WACO TX Negotiation Transcripts

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
TAPES # 1, 2 & February 28,
1993
Q O
2
Tape 1!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Sunday the28th of February.

Telephone ringing!
voice in the background.!
Indiscernible female
I MR.KAVANAUGH: going I'm tomess up this

gentleman's he's desk, going to hate agents when we
leave this place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I dOn't know,
if you leave indiscernible! David's our got number.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Do they have any activity out
there? !
Telephone ringing!
TELEPHONE OPERATOR: Cellular One

Telephone ringing!
customer --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Go out and check Penny with Phil or Chuck or Krone. I think we might have lost one
of our walkies over there and they may have it or may have tore-code all the radio traffic or they're going
to listen to everything we say, so -- well, because the
So manymen wereshot check for us -team might have lost one there.
he ain't answering.
they dropped -- are they -- well, just Indiscernible female

S-N-Y-D-E-R indiscernible!.
voice in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: SteveSnyder,

M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, okay, so and tell Krone
he needs people, you

radios.
to make
arrangements with
the communications all our
know, Scheidler,
to reprogram
Telephone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH: stuff off corner or
Could you
clean all
this
this desk
that's not ours and ringing!
stack it
in the
something? Telephone
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!

car Beverly Road.
MR. KAVANAUGH: UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
He ain't picking up.

SPEAKER: We Beverly Road. need to We need find to
out, there's a car
going down
find out,
there's a car
MR. KORESH:
going down Beverly

I wish
Road.
you knew
what I've been
through.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
David, listen me and No, no, --
now,
I--
you've explained
them to
MR. KORESH:
Ihaven't.
I've not
even scratched the surface.

like Itold Jerry, Jerry
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: MR. KAVANAUGH: --
Just like
Itold,
just
Gonzalez -Yeah.
Robert Gonzalez
Yeah.
--
MR. KORESH:
--
Ireally
liked that
guy too.
I've always loved law enforcement becauseyou all guys

risk your lives every day, you know.
I I
4 MR
. KAVANAUGH:
Yeah, I
understand.
MR. KORESH: MR. KAVANAUGH:

And -Let me --
I'm so, I'm so sorry that

David, listen, we, we know
--
that. Listen,
let me
MR. KORESH:
ask you something.

Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH=Your, your

can you tell me anything about
for --
other wounded condition? I,
men, I
m
their
just concerned
I MR. KORESH: They're, they re not
as bad
as I
am, that's
for sure.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: No.
Not as
bad as you
are?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is anybody

blood that --
losing so
much
MR. KORESH:
NO.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
get some medical --
-- that
we can't help them
or
MR. KORESH: No, they're, they're bandaged

up. They're up and around.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Have you got them bandaged

up?
MR. KORESH:
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Okay, and you think

they're stable?
MR. KORESH:Well, yeah,

around. u
they're walking up
How is
MR. KAVANAUGH: How are you doing?

that wound in the stomach?
u MR. KORESH: It's, it's like -- I said, it's,

it's bleeding in both directions, you know, the --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Bleeding bad, huh?

MR. KORESH:They got these towels
around my waist and
squeeze --
wrapped
stuff and,
and, you
know,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Now see,
you
keep --
you got
to keep,
you know,
some --
little
f 92
pressure on that because it slows

You got somebody can help you
down the bleeding.
with that? towel's real
MR. KORESH:
tight --
Well, it's -- the
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tight, yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- the
tourniquet, you
know.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Anything else hurting?

MR. KORESH: Just my feelings.
M. KAVANAUGH: Your feelings,
hey listen,
don't worry about that.

know, get this solved,
dizzy or anything? M. KORESH:
We're, we're trying to, you

and -- are you feeling sick
That's the way I've been ever
or
r L
since I've been talking to you, but, you know, feel,
Q O
6
you know,
anyway -MR . KAVANAUGH :Yeah .
MR. KORESH: But like, you know, like I say,
let's, let's get some preachers and teachers and stuff

and get - give me acall and, and tell them to show me
the truth, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: You know, I, I
don't think
there's guys two in the

that can solve this
world otherthan you and me
and --
MR. KORESH: I know, see, there you're,
you're doing your job. Come on, you know, you're

playing --
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I'm, I'm being truthful

with you, David, I, I want it -on. MR. KORESH: Oh, come
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I want it to stop and I

know you do too, come on.
MR. KORESH: You know there's way no tostop
this until, like I told you, just giveme the coverage.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I --
MR. KORESH: If you let those, if you let
those men, the so-called[cut off and on]let them talk

to me, you know what I mean? And let them show me the
seals where they're in at the Bible.
_ MR.
KAVANAUGH= Well, you onething, David,
if, if
you would let us help you, you know, your
message would continue, your word wouldgo out. MR. KORESH: Look, look, I didn't hurt any
[cut off and on] MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I understand that.
A MR. KORESH: indiscernible! some of the

people that are following shot people, all right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Let me ask you --
MR. KORESH: Now, I'm responsible forthat,

okay? In 1988 when the Sheriff's Department wouldn't
get George Roden off the property
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah -MR. KORESH: It was
-yeah.
'88, and -
MR. KAVANAUGH: '87, '88, yeah. MR. KORESH: -- we went down to the Sheriff
S
Department and we told them look,you know, we've 8 got restraining order against him. They're bad doing
things. They dug up one of the caskets out here and
the guywas crazy, thought he could resurrect people.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: And so that stuff
[cut off
and
on] andthey won't go outthere. So I hired a guy

named Sam Jones to come out and hewas kindof like a
friend of George, you know. And he tookthe pictures

and we took them back up in '88 to the Sheriff's
Department.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on, what's that, okay?
ll
Q .
Hey, David?
I
8
MR. KORESH: Yeah? g

MR. KAVANAUGH: I just got the word that --
from the radio people. Okay. Hold on just a second, I'm talking to David. If you will give me your message
they will play it.
MR. KORESH= I've got to, I've got to

don't have the equipment for that. do. I deal with
do it.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they, they said they

MR. KORESH: Well, they
radio audio technology. Transfer from, from waves over

to analog.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Just
tell him let
that
David's to got -- he wants

they can do. All
me --
to do it himself,
that --
see what
right. That,
MR. KORESH:And after
that, and
after that
like I say, you know, I just want to -- they never

would be honest with me before, they never would
confront me because when I first started opening they

always ran off -MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- started

you know, in a religious way
MR. KAVANAUGH:
,_
cussing me and stuff,
--
Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- you know, and told me I was
crazy and all that,

trouble, now
but they're looking right
at a
book. You know if there's God a in Heaven, they're in

I'm in trouble.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, how doing? Anybody -
are the
kids
MR. KORESH: They're, they're eating right

now.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Eating? Okay. MR. KORESH: They, they

you daddy groaning sound!.
keep fit
-I
love
MR. KAVANAUGH:
They're prettyscared. I
guess they're scared aren't they? MR. KORESH: No, they're not scared.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No scared?

don't either [cut of and on].
Okay. Well,
we
don't nothing want to happen to them and I kmow you

MR. KORESH: Yeah said something about mean
men, I told them, I said they aren't really mean men,
they're just, they're just doing what they -MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH= - because no one like's daddy's

message.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Dave, do you got somebody

there taking care of you?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're - you know,
they're, they're - like I said, we got some nurses and
C O
10 , 5
they've tourniquet me and they, they
want to give me
No,
some alcohol and I said no, I, I

that's not good.
don't want -I
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, don't drink alcohol.
MR. KORESH:
that and --
No, that
thins the
blood and
all
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, you make you bleed, yeah.

MR. KORESH: Yeah.
-- it'll,
it'll
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: So --
Don't do that.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we don't want you to
bleed. Are
I 92
you in a comfortable
MR. KORESH:
position?
No, there'sno comfortable
position, my
friend.
MR. KORESH: Can, can you stand

MR. KORESH: Only a little.
up?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Little, well,

it'll -- you'll hurt, okay? MR. KORESH: The only
but don't it,
comfortable position
right now
I guess would be six feet
under, huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, buddy, hey, that's not,

that's not it.
MR. KORESH: Hey, that's, that's what they'd
do to me anyway if no one listens to my message.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --
_ ,
_ _ __;7*a
ll
MR. KORESH:Come on, it's a federal

know the laws,_I agree guys need to be with the laws. I dealt with. There's too much
crime, I
bullshit
believe bad
in the
world, okay?
selfish gain,
There'smany too people that

all right?
molest children,
their own
too many people that hurt people for
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. MR. KORESH: They need to be dealt with.
That's what Rome --
at least
Rome got, got their
crime
rate way down, they crucified people,

example of them. But,
MR. KAVANAUGH:
they made an
--
you know,
David --
some, some
MR. KORESH: -some
of the
times they
misjudged, you know, and those are the people

indiscernible! to indiscernible! all my hear the life I prayer of Christ for was never knew what I
doing indiscernible!
upon indiscernible!
indiscernible!
if you ever get a kingdom based

ignorance please remember
MR. KAVANAUGH:
David, I
understand --
MR. KORESH:And I said to

say unto
paradise.
them, I
says, I
to you
today you
should be
with me in
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I
understand and
believe you, but I want to

could we resolve this? I
know what do
you think,
how
mean, how could we save these
12
children and women and everybody who -I

it -
mean, how can
we stop anymore of this and come on, youand me

MR. KORESH: Why did you start MR. KAVANAUGH: - you the war?
can do
and me can do it.
MR. KORESH: Why didyou start the war? Why?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, David,
1--
I,
MR. KORESH: Ignorance, right?

indiscernible!
Man, you know

--
MR. KAVANAUGH:
-- you,
you understand
MR. KORESH:
- you are the bad guys, now you
found out we are indiscernible! okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, you're not the bad guys,

you, you, you understand --
MR. KORESH: Look, my father -
I know you came.
don'toff [cut and on] God said I'm going to bring a

flood and the world said no you aren't, and it world says yes you will and they built
babel means confusion. MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
And God said I'm not going to bring a flood and the
this tower
indiscernible! the Tower ofBabel, Tower of Babel, and
MR. KORESH:
Indiscernible! working
together
trying to plan, plan a salvation against the next
coming floodand God said no so he went and changed
13
their languages
and confounded parts of

fit together.
their, their
words and
sent them to different

a puzzle; they once
the then known land and
divided the nations. That's why all nations look

MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I'm -- if
like
- I'm, I'rn
not having much luck with this

ask you something --
radio station.
Let me up now?
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! coming
MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh? I'm sorry? Nobody
should becoming up. Nobody's up. coming

MR. KORESH:Oh indiscernible!
said --
like I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Now listen, let me ask you

this --
MR. KORESH: The only
--
MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I'm having ~-
MR. KORESH: They're still coming, my friend.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Who is?
MR. KOREsH=The, the agents.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, there are no agents

coming.
MR. KORESH: Yes, they
are.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Nobody's --and closer.
<
MR. KORESH: We're watching them get closer
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, we- they were, they '
l4 I _
were pulling
DOC --
back to the highway.
They're, they're
MR. KORRSH:No, they're not, they're going

down Double-E.
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, I

to the radio.
want you
to listen
MR. KORESH: He has a white

huh?
truck, armored,
MR. KAVANAUGH: I want
you to
listen to
the
radio station
at 4:55.
We're, we're going to put a you want your scripture

out, if you'll tellme I'm Iunderstand and I there. Now, that and
message onfor you, but if

message and your word to get going to
p 92
try to
get it on
that it's not the best, the best would be for you to be
on there. I understand Iappreciate
respect it.
lot of
But I've got to be truthful

that. If you will
with you: I
dictane it to as
can'tI'm -going not to trick you

trouble doing me I guarantee you Iwill out. I
some of
and I'm having a

guy put it out
have this
your words, okay? Work with me and, and let's put it

mean, and, and then we can talk about
the wounded
MR. KORESH:
maybe
coming out.
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Let's it, docome

me can solve this.
on, you and I told you
/ 92
MR. KORESH= Okay. Like
I say,
15
before, God didn't say nothing in

the book to who? To the
indiscernible! right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: MR. KORESH:
MR.
heaven, right?
the
Gave
indiscernible! to
Yeah, I
understand. --
Okay. Now
KAVANAUGH: Now, now, you
got to
give me
word-for-word what
you want -- wanted to say.

Okay.
Word-for-word
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
and --
MR. KORESH:
Is a
truck coming
in?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Nobodys coming,

you my word.
I,
I give
MR.
MR. KORESH:
Military coming -- well,
in? I mean on the
KAVANAUGH: Nobody
road there's everybody but they're not coming at you,

nothing, you
you want
have my word on it. If

I'm going to get You want to talk
you tell
it out. the seven
me what
to say and
Now, give
seals
me word-for-word.
first?
MR. KORESH:
Word on
the word.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Go ahead. Slow

got to write it.
now, I
MR. KORESH: Okay. My,

the throne --
my God, who sits on
MR. KAVANAUGH: My Father,
my God, wait a
.92
minute, sits
MR. MR. MR
on the
throne --
KORESH: In
Heaven.
KAVANAUGH: Okay. All right.

.KORESH: Given me
Has
a book given me
-a book.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
MR. MR.
-Of
seven seals.
KAVANAUGH: KORESH: In
Seven seals.
Revelation 10, Revelation 10,
-thi
Okay.
verse verse
book
-7 -_ 7.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR.
KORESH:
s sealed
Sealed book
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: --
the mystery
--- is
of God. of God
MR. KAVANAUGH: MR. KORESH=
the mystery
to be finished -finished
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
MR. MR. MR. MR. MR.
Is
-- as
to be God has
declared
KAVANAUGH:
KORESH: -KAVANAUGH:
God has
declared
to his
What is
servants the
--
prophets
KORESH: Revelation
22 --
KAVANAUGH: David, just --
I just
want --
what does that mean, Revelation, this

book?
sealed bbok,
mystery of God, oh, you know -- you have the sealed MR. KORESH: Yeah, that's what I was opening
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Go
17 ahead.
MR. KORESH:
In Revelation
22 --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. Okay.

MR. KORESH: -- I come --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Every word

is with me.
which is
the book
MR. KORESH: To give unto every man -MR. KAVANAUGH: Give unto every man. Okay.
MR. KORESH: -- the
seals.
knowledge of
the seven
MR. KAVANAUGH: The knowledge of the

seals. Okay. Is that
MR. KORESH:
seven
all?
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now listen buddy,

you've got, you've got to hang in there for me. I
don't want you to faint now.

those towels changed?
MR. KORESH: Ah --
Can -- you needto get
MR. KAVANAUGH: Why don't you -don't hang up.

MR. KORESH: N0.
do you --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Just check with your

Do you want to change and we can just --
nurses.
MR. KORESH: I've got more blankets here.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. You got some blankets?
Okay. All
right. Now,
I'm going to read this back to
18
you, okay?
' MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Because, you know, I'm just

not the greatest writer. I'm going to read this back to you and you tell me if there's anything you want to
change or if it's what you want, okay? All right.

ready?
You
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
My Father, my God, who sits
on the throne in Heavenhas given
me a book of seven
as God,has
seals. In
Revelation 10, verse 7, this sealed book,

be finished
the mystery of God, is to

22, I -MR. KORESH:
declared to his servants the prophets.

Come.
In Revelation
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- come my reward which is
the book is with me to give unto every man the
knowledge ofthe seven seals. Now, should I say this

message was from David MR. KORESH: Koresh? David Koresh. David Koresh.

David Koresh.
Koresh. Koresh.
this on,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now, I'm going to get and let's you and me agree [gap]
~19
MR] KORESH: What radio

to be on?
station is
it going
MR. KAVANAUGH:
in one minute.
It's going to be
on 1080
in,
MR. KORESH: Anybody, anybody know

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, wait, hold on, hold on
just
a minute,
David, hold
Okay.
on.
MR. KORESH:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER #1:
Let me
cut a
deal before
you play it. Don't play it

MR. KORESH: 1080 --
yet.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey listen,
there's a message
coming on in one minute on, on 1080 for you,

reason we want to give you our
and the
word, we've told the
media that
no more
and that
we're not going to

coming and, and I
come, there's -want you to hear
agents are
it from
them and you know that they know
we - you
know, everybody knows what ATP
said and what you said,
that we're going to try to

MR. KORESH: Yeah.
settle it peacefully,
- do you
okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can you

radio there?
have a
MR. KORESH:
That's - I'm getting one now.

Okay. Get one -he's
MR. KAVANAUGH:
getting
the radio.
Okay, good.
Indiscernible!
1080 AM, David.
MR. KORESH:
OO
20
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Yeah, well
--
MR. KORESH:
You guys
have to
go a
-- it's
kind of,
got to
it's kind of hard to have to do what you all

do and --

heaven.
No, I
have -your destinations
I know
MR. KAVANAUGH: I've, I've, I've been out in
the woods and I've had that

on] raiding a moonshine MR. KORESH: still.
happen to
me [cut
off and
Oh, yeah. You know, we used no catch
MR. KAVANAUGH:
those old
boys making a little

MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah.
whiskey?
MR. KAVANAUGH: And what,

country are you from? MR. KORESH: I was born in
what part
of the
Houston.
MR. KAVANAUGH= Houston, yeah. MR. KORBSH: And there's, there's batteries
in there.
area.
I was born in
Houston, raised
in the
Dallas
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, yeah,

MR. KORESH: Texas boy --
yeah.
M. KAVANAUGH:
M. KORESH:
Texas boy.
-- horses.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Horses, yeah.
{l
OO
21
MR. KORESH: in the Revelation.

MR. KAVANAUGH:
You know
about those
Four Horses
The Four
Horses from
--
MR. KORESH:
That's right, the horses
go to
and fro
the earth
about them.
and the heathen are at ease.
They
don't care
MR. KAVANAUGH:
The Four
Horses of
the
Apocalypse.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is that MR. KORESH:

yeah.
right? , the Apocalypse,
The Revelation,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Horse is

animal.
an interesting
MR. KORESH:
there's a truth
Well, the
in the
thing of
Bible.
it
is is
about them
MR. KAVANAUGH: Idon'tknow. My

to have some and she loves horses.
wife used
MR. KORESH:
horses where I come
Oh, yeah.
You should
see the
from.
Beautiful?
MR. KAVANAUGH=
MR. KORESH:
Gigantic, massive.
on thisvmessage,
I'm, I'm working on

one any minute if
the -you can
you should
get your
be hearimg
this
radio on.
can someone turn
MR. KORESH:
Can someone,
22 the 92--
MR. KAVANAUGH:
92 I I F 7 P P
1080 AM -- 1080.
MR. KORESH:
once or twice if
1080 AM. Tell him
to play
it
we don't catch it.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, tell them
to play
it a
couple times if you don't tell them ~92 92 i 92 r
to play t a
couple times
so he
can hear
it.
MR. KORESH:
station or --
Is it a
Country and Western
MR. KAVANAUGH: 1080, it's KRLD, yeah, it's
kind of a -~ let me
I F > I l s '. V r 1
turn this radio on, David, andsee

Okay. It's on now.
if I
can get
--
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: It's on?Okay, good.

~ KORESH: Pick it MR up.
My name is Koresh,
Y
tell
them Koresh.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tell them

tell them David's name is Koresh.
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
that his nqme is --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Koresh. Get
up louder.
is.
it right.
Pick it
Here it
RADIO BROADCASTER:
Indiscernible!
negotiations are going on and both parties are seeking

a peaceful
' 92 J
resolution to
the situation.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Call him
David Koresh, it's
23 I 92
important.
RADIO BROADCASTER: Negotiations are

>
continuing. I'll
moments.
be back with you

at 5:05 with full
in just
details --
a few
Join us
situation. MR. KAVANAUGH: David? Sir?
r I
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now listen, he.kept their word. Now, the only thing is
MR. KORESH: I can't hardly hear you.
they
> i
they didn't --
r > I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Are

hear me?
you okay?
Can you
I I > 92
Turn that
radio down.
Yeah, sure.
MR. KORESH:
Okay. Here
we go.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: Sir?
Okay. David?
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Okay. I'm going to get
your
scripture messageon there

you.
too. Now,
I kept my part of
for
.
I
the bargain here, I've got one

MR. KORESH: Okay.
message on there
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can you, can you dofsomething

for me?
M. KORESH:
1
Yeah, what
do you
want?
MR. KAVANAUGH: 1, I
want some
of the
wounded
Q
Y r
Q O
P 24
people, I want some of the wounded people.
MR. KORESH: I mean, they're and up aqound

now, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, butDavid, theyre

bleeding or hurt, they need treatment.
MR. KORESH: Well, they're not bleeding.

} > ! I
Most of it was -- where did Scott get hit, in the

MR. KAVANAUGH: Scott ~-
hand?
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
i
1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Scott was hit in the
hand?
MR. KORESH: Where was Big Boy hit? in the,
r 7 I >
in the,in theside of the leg?Just a graze? ,Okay,

just a graze. It, it scared him more than hurtfhim,
huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Okay, but howfabout
some ofthe kids? Can we get some of the children out?

I mean, we --
MR. KORESH: When we, when we finish!our
working this stuff out then youcan come and have the
kids, all right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm sorry, David, say that

again.
MR. KORESH= I said when we get ourimessage

out and stuff then
right?
you can have the children,!all
MR. KAVANAUGH: All right.

I
Now, yougive me
O
25
your word
MR KORESH: Hey, my -- I gave you myiword.

MR KAVANAUGH: Okay, buddy, I trust you and
Ibelieve you I'm going to get this message out and

then we can get the children, right?
MR KORESH: Right.
God blessryou, I
MR KAVANAUGH: All right.

MR KORESH: All right.
love you Now, Iwant you to stay on withme, okay?

MR KAVANAUGH: All right. Iwant to get this to the radio station right away.
MR KORESH:Let's, let's, you know, hear it
MR KAVANAUGH: All right.

I'm talking to David.
Look, hold on,
MR KORESH:
going to have
You're -and you're, you're
those scholars call me up, right? KAVANAUGH: Well, Ihadn't got to that
KORESH: Try, try for me.
KAVANAUGH: Iwill
wor d , y bu tp when we la this
try, Igive you my
message as agreed,
out.
David's
going to
let
us get
the children
MR KORESH:
Gunshot!
But they're -~
MR KAVANAUGH:
Okay?
MR KORESH:
They're shooting at us again
OO
26
indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Who's shooting out Find out who's shooting out there.
MR. KORESH: Out in the field.
chem?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, he hears
them -~
tell
those agents whoever the hell's shooting tell

stop. Turn
i
them to
those people
back.
MR. KA VANAUGH: We don't know who's shboting, David. It - we're going to find out. It's non us.
We just got the word backthat we are not shootng. It

I m
ight be one of your guys in
the far corner of the

they're
5
?
building.
MR. KORESH:No, no, no, no,
.shooting -~ what? Yeah, don't [cut off

MR. KORESH: No, I'm talking to
9uY5-
and on]
the, to the
MR. KAVANAUGH=We're not firing.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now listen, okay, this

is our agreement, okay? I'mto going playthefmessage, I'm and-~ I'm going to, I'mto going tell them to
pronounce your name right,
Yeah.
okay? p
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Because I'm sorry tme way

24
they calledyou Vernon last time but I'm going to

-M. KORESH: Yeah.
25 get
. >
0. 0,
27
MR. KAVANAUGH: -David

MR. KORESH: Koresh. Koresh? MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
Koresh and then --
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And thenwe're going to get

the children out, okay? And --
MR. KORESH: Well, like

scholars to call too. I mean
Well
I said,
---
I want these
MR. KAVANAUGH:
i
I
MR. KORESH: -you're not just going to come
up here and
take them out, you're going to, you1re
going to tell them, you know, that I want some replies on that and I want someone show to me from scriptures
where the
wrong.
seven seals are foundand then I

MR. KAVANAUGH: But David -
knowlI'm
MR KORESH: That's, that's all I'm qsking -MR. KAVANAUGH: -I know that --
MR. KORESH: -for
life, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. MR. KORESH: Come on, bend a bit.

MR. KORESH= Well, if I -let, let$ go one step -let me play this messageand, and, andflet's
get some
,
-all
right
--
MR. KORESH: Get some feedback back.
I 28
MR.
KAVANAUGH: Okay. Let's play the message

KORESH: Okay.
that fast.
and then
I I
we'll talk.
MR. MR.
Turn the
radio on.
KAVANAUGH: Okay. Well, they ainqt going

KORESH: Well, that's too loud, I
KAVANAUGH: Too loud?
to get
it on
MR.
can't
I I
hear my
friend here.
MR. MR.
KORESH: Turn the treble up and turn the

KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!
KORESH: Yeah?
bass down.
I I MR. MR. MR. MR. MR. I I
David?
I I
KAVANAUGH: Let me askyou this, buddy.

KORESH: Uh-huh.
KAVANAUGH: I'll play the messaga, okay,

kids out.
you send
the
MR.
KORESH: I'm not going to do thad. You

KAVANAUGH: Okay.
play the
message like you said -MR. MR.
KORESH: some leaders
and put
on there
Um-hum.
me so-called
--
religious --
MR . KAVANAUGH: MR .KORESH:
-~
and put it on air, you

Yeah.
know -MR MR p
.KAVANAUGH:
.KORESH: -- and, and explain to me what
O
29
the seven
K >
seals are.

know more about that
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
I, I
think you
than anyone.
Well, okay,
And I --
then -
MR. KORESH: -- then

standard isn't it?
my position
is, is,
is
MR. KAVANAUGH: It,

know more about it than
it is,
buddy, I
mdan you
anyone. There's no onefcan
dispute you. I'mtrying not to argue that poind. I

respect it.
MR. KORESH: I know, but --
MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I
small movement
M.
just want
us to make a
toward a
peaceful agreement.
KORESH: Yeah, but, but
you're not just
going to
take
MR.
our children.
KAVANAUGH:Okay. Well,
of the ladies out?
would yob,
would
you send some

MR. MR. out? MR
KORESH: Huh?
KAVANAUGH: Some of, some of thefwomen
KORESH: The
- any
women --
thelwomen
don't want to
go -- they'll go, everyone of usgwill

MR. MR.
80--
KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: --
once we get
our chanpe
to
I r
O
30
discuss this with the so-called minds that thinkthat

they know the seven seals. i
i 1 J > answer --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Well, what, what MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! it's against
religion --
MR. KAVANAUGH: What, what would you-- what
-- if -- whatmessage are you looking from them, David?

I don't think -E.
I r i
i 9
MR. KORESH: Iwant them toshow me fkom the
prophecies where the seven seals are found, just give

the referencesso everybody can hearthem.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, you know the
references. You tell meand I'll have iton the radio.

MR. KORESH: Iknow it. MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: But thething of it is, do they?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, you, you wantto know?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Idon't think they know.

MR. KORESH:Well, okay,
MR. KAVANAUGH: So --
so --
we know --
MR. KORESH: -- I mean they're in trouble

aren'they? t
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, Iagree with you.
MR. KORESH: Then my Father is fixingjto
do
31
some very awesome things in this little world.gRead

Isaiah 24. That's you what all boys have done in
Isaiah 24, you know, it's terrible a [gap]

MR. KAVANAUGH: You're, you're not goingto
die, come on, we're going to - we,we got some1-we're taking some shots from your guys.
MR. KORESH: Where?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on, David. MR. KORESH: Indiscernible!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, thisis David.

people shooting?
Are his
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Indiscernible! #2:

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, your people area
shooting our guys behind the rear barn and we're not
firing at all.
MR. KORESH:No, we're not.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He says -- Davidsayslthey're

not shooting.
MR. KORESH: Go, go down -- because
indiscernible! go down there and indiscernibleb
MR. KAVANAUGH: well, you'd better che%:k. He

-- they keep telling us --
MR. KORESH: Got to hold off on those boys.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, tellthem to hold off I
mean, you know, I'd tell them don't them shoot but if
people are shooting at them, you know --
> I 32
MR. KORESH: Yeah. y

MR. KAVANAUGH: Let's work, let's work out
something. Is
i
there anybody in there?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE #2: Our guys are

taking fire.
MR. KAVANAUGH:Our guys are taking fire.

f 92
Our guys aretaking fire. Now,

come on.
that's keeping not your
end of the bargain. See if you can stop them, buddy,

MR. KORESH: They're, they're down there.
We're not shooting at them.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, we're taking it;
I've
confirmed it three times. We

not to fire.
are taking fire. iThey
need the word from you, you're the top man. Tel them
MR. KORESH:
F I
I
Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't break your word mow.
MR. KORESH: I'm breaking not my wordq

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.
MR. KORES1-I: we -- there [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH: Everybody-stop, everybkdy -MR. KORESH: Who is down at the barn ight
now? Go and try -Dave -M. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: Someone's up shooting toqards

here.
> i
33
MR. KAVANAUGH: David said
maybe it's not ATF
shooting butsomebodys shooting from the barn. Okay.

We're going to suppress
on down there.
everything from
the barn.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, go find out what's going
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tell them to stop

everybody stop shooting.
shooting,
MR. KORESH:No one here is
shooting.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no shooting now?

MR. KORESH: Huh indiscernible! firi --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, okay, okay. There's,

there's no shooting now,
MR. KORESH:
J
right?
No.
_ MR.
KAVANAUGH: Okay,
MR. KORESH: We never
good.
have shot.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is there any elderly people

L >
%
that might
want to come
out, you
know?
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! and
then you're >
just firing at us? How did -- what,they got the

binoculars on him? f
MR. KAVANAUGH: In the distance? we11L that

I
might be some crazy rancher. We'll,we'll check on it.
They don't think it's ATF. Put the word out, anybody
who's shootingat them --
They say they took a round from way, way off somewhere.
MR. KORESH: Hey, you got, you got, you got
1 i
!
QQ
34
the zoom on him?
Is he
ATF or what?
MR. KAVANAUGH: They got a spotting scope on
the guywho's doing the shooting. Might besome crazy

l P
rancher or redneck out there.
I don't know. We'll,

where's
we'llwe're going to put a stop to it.

MR. KORESH:Hey, could you get a --
Steve? What's the name of my buddy across the street? What's his name? Can you get RobertGonzalez on the
I
phone so
Ican
talk to
him?
I 1
f
92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh,he's, he's, he's gone.

MR. KORESH:Where did he go?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I, Idon't know wheregthey

I P
sent him.
He's notaround.
MR. KORESH: Tell him,
you know,
I--
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'll tellhim whatever you

L want.
MR. KORESH: - Ireally did like that guy,I

9
really did. I-- you know, I-- oh, they're dropping

snipers on the DoubleE?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, tell your guys t1f1ats --
just theperimeter, that's all, nobody's cominglin.

Just the perimeter, that's all --
MR. KORESH: Yeah. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- nobody's coming inl
MR. KORESH: Well, you all need to, ypu all

need to, you all need togo to the scoped rifles.
I I
35
MR. KAVANAUGH: He's telling his guysto go

to the scoped rifles. Better pass that on
indiscernible! hey,hey, and they can see them, they

can see them on the Double-E Road over there David
says.
MR. KORESH:
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Sandra. David said theycan

see agents
I
on the
Double-E Road.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we got, wegot powerful

zooms on those guys.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I'll tell them to back
up. I, Iwish we could get something out on this

I I
I
message.
MR. KORESH:
Well, let's d0 it,
let's-
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, let'sdo it.
I'Ill tell
you what, you got my word I'll you give one message,
I'll give you this second message. I'll have it
played, I'll do it first -'
MR. KORESH: See what you cando now..
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- and then you send some

kids out.
I
MR. KORESH: Not yet, no, youhave the

scholars call
I
me first.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Let me ask youlthis:

if Ican do this --
I I
I I
MR. KORESH: Is your name Kavanaugh?
36
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir.

MR. KORESH: Kavanaugh. MR. KAVANAUGH: Jim Kavanaugh.
MR. KORESH: I thought your name was Lynch. MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no, Jim Kavanaugh, that's
right, yeah, Jim Kavanaugh, um~hum. Italked to Steve

earlier, you know.
MR. KORESH: All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: We, we,we, we stopped all

the gunfire. Here's what I --
MR. KORESH: You guys located down in Waco

there?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, down in Waco, uhkhuh.
MR. KORESH: Gotthat, got

steel-walled room in there, huh?
that old steel --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, it's nothing like that. Hey David, I mean if I could get us to make an
agreement here, I can't get --
MR. KORESH: Do another thing, tell sheriff

Thorn that I really liked him.
MR. KORESH: Sheriff Thorn that you like him? MR. KORESH: Yeah, that, you know, I, I
really thought he was a decent man and everything and

tell him I'm that sorry he doesn't really know where
we're coming from and -~
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand.
Q O
37
MR. KORESH: -- of
fishing.
course, you know, tell
Harwell, you know, after we're gone he can still come MR. KAVANAUGH: You'regoing not to be gone. MR. KORESH: Well, it
going to do for me.
depends on what you all
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, we're not cominglin

there. I want to get ~
MR. KORESH: Well, it depends -look,

it depends on what you guys do for me.
look,
MR. KORESH: You got all the technology, you can hook me up, you know? People likestories,ithey -you know, or TV, come on.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, yeah,
Iknow.
MR. KORESH: And look, I'll myself make look
like a fool on TV, if you all just let me, you know, on
TV just, you know, blankit just like [gap] my words
and stuff and, and then, you know, people will like that. It's kind of like, you know, not like the
president talking, it's kind of like the [gap] g
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, thething is id, if
play - if Iget them to play this scripture, Igmean
it's I want like you to, you know, do somethinggfrom my

side, Imean -Q
MR. KORESH: I am. I, I gave you the}
Q O
38
scripture so you could know what you're fighting

against.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I understand that, but
I mean,I'm going to get it played on the radio and I'd

like to see some people that are hurt come out.
MR. KORESH: what the -~
MR. KAVANAUGH: One person, one person, that's just all, one person. Ifyou'lltd agree send
one -g
MR. KORESH: Well, you've already gotq you've

already got --
already got some people down at the, theshop. EYou'v

MR. KAVANAUGH: I don't know. I haved't been
at the shop. '
MR. KORESH: Yeah, you know, you already got

those guys, they're with you.
send out -MR. KAVANAUGH: If you
MR. KORESH: You already gotPaul Fatqa and

indiscernible!.
i I >
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. I,I wasn't awake of

that.
MR. KORESH:
You know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but I mean if yoL'd

send out any mother and child,one ortwo. I'm hot
asking you to send outall your people, I'd just,like

to get somebody maybe that's or hurt scared out,!I'll,
' let's do it.

MR. KORESH:
92 i
I 39
I'll this get playedand then we'll to go Step 2. Let,

All right.
n
Let me go run to leave,
and
ask again
and see
if a
ybody wants
you know.
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're around going and

asking again if anybod
y wants to leave. MR. KORESH: MR. KAVANAUG
DOC H
So you want to call me back?

:No, let's not hang upi Let's
hang up. I'll tell you

because what on these
what, if you want to rest
why don't you just

open line
and you and are you
lay the phone down and, and leave an
happensall is these neijhbors

phones and I couldn't ged you,
L
stuff get
know? And
everything, and talking and, care for
you and
eve and th people and
me haveto work it out.
U mean,
rything is okay if you an? me

ats the main thing. Because
, and you'reand sincere honest.

I care about my Father [gap]
:That's right.
-- in Heaven.
>
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH
MR. KORESH: MR. KAVANAUGH MR. KORESH:
:I
I care
know you
about --
do.
P l
I l
MR. KAVANAUGH
:I don't why know they pall

just religious people. Ifcant
stuff, but you know we
understand, David?
you a cult believe
when you're that the radio
says that
Do you
don't tell them that.

MR. KORESH:
But that's what they
say and
40
that's why you can't blame them.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, people
call you
that, I
don't, don't I -we don't feel that

we know you just -Come on,
way.
Imaan,
we,
MR. KORESH=
come on,
look --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, listen,

a Christian man, that'sall.
MR. KORESH: I'm not a Christian
hold it,
you're
92
man. .
Remember, the insight of theworld I'm a cult leader,

remember, let's take it
MR. KAVANAUGH:
at that.
Well --
MR. KORESH: I'moffended, not all right?
I'mhurt justbecause the seven seals, myfriend,92and

whatever God says he's going to do in those seals:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. What, what on this, get just

you're --
can weido
my best do
on this agreement, I mean, if Ican get this

And, and I'm going to do
message played?
your words
exactly, would you just -- I
mean,
I've got all these
bosses too and Imean, you're,
MR. KORESH:
Don't worry
about no
bosses,
like Isay,
us all up,
if, if
they're going to come here and shbot

and shoot us all --
they're going to come
MR. KAVANAUGH: Iain'tgoing to let
nobody
shoot you up,
I ain't going to
MR. KORESH: Well, you
let nobody
know, you --
--
>
92 I.
C MR. KORESH: I'm guy thethat's putting a
stop to -41
MR. KORESH: ~- you're going to smoke bomb us

or you're going to burn our -N0. MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: - building down or whatever,

you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: We're doing not it, I?m not

going to let them do it.
MR. KORESH: But the thing of
it is
id that
I 92
you letthem come in in the first place. Those guys are not like us,they don't know what they're doing indiscernible! they're, they're a job, doing they're trying tomakeliving, a they're trying toraisetheir families. You know, you guys from the top, man, you
just put it to me straight,those guys werescared when they came out here, those guys are probably crack shots, youknow? But no, theywere scared, you knbw
indiscernible!.
E I 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm trying to get side, it's important, very important. MR. KORESH: We told them to get
mean?
them on
our
O ut. You
know, people here aremarksmen too, you know whatI

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, I understand that.
MR. KORESH: But the thing of
it is is that,
.1
O
p 42
you know, God also has anarmy. You need to read Isaiah 13, see what can happen on you. It's nonsense to have so many -- there's no herosin this kind of
stuff, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: What's that? Hold on, David.
What'sA that? radioguy? You tell him that I --
that -- you tellthem Jim Kavanaugh he said -~1we might have a message for him to playand I-~ and he's going
to have to do it. All right. Hang on a minutei
MR. KORESH: All right. , MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, get that messaga back
to him, you tell him that I -- yeah, that's right,

okay. All right. Hold on. All right. Look -
l 1
MR. KORESH: You can tell them
I've been
wounded and shot if you want to,

happier.
that might
make92them
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well -- no, well, I donft
know -you know, I can't - you know how the news
media is? I mean, they're they do -things on tdeir own but we're, trying we're to do everything we cah to
do what's right byyou. And let's this: let's do make
an agreement. I'm to get going this thing on the air,

the word about theseven seals will be out. We'll have
an, an agreement, a couple of people, once the word
comes if back anybody wants to go and then the mess%ge

/1
92
will be out, then we'll talk further.
I, I, I
like}
4 3
dealing with you because you're guy the inchdg and,

and, and those people believe in
the world and they -Yeah. MR. KORESH:
you like no others in
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- will

to do, what you ask them to do.
do what you Uell them
MR. KAVANAUGH: But I can onlydo what my

Father haswritten for me todo, that's why those .K people aresupposed to know thatI'm crazy. not If I
did not --
MR. KAVANAUGH: I don't think you're ckazy.
MR. KORESH: -- look, look, if

stated shall be in the last days -Um-hum.
I did not show
people from the book the word of God what God has
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: -- about my coming and why92I

come this way -MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- that I will notallow anybody to believe me. You cannot be flesh and blood. Bqt what is written in the testimony from those who sthrted the Christian Church, you know, Moses [gap] Malachi -MR. KAVANAUGH: Let me ask you somethingl let
me ask you something, you may know about this. Wh%t about that thing they call the, the Ark? Do you knbw
about that? I -i
92
44
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Noah's Ark?
Noah -~
MR. KORESH:
Or the
Ark of
the Covenant? Covenaht.
MR. KAVANAUGH: The Ark
of the
MR. KORESH: Oh, it's a beautiful

I'm fixing to show you where it's at.
thihg,
yes.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no, no. Noah's Ark,

that's where all the people were saved?
92
MR. KORESH: Well that's indiscerniblk!

Mount Ararat. MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh?
MR. KORESH: It's in Turkey right the earthquake took place, the glacier
Umhum.
now.l when
busted --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
-- and
Yeah.
exposed it.
MR. KORESH: That's -- the one of the signs

at the end.
I I I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Like Noah was a messengek and

you're a messenger and, and you say your function k-
MR. KORESH= Well, no,

message is to the world but the
what happens is our

scriptures saw that it Noah's-day g
was time no longer it'd like be in

MR. KORESH: -- you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: But they
were saved,
the
, 92
Q O
45
people that
carried the
word.
MR. KORESH: That went into the Ark, yes.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, they
and --
were saved
MR. KORESH: So Isaiah testified the

Christ unless you know what he knows, as
day will
>
come when God willmake man a a hiding place [gap]in

indiscernible! says the knowledge of the holy is
understanding, fearthe of Godmade is wisdom92and of

you don't know what's on God's mind withthose sehl s
then you won't know what'smy on mind. '
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm checking with the peo ple

indiscernible!. I
MR. KORESH: If you don't know what's ow

mind then you don't know what's on the mind of thel
prophets. If
straight [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: SO --
my
we're in not perfect
harmony with all
of that
that the scripturesspoken, have not we're walking

I understand.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Man's sinner and a
--
MR. KORESH: Yeah, but there's only one

indiscernible! unforgivable.
MR. KAVANAUGH: You, you told me earlier
you --
you know,
you couldn't -- they
couldn't
understand and,and I believe you, I believe you.
that i
~ 46
MR. KORESH: Isaiah says

winged seraphim
That's because they're not here.

>
in Isaiah
~~
MR. KAVANAUGH:
6 where he talks
of the
six-
Umhum?
MR. KORESH:
-- it's the same as Revelation
Chapters 4 and 5. And Isaiah says [gap] andhe talks

about an event that'll down to the nutshell. take place to, to bring it all And so here weare at the92Day of
I
the Lord,all the prophets talkabout thegreat and

for blood.
dreadfulof Day the Lord when God will make inqu%sitio
MR. KAVANAUGH: That's today,not DavidM

M. KORESH: Oh, it is.
MR. KAVANAUGH: We're going to MR. KORESH: It's, it's a progress. I
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, your,your people are,

are going to continue on and, and you're going to
spread your message and, and, and your message is even

going to go further.
MR. KOREsH= There's agents who ATP

dead, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm not sure. There
are now
!
were
some guyshurt bad on the roof but,

know.
you know, I donlt
MR. KORESH; MR. KAVANAUGH:
They're dead. Hold on. Give me a
47
confirmation some agent's dead. I got to tell him. They heard it on the news. Okay. Check on that. I
know wehad some, some in intensive care.
MR. KORESH: Fourteen wounded --
MR. KORESH: -- two of them were dead.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Yeah, he's gotl--
yeah, that's right. Theyconfirmed, you're rigdt, four

dead.
MR. KORESH:
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Uh-huh.

MR. KORESH: Tell me --
MR. KORESH: - that we're going to belable

to present our truth. If you can lie that good that, MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I wouldn't tell you MR. KORESH: Exactly. ,
that wecould -- that there's not consequences to that.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I wouldn't lie to you,}but

that doesn't mean ->
.
If I -- and if I --
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- your word doesn't gd out.
MR. KORESH= -- if I'm [gap] wrong mh to as

you wish. I've always -- have to check my school
records, always was a good citizen --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, if,
if you
--
92
Q O
l
rewarded evil to him that wasat peace to me, that
4 8
MR. KORESH: -- you know? If I'vewrong done thenIneed to bepunished. Psalm 7 says if Ihave
there be iniquity in my hand, you know, that book is

wrong.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes.
MR. KORESH: It says, yea,Ihave delivered

them. How you get delivered?
MR. KORESH: The truth is to set you ree -MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- youknow? Then let the enemy

trample my glory to
I 92
the ground.
MR. KAVANAUGH= Yeah, I'm here, buddy,I

heard you and I --
MR. KORESH: My hearing seems be to going out

for some reason. Y
got to do something. I want to get that messagelout

for youlike Ipromised, and have they come backlto
tell you if anybody wants to go out?
MR. KORESH: No, I think they're still
MR. KAVRNAUGH: Hey, I -- we've got to,we've
checking. It's a big place, you know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, oh, Iknow it is,!yeah.

MR. KORESH: A lot of people here. -
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, Iunderstand thati I
49
understand that.
Did the kids get some dinner?
MR. KORESH:Yeah, yeah, we got some MRE's we
been-we sell MRE's and stuff [gap]

MR. KAVANAUGH: You get them MRE's?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: What's favorite your one?I

ate one of those yesterday.
MR. KORESH: Beef stew.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Beef stew?
MR. KORESH: The onlygood one there -P
MR. KAVANAUGH: Ilike that applesaucelthey

have.
r 92
MR. KORESH: Oh, yeah, that's good. MR. KAVANAUGH= That's bad, not yeah. *
MR. KORESH: Maple nut
cakes.
MR. KORESH: You all guys, you know,
things don't work out the way we want, come on and help
yourself, there's plenty of -,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh --
MR. KORESH: -- plenty of, plenty of MEs. MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, it's going towor out.
We're you and -me are going to work it out. Yoh and
me -- let me tell you something, we're - we -- :
MR. KORESH: We come from two different'
worlds, you know what I mean?
SO I 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: We, we come from two
different worlds and we're the only two peoplein the

universe that can solve this and you andme can-MR. KORESH: Well, actually,
disqualify my Father.
actually don't
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I
understand.
MR. KORESH: I've a good been boy, dmit, I

but you can say the samething for yourself. E
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I think we're ~
MR. KORESH: But do I believe in his skven

seals.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Yes.
MR. KORESH: I dobelieve in the truthfhe

'92 gave me.
MR. KORESH: You know, when youconferiwith

God you can't turn away from it.
>
MR. KORESH: You got to do the truth no

matter what they do to you.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, Iunderstand. It's

starting to hurt a little?
MR. KORESH: Well, about an houror two ago
it -~ the numbness went away and the, the biteand the

fire and the, and the indiscernible!.
I k
M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. I got your message to
1 1 I
92
51
the sheriff that --
MR. KORESH:
Harwell?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir,

message to him --
I did,
I got the
Yeah -- and --
MR. KORESH:
-- and
to --
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- Sheriff
Thorn.
MR. KORESH: He's gooda man, I like that

9uY-
MR. KAVANAUGH: He's good a man, and I|got

the message to him.
MR. KORESH:Man, I love those
guys. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH: to sheriff! Give me your
message back. You can't talk to him but give mejyour

message back that you love him and you care for him,
okay?
MR. KORESH: Of course, you know --
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, thesheriff's reply to you is that he loves you and he cares for you. V MR. KORESH: Thanks. Tell him I don'tjhold
no grudges in '88 either.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No grudges from him eidher in

'88. i
MR. KORESH:
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He just
wants all
nhosa
i
52
people out, and he, he, he doesn't anybody want hurt.

MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Do what now Brad? No, it"s

__
just
MR. KAVANAUGH: Trying to get -scripture on the radio

[gap]
play a
I
to give
us some
kids.
MR. KAVANAUGH: What's matter, the Dave?

MR. KORESH: Oh, I'm just trying to --gthese
latter days watching the baby get some titty here.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Has, has the -has --
MR. KORESH: It's beautiful. Have you}ever

seen a baby take titty from his mother?
MR. KAVANAUGH: It's beautiful, yeah.
MR. KORESH: Oh, man, you know, Christ{died

2,000 years ago for that?
Yeah. MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: You know, only Christ
is V
righteous for glory for a woman, you know?

MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, uhhuh. '
MR. KORESH: Christ came to redeem men[from

their -you know I'm songwriter, a right?
music.
-'
Y
MR. KORESH: You'll never get to hear by
} 53
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well,
would like to.
that's too-b%d, I, I
MR. KORESH:
But --

sing for me.
maybe some day you can
MR. KORESH:
One song
goes, "Three angels
flying -talk loud,
"I
can't really sing
now because I c#n't
but -MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- it
really knows
going to
goes, "Three angels flying

amongst the ba es can
in the mist of [gap] when the everlasting [gap] who

indiscernible! who
indiscernible! four
angels indiscernible!"
-- I
-- not
remember it anyway. But

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey --
MR. KORESH: -- that

of me, my friend.
took too much energyout

/
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, hey, save your energy,

save your energy. I, I, I want you to relax.
MR. KORESH: You ever been shotbefore?

but I --
I've been shot at
a lot
MR. KORESH:
Well, man, let me tell ydu
what
it's like when

good.
you get shot. First

Yeah.
of all, it
eels
MR. KAVANAUGH:
I've been shot{at and
>
54
r x
it's, it's, it's hard, you know?

MR. KORESH: It -to me it's like, it's like
it's warm, it's numb, and if

times --
you get shot two more
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Oh, man
--
MR. KORESH:
and warm and --
-- and then they're both nice
MR. KAVANAUGH:I feel for you, Dave. }

MR. KORESH: -you're kind of stunned and
then you
kind of
[gap]. I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hips broken?

MR. KORESH: Yeah, it went in towards -
close towards my belly button and went over and hit

/ 92
my --
I think
the pelvic
--
MR. KAVANAUGH:
The pelvic
--
MR. KORESH: -went around and came u? my

butt.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that's -i
g
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Ricocheted or
Yeah. -
something.
MR. KORESH:
.9 mm I guess.
Yeah, I think, I
think it!was
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Oh,

your wounds in the front, can you tell
gee, how big> is

me?
M. KORESH: Well, yeah,in the front ht

looks like
92
it's not that big,
you know?
> 55
MR. KAVANAUGH: Not that
big, but
--
MR. KORESH: In the back it's [gap]
MR. KAVANAUGH: Are you sitting up or laying

down?
MR. KORESH: I'm half laying.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Halflaying on a, on a[bed or

what?
MR .KORESH: NO .
j MR. KAVANAUGH: Just onthe floor?

MR. KORESH: Floor.
i
--ican
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can you get another
you leave the phone open and get another towel on your
wound on your backand I'll wait here C for you? V
MR. KORESH: Oh,well, I,

I'm not going nowhere [gap] I
to tell you something -
I can, you know,
don't know -r
MR. KAVANAUGH: You're brave a man, I m going
MR. KORESH: Just -- well, look, I've my got
Father, he's watching this. to tell you.

MR. KORESH: I'm -- not well, this
a little bit worse if I
MR. xonzsm
f 92
V f
time it's
.
r
MR. KAVANAUGH: You're brave a man, I'm going
indiscernible!.
1 think Wayne's --
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, is,is Wayne wih you?

;
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is Steve, is Steve okay? You
i >
I 92.
know, me and Steve talked for

MR. KORESH: Yeah.
about 45 minutes.
okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is he
MR. KORESH:
He's okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1 know we workei out

getting that all [gap].
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! you

indiscernible! ought
MR. KAVANAUGH:
know,&and
to listen.
Well, you got a bunch of -How is your side

Jim. i
Steve? >
Tape 2!
MR. KAVANAUGH STEVE: Hello MR. KAVANAUGH
V 92 STEVE: Yes.
doing?
MR. KAVANAUGH
How is he doing?
Is, is
he
bleeding a
lot?
STEVE: Well,
he's, hanging he's there in

V
but, you
know, he's, he's hurt. MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes indiscernible!
right. Look,
all square --
what, what we talked about and so we're

9
STEVE: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH
come out --
-- is the, the girls will
STEVE: Right
r 92.
MR. KAVANAUGH
-- do,
do you
have
flashlight you
could give
them.
STEVE: Do we have a flashlight

the girls? We only have big ones Iguess.
we could
give
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Anything they
could --
just
so they could see.

STEVE:
I don't want them to get

Right.
lost.
MR. KAVANAUGH:And, andthey come down the

driveway -STEVE: Right.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
slowly pull right behind
STEVE: All
-- and then we'll haveia car

your guard shack. I
right. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Now, our guys want to reel

like they'renot going
STEVE: Well,
to get
shot, you
--
know?
you know
MR. KAVANAUGH:Well, I, I take you word,

hey STEVE: Right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I
STEVE: Right.
trust you.
1
MR. KAVANAUGH: But, youknow, Imean bust
like, you know, the guys out there-doesn't wint to

get -V
STEVE: Exactly,
I understand.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, andthen the kids will

get in, okay?
0Q
STEVE: Right.
.
ss
MR. KAVANAUGH: And then we'll take them

back.
STEVE: okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And 1'11 get the kids hack

over here -=
f
STEVE: And
give us
a call.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And 1'11 let you
talk to
them. }
STEVE: Thank you. y
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?

STEVE: Okay. ,
MR. KAVANAUGH: Now, that's, that's whgt
we're to do. going Now, what I'm and we're - gLing to

get two kids? -g
STEVE: Yes, MR. KAVANAUGH: two of them. Two kids.
STEVE: Angelica and Crystal Senobe.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Angelica and Crystal Senobe.

STEVE: Six and three. ; >
MR. KAVANAUGH: Six and three, okay. feed

bless you.
STEVE: Okay.
K
?
MR. KAVANAUGH= Just hangon with me hecause

we're going to get this done here in the next few
minutes,we, but we, we've to get the gotyol know,
OO
[ 59
I don't want anymistakes andI don't want the v
commanders on the ground
you know?
to do
anything, that
we agree,
STEVE: Right,
okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: And how are the

Are they okay? STEVE: They're okay, they
little}girls?
seem to
be., I'm
looking at them right now and they're just - they're,
they're littleapuzzled of course.

