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kstar talk radio, november 15, 1995

Notes and Transcript of Interviews

With David Albert Whitmer
David: [continuing the coversation] I mentioned that to Mike Watson up at the Church Office Building and he pulled out a Teachings of the Prophet and read it right there and said that I dont
believe theres anyone here that knows that it actually says that.
Mike: Weve got two callers on. They must have dropped off. So what did Mike Watsonhe was just
confirming what youd said?
David: He was amazed that it was specifically for the keys to the patriarchal family and that I had been
in that patriarchal family until it reached a point to where he could then turn me over to the
Lord Jesus Christ, which is what he did about two years later.
Mike: What kind of step was that? Why would there be a change there? Was that like a progression for
David: Everything he had taught me or showed me or counseled me, was in a sense training me into
the patriarchal way of life. Once I was completely into it, then he took me to the Lord and
released his sealing to me and thats when the Lord then sealed me to His Son. And this would
have been about when? March 89.
Mike: Is this something you see that every person has to go through? Is that some kind of mandatory
thing youre talking about?
David: Id say there is only one way to the Father and that is by Jesus, the one who has the tokens in his
hand. Hes the one who introduced me to his Father. My testimony is about Jesus and His father
and how they can work in individual lives.
Caller: Challenged. Thats too sacred to talk about. Why are you discussing these things?
David: Because I was told to. Otherwise, I wouldnt.
Caller: Was that told by an angel? Who told you to share this?
David: Jesus Father himself told me that I needed to testify of the things that have happened with me.
Caller: I just wanted to get an idea of Davids feelings toward the Church at this point.
David: Ive always loved the Church. I was always in the Church until 1985. I dont have any problem
with the Church. I think that everything the Church is doing is good. Theres a purpose in everything. I think the purpose of the Church is to bring people to Christ or point people towards
Christ. I dont have any problem with the authority in the Church or what theyre doing.
Caller: He was excommunicated about 10 years ago?
David: Yes. It was June 1985.
Caller: Im wondering why he wouldnt want to be rebaptized.
David: Id be tickled to if the Lord had any reason or just told me to.
Caller: Im curious. If this is the Lords church on earth, why He wouldnt have him be a part of it in
that way?
David: The Church right now on the earth is a telestial church dealing in a telestial world. It functions

in the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchizedek priesthood. Patriarchal priesthood doesnt
function within a church, not a telestial one anyway. It functions within the Church of the Firstborn. Its authority comes from God; its administered to by God. Its dealing with the authority
that a father has in his family.

If home teachers or even a general authority comes to your home, you would preside as the
father. Its that authority that presides even if any high office of the Church comes to your home.
Youre functioning in your family, which is a higher organization than the Church is. When you
get into patriarchal priesthood, youre doing what your Heavenly Father, which is your patriarch, tells you to do with His authority. Its a complete different organization than the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The LDS church is designed to bring people who are outside
of the Kingdom of God, into the Kingdom of God and point them to Christ. But Jesus is still
functioning and Hes waiting to talk to anyone thats willing to listen.

Caller: What line of work?

David: I was a carpenter, working construction
Caller: I inquired of Mark E. Peterson in 1979 about the Koyle Dream Mine. She read the letter Mark
E Peterson had sent her in response. We strongly advise our members to have nothing to do
with that mine. We do not believe it was an ancient Nephite mine, nor do we believe that the
three Nephites came and guided Brother Koyle in the direction of the mine. For 50 years it has
never produced the gold that is indicated that it should, nor the platinum, nor the silver. You
know that Brother Koyle was excommunicated for insubordination under the direction of the
First Presidency. Going back into the days of Heber J. Grant, we have all been told to avoid
this situation which we believe to have been a spurious, lacking authenticity, counterfeit, false
Mike: I can tell you that there were several general authorities that did have stock in the mine. There
were a lot of supporters of John Koyle. There were also those who didnt want anything to do
with it. What you look for in anything like this is: What is God telling you to do? You do what
God tells you to do even if it goes contrary to what youve been taught.
David: Two Nephites showed me exactly what they had showed Bishop Koyle. A third Nephite showed
me what he had showed Bishop Koyle and thats something Bishop Koyle had never told anyone.
Mike: You never met Koyle?
David: No.
Caller: Hed heard that Spencer W. Kimball had anointed David. He wondered what year.
David: In1961 when he was an apostle and I was 19, Elder Kimball gave me a blessing in his office. My
dad got me the appointment. My dad was my bishop and Spencer Kimball was my Stake President. He was a family friend because my grandfather and Spencer grew up together.
Caller: Have you used the test in D&C 129?
David: Lots of times. It works.
David: Faith is the result of belief. You have to believe first and then you can exercise faith in it. What
you believe, you dont necessarily have to do, but with faith, you are doing somethingits like
an action to what you believe. If your belief is that church is what is going to save you then that
becomes true for you, but if your belief is that you need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,

then Jesus Christ becomes what you exercise your faith in. Its that faith that brings you to Jesus
through how God works in your life until you yourself meet him face to face. Everyone [in the
scriptures] testified of meeting with the Lord, walking and talking with Him as one man talks
with another. That takes faith to reach to that point. The Brother of Jared exercised faith and he
was able to see the Lord. But if your belief system is such that you dont need to see the Lord,
then the chances are that will be true for you. If your faith is in something else besides Jesus
then whatever that something else is, will become the most important thing in your life. That
will be what your faith is exercised in and that will become true for you.
Mike: Youre putting something in between you and God.
David: You always do. If it isnt God thats telling you what to do specifically within your life right
now, then what is it thats telling you what to do? If it isnt the Lord Jesus Christ, then what is it
youve got your faith in?
Mike: So when you started to exercise faith, to let go of all these other things, is that when you started
Daivd: One of the keys is when you finally ask the Lord, Whats keeping me from you? Then youre
shown that anything thats in your heart, anything that your desires and your heart is on other
than the Lord is whats keeping you from the Lord.
Mike: So are you saying that you dont need an organization to find the Lord?
David: Well, the Lord has talked to a lot of people that are not in organizations. But He has to some
that are. Once He talks to you and gets you on His program, going back to a school would be
a little like going back to kindergarten or elementary school. In a sense, youve graduated to
Mike: Joseph Smith said that a man should seek to have his calling and election made sure, which
basically is talking with the Lord face to face.
David: 24 hours a day. Speak to Him.
Mike: After that happens, whats your responsibility then?
David: To do whatever He tells you to do,
Mike: Does it matter whether its the Lord or the Father or whos taking to you?
David: Well, if the Lord is only going to tell you what His Fathers told Him to say, then its the same as
if the Father is saying it.
Mike: In the Book of Mormon, during the first 420 years, there is no organized religion or organization. Its patriarchal, I would say.
Caller: You were talking about anything getting in the way of your relationship with the Savior. I guess
your thought is that sometimes the Church is one of those things that might possibly get in the
way of a relationship with the Savior.
David: Only if thats more important to you than a relationship with the Lord.
Caller: Are you saying that you dont need any ordinations or organizations in order to return to the
David: Well, the organization is actually set up by our Heavenly Father and if you read D&C 76, it will
give you a whole lot of organization in the celestial kingdom where the Father presides and the
Father initiates. The Father has the ordinations done on a lot of different levels. They can do it

