Q: Hello today I have pleasure to interviewing Ramesh Balsekar, spiritual master, sage, who was realised his true

nature and never forgets it. Ramesh was educated in india and then england and after that pursuit career as bankar for 30 years, after he retired about year later he met his true guru sri nisargadatta maharaj and it was not long after that ramesh received enlightment. Hello ramesh R: hi! Q: welcome, it's nice to see you Your teacher nisargadata maharaj, ?tell through? Advaita, what is advaita? R: advaita really means absence of dualism, dvaita is duality, and advaita means non-duality or more accurately absence of duality, means in effect an unbroken holines . Q: is advaita a religion? R: advaita is not a religion, advaita is basic principles of most organized religions but as the old religions ???? into various interprretations this basic principle, this basic principle of the transcendental philosophy, the '???? philosophy that got lost, and religions got involved in lot of their individual interpretations so this basic principle, the ground of all being which is called absolut or unmanifest which itself manifest into this appereant universe. So the basic principle is that it is universal principle wich manifests itself and the science, modern science, call it self generative proces so this manifestation of the universe , that mistics have always said has been proces that has happening by itself. The scientist now confirm that it is self generatice process, no one brings it about it is just happening, Q: what'a all ??? about? I mean people are seeking enlightment , people feel like they're bondage, how does all that come about than? R: that came about because individual started thinking of himself in terms of an individual, actually what is individual? The individual is really nothing but an object, an object precisely like any other object, but inanimate object has neither life nor senses, the animal, sensational being, has senses. So what distingue sensational being from an inanimate object is the existance of sensacions which enables the senses to work.??? And the human being, the essential being with additional of intelect, so inanimated object with the senes is the animal??? and animal with intelect is human being, and human being because of his intelect has separated himself from the universe and has considered himself as separated individual, separate entity, and very fact of his considering himself of separated entity this very separation is bondage. So now he is creating bondage, the intelect has created the concept of bondage, and with the concept of bondage , concept of liberation comes in. So if the individual does not consider himself in bondage, the

question of liberation just doesn't come in.

Q: does the individual can overcome this idea of bondage, is it somehow built in to life, the missconception that we're in bondage ? R: the misconception that we are in bondage, is because of the very concept of separate individual. Actually he's just an object , but it is intelect which has separated him, from the rest of the universe. And instead of being merely an object and realising that there's only an object - an instrument through which totality of god functions he assumed that he is subject. The real subject can only be one, all are objects but he has individual human being as usurp the subjectivity of a god. I'll call it subjectivity and with this usurpation of subjectivity he has separated himself, and it is separation itself which leads him to all kind of feelings of misery. The individual tends sees misery and therefore he wants to relise this misery which is called freedom. So which is cause misery, individuals misery - is bondage. And want to save themselves from bondage so he is seeking media outside to get himself liberated but it's his own separation from the universe as separated entity, and real liberation comes with realization that he cannot be separated entity , that he is just the part of unbroken holnes which is the universe.

Q: so let me see if i understand, the universe is one, totality, unbroken holnes, and somehow those idea the individual comes about. How does that work, that the individual come in this holnes. R: all there is really is absolute, all there is is consciousness. The individual comes in only when there is awerness, there is no individual in deep sleep. It is only when is awake, that means when there is a sense of presence, when there is this sense of being aware of one self and in that awerness, the basic awerness, for instance, when any idividual wakes up from sleep, from deep sleep, the first consciousness , the first awerness, is not awerness of individual the first awerness is of the impersonal consciousness. So when the impersonal consciousness identifies itself with each individual bodymind organism as an individual then the ME come up. So basicly it is impersonal consciousness identifying itself with an object and the ''me'' arises.

Q: so the inpersonal consciousness brings about this individual R: through identification which is individual organism. That's right.

Q: in the self there is no individual. R: individual is an concept. Q: it's an concept.. thought??? About by impersonal consciousness

R: which is identifying itself as an individual. So the basic.. The whole point is that the impersonal consciousness has identifying itself with the individual body-mind organism as an individual, and this identification continuous through several body-mind organisms and in a certain body-mind organism the mind turn towards and then the proces of disidentification start. And the end of this proces of disidentification is what is turned as enlightment. So it is whole proces of identification and disidentification is an impersonal proces in which individual is merely organism through which this impersonal proces happens. So the very idea of an individual entity becoming enlightened is fallacious. That is the basic fallacy. And the ultimate enlightment happens when this basic fallacy is realized. That it is a fallacy. So the realization of the falacy of the individual is enlightment which in other words means a disidentification from individual organism and an identification with the unbroken holnes. Q: Well then the impersonal consciousness gives up its identification and realised its own true nature. R: its own true nature. This is how the whole proces is impersonal. Q: so the individual is a play caracter, it comes into being it goes out of being. R: yes. It is a character in this play that is life and living Q: now , from the new point of the individual though as identifing as an individual , even if it is impersonal consciousness that's not the ordinary thinking. Individual has an identity of ''me'' For instance i'm sitting here talking with you, it would appear that i'm individual talking with you.. R: yes but then what has turned you into the seeker? You're individual talking to me And you're seeker. Q: yes. xd R: so what are you seeknig? So who is want to know what

Who is seeking what So the whole point therefore is that impersonal consciousness at the certain point in the certain body mind organism has created a thought in the brain of that individual organism which leads that organism to find out his true nature so that is how seeking has began. So its not that rifka (voditeljka) is seeking anything, the impersonal consciousness is seeking its own source through the body mind organism which is called rifka. Q: yet on the other hand you were saying that there is no separation in this impersonal consciousness. It's a one totality, of consciousness , so in that sense then bla R: it's one totality, that is a cosciousness at rest, in which consciousness is not aware of itself, the moment when sense of awernes ''I AM'' arrows in the consciousness at rest the consciousness become aware of itself and awarness means a duality. To be aware you have to be aware of something, so in that unbroken holnes consciousness in the state of rest, its original state of rest, there's no need to be aware of itself . so when this sense of ''I AM'' arows in that state of consciousness at rest which the scientist called the bing bang then this awerness arows and the awerness with the awerness became this duality. And with that awerness came this manifestation. And the manifestation when it arises the existance of manifestation dependance on its being observed. And for it being observed the manifestation needs space in which manifestation, the 3-demnsional objects can be extended. And time in which 3-dimensional object can be observed. So all that is really happening is that once manifestation coming to be(ing) observing has taking the place and for observing to take place . the observing takes place through individual body mind organism so each individual organism is object through which the impersonal consciousness observe its own manifestation . Q: ??? so far in this story . there is a indetification or not? Is the ''ME'' nessesary for this obesrving to take place? R: no. The ''me'' comes in only after basic duality of the observing taking place thorugh an obesrver object and observer object for observing to take place there has to be an observer object and observed object when the observer of object assumes this subjectivity then this dualism comes into the game. Otherwise they are both observer object and observed object. Q: and the truth subject is this totality of consciousness R: only subject is: totality of God, observing through the individual organism but once the observer(d) object assumes subjectivity then the ''me'' and the ''other'' comes in so for the observer object become observer subject and the rest of, by that means he separates himself from the rest of the universe as he is object

Q: bla bla. R: therefore this individual separation this ?? human relationships comes in and life and living as we know come in . but once this realization happens that the observer subject is really only an object that is what the ultimate enligtment means. so the ultimate enlightment merely means - reversing of the proces which has happen from duality to dualisam . so the reversal from dualisam to duality when the observer object realises that he cannot be a subject that the only subjcet is totality of god and that he is only an object through which observing takes place than the usurpation of the original usurpation of the subjectivity is given up. And the observer object no longer consider him self as subject but that is a merely an observed objcet like anybody else and that is an instrument through which observing happens and he is merely an instrument through which totality of god functions and brings about such actions as consider nessesary . Q: so at some point this identification has come about and the separation happens . does this identification comes about spontaniously ? R: it does. Q: there is an object and then all of the sudden is identified, it think it's a subject, it'a an object that now has assume subjectivity. R: then the ''me'' is coming to beings. And that is what our lives usually are abouth. Seems from the time we start to identifying ourselves as children , as separated entities, in fact as we grow up we get that identity more and more strong , seems like its natural part of life. And growing up to became identifiyng and as you said some of us somehow , the idea of seeking also comes about spontaniously . why does it happens in some objects and not in other objects. R: why should it not. It's part of the proces. It's part of the evolution, evolution which goes on, from first the consciousness identifying itself , the proces of identification, contionuos through several body mind organisms, thorugh several lifes, and in an particular organism when the thought occurs and some event occurs which turns the mind inwards the proces of disidentification starts. Q: you mentiod at start several lives and as i understand that there is no real ''me'' so what is this concept of reincarnation and what is to reincarnate? R: nothing is to reincarnate, new lifes are appeard , new body mind organisms are created, so that is proces of evolution will go on. Q: impersonal.

R: impersonal, the whole proces is impersonal. But for this evolution to go on new life certain actions are created , those actions have effect , so this causality is the basis of the functioinig of the universe. So for certain actiones to happen new body mind organisms are created, new generations, so the fresh actions will take place, and ?this?? action and effect , the effect becomes the cause and this is how's life and living is all about. It's based on causality. Q: somehow, there is some train of cause effect passing through various births.. R: the cause and effect relate only to actions and not to the individual, and it is in the functional of totality that actions happen, and the organisms various body mind organisms, are there merely for the actions to take place Q: ok, so in one of these it seems to spontaniously come about that, a supposed individual get the idea of seeking .. R: of wanting to know. This is all about. So the individual wants to know, what its true nature is, that is what the seeking is all about, and the seeking really as i said at the basis of this, is impersonal functioning of totality. The impersonal consciousness identifyng itself and identification continuoes for several births then the mind turn inwards , the proces of disidentification starts, and that too goes through several body mind organisms , through several lifes. But the lifes are differnet lifes, different organisms, they do not refer to the evolution of any single entity, there's no such thing as entity, so the proces goes on through different objects. So the proces goes on , and for the proces to go on, new body mind organisms are created, it is not that any entity takes on new forms, in order to evolve, Q: then there would really be an entity of me , existing, R: karma is causality, so causalty is the very basis, of life and living Q: which is an impersonal event. R: which is an impersonal functional of totality Q: it seems rather strange that some of these objects in story should begin to be seekers and seek relise from the story. But it does happen . they find their way sometimes through guru, like yourself, or teachers, its hard to get away from the idea that there's an individual whose faded to go somewhere and that is simply inpersonal story its hard to, of course thats probably bulit in that its hard to understand .

What is that brings disciple together to his guru ? R: the disciple and the guru are part of this proces of impersonal consciousness seeking. First identifiyg itself and then seeking its own source. Q: part of that impersonal. R: the both are interrelated concepts. of that proces. Q: Some of the indentifed individuals never entertained this proces , they go about their lifes being born growing up , dying without even thinking about enligtment. R: yes. Because those organisms than apart, still apart of proces of identification, and in that evolutionary proces of identification still going on the question of seeking doesnt arise so only after the mind turn inwards then the proces of disidentification , the proces of seeking has started Q: this, all thaty you're telling right now seems to be from the perspective of the individual going through this proces R: no, on the contrary. I told you, the whole proces is an impersonal proces and the individual organism is merely an object thorugh which this proces is happening. So the basis is really not individual. The inndividual comes into trouble , thinks is unhappy and he is unhappy seeker because he thinks in terms of an individual , want enlightment as an object. So part of understanding , part of this growing up, spiritualy is to realise that in individual is really basicly an object and no object can become enlightment. Basicly essentional (ili sensational ? ) being , human being is still an object. So what he really is his true nature is only consciousness , so the very first ??giver? of understading arises when he realises he cannot be an object , that that which works through an object must be something other than the object. So that beginsthe seeking for that which function through organism. Q: is that the sense of I AM, sense of consciousness, the seeking begins to get the glimpse on R: yes. The seeker begins to get glimpse, that he sense of presence, his consciousness . in deep sleep hi's not aware of it. So it is only when he is conscious is when he's wake up and become conscious. Only in that awerness does this question come up. Q: only when he is awake. R: only when he's awake. So what is realy present? Q: consciousness. R: it's consciousness which is the sence of presence. The sense of presence is present in awakening state and the sense of presence as ''me'' is Absolute in deep

sleep state. So this alternative presence and absence of the sense of presence is the very basis of existance. Existance is based on dualism, duality that interconnected with opposites. Everything is moving, everything is changing, and this change is based on opposits. But the human individual thinks those opposits are separated and that he can compare and choose betwen. So he wants to be good, to excluding a bad. He wants only beauty to excluding ugliness. the beauty and the ugliness, the good and the evil are interrelated objects, are interrelated concepts and one cannot exist without the other Q: So this ''me'' thinks in terms of opposites that we belives that one parto of the opposites is true iz cannot hold on to bulit opposites at same time R: if he's is conscious of both than his unhapiness wont be there, he's unhappy , the basis of his unhappiness is his wanting one as opposed to the other. He is wanting wanting and he is not realised that one cannot exist wihout the other and this seeing both together does not happen normaly because the human percepcion is based on the fact that he can only see in the limitted way it cannot se the whole picture and that is indeterminacy of not seeing the both of both opposites at the same time. Can be seen in this paradoxical cube. Q: mhmm, how's that work.. R: in this paradoxical cube when you see it as a cube, you watch it as a cube Q: mhm. Seems to flipp, first you lookin down under and then you looking up R: face of the cube keeps on changeing, shifting, but the camera doesn't change , i mean the camera sees the cube continuosly as the cube. It's only when you see it. camera doesn't sees it as the cube, the camera sees it only as a figure so only when you, because of the intelect, sees the cube as the cube and not merely as a figure. of certain lines , a combination of lines , then you'll see it as a cube and therefore this flip flop happens Q: i want to understand what the form is , i want to get a nane, so R: once you give it a form as an object than it changes , but if you see it as part of totality than you see totality as based on interconected opposites Q: and this would me impersonal? R: and this would be the impersonal seeings Q: but its not the case for the ''me'', the ''me'' is going to si it either one way or another.

R: that's correct, you see Once you see that this flip flop occur only because you see it as a cube and not as its originaly general basis. So when you see the universe as totality than the unhappines doesn't happen you don't keep choosin. So the enlightment is merely understanding that this universe is an unbroken whole and that the opposites are interconected and that is changes the very basis of life and living therefore nothing can't be constant so what human being is unhappy about is that he keeps chasin, he keeps chaseing security and what this understanding is all about is that there cant be no security because life is based on opposites. And whatever exists now is going to change Q: life is a flip flop. R: life itself is a flip flop, understanding that brings about the sense of quiety. Sense of peace. Q: this brings about another thought . i've heard you say about enlightment that there's a transformation in perceveing , somehow that The world is unreal R: yes, actually how did this enlightment first happened.. with this identification, proces of identification turning inwards and the disidentification at some point the ultimate happen of enlightment must have happen . so what does this real enlightment mean or what did it mean to those people who have this enlightment and in which body mind organism this happens. So this has been happening from time immemorial. This understanding of this foreign?? philosophy this sudden understanding , sudden realization of ones real nature. Has been happening in every part of the country sice the times inmemorial and what it realy means is there is sudden intuitive insight where by there is a radical revision, radical revision of transcedence and this radical vision of transcedence what it realy means is that in that vision, in that vision of transcedence the reality is transported into a totaly different dimension that is a real flip flop and this is a permanent undestanding and that undestanding become that reality as we see it, reality as we see it as is percetable to the senses is not the true reality and there is experience an actual experience that the real reality is unreal, but seems to us unrel now is experienced as reality and what appear to us as reality , appear asreality to our senses is realy only appearance. So this sudden vision of transcdenedtion has benn happening from times inmemorial Q: so this event that is enlightment , thats called enlightment . it sounds like changig in to dramatic ways , one is a true flip.flop of percepcion that you were describing R: no.

It's no longer a flip flop , the flip flop sees is. The flip flop existed because of the unbroken holnes was not realised. So the basis of this understanding , of this basis, is radical vision of transcedence is that the individual has no free will , that all that is happening is an impersonal happening and that the individual who are so far consider himself as an individual entity is realy not an individual entity at all but merely an object or instrument throguh which totality functions. So the basic essentional differention is the sense of personal entity , the sence of personal doership , the sense of having personal free will ''desmorona'' crumbles-raspadne. That is the basic thing, but the usually when the average person founds extremly difficult to give up Is a sense of free will. So this sense of free will or the sense of personal doership has to drop off and the droping of permanently of that, not merely intelectualy understanding but the maximum possible total conviction that he is realy not an individual entity but merely an organism through which the totality function, means a surrender of his free will and if there is no free will obviously there is no individual doer. So when enlightment happens all that realy drops of is the sense of personal identity, the sense of personal doership, and not anything else. So the identification that the body mind organism must continue beacuse the body mind organism to function has to have identification so whether it is jesus christ or buddha or ramana maharshi or anybody, any sage, when he is quested he would response that means identification with body mind organism still continue . Q: but yet the theatar?? somehow some intuitive knowledge that identification is an accidente of R: nonon, the identification with the body mind continuous so the sudden radical vision of transcedence is transcedence from identitive individual to identitive unbroken holnes. So what happens is individual identification drops of which is an affect automaticly an identification with the unbroken holnes Q: yet they're still functioning through that individual R: The functionig of the body mind organism continuous without the sense of personal doership and that's what works through the body mind organisms is a working mind. So what drops of is the thinking mind which is the sense of personal doership and it is a thinking mind which consider itself a doer Q: and the ''me''. R: and the 'me'', the thinking mind is the ''me''. Me as the doer. When the body mind organism continue to function with the sense of identification the sage continuous say ''me'' and ''mine''. Otherwise he wouldnt be able tu function, but he says ''me'' and ''mine'' with the dipest posibble understanding that this me and mine refers only to the body mind organism, that there is truly no owner of this body. 38:07