MR. KAVANAUGH: would it help the older
all right
you want
L
if 1 talked to
one and tell her

and meet
to do that?
this is
Jim and she'll be

me?* Do
the man
and he'll come to
STEVE: Okay. Just a minute. Davidwants to

talk to you first. MR. KAVANAUGH: STEVE: He
indiscernible!.
Okay. know if you'd
wanted to
MR. KORESH:
All right.
Okay.
Okay. Listem
to me.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: Okay. We're going to send Sita

out.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Sita?
MR. KORESH: M. KAVANAUGH:

MR. KORESH:
Yeah, she's their Their mother,

She wants to come
mother; okay.
back.
.0
MR. KORESH: So and she'll be the one
each child out, okay?
_
taking
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Can

one time just so we can, you know,
Yeah, well Yeah. -
she take
do it --
them out
MR. KORESH: - she's going to take twoat a

time.
that's fine.
_ M. KAVANAUGH: at atime, Twookay, yeah,

M. KORESH: And like Isay, she's unarmed.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, there will beno pioblem.

MR. KORESH: And you let her come back otherwise you're going to make us real mad.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no, she'll come batk.

MR. KORESH: Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: She can walk thetwo dhildren

to the driveway.
MR. KORESH: Yeah, that way, you knowi they,
they, they -- you know, make sure -can even gait them
there.
MR. KORESH: Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: And then 1'11 the have
children brought to me and I'll let you talk toithemso
I
61
you know
they're safe.
MR. KORESH: Okay. You're going to
ut to you, right?
_
hav them
brought o
MR. KAVANAUGH:
To me,
okay?
MR. KORESH:
phone and
you two
Okay, and then they
call on
the
then youall play that thing

more out.
and we'll send

~
You've got a deal. Okay.
Now -guys. buddy, I
MR. KORESH:
hold noth
Hey man, like I

you or the ATF
said, I don't
--
ing against
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, I
love you,
MR. KORESH: They maynot understand mez but

we'll wor
k it
all out
a little
bit later,
okay?
of people
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, there's a lot

here that
love you
MR. KORESH:
and I
-- V
-
Oh, I
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I want you to know phat.
MR. KORESH: -- I wish they knew my truth.

going to
mean, the
do it and this is going to be unbelieva%le, I

people are going to know that -i
MR. KORESH: Oh, we're not murderers. I
MR. KAVANAUGH= I want you to know tha we're
MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey, I know that. i MR. KORESH: Remember that we dideverything
i , 62
in our power to stop it's just like in 1988, there was Anyway, we did ydu know, the Sheriff's Department told us dangerous people out here, you know.
kind of back thenlike what you all guys were doing

now, you know, youall were trying to makea diversion.
MR. KORESH: But oh,I wish you all had jhac

-- I wish Robert -I mean I wish more honest.
what's his name?

I asked him
Robert Gonzalez
had been
several
times to
go ahead and confess,
you know?
he chose not to. Okay. k MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. I'm, I'm, suppo%ed I'm
to get the word here in just a -l
MR. KORESH: Well, they're -- she's fixing92to

come out now, all right?
!
MR. KAVANAUGH:
All right
now, wait, hold
it
up just
because I
want to
make sure the
car comes
first
MR. KORESH: Okay.
I
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- because
to see it
I don't want heri

that she knows
1
to
-you
know, I
want her
what -you
know, andhe'ssurprised not or anything.E MR. KORESH:

MR. KAVANAUGH:
Okay. 1
And, and the car will come,
just one car. 1
MR. KORESH:
All right.
00
flashlight so, you know ~-
3
63
MR. KAVANAUGH: So just give us a minute. MR. KORESH: Remember, she's going to have a MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, that -- okay,
well see
her but I, I don'ther want - I, I'd, I'd like Her to

look out where shefeels safe and seesthe car.
MR. KORESH: Okay. All right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Okay.

getting, they're the car. Groaning sounds!
They're
> Y
MR. KAVANAUGH: Have you - is

hurting?
your
sid%
L
I
MR. KORESH:
Oh, man.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Do you got any morphine out

there, David?
92
MR. KORESH: No,don't, we don't dings. we

i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh -- well, Iwas just

thinking of painkiller.
MR. KORESH: We just, we just have alcoh
and Idon't drink alcohol, you know, I'll have an

occasional beer indiscernible!.
well, they agree, do let's it indiscernible! jst I&#

them to send the car. Come on, we're going to lose it.
Okay. All right. The car --
MR. KAVANAUGH: If we're going to do it
trying to -- hey, tell them you'll it do and I'll tell I
92
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: Uh~huh.
is coming,
okay?
F6. 92
a
MR. KAVANAUGH: It, it,
it
is
it's cdmin
from about six miles. We're not sending -- we're92not letting those guys that are onthe roadthere, okay -9
MR. KORESH: Okay. '
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- that were involvedinxth

deal today, we're, we're sending other people.
MR. KORESH: Okay.
e
that. Soin other --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay? I want you Soto Anew

k
5 5,
MR. KORESH: Bring, bring, bring a woman,}
too, if you can, you know how they're better with kid
little kids.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1, I -MR. KAVANAUGH= If we can, we'll bring a
MR. KORESH: If, if you, ifyou can. 1

woman if we can, but we're sending other agents, not
the ones that were there. They're going to come up,
they're to going drive up to

lights on --
the guard shack with
their
I
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- and

Senobe and Angelica. MR. KORESH: Yeah, and
Sita will
walk out,
we'll watch with the
> 1
car lights
come on
--
s @ es
--
Yeah, oh,
inside, and then we'll --
yeah, they'll -uhe we'll
and I'm talking about
know and then you

there.
give us
when Sita
comes back
a call back when they get

MR. KAVANAUGH:
them, okay?
Yeah, and you can talk to

MR. KAVANAUGH: All right,

and the mother has to go back. I
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tell them no
and, andhey92--
Yeah.
The mother has to
go ba
mistakes. Only the children are coming.

do us wrong on this deal
Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Now, me let tell you someth%ng

too. If you
-i
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: I'll come out after you. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:
Well, I
know, David.
No ,
I
mistakes. Okay.
We'll Is the
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
car coming
down now? 3
No, it's going to
be a few
minutes because
we don't want
to send those guys fr%m

other people.
the roadblock,
so we're going to send

Okay.
Well, I'm sending them right from

MR. KORESH:
here with
me --
MR. KAVANAUGH: ~- because I want th

children to come back MR. KORESH: to me. All right. Okay, because that --
92
66
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: You're a good man, I apprecdate

that.
I don't wanti
nobody that's, you know, out there or something that
was MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay.

MR. KORESH: -that
X
> v
MR. KORESH: Hey, you go all around andtell them that a car's coming -k
1
~- and that we're i
. 92 i
sending our kids out two, twoby-two every time they

play that
send them
thing on the, on the radio.

out two-by-two.
i
K
MR. KAVANAUGH: Every time we play they'll

MR. KORESH: Yeah. K
92
MR. KAVANAUGH: You, you got it,

We will do it, we will do it.
you got
MR. KORESH: Local radio station in Dallas

well, you know, it'll,it'll getaround. 1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, it'll get -- it's
4
already got
there --
around, it's already got
around. Is M
I
MR. KORESH: Go give, go give daddy a hug.
Okay? 5
92 67
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, do you want me to talk she mom here for a
I will?
to their
trusts me,
minute so
she can feel like
MR. KORESH: Well, you know, like, likekyou

say, she trusts me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. That's good.
>
MR. KORESH: Just make sure comes she baTk

MR. KAVANAUGH: Here -okay. Okay. Okay. MR. KORESH: Hey, and you need to bringQ -some car seats if
make sure
you can.
them in.
' 1
1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Some car seats? Okay. We'll

we seat-belt
indiscernible! K
MR. KORESH: Because some, some of them aie
MR. KAVANAUGH: You've to got bring them i here. Our agreement is - just put themon the phone Okay. Okay. I was just telling the commander that you
had tobring them here -
92
MR. KORESH: Okay. 1:

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- to me and,and sowe can
put them on the phone to you.

MR. KAVANAUGH; What -- tell me what they
look like.
MR. KORESH: Well, these two are little
is
Oriental girls. 1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. I'll bet they're

beautiful.
MR. KORESH: They'recute. really Theyfre

good little girls. '
MR. KAVANAUGH= Oriental girls,
okay.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well, I'm glad youne

letting them come out. I think that's great.
MR. KORESH: Well, like I said,you know? I

indiscernible!. E
MR. KAVANAUGH: I know what's your in heart
now,know I what's in yourheart. I 92 MR. KORESH: Hey, all I wanted to was sho%
the seals that indiscernible!. I
Mm. KAVANAUGH: Hey, David I'm telling you,
it's been on theradio, your, your, yourmessage has

gotten out more than ever, you know. I
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! pull my legoht,
pull my leg out. Oh, it's cramped. Groaning sounds!

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh man,are you okay? *
1
MR. KORESH: Groaning sounds! oh, doyou Q
know what pain is.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh man,I feel
David.
92
K
for you,
MR. KORESH:
Man --
MR. KAVANAUGH: You soundgood though. I

I
mean, you can hold on for me? You sound better.92 I

know --
MR. KORESH:
It's sad, you know.
It's -- I,
I got
to stay
alive at
least long
enough to
MR. KAVANAUGH: To getthese kidsout, come
on. We got to.

STEVE: Get these kids out, yeah.
l
92
MR. KAVANAUGH: You're good man, God a bhess

you.
Groaning sounds.!
92
MR. KAVANAUGH: You gotto hangwith me.

What you
got to
got to
do is
it.
you got
to tell
Steve too
he
hang with
lift the
trying to
STEVE: Lift the leg, lift the leg, please, leg -- back groaning sounds!. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: He said he's -that he'sE
stay alive
long enough to get the kids oud

time we run the stay with man. We got to
and he's going to message. But

this. No
send two out every
no glitches,
glitches. Okay.
STEVE: Be sure and have them play that thing

right after the two kids, okay -MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. MR. KORESH: -- and they call back here.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Get,

station on the line, okay, and tell
get the radio 1

them that we're
i $
92
going to
get two
- want
them to play the

play it
message again
until we get the
once we
children. Don't
children and
line with
then -but
somebody next
I want
door and
them to
I--
be on an open
when we havelthe
children I'll tell David
and then Iwant
it played
>
okay? That's our agreement and Idon't want any i

glitches. I'm sticking up
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
for you,
a lot
buddy.
i
MR. KAVANAUGH: I got

I118.
of people
around
92
MR. KORESH: They're too,angry aren't they?

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, they're not. Theyre92-I'll tell you, they're just lost some of your buddies, man.
MR. KORESH: Well, they have to be, you ail

MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they'rejust kind
sad. E
of
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Yeah, but
Hold on.
you know
-- E
MR. KORESH:
-- I'll do what
Ican
for them
when Iget
a good
back home, all right?

know what Imean?
BecauseIdon't, I
E
don't contend these guys because most of themthey did

job, you
MR. KAVANAUGI-I: Yeah. Man

are there indiscernible!. E
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The children x
92
71
MR. KAVANAUGH= No, you're, you're goi g to
lose this if you don't it.do I

got to do this. I
can't keep -- you've

if you don't
can't keep this going
do it.
The car's got to go. You tell them the car
goes out, the mother walks the two kids out, the two
kids get in the car, the agent leaves, they bring the
children here, I put them on the phone with David, then
we play the message. That's agreement our we and got

to do it now let's go.
MR. KORESH: They're not -scared are they?
1
they're not
K
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they just don't want to

get shot, I mean, you know? .
MR. KORESH: I understand.
5
E
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can -~ we can have two 1

agents, right?
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
,
F
MR. KAVANAUGH: Two agents in the
front,
92
that's and it, that -no
more, okay? Okay? I
MR. KORESH: That's it. E MR. KAVANAUGH: That's that's it, we're okay,
coming. 1
MR. KORESH: And then besides, you know, E
there will be a womanthere too, see whatI'm saying?
MR. KAVANAUGH= Yeah. It -- okay. Commander

passed on it's a minivan, okay, a little van.
.92
> i72
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: It's all windows in it, you

can see it.
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH:I mean,there's trichs. no
MR. KORESH: Well, like I say,we got night

vision on you guys.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, know I you got night
vision. But there'll two agents, be I mean, and, akd

you'll able be tosee, they'll pull right upto thei
guard shack.Will, will the mother havea light?
you'llit see coming.
E
i
MR. KORESH: Yeah, she'll have a flashligit,

MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. Oh, she's a goti
flashlight?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, and I'll hold - I'll hive her holdit down to the ground so she doesn't flare it
in your eyes. i
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Tell,

sees the car --
tell Steve if he
i
92 92
MR. KORESH: Yeah. E

MR. KAVANAUGH:-- if
he seesthe car send 92
them out.
MR. KORESH: Okay. i
3
92
MR. KAVANAUGH:Okay. That's -- and that's K
what -I wantto wait until
the car gets there.
73
MR. KORESH: All right. MR. KAVANAUGH: Huh? H Be sure -- K MR. KORESH: I'm tellingsome people. Be
sure ~ oh, I
fire, that
say, be sure tell
all the
guys to hold
out an
I'm sending some of the children
there's to going be a car come in the front and nok to,
not to fire on it, all right? Okay? Yeah, because

they'll going beout, okay? Go, go there and tell92
them, okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Tell everybody. That's gbod. David. That was good. Steve's a good man.
MR. KORESH: Well, he, he loves the truth.
They're it reading again. MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. E

MR. KORESH: Turn it down.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Now -- my agreement,

I'm playing it. That's it isn'tit, David? I
MR. KQRESH: That's it.
MR. KAVANAUGH: All right,

my word.
> w 92
buddy, I, I kept,
MR. KORESH: And I'm keeping mine.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. You're a good man. 1
The radio is playing it again. They're already %

indiscernible!.
MR. KORESH: Take care Indiscernible! 1

MR. KAVANAUGH: David?
74
MR. KORESH:
Huh?
MR. KAVANAUGH: We played we're I'm trying to show
it. I
mean,
you my good faith.
MR. KORESH: Well, I know, these children are not in
- like
I said,
you
this, you know it,
know? buddy, I know
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, I

it, I know it, you know.
Groaning sounds!
MR. KAVANAUGH: I can tell you're hurtingi
1
I
man, I, I
somehow. I
feel bad.
I, I
wish I
could comfort
you
i 92
MR. KORESH: Well, just

be my comfort. MR. KAVANAUGH:
at least we --
keep me a part ofkit,

know -+
Hey, that's it. We
MR. KORESH: Is the

coming in the gate.
car here now -not
>
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, no.
They're not coming
in the gate, they just pull
up. Oh, okay, yeah. Let{s
get the first indiscernible! David, is, is the mother

okay?
A
Yeah, she's, she's fine. Okay. She's not scared is
I
she? E
MR. KORESH: N0.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Okay. Good.
i i I
75
MR. KORESH: No, she knows the book.

MR. KAVANAUGH:
you.
92
in
Oh, yeah.
She believes
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
She believes
Yeah.
in God's word.
MR. KORESH: Nobody canbelieve on me emcept

they believe God's word.
Yeah.
E
> X
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: It's impossible.K

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. g
MR. KORESH: That's why no one can just lbok
at me
and talk
to me and think be like
of me being anything. everybody else, got to
That'sallowed me to
establish His equity.

MR. KAVANAUGH: MR. KORESH: Yeah. truth is the truth. But the
X
L
l 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, I,
I believe
that, I
believe that.
I think
we should be getting close here.

Go -going
L 92
MR. KORESH: Getting ready?

down. You got a flashlight now?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, man, you're taking--
you're taking too much time. Hey, car -get
send that
goddamn lose it
somebody up there, I'm going to
indiscernible! well, this is the only guythat cut the deal. Can -- well, ask them while I'm theon phone %
indiscernible! can they come over here, and we can al
O
f 92
together work them here.
9 ,
I'll keep him on.
K i vs
And tell
Wayne he's coming here. We'll work on his phone.

MR. KORESH: Can you move my leg again, please? Let's set it
one. Yeah. 92 MR. KAVANAUGH: That will be perfect because
down. No,
that one,
the other
they can
-MR. KORESH: Pick it up.
MR. KAVANAUGH: -switch on and off with me

and them.
_ 92 v
MR. KORESH: Pick it

chair. Bend it, bend it, bend
up straight.
it.
Move the
I
MR. KAVANAUGH: David's in his hurtleg real bad. It's cramping.

MR. KORESH:No, it's just -okay. Back it
up a little more,
please.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I've been on since 9:30
too but I mean, I mean I called them when they were shooting so I mean .
MR. KORESH: Little bit more, please. Ba
it upa little bit more.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! as far as
indiscernible! we'd like them to comehere, that's our
request if so youcan do it I'd appreciate -I mean,

-
we got -- we'll keep the line open. He cankeep it
open until he gets here. Leave one guywith it open,

v
f 92
77 come over
MR. KORESH:
What now?
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I was talking

here.
with a guy
MR. KORESH:
Oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
Indiscernible!
up. !
MR. KORESH: Turn it
ready to
car needs
come out as soon as we get the

to ge there, two agents and
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. There's -- they

car there.
indiscernibl
MR. KORESH: Could you pull my more? Get the cat out. Push it up.
to get
leg up
some
>
MR. KAVANAUGH: I got
them to
move
faster. They're too slow.

to deal.
I mean, the guy's wantin
i i
i
MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He don't know.
Yeah, but
92
i Q doesn't is do any good to deal with the guy who's no
the boss,
you know?
I mean
-- well,
that's true.
Let's have them go right up.

EDIE .
[gap] Yeah, she will,
92
N
Child crying!
'~ g.
David? Sir?
E
a baby crying?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Is that
3 I V
IO
E
% 78
What's matter? theS

MR. KORESH: Yeah, that's my little girl.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
What's her
Bobbie.
name?
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Bobbie. How
old?
MR. KORESH: Bobbie indiscernible! she?

almost a year.
MR. KAVANAUGH: A year, bless her heart. lshe got enough to eat
indiscernible!. 1
in there?
Oh, yeah, plenty of food.
> I
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: I have two kids, I have twp
kids myself.
right now.
I have a little
Good woman.
girl and a little
boy.;
:
MR. KORESH= Yeah. She's
getting some titty
MR. KAVANAUGH:
name?
Is
she? What's
her mom's
MR. KORESH:
Rachel.
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Rachel.
MR. KORESH:
Who is
that, Steve?
No, that
our next
door neighbors
are talking.
Huh?
E
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! get
the first
one. 92
Q _
[gap]
..
MR. KORESH:
92
V
What did Mark say?
x
isn't he?
-- whO is
79
27 3 MR.
4 7
5 Mark?
MR. KAVANAUGH: What happened, Dave? KORESH: He's probably sad

MR. KAVANAUGH: Who, who, who is
6A MR. 7 MR.
KORESH: Our -KAVANAUGH: Oh, your neighbor?

he's a good guy.
R 92
8 MR.
9 Mark,
KORESH: Our next doorneighbor, yeam, Is he okay? 1

was on the
92
MR. 10 KAVANAUGH:
11 MR.
12
KORESH: Yeah, he just
interview.
13 MR. 14 guy.
15
KAVANAUGH: okay. Oh, 1 MR. KORESH: I like that He gave usa

didn't he? i
fair chance,
5 16
17 the
18 different

kids have them dro p -h ave them
vehicle.
When they pick

put the kids i
19 MR.
20 here? 21 MR.
22 It'll be
KORESH: When do you think they'll get 92

E
KAVANAUGH: -~
'| E
and bring them to me.
upi
just a few
get two
minutes. Keep that same vehicle

more kids in a f
ew minutes. Don't
23
there but
24 make 25 minutes. .know,

Q ~
him indiscernible!. Yeah. We're-try to get it --
Okay. It'll be just
a few
yeah, we, we want
to, you
it slowly.
we're trying to do
92 92
92
=.
K 80
i I .IQ, don't want to get any of yourpeople excite ou y
know what I mean? I, I,

you know?
I'mto trying keep my word,

and tell
i
MR. KORESH: You all be sure

everyone not to fire on the car. 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, they won't.
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! all right.
MR. KAVANAUGH: We want everybody be to safe.

MR. KORESH: As long as wecan make it that way. L
i 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, can, we Iknow we can.

MR. KORESH: I'llyou bet talked to some neal
psychos in the past haven't you?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Youknow, people -- we're All different. I'll tell you, we, we, we're soall
different we and look at things so different and you k

know, when you're a policeman -I used to bea deputy sheriff and, you know, ride in a uniform car and, you,
delivered a baby once and I'll tell you it was real E

exciting, David, I'll you tell it really was, you know?
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I'm fixing, I'm fixing to
have a couple more here. -
know, Igota -- I used to help a lot of folks. Ix
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, are you? MR. KORESH: Yeah. I have two women
pregnant.
92
92 X
i >
I
MR. KORESH: Yeah.
C
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, that'sgreat.
f
i E B1
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm glad we are agreeing that
we love kids and I think that's, that's tremendbus.
MR. KORESH: You know, kid -- childrek are

the most important thing to me in my whole life.
I believe you, I
> Because you can do so much with
MR. KAVANAUGH: I know,

believe you, because -MR. KORESH: them if you know
the truth.
Um~hum. A
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: Just like

helped us in the '88 case -Um-hum.
my attorney
that
*
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH:
-- Gary
Coker.
Coker? Yeah.
MR. KORESH: We had this little
pizza party
afterwards and he says --

MR. KAVANAUGH: Pizza party?
MR. KORESH: Yeah indiscernible! he,|he

says, Dave, how do you -~ how do your children -- how
come they're so well
MR. KAVANAUGH:
mannered?
Yeah.
MR. KORESH= And I the seals, but he said no,
kept trying I don't want to
to tell know
him
religion. He
says, I just want to know how do you get
O
your children so well mannered. hum . MR . KAVANAUGI-I :Um
9 ,
x
F 82
MR. KORESH: I said, well, because they know

the truth. F
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. E

MR. KORESH: Well, anyway, he said, I can't
| i r
ask you nothing about Bible study.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. David, how did you, how did you -- you, you just know so much from the
Bible, is that from the sevenseals when you got that?

Is that how you learned?
Yeah. MR. KORESH:
MR. KAVANAUGH: That's unbelievable,
amazing. Ican't I've never

yet.
who knows -
92
b
MR. KORESH= Well, you don't nothing know
MR. KAVANAUGH: I've never spoken to no one

MR. KOREsH= Well, there's-- like
simple man's doctrine, isn't MR. it? KAVANAUGH: Okay.
it s
MR. KORESH: Just pretend you're a simpleminded man -- i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. I
MR. KORESH: -- andyou've Matthsw, read

Mark, Luke, John, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, um-hum.
MR. KORESH: You read Acts, Romans,
Corinthians Paul and says a lot of things thaqs hard

to understand, doesn't he?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, uhhuh.
get to the last book the of New Testament the after

Book of Jude, there's a revelation Jesus Chrisi's God
gave to him toshow to his servants and John was the
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, when you, when you
servant.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. .
MR. KORESH: And John wrote down that
revelation and sent it to theseven churches in Asia
and each church was given specific information about

their necessity and need. MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH: Butin Chapter 4, theme sage to
Laodicea, in Chapter4 the Angel says, come here up now John and I'llyou show that which must be hereafter.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: And John witnessed the Last
Judgment regards in to the case of this whole world. MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. i
MR. KORESH: And John saw that all the i Heaven
was called together. It's a serious thing, you know.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: There are some heavy indictments

against you boys MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum, I understandl
MR. KORESH: -- and against the

know? F MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand,
natidns, you
yeah. '
MR. KORESH: And that's why I'm her I'm like your attorney.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, uh-huh. MR. KORESH: See, I'm a mediator.
Yeah.
MR. KAVANAUGH:,
MR. KORESH: So what happened was th
question was asked in God's judgment who only worthy. Let me tell you about my world, okay? '
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, yeah. l MR. KORESH: You see, when you read te story
of Genesis --
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: - there

here wasn't there?
was already a wokld

V
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, uh-huh.
MR. KORESH: It was void and darkness the tn

face of the deep and the Spirit of God was on the face
of the watersGod and said, "Let there be 1ight,L

right?
MR. KORESH; Well, you know why thkre was a

world here before?
k 85
MR. KAVANAUGH:
No, I
don't.
MR. KORESH:
Well, you
know why
God said
to
Adam and Eve, "Replenish
and remultiply
the Earth"?
That meansput back something don't it?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I understand.
MR. KORESH: Well, tell

me about my Father
MR. KORESH: -- let
me tell
you abont
>
me.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. l

MR. KORESH: After Adamand Evesinhed, they
took of the forbidden fruit, right?
M MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, umhum.
MR. KORESH: There's one only way to teach

men the lesson thatGod learned a long time ago. God
is not what you think he is --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right, um-hum.
MR. KORESH: - you know? God says, "Behold,

man has become as one of us "
v >
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Umhum.
MR. KORESH: -- "only
good and evill"

been holy. MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
i
always
.
MR. KORESH: Now, you know Godhas n t
9
k
~ 86
MR. KORESH: All yougot to do to learn the
lesson is search the scriptures and find forevery

child that's born into this world ~-
MR. KORESH: - it has to learn good
bnd
evil. Those who realize that there are stars above the Heaventhere's and to be worlds got past Orion }MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- they realize this doesn't
work. R
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum. i
commandments Godyou're all of is you're doing lbsing

the lack of love --
MR. KORESH: You know, when you break the
MR. KORESH: -- you know? So God had do separate from men and give them a choice to do tmeir
own thing and then when men have found that their own
ways are not working and their own

sorry and sin and
ways have brought
suffering upon them, the wages of sin
is death, then God sends a message into the world and
says, Children -- talkingto me, you know? And itsays like this,Who sits on the throne -- " i
MR. KAVANAUGH: All right. i MR. KORESH: - who do yougive the book to?
92
C .
87
MR. KORESH: And so the one who loves you more than you could ever realize and it comes in the
flesh and that'swe where get our problem. After the
order of indiscernible! inGod the flesh. Anytime you

come looking like mortal man -MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.
don't, don't they one another. love You know, if a brother iswrong and erring you with yourspiri tu al, Paul says, restores indiscernible! consider you rself
least you also be tempted.
MR. KORESH: -- mendon't respect men,they
MR. KORESH: Christ says, Christ says!
II
this they shall know that you're my disciples and that

you love one another." You know, we livetogeth EI. I
mean, in the beginning, you know, getting thismany

people from all over the worldliving together -MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. p
I
MR. KORESH: -- you know, they have to

love after a while.
learn
MR. KAVANAUGH: I understand, yeah.
I 92
MR. KORESH= So, youknow, thething th at
binds ustogether is that our Father in Heaven sha
given us knowledge and an understanding and we, w

realize that in our own humanity we fell far shortof the things that weknow we should and shouldn't d D, YOU.
92
-know?
k i 88
I,
<-
92 MR.
KAVANAUGH: Right, um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But still
in this
great country
God has blessed this nation

convictions of people.
because it's said Qtsa
nation that's concerned about the religious beliefs and

MR. KORESH: Now, it says itbelievestthe

Bible. F
MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. I
MR. KORESH: Now, we have found in scipture,
I found in Israel on Mount indiscernible!.
Right.
I ;
hav
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: But the
people that
studied, we found in scripture, that

the name of love --
God require
obedience [gap]because we're all to keep the l MR. KAVANAUGH: Umhum.

>
MR. KORESH: -- butto the spirit ofHis

will. So then the will of God is revealed in seden
92
seals and
we've done so.
MR. KORESH: And we've been we're in&a

tight situation now, my friend. Z
MR. KAVANAUGH: we are, MR. KORESH: But, you we are. know -'
i E
89
MR. KAVANAUGH: But because you're aigood man

you'rewell, maybe more than man, but --
MR. KORESH: There's good, none but there's

one good in Heaven, your Father --
.
I
MR. KORESH: - you know, and far as I'm
_concerned I'm just a dixie cup. In the [gap] Psalm 89

-- you got a Bible
MR.
there with you? E
I
I
in Psalm 89 real quick. KORESH:

MR. MR.
Let's take a look at thefstory

1
92
KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: The promise to ancient David
indiscernible!. ;
MR.
it right
here
MR.
KAVANAUGH: Psalm 89? Let's see, Igot
outside?
MR.
KORESH: They're coming? The light's on

I l
said they
MR.
KAVANAUGH: they're Yeah, coming. 92They

' i
i
were --
don't you?
MR. were about -MR.
KORESH: You've got a radio onwithithem

KAVANAUGH: Yeah, they, they said t ey
right?
threequarters of a mile.
92
KORESH: Okay. They're theat gate now,
90
MR. KAVANAUGH: Do they see them thee?

>
MR. KORESH: Female voice MR. KORESH:
Are they
at the
gate now?
in background! okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Send them out so they

can *
I
MR. KORESH: Send them out and

kiss and tell them to remember --
give them
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're them sending oLt.

MR. KORESH: -- what they learned. okaydokey. Okay. Byebye. Give me a kiss. Come on.
92
Going to be all right,
okay. Remember
what you .
learned, okay? Okay. I love you. Bye-bye. Teql them

good-bye. Hey, go tell them
Yeah, okay, listen.
who Davidreally is,kokay?

Y
t
MR. KORESH:
We want you to
send them
their grandparents,
okay?
their
MR. KAVANAUGH= Send them to

grandparents? MR. KORESH: Right.
92
MR. KAVANAUGH: okay. MR. KORESH: Their grandparents are like I
i
I
people --
say know nothing aboutthis message, they're good ,

H
>
Q 0
1"..
r 92
MR. KORESH: - the Senobe's they're and in

Hawaii. i MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. How cculd I
them?
rdach
MR. KORESH:
Yeah, Scott.
I know
th but
they'll know it. Your,

didn't know what I respectful, remember
your dad treated me good,

he treated me E
Scott, and that's that all makes any differencey He

thought but that, you know? He'll do it.
They're going to call -- they're going to -are going to talk to

down.
the kids
you afterwards.
And you got their

I
address and phone numbers? Okay. Take this numher

C
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, go ahead.
MR. KORESH: The phone number is 808!

MR. KORESH: -- 689 --
--
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. 1

MR. KORESH: 4457.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Where is that MR. KORESH:

MR. KAVANAUGH:
at? 808! --
808!, right,
689 --
MR. KORESH:
- 689-4457.
name? you Do know?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Got it,
and, and
what's3their
M. KORESH: What's, what's what's, theJr
&
92
name? Kenand Mollie Senobe.
;92
MR. KAVANAUGH: Ken and Mollie --
MR. KORESH: And Cerila Vera, Cerila Vera

indiscernible!.
David?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Cerila. Where do they live,

MR MR MR MR. MR MR MR MR MR MR MR
KORESH: They live in Hawaii.

KAVANAUGH: Hawaii?
KORESH: Yeah. It's 91674 -KAVANAUGH: Okay.'
KORESH:K-I-L-A-L-H-A -Street . . KAVANAUGH: K-I-L-L-A-H-A Street ? 92

KORESH: Yeah.
KAVANAUGH= Okay.
KORESH: 1333 --
r I
KAVANAUGH: 133 --
I 92
I
KORESH: Hala, -- H-A-L-A Drive,

E-W-A, B-E-A-C-H, Hawaii.
Apartment LMR.
KAVANAUGH: right. All Give me

I got up to Apartment L-3.
KORESH: Apartment L-3 -KAVANAUGH: Okay.
KORESH: -- E-W-A -KAVANAUGH: E-W-A.
I I
line, David.
MR MR MR MR MR MR
that!last
l 92
KORESH: yeah, B-E-A-C-H. KAVANAUGH: BA-C-H, Hawaii.
92 I
9 .
93
MR. KORESH:
Hawaii.

MR. KORESH: Okay?
7
MR. KAVANAUGH: We'll in get touch with them,

okay?
MR. KORESH: Indiscernible! ;

MR. KORESH:
Okay?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Hold

one of my guys, guys here.
on, let
% brief
i I
MR. KORESH: Well, we
need to
send th
I don't want to get them spooked out. MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I understand. We
em out.
I get in touch with them, okay?This is the gran of these children that are coming out, okay? 3 if we can get in touch with them and Davidwant got to make sure, you know, they get together -MR. KORESH= Indiscernible!
dparents
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- so we're going to,Add see

going to do that.
MR. KORESH: Is there
anymore indisce
SCO 92 I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that's good.
indiscernible! hey, are you hurting, David?

MR. KORESH: You know, after a
like --
he're
while
MR. KAVANAUGH= Can you move at all,
rnible!.
' ;
if -MR. KORESH: No, I, I just
g. ,
barely canimove my
right leg
every
and then, you know [gap] we're going to

time they play this it again
Right.
send
- after -
they get
the kids
they're going to play
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH: - and
then we're going '
to -they'regoing to
come back and we're goi
send them two more until they're all gone.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. We'regoing t --
hey, he's agreeing to
send every kid, every
tim we
play two kids he's agreeing.
'
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What's th#t radio

station? *
MR. KAVANAUGH: Don't play it, don't

until we tell them. Get them on the line.
y it
MR. KORESH: Hi, son.
Hi, baby. they goin
MR. KAVANAUGH: David, are

the driveway?
MR. KORESH: Are they going down the drive-no, they'd be telling us if they did. You got akradio
with them don't you?
next room. They're there? Can you tell me is tHe
> r
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but it's, it's iri the

car
there?
Q
l > I F
MR. KORESH: Tell, tell them we're seniing
.
+
? 95
them out. They'll be - you'll a flashlight see at the

front door and, and they'll and -- she'll be dbwn there
in just a few minutes, okay? Are you there? 5

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I'm here. "
I
MR. KORESH: Okay. So tell themnot}to drive
off just,you know, get back behind that thinglthere,

if they're kind ofuneasy. Q
I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, theywill. They'll get
I i
behind the guard shack and, and MR. KQRESH: Yeah.
I
F
MR. KAVANAUGH: - and then they'll, d then

they'll go out.
MR. KORESH: No, you'll go right out to them.
Yeah. And,
you know, so okay get them ready. They'

MR. KAVANAUGH: _Are they there?
there now,right? E
MR. KORESH: Yeah, we're going --she? going

unarmed.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, absolutely.
1 > :
MR. KORESH: Unarmed. E

MR. KAVANAUGH: They lady's coming unarmed,
absolutely. We, we know that. i

MR. KORESH: Okay. I only see the -- who?
Okay. They're on their way now.

MR. KORESH: Is the car there yet?
MR. KAVANAUGH: The -- is the car there?
92 92 A
1. "'
96
voice in
the
background.!
MR. KORESH:Okay. The car is
_
at thelgate.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, and the kids are
coming. The car's theat gate.

MR. KORESH: And the
just a second
5
be out in
children will
or two.
good.
,
E
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're coming out in just a

second or
two. Okay,
MR. KORESH: And then you'll when you -when they
get there you'll have them talk to us, right? MR. KAVANAUGH: When I get -when they get
1
right here
okay?
to
me I'm going tohand them the phon,

I >
to talk
to them
MR. KORESH: Yeah, because their mother wants

bad.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, I understand, we'#e going todo that. ;
MR. KORESH: Okay. You got theBible dew?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah,got I it. Are, %re,

are they coming out for -
MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're coming out.

not going to let you down on this.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Iknow MR. KORESH: Okay. You
you won't let m got Psalms 89 o
own. n?
MR. KAVANAUGH= Okay. Wait
a minute.
| 92
vid
can't see them. He
thinks they'recoming out

If the
car's there they're comingout he

MR
said
KORESH: Yeah,well, they'llbe out.

Just tell the guys
MR MR MR
to be --
KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
KORESH: --
don't be uneasy.
yeah, just be patient,
KAVANAUGH: Yeah,
He --
he's sending them out. a radio so we can talk
we need
to get
a car with
'
to them.
Well
I guess. MR. KORESH: They're uneasy
MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, they just -sent a van that

talkie -MR. KORESH: Oh --
they, they
a walkie
I
didn't have a radio
or just
I I
MR. KAVANAUGH: -- sothey couldn't reahh

them and that's what the delay MR. KORESH:Get, get know, make sure no is. a radio
I
so we can, you
mess-ups happen.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. What I'll isdo dn the

next time -MR MR
KORESH: Uh-huh.
> l 92 I
x I
KAVANAUGH: I'm -~to going put themqin a

different car
MR
--
KORESH: All
right.
..
time, not this time, with a
i
l ea
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay? Different car _l1:he next

big radio so we can talk to
them and we don't have anymore of these delays because

we got to get these babies taken careof. !
MR. KORESH: Yeah. i

MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!

to be enlightened?
Okay. Are you ready

Go ahead.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now,
David is promised by
God that God would rule over Israel through his seed. So Davidwrites in the psalm and the Psalmis 89. You
got it there?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, wait, hold
one sebond.
If theytake that
lady indiscernible! something and

Make surethey know.
he's going to get real upset.

going back. Is that
David saidthe lady doesn't want to
go andthat she's
come back and
-- that's right, isn't it David?
MR. KORESH: Yes, she wants to
she'll bringing be out each of, each of the children.

92
92
a
1
MR. KAVANAUGH: She's going to bring outiall the children. She's back. coming She's going to bring
them out every time, the samelady so we have the same
drill. No mistakes. All right. Okay. Go ahead.

MR. KORESH: They understand there, right?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, they do.
i
92
~ Q 199 KORESH: Okay. KAVANAUGH: 89. Psalm

KORESH: Got it there?
i 92
KAVANAUGH: me Let look here, yeah waita

KORESH: Indiscernible!
KORESH: Psalms --
KAVANAUGH= Wait Okay. a minute, one %KAVANAUGH: Psalm 89, what number?
KAVANAUGH: Psalm 89.
KORESH: Okay indiscernible! you know,
what mean I Psalm by we're 89 to read going the whole '

MR KAVANAUGH: Oh, okay.
MR KORESH: Okay.
Baby crying!
MR KORESH: What's,wrong what's with her?
Okay She don't to leave? wantWho? Indiscernible! The car is she out there now? The car's driving
Indiscernible female voice in the
background !
KORESH: Okay. So they're - I guess

they got them
now.
them, the
car
KAVANAUGH= says David he thinks they got is driving away. Tell usright away, we
0
need to know. Okay.
MR. KORESH:
9 ,
E 100
I think we got them and -5
door. What They can't open the
do you mean you can't open the door? Our front door
is, is jammed? well -voice in the lndiscernible female
background! E
M. KORESH: Why isit driving

MR. KAVANAUGH: Where is the
away for?
car?
MR. KORESH:
Yeah, let
them, let
them,
them go out the

out there.
back or something or just get

need to
Hold on.
the
kids out.
We need to, we
MR. KAVANAUGH:
get these
Indiscernible voice in the female background.! E

MR. KORESH: No, make sure it's the front.
Just open a window or something,

window.
let them
go out t
background.!
voice
in the
M. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, but

for the car indiscernible!. MR. KORESH: But they - the
~ they're loo
car left? have left.

I 1 r
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, it couldn't
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay. They

out.
MR. KORESH:
Okay. They're out.
101
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're there. out Now,

it the kids out or the car is out there?
is
out
MR. KORESH:
The -okay,
the, the
car is
there they say
but then they said
it started
leaving.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Oh, it

leaving.
wasn't, itweenie
MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay. Okay. That's

good. All
children?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Where's mother %he and the

92
right.
MR. xoazsn: She's they're -the wa% out on

DOW.
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're on the way

walking down the drive?
out now
1 .
MR. KORESH: Get a radio, that

know whether, you know, they see
MR. KAVANAUGH:
with a radio. Get a car
that.
way you can

I
the flashlight.
He's tellingme to get a

with a radio next time!
car
We're going to do
MR. KORESH: Okay. }

MR. KAVANAUGH: This thing -- it was just
glitch, David, on the walkie andthe reasonwas we were

trying to, you know, use the van that had all the
windows so, you know, none of your guys would thin
@-
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I know.

MR. KAVANAUGH: That's all, buddy, it
i
was 5E
-a
K ? 102
I
that's the only thing.

Imean,
You, you know howthingsiwork,

you know -messes
sometimes communications,
MR. KORESH: Just make sure nothing

up.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Nothing will
mess up.
*
r
MR. KORESH: It'sresponsibility your now.

MR. KAVANAUGH: The kids are coming? i
MR. KORESH: No, we just -- Sitas got do

come back.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, they see

Sita will come back.
the ligh
MR. KORESH: Keep down Jess, okay.
So,
psalm says 1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay, the and kids are cohing

down with a flashlight with the mother.
1
MR. KORESH: They see it, right?

MR. KORESH: Okay.
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're coming. E

MR. KORESH: You love those kids now as long
as youcan. i
1
MR. KAVANAUGH: Wait. Tell

here and tell me
on a minute, David.
Chuck to come
indiscernible!
there? Man
in
I
something. Chuck
Is, is the truck
you're to lose going this. Drive some goddamn truck is

the gate. i
103
MR. KORESH:Something's messing up, huh? MR. KAVANAUGH: Well, I,

communications, the, the walkie-talkie.
Ithink
it's just
Indiscernible male voice in the background.! MR. KAVANAUGH: All right, a car? It's okay
if it's a car just sendit. He just wants you
td send
I
MR. KORESH: Make sure they don't try

her.
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, the kids are at thexguard

shack waiting. The kidsare at the guardshack waiting. Okay. Just tell you guys it might be a car
instead ofthe vanwas slow but

going to be just one vehicle.
we're it's, E
1 i
MR. KORESH: Okay.

MR. KORESH: It all going now?
M. KAVANAUGH: I don't want themto get --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah,Ithink it's [gap] eyI Iwant to apologize to you for the delay. Ifeel real
bad about it.
MR. KORESH:
People are
human.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, I guess that's wha
is, youknow. We're all human and we're trying and

3 work. Iwish it could go alittle quicker but Ithi%k
we're going to have it in a few minutes. i
you're trying and, and that's what's going to make i
.", "
what are ~-
I
E
104
.MR. KORESH:are What they saying? What,

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is the car there? All right.
It's coming.
MR. KORESH: Okay. I

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. It's --
MR. KORESH: Ready for the psalm?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, go ahead.

MR. KORESH: Psalm as.
K
1
X I
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. E
MR. KORESH: It says, "I will sing of the

mercies of the Lordforever: with my mouth will I make A
known thy faithfulness to all generations. For I said
your mercy shall be built up forever: faithfulJess thy

know where God sit on the throne Revelation, in right?
He's a rainbow got over thisthrone don't he? R
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir, yes, sir.
David and David is talking about God. "I've
covenant with my chosen,"
have sworn unto David -"
shalt thou establish the invery heavens." yo? Now,

E
made
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, that God spake tq

that's the seven seals.
MR. KAVANAUGH: I'm afraid they're going t
turn around and go back if they don't geta car therel

Okay. They see the kids, David.
l
MR. KORESH: Okay. They
see them?
i 92
' 105
MR. KAVANAUGH:
They see
them and
they're,
they're getting together right

' MR. KORESH: Okay.
now, I
think.
take her,
H
she
Just don't
don't want to go.
MR. KAVANAUGH: He's talking to the
kid -1
the agent's talking to the kids.

stays there.
MR. KORESH:
Make surethe mbther
She'll bring
out other
on t
her
MR. KAVANAUGH:
rest. Don't
there.
And she'll bring out

doesn't --
take the
mother. She
MR. KORESH: Baby indiscernible!

[gap] so what's going on now?
MR. KAVANAUGH: I, I -- tell me, tell
yes, yes
mei
something, I want to tell him,
he wants to know.
MR. KORESH: Okay. They're driving off nbw?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: FEMALE They driving

off? K
MR. KAVANAUGH: All right. They're getting

in the car he said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: They'redri

away. L
MR. KORESH:
They're driving away now.
MR. KAVANAUGH: They're, driving they're 92

away.
MR. KORESH: Sita's coming back?
92
.'k
I 106
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Sita's Cbming
back?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Sitas coming

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
back?
SPEAKER: Yes.
MR. KAVANAUGH: All like

MR. KORESH: Okay.
we agreed.
P
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay?
MR. KORESH: Good boy.
MR. KAVANAUGH: All right. Now

another carwith a big radio right from
listen, 1
Double-E Road
1
that's going to go in and get the next set of kids
okay? And bring those kids here. Okay. Dave, wei we
got them. We're -MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay.

92
Ready?
MR. KORESH: Verse 3, "I have made a covedant
with my
chosen, I have sworn
unto David my servant, thy
seed will I establish forever,

wonders, oh Lord: they
and build up thy throne

they
i
>
to all generations. And the heavens shall praise

faithfulness also -"
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! repeating

of it.
all
MR. KORESH= Are you
listening? go ahead.
MR. KAVANAUGH=Yeah, Iam,
talking --
I'm here. Your
seed and Iwill
establish
v
forever --
I I v 1
107
C,
to all --
MR. KORESH:
Yeah
-r 92
MR. KAVANAUGH: ~- andbuild up your hrone

MR. KORESH: -David's, David's seed, that
was Christ
wasn't it?
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir, uh-huh. K

MR. KORESH:Okay. So who Christ is, right? among the sons of the almighty"?
MR MR. MR.
it says,
"For who in i
the heaven can be compared unto the Lord?" You kow
MR. KAVANAUGH: Who where -- says, it "Wo

KORESH: "Can be compared unto theLdrd?"
KAVANAUGH: Lord, uhhuh. E
I
Almighty can
MR. MR.
KORESH: "Who among the sons of the

be likened to the Lord?"
E
92
KAVANAUGH: All right.
Lamb, right?
MR. MR.
KORESH: All right?

KAVANAUGH: Right.
I mean, only th
indiscernibl
M. MR.
KORESH: And God's going to reign
e! his faithful,
KAVANAUGH: Right.
he means what he says.

to be feared i
KORESH= "God is greatly

the assembly of the saints" --
92 >
M. KAVANAUGH: Okay. MR.
92 E
KORESH: - and to be had in reverenc

E
92 I
E
> 92
108
1 of
all them
that are
about him."
2 MR.
KAVANAUGH: Um-hum.
3 MR.
5 Lord
6 7
KORESH: That's why, "Oh Lord God of

like unto thee?" -l
4 hosts-- "whichis my Father, " -who is the strong

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. K
MR. KORBSH: " -or to they faithfulnesh round about thee?" which -means you're to do going
just what he says in that book, right? T
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yes, sir.
MR. KORESH: "Thou rulest the raging sea,"E
which is the heathen raged. that The prophecy E says

92 1
that the rage
of the great ocean the sea. "When thei

thou will still them or thou i
C
,
wavesthereof arise,
stillest them, you know, God's to going put the i enemies out after this. "Thou has broken Ra-had in
pieces, as one that is slain." Now, Ra-had was a i
harlot in Jericho the andway she was saved, wasnwt she

really killed with therest of the people, the reaso but -- the reason being is, is that the spies came i
and they were being searched out -MR. KAVANAUGH: Right.
MR. KORESH= -- and they cameto her house
and they asked her to helpthem. Well,she had known
the God of Israelwas greater than her god, risked her

own life in trying to defend the spiesof Israel. So
92 x x
'
city --
' 92
1 109
there?
they made a covenant saying, look, when we destroylthis

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hey -MR. KORESH: Are you
MR. KAVANAUGH= Yeah, I'm here.
&
MR. KORESH: -- we will spare
you and all
that youbring intoyour house so she was the only i ordained minister from God and all she brought to her
house they were saved. But shewas asshe was
indiscernible! spiritual --
MR. KAVANAUGH: Um-hum, Iunderstand. k

MR. KORESH: indiscernible!
Now, the way I get rid
a strong
arm.
the
of my enemies is I teach
seven seals and peoplerealize they can't fight against
God -MR. KAVANAUGH: Right. I

M. KORESH: -- because,
"The heavens are >
thine and the earth is also thine, as for the world and
everything thereof, thou has founded them. The north,
the south, thou has created them: Ta-bor and Her-moni

shall rejoice in thy name." 'That's the places where
Deuteronomy 32 about the end of Moses hadvisions in
the world. "Thou has a mighty arm: strong is they

hand, and high is thy right hand." God imposed his
word inheaven. He said this is
what I'm going to do

I I
MR. KAVANAUGH:
Right.
i E110
l
MR. KORESH: I'm going to send my son hack

again this
I'm going you know,
those who
time being a sinner

to have
and those
like the
gentiles and
to the gentilds,
and
him teach
the truth
it will
who receive
be redeemed
fight against it I'll make an exampleib of

of all the world.
Umhum.
r
the sight
MR. KAVANAUGH:
MR. KORESH:
"Justice and
judgment
truth
are the
habilitation of
before they
they throne:
face," that's me.
mercy and
shall go
l I

MR. KORESH: you all guy's butts -MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah.
See, before
God
k comes
and whips
> 92 92
M. KORESH:
seals, man.
-- I'm trying to
teach
E
the seven
MR. KAVANAUGH:
I understand.
MR. KORESH: unlocks the mysteries.
This the
key of
David,
it
MR. KORESH= "Blessed the people are that jjy

the know the joyful sound:
right now,
they shall walk, oh Lord, See, my Father is

> 92
in the light of
watching me
Tape 3!
thy countenance."
he's --
K I
111
MR. KAVANAUGH: We on now? Is it comingon?

Red light?
Telephone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, David, they just mbved

[gap] they're not coming toward you.
then it quits. The batteries are right.

batteries?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It starts FEMALE nd
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3:You need

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Umhum.
STEVE: Yes?
92
MR. KAVANAUGI-I: The news conference. okay.

What happened? Ididn't hear it. 3
STEVE: Well, anyway, David wanted to know if

you got his message out yet on the airwaves. I
MR. KAVANAUGH: No, that -no,
here's what I
was trying to work out with David. Ican get the y

message played - Iknow, but he, he just --
STEVE: I'm going to get off the phone
because, you know, that's, that's thing the that -- he

said to you andthat's what's going to be.
M. KAVANAUGH:
STEVE: Yeah?
Steve?
'
MR. KAVANAUGH: Can Italk to him?

STEVE: You walk to talk -no.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Well, I, I really want
92
QQ
s i
-F 112
to do
92
it, I
want to
et1't g on there but, you know,
we've, we've already put one message on there and +STEVE: I haven't heard any.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah,David ear STEVE: We want to
MR.
hd
it. [gap]
92
resolve it.
KAVANAUGH: wantIto resolve it,and~you

make an,n R
g
to h ave
do too. And whatI'm saying is; let's

agreement -goin
to -I, I want to get some kids or wounded okly? out,

I'm going to do the thin one message, you know.
sack -the sack.
it played and then I'm going
gf ' irst.Wealready ve plage

[gapJay Ok .E Okay. I
need to
3l 1 1;! 'YI|"i92l|'92|192,92I92'|||92vi||92';i|I||P"||92 1 ll, 123 11 /l__92> 14567 92{{92 1 111 C 89012 1 ;1 rt-r"'92Y 1 222222 3 456 789 LIE: 0 12345
Sm m O mm wm TA Fm mw OT QWU O mm 3 um 9 9 1 h C I a M 678 O 1 2 I, 1234 K 23 ll 190 _ 45 1 11 123 1 4567 11 2222 89
92
Tape 4!
Phone ringing! MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible!
MR. McGHEE: Jim, this is Roger McGhee. !

MR. KAVANAUGH: Just give meyour -have him call you. What's your number?
Indiscernible! the number. ' MR. McGHEE:
I'll;
I
i
MR. KAVANAUGH; Give me MR. McGHEE:
What's the number here
indiscernible!. Thank you, 468-MR. KAVANAUGH: Did you guys call have one of indiscernible! what's, what's the
V ~
those
indiscernible!.
Phone ringing!
MR. KAVANAUGH: Indiscernible! This
k
1
is Jim.
I
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Hello, #1: Jim, is

this Waco?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE IndisCernibl%! #1:

at the airfield. V
MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Hold on just a minut%. Get me somebody in therewith phone a numberthat's g
indiscernible! that the indiscernible! guys can call.
Give me a phone number,

6605.
give me a phone number
867-
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: 867 what?
MR. KAVANAUGH:
6605.
3 3
>
I
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #1: All right.