in the Church of Enoch level, they can do it on the Church of Christ level, they can do it on the
Church of the Firstborn level. And thats all organized and controlled by the Father. Everything
is done using His authority which is patriarchal.
Caller: In the Church of the First Born, do they need baptism or temple work?
David: Both. Ive done both in that organization.
Caller: Are they necessary in that Church of the First Born?
David: Everything that the Father says is necessary. If the Father doesnt say it, then its not. Its His
organization and Hes in charge.
Caller: So is the prophet of the LDS church, is he the Lords prophet for the Church of the Firstborn?
David: No, not the Church of the Firstborn. But he is on the Church of Christ level. Why would you
need a prophet to be in charge of your Heavenly Father when your Heavenly Father is in charge
of it?
Caller: So you dont think its necessary to be part of the Church of Jesus Christ because youve attained
to a higher level?
David: The LDS church isnt functioning in a celestial sphere. It isnt functioning in a celestial organization. Its functioning in a telestial world and its a telestial organization in that world. If it became a terrestrial organization then it would be functioning just like the city of Enoch is right
Caller: Is there a leader of the terrestrial organization on this earth right now?
David: Yes, His name is Jesus. Hes in charge and He ministers to the terrestrial kingdom. If youre
functioning in a terrestrial level, then this is the one thats ministering to you. If youre functioning at a telestial level, then its the Holy Ghost is ministering to you. If youre functioning
and actually living in a celestial level, then its your Heavenly Father who is ministering to you.
Caller: So as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we are members of the telestial organization, but
there is a higher organization that we could be a part of.
David: thats called the Church of Enoch and its explained to you in D&C 76.
Caller: But that means we dont have to be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
David: No. Its kind of like you dont need to be in kindergarten if youre in high school.
Caller: Do you need the ordinance of baptism in the Church of Enoch?
David: I was baptized and confirmed into the Church of Enoch. Joseph Smith Sr. is the one who confirmed me. Joseph Smith Jr. baptized me directly, in person as a resurrected being.
Mike: The earth is moving from a telestial existence to a terrestrial existence. If we dont focus on the
one who is the head of that terrestrial world
David: Youll be burned at His coming. Anyone living telestial law will be burned when Jesus comes.
Now is the time to decide which level you want to live.
Mike: Most people recognize that the terrestrial world is a translation state. Theres not a lot of people
around who know translated beings which would indicate that they are not living on a terrestrial level, let alone celestial. Basically, we are in the telestial level, struggling to get into at least
terrestrial and then celestial. But as you see it, what is the advantage of being here now in this
particular time frame?

David: Being here now, you can choose to live celestial law and to live a celestial life right now. In every
dispensation, the Lord has always offered the highest level first. And when anyone refuses the
highest level, then they are given a lower level.
Mike: Are you saying that during Joseph Smiths time, he was given the celestial level?
David: Yes. Absolutely.
Mike: Was he also given an opportunity for the terrestrial level?
David: When they wouldnt live the celestial level, then they were given the terrestrial and when they
wouldnt live that, they were given the telestial. Thats why they had to be driven out each time
so they could go down to a lower level.
Mike: You mean, they actually blended in better as they went down?
David: Right. Until they became where you couldnt tell between them and Babylon.
Caller: He thought David was wrong about the analogy of kindergarten and high school and that the
Lord is leading the LDS church. If youre not trying to be part of the LDS church then you need
to go back to Primary.
David: Christ is giving the prophet everything that he can get the people to live. The Lord is working
with everyone on whatever level they are on. And its their choice as to what level they want.
Caller: Joseph Smith saw angels, etc. but he didnt separate himself from the Church.
David: When Joseph met the Lord, he did what the Lord told him to do. If you meet the Lord, youll
do what he Lord tells you to do. If the church is already organized, then why would the Lord
have me or someone else go reorganize another church? He doesnt need to because the Lords
church is already functioning.
Caller: But Joseph didnt separate himself.
David: I didnt separate myself from the Church.
Caller: But youre placing yourself above the Church. I think this is the error you have. You have many
good ideas, but you miss the mark.
David: Who do you think the mark is if it isnt the Lord Jesus Christ?
Caller: Christ and the Church will help us.
David: Thats true. The Church helped me. That is the purpose of the Churchso you dont miss the
mark and the mark is Jesus himself, in person.
Caller: Asked about Davids excommunication and said that the ordinances David had received were
no more effect.
David: Thats true. The church ordinances no longer have effect.
Caller: Your baptism is null and void.
David: The baptism I received in the Church is null and void.
Caller: By the power of the priesthood.
David: By the power of the priesthood that the Church has. Yes.
Caller: You know, I go to church and I work real hard and I try my darndest to do my home teaching.
I try my darndest to go work at the welfare services whenever our stake is called to. I do these
things that Ive been told to do and it amazes me that you just have such a greater calling that

you dont have to do those type of things.

David: No, I didnt say that at all.
Caller: Do you do home teaching?
David: I do home teaching, yes.
Caller: Do you sustain
David: Yes.
Caller: Then why arent you a member of the Church?
David: If the Church hadnt excommunicated me, Id still be a member.
Caller: But youre not sustaining them.
David: But I did. I still do. Let me ask you a question. If the Lord Jesus Christ talked to you in person,
what would you do?
Caller: I believe I wouldnt be casting my pearls before the swine.
David: If Jesus told you to now testify of what hes done in your life, then what would you do?
Caller: He would never tell me to leave the Church.
David: He didnt tell me to leave the Church. My stake president did.
Caller: Hes called of God and hes over you.
David: Thats right.
Caller: He has the authority to do that.
David: He has authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Who do you think officiates
in the Church of Enoch and the Church of the First Born?
Caller: Ive never been taught that. Thats not important to my salvation.
David: Thats true. If thats what you believe, it wont be important to you if you dont believe it will be.
Caller: I dont know how to live a celestial life here. I have a hard enough time doing my home teaching and doing my lessons every week. I have my own children to raise I dont have time for
that other kind of stuff. Its amazing to me that you have that kind of time. Joseph Smith taught
people close to him. It blows me away that you are talking about these kinds of things on the
radio. The caller thought David ought to go to the stake president and get back into church and
then said, Ive never heard any prophet talk about the Church of Enoch.
David: Thats because they dont officiate in the Church of Enoch.
Caller: Im surprised that we would hear it from you and not a prophet.
David: If the prophet was in charge of the Church of Enoch, hed probably talk about it. But if hes not
in charge of the Church of Enoch, who is?
Caller: Youre not in charge of the Church of Enoch, Jesus Christ is.
David: Joseph Smith Jr. technically is.
Caller: The prophet
David: The prophet is doing what he can get the people to do.
Caller: Is he involved in the Church of Enoch as well?

David: I dont know. Personally, he could be. But see, its on a personal basis. If you went to the prophets home, he as the father would preside in that family. He wouldnt be using his prophet, seer
and revelator keys of the Church to function as a father in his family.
Caller: Do you have a family, sir?
David: Oh yes, Ive got nine children.
Caller: Are they active in the Church?
David: Not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Caller: Are they active in that church?
David: The Church of Enoch? Yes.
Caller: In other words, theyve had their calling and election?
David: Yes. You should seek 24-hours-a-day to have your calling and election made sure.
Caller: And they were able to make this decision themselves?
David: Oh, absolutely. Theyve had visitations, ministering of angels.
Caller: Theyve had the temple ordinances?
David: Absolutely.
Caller: What message has Christ asked you to give those who have ears to hear?
David The message is to believe in Him and seek this Jesus, the one thats going to lead you to the Father, because if you dont seek Him now, youre not going to be in the same process, getting into
the Millennium. Now is the time to seek this Jesus and to center on the Father. Now is the time
that the hearts of the children should be turning to their fathers in heaven and now is the time
that theyre focusing on you, their children. Now is the time to focus on God and find out what
God wants you to do in your life.
Caller: Why isnt this being taught? I understand that the Church is an organization and that the gospel
of Jesus Christ is eternal, but why isnt this being taught in the quorums? Why arent we sticking
with the essentials instead of worrying about
12/15/95David Whitmer had been on the show 11/15/95. We got quite a bit of response from that. He
consented to come back and share more of his insights.
Mike: We talked about your experiences with meeting the Lord and coming unto Him. Lets do a brief
synopsis of your story and then lets get into talking a little bit more of doctrinal information.
David: I was raised in the Mormon church. In 1985, I started receiving visions and revelations and
went through a series of experiences. One of the visions was three times in one night seeing the
destruction of Utah. Then I had an angel come and said that I was ready for re-baptism. My
two grandfathers had passed away and appeared to me and told me that I needed to continue
on my path and obtain the patriarchal priesthood and seal into my patriarchal family so they
could progress where they were at. Ive seen Moroni, Joseph Smith Jr. I was sealed into Joseph
Smith Sr.s patriarchal family. Over the next couple of years taught me and guided me and gave
me revelation and then introduced me to the Lord. I then became Jesus patriarchal son; He

became my patriarchal father. And that was in August of 88.

