@petertownsend7to@therevert Thanksfortakingthetimetorespond. Youareoneofthe veryfewMuslimswho haveat leastattemptedtorespondtothesechargeswithmorethaninsultsandclaimsthatIama haterandIslamophobesoIcertainlywanttogiveyoucreditforthat.Allowmetointeract withyourreplies.Ihaveto,however,beforeIgoontakeissuewithyourstatementatthe endthatItargetvulnerableconvertswhomightbeunsureoftheirfaith.Theoriginalpost happenedinthecontextofadiscussionwithsomeonewhoIwouldhavenohesitationto describe as a scholar of Islam.

. He eventually found my questions too uncomfortable and difficultanddecidedtowalkaway. (Myresponsestoyouredcommentsareallinthisshadeofdarkblue) Myrepliesarebeloweachofyourclaims,inred. Just a little reminder of your books own test for itself: Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much contradiction.[4:82] 1)TheQuranisriddledwithcontradictions.Youhavetriedtointeractwithsomeofthem butinalmosteverycaseitcamedowntospecialpleadinganddenyingtheplainmeaningof thetext.IftherewereonlyoneortwosuchcasesintheQuranImighthavebeenwillingto grant the massaging of individual texts in order to harmonise it with other texts that contradicteditelsewhereintheQuran.Howeverthefactthatyouhavetodothisinliterally hundreds of cases means that the evidence for it being a book without contradiction is exceedinglyflimsy.IrepeatwhatIsaidsooften.Intextualanalysisyoucannotstartwitha predetermined meaning and then attempt to force an individual text to adhere to the meaning.Youhavetogowheretheevidenceleads.Andinsomanycasestheevidenceleads to exactly the opposite place where you wanted it to go. Coming up with appeals to authority, special pleading, spurious appeals the context and claims that individual texts have been mistranslated really just shows that the numberone guiding principle in your interpretationsisnotwhatthetextsthemselvessaybutaverydeepdesiretomakethem saysomethingelseinordertofitinwiththenotionthattheQurancannothaveerrors.Yet contradictionsliketheseremain:

*Allahcreatedmanfrom:Blood(96:12),Water(25:54),Clay(15:26),Dust(30:20),Nothing (3:47) NowhereisitclaimedthatAllahisonlycapableof"onetype"ofcreation,sothisishardlya contradiction.Ifitis,itisacontradictionof...whatexactly?EXAMPLE:ItisbelievedbyJews, ChristiansandMuslimsthatAdamwasfashionedoutofclay(Creationtype#1)andEvewas created from one of Adam's ribs (Creation type #2). Jesus was created without a father (Creationtype#3).Icangoon.ThebeliefhereisthatAllahIScapableofallthosethings andwithoutlimits. Ithinkwecansafelysaythatyoumissedthepointinyourabovereferences.Areyoutaking "man"and"mankind"inEnglishtomeanthesamethingwhilstusingtheArabicreferenceto said words? Therein is your mistake! Arabic is far, far more eloquent than English. The Englishword"LOVE"hassomanyClassicalArabicequivalents.So,Isuggestthatyouhave perhaps interpreted the above references in their incorrect contexts to justify your arguments. Firstly your claim that Arabic is more complex and eloquent than English is patently ridiculous. The Quran contains about 18 000 distinct words, English has a documented vocabulary of about 250 000 words. There is, therefore, nothing that you can express in classicalArabicthatyoucannotalsoexpressinEnglish.ItisalsointerestingthatIonlyever hearthisobjectionraisedwhenIslamortheQuraniscriticised,neverwhenitispreached. The Quran seems to be the pinnacle of clarity in English when preached but the most impenetrable document around when Islam is questioned. However to humour you and demonstratethataretreatintoArabicissimplyawayofgettingcriticsoffthescentIwill workprimarilyfromtheArabictextwherenecessary. Secondly your reference to the Christian and Jewish beliefs is not applicable since we are discussing the Quran and not the Tanakh (Old Testament) or Christian New Testament. ProvingsomethingabouttheTanakh(a)doesnotautomaticallyprovetheQuran(b)tobe correct.Howeversinceyouraisedit:IntheTanakhcreationisclearlypresentedasastage by stage process in the form of a narrative. This is, however, not how these verses are presented in the Quran. They are presented in the form of emphatic standalone statements.HowwouldaBedouinlisteningtoMohammadhaveinterpretedtheseversesif
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he heard them recited at the different times when they were revealed? As speaking of stages? How can this be if there are no clear references to a stagebystage process of creationandtheverseswererevealedyearsapart?Theonlythingthatleadsyoutospeak ofstagesisyourneedtoprovethattheQuranhasnocontradictions.Nothinginthetext, context or the message to the original hearers suggests such an interpretation. You are thereforesimplyperformingeisegesis(carryingyourowninterpretationintothetext).This isnotdriveninanywaybytheindividualpassageitself.Theonlyreasonyouhavetodothis isbecauseyouhavetoharmoniseitwithotherpassages!Nowrepeatthisprocesshundreds of times (denying the plain meaning of passages in order to achieve harmonisation with others)andyouseewhytheclaimofnocontradictionsissoutterlyabsurd. Nowletslookatyouractualclaims.WhodidAllahcreateusingthedifferentmaterials?

Whoistheyouthathecreatedin30:20?Wellyoucanworkthatoutfromthecontextbut incaseyouwantclarityitis:

Youcanseefromthisthat,inspiteofyourclaimaboutthedeepcomplexitiesofArabic,two relatively simple root forms are used and they can be used to convey the same meaning: Man or humanity. These references are widely separated in time, place (Mecca and
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Medina)andpositionintheQuran.Noreferenceatallismadetoastageoraprocessand thematerialsusedinthecreationofthisparticularspeciesdirectlycontradicteachother. All of the above is complicated even further by the fact that the Quran also states that Allahsmethodofcreationissimplytosaybeanditis(3:47). Theylosttheirownsouls,whowillnotbelieve(6:12)*(Allah)causestostraywhomHewills (16:93) Contradictswithwhat? Sorry this was a formatting error by Twitlonger. The correct contradiction is above. 6:12 makesitclearthatthosewhogotohellhaveonlythemselvestoblame.

Yet16:93makesitclearthatAllahcausessomepeopletostray:

The matter is further complicated by 10:100 that states clearly that no soul can believe unless Allah gives permission. This is confirmed by 6:25 where he owns up to actively preventingpeoplefrombelieving.

 Yet he still sends people to hell and tells them that they have lost themselves. A deep, irreconcilableandtroublingcontradiction. * Will intercession be possible at the Day of Judgment? No (2:122123, 254) Yes (20:109) 2:122123doesnotsayno.Itsaysnointercessionwillbenefitit.Comparing2:254with 20:109hardlycallstomindacontradictionwhenreadincontext. Herearethefullverses:

This verse is categorical that no intercession will be accepted. Note the strong double negative:notacceptedandany.Furthermorewhywouldintercessionbeofferedifthere isnottheexpectationthatitwillbenefitthepersonbeingintercededfor?Thatisthevery purposeofintercession.Tosaythatitwillnotbenefitisthereforeaclearstatementthatit willnotbeaccepted. When it comes to the verse that contradicts this, the word benefit is again used: Thus nullifyingyourentireargument.Hereitis:

Soitisveryclearthatfarfromstatingthatpeoplewillnotbenefitfromtheintercessionit leavesthepossibilityopen.Aclearanirreconcilablecontradiction. *DoesAllahcommandtodoevil?No(7:28)Yes(17:16) Youinterpretationiscorrecton7:28butlackingon17:16.Hereiswhat17:16says: Sahih International And when We intend to destroy a city, We command its affluent but they defiantly disobey therein; so the word comes into effect upon it, and We destroy it with[complete]destruction. I cannot see in that verse any reference to "Allah commanding evil", regardless of the Englishtranslation. The idea in 17:16 is that it can be translated to state that it is Allah who commands the disobedience of the affluent in the city so that they can display their foul deeds and the word can be proved true against them. See for example: YUSUFALI:When We decide to destroyapopulation,We(first)sendadefiniteordertothoseamongthemwhoaregiven thegoodthingsofthislifeandyettransgress;sothatthewordisprovedtrueagainstthem: then(itis)Wedestroythemutterly.Allahwouldinthissensebethedirectcommanderof evil. Besides,thisisnottheonlyversewhereAllahispaintedasthesourceofevil.InQuran4:78 theprophetisinoneofhismanystickysituationsbecausethepeoplethinkthattheevilthat hasbefallenthemisduetohis(Muhammads)presenceamongthem.Thankfullyaswithhis
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justintimerevelationsAllahstepsintosavetheday.Hetellsthepeoplenotonlytosay that good things come from Allah but they must also be taught that evil is from him All thingsarefromAllah.Againaclearcontradictionwiththeversesaboveaswellaswiththe verynextverse!(4:79)wherepeoplearetaughttosaythatevilcomesfromthemselves!If you now want to exclude this from Allahs actions it contradicts thestatement All things arefromAllah.Whateverwayyouturnyouarestuck.

*Canslanderofchastewomenbeforgiven?Yes(24:45)No(24:23) YusufAli(24:4)Andthosewholaunchachargeagainstchastewomen,andproducenotfour witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidenceeverafter:forsuchmenarewickedtransgressors; (24:5)Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is OftForgiving, MostMerciful. YusufAli(24:23)Thosewhoslanderchastewomen,indiscreetbutbelieving,arecursedin thislifeandintheHereafter:forthemisagrievousPenalty, Again,IcannotfindanyreferencetoNOTforgivingtheslandererofchastewomen.Clearly, yourexchangetheword"cursed"forthewords"donotforgive"inanattempttogivefalse weighttoyourclaim.
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Iamafraidthatitisyouwhoaretwistinglanguagetosuityourposition.Itisclearthatitis notonlypeoplewhoforgiveinthefirstinstancebutAllahaswell(Allahisoftforgiving,most merciful). If we then turn to the second verse the word curse quite obviously applies to Allah(itishewhowillmeteoutthegrievouspenalty)nothumanbeings.Sothefirstverse saysthathewillinsomecases(whererepentanceoccurs)forgivetheslandererswhilethe secondcategoricallydeclaresallsuchpersonseternallydamned. *Whatwillunbelieverseatinhell?NofoodexceptDhari(apoisonousplant)(88:6)Nofood exceptfromthedischargeofwounds(69:36) If you read those two references in context, I disagree with your claim that it is a contradiction.Ref.theaboveonCreationandalsorefertotheQuranicreferencesthatthere are7heavensfordifferentrankingsouls.Puttingthatintoperspective,canyoukindlysite thesourceoftheclaimthattherewillonlybeonetypeofpunishmentinHell?Andindeed, thatthereisonlyonetypeofHell?Considerthefollowingpunishmentfordisbelievers. SahihInternational(88:23)However,hewhoturnsawayanddisbelieves(88:24)ThenAllah willpunishhimwiththegreatestpunishment. Thepunishmentmetedoutissoseverethatitisnotevendescribed.Theirsisaveryspecial type of punishment, indicating a third type of punishment. Hardly a contradiction. Since whendidvarietybecomecontradiction? OkayLetlookatthetextsindetailandincontext: 69:36DescribestheDayofJudgementandthesendingofsomepeopletohell. Whowillgo?Thosewhohavebeengiventheirrecordsintheirlefthands(69:25)Thisrefers toallthosewhowillgotohellonthedayofjudgementsincethosewhowillgotoparadise willbegiventheirrecordsintheirrighthands(69:19) Wherewilltheygo?Intothehellfire(ljama) Whatwilltheyeat?Nofoodexcept(waltamunill)fromthethedischargeofwounds (ghis'lnin).
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88:1 Whowillgo?Literallysomefaces(wujuhun)i.e.ametaphorforthosewhowillbebrought low. These people would be included in those who received their records with their left hands(i.e.partofthegeneralpopulationofhell) Wherewilltheygo?Theywillburninafire(naran). Whatwilltheyeat?Nofoodexcept(laysalahumtamunill)Dari(abitterthornyplant) You are welcome to argue that the second group constitute a special class in a special sectionofhell(althoughthetextdoesnotindicatethis)buttheyarestillpartofthegeneral population(thosewhoreceivedtheirrecordwiththeirlefthands)whoaresupposedtoeat nothingexceptpus.Aclearanirreconcilablecontradiction. Let me just complicate matters a bit further for you. A third menu item is on offer in the QurantheleavesofthetreeofZaqqum(37:63).Itgrowsatthebottomofhellfire(exactly thesamegeneralwordthatisusedin69:31)theplacewhereallthosewhowhoreceived the records with their left hands (i.e. every single person who will be condemned on judgmentday)aresupposedtogoandwheretheyaresupposedtoeatnothingbutpus.Yet here they are offered something else! You are so quick to point me to context, but here context (i.e. the way in which judgement will occur: left hand/right hand) actually shows howverywrongyouareintryingtoassertthatthisreferstodifferentsectionsofhell.
*Ifunbelieversturnrejectthemessageleavethembe,yourdutyistoconveythemessage(3:20).If unbelieversrejectthemessagefightthemuntilallreligionisforAllah(8:3839)

You are quoting out of context...again! I will not even acknowledge your claim with a response except that you should reread 8:3839 it clearly does not say what you have understoodandmisinterpretedinANYEnglishtranslation! Soyouwanttolookatthecontextoftheseverses.Letsdothat:

 HereitisclearthatMuslimsaretopresentthemessageofIslamandifpeopleturnaway theyaretosimplysaythattheyhavedonetheirduty(thedutyofnotification).Theyshould alsowarnthosewhoactoutsidethelaw(killingmessengersandadministratorsofjustice) thatAllahwillpunishthem.ItisAllahwhowillacttopunishthedisbeliever(see3:19)

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LetsnowturntoSura8:

ItisclearthatMuhammadhadtroublewiththedisbelieversandthattheyshouldnowbe warned to cease hostilities or face the consequences. These consequences will include military action against them until there is no more fitna (rebellion/strife). They should, however, also be forced to abandon their previous beliefs. One of the objectives of the fighting should be that all religion is for Allah (wayakna ldnu kulluhu lillahi). They are therefore to fight to gain a religious objective (i.e. to force people to accept Allahs religion). This very clearly contradicts the verses above that states that Muslims merely haveadutyofnotification.
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*Creationwasanactofbringingtogether(41:11),Creationwasanactofsplittingapart (21:30) Theseneedtobereadincontextastheyareclearlynotdescribingthesameevent. Okayletslookatthetwoversesincontext:

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 So here we have two divergent accounts of creation. I quoted both of them in full. Some problemsimmediatelypresentthemselves; Boththesepassagesareintroducedasdealingwiththecreationoftheearthandthe heavens. Not sure how you can so confidently assert that they refer to different events.Howmanycreationswerethere? 41:11 presents the heavens as amorphous (smoke) and then coming at the commandofAllah.

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21:30speaksofearthandheavenasajoinedentity.Thatwasthenseparated.Ifyou cannotseetheclearcontradictioninthatyouareattemptingtomassagethetextto saywhatyouwantittosay.

SomeotherproblemswiththeQuranicaccountsofcreation.Quran2:29statethat first the earth and then the heavens were created. This is contradicted by Quran 79:2730whichreversestheorder.

Thefollowingversesallstatethatcreationofheavensandearthtooksixdays(7:54, 10:3,11:7,25:29)yetifyoucountthedaysinSura41(quotedabove)itis8.Count themforyourself:earth2days,sustenance4days,sevenheavens2days.

*ThefirstMuslimwas:Muhammad(6:14,6:163,39:12),Moses(7:143),Egyptians(26:51) What if I tell you, as Muslim's, we can argue that Mohammad himself was NOT the first Muslim.Adamwas,Noah,Abrahametcetcetc. I am the first Muslim too...in my family. Can one not counterargue with your point that thoseyoumentionedwereindeedtheFirstMuslimsintheirera? Thatisclearlyreadingsomethingintothetextthatcannotbefoundthere.Arentyouthe onesoquicktopointtocontext?Allowmetoquotethedifferentverses: HereisthetextualanalysisofoneoftheinstanceswhereMuhammadclaimstobethefirst Muslim. Can you point me to any indication whatsoever that he is making a statement aboutbeingfirstamongaparticularcommunity?

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 I challenge you to do the same in the original Arabic for all the other instances where primacy of belief is claimed and prove that it is unambiguously linked to people or timeframes. Yourargumentrunsintofurthertroublewhenyouapplyittotheotherpersonsmentioned as the first Muslims or believers. Quran 3:67 states that Abraham was not a Jew or a ChristianbutaMuslim.YetwhenMosesisdiscussedinQuran7:143hedeclaresthatheis thefirsttobelieve.Aretheyofdifferentpeople?Notheyarenot;theystandinthesame historicaltradition.MosescomesintotheframeafterthedescendantsofAbrahamrunsinto troubleinEgypt.AsamatteroffactMosesisportrayedasfulfillingthepromisesthatGod madethroughAbraham.Itwouldinthiscontext(yescontext!)beexceedinglystrangeand awkward if he identified himself to be the first believer, especially in an already believing communitywithaclearmemoryofAbrahamasthefatherofthefaithful. FurthermorethereareevidencefromtheQuranthatAllahrevealedhimselftoAaron(the brotherofMoses)atthesametime(7:143)andalsoevidencethatthattherewereatleast one Egyptian believer around during Moses time (40:2835, 3846). So we have Moses, Aaron,thepeopleofIsrael,andatleastoneEgyptianinEgyptwhowerebelieversinAllah.
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YetwhentheEgyptianmagiciansacceptthepathofAllahtheydeclareWearethefirstto believe.HowevertheycannotbethefirstEgyptianbelieversbecauseAllahalreadytoldus ofanotherone!Hereistheirstatement:

Noqualificationwhatsoever.Simplyastatementonbeingfirst!Thewholethingisamess andtheirreconcilablecontradictionspileup. 2)TheQur'ancontainsavastnumberofscientificerrors:UponreadingtheQuranIcome away with the distinct impression that it merely reflects the cosmology of the seventh centuryArabiandesert.IcannotseeanythingofaGod'seyeviewperspectiveinthetext. Thereisnothingofgalaxies,ofaninfiniteuniverse,oftheEarthspinningonitsaxis,ofblack holes.TheseareallthingsthatGodwouldhavebeenabletopointoutandthatwouldhave immensely impressed us today if we read it. Instead what we find is a deeply flawed cosmology (when compared to modern scientific knowledge). If I had only the Quran I wouldhavehadtobelievethefollowingthingsabouttheuniverse *Shootingstarsaremissilesfordevils(Qur'an67:5) Whatisthepurposeofashootingstar?Canscienceexplain?Iknowwhatitisandwhatis does, it shoots, but what is its purpose besides decorating the night sky? You don't know andneitherdoI!Illgowiththemissilesfordevils. Goodness,areyouseriouslymakingthisargument?Shootingstarscertainlydonotshoot. They are lumps of rock or metal that travel through the universe on random trajectories. When they enter our atmosphere (as happened recently in Russia) intense friction causes
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themtoheatupandburn.Theydonothaveapurposebutthesciencebehindthemhas beenclearlyunderstoodforcenturies.Whyyouhavetodenythatandreachforanancient andutterlyunscientificexplanationisentirelybeyondme.Actuallyitisnot.Theonlyreason why you have to go with such an absurd, premodern and superstitious interpretation is becauseyourbookcompelsyouto. *TheearthisflatThemostcommonreferencetotheearthisthatofacarpet Acommonatheistargument.Myansweristhesame:Tous,onearth,howdoestheearth appear?Spinningonitsaxis?Round?Orspreadflatlikeatable?Canyouseethecurvature oftheearthwhilststandinguponit?Ermno! Yesweobservetheearthasflatbutthestoryofcreationisnottoldfromourperspective butfromAllahs.Heshouldnowbetter!Yetalmosteverysingleinstanceoftheearthbeing like a carpet comes from a passage where the process of creation is described. For example: Quran15:19(Thereareseveralotherverseslikethis). And the earth We have spread out(like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable;andproducedthereinallkindsofthingsinduebalance. The important verb here is madad (protract , reach , elongate , extend , draw out , lengthen, stretch out , spread out , sprawl , dilate , reach , range , unwind , outstretch , pervade). TheinescapableconclusionisthatAllahbelievestheworldisflat!Thisisconfirmedbythe frequent references to pillars and heaven being like a canopy above it. Why did Allah not makeatleastonestatementtoimpressuswithhisknowledge(Allahseyeviewifyouwill) of how the world actually looks? Even I can do it: Have you not considered the earth? Spread out like a carpet yet the Lord of the world allows you to traverse it and return to whereyoustarted.SuchastatementwouldnothaveundulyalarmedtheArabsbutwould havemightilyimpressedustodayinthewayitdescribestheworldasitactuallyis.YetAllah doesnotseemtoknowanyofthis.

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*TherearesevenplanetsinthesolarsystemThereareactually8and5dwarfplanets=13 (65:12) Thereisnoreferenceto"planet"inthatverse...Iclearlysee"Heavens".Notthesamething. Youmissedthestatementthelikeofthem.Hereisananalysis:

Sothisverseclearlystatesthattherearesevenheavens(atotallyunscientificconceptby the way) and likewise seven earths. This has always beenunderstood as meaningseven planets. If you do not accept that interpretation you will 1) Have to argue with Sahih Bukhari(Volume4,Book54,Number417;seealsoNumbers418,420;Volume3,Book43, Numbers 632634) and 2) Come up with an alternative plausible explanation. Whichever wayyougo,youwillcontradictscience. *NighttimecoldiscausedbytheMoon(76:13) Howexactlydidyoudeducethatwhichyouclaim?Theverseclearlydoesnotsaythat. YusufAli(oneofthemostrespectedtranslatorsoftheQuran)whoinfollowingtheinternal rhythmofthetextrenderstheverseasfollows:Reclininginthe(Garden)onraisedthrones, theywillseethereneitherthesun's(excessiveheat)nor(themoon's)excessivecold.
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 *Themoonis"Noor",whichemitslighttoo(71:16) Andhathmadethemoonalighttherein,andmadethesunalamp?That'swhattheverse actuallysays.YoureallyDOstruggleandstraintochangethewordsaroundtosuityourown ends. Imafraidtheshoeshouldbeontheotherfootasfarasthatchargeisconcerned.Hereis thetextualanalysisofthewordinquestion.