I'll call you right back.
M. KAVANAUGH: Thank you. Hey, there's 3
Air Force captain bringing in more FBI and you need Io

hook themup with the -Mr.
is send them out first thing
Gay, the, the airport

in the morning.
manager indiscernible!Imean, the worst he could say

Imean -UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Can't leth
harass indiscernible!.
MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, that's true. ;

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2:
MR. KAVANAUGH: Iam too.
Indiscernible
Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2= lndiscerniblie

MR. KAVANAUGH: Airport manager -- I'll tell
them. Imean, Ithink we can do it. Imean, he's *
going tobe in jeopardy but Imean,you load them up I

with, with vests and a helmet and but still, Imean -
yeah, but they're kids. That's right. Oh, Iagree, yeah, and we get the ~- Imean a school bus is a ,
nonthreatening thing.
get something.
I'll talk
back
to Phil,
to bend
maybe wecam
a little ~
Hey, we all got
indiscernible! come
> v r
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Yeah, but #2: She?

released. i
92
MR. KAVANAUGH:Indiscernible!
yeah. Yeah.:
>
OO
92 i
-
who is
that? l
GARY: You asked me about wounded,
I guess?
}
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, yeah.

are hurt inside?
How manypeople
GARY: Well,
right off
the truth
is
x dont
know. I
heard David saying when they were asking him,

there was a leg wound to one
he was talking about
person, another
it was
person got it
girl that
in the
hand and I gue
a two-year-old
got killed. girl was
MR. SCHNEIDER: A two~year-old

killed? E GARY: Yes, was shot.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: That's
Yes, was
terrible.
shot.
'
MR. SCHNEIDER:
And I'm not sure
about -
think there
might have been another young one, a small

I'm not certain yet. GARY: Did, did you know the little girl?
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn't get to find out wh
one that might have,
it was because I've been on the phone almost totally

i the entire time
i l
GARY: Yeah,
yeah. '
92 i
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- from this morning on so I} haven't been able -- I've talked to a lot of people
about a lot of things.
L 92
GARY: Yeah,
yeah.
Well, how
do you think ~
I I
Imean,
with the
situation that's
gone on
so far
an
the, the
tragedy that's, that's, that's been on both
sides? Howdo youthink we might

this so that we can, we can
be able to resolve
-I
take care
MR. SCHNEIDER: ,know, that's where Ifeel
Well, that's what -that David
you 2
-- I'm here
because the
many --
man who has had the ability

all the Bible and,
to harmoniz
--
in fact
and made
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- it
very clear.
So
know, it would -- Iwould rather, you know, let you

talk with him --
GARY: Sure, MR. SCHNEIDER:
I--- about that.
92 > 92 phone i
GARY: -- Ido want to talk to David later.E

MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. He'son the
right now in fact, but -4 92
GARY: Yeah,
is he
doing an
Ibelieve
interview now?
he is --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Uh-huh.
Yes,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
- or
Iknow
his mother
called there called and,

and there
and left
a message that she

here or there --
wanted to be like that

~
i
you know, he's talked to a few

are relatives
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- they get
a line
on the
i
6 1 radio 2 and -GARY: Um-hum. MR. SCHNEIDER: -ou k y now,
so he s trying
to alleviate
the --
GARY: How opportunity to
does he
feel by, --
by having
an
explain things
MR. SCHNEIDER:
indiscernible!.
Well, you
know
GARY:
about it?
-from
his side,
that he
feels bette
MR. SCHNEIDER: Iopportunity -GARY: Um-hum.
He's happy to have
the
I I I
I
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-to
be able
CO talk
with
people and
anyone, we
we don't want to
want everyone
force our
beliefs upon
always to --
have the
indiscernible! to,
GARY: Um-hum.
to evaluate
I I I I
I I I
MR. SCHNEIDER: -thereby

verdict or judgment to
GARY: Sure.
giving a
hear.
good
what they
M.
there, if
SCHNEIDER: And
if they
--
I don't that it's I
it's not reasonable and

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- and
concise and
so forth
well, you
know, that's the freedom that God has given
I I I
I
92
00
I 92
every one of us.
.
yeah.
l 92 s > ?7
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, that's the way
it's been. But, you know, Imean we, we were always?
hoping that music would be the very vehicle that we 1

might be able to went to a lot
of them.
GARY: Uh-huh.
make a statement to
the world
in a i
i
very common, decent way. But David,you'll find out he

of churches. I went with him to so man
MR. SCHNEIDER: Went up against the they could not controvert

GARY: Um-hum.
scholar
the doctrine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, when you can go to ai

Bible and not give an opinion in theory but answer
every question with chapters and context. Isaw
1
scholars that were 70years old, one man could speak 60 languages, they had nothing to say in response because
they knew the man had something.
GARY: Well, you know, I - 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like
when I tried to
3
controvert him for quite some timebefore I actually

became involved.
GARY: Well, David is obviously very

important in
r
your life. MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, it's, it's, it's in
K V I 1
92 I 1
I
that if he has the truth because I
U
18
want to
live .
gforever. Ever
since I
GARY: Um-hum.
was a very
small child
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I've always like yourself

looked up where are we
vast expanse
at the
stars and
wondered why is this did we get here,

*
--
going, how
about?
GARY: Yeah.
what's thi
MR. SCHNEIDER:Why is this

everything dies years of
pleasure
earth a cemetery
6,000 o
and
here, plants,
people, animals, We get a little bit

and fulfilled
woe and human history.

but we're never satisfied
relatives can
accidents. God,
be taken out of
your life,
friends,
what's going on?
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yeah.
Who are you, God?
MR. SCHNEIDER: But I've never really to know God. I tried it the Christian routine
claimed for the
majority of
really known
my life
and in honesty,
I mean, I've never

know God.
God but I've always wanted to
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Indiscernible! claim
to know
him now, but I
do see something about a book
that's
very logical and clear and this man alsohas opened

very deep sciences, physics, astronomy and these are
up
the things
that not
many have
gotten to
hear recent
iy
but those
that have
gotten to
sit down to the
and study place where
indiscernible! would
have gotten
you'd gotten have to hear those things

been totally astounded.
GARY: Yeah.
and wouldhave
i
MR. SCHNEIDER:
But --
GARY: You know, I've just been handed a note

that David -I guess David did a radio interview and
that's, that's been completed. how, how is he feeling

M. SCHNEIDER:
It --
you know, I --
with his
He said
injuries?
he's sore.
i 92 $
I E
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yeah, well,
yeah, well,
that's what he said,

talking all day long.
GARY: Yeah.
he's sore and, you know, he's bee GARY: Boy I wouldthink he'd more than sorei
MR. SCHNEIDER:
And so far,
I mean,
>
everything -so --
he's doing okay. He was bleeding earlie
in the day but that's all been

GARY; Well, of confusion inside. You
MR. SCHNEIDER:
stopped andeverything
there must -'
there must, must be

Well --
be a
lot
today and
indiscernible!.
GARY: --
all wondering
what, what's happened
1 @ l
| >
110
MR.
is IGARY: -Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: Well,
the
truth of
the matter
MR. SCHNEIDER:
- what
indiscernible! the
very onset
of
the
thing-r I
GARY: Yeah. MR. SCHNEIDER:
Imean I was standing righti

all of a sudden Iheard this
92 92
near the front door and Ihad justwalked a way down a

little ways from it when
bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and

outside.
GARY: Um-hum.
I mean coming from

the
MR. SCHNEIDER:
about, "Stop, we've got
I heard
women and
him yelling
children here."
somethin
remember him yelling that,

And that's and windows
I heard it
very clearl just ripped
Y.
when I saw the walls being

and all GARY: -Yeah.
up 1
i r
x 3
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: It was,

GARY:
topsy-turvy after that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
it was
amazing.
of turned
Iguess
everything sort
I I
i
we, we like -agents or
we don't -I
don't know any of

I, I -- you
your
know, I
anything like
that but
Yeah, know, andhis I life mean have great'respect and like heyou hashad all
the law
and people involved and
trying to
protect
for
1 1 1 others
2 3
freedoms and,
and --
ll
GARY: Well,
it's a shame. I
think so
many
times in history
things happen
conflicts get started and unfortunate

and it's -Yeah, and I'm not sa Yins
i 1
MR. SCHNEIDER:
indiscernible!.
GARY: -- because people don't really

understand each other.
I v 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:
I m not blaminganyone, but92

on
there -definitely
GARY: Yeah.
it was confusi
th ere. I
mean -4
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I
would have given
anything in this world if, if

92
- like,
like David sai
he had hoped that Robert would have gone back toyou and saidthis manis really interested in showing the E Bible andhe would have loved to sit down with you
_people -GARY: Yeah.
dl
1
x 1
i 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, and answer any questions, if you would have hada warrant for him he
would have bee
n happy
to go with you.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And if youwant to know why we have been -- like if you hear the interviewhe has
just done onthe radio,

why we were even
having any weapons whatsoever. It ls
he'll you let know the reasons ?
92 . 92
O I '
92 F 1 2 3 4 S 6 7
. I
3 12
it's biblical a thing.

against anybody.
GARY: Yeah.
It's not against you, it's dot

A
MR. SCHNEIDER: But it
goes back
to the
of Luke, Chapter 22, verses 36 through 38, but it ha%

to be seen inlight of the Book of Revelation and the92
writings of the prophet. D
k
Beck
r
GARY: You know, Steve, Iknow we've just met I

1
and just
that I
getting to
know each other, but

and, and will, will anybody in
you know
understan
hope, Ihope
don't want
you think
don't want to see
there hurt
and I
to see anybody outsidehurt. 3

M. SCHNEIDER: Ireally appreciate that, I
do
GARY: And, and

C
Igenuinelywant tosee if wel
an't resolve
this. A
1 92
good. see if w h E by which
on out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right,

C an devise we
GARY: And I'd like to, I'd like to , method
aa
we can put these
apons down
li
and come
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat we would

ke to talk to
GARY:
you about.
well, I
d be glad. I think -~
1
92 >
MR. SCHNEIDER: Negotiate and

ndiscernible!.
GARY: --
Ithink
we can
do that,
Ithink
we
r
92 A 92
<
can do that, I'm, I'm I don't -have any doubt of Iknow you're concerned about your security in thene
based on what's happened but Ithink -MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: -but Ithink we can, I think we can

address thoseconcerns in a way that, that you find
I
appropriate suitable and and that we can, we can get92 this matter attended to. I mean, I'm - there's, just
there's much not sense for this to continue on and MR. SCHNEIDER: Iagree, Iagree. I'd like to get back to wherewe were with Jim y on the92 }
~
I s
GARY: -- and haveadditional people hurt. E
children. I'd like to
see if
we can
-that's --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah,
N 92
92
GARY: -- get somemore kids out. What do FE

you think? E
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that sounds good to m

In fact -'
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Jim had kind of suggested 92
that, you
take a little
know, hisbeing tired and soforth that we'd

-GARY: Sure.
92
L v
I 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- break

GARY: Yeah.
and a rest.
i 92 >
MR. SCHNEIDER: A lot of themare laying down

4
14
and sleeping
now so
GARY: Um-hum.
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and,

is quite tired, you
-experience and
you know, everybody

all such an'
k
know, hyped up after
GARY: Yeah,
yeah. -
MR. SCHNEIDER: So for that reason I was kihd of formyself, not so much David's but part, Iwas kind
of happy just to take a little break. I'll -course --
v 1
K
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
well, I'll,
But of
GARY: --
you know, it's, it's always a nic
thing when, you know,we've so got many people out her from so many different organizations and agencies. ,
when westart demonstrating that we're having children come onout and that everybodys healthy and when, wheni
you see that we've brought them here and they're 92 in

good shape it just creates a real good feeling on both
it does,
and -sides, don't you think?
MR. SCHNEIDER:It does,

we want them to be out, you know,
because we,
92
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you

I 4
can look
at them
and
check them
over and
GARY: Yeah.
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, see that they're
92
1
} I
ihealthy and
--
GARY: Yeah, I
of the
saw them here, the,
the, the
ladies from
kids and
the Child
there's genuine
Yeah,
So, how
Service are
taking real
affection and
good dare
-x
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yeah.
another two out?
we appreciate
that. 1
can we work to
Well,
get
3
&
MR. SCHNEIDER: even now if you would like.
we can start doing
that
l r
GARY: Sure,
I would.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to

GARY:
i l 92
go on.
do tha
Yeah, I
really would
like to
MR. SCHNEIDER:
I'm talking to Gary who has
replaced Jim.
Jim is getting some rest right
now
if you would like, you know,he's willing to keep on I

working and remove morechildren if
GARY: Um-hum.
you want.
is that
talking with,
Steve?
MR SCHNEIDER .:
Does -Okay.
David you're
92 I 1 92
l 92
talking to
him right
GARY: Yeah.
no W and
--
David is
-- I'm
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and he's been happy and he
likes dealing with Jim, he'sso been forthright and -GARY: Yeah.
honest with
MR. SCHNEIDER:
him.
-- frank
and, and open and
1 16
*GARY: Well, I
MR. SCHNEIDER:
to him
p GARY:
think now,
In fact,
you -here's what Jim said
indiscernible!.
Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: anybody but
He said,
"Don't deal with told David. S

92
me," that's what he

GARY: Well -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER:Even when another faction,

the Sheriff's Department, had
another phone line -GARY: Yeah.
i
1
Wayne indiscernible!
3
'
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I
understand many
opposi
and different
things than
what Jim -- Jim
says, "No,
i
k I >
David, let's you and I deal on this all the

through." And David says, "Because of
way
all
what he
showed -- "GARY: Yeah.
5
k
i
v
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- "--
his honesty,"
and,
I I
and, you know, youguys showed that you

you were saying and it was working out wants to continue I
were doing what

very well so he
l b
guess the same program with Jim,
that's what he was just telling

GARY: Yeah, well,
me right now.
Ithink we can continue
the same problem but,

you've talked --
but, but
it'll be with me now

X
because Jim's gone, but, you know,Steve, you've,
l
1 .
2
_
GARY: --
R K
3
17
I for a while
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'swhat he you've talked with me
3 now and, and David hasn't and Ithink

4 depend
5 MR.
maybe Ican
on you
to, to
tell David
that ---
SCHNEIDER: Well
6 GARY:
7 and, and, and
-you
he also
know, Gary is just

cares for --
like Jim
8 MR.
9 minute.
SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! just a

' '92 r i ,
10 GARY:
11 me.
Sure, Iwish
you'dthat. do Excuse
R
F
l
12 Gap!
13 MR.
14 GARY:
SCHNEIDER: Gary?
Yeah?
15 MR.
SCHNEIDER: Here's David.
X K
David? 1
16 GARY: 17 MR.
Okay, okay, Steve. Hi, KORESH: Gary?
20 21
ii X 3 a
1 :
23 MR.
KORESH: Well, I'm, I'm

GARY: Hi, David.
E24 story.
18
25
19 MR.
KORESH: Yeah.
GARY: David, how are you feeling?
MR. KORESH: A little
pain, a little pain.Q

telling you a
y 22
$
GARY: I'm surprised if it's just a little.

_
92
92
' 1
Ax 18
Steve called comfortable in
to be here for
me up. talking
a while
I know, I
know you
were real
with Jim
and, but,
but I'm going

:o do the very
now and I want
same things
that, that
Jim did with you and see if we

kind of trusting relationshipg
can't develop the same

that ~-
MR. KORESH:
my word,
that I'd deal

GARY: Yeah.
I told I promised Jim, I gave K with nobody but Jim. 1
MR. KORESH:
a 1
GARY: What,
That's what he
made me promise
what, what he was talking aboud

in that regard though was the other phone line that was
going on and he -92 92
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Well
That's not what he

-- i
said.
i
MR. KORESH: He said we're going to do this

together to the end.
1 i
GARY: Yeah,
but, but
I mean,
he --
MR. KORESH: No buts, that's what he said,

you know?
GARY: And
he meant
that.
MR. KORESH: Now, now, what you failed to

night vision. GARY: Yeah, I understand. I
do
is that there's agents climbing ~-like I said, wegot
MR. KORESH: And, and the thing of it
is is
that there's guys coming
from the
from the back

closer and
of the
closer.
property and
barn and
comin
they're getting we're, we're
GARY: No,
away, and, and --
keeping those guys

No, you're
not, you Steve -I are not
92
MR. KORESH: keeping them away.
GARY: Yeah,
mentioned this
before and
we told
just got
-- Steve
they said
they weren't in that MR. KORESH: Well, they
bui
the tactical
lding.
team,
1 l
92
in that
David, you
building,
GARY: No,
we're not stupid

no, no ones
re National--they
are
suggesting that. see anybody
~ r
know, we
don't want to
hurt. After
what's happened today

MR. KORESH: Exactly, now
GARY: -~
else
I , 92
why -both sides
it's been terr ible on
and you know we're not going toassault that building,

that's in, notthat's not in anybody's interest. And
i i i 1
$ r
1
you know nobody's togoing do anything toharm you or the kids. Now, what happened today wasa tragedy and
we just don't want to make it worse.
you agree with that.
I mean, I, I
know
MR. KORESH: So, whyare they still
coming?
GARY: I'm, I'm sending another message to
92 K 4
92
0 K 20 MR. KORESH: No --
GARY: --
they're not there. -- they are here, they're,
MR. KORESH: theyre lying to you. GARY: Okay.
Well, they
-2
MR. KORESH:
you have over the
You know,
how much control dol

z
National Guard?
GARY: Pardon? MR. KORESH: National Guard?

x r l
D0 h
you ave any control over the

out there too?
GARY: The
National Guard's
MR. KORESH: Yeah, the National Guards herek
i n . 92
you know
that.
GARY:
No, I, Ijust
got here about twohourd

Guard is Imean here.
ago from
-MR. KORESH: GARY: I The National
didn't know -I
I kn ew they
were in
the area.
didn't know they were
in the
perimeter.
MR. KORESH: Y hea ,
they re
in our
property.
92
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: So
you need,
you need
to get
with those
guys and tell them

GARY: Oka
to pull
well, and,
back.
and the
y .W
e , 11
word's
1 I 1
i 92
going out going to
right as send a
we speak to message and
do that. I'm writi ng it
Someb odys
down,
K -21
somebody's togoing send a message in there

themthat. David,
you again on seeing
M. KORESH:
to tll
out.
I'd, really I'd like

if
we can'tget some
to work with
more kids
Well, that's what I'm, that's do --
what I'm going to
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
-- I'm going toget every lst

good. -
one of
them out.
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
And Jim, Jim says we'll, weill they want to do and what we Mant
92
negotiate and
to do.
see what
GARY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
that's fine here. i
But the
first
thing I
want to
do
is get
my babies
out.
GARY: Well,
M. KORESH:
I, I
want to
help you
do than.
on
Now, so
when Jim
gets back
the phone
--
GARY: Jim, Jim's not going to

tonight, David, and -MR. KORESH:
be back
Well, he,
he told
me, he
promised me
that --
GARY: Well,
you know,
~
there's a lot of
>
people here
and Jim's, Jim's just one guy and -M. KORESH:
No, but Jim is
the one that I
E
E
made the
agreement with.
I
Now, David --
22
GARY: Well,Jim's agreement is good with me.
MR. KORESH: It is not, that's not what we
agreed on.
GARY: David, now, you've, you've me told and
Steve told me how you want to work this out with us and
you want to negotiatewith us
Jim said?
now. Now, do, doyqu

-
thinkthat I'm, I'm going notto follow suit with what

MR. KORESH: Me and Jim made an agreement.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Wait a second.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yes?
Gary?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah see now, David's saying

him and Jim made an agreement and, and even Jim did~
tell me that, he said that, "Steveyou'd if you;like

can talk with Gary." I said, "I will, I'll *
continue -"
-1
GARY: Um-hum.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- I said, "We'll give you
break." He said he was very tired. He
said, "Steve,,
k
why don't you take a break," he said, "and trust I you,

nothing's to going happen, we're going notto have any
people come on."
GARY: Um-hum.
v I
92
'
1 23
MR. SCHNEIDER: He says, "If you want when

the morning comes you can take a little
your people rest and maybe be refreshed in
rest and let

the
morning." He says, "We can pick up on it right
there - continue bringing the children out," which we

will do.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Wewill continue
HOW .'
1
to do sd.
GARY: Well, Ithink we should do it right MR. SCHNEIDER: Well -- well, get Jim onthe
phone then. I
GARY: Jim, Jim is long sincegone tobed kor

the night. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yousee that's -what,

what doyou think the condition we're in right
GARY: Well, Iknow,
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
now? ,
I know, and, and --
GARY: - are we going to make the whole
thing dependent upon Jim though, Steve? i MR. SCHNEIDER: It may be because if he said
he gave his word and that's the way it was going tobd
and that's where --
GARY: I
know. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- stands with David.

GARY: I, Iunderstand, but, but
Ihope David
24
will be open enough. If, if you're both genuine in wanting to resolve the situation peacefully 4
MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, I.understand the
psychology you're using.
GARY: No, I'musing not psychology.

just using --
I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, no, no, I -- okay,

let's --
GARY: -~ plain old common sense.

MR. SCHNEIDER: - okay, Gary, okay, but still, you know, the bottom line is because
GARY: Um-hum.
I
*
L
of the
5
I
predicament we're in -
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the circumstances, we're

still
but --
-you
know, you get this
indiscernible! of
l i
know, we want totrust you, you'veus shown some things

GARY: That's right. 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: - let's - you know, let
have yougo a little

indiscernible!.
bit further
here and, and

I said, what if Il
GARY: But Steve, what if
said to
make sense
you Steve, I don't want totalk to you, I onlyl

David? Would -- I mean,that wouldn't
1
want to talk to
would it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It -
well, it
92
indiscernible!.
s ' 25
no, because I want to talk to
GARY: No,
anybody in there.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, you
can talk
to me but at
the same time it

negotiation going
was David and Jim that got

--
this
92
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
indiscernible!.
-- so
that's where it
GARY: Well, they got, they got it going and

they made some great progress --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, sure,

92
and I agree
Y v 1 l
GARY: -- and there's absolutely no reason

why we can't go further with MR. SCHNEIDER:
up Jim and, and ask him
it. Well, if you'd like to

-wake
about it
I~
GARY: Well,
92
MR. SCHNEIDER:- because he gave his

already. I mean indiscernible!.
word v
1
GARY:
Jim, Jim gave his word but, you

only person out here,
this? A
E
know, Can't92
1
Jim, Jim's not the

you be reasonable on
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am being reasonable.

going by what the man told me -I'm
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - and he was very clear,
it
'
_ 26
92
f
Jim, if Jim --
was not
-'
GARY: If
MR. SCHNEIDER: -he

what he was saying.
wasn't ambiguous about
GARY: So I'm, I'm to understandthat then
you would, you would do everything Jim would tell you?

:1
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, in fact

GARY: Well, see --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- what he left as hisword, I said, that's and fine ifyou wanted to gethim up
I, 92
and, and
restart this thing
that's also fine -x
GARY: You know, it almost soundslike -MR. SCHNEIDER:-- but kids suffer because of this -then if --
GARY: -we're letting, we're letting the}
MR. SCHNEIDER: They aren't suffering rightl

now. 1
GARY: --
and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: As long as youare where 92 > k

~ V 92
K
>
you're and at you give us your word -GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -and we giveyou our

word -'
92 K x
GARY: Right.
,92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -everything is goingto
27
relationship.
GARY: Right.
P 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:By letting
that little
time
.
go by you'll, you'll see that all the

put more trust in someone like yourself.
more I'm going to
GARY: Sure. Well, we're, we're, we're not
going todo anything to cause anybody any harm. I jst v

think it's unfortunate though that we can't keep 7
92 92 i 92 92
communicating and negotiating. l MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, we're

O_
~- well,
that'm
92
what we're
doing right
now. 1
GARY: Yeah, but I the door on me.
mean, David's just shut

door
K .
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, he didn't shut the

on you.
GARY: N0?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not at
all.
In fact,
that's
-- we're picking
talk to you --
up on what Jim last told
us and that's
why I said but through that time I'm still willing

GARY: Well .
to
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- without

~ 1 92
92 1
even going
to
sleep indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- been talking to

make sure everything's cool --
you to
28
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- that

what we can observe
GARY: Um-hum.
what's going on here,
and see
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and you can keep us informed that

I know --
everything is
still fine.
GARY: Yeah, I understand, I understand, and
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's one the thatsaid takea

little break,
you and
I know it's been a, it's been a lot om

on us and -~ 1
it's beena lot
GARY: Yeah. _
that.
,
1
I MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we, we saidwe appreciate
GARY: Um-hum, no, and,

and ~-
and, and that's,
that's correct but, youknow, Jim, Jim had to leave now

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, but do you understand
it's you - know, it's to hard keep your witsabout youi

when, you know, you're going onfor like say 24hours?
GARY: Yeah, yeah, I know.
MR. SCHNEIDER:So, you know, we're -I
we're getting to a place here where, you know, I don't want to do anything jumpy or foolish or off-the-wall or
I mean, or have, have

that.
anybody here do anything like
' 2
GARY: No, I certainly

GARY: Umhum.
agree with
you there.
MR. SCHNEIDER:See, that's the whole point.

MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what Jim suggested
sounded very reasonable, it
made a lot
of sense to he.
GARY: Yeah. Well, whatJim was suggestihg_

was that Jim had been on the phone with you so long
that Jim
break.
needed to
take a,
take a breath
and take
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Pardon?
You mean
like me?
'
MR. SCHNEIDER:
You mean
like me?
GARY: Exactly,
exactly, so
you know what I?m
saying. And Jim had to take a, a mental break for a E

minute because what you're going through -- 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I
myself.
haven't, haven't I E
that >
K
GARY: I
little break for
know, I
a while.
know, and we took
MR. SCHNEIDER:
92 i
92
For a few
minutes, but
he's
continued on through and I appreciate

you've given us some trust
Um -hum .
that he
versa -~
had and
" --
said, "Look, Jim, if that's what you suggest and, and

and vice
GARY :
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- " -- we've given you the trust," he thought that was great. We made very good
92
92 I
00
- =1
1
30
progress and he said, "Let's uppick on this andif you
would like we'll continue talking to you by phoneievery

now and then." I said, "That is fine."
GARY: Good.
we'll -- I says, -"I'll, I'll it leave that way and

we'll on build that trust relationship."
Idon't want to -MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary -GARY: -Idon't want to -v
MR. SCHNEIDER: I says, "If
you would like
i
2
GARY: Okay. I, Iagreewith you andI, and
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- honestly, thank you,I
mean that.
GARY: But you know, before a little while 1 agowe were talking about you did say you didn't see any reason why we couldn't go ahead and make some
arrangements some for of the kids going likewe were.
now and keep, keep p .

l
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, that's -well, see
*
s
that's I know, but -- that's Ibecause was going to leave it -- or, or where David was the one began -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- this with him
and, you
know, the one he talked to, right,

GARY: Um-hum.
I'm was Jim sure
and, and because so much wasworked out and --
3l
MR. SCHNEIDER: -the

foundation with him. And not ~-
very wordhe gavehim
and everything, you know,he's already built a

GARY= Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and not to take anything away from you, but it began so well that way and
indiscernible!.
relationship.
~
92
GARY: Well,then wecan just build on that

'
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, well, that's I'h what

saying, but his final suggestion made a lot of - iti
was very reasonable, made a lot of sense because
of dhe
condition we're in and what's taken all place. You
know, as late asit gets people are going to get morek

jittery and so forth and if they have - I
GARY: Well, we don't want thatto happen. 1

MR. SCHNEIDER: But see, that's what I'm
talking about. And you know, Imean can I speak for

myself butthere arepeople here, you know, that still
want to do what they want to do.
GARY: Howdo people feel in MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I you
there now? know
indiscernible! littlenervous and jumpy when they see

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- any kind of movement out

92 I
.I
32
there. They- you know, they want totrust A indiscernible! allthe more and a lot of them do, but
at the same time there's a lot of people that are
still, you know, because of whatall took place
earlier.
. GARY: Yeah. Well, how is yourmorale ih

MR. SCHNEIDER: Morale is very good, yeah.
GARY: iYeah?
there and everything?mean, I people holding up okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, it's again,

based on something outside ourselves.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: We're you know, we're K

looking at a higherpower than ourselves.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's we where can get our1
strength.
like he was insome, some pretty significant
.
i
GARY: Yeah, yeah. You know, David sounded E
discomfort. 1 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, especially from talking

from, you know, early this -you know, from the
morning hours right -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- on through afterall that

1-.
took place, he's even not had a, a breakwhatsoever,
l I
not --
C
~ 33
GARY: What, what sort of medical care is he

receiving? I mean, has he got --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have nurses here -GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- andthey've attended do

him and ~-
GARY: Is he bandaged up pretty good? i
MR. SCHNEIDER: From what I understand, yeah.

GARY: Yeah. 2
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's a nice gotshirt on and

everything so
,F 92
he looks
good to
me. N
GARY: Yeah. Is he able
to walk around? ;
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, right now

GARY: Yeah.
GARY: He's smiling?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. A
he's relaxingi
Q
~
MR. SCHNEIDER: He'sat smiling me in fact.E

GARY: Would it be possible for me totalk to
David some more? <
1 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Would you want totalk with L

Gary still or would it be possible to talk somemore?. 1
He's talking been so long. Is there any

get a little break and
GARY: Sure.
way we could E
~
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- could I, could I call you
Iright
back, Gary?
2 GARY:
Sure, no,
that's fine.
3 MR.
5
,5
,6
SCHNEIDER: Even from where I'mI9sittin

my butt's ' st arting
to quite
right here honest with you.
' sore to
be
GARY: Well,
you know,
s
you know what, take

Okay.
a rest
an 92 d I
57
.
and --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
9 10 what
11 I 12
GARY: -I '
and what we'll do is -- you know
m going to do' is, you and David talk and,and

to ~
m going
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.
GARY: -GARY: --
stretch my
Ijust --
legs. But
Iwou
--
I
l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sounds good. think of one thing. M. SCHNEIDER: Okay.
3 92
ld just ask you to:
GARY: And,and I think Idon't want you 1 to center everything on, on just individuals because i
this is more important than just
MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: N0, I, one person
-I -I I E
here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - no,

want to be so fool
Iagree.
know --
Iwouldn't
ish as
to, you
yeah.
--
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
peg anything
into one
92
l3 5
little hole,
but -~
GARY: There's, there's, there's a lot
of --
well, you
know, if
you'll just listen to
me for a
second. There's a lot
of good people out here, Steve.

Okay. I
l
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: And,and I know what's happened today

may cause you to doubt that sometimes, but there 1
really, really is, And there's out people here that92
want to see everybody inside there come out and not be

hurt and so this situation can be resolved and that 1 92
everybody has an opportunityto MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm sure that -~
i
92
GARY: - to say this is
what happenedand 1
this is our perspective on it,

can get it --
this is --
you know, ha?
an opportunity to air the whole situation. And, andwe

we can, we canmove beyond wherewe are,
and everybody wantsthat. And, and I'm here to help X you in any way I can, and I want to see those little E
children come out, and I want to see you come out and It
want to see David come-out and all the
and I don't want to see -E
women in there
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, I GARY: anybody else
appreciate that. get hurt.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, well, that's you -- know, that's we what want to do is talk with you and start
working that out.
92
K .36
GARY: Yeah, and I'm going t 0

night for you so --
be here all
MR. SCHNEIDER: And I appreciate that.
GARY: -- I think I- you know, I, hope that the same sort of trust -~ Ji m trusts
enough to have metalk to
tell you a lot and if he
Iwould
me .
you and I th ink that

--
should
92 r
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, thanks
to have
a little
-- you know, I, I do
allow for us to have
for allowinglme
i
you are going to
appreciate that
here. I mean, likemy legs are cramped

GARY: Yeah.
a little
break92
92
MR. scrmsxnsm
-- my butt's
sore and --
GARY: Well
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- you know, GARY: Yeah, but it's the wa
talking on the phones for so long it's

y --
sitting here
useful time spent because we've gotten to know other better, we've, we've stopped a1
misunderstandings,Ithink we've estab
it's been
each
92
from developing, we've clarified someot of problems
3
1 x K
faith. We've hopefully demonstrated t lished some good 1 K 1 sincerity and our genuine interest in o you our, our 1
And Iwant you andDavid to think aboueverybody inside.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
,a92 92
tthose
things --
GARY: --
after you
rest.
5 37
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. '
GARY: And,and believe me, we'll - we're
flexible, we'll work with you in anyway we can -+

MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary, I really
indiscernible!.
GARY: ~to resolve this but, you know, be assured, you know, we'll, we'll take care of this
movement out there. I'm sure there's a lot edgy and --
edgy people, but nobody is coming in to get you. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, thank you so mubh. GARY: Okay? 1

MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, Gary.
GARY: But we expect you to be responsible in

C
there and to take care of yourselves, care take of the

kids. But I'll here be and _
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. k

GARY: you'll back get with me ina little
bit?
K
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, I will, Gary. I

GARY: Okay, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you much.

GARY: Good enough.
MR. KORESH: Bye-bye.

GARY: Byebye.
Gap! GARY: Hello?
92 1
92
92
92
92 38
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, Gary?

GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Steve back here.

GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm losing my voice.

GARY: Yeah. You all right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah.Anyway, the buys
just reported to me that they

front door even.
not
saw men rightupat the

2
92
GARY: Nobody's at your front door, Steve,'

MR. SCHNEIDER: who would it be?
r 92
GARY: must It one be of your people. You %MR. SCHNEIDER: Hang on, hang on.
GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Serious -- just hang

GARY: Sure.
on.
Unidentified male voice in background.!

Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: These guys are saying they

saw men out front.
GARY: Now, I don't know ifit's because of
what's today, happened they're seeing shadows or
whatever. am I told there is nobody your on property.

- MR. SCHNEIDER: You're told that, but you're quite a distance away at the same time and there --
00
GARY: Well, you're ~-
p
39
MR. SCHNEIDER: -is
- there
was a semi or
some humongous truck that did

clearly seen -I
GARY: Yeah.
pull on Perry's property
MR. SCHNEIDER: - just
across the road.; All
of a sudden now we have men in certain areas aroundthe

perimeter. These they see moving, moving right in the
front GARY: Yeah.
=
@
MR. scnnsrnsa: -- some right up close bythe
door. y
GARY: Well, the're certainly people on the
perimeter but there's nobody onyour property and if 1 they were up to the front doorthat, that would have do
be on your property, right? I mean, do you think someone would be foolish enough to come up to your
front door with what's gone on?
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: Are you serious after what 1
happened even this
morning?
92 92
i
I
GARY:Yeah, I'm -- that's what I'msaying,

nobody is going to come up to the front door.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Idon't know. I
GARY: NO.
mean -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- I meanIwould have never

.-
thoughtthat what
happened this morning would have
92
40
happened.
GARY: I know it,
Iknow it, and
it's a you
tragedy that we don't want to see repeated, but I, I-MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, boy,
what -GARY: Yeah?
I'll tell
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- if, if there is anybody

there, if it does go on again, only this time it
probably will not quit.

time --
GARY: Yeah.After we got off the phonelest

MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
GARY: --I, I, I, Ihad a meeting with theh
the tactical people here andI, I saidIwas very 1 concerned that despite what they were telling meIkeep
getting these reports
they -
that there's people there. And

b
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, no, Jim wastelling mek
the same.Were you there when

GARY: Yeah.
Jim was telling me --
M. SCHNEIDER: -- that there wasfive guys,
couple across, couple across the street by the bushes
and trees, he saidthey saw about fiveor something

near the guard gate.
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's what he asked
-- Kevin
92
Q
asked me if that our guys. I
I
; 41
says, "Wedon't have
anybody out there, no one whatsoever, positively not."

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And we get sita GARY: Well, Ihope
out there --
there's no reporters --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- she looked out there with
her flashlight, went right into

there was not a soul there.
GARY: Um-hum.
that guard gate andi
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: So myself I'm wondering

what's --just a minute.
GARY: Um-hum.
Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. I'm glad with Gary
indiscernible! now he's telling me he thinks it might

have been a dog.
GARY: It might have been a dog,
yeah.
mean, I, I know everybody is jumpy in there,

with what's gone on there's just no -MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what I,
figured, you know, and
GARY: Yeah.
but I mean
what I
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and you guysgave your
word, you seem relaxed, you seem, you know, like you
want to resolve it and end it all,
what we're going to do.
well, okay, that's
S 1 42 I" 92
GARY: Yeah. There's, there's no -- there's

really nothing for us to, to gain by trying to E a surreptitiously -MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
4
door.
GARY: -- put somebodyup on your front
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Do you mind if I jhst

lay down for abouta half hour here?
GARY: Not at all.
E
y
little bit of a headache here.

but -r 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thanks. I got a, I've gotla
GARY: Yeah, that's, fine. that's I hope, F hope you and David had a little chance to chat beforey
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, actually
phone call and -GARY: Yeah.
just got
--
you know, there's you -- know, now and then youget a E
M. SCHNEIDER: -- and I was hoping just to

put my head down just for
or --
a few
minutes and --
GARY: You're getting calls from the press MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, you, you get calls
from just about everything ~GARY: Yeah. .
,_
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or everybody today. I mean, you know, relatives and friends and pressand --
92
92
92
s
v W
1 43
GARY: It's made a lot of news. 1 R

MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, I'm sure of that.
GARY: Yeah.
92 92 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Never wanted it to be like

that. .
i I
92 I
GARY: No, I don't think anybody did. I _ MR. SCHNEIDER: no, Oh no way in the worlh,
notat the cost for any -a human life, you know. iI,
mean, makes us all sick, everyone of us -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -~ seriously, and -GARY: Well,I'm hoping that we can work
together to to,the best of our abilities to, toright

the wrongs that -MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY:have taken place and, and we have E

to look to the future and say that -MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
GARY: ~we just hope that if

learn anything from mistakes and -thing.
you don't
5
1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Then we'll repeat the same 1

GARY: That, that it was a waste, yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. N
GARY: But I, Ithink we can hopefully all
somehow learn from this.
Did --I hope please
Q O
A 44
convey toDavid when you get a chance after you've had

a rest or whatever that, you and again -~ Yeah, okay. concerns and -know, I've met with he tactical people
MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: --
addressed your All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: ~
my biggest
concern is
that the
press or somebody might be looseout there, but Ihope

that's not the case --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. y
GARY: and it's certainly not our peopleh

MR. scrmsxnsm
GARY: Okay?
Okay. ',
Gary.
-:
I my
MR. SCHNEIDER: Thank you,

GARY: All right, Steve
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm just going to just put

head down indiscernible!.
GARY: -need ~-
get, get
the rest
that you
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Thanks.
GARY: -- and, and I'll be here when

back.
you call
MR. SCHNEIDER: I, Ireally

much.
thank you so
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Talk
to you
a little
2 45
later. ~
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.

GARY: Byebye.
Gap!
Dial tone!
noises!
Phone dialing! Electronic:

1 I
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE I'm #3: getting no

ring at all. i
Electronic noises.!
92 92 92
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #3: There's

indiscernible!.
,,_. 92.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #4: What's that??
Electronic noises! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Time #4: is

4:28 a.m. Phone ringing! Unidentified male voices
in background.!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello? Hello, is this Gary?

GARY: Yeah, Steve?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, Steve.Iheard you

were trying
ringing?
to get
a hold of us.
GARY: Yeah. Didn't hear youthephone
MR. SCHNEIDER: Could you hear me talking or,

or anyone else?
GARY:
I didn't hear.
~ I
h 46
92 MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, the crazy things 3
rings, wepick it up and there's nothing on it but we

can call out on the stupid thing.
GARY: Oh, is that right?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I'm not -- I'm trying
to figure out what's going on here and Ican't, I dbnt

know what, what thephone indiscernible!.
GARY: So, you hear, you hear it ringing and
you pick it up but -MR. SCHNEIDER:Exactly, and

GARY: -no, I'm not --
i
the --
M. SCHNEIDER: -- last time Ieven said let
it ring a few times and we did, picked up it and it's} like there is nothing on there. You can hear kind of E like, you know, it's live but you can't hear anything I
l
92
GARY: Yeah.
a
r
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- so I've been -- we've been"
saying if, if you're there try the othernumber and -GARY: Well, I'm, sorry I'm aboutthat,
that --I, Ithought maybe that you were still sleeping

or whatever and I didn't to want disturb you.
M. SCHNEIDER: N0.
GARY: But we had a report a little while ago
of some activity out in thefront ofyour place from, from your folks and, andIwas a little concerned about
1V
O O i
that and I wanted to I
47
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Well,
Well, what
kind of
activity?
out
some movement of
front door.
some people
near
the front
near the
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Nobody, no
one's been going

92
out of the building,
nobody whatsoever indiscernible!
because remember beforewhen we thought the same thing

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that we
thought it
might
have been a
dog then. Could
that be possible? I, Ithink
i the
GARY: No, Idon't think so.
people on the perimeter saw some people movingaroundl

and I~L MR. SCHNEIDER: Well,
V
they wouldn't have seeh
them move outside the
building. No
one's been given
permission to do such a thing -GARY: Okay .
MR. SCHNEIDER: - nobody.
GARY: Well,
Ihave
to accept
your word on
that, and Ireally

without your knowledge.
-- I
hope nobodys doing that

the dogs --
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible!
there's dogs still running

GARY: Um-hum.
around he says.
But nobody from inside this
MR. SCHNEIDER:
92
building, nobody has permission and nobody has done

that. In fact indiscernible! now.
. 48
GARY: Well,
good, because we're, you know,
we're keeping
our end of the bargain and, and, and
trying to make sure we
keep a lid on, on anyactivity

V
we
that might be misinterpreted by eitherside asbeing -MR. SCHNEIDER: Most definitely.

GARY: -just don't want that. i an act of aggression because
MR. SCHNEIDER: Believe -- I told you what1

did, I mean that. '
GARY: Yeah. Did you get a chance to get

p 92
some, get some rest, Steve? MR. SCHNEIDER: I, I
y was just in fact layingl
my head down GARY: Um-hum.
1
v
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- when ~about ago and, you know, the phone was ringing
to get that thing
five minutes} off and on andi

X 92
92
we, we were trying
straight --
i
92 |
GARY 2 Y ah .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and so I finally got to
2
1
putmy headdown for about five minutes, yeah.

GARY: No, that's too not much, but did you
and David
things we
F 92
92
have a chance to talk

discussed?
about some
bit but not
of the
too much
=92
MR. SCHNEIDER:A little
92
0.
w
'
_ 49
because he
seemed -~
GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: - he seemed to be a little

bit, you know, like
GARY: Uh-huh.
tired and
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and fading there, so -~
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Hashis, has his physical

condition deteriorated any?
MR. SCHNEIDER: It doesn't seem like it.
GARY: Um-hum. He sounded pretty robust when

I talked to him before-Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, right.
Q 92
GARY: which I'm, kind I'm ofamazed y at

considering his wounds. I mean, that's -MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY:-that's remarkable. But I'd still'
like to get back to what we were talking about beforeg

see if we can get some more kids out. That was --I
just watched a news show that's and very, playing veryi

positively. l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh.
GARY: It's looked on very favorably. In
fact, I think they're, they'rethere's saying been
eight kids released, in but any event the news coverage

is making that out to be a very positive sign. I thinki it's good. very I was hoping we can work on getting
.I
SONG more Q out.
x
g so
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, yeah.
Maybe could
you
-- well,
you know,
I'll, I'll tell you
the truth. --
Im,
I'm fighting indiscernible! sleep

GARY: Yeah.
right now
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- I'm fighting even,
even --
,. . you know,we havebeen solong without sleep it's like
it's hard to even

going on.
keep your
mind focused
on what's
GARY: Well, I, Ihear, Ihear some tiredness

in your voice and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, my, my throat is

raw. ,
very
GARY: And I, Iknow it's been an emotionall

-- you know, gut-wrenching day and all that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly.

back --
Itold
you I'd like

A
to even indiscernible! here just so Ican lean myhead

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- for
just a little while,

chat with?i
'
but -GARY: Well,

the moment, you know --
.
is David available to
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's, he's me like at 1

GARY: Um-hum.
, 92
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because we've stayed right
L51
V 92
with it
for all
this time
and --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we're just kind of hoping just maybe an hour or twowe can just lay our heads_
back here and -there's any problem with that, but --
GARY: Sure. Well, I don't, don't I think MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. .
GARY: -- I just wonder if maybe we could
bring out a couple more kids while you guys are taking
your nap. Ithink that would bea real positive sigq,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! to

92-
think
about what, you know, what we need to do. Ineed to I

start getting over hereand waking -GARY: Well, I know --
M. SCHNEIDER: -- waking them up and --
GARY: Yeah, Iknow -- well, Iknow you
indicated earlier from what you were saying that you 5

were really interested in having some more kids out and
I -MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
' E
GARY: --you know, we're certainly --
MR. SCHNEIDER: And that's whyIsaid, you

know -;
92
GARY: Yeah.
52
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- we,
we want
all of
them
out, every
last one
of them.
We don't want any kind of
GARY: Well, we want every, we want every --
of course, everyone isalways concerned about children,

but we want everybody out --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, yeah, well, that's the
thing, you know GARY: -Um-hum.
1
don't want to see anybody hurt. 1
-
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, start with themaha

make sure that they
GARY: Sure.
have their
chance and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- then all of
us just to
work this thing out for sure.

GARY: Yeah, yeah. I mean, we can -I dont
know, we,we, we could, we could bring you all out if

you'd like to come out together, that's, that's
something that could
be done too.
MR. scnnsrnsn: Well,

you know, I mean after
GARY: Um-hum.
that's why, you know, i
we needto -- you know,some of these people are so --F
all -- you know, we're --just
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Like Jim, I thought it was,
you know, a good suggestion just to kind of, you know,

if a person can get their wits about them we can sit
92
: ? S3
down and start talking

GARY: Um-hum.
and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, there might be some that want to do this or that or, you know, we
could give them theoffer again and whatever, you know

and -v
GARY: Well,
why don't we --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
maybe a group or --
-- see if we can do
it as
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or break it up in parts if

it makes it easier, you know.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But right now to just talk to
everybody it's just -- it'sof kind hard that's Iwhy

we're hoping by the time the morning
get on the phone
GARY: Um-hum.
comes so we can
1
0
with you guys again and --
here --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- start talking to

I
GARY: Um-hum.
everybody
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yeah,
-- and maybe wecan work that
out and how we can go about doing it.

yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
You might even have SQHIE

OI we
suggestions or we might work withyou onthat
92
54
might have some but, you know, we'll -- go I

GARY: Yeah,I think we're, we're open to,
hear, hear some of your ideas too because I mean
92
ultimately whatever, whatever agree we to it has to be just that, it has to bean agreement between, between
to, youknow, facilitatingit just about any way you want as long as it doesn't endanger anybody, we just,
us all. And, you know, mean I we're, we're open-min just don't see any need for that. There's been enough
blood shed today tolast a lifetime and it's just
tragic --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Most definitely, most

definitely.
GARY: -- just tragic.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
So yeah,I'd, I'd
really like you to think aboutthat and
we can --
GARY: You know, again, we've, got we've A plenty oftime totalk butI think I amconcerned most
pointedly about the children -MR. SCHNEIDER:Right .
GARY: -- and I just think some ofthese
developments we --were -- it's a shame that I guess

the early-morning hours have intervened here but -MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, tell me. ~
GARY: -- it was -- we, we wereon a --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I wishmyself that,you know,
92
H S5
it would
92
have beena few hours before.

GARY: Yeah, but we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: -we were on kindof I think a nice,

a nice progression of, of havingthese kidscome out
and, andit was, you know, certainly -I was trying to hang in there myself.
GARY: Yeah.
n L
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, Jim indiscernible! dnd
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said he was going totryh
to go-- and he said -- in fact, he said he was going

to go with me the whole way and-I 92
'
,
GARY: Well, it's better to have a fresh mind

if you can, but
..
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, well, I figured if he
knew what he was doing, doing the same thing -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then hesuggested it
for me and Isays,"Boy, tell Iyou

-- I'm with you on that -"-GARY: Yeah.
guy -- Isays, "
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- "-- and you've got our
trust and I really do trustyou guys, you've well done

for us." GARY: Yeah, Ihope youtrust me
Steve.
W now too,
*56
MR. SCHNEIDER:
know -I
GARY: Um-hum.
Yeah, I
do, because,
you
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- you're, you're telling me
the truth
that -
and, and so far it looks

GARY: Yeah.
real good, I like;
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, you know, we cankeep

on working.
GARY: Yeah,you know,it was

nice progression, I mean, you know -MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. .
just such a i
GARY: -- you alwaysget asked by the bosse
and soforth, "How are we

you know -" -
doing?" and we say, "Well,

Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
"--
we're talking to reasonable
people that are willing

halfway and resolve our
to, to
meet us more than

-- "--
differences
9 1 l
1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right. ~
GARY: -
"--
and, and they have
demonstrated that by, you know, sending some kids out
which,which shows that theydon't towant seeanyone else hurt," and that's positive and I'dto like keep building on that. And it demonstrates time and again
to, to everybody involvedthat, you know, reasonable
QO
5,57 people can, can do reasonable things.
L MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, Jim, I guess -GARY: No, Gary, I'm Gary.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Freudian
I mean
--
slip, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Okay.

bit and --
I guess I'm
just going to lay my head down here for just a littlel

GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- maybeI can get my wits

here together
r 92.
and --
GARY: Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- I,
talking with you of GARY: Okay course -.
I want to continue
X
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- andstart getting the next

two -you know, the names -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the addresses and phone

numbers, all of that.
GARY: Sure,
we talk next --
yeah, have that stuff ready when
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: -- and, and we'll you -- know,we can

92
' _,
58
do it the
like --
same way we've done it before
of if,
if yqu'd
MR. SCHNEIDER: When, when,when will Jim be

about himself do you think?
GARY: I,
I, Idon't know, but,
but I'll be
herein the interim and, and, and we -MR. SCHNEIDER:' All right.
GARY: -can work this out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, but, you know, he would

like to talk to Jim indiscernible!.
GARY: Iknow,
Iknow
he would,
Steve, but
I'll tell you it would

could, if he could see it
mean a real
to --
lot to
me if he
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I realize but, you known
if he's up, you know, we know -GARY: Yeah.
he would appreciate it, you

H
MR. SCHNEIDER: a friend with him and --
he feels
like he's formedi
GARY: Oh,
many people
Iknow,
but just,
there --
just as
there's
in David'sflock
MR. SCHNEIDER:Iunderstand,
GARY: --
yeah.
I know he wouldn't, he wouldn't
want to
limit his
GARY: --
attention to
Okay.
in his
just one person ---
MR. SCHNEIDER:
flock and
I
59
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, can

then? I'm, I'm ~GARY: Sure.
I get back with you
MR. SCHNEIDER: - boy,

by a thread here.
I'm having in there

some --
GARY: Yeah.
Well, get
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay.

GARY: get some rest and -
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Thanks.
GARY: -- and youand Davidtalk about it and
be ready with the next twowhen, when wecall and

MR. SCHNEIDER:We definitely
GARY: and we'll work it out.
we'll >
will be.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Definitely, Gary.

GARY: Okay.
M. SCHNEIDER: Thank you, Gary.
GARY: I'm counting you. on

GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You won't be disappointed. E

GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Bye-bye. GARY: Bye-bye.

Gap!
MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible! to me just '
I60 now?
GARY: No, it wasn't me. I'm wondering if
it's outside the press or something trying toget in?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, must be. Wow.
GARY: No, Iwas going to let you call me .

back like we agreed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: All right.

handing me the phone here. GARY: Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Thanks.?
I'mto going try to close my eyes again. They keep
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thank you, Gary. GARY: Indiscernible! from you,okay? MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Thanks,Gary.
I 92
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, bye.

GARY: Bye-bye.
Gap!
indiscernible! Administration.
MR. CUMINGS: This is Jim Cummings fromthe

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #5: Uh-huh.
MR. CUMMINGS: Indiscernible!
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Who #5: are you f

looking for?
MR. CUMINGS:
0
Phil Lewis.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE Phil #5: Lewis? I

MR. CUMMINGS: Yeah, theATF agent.
0
Gap!
GARY: Hello.
92
61
MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: Yeah,

MR. SCHNEIDER:
Hello. Steve?
Yeah.
GARY: How you doing,
buddy?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, very GARY: Very, very, you
Idon't know.
don't know?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, youknow, we're getting
reports they're watching the movementthese of guys of

course and it doesn't make anybody happy.
GARY: Yeah, Iknow.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They see them digging in down
by the barn, clearly digging in, digging all night.

It's --
GARY: Well
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- getting

trucks and all that business.
closer to
the
GARY: Well, you -- Imean, if they
are
digging thenyou know that that clearly means that
they're they're not, any making attempts to, to attaok
you or anything like that. Imean, they've obviously

got to maintain perimeter, you know that. know what the 5 MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, you
agreement was that they'd stay off the property.
GARY: Isthat actually on yourproperty? f
'62
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes, it is. .

GARY: Becauseit was my understanding that
they would not be on the property itself.
'
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they are. That's what
they're looking at.

GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're the on property. GARY: All right. That's getting me mad
because I, I meanI've talked to themseveral times

about indiscernible!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's why Davidand I

were both totally awed by it -' GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:- you know, it's an
unsettling thing because we after talking to you and

Jim and everything -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~- was going fine and we
wanted to youknow, here it's coming light and weire

going towant -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- like to start sending the
kids out soit wouldn't be such a problem.

GARY: Sure, sure. Well, that, that
won't?
92
interfere with that, and, and, you know,will, I I will talk tothem immediately after we get offthe -- f
63
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! if

go on with the negotiating.
you could
have them get out of there it would be great and we can

GARY: Well, I think property, but what, what I had heard
before is, again, I didn't realize this was on your ,

I heard - they were just concerned about
to sniper
-you
being exposed out there

we told you guys.
GARY: Yeah.
fire and
know, like
so if
-- I
--
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: But it's still part

We let
of what
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- earlier

you come in and get the
GARY: Yeah.
in the day welet

rest.
wounded and all the
MR. SCHNEIDER: We were for you doing thatq

GARY: Um-hum, um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And in fact, it
amazed ushfow
long it actually took you, youknow, we tried to help
you asbest we could even in that situation.