Mike: Are you aware of anybody else who has had that kind of experience or were you aware of anybody who had been put into the patriarchal family of either Joseph Smith Sr. or Jesus Christ
before it happened to you?
David: No. I didnt even know very much about the patriarchal priesthood. At the time, I was teaching
the high priests and 70s in my ward as the instructor. Id prepared a lesson and when I opened
my mouth, out came patriarchal priesthood and I taught them things that Id never heard before, never seen.
Mike: Is that what you were taught when you were being led by Joseph Smith Sr. and Jesus Christ?
David: Right. Everything they teach you is about patriarchal priesthood and the patriarchal order
which is coming into the family of Christ. The city of Enoch went into this patriarchal order.
Thats why they were able to obtain what they obtained as a city.
Mike: I had a question. Did you notice a difference in the way you prayed or your attitude about
prayer as these things started to happen? Was it more sincere? What started to kick this off?
David: It was actually was when I reached a stage of what they call a broken heart and contrite spirit.
Id gone through two-and-a-half years with my second son who had gotten spinal meningitis
He had it three times and pneumonia 13 times before hed passed away. In that time I went
through a quandary as to why there was a lack of faith. Faith is what heals and being raised in
the Church I thought that everyone had faith and everything you do is by faith but with all the
blessings that my son received he never got better. And so I started to wonder or question as to
what was faith, what was it about and how it actually functioned. Through this and the anguish
that I went through, I reached a stage they call a broken heart and contrite spirit. When that
happened thats when all these things started happening. Right in the beginning they taught
me that the true way to pray is in your heart. Dont appear to be praying to others. Pray with
uplifted hands. In my research I found that there were something like 12 places in the Journal
of Discourses where they mentioned praying or singing with uplifted hands. And so I started
to change the way I was doing things and I was more sincere, using faith, meaning I actually
believed I was talking to God and thats when all these things started happening.
Mike: So what would you give us as a definition of faith, based on your experience at that time?
David: Believing that God isnt something in the future, but God is here now. Believing that He listens
now, that Hes real. Its not something youre learning about. Its someone youre learning of
right now. Youre believing in things unseen and first you have to believe before you can receive
a witness. The Spirit can be waiting right there but until you believe or exercise faith there can
be no witness by the Spirit.
Mike: As you were saying that, I was thinking of the time when Christ talks about actually, I believe it
was in the area He was born and He talks about how He could do no miracles among them for
they had no faith. It appeared to me that it takes two parties to create enough faith for something to actually happen. The people had to have enough faith and of course, Christ had faith. It
was interesting that He could go to a place where He couldnt do any miracles.
David: When He was my father, He told me that even those that He did heal as soon as they started to
believe, for instance, a lame person, within a week or two, he would start to favor his leg again
because his belief system was that he did have a leg that was weaker than the other. As soon as
he started believing that again, it then returned to Him. So, even some of the people He healed,

actually returned to their former problem. And He says, He could have healed a lot more people if theyd have just exercised the slightest bit of faith.
Mike: What was that like while He was actually working with you? Was this a one on one, seeing with
your natural eyes?
David: Right.
Caller: You mentioned that you saw the destruction of Utah three times in a vision. What do you see as
a destiny for this church as a whole? How will the redemption of Zion take place for us? When
will we go back?
David: The destruction I saw was where Jesus says that Hes going to start by cleaning His house first.
Hes going to begin by cleaning his house, meaning those that have the most are now going
to go through a period that theyre going to have taken away from them everything that they
thought was going to save them, and if their focus isnt on Him, then everything theyve focused on will be destroyed. Thats what He showed me.
Caller: Will the Church have a role in the redemption of Zion?
David: It would be better to say that it would be done from Jesus fathers program of the patriarchal
order. This is what is going to redeem Zion. Part of the cleansing process is to clean out everything that isnt focused on Jesus and his Father.
Caller: Its always been my understanding that the Lamanites will redeem Zion and not us, but those of
us who are willing will be included.
David: On kind of an assist basis.
Caller: Do you see any kind of a group here going back to Jackson County?
David: It isnt a very large group. I talked to a shaman, a medicine man from the Sioux nation and one
of the things he told me was that (it was about four years ago when I talked to him) Jesus and
Enoch had appeared to his tribal council six times in the past four years, giving them instructions on the things they needed to get prepared so that they could go back and build New Jerusalem. So, theyre already receiving instructions, those that are going to be the prime movers
and shakers you might say.
Caller: Im wondering about those of us here who want to be a part of that, how we can be a part of
that. I have a question for you, Mike. In the Hopi scriptures there is a chapter on the levels of
light and that is written pretty much in first person with the I pronoun used quite a bit. I was
wondering who wrote that. Theres no reference that I could find.
Mike: When I had first come across that a gal from Idaho whoshe didnt wish to leave her name
she told me that Mormon was the one who dictated that information. I talked to Dave a little
bit about it and we had discussed this at length on a trip we took down to Lake Mead. It was
his opinion that it was probably the second of the three Nephites who was actually the one who
dictated it. Im not actually sure.
David: He could have been quoting Mormon.
Caller: It sounds like he may be making a prophecy. He talks about the Church progressing along until
its 160 years old (which is five years ago, 1990) and then a group beginning to come from the
Church and being persecuted by the Church. It sounds kind of like prophecy, but I wonder
when it was written.
Mike: I believe its modern. Its interesting because theres not any formal organization that Ive wit9

nessed coming out from the Church thats doing that. Its more of on a one-on-one individual
basis working directly with God. Dave, whats your opinion?
David: Thats exactly right. That is the group. Those that will focus on the Lord are then prepared.
Theyre the ones that will be taken out and go on into this patriarchal order or the Fathers program.
Mike: Theres really no one leading it. I think it indicates that in the levels of light. Theres no real leadership among this group.
David: Thats because Jesus is the leader.
Mike: Caller, did you see the article in the Ogden Standard Examiner this past conference about the
three men who appeared at Temple Square?
Caller: Yes, I did. Who were the three men?
David: They were men of God, doing just what they were told to do and nothing more.
Mike: The way that they talked and the information they gave definitely would classify them in my
book as men of God and of a very high level.
Caller: I didnt get too much on what they said.
Mike: Well it talked about them speaking in the Adamic language, doing only the will of the Father,
not condemning anybody. They werent condemning any church or organization. They were
just there to perform certain tasks and I believe they went to the Four Corners, didnt they?
David: They were sealing Temple Square for the return of the saints in seven years. And in the next
paragraph the newspaper referred to the Olympics in the year 2002, which is 7 years.
Caller: One last question. Any information as to when the destruction will start here in Utah?
David: The only thing Ive been told is that it will be now when it happens but they didnt say when
that would be They said, dont focus on it. If you focus on it, with the idea that if fear motivates
you in any aspect of your life, that fear will be what will then initiate the destruction in your
own life. You should be operating out of faith, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If you focus that
way, then there will be no fear.
Mike: If you look back at Alma and Amulek and those types, they had no fear. It didnt matter what
circumstances they were put in, they knew that God was going to protect them. The key now is
to get to know God well enough that you know hes going to protect you, or if you go, its OK.
Caller: We all have a responsibility to come unto Christ and enter the Millennium, but the earth itself
is doing the same thing. Were coming to a focal point here and there will be a time where if
you havent come unto Christ, there will be a force situation. When the earth goes through its
change, those who arent prepared wont be around.
David: Right. The earlier caller mentioned the levels of light. It explains the telestial, terrestrial and celestial. Those that are celestial will actually be prepared and theyll miss the destruction because
theyll be above sickness, disease, death and all those things. Those that are terrestrial will get to
experience the destruction but they will survive. Those that are telestial wont survive it.
Caller: You have the responsibility to choose one of those three levels before it starts or its going to
drag you through it.
Mike: I think thats what we saw happen to Noah. The earth went through a cleaning, it went through
its baptism of water and then its going to go through a baptism of fire, but how many survived

that particular event?

Caller: I have some concerns. Im a returned missionary Ive been taught from a young child than revelation is given according to the needs of the Church and given in the hierarchy that the Lord
has set up. Why would the Lord give someone revelation thats going to have an impact on the
whole church when that person is not in the leadership of the Church?
David: Everything that the Lord has taught me and everything that Ive received revelation-wise, is
strictly for me and my family. It relates to being the father of a family. If the president of the
Church came into your home, as a father, you would still preside and the authority that you
would use to preside over the president being in your home is that authority. And everything
concerning you and your stewardship which is your family you have the right and duty to go to
God and find out what to dothe same way Abraham did, the same way Moroni did, the same
way all of these prophets in the past did concerning their family.
Mike: I dont think anyone here is trying to guide the Church. Did you get that feeling from what we
were saying?
Caller: Not really. Im just trying to understand. I agree with leadership in the family. I guess if I had
this kind of experience it would probably be so sacred to me that Id have a hard time sitting on
the radio talking about it and before I did so, Id probably check first with the prophet to make
sure that its OK that Im teaching such a higher level doctrine and Id kind of want their stamp
of approval. Has the guest followed those steps?
David: When Jesus became my patriarchal father, the covenant that I made with Him at that time was
that I would obey Him in all things whatsoever He shall command me, consult with me, teach
me, guide me, everything that He did I obeyed. When He took me to his Fatherthe one we
call our Heavenly Fatherand turned me over to Him, I was then sealed to Him as his patriarchal son. He became my patriarchal father. And I made the same covenant with Him, that I
would obey Him. And when He tells me that I need to go testify of whats happened in my life
with His son, Jesus, and with Him, thats who I obey. I dont have to go get permission from
Caller: Did you actually touch Jesus Christ and feel a physical, resurrected being?
David: Many times. Almost daily for a little over a seven-month period when He was my father. Every
day, He would come and get me and take me places. He took me out to the Great Salt Lake and
He baptized me in the Great Salt Lake. He confirmed me into the Church of the First Born. He
told me that if I ever denied any of the things that Hes done with me, that He would then deny
me before the Father. When He took me to His Father and I became His Fathers Son, He told
me the same thing and that Im not to fear Im just supposed to testify. They tell me the exact
words I can speak. They dont tell me to add anything to it, but they do tell me dont leave anything out.
Caller: How would you respond if you got a following that came to you for answers rather than turning
to the scriptures and general authorities?
David: Ive told hundreds of people its their duty to go find God themselves and do what God tells
them to do. Its not my duty to tell you what you should be doing. Its not my duty to tell the
Church. Its what you and your families need to be doing.
Mike: People want to cling to someone who has had spiritual experiences because they may not have
had that in their own life and they want to follow someone who has.

Caller: Ive seen that and I agree with that. Ive seen people go inactive or leave the Church because
they base it on someone elses experience. Ive had some spiritual experiences, nothing like your
guest has had, but its been my experience that those things are to be kept sacred. They are for
me to ponder on, to share with my family at appropriate times when the spirit is strong. And
Ive had some bad experiences casting pearls before swine.
Mike: So did Alma, so did Paul but they were told to testify and so they did.
Caller: You watch the general authorities in general conference and they dont say, the other day when
I was talking to Christ. What they say is, I know that Christ lives. When they say that, I interpret that to mean that yes, they have been with Him, they have been instructed by Him and
they can bear testimony that they know. But to trivialize it by saying, Well, you know I was
with Him and touched Him, it goes against the sacredness of the whole thing in my opinion.
Mike: Actually, what youre going to find out is that Jesus Christ is a real, loving, kind being
David: Who is alive right now.
Mike: And sometimes we try to put this on a pedestal that becomes unreachable. When you do that,
youre creating a gap between you and Him that you need to overcome.
Caller: I remember reading his [Davids] paper back when he did some firesides and he mentioned
cycling therein. He said it was a can of worms and didnt want to get into it.
Mike: Are you talking about recycling? Along the line of reincarnation?
Caller: Along that line, but not the same.
David: I dont recall saying anything about recycling. Was it reincarnation or something like that?
Caller: Well, it was like that but a person has to go through life cycles to get to a point where he can
come to the Savior.
Mike: I do know which paper you are taking about. There were 5 people that got together one night
and recorded the conversation with Dave and that was a couple of years ago. That got transcribed into a 26-page document thats been passed all over the place. Dave, why dont you
make any comments you might have on recycling.
David: Any time Ive talked about humans, Ive said, This is the life that you need to prepare to meet
God. Right now. A lot of people Ive run into can remember past lives. What Ive found is that
theyre remembering being a guardian angel for someone else and all of their memories are
that persons life. Its not them living the life; it was them being a guardian angel or in charge of
someone elses life so that they could record it and thats where their memories are coming from
that Ive personally run into.
Caller: These people that have had experiences from past lives, could it be genetic coding or genetic
David: I wouldnt know. Ive never been taught anything about that.
Mike: Lets go back [to what we were talking about before]. Obviously, with anybody, in order to have
a visitation or manifestation, its going to take some effort on their part in actually believing. I
think the biggest problem most people have is they dont really believe that it can happen. And
they manifest that belief by it not happening.
David: If their belief is that it wont happen, then they do manifest that because then it comes true to
them. Whatever they believe becomes reality to them, so theyre actually creating with their

belief system. They actually start living what they believe.

Mike: So how do you discover the mysteries of godliness, then? What are they actually?
David: That Hes real. And when you be what your Heavenly Fathers reality of you is, then you become
is real.
Mike: You are real to God, then David: Thats right. You see, the part of you that He knows is real, is
usually just sitting there waiting because youre so busy trying to do what you want or trying to
make happen in your life and until you actually trust God and come into His own reality then
He just lets you do what you want to do with your life.
Mike: So, you actually change the program to where youre doing what He wants, as opposed to doing
what you want?
David: Its more like you actually exercise faith by trusting Him and then letting Him run your life is
really what faith is.
Mike: For a lot of people I think thats easy to say, but the reality of doing that is a whole other step.
What does a person actually do to make that happen? Give me an example of stepping out in
David: If you actually tell Him that you are willing to do anything He wants you to do and then actually do that and nothing else, He then takes over your life. When you reach that point, thats
when they actually take your prayer right to the Father and say, See, they have a list of prayers
and if the guardian angel says, Oh this is #141, they dont really have to send it on because
they just write down how many times youve said these types of prayers. But when you reach a
point where youre willing to trust God, then they run right there. And He says, OK, lets find
out if they really are. And theyll tell you things like Get out of your car and just walk away
and most of the time, theyll get a lot of arguments like, Yeah but Ive got a lot of things I need
to go do. Ive been on a lot of journeys a lot of places where He told me to go that didnt make
sense to me but I trusted Him. Ive been a lot of places with no money and Ive had people just
walk up and hand me money, or just take me and feed me. And in every case, I knew that it was
God who had had that happen to me because I was trusting Him. So its just a matter of actually being willing. Ive found that it hasnt got anything to do with worthiness, it has to do with
Mike: You talked about coming to a point where you had a broken heart and a contrite spirit. A lot of
people have experienced this very same thing of losing a child as you have, but they havent had
the experiences youve had starting at that point. There has to be a designation, at least in most
peoples minds. Ive had this experience, theyre saying, But Im not experiencing what you
have experienced.
David: My son died in 82 and it took me the years to get to the point where my realization that I
couldnt even save my son and if I cant save myself then how can I save my family and if I cant
save me or my family, why am I on a stake mission trying to save someone else? In those three
years, I went through all these dilemmas and when I had the broken heart and contrite spirit
I finally gave up trying to do it myself, trying to get God to do it. Anything like that. When I
finally said, Here I am.
Mike: Instead of trying to tie Gods hands into what you wanted done.
David: Raised in the Church, I had all these This is the way God is going to work with me. This is how
you get God to talk to you. You have to have so many tithing receipts and you have to have so

many slips from the temple, you have to help so many times at the stake farm and I realized
that when He talked to me it didnt have any relationship to any of those things. It merely was
when I gave up. Its like Peter getting out of the boateverything that he as a fisherman thought
was safety to him, he got out of the boat and was going to the Lord. When he started thinking
and realizing, What am I doing? Ive left everything that was safety to me, thats when he sank.
When he went down three times, he reached the point in the third time to say, Lord save me. I
cant save me now. You save me. So theres the broken heart and contrite spirit. Im not going
to put any more conditions on how you talk to me, when you talk to me, what you have me do
or anything. Just Here I am. Thats when they started talking to me.
Mike: So when the Lord says in the scriptures, that the only acceptable sacrifice is a broken heart and
a contrite spirit, He means exactly that.
David: Thats all it takes.
Mike: Why dont you go on with that story of Peter. Christ then does what?
David: What was safety to Peter, to show it in my own life, to me, the Church was safety. The Church
was like the boat. As long as I stayed in the boat I was going to be safe. To Peter, a fisherman,
he had a lot of friends and relatives he knew that if the boat went down, they went down and
they died. There wasnt savings. So to Peter, you stay in the boat or you drown. So when Peter
saw the Lord and focused on the Lord, the Lord has always said, Come unto me. When Peter
got out of the boat and headed for the Lord, he realized, Oh my gosh, Ive just left everything I
thought was going to save me.
David: See, his belief system was that if youre not in the boat, youre going to drown. Believing that,
he starts to drown, when he finally said, OK. I cant save me, so here, Lord, save me, the Lord
always will, always can, but He cant do it on your conditions. He only does it on His Fathers
conditions. In other words, the Father tells Him, Until the person does this, dont save them.
Dont put your hand out. Dont talk to them. And Jesus has never talked to anyone except his
Father told Him to go talk to them. Hes never saved anyone until the Father says. So the conditions are the Fathers not ours.
Mike: So then He reaches down, grabs hold of Peter.
David: And He lifts him back up on the water and Peter is now experiencing what its like to walk on
the water, but he does have his hand in the Lords. So what does the Lord do? He takes him
back over to the boat and puts him in it, but you cant get Peter to believe that the boat is his
safety and salvation. He knows the Lord is. You can use the boat, but the boat isnt your safety
and salvation anymore.
Mike: So I guess if we parallel that with our own lives, there are a whole bunch of things that are our
boat and our safety.
David: It can be family, it can be job, it can be retirement.
Keith: What youre saying is that anything you place between you and God is that boat of safety.
David: Absolutely.
Keith: So it could be the mighty buck, or anything in reality
Mike: Career, I can think of a list.
David: Everything the rich young man had.
Mike: As you look at the scriptures, it seems to me, every single person who wrote everything is basi14

cally how God was dealing with that individual and it comes back to the same issue of learning
to let go and step out and do whatever God told them to do.
David: Yes. Abraham paid his tithes to Melchizedek and Melchizedek was the head of the church. But
Abraham didnt go to Melchizedek to find out what to do with his family. The Lord walked and
talked with him and told him what to do with his family and all of his concerns.
Mike: How do you plug ordinances into this particular system, into developing faith in God? Where
do they fit? Most of us have been taught all our life that youve got this ordinance, that ordinance
David: Salvation is on these ordinances.
Mike: Jesus Christ himself was baptized. So how do they fit?
David: But who did Jesus go to to get baptized?
Mike: John
David: But see they had a font in the Jerusalem temple and they had high priests that could quote their
priesthood genealogy back to Moses, so why did He go to John? Because John was the only one
of them that could say, in fact when did John get his authority and who did he get it from?
Mike: He got it when he was in the womb, didnt he?
David: He received the Holy Ghost when yet in the womb and when he was eight days old, an angel, a
messenger from God came and gave him his authority.
Keith: The temple or the ordinances that you referred tobaptism or the rites that are performed in
the templeall those things are conditioned upon something, usually faith or righteousness
or they are a likeness or shadow of that which you can do in the future. In the scriptures it says
that if you listen to the Holy Ghost, he will take you to the Father (D&C 84) and the Father will
give unto you the covenant. Is He fulfilling the covenant you made in baptism?
David: Joseph Smith once said, You might as well baptize bags of sand if something doesnt change. If
youre still the same personin other words, baptizing your elements is the same as baptizing a
bag of sand. You can do it over and over. Its what those ordinancessee, they are in similitude
of something that does have to happen to you. Its true you need to be baptized by water and
thats in similitude of what actually has to happen to you. You need to be baptized in the light
of Christ, in the love of Christ and when every cell in your body is immersed in the light of
Christ, theres no more darkness in you, theres no more disposition to do evil. Now its actually
happened but until that happens, the baptism of water cant save you. Its to point you to, this is
whats got to happen to you.
Mike: The way it was told to me was that baptism was an outward sign.
Keith: Ive said this a million times on my mission. Its something that happens inwardly and when
you have that outward sign, its to remember the change that took place inwardly. So its actually
something there to remind you that through this spiritual experience, you were born again in
David: The sacrament reminds you of the covenants you made at baptism. That youll take upon yourself his name. The sacrament ordinance is the same type of a thing. It represents something that
literally has to happen to you. You need to sanctify what you take into your mouth so that it
will become your flesh. You need to sanctify what you drink so that it becomes your blood so
that those become sanctified. Thats the renewing of the body. And the spirit of you needs to be

in charge of that so that that can actually happen. So, thats another ordinance in your Heavenly
Fathers reality that needs to take place. Thats the renewing of your bodyovercoming sickness
and disease and death.
Mike: In your experience what kind of ordinances did you actually go through?
David: When the first angel came and said I was ready for rebaptism, I went to my bishop and told
him what the angel had said, and he actually called the temple to get me an appointment. They
said, We dont do that anymore. So then he called the stake president and asked him if we
could use the stake baptismal font. He checked and they said, We dont do that anymore. In
the discussion with the angel, I said, What do you mean by rebaptism? Ive been baptized. He
said, Youre ready now to be rebaptized in preparation to receiving further ordinances. Now
since that time, Ive been baptized right around 38 times in different situations by different people. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and confirmed in the Church
of Christ. I was baptized by Joseph Smith Jr. and it happened to be in the baptismal font of the
temple in the city of Enoch. And then he confirmed me into the Church of Enoch. Then I was
baptized in the Great Salt Lake by Jesus in person who then confirmed me into the Church of
the Firstborn. So all of these baptisms are in preparation to receiving further ordinances. Its a
cleansing process. They all go hand in hand. And thats how the Heavenly Fathers system operates.

Weve been talking about coming unto Christ and what it takes to do that. Which is probably
as important as it gets. Lets talk a little about priesthood. You talk about patriarchal priesthood,
theres also Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood. These are things we were brought up with
church-wise. How do they fit, Dave in your mind and what have you been told with regards to
Aaronic priesthood?

David: Aaronic priesthood is part of the schoolmaster that brings you to Christ. Its a make work program to get thestarting with 12 year old boysto learn how to serve. Anyone who has been
at a ward dinner knows that the girls already know how to serve. So the boys go into a program
where they learn how to serve. The Aaronic priesthood is one of doing physical things like preparing the sacrament and passing the sacrament. They go home teaching, they go to the stake
farm and the bishop is really the culmination of it. Now hes serving a whole ward. Hes trying
to take care of all their needstheir physical needsshelter, clothing, provides classes, ways of
teaching the gospel. Things like that. Thats the Aaronic level.
Mike: You mentioned that women really dont need that because they already know how to serve.
David: They already know how to serve, so they dont have to go through a training process to learn
that. Theyve already in a sense passed those programs. Its the natural man thats an enemy to
God that has to be taught how to serve.
Mike: That makes me feel good. Natural man has a tendency to do things if it benefits them. So, natural man has to be in the Aaronic priesthood program, saying, Look, youve got to come and
do this, but well give you credit. Well put down on the roll that you were here. Well put down
that you passed the sacrament. Theyre getting you in a program saying, Look, youve got to
do this for yourself so that you can get credit for it. Thats what the Aaronic priesthood really is.
Mike: Then youve got to strip that all away as you continue to progress to where youre getting credit
from God and not taking glory unto yourself. On my tithing receipts I always had my name on
David: So who got honor from man to man?

Mike: I probably did. Thats a hard thing to get out ofthe praise and honor of men, at least I think
in the beginning as you progress. But after a while, you get to the point you want to get rid of
them. I dont want anyone following me. Youre probably the same. OK. Melchizedek priesthood. Whats the purpose there?
David: It was originally called the priesthood after the order of the Son of God. They named it
Melchizedek so they wouldnt have to say the word, God that many times. Melchizedek is
where they focus on helping others. Instead of doing it for yourself, they start teaching you the
spiritual end of things.
Mike: Would you say that thats more then a terrestrial level?
David: Right. That would be terrestrial where your focus is on others. Youre focused, like John the
Beloved, how does this benefit others? Ill stay here and keep bringing more people to the Lord.
If your focus is on terrestrial you get into a program where everything you do benefits others.
Mike: So, patriarchal. How does that priesthood fit in?
David: Patriarch means father. So the patriarchal priesthood is the priesthood of the Father. Another
way they call it is the priesthood of the Ancient of Days. Thats the priesthood Adam had when
he was on the earth. That focus is on God the Father. There isnt a focus on anything except the
will of the Father. It doesnt matter what the will of the Father is for you, thats what you do. Examples of that would be Noah, receiving from God the instructions to build an ark. Noah didnt
care what other people thought of him. He didnt care even what his wife and children thought.
He just was doing it because God told him to.
Mike: He got a lot of persecution for it.
David: He got all of his neighbors, all of his ward members actually made fun of him. Heres a guy
building a boat 200 miles from the nearest water and he took a long time to build it and the
whole time they were saying, what a fool. Why are you doing this? God told him to. His focus
was on the will of the Father. Nothing else mattered. And thats really the celestial program. In
that book called Sacred Scriptures and the Levels of Light it actually describes all three levels
and the focus of the celestial is on doing only the will of the Father. Thats why Jesus was able to
say, Ive done nothing but what Ive seen my Father do. Ive said nothing but what my Father
has told me to say.
Mike: So when He says, You become one with me as I am one with the Father, Hes really saying.
David: Focus on the Father. That I amJesus is the way to the Father. You need to focus on him but
this is what the sealing power of Elijah is to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers, because the hearts of the fathers are turned now to the children.
Keith: So when the Pharisees asked the question, What is the great commandment? He gave the
highest level of that.
David: He actually gave all three levels. Celestial is to love God with all your heart, might, mind and
strength. Now if you do that, how much of your heart is left to love someone else? He says the
second is like unto it. If you view it from your Heavenly Fathers reality, something that is like
unto is like a mirror reflection. You can see you in the mirror and theres you. The reflection is
like unto the reality. So, the second is like unto it. In other words, its similar but its a different
level. It says the second is to love thy neighborthats terrestrial loveanother as yourself.
Then theres telestial love. So you can pick any one of the three that you choose and thats what
you focus on.

Mike: Thats interesting. You can probably see it in everybody you work around and in your own life
in everything that you do. You either focus on God, or focus on others or yourself.
David: In every dispensation, our Heavenly Father provided us with the highest celestial laws first. The
highest program was always provided first. When the people rejected it, then He would always
give lesser.
Mike: So where would like the law of tithing would be?
David: Well, who gets the honor and who gets the credit? Whose name do they put on it? And He says
if you get the honor/credit now among men, youre not going to get the credit in heaven.
Mike: So that would be telestial.
David: That would be telestial because who is it benefiting? Its benefiting the one who has his name on
the tithing receipt.
Mike: Then how would you bring tithing to a terrestrial level?
David: If you did it soley to help others with no return to yourself. You dont get credit. You dont get
any honor. Thats what He talks about when He says, If youre going to do it, do it so the right
hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing. So that even the person being helped doesnt
know it was you that helped them. Thats the terrestrial level and everything you do is to benefit
Mike: OK. Celestial then?
David: Celestial is really the law of consecration. All that you have, all that you ever will have, all that
you have had, you consecrate to the Lord for him to use in the building up of His kingdom. If
you do that, what have you got left? Nothing. Youre just now a steward of His And when your
perception changes to This is Gods, then you dont initiate something. You dont say, This is
what I want to do with it. You do what God wants you to do with it because Hes alive and He
can tell you what He wants. But He only gets involved when youre willing to put your trust and
faith in Him and come to Him through his Son Jesus Christ.
Mike: Again, were listening to Dave Whitmer. Im Mike Rigby and Im co-hosting with Keith Roberts
tonight. Lets talk a little bit here. Weve mentioned these different levels and actually you can
see any scripture, any ordinance, any blessing, anything happening on one of those three levels.
David: Right. The Lord Jesus, when He was my Father, He taught me that in all the scriptures, there are
15 levels of understanding. Theres 5 levels celestial, 5 levels terrestrial, and 5 levels telestial. And
whatever understanding you have is true on that level, but if you talk to someone who is on a
different level you can have a lively discussion and both of you think you are right, and you are,
just neither one understands the other ones level.
Caller: Im a little confused. When you were talking about baptism earlier, you said that you were
baptized by Joseph Smith Sr. into the Church of Christ and I wondered how that fit, because I
thought I was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ, so whats the difference?
David: The original church that Joseph Smith organized was called the Church of Christ. But when the
church changed the name to the Church of the Latter-day Saints, it ceased being the Church of
Christ. The main reason they changed it was because they needed to get the name Christ out of
the church name so they would stop being persecuted.
Mike: Wasnt Joseph Smith gone at the time?
David: Right. I think he was gone to Canada on a mission or something.

Mike: Caller, it went for a few years and in 1836, they recombined it back.
David: Thats when Jesus said, Im not going to have anything to do with the church because it hasnt
got my name in it, but if youll be known from now on as the Church of Jesus Christ you can
still be the Latter-day Saints if thats what you want, but if youll put my name in there, Ill start
having more to do with you. Actually, thats when He said the whole church was under condemnation also.
Caller: Now, youve really confused me. I guess Ill have to go back and read some more church history.
Mike: Do you remember where that is exactly where He talks about the whole church is under condemnation?
David: The best way to look at it is if you go back and get an original 1835 edition of the D&C. You can
get that at Deseret Bookstore or Sam Wellers. If you get an 1833 edition of the Book of Commandments, it will be published by under the Church of Christ. The original Book of Mormon
(1829) would be under the Church of Christ.
Caller: So, when Joseph Smith organized the church, what was it organized as then?
David: It was originally organized in 1829 as the Church of Christ according to the laws of God.
Caller: Is that in the D&C? Where did you find that out?
David: Actually, Hugh Nibley is the one who explained that to me and showed it to me. In 1829, the
church was organized according to the laws of God. In every dispensation, they always start
with the celestial program first. And in April 6, 1830, they in essence reorganized the church
according to the laws of the state of New York. Now, youve taken an organization that was set
up according to your Heavenly Fathers law and now youre saying, We want it reorganized
according to the laws of the state of New York. Between those two organizations which one do
you think will be the higher?
Caller: Well, of course, Gods law. But He commands us to obey the laws of the land so
David: Only if thats the peoples choice. See, the first choice was When you make a covenant, the
first covenant you always make with God is that youll obey God. If you choose now to obey
someone besides God, hell always let you, but it always takes you down to a lower level. Its
whatever your focus is on. If its on you, hell let you go to the telestial level. If your focus is on
others, hell let you go to the terrestrial. But if your focus is on God, hell always take you to the
celestial program.
Caller: Then, who wanted it organized according to the laws of DavidThe church members did.
Caller: The church members did.
Mike: Youll find, caller, if you were to go back into church history that there were like 75 or 90 people already baptized before the church was organized on April 6. They were baptized into the
Church of Christ.
Caller: Then they were rebaptized into the Church.
David: Into the church that was functioning according to the laws of the state of New York.
Caller: So, the church that was organized April 6, thats the date we quote as the organization of the
Church. What level is that at?
David: Its probably telestial. Lets rephrase this from how your Heavenly Father views it. He views it as
heres Babylon. Babylon is set up as a series of governments. If you want to go live according to

the laws of Babylon, do you think that Babylon is functioning in a telestial world or a terrestrial.
Caller: Telestial.
David: OK, the city of Enoch started functioning on a terrestrial level. Enoch went out and said, Here
I am. I came where you sent me. Now, what do you want me to do? The Lord had him start
building a city and He said, Everyone who comes, you let them help you. Enoch built up this
city. Now, the armies that came against Enoch werent what you call armies like Saddam Hussein coming and taking over Kuwait. They were first lets say, officials who came and said, Look,
the reason your paving your streets in gold is because youre not paying taxes to us. Youre not
submitting to our laws of the land. And Enoch said, Im not doing what you want me to do;
Im doing what God wants me to do. So now they would send marshals and say, Here we have
subpoenas, and they couldnt serve the subpoenas so now more of them come.
Caller: What do you mean they couldnt serve the subpoenas.
David: You cant have people who are living there in a sense out on the desert but its in your county,
its in your state, not live your laws, because if they wont submit to your authority, then youve
got to go straighten them out. If you cant straighten them out, then youre going to have a lot of
other people that are going to say, We dont have to do what you say either. Were going to go
do what God wants us to do. Thats when the army came against Enoch. Where those who said,
Look, youve got to now pay taxes to us. Youve got to submit to all our laws and all our regulations. In essence thats when the church in 1830 said, We want to do that. Now, if you say that
to your Heavenly Father, is He going to let you?
Mike: You mean its like saying I want a king and hell let you have it, if thats the level you want to go.
David: Hell always do that.
Mike: Caller, you mentioned baptism and you were asking was your baptism a telestial level of baptism? Is that the question?
Caller: I was confused because I thought I belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I didnt know how that was different from the Church of Christ, because I thought that was His
David: It depends on what level youre talking about.
Caller: But He has different levels of churches.
David: Well, sure. In Revelations, it talks about seven levels. John the Beloved talks about seven levels
of churches.
Caller: Then why are we taught that there is only one true church?
David: Thats a belief system. OK, if I were to ask you if there is one church. Then in D&C 76 when
they mention those who are celestial are focused on who? The Father is the one who presides
over them. They are members of the Church of Enoch and members of the Church of the Firstborn. What churches do you think those are?
Mike: Well, theyre different than the one were in
David: Because the Father is presiding over them. Who is presiding over your church?
Caller: Well, Jesus Christ, I believe.
David: Have you met him?
Caller: No

David: I have.
Caller: I thought Hes the head of this church.
David: If He was, would you see him at a General Conference?
Mike: Wed all hope so, wouldnt we?
David: Ive seen him preside at every meeting dealing with the Church of the First Born. Hes been
present at every one of them.
Caller: Well, we attend his temple.
David: Have you seen him there?
Caller: I havent, but I know hes been there. There have been instances recorded and it says the House
of the Lord right on it. Its His house. Thats what we are taught.
David: If you were in His house, dont you think thered be a lot of people that would testify of Him?
Caller: Youre saying Hes not there.
David: Lets ask this: If we were in a court of law and we had to testify of something, what could you
testify of whether He was there or not?
Caller: Well I know I havent seen Him at this point in my life. So, I couldnt testify that He was there,
but that doesnt mean He wasnt there.
David: Thats true. Lets find someone who has
Caller: OK. Well, I know Lorenzo Snow saw Him.
David: I believe that. Lorenzo Snow saw Him, so did Lorenzo Snow testify of that?
Caller: To his daughter he did.
David: Who else?
Caller: I dont know.
Mike: I think he actually told that story to a few people. It was his daughter.
Caller: Thats who through the tradition we hear her version, but I dont know who else.
Mike: I think what Dave is saying here is that when a person has that experience, and witnesses that,
they are a witness of what happened and they testify of that making them a testifier.
David: Like Paul.
Mike: Yes, Paul testified.
David: Heres Moroni. Hell be talking about the Gentiles and how much he loves his brethren. He says,
I have met this Jesus and I have walked and talked with him as one man talketh with another.
The reason he is telling you that is because he just got through saying, Im testifying to you and
youre blood is not going to be on my garments because Im telling you Ive walked and talked
with him as one man talketh with another and now Im telling you to seek this Jesus.
Caller: OK Well, thats what were taught too. Thats the whole purpose of the church I thought.
David: Did Abraham testify that he walked and talked with the Lord?
Caller: I cant remember.
David: Oh, yes he did. So did Enoch. Did the brother of Jared testify that he saw the Lord?

Caller: Yes, he did.

David: Now, in Ether 12:1720 there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong even before
Christ came who could not be kept from within the veil but truly saw with their eyes the things
which they had beheld with the eye of faith and they were glad. Weve seen that one of these
was the brother of Jared. Many people exercised this faith.
Caller: He was in a cloud
David: If thats where Jesus is, thats where youre going to meet him.
Mike: Face to face actually is quite a bit different.
David: OK. Lets go back to chapter 4. It starts out where Moroni is describing what the brother of
Jared saw. He actually met the Lord, personally, face to face. And he wrote it all down. And Moroni is now sealing up. Starting with verse 6, The Lord said unto me They shall go forth unto
the Gentiles. Were the Gentiles. The Gentiles are the ones this book was written for. It shall
not go forth (what?the sealed part of the gold plates describing what the brother of Jared
had seen) Shall not go forth to the Gentiles until the day they shall repent of their iniquity and
become clean before the Lord. In that day that they exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as
the brother of Jared did that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them,
the things which the brother of Jared saw. What do you think that would be? Himself.
Caller: Well, he saw the Lord.
David: Even to the unfolding of all my revelations saith Jesus Christ. Jesus is now going to tell you
who He is. If you just exercise faith, Ill show you everything the brother of Jared saw.
Caller: I assume it would been a lot like what Nephi saw.
David: Thats exactly why Nephi...
Caller: The beginning to the end.
David: I was shown exactly the same revelationbeginning to end in the exact same way. If someone
says, You dont need to meet the Lord, now heres the Lord saying that you do. In the next
verse (verse 8), He that will contend against the word of the Lord (what word?him telling you that you need to meet him) Let him be accursed and He that shall deny these things
let him be accursed for unto them will I show no greater things He that believeth these
things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my spirit. Why is He
saying spirit?
Caller: Its because its before He was born.
David: Sure. Now whats the very next part of that sentence? And he shall know and bear record.
What do you think Im doing right now? Im bearing record that Ive seen Him and that Ive
walked and talked with Him and I testify that and you need to. This is the time, in your probationary state right now, this is the time for you to prepare to meet God.
Caller: If you die without seeing Him, does that mean that you dont get to go to the celestial Kingdom?
David: Do you think there is some other way that you can get to the Father?
Caller: I dont know. Thats what we are taught.
David: If someone gives you a list of things to do and you do all of them, will that get you to the celestial kingdom or does Jesus say that I am the way to the Father. There is no way but by me.
What do you think that meansthat theres some other way youre going to get there? No. You

have to do it with him. Thats faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whats the first principle of the
gospel in your church?
Caller: Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
David: If you do that, what happens to you? Right here, He just described it.
Caller: There are many levels of faith. We are learning faith all the time.
David: This level is that you meet him face to face. When Ezra Taft Benson took over as president of
the Church, the first thing he said was that the whole church was under condemnation quoting
D&C and he said the whole church is still under condemnation. Why? Because they havent
done the covenants that are in the Book of Mormon. This is a covenant right here with Jesus.
Hes making a covenant with you. This is what you need to do. If you dont do it, youre not living this covenant and thats why the church is under condemnation. They went under condemnation when they said, We dont even want to be in a church called the Church of Christ. We
want to change it to the church of the latter-day saints. We want to get rid of the persecution.
Jesus said, If you come and follow me, theyll persecute you the same way they did me.
Caller: Why are we taught that we can get to the celestial kingdom by being members of this church
and by doing what were commanded to do? Its a step by step process.
David: Thats some other way. Thats trying to enter the celestial kingdom some other way, isnt it?
Mike: Have we helped you out, caller, with your questions?
Caller: It disturbs me.
David: Then you might as well change the first principle to faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Caller: But the Church teaches faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
David: They teach it, but who does it? It says right here, If you I will visit you with the manifestations of my spirit and he shall know and bear record. Lorenzo Snow bore record. Now you tell
me who else has.
Caller: Uhh
David: Theres a difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus and if youll turn to John
17:3 itll say, This is life eternal to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
sent. I know about Bill Clinton but I dont know him. I know Jesus. I know him personally. Ive
walked and talked with Him. Im telling you, Hed love to walk and talk with you. Draw near
unto Him and hell draw near unto you. Ask, knock and the door will be opened. Its really that
simple. But if you dont believe it, if you contend with His own words, saying this is what you
have to do, OK.

Lets go to another place. Go to 2 Nephi and lets find out what Hes going to tell you here. In
about 4 chapters He tells you three times the same steps. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by water and then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and the Holy
Ghost. Thats verse 17 of 2 Nephi 31. Then youre in this straight and narrow path which leads
to eternal life. Youve entered in by the gate. Youve done according to the commandments
of the Father and the Son. What are the commandments of the Father and Son? Faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost will do what
now? Jump to chapter 32. Lets start with verse 3. Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost,
wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, Ive said unto you feast upon the words

of Christ, for behold the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. Lets jump
to [verse] 5. For behold again I say unto you, if you will enter in by the way and receive the
Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things that you should do. Behold, this is the doctrine of
Christ and there will be no more doctrine given until after He shall manifest himself to you in
the flesh. And when He shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which He shall
say unto you shall ye observe to do. I did that. He manifested himself unto me in the flesh and
I saw him and walked and talked with him and everything He said to me, I observed to do.
Caller: So did He command you right away to start telling, testify of Him?
David: No, it was three years before He told me I had to, in a sense of typing up a testimony of two
pages and passing it around. But then He made me stand on a street corner in Portland, Oregon and pass it out to everybody that came along. But prior to that time, I told anybody that He
told me to tell.
Caller: Weve had many prophets and I know whereof all of them saying that they have testified of
Jesus that theyve seen the same kind of things.
David: Im not aware of any of them saying that. I went and talked to Bruce R. McConkie three times
and I asked him all three times, Have you ever met the Lord Jesus Christ? and he said, No.
I said, Do you know anybody that has? And he said, No. I said, How can you be a special
witness of Christ? And he said, In a telestial church, on a telestial level, if the Holy Ghost
testifies to me that Jesus is the Christ, then I can testify on a telestial level about Jesus. I cant
testify that I know him but I can testify that He lives. And he says, Look how many books Ive
written on the Messiah. But he says, I cant preach anything more than faith in the Lord Jesus
Christ, repentance, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost because everything else, you need to
get from the Holy Ghost. Thats the path to Jesus. Then Jesus is the path to the Father. Thats
what he told me.
Caller: Well, that doesnt give much people hope. If they die without seeing the Lord.
David: Sure it does. Lets turn to D&C 93 verse 1 and lets see how much hope you can have. Verily,
thus saith the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh
unto me and calleth on my name and obeyeth my voice and keepeth my commandments shall
see my face and know that I am.
Caller: What Im saying is that it still doesnt give much hope for a lot of people because most people
dont receive Christ in this life.
David: But who should you have hope in?
Caller: In Christ.
David: OK, the reason you dont feel much hope is because your hope is in something other than Him.
It takes faith in Him to get this to happen. Its not faith in something in an organization, its not
faith in mortal men, its faith in someone who overcame mortality who is resurrected. Thats
why the focus has to be on Him. You cant focus on someone who isnt resurrected. You cant
focus on someone who is going to die because they dont know the way. Jesus does. Jesus knows
the way to the Father. Theres no other way youre going to get there.
Caller: She pointed out that Mike and David are not members of the Church.
Mike: Told of his gratitude for the Church. Dave went on
David: Five stake missions.

Mike: So how many years were you on stake missions?

David: Probably 12 or 13, somewhere in there, but Im just guessing.
Mike: Keith, you went to Bolivia on your mission. The Church was wonderful to teach us how to grow
and develop and come unto Christ. It did its job.
David: Its being the schoolmaster to point people, guide people to Jesus.
Caller: Are you ministers? What do you do for work?
Mike: I would classify ourselves as full time laborers of God. That takes in a whole bunch of areas for
David: I frame houses. Im a carpenter at least 810 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week.
Caller: Are you with the Church of the First Born?
David: No. Jesus is the one who officiates and does everything with the Church of the First Born. He
doesnt assign anyone else to do anything on that.
Caller: There is a church called the Church of the First Born.
Mike: Were not affiliated with that.
Caller: Are you with the Church of Christ?
Mike: No. Im familiar with who you are talking about there.
David: Were not with any church organized by man.
Caller: And youre not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
David: I was excommunicated. All my experiences I had in 85 I reported to my bishop every week. He
agreed with most things. My stake president came over and talked with me in May of 85 and
he spent five hours in my home and he said that when he was in seminary, his seminary teacher
had taught him that all these things that had been happening to me needed to happen to him in
this life. He needed to have the ministering of angels. He needed to have communion with the
Church of the First Born and with the righteous and just. He needed these things to be happening to him in this life. Thats what he believed when his seminary teacher taught him.
Caller: Are you a convert?
David: I was born in the Church. I was raised in the Church. I grew up in Safford, AZ. Spencer Kimball was stake president when I was born. I graduated from seminary.
Caller: Where did Christ appear to you and are you a part of a polygamy group?
David: No. Ive never been a part of a polygamy group. I do have a wife and nine childreneight of
them are living. Ive still got 2 of my children at home. The others are married. I have 14 grandchildren.
Caller: Have you ever been to the temple?
David: I was an officiator in the temple for two-and-a-half years. Ive been a veil worker in 11 of the
Mormon temples.
Caller: Did the stake president explain why this happened to you?
David: He had been on a full-time mission and he had got married in the temple and within a few
months he was put in the bishopric. Five years later, he was then made the bishop and six years
after that, he was released as a bishop and put in as the first counselor in the stake presidency.

He was that for 11 years and then he was made the stake president two months prior to him
sitting there and talking to me. He said that hes been a seminary teacher for 18 years and that
none of these things had happened to him, therefore, they cant be happening to me. He said,
Im going to excommunicate you so that no one will listen to you and no one will follow you.
Caller: She asked David if he had used the test to detect a minister of Satan. She said, Thats not in
your testimony, therefore, youve been deceived.
David: The first vision I had was Jesus taking me by the hand and showing me in three visions that
night, the exact same thing. Thats Him physically taking me by my hand.
Caller: Well, I dont think that that happened, sir. Youve been deceived.
Caller: You were talking about how we needed to have the perfect faith. What would your definition of
faith be?
David: Perfect faith is in Jesus Christ. Jesus is saying that if you had faith in Him, He would reveal all
the manifestations. That was in Ether 4.
Caller: If you have faith in Jesus Christ, you could not have seen Him.
David: Until you exercise faith in Him, youre not going to be able to see Him.
Caller: From what youve said here, youre not working off faith any more.
David: Thats true.
Caller: Youre working off knowledge.
David: What we were discussing was what it takes to be able to meet Him in the first place and what it
takes is faith.
Caller: Ive had a lot of experiences, not quite of that scope or magnitude, but frankly, I find what
youre doing a little crass. Unless youre going to come out and proclaim yourself a prophet of
Jesus Christ, what youre doing is wrong. People have seen things, heard things, Ill just quote
oneLuke 2:19: Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart. She didnt get on
a radio show and talk about what she had seen.
David: But if the Lord had told her to testify of Him, what do you think she would have done? If Jesus
specifically told her to testify to everyone and told her specifically how to do it, what do you
think Mary would do?
Mike: When Stephen was being stoned, he said, I saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. So what is he
Caller: Hes testifying of Jesus Christ. Im not saying that people have not testified of Christ throughout
the ages. But when people testify of a sure knowledge of Jesus Christ, they are more than just a
person walking around and talking They are declaring themselves. I dont think you can find an
example in the scriptures where someone has declared seeing Jesus Christ who is not a prophet.
David: What is your definition? Joseph Smiths definition of prophet is anyone who has a testimony of
Caller: Thats not what he said. He said the definition of a prophet is one who has a sure knowledge of
Jesus Christ, not a testimony.
David: No, he said the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy