72 Hour Hearing transcript 12/10/2013 re: redacted Bailiff: Mrs. Rambo: Mr. Hurt: Mrs. Rambo: Mrs.

Rambo: Mr. Hurt: All rise. Be seated please. Good morning your honor. Good morning Mr. Hurt. All right...open the case? ...the case of redacted...a Macon county case that I am doing for Patrick Eidson who has a conflict...case # redacted...If I could call the first witness, the father, redacted? Mrs. Rambo: OK. Mr. and Mrs. C, I know this is the first time I have seen you, there are a few things I need to tell you. You always have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one the court will appoint you one. I do not know if you have thought about that or not. I am assuming the department is asking for custody for up to ten days to complete their investigations. Is that correct, Mr. Hurt? Mr. Hurt: (no response) Mrs. Rambo: Do you have anything that you want to ask or say before they call their first witness? Mr. Hurt: Take the stand please. Mr. Hurt: Raise your hand..tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth so help you god? DC: I do. Mr. Hurt: Is redacted's last name ss or ff? DC: ss. S as in Sam. S as in Sam. Mr. Hurt: ss? DC: Correct. Mr. Hurt: You and the mother are married even though she maintains her maiden name? DC: Correct. Hurt: How does redacted end up with a different last name? DC: He took my name. He has the same name as I do. Mr. Hurt: ff? DC: No. Mrs. Rambo: I think it is just wrong on the docket. Mr. Hurt: Your last name is ss? DC: Correct...and redacted's last name is also ss. Mr. Hurt: When I am filling in for someone else I sometimes I have to rely on somebody else preparing documentation and on the docket it was confusing. Mr. Hurt: Your son jumped into a fire and burned his feet and had to go to Augusta burn center? DC: It was actually a depression in the ground where leaves had been burning about a day and half earlier and had gone to ash ...was white ash...underneath that ash was apparently some very hot coals and he accidentally slipped into that slight depression very quickly. It was like a flash burn. Yes. Mr. Hurt: And how old is the child? DC: Two and a half..thereabouts. Mr. Hurt: While at the burn center the doctor advised you that the child needed a tetanus immunization because of the kind of burn and where he was burned. Is that correct? DC: The doctor did state he needed a tetanus shot..he demanded he be given a tetanus shot. Yes. Hurt: And you refused? DC: I refused. Yes. Mr. Hurt: Did the doctor tell you it was life threatening if he did not get the tetanus shot? DC: He indicated that there was a 25% chance that if he had received tetanus from a wound that he would die. Mr. Hurt: So you objected, refused and we had to apply to the court in order to get the necessary authority to give him the shots. Page 1 of 5

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Mr. Hurt: DC: Mr. Hurt: Mrs. Rambo: DC: Mrs. Rambo: DC: Mrs. Rambo: DC:

I initially refused and then he was very persistent and he said that redacted would receive the shot,the vaccine and at that point I kinda relented and said well what can you tell me about the vaccine because I am totally uneducated about it. I do not understand what is in the vaccine and what some of the side effects might be. I don't understand and he refused to inform me as to what was involved in the vaccine. He did not give me information about the vaccine. I did request for it. I was very insistent on getting some information at that point. But yes I did refuse but then I relented. Did you eventually sign anything? SC signed a document consenting to surgery. Did you eventually tell the medical staff that he could have the shot? No. You never informed them that you had relented? The language was not that I relented it was please tell me what was in the shot You never actually communicated to the staff there at the hospital that you agreed for him to have the shot? Correct. Correct. What do you mean by you relented then just that you asked for additional information? Well at that point when he indicated that he was so serious that this was going to happen with or without my consent I was like, well if this is going to go this way then I would really like to know what is in the shot. No, I didn't relent, I didn't give permission at that point. Definitely. I never did give permission. Well if this is going to happen then I would really like to know what is in the vaccine. I went so far as saying if you find this is truly imperative that he is vaccinated then please tell me what it is that is in the vaccine. Please. I was never informed. Is the child going to require further treatment? Yes. He has gotta go to Valdosta and have the wrappings looked at and the skin grafts that were done have to be assessed. If the department were to ask the court to return full custody to you and your wife, are we going to...as the doctors say your child needs an immunization of some kind because of the further treatment of these burns are you going to consent to it or are we going to have to run back to the court? You are not going to have to run back to the court but I would ask that I be fully informed of any treatment that my son is going to receive. You are entitled to that. Thats what I am looking at right there... If a doctor tells you its imminent and the child would be subject to a danger of death if he does not get a particular procedure. Will you follow medical advice? I will. If there is imminent death...if there is imminent risk of death...what ever it takes to keep that form happening to my child..definitely. There is no way I would ever refuse any medical treatment that...if there is medical death..a good probability of it then there is no way I would ever refuse that. Not before, not now, not in the future. ...back up...lets say the doctor says that in my best medical knowledge your child requires a certain procedure, may not be an immunization, and you ask for additional information on that and the doctor gives it to you. Will you follow medical advice on the treatment of your child? Yes. Definitely. I have no further question your honor. Let me ask you this. Is Flint current on his regular immunizations? The only vaccination he has had so far is the ones given to him in the hospital He has never had any other vaccinations? Thats correct. Do you have other children? I have two other children. Page 2 of 5

Mrs. Rambo: DC: Mrs. Rambo: DC: Mrs. Rambo: Mr. Hurt: Mrs. Rambo: Mr. Hurt:

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Mr. Hurt: Mrs. Rambo: SC: Mrs. Rambo: SC:

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Have they had shots immunizations? No. How old are they? R is eight and D is five. Any other questions Mr. Hurt? No your honor. You can come down.. I believe we've established our probable cause that the child was deprived...may not be any longer deprived in light of what the father just said the family will do. I am concerned about the lack of immunizations...having going to the hospital you are exposed to other diseases immunizations would prevent like whooping cough... What are you asking for? We are asking for emergency custody. I know, what are you asking for today? Today, in light of the child has had his immunization shots an the parents are saying that they will no longer deprive the child of medical attention...the agency would like to return custody to them with protective supervision that they will follow the doctor's advice. I recognize that with protective supervision we don't have the right to consent to medical treatment immediately for the child..we may be in that situation..and if they don't follow it all we can do is either ask you for emergency custody again or contempt for them for not following what they agreed to do. My years of experience tells me that we should continue the temporary custody but that is not what the agency says Mrs. SC. Mr. DC do you have anything that you would like to present? Do you want to testify? Do you have any other evidence? I would just like to say that... (Swears in Sharon and allows her to sit at defendant's table.) We did take our child...We recognized a medical emergency and did everything we could to stabilize our child to prevent him from going into shock. it was an accident. we take care of our children. We do not neglect them. We do not do anything to harm them. I have gone to great effort in my life to put them first in every possible manner. They do see a pediatrician. they have never wanted for medical help. We took him to a hospital and tried to see to his wounds and as a result he was taken from us. There is no way we would do anything to harm our child in any way..any of our children. What pediatrician do you see? We see Dr. K B in Warn. ..and what does your pediatrician say about them not having their immunizations? He consents to what we desire. He is aware of our beliefs that have led us to not agree and not be OK with immunizations and he sees our children and doctors them accordingly. How long has he been your pediatrician? We had other pediatricians prior to him so he has been about two years now. How long have you lived in M county? Three years. Has it been a problem for the school? I home-school and my husband was not 100% accurate, you have to excuse him he is not that great with dates...my oldest child is seven. He will soon be turning eight in just a few months and I am homeschooling him. Are you doing that through the M County school system? I have not been in compliance with having him registered...I have spoken with the individuals at both he M county level and the Georgia department of education level as to verifying our efforts that he has been schooled and anything that they need to verify that. I am assuming that you don't work outside the home? No I do not. Page 3 of 5

Mrs. Rambo: SC: Mrs. Rambo: SC: Mrs. Rambo: SC: Mrs. Rambo: SC:

Mrs. Rambo: SC: Mrs. Rambo: DC: Mrs. Rambo: Mr. Hurt: Mrs. Rambo:

Mrs. Rambo: `

SC:

What does Mr. DC do? Farming Were did yall live before you came to M county? Immediately prior to moving to M county we were in P county for a short time and prior to that we were in H county. Did you ever have DFCS involvement in those counties? No maam. What is your plan as far as staying in compliance with the school system? Just whatever they may need. I have already done the registration process that was required that they considered to be non-compliant to have not registered him as being home-schooled. So that component of it has been done. There is also the issue of attendance records that are usually submitted on a yearly basis so they are not actually due this year until the end of the school-year that I have determined my school-year runs from August to August so that would not be due until the end of August. I inquired that they inform me of anything they might need if it requires testing my child whatever would be required. They have not informed me of anything, in fact, speaking with Ms. J S of the M county board of education she indicated should anything come up the state would contact her and she would be the communicating with me. Anything else you wanted to say Ms. SC? No. Mr. C anything you wanted to say at this time? Not at this time, thank you. ...no argument? I've already argued. I've been the juvenile court judge 12 years and I never had one of these cases. These are few and far between. I have heard from other judges.... I understand that some immunizations or shots as we call them are voluntary and more of a choice than others and I also understand parents are concerned because of the risk of autism and other things that they believe might happen. I do have great concern for your children just, just because. That would be a hard choice to make if those were truly your beliefs. But when you have a physician telling you that there was a 25% chance of your child not making it if he receives tetanus due to these injuries and you refuse it I just don't believe you when you say..there is no way that you would refuse it when there is a good probability of death because 25% is significant any chance is significant when it comes to child. They trust you to make smart decisions for them. this is not like one of those cancer vaccines ...you took him there for treatment...he had to be treated...the staff there...I do not believe they would have treated him without this consent and this went on for hours Thursday afternoon Thursday night. I don't know how many calls I got about this. You should be glad DFCS took custody because the physician could have taken custody of your child and then you would not be here in M county juvenile court dealing with this, you would be over there. It would be a lot harder. So you need to know that. Georgia provides the right for a physician or a hospital to take custody of your child. I will enter a protective order with these provisions, If you don't follow the protective order they will ask for custody of him and they will ask for custody anytime of the day or night because I am always available. It will happen just like it happened this time. Yes they have to make their best efforts to put your child with a relative but most often there is not a home assessment completed and they end up with a stranger and that is not what you want. I cannot imagine how scary this was for yall. Now you are informed. 90% of these protective orders that I see, I see the people right back in here again. This is a different kind of case. I hope that won't happen. If they call me again you may not be so lucky. Do you understand that? Yes maam. Page 4 of 5

Mrs. Rambo: This will be for twelve months during that time you will be required to follow medical advice including signing or giving any verbal consent for any treatment for him. You will be required to sign a release to the department of any medical information they request. You will attend parenting classes which include immunization education. You will comply with the school system in insuring that those homeschooling requirements are met. Mr. Woodson with the truancy program will help you he is seated right behind you. You can talk with him before you leave. And you will be required to cooperate with the department and any other agencies involved. Good luck to yall.

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