We'd really appreciate it
negotiating.
GARY: Yeah.
And, and
even with now here you'vethese got guys back here. so we can go on with
-
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, it, it

what we agreed to. GARY: Yeah, yeah.
would sure 5
make aperson comfortableif we'd stayed like what,
64
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's three of them, or
whatever there is out there indiscernible!. j 92 GARY: Where exactly do you seethese guys?
MR. SCHNEIDER: They're, they're being vieked
from the one side of the building directly over to the

-- we call it the shop.
GARY: Can you give mea -like
a compass
heading on that? .
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm not looking at 1
anything right now, but it's at the
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
north side.
GARY: Be the north side of the building -

GARY: -- and there's a little
there?
shed out
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.

GARY: And --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Not really a little shed, from --it's block the --a cement-block building I
believe.
GARY: A cementblock building.
MR. scunmnsm Right. ,

GARY: And, and, andin that area
> you see 1
some guys digging in?

MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, theysee them clearly.
They've reporting been right along.
GARY: Yeah.
0
V
'
:65
MR. SCHNEIDER: And there's just too
many.
They've been watching them.

GARY: Okay. Well, let, let me --
I MR.
know --
SCHNEIDER: They're digging holes so, you

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- whatever it's definitely no good.

GARY: Okay. Well, again,
they're up to .
you know, I'm ndt
trying tomake light of that, but obviously it, you

know, should, should, should tell you that they're ndt
attempting to attack you. MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what it tells me
because I'm just talking

moving up to the front of moving to the front
-- what's happening? Who's

the building? A car?
of a
GARY: Nobody's -- there's a report
of the building?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Cars? What do you mean
they're moving to the front of the building? Oh, he's
watching them on 2491.Okay. But still, you know, the

other thing is clear though that those guys are back.
there -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and that was not part o
the agreement.
GARY: Yeah.
as
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's we what were reporting
all night long, thatthey did see these guys back there and what bothers me is you guys say -then earlier you didn't any have information on thatthat they shouldn'
be there.
GARY: Yeah. Well --
I-
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can Ilet you work that out
and I'll call you back?

GARY: Yeah, I'm to going look into that,
but, but before we, we get back, you know,this in -3

MR. SCHNEIDER: Let's pick up with that
negotiation, you know, start working onthat

indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah, you told me when, when you
called me back you were going to give me the names of the kids that were going to come out next. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what are thenames of
the next two kids that will

this worked out? _
be coming out when we get

'
GARY: Yeah, do you have those?

Tape 4A, Tape 5, blank! side A!'
GARY: Go ahead and hang up, I'll call you;

right back.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: Um-hum.
rev
Gap! V
Dial tone! Phone
Phone ringing!
dialing! Phone ringing!

in there. ,
GARY: It's not ringing

GARY: That
ain't the right number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #6: Yeah, I dont see whyhe wouldn't answer. Do you want to ask him?
GARY: Heindiscernible! changed his numbei,

he's not going to know what it is.
Phone ringing!
GARY: I'm going to try indiscernible!.
Phone ringing! tone! Dial

f 92
trying to
ringing! Phone
l
MR. SCHNEIDER:Hello, Gary?

GARY: Yes.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Iguess you've been Y

get a hold of us?
GARY: Yes, it didn't right after

been ringing? GARY: What is this? 863-5663.
we --
MR. SCHNEIDER: What, what number have you l
MR. SCHNEIDER: Try 5252. GARY: 863-I
MR. SCHNEIDER: 5252. , GARY: --S252. That's number the right whene
you are now?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yes.
'68
GARY: And that's same the instrumentwe've

been talking on?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Apparently so.

problem. _ .
GARY: Okay. I - maybe that's, that's the

MR. SCHNEIDER: I think that has been.
GARY: Yeah, but as far as you know your,
your phone instrument there is functioning properly?

MR. SCHNEIDER:Right.
GARY: You don't any have mute switches on or

anything like that? MR. SCHNEIDER:
/ 92
No.
GARY: Okay.When we talked I, I sat down .
and I talked with the ATF commanders. I'm not with I
ATP, right, and Italked with them. Isaid, listen,

I'm, talking I'm to Steve and I said we're, we're
getting a, a credibility problem here, he's some seeing

people out there. They assure me there is nobody there. They said there is nobody in that house,
nobody digging --
there's digging nobody any -- the building and there's

MR. SCHNEIDER: All these guys though Gary, ; they've told me all the same thing. What am go I -GARY: No, and, and I'm concerned because I, I don't want to lose my good faith with you. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know the truth is,
69
you know,also, they've -- they observed -- here's an
Army tank over here now, armored carrier vehicle of

some sort.
GARY: Yeah,
yeah. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: There's there's this, that.

I mean,what is this going to be World War III or what?
GARY:Well, there's a lot of people out here as you well know and, and, and you've seen the news and
you know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I would -- to tell you
the
truth, I was quite surprised. If anything, Iithought

GARY: Yeah .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- it
more, and, and you know -GARY: Yeah.
would become less, not

1
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the good faith, I mean--
GARY: Don't, don't misinterpret whatithat stuff means. The, the way the federal government
responds to these things -- E
i
' MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I do remember reading
about that Weaver story and a number of otherstpries

I
GARY: Yeah,
yeah --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- in
GARY: That's right.
the past
--
I
70
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- in the past and, youknow,

it definitely unsettles a person. QA
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I knowa lot of the people involved are just peopledoing their job anddon't
understand and --
GARY: But,
but you
have to
know --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- then you wonderfrom

what's going on at the top.
GARY: -in the, in the Weaver case from the moment negotiations started there wasn't a single shot fired andthere wasn't a singleperson hurt after that
point in time. All the, thedamage done in that case

is exactly like whathappened here yesterday; it's
when, when the violence broke out in the beginming but

once we started talking up there it, it worked butin
the bestway that it could which was no furtherloss of

life. _
MR. SCHNEIDER: So, what agency are yqu with,
Gary? ;
GARY: I'm with the MR. SCHNEIDER: FBI. You are?
GARY:Um-hum. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: What? Out of Dallas org --
GARY: No, I'm ofout Washington, D.C. .

MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you, you are?
71
GARY: Yeah,I'm the from FBI Academy.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I see. H
GARY: Yeah. So, I flew out here and I'm,
I'm littlea bit
behind in terms of everything that's
occurred butmaybe, maybe that's advantage an forme
becausecan I get to, to hear from you and David and, and come out witha freshapproach and, and that's what
I want to try to do, Steve. ~

GARY: And,
Gap!
and like
now I
--
GARY: Areyou still
there? Are youstill

'
f u
there, Steve?
Hello? Hello?
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
Unidentified voices male in background.!

Phone ringing!
GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #7:Hello.

GARY: Yeah, Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #7: No.

GARY: Yes, David.
WAYNE: It'sWayne. GARY: Wayne?
WAYNE: Yes,sir.
GARY: Go ahead.
_
telephone.
WAYNE: Welost our
Y 72 GARY: OD.
Yeah, the, the one we've talking been

Yeah.
WAYNE GARY:
on now?
Okay. Which number are you callingme

863--
WAYNE GARY: WAYNE

GARY:
Yeah. ~-5979.
S979. Okay,
and you say thisiis

A
Wayne?
WAYNE GARY:
now? r. 92
Yes, it
is
92 92
Okay, Wayne
Can you hear mefokay
WAYNE GARY:
Yes, I
can
92
this phone
David?
line
Okay. I'm going tocontinue to use

then for me to talk with Steve and
WAYNE
up.
Until weget theother one patphed
GARY: Okay. Do you have any idea what's

wrong with the other one?
WAYNE: No, sir, I
don't.
GARY: Yeah, it gap!it, it almost appeared likea loosewire or something because whenwas, I talking to Steve last time it all of a sudden started to, to, to break up and then itwent out like thene's
>
92
.73
some kind of, some kind of
instrument problem.
And we
have enoughother problems today, we don't need bad telephones. Well, can I talk to
me try thank you.
Steve again, Wayne?

him.
WAYNE: Let GARY: Okay,
and get
WAYNE: I'll keep the GARY: Sure,

WAYNE: Okay.
Pause!
line open.
I won't hang up.
Unidentified voices
him on the phone down here.
in background.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #8:The AEFwants

Unidentified voices
Electronic noises!
in background.!
WAYNE: Indiscernible!
GARY: Hello?
92
call you.
WAYNE: Steve's going to

GARY: Hello?
WAYNE: Hello?
Can you
hear me?
GARY: Yes,
this is
Gary. Who
is this?
WAYNE: This is Wayne. GARY: Oh, hi, Wayne. Did, did

just fixed
1 -- werd you
able to locate Steve?

WAYNE: Steve,
telephone and gap! --
,
Steve has his
GARY: Oh.
1 92
92
74
WAYNE: --
give you
a call.
GARY: Okay.
WAYNE: Yes,
So you want me to hang up on

please.
this line and he'll call meup onthe other one?

GARY: Okay. Thanks a lot. If, if he's not
able to get through to mebecause he's still having 92 difficulty, would, would you have him call meback on,
on the line that you'reright on now? you -i WAYNE: Sure thing. Can
GARY: What's that?
WAYNE: ask Byron to give
me acall?
But let's,
GARY: Yeah,I'll that. do Okay.
let'suntil waitI make sure I'm as soon -- as I hear

Steve on the other line then I'll, I'll get word to -WAYNE: Okay.
GARY: - Byron to give you a call, okay? But I don't want to tie you up with Byron if I need to
talk to
Steve through, through this conduit, okay?

WAYNE: Okay, go ahead.
GARY: All right, good enough. I'm going to
disengage then so I can waitfor Steveto call me,

okay? WAYNE: Yes, sir.
GARY: All
Phone ring!
GARY: Hello?
right, bye-bye.
75
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yes,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Hello, Gary?
Steve?
Yes. -
GARY: I
some problems
understand from
phone?
Wayne that
you found
with your
MR. SCHNEIDER:
and of a sudden bang --
Oh, I was talking
with you
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- it
just
went --
n --
it'S
done that
all through
the night.
GARY: Well, Iwas scared for a minute that

you'd think it was, was me hanging up on you. '
Oh, no, no, Iknew it wasn't MR. SCHNEIDER:
that. I indiscernible!.
GARY: Did
instrument or --
you replace
it with
another
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yes, exactly.
GARY: Okay,that should resolve the problem.

MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm hoping.
GARY: You must have had

something like that. -
a loose wire or
"
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think

anything.
I, I
think that's what it

I
is.
it's we're having a wire problem more than
GARY: Yeah, yeah.

M. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I've got two
V
children
92y
92
76
here. '
GARY: Gap!looking out the windowI see
that we've, we've intogone what's kind ofa gray day,

but it's daylight in any event -MR. SCHNEIDER: Right.
GARY: -- and I'm hoping we can seeif we can
get Chrissie and Brian.

MR. SCHNEIDER: David wouldlike around? He'd like to at least talk to him.
V
is Jim
GARY: Well, as soon as hegets hereIllput him on, but he's not here now and I, I don't what kmow
his ETA is --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well --
GARY: -- but I'd really like

Dave.
to talk to
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's, that's fine,

but, you know, hewould like to talk to
GARY: I, I know that and I, I-1
indiscernible!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you tell me

guys when he might be returning or --
anything
i
about -can you get some information from some the o

GARY: Yeah, when, when -yeah, afterwe've
finished talking I'll see, see if I can find out what

- ~ > 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
1 77
GARY: --
what his ETA back here is.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary would like to

what you want to talk about.
talk with
you. Do you wantto talk with him? He wantsto know

GARY: Well, I'd, I'd like to talk about a
lot of things. I mean, it's just thewhole process of

negotiations tosee if we can talk and resolva our
differences and, you know, I --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He wantsto talk about a lot
of things about resolving differences, whatever else.
David is saying again Jim said just talkwith mim,

that's whathe said. GARY: You know, Steve I-look -<
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Iknow.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Gary, I'm a position in
here, that's whathe was told, you know, I -you to --
GARY: I know, but I'm, also I'm depending on
MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that.

GARY: -- to be reasonable and what Jim}-MR. SCHNEIDER: I realize that. "
GARY: -- was talking
about when we had --
again, I'm very clear on this, when
-- Y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you -- is there any

can you at least call himor --
may
g
92
;7
GARY: Yeah, I will but I just wantto get one, one thing straightbecause think I therewas
literal, literal misinterpretation. when Jim said talk to me, what -Jim never intended for you to3talk only
What hewas talking about was the other line that was going on with Wayne and wedidn't want to have
two separate things going at confusing. You
me to do this, this, this
one point in timeand
to him.
know, if you trusted Jim, Jim trusted

is my job to do
i
this92and to
help you and Imean Ithink

and wait on one person.
t's, it's unfortunate
that
everything that's gone onthat we

rt 92
have to sit
and, and,
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know,seeIhave gome 92 through thisconversation on numerous times. GARY: Yeah. If David -I mean, like3David,
David has trust in, in thepeople around him and! you

know, I think he had trust in Jim and Jimhas
transferred that to me and it's going to be hard or me

MR. SCHNEIDER: He was telling me that Jim
had trust in him and --
GARY: Yeah, well,
Ihave
trust --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- indiscernible! him. L
GARY: -I havetrust in
he talked to Jim.
David,-too, and}
you know, David didn't, David didn't have trust until
79
MR. SCHNEIDER:And Jim told ~-
here's his
exact -
he says, "Nobody else," is what GARY: Well, you know, it,
he said. be hours
be hours
it could
before we even locate Jim and, and do you think gap!.

MR. SCHNEIDER:He said it could
before they locate him.Oh,Iknowyou guys know where
he isfor sure, positively

after indiscernible!.
right off, I mean especially

else here he
GARY: If he waslike everybody

somewhere, there's just --
probably went and grabbed a hotel room in town
MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, I know, butdefinitely

GARY: - there's, there's hundreds and
hundreds --
MR. SCHNEIDER: I know youguys wouldknow

where he's at after indiscernible!.
GARY: Well, I, Idon't know where he'sat.

MR. SCHNEIDER: They would there.
GARY: Well, maybe they would, butagainy you
92
know, we don't towant focusthis all

MR. SCHNEIDER: Just one
on one person.
moment.
GARY: Yeah . 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, theywere just letting us know about what you guys got all out there in the
field and, you know 1
80
GARY: Well,
secret about all that
it's all on the news, there's no

stuff.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I know, I know, they just
-- you know, they're just reporting back asalways. GARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, you
notoriety this
know from the

mean
has received that there's -I
there's ajust cast of thousands out here. Tmeres all

sorts of equipment and personnel, it's a major, major newsevent and it's out job to -there any angels out there?
it's a
MR. SCHNEIDER: In that cast of thousands are

GARY: Well, I haven't seen any in the room
where I'm sitting, but I'd to like think there's some
angels over, over everybody out there in thatcompound. MR. SCHNEIDER: Right, right. k
GARY: And in fact,
I'd like to see come on out. what we were talking when I --
there'slittleiangels two
* i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that's what we, that's

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- called you back here.
GARY: I mean, I'd really -- I think it would
be -- it would help get gap! started this morningl I

mean, I think a
yesterday.
lot of
good progress was made
M. SCHNEIDER: He sayshe wants to save his
81
strength for
Jim.
GARY: Okay.
Well, Steve
-~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just a moment, just a moment.

GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He, he said again Jim said

only with him so --
GARY: No,that's, that's not what, what Jim

meant and I think you know that, Steve.
See --
Jim +
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: -- we, we don't work that way. We

never say -- we never make it all -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: I didn't -- he was the one

that talked to him.
GARY :I know .
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've, I've never seen him like this. If that's he what heardand saidand*thats
what the conversation was
GARY: Yeah.
about --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- it
worked so well.
GARY: Well, I know, and, and haven't, haven't and youI had sucha good discussion and 5 haven't worked we well together? _
M. SCHNEIDER: There's, there's something

he's to got say that I don't have the ability to do.
The, the reason I'm here isbecause of whatthe manys been able to show with theBible, the statements he?s
82
been able
to produce.
GARY: Are you talking about Jim now?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I'm talking about David

here.
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, you
So --
know --
GARY: - David -- before yesterdayDavid

never knew Jim and never talked to Jim
MR. SCHNEIDER:Surely.
and --
GARY: -- yet after he talked to him
he found
that he wasa reasonable and worthy person. MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, because of -- condition
and everything I'd to honor like -- y

GARY: Well, right. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- what he's choosinghere.

GARY: Well, I'd, I'd, I'd like you to have
him -- give him-- have, have an opportunity totalk to

me as well. I think --
MR. scrmmnzn: Well, let mecall you

on the phone or something -GARY: Okay.
iback
and try to locate him at least. Maybewe can buhz him
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- or at least you can tell

me something about it. I think -~ I GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll call you
right back
and,
92
83
and --
'
GARY: Yeah, please do because -- at the time
being I'm not surethat I have, have the ability to even call in to you soI'm, --I'm until we can rectify
that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, call -- rememer the

5252.
GARY: Yeah, I got that down. I hope -- he

said -863-S979, was that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: That, that's Wayne. " GARY:

Which --
Well, that's the number he gameme.

I'm --
r, 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: This is --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
- 5252.
GARY: Okay.
number did
You're gap!.
M. SCHNEIDER: Wayne gave you the-- which

Wayne give you?
GARY: I,I wasreading the wrong number,

you're right.
GARY: 863-5252.
MR. scrmsznsm
92 1
Right.
GARY: Okay, I understand. ~ 1 MR. scxmmnsm Okay. Call me back, and if I

don't hear from you indiscernible!.
92
84
L.
GARY: Okay, but I'd just like to leave -MR. SCHNEIDER:Indiscernible! minutes?
GARY: Yeah.
GARY: I'd, I'd just like to leave with one
last thought.I really, really am dependingyou on to,

to help me to help David and -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Dothis for me and

then let's get back on the phone.
GARY: Okay.
mi. SCHNEIDER: Thank you.

GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Good-bye.
GARY: Byebye.
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Just like you said baok to
the wire so he got tired of it, pulled it all omt and

started over and -GARY: Umhum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -he said it looks pretty

solid now.
GARY: Okay.Well, I can hearyou prety

good. h
_ MR. SCHNEIDER: Good,good.
GARY: Yeah,can you hear meokay? 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I can hearyou okay. C
' as
GARY: You know, I was just - took me a
while toget to the phone, Iwas just getting up to, to

go to the bathroom.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, you were? Okay; GARY: Yeah, but that's all right.
you now.
1I'm with
M. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Were you able to

contact Jim or find our where he was?
GARY: What, what - I, I went and talked to
the, thebosses at the ATF here and I said, listen, these, these folks would like to talk to Jim and they
said Jim is backat a motel somewhere getting some rest
and they said they, they just weren't going to wake him up now, that he'd worked allnight long and they expect
him to be here later in the day and want him to be

fresh and be able to, to help you out and,and they're
not going to wakehim up. AndIhope that, that we can work togetherand I'm here to talk to you. Huh?'
>
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I was justtalking with

someone Gary.
GARY: Yeah. Ithink
that's reasonable if
you, if
you look at it.

MR. SCHNEIDER:
Pause! '
1
David?
'
5 2s
I
Unidentified malevoice in background.!=
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's, told he's me that Jim
made him give him
his word.
'
GARY: Well, we've been, we've through been

that, Steve, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: He saidthat Jim made him

give him his word.
GARY: Well, I, I hear what you're saying.
but I mean, you know, that's, that's what the
bosses
have decided. Now, we can, we can keep talking like

this all day long and it's not going to change the
situation. You know, Jim will behere later today

we can get him back in touch with you andthat, that
and
shouldn't a problem. be But I don'twe think should waste this precious time and, and not proceed with, you
know, the mutually beneficial things that I hope we can

accomplish, and I think that makes sense to you! Steve.
We've, talked we've enough now through the night I
think you know what I'mis, saying is true and

we can get --
honest
1
and I, I just don't this want opportunity to passwhere MR. SCHNEIDER: Tell Jimto give us a call as soon as he gets there then. E GARY: Well, that could, that couldbe pretty
much later in theday.

just said.
GARY: Well, I, I think that's an
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he-- that's what he
87
unreasonable position,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
don't you?
N0, I don't.
GARY: Well,
could I
talk to
David about
it?
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said Jim mademe give my
word. He says, I can't back go on it,

it.
Ican't break
92
GARY: No, Jim, Jim, Jim didn't say give

trying to say -MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I, I --
your
word thatyou won't talk to anybody else. What Jim was
GARY: -there when
and he did say very --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Were you there? Were you

he was talking? GARY: Yes, I was, I was, and what Jim said
is he didn't he -- had wanted to

can only talk to
place and
talk on one line, not
both lines, he didn't say you have mysolemn word you

me and nobody else, that didn't take
that. you know
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, I did hear him. vkpu know
that he told menumerous times, Gary, he actually did,

that he said that
the night.
he would stay with us right
through
t
GARY: Well, he, he -- and he did, he
stayed
i
until 2
o'clock the inmorning,but, you know --;

M. SCHNEIDER: Well, so did we,
GARY: Oh, I, I know you did, but,
you know.
butj
Q
92 88
again, you know, you're, you're inside there;and, and

you were able hopefully to get some rest. MR. SCHNEIDER: lndiscernible!
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Jim made a promise?not to do
anything without him. He said he's going to keep that.

GARY: What, what would happen if Jim was in
I
a car wreck and he was killed, that means we couldn't

solve this problem, wecouldn't talk?
and indiscernible!.
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, buthe's you not, know,

GARY: Well, I know that, but, but I mean
stop tothink about the logicof thewhole thing,

C
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I am. A GARY: You know, do you think Jim, Jm -MR. SCHNEIDER: I am indiscernible!.
GARY: -would --
Jim would develop the I'll turn this

E
relationship he did with you and just walk awayand

say, well,
over to
you know,
any schmuck
I can't be here but

here and
hopefully he does
dkay?
matter is
MR. SCHNEIDER: NO, the, the truth ofithe r though he wants to follow through
GARY: Well ---
indiscernible! --
, 92
MR. SCHNEIDER:
he began with
the person
Q O
89
that stated
indiscernible! he
GARY: Well --
stated --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- he gave him hisiword and he wants to follow through on that. '
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum. Well,you khow,if I
call Jim up at the hotel and Jim says -- he givesme
permission to talk to David, that'll suffice then I, I

presume?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, tell him

we're saying, that
GARY: But
exactly what
---
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Davidwants tocommunicate
with him because gave he him his word on that and -,92 92
GARY: Steve, that's going not tohappen, and
I mean I hope later on

opportunity --
we can bring Jim down here but,
you know, I, I think, I think we're letting anMR. SCHNEIDER: Why don't you call him and
talk to him?
GARY: Well, I don't have his
number or I --
I can find it later on, but that's not the issue. The
boss of the ATP has, has made a -- made his decision
here and he says he's going not to be pulling Jim down.

Jim's the not only one you're going to -- ' MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, you're talking about
all these lies and so forth on both sides --
90
GARY: Yeah
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and you're talking like

that. "
GARY: And that's we, why that's why we

should get down to business.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I think you're unreasonable,

Gary.
GARY: What's unreasonable with

position, Steve?
that
MR. SCHNEIDER: Because ofwhat the man
stated, and David gave his word. He, he himself said

don't with deal anyone but myself, he says I'll work
with you right on through -GARY: It's, it's because --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and then he said -F at the
very end he says, well, you know, I'm getting tiredand

so are you, why don'tbreak you until tomorrow, we'll
pick this up when -- in the morning

GARY: Um-hum.
sometime.
MR. SCHNEIDER: So of course the morning's

come and --
GARY: Well,you know, this is very

frustrating, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He, hewent tobed at what,

2:00? Well, here it is --
GARY: No, he, he
left here at 2 o'clock and
Q O
91
-~ 2:30.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you
know, I, you know,
I continued to talk with

anything.
GARY: Um-hum.
you, I didn't togo bed or
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I
too. .
sat here.
GARY: Neither did 1, I stayed up all night MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, were you upthrough the
day?
GARY: Yes, I was. I haven't slept for about
32 hours.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well then
ball park -
V
you're the same in
GARY: Yeah, I'm, very I'm tired, bud, you 1 know, I think we've let something artificial here
really destroy a great opportunity for us to, to make
some progress and I'm very disappointed in that, And
I'm to here talk to you, I'm to here help you, I'm here
to, to
92
-- I
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that -g GARY: - enable us to resolve this situation. MR. SCHNEIDER: You heardwhat I justisaid
though -I
GARY: I heard.
p 92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- the whole thing.

1
92
GARY: I know, and, and I can'tanything do

92
about that.
The, the boss of the ATFhas said he's nOt

-'
going to wake up Jim and,and he's going to let him

have his rest and that's his final decision
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay, well
GARY: -but --
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: - Iguess we'll talk to you

later then.
GARY: Okay.Well, I'll be here for you, you
know. Imean, we need to talk andI think you

that and I think David does. Okay. M. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Steve?
know
1C
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yes?
GARY: There's -- don't you agree with what

I'm saying?
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, because I've togot agree

with him because I, Iheard from a distance the
conversation. indiscernible!. Iheard him talking with I
GARY: Oh, I, Iheard it here,
but youlre,
you're misinterpreting the whole thing. y

MR. SCHNEIDER: I've to got go by what he
heard and what he understood clearly from the man.

GARY: Well,
I
I--
MR. SCHNEIDER: I've to got goby theman --
92
93
GARY: - I know, and I'm going -- I'm -MR. SCHNEIDER: -- gave him his word and he
says theyhad a, they hada deal and theyboth had--
they had an agreement and he wants to abide by that and

follow it right
beginning.
on through just it was from the
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sorry -MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible!
GARY: - indiscernible! I
mean we were
ready to, we were ready toget Chrissieand Brian out
and Ithink it's -- they're the ones that aregoing to

be thevictims of this now.
ready. It's a fresh,
' . 92
It's unfortunate.} We're
new day.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would be the, the,victims

of what, Gary? "
GARY: Well, because you want to get them out. You've asked us to help you get them out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, what,what are

talking about? They'd the be victims of what?
you
GARY: Well, they're one the who are npt

going to get the opportunity to come outis what I
meant. 1
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, they will have the

opportunity to GARY: come out. Yeah. Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Positively.
1 94
GARY: -- as soon as you

really, Steve --
want to
do that I'll
2". v___
be here to, to help you work it through, you know,

MR. SCHNEIDER: He says we're to going
sending them
a Buzz.
all out
as soon as you get
Jim do give us
GARY: Well, I don't know when thatfs going

to be. We're to ready do this in the way-MR. SCHNEIDER: He's ready to do it just like
we agreed
to --
and that's --
if, if
I want
you'd like you want me

to make sure I
GARY: Okay.
understand, okay
--
MR. SCHNEIDER
You know, there's press
calling
us all
the time
GARY: Yeah. MR. SCHNEIDER
-- and they ask us about how

them honesty --
we're -and we've told

GARY: Um-hum
MR. SCHNEIDER
-- right
along you guys have
bent over, you've extremely done well with us -GARY: Yeah. MR. SCHNEIDER
-- you've worked with us,
we've worked with you.

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
And, you know, he understood
95
it that
way; I
GARY:
can't, I
Um-hum.
can't --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- take
that from
him, you
know, Gary,
. GARY:
between you and I,

Iknow,
I -_
Ican't.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
He's the one that
worked the
deal,
Ididn't.
GARY: But
you know,
the way,
the way it
works with us, the system doesn't depend on one person,

it just doesn't work that way, and I, and I thhnk you
like
understand that
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, in
to so
a situation
and --
this which
is so
crucial
many lives
-- and
so much
is
at stake
--
GARY: Do, do you think I'm

something -MR. SCHNEIDER:
going to
do
-- indiscernible!.
GARY: -the children?
that
would jeopardize
your life
or
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Did Isay that, Gary? ;Dont

Iknow Ididn't -Y
put words
into my
GARY: NO,
mouth,
no,
I'm not.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- say
that. y am I
GARY:
Iknow,
but that's -- what, whaq
to conclude
if you
--
96
I MR.
have to, that --
SCHNEIDER:
You can conclude what
you
GARY: --
feel
like that
I--
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- Itold
and --
you exacthy -- you,
you understand
what Isaid
-- you know, I, Ican't sway

Well, what, what --
from that.
GARY:
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
The agreement was made -I'm hearing you say --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- the
agreement was made break his
between two men. Why -- he doesn't want to

word gap!.
GARY: Well, Jim, Jim --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Got a trust thing now it's

but all, all the agreements
been definitely
GARY:
going on
Iknow,
that Jim
made Jim
didn't make. They
have to be made
and approved by theauthorities,that's the way it

works here.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
And hesaid that he
had that,
he let
us know that he had that.
GARY: Yeah,that's right. He hasthat and I
have it. Ihave the authority to make those decisions

tOO.
M. SCHNEIDER:
In fact,
we -- you know,
97
right - we'd working been with him forquite a long

time and he had been atthat time working with all the different agencies and we heard him talking with them and working with them and everything has been, you
know, going very well.
GARY: Yeah. Well, I,
I think you understood
the pointI'm making, that, youknow, when Jim;talked

to Davidand, and Jim would then goto the ATF*leaders
and, and, you know, I'm, here helping I'm themgat their
request. Andthey made a decision. They would say yes, Dave - they would say yes, Jim,you, youtan do
that. So it was their authorityupon which Jim made
those decisions. Now they've given me that authority

now and, and I'm, I'm, I'm I'm, confident that wecan
work this out together. y
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, I'm confidentthat

indiscernible! --
GARY: Yeah, we -you and I've some had nice

conversations.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -go along asthe agreement
was made there will be no problems and everythinggwill

work out just fine, I really believethat. I,
believe you do --
I
'
GARY: Well --
92
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and I, and I hope so on our side. A
98
<
GARY: Yeah, yeah, then I don't kndw why we

can't proceed.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, wecan proceed as soon
as he - justgive him a little more rest and we'll get right at it. It'll give me a chance myself, you know,
I've had only -why don't you lay down yoursalf for an
hour or two indiscernible!
GARY: Well, let me
~
ask -~
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- giveme an opportunity to

be a little more fresh -GARY: Yeah.
M. SCHNEIDER: -- andto talk and so forth.
GARY: Let, let me ask you something, Steve,

t
if I may --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Sure.
GARY: -since, since we've, gqt we've a

little time here to talk.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, you know, I've got a
terrible splitting headache be to honest with you.

GARY: Well, I know, but - you said you
wanted to Jim come here. Now, you said you were;going
to letall the kids go if Jim came?that, is Is that

what you indicated?
MR. SCHNEIDER: We said right from the very

beginning -GARY: Yeah.
, 92 92
99
MR. SCHNEIDER: ~~ that's what was worked
out, that
by twoby-two
they're going to come right on
out indiscernible!. GARY: How,

there?
how many
kids do
we have
in
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we believe we came up with a number.
I donft
GARY: Yeah.
kids are in there?
You, you don't know how many
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Yeah.
I don't right off.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Like he

few.
said, there's.quite a
GARY: Like
have no idea.
what kind
of ball
park figure?
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, Idon't even know right

off, Ireally don't.
GARY: I mean, is it a hundred? -
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, there's not that many.

GARY: Yeah.
I mean --
I mean, Ihave
no idea,
yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:But he will --
you know,
he'll give you that figure, he'll -- we'll go ge a head counthere sometime in between and, and makesure
we have all that. I need to still get the names bf around in some of these people. They've all notbeen
100
the same place and instead -- you know, I mean when I

got off
to try
the phone I was actually attempting

to recover
GARY: Yeah.
to lay down
a little
energy --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- here,

phone -GARY: Well, how --
but I
mean the
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, the thing kept
on ringing and then no one's on it, but they probably were on it but I don't who -- knows what wasgoing on
indiscernible!. .
GARY: Yeah, apparently your, your phohe

there was having some problems. R
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, I mean, the, thething

never stopped ringing, you know, and didn't want to
actually take it
seemed like
off the
hook because, you know,iit,

twice --
it
it worked
GARY: Yeah.
once or
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you know, it was strange.
GARY: Well,we got it going now apparently,
yeah. Well, youknow, maybe if, if, if you got a headache and youwant to lay down for a while mayhe I couldtalk to David. Maybe if I talked to David or a
while he -- '
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's laying down right nbw,

you know, after all this time he has -5
92
101
l -. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 l3 14 15 16
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I'd like to tell you truth, man,
little bit
j
the lay my head back here a
I'd just like to

and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Can you - I
mean, if
he --
how long do you think he's going to sleep?

GARY: I, Idon'tknow. Imean ~-
MR. SCHNEIDER: If he,
if he
went to
bed
about 2 o'clockthereabouts, or you know, it can't be
too far away from, you

hours later,
know,that time,
last
you know, eight

time I saw
or even six, seven hours, huh?
GARY: You know, he -- the
him was2:00, 2:30 whenever it was heleft here and I don't know if he went to briefings after he left here or what time he went to bed, I, I don't know. But this
trying to tell you.
iv wholeissue doesn'trevolve around Jim, that'swhat I'm

18 19 20 21 22
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'll, I'll tell you what, you know, I'm so -- the truth is I'm just, you know, can
you tell I'm tired and just so worn? I
indiscernible!.
Q3
24
GARY: Well, I'm, I'mtired too and I'll, and
I'll tell you what more than that, Steve, I'm just really disappointed that we've, we've tocome a, a road
block on this issue.
I02 .1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! look
it,
everything - give it a little

rush it
time, you know, don't

I'll be here and it's,
and push it indiscernible!.
GARY:Well, I'll,
it's - it'll be that --
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know, we'veto shown youi
already, we've not done anything, you, you

let's have a little trust.
well, we do.
can keep"
your eye on us, we'll the doing thesame, you know,

GARY: Well,
MR. SCHNEIDER: We're to going get this --
we're to going actuallyget this thing worked out. I mean, we, we mean that. We're going towork it right
on through.
side.
GARY: And I think you'veseen that on our

MR. SCHNEIDER: I do, so you know --
GARY: Everything we've you told is true, we
4 9220
21 22
haven't, we haven't done anything to, to, to -- i
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So let's, keep let's
the relation going, you know, but if you,if youcould
just give me -a boy, I'd to just, love you know, lay

back maybe for an hour or two. If, if you guys -- if
you laid
something.
24
down yourself for just twohours or

.
i25 1 o
GARY: Um-hum, okay.
103
1 2 tell you,
3 mouth is
4 GARY:
MR. SCHNEIDER:You sound tired, if you can't tell I

throat is
Um-hum.
I mean, I'll
am, you
know, my; my
hoarse --
dry, I'm -- my
5. M.
7 GARY:
SCHNEIDER: -- Igot.a
Um-hum.
terrible headache. --
6 It's,it's just so hard to communicate, it is
81 M. SCHNEIDER: -- it's very hard. You know, 9 I mean I'm, I'mreally having a real hard time, I am, I
10 can't emphasize that enough.
11 GARY: 12 MR.
Yeah, yeah. SCHNEIDER:Iam,
You do sound
tired.
I'm worn out.
13 GARY:
14 a lot of
And you sound like you've been through

stress and Iknow it's difficult situation a
15 .in there
for everybody.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
16 Well, can
18 you
you giveme - maybe in the
mean time why

have
17 don't you -- Gary, I'd, I'd really even like to

get some rest yourself.
19 GARY:
20 you guys --
Um-hum. Well, I'll, I'll be here when

MR. SCHNEIDER: Indiscernible! don't you
~ have a cot or a bed or

23 lay
something you could just

--
kind of
down there nearby or
24 GARY: Well, no, Iappreciate your concern 25 and, you know,I'll, I'll, I'll be okay andI'll I-just -I Q
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 B 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
10%
MR. SCHNEIDER: with you and talking
I really now.
don't mind working
with you
GARY: Well,
I'm glad
to hear
you say
that,
Steve and I've, I've kind of

MR. SCHNEIDER:
felt since
--
last night
--
It's not
GARY: -that
MR. SCHNEIDER:
you and I got

Well, we
along very
Imean,
well.
have,
there's no, there's no problem there. GARY: Sure, and Ijust -- I'm, I'm kind of
depending on you to explain that

MR. SCHNEIDER: I will,
to David and I,
but, you
I --
know, even
right now he's -not even like me he's not with it,
you know, it's, it's just difficult GARY: Yeah. Okay, well, and -listen let's do
this: I'll let you
get a
little, little
rest. -- I,
if -in
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Ireally

GARY: And I, I'll be here, Okay. event that I do
I---
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: the
lay down
for a
minute when you ring
if somebody else answers -Okay. .
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: -- they'll come and get MR. SCHNEIDER: I think

24 25
me. work now if
it should it will.
you ring
863-5252,
Ireally
believe
GARY: You want to

real quick?
make one more test
on it
OO
105
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yeah, would
you
do that?
Just give
me a call
right back.
'
GARY: Okay.
-.-
If, if
you don't hear my
ring
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Yes, just
call you
back.
GARY: -in
back, okay?
MR. SCHNEIDER:
a few
minutes, you
call me
right
Iwill
do that.
GARY: Okay? MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: All right. :Okay. I'll do that.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Okay.
Call me
right
away.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Here
Okay, bye.
we go.
Dial tone!
Phone dialing!
Phone ringing!
Phone company call error
signal.!
TELEPHONE OPERATOR: I'm sorry-Dial tone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #9: They've done

this again indiscernible!.
GARY: They
you should --
have corrected
the problem
and
Dial tone!
Phone dialing!
Dial tone!
Unidentified male Phone dialing!
voice in
background.!
Phone ringing!
.1016
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello?
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, great.
GARY: Okay.
working.
Now, that
connection is
MR. SCHNEIDER: That makes me feel

better.
a lot
GARY: Well, metoo because

problem all through the
GARY: Yeah.
gap!.
MR. SCHNEIDER;Because that's been a real night.
MR. SCHNEIDER:It really

GARY: Me -- bothered
bothered me.
me too.

GARY: Gap! Steve, listen --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Gap! good, just give

little -oh, man --
me a
GARY: Okay. Give me,give me, give me a

ring when you rest up a little bit.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Youmake sure

place I'm at here.
you get some
sleep soyou -- you know, you're, you're about thesame

GARY: Okay. That soundslike a fair deal.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gap!
Gary.
thanks Ji--
thanks
GARY: Okay,
Steve.
!
IQ7
MR. SCHNEIDER: I said Jim, didn't I?
GARY: No, no, you started

to say Jim
but --
GARY: --
you said
Gary, that's fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Okay. Talk to you

a bit.
in!
GARY: Okay. MR. SCHNEIDER: GARY: Bye-bye.

Dial tone!
Bye.
GARY: Is it
recording now? Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER #10:
GARY: Time is -- we just completed the phone

call at 8:12 a.m. on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #11: Good morning.

GARY: Good morning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #11: IS Pat McGhee

there?
GARY: I'm sorry, sir,
he's not at this
number. Areyou trying to get

other number here?
the -- where is our

tone! Dial Phone
Electronic noises!
dialing! Phone ringing! -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?
GARY: Yes,mayIspeak to David
or Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, who's
108
this?
GARY: This
is Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Gary,

moment.
wait one
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: David?

Go get Steve. It's Gary.
Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay.

getting him right now. GARY: Okay.
We're
Pause! Electronic
GARY: What's that?
noises!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12:

GARY: Oh, is that a hold?
It'S a hold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #12: They put you

on hold.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Did you enjoy

that music? It was,
GARY: Where
it was
did
a mistake.
that come from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: The telephone

itself.
GARY: Oh.
Who am I
talking with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER:' Huh?

MR. GARY: Who is this? .-
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Who
is this?
GARY: Yeah.
I'm, I'm Gary.
109
f 92
find out
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE s oon
SPEAKER:
well, you'll
enough
gap! Well, that's fine. I, I, I trying to
GARY: Okay.
wasn't t TY
ing to
be intrusive,
Iwas
jus t was
be friendly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah, well -Dave?
GARY: Somebody
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
going to
get Steve or
They are,
SPEAKER:
yeah,
right now.
GARY: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE get Steve. SPEAKER:
They've gone to
GARY: Great.
._ K.
Thank you very

SPEAKER:
much. Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
Pause!
MR. SCHNEIDER: H8110, Gary?

GARY: Yeah, Steve?
M. SCHNEIDER: laying down there.
Yeah, in
fact
Iwas
just
GARY: Oh, from Wayne ,he
Wayne, Wayne
-- we
got a
message
wanted me to call you.

Oh, really?
MR. SCHNEIDER
GARY: Yeah,
MR. SCHNEIDER GARY: Yeah.
Iwas
told to
give you
a call.
No kidding?
MR. SCHNEIDER
,.. 92
Well,
Idon't
know.
Did you
II
11b
get ahold of Jim?
GARY: No,
no, we're still
in the
same
situation. They
blame them.
want him
to rest for a while,
Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Oh, it
sounds good, I don't
GARY: Well, you know,I'm going to be gap!.

MR. SCHNEIDER:I have gap!.
GARY: I'm not going to tell you something
that, that's not goingto happen, but did you, did you
-- you sound like you might have
MR. SCHNEIDER:
just gotten up.

I just laid down
Well, I,
like 10
minutes ago
GARY: Yeah?
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:
- and
then I
heard my name
being called that I

GARY: Oh.
was to get to
So I
the telephone.
was just going to, I was
MR. SCHNEIDER:
just
going to
pass out.
well, I was, I was going to -I
GARY: Yeah,
didn't want to disturb

hear from you but then -MR. SCHNEIDER:
you. I
Yeah.
was going to
wait to
GARY: said
3 ?
then I
got
the word
that, that
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Indi scernible! we
called --
GARY: -- call, call
David or Steve.
Q
I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 worse? v
I
111
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Ch, boy.
GARY: Maybethat's a misunderstanding from 1

our other
I
phone.
MR. SCHNEIDER: YES --
GARY:
Idon't know.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that

going to lay down if you
GARY: Sure,
could be.
Ithink
I'm
don't mind.
that's fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Lay back down here a little

bit here.
GARY: Yeah, have you had -- you and David
had a chance to talk

about?
anymore aboutwhat we talked

he's been
MR. SCHNEIDER:No, because -no,

laying down here.
GARY: How, how -- is his
condition any
MR. SCHNEIDER: No, it's the same.

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know,he, he never got

any sleep so --
GARY: Yeah, yeah. Does he have -- Ithink

23 24 25
might have asked you that but Ican't recall what you
told me. Does he have medications that he needs or-MR. SCHNEIDER: He's okay, yeah -GARY: Yeah, yeah.
l 92
I
112
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- everything's fine. Yeah,
he's, he's all right.

are still ready to
Thanks for asking. i

and Brian are, are,'
come on out?
GARY: And Chrissie and,
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, they will be

GARY: Yeah.
ready. you know, as
MR. SCHNEIDER: He wants -- but,

soon as you can --
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- call which will
him or
talk to
him
give me a few moments to --
GARY: Yeah. Well, we're, we're you ~know --
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- reviving
here.
GARY: Yeah. We're, we're ready to, to receive them at, you know, anytime you want -MR. SCHNEIDER:Right, okay, GARY: -like I told you good. the before.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Yeah, once we start
process we'll just keep on sending them out.

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: You know,there's, there's no

problem there at all.
GARY: Yeah,
yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He just wants that assurance
and I, I knowwe can just keepright on going.
.' 11,3
Q ;
GARY: Yeah, you know, and that, that
looks --
obviously you
know the extensive media.
coverage and,and when they're seeing the kids come out

like it, it makes everybody feel that the
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
situation ---
Right.
safer and
has gotten
GARY: -come to
that reasonable
--
people can,can --
reasonable solutions
MR. SCHNEIDER:Right. Gary
GARY: -- and that makes me feel good.
MR. SCHNEIDER: - I'm going to go - if you

don't mind I'm going to go lay down for -f -. 1
GARY: No,
that's fine. Okay.

This time I'm
MR. SCHNEIDER:
definitely -- yeah, what? Okay. Yeah, I'm to going

lay down and --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: talking to

GARY: Okay.
-- I
definitely will
,
be
you just shortly.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay? ,

GARY: That sounds good.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Uh-huh.
Thanks, Gary.
g
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, bye.

1 l 1
"114
GARY: Bye-bye.
Pause! Electronic
MR. WILKERSON:
noises! Phne
is this?
fin9$9
Yes, who
ROBERT: This is Robert.

Gary?
Are you calling for

the C.P.
MR. WILKERSON: No, I'm calling for

ROBERT: Who is this, MR. WILKERSON: This is
phonetic sp.!.
please? Bob Wilkerson
ROBERT: And who are you calling

supervisory rank.
GARY: Hello?
for, sir?
a
MR. WILKERSON: Anybody out there with

GARY: Yeah, Steve.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Did you get any rest?

GARY: I'm afraid not.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm afraid I didn't either.

GARY: You didn't? NO. MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Oh
gosh, well
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. So
--
GARY: --we're going just tohave totroop

it out
then?
between the two of us here and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: So what's happened withJim
115
GARY: Well, there's no -- been no change in
that. I'm hoping we're going to

soon but from gap! again, Itold you Imet
be able
to locate
him
from,
some resistance
can you
hold me
a second?
Sure.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Sorry,
I had
something in my resistance
throat.; in terms
You know, I'm stillgetting some
of, of
them wanting to, to

that.
bring him right away,
but
he'll here be later.

question about
I don't think there's any
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. _

GARY: I'm, I'm hoping we can do that.
I'd like to get --
But
do
' MR. you think
SCHNEIDER: Well,
what kind
of time
we're looking at here?
GARY: I,
I, Iwouldn't want to pin down on *
a, on a time and then disappoint you later on,

I'm hoping we can get him here pretty
but I'm,
soon and --
GARY: -
and we'll move forward.
But
in the
>
mean time I'd like to, you know, proceed where we were 1
when we left off and -Which was? MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: Well,
we were talking again think is,
about the is in
two little
ones and seeing what we coulddo to try to

them out which I
arrange getting
I16
keeping withwhat youfolks wantedand we'd like to,"
we'd tolike accommodate that.

GARY: Sure.
' h
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hang onjust a minute, Gary.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Just got
Just a minute.
another call
here.
GARY: Yeah,
Pause!
okay.
Unidentified male voice in background.!

GARY: He still
'K
on the phone?
Unidentified voices
Electronic noises.!
GARY: Hello?
in background.!

GARY: Yeah, Steve? V
MR. SCHNEIDER: Apparently, doyou haveit so

we can't call anywhere on the telephone or -GARY: What's that?
l I
~
MR. SCHNEIDER: Has our phone been -- have
you done something to the operator where we can't call
but your number? V

GARY: Yeah, Ithink they've, Ithink they've captured the phone lines, you know, that's -- kind a df
a normal procedure they do out there on that stuff.
Q ~
Have, have you just tried that and

I
it'sworking? not -
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yes. Iwas supposed to call
O
117
someone gap! here and of course Ican't get out to l

anybody but yourself.
GARY: Yeah gap! this,
this just
happened?
MR. SCHNEIDER:Just happened, yeah.
GARY: It's, it's -- Imean, Iwasn't aware
of that, but it's normally somethingthey do in most of

these situations.
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, Iguess
Igot
to --
I'll have to call
you back now indiscernible!.

I'm here now.
GARY: Well,
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, I'm not I I
Ican't talk
Imean as time
to you
.. 92
now. We
you guys --
got to
look
this is this is
bad.
goes on
really not
good at
all. I'll
tell you
GARY: Well
what
--
I'm not happy.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
I'll talk to you
when Ihave
discussed it with someothers here. Bye.

GARY: Okay.
I
Phones hung up!

GARY: Hello?
I I
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #13: Is this

indiscernible! airport?
GARY: Yes, it is,

try sap! I
but this number isnot ;
being used for airport business today.You may wantIto
Dial tone! Phone dialing! Phone ringiqg!

I I
11a
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: H6110?
GARY: Yes, this Gary. May Ispeak to Steye?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Just a
moment, please. GARY: Thank
Pause!
you.
Unidentified female voice in background.! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Gary? GARY: Yes?
other phone talking to GARY: Okay. someone else. Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: He's the On
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Gap! you C

want to hold on just a minute?
GARY: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Okay.

Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #14: I put that number on the top of the indiscernible!. Unidentified voices in background.!
Pause! _ y UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #15: Hey, this is

Jim. Ihope indiscernible!.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #2: COming?

He's coming.
GARY: Okay,
thank you.
C
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED wants to come out.
119
MALE SPEAKER #15: somebody
Pause!
Unidentified voices
UNIDENTIFIED
in background.!
don't know you want him to call Do, do you
FEMALE SPEAKER #2: I Gary. Do
what's taking so long,

you back?
hold for a bit. think he'll be here shortly or -UNIDENTIFIED
GARY: I
can
FEMALE SPEAKER#2: I
don't
know. I wasn't one the thatwent tocheck tosee where

C
he was so --
GARY: Okay. come back to this area
Okay. You,
you expect him to
and then you'll, you'll tell him
to call
me up?
UNIDENTIFIED
FEMALE SPEAKER#2: Yeah. why don't we do that then?
GARY: Okay,
I I 1
from him,
UNIDENTIFIED
FEMALE SPEAKER #2: Okay.
GARY: I'll,
I'll sithere and hope to hear
okay?
UNIDENTIFIED
FEMALE SPEAKER #2= Okay. in background.!
All
right. Bye-bye.
Unidentified voices
r 92
Tape 5,
side B!
Phone rings!
120
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #16: Hello, Pat? GARY: Who are you trying to reach, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #16:Pat McGhee? GARY: He's not at this number today and
won't be. You may want to try gap!. Phone dialing! Phone ringing!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Hello?
GARY: Yeah, this is

waiting for a call from Steve.
Gary again.
Did --
Iwas
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Just a

minute, just a minute.
GARY: Sure.
Unidentified female voice in background.!'
f
Gary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3:Can YOU Se
if Steve can come to the phone? Gary.Tell him it's

Unidentified male voices in background.!
Pause!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Pick up yqur

I
phone. He's still not

this time.
able to come tothe phone at
1 l
GARY: Okay. Does --will he be coming to;

the phone in a little bit or -~
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Hopefullyv
Like Isaid,
go myself.
Ijust
sent the
message to him. Ididnt

K
121
GARY: Uhhuh. He's in not the area wherey

you are now? A
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: No.
GARY: Okay.Well, wouldyou just tell hid

that Gary called and --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Okay.

GARY: -he knows how to reach me.
1
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: All right.

GARY: Thanks a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER #3: Okay, bye.

GARY: Bye-bye.
Phones hungup! Phone rings.!

GARY: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #17= Hello, is

this Pat?
GARY: No.
Pat gap!.
Pause! Phone
GARY: Hello?
ringing!
MR. SCHNEIDER: Hello, this

Schneider.
is Steve *
GARY: Yes,Steve, this is Gary again.

getting Jim?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Gary, how are youdoing with

GARY: Well, there's been no changein, in
that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: There hasn't?
122
GARY: No.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And it's about 5:00 going on

five to 2:00?
GARY: Yeah, MR. SCHNEIDER:

GARY: Yeah.
I've got 1:53. Exactly.
M. SCHNEIDER:
So, what,
what, what'staking
place, because
and --
we wanted to get
the process
going again
GARY: Well,
like I
told you,
we're, we're
ready to
long.
start the
process and we have been all
day '
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Obviously, you
know, I
was
just on
was able
the other
to talk
line,
with them.
a phone
call came
through, I
GARY: Uhhuh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: them back and now

GARY: Yeah. M. SCHNEIDER:
And they
asked me
to call
that line's
been cut.
I'm --
GARY: I,
were cut earlier?
I thought
you told
me the
lines I
MR. SCHNEIDER:
were. I didn't realize
Well, they
there was
-- all
one last
of them
one. Y
GARY: How
place?
many lines
do you
have in that
'
123
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Well, with
--
Idon't--
should I - MR.
airport. I
-- you probably already

GARY: No, I'm --
know because none -are working

here at
SCHNEIDER: -- of the
GARY: -I'm way back over
don't --
now.
the
M. SCHNEIDER: Gary, I'm going to tell you,
I'm,--I'm I can understand -- we have -- look, they

asked meabout you guys, I mentioned your name andI
mentioned Jim.
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:And I said these

to see anymore loss of life and --
guys are
doing anawesome job with us, they want-- they don't

GARY: Well, that's right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and, and Itold
them that.
And I -- really, I said I have thehighest regard for these people as, as David does, he thinks, you know,
they have shown us a lot of, of decency and, and -- but there's thing oneif you could do for us, if you could leave one line openfor the spiritual aspect because I
really why I'm here, out why we're all here -GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is
that they have
questions about our doctrine,I mean that's major a

thing to us. I mean, if we could
92
gap!.
.
124
GARY: Who was thatyou were just talking I

with, Steve? '
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Pardon?
GARY: You were referring

to about this?
to talking
to, to
him orwhatever. Who, who, who were you just talking

MR. SCHNEIDER: You mean on the telephone?
GARY: Yeah, yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. What's that
oh-oh,
here wego. What's happening? Justa minute. Whats happening? Okay.I guess they're moving in on us,
C
!
huh?
GARY: Nobody's moving in on you.
MR. SCHNEIDER: He's Gary -- is telling me
nobody is. Talk to me, youpeople. Okay. They're,

they're checking it out.
GARY: I that no
| w 1
I
-- and you'll find out as before to --
one's making any efforts
MR. SCHNEIDER: Oh, Gary,I mean,you know,

it's obvious that --
GARY: Now, we've we've been, through,, been
l l 1
we've through been this -- I

M. SCHNEIDER: -- you know I've never been,
in this situation, none of ushave been like this in j

our lives, you know.
GARY: Well,I don't think anybody alive has
92
9
125
been throughevents like, like what everyone's just

gone through here. '
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly. So,

it's -GARY: Yeah.
you know, its,
MR. SCHNEIDER: - it's something newand,
and, you know, one doesn't want to do anything rapidly

GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and make mistakes and -GARY: Well, you know, I know we, we Y
mentioned to you this several timesand I want youto,

to understand we mean this. I
come in there and try to --
don't know how to, to
make it more, more clearto you. Nobody'sto going

MR. SCHNEIDER: David keeps -- Gary, I'm
sorry, I didn't want to cut
GARY: That's okay.
you off
--
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- but David -- asking me
right now,
asking?
how come Jim hasn't called he keeps on

GARY: Um-hum.
M. SCHNEIDER: I'm serious. Here's a

QUY "
.GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that, you
know, he --
126
that's, that's what he's asking for.
GARY: Well, your boss there and,

running into
and, and I know David's, David's I"m

bosses here.
that be so hard
and I'm -+ you know, candidly
some problems with my

MR. SCHNEIDER: Why would
when he actually gap!.

GARY: Let me explain it to you.
MR. SCHNEIDER:If you

problem and you want to do
want to alleviate the

what is so hard
the best,
about getting an individualthat, that was working so

well?
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, that's his -- one his
desires, to continue on in the process. It is nothing

against yourself. GARY: No, It's I know, I know that. i
MR. SCHNEIDER:- it's just that,
you know,
between the words that were shared between them, I'm
going to respect that with him.- The man already showed me more than I ever dreamed could be possible for a E
human beingto learn so I give him the respect in
saying that he would like to continue this negotiation

himself as he started
GARY: Um-hum.
it with,
with Jim.
"
'
MR. SCHNEIDER:I mean, it's nothing with

l 92
you. It's
his desire.
And what he, what
he
127
understands about that, all the whys, you know, that's, that's he's -showed me andtold us both, you know, some ofthe reasons but I want to be able to give that
and say well, well, talk to let's continue to do that then. the situation
And it's not that I'm going not to -- I'll continue no

you, Gary, but with the, with
with the children and, and continuing to work this omt

I'll, I'll talk to you, buthe would like to talk with
Jim and, and -GARY: I know that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- hear his voice again and,

and --
GARY: know I that.He -~one of,one ofthe

Q things I have to contend withjust like David, David
is, is, is the boss inside there. I have tocontend

with some bosses here.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Do you have, you have a
speaker phone where they can hearme right now?
GARY: No. ,
MR. SCHNEIDER: I wish, I wish you did so
that they could hear what I'm saying, you're saying, ,
maybe they could make a judgment on that unless you

want to just keep going back to them or whoever they
are. . _
GARY: Well,I, I want to -~ if you let me

,
finish, whatI wantto explainto youis youtold me
128
how David understood -- didn't understand why, whywe couldn'tJim get here. In the same token,I think, I
think you could understand that my bosses don't
understand you whycan't just talk to me.They, they

-- from their point of view --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Because look, you're -GARY: -it's just as much --
MR. SCHNEIDER; -- on a side where you're
okay, you're not going to be in any
trouble when this
is all over. We're in a precarious position dealing with our own lives.That's I mean, -- it's totally a
different situation.
GARY: And I think

do anything to --
you know that I
wouldn't
MR. SCHNEIDER: If I
were in your
place I
would be saying the very samethings to someone like me, I would be, I, I
GARY: Um-hum.
can't disagree with you on that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: But being that we're in this

predicament and, and it's a nightmare of course -GARY: Okay. .
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and we havethe deepest

regret about the whole -- the loss of life with
mean, we can't tellyou enough. ~
-- I
GARY: Okay. Let, let

I'm, I'm going to --
me, let me do this.
92
Q
I
1,29
GARY: -
I'm going to renew

Thank you.
my efforts
to --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: --
to see
if
Ican
appeal the
situation. But
be able to convey
when I go to my bosses, now Ihave to

to them -All right.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: - the sense of how bringing Jim here is going to make some, some,some positive influence -MR. SCHNEIDER: Well --
GARY: -on events.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. Well, you tell them
h
they, they
that David he saw -- there was a -started with Jim.

GARY: Yeah.
started yesterday -- the whole negotiating process
MR. SCHNEIDER: He did

the attitude.
so well, his demeanor,

he, he did a wonderful
GARY: Well,
job. -
Iknow,
MR. SCHNEIDER:He really

sincerity and -GARY: Umhum.
did, and,
and the
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- and David, he -- it's
nothing against you, but he beganwith the man and he

wanted to continue.
Q O
130
GARY: Well,
I, I
understand, I
understand
that, believe
offended by
me. And believe me, I'm, I'm, I'm not

that.
M. SCHNEIDER:
Right.
GARY: But, but again now, now, put yourself
in my shoes for a minute. Now, I've got to go to my

bosses.
MR. SCHNEIDER:I, I I -in fact
think you
can do it, I,
I know you can, Gary --
GARY: Okay.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- because

is still a volatile
GARY: Yeah.
you know that this
situation.
MR. SCHNEIDER: I mean, like yourself we say

we want to do it and
GARY: Um-hum.
work out an arrangement where --A

-
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- not only the children are

spared but we all have a, a chance. And so, you know,
this is what we're, we're working for and I knowyou

are. You've, you've many said timesand I believe you
when you say that there'sone no out there that
more loss of life and, you know --
wants
a
GARY: Well,
there's, there's more than
chance, there's absolutely no reason inthe worldwhy 1

WE can't --
' MR. scrmsxnsm Exactly.
131
GARY: --
we can't--
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, Ilike
hearing that. issue
GARY: .-resolve this peacefully. And, and

Isee no obstacle other than this unfortunate
that's developed. But, but Steve, if, if you'll listen

to me for a minute because this is very important.
Now, if I, if I go in to the bosses one more time, okay, andIsay listen, David is absolutely adamant
about talkingto Jim, Ihave to be able to convey to

them how
going to
that, that process

benefit the --
is, is going to
specifically -- Ican't talk today

MR. SCHNEIDER:
-- howit's really
Well, here's --
GARY: -- what we're trying to do. Imean,

for example
I
--
MR. SCHNEIDER:Well, let something that's going to

GARY: Gap!
me -- here's
benefit it.
MR. SCHNEIDER: If it's not done that way-GARY: Yeah.

1 8
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- well then we're at a total

loss and if you just want to --
GARY: Well, I, I know,Iknow you're saying
that, but can you be, can you be more specific with me?
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, meaning that if, if, if
we don't follow through with that desire
of his,
andI
Q O
132
don't think it's unreasonable, and if they don't want
to bend well then to me it's showing that they -GARY: No, but it's not --
MR. SCHNEIDER:
Indiscernible!
GARY: --
a matter of bend.
But you have to
understand all the bureaucrats out here, all the
law-
enforcement officers, they don't deal in the realm of the desire and understand,they're, they're more in the
area of some, some concrete --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Yeah, I would agreewith you

about the lack of understanding because --
GARY: Well,and I, and I want to try to help

them understand and I'm looking -MR. SCHNEIDER:You know, like that's what
we're --
GARY: -bureaucrats too.
I'm looking to you -believe that about the
MR. SCHNEIDER:-- I
GARY: -- I'm, looking I'm to you to help me
to help them understand. Now, now, it's time that we, we discussed for example how do youthink we might be able to move towards, towards resolving this situation?
If I can impartupon them that bringing Jim backis
going to start us
and, and, and --
down that path
of, of, of settlement

he hasn't spoken
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, David
133
to me
about all
GARY:
the ideas
Yeah.
but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- you
know, but
he starts
talking with Jim that he will develop -GARY: Well --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that he will

indiscernible!.
develop
GARY: - no, but you see, it's like we're,
we're, we're putting what came first the chicken or the egg. If I can -- I tell you, I've talked to the bosses
and, and --
MR. SCHNEIDER: This is a very strong desire

of a group that's -GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- in a very precarious

situation. -
GARY: I know that, I knowthat. But,

little more specific --
but if
I can demonstrate benefit, a and, and if you could be a

MR. SCHNEIDER: The benefit is that gap!
maybe allwalk out of this place andsit down
ultimately and whatever else needs to bedone for,

the loss, loss of life.
for
GARY: Well, no, there's no question

we can do that, and, and --
what
you're ultimately saying may be, of course, of course
134 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay. That's -- well,
that's
what I'm saying.

trustful way --
But the best way we see it, the
most
GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- is to do it that

"GARY:
children again?
way.
Okay. Now, if, if
we're able to do
this, we're ready to start with the process with the

MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, he's speaking to me. I'm sorry, Gary, just one second, one second.
GARY: Yeah, I'll hold
Pause!
on. Go
ahead.
t.
M. SCHNEIDER: Doing this -GARY: Huh?
! 16
17
MR. SCHNEIDER: He said he was with Jim to see how trustworthy and -GARY: Um-hum.
doing this
I 1a
I ' 19
20 I21 1 ~22
-4 MR. SCHNEIDER: -how the whole systemwould operate, this is why. He's waiting to see -- and now
it's looking
pretty bad, that'sstatement. his

GARY: Well, I, I wouldn't agree with that.
MR. SCHNEIDER: And gap! if I were to gap!
to him what you've been telling me, that you've go to

to your bosses, you know, and how they're going to take it, well, that's that - makes it even look andsound
worse.
u 135
GARY: Yeah.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
what it sounds like.
I mean,
bottom line
that's
GARY: Well,
understand --
no, no.
Now, we have to
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, see Jim talked in a way
where he was supposed to be the man that was the one_

giving the word right all the way through, that he was
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
connecting with this agency, that agency,holding them backV-GARY: Well --
MR: SCHNEIDER: -- passing the word right on

from yesterday when it all began. GARY: Ithink
very tragic --
Jim worked very hard
to
accomplish some very significant things concerningthe

MR. SCHNEIDER:Well gap! the trust that
David developed with him and let's, let'shim bring

back. I'm, I'm sure that he would be a man -GARY: But, but, but --
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- that would love to play a

part in that process indiscernible! have him.
GARY: -- he --
you're, you're -- Iagree
with you,but you're, you're avoiding my, my need on
this too. I, Iwant to helpyou but Ineedyou tohelp

me and whatIneed to show my boss is that hey, if we
136
bring Jim
forward again, to happen.
I mean
this is -so.
what's
positively going
Imean
Well, do
MR. SCHNEIDER:
GARY: and, and about all this is
give you something that
an example,
okay? Just
--
we've been talking about Chrissie and
day anyway.
We talked
Brian and,
and that
once we get them
out we were going
to start the process. You said once they come out the
process begins was -and it won't stop until it's over. If I now, that'ssomething you'vealready talked This is not some sort of a, a new
about doing.
concession or a new idea. If

into my bosses and say listen,
Iwere
to be able to
me that if
go
I
they assure
can get Jim here we can start this their guarantee, that this is going
process and I've got says got a
Steve has assured me that David to happen, then I think I've
real good chance toconvince them that, that --
MR. SCHNEIDER; Well see, that's okay, -Gary, that's --
GARY: Don't you think

reasonable indiscernible!. -
that's, that's a
MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, that'sexactly what David said last night. by Jim
f
He -even to
you know what? When stop and get a little rest
it
was suggested
--
GARY :Um
- hum .
137
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- Davidactually said to me -- he was bothered because he wanted to continue to

indiscernible! the
GARY: Yeah.
children out.
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's the truth.

GARY: Well, I, I--
MR. SCHNEIDER: That's honestly the truth.
GARY: --I'mitsure is, but we're talking
about lastnight. Now,how_can back we on track right

now today?
MR. SCHNEIDER: By, by beginning again with

Jim --
GARY: Right.
MR. SCHNEIDER: -- and continuing onand, and
if he wants toinvolve you and you're on theother line

or Italk to you or whatever else -GARY: Well, I'll be involved --
MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay, sure.
GARY: -- throughout this process.

MR. SCHNEIDER:Okay.
GARY: But, but can Igo to my boss andtell
him that? Can Igo to my boss and say thatif we can
get Jim here that little Chrissie and Brian are going
to come out and the other kids --
MR. SCHNEIDER: Now you got it. Yeah,
if we_
can get Jim there can, canhe sayto his bosses that
138
r. 92
little Chrissie
- that's-- he
and Brian gap! yeah, that's what we're

says that's exactly what
with Jim. That's
we were doing
when we were talking
indiscernible! GARY: Okay. MR. SCHNEIDER: -- we never wanted

GARY: -ready to come out, and --
_
So they're, they're, they're -to stop.
MR. SCHNEIDER:
That's correct.
GARY: -additional children
and once will come
they come out?
out the
MR. SCHNEIDER: Exactly, exactly. GARY: And we're going to try

essentially -I 92
That's -to replicate
MR. SCHNEIDER: Here, I'm, I'm going to -GARY: -the process -- hand we did last night? to David,
M. SCHNEIDER:
okay, Gary? GARY: Sure,
you over
that'1l be fine.
MR. SCHNEIDER: Okay. Here

David?
he is.
Hi,
M. KORESH:
Hey Gary,
listen --
. GARY:
How are you feeling,
David?
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Yeah?
Don't worry. Look --
MR. KORESH: -- last

F 92.
night we
had about
four
or five different people calling all the time telling
139
us what
to do,
right? yeah.
Yeah indiscernible!.
GARY: Yeah,
MR. KORESH=
GARY: This
was before,
before Jim
started?
M. KORESH:Well, during
first contacted Jim, all right?
GARY: Uh-huh.
the time Jim - we
MR. KORESH:
Now, when
I established
with Jim
who he was I told him,

you're all saying drop
says indiscernible! --
I said,
look, now,
you're,
your weapons,
come on out, I
Unidentified female
voice in
background.! do something
MR. KORESH: -- we've got to
because Jim kept saying we got to develop a trust

GARY: Right,
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Um-hum.
--
right.
- you know?
MR. KORESH:
So what
happens is,
is that
it
came to the point where Jim said "Look, don't talk to

the way to the end."
he says, you know,
anybody else, don't negotiate with
anybody else." He said,"We're to going do this all

GARY: Right.
MR. KORESH:And so we started we had a little,

beginning.
it. We at the
had,
we had a little trouble
140 GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: But, you

our system going to
GARY: Yeah.
know, we finally got
get my
babies out.
MR. KORESH: now, you know, you
Okay. Now, part of
I told
him, I
said,
keep your
the deal
and I'll'
keep my part of babies out

got to do --
the deal,
then once we get all the about what we've
then we'll start talking
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: GARY: Um-hum,
-- for
the rest
of them.
um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
Now, last
night Jim,
Jim told
Steve that
he was tired and
he had to get
some rest.
Now, he -- we -- he said, "Why don't guys you get some

rest and we'll -GARY: Yeah. "--
MR. KORESH: this in

I
-- "
-- and
we'll take care of
the morning?"
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:And, and it's -I thought, well, you
know, let's -- why stop, you
know? Because
the babies were sleeping anyway, we'd have towake them

up --
GARY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: -- to
get them ready.
;l
141 GARY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Now, okay. So okay, you know, I

agree, this is okay, you know, this is -- the ball is
on your
side of
the court.
So now, I mean,
you know,
you came on and you -in and saying trust
you know, you're, you're coming

all that and that'snot
you and question.
the, that's not the

GARY: Uh-huh.
MR. KORESH:
The, the
question is,
am, am I
going to
show that
my integrity
is to
adhere to
the
agreements that
I've previously made.
GARY: Well,
would leave
do you, do you think Jim

if he
would,
me on the phone
didn't think I had
the integrity
phone to do just
and to, to talk

that, to
and deal with you?

think he left you on the
MR. KORESH: I, I
talk -to, to,

-- and
GARY: Yeah,
MR. KORESH:
to -he --
GARY: -
not, not
to keep you busy, but to he had laid.

he said.
move forward with the

MR. KORESH:
GARY: Well
groundwork that
No, that'snot what

--
M. KORESH: That's not what our agreement

was.
GARY: -- the, the confusion I think lied
in,
in the separate line that was
going onwith Wayne. And
92
142
what Jim was meaningat that

sure we were staying
person.
time was he
wanted to be
one
on one line and
talking to
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Yeah.
Look, me
and Jim
talked --
MR. KORESH: -- all

exactly what we talked
GARY: Yeah.
day yesterday.
I know
about --
MR. KORESH:
-- and
what we
--
GARY: I know. You know, David, it's just that we've, we've, we've turned this issue into a --
just, just a major stumbling blocktoday and,and -MR. KORESH: Becauseit is a point
want to see about you guys -GARY: Um-hum.
that I
MR. KORESH: -- to see whether you're just
wearing a mask or whether you're actually genuine human

beings with genuine human sympathy.
GARY: Um-hum. Well, of in this world that do a job -GARY: Um-hum.
course we are.
MR. KORESH: See, there's, there's ministers
MR. KORESH: -- and they are, they are as

fake as a three-dollar bill.
GARY: Well, I, I
understand that and --
MR. KORESH: Yeah, nowyou do understand
143
that. Now,
here's the deal. You'retelling me death, but

to try
you
don't want anymore

the propaganda
what you're showing me is

one's self involved in
to promote
a situation if you
that deals
with the of the
lives of fence you
others. Now, would
were on this side
understand what I'm talking about; if side of the fence
I was on your
I would understand what you're
talking about because I am me. You see, that's why,

that's why that in the doctrine that I teach, I teach
it no
matter how incriminating
it is against me. the agent next door,
That's what I was trying to

I was showing him the truth
do for
about me.
GARY: What
MR. KORESH:
agent next
That was
door
is that,
Dave?
and
Robert Gonzalez
Jeff and
those guys.
Now, the reason why, the reason on you guys is because
why, you know, we were waiting
like I
knows all
said, we
have a communication with somebody that
things -GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- the
alpha and
omega. And
told Robert, I looked at him and looked into his eyes,

I says, "Robert, you know I've showed you the truth out
of the book, I am notgoing to hide anythingfrom you.

And I says, "But now yougot to make adecision, you've
got to do what you'veto got do and I've got to do what
I'veto got do."
And I gave himevery opportunity to
144
know that there's God in heaven a that judges the

hearts of men andknows the minds of men. And I
thought and was hopingfor sure he would choose to be
able to get with you guysand saylook, the guy showed

me somethingout of the book, he's genuine and the
problem is we don't understand himand we need

and talk.
GARY: Yeah.
to come
did.
M. KORESH= And see,Idid everything in my power toavoid yougentlemen coming and doingwhat you
I
r k
GARY: Ihave to apologize to you because I
don'tGonzknow I'm, I'm with not ATF and I, andI

wasn't involved in that
MR. KORESH:
process.
Well --
I--
GARY: - Idon't know all the backgroundto

that.
MR. KORESH: Well, Jim's with ATP.
GARY: Right, but I'm just telling

I l
you I, I
don't, Idon't want togive youthe sense that Iknow all of the background of this because, because Idon't.
MR. KORESH: Well, Ibrought him into my
house and everything -GARY: Um-hum.
l I
MR. KORESH: -you
know? Ihave, Ihave
nothing hide to as long as you let me open up the Bible
14$
GARY: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: -- and see, if you'd listen to a

man's religion.
GARY: I
think if
we'd put sunshine on
this
whole matter we're going all to be better off. I

MR. KORESH: But --
think
MR. GARY: -- there's opportunity to
have a
lot of things that, that you want to say andI, I

we can help you do that.
think
MR. KORESH= Look, I

I 92
know what I know and
obviously you know youdon't know what I know.

GARY: I wouldn't begin to pretend to know
everything that's in your mind and in your heart,

David.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Now,the Bible is a big book and the harmony of what the prophetshave been shown must be harmonized, otherwise men of this
generation cannot know that the prophets are inharmony

with themselves. Any organization that is not in
harmony with itself cannot stand. The churches because there areso many of themis obviousproof that somebody wrong. is If there is one God, he should be
worshiped as one God and he should have one people with

4-
one name and one truth. And
so God has in wisdom
146
reserved atestament so that all men withopen eyes and

open minds might see that that credential servant of God mustbe able to plainly called the reveal the seven
seals in the light of the prophets. I
didn't write
that. That was written long before I came into the world and you came into the world. And so becauseit
is written, it is written that we mightknow and now
because have I been misunderstood it's not by those who've me heard oropened the book and saw the words,
it's those by who refused to listen. So
you're --
-'
GARY: Um-hum, um-hum. Well, David, I know

MR. KORESH: How come Jim --
GARY: You know, you, you sound, you sound
like you're really hurting right now and I'm, I'm very
concerned for you.
MR. KORESH: How come Jim hasn't come inyet? GARY: Okay.What I was trying to explain to
Steve, and, and I'm trying to help youto understand,
what my bosses -they wanted him to have some sleep

and I told Steve,beginning more and more realized that this is an absolutely critical item for you, but before
I can go in to my bosses and, and convince them that, that bybringing Jim this is going tomake very a
positive impact on the events.
M. KORESH:The children are going to be let
92
GO
147
/ 92.
out of like we
here as agreed. -
long as
Jim is
communicating with
me
GARY: Yeah,
yeah. See,
what they
don't
understand, David,
wrapping everything
just a voice for,
is, is,
into one
for the
is why you're, you're

person, because Jim is
authorities here.
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Of
No, Jim
is a
is.
person.
course he
MR. KORESH:
authorities.
He's notjust a
voice for
the
GARY: But,
of, of
now, now
r 92
but he
speaks for
the authority
that's --
the on-scene
commanders here
talking with
and, and
Jim, I
you're comfortable and I
understand that,
understand --
MR. KORESH: Well, let

Gary. He authority also has that I GARY: I respect for speak in
me explain
the voice
again,
of the
behalf of. for that too Dave, I
have respect
have respect
for that
too and
So then
you know that.

why do you not adhere to
MR. KORESH:
the original
agreements? I mean, what is it?

then, what,
to?
Are you
GARY: Well
agreement are
what original
you referring
MR. KORESH:
additional -92 k
Me and Jim to
.
avoid a
lot of
Q
.
GARY: Um-hum.
I
148
MR. KORESH: -- confusion

GARY: Um-hum.
and flak
--l
MR. KORESH: -- we decided and agreed and
confirmed that we woulddeal with nobody elsebut -GARY: Well, see --
MR. KORESH: -- Jim and that's why -GARY: -promise.
see, the
on-scene commanders are .
telling me that Jim never, nevermade that,that

MR. KORESH: That's not--
GARY: He, he was going to talk with you and
W 92-
work withyou, but I think you, you put more into that
than what he said.
MR. KORESH: That'strue, not Gary.
, GARY:
Yeah? Well, I'll, I'll tell you what
I'dto like do. I'dto like reach out to Jim myself
and get a clarificationon this. But now, for me to go
in and convince bosses my that hey, I've got toget Jim

here totalk to David, thisis just an imperative so that we can move forward and, and get back on track and make, make, make some progress here so thatwe can all
resolve this situation --
MR. KORESH: Get thething overwith, yeah.
GARY: Well, we don't want tosee anybody

p >
else get hurt. For me to do that,can, can I tell them
' !
149?
that if,
if we
bring Jim
here that
we can
start the
process again
of the
children getting
Immediately. okay. I
them out?
MR. KORESH:
GARY: Immediately,
your guarantee --
have, I
have
MR. KORESH:
Immediately.
GARY: --
that if,
if I
can get last night,
Jim here
--
MR. KORESH: Just like

immediately.
GARY: Okay.I have, I have your wordon

that then?
MR. KORESH: You have
_
God's word on that.
GARY: Okay.
92
Well, I'll, I'll accept that

me talk to them.
warmly. And
okay, let
MR. KORESH: That's what we've been trying to

tell you all night long, Gary.
GARY:Well, I
me -- you feel try to so strongly explain to
know, and it's hard for

about it it's hard for me to out here and
you the perspective from
I, I think I've failed in doing

malicious intent in that. the, for the bosses here to
that. But I want you

there's no
to understand and I hope you believe that
It's just it's difficult for fully comprehendand
understand what's going on and, and I'm, trying I'm to help them to understand.And I think we're making some
progress now,but you, you've given me something to
Q Q
150 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
which I
let's --
can carry to them now and I

let's get Jim here
can make a very

hotel and
strong pitch,
from the
MR. KORESH:
GARY: --
And let's-and let's --
MR. KORESH: -- get
these babies
out of
here.
GARY: Because you've, you've guaranteed me
now that we can start the

there, David?
process. How many kids are

I
MR. KORESH: You'll find out when

them all. '
you get
GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
There's lot, a okay?
GARY: Oh, there is? special --
Do, do we need any enough to walk or

are like
I mean, are they all old

MR. KORESH:
No, some of them
newborns.
GARY: Newborns, yeah, okay.

MR. KORESH: So --
GARY: What's gap! to

out?
do it
like we
.
did~
before, two-by-twoor did you wantto send more ofthem

MR. KORESH: Like -just like
~
Jim and I
25
agreed.
' GARY:Yeah. Is,
is that the -- is that the
92
92
.1.51
easiest method
trust.
r/'
to do it or, or is there other idea --
'
MR. KORESH=
It establishes
a greater
line of
GARY: Okay,
that's, that's good, good
for
us. All
my bosses
right. Let
and, and
me then
discuss with
go with
that, David,
go to
them what
we've talked
about. And
I feel
more optimistic now rather
that I've got you know, we
something concrete
than just,
have to
talk, we
have to
talk. Now
I've, I've got some
firm commitments.
MR. KORESH: this all last night.

~ GARY: well, it
Well, I
went indiscernible!
really didn't
come out
that
way to
tell you
the truth
it, it
and maybe it was
my
now to
misunderstanding, but
me.
- it's more clear
MR. KORESH:
GARY: And --
All right.
MR. KORESH: Once Jim gets on
the phone
and
he sends a van two more children are

GARY: Okay.
going to
be there.
MR. KORESH:
See, now
they, now
they can
know
that there's no peoplein the, in the, in the trailer

up at the front so we'll just decide whether he wants
us to
drive them
down to the water
tanks or
whether he
wants us to just
drop them up at the front
part of
the
92 7
OO
property.
GARY: Umhum. MR. KORESH: S0 --
152
GARY: Okay. hopefully we can do it in can work a way
when, when those details
he gets out and
here so that we and
that's satisfactory it and we can
to everybody make some
everybody feels
progress.
good about
MR. KORESH: GARY: Okay? MR. KORESH:
Okay.
Thank you,
I appreciate
it.
GARY: Okay.
well, well,
are you
going to
be
there now
where I
can reach
out to
you on the phone?

here,
MR. KORESH:
Yeah, I'll always be
that's I ain'tgoing nowhere.

GARY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
Are you
I can't
able to
move.
walk around?
GARY: Really?
Do you
have any
extra
medications that,
MR. KORESH:
that you
need or
something?
right.
No, Im
doing all
GARY: Okay.
out there to a hospital
We'd like, we'd like to get

as soon as we can.
you
MR. KORESH:A No, I don't, don't I if know

that do any good anyway.
GARY: Well,
I, I
think -
we don't want you
to suffer
an injury
that's going
to take your life,
you
5 92
L53
know, I
mean --
MR. KORESH:
Gary --
GARY: -
you suffered -- you
an injury. know, this old world --
MR. KORESH:
GARY: I
know, I
know.
MR. KORESH: right?
- some
ATF agents
have died,
GARY: That's right. MR. KORESH: GARY: And I'm no better than you're noworse and, they are. and, and
there's alot of
mean yesterday anybody else
bloodshed that
and believe me, we
happened today
and --
don't want to see It doesn't --
die from
wounds received.
that's not going to

else who --
bring back
the lives
of anybody
MR. KORESH: You know, you know what? You

know what one of the greatest pains there is, is when I
look out
out there
a window and see those, those

-GARY: Um-hum.
young men laying
MR. KORESH:
and
to think
that if
it'd
been on a different
friends. I
situation
I think
You know
we could
have been good
GARY: Yeah,
MR. KORESH:
you're right.
--
GARY: You're right.
.'
MR. KORESH: GARY: Yeah, commitment to go on - that's, yeah. well, and, and
154
that's what hurts. we have to make better than a
making things
they wereand learn from the mistakes of the past and

indiscernible!. MR. KORESH: never learns the mistakes well, the of the thing is past. is that man
GARY: Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

MR. KORESH:
about the Lord GARY: Yeah.
In the
book of
Zefenia it
talks
MR. KORESH:
being in
a certain
nation that
would not voice says will bring
receive instructions, the just lord in
you obeyed the midst
not the you
thereof and
indiscernible! for
his judgment
indiscernible! to will know

seals, you
light every Talks about
morning but a person
the unjust revealing the
no shame.
know? GARY: Well,
let's hope that we,
we've, we've
learned from can avoid
our mistakes
at least in this
to the
point that
we
anymore bloodshed
MR. KORESH:
situation, okay?
give me a call back
Okay. So
then, all
right? Y
I GARY:
soon as I have
Okay. We'll be calling

a chance to talk to the
you back
bosses.
as
MR. KORESH:
Tell the
bosses to
give us
some
I ",
lines again, all right?
155
Well, I'll to them. Let's --
GARY: Okay.
I'm working on Jim first, okay?

MR. KORESH: GARY: Good
MR. KORESH:
L
you.
Okay. Thank enough. Bye-bye.

Bye.
Phones hung end of tape!
up!
k 2 I
U
92
92 1
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
& FIREARMS
I 92 92
TAPE #6
2/28/93
misdated as
note: tapes 4 and 5 dated March 1; tape 6 may be

Feb. 28.!
92
12 Tape 6! DAVID: Okay, here Iam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: David?

DAVID: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER: Okay.
Well, I've
got some good news for you.

DAVID: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: But rather thank
me saying
it,
Ithink
Ihave
somebody here
that maybe
can explain it to
DAVID: Okay.
you a little bit

Hey, this what are buddy, how
better. Okay?
is Jim. you doing? you doing?
JIM: David? DAVID: So, JIM: Hey,
DAVID: Well, I'm, wondering I'm what, whats

going on.
JIM: Oh, shoot, I've been kind of worried
about you.
I've beenkind of
out of
touch and
apologize.
tell you
Iknow
Gary's been helping you.

The commanders
Let me
to
what happened.
wanted me
get some rest. You know, one of thoseagents Iknew

pretty good.
I
DAVID: Uh-huh.
I 1
i 92
JIM: And
Iwas
kind of
upset about
it. And
they wanted
me to
get some
rest, you
know. And
-- but,
listen, and
then after
that,
Iwent
by Human Services
to see
if the
kids were okay. And
I'm sorry it took on? '
so
long. How
have you been getting

DAVID: Well,
JIM: Still
DAVID: No. JIM: Geez.
you know,
can't move?
I'm laying here.
DAVID: But the deal, like I you know, I told

you.
was telling
him,
him I made, Imade an agreement with
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And I'm not going

not going to break that at all.
to break
So --
that, I'm
JIM: I
know you're --
DAVID: And I realize

take it up in the
JIM: Yeah. DAVID: So --
you needed sleep last
night, you know. So I told him, I said well, we can

morning.
JIM: But,
you know
--
DAVID: --
what we was doing, right?
JIM: Right.
you anybody that, you
Buddy, youknow I wouldn't give

know, you couldn't trust and -agreed on.
DAVID: Well, that's not what we
I probably could trust this guy,

trust me. The matter is,
but, you know, it's
not a matter of us trusting somebody someone or saying

is we made a deal and we've
92
4 F 92_
been having with people
calls from telling

JIM: Yeah.
all these us what to do.
different directions H
DAVID: Wanting
JIM: Sure,
us to
I understand.
make a deal
with them.
DAVID: You
we're not bookies, we
JIM: Yeah,
DAVID: S0 I
know, you
can't -you know,

of deal.
But --
don't dothat kind

I understand.
~-
JIM: Gary -listen,

David, that
and, you
let me tell you,

He went out here
here.
Gary did a real
good job.
know, he's got all
these commanders
And, I mean, just bunches

f s.
of them, and he really went

look, David wants to
out on
a limb
and he
just said
talk to
Jim and, and David's going to
work with
us, but
you've to -- he gotwants to talkto Jim right now.

And so, he, he really went to bat for you.
guy. It's-# I have a lot of
He's good a
like
responsibility, just
you do.
position.
You know, a lot of things on my shoulders, you, and I sympathize with your
-
too, and just like
And so -- Garytold methat, you know, if I

came back, that you promised to send some kids out.
And, of course, I knew you

DAVID: That
anyway. /' 92
would anyway.
was our original agreement
JIM: Right. already know me. The guy that. I is as
Well, I mean, you good as
my
reply was
hey, I tell
don't even have to and his word is
his word
golden. And night that,
I remember you know,
--
in fact,
I thought and Brian
last would,
maybe Chrissy
you know,
get out
after I
left. But,
hey, that's okay. I up
We can, we can do it commanders together, the shuttle cars and,

I said
now. And
once Gary got the to set
I've already told them you know, get it

to do
ready.
that's the
David wants
it and
way we're going to getting the
do it.
So, you know, they're down there and, you

it. But, know. I
cars ready
of get
know, just
listen, know
so we can kind I'm, I'm kind of
together on
feeling for
you, you
you've got a big
responsibility
with all your
people in
there and I'm sure it's weighing

DAVID: Well,
pretty heavy heavy on
on you.
you read
I'm hoping that what
in the
Bible last
night was weighing

win, okay?
you.
Jim, I'm going to
JIM: Yeah. DAVID: No, see, if
We're all going to we're not all going to God that we
win. to win. You
we don't confess to,

know --
don't know
something, you
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: -
then we're in trouble,

what the seals are
'cause,
about.
see, that's the whole thing,
92
It's atest,
a test to
every man
on earth
that
professes godliness.
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And, night on

scholars. JIM: Um-hum.
now, you You heard
heard those these teachers
guys last and
the radio.
DAVID: You
JIM: Oh,
hear what
yeah.
their explanations
are?
DAVID: Stuttering and sputtering and they

don't know what they're talking about.
you know, turn it
JIM: Yeah.
Why don't they,
off?
DAVID: Okay. going to put your soul in
Now, these the trust
guys of these
you're men that
don't know what they're
doing?
to do that. I'm not
JIM: I'm not going

going to do that.
DAVID: Yeah.
Well, the
thing of
it is
is
that there
are thousands who do.

of people,
Now, you know, I,
I've got me a group

JIM: Right.
right?
DAVID: And seal and Itaught
I've, I've taught them second seal,
the first the third and
them the
the fourth. things change
Iexplained
to them after the
fourth seal
'cause, see, there's only four beasts.
92
' 7 v 92.
In the
first four
seals the to that.
beast is
coming. See,
now,
there'sa meaning
JIM: Right.
DAVID: But
there is
a real
meaning to
it.
But thefifth seal is

it'sa seal that talks
a sad thing for the world because

about -and Ibeheld when the
lamb opened
souls that
the fifth
have been
seal,
slain for
Isaw
under the
altar, the
of God and for
the word
the testimony
oh, Lord
those who
which they
long
held, crying
will not
to God,
saying
upon
God, how
dwell upon
JIM: Hmmm.
avenge our blood
the earth?
f '92
DAVID: You
so that man can have
see, someone
a chance to learn
died 2,000
the truth
years ago
about
condemnation. Somebody
died so
that man
could admit
they don't know what they're doing and they would

listen and
John, all
learn. And
through the
JIM: Yeah.
so, when
Book of
you read
John, Jim
the Book
--
of
DAVID:
-it's always being
said of
Christ
that Christ that which
-- Ican Ireceive
- myself
through nothing, Ispeak,
but for the
of my father that
doctrine is
not mine, but it's my father's. See, they

years ago.
i JIM: Um-hum.
didn't understandthat 2,000
DAVID: So,
heaven tried
to make
it
a little
easier this time so that John the Revelator wrote that

when the Gentiles are
be based on the going to be according
going to be judged,
to the father giving
it's going to
to his son a
same truth
the Jews rejected. It's
book. So that you can now know the doctrine is not

own, it's my father's, you know.
myself, but
received. JIM: Umhum.
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
my
I, Ido
given me
not speak of
that I
what the
father has
DAVID: And so, that's why in these symbols

it's so clear that when Icome in the volume of the
book that's written to writings of all the

JIM: Yeah,
me, Ihave to show you from the

I'm nothing.
prophets what God has already told

Iunderstand.
them about me. Otherwise,
DAVID: You
can't believe flesh and
blood,
you have to, you

stand up to the
have to pass the test. You

credentials.
have to
JIM: Um-hum.
I I I I
DAVID: Now, the fifth
seal, you
know, in
21 22 23 24 25
Isaiah 26, it says we have a strong city.
Salvation
nation which
will guard our
plentiful walls and bulwarks. It says

the righteous
open you the gates that
keeps thetruth may enter in, cause that will keep him in perfect peace whose mind has stayed onme, ohGod, because he trusteth in me. It says trust in the Lord,
92
1 for 2 them
the Lord that dwell
is everlasting on high.
strength. So Yea, the lofty city,
bringeth down Babylon,
3 he'll bring
4 the
S It
it down,
the needy
says let
even to
the dust,
for the
feet o
poor and
shall trod
David be
it underfeet.
showed to the wicked.
6~ Yet,
will they
not learn they would
righteousness? In deal unjustly, the Lord.

will not
the land would thy
of
7 uprightness Bi not
9 hand 10 father
for they Lord, when

see. You
behold the
is lifted upholds his
majesty of
up, they
know, the
word, don't he?
11 JIM:
12 DAVID: 13 14 shall be It says
Right.
But they ashamed for shall see their anger against thy
_
and then they people. pain
Lord, we've been in
pain. We've been in
15
as a woman in travail.
It says
we have not wrought
any
I i 16
17 of
deliverancethe in earth, neither have the inhabitants

the world with my
Then -David --
fallen. It dead body.
says but Awake he
by dead
men shall in the
18 arise
19 dust. 20 JIM:
that dwell
1 21
i221
I _23
24
25 JIM:
DAVID: I know it sounds like poetry to you,

doesn't it?
JIM: No.
DAVID: You
No, no,
Listen, I
all are
no.
just want
going to
to -kill us.
} DAVID:
Because - now, listen,
Jim --
10 -
JIM: We
to do it.
wouldn't do that. We're
not going
DAVID: Jim,
let me
explain something.
You
know, you
many days
know that
before, you
Ican'tlay here,
know Imean,
you know,
too
the infection's
already in
me, okay?
JIM: But, David, we're going to resolve
this.
DAVID; No,
let me
explain something.
You
know, that's why I kept telling last night Ishared

JIM: Um-hum.
Gary that,
you know, didn't I?
Psalms 89 with you,
DAVID: You
p 92
see, inspiration future. The
is same
the ability
God who
for God
to tell
men the
created heaven
and earth,
by his
word, is
the same
pass.
God
who foretells
the future
and brings
it to
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: And so, God forewarns men by sending

prophets, and that's alreadybeen done. But the Jews
would not receive the

so, finally, the New
testimony of
Testament tells
those men.
them
that now
Well,
everybody is
responsible. Now
all the
Gentiles can
be
responsible for
the Jews
knowing and believing these
truths that
you
rejected. So,
now we've come to the time,
know. Seven seals is the big thing nowwe're talking

about.
/ 92
ll
JIM: Right.
,.
DAVID: I
your system
cannot consent
laws and
to your
laws and
is higher.
because my
my system
But don't get me
wrong, don't,
don't think that I
liberally
laws of before, this vindicated the
literally
the country nation was or the
or deliberately
nation because, blessed because the Ten
try to
as I it, it
break the
said
principles of
JIM: I understand.
Commandments.
DAVID: But
what happens
is when
God's truth
comes into the

his eyes
world, no
man is excused from opening

requires. On says, in God
and seeing of this
what God of heaven
the currency
nation's currency it
we trust. Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Now,
are we
talking about
my God that
sits
on the
throne? Are
we talking
to Caesar here?
about giving
what is
to God
what is God's and giving What are we talking

JIM: Yeah.
Caesar's?
about
DAVID: Are we talking

has seven seals which are a mystery
about the god who, who

until there's time
no longer?
Well, that's what we're talking about,

JIM: Yeah, I understand. ~
Jim.
DAVID: And
now people,
they don't, they to.
don't understand because they
choose not
Q
92 w. 92
' 12
Hey, David,
I
hold on just a second.
JIM;
What did hear the
you say? kids, are
Okay. Talking they okay?
to someone else.! I
DAVID: Who's crying over
there? Who's
crying? Who's crying? Look,

Oh, it'sBobby. .
JIM: Bobby? How old
I can't -- who's crying?

--
DAVID: They're just, they're just typical

JIM: How
_ DAVID:
JIM: Star?
--
old's Bobby?
Bobby's -- oh, it's Star?
DAVID: Star
0-
is three.
JIM: Three.
They just
hollered
at me
and
told me
the car
was ready.
DAVID: Okay.
>
JIM: 'And so you might want to just, you know, start getting the kids ready -DAVID: Okay.
JIM: --
to, you
know, get
their coats
and --
it's kind of cold out. I've been out and it's a little
cold and --
DAVID: Well,
they've got jackets and
we'll
JIM: Get
,a 92
their jackets, want us to
yeah. drive them to the
DAVID: You
water tank, right?
92
13
92 92 ~_.
JIM: Yeah.
If we
could do
it, it
would --
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: That'd be the best, I think. Is
i
--
DAVID: Darryl's let you talk to Sita. me try

Jim.
Sita?
coming, right?
Here, let
me
JIM: Let
SITA: Hi,
JIM: SITA: Yes.
to set
that up,
okay?
JIM: How
are you?
SITA= I'm doing fine. JIM: Well, got, I've got the check on Darryl,
How about
you? I've let me
I'm doing fine. Listen, car ready to go, but just
okay?
All right.
SITA: Okay.
JIM: I
don't know if he's going to
be
available, okay?
But let
me tell you
this. I
won't
send anybody that I my word now.

X 92
can't vouch for, okay? good, just

Sita, now.
Igive
you
I'll send
somebody. It's somebody as trustworthy. Okay?
that'll be just as
You can trust me,
SITA: Okay.
JIM: Okay. beforehand whether

whoevers going
K 92
So --
and I will tell
you
it's him or not,
but I will screen
to go.
SITA: Okay.
O
JIM:
Do you
understand?
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: Okay.
Take your time, a few minutes,

and -~
get themready, coat -- it's cold, coats on, you know,

and, and give them some hugs and stuff
SITA
Is it
clothes for
okay, I can bring - they

them?
can
get some
extra
JIM: SITA JIM: SITA JIM: SITA
Absolutely, yes,
Okay.
Yeah.
whatever you want
Their name
Okay.
is Brian
l
and Scott.
And I'll just give

Okay. The
you the phone
92
number.
JIM:
phone number of their
grandparents?
SITA JIM: ' SITA
Just a
Go ahead. Hello?
minute. I'm
sorry.
JIM:
Yeah, go
ahead, Sita.
SITA:
JIM: SITA JIM: SITA JIM:
Scott and Chrissy 5Scott and

-Mabb.
Chrissy.
Spell that
MA-B-B.
for me.
I S it
MAB?
Okay.
92
Q
SITA: And
2641.
I
15
their phone
number is
605923'
JIM: Okay. them ready and, you
All right. know, after you know,
You get, -David
you get
said that
we're just going to,

' SITA: Yes.
go two by two.
JIM: So, then once they go
you get out, you
those know, you
them ready. can take
And
a few-
minute break because we're going to, you know, in

10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
between. But
you want
coats and
then you can start,

out next and, you
you know, who, who

know, get their
to send
stuff. You
know what
I mean? I
SITA: Yeah.
JIM: I
mean, we'll have a little
time, but,
you know, have somebody else kind of maybe help the

kids cause you're busy. You know what I mean. And in the daytime. it'd be easier, see,
I SITA:
Oh, wait, wait.

DAVID: Hey, JIM: Hey, Jim. David.
DAVID: We -when
Patron and Jenessa --
we -- we've to got send
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: - because they're, they're, they're
the, they're the same brother and sister of Camaray and

Landon.
r 92
I16
JIM: Oh,
great. n
absolutely. Okay,
yeah, that's
DAVID: I'm sorry about JIM: That's

DAVID: Listen,
that.
no problem.
Patron's four months old.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: A car seat and --
JIM: How
DAVID: Yeah. JIM: You
about if
I have
a lady
agent?
haven't seen
#-
DAVID: You JIM: Oh,
better bring
some formula. And the
we'll getsome formula.
lady agent,
would that
DAVID: Yeah.
help you?
JIM: Sita
lady agent?
can hand
the four-month-old
to the
DAVID: Yeah. You know, the old bruiser guys

may not know how to deal with a four-month --
JIM: You
of rough.
DAVID: Yeah.
know what I'm saying. They're kind
JIM: Okay, I'll that setup.And how old's

Jenessa?
DAVID: Jenessa,
how old
is she
now?
Talking to
1 92 i 92
someone else.!
JIM: Five, okay.
Five-and-a-half.
1 _ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 B 9 10 11 David.
OC
. 17
,
she's eight. I'm sorry.
DAVID: Oh,
JIM: Make
sure they've got warm stuff,
DAVID: Yeah,
we'll dress
them warm.
JIM: Okay.
And then
maybe you
can have
somebody otherthan Sita,

who the next two
and Chrissy --
after you decide and identify

Ithink we could do or Brian
are --
DAVID: You
JIM: Oh,
already know
sure.
Sonja.
'
1 12 92 92 13
7 9215 16 14
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Yeah,
ready or something.
DAVID: Okay.
she can get Brian
and Chrissy
JIM: We
want them
to have
time to
get their
warm coats and, want to, like you
and kiss
their mom.
But, you
know, we
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
said, just
keep it going
and --
DAVID: Right.
JIM: And, the -had last
and I've jumped their
bones in we
on the commander's office about

night.
DAVID: Uh-huh.
that stuff
JIM: You
DAVID: Yeah.
know, where the car
wasn't ready?
-
JIM: Remember, mean, David's being straight
we had that?
Isaid
look, I
up and you send this car
18 -
with no
radio and
then
we can't
call them,
you know,
and they're late, you

all the cars there,
know. So,
that's what
I've told them you get

David wants, and he'll
send them
out. Okay?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: All
DAVID: Okay. JIM: Patron,
right, Buddy.
four months
old, and
Jenessa?
DAVID: Patron
and Jenessa,
yeah.
JIM: Okay.
What you're doing here
tremendous.
Hey, listen,
this is
great.
This is
benefits everyone.
DAVID: Well,
secret with
v JIM: Yeah .
like I
say, there's a little
these children.
DAVID: There's a ~-
you'll see, you'll see
later. Psalms
you'll see.
8. If
you'll read Psalms 8,
you'll,
JIM: They're, they're beautiful. is great.

brothers and
And this their
Patron and
sister.
DAVID: Yeah.
Jenessa want
to see
JIM: But
I went
over there
this morning
and,
and, and Human Services, where they have the children,

and I went over it with And they, them and those are they're just all real and --
gentle people.
t
real nice
92
19
DAVID: Yeah,
ladies.
we know, we know some Of th0Se
JIM: And want you to assure
they're taking their mothers
care of and stuff.
them. S0, Imean,
they really
are safe
DAVID: Well,
and dry
and happy.
contacted their --
have you
kin?
JIM: Yeah,
we were
having that
done and,
and
Human Services was helping
us. And
Ihaven't gotten
word back on that. kids over
Listen, we're going to like yesterday.
bring the Okay?
here to me, just

DAVID: It'S like --
JIM: And
DAVID: Yeah.
put them
on the
phone?
JIM: Let
I want to get
me -yeah,
let me
do this,
Iwant
David.
out
these cars
started and
to walk
here to these commanders. Idon't want any glitches.

Okay?
DAVID: Which
glitches?
JIM: Well,
didn't hear me.
you know, mistakes where they
DAVID: Oh,
okay.
JIM: Well,
there for -- wait,
let me see if
hold on just a
I can get a car

second.
DAVID: Okay.
' JIM: See if
they'll runa car
up to
the
'
v
x
92
20 water tower and STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE
notify them.
Hello?
Steve.
Hey, how's Steve doing?
Jim, how
you doing? are you? your
I'm great,buddy. How Not bad.
I'm glad to hear
voice.
JIM:
Well, Iwas kind of
worried about
you.
I'm sorry--
STEVE: I,
I-
you know,
Itold
Gary we
appreciated him, definitely wanted

everything, and
/ 92_
and we did and everything, but to speak with you. we kept on trying He started
David it and
and every way get
possible, you
know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We've got to

B CHI.
STEVE:
JIM:
SO --
Yeah. Well,
look, I'm sorry.
Itold
David what happened. And, you know, they told

got to get some
rest.
me I've
STEVE =
JIM:
Right .
Iknew,
Iknew some of those agents,
you know.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:
And, and Iwanted

these
to stop
by the
hospital to
1 92
see some of
other guys.
92
if 21
STEVE: Oh, I'm sure.
JIM: And
all doing good.
you'll be glad to
know that they're
STEVE: Good.
Good, I'm glad.
JIM: I
mean, they're all talking,
you know.
STEVE: Great.
JIM: And all of

pretty good. can tell
here.
the agents feel pretty,

there's no -- I
They're all talking and
you there's no hate in anybody's heart out
"STEVE: Right.
JIM: And
7' 92
they're just saying -them today and I said
STEVE: That's how I felt. JIM: We talked to
listen, you know, those folks out there went through

the same thing and they're suffering, too, you know. And theywere all saying - one thing they're all
thrilled about was thesekids getting out.
STEVE: Right. That's good.
JIM: And so, you know, I just gotta just say

I think it's great. And I'm sorry I was late.
STEVE: That's, that's okay. JIM: But
STEVE: Yeah.
I went by Human Services -I wanted to see how the kids
-JIM:
were doing.
|
-and
92
92
22
STEVE: Right
JIM: And
STEVE: Good.
that's allsquared up,
so -e
JIM:
-you
can tell
the moms that.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: What
happened was, Gary went out on
limb here. He got, he got out with these commanders,

man. He, he made a big
STEVE: He
stink, you
know. '
did, huh?
JIM: He said man, you know, we're trying to work this out, and he says I'm trying to work with
David and Steve and,you know, he saysthese guys

are not, you know,tricking us,
over here and all that stuff.
are,
they're keeping their

I
word and, and said, you know, I wantyou toget Jim

STEVE: Right.
JIM: Again, he went out on a limb for you.

STEVE: I,
JIM: Yeah.
I believe
it.
STEVE: I, Itold
him Ireally
had a, you
know,a great appreciation
for, you know, his-- I told
him don't be offended or, or -it's nothing against

yourself and, you know,David wanted-- he started
talking withyou and he likedthe rapport. And you're

an awesome listener.
JIM: well,
listen, you know, it's hard for
2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9
23
me to be here all the
time, and that's why Gary, you that Ididn't trust 1,000
know, or somebody else -- you know, I didn't want to . give you anybody to talk to
percent.
STEVE: Right.
JIM: And,
pudding when he goes
and Ithink
out and
sure.
the proof's in the
--
STEVE: I'm
10 11 12 13 f 92 15 16 17 18 19 20 > 21 14
JIM: --
battles
those commanders.
You know,
they'll probably bust him two ranks when this is over.

STEVE: David just said to me because of the
way you've been, you know, in Isaiah 55:3 and thy soul shall live. And,
it says hear
Imean, that's the,
that's the main

there.
-- there's one of the main keys right

Well, how,
yes. you get any rest?
JIM: Yeah.
Are you okay?
how are you feeling?
STEVE: Yes, JIM: Did
STEVE: By
the way,
yes --
but, no,
Ididn't.
Ilaid
and --
down for about a half
hour. I couldn't sleep.
I, Itried
to a couple times, but the phone was ringing

JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: One thing that, you
know, he was
disappointed andIwas that all
lines were cut
off and
we weren't able to
-- the
one thing
Iguess
we wanted
-- a lot now You

radio back
of these
want him to reply
and he can t on the
know, there's a number

to him.
JIM: Yeah.
of challenges
STEVE: And
Iwas
wondering
lf what
would
the -Jim,
possibility --
what do you think,
what would
be the
JIM: I'm sorry, wait
They're hollering
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Wait moving Okay. All right
a minute
The car,
the car
STEVE: Not
past
the water
tower now
don't want anything

JIM: Okay,
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Tell me
past the
water tower
I'm sorry
one thing
STEVE: Yeah?
JIM: Is
STEVE: No,
he still bleeding
a lot
he's not No he's not
JIM: Okay. You've-got do you -- look, I know Iasked you this yesterday
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: And you've --got Imean, yesterday was

a bad day for all of us
92
1 2 3 4 S 6 7 8 9 10 know. 11 12 13 14 15 sure 16 17 18 weak 19 20 STEVE: JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM:
25
STEVE: Right.
JIM:
But Ican
arrange to
send you --
in Some
.c1ean gauze
pads and,
STEVE JIM: STEVE
and, and,
you know
of that.
: We'vegot plenty
Are you sure?
: Oh,
yeah, yeah.
But Idefinitely
.appreciate it.
JIM:
We could
just hand
it off
to Sita,
you
We have
a lot.
'
Okay.
Believe me, All right.
we do. Ijust, just want to make
Yeah.
-because
I --
he's, you know, he
sounded
to me
today and
STEVE: Well,
he's not been
he was,
you know,
the
truth is
really
slept the
talking, so
entire day
you what, Iwas
or night
so tired
and he's
talking and
he's realhoarse
and, you
a couple
little
know, just hours ago,

bit. I
-- Itell but it
seems like
I've rebounded a know, lacking
don't k hnow w y, you
sleep, but,
yeah, we're trying to

out of it.
still, you on, Steve.
know, make the best Excuse me. Okay,
JIM: Hold
26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 know -Patron --
yeah. Is
tell him
Sita there?
for me --
Well, tell
David, you
can just
'
STEVE: Okay. JIM: -he's gotthe four-month-old
STEVE: Right.
JIM: -to get

have one.
and I've told him

to help
I was going to
but I
try
a lady
agent to,
with her,
don't
STEVE: Okay. JIM: Okay? So, I told the commander to come
in and get me an agent who was kind of

know.
gentle, you
STEVE:
Okay.
JIM: Okay?
And this
little baby,
you
STEVE: Right. JIM: -has got to be --
STEVE: Little JIM: --
baby -kid gloves.
handled with
STEVE: He was saying that they don't have a

female like they hope, but he wanted -he asked for
the most gentle man there. He's smiling.

JIM: Huh?
25
STEVE: He says tell

JIM: Yeah.
them to send Gary.
Well, that'sright. But,
0
anyway, we'll
STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE
v
2'7
take care Okay. The car
of that.
is at
the water
now?
tower.
It's there
It's there
now.
Okay, the
car is
at the
water tower
right now,
Sita
JIM: STEVE
She's ready.
Okay.
And you have the you just

all ready.
agent and - okay,
-- all Iguess
that already
or -- or
want to
you've got the paper

JIM:
Okay.
' STEVE:Okay. And,

handing the addresses off.
JIM:
plus,
I guess she'll
be
Yeah, that'dbe great.
Sure.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM:
And we'll have them you.
come over
here and
let them
talk to
STEVE: Right.
to call through here, JIM: Itell
Okay, good.
you, Steve --
So, you're able
of course?
STEVE: Yeah?
JIM:
-- it's unbelievable out
here.
Imean,
you've got, you'veevery got reporter in captivity

here.
out
STEVE: I
believe it.
O
Q
JIM: And, you know,
Q
28
there's just people
everywhere and,
you know,
it's even hard -off yesterday.
you know
how many times we got cut

STEVE: Right. _JIM: Remember
when all
that stuff
--
STEVE: Well,
that was
the telephone.
mean, right
up until
now, we tried everything.
We had
a number of cords, you know, like with
those stupid
little connectors
on the thing.
JIM: Yeah.
in between, and somebody would step

"
STEVE: Then we'd have to have somebody go
find out where it was loose. And that happened right

through until -- through the middle of the night even.
finally, we just
JIM: Yeah.
STEVE: Got to be -- and, says well,
look, don't we have one cord that'1l do all
of this? And, finally, we did and this is why we got

something clear now.
JIM: Well, STEVE: It

little bit.
the technology. seems like we're missing there a

said that --
JIM: David I 92
Just a
l
STEVE: David, David's saying something.

minute.
JIM: All
right.
29
1 [gap]
STEVE:
decent telephone
for it
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 that.
Yeah, he says if you could bring a

and 150 feet of cord, that we'll pay
even.
JIM: Oh,
I think
no, I
wouldn't askyou to
more cord than that.
here --
do that.
we'd need a lot

STEVE: Even
this one
JIM: Oh,
STEVE: Yeah,
oh, that's what you

yeah.
want?
JIM: Okay. STEVE: Just you know,
We can probably arrange stop by Radio Shack pay for

I can --
it. or anything, it.
we'd more than be

JIM: Oh. STEVE: Okay. Let me
happy to
see what
JIM: --
check on
for that.
Maybe we can do
STEVE:
This thing
here,
Imean
--
JIM: That's the one
-- what
is it,
is it
like a
Princess phone
or something?
the one we've got here, it
STEVE: Actually, says Bell South Products
and it's, it's beenused a lot
and I think it's been dropped and Ithink

of the problem.
that's part
JIM: That'swhy it
yesterday? STEVE: Yeah.
kept cutting
off
I didn't know if
it was
30
half the
I saw people
phone, and
I knew the connection,

the cord and then
too, because
all of a
stepping on
sudden it'dbe gone
and -it, in the hallway or
JIM: Where've you got something? STEVE: Yeah. Well, right
now I'm in
the
hallway because,
David's here, just off
room. So --
you know,
to
I'm, I'm trying to

the side over here into
-the
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
Hold on
one second.
JIM: that on to the
Iwant
to check
on the talk to
telephone. him about a
Pass
commander, I'll
telephone later.
that through
Okay, I'll just -the commanders.
I've got to run
STEVE: Okay. JIM: Well, about it, okay? STEVE: Okay.

later?
I'm sure --
well, we'll
talk
You want to
call me
back then
JIM: Well,
STEVE: Yes.
yeah.
Is Sita
going
out now?
JIM: Okay. hold on just till
Why don't you -she walks out the here in stop. And
why don't we once she the said
drive -a minute with then David
hooks up with agent, then
the kids, we can --
just Ican
31
1
he wanted you to,

the other.
you know, do this

So, Sita other two
Okay, good.
one-two, you
was going
knvw,
92 ,
2 after
3
said she kids ready.
to get
Sonja to
get the
4 STEVE: 5 JIM: 6
And then on the road -Right. - then,
so after
we bring
- once
we
hook up
7 STEVE: 8 JIM:
9
then you
and
Iwill
break and
then you'll,you'll identify Ithink

or Brian.
it's Chrissyand
and stuff over here and to
10 Scott
And you'llbring coats the other children brought
11 then
we'll have
12 me,
13 STEVE
F K 14 JIM: 15 them.
you know
-Okay.
- so
you can,
of course,
speak to
. 16 17 JIM: 18 STEVE: 19 JIM:
STEVE:
Right.
Or their mom can.
Okay.
And, you
know, and then we'll get back,
20 okay?
21 STEVE:
22 JIM:
Right. Okay.
Things are
to continue that way. Yes. Well,
can.
going real
good and I just
,2:-x lwant it
I24, STEVE:
that's whatwe want,
too,
so I'm sure it '25

JIM:
Steve, how
many cars am Igoing
to need
92 92
32
to line up?
we got left, can
I mean,
you
about the
tell me? many cars
children. How
many have
STEVE: How to line up to get
are you
going to that are
need left
all the
children out
Talking to by little.
someone else.! He's smiling.

JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM:
He says
he'll [gap]
little
Oh, okay.
We'll have
That's fine.
Yeah.
to keep
doing it
that way.
I'm, I'm just, I'm just trying
to avoid
delay.
STEVE
I know,
know --
I understand,
but for
us
it's,it's, you
' JIM:
No, that'sall right.

'STEVE JIM: STEVE Yeah.
That's great. Okay, just
Those, those a minute.
kids -He wants to
talk to
you.
JIM: STEVE JIM: DAVID: JIM: DAVID
Oh, sure.
Here he is.
All right.
Jim. David. ~
Jim, see, I'm on you guys side,
see
what I'm saying?
r 92
33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
JIM: Right,
you are.
~ DAVID:
people here, right?
JIM: Right.
So, it's like this.
There'slot a of
DAVID: And you all

in me, right? JIM: Right.
think that
they believe
DAVID: But, like it says

min him that sent me.
in the Gospel,
he
that believeth in me believeth not in me, but believeth

JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
' DAVID:
In other
words, we cannot receive the
seal by accepting any man's flesh. We have to accept
the word, what's written in the book. So,the thingof

it is is like this. Every, every, you know, the slower
we make this, you understand what I'm saying?
JIM: Umhum.
DAVID: The more time it gives the people
here to make a decision, you know. So, you know, you

just may see a few adults comeout, too.
JIM: Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.
'
DAVID: You see what I'm saying?

JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Cause these people are facing
1 34
realities that, you know, what they're learned in the
Prophecies is one thing, but now they're facing'

reality.
JIM: David,
man and --
you're, you're, you'rewise a -
DAVID: Well,
what I'm saying is
this. I'm
saying that,
you know, you know, if I

more.
listen --
go, then, then I
won't be around no
JIM: Well,
10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
DAVID: And
JIM: Okay.
let me
say something.
DAVID: Cause, you know,I cannot save any person that respects meas a person. There's truth, a
you know, cause we're all equal and blood does not inherit the
JIM: Right.
in the
flesh. Flesh
kingdom of God.
the
DAVID: So,
but what?
you know, once I'm out of
way, the people are going to have nothing to look to

JIM: The seven seals?
DAVID: What they believe,
you see.
So
that's I don't why want no medical attention, you know.
That's I'm why here laying in a big oldpool of blood.

well, it's dried up now. ~
JIM: I
DAVID: Well
wish you'd take some medical care.

--
IO
' 35
JIM: I'd like to be the one to help you get
~
it.
DAVID: I
head.
wish,
Iwish
I'd gotten shot in
the
JIM: Oh,
David, don't say that.
DAVID: Well, see, the

Messiah is.
here's the deal, because,
you
truth of
the word, that's what the real
JIM: Right
DAVID: You
know, Moses is not
the Messiah,
and Elijah's not, you know. Not even the body of
Christ, you know. All men, nomatter what they maybe with the gift of God, they are vanity. And that's why,
92 I
you see, when you see even Christ on the cross, you see that, that
spirit of
God allows men to suffer greatly

all mankind, the spirit of Christ
sometimes, V
is the
and that's why the spirit of

spirit of
Christ, which is the

one man.
truth. It's not just
It's from
Adam all the way to the end, all

there, Jim?
those who believe in
God and God's truth. So, so if I'm anything -- are you

JIM: They're hollering at me. Wait a
minute. Where's the car?

Okay. The
r
l
Talking to someone else.!'

tower. -
car's at the water DAVID: Okay.

JIM: Are the kids --
l l
I 92.
I36
DAVID: The kids are
JIM: The kids are
tower.
I
on their
on the
way, right?
way. It's a white
car at
the water
DAVID: Okay, their way. Okay.
it's.a white car. They're on
JIM: Okay,
on they're going to
they're the commander passed

send a white car each time.
DAVID: Okay,
JIM: Right. I I
it's going to be
a white
car.
DAVID: With JIM; With

DAVID: Okay.
a radio a radio
in it, in it.
right?
[_ I I I
JIM:
Yes.
DAVID: So,
see, see,
what I've always done
is I've never --Inever professed to be anything.

except what the word of God says that Ishow. Now,
see, that way whenI'm longer no around, them people

are going to be on their own. JIM: Right.
DAVID: See? any human hindrances to
That way they are make their decisions
free, without with their
own mind and their own spirit.

that's about as best mean, truth is truth, and if
And that's, that's,

I we, if we don't walk in
as a man can do, isn't it?
the truth
own selves,
,_ I
that we have, then we have to deal with our

don't we?
OO
37 JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay. about this, okay? JIM: Yeah,
So, I'll talk to
you more
okay.
DAVID: Here
JIM: They're
DAVID: Yeah.
comes the
coming out?
babies and
--
JIM: Are
they wrapped
up warm?
DAVID: Yeah, warm. Hey,
they're, they're wrapped up of diapers,
Steve, Patron's got plenty
don't he? They, they've left, haven't they? Have

left? Okay, they left.
they
JIM: Theyleft? Okay.

DAVID: Yeah. Okay, the
I
next, the next two
children that
need for
I send out, I'm going to

also --
send some money that you
with them so you can, you know, get some stuff

them and
JIM: David,
DAVID: Look
you don't need to

--
do it,
buddy.
JIM: Don't -- listen,

these children.
we're taking care of
DAVID: This
is --
I know.
JIM: You
don't have to worry
about
that a
bit. _
DAVID: These
JIM: Listen,
are our
it's --
children, remember.
38
DAVID: We
ain't no cheapskates. see things going this here
JIM: It's great to way. Imean,
I'm telling you, there's people out
saying man, you know, this is, that's really doing this
you know,
this is
some guy in here

sheriff, I
kind of
thing. That'swhat, on the phone and
everybody's saying. And the
talked to
he was
him two or three

you and
times today
-or Thorn or --
asking about
DAVID: Harwell JIM: Yeah, DAVID: Oh,
Thorn. Yeah. Ilike that man.
p 92
JIM: And
he was telling me
that, Jim,
you
know, just
to work
of God and --
talk to
David and let's, you know, get him

you are a true man
with us
some more and that
DAVID: Well
--
JIM: --
you know,
that kind
of stuff.
mean, he's a good,

l
good guy
and -that I'm -- all we know seals.
DAVID: We now is Ijust
just know
f I I
I l
I" 92_
keep rattling
my head about seven A
JIM: Yeah. DAVID: And
only God's good. But,
like
say, you
know, Iunderstand
that, you
know, by
all
means, it's a cultic
situation, it's -- obviously,

you know, and --
there's oneguy in charge,
JIM: Well,
there's people,there's people
QO
39
i.
out here saying that, that David Koresh is a gentle man

and, and it just really -l
DAVID: I don't push myself on anybody,

that's for sure.
JIM: They're just,

know, Ijust don't believe -DAVID: Okay,
JIM: Okay.
Imean, you're just
giving thema sign with these children coming out. You

one moment.
DAVID: Haveyou all left yet?

f I
r 92
Oh. Where,
where'd leave youthem last? Whered you leavethe
keys atlast? Well, you go check with Wayne. Talking

to someoneelse.! We're finding the keys now.
JIM: That's okay.

DAVID: Well, here, let
501's. Itell you. l '
man, I'm so --
_
me -- wait a second.
Tell the guys we're coming. Oh, these stupid Levi

JIM: Oh,
DAVID: They're kind of,
they're kind
of -- well, it's good it's kind of tight cause they

keep circulation.
' Pause!
JIM: David. DAVID: Jim JIM: Yeah. --
Okay. Sita.
Sita. Sita.
DAVID: -- I'm,putting I'm my trust in
you
40
now. I'm sending this money with Sita. Get

cord and, you know, it could or third -'cause we have a lot of trouble
that phone
with our
be, you know, the second
lines. And
-- especially,
milk for
if those
kids need anything, you know, just

can get some goat's
you know, if you

you know --
the baby,
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: ~
JIM: Okay
and a little bit

.
of honey.
DAVID: See,
we feed our kids
very good
food,
you know, and that formula's too got much carbohydrate in it

-
and it's got too much sugar, glucose. It's not

for the temperaments of young babies.
JIM: Iunderstand.
really good
DAVID: Whose
the name of the
man we get our
goat milk
from? Huh?
Can we send some goat milk send some frozen goat milk.
then?
Okay, we're going to

JIM: Okay.
I I I
DAVID: Okay. someone else.! now, okay?
And okay.
Well, we'll send
them someand they can thaw it out.
Talking to
And, see, goat milk's coagulates more send it to you.
like human milk. Anyway, no, no health lecture right

But we're going to
JIM: Okay.
I I
DAVID: They
second.
-we'll be down
there in
41
JIM: Okay.
mean, Iknow
No problem, take your
time.
you're doing it.
DAVID: Go ahead and -- okay.

JIM: Are they, are they coming?
the goat milk and --
_
~
DAVID: Yeah. Looking for the key or getting

JIM: Yeah, okay, take your time. We're,
we're ready. That's problem. no Hey, you know, a lot of things to get ready, you know. You know, youand I
have lost a lot JIM: in the last day, you know. Isaid we've lost a lot
people we knew. A bad thing happened
'
DAVID: Huh?
yesterday, you
know, some friends and DAVID: Yeah.

yesterday.
it and
JIM: But the great thing is we're resolving we're trying to work it out, you know,and -~
DAVID: Wish we could have done it you
know, Idid
that Robert.
everything, Idid
JIM: Iknow.
everything Icould with
DAVID: But, you know, if you ever get a
chance to talk to Robert, ask him, say, Robert, what

did the guy show you out JIM: Yeah, of the book? see that okay. It's nice to
things are going good and we're just going to try to
'
OO
42 / 92
make it work, you know. I,
I know Steve feels
good and
he worked real hard to try to resolve it, you know, and

get some of these
DAVID: Yeah.
kids out.
JIM: Sita's just really

tell you.
DAVID: She's --
great,
I've got to
JIM: She's great.
DAVID: Yeah,
Ihave
a lot
of people
come
here and, like Isay, you know,the, the, the truth,
you know, if you could have ever metthese people,you

know, they're the best JIM: Yeah.
P 92
people in
all the
world. bother
That thing's starting to
you, isn't
it? DAVID: What's that?
JIM: Your
sore?
wound.
It's starting
-- is
it
DAVID: Idon't know, it's always sore,

legs every once in a while and move them.
yeah.
You know,it'sIhave -to have someone pick up my

JIM: David,
at your lower abdomen
you told
there?
me yesterday it went
in
DAVID: Yeah, right around close to the belly

button and went out and hit
bone that
,
-- it
looked like
the
pelvic -- feels like it cracked my -- you know, that

--
k I
OO
C
your hips?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: 43
JIM: Yeah,
DAVID:
that pelvic
bone?
two bones on like
Yeah, you
know, the
Then it
came out
my back.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: My
JIM: Oh,
rear, you
man. Where
know.
else did
you get
the other
hit?
- DAVID:
Then I
got hit
over on
side. Then
wrist. Took
there's --a Igot

a chunk out of
hit right
here
in my,
--
my
my wrist
and it's just

turns blacker
I'm lookingat it
right now.
That blood
than black.
JIM: Did
your wrist?
you get
that to
stop bleeding on
DAVID: Oh, yeah. Yeah,
it stopped
bleeding.
And the wounds in the

just -I I
I
back just -- Idon't know, they

know --
they ooze and then they stop and they ooze

just, you
again. It's
JIM: Yeah.
position? If there is
Mmmm. Are you in

one, huh?
a comfortable
DAVID: Something
explain.
JIM: Yeah.
I I
like that.
It's hard to
DAVID: You
know, Ikind
of cried
when I
,_ 92
I I
looked outthe window and saw all those ATF agents up
44
on the
roof.
~ JIM:
I appreciate you saying that.

DAVID: Well -.
JIM: I'll pass that on to the guys. I mean

it.
DAVID: It JIM: I
to them.
shouldn't have happened, Jim. Iknow. I'll pass that on
know it.
DAVID: What can I say, you know?
JIM: Hey, Itold
Steve that, you know, I
went bythe hospital and that's kind of what heldme

up, you know, some of that stuff, and I saw a lot of
those guys.And, you know, they're all doing good and C
they're good in spirits and, you know, they're doing

fine and there's animosity no in their hearts or
anything. And I told them --
DAVID: Jim, they, they don't me. know Any
time, any time -- cause they know Ididn't do it, but,

in a way, you know, it's my responsibility,
understand. But the thing of it
you
is is that in the
minds of men there's just two sides, their sides. And those guys sit together and they drink coffee together
and they practice together, they putbuddies together,

they may drink a beer together. You know,.there's a
bond there.And they came down here doing their job

, 92
and they didn'ta have clear picture, you know, and,
Q O
45
and theycame out to do their job and, andthey didn't,

you know, they didn't know how to listen to me.-
You know, I was trying to know, to get back away, you know.
JIM: Yeah.
tell them
to, you
DAVID: There's children and
women and
children. But, intuition. The

they?
JIM: Yeah.
you know,Jim, see, I've an got prophets of old had visions, didn't
'
DAVID: So,
you know, you know,
the
boy --
your guys didn't have a chance.
JIM: David, that sounds like it's really

hurting you.
Itold
told Robert
DAVID: We -- he knew thatyou were coming. Robert, Isaid look, Isaid they're coming. I
that.
JIM: Yeah.-
DAVID: They were nowhere in sight as of yet.
And Robert sat right there lookingat me,and I tried to look him straight in the eye. You know, I thought
at least what hewould dois tell
hey, let's, let's slow up a bit.
JIM: Yeah. ~
the guys, you know,

-
DAVID: But, no, he went overand hehad to

go back and park his Blazer over there off of the
| 92 I
46 t 92
corner and all. You

this way.
JIM: Yeah.
know, it didn't have to happen

H
DAVID: You you've got arms is

the bad guys look
know, you know, the
reason why to tell
a show of arms,
--
you know,
JIM: Hold
it. Wait
a minute. All
right,
just a minute. Hey,

me did Sita leave yet.
I'm sorry, David. They're asking

yet? Hey. Hey.
DAVID: Has Sita left
Hello.
Well, get
Ican't holler, you know. Has Sita left yet?

another car then. Unidentified
indiscernible.!
they just walk out? JIM: Can
female voice
in background
f 92
DAVID: They, they -- to, to

down to the --
walk all
the way
u
JIM:
Well, Imean, if she little

I--
has a problem
getting a car or something, tell me

maybe we can move up a
DAVID: Well,
and, you know,

that's --
further, if
JIM:
could.
But I'd rather do
it
like this,
if we
DAVID: Yeah. That

92
way for sure, you there?
know --
let's see,
truck out
is the
there?
white truck out
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Is

I
the white
47 DAVID car. JIM: I
Just any,
just any
car. Just
any
guarantee they're want

to drive them.
safe conduct
to
wherever you
DAVID
Who took
the keys?
Yeah. Okay,
take
Misty's car. Okay, Jim.

JIM: Yeah?
DAVID: This
it's kind
is
bit.
a different
car. It's brown,
of shot
JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID: JIM: DAVID JIM:
up a
A,
a little brown
Yeah.
car?
What kind
What kind
is it,
is it?
a Chevy
A Ford
or what?
Escort.
Ford Escort,
S0 --
okay.
Ford Escort,
Yeah.
brown, small?
Okay.
Yeah, it's real small.
All right,
we'll tell them what
to look
for.
DAVID:
And they've got the got the keys to it, right?
keys to
that, Where's
right? They've
Chanel? Where's Chanel?

Okay. Please start them.
Is she
taking care
of her?
Start them.
Start them.
That's one thing, you
know, about kids. You
know,
C
48
they're so eager to
think and
--
JIM: So
innocent, aren't they?
DAVID: Yeah.
and Ilove babies, Jim.
They're just smiling
JIM: Yeah.
of God to say that. You
Well,
Iknow
you'retrue a man
kids.
love those
DAVID: Well, that's one thing they always

try to get me on is child abuse,
could that
but
be?
Idon't--
JIM: How
DAVID: See,
what happens
is is
that --
JIM: How
r 92
could that
be? A
man that
would do
this for
works, if
children? How could that be possible?

DAVID: Well, he can't get, if like Robin Jim, you see, the way the devil he can't get around the
truth, he's got to resort to

instance, like,
Robin bonds?
lies. You
see? Now, for
Bonds. You've heard of
JIM: Robin
Bonds. I'm not sure
Ihave.
DAVID: She's one of
the girls
that left
message, okay? Now, she, she has a little

named Wisdom, you see?
JIM: Right.
boy of mine
I I I
DAVID: Let
started.
me, let
me tell
you how this all
JIM: All
right.
DAVID: Okay? Icame here in 1981, okay?
__/ *
0
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: To this place.
.
49
And there
was a
I:-I.
woman
here named
Lois Roden.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: And
what happened
was is
I came
here
and the people treated

she was,
me good and, and Lois, you

and her mission was
know,
she
she was a prophetess
was trying
to teach
the world
that the
image of God is
male and female, you know, which is not a popular

doctrine amongst your Evangelicals.
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: And
so what
happens is
is that
she
came and I started man know all these

prophecies and
teaching people things? So,
things and people young
began to say, you know, like
wow, how does this
I began to open up some

And so in the
intrigued Lois.
prophecies it
I I
talks about
a sign,
it talks
about --
End of
Tape #6!
/-~ _ "
*3.
__ ,92 _ .
7 f? "T; f;_ .4 ' K "" T1
/1..r*92
_9292YYx M
'Fl '7 "f"l-192ii' "L, T e.
co
-:" *
_~ rs L. ~
_ f
FD~245a.1 Rev.1-9-91! _' ; Ah oi
I"'13?
iii
9292 ix
Fri urau
A A" '
_ L
~i U
" ~i
_ 3:1 r ~_ "jl
L Fill
US. Deloarlmenl oi? usli e '
..m 7+1
Z
oii ln9292//sliigitiolnl
Bureau File Number
'5 Z
0
I!
Fliellol Qiiice
lnliormanli and
Asseli Files
U! D 2.
91. cn
.___i__ Armed ___i_ DO

as
and Dangerous NOT DESTROY
;___ FOIPA __+_i_ NClC
ELSUR __l___
Escape Risk
OCIS
._+i_ Suicidal
Financial Privacy Act __+__i

'
l l
Other ____i___
See also Nos. -
'E EEST QQAEES QTAABLE
ENCLUE EN
Q? TE
TE ?UCHN
ENQLEIE
$HJE RAGES
"EA? A
A "$3 AN A 6 L
EMJD, EEG?
"E A MJEIE Q5 0? E3 "EEE A
QTEESE EFEFECULT
TE CUNETEUN QGENALS TE REST
QYEES
AVAELALEQ
92 w
s?
*0 % M
ca /Uejoiini io/
72/1/1 SL RE Pi: Pu. ezved -mm? DPKt'met 0.?

To sf; <~.E'_
QR' Ste!/J. Public
Pl 5i R5 Dinec:I
-I
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
TAPE #7
3/1/93
92 2
DAVID: -JIM: Right.
was too
old, right?
DAVID: Okay,
JIM: Yeah.
God had promised, hadn't he?
DAVID:
Well, who
do you
think was
the one
~-
JIM: Hey, to interrupt you. Has

DAVID: Sita
David, wait one Sita already

left? Sita
second. I'm sorry left?

left? Go check and
see, make sure Sita's left. We've got to underway. Well,

JIM: Okay.
get this
anyway, we're checking on that now.

Lois got pregnant and guess
DAVID: Anyway,
who got the blame,
JIM: Who?
Jim?
DAVID: Me. beings think, okay?

JIM: Um-hum.
Now, this
shows you
how human
DAVID: First studies about
of all,
here I was 22, 23 years
old, and here I am giving Lois and all these divinity. And
people
the power of God and the mystery of
Lois gets pregnant.. Okay, now, what

of people rose up. There was
happened was that a lot
originally branches.
JIM: Um-hum.
It was really Davidians,
right?
DAVID: And they accused me of going to bed
with her and they accused her of going to bed with me.
Q YA
Q
3
And this woman was very homely and 70years old. You
know what I mean?
JIM: Yeah.
Yeah, I
do.
DAVID: And so what happened was is that
said now!listen, there's a truth you've to got deal with here. I says your accusations against me,let's
evaluate this. I says what if I did go to bed with
her? And she has conceived a child, and she doesn't even have any seed.I says you better watchout your
accusations. Out of oneside of your mouth you say
you
believe in God, thatGod created a child in the womb<of
Sarah. On the otherside of yourmouth you're saying

that if you'reyour Loisa prophet Indiscernible! it
7 92
has tobe from me that somebody's doing been naughty

stuff. Okay?
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: They're crazy, aren't they?

JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Youknow,a miracle would take place
if a 70~year-old woman could have a baby,wouldn't it?

JIM: Right. I, I guess so, yeah.
DAVID: See? Well, no one should have blamed
me._ On the contrary, they should have prayed to God.
Okay. Sowhat happened was all hell broke loose, and

hat's when George Roden got into the scene.
JIM: Right.
O
DAVID: And a .357 Reuger,
O
4
he came in and
he's waving around And he was
a Nighthawk
or a Magnum.
telling people
was going to, A JIM:
he was going to blow

you know, all this
my balls
kind of stuff.
off
and he
Hey, David?
DAVID: Yeah.
A E 1 1 2
JIM: They way. So, go ahead

DAVID: Okie
got the and get

doke.
kids
and they're two.
on the
your next
JIM: And Chrissy?
I think
you said
it was
Scott and
5 ;
DAVID: Okay.
now? Scott and Chrissy? JIM: Sure. What
So, that's Scott and Chrissy

Jim, could do you you do us a favor? need?
DAVID: Could where we could

JIM: I,
you get radio station
our line
open again again?
to
call the
Ican
see, David.
DAVID: They
shut
us off.
JIM: Yeah. up with you. I, I can
I'll tell you, I'llbe straight see, but Idon't hold that much
if
hope because there's so much, you know, the commanders

have to work on it. I'll tell you, there's a billion
5 ; 1.
reporters out here. phone line tied up
I mean, Ithink plus, a lot of
they've got every times, you know -just, they

i 5
1.
DAVID: What's happened is they
just disconnected
our line to where we canonly call
% 3.
5 you.
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: So, JIM: Well,
Okay.
you know -can do. I'll
I'll see what I
give youwan honest word.
I'll see what Ican
do, but
DAVID: Are
message?
they still
going to
play that
JIM: What
message on the radio
DAVID:
message? Oh,
station?
yeah, play
the
Yeah.
JIM: Yeah.
taken care of.
Okay, let
me, let
me get that
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Is
Phil out
there Indiscernible!?
If
Ineed him, I'll send him in. Yeah,

someone else.! The problem with the
okay. Talking
telephone, David,
to
is like
you and me.
this is
really a normal procedure, you know, to

going, you know, between have been
I
.
keep a -- keep the lifeline
DAVID: Yeah, but our other lines

cut off.
JIM: Oh,
okay. Yeah,
Iunderstand.
understand. Yeah.
David. DAVID: Yeah?
Yeah. Well,
let me
see if
--
6 1 92 at?
JIM: Hold
on just
a second.
DAVID: Where's my -where's little Koresh
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: You've got all
four kids.in that house?

JIM: No, I've got two kids. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: -transition.
Unidentified voices
JIM: Hey,
DAVID: Huh?
in background not discernible.!

David.
JIM: I
DAVID: Go
need you to
ahead.
help me
out on
this.
JIM: Okay.
92
The commanders got, got
the two
kids and they want to change this room I'm in. You
know, I've got to move because I'm in this

room and Idon't have any room, and I'm at out the people in here.
where the
little bitty
I've got all these airport. You know
And so what they wanted me to do is
move across the way.

airport is? DAVID: Right,
yeah.
JIM: And
they want
me to move across to this
other building
it'll be quiet.
where there's more room,you know, and

.
DAVID: What's your number?
JIM: They'll do --
I'll call
you with
it and
tell you,
p 92
you know, no problem. But what I'd like to
1 1
do before we take a break is just

those other
car and
to, you know, get

you know, send another
a
two kids
ready and,
And then
get that.
maybe we could take
little break,
and then once I get to

you. Are they
the new place,
I'll get back with
DAVID: Okay.
going to
-- well,
like you say, then when the next car comes, can they,
can they bring us in new lines so
as much?
we don't get cut
off
JIM: Yeah, on that.

can do
I'm working on that. work on it. I'll
I'm working see what I
Yeah, I
for you.
want to
DAVID: Okay.
Now, now, now, now, remember,
I gave $1,000 to those guys, and I want you to get

$1,000.
what
JIM: Oh, DAVID: Jim,
hey, don't worry about you've got to --
it. I'm serious.
JIM: Hey, let megive - you gota pencil?

I'm going to give you this new phone number.
DAVID: Okay.
a number for you?
Hey, Rach, Rachel, could
you
take a, take a note pad and a piece of paper? I've got

Where's the pencil?
JIM: Unidentified
not discernible.! Really? -
male voice in background

you see
DAVID: Where's the pad with -do

, it?
JIM: Can
92
we work
that, we
can help?
Talking to
someone else.!
DAVID: Did
you get
the --
okay, here
you
are, take
-- put
it on
that there
-- put
it on is it now,
that Jim?
pad. Talking
to someone else.! What

799 --
JIM: It's
DAVID: Seven
JIM: -0545.
nine nine
--
DAVID: --
oh five
four five.
JIM: Okay?
DAVID: Seven JIM: Oh DAVID: -r s
nine nine five.
--
five four oh five
four five.
JIM: Now,
so -until we know
I'll call you first,

it's clear.
okay? And
DAVID: Okay.
All right. send the other car to
JIM: We'regoing to
the water tower.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay,
Chrissy?
DAVID: Yeah.
so, can
you get
Scott and
JIM: Cause
what I
don't want to happen middle of
is --
they're switchingmy room and we're in the
and the kids, you know, cause I've got to kind of, you
know, get
,92
off for
a few
minutes.
9 q @
DAVID: Okay,
JIM: So tell --
will do.
DAVID: Call
there.
me up
as soon
as the
car gets
JIM: these other
Yeah, but two kids in the
let's hang on until car, and
we get
then we'll, then

You've got -~
we'll getoff, okay? Who have you got
Cause -
yeah.
there, Sonja? They're not back

back?
DAVID: Probably.
JIM: Oh,
DAVID: No.
yet.
Sita's not
JIM: Okay.
me call
I 92
All right,
let, let,
let me,
let
you in
a minute.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Ineed to, Ineed to
work this out with
the commanders
'cause I, I want to,
you know,
Iwant
and me
Indiscernible! kids
ought to talk, you
in the
know.
driveway and you
DAVID: Kids JIM: Imean
in the
driveway? to happen.
Idon't want that
You know what I'm saying?

down the driveway and
DAVID: Oh,
JIM: You
Idon't.want Sita walking

phone.
we're not on the

okay.
know what I mean
DAVID: Okay. '

JIM: And we have the two children. They're
10
on their
~
way here
safely, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: And
for a few minutes ~
I'll just -we'll just break
of
w DAVID: JIM: -
Okay. then I'll get back

Bye, Jim.
with you.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay,
Buddy, I'll see you.

1' i* 1'
JIM: Do
we have transportation over
there?
Do we have transportation
them over two kids out first,
to -no,
we're going to get
aren't we?
DAVID: Good
Hello?
afternoon. May
I help
you?
1' i i
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello?

JIM: Hello, Yvette? SPEAKER: Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
JIM: This is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, wait one

moment. Do you want JIM: Yeah, to speak please. to David?

DAVID: Okay.
JIM: How
DAVID: It's
'
you doing,
a miracle.
Buddy?
OO
11
JIM: Have DAVID: Are
you got the kids
those other
kids ready? and
ready? Chrissy
who's next?Chrissy and JIM: Chrissy

DAVID: Got
new number?
Scott. l and Scott, yeah.

calling from the
to -
were you
JIM: No,
not yet.
I'm going to get
-- move
over there
first.
in a few
minutes.
Iwanted
to get
this done
DAVID: Are playing the voice in
they sending
-~ oh.
Are they
message on the radio? background not discernible.!
Unidentified male
JIM: He'stalking to him if they played the message
one of on the
his buds, radio.
asked
Unidentified male voice in background not

discernible.! Yeah,
they're going to do
yeah. Could
the movement,
you tell
so Ican
me what time
tell him --
Unidentified male
discernible.! .0kay.
voice in
background not
DAVID: Who?
on.
What? My
grandmother? Turn.it
JIM: He
thinks his
grandmother is
on the
radio or
the TV
or something.
VOICE: Yeah. ~
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
DAVID: Did JIM: No,
you hear
that, Jim?
I didn't, David.
Q y I
12
DAVID: My grandmother is on an interview.

JIM: Where?
DAVID: I'm trying to
get the details. I
was
always told by my family that,

strangeg
that I'm kind of

live?
JIM: Where's your grandmother DAVID: She

JIM: Yeah.
lives down
in Chandler.
DAVID: Chandler's close to JIM: Yeah,

pretty country over there.
Tyler. is. That's
yeah, Iknow where it
DAVID: Oh, yeah. I

used to fish on Lake Tyler --
love that country. I
JIM: Oh, did you? Yeah. They've got a little train runs down that way.
DAVID: How do you spell your
again, Jim?
last name
JIM: C-A-V
-- C-AV
--
DAVID: All
JIM: -A-V
right, just
--
a second.
C --
DAVID: Wait a minute.

me. Looks like a brand-new one,
JIM: Hmmmm.
The pen just died on

too.
DAVID: Canyou all give meanother pen, please? Sherry, try to get this to write. I need -I 92
Sherry? Sherry's not behind me, is she? Oh,okay
she's -- yeah, yeah.
C-A-V? C-A-V?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I'll connect it

off. JIM: David?
- DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Did
DAVID:
you get
Yeah. C-A
your pencil?
--
JIM: CAV-AN-A-U-G-H.
DAVID: A-N --
JIM: A-U
DAVID:
- C-A-V-A-NA-U-G-H.
-- AU-G-H. Okie doke.
JIM: Is
DAVID:
she getting
Yeah. Are
the kids
tho se other
ready?
kids there
yet?
Pause!
JIM: David?
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Are
DAVID:
you okay,
Buddy?
Yeah, I'm all right. just heard

I
y
Are the kids
JIM: I
-DAVID:
you groan a
kids. the what? kids.
little bit.
don't hear the You don't hear don't hear the
JIM: I
DAVID:
Oh, well,
you all kids
want to
make
some noise?
p 92
JIM: Laughing!
That's usually not a
14
problem, kids
making noise.
there's babies all in here,
DAVID: Oh,
hollering. I _ JIM:
keep looking
at them
the last, again.
last time
Yeah. You'll see them Oh, I know. I
A DAVID:
promise. Sita or Sonja or
JIM: Who's helping them,

what?
DAVID: Is
JIM: Is
Sita
Sita there?
-yeah,
they're back.
DAVID: Where's
Sita?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE DAVID: She JIM: Yeah,

92 92.
SPEAKER: -here. talk to her a minute.
can come let me
DAVID:
Sita: Jim?
All right.
JIM: Hi,
Sita: Yes?
Sita.
JIM:
That went
smooth, okay?
Sita: Oh,
thing to give to
yes, fine.
I just
forgot one
the guys.
JIM: Okay.
Sita: But
I'll give them the
next round. are,
JIM: That's great, that's great. Now,
are these waiting, so
next two Iwanted Sita: Okay.
ready cause to kind
I've got the car them out.
there
of get
Is there
ladies watching
the
UI
5
Q 5
baby?
JIM: Yes.
two ladies here.
Sita: So
JIM: Yeah. two. Is it -is this
Oh, yes, absolutely. I've got.

you Indiscernible! I, Igave
on these
you
next
the milkaand the carob.
Iforgot
Scott and
to get the honey.

Chrissy Mabb?
Give me the info
Sita: Yes, Scott and Chrissy Mabb.

JIM: And Sita: How how old old are are they? you? Eleven --
JIM: Okay.
Sita: -JIM: Okay.
. 92
'
and seven.
Sita: Scott JIM: Okay .
is 11.
Sita: And
Chrissy is
seven.
JIM: Okay.
All right,
good. Why, let them
why don't kiss and the
you go ahead and get their hug there

car is at
coats and
and say goodbye and take them

the water tower?
out because
Sita: Okay. JIM: Okay?

Sita: Yeah?
And listen.
JIM: And have to

p
then -~
I told
David I'm going to but I'll
get off
the phone for a
few minutes,
be back and, you know, I'll let you
talk to
them and
16 all.
Sita:
Okay. You
want to
talk to
David
before you
go out?
JIM:
Yeah, let
me have
David. You
walk them
out right
now, okay?
Sita:
JIM:
Okay. Cause the car's waiting and I need to
get the
word.
Sita: JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID
Okay.
Okay, Sita.
Hello.
Thanks.
Hey, Buddy, Oh, so

up now?
she, she
does a good
job. our
they're going to open
telephone lines
JIM: DAVID
No, I
haven't got the word
on that.
Oh, this
is what
they were
saying on
the radio,
that
JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID JIM: DAVID:
Oh, really?
Yeah.
histen, this Scott, he's 11 years dld?

Yeah.
Yeah. He
must be
a big
boy. small. He's thin.

" of him. Tell him
He's, he's kind of

it, okay?
Hey, guy,
worry about don't

JIM:
Yeah, we'll take care
17
DAVID: Hey,
too. You be sure
you can
tell them
take your
that one
motorcycle,
of the
and
motorcycles here
JIM: We
-DAVID:
is yours,
move before
I'll be
okay? All
we --
right.
okay.
tell him
sure and
that --
when this
is all
over that
the motorcycle's you. Bye.
yours, all
right?
Okay. All
right. Love
Come here and give Itaught

now, right?
it.
DAVID: JIM: DAVID:
me a kiss. Love
you. Remember be a
all
you, okay?
--
And you're going to
good girl
yeah, I'mgoing to,
I'm goingto lick
Okay. All
Yeah.
right. Now,
Jim --
-- make
sure these
guys are
bringing
the kids
to you.
JIM: DAVID: Yeah.
So you make sure that I'm giving to

Iwant you to tell me
you --
when you, know, and
when you
you open in it,
get this
this up,
you, you
exactly what's
all right?
JIM: You've
DAVID:
got it,
I will.
Okay. All
right. Have
the kids
gotten there
yet? JIM: No,

DAVID:
uh-uh. They
sure haven't.
They haven't gotten there
yet. She's
getting them
ready.
_ 1a
0Q
JIM: Hey, David, I really want to thank you.

I appreciate this. ~
DAVID: Oh,
JIM: You
well, I
know --
appreciate it.
a DAVID: know, that
I've always had faith always be
in mankind, so beastly.
you
you don't have to

JIM: Well DAVID: You -know?
JIM: DAVID: I turn back here, but, when I
-you're, figured, I told you --
you're a wise man. figured you all would children
there was
women and
you know
JIM: Are
0 Dr coats on?
they coming?
Are they
-got
their
DAVID: Yeah, JIM: Getting

again. Is she there?
DAVID: Yeah, JIM: Okay,
Sita: Hello? JIM: Sita?
Sita: Yes.
they're getting all ready. all ready? Here, give me Sita
she's here. let me talk to her.
JIM: Okay,
Sita: Yes.
are they
ready?
JIM: Okay,
you going
out now?
Sita: Are
r"
they playing
the --
19 JIM:
We already
We didn't
played it.
hear it.
Sita:
JIM:
Oh. Well,
Imean,
Thanks a
we played
Iwill.
lot.
it before.
I'll
play it
again.
Sita:
JIM:
Okay. Just
take them
out to
the car,
okay?
Sita:
JIM:
Okay. Okay.
Pause!
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED
PERSON:' Losing them. you got
What's happened? They're not there. Have them? Dead.

' JIM:
Okay. Okay.
David? David?
TO UNIDENTIFIED
**i*
V
PERSON: I've lost him.
JIM
STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE
Hello.
Hey, Steve?
Yes.
This is Hi, Jim.
Jim.
Hey, that
Okay.
-- off
phone just
went --
on me.
'
TO UNIDENTIFIED they been
PERSON: Where the other
are they group has
at now?
f 92
So, have
-- the,
20
been picked
up, right,
JIM TO
the two?
Have they picked
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
them up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
yes. A
SPEAKER: The
first two,
JIM: Yeah,
the first
two we
got.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: But
Sita was
coming out
right now
with
STEVE: Yeah.
hear that announcement
I guess
on the
they're waiting
to
radio.
JIM: Oh.
we'l1 play it again.
I 92
We played
it, though,
a while --
STEVE: Okay. JIM: I Just I've got the mean I'll play it car sitting twice for -you.
there and
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: --
Iwanted
to get
them, you
know.
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:
He says hevd
like to
get them.
JIM: Steve? STEVE: Yeah.
He's going to play
it twice
for us.
JIM: Did
Sita take
them out?
STEVE: Notyet.
JIM: Oh, okay. i
She's standing
right here.
STEVE: She's right here.
They're ready to
21 go.
JIM: Ready
to go.
The car
is waiting.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: So just have her go. Just go on out.
* STEVE: There are four to six guys

camouflaged right joke.
JIM: Four
STEVE: Yes.
now down at the H

to six guys at
barn. Honestly,
no
the barn?
JIM: I
the back barn?
don't know where that
is. Is
that
STEVE: Yes,
cement block
yes. It's kind of
a block,
building.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: They're on the JIM: Oh, on the
property.
property. Okay. property. let me check on this,
STEVE: They're on the JIM: Okay. okay? STEVE: All

JIM: Hold
Let me,
right. Okay.
on one second.
STEVE: All
right.
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Steve said

on that.
Hey, Steve, barn. Check
that there's four guys
at the
JIM: Okay,
f
we're checking.
I 1
22
STEVE: All
JIM: The
right.
barn --
STEVE: Just
hold on
one minute.
JIM: Okay.
Hey, Steve.
*STEVE: there's twoor three JIM: Oh,

about?
On the
other side
of the
fence then,
guys crouched. which fence now are we talking
STEVE: Right JIM: Well,

but --
in the
back. on it,
I'll check
STEVE: Okay.
sure, you know, I mean --
But right
on the
property,
JIM: I'll
guaranteed safe
check on
it, but,
look, Sita
has
conduct.
STEVE: Right,
I realize
that. But,
you
know, they,
they always
get nervous
when, you know -doing that. We
don't understand why those guys are

want to keep right JIM: Right. out. The car is on moving with this.
Well, go
ahead and
send Sita I'll, I'll
waiting. In
the meantime,
follow up
the back,
on that.
you know, STEVE :Okay
But, you
know, if
it's way out in
I'll check on it. .
JIM: And,
go ahead and send
you know, we'll get it fixed.

Oh, hey, Steve. Steve,
But
her out.
23 Steve.
Are they
coming?
STEVE: Yeah,
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
they're coming.
I just found out --
- JIM:
there.
-- you're right. There
were people
They were police. I

em the word to
just found
out, we
just
gave th
move back.
STEVE: Okay,
thank you. happened.

that.
JIM: I'msorry that

STEVE: Okay, I believe
JIM: They
there.
were, were
not supposed
to be
STEVE: Thank JIM: It of peop was a,
you much. you know, -- there was a lot
le involved
stave: Right. JIM: But
and, you
know, communications
--
we got
the word
for them
to move
back an
d-
- yeah,
we're having a shift
change.
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: We're having a

STEVE: I see.
shift change.
JIM: And,
people
and --
you know,
we've got a lot
of
here and everybody's moving around, you
know,
STEVE: Right.
JIM: --
I told
David we're -- they're
24
kicking us
go across
out of
this building
here to
no. Really? no problem.
we're in.We've got to

another place.
the alleyway
STEVE: Oh, JIM: It's
It's just more room,
you know?
STEVE = Right .
JIM: And
then we're having a all around.

but -.
shift change You know what I
and there's people moving

mean. So,
I'm sorry it happened, STEVE: Right . '
JIM: -we moved them back. Did Sita, did

Sita leave?
STEVE: Just
a minute,
let me
see cause
she
went down ..
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yes,
4 "
she did leave.
JIM: She
did leave? she left
Okay. from up -- she left
STEVE: Yeah,
from where I'm here. at

JIM: Okay. All right. Here's what we're
going to
do. We're going to STEVE: He says, he
-doesn't --he says,

of here. Here's what we're
don't want to
rush these JIM: Oh, no, no.
kids out No, no.
going to
hook-up.
do. I'm going to
wait till
they make the
92
25
s'rEvE = Okay.
JIM: Okay?
,:
And then I'm going to have to --
I'm going to tell
you we got them
safe, and
then I'm
going to have to get off

office. Okay? STEVE: Okay.
Indiscernible! return? JIM: You
cause they're switching my

How long will that be then
know, half
hour, 45
minutes.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And,
and --
and just take a break
and, you
talk
know, maybe you and David can get some time and
STEVE: Yeah,
he said,
you know,
he was
giving up, he said, the most precious thing in life,

JIM: Iknow.
STEVE: Yeah,
these women.
They are,
the
women are giving up, you know, their most, came from their body.
JIM: Iunderstand and --
you know, it
STEVE: I know you

too?
do. Are
you a father,
JIM: Yes,
Ihave
two children.
STEVE: Oh, that's good.Yeah, you would
understand. It's hard for him to let

JIM: Well,
he --
them go.
them up. I mean,
he's not giving
26
STEVE: Well, just even for a, you
you know know --
what I
mean, though,
JIM: A
little while,
yeah. I know, but you know how
STEVE: Exactly.
mothers are.
JIM: You,
guys visit
and talk
and --
STEVE: Exactly,
right.
JIM: --
while we
take
a break,
you know. go on and I want
I'm hoping maybe David's ministry will

you guys thing. STEVE :
JIM: You STEVE: Right JIM: --
to talk
about that
and us
resolving this
Right .
know, we . and he, and he needs -Steve, I'm can do it --
going to
he needs
about him.
tell you
something --
where you can help

really worried
me --
some medical
attention. I'm
STEVE: Oh, he keeps on saying
I've been telling him
that, but
he's fine.
JIM: Yeah. Well, you, you talk to him for

me and -- -
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: -an infection
and just
we're concerned. I mean,

you know.
or something, STEVE: Right .
27 / 92
JIM: We're just concerned about him.

mean, you know --
I
even
STEVE: Yeah, an hour ago.
I know.
I was
after him
- JIM: Yeah, we, we, we, we've enough got

tragedy. We don't want any more.
STEVE: Right .
JIM: And,
talk with him.
you know,
you think
about it
and
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: We'll STEVE: All

then? ' r
try to
get him
-call me back
right. You
want to
JIM: I
had the children.
just wanted
to give
you the
word we
STEVE: Okay, JIM: Just

STEVE: All
so I'llhang on. for just a second.
hang on
right.
JIM: I'm
going to
check and see if
they've
got them.
STEVE: Right.
_
Okay.
JIM: Hold
on one second --
all right,
they're still coming I guess. I

down or something. Since
guess they're walking

male voice
--
-- Unidentified
STEVE: Jim,
I'm just going to
I 92
92
f 92
28
JIM: Go ahead.
STEVE: Pardon? I've got another -I got a
call and
I'm going to just

JIM: You've A STEVE: Yeah. got a
talk to
call?
someone here.
JIM: What
is it,
a reporter
or something?
STEVE: Somebody that I

quite a
know, are
guess weknew from

was here. You
while ago,
you okay
you know,
and all
one that
that?
JIM: Oh, one of your, one of your people?

STEVE: No. Apparently somebody that knew of
us and,
you know,
it's just like some
of these
people
W K
are calling thing, they
the radio, say, and,
well, you
know, do the right you know,
you know, say well,

do.
--
that's exactly what we've got to

JIM: Yeah. Okay, well
STEVE: Can
going to go talk JIM: Well, to him.
Icall
you back?
Or, wait,
I'm
wait just
a second,
because
wanted to
right off,
- let's get the

okay? You
STEVE: Yeah.
kids done
and then
I'll get
know what
Imean?
JIM:
and then
Ijust
want to
hook them up and then,

'
we'll get off for

STEVE: Just
a while.
a minute.
JIM: Yeah,
Sita, Sita's
out there.
f 92
29
Unidentified male voice in background not

discernible.!
JIM TO
have them?
DO we,
do we
*UNIDENTIFIED left the compound?
MALE SPEAKER: No. They
haven't
JIM TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:

DAVID: Okay,
JIM: Hey,
They haven't?
they're - Jim?
David.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Where's Sita?
DAVID: I'm listening to to explain

/ 92
this Dobbs .
guy try
away everything.
JIM: Where's Sita at?
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON:

is she downstairs now?
Where's Sita,
JIM: Okay,
they're getting in their

car?
--
DAVID: They're in the
JIM: Yeah,
think.
Sita's getting in her
car,
DAVID: Okay. JIM: Yeah, Okay. ' okay. That's what Steve said.
DAVID: Well,
you -the
guys down
at the
tower will
see them.
-
probably see
them. Where
I'm at, Ican't
30
JIM: Yeah,okay. Okay. And the car's

waiting on them. Listen, as soonas wehook them up,
okav, which is going to be in just a few -two
minutes, I've got to get off because they're switching

my office. Okay?
DAVID: All right.
JIM:
And I'll call you back. We're having a
big shift change. There's all kinds of police, you know, that worked all night and agents that are moving
around, ambulances,you know. You know, everybodys
got to go to bed, you know.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: You
can appreciate
yeah.
that.
ch
DAVID: Oh,
JIM: So
everybody's moving around and
they're kicking me across the alley,

DAVID: Okay.
so --
JIM: --
I'll call you back,
you know,
in
about 45 minutes. But

we've gotthe children
DAVID: Okie
I want to give you the word

first.
doke.
JIM: And
then, and
then we'll get the
children to talk to you when I get back on, you know,

later.
DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Okay?
92
I 92
31
DAVID: Okay, I'll let you gonow.

JIM: Hold
first.
on, let
me tell
you I've got them

want to make sure
Idon't want to
have -I
I've them, got so that -yeah

what? They didn't come out yet.
Indiscernible! says --
DAVID T0 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Where are they
at? Where are the kids at? Have theyleft yet?

JIM: Okay. Yeah. David?
DAVID: Yeah. JIM:

somebody to
_ they're outfront. Tell

to come on.
Ithink
tell them
DAVID TO
Tell them
co
go ahead and go down. Unidentified

background not discernible.!
female voice
in
JIM: Man,
DAVID: Yeah,
JIM: Yeah.
you're hurting, huh?

Jim, it, it hurts.
DAVID: I
won't lieto you.
JIM: Well, think about

want you
think about
-- I
want you to I.
me getting
you some medical attention.
to think
about it.
DAVID: I'm telling you,
you've got all these
guys out there that

a cult leader.
are just
telling everybody
that I'm
JIM: Well, DAVID: As
that wasn't us. You long as
know --
I'm alive, I'm cult a
92
32
leader. JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: Now, removed out of the
when I'm gone, see,
then I'll be to think
way and people will
be free
their own thoughts.

JIM: Well, Idon't want you to be gone. I,
Iwant
I'd like
to ---
I'd like to see your ministry
carry on
and
DAVID: My
ministry --
I've been in
it ever
since 1985 full force.

okay?
JIM: Yeah.
One out of a thousand people,
DAVID: One
out of to learn
a thousand --
are interested
' 14
15
in the
Bible enough
JIM: David,
Sita's comingright now.
DAVID: Okay.
I'm sorry. They're coming,
JIM: Okay?
I want to
give you
the word
in
just a minute. I
your right-hand
just want you

man.
to think
about, think he's
about somemedical attention.
Talk to Steve. He,
DAVID: I've thought about it.

JIM: He'syour right-hand
DAVID: Well --
man.
JIM: Listen,
you can trust him.
You guys
talk about it during
the break, okay? For me, for me.
92 I
92 92
o 33
I'm askingyou to DAVID:

JIM:
do it. Okay. I'm concerned about you.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM:
See, you Icare
don't understand. I'm
Listen,
you.
about you.
concerned about
DAVID:
JIM:
Iknow I was
you care get --
about me.
able to
DAVID:
JIM: NO
Iknow
--
the system
cares about
me.
DAVID: And 1988 Iwas arrested, all

JIM: " 92 JIM: DAVID Yeah. DAVID:
Iknow
-look,
I've --look, in
right?
Um-hum.
Let's get real now.
In 1988,
and Ipraised
we were out here,

the Lord
we got
in
a confrontation those sheriff's
when Iheard
cars coming, put our
okay? So,
when they came
into get
them in,
me, we
cause
weapons down and we was waving the one that was paying Mr.
George is
Rambo. Now, when they came in, the guys got all and says come on over and let's talk. All problem. They
weapons down,
Isaw
out
right, no we put all our
were aiming on us. Once

we came over.
Mr. Thorn. kind of
Isaid,
you know, how you me a little
doing, Mr.
/' 92_
Thorn? He
frowned at
34 I 92
bit, you know. See, those guys knew we was out here.
Anyway, they sir. Yes, said now, sir. Then boys, is this all all of they you got? Yes, a sudden, get on the started kicking at us.
goddam ground - and
A JIM: Hmmm.
DAVID: And there was ants all
I
over the
ground. We talking about right because
got bit -- now,
by red
ants, you
know. I
mean,
you know,
that's, that's not have come out here
they were
supposed to
and dealt
never sent us.
with George.
They should,
they should
have
JIM: Yeah,
yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: What's going on

now? .
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: A flag?
What
about it?
our flag.
Okay, put up -- Well, go ahead and put up

Yeah.
JIM: You
know, I
remember -
you
were
talking about '88. Hello? David?

DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Oh,
you okay?
I want
you and
Steve to
talk and,
and think about
getting some
medical
attention, okay? I
was able to get
get them
v-
just want you

these agents
of, okay?
to think about
to the
it. I
all
hospital and
taken care
DAVID: Uh-huh.
OO
35
JIM: And everybody that got there is good,

and some of them were good. And
okay? *
DAVID: :Yeah.
those guys tore up I, and
were really you and
tore up.
Some of
worse than
they're all doing think about it,
I'd liketo -
you to
JIM: I
mean, it
just concerns it. I want
--
DAVID: I've thought about JIM: It concerns me and
you to
talk
to Steve
about it,
to Steve
you know.
or --
Will you
promise
me
you'll talk
DAVID: Well,
the time.
I've been talking to
him all
JIM: Well, some medical care. Get
Imean,
but about
you getting think
his advice,
you know,
about it,
his mind I think
and, you know, it's a wise man who can change

and a strong man who can change his mind. And
you're both of those.

DAVID: Well - -
JIM: You couldn't changehis -DAVID: The
know, only
a weak man, you '
know,
seven seals.
JIM: There's so muchinside you.

you can do it., DAVID: The JIM: Yeah, seven seals, Iknow, David. Jim. v
Imean,
36 /' 92
DAVID = Okay .
JIM: I
any more.
just, I
just don't want youto suffer
DAVID: Well, the children are there, right?

JIM: Okay,
agent said. Just a
they're almost together, the

minute.
_ DAVID:
give me a call JIM: No,
Okay. Well,
back, okay? I want
let me let you

them just
go, and
-- I don't
to get
want any mistakes. If
something wereto happen, you
know, you, you guys would feel bad and I'd worse. feel
So, let's get them together. I'll give you that word
and then,
Q
you know
--
DAVID: Okay.
Well, let
me let
you have the
phone with someone elsereal quick so I can get do -I've got to do some moving around. sure. JIM: Okay,
JAMIE: Hello? JIM: Who's _ JAMIE: Jamie. this?
David. Yeah,
JIM: Jamie,
JAMIE: Oh,
this is
hi, Jim.
Jim.
JIM: How
JAMIE: Pretty JIM: Okay.
you doing?
good.
JAMIE: I
think he's just moving
-- getting
37
himself up
here, trying JIM: Oh,
to move around. he's hurting

and we're
that's okay. Iknow

the kids
real bad. trying to
Sita's down there with just --
A JAMIE: Okay.
JIM: -get you the word. Okay, here, . here, he's back. JAMIE: Yeah. JIM: Okay DAVID: Okay.
JIM: Hey, Dave. Did you get more

comfortable? Oh, Dave.
DAVID: Sorry JIM: Hey,
about that. you okay?
DAVID: Two that's laughand cough.
things
Idon't want to
do, and
JIM: We
the kids.
got the
kids. They're safe. We
got
DAVID: Yeah,
ahead.
it's myarm --
thanks. Go
JIM: You
DAVID: Yeah
hear?
.
JIM: We've got the great. We're going to

you, be good for
kids, okay?
Everything's
H
take a
break. It'll be good for
everyone.
DAVID: Yeah,
energy going.
Ineed
to rest
up, get
my
I 92
JIM: Hey,
there.
I love
you, Buddy.
Now hang in
DAVID: Okie
JIM: All
a DAVID = Bye.
doke. Catch
you later,
Jiw.
right, bye.
End of
Tape #7.!
'92
,92
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE TREASURER
BUREAU OFALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #8
3/1/93
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1= When'd you

call him back? Call him back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER #2:
As a matter
Of
fact, that
on here.
little speaker
over there
--
see if
it comes
UNIDENTIFIED MALE I'm trying to do here.
SPEAKER #1:
That's what
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER #2:
Check and
see
if you
can -
_
make a
RECORDED MESSAGE: If you'd like to
call, please
hang up
hang up and try again. If

dial your operator
you need help,

background not
and then
Unidentified voices
discernible.!
in the
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: We're going

have the speaker set up -secondary -in the background not Unidentified voices
discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER SPEAKER
CO
# #2:
Hello, hell Test, test,
O.
test, 1,
2, 3.
Test, test.
MALE
SPEAKER SPEAKER
UNIDENTIFIED UNIDENTIFIED MALE 2, 3. UNIDENTIFIED UNIDENTIFIED
#3: #2.
Hello, hell Test, test,
Q.
14
MALE MALE
SPEAKER
SPEAKER
#3. #2.
Hello, Test, test,
hell
O.
test, 1,
getting --
2, 3.
Test, test.
They're really
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER
Test, test,
2
1, you
2, 3. doing?
Go ahead.
Test, test,
test,
3. How
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER
-on
that
speaker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE - UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER MALE SPEAKER
Yeah.
Test, test,
test, test,
1, 2,
3. Okay.
Unidentified voices
discernible.! UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE UNIDENTIFIED MALE
in background
not
SPEAKER: Hello. SPEAKER: Hello.
Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Something

with this phone again. Hello.
SPEAKER: Hello.
wrong
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER: Who
am I
speaking to?
Can't hear you. Can

UNIDENTIFIED MALE
you call
back?
but wait a
SPEAKER: Yeah,
minute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
you.
SPEAKER:' Ican't hear
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER: okay.
Okay,
I'll
calllback.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello.

JIM: Hello, this is Jim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Okay, just a

minute. a JIM: Sure.
DAVID: Hello.
JIM: David,
JIM: Listen, children Ithink
howyou doing,
Buddy?
DAVID: I'm all right.
I've got -- some of the in and --
just came
right.
DAVID: All
JIM: -p 92
I'll have them here in just
second. A little blonde-headed

DAVID: Chrissy. JIM: Chrissy,
DAVID: Yeah.
gal.
Yeah.
that's it.
JIM: Yeah,
she's adorable.
DAVID: You haven't seen nothing yet.
JIM: She's really adorable. Ithink they're

bringing her over.
DAVID: Okay,
hold on
a second.
DAVID TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Get Kathy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hello.
JIM: Kathy? Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hold on a

second, okay?
JIM: Okay.
FEMALE SPEAKER TO UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would you go get Kathy's brother, please?
JIM: Come
over here.
Are you Chrissy? I'm
Jim. How you doing? Okay, you want to talk, you want
to talk to your mom?
CHRISSY: Yeah.
JIM: Okay, just a minute. Hello.
Pause!
JIM: Hello.
down.
.
Hello. They laid the phone
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Excuse

I 92
me. I'm
going right over here with the cord. Want to put it

around in front of you?
SPEAKER: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED MALE
KATHY: Hello. JIM: Hello. KATHY: Yes?
JIM: Yeah, KATHY: Hi,
this is this is
Jim. Who's this? Kathy.
JIM: Okay,
girl?
KATHY: Yes.
Kathy.
Is Chrissy
your little
JIM: Okay,
KATHY: Okay. JIM: Okay.
hold on.
She's right here.
CHRISSY: Hi, KATHY: Hi.

CHRISSY: Fine.
Mommy. How you doing?
KATHY: That's good. They,

good?
CHRISSY: Yeah. -
they treating
you
KATHY: Okay. CHRISSY: I

92 |
Love you. love you, too.
KATHY: Okay.
CHRISSY: I'm all right.

KATHY: Okay. CHRISSY: I think that was Brian.
KATHY: Brian
him? Did
said hi,
Chrissy. Did
you hear
you hear
him?
CHRISSY: Yeah.
KATHY: Okay. CHRISSY: I KATHY: Always.

CHRISSY: Huh?
I love love you,
you. too.
KATHY: Always.
CHRISSY: Okay.
Okay?
KATHY: Anything
else? Chrissy.
CHRISSY: What's your name?
KATHY: Huh?
_W
talk to you. you. Bye-
CHRISSY: Jim wants to

I1 92 I
KATHY: Okay.
Thank you.
I love
bye.
"
JIM:
Kathy.
KATHY: Yeah. JIM: She's KATHY: Great. fine.
JIM: And
the Health and HumanServices or --
people are real good. They're looking after her. Now,

was there anybody you wanted us to call
number of their dad.
KATHY: Scott's got the address and the phone

JIM: Okay.
KATHY: Um-hum.
Scott's got it?
JIM: Oh, with him. And he'll be out? Yeah,

he's coming over shortly.
KATHY: He, he's with Chrissy. Well,

out with Chrissy.
he went
JIM: Yeah, okay. How you doing?

KATHY: Fine. JIM: Not hurt?
KATHY: Oh,
no.
JIM: Okay. Iappreciate you workingwith us

on it and sending the children out.
KATHY: I have two more coming out and want them to meet up with Chrissy
their names?
and Scott.
JIM: Oh, absolutely. Would you tellme
I /|'
8 KATHY:
Jake Mabb Okay.
and Brian Schroeder.
JIM: KATHY
:And
Brian
is --
well, he'll be three
this week.
A JIM:
Jake? KATHY JIM:
Oh, Brian's three.
Okay. And
how is
Jake is
nine.
Nine, okay.
Now, hold
on just
minute.
KATHY JIM: SCOTT JIM: SCOTT JIM: KATHY: SCOTT: KATHY: SCOTT: KATHY:
Okay. What's yourname?

Scott.
Scott. Is
Yes.
your mom Kathy?
Okay. Kathy,
Okay.
Hi.
here's Scott. Hold on.
How you
Fine.
doing?
Okay. They've got a lot of

Yeah.
people
out there,
huh?
SCOTT: KATHY:
All right.
take care
Okay.
Make sure they take care

-
of you
and you
of her.
SCOTT:
, -_
KATHY: Remember what I
said, God
sits on
the
throne.
SCOTT KATHY SCOTT ~*KATHY : Yeah.
:
:
Ilove
Ilove
you.
you, too.
: Okay.
You don't forget that.
David
loves you.
Okay?
SCOTT KATHY JIM:
: Okay. : Okay. Kathy?
Jim wants Ilove
to talk
to you.
you. Bye-bye.
I r
KATHY: Yes. JIM:
Okay, they're fine.
KATHY: Great. JIM: f 92
And we'll let the
Health and
Human
Services people
take care
of them,
okay? of their glad to -dad as drive
KATHY: If soon as right down
you can
get ahold will be
possible, I'm sure he here

JIM: KATHY:
and get
Where does
them, because
he live?
Lives in
South Dakota.
It'll
probably take
IJIM:
him a
day to
get here. do you have your dad's
Okay, Scott,
phone number?
Let me out and
see. Okay,
Kathy, we're going to to resolve us and

I
work this So Iwant

with us,
; 92_
we're going to try hang in there with
this. work
you to
okay?
KATHY:
try to
Yeah, Iknow
you've been real good
QO
10
with everything.
<.
hang in
JIM: And, you know, I just want you guys to

there. We'll do --
KATHY: Oh, yeah, we're -- morale's high.

We're all doing good.
JIM: Great. That's super. But we're going

to get a goodresolution to this, okay?
KATHY: I know.
JIM: And, let's see, I need to talk out and -- well,

Brian going
to David
about, well, I guessthe next children wewant to send

would that be Jake and Brian? KATHY: Are Jake and -- David, are Jake and
F 92
next? Yes.
JIM: Okay. Well, youmay start getting them

ready.
KATHY: They're ready.
JIM: Oh,
JIM: Okay.
they're ready.
KATHY: Got to put Brian's shoes on.

KATHY: And
JIM: Okay.
his coat
and --
KATHY: -- he'll be ready.
JIM: Tell
that.
me when -- I'll give you a few
minutes, you know, tokiss themand hug them and all

KATHY: Yeah, we're doing all that right now.
I1
ll
Q 2
I
JIM: Okay,
that's great.
KATHY: Justwhenever you play the message

3 again, we'll ready. be
I I | 92
4 JIM:
6 KATHY:
Play the message again. Absolutely.

Okay.
5 We're going to get that done right now.

7 JIM: What -- how, how many more kids are
Oh, there's a lot.
_ 8
I 92
there?
9 KATHY:
10 JIM:
Yeah? Ten, twelve, fourteen?
11 KATHY:
13 you
92
I, I, I
don't keep even track any

don't.know,
12 more. I don't know how many have left, I

know --
14 JIM:
16 and I'm just real
Yeah, okay. Okay. Well, I'm of kind

worried about him.
15 concerned about David. I knowhe was bleeding real bad

17 KATHY: Yeah, he's pretty bad.
18 JIM:
19 don't want him t
Yeah. I'm real worried about that. I

o get an infection or something. And,
20 you know, I'd like to get himsome medical help, but -21 okay,
22 out?
are you -- is -did

Yes.
Sita bring these children
23 KATHY:
24 JIM:
25 well.
Okay. Well, that seems to beworking

KATHY: Yes. Just remember she's anot kid,
C O
12
1 Ieven though
2 JIM: 3 KATHY:
she looks like

Who? Sita.
one.
4 JIM:
Sita. NO,
I,
Iunderstand.
The agents
5 have
6
already seen her, you know -Yeah.
p KATHY:
JIM: --
a bunch
of times
and --
KATHY: Yeah.
JIM: -BIG
she's doing a great job and you guys was great. So just keep it up and
super. This
keep, keep positive. Everything's going to work out.

KATHY: Okay.
JIM: And
f
you have my word on it
now. Just
work with
us, okay? KATHY: Okay.
*JIM:
Is David there?
All right.
Who else is around there?
KATHY: Yes, he's right here. He's laying

down.
JIM: _Okay.
KATHY: You
want to
talk to
him?
JIM: Well,
if, if
he wants a break, if --
I'll
just hang on with you for a minute
KATHY: Okay. Yeah,

I881: .
he wants to-get some anything you need to
JIM: Okay. Is there
I1 13 !2 ask me?
KATHY: No.
they
I just,
I just
want to know.
make sure
'
4
5 6
get to
their dad,
basically, you
JIM: What'shis name,

KATHY: William Mabb.
can you
tell me?
"
7
8 9 10 11 12 13
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: And,
you know,
you know, he, he

in the past, so --
has already,
wanted them
JIM: Yeah.
KATHY: -JIM: Kathy?

KATHY: Yeah.
he --
oh, what's --
I 92
, 14
15 16 17 18 We're
JIM: You going to
need to
turn on
Radio 1080,
KRLB.
play the
message.
KATHY: Okay.
JIM: And
I don't want you
to miss
it. here. He's
KATHY: Okay.
going
It's on right over Okay. what can I tell
I I
19
to play
the message. what,
20
.21 22 ~23 24 25
JIM: What,
the kids
about
when you're going to see them again? They're

to -starting to be, you know, wanting to see
going
you.
KATHY: Tell
I'll see them soon.
me them soon. Tell
them soon,
~
, 92
JIM: Okay.
All right.
Cause, you
know,
they're going to be asking for
you and stuff, you
know.
14
KATHY: Yeah,
out.
especially Brian
when he
comes
JIM: Okay.
So, you
know, I
don't -to cry.
KATHY: He'sprobably going

JIM: Yeah. Well --
KATHY: But
tell him
I'll see
him soon.
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: Mommy will come and get him soon.

JIM: Okay.
KATHY: I
them.
Okay.
know their dad'1l take care of
JIM: Yeah.
though, isn't he?
Well, he's pretty far
away,
KATHY: Well,
you know,
legal battles,
you
know, could
anyway. So
ensue, but
he, he
would end
go to
up getting
him.
them
I'd rather they just
JIM: Well,
for their safety and,
okay. We'reconcerned, you

you know,
know,
I'm sureit'll be a
little traumatic
for them
to go How long
I guess?
with their have they
dad if been with
they've been with you.

you? Their whole life,
KATHY: Yeah. JIM: Yeah.
Has he
ever had
them?
KATHY: Well,
JIM: Yeah.
it?
for a
vacation, you
know.
short, isn't
But that's kind of
15
KATHY: Well,
yeah.
JIM: Does he -has

there?
he got a good job up

service.
KATHY: He'sin the JIM: Yeah,
okay. The
Air Force
probably.
KATHY: Yeah
JIM: That's what's in South Dakota.
KATHY: Right.
Rapid City.
JIM: Rapid
KATHY: Yeah
City.
A little
cold up there.
JIM: Does
children, up there?
KATHY: Yes,
he have any other family,
he does.
i 92
JIM:
sure try to reach
Okay.
him.
All right.
Well, we'll, we'll
KATHY: Yeah,
he's, he's, he's very well

of them.
capable of
taking care
JIM: Okay.
UNIDENTIFIED
>MALE SPEAKER: As soon as

who? I'm talking to Jim.
you're
done, I've got a call.

KATHY: Call UNIDENTIFIED
MALE SPEAKER: Are you?
KATHY: Steve needs to talk to you.

JIM: Okay.
KATHY:
Okay.
JIM: Thanks
for your
help.
; O_
O
16
KATHY: Okay. You take care of them and get

them to Bill and,
JIM: Okay.
KATHY: I know he
and he'll take care

.
will.
of them.
"JIM: You
KATHY: Oh,
hang in there now.

yeah.
JIM: We'reall going

and -i
to get
out of
this
KATHY: Okay. JIM: -come through this okay. you just

in there:
You got it? keep doing
KATHY: Okay. You just,

1
your good
job.
JIM: All
right. Hang
you. Kathy.
care.
KATHY: Thank JIM: Okay,

KATHY: Take
JIM: All
STEVE: Hello,
right .
Jim.
JIM: Hey,
STEVE: Not
Hello?
Steve, how you doing?

good because I was downstairs --
JIM: Hello.
Hey.
STEVE: He
just --
his knee
hit the,
the --
look out,
look out
there. Okay.
Yeah, we're not too To

upset because
happy because Wayne called me into -pardon?

_92 92
someone else.!
David is
really getting
17
we were downstairs, thetelephone rang, his parents are

~
on the
phone. They
were saying
a few
words to
him and
he was just telling

was being worked out,
JIM: Oh.
them to be cool,
and the
that everything
dead.
phone went
STEVE: They
couldn't call in. Nobody
can
and you can't call out. David

the children even.
said he's going to
stop
JIM: Well, STEVE:
Idon't want him Imean, there, there's
to do
that. in
no sense
doing that
talking to
with the
them about
JIM: Sure.
phone. Nothing's being said.

relaxing and --
He's
STEVE: --
trying to
keep these
people, you
know, you know, they're all upset

what's going on.
JIM: Sure, Iunderstand.
and they
don't know
STEVE: They
want to
hear the
voices and
we're trying to just
say just
look, like,
you know,
it's being worked out,

it from us, of course.
but, you
know, they
like to
hear
JIM: Yeah.
Iunderstand.
STEVE: Can,
can you
have them
open up
a line
again? I
deal or
mean, in
what?
JIM: Well
fact, you
know, it's -- is
it a
big
--
I | | 92
18
STEVE: David'ssaying tell

line.
them to
open up
JIM: Okay. you. It7s

l
I'll, I'll have to pass it up to

up with
put
the commanders, okay? I've got to be straight
going to be very difficult.

Okay. Well, I'm, I'm going to
- STEVE:
the phone down and you can call me
back. Or,
if
don't hear from you in a while,

JIM: Okay, STEVE: Go to them,
I'll callyou back.
talk to
them, because,
mean, everything
you allowed
about what
yesterday,
talk with
in.
Imean,
some of
we appreciated
these stations
that
us to
we believe
JIM: Right.
STEVE: Here's David.
JIM: Okay.
DAVID: Yeah, Jim --
JIM: David,
DAVID: Now, JIM: Okay.
how you doing?

listen to me.
DAVID: You
guys are telling the
public of
this country that you don't want any blood.

now, Imade a deal better get our lines
JIM: Um-hum.
All right,
with you.
You tell
these boys they okay?
back operatable,
DAVID: Or they're going to go to bed every
OQ
1 night 2 killed
3
with the
knowled g ea th th tey
' re the
one that
these little children.

JIM: Okay, David.
DAVID: Noplaying around any more,okay?

JIM: I A DAVID: know. Listen,
with me
just hang
--
No, you listen. I've been fair with

thus far. JIM: Okay. '
you, you've been fair
DAVID: But you teil those guysthat are
pranking around with the innocent that there's one only

thing that makes me mad, and that's the when innocent
are hurt.
JIM: I
understand.
DAVID: Now, I made a deal with you with the

92
children.
JIM: Right.
DAVID: You tell these JIM: Okay.

love. I
boneheads, these
bureaucrats, whatever they are,to openour lines up.

I'm going to see what I can do.
I knowit's painful being cutoff from the people you

DAVID: No, the thing of it is is that we
have the right -the

haven't heard from me
radio stationsare saying they

since two last night,
want to --
and you
know the reason why. People are wanting to call. They

want to know some things. People
92
20 JIM: David --
DAVID: You
have a
communication. We've got,
we've got three lines us another

to have what,
here. You're going to a matter of fact,
be getting
phone. As
five lines
_STEVE: We DAVID: Okay,
STEVE: We
we're supposed
altogether, Steve?
actually have three lines.
had four --
three.
DAVID: So
cellular out, too.
we can
stay --
and they
cut our
JIM: Oh,
yeah.
DAVID: So, that's whatthey want

I 92. JIM: N0.
you know, is a big
tell them fight --
guys if
DAVID: -1
then come
on.
JIM: David, DAVID: Okay,

JIM: Yeah.
no, we
don't want to fight.
that's whatyou're telling me.
DAVID: Prove
it to
me.
JIM: Well,
what we've got to
do is
relax and
I'll see what Ican

with you.
do. But
I've got to be straight
DAVID: I'm being straight
with you
now.
JIM: You
difficult to do. And
know, that's going to

--
be very
DAVID: Well,
,92
then this
is going
to be very
I 1
one of
these things? JIM: How many guys? Well, I'll have to
check on know. But
that,
Idon't know. A
couple of
guys, you it. There's
there's no,there's no gun on
no gunon it.
STEVE TO
It's strictly bullet-proof.

UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: And he said no
gun on
that.
it, it's
strictly bullet-proof.
I'm sureof
JIM: Yeah, It's notcoming in

you my know, if shooting at word. It's we wanted you.
STEVE: Sure, you
it is.
That's the reason for in, I
it. give
You
there. We're not coming

just a to shoot change in at you,
the perimeter. we could
have been
could.
JIM: And
we haven'tdone that,
you know,
since you
and me worked out
that cease
fire Sunday
morning, right?
STEVE: Seems
well. That's why -
like it
has been
going very
JIM: Right. STEVE:

new tactics.
-I'm quite surprised
about these
JIM: Well,
you know,
we haven't--
STEVE: More JIM: But, want to resolve this
and more look, we thing. You
inches is
right. We
haven't shotat you. do, too.
You're good
l x
men and you

want to
want to
resolve it. STEVE: Pardon?
resolve it.
We're good men and we
Unidentified voice
in
background not
getting the
discernible.! Whatever
kids out?
happened with
'
JIM: Well, want to continue to STEVE:
we want get everybody Here we're
to get
the kids out, so we can
out. We -talking
talking --
We were
about you
out --
and I
were working
about getting
the kids
JIM: Right. STEVE: -and we had this problem with the
telephone. That's what you and I

about.
were communicating
JIM: Right.
STEVE: Now
in these vehicles.
JIM: Yeah.
you're telling me about
bringing
STEVE: So,
I mean,
what on
earth?
JIM: Well, changing the -STEVE= I

in and we'll happens. JIM: Well, just keep
one thing
we're doing is we're
suppose maybe
the kids
you could
bring them
and wait
and see what
one, one
reason for
it is
we're
changing the
inner perimeter
to the,
to the
FBI and
I v
_ 6
ithey're going to
be the
ones holding
the inner
perimeter. And
farther.
the ATF agents are
pulling back
STEVE TO
UNIDENTIFIED PARTY:
He says
the ATF
agents are pulling back and the FBI are going to be

holding the perimeter.
UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND:
indiscernible! going
to come
and kill
me.!
CHILD'S VOICE: Are you going to come and

kill me? I
JIM: Hello?
come and kill you.
No, Honey,
nobodys going
to
CHILD'S VOICE: Are they

kill me?
going to
come and
JIM: No. MR. KORESH:

JIM= Hey,
No. Nobody's coming. Steve? Like

David.
Itold
you --
MR. KORESH:
JIM: What?
Hey, Jim.
MR. KORESH: buddy. U JIM: Hey,
This is
in your
hands now,
it's just --
M. KORESH: talking to me. Now, you and
You're the one, you're the one let me Itold tell you, Imade an across the
agreement with
table --
you straight
JIM: Right. MR. KORESH: -you keep these guys aways
Now, if
they go
against your
will, you
can't do
nothing, can
you? JIM: No, Ican do something. I'm goingto
work with
you. M. KORESH: But you told me I'm not the commander. No, I'm not
that you
was in
charge of
this.
JIM: Oh,
in charge. MR. KORESH: Okay.
JIM: I'mjust the

MR. KORESH:
JIM: I've
guy that'stalking to
you.
Right.
got all kinds of bosses and
commanders andgenerals around here.
Imean,
I've got
guys with scrambled eggsand gold leaves and badges

like you wouldn't believe, and they're all Washington to
--
heavyweights, from
know. And,
the governor,
think about
you
me. I
and everybody
Imean,
get pressure.
I've got the news,
I've got the
governor, I've got the vice president,

everybody in the world MR. KORESH: --
I've got i
You're my,you're my voice then.
JIM: Well,
me ask
minute.
but, you know, Dave, let me,

for me. Listen to me for
let
a
you to
do something
1 ,_
~ 8 I 1 92 I
MR. KORESH:
I'm listening. lot on my shoulders, too.
JIM: I've got a

MR. KORESH:
Uh-huh.
JIM: And
M. KORESH:
I've had a lot

Uhhuh.
of pressure.
JIM: And
everybody's promising
me that
nothing's going to happen promising me happen to
to you,
okay? Everybodys nothing's going to that. Nothing at all. see these
that. I'm telling you
you. I'mtelling you with me.
You've got to work
You are you. They
going to
things. I'm not tricking without me

p 92
didn't show up Igot in a
telling you.
I went
the ex--
battle with
92 |
the commanders about the

out there
guns on there. I
with guns. They
said don't send anything

took their guns off.
Imean,
v |
it's strictly know you
bullet-proof shield, sympathize
that's it.
with it.
And I
don't like it. I
MR. KORESH: essentially saying
Idon't mind it.
I'm just
that, you
know, they'rejust,
they're just, like I

just, you know -JIM: You
all day
,92
say, taking
their inches.
They're
this deal. Gary
We know who's going to win know -trusted me.

Oh, I
that true?
But, listen,
you told
that you
MR. KORESH:
JIM: Was
do.
1 c
9 p
M. KORESH: you're starting

JIM: N0.
But now off.
you're starting
to, now
to move
No.
MR. KORESH: JIM: No. telling you --
Yes, you Listen, I
are, Jim. trust you and I'm
MR. KORESH: Yeah, I

of the deal. u
haven't brokenmy part
JIM: Well,
not coming making any in. Our
I'm not breaking either.

part of the deal
We're
was we're not
aggressive action. MR. KORESH: Stay on the outside of the
property.
JIM: Well,
to try to see what I
I can't guarantee it.

can do.
I'm going
I don't know where
exactly they'll
be positioned.
What I
-- Here's what I
want you to do
a time.
4 call me.
for me,
okay? Let's just go

see them.
one step
at
Let the
-You're going to
Pass the
word to all your
people. When they stop,
I want you to
M. KORESH: where to stop. JIM: No,
Or you
call them
and tell them
I'm not going to
call them.
I want
you to call me and tell me

MR. KORESH:
where they are, okay?

All right, we'll do that.
JIM: All
right, you
call me
and tell,
tell
10
1 me
where they
are. And
then let'ssee if look at them
there's any good and you on
2 problem 3 have your
with that. men look
And you at them
good. There's no guns
4 them.
There's noguns.
5 S
6 JIM:
A M.
KORESH: It's,it's darkoutside now.

Well, you've got night scopes.
7 MR.
8 over 9 know 10 caliber 11 behind 12 really 13 JIM: so many
KORESH: That's right, but,

hundred yards, then it's --
like I
then you
say,
don't
what you're dealing with. aircraft barrel an evasive tell in plate. I certain distances David, listen. on it
They've got a .50or something mean, you like that can't
know, you
like that. I've giving you 100
1 14
percent absolute 15 one's going to 16 absolute
guarantee, my take any
word, repeat,
okay, no my
action. I'm giving you that's it.
solemn promise,
I'm telling you it
17
18 to
won't happen. I'm telling you these vehicles are

move up, so that's what's going to happen. KORESH= So when are they going to be
going
19 MR.
20 here?
21 JIM:
22 MR.
when they
KORESH: Yeah.
going to
be there?
23 JIM:
Soon, you
know. Next
few --
24 MR.
KORESH: Okay,
once they
get situated,
25 we'll give you

And then let's
a call
start this
and tell you
what's happening.
again.
evacuating children
11
JIM: All
right. And
we -Listen,
Ijust
want -with us.

and 1 --
That's greatman, I'm telling you. I've got to deal with all
Just hang
these generals
MR. KORESH: JIM:

deal with me. And
All right. get them,

off to
I |
-I'm trying to
we took
you know,
to
the barrels
demonstrate that
we're not threatening you,
but, you
know, we don't want any other

agents hurt.
Well, we'll talk to
you later
then, all JIM: All
right? right. Now, you call me when they
get stopped,
okay?
M. KORESH: All right.
JIM: All
MR. KORESH: JIM: See
right, buddy.
Bye. you.
iitii
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Hey,
STEVE: Yes.
Steve?
JIM: Hey,
STEVE: Yes,
this is
he is.
Jim. Is
David there?
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Just a minute.
JIM: Okay.
12
MR. KORESH:
Hello, Jim?
JIM: Hey,
Jenessa. MR. KORESH:
David. I've
got this
child here,
Uh-huh.
JIM: And,
Ithink.
and she
wants to
talk to
her mom,
MR. KORESH: JIM: Oh, MR. KORESH;
Okay, wait here she is.
one second
now.
Okay, wait
a minute.
JIM: All
MR.
right.
what Ineed, what Ineed
KORESH: Okay,
to know,
okay, your
JIM: Are
guys are
they there?
moving in,
all right?
MR. KORESH:
around us. JIM: Yeah.
Yeah, they're moving in
all
MR. KORESH:
heart --
So they're going to
bust us
in a
JIM: No.
No, we're not going
to bust
you
tonight. No,
telling you
Hey, would
and then
you have my word they're not. I'm

they're not. This, this
you talk to Jenessa
Ican
is straight
up.
and let
her mom talk,

she's beenhere a
you and
talk? 'Cause
while and
Ithink
she's getting kind of

Okay, let
This is David.
tired.
to her.
MR. KORESH:
JIM: Okay.
me talk
92
13
JENESSA: Hi,
David.
MR. KORESH: Hey, how

JENESSA: Fine.
you doing?
MR. KORESH: Doing fine?

JENESSA: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Okay, that's good. All

!
right,
where, where's your sister?

now?
You with all your
sisters
-JENESSA=
yet, no.
I haven't seen Tamir
phonetic sp.!
MR. KORESH: Oh, Tamir ain't gone yet?

JENESSA: Yes,
seeing her
y 92
she's, she's here. I'll
be
soon.
MR. KORESH: Oh, okay.
Okay, hold
on a
second. Jenessa,
upset right now.
your mother, she's kind of, you
know,
JENESSA: Okay.
MR. KORESH: She says she'll talkto you
all
later, okay?
Just have faith in God,
all right?
JENESSA: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay, so,

strong? '
JENESSA: Yeah.
you know, are you
MR. KORESH: That's good. All right,

talk to Jim then. Y
let me
JENESSA: Okay.
92
14 1
JIM: Thank
you. Can
I let
her go
now?
2 MR.
v 3
KORESH: Yeah, she's Jay's -upset.She

them later.
says she'lltalk to
JIM: Oh,
- MR.
okay. All
right.
now --
KORESH: Okay,
JIM: Now, David, I'm getting some kind of
disturbing reports that, you know, you might bejust

1
really down. You know, I mean, people are telling me that, that used to know you that, you know, you're
just you might sink real low in a situation
worried about it.
like
this. I'm kind of
MR. KORESH:What do you mean, sink low?

JIM: Well, want to
get the
I mean, what we want to Then we want to

want to get
the men
do is
we
get these
women out,
kids out.
then we
c hange and
out.
And, youknow, I want youto make that

me.
agreement with
told you, I said
MR. KORESH: Well, like I we're going to get the

renegotiating, okay? Beca
kids out.
use, you
Then we'll do soU12

know, like I say,
you all are sayingthat the

all this trouble is JIM: Oh,
JIM: No,
MR. KORESH:
main guyhere that's caused

that.
me, right? no, we're not saying

hey, you're just
We'v e been
MR. KORESH: Well, come on, Jim.. a guy in

charge.
watching all
the TV
15
1' and everything and,

2 pretty
3 know 4 --
I mean , y the v
statement s, quarter
e got
' me painted
statements, you
bad. Half
JIM: Well,
KORESH:
they do that. I
Iknow, but that,
mean, they -that creates a
5 MR.
i I
tenor in
the public
JIM: Well,
which -- But anyway -listen. YQu, you share with me --
Now, I've told you how Ifelt.

I, I guess I'm -- what
MR. KORESH:
You share with me your
thoughts and concerns about what's going on. Imean,

I'm asking for -Is what Iwant to do --
JIM: I straight out. you to tell me
want you, Iwant
you to open up to
me, but Idon't want you
to, you know, I want you
to be want
to
I, Ican't, Ican't decipher the straight out what are your concerns, do? What can Ido
.scripture. I'm just not a theologian and Ijust

what do you, what do you want to
help you?
M. KORESH: Well, where we're right at now
is I wantall these
people to have a chance to think,
every last one of them, everyman, everywoman, you know. And I want time, I want time for people to
think. JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:Iwant Idon't want any
time for
people to Iwant
live.
more people hurt. And
to have
A 16
time just
to sit JIM= All
here, lay right.
here --
MR. KORESH: me happen. where, where too much and really But I
-- and
let whatever people to know, that want to
happens to have time may be get to asking in here here,
want these
I'm gone -- You I know up quick,
for you. bust us
you all
but these
people
they've to make got their owndecisions. Andif I have

influenced them, you know, then, like I say, if you
just giye
take their
me enoughtime because -- to
effect and JIM: But,
MR. KORESH:
JIM= David,
let these
--
wounds
just let you know

Jim, look
listen.
me die ---
MR. KORESH:
No, Jim,
listen.
JIM: This MR. KORESH:
has been
painful for
us. Come
on.
Jim, listen,
listen, Jim,
there's nothing that cult leader,

don't know
hurts me
more than spoke the
being called you
all
that.
right? I
truth but
JIM: Yeah,
MR. KORESH:
but we
I know.
didn't call you that.

Jim, listen --
JIM: You
come on.
-- Hey,
those news
media, you
guys,
MR. KORESH: something. People
Look, Jim, a lot
let me of influence
explain and I
do have
17
understand that.
JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH: Jeremiah says
wound heal
that
trusses from
that you--
the arm of flesh.
So all
I'm asking is
JIM: But, David -MR. KORESH: -- keep
_
the guys off.
JIM: Oh, something. The

letting us give you
yeah, but let me,

any medical care --
let me ask you without
position you're taking, okay,
MR. KORESH: Idon't want the

all right?
medical care,
JIM:
I 92
Iunderstand,
but just
listen --
MR. KORESH: I've been doing my work ever

since 1985, all right?
JIM: Um-hum.
minute.
But just
listen for
just a
MR. KORESH: If I'm wrong, people don't deserve to live,

JIM: Listen,
like me
okay?
listen --
MR. KORESH: Do you understand me,
Jim?
JIM: David, listener and
Ido,
but I,
I've been a good to me for
I'm just asking you to listen
just a minute. The way, youknow, you've got this

wound in there and you're suffering, it's almost like
you're hurting yourself. And --
18
MR. KORESH:
I asked
for it,
didn't I?
JIM: Yeah,
man and I know
but, you
know, I'ma Christian

didn't kill himself.
about Jesus
hurt himself.
and he
Jesus didn't
_~MR. KORESH: No, he died on the cross.

JIM: Right.
the word.
And he died trying
to spread
MR. KORESH:
Yeah, and
--
JIM: And M. KORESH: JIM: -the word.
-Let me tell you something. can't advance
if you're dying, you
MR. KORESH: See, with the news
I can't advance the the coverage,
word anyway. you
media, with
is something
understand, slander
that's been used --
Look, the
people a
best thing
chance.
JIM: I
to do
right now
is to
give these
want them
all to
have a
chance.
MR. KORESH:
Yeah. And
those who've done
injustice, I got to
mean, you know, they've got to, over to the judicial
they've system;
give theirselves
We knowthat. But,
far as the world time. You know, send
remember, I'm the bad guy, okay,

thinks. So some of just give these guys these people home. You
as
know, keep,
know, make
keep a perimeter
sure nobody
up. You
know, always,
you
leaves, you
know.
19
JIM: All right, David,let me-V MR. KORESH: Give us time to get hungry, give
with me?
us time
to get thirsty. You

JIM: David, will you
know what I'm saying?

be straight
MR. KORESH: I'm straight.

JIM: Are you going to commit suicide?
MR. KORESH: I'mgoing not to commit suicide.

JIM: Your word? Your word?
MR. KORESH:My word is the
word. and let
i JIM:
this take care of
You're to going come out of there?

MR. KORESH:Well, I
me.
want to lay here
JIM: Well,
that's committing suicide.
MR. KORESH: No, it'snot.
JIM: Sure,
MR. KORESH:
it is.
Look --
It's killing yourself.
JIM: Jesus
didn't kill himself.
MR. KORESH: Look, let's, let's, let's get back on this one thing. God sits on the throne in
heaven, right?
JIM: Man, I'm really worried about you.

MR. KORESH: Listen, Jim,
not?
does he or does he
JIM: Would you -- Let me ask you this.

MR. KORESH:Question: Does
not?
he or does he
92 l
20 , 92
*JIM:
He loves
MR. KORBSH:
you, sure,
No, does he sit
he does.
on a throne or
-
not?
JIM: Sure,
he does.
MR. KORESH:
with seven seals? '
All right.
Does he
have a
book
JIM: Yes, MR. KORESH:
he does. Is Psalm 45 the first seal?
JIM:
I'll take
Well, I'm
not sure.
But if
you say
so,
your word.
MR. KORESH: You can't do that. That makes
you like
a cult
follower.
JIM: David,
you're beingreal straight
with I
me and I've just got to

Are you going to let any
ask you this question,

of your other people
okay?
kill
themselves or
die in
there? I'vegot to
I'm not going to
got to know.
know, buddy.
do that.
MR. KORESH:
JIM: I've
MR. KORESH: We are giving a

want to give a message and a witness.
message. We
I want these
people to
it, you
have a
know.
chance to
sit this
out, think
about
JIM:
die? You tell me,
Well, what's
if you
going to
happen if
you
an
die from
that wound,
infection, I
happen.
want you to tell me
what's going to
21
MR. KORESH: Well, I'm not going any more, am I, to influence anybody, right?
to be
around
JIM: Well,
people? Are they going
what's going to happen to your

to walk out?
Jim. Like I
MR. KORESH: We have to see,
said, I'm not a cult

okay? Nobody ever is what I say, okay?
JIM: Yeah.
leader. I'm a Bible teacher,

committed to do what I ask or do People do what they want to do.
MR. KORESH: Okay? Now,
if you
let the
people think,
now --
you know, they're allscared around
here
JIM: Just l 92
--
MR. KORESH: You've shown them a big arm, you

know.
JIM: You
know what I'm trying to do?
I'm
trying to
let you
-I'm asking you to let
me look
inside your people and you to see what's going to go on, because unless you do, then, you know, it's going
to be hard to, to help. V '
what MR. KORESH:Well, I'm telling you
you'll do. Just give us some time, give us time, you know. That's all I'm asking. Give us time. You know,
you've all done
JIM: No,
-- you've all been enraged a lot

we won't do that.
of
times, you know. Don't burn our building down.
00
22
MR.
KORESH: -Don't, don't shoot us all
up.
M Givethese people a chance before God to weigh out whether what they've learned in the
truth or,
scripture
is the
second
you know, whether maybe they have
thoughts: But
time.
they've got to, they've got to

if you
have that
JIM: David,
people helpless.
die, you're leaving your
MR. KORESH; Look, they're God's people.

JIM: But if --
MR. KORESH: I'm just an instrument,

JIM: Yeah.
okay?
M. KORESH: I'm just another human being, an

instrument, okay?
no glory thing. This
You don't understand. This

is life.
is not
JIM: But
word.
if you
live, you
can spread
the
MR. KORESH: I cannot. They'll lock me upin

the jail for 100 years. You know, they blame mefor
know. everything, you
JIM: But
the trial you had
didn't, didn't you get acquitted on

in 1980?
MR. KORESH: Look, we were innocent.

court session, you're not supposed to have a
In the
prosecuting attorney and anotherfriend on the jury.

-
And the two black guys talked to me later and said that
92
23 r
92 between
hung that. all the
that black
The other way through.
guy and
Chebaz phonetic
that I
sp.!, they
was innocent
jurists knew
JIM: But
they acquitted
Yeah. But
you, didn't they?

nothing like this
MR. KORBSH:
happened.
JIM: Yeah.
court, come on.
But you'llstill get
a day
in
MR. KORESH;
Look, I
know, and
I've also
known about talk like

chance to
money. Come this. Let's

think, okay?
JIM: Okay.
on. Jim, just say
let's, let's just give these people a
I'll tell do --
you what
I'm goingto let them all to
do. I'm going to
I'm, I'm going to
think, but your people
I'd like you to that, you
start
discussing with like you told me,
know, just
they're coming out of

w
there. And
I want
coming out
them to
get
their minds And I

there.
right,
that they're a plan

'
of there. out of
want you
to set
for them
to come
MR. KORESH:
Look, Jim
-v
JIM: Come M. KORESH:

JIM: Trust
on, buddy. - like

me now.
you said
--
MR. KORESH= - a
plan. Just
let me
lay here
and let
nature take
its course
with me,
all right?
l l I I 24
JIM: Yeah,
M. KORESH:
you. 92
but you
know, you know something?

be too much time for
That may
JIM: NO.
A MR. KORESH: But if you

then these people are
JIM: Listen,
move in too quick,
going to
Iwant
retaliate.
your folks to have a
chance in
life. And,
you know, you know how we were
yesterday, where we couldn't get anywhere, we didn't

seem to get anywhere until you and Istarted out. with to make some agreements about the children coming
MR. KORESH:
92 ,
That's right.
And like
Gary last
our plan
night, I
was, and
kept telling
him over
and over what
he didn't seem to
understand. So
then, all of a sudden, what happens is that all

and, you know, back and forth,
that all the children
JIM: Oh,
this
time, you know, we've been sitting and talking and,

and, you know, that's
hear on the TV why I'm -- You know, we hear on the, we
are out.
well, those TV --
MR. KORESH:
There is
such a,
there is
such a
screw-up in communication. That's why Ilet

to Daylind phonetic!
JIM: Oh, MR. KORESH:
Q
you talk
I know. You know?
JIM: But,
you know,
what I'm, what I'm
92 -
92 25 1 2
,trying to was going
say is
once we had an
agreement about
what
to happen,
you made it happen.

will, and And I
You know,
you've got a strong M. KORESH: Because the
what I'm saying -explained have decisions but what to you why. in them. I'm saying is;
children don't JIM: Iknow
it, but,
Iif
you could
make an agreement
there and
with your
you could
people that
-them what
them out
they're walking out of MR. KORESH;

to do.
92
I am not going
never will.
to tell
Ishow
I never
have and
of
a book
what God
teaches. Then
it's for them to
decide.
JIM: David,
these, these
kids need
their
pparents and the women?
we want Can --
everybody to Will you
be safe.
How about of there?

and
let them
come out
MR. KORESH:
Hey, haven't,
haven't Sita
them already
come out? JIM: Oh, yeah, but Imean, Imean come out
and actually
stay out.
MR. KORESH: that if they wanted

JIM: Well,
Yeah, but
the thing
of it is
is
to, they,
I,
they could. they feel

to.
I think
like they
can't because you don'twant them
M. KORESH:
now.
No, no,
no, no.
Let's stopthat
JIM: Okay.
Imean,
I think your
will is
so
l I l 1
92
26 ll 2 3 4 S 6
strong that
mean?
- and they love you so much that they,

you sent them. You know what I
they wouldn't go unless
M. KORESH:
Jim --
JIM: David,
woman with some children.
MR. KORESH:
give me
a sign
and send,
send a
Jim --
JIM: Give
me a sign.
MR. KORESH; -I'm not going

game.
to play
that
JIM: Come
with some children.
on, give
me a sign.
Send a woman
MR. KORESH:Jim, your psychology's really

rusty.
JIM: Hey,
policeman.
I'm psychologist, no I'm a
MR. KORESH:
psychologist. You be a policeman.
I know.
have
You're, you're a the best psychology to
have to
JIM: I'm a policeman,

all I'm trying to
hurt.
that's allI am.
And
do
is save some people from getting

That's what I
MR. KORESH: Okay, exactly.

want DO t?
to do.
Now, are you going
to give
us some time or
JIM: Oh,
yeah, I'm going to give you --
OO
27
Hey --
MR. KORESH:
Or are
these guys
going to
come
in here
and
--
JIM: No,
you've got the time,
buddy. You've
got it. AYou've the time. got Now, you're going tosee
y those vehicles, like
nothing else
I told
you, but you've got -Listen, are the, are the
is happening.
ymothers worried anything? _
about the
kids? Are
they upset
or
M. KORESH:
Aren't the,
aren't the,
aren't
the mothers
talking to
JIM: Yeah.
the children?
Oh --
MR. KORESH: out later, you know. JIM: Is Jay a
Jay is.
You know,
Jay may
come
mother?
Yeah, she's, she's the mother of
MR. KORESH:
Jenessa.
JIM: Okay. MR. KORESH: talk to them right JIM: Okay. now. Would you -She says she doesn't want to
MR. KORESH= And she

know.
might come
out, you
JIM: Um-hum. kids out tonight? MR. KORESH:
Are we
going to
get any
other
Well, I'm thinking about
it.
| 4 | w ,4 92 28
mean, you
we at?
know, what,
what are
we doing
now? Where
are
JIM: You're great, man.

Buddy. Do it, come on.
Hang in
there,
y A'MR.
to do it. Shoot.
KORESH: Where,where's van the at now?

I can get the van there if you want
JIM: Oh,
MR. KORESH:
get the van.
I'll send a couple
more out.
Go
JIM: All
M. KORESH:
it gets
p g
right. I'll
Okay. Well,
get the
van lined
a call
up.
when
give me
here.
JIM: All
right. You
line the
kids up
and
I'll callyou back. here. I'll call you

minutes.
Let's see, let me look at at quarter to eight,
my watch
twenty
MR. KORESH:
All right.
JIM: Is
that enough
time to
hug them and
kiss them,.get their coats,

have them ready to
MR. xonssm
and at quarter to eight
walk out?
Okay.
JIM: Buddy,
MR. KORESH:
I'll call-Man,
Bye, Jim.
you're great.
on me.
JIM: Thanks.
Hang in there.
Look, don't give up
MR. KORESH: I'm not giving up
on you.
' i
I 1
| 29
JIM: All
right. Hang
in there.
MR. KORESH: I'm just putting my

your hands.
children in
JIM: Hey,
M.
we're takingcare of
them, too.
KORESH: Okay.
JIM: And,
listen, if
you see
--
MR. KORESH: Hey, you know our phone, we

can't even call you
JIM: You MR. KORESH:
now?
can't? NO.
JIM: I've got to
give you
a number?
MR. KORESH: No. What
I'm saying is that
we
can't call anybody now. We asked you to open up some lines for
we dial
us. Now we can't call anybody.

three digits, JIM: Yeah.
MR. KORESH:
Every time
it goes
da, da,
da. I've got -Here.
Hey, listen,
Here's Steve.
JIM: I've got to line these cars

STEVE: Jim.
up and --
JIM: Hey,
Steve?
STEVE: I wanted to call you,
you know, like,
say, five,
third digit
ten minutes ago, and every time I get to the

now it, JIM: Oh, it's over, it's done. all right, right away. I'll fix it. I'll, I'll
get that
corrected
STEVE: Allright. Yeah, because he was

I |
<
wanting to
talk, I
did, and
out here. hey, my . I just
we were trying to
get
something worked JIM: Oh,
apologies.
STEVE :Okay JIM: I, I,
- We
had a
good
conversation. We're making a
lot of
progress. And
I've got to take
a break to set
up a car.
STEVE: Okay. JIM: And, and hang in there with me now.
STEVE: I'm -That'sthat I've been trying

4 to do.
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: I
f 92
want to.
JIM: Just
be patient.
I'm giving you my
word everything's okay.

STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Trust
STEVE: Okay.
me now.
Just hang
in there.
JIM: Keep
get everybody
everybody calm.
We're going to
through this. STEVE: I'm trying to do that.
JIM: You're a good man. Steve,

there.
hang in
STEVE: Okay.
-JIM:
eight.
92
I'll call you back at about
quarter to
| I 92
31
STEVE: Okay. JIM: And

fixed.
Thanks, Jim. get the phOme
then I'm going to
STEVE: All
1
right.
AIJIM: All right, see you.

STEVE: Bye.
iiii
JIM: And
he told
me he
couldn't dial
this
number. Did
you cheek
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
on that?
SPEAKER: Ihaven't checked
on it. tttti
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Steve? STEVE: Yes. Jim.
JIM: Hey,
how you
doing?
STEVE: Well,
call there.
Iwas
kind of
waiting for
your
JIM: Yeah.
up that car.
I'm sorry,Igot
tied up
setting
STEVE: Okay.
JIM:' I've got a STEVE: Oh,

JIM: Well,
car out
there that's ready. and ready?

water
it's already out there

no, it's, it's not at the
tower, but
I I
it's, it's just about,

a mile.
you know,
about an
eighth of
l I
OO
32
STEVE: About JIM: Um-hum.
an eighth Have you
of
a mile? kids ready? man, I mean,
got the -- Jim,
STEVE: We're a little
you know, again, but on the
we thought tell me
we were getting it if it's true or
worked out just heard us at, at
false, we
radio that
they're planning on hitting

which is in three minutes.
eight o'clock,
JIM: Oh,
not true.
You stay
with me.
We'll, we'll talk. Mothing'll happen. I'm serious.

STEVE: I mean, I believed you from --
JIM: Absolutely.
w 92
STEVE: --
the beginning.
JIM: Oh,
that's baloney.
I'm telling you, I
don't know where those

there and
people --
I think
they just
sit
make up stuff. They
make up stuff.
STEVE: I There was this --
know it.
Well, even
about David.
Remember back in '87 this crazy

Roden?
what's his name dug up a body.

JIM: Roden,
STEVE: They
JIM: Oh.
yeah.
said we did that.
STEVE: I
mean, it's incredible. I
mean, I
mean, the news is

that aren't
just ripping
close.
us apart
with things
even remotely JIM: Well,
I'll tell you what.
When we --
After we
resolve this
thing, you're going to
have a
I 92
33
92
| 4
chance to
clear all
STEVE: Well,
that up.
I hope
And I
so.
--
JIM: I
hope you
do because
it really
makes
me angry the way they try
to slander
you and
everything. And
are -trying to
it's wrong,
but, you know -of these people
STEVE: Well,
you know, a lot
they've having, you know, they're, they're think and decide what they want to do. You
know, there's a lot of them here that

and -JIM: Yeah.
are that way
STEVE: And I heard what he's said it before.

I
he had to say
and
And, you know, a lot

confused and understand
of them
-that. I
are --
they're so puzzled and JIM: Yeah. Well, I
really -
And I
sympathize.
STEVE: And they're saying that he's up and

walking around.
He's never moved.
That's balone
. Ev y ery
time you
--
JIM: No,
I'll
I know
he's never tell by
moved. his voice. I
STEVE: You
can even
ean, I don't -get I don't even knowwhere they

JIM: Steve, let me ask you something
got
C hat from.
B traight
-STEVE: Yeah.
92
34 l
JIM: --
straight up,
okay?
STEVE: Okay. JIM: I'm worried about David. I'm concerned
about him.
I, I
feel like
his wound him directly
is going
to get
infected. I'vetalked to
srsvn: Right.
about this.
JIM: I
feel like
he might
die. If
that
happens, what,
what are you going
to do?
do -to let
STEVE: Well, JIM: Are

me --
what I'm going to to, are
you going
you going
STEVE: Well,
I'm going to keep
on
communicating with you. That's why I wanted to, you

know, right from the beginning, right with the
children, right
want to
mind.
I 1
on through to see what these people

want to try to help everyone make up their
-- I
JIM: Yeah, there with everybody.

STEVE: Well,
but I
want you
to walk
out of
I'd surelike to.
JIM: I
I, I want to
mean, that's what we want to

and you he really want to -- This
do. And
save David
save David. is true.
STEVE: But
JIM: I
mean, let's, let's get down to the --
We'veto got get down to the brass tacks. You
know,
when I was in Tennessee, we used to say we've got to
92
35
1 see
2
3 JIM:
how the
cow eats
the cabbage
.
here, you
know.
STEVE: Right
I, I
don't want to dance
around with
4 you.
| v -1
I mean,
I am not -see nobody
I'm just a policeman hurt.
and I
5* don't want to
6
STEVE: Yeah.
7 JIM:
8 out what are
And I
you going
told -to do,
I asked
Dave? I
David straight
mean, Jesus
9 didn't commit suicide.

10 STEVE: Well, he doesn't want to do that.
11 JIM:
Yeah, but
I'm afraidhe's letting that
1 12
I I.
wound draw him weaker and weaker. 13 infection. He's going to get
He's going to get
an
where we can't bring him
E 14
1
back. He's going to get where we can't -STEVE: I mean, after all the
17 JIM: 18 STEVE: The guy's gone through All he's wanted to and love -- to show people
it seems
15
slander in
so --
the
E 16
world and everything he's gone through, I mean -do is speak and God's
I I
I 19
I
open up
20 going
what, what
in town.
to do,
bizarre as
I 21
l I
JIM: He'sgot a
chance to
make a difference.
22 He's got a chance

.have a chance. STEVE: Let
Jim? Pardon? background not
to make a difference
me ask him, do
Unidentified male
now and, and you

you want
voice in
1 23 ' 24
to talk
25 to
discernible.! He
said all
this
92
36
excitement's getting to him.

JIM: Hey, I wish
He looks pretty weak.

we could, I wish we could
fool all ,,reports on

in a
.
those news reporters and the attacks

_~
just --
with their just all get

really wish
and you all could

And, you know, I
group and walk out.
we could just get
this thing
resolved peacefully.
what he -- You know,
STEVE: Well, that's
~that's what they want to do, but they're, they're -,.Actual1y, the truth is
JIM: They're STEVE:
JIM: Yeah.
they're terrified.
terrified?
Well, yeah.
STEVE: I
,
mean, you but, you
know, a
person doesn't are.
want to
say that,
JIM: Yeah.
know, they
I understand.
STEVE: They're afraid to all the only the

or five
move. They've seen Not four
movement outside, three, we

are coming JIM:
you know, the vehicles. that another
heard on the radio

from wherever -- You --
Well, that
know, all
that
perimeter stuff, thing is inside. I

walk
Steve, it
really --
I, I
appreciate. and, and, and
your concern, but I'm telling you
it's nothing. This
mean, it's inside you

out, it's over.
David. If
together and
,-
you want to -STEVE: Well,
If you guys wanted to get

I mean, that's what the talk
37
f X
has been,
right, in JIM: Well,
the whole I know.
afternoon. But, see --
STEVE: You're just keeping
on saying
well --
And they're saying they're afraid to
make any move
wbecause of what, you know, everybody's listening to

radios and all that.
the
JIM: Yeah, though. The
that's a bunch of
baloney,
radios don'tcontrol us.
STEVE: I
know they don't, but, you know,
there are -and
there are many thingsthat we have

That, that's all baloney. my watch and it's two minutes And,
heard them saying that ended upbeing so, you know.

JIM: Yeah. look, I'm looking at
Q > 1
after eight.
Is anybody assaulting you?

STEVE: No.
JIM: It's not true.
It's baloney.I'm just
trying to
possibly can.
put a straight, you

STEVE: Yeah.
know, be as straight
as I
JIM: You
that level.
know, you guys are knowledgeable it's hard for me to talk

those
theologians and stuff and
on
I mean, I don't understand all
things. I
mean, I appreciate them, I'm a Christian,

STEVE: Yeah. You know, I would care about 'cause, you knowI
but you know what I'm saying. you whether you were or not,
I |
92
38
1 ieverybody
2 you
3
follows the
dictates of
their conscience
and,
know,
they try
to do it the
best they life and
can with what I don't --
they see, where they're at in this
.You know, I've never condemned or judged a person for
that. I~mean, one thing I have learned from the Bible,

it says judge not that he be not judged. So I don't
92 I 92
know what makes another person tick, you know. It's
not beengiven to me tolook at another and then say

they're rightor wrong or whatever.
JIM: Isn't, isn't,
isn't there teachings
also that sometimes, you know, youmake peace or throw down thesword or, you know,you, you love? And that's
what you guys are trying to do.
STEVE: Well, that -You
know, like, you
know, that's what -really have

1
That hasn't even come up, you

of issues, we
I'm
me. ~-
know. We've been talking about a lot

been, and
JIM: Okay.
sorry, Steve, wait
All right,
just a minute.
l |
a minute.
He's holl ering at
Okay. Hey, they're ready to sendthe car up. Would

you just tell -and maybe start getting STEVE: Okay. voices in
[sap]
ask Davidto pick what kids

them ready? Just a minute.
he wants
Unidentified
background not discernible.! -
STEVE: It's very
confusing to
know even what
> /-. *
39
l I
to do.
_JIM= Yeah.
STEVE: The
Well, look
mothers, You
-know, they're
standing there
scared even
-You
know, he,
he's been
saying well,
know, some know if
do you
of them
mind sending
are, are go along
your two
now and,
you
talking about now or
they don't know.
they should
what, you
y JIM:
Why don't they all

,
see, some
come in a group?
I'll guarantee -STEVE: Well,
of them
want to,
but
there's some that don't. And they're trying -know what I mean? JIM: Okay,
we -I 0
You
They're, they're confused. I understand.

move too fast.
And let's-Maybe
I don't
want to
STEVE: You
know what
I mean?
It just
happened yesterday.
was starting because --they were
That's why -And,

starting to
you know, there

calm down relief came
I'll tell you what,
the greatest
was when you started talking
to us the
way you were all
the way through and, and last night.

felt good
thing. And
I mean, everybody
and the whole
a
about it,
then with
they did,
Gary, well,
about you
you know,
there was
little bit
92
there, but
when you got back on the phone,

right on with it.
all these
we thought
we'd just continue

JIM: You
know, I've talked to
I ~_
commanders.
40 92 4
STEVE: But I'll tellyou the truth and,

know, it kind of freaked you know,
kids --
you
| I 92
us out,
though, about
those they wanted
lines, because,
to talk to their
they're parents,
JIM: I STEVE: --
appreciate that. and say come on out and, you know,
we love
you and
all that.
Some of them are
here saying
they wanted to talk to their, their folks yet. And, so

I mean, I didn'tknow what to say to them. That's why
finally we
leave these
get on
the phone and say well, can't you

for Well, let us. me ask you this,
lines open JIM: Yeah.
Steve.
STEVE:
Okay.
JIM: If,
if some
of the
people, some
women
and maybe some children, wanted to come out, maybe they
could getin a
their safe
tell you
group and walk out. I'll guarantee

could call you, they could
conduct. They
we're fine. STEVE: Okay,
I'm sorry.
I didn't want to
interrupt you
A
but there
right now.
is a
mother here,
she wants
to
send her
two out
JIM: Okay.
Let me
talk to
her.
STEVE: Okay,
just a
minute. What,
what's --
And Jamie?
I ,I 92 1 w
Talking to
of the
someoneelse.! Okay,
mothers that want to
there's
send each
two that
-- two
41
out one
right now.
JIM: All
right, listen
yeah.
-- Okay,
Steve.
STEVE: Okay,
JIM: Now,
A STEVE: JIM: Does
Just ask her.
let me
ask you a question.
Okay. that mother want to come

out ?
~ STEVE:
They're sittingthere talking,
you
know, they're
.not
l 1
down at the
want to
other end.
do.
I'm lookin g at
them from a distance

sure what they
and I, I
see them talking, but

--
I'm
JIM: I
don't -I mean, okay, listen
STEVE: You know, a person,
you know, I'm
waiting to see what they want to you know, you think through
l 92
do. we've told them, know, you chose to

't want it
it. You
come here.
This happened,
you know, we didn
to.happen, so, you know, they're all giving thoughts to

what they want
to do and, and, in
fact, we're kind of
waiting to
said and,
see what do
you want to do.

it all that -them all
That's why
I heard to be
what he
David, he's so tired of
you know, he wants
so freehand
to be able to
92 I l ,-
say well,
Well, them
okay, it is
listen, Steve, to be with their
or not and
we want them to kids. And be
JIM: safe and we want
David
told me,
now, he
told
me this many -- five times,

right.
okay?
STEVE: All
42
,1 i
1 ' 2
JIM: Now,
word to me.
this --
there's a guy
that's never
broke his
3 STEVE:
4
Okay. JIM: I don't care what the newspaper said, I
1 5
on I tcare
what the
radio says,
I'm just telling you time he told m e
6
17 I <
what Jim
something
Kavanaugh says, and every

he stood by it. Right. And he told
in there
come out.
a STEVE: 9 JIM:
10 someone
11 them
me that i
f there
was
who want
ed to come out,
he would
let
12 STEVE:
13 way.
That is
Okay. Now
of good faith and Just
Yeah?
-- That always will

, wso
be that
14 JIM:
hat I
m asking
is as
v 1 1
1 1 l
15 sign 16 STEVE:
17 JIM:
-a minute.
18 STEVE:
19 Brian and Jake, did
JIM: Oh,
Oh, Brian
they ever
Brian and
and Jake.
come?
Jake.
Oh, excuse
me,
20
21 STEVE: 22 Remember, you

23 got
I A
I guess not.
to us on that, cause
In fact,
the y ' re still
they were -and you never

-Ijust
-- we were talking to you -- all
back
24 found out they were

25 standing there waiting.
JIM: Yeah.
this time they've been
92
43
STEVE: I didn't know that. They're down at

the -or near the entrance even. .
JIM: Are
STEVE: Yeah.
they, are
they ready
now?
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Yeah.
I didn't even know that. They
said --
They told me they've been waiting all this

about it JIM: All myself. we were supposed to
-I
totally forgot
right. Well, right?
get those
two earlier,
STEVE: Exactly. JIM: Okay. STEVE: And
Well -you said --
1 w I l
JIM: --
why don't you do
this, Steve?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Since
get their two --
the other
mother was
anxious to
STEVE: Right. JIM: -put their coats on them --
srsvm All
I
right.
it with he said
he said
'
David, now. -- No,
--
JIM: Clear STEVE: No,

JIM: Okay,
K
I don't --
he --
STEVE: --
he agrees,
he says --
JIM: Then
I 92
put those four
kids together, and we
cause we were supposed to get two earlier
44
messed up.
'
STEVE: Those,
those two,
they're still
talking now.
They don't -- They're trying to

one with an older
figure
out should one send her two.

maybe sending a little what they're working on,
They were talking about

one. That's these two. said send
and they
And they're trying to

want to hug them JIM: Sure. STEVE: --
decide. You know, it's like they

hang on --
yet and
another minute
or two.
So --
JIM: They're good, they're good mothers.

Come on.
STEVE: Okay,
_ 92 x 92
so the
two are
ready. Brian,
how old is he?
How old is Brian? Did we give
Two years old. And you any information on
Jake, he's how old?

them? JIM: NO.
STEVE: Okay, Jake is nine. He's nine years

old.
JIM: Okay.
I
STEVE: Andthey're brothers to Chrissy and

to Scott
you.
that already,
you know, you have them with
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: Let me -- I'm going to try

,
to help
them get going here. I
guess they're, they're still --
92
A 0
1 Unidentified
. 2 discernible.!
3 UNIDENTIFIED
0
female voice in background not
Yeah? Which one?
FEMALE SPEAKER: David.
; .45
i_>
4 STEVE:
I
Oh, they
were wondering
what
5 happened,
6 more on the
how come they're notplaying that

radio.
message any
7 JIM:
,8
l
We did
play it.
A
Do you
have the
radio
on?
9 STEVE:
Yeah, they
do, they
do.
10 JIM:
11 played. 12 it,
1 13 ' 14
92-
Okay. We need the,

They didn't hear it the scripture message. the last
we need the
time we
message
played
UNIDENTIFIED MALE message played?

15 JIM: Yeah. Tell
SPEAKER: You
want the
--
Q 16
17 message played?
18 STEVE:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Can we get the

Jim.
19 JIM:
Okay, you've got --
Who'd tell? you
x 20 Okay,
1 21
okay, we're taking care of it.

STEVE: Okay, good.
K 22
23 you
24 STEVE:
JIM: They did play it. Idon't know, maybe,

know, you missed it.
Yeah.
I 25
,92 v I
JIM: But
is --
those
other mothers
the other --
there?
Ican
STEVE: They're over at
OO
' 46
I 1 1 1 2
see them.
They're little a distance Ican
away from me.
They're over there.

discussing it
see them talking and
right now.
JIM: Sit
the phone down and talk to
them,
and if
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 92
they want to
send them with Brian
and Jake,
four.
because we messed up, we'll, we'll -- you know, and

David said it's okay, then we'll take those
STEVE: I,
Ithink
he wants to keep on going
like he was. Isee him over

go right, right almost after.
here motioning, trying to

can
have these two get another two ready so that they

JIM: Yeah, okay. Yeah,
two by two's fine.
STEVE: Okay. Let's

two. Where are they at now?
-Okay,
let's get these

and Jake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Brian

STEVE: Where
JIM: Can you
are they?
--
STEVE: It
just said
on the
radio that
there's10 only children here and they alreadyhave

them, which
how many. There
is ~- Ibelieve
are a lot of
you're going to find

them.
We know that.
out
JIM: That's not true.

s'r:vs= Okay.
JIM: You
Okay, can we -STEVE: Okay.
guys told
me that
wasn't the case.
I 92
92
O
JIM: Let
Steve.
Q
I47
me check
on the
car. Hold
on,
STEVE: All JIM: Have
right. you got the car?
IUNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Yeah.

JIM:_ Okay,
STEVE: Are
are the
kids ready
to walk
to walk
out?
they ready
out now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER: Yes.
STEVE: Yes, JIM: Okay.
they are.
STEVE: Sita's right here.
JIM: All
right. Well,
here she
let me
is.
talk to
her.
STEVE: Okay,
/' N. SITA: Jim?
JIM: Sita,
SITA: Jittery,
how are
but --
you?
JIM: Listen,
on the radio is rubbish,
let me tell you

okay? You
something,
don't jittery be and don't scared. be All

SITA: Yes.
that reports
hear me?
JIM: The,
the -
You will
see some vehicles
out there.
I told
David and I, and I told
Steve and
they know that it's nothing, okay? Nobody's in coming

there. Now, I'vea got car at the - I'm going to send
it to
'
the water
tower right
now. then.
SITA: Okay,
we'll see you down there
1 JIM:
QQ
48
4 I
3 JIM:
4 the 2 SITA:
5I
Hey, listen,
kids?
Yeah?
let me
ask you
something?
Do you
want to
come out
of there
with
6 bring.
7 JIM: 8 wanted
9 SITA
SITA:
Hey, I
got,
Igot
lots of
kids to
to
Okay. Well,
come out could come
David said
out. Well,
anybody who
you ask him.
10 JIM:
l 92
11 SITA
children.
I already
Okay.
asked him and it's up to
me.
1 12
92 F '
13 JIM:
14
Right now
I'm concerned about the
92 I 15 SITA
Well, why
kids and come out?
I, Iwas
don't you bring the
-- your
16 JIM:
17 SITA
the first
one.
t18
19
92
and Angelica.
JIM:
Okay.
See, me,
I was the first
one. Crystal
1 1 4
22 92 I23 92 92 24 w
Right.
21
know, yeah. I
know, you, love
you're doing great. You're working with us. SITA: And,

those I love all those
you know, I was tempted -I

kids.
.92 JIM:
,2s 4
I I , 92 l I I I 92 I
I know. They
need you. These -Let
me tell you something, Sita, thesekids need you. They

need all their mothers. I wish you could look at -- I
mean, they're beautiful, these kids,
but they've got to
92 Q
r 92
92 2 1
difficult because,
do, you're telling me
you know, what you say you want to

you don'twant to do.
JIM: Well,
one, one more little
no, I
children in
didn't say that. Do

here? Is there one
I have
more child here? No, we, we already brought him in.

We're bringing another child
someone else.!
to talk to --
in? Okay.
of the
Talking to
children here
I have
another one
.
DAVID: Well,
stuff then.
get on
the ball
'
with that
other
JIM: Okay.
@u
Well, I'm going to
see what I get some
~-
DAVID: Here'sSteve. I've got to

rest, Jim.
JIM: Okay. hang in there with

DAVID: All
Hey, listen. me, okay?

right .
Hey, listen.
Just
JIM: Just
resolved.
hang in there, all
right? Hey,
we'll get your message out when this thing's all
1 I |
|
STEVE: Hello, JIM:

STEVE:
Jim. Hey, Steve?

Yes.
JIM: Let,
to work on a few
STEVE: Thank JIM: Okay.
let me call you

you.
back. I'm trying
things.
,92
92
OA
22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 I 92 20 21 22
STEVE: Thank
you. Okay,
iiiii
bye.
STEVE: Hello?
JIM: Hey,
Steve?
92STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: This STEVE: Yes. is Jim.
JIM: How you doing?

STEVE: Not JIM: Is bad. David there?
STEVE: Yes,
he is.
David, you
want to
talk
to Jim?
He wants to know what you're doing now?

JIM: Well, one thing me the I wanted to do of that is I line
wanted you where you're
to give having
phone number
the trouble.
STEVE: He wanted us to give
the phone
number
of the line we're having
trouble with.
Actually, all
of them, cause none of them are operating now, except

for one, the one you're talking to me on now. It's the
only one that I can call or you - and it's only to

you.
JIM: Okay.
could. "
Well, I
wanted you to give
me
92 23 1
24 92
those numbers, but I still need

STEVE: Okay.
to talk
to David, if I
The numbers - pardon?
Unidentified voice
in background now discernible.!
Q O
23
They just
said it
JIM: Oh,
on TV, that's there

really?
only one direct
line open and to you guys.
STEVE: Okay, so, the

5663.
first number
is 863~
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: We haven't been using that
one. We
didn't We -- don't have it plugged in, so I guess it

doesn't much matter, but
JIM: Okay.
--
STEVE: And bring a phone the next

also. And some cord.
time,
JIM: Let
me see what we
can do.
STEVE: Okay,cause this, this thing

poor. The
2662.
is
744
other number is a cellular
phone, is
JIM: Um-hum.
STEVE: And then we
have 7 -- or
8635252.
JIM: Okay. All right.

to give these to
All right,
I'm going
come to
the technical guys and --
"STEVE: And there's one other one,
think of it. The other oneis -- the onethat was cut

off by -- with Wayne was
what's Wayne's number? W
863 -- and I believe it's --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Five nine seven

nine.
92 1 92 /
92
'
24
STEVE: -5979.
JIM: Okay. Okay, I'll, I'll pass it on to
the technical
guys.
STEVE: Thank you much, Jim.
~J1M= But, Steve, I,

STEVE: We
whatever else --
I -you monitor or
don't even care if
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: -.because,
what we believe.
JIM: I understand.
you know,
it's to do
with
STEVE: Okay, JIM: But STEVE: Sure.

DAVID: Hello? JIM: David.
DAVID: Yeah.
good. talk to Just a David? minute.
can I
JIM: Hi.
got to talk about.
Listen, we've got a change we've
DAVID: All
right.
JIM: Okay?
anything, okay? with these
Now, listen to me
okay?
before you say

in the
'
We're having a change
field
tactical commanders,
DAVID: Uh-huh.
JIM: You
/I 92 1 1
know, because all the
agents were
shot and, you know,we're getting a lot of pressure.
y 2s
We don't want nobodyelse hurt.

here supporting the National
that yesterday.
We've the got FBI in

the state that, we police and talked about
us and, Guard. And
you know, you know
A DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: Okay. Now, the tactical commanders are
going to
move the
perimeter up.
DAVID: No, you keep them back.

JIM: Well,
what -the reasons
let me,
and --
let me,
let me
tell you
DAVID: I
JIM: No,
know what
David, look
the reasons
--
are, Jim.
DAVID: Okay,
_
you want
to kill
us, come
and
kill us,
Jim.
~ JIM:
No. Hey,
David, no,
we're -~this
is
not it.
Now, let
me tell
you why. let's stopplaying around.
DAVID: Jim, JIM: No,
let me
tell you
what we
did. Let
me finish. night they the barn,

got scopes.
Come on, give me a chance, okay?

DAVID: They told -- Gary told us all last
weren't around here. All out in the back, there are

come on.
the night
vision Out by
we saw them, we saw them down there digging in.

I mean, ~
snipers. They've do anything.
JIM: Hey,
DAVID: Oh,
y 92
they're not going to

Jim.
Q O
26
JIM: David,
they're not. I can
walk you
out
of there if you want out.

to do nothing to
DAVID =
And I can ~- nobody's going
you.
Hey .
A JIM: But let me tell you what's going to

happen, okay?We're going to movesome ofthese big
I
vehicles up
only, okay?
|
to the tactical position,

V
okay? Defensive
DAVID: No,
JIM: One
. 1 4 l 4 I 92 1 A
thing that's worrying the
commanders were all those people that were inthe bush

and all those people moving around there. They've got
these vehicles that'll protect their men. take the gun barrels off them. You guys have a lot
DAVID: So
We made them
There's gun nobarrels
on them, okay? You know, they have a big of the, you know,the troops want to
gun on
them.
of heavy weaponsin there

stay back then.
and some
be protected.
92 I 92
JIM: Well, but they, you know,they've agot

duty that --
DAVID: Look,
|
let's stay back, Jim.
Let's
1 4
< 92 I
get my kids out and we'll start talking

right?
again, all
going to
JIM: David, I'm afraid they're probably be moving before I can stop them.
DAVID: Well --
27
JIM: I
don't want you
to --
I want you
to
know they're not coming -- it's strictly they're taking

a position --
DAVID: Look,
we already
discussed --
you
already told methey were

gave them the okay.
JIM: Well,
going to do nothing until you

I say -when I say they're not coming. in there. They
So, like
that, I
mean they're not coming

DAVID: am;
they're moving up closer. last night.

keep the
were coming in close

everything I could to
JIM: Yeah.
I had
guys off
to do
of them.
Nothing is
happening except
they're justchanging positions and

don't want anybody to
you. They
truth. We
perimeters. They
in and bother
be able
to come
don't want anybody to

don't want
come out,
come out
that's the
unless we
anybody to
agree. And we haveset up -- we're just setting up a
defensive positionand nothing

attack.
progressive, nothingfor
DAVID: Who's firing guns?

JIM: We're
not firing
any guns.
DAVID: Jim, like I
say, I figured eventually
it was going
cheesing --
to get
to whereyou all was going to start
JIM: No, hey, we're not cheesing.

p 92 ~
DAVID: In your conversation. You're going
28
to take
another inch,
another inch.
JIM: No,
listen, I'm trying to
tell you
this
in advance Ito think
as a sign Iwas
of good
faith.
Ididn't want you is
tricking you.
I'm tellingyou this
going to happen.
DAVID: Yeah.
JIM: I'mbeing straight
up. You're not
92 I 1
1 v c 92 I 11 12 13 14
going to
I'm telling you
see the vehicles drive
up and
say Jim
feel
lied.
they're comingbecause they you know,

going to
they've gotchange their,

DAVID: They're property, in other words?
perimeter. And
come on our
--
1 | | 92
92
JIM:
going to happen.
Well, Idon't -- I'm not sure that's
"I5 16 17 18
DAVID: Well,
back.
get the
details and
call me
JIM: Well,
barrels to show you
DAVID: Come
JIM: Huh?
look, Ihad
there's no -on, Jim.
them take off the
gun
92 l
19 20 21 22 23 24 92 25
DAVID:
Isaid
come on, Jim. The
perimeter
is our property line, okay?

property line.
We wantthese guys off our

Well, I'm,
Ican't ~-
JIM: Okay.
to see what Ican do.
you know, I'm going
92 1
Q 1 i 92 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ll 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 1 29
JIN: Ican't make that promise, David.

DAVID: Okay, they, they want to kill us,
'they've the got big

JIM: Nobody
guns now.
wants to kill you.
-NDAVID: Hey -JIM: Nobody

DAVID: Jim --
wants to
kill
you.
JIM: Trust
- hey,
I'm not going
to let
them -nobody's going to kill

changing a position. It's
you. All
going to
we're doing is
lot of
look like a
activity. They're
coming in there.
not coming
in there.
Nobody's
DAVID: Then
property.
tell them
to stay
off our
JIM: Okay. DAVID: Or
Well, just there are
bear with going to
me. tears.
be some
JIM: No,
on, you can work with me.
let's nothave any
trouble. Come
DAVID: Yeah,
Jim.
come on,
you can
work with me
21
.22
1 23 24 25
JIM: Come
on, David.
DAVID: We've got a

children getting
JIM: Yeah.
deal going
now with
the
out.
I 92 I
DAVID: Okay?
Now, if
that don't mean
anything to
you or these
hotheads, then
we'll have to
30
deal with
that later
JIM: No,
in the
we want
judgment, won't we?

to get the kids out. We v
want to get everybody out. And
I don't want anybody to
get hurt.
A DAVID: Like I said, do

JIM: Not any of
what I say then.

Jim. Otherwise,
-
your people.
DAVID: Then do what I say,

come on in here and wipe us out.
JIM: No,
that's not going to happen.
Nobody's coming in there
to wipe you out.
DAVID: Get on the phone and call those guys
and tell them let's finish up ourplan and -- they've

got plenty of time, you know,to movetheir tactical
stuff after the kids are out, you know. You don't need
to be messingaround right now,
Boy Scouts.
like a bunch of little
JIM: Well,
David --
DAVID: Theythink they're mature,
they think
they're They've men. logical got thinking.They, they

think they love the innocent. All right. JIM: Well, David, let me ask you, how many
kids you won't tell me and I, I don't know how many

more --
DAVID: You're going to find out.
JIM: Well, I know, but why is that
a secret?
We're just trying to help get them out.And, and, you
31
know, I
can't give
them a time
frame. I
mean, what
the public from
they're saying is we've got to protect
stray rifle
fire, if
DAVID: The,
that would occur, and -the pub1ic's not even out here,
all right? JIM: Well, highway.

DAVID: We're JIM: Yeah, way out here. there's a lot of
they're, they're out on
that
but there,
people on
those highways. DAVID: Okay. JIM: Reporters. DAVID: So what is

in here
I'm telling you your time

and bust
--
limit that
--
you're going
to come
JIM: We'renot coming

in. We are not coming in.
in. We
are not
coming
DAVID: Well,
if you
keep getting
closer,
we're going to retaliate. have to come in,
And then you're going to way it is, Jim.
and that's just the
I'm sorry.
JIM: Well, David -'
' DAVID:
erratic finger
You're going to keep moving your

closer and closer to our rear ends, and
then finally
to slug you.
we're going to turn
around and we're going
JIM: Yeah.
C.
32
DAVID:
JIM: Yeah.
Imean,
I don'twant that
to happen.
DAVID: You
know,
Imean,
this is
a great
nation, but,
JIM:
like
Isaid,
Yeah.
it's not bigger than
my God.
DAVID: Now,
the whole
meanings of
what I'm
trying to
now.
tell you
in the seals
is I'm the little
guy
JIM: Um-hum.
DAVID: Okay,
you tried
to push you.
me.
JIM: I'm not pushing
DAVID: No, let me, let mesay your- Ijust

saw Robert
push me. you about
Gonzalez on
And you God who
JIM: Um-hum.
the TV,
you know.
remember, nations.
They tried
Itried to tell
to
did. But, judges all
DAVID: I'm the little

QuY-
guy, you'rethe big
JIM: No, DAVID: You Remember that.
I'm not the big know, the
guy.
Goliath, I'm the David. took five smooth
Remember, David
stones. And
we're the in fiith
seal now, okay?
JIM: Yeah.
DAVID: And
in with a rock. Think about
Goliath does
that.
get his
head sunken
JIM: Well,
listen, David,
I, I
don't want
33
you
to put
more into
DAVID: Hey
JIM: It's
this than
-not.
is happening.
DAVID: --
the same,
the same,
all right?
A JIM: Okay.
DAVID: You tell these guys to back off.
We're ones the that are edgy.Really we're not, but,

like Isay, if they want to keep playing around, then they'll find out what we've got, okay? g
JIM: Yeah.
Listen, okay.
Ijust
want you
to relax.
okay? Do
r 92
Call me if
DAVID: You what you
you see them moving.

call them and then you call me,
can, Jim.
STEVE: Okay.
minute.
Let me
talk to
Steve just
DAVID: Okay,
here.
JIM:
hello?
Iwant to explain it to
him. Steve,
STEVE: Hello? JIM: Steve? STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: Hey,
this
is Jim.
STEVE: Okay, JIM: Listen, Iwant to tell you, too.
Jim.
' and I'm --
now, I've told David
STEVE: All
right.
34
JIM: We're going to have a change in they

perimeter. This is -it's defensive, okay? Now, moving and you'll Just bear with me now.
their position and
you're going to see these vehicles see where they're set up, okay?
*STEVE: I'mlistening. JIM: And once they go to
stop, they're not coming STEVE: Pardon?
any closer? Imissed the last part.
JIM: I,
I said
they're not coming any
92 F
closer. Wherever
of the property?
you see them go and stop, okay?

be on the perimeter
STEVE: They're going to
JIM: They're going to

to set up a perimeter out there,
-- yeah,
they're going
now, I
okay? And,
told David,
these are like big
vehicles, three
vehicles
that will
here anyway?
protect an agent from getting shot,
okay?
STEVE: And what would an agent be doing near JIM: Well, so nobody goes in. we're, we're trying to You know all the get around
trouble we had
last night with those people

STEVE: No,
else.! '
JIM: Steve? STEVE: Yes.
in the bushes, youknow.

someone
I can't. Talking to
JIM: You know all that stuff
we had, people
35
in the
our men
can put
bushes and you guys-your

saw people.
an end
men saw people and

we
these vehicles
And, you
know, that'sone thing
to. When
these things,
move in, it protects

don't have guns on STEVE: Jim,
us and it protects
them. I mean,
you. And they
what you're saying, I
mean, it
that?
would sound
good to
a kindergartner,
you know
JIM: No. taken off shot, that's

there. STEVE: We
.Steve, trust just so guys got
me. We the agents some heavy
had the
gums
them. They're all. You
don't get stuff in
do?
JIM: Yeah.
I mean,
you know, assault
rifles
and, I
I mean,
mean, you
so --
know, that'd go right
through a
car.
STEVE: Just
a moment.
Unidentified voices,

property?
Jim, what part of
the
JIM: Well, I'm going to -I

on that pass the to find out, okay? word, tell
have to check
is
What I want you to do
everybody they're coming. When
they stop,
not going you call
that's where they'll stay, okay?

to move me. But
STEVE: I
They're
see them,
around. And
then when you in.

David. I
they're not coming

don't like this,
don't
92
36 /' 92
like it
at all.
JIM: It's, it's only three vehicles. STEVE: Well, what is the -there, there is
not a
good reason, a thing JIM: Well,

STEVE: No,
from our at this
perspective, why point of time. --
you're
doing such
it's for your safety

it's not.
It's not at all.
see ~-
Idon't see that.
JIM:
bloodshed, Steve,
Well, there's
and -you want to
already been
too much
STEVE: And
JIM: No.
cause more.
STEVE: Is
; JIM: N0. s
that the
idea?
STEVE: .Well, then why are you bringing such

things? JIM: No, no, we don't -
STEVE: You see what we're doing? We're
moving on, aren't we? We keep on moving out, and now

you want to bring kind of something so close. And you talking about? what, what vehicles are
JIM: Well, we've got -the reason we're doing it is we've got new personnel, we're changing
shifts. We've got other agents --
STEVE: You don't, don't - Jim, you don't

0
need to tell me why you're doing it.
I mean, it's
37
quite obvious
why you're doing it.
JIM: you saw all

STEVE: I
Well, no.
never did.
You rememberlast night

-
when
those men moving? ,,W_
~JIM: Well, I anybody moving like these snipers, whatever.

STEVE: I You -worked it
know, but your guys did, okay? We'regoing not to have there, that.
remember?
we're putting a stop to that.
~- whoever was out
We'regoing not to have

ended up believing you, each time
I took a
out even
little time
then.
and then we
JIM: Right.
that --
Remember todaywhen you told me

i
those men were at the fence? We're going not to have

End of Tape #8.!
v __ .~
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
TAPE #9
3/1/93
start tape
#9!
STEVE: Where did
they get
the command
to do
that,
the
order to JIM: Well,
do that? I don
officers.
't know. You know, so ~all of you were together on
there
are
so many
STEVE: I
this?
thought
JIM: Yeah,
we ar e. But
there's a lot
of
people hereand, you know, theymoved up closer than they should have, so we pulled them back. But these -STEVE: Okay, why don't you, why don't you --
this? We're working alongwith you on this.

JIM: Well, I kno w, but
I don't -- we
don't
want people around there on foot.

STEVE: The same
We don't -don't want you
goes, we
there. Do you want us to set some people up on the

edge so your people or ours don't any go -- It's the
same thing JIM: Yeah. Well
,you --
STEVE: Do
you un derstand, Jim?
JIM: Steve, I do. But, look, there's an advantage here for you, okay? That is -STEVE TO UNIDENTI
FIED PARTY:
What's the
advantage for us to
have three of the heavy vehicles
sitting right on the edge of the property? He's trying

to say it's our to advantage, because that way we won't
I
3
have peoplethat we see moving around andthey won't

either.
JIM: Hey,
Steve.
STEVE: Jim, you know, David's saying get

real.
JIM: You'll, you'll be able to

things.
see these
STEVE: Yeah, we could see a chopper.
We
could see what you pulled in the front.

where it vehicles
I don't care
is, when it's that close

are you talking about?
- What kind of
JIM: Well,
they're --
STEVE: Some kind of JIM: Yeah. It's
armored vehicles? what they call an

vehicle.
APC.
STEVE: APC, total armored
JIM: You can't shoot a bullet through it.

STEVE: I know you can't.
JIM: Yeah. That's, that's, that's we why

want to put it there.
STEVE: I'm sure, so that you

and --
can shoot at us
JIM: N0.
STEVE: -~
so forth.
JIM: There's no guns on

guns off
them. We took the

no --
You can look at
them. There's
STEVE: How many guys are going to be in each
92
I 92
49
have their do is
guys out waiting.
mothers. And David. Well,
I want
you, and
Iwant
you to
talk to
we've got to get

kids, because
these two
the car's
right now,
these two
SITA:
JIM: But want you to talk
Okay.
I want to Steve you to and David think about about some it and of the I
mothers coming,
and also,
you know,
some of
the kids
and -~ I don't want to rush

SITA: I want all
the kids concerned that out. David's
JIM: I,
wound and infections and
I'm just
--
I'm just worried
about him,
okay? And
~ 92
I think
he wants
to keep
going a
little his
longer than condition. I
I do
because I'm worried about you out of there.
can get
SITA: NO.
JIM: All
ahead and take those SITA: Okay. JIM: Okay, SITA: Okay, JIM: All
right, I'll tell you

kids now.
what, you go
Sita. here's Steve. right. Jim.
STEVE: Okay, JIM: All job.

,-
right.
She, she's doing a
good
STEVE: Yeah,
she
was getting
pretty broke
up
Q
I 92
I
50
right then.'
SITA: Yeah,
she loves
those kids,
man, Ican
tell. She
needs to be with her kids,

STEVE: She
though.
knows. She'sjust concerned
about some of theseothers, too. She wants to

encourage them, that's why, you know, she's talking to
some of these other JIM: Well, -- . Ifeel like, Ifeel like Sita
trusts me,
though.
STEVE: Well,
JIM: And
_
she does.
--
SITA: You know, she has

along. She don't know how definitely JIM: we would
these things. STEVE: You
anything like this.
said thatright
I
likes you. have done it without her or
Yeah. Well, she's been real good.
you.
Imean, you guys have
been great. It's
just hard
in
to work out
know, we've never been
JIM: But,
listen, we
have gotten - This
is -- the wayyou're and going thewaywe're working

together, we're going to, we're going to keeping on plugging on.
because people are getting
resolve it. to hard

and
STEVE: Well, you know,we're trying You know, it gets so

emotional in here
they're, they're scared, you know. A
lot of them are
.
51
terrified. I
JIM: Yeah.
Well,
Ican
understand that.
And Ithink you all
you, you
know, you may come to a point with David and you say David,
when you
get together
know, wewant to go out andwewant to

group. We are a group. We are
of them
go out as a
what
-here, that's
STEVE: Some
they're talking about wanting to do.

JIM: Yeah, Imean, we're one people, we
want to
stay together
and we want
to all
come out,
you
know. You'll be saving his life, man, you'll be saving his

him more than anything,
you and me, you love the
I'm telling you

Between
life.
Imean, I, Iknow you love

guy. Come on.
between you and me.
STEVE: Well, you

Ido. You know, I --
know, I,
Ilike
everybody,
JIM: Yeah,
STEVE: Well,
but you
love that guy.

him. Ihave a
Iappreciate
great, you
know, Ido,
JIM: Imean,
Ido
love the guy a lot.

that guy. Come on. I
you love
It's not just like

deep love for this
a, a
guy.
friend.
Imean, you've at got

though, that
STEVE: Oh, you know, Ihave,
for a lot of people, Ireally do. You know, I mean, he, he's shown me a lot and shareda lot and, you know, Ihaven't - I've seenwhat he'sbeen sayingand, you
52
know, I've had to wrestle with

it's an up and down thing
JIM: Well --
it myself
and, you know,
for sure.
But --
STEVE: Yeah,
let's keep on working
on this.
I mean, there's a greater

something -JIM: Steve STEVE: Yeah? --
satisfaction to
accomplishing
JIM:
think about.
-I
want to
give you
something to,
to
STEVE: All
right.
JIM: Okay?
I don't know if I can do this,
r k
but and
what I'm going to do is I'm going to go back there

talk to some commanders.
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: These
got
you
guys are in here,
man, they've
scrambled eggson their hats and generals stars,

know.
STEVE: Right.
'
JIM: And
21
conversations.
I want
to tell
them about
our
;'
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And
possibility now -STEVE: Okay.
I'm going to see if, just
JIM: Okay,
the possibility
now, we
92
S3
1 understand?
2 STEVE:
Okay.
3 JIM:
'Cause don't I want you
to get mad if,
4 if
6 STEVE:
Ican't work it out. That if I was ableto get I

Um-hum.
5 mean a major, major broadcastof your word out --
B about the radio station in Dallas. I'm about talking

9 some major thing.
10 *STEVE:
7 JIM:
I'm talking about -- I'm talking not

_
Okay.
11 JIM:
12: you all --
Would you all come out? I
mean, would
13 STEVE:
Can I, can Iput it to David, because

about?
-Okay. Imean
14 that's what he's been talking

15 JIM:
16 STEVE:
Imean, even tonight-- Whatis it,
17 it's Monday and what about --Is it

18_ of Ted Koppel or something?
a possibility maybe
something that would
19 JIM:
20 be dynamic.
I mean something,
Yeah.
21 STEVE:
22 JIM:
23 to
' 2 4 1 92
I mean, you know, I'm -- not You'd have

let us work out the, the details, but -srsva = Right.
25 JIM:
-- it's just a possibility that --
Don't a lot put of things on meIcan't deliver.
l l
.
54 4 v
STEVE: Yeah, I understand.

JIM: You know, Ted Koppel and all these news
stars, you
know. You, will be
you leave
it to
me to you, if
get we_can
something that work it out.
acceptable to
' s'r2vs= Uh-huh. Well

JIM: You know, maybe
-something that's more,
you know, that? I people who
Ted Koppel, mean, I
you know, watch --
I mean, to get
who's watching it to the
need to
are religious.
STEVE: Well, let me mention it to him, at
_least, here.
JIM: Yes.
Okay, let's see, did
-- Steve?
STEVE TO KORESH: He's not promising

anything, he doesn't know if he can even do it.
or
If
it's possibleif
the best
he could
put you
possible --
in touch
with the,
like the
news coverage
I mentioned
Ted Koppel --he says would

together and -MR. KORESH:
92 1 1
you as a group
come out
Can't do
that.
STEVE: Well,
he's saying
he can't do that
because he wants them

every one of them, I guess able to them, you
to have the choice,

and he own without all the
you know,
to be of -Some rest.
don't He wants them
<
move on their
know, they'rescared and
,.
JIM: Yeah.
Well, look,
maybe you can talk
92
55
to him,
you know.
STEVE: Yeah.
JIM: I think it would
_
be something real
positiveAand, you
concerned. And
treat his wounds.
know, real
positive for
everybody
we'd get you out
safely, we'd get t
STEVE: Well,
he was
wondering there
couldn't
be at least a line openedup back to the radio or

something. -
JIM: Well,
STEVE: Could the kids, could you am. Well,
try to --
you know, we can work on that.

you? While we're moving with do that? 1-11, 1'11 go check on it. 1'11
STEVE: I can tell
mean, you
know, Alex,
you know,
you
the guy's not a,
a guy
that's given to
positiveness over fine, you

or whatever.
JIM:
religious_things anyway. he wants to ask his
So that's tough questions

V
know, if
Steve.
.STEVE: Yeah?
JIM: The
where's the kids. Have
commanders are -- they're asking me

they left?
' STEVE: I don't - Just a minute, let me find

out, because
left?
she's not here any
longer. Have
the kids
.
left?
JIM: Send
them up
to the
water tower
now. the kids
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER: Have
STEVE: Okay.
Yeah, they
--
End of Tape #9.!
<
[1
I
x |
l 1
r~ 92 I
92
Q Q
C
'u.s. DEPARTMENT op THE TREASURY
BUREAU or ALCOHOL, TOBACCO a FIREARMS
14
15
TAPE #1oA
3/1/93
92
small child ren!
crying in
background of it is. going good
most of
tape!
STEVE: Really, JIM: It

to go good.
is. It's
and it's
going
A STEVE:
I 92
It feels but -I know.
like being
on a
-- up
and
down on
waves here,
JIM: Yeah,
STEVE: Should
you going to call me
I call you
back or --
back then
or are
JIM: Tell you what I want to do is just

get -~
STEVE: Pardon?
JIM: I to just tell you
want to we got
just get them safe.
the kids
-- I
want
STEVE TO UNIDENTIFIED PARTY: work on

line for
whatever. JIM: Steve?
He's going to getting a

or
that. He
you there,
said he's going to

you know, with the
work on
radio station
STEVE: You couple of these guys
know there is
one thing.
that haven'tmade up
their mind,
they're, they're saying there are that they, that they
guys in camouflage They've got
see them right now.
like brush
and stuff
stuck in their
helmets. They're
the
about
in camouflage,
property. You
they're, they're positively on

know, we, we -You know,
you said
92
3 those --
JIM: Okay.
STEVE:
there? JIM:
-those
kind of
vehicles being
Yeah.
STEVE: Well, we were going along moving with the kids. and, you
that -
Okay, you, know, the, are they?
you said the --
it,
we're what
But who
I mean,
are they
had control
doing there?
over these
You know, Ireally

vehicles.
thought you
JIM: You
movement, Iunderstand
know, there'sa lot

that.
of perimeter
STEVE:
Imean
that's thekind of
thing
that
makes some
be, you
of these people
nervous. They
don't want to
and
know, they'rewondering what'sgoing on
they're afraid to
kind of like almost
move. A
frozen.
lot of
them are sitting here
JIM: Yeah,
You have my word.
STEVE:
Iknow,
Iknow
but nobody's coming in.
there's perimeter --
Yeah.
JIM: --
people, Steve.
I,
Iknow
there is.,
STEVE: What are they

and all
92
doing on
the property
that?
JIM: Yeah,
I'm not making a secret of
that.
But I guess we've
got to,
you know, we've got to kind
of, like
I said earlier,
you know, get more toward the
4 92 92 92
brass tacks,
and that STEVE: Well,
is -that's what we want to do, but,
you know, I mean, you did

wouldn't be on the the others would be
JIM: Yeah.
tell us,
you know, that they

you mentioned the truth. where
property. And and, and
you told
STEVE: So those guys are where JIM: Yeah,

with those commanders.
I, I'm just wondering they're atthere. I'm going to have
why those,
to get
back
STEVE: Can
you?
JIM: Yeah,
back --
I will.
I'm going to have
to go
STEVE: I,
I really
believe it'll
make it
easier if
you don't -- if
there's no one like
that.
There's going to be people here that are
going to
be
feeling much more safe and, and -- I know, it's night, they
They're, they're scared.
' JIM: I know. STEVE: Okay.
mean, cause, you they up being.
don't know what's going on,
don't know where these people might end
Look, here's what --
JIM: Here's what we're going to

STEVE: All right. '
have to
do.
JIM: As
I'm going to
92 1
soon as we get these kids

and talk to these
hooked up,
go back
commanders --
92
STEVE: All
right. Okay.
92
JIM: -swsvs :
JIM: And,
about that perimeter motion,

Right .
and some of these
okay?
issues we've
discussed.
STEVE: Right, JIM: I've got to
bunch of them in here.
A
okay. round them up. There's B
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: And --
STEVE: And
call me
back then?
JIM: No,
because I
want to
hook these
kids
up, okay?
And, and,
and, and
David said
that
he wanted
to keep
the kids
srsvs :
coming out.
Right .
JIM: And
you've got these other Jake are
two, Chrissy and
and ~- You've got Brian and

you've got Chrissy and
STEVE: Yeah.
coming out
Scott.
JIM: So
got Henry here, okay?
what, what
I want
you to
do, I've
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: He'sbeen with

STEVE: All right.
me all
through this.
JIM:_ Okay?
doing everything, okay?
Helping me,
setting up
the car,
.1
92
6 1 STEVE: Yeah. "S
2 JIM: 3 he's golden, okay?

4 we've worked out
He's personal with me. We've worked every -stands.
I know
the guy,
Everything
A STEVE:
Okay.
6
7 lchanges
8 with
JIM:
to the,
Okay, he's not going to make any

you know,
knows all
he's going to try

the agreements,
to work
he sat and went
you. He
9 through
10 STEVE: 11 JIM:
12 STEVE:
everything.
'
Okay.
Okay?
Yeah.
13 JIM: 14' okay? And I
And he, want you
he really to just
is a
good fellow, him on the
talk with
15 mechanics
16 then,
17 okay?
18 STEVE:
of getting
and then,
Chrissy and
just to
Scott out,
continue with
okay? And
it,
you know,
Yeah.
19 V
JIM:
While I
go try
to work
on these
20 commanders.
21 positive.
As long
as we're doing this,
I mean,
it's
22 A STEVE:
23 JIM:
Okay.
Okay?
24 STEVE:
25 here and talk
Is it
with them
okay if
then?
I get
off the
phone
JIM:
Okay, wait.
There'svehicle a
E.
92 7
1 approaching.
2 STEVE 3 JIM: 4 92 STEVE and-
:Okay.
You know --
:.1
tell you,
I'm so weak I'm standing
5 here 6 JIM: 7 STEVE 8 JIM: 9 STEVE 10 JIM:
Just hang :Okay.

Listen -:I'm tired.
with me
one second,
Steve.
-- what
to Henry
know, David
a mind to.
I want
you --
After, after
you a break, come out if
you
but, he
11 talk
12 you
13 has
14 STEVE
a while, and can convince
he'll give everyone to
:
to them.
Well, you
know, that's what he'sbeen
v . 16
15 saying
He again
said to
these people, And like
he said right
look, you 17 now

18 19 JIM:
know,
he's alreadytold them.
he's laying back because
he's, he is, you
know, I'm
telling you
he can
hardly talk.
Yeah.
20 STEVE
= He but he
JIM:
mustered up
what he
could to
talk
. 31
92 22 23
with you,
is tired.
Well, you,
you've got to work

y
with him,
w do now.
you've got to STEVE
24 I , 25
Well, that's
to do.
what I
need to
That's what
JIM:
I wanted
Okay. Let
me just tell you
we've got
92 | I
0
8
rI 92
the kids
--'
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: --
and then
you can
work out
with Henry
just
a time
to, you
know, to
keep bringing
people out
and, yousknow, the kids anyway. Trust me, Steve, Henry

won't letyou down now.
that you couldn't trust. STEVE: Right.
Iwouldn't give you
anybody
JIM:
92
Imean,
the guy's first-rate, okay?
STEVE: Okay.
JIM: Everything okay? Okay, the cars STEVE:
he says are there.
right down
the line,
5' L
are
l
Okay.
JIM: The
there. You
commanders are
telling me
the cars
okay?
STEVE: Yeah. there, you

and -| I 92 v :
Oh, I'm getting tired. over the
There, place here
know, there's people all
JIM: You
know --
Okay, the
kids are
out?
You know, you guys talk about

there.
it. Nobody's coming in
STEVE:
Okay.
JIM: You'vegot my
word, its
solid, it's
1,000 percent absolute, okay? '

STEVE: Okay.
JIM:
Iknow,
Iknow that everybody's
9 7 92
skittish, but, kids and

the radio,
you know, we've just got to -- What are they
work on the saying on
we've got to let

10 kids? STEVE: Yeah.
Wait. Indiscernible
voice
in
background! David,
hit us tonight, he says.
he believes
that you're fixing to
JIM: No,
is not true.
we are
not fixing
to hit you.
That
STEVE: I
mean, here's,
here's this crazy
radio again,
getting that
you know.
information?
Imean,
where, where
are they
JIM: You
rubbish. I 92
know, that
is baloney.
It's
. STEVE:
the way and to
The news media

back way off, much
was told
to get
out of
than
farther back
what they
are even
now. Why
is that?
JIM: Nobody's coming in there. percent absolute true, okay?
A thousand it's
guarantee. I'mpromