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Drink Tea, Eat Cake

Talks and Dialogues on Non-duality and Liberation

Richard Sylvester
with a foreword by Tony Parsons

Non-Duality Press

DRINK TEA, EAT CAKE

First English language edition published October 2011 by Non-Duality Press Originally published in 2011 by Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbH under the title: Wer braucht eigentlich Nirwana? Richard Sylvester 2011 Non-Duality Press 2011

Richard Sylvester has asserted his right under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, 1988, to be identied as author of this work. All rights reserved No part of this book may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, without prior permission in writing from the Publisher.

Non-Duality Press | PO Box 2228 | Salisbury | SP2 2GZ United Kingdom

www.non-dualitypress.com

Isbn: 978-1-908664-01-3

To Tony, Claire, Jen and Eckhard. You have all inspired this book in different ways.

I do nothing. I never think that I am the one who must see to it that cherries grow on stalks. C. G. Jung Memories, Dreams, Re ections

Contents

Foreword by Tony Parsons ................................................... ix Introduction ......................................................................... xi 1. Love In A Fur Coat ..........................................................1 2. The Lost Sutra Of Lord Buddha .................................... 91 3. Spiritual Anarchy ........................................................ 171 4. What About Love? ...................................................206 5. There Are A Thousand Different People Inside Your Head. .......................................................232 6. The Hotel Kitsch ........................................................257

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Foreword

During the last decade the terms non-dual and Advaita have been used for a multitude of publications, teachings and communications of all kinds which, in my view, do not have any direct relevance to the real meaning and dynamic that those words point to. The titles non-dual and Advaita attempt to describe the principle of wholeness, unicity or that which is already at one. A unied reality in which there are not two or there is no other surely con rms the illusory nature of separation. If separation is illusory, then any attempt to not be separate is rooted in a dualistic perspective. So the basic principle of any teaching which attempts to transform an illusory state of being separate into a state of at-oneness is based on the belief in a divided reality and cannot therefore claim to be non-dual. It is rare to nd a communication on this subject that isnt anything other than a dualistic and therefore prescriptive teaching of becoming. It is rare to nd a spiritual message that isnt anything other than a blueprint for personal effort and change. It is rare to nd a work that is devoid of any agenda to satisfy the seekers need to be given a path or a purpose to follow. However, Richards latest book is just such a rarity, together with his previous works. In Drink Tea, Eat Cake everything that is expressed about the nature of non-duality has a fundamental principle running through it. Every response to a rich variety of questions points unwaveringly towards the non-dual perspective. He shares his experiences of his previous trip to Germany together
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with interesting and usually relevant stories. The reader is carried along and inspired by an expression that comes out of a deep and rich experience of life with all of its complexity and humour. As the reader progresses through the book a recognition can arise of a constancy and an uncompromising integrity that speaks directly of something other There is a sense of a resonance that is beyond the words and the meaning that they seem to carry. He responds to questions about death, the natural state of being, the guru game, the nature of love, the difference between natural and neurotic feelings, the attraction that the seeking mind has for struggle and complexity and much more. Here is a book to savour, to chuckle with and to keep and refer to as a rare work of undiluted non-dualism. Tony Parsons

Introduction

One day my German publisher, Carl, who was in London to attend a book fair, phoned me and suggested we meet up. So on a Sunday afternoon I travelled up to London and we spent a couple of hours talking and drinking coffee in the bar of the Radisson Hotel in Covent Garden. My second book about non-duality, The Book Of No One was due to be published in Germany the following spring and Carl proposed that I come to Germany at that time and give a series of talks to publicise the book. He would accompany me around the country and act as my interpreter. Usually I dont travel very far from my home in Kent, except for regular trips to the mountains and coasts of Wales, but this sounded like it might be fun so I agreed. When he was back in Germany, Carl phoned me again and suggested that we record all the meetings during my tour and that I edit the transcripts into a third book. What you have in your hands, or on your lap, or on your coffee table or duvet, or on the bus or train, or lying next to you on the grass on a sunny day in the park, is the result. I visited seven cities in nine days, travelling between each by train and as you will read becoming ill between the fourth and fth cities, Berlin and Hamburg. This added a little unexpected excitement to the tour. So this book is what it is. Each chapter is a record of a different meeting, except there was no recording equipment at my last venue so that one is missing, apart from a couple of stories that I remember telling there and have included here. As each meeting was in a way an introduction to non-duality there is necessarily some repetition. During the
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tour I was treated most generously, put up in hotels, taken to restaurants and bars and driven from railway stations to hotels and from hotels to talk venues in cream-coloured Mercedes taxis. There is a lively and sophisticated interest in non-duality in Germany, just as there is in England. This is not true of every country. When my rst book, I Hope You Die Soon, was published in France, I was warned to expect low sales and no royalties because, according to my informant, They are still into urine-drinking yogis there. I have no idea if the comment about yogis is true but I can conrm that the prediction about royalties proved accurate. A friend who kindly read this book as it was being completed commented that its likely readers would include seekers who are ready to stop. Certainly if you are still heartily enjoying your spiritual search, it is probably best that you put down this book right now and also make a mental note never to go to a talk on non-duality, not even once. If what is written here or is spoken at a talk is really heard, that will be the end of spiritual seeking and your head will be in the tigers mouth. Then there will be no escape. Spiritual seeking can, of course, be great fun and very entertaining. It can provide us with hope, meaning and purpose, a comforting circle of like-minded friends, the company of charismatic teachers and gurus and a means of disposing of our surplus income. It can also give us an excellent way of structuring much of the time that we have between birth and death and provide us with almost endless opportunities to travel to exotic destinations equipped with arms full of vaccinations and rucksacks full of diarrhoea pills. But seeking also guarantees that we do not nd, because it takes us away from presence. As long as we are looking for the secret of enlightenment over there in some far away place and some future time, we cannot notice that this is already it right
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INTRODUCTION

here, right now. This is already that which we seek, the promised land, the hoped-for paradise. But the person can never see this. This can only be seen when the person falls away. When the self is there, muddying the view with its neuroses and its incessant shouting for attention, then it cannot be seen that this is it and this is sufcient. These seven words, This is it and this is sufcient, are the most simple way I have ever found to sum up liberation. When oneness is seen, which can only happen when the person is not there to see it, then it is realised not only that this is all there is, but that this is enough. When the grimy veil of the person is not there diminishing and taking for granted the everyday, and clamouring for something more exciting to happen, then the ordinary becomes transformed into this wonderful play of consciousness. Seeing oneness is the end of searching, because when the everyday is seen as a miracle there is no need to search for anything else to spice up life with. The leaves rustling in the wind, the texture of a dogs coat as it is stroked in the park, the taste of fresh coffee on the verandah of the caf are seen to be enough. This is why, although liberation has no necessary implications, there tends to be relaxation and a profound enjoyment of simple things when the person has dropped away. Many of us today are breaking away from the old adversarial habits of religion and seeking for the common inner core that we feel must lie at the heart of all religions and spiritual paths. We are no longer focussing only on the astonishingly colourful surface differences. We are trying instead to nd the shared hidden truth beneath. Something, we feel, must connect images as disparate as the cruci xion, Ganesh the elephant-headed God, Father Sun and Mother Moon, the communion supper, Kali with her necklace of human skulls, mandalas, whirling Su mystics, Golden Buddha statues, medicine wheels and Isis the River Goddess.
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Non-duality, oneness, lies at the still centre of all religions and spiritual paths, although it is rarely acknowledged and has been little spoken about throughout history. Although we are each born into wholeness, at an early age we acquire selfconsciousness, and in that process a sense of separation and loss arises. Somehow we feel that we have been thrown out of paradise, and whether this is recognised consciously or not, we spend our life trying to make ourself whole again so that we can re-enter paradise. We have wonderful imaginations and an enormous capacity for telling stories, and the great evolutionary tree of religions, of spiritual paths, of the sagas of prophets and gods and holy men and holy madmen, is the result of our forlorn and hopeless search. Our search is hopeless because we never lost paradise. The paradise which we seek to re-enter is always with us, but hidden by the presence of the separated self. We do not need to nd paradise, we need to lose our sense of separation to see that this is already it. But the separated self is unable to lose itself, precisely because it is a false self. The false self is unable to see reality. The eye cannot see itself Except as a pale re ection in a mirror. The self cannot nd itself Except as a pale re ection in a dream. Nevertheless, uncaused and unprompted, the false self can drop away and in that death of the person wholeness, unity, nonduality can be seen again. The false self may drop away while the individual is still alive but it need be of no concern if it does not, because at the death of the body there is only liberation in any case. I am writing these words ve days after the death of Ramesh Balsekar, who wrote, What does death ultimately mean? It means the end of the struggle of daily living. It means the end of duality.
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INTRODUCTION

In the seeing of non-duality (in liberation which is the same thing) it is seen that there is no person with autonomy and responsibility who makes choices about something called their life. It is also seen that everything arises out of nothing, that at the heart of this wonderful manifestation there is emptiness. This emptiness has been realised and spoken about in many traditions, in Buddhism, in Taoism and in Hinduism, for example, and even in Christianity. Sometimes it has been spoken about openly. Sometimes it has only been whispered about, for there have been many times when it has been very dangerous to speak about this, because of the terrible power wielded by priesthoods. Recently, however, there has been a new phenomenon. The views that there is no person who makes any choice, and that everything arises out of emptiness, are now supported by science. Developments in neuroscience suggest strongly that there is no possibility of there being a unied autonomous person at the centre of our experience. Many psychologists now agree that free will is an illusion. And quantum physicists give us a picture of the universe in which even the smallest elements of matter disintegrate into mere vibrating energy, in which everything manifests, as it were, from sound. It is said in the Yogic tradition that the root mantra Aum is the rst and original vibration of the universe. In the beginning was the word, and the word was Aum. Nevertheless, in spite of this coming together of science and mysticism, the views of materialist science and of non-duality about the nature of consciousness are diametrically opposed. Science sees matter as primary, and conciousness as an accidental by-product of matter. It claims that we are essentially physical structures which have developed consciousness by chance because of the increasing complexity of the organisation of cells, neurons, chemicals and electrical impulses in our brains. In other words, without matter there is no consciousness. But
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in liberation it is seen that there is only consciousness, which is the same as saying that there is only emptiness out of which all phenomena, including physical phenomena, arise. In other words, without consciousness there is no matter. The physical does not give rise to consciousness. Consciousness gives rise to the physical. Science can never discover this. It can only be discovered by direct seeing when the person drops away. Nor, for all its instruments, can science discover that the ultimate nature of emptiness is unconditional love. Finally, why is the title of this book Drink Tea, Eat Cake ? When liberation is seen life tends to become less complicated. All the stories that may have fuelled our life drop away and we are left with the simplicity of this. In that simplicity, the small and ordinary things in life may really be enjoyed. I am often asked for advice and I usually refuse to give it. But if I were to give advice, it would be to relax and enjoy whatever simple things you like doing. It doesnt have to be drinking tea and eating cake. It might be drinking coffee and walking round the park. But until the everyday can be enjoyed, the miracle of this is being missed. In Zen they say Before liberation, hew wood and draw water. After liberation, hew wood and draw water. I prefer Before liberation, drink tea and eat cake. After liberation, drink tea and eat cake. But they add up to the same. There is no difference. Before liberation and after liberation, being asleep and being awake, are the same thing. An alternative title that was suggested for this book was The Tigers Mouth, a phrase from Ramana Maharshi, who said Your head is already in the tigers mouth, and there is no escape. Many people who come across nonduality nd that it gives rise to no interest in them and they go away, either never to return or perhaps to return much later. But if you come across nonduality and it seizes you, as it seized me, as an
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inescapable obsession, then as Ramana said, Your head is in the tigers mouth and there is nothing left to be done other than wait until the tiger bites your head off.

A Note On Communication and Translation


Trying to communicate any idea, no matter how simple, to another person is fraught with difculty. The words that leave my mouth or pen may not properly convey my thoughts and feelings. The words that you then hear or read may mean something a little different, or entirely different, to what they mean to me. Somehow we try to move towards some kind of shared meaning, but we will never really know to what degree we achieve this. Essentially, in this as in all other ways, we each live in our own reality. The universe that we inhabit is ours and ours alone. In trying to communicate about nonduality, the problems become compounded. Nonduality is not an experience, it is not a phenomenon of any kind. Rather, nonduality is that which gives rise to all experience, while also encompassing all experience itself. Words describe phenomena. Words cannot describe nonduality. Even the simple choice as to whether to use the word nonduality or oneness or nothing or no-one or being or consciousness or awareness proliferates confusion and gives rise to a great deal of con ict and debate, even sometimes leading to web-rage, which is the internet equivalent of road-rage, on internet forums. Now, to add a little extra fun to the proceedings, let us compound the difculty even more by tossing in the further problems of translating from one language to another, as happened on this tour. There has now opened up an even richer eld of possible misunderstanding. Consider poor Carl. There are concepts in one culture that are lacking in another, as well
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as allusions that are invariably lost in translation, summed up by Eugene Ionesco who wrote The French for London is Paris. And Carl didnt just have to translate my words into German for the audience, and the audiences words into English for me. There were also people in the audience who spoke English to a greater or lesser degree. They would call out questions and comments in English which I would answer, leaving Carl having to intervene and stop us so that he could translate both of us for the non-English speakers in the room. And sometimes Carl would translate a question for me which he had not understood in German and I did not understand in English, even though he had translated literally what had been said. No wonder his head hurt before the end of the tour. You get the point, I hope. No need to labour it further.

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1. Love In A Fur Coat

Wherever possible, trains are the only way to travel. Unlike cars, we dont need to drive them. Unlike aeroplanes, they dont suffer from turbulence. So one sunny Friday afternoon at Cologne railway station my publisher, Carl, met me and whisked me by taxi to my hotel. He then produced a tiny recording device and began to study the instructions intently and, it seemed to me as I watched him, with great puzzlement. As the main rationale for this tour was to be the production of a new book from the talks which I was to give, a lot seemed to depend on the effectiveness of this very small device and Carls ability to work out how to use it. A few hours later Carl, who was also to act as my interpreter, and I sat in the back room of a charming shop and therapy centre which sold books, angel cards, little buddha ornaments, crystals and incense. On the table between us was the dodgy-looking recording machine. It was clear that the shop and centre was being run as an act of love rather than from any real expectation of making a prot. The small back room was already lling up and the large Buddha statue in the corner had to be carried reverently into the massage room next door to make room for more living, breathing beings. The talk was given to a group of knowledgeable, curious people, including the kindly lady who owned the shop and a couple of young men who seemed to know a lot about spiritual philosophy. Another lady, it quickly became clear, was suffering from a deep emotional upset. She continually wrung her hands, sighed deeply and talked animatedly to her neighbours. She seemed both unhappy and angry.
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**********

Cologne Friday Evening


As I sit here I am thinking that I am the only person in this room who doesnt know whats going on. That seems quite appropriate to me. I remember a time when I thought that I knew a lot, but now I know very little, and I know less and less as time goes by. I hope that at some time in the future I will get to a point where I know nothing at all. By the way, Carl and I have not worked like this together before. So this is a great experiment tonight. Isnt this a lovely room? Isnt it beautiful? It has such a nice energy. (Someone comments rather impishly) Perhaps the Buddha should be brought back in? Yes, we could bring the Buddha back in but you might all want your money back if we did that. Perhaps you have come along to hear me speak about something, but as far as I am concerned I have come here to talk about nothing. I mean that in a very literal way. I will talk about nothing or the No-thing from which everything arises. I want to suggest to you that when the person is not there, when the self is not there, it becomes obvious that everything arises out of nothing. In a way, it is a puzzle why this isnt obvious when the person is there, but the reason for that is very simple. It is because the person is blocking out the view of nothing. The person seems so solid and it blocks out the view so successfully that nothing doesnt get a look-in. Nothing doesnt get a chance to be seen.
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(To Carl ) This is really an interesting experiment for me. (Laughing quietly) I have a very bad memory so I am nding that I cant remember the beginning of a sentence when we nally get to the end of it together. The stopping and starting required by this translation is extremely unusual for me. What I will do is talk for a while and then we will have questions and answers and some discussion. Having said that, please interrupt me at any time if you want to ask a question or make a comment or even an objection. Lets get back to talking about nothing and everything, the nothing from which everything arises, and the everything which arises from nothing. Traditionally, the metaphor of the ocean and the waves is often used to explain what we are talking about here. Im sure that most of you know this metaphor. The waves represent everything that is going on for the person in everyday life, the stuff of our everyday experience. We all know that at times this can be very intense, the waves can be very choppy indeed. The ocean represents oneness, silence, the stillness from which everything arises. While we are entranced by the waves, while they seem to be the only thing that is going on for us, it is impossible for us to recognise the ocean as well. But of course we know that the waves are simply the ocean, that there isnt any difference between the waves and the ocean. We could say that the waves are the ocean waving. They are the ocean saying Hi. (Carl, laughing) In German, I am waving is different to the oceans waves. (To Carl, laughing) Oh, so we have a problem of translation already? (Carl, laughing) Yes, we already have a problem. OK, our experiment has failed.
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Then let me try another image. Imagine you are in a little boat on the surface of the ocean. You have no chance of experiencing the stillness of the ocean deep below you, because your boat is rocking up and down, just like life rocks you up and down. The only thing that the person is usually aware of is the waves. This is what life is like for most of us, most of the time. This is the state of separation in which 99.9% of us live. This state of separation doesnt arise straight away when we are born. We are born into a state of unity with no awareness of separation whatsoever. But after a while self-consciousness and a sense of separation arise. They arise together, when we are still very young. In a way self-consciousness and a sense of separation are the same thing. Think about what being self-conscious means. It means that I become conscious of myself. I become conscious of myself as separate from mummy, daddy, brother, sister, everyone and everything in the space around me. Once separation has occurred, I have started on this great adventure called Being A Person. All the adults, all the big people around me, conspire to help me in this great adventure of separation because they all believe in it too. They all believe that they are separate and they even see it as their duty to help me to become successfully separate. So they are very helpful indeed, giving me what they think are great gifts, such as a sense of responsibility, a sense of duty and of morality, perhaps a religion, some rules so that I can become really good at this business of living. They are like the faeries at Sleeping Beautys christening, bringing her gifts. Some of these gifts turn out to be very toxic. Being A Person is ambivalent. It is fun, it is exciting and it is also a real pain. Once I believe that I am an individual, I feel separate from the world and of course that brings a feeling of vulnerability. I will probably have been given a long list of instructions about
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how to become a successful individual, perhaps even a happy individual, in spite of the evidence that nobody has ever managed to do that before me. We all know what these instructions consist of. Here you are, Richard, youre an individual. Get yourself an education, a job, a relationship. Have children and get yourself a big car. Ill have a Mercedes as we are in Germany. (Someone shouts out) We like Bentleys better. A Bentley! Get yourself a Bentley and you are really successful! Once I am an individual, theres dissatisfaction to be overcome, so the message that I can become successful is honey to my ears. (Carl looks puzzled. Richard turns to him. It turns out later that he has unconsciously invented this rather sticky metaphor, thereby setting Carl a considerable problem of translation.) Honey to my ears doesnt work? (Carl, struggling but doing his best to make sense of this) Honey to my ears sounds paradoxical. We have music to my ears, but honeys nice O.k. Well stick with honey, though I am wondering if I have just made that metaphor up. Being a person, being an individual, automatically involves dissatisfaction. As soon as there is a sense of separation, the simplicity of this ( Richard gestures round the room to indicate the ordinary and the everyday) is not enough anymore. But when we are one month old this is enough, and if the person drops away then suddenly this will be enough again. Really that is it. That is all I have got to say. We could all
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go home now. That really is the core of what this meeting is about. When the person drops away, it is the return to paradise because this (Richard gestures round the room again) is seen to be enough. It is seen that there is nothing missing in this, so how could this not be paradise? Another way of describing the sense of separation which happens at such a young age, is that we are thrown out of paradise. This is what the biblical creation myth and many other creation myths are about. Self-consciousness separates us from oneness and then suddenly this is not enough anymore. We have got to have this plus a Bentley or this plus a better relationship or a better job or more money or a bigger house. We have got to have this with a cherry on top. When I use the word liberation, all I mean is the return to paradise which happens when the sense of being a separate person drops away. In this return to paradise, it is noticed that this is already enough. This doesnt need anything added, it is already the promised land. This is already what we are all searching for. It really is that simple. So what are we doing here? What are we searching for in this place? This (Richard waves his hands round the room), this (Richard points to the wall ), this (Richard embraces the space around himself ) is already the promised land. This is already the fascinating stuff, the fascinating perfection, which we think we are searching for. If we cannot see that, it is only because we are searching for it and because we are in the way. It should be obvious that as long as we are searching, we cannot notice that this is already what we are searching for, precisely because we are searching for it. Searching means we are looking for it somewhere else, so we cannot be noticing that this is already it. Look at this. (Richard takes a ower from a nearby vase and strokes it.) Isnt it lovely? What could we possibly add to this
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ower through any kind of searching? It is perfect in itself. What stops us from seeing its perfection is simply the sense that I am a person with a responsibility for this terrible burden called my life. I received an e-mail the other day from a woman in Amsterdam who was celebrating the realization of hopelessness. It might sound paradoxical to celebrate hopelessness but I would like to suggest to you that hope is a terrible burden. Hope and dissatisfaction are the opposite sides of the same coin. They usually walk hand in hand through our lives. Dissatisfaction leads to hope. Hope almost invariably leads to dissatisfaction. This woman expressed the wonderful relief that came from realising her hopelessness. When we realise our hopelessness, then so much of the burden that we carry through life can fall away. (Richard gives a deep sigh to demonstrate this relief.) But nevertheless she cant do it herself? She cant bring about this relief herself? No she cant. This is one of the most the frustrating things about this communication. People often ask me for recommendations, but I have no recommendations to make. What is more, I dont need to make any because, as you know, there are hundreds of teachers and gurus who are happy to give you recommendations. You denitely do not need another person sitting here giving you yet more recommendations. But if I did have a recommendation it would be to relax. Unfortunately, as you have just said, of course the person cannot do that. (Someone in the audience speaks in German for quite a long time. Carl asks her) Shall I try to sum this up?

R ICHARD SYLVESTER

This is a strange experience for me. (Laughing) In my talks in England I often feel that I dont know what is going on, but here I feel it especially strongly. (Carl to Richard) Ill try again. Nearly all people have problems with fear. When you say that relaxation is to be recommended, then of course it should be helpful on the way to salvation. Meditation should be helpful as well in diminishing our fear and helping us to continue on the way until were there. (Laughter from some members of the audience who have begun to tune in to what Richard is saying.) Where? What salvation? There is no salvation. Im not sure what you mean by salvation but for some people salvation is the Bentley of the spiritual arts. (The speaker tries to clarify what she means.) When I meditate, sometimes I get into a state of consciousness where I feel liberated and thats when I feel I have had a taste of it. But liberation is not a state. It isnt something that I can ever feel. We could say that liberation is simply what is left when I am not there anymore. We could equally say that everything is liberation in any case, whether I am there or not. However, I do have a past history of meditation, a very long past history. Meditation can bring many wonderful experiences. I would even say that it can be incredibly helpful to some people in resolving psychological and emotional problems. In fact it was incredibly helpful to me as a person. I have also met people who hated meditation, who felt that it never did anything for them. But whether we meditate or whether we dont meditate, although those experiences can be very profound, they nevertheless have nothing to do with what we are talking about tonight. They have nothing to do with the
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disappearance of the person. We may meditate and the person may drop away or not drop away. We may not meditate and the person may drop away or not drop away. What we are talking about tonight has nothing to do with any of the stories that the mind tells about cause and effect and it has nothing to do with anything that we think that we are doing. It has to do only with the dropping away of any sense that there is a me. As the sense of me is a false sense, it cannot make itself disappear. It cannot disappear itself. The false self cannot realise reality. (Richard suddenly laughs heartily.) I have just realised that I have no idea whether Carl is saying anything like what I am saying. (Laughter) (To Carl ) Perhaps you are talking about Marxist philosophy. So what you are describing as liberation is in effect totally independent of all circumstances.(It is one of the philosophically inclined young men who has spoken.) Yes, that is a good way of putting it. Cause and effect dont apply here but the mind resists that idea intensely. The mind both resists it and resents it because the mind is always trying to work everything out, trying to lead us to some goal, and that requires the operation of cause and effect. Of course in much of life, cause and effect seem to work. (The same young man) When the person drops away, does that feel as if any identication with the body ceases? Because separation comes from feeling imprisoned in the body. There can be a complete dropping away of the sense of the person, and of any sense of identication with the body as well. Then what often happens is that the sense of being a separate individual comes back, leaving a very disappointed and puzzled
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person who knows that something profound has happened. They want to get back to it, yet they arent able to do anything about that. This temporary dropping away of the person is sometimes referred to as awakening. Later, there can be another dropping away, a total disappearance of the person. After some time what often happens is that the sense of a physical location comes back, but the sense of constriction or imprisonment that a person experiences disappears. After that, the sense of physical location may hang about or not. Usually it does to some extent, but it is not important. It doesnt matter. This second disappearance, when the person does not return, is sometimes referred to as liberation. By the way, it doesnt have to happen like this. There dont have to be two specic events like this. There can just be a gradual gliding into seeing liberation. You dont use the word God. You use the metaphor of the waves and the ocean and the rowing boat. Can you say more about this metaphor? When liberation is seen, when the person has dropped away, then the stillness and silence of the depths of the ocean become obvious. The rowing boat of everyday life is still there and it might still be rocking around, but there is also an awareness of the stillness and the silence of the ocean. When I say that the rowing boat is still there, I mean that life goes on. Activity goes on. Stuff goes on happening. This is the case unless liberation coincides with physical death. Why did we drop out of unity and become enmeshed in duality? Why do we have to suffer? Why do we have to go through all this to get to where we want to go? (The questioner is genuinely puzzled.)
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There is more than one question there. Firstly, we are not going anywhere or through anything. All questions come from the mind, but Why questions have a particular hold on the mind. The clearest answer I can give is that there is no Why. What happens simply happens. But lets say a bit more, while acknowledging the dangers of asking Why questions. We could say that oneness, non-duality, nothing, no-thing simply delights in this stuff that is happening. In the traditional descriptions in Advaita Vedanta, the word which is sometimes used to describe this is lila. We could translate lila as play, game or sport. Just as we like reading novels and watching plays and lms, we could say that oneness likes this entertainment. Oneness is playful. This is the cosmic entertainment. This is the play of oneness. I realise that I have avoided your question about suffering. It is up to you whether you want to come back to it. Have another go at it if you like. (With a smile) We dont need to do that. O.k. (Richard smiles, perhaps with relief at not having to talk about suffering).We will leave suffering for now. (But someone else in the audience refuses to let suffering go. After all, it is a very juicy topic. So they jump in quickly.) No, lets go back to it. No matter what kind of God is dreaming this up, lila must be a very perverse game ... Of course, yes. a game played by a God who cant be normal himself.

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Well, I didnt bring God into this. I mean God, consciousness or whatever power is playing this game. Saying that it is a power playing this game is a very dualistic phrase, isnt it? What power? It is you playing this game. You are the one to blame. But if you want to address suffering directly, we can do that. (There is a murmuring consultation in the audience and they decide to consent to addressing suffering directly.) We wont get anywhere with it. No one ever has. But doomed to failure though we are, we can have a try. (Richard speaks somewhat ironically.) For thousands of years people have tried to address whether there is any reason for suffering. Do you really think we are going to be able to add anything to all of that great philosophising tonight? Of course, just as with many other questions, it is natural for the mind to ask questions about suffering. As I say in this very good book here, which I strongly recommend (Richard holds up his own book to laughter and applause from the audience), ultimately all the many questions about suffering come down to only three. Perhaps I should say that I havent been able to think of another one. But tonight may be the night when somebody nally thinks of a fourth question about suffering. (Someone in the audience starts to get impatient at what they suspect may be prevarication and asks rather insistently) So what are these three questions? (Richard faces this impatience with a mischievous grin) Perhaps I will say what they are, perhaps I wont. Actually they are pretty
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obvious. You all know them yourselves and they also all have very obvious answers for the mind. The rst question is What can I do about my own suffering? We have already talked about some of the things we can do to reduce our own suffering. We have talked about meditation, for example. It is obvious that there are many different things that we can do to alleviate our own suffering, if that is what we are interested in doing. Of course we will never eliminate the ultimate cause of our suffering, because the ultimate cause of our suffering is me, the sense of I. We can meditate, we can have some psychotherapy, we can take exercise, we can clean up our diet. (In a urry of misunderstanding, Carl asks Richard in English) Did you mean clean up at home? What are you getting at with diet? I said Clean up our diet. Eat healthy food. I said nothing about vacuuming the house. (Roars of laughter from the audience) Seeing what we can do if we want to have a more comfortable life and reduce our personal suffering isnt rocket science. It is amazing that in the bookshops so many hundreds of bookshelves are groaning with tons of self-help books. I am sure that each of us in this room could write our own self-help book. Go to see my publisher (Richard indicates Carl ). I am sure he will throw them onto the market for you. (Hilarity in the audience.) If this was a different kind of meeting, everybody could have a pen and some paper and I bet that within a few minutes we could sketch out a self-help book which would rival all the others, like The Secret for example. There is a lot that could go into this kind of book. (Richard starts to list some of the things that could be included with a mischievous air.) For example, do something altruistic, be nice to people. (There is laughter from the audience at this.) Give
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meaning to your life by getting yourself some kind of project. Spend time in green places by which I dont mean repaint your bathroom (much laughter). We know all of this intuitively, and as neuroscience makes more and more advances it is proved scientically as well. It is not abstract or wishy-washy or pinkand-uffy to say If you want to feel better, go and take a walk in the park. We know that if we take a walk in the park it will produce different enzymes, it will produce endorphins and our brain-wave function will change to a healthier pattern. That is just one of the three questions dealt with: What can I do to alleviate my own suffering? We have got two more questions still to go. (Someone in the audience is not clear about whether to take this seriously or not.) Youre kind of serious about what youre saying, although youre kind of joking as well, right? Serious about what? What you just said about what we could do, like going to the park. Yes, of course I am serious. Try it. Or get yourself a pet. That will have similar effects. It has proven effects on brain-wave function. Why do you think that people who keep cats or dogs live longer? It is good for you to care for another living being. In addition cats calm you and dogs make you take exercise. The second question about suffering is How can I alleviate the suffering of other people? I am not even going to give you a list of what you can do about this one, because it is so obvious. If we are interested in alleviating the suffering of others, there are lots of things that we can do. Some of them are quite simple and you could start them this very evening. The third question about suffering, and by far the most
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intractable, is What is the meaning of suffering? That is the one that most of the philosophical and religious books get written about. If the mind thinks that this is a sensible question to pose and wants an answer that will satisfy it, then the most intelligent thing to do is to choose a religion or one of the spiritual stories. There is a vast array to pick from, but I suggest that underneath all their apparent complexity, they are really very simple. Basically, all the religions and spiritual stories are able to give you only two different explanations of suffering. One is that God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot understand his motives. Perhaps we shouldnt even ask questions about his motives. This explanation often involves the idea that suffering is good for us in some way or other. The other explanation of suffering involves the story of karma. In the case of karma, the central idea is that we have brought suffering on ourself, either as a punishment or as a necessary learning experience. Depending on the kind of personality that we have, we might be attracted to one or other of these explanations for suffering, to one or other of these ancient stories. But what I am saying today is that perhaps it may be possible to notice that they are just stories. Here we are. This is it. This is known (Richard pats the table). This is known (he touches the wall ). This too is known (he picks up the ower again). The rest is baseless speculation. (Interjection from the audience) Dont touch the ower too much! Its fragile! (Laughter) And that is also known. (Richard puts the ower back in its vase.) Stories about karma are exactly that. They are stories, stories that we tell in this, in presence. They are real. They are real stories and sometimes they satisfy the mind. But what I
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am talking about here has nothing to do with satisfying the mind. The mind will never be satised with this. The mind will never be satised with nothing. You may have already noticed on many occasions that if you set up an argument between the mind and nothing, the mind will always win. I said earlier in this talk that I used to know a lot but now I know very little and I hope that one day I will know nothing at all. (Pausing, as if in deep thought) I said that as a kind of joke but I also meant it. (Richard stresses the next paragraph quite heavily.) These stories, such as I am suffering because of my karma, or even better My enemy will suffer because of his karma (Richard stays very serious, in spite of laughter from the audience) or God is sending me suffering to test me are examples of what we think we know. But when the person falls away, it takes all these stories with it and it doesnt replace them with anything. Instead of these stories, there is emptiness. (Mischievously) Liberation is hell. Really. It doesnt give you anything back. It simply takes these stories away. You could say that this leaves freedom or you could say that it leaves hell. It leaves complete anarchy, anyway, when all the stories disappear.(Impishly) Liberation is the ultimate anarchy. (Someone in the audience holds up a magazine.) I have an article here. Its written by yourself. I recognize the photo. What do I say? Remind me. As a description of non-duality, you say that its nothing but the divine. I am happy that I said that, because of course there is nothing except the divine. Everything is equally divine. If all the stories drop away then how can anything be more divine than anything else?
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How can anything be less divine or more divine than this glass of water? How can anything be more spiritual or less spiritual than anything else? More divine, less divine. More spiritual, less spiritual. That is duality. That is separation. It is separation into divine and non-divine, into spiritual and nonspiritual. These concepts can only mean something in the world of duality. (Richard speaks as if he wants to provoke the audience.) In liberation we have complete anarchy. This makes nonsense of all beliefs, and I do mean all beliefs, no matter whether they are spiritual or non-spiritual. Now Im meditating so Im being spiritual. Now Im in a bar so Im not being spiritual. (Richard is surprisingly engaged with this point and emphatic.) Its complete nonsense. (Now hes demonstrably amused by the next point.) Its oneness meditating. Its oneness drinking in a bar. (Richard becomes very serious again.) This excludes nothing. As soon as you exclude something, you have duality. You have oneness over here and something else which you have excluded from it over there. (Now he speaks resignedly, yet in a relaxed way.) But the mind cannot make sense of this. There will always be something that the mind dislikes or nds distasteful. As far as the mind is concerned, whatever it dislikes should be excluded from oneness. So according to what youre saying, all the stories in which we nd ourselves are also part of unity? Yes, of course. What I often try to do is to get out of the story or to nd a better story. Or I try to manifest a better story, as recommended in books like The Secret or The Cosmic Ordering Service. (The audience roars with laughter but Richard stays quite serious.)
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This is what the person always tends to do because, as I said earlier, the person is always dissatised with this. But what I am talking about has nothing to do with trying to change this, because when the person is not there, this is already seen to be perfect. So why would there be any impulse to phone up the cosmic ordering service? What Im puzzled by is this. When those authors say that you have to order what you want, that you have to manifest what you want, then what they are saying is also part of unity. Yes, of course. It is unity expressing itself as a certain amount of delusion. Delusion is just as divine as everything else. Were all enlightened, but we dont know it? I would not say that we are all enlightened. I would say that no one is enlightened. There is no such thing as an enlightened person, because liberation is only seen when the person is not there. The seeing of liberation is completely impersonal. Liberation may be seen here (Richard points in his own direction), but it has nothing to do with me. We tend to make a connection between the seeing of liberation and the person who is reporting on it. Then we look for something special in that person and eventually of course we will be disappointed. If we think liberation has anything to do with the person reporting on it, we will always feel let down when we discover that they are quite ordinary, in fact just like everybody else. (Someone in the audience says in a strongly insistent way) But you meditated for thirty years and then there were two events and everything changed

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