website www.lub-rref.com For your information NAS 0-3 clean oil may extend the machine life double or triple where lies the importance of using micro-clean oil having NAS 0-3 or below 6. I hope this information will be helpful.
6 months ago

Vergilio

Vergilio F. An Lubricants Factory need specials equipment to produce a NAS 0 hydraulic oil like: safety double room, adequate system of filtration, specials clothes to workers, adequate procedures to avoid external contamination, specials containers and equipment of lab applied to determine cleaning level of oil. It's very hard and difficult and for that the price is too expensive.
6 months ago

Gary A. C. Check out this issue of Machinery Lubrication for an explaination. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/581/hydraulic-fluid-cleanliness
6 months ago Gary A.

toby

toby T. Yawar, you have opened a bag of microns on this subject and perhaps now wished you hadn't. Suffice it to say that zddp a common additive used in many hydraulic oils will be extracted in filtration systems of less than 4 microns and thus deprive the anti wear properties of the additive to perform its function.Used between 0.5-1.2 % its critical that filtration does not extract this vital additive.Most blending plants cannot claim the cleanliness standards that nas system cleanliness standards insist are used on critical pieces of equipment.Open the barrel and whoops airborne material can easily enter the system so be aware you are dealing with particles that require vacuum or pressure cell cleanliness. toby or not toby
6 months ago

Evan Z. Toby, The ZDDP additive is sub-micron in size, around 0.005-0.007 m. It is not possible to directly, mechanically, filter out this particular additive. In an engine, it is possible that soot adsorbs the ZDDP additive, and in turn, the soot itself is filtered. But it is unlikely to filter out ZDDP in a hydraulic oil.
6 months ago

Evan

toby

toby T. Evan et Al A HAPPY NEW YEAR to all , I am aware of ZDDP sub micron particles and its solubility but experience of its solubilty particularly with contaminants such as water. oxidants however small in quantity and size shows that filtration can and does extract zddp possibly by several mechanisms which our filtatration colleagues can describe in detail. These are experiences that are both field based as well as laboratory analysis. Great subject to get a dialogue going....so come on chemists, physicists engineers . ZDDP the most significant additive that has improved lubrication mechanisms across Automotive and Industrial lubricants in the last 40 years. Debate! toby or not toby
6 months ago

Steffen

Steffen B. Hi Toby, I agree with you that the ZDDP additive chemistry can be damaged during the lubricant is in operation e.g. by moisture, heat, chemical contamination, aging and other mechanisms. A common effect is the formation of zinc soaps or other oil insoluble reaction products effecting the filterability or forming sludge or residues. We have analyzed a lot of those residues out of lub-systems or from filter surfaces. Beside a big variety of different reaction chemistry you can often see extreme high Zn levels in the elemental analysis or identify the additive compounds by FTIR. Such critical changes of the oil condition are often hardy detectable by the standard oil analysis especially for systems with large volumes. Additive elements vary only slightly, FTIR shows less changes and a possible decrease of the acid number by additive depletion is compensated by slight increase caused by base oil degradation. Sometimes a strange distribution of ISO 4406 particles codes like e.g. 23/22/12 is an indication of such problems. If the filterability goes down or residues are found in the system further investigation like a detailed analysis of the residue or a more detailed oil analysis e.g. with a the RULER method or a filterability test can be very helpful to identify root causes. By the way I am not aware of those effects for automotive applications and know it only from the industrial site like for big hydraulic systems or from paper mills.
6 months ago

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Surajit G. Hi Toby, Hi Evan, Hi Steffen and Hi to all others, This debate is definitely turning out to be interesting. I myself have faced similar questions while recommending fine particle filters, that whether the additives in the hydraulic and other lube oils get filtered out because of filter pore sizes being too small in the range of say 5 microns and lesser. When I did some information finding myself, I came up with the fact that most of the additives in lube oil systems are soluble in oil and hence does not result in such problems of getting filtered out. And, additives which are not soluble in oil are of the sizes 0.05 microns or lesser thereby not posing any such problems either. Can anyone, including those from the field of additives for oils, comment further on this topic ?
6 months ago

Surajit

Thomas

Thomas H. Hi All, A few (biased) comments, however i find this thread might benefit from my humble oppinion. To answer Yawar: Most common level of NAS in new oil is 7-8. Oil companies will propably argue this and i would accept a NAS 6 if we are talking 1gallon plastic containers tapped on site. But in barrels and in bulk it will for obvious reasons be much higher (logistics chain and container type). It has become more and more common for the aware maintenance crew to do a filling through a filter. (hope they have a fixed filter on the system or it will be in vain, due to accumulated dirt in te tank). Comment to Changbao Ma: Spot on comment, because cleanliness levels should be compred to dynamic clearances in the system. Look at the clearances and then consider if an in-line 10micron filter will have much effect on wear... But ISO code Class is mentioned with only 2 numbers. This is normal for lubeoils (SAE grade engine oils) because sootparticles are so abundant. All other oiltypes should show 3 numbers (4406, 4,6,14micron ranges). if only two numbers are given it is the 4 micron range that is omitted, so you are looking at 6 and 14 micron numbers. Have a look at the dynamic clearances again an let me know if the analysis provides much useful info... On the topic of additives or the "removal" of same... Yes the filter often gets the blame. But dont blame the gun, blame the shooter. If a filter removed additives, it is because of other factors influencing the system. The filter does what it is inteded to do: keep the system clean and dry. The filter only removes particles within the rate/range of filtration given and as stated by mr. Gupta, most additives are soluble in the oil and most machinery manufacturers specify "all additives must be soluble". One exemption though, Antifoam silicone can sometimes be inadequately distributed in the oil and appear as droplets larger than they should be. They will agglomerate if particles are present and if they are large enough, the filter removes the lot.Funny thing is, that if silicone agglomorates, they loose the AF capability. They still show up on the spectral analysis but they are not active. Hence the filter gets the blame, regardless if the AF capabilities are unchanged if you should compare the two oils (oil with effective filter vs.oil with no filter and high particle count). Simple solution, use acrylate as AF. But of course this shows on the pricetag. And please beware, in any case particles less than stated in the standard (NAS or ISO) will not be counted, regardless of how abundant they are represented. You can have a ok cleanliness on paper, but in real life the oil is pitch black, just tink of diesel engine oils. Also beware that a single analysis/particle count only represents a moment in time. A trend gives so much more information. Hope you can use this in your further considerations.
6 months ago

Surajit

Surajit G. Hi Thomas, Thanks for your inputs - they really helped ! But, can I get some unbiased opinion from the guys in the additives field ? My simple question - "Will fine particle filters, in the range of 0.5 microns to 5.0 microns filter out the additives from lube oils ? Is it correct that most of these additives are soluble in oil and, those which are not, are of the sizes 0.05 microns or lesser ? "
6 months ago

Vergilio F. It's different a soluble system like two or more fully miscible liquids than another system like any small solid component dispersed in liquid. In this case of ZnDDP is a liquid component without solid component but a Zinc incorporated in any organic structure.
Vergilio

All adittives have an recommended temperature because can to occur a degradation of structure of ZnDDP that produce a separation of Zinc of the organic component. Moisture can to produce an partial hydrolysis. If this occur the Zinc will be filtered out of the system, but you would make a change oil.
6 months ago

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Sumit R. Hi all, Talking about NAS, Few oil companies claim NAS value around 5 at "the time of filling" and when sealed oil barrel is opened at site the NAS value varies from 7 to 9. Manufacturers claim it to be normal as NAS can change during transit, temp. change, weather change etc. through the seal. How true is this ?
6 months ago

Sumit

Evan Z. If you put clean fluid in an otherwise not-so-clean container, then yes, you will expect the particle count to increase. If the container is then stored and allow to breathe, the particle count will increase further. When the container is opened to collect the sample, it will increase some more.
Evan

How perceptible each of these changes may be depends on the severity and duration of each. Drums are rarely that clean, even when new and being used for the first time. They only get dirtier if they have been reused and/or allow to sit empty (especially metals drums, which will produce rust particles). They will likely get significantly dirtier if transferred from container to container (bulk to drum or tote). Drums/totes will breathe when the pressure changes, partly due to changes in air pressure, but mostly due to minute temperatures changes from day to night. Outdoor storage is especially bad, and all the worse when unsheltered. The environment that the drum/tote and sample bottle are opened in (even a certified clean sample bottle) will affect the particle count too. Can these all compound to a 4-16 fold increase in particles? It is possible, though it is much likelier they will only increase 2-4 fold. The claim of being a certain cleanliness "at the time of filling" is an easy claim to make, since it does not need to be proven. I would much rather be given an "at delivery" certification of cleanliness, than any claim about the fluid many, many steps before I take control of it.
6 months ago

Thomas H. Hi again, From an operational point of view, the cleanliness of the oil at the point of filling is more or less irrelevant if the Sytem is contaminated. Normal in-line spin on filters have a rating of 10micron, removing app. 10% of the particles. With referece to above clearances. This is hardly enough on most systems, regardles of it being hydraulic or otherwise. The cleanliness level of the oil will deteriorate if 10micron is all there is. Good practice is always to clean when filling (trough a filter) and have an filter on the system that actually cleans the system. Thus additives have a fighting chance to do what they are supposed to do instead of agglomorating (collect on the surface of particles/waterdroplets). I just love this thread :o) Thomas
6 months ago

Thomas

Rex

Rex B. To add what Thomas has said already...... We deal alot with the Bulk Storage of fluids. Where we have seen is that fluid users in the U.S. are now beginning to catch up with OEM specs on fluid cleanliness. This refers to all oils, (Hydraulic, Engine, Trans/Differential) and even Fuel. What makes it more interesting is that the oil manufacturers/distributors are now considered to be deliverying "dirty" product to customers because of the new OEM specs. What cleanliness was 20 years ago is nothing compared to today's requirements. We are asked on a much higher level to install systems that ensure cleanliness from the bulk delivery all the way to the end systems themselves. With this, the method used to store the bulk fluids is just as important as the filtration at the delivery and point of use. If you do not store your fluids correctly, the amount of money spent on filtration will be greatly increased.
6 months ago

Evan Z. Thomas, I feel I must clarify or correct your statement regarding filters, to prevent any misinterpretation.
Evan

My experience with common in-line spin-on filters would suggest that anywhere from 6 m to 40 m is seen, and the filter efficiency ranges from Beta=2 (nominal) to Beta=200. So for discussion sake, let's agree 10 m is fairly common, but I will disagree with your efficiency statement. To remove only 10% of the particles would suggest a Beta=1.1 (meaning for every 1.1

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Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils? | LinkedIn
particles larger than the filter rating that go in, only 1 particle escapes PER PASS). Most filters, when rated, are rated at least Beta=2 (nominal or 50%), (meaning for every 2 particles larger than the filter rating that go in, still on 1 escapes per pass). This efficiency compounds itself with subsequent passes. After the first pass, 50% of the particles larger than the rating will be removed. On the second pass, another 50% of the remaining, and so on. Assuming no particle generation during the time of measurement (otherwise we get pretty complex), and starting with a fluid cleanliness of NAS 7 (more than 32,000 particles 5-15 m per 100 ml of sample), and using a Beta=2 5 m filter (to address all particles being measured, for simplicity's sake), this is what we would see. After 1 pass the count should be reduced to 16,000. After 2 passes the count would be reduced to 8,000. After 3 passes the count would be reduced to 4,000. After 4 passes the count would be reduced to 2,000. After 5 passes the count would be reduced to 1,000. After 6 passes the count would be reduced to 500. Now assuming the same circumstances, except we change the filter to a Beta=200 (98.7%) 5 m filter, this is what we would see. After 1 pass the count would be reduced to 416. So if you've got the time to accomplish 6 passes, really the Beta=2 filter would suffice, when compared to the Beta=200. But if you are simply transferring and only get 1 pass, then there is great benefit to using a Beta=200 filter. I guess I just want you to see that 10% efficiency is lousy and not actually a realistic statement. Also, efficiency is generally talking about 1 pass, so even if you had a really poor and only10% efficient filter, it would simply take more passes through the filter to get the fluid clean. It does not refer to its overall efficiency, which is what your statement seemed to imply.
6 months ago

Thomas H. Hi all, My mistake!! I should have been more specific.


Thomas

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I was not referring to the Beta rate efficiency (converted to %). I was referring to the particle distribution in a normally contaminated system, where if you look at the distribution by size, app. 10% of the particles by numbers are larger than 10 micron. The remaining part (90%) have a size below 10 micron. This is also what is reflected in the ISO code class particle counts. So with that in mind (and not the Beta rate), if you install a nominal 10micron filter, you get 10% (at least single pass). As Evan points out, the filter might have capabilities going below 10micron with decreasing beta rates. Maybe. But there is a reason for the nominal rate given. And equally Evan is so correctly stating that the more times the lubricant is circulated, the more will be caught in the filter. But the filter will at some point reach the limitation for retaining particles. So for the sake of argument, lets say it can remove 50%. Then you still have a large number of small particles circulating the system. In the size range matching the dynamic clearances. And that those are the real culprits when talking wear and breaking the oilfilm, creating even more particles. Sorry for the confusion and my lack of info. Hope this clarifies my mindset and explains. For the those of you who might have benn confused by this small debate, I am sure Evan will agree with me now (I hope) :oD Oh, by the way, remember for each reduction in ISO code class, the number of particles (at 4, 6 & 14micron) are reduced by 50%. This for me is the most valuable info you should know about the 4406 code. All the best (and hope i survive a couple of days on the slopes), Thomas
6 months ago

Torbjrn S. Nice discussion everyone, like it when a thread also come up with some disagreements... giving more "aha" moments to readers. Now what about NAS as a standard... where should we use it? To me there are not many applications left where NAS is a "better tool" compared to ISO ... and please do feel free to disagree :-)
6 months ago

Torbjrn

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Evan Z. NAS 1638 is never going to be a better or worse tool, it simply applies where it was meant to by the OEM and should be disregarded elsewhere. So where does it apply? NAS 1638 became a standard in 1964 and was used extensively in the power generation industry and then adopted into other large-scale stationary applications. But it became inactive for new installations after May 30, 2001; thus giving us a window. Basically, installations between 1964 and 2001 that are still active today may adhere to this standard, barring any update from the manufacturer. If the OEM does not provide cleanliness targets in ISO 4406-speak or SAE AS4059speak, then you are left using NAS 1638. When the OEM does reference ISO or SAE, it doesn't mean it's better, although it is significantly more popular these days.
6 months ago

Evan

Evan Z. Thomas, thank you for the clarification. While I still won't completely agree with your 10% statement, I will offer a few details to further clarify. A nominal filter will move 50% of the particulate larger than its rating, per pass, period. Let's not complicate matters by discussing particulate below the filter's rating, as that is independent of its ratings. However, both Dr. Akira Sasaki and myself have performed studies concluding that upward of 96% (by weight) of the particles found in hydraulic fluids is sub-micron (below 1 micron). Other studies support that most of this particulate is not particularly harmful, as they are smaller than mechanical clearances, but they may interfere chemically and promote faster degradation of the fluid and its additives. I believe it is this latter statistic you are referring to, and therefore I can come to terms with your statement if this is what you meant. I just think when people read a statement about a percentage of particulate that is commonly reported as a numerical count, then they may equate that percentage to a physical count. That, of course would be incorrect, as diminishing size would cause an exponential increase in quantity (for example, 1% of the particulate by weight may equate to 99.9% of the total quantity of particles counted).
6 months ago

Evan

Torbjrn S. Guess so, Evan, but would be interesting to see if anyone can come to think of at least one application where NAS 1638 is a better choice for particle observation... NAS differ in its structure compared to ISO that can give advantages in some cases.
Torbjrn 6 months ago

Torbjrn S. The submicron particle range and distribution is an interesting area of filtration and cleanliness standards, at least a firm belief from my side. Main reason is in highly loaded contacts submicron particles must come into play friction wise, and friction is energy losses and that is the next big thing in hydraulics & lubrication.
Torbjrn 6 months ago

Evan Z. Torbjorn, Wondering if NAS is better than ISO is like asking if it is better to have the odometer on your vehicle report in miles or kilometres. My previous conjecture was that if your owner's manual recommends oil changes be done every 10,000 miles, then it is of little use to have your odometer report in kilometres. You bring up the point of the reporting being structured differently (NAS is a differential count, whereas ISO is a cumulative count). Than would be like the same owner's manual recommendation a particular service being done every third oil change versus simply stating it be done after 30,000 miles. Whether you go by incremental steps (differential counts) or simply by total mileage (cumulative counts), the service will be performed within the appropriate timeframe (or can at least be figured out, one from the other). I am just saying you can figure out a differential count by subtracting values in the ISO reporting format, or determine cumulative counts by adding up the NAS count values. Choosing one reporting format over another does not exclude any data, it is simply a matter of formatting. The minor difference that ISO starts at 4 microns, and NAS classifies slightly larger particles, is likely of little consequence to the overall picture of the fluid's cleanliness.
6 months ago

Evan

Torbjrn S. Evan, thanks for taking time to explain, appreciate this. I'm asking since I haven't confronted NAS 1638 much by work, but I'll give it some thought and see what

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comes up.
6 months ago

Can any one inform in detail about NAS value in hydraulic oils? | LinkedIn

Torbjrn

toby

toby T. Genlemen, I THINK WE ARE ALL FILTERED OUT BY NOW. The formulator using ZDDP both for hydraulic and engine purposes discovered its chemistry quite unique. The green effect of simply topping up with smaller amounts maintained the surface chemistry as a very effective antiwear film. These films are effectively only angstroms thick . Debris such as described by our filtration gurus deteriorate these surfaces remarkably quickly to destoy the protection hence the need for very high standards of cleanliness.Long live the filter but its the oil and additive which does the work. Toby or not toby
5 months ago

Alessandro

Alessandro P. Evan and Torbjorn, in my experience, maintenance people are often looking for a straight correlation or conversion formula between NAS and ISO codes, and much time is spent to explain them that such a correlation simply does not exist. However, I also see that ISO 4406 approach at particle contamination is a much more a modern approach, compared to that of NAS 1638. ISO 4406 is more informative, giving an idea of particle size distribution, compared to NAS and SAE which is a single-code classification. I also think that maintenance people like NAS and SAE because it is easier to evaulate and remember 1 code, compared to 3 codes. Finally, the biggest drawback of NAS classification is that it gives much importance to very large particles (say >40 microns in size), so that the final NAS code is often determined by the sporadic presence of few large particles, rather than by the significant and repeatable presence of small-size and medium-size particles. Thank you.
5 months ago

Pravin S. Dear all, Need your support, I have erected hydraulic piping and pickling / flushing completed. Need your opinion, at which stage/point would be better to collect oil sample to check NAS value? what pressure should be maintained during oil circulation.
Pravin 1 month ago

Pravin

Pravin S. Hi all, need your support, i just erected hydraulic oil piping, after pickling and flushing i started hyd. oil circulation for achieving NAS value up to 5 bypassing valve stand and cylinders. Need your opinion at which stage / point oil sample to be collect for offline NAS testing? or any procedure ?
1 month ago

Erdem U. http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/409/nas-1638 Hi, please examine the link. I hope, it will be usefull.
1 month ago Erdem

Farhan A. thanks
1 month ago Farhan

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