Thewordnur/noorsimplymeanslight.TheAllahseyeviewperspectivemustbethatthe moon actually reflects light. But no mention is made of this. The moon is simply called a light.Anothermissedopportunitytodeeplyimpressus! *Themoonwas'splitintwo'AneventapparentlyonlywitnessedbyMuhammadasitleft notracewhatsoeverinanyhistorical,astronomicalorarchaeologicalrecord.(54:1) Therewerewitnesses!AndIhaverecords.Dosomeresearch,please! It really is no use to me to say that there were witnesses and then providing no proof whatsoever.Thesearenotmybeliefstodefend.Theburdenofproofrestsonyou. *Theskyismadeofrockymaterial(34:9) Theverseyousiteinyourargumentdoesnotmakeanysuchclaim!
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Imsorry,thatreferenceiswrong.Itshouldbe50:6.

Thewordfurujinreferstoacrack(inthephysicalsense,asyouwouldfindinarock)ora riftinarelationship.Theideathatheavenissolidisfurtherreinforcedby21:32wherethe skyiscalledaroofthatprotects,seebelow.(Bythewayifyouwanttotaketheroute,not warrantedatallbythetext,todeclareallofthissymboliclanguageyouwillimmediatelybe struckwithanotherhugeproblem.Eveninasymbolicsenseheavenisnotwithoutcracks orsolid.Everheardofblackholes?)

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 *Weliveinageocentricuniversewiththeheavensmovingaroundearth(cf.40:69,27:61) Noneofthosetwoversesyousiteinyourargumentcomeclosetoimplyingwhatyousay. Reread. Apologiesfor40:69.Myreferencingwasabitmixedupthere.However,27:61clearlystates thattheearthissolidandfixed.LetslookattheissueofgeocentrismintheQuraninmore detail. 1. WhenwereadtheQuran(andmakeastronomicalobservations)wequicklydeduce thatthemoonrevolvesaroundtheearth.Earthcanthereforebeseenasthecentre ofthemoonscircuit.Sofarsogood.Nowletsturnto13:2and31:29.Whereitis madeclearthatthemoonandtheQuranfollowsappointedcourses(13:2)andthat they follow each other (lshamsa walqamara kullun yajr il musamman each movingforatermappointed)resultinginnightandday.Thetextthereforeteaches that the moon follows the sun in a term or route appointed. The Quran is clear thatthemooncirclestheearth,thesunfollowsthemoon,thusthesunorbitsearth! Thisistheobviousinterpretationanditisentrenchedinthehadith.SahihBukhari SahihBukhari4:54:421:NarratedAbuDharr:TheProphetaskedmeatsunset,"Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostleknowbetter."Hesaid,"Itgoes(i.e.travels)tillitprostratesItselfunderneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a timewillcomewhen)itwillbeabouttoprostrateitselfbutitsprostrationwillnotbe accepted,anditwillaskpermissiontogoonitscoursebutitwillnotbepermitted, butitwillbeorderedtoreturnwhenceithascomeandsoitwillriseinthewest.And thatistheinterpretationoftheStatementofAllah:AndthesunRunsitsfixedcourse for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All Knowing."(SeealsoSahihMuslim1:297,SahihBukhari9:93:520) 2. TheQuranplacestheearthrightattheheartofitscosmology.Ittellsusthatthereis onlyonesun,onemoonstarsandsomeotherearths,7intotalasdiscussedabove. (We seek in vain for Allahs eye view references to galaxies, asteroids, black holes etc).Thepositionofthissinglesunandmoonisclearlydefined.Theheavensare7in total, a totally unscientific concept. (Please dont respond with references to the
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layers of the earths atmosphere as it is clear that the stars, well beyond our atmosphere,areinthelowestheavencf.37:6)Theheavensareobviouslyabovethe earth. The sun and the moon are contained within the heavens and follow similar coursesordainedbyAllah. 3. The heavens are held firmly in place by Allan to prevent them from moving and perhaps falling on what he placed in the centre: earth (2:22 29,35:41,21:104,2:65,17:92,34:9) If you cannot see that this is a totally messed up and unscientific cosmology that can only have been provided by someone who had no astronomical knowledge (a certain desertArabperhaps?)youareindeepdenial.Thisisnotwhatwewouldexpectfrom someonewithanAllahsEyeView! Myresponsetoyourclosingstatementfollowsbelowit. =========================================================================== In conclusion, I have only been a Muslim for 3 years and already I can poke gaping huge holesineachandeveryoneofyourarguments!CanIputitthiswayifIcancounterargue you, what chance do you have when bringing the above arguments to someone who has beenstudyingIslamictextsfortheirentirelife?Isthisthereasonwhyyoudeliberatelyseek out and find new Muslim Converts, hoping to sow the seeds of doubt into their impressionable minds? Perhaps you might understand why I replied to your Tweet using #Kafir#Infidel#Shaitanwhatdoyouhonestlyhopetogainbymakingmedisbelieve?My religionteachesmethatyouareequaltoorgreaterthantheDevilhimselfforsuchconduct. Nooffence!LikeIdidn'ttakeoffencewhenyoutoldmetodosomethingbetterwithmylife. If you notice from the above, I stopped on your point #2 out of 10 because I can answer everythingyouclaimanddonotfeelitisanadequateuseofmytimetoargueanyfurther with(a)someonewhoclearlyhasnotdoneanyresearchotherthanaGooglesearchand(b) speaks with no authority you may have changed the words but the ideas you have plagiarisedelsewhere.IrecallresearchingtheexactsameversesyouquotedaboveBEFORE IbecameaMuslim.AndhereIam!Icouldntconvincemyselfthatthesearecontradictions
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anderrors(becausetheyarenot)sowhatmakesyoutheantiHolyCrusaderthatbelievesto the depths of your soul that you can convince me? Clearly you cannot if I can look objectivelyatyourargumentsandcounterargueyouin4A4pagesinlessthanonehour! Had I been your tutor and this your dissertation, this is a FAIL with a comment next to it whichreadsmusttryharder. =========================================================================== Inconclusion: 1)Overconfidencehavebeenthedownfallofmanyanapologistandyoucertainlydisplayed thatinspades.Youcertainlydidnotpokeanyholesinmyargumentsandcould,infact,not managetolandasingleblow!IcanalsoassureyouthatIhavedebatedmanyscholarsand theyallprefertocutandrunafterawhile. 2)Iamagrownupanddidnottakeoffenceat:#Kafir#Infidel#Shaitan.Theyare,however, indicative of a mind that has succumbed to the indoctrination inherent in oppressive ideologies. Click here for an extended discussion of this. I am sure you will recognise yourself:http://www.twitlonger.com/show/l77s3n 3)Mydetailedrebuttalmeansthatyourboastfulcommentthatifyouanswered2outof10 of my objections means that you need not bother with the other 8 holds no water whatsoever.InlifeasinmathematicsprovingAandBdoesnotautomaticallyproveC,D,E, F,G,H,IandK.Besidesasyouwillbynowbeawareyoudidnotevencomeclosetoproving AandB!ThecaseagainstIslamissimplyoverwhelming.Myotherobjectionsprovingthe utter unbelievability of Islam lies like Mount Everest before you and you have not even managedtoclearthefoothills!Ireproducethembelow. Saveyourselfthetroubleandwalkawayfromanideologythatcannotwithstandcritical scrutiny. Regards, Peter

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ObjectionsNotAddressedinYourRebuttal
3)LargepartsoftheQur'anseemstohavebeenwrittenforthebenefitofasingleperson: YoubelievethattheQur'anisGodsfinalwordandtheguideforfaithandpracticeforthe wholeworldfromSouthAmericatoChina.YetAllahcouldnotfindplaceinitspagesforthe Shahada,thefivepillars,howoftenyouhavetoprayandmanyothercrucialbitsof information.Hedid,however,findtimetosettlethedomesticsquabblesofonesingle individual.IfyoudonotfindthatatleastalittlebitstrangeImafraidthatyouaresimply weddedtoapreexistinguncriticalvenerationoftheprophet.Herearesomeexamples: *AllahrevealsthatMuslimsareonlyallowedtomarryfourwomen(4:3).Muhammadwants more.Howconvenient!Hegetsarevelationallowinghimtomarryasmanyashewants.It explicitlystatesthatthisprivilegeisforyouonly,notfortherestofthebelievers(33:50) *Allahrevealsthatmultiplewivesarealwaystobetreatedequally(4:3).YetMuhammad developsfavouritesamonghiswives,wantingtospendmoretimewithsome.How convenient!Hepromptlyreceivesarevelationtellinghimthathecanpostponeand receivehiswivesasheseesfit(33:51) *Muhammaddesiresthewife(Zaynab)ofZaid,hisadoptedson.Zaiddivorceshersothat Muhammadcanmarryher.Thiscausesagreatdealofgrumblingamonghisfollowers,many ofwhomregardhisactionsastantamounttoincest.Howconvenient!Allahimmediately stepsinwithanotherspecialrevelationmakingitclearthatwhenadoptedsonsaredone withtheirwivestheiradoptedfathersmaymarrythemandthatwhoeverquestionsthis rulingquestionsAllah!(33:37) *Muhammadhadsexwithaslave(MarytheCopt)towhomhewasnotmarried.Thewife (Hafsa)whoseturnitwasthatnightfuriouslyobjected.Muhammadpromisednottotouch MaryagainifHafsakeepsquiet.Shedoesntandascandalensues.Howconvenient!Ever faithful,Allahstepsintosmooththingsover:"OProphet!Whydoyouban(foryourself) thatwhichGodhasmadelawfultoyou"(66:1) 4)Muhammad's'perfectexample'isthoroughlydisreputableandwouldlandhiminprison ineverysinglecountryoftheworldtoday: *Heforcedseveralofhisenemies(e.g.AbuSufyan)toaccepthisprophethoodorbe executed.
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*Heforcedhisadoptedson(byreceivingarevelationfromGod)todivorcehiswifesothat hecouldmarryher(SahihMuslimVolume2Number2347;SahihBukhariVolume3Number 249;seealsoQuran33:638). *Hemarried,andhadsexwith,awomanonthesamedaythatherhusband,father, brotherandmostofherfamilywereslaughteredbyhisfollowers(SahihBukhariVolume2 number68andVolume4number143,280)Itisclearthatheconsideredhertobepartof thespoilsofwar. *HemarriedAishawhensewassixandconsummatedthemarriagewhileshewasonlynine (SahihBukhariVolume7Book62Number64)Onetraditionevenstatesthatshewasstill playingwithdollsatthetimethemarriagewasconsummated(SahihMuslimVolume8 Number3311)Onlyprepubescentgirlswereallowedtoplaywithdollssoclaimsthatshe wasactuallyolderisfalse. *Hecommittedgenocidebyallowingtheslaughter900(theysurrendered)unarmedmale membersoftheBanuQurayzah(Jewish)tribeaftertheyrefusedtoembraceIslamand receiveddivinesanctionforit(Quran33:2526). *Heorderedtheassassinationofseveralpeoplewhowerecriticalofhim(e.g.thepoets AsmabintMarwanandAbuAfak). *HeorderedthetortureofKinanaalRabitowitharedhotirontoencouragehimto revealthewhereaboutsofahiddentreasure. *Hebrokeatreaty(ThetreatyofHudabiyyah)whichcommittedhimtoliveinpeacewith thepeopleofMecca.Againheconvenientlyreceivesarevelationjustifyinghisactions (Quran60:10). *Heallowedhisfollowerstorapecaptivewomen(SahihMuslimBook8Number3371)and toseethemaspartoftheirrewardforfightingbattlesforthesakeofIslam(Quran23:56) Nowaskyourself,whatwouldourworldbelikeifweallfolloweda'perfectexample'like this? 5)ItispossibletopointoutthetextualsourcesoftheQur'an:YouclaimthattheQur'anis perfect,thatthereis'nobooklikeit'.YetexamplesofwhereMuhammad'borrowed'from preIslamicsourcestowritethisbookcanbepiledup: *Quran21:5171(InwhichAbrahamtakesissuewithhisfathersidolatry)isanalmost exactretellingofanillustrationonthedangersofidolatryinventedbyaJewishRabbi(Rabbi
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Hiyya)whichisretoldintheMidrashHabbaGenesis. *Quran5:3132(InwhicharavenshowsCainwheretoburyhisdeadbrother)shows amazingsimilaritieswiththeTargumofJonathanbenUzziahandtheMishnahSanhedrin (4:5).Bothoftheseare(differenttypesof)JewishcommentariesontheTorah. *Quran27:1744(whichtellsthestoryofSolomonandtheQueenofSheba)copiesanother ancientJewishmanuscriptnamelytheTargumofEshter. *ItisnotonlyJewishstoriesthatwerecopiedintheQuran.SomeearlyChristianfables wereincludedaswell.Quran5:110mentionthefactsthatJesuscouldspeakwhilehewas stillinthecradleandthathewasabletobreathelifeintobirdsofclay.Theseareboth legendsfromextraBiblicalChristiansources.InthefirstcasefromTheGospelofThomas theIsraeliteandthesecondfromTheGospeloftheInfancyofChrist. *InQuran18:924wefindthestoryofsomeyoungpeoplewhowerepreventedfrom hearingfalsedoctrinethroughbeingshutupinacaveformanyyears.Thisstoryshows remarkablesimilaritiestotheOrthodoxfolktaleoftheSevensleepersofEphesus 6)ThetextualhistoryoftheQur'anisfraughtwithdifficulty:Youclaimthatthereisonlyone versionoftheQur'anandthatthiswascodifiedbyAli(withtheconcurrenceofthe prophet).SunniswillclaimthatthisprocesswasspearheadedbyUthman.Thisishowever, clearlyfalse: *TherearedifferentversionsoftheQur'anopenlyonsaleintheIslamicworld(Hafs,Warsh, Qalun,alDuri).Theycontainmarkeddifferences,tothepointofsometimesevenchanging theobjectsofverbs. *TheearliestversionoftheQur'aneverfound(theSana'amanuscript)isverydifferent fromtheQur'anusedbymostMuslimstoday *SeverallaterMuslimleaderslaterclaimedtohavemadechangestotheQur'an.Most notableamongthesewasAlHajjajIbnYusufAlThakafi(660714)whoopenlyboastedof themanychangeshemadetotheQur'anandclaimedthatheworked'onlyunder inspiration' 7)TheQur'anclearlyteachespaedophilia:Qur'an65:4spellsouttherulesfordivorcingagirl whohad'notyetmenstruated'.Itprescribesawaitingperiod(iddah)thatwillhavetobe observedbeforeshecanremarry.Thiswaitingperiodonlyappliesincaseswherethecouple
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actuallyhadsex(33:49).Alloftheavailablescientificevidencepointstothefactthatsex withgirlswhohadnotyetmenstruatedisadisaster.Sciencetellsusthatthephysicaland emotionalfalloutcantakedecadestorecoverfrom.NowagainIaskyou:Whowouldwant todefendthepositionthatsexwithsuchgirlsshouldbepermissibleexceptifyouhadto. Youreagoodman,whoIbelievewouldnotwanttoseeanyonehurt,butsadlyyouhaveto saythatsexwithprepubescentgirlsisokaybecauseofQuran65:4. 8)Islamkeepspeople'inside'byforce:Youwill,nodoubt,saythereis'nocompulsionin religion'(Qur'an2:256).ThisiscontradictedbymanypassagesintheQuranwherebelievers arecommandednotonlytoscoremilitaryvictoriesovertheirenemiesbuttoalsousetheir militarysuccessestoestablishIslam.Qur'an8:39isagoodexampleofthis:Andfightthem untilthereisnofitnahand[until]thereligion,allofit,isforAllah.Andiftheyceasethen indeed,AllahisSeeingofwhattheydo.ItisalsocontradictedbybothSunniandShia hadithandjurisprudencewhereitisclearthattheultimatepunishmentforapostasy(i.e. whenpreviouseffortstogetapersontorepentwereunsuccessful)isdeath.Nowhowon earthcanyoucallthisnocompulsioninreligion?Itseemsthatthisismerelyaoneway streetinthesensethatyouarefreetoenter(althoughinthelightoftheversequoted aboveeventhisisdebatable)butonceyouareinyouarelockedinandcanneverleave.If youthinkthatthisismerelyanancientproblemIreferyoutothefactthatjudicialand extrajudicialexecutionsofapostatesarenotunknownintheMuslimworldandthatitis impossibleinthevastmajorityofMuslimcountriestolegallychangeyourreligionfrom Islamtosomethingelse(whereasitwouldbepossibletochangeyourreligionfrom somethingelsetoIslam).Nowwhatarewetomakeofthetruthclaimsofafaithwherethe founderwassoinsecureandunsureoftheappealofhismessagethathehadtocompel peoplewiththemostextrememeasurespossibletoremaininside?Howarewetosquare thiswithmodernconceptionsofhumanrightsandaboveallwiththemuchtoutedideaof nocompulsioninreligion? 9)Thewitnessofhistory:WhenIslamisexaminedintheclearlightofhistoryitcomesoff verybadlyindeed.Justafewexamples: *ThereisnotasingleclearanduncontestedreferencetoMeccabeforethetimeofIslam: SomethingverystrangeforacitythatwassupposedtobetheepicentreofArabiantrade.
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ThefactthatMuslimapologistshavetoscramblearoundtryingtofindreferencesinthe Bible(whichtheyotherwisebelievetobecorrupt!)andthattheyproposeallsortsof alternativespellingsonlyaddstotheembarrassment.Numerousdocumentsfromthepre Islamicperiodcamedowntousdetailingtraderoutes,listingtribesandpopulationsofthe region.Glaringlyabsent:Mecca! *TheRomanskeptdetailedlistsofallthedeserttribesofArabia(forthepurposeoftrading withthem,recruitingtheirmembersasmercenariesetc.)Yetitseemstheyneverheardof thesupposedlymostpowerfultribeintheHejaz:TheQuraysh(thepowerfultribetowhich Mohammedsupposedlybelonged)!TheydonotappearinasingleRomanregisterandalso notinasinglenonMuslimsourceuntillongaftertheadventofIslam. *NonMuslimsources,theDoctrinaIacobiandtheArmenianChronicleof660AD,maintain theArabsandtheJewswerealliesaslateas640AD.ThisdirectlycontradictstheQur'an. *TherearenoarchaeologicalreferencestoIslam,MuhammadortheShahadauntilabout 690AD.Coinsandinscriptionsdatedtobeforethisdatecontainstatementsofmonotheism butnothingthatcanbeunambiguouslybelinkedtoMuhammad.Acuriousomissioninlight ofhissupposeddominance. *TherearenomentionsoftheQuranbyunbelieversforafull60yearsaftertheearly Islamicconqueststookplace.Nothingatall,notaword!Theywereperfectlyunawarethat theirconquerorshadabook.Similarlythereisnoreferenceatalltoaprophetbythe conqueredpeopleoverthesameperiod. *Alloftheearliestmosquesthathavebeenexcavatedhavetheirqibla(directionofprayer) pointingtowardsNorthernPalestineandnotMecca. Thisisjustthetipoftheicebergwhenitcomestothewaysinwhichhistorycontradictsthe traditionalIslamicaccount.Themessage:Doubteverythingthatyouthinkyouknowabout MuhammadandtheearlyhistoryofIslam. 10)ThetestimonyofcontemporaryIslam:Mylastpointissomewhatmorephilosophicalin naturebutstillveryimportant.YoubelievethatIslamisamercytomankindandthatthe Qur'ancontainsAllah'struth.Youwouldthereforeexpectthatplaceswherethismessageis followedwillbehavensofpeace,prosperityandprogress.Doesthiscorrelatewithourlived experienceinthe21stcentury?Itdoesnot!ArepeopleflockingtogetintoMuslim countries?Aretherelengthyimmigrationqueuesofpeoplewishingtopermanentlysettlein
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thelikesofSaudiArabia,PakistandandIran?Itisactuallytheotherwayaround:Millionsof peopleareclamouringtoleaveMuslimsocietiesinordertogoandliveamongpeoplethey regardasinfidels.Thisiscognitivedissonanceofthehighestorder!Herewehaveplaces wheremillionsreadtheQur'aneveryday,wheremanyofthemprayfivetimesaday,where theprinciplesofIslaminformmanyoftheirdecisions.Yetmanyofthemcannotwaittoget thehelloutofthere.Islamicsocietieslagbehindinscience(Swedenproducesmorepeer reviewedscientificpapersthantheentireArabworld!),humandevelopment,educationand almostanymeasurethatyouwouldcaretoadopt.Itwouldnotdotosaytomethatthishas nothingtodowithIslam.HowarewetoevaluatethemessageofIslamotherthanobserving thosewhofollowit?Allthatwecanseeismillionsofpeoplereadingthisbookandcreating societieswherepeopledonotwanttolive. Sojusttorevisityourlaststatementtome,youcalledmylogicflawed.Iwouldsuggest thatyouneedtoexamineyourownlogicinlightofwhatIhavejustwritten.Anyofthe10 statementsabovewouldbeenoughtogetathinkingpersontoseriouslydoubtthe teachingsofIslam.Thecaseofall10ofthemcombinedisoverwhelmingandconclusive.Yes youmayattempttoarguewithaversehereorthere,ormassagesometextstoharmoniseit withanothereverynowandthenbutthesheerforceofevidence(andIcouldhaveadded manymorepointsbesidesthis10)pointstoaconclusionthatyouwouldprobablyfindvery unpalatable:TraditionalIslamicteachingcannotwithstandcriticalscrutiny.Thisiswhyso manyattemptsarebeingmadetoblockcriticismofIslameventothepointofthreatening tokillthosewholeaveit.Asaperson,however,whoprideshimselfonhisintelligenceyou havetoaskyourself:DoIfollowtheevidencewhereitleads?Ifyoudoyouwillhaveto leaveIslam.Ifyoudon'tyouwillhavetoacknowledgethatyouaresimplytakingonblind faithstatementsthatareamplydisprovedbylogic,textualanalysis,sociologicalanalysisand thelivedexperienceofmillionsofpeople. Thinkforyourself.Ifyoudoyouwillseethatblindfaithonlyleadsyouintowalls. Regards, Peter
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