STATES

NORTHERN OF

BEFORE THE HO:N01WlLE A.. LEGGE, JtJDGE

UNITED OF AMERICA, )
)
PLAHITIFF,
PLAINTIFF, )
}
VB.
VS. )J\ CR 94-0276 CAL
)
CONNIE C. ARMSTRONG, ,.• ,
I )}
A. FOWLES, )
)
DEFENDANTS. )

SAJ.V
SAN FORNIA
27, 1997
PAGES 3441 - 3639

ATTORNEY
AVENUE
,CALIFORNIA
I CALIFORNIA 102

BY:
BY; GE()RG~E
GEORGE D,.
D. I ESQ.
RONALD
n.'•./L'''.M..I..IJ.J D. SMETANA,
D.
ASSISTANT UNITED STATES

CHESTER L. BROWN, ESQ.

2450 BROADWAY, SUITE SSD
550
SANTA MONICAl CALIFORNIA 90404

SOLOMON WOLLACK, ESQ.

STREET SUITE 1080
388 MARKET STREET, I

SAN I CALIFORNIA 111

CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGE:)

REPORTED BY: ~1 . YEOMANS t CSR

JAMES J.
OFFICIAL COURT
COuKT REPORTER,
REPORTER UBDC

COMPUTERIZED BY XSCRIBE

JAMES YEOMANS, OFFICIAL -863-5179

 3446
3446

1 THE COURT;
COURT: YES. COMPUCHECK
COMPUCHECK INVESTIGATION?
INVESTIGATION? IS
IS THAT
THAT

2 WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? YES.

YES. THEY
THEY FILED
FILED SOME
SOME STUFF
STUFF AND,
AND, II

3 GUESS, THEY GAVE IT JUST TO COUNSEL

COUNSEL FOR MR. ARMSTRONG
FOR MR. ARMSTRONG BECAUSE
BECAUSE II

4 DON'T THINK MR. FOWLES IS INVOLVED

INVOLVED IN
IN IT,
IT, AT
AT LEAST,
LEAST, FROM
FROM WHAT
WHAT II

5 SAW.

6 MR. SMETANA: THE QUOTE

QUOTE STATEMENTS
STATEMENTS OF THE DEFENDANT
OF TIrE DEFENDANT

7 THAT WE HAVE AND ANY POTENTIAL

POTENTIAL BRADY
BRADY THAT
THAT WE
WE HAVE
HAVE RELATE
RELATE ONLY
ONLY

8 TO MR. ARMSTRONG AND NOT TO

TO MR.
MR. FOWLES.
FOWLES. THOSE
THOSE HA.VE
HAVE BEEN
BEEN

9 MR. ARMSTRONG.
PROVIDED TO COUNSEL FOR MR. ARMSTRONG.

10 THE COURT: AS I SAID,

SAID, II GOT
GOT A
A GREAT
GREAT BIG
BIG BOX
BOX FRIDAY
FRIDAY

11 AFTERNOON FULL OF MATERIAL ON

ON THAT,
THAT, SO
SO WHAT
WHAT DO
DO YOU
YOU FOLKS
FOLKS WANT
WANT

12 TO DO?

13 MR. BROWN:
BROWN: LET'S TALK
TALK ABOUT
ABOUT THESE
THESE TAPES.
TAPES. II KNOW
KNOW --
,
....".1',
14 FIRST, I KNOW THE COURT IS PROBABLY
PROBABLY VERY
VERY CONCERNED,
CONCERNED, II KNOW
KNOW WE
WE

15 ARE. FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, YOUR

YOUR HONOR,
HONOR, IT'S
IT'S A
A MAJOR
MAJOR PROBLEM.
PROBLEM.

16 WE'VE JUST RECEIVED --

-- WE
WE HEARD
HEARD ON
ON FRIDAY,
FRIDAY, II BELIEVE,
BELIEVE,

17 AFTERNOON THAT THEY

THEY HAD FINALLY
FINALLY AND
AND II DON'T,
DON'T, I DON'T
DON'T BELIEVE
BELIEVE

18 IT'S MR. SMETANA OR MR.

MR. HATCHER
HATCHER OR
OR MR.
MR. HARDY'S
HARDY'S FAULT,
FAULT, BUT
BUT IT'S
IT'S

19 ONE GOVERNMENT AND WE ALL KNOW

KNOW HOW
HOW THOSE
THOSE THEORIES
THEORIES WORK,
WORK, IT'S
IT'S

20 THE ABOUT FBI IN DALLAS.

21 WHAT APPARENTLY HAS HAPPENED

HAPPENED HERE,
HERE, WHILE
WHILE MR.
MR. ARMSTRONG
ARMSTRONG

22
22 WAS CLEARLY REPRESENTED BY COUNSEL
COUNSEL AND
AND WHILE
WHILE THERE
THERE WAS,
WAS, II

23
23 BELIEVE, GRAND JURY GOING ON IN
IN THIS
THIS CASE,
CASE, MS.
MS. ROBINS
ROBINS WAS
WAS

24
24 ACTING AS AN INFORMANT FOR THE
THE FBI
FBI DOWN
DOWN IN
IN DALLAS.
DALLAS. IT
IT REALLY
REALLY

2S
25 IS HARD TO IMAGINE, WITH THE FACT
FACT THAT
THAT SHE
SHE WAS
WAS A
A GRAND
GRAND JURY
JURY

JAMES
JAMES YEOMANS,
YEOMANS, OFFICIAL
OFFICIAL REPORTER,
REPORTER, USDC,
USDC, 415-863-5179
415-863-5179
 3447
3447

1 HERE, THE
WITNESS OF THE GOVERNMENT HERE, THE FBI
FBI HERE
HERE IN
IN LOS
LOS ANGELES
ANGELES DID
DID

2 A NUMBER OF INTERVIEWS DOWN IN THE DALLAs

IN THE DALLAs AREA.
AREA.

3 MR. MURPHY WENT DOWN

DOWN THERE
THERE ON
ON OCCAS
OCCAS ION WE KNOW
ION WE KNOW FROM
FROM

4 MR. EVERETT WHO WAS FORMALLY WORKING

WORKING WITH
WITH THE
THE GOVERNMENT
GOVERNMENT

5 THAT - - ON ONE OCCASION, AT LEAST,

LEAST, THAT WERE SOME
THAT WERE SOME DALLAS
DALLAS AGENTS
AGENTS

6 THAT WORKED WITH MR.

MR. MURPHY
MURPHY WHEN
WHEN THEY WERE IN
THEY WERE IN DALLAS,
DALLAS, THAT
THAT THIS
THIS

7 INFORMATION WASN'T KNOWN, ALTHOUGH,

ALTHOUGH, IT'S
IT'S NOT
NOT REALLY
REALLY OUR
OUR PROBLEM
PROBLEM

8 WHETHER IT WAS COMMUNICATED TO

TO THE
THE SAN
SAN FRANCISCO
FRANCISCO --
--

9 THE COURT: IT IS YOUR

YOUR PROBLEM.
PROBLEM. WHAT
WHAT DO
DO YOU
YOU WANT
WANT TO
TO

10 DO ABOUT IT? WHAT DO YOU WANT

WANT TO
TO DO?
DO?

11 MR. BROWN: YOUR HONOR,

HONOR, WE'VE JUST RECEIVED
WE'VE JUST RECEIVED -- -- LET
LET ME
ME

12 TELL YOU WHAT'S HAPPENED. THE GOVERNMENT

THE GOVERNMENT -- -- APPARENTLY,
APPARENTLY,

13 THERE'S SOME -- 35 SOME TAPES

TAPES WITH 70 SOME
WITH 70 SOME HOURS
HOURS OF
OF INFORMATION
INFORMATION
-"
-II'
14 ON IT.

15 THE COURT: I'VE GOT

GOT A
A GREAT
GREAT BIG
BIG BOX,
BOX, LITERALLY
LITERALLY A
A BIG
BIG

16 BOX, OF MATERIAL THEY BROUGHT

BROUGHT IN
IN MY
MY OFFICE
OFFICE FRIDAY
FRIDAY AFTERNOON.
AFTERNOON.

17 MR. BROWN: ALL WITH

WITH SOUND
SOUND RECORDINGS
RECORDINGS ON
ON THEM.
THEM.

18 THE COURT: NOT ALL,

ALL, SUBSTANTIAL
SUBSTANTIAL QUANTITY
QUANTITY OF
OF PAPER
PAPER IN
IN

19 THERE. I'M NOT SURE QUITE WHAT

WHAT IT
IT IS.
IS. WHAT
WHAT II ATTEMPTED
ATTEMPTED TO
TO DO
DO

20 IS START WITH WHAT WAS OBVIOUSLY

OBVIOUSLY GREATEST
GREATEST INTEREST
INTEREST TO
TO YOU,
YOU, THAT
THAT

21 IS THE TAPES AND, I GUESS II THE

THE OTHER
OTHER STATEMENTS
STATEMENTS WHICH
WHICH HAD
HAD MR.
MR.

22 ARMSTRONG ON THEM, SO --
--

23
23 MR. BROWN: I'LL TELL
TELL YOU,
YOU, YOUR
YOUR HONOR,
HONOR, WE
WE WERE
WERE TOLD
TOLD

24 THAT THERE WERE THREE HOURS WORTH

WORTH OF
OF SOUND
SOUND RECORDINGS
RECORDINGS THAT
THAT

25
25 SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED HAMILTON
HAMILTON TAFT.
TAFT. THE
THE GOVERNMENT
GOVERNMENT

JAMES YEOMANS, OFFICIAL REPORTER,

REPORTER, USDC,
USDC, 415-863-5179
415-863-5179
 3448
3448

1 ION THAT THE THEIR'

THEIR'

2 THIS , INVOLVED MR.

MR.

3 ARMSTRONG BUT

4 THE COURT: I GUESS THAT'S A FAIR

5 MR • BROWN: THAT S II WE WERE AnVI SED. THESE

THESE

'6 lAM HONOR, AT LEAST SOME BRADY MATERIAL.

MATERIAL.

7 I SAYING I THINK THE GOVERNMENT

GOVERNMENT WOULD
WOULD

8 IN ONE OF THEIR MOTIONS THAT THEY FILED THIS MOTION

MOTION ON
ON

9 OF MIND. ASKING THAT WHATEVER INFORMATION

INFORMATION FROM
FROM

10 THESE TAPES INDICATES MR. ARMSTRONG'S DENIAL OF ANY

ANY WRONGDOING
WRONGDOING

11 AT HAMILTON TAFT NOT BE PERMITTED TO BE ADDUCED DURING

DURING THE
THE

12 COURSE OF THIS TRIAL.

13 THE COURT: PARDON ME A SECOND. I THINK I SEE

SEE MR.
MR.

14 SOLODOFF IN THE HALLWAY THERE.

MR. HATCHER, WOULD YOU TELL HIM THAT

THAT JUST TO
TO BE
BE ON
ON

TELEPHONE STANDBY AND IF WE NEED HIM WE WILL HIM A

A

17 TELEPHONE CALL. HE SHOULD BE AVAILABLE BY TELEPHONE THIS

THIS WEEK.
WEEK.

18 GO AHEAD.

19 MR. BROWN: HONOR, FOR US TO

20 ASSESS THIS, AND I HATE TO SAY THIS, IT'S THREE HOURS, WE

WE WERE
WERE

21 TOLD ABOUT ON FRIDAY. WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF --

--

22 WERE ARRIVING.

23 THE
THE COURT: DOUBT YOU HAVE NOT HAD
HAD TIME TO
TO LI
LISTEN
STEN

24 TO THE TAPES. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?

25 MR. BROWN: I REALLY HATE

HATE TO SAY
SAY THIS.
THIS. II THINK
THINK WE
WE

JAMES YEOMANS, OFFICIAL REPORTER, USDC/ 415-863-5179

415-863-5179
 3449
3449

1 TO TAKE
NEED AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW THESE AND/ IF WE NEED TO TAKE A
A

2 DAY JUST TO REVIEW TAPES, I THINK WE NEED TO DO IT. WE

WE

3 CAN 'T - - THE COURT - - I THINK THE COURT NEEDS TO REVIEW

REVIEW WHAT
WHAT

4 MATERIAL IT HAS. THIS DEFINITELY HAS BRADY MATERIAL

MATERIAL IN
IN IT.
IT.

5 THERB'S
THERE'S ALL KINDS OF MOTIONS, AS THE COURT
COURT KNOWS,
KNOWS,

6 INCLUDING MOTIONS FOR DISMISSAL THAT WE OUGHT TO PERHAPS

PERHAPS BE
BE

7 FILED REGARDING THIS SITUATION.

8 THERE/S MACIA PROBLEMS BECAUSE MR. ARMSTRONG

ARMSTRONG IS
IS

9 REPRESENTED BUT COUNSEL AT A TIME WHEN THE INVESTI

INVEST ON
ON

10 CLEARLY HAD FOCUSED ON HIM AND HE WAS A TARGET.

11 THERE'S A NUMBER OF OTHER REMEDIES, THE LEAST

LEAST OF
OF WHICH
WHICH

12 WOULD BE TERRI ROBINS SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED TO TESTIFY.

TESTIFY.

13 THE THE GOVERNMENT HAS

HAS ALREADY INDI
INDI THAT
THAT

14 STEP POSSIBLY AGAIN, WHAT DO YOU WANT

WANT TO
TO DO?
DO? II

15 MEAN, I JUST WHAT'S COULD COME OUT FOR

FOR

16 YOU? MAYBE FOR A MOTION TO DISMISS. II DON'T

DON'T KNOW
KNOW

17 WHETHER THEY HAVE MERIT OR NOT.

18 MR. BROWN: THAT WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE WHAT WE'RE

WE'RE LOOKING
LOOKING

19 FOR.

20 THE COURT: NOT GOING TO BE WANTING TO PUT MR.

21 ARMSTRONG'S OWN STATEMENTS IN THIS CASE. BECAUSE YOU'D

YOU'D BE
BE

22 DISCLOSING TO THE JURY THE FACT HE'S - OTHER INVESTIGATION

INVESTIGATION IN
IN

23 ANOTHER I WOOLDN'T
WOULDN'T THINK YOU'D WANT TO DO THAT.
THAT. YOUR
YOUR

24 CALL, BUT THAT'S A TACTICAL

25 MR. BROWN: WE WERE TOLD AND COURT WOULD

WOULD HAVE
HAVE TO
TO

, USDC, 415-863-5179
I 415-863-5179
 3450
3450

1 LOOK AT THE IN CAMERA MATERIAL.

2 THE COURT: DO I? I REALLY AM

AM CHOKING ON THAT.
THAT. IT'S
IT'S

3 HOURS AND HOURS OF SITTING AND LISTENING.

4 MR. BROWN: I KNOW.

5 THE COURT: I'VE NEVER HAD

HAD ANY REASON TO QUESTION
QUESTION THE
THE

6 GOVERNMENT'S GOOD FAITH WHEN THEY SAY HERE'S A TAPE THAT

THAT

7 SOMEBODY'S CONVERSATION IS ON AND

AND THESE TAPES DON'T HAVE
HAVE THAT
THAT

8 PERSON ON THE TAPE AT ALL. YOU KNOW, I GENERALLY TAKE

TAKE THE
THE

9 GOVERNMENT'S WORD ON THOSE THINGS. I'VE NEVER BEEN

BEEN MISLED
MISLED BY
BY

10 THE GOVERNMENT.

11 MR. BROWN: WE, YOUR HONOR, WITH ALL -- IN ALL

ALL CANDOR,
CANDOR,

12 WERE OFFERED THESE TAPES SOMETIME LATE FRIDAY AFTERNOON,

AFTERNOON,

13 MID-AFTERNOON, AND I SIMPLY ADVISED MR. SMETANA TO FAX

FAX OVER
OVER
. pI

14 THESE VARIOUS MOTIONS THAT THE COURT HAS . .

15 IN LOOKING AT THOSE MOTIONS AND COORDINATING

COORDINATING OUR
OUR

16 WITNESSES AND GETTING READY FOR TODAY AND THE COMPLETION

COMPLETION OF
OF

17 THAT, WE DID NOT HAVE TIME TO BE LISTENING AND EVALUATING

EVALUATING THREE
THREE

18 HOURS.

19 I HAVE WITNESSES HERE FROM OUT OF TOWN TODAY.

TODAY. TO
TO DO
DO

20 JUSTICE TO THIS INFORMATION, QUITE

QUITE FRANKLY, WE WOULD
WOULD NEED
NEED TO
TO

21 TAKE TODAY TO REVIEW THESE TAPES AND DETERMINE WHAT

WHAT THE
THE

22 APPROPRIATE RESPONSE THAT WE WOULD HAVE WI-TH REGARD TO

TO THIS
THIS

23 BRADY MATERIAL AND WHATEVER OTHER INFORMATION PERTAINS

PERTAINS TO
TO THIS
THIS

24
24 CASE. THESE TAPES HAVE THREE HOURS OF COMMENTS BY -- -- AND
AND

25 STATEMENTS BY THE DEFENDANT.

JAMES YEOMANS, OFFICIAL REPORTER, USDC, 415-863-5179

415-863-5179
 3451
3451

1 THE COURT: SUGGESTING YOU

SO YOU'RE SUGGESTING YOU NEED
NEED A
A DAY
DAY OFF
OFF

2 TODAY TO REVIEW TAPE?

3 MR. BROWN: YES, SIR.

4 THE THE PROBLEM

PROBLEM WITH
WITH THAT,
THAT, OF
OF COURSE,
COURSE, WE
WE

5 BROUGHT THE JURY IN.

6 MR. II THE NOW.

NOW. IS
IS IT
IT

7 POSS WELL, I'D RATHER GIVE

GIVE THEM A DAY
THEM A DAY OFF
OFF TOMORROW
TOMORROW AND
AND II

8 THEY'
THEY' ,, SO
SO BE
BE RUDE
RUDE

9 TO THEM SIMPLY SEND THEM HOME.

HOME.

10 I RATHER, IF YOU NEED A

A DAY
DAY OFF,
OFF, TO
TO TAKE
TAKE IT
IT OFF
OFF

11 TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY, BUT INTO

INTO

12 WHAT YOU'RE TO DO

II AND YOU'RE
YOU'RE WITH
WITH

14

15 MR.
MR. BROWN: WE CAN
CAN DO IT
IT TOMORROW.
TOMORROW. II UNDERSTAND
UNDERSTAND WHAT
WHAT

16 THE COURT IS SAYING. I THINK WE

WE LOOK
LOOK THESE
THESE AS
AS SOON
SOON

17 AS BECAUSE NOW WE'RE DEFENSE,

DEFENSE,

18 IT AND IT EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING.

19 COURT: I DON'T
DONIT SEE
SEE HOW.
HOW. II CAN'T
CAN'T

20 DENY YOU THE RIGHT TO DO IT.

21 MR. SMETANA: I HATE TO

TO SUGGEST
SUGGEST THIS
THIS AS
AS A
A TEMPEST
TEMPEST IN
IN A
A

22 TEAPOT. IF COUNSEL WILL LISTEN

LISTEN TO
TO THE
THE TAPES
TAPES HE'LL
HE'LL FIND
FIND THERE'S
THERE'S

23
23 VERY LITTLE OF SUBSTANCE, IF ANYTHING
ANYTHING AT
AT ALL,, NOTHING
NOTHING THAT
THAT

24
24 HASN'T BEEN SAID OR HEARD

25 MS. LEARY: AS TO MR. FOWLES

FOWLES II WOULD
WOULD MOVE
MOVE FOR
FOR THE
THE

JAMES YEOMANS, OFFICIAL REPORTER,

REPORTER, USDC,
USDC, 415-863
415-863 5179
5179
 3452

1 TAPES AND THE WRITTEN INFORMATION.

..
2 THE 'S NOTHING ON TO MR.

4 MS. LEARY: IF INVOLVED TAFT MR.

5 FOWLES/ THERE'S ABOUT HIM IT, THEN IT'S BRADY AS TO

6 MR.

7 THE THEN IF THAT'S TRUE THEN YOU'VE GOT THE

8 GOVERNMENT/S REPRESENTATION TO YOU MR. FOWLES NOT MENT IONED J

9 AND YOUR LISTENING TO TAPES CANJT DO ANY BETTER THAN THAT.

10 MS. LEARY: I UNDERSTAND I YOUR HONOR, BUT I ASK

II THE TAPES AND FOR THE - WHATEVER WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION EXISTS

12 SO THAT WE CAN INVESTIGATE.

13 MR. SABELLI: DOES DEPEND ON WHAT'S ON THE TAPES. THE

,.
14 STATEMENTS MADE ON THE TAPES HAVE TO DO WITH THE STRUCTURE AND

15 OVERFLOW WITHIN HAMILTON TAFT, DECISION MAKING, NOTHING

16 ABOUT MR. FOWLES. THEY MAY VERY WELL BE BRADY STATEMENTS. WE

17 DON'T KNOW WHAT STATEMENTS ARE. SIMPLY KNOWING MR. FOWLES

l8 ISN'T ON THERE ISN'T ENOUGH FOR

19 MR. SMETANA: AGAIN! MY EARLIER COMMENT REALLY MADE IN

20 GOOD , THERE REALLY IS NO DETAILED DESTRUCTION OF

21 THERE'S A PASSING MENTION HERE AND THERE OF

22 HAMILTON I SORT OFI I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING WRONG HAMILTON

23 TAFT, BUT THERE'S NO IN DEPTH PLANNING MEETING THEY DID A

24 DISCUSSION OF HAPPENED TWO EARLIER.

25 THE COURT: WHAT IS FORM OF THE MATERIAL THAT YOU

YEOMANS, CIAL REPORTER, I 415-863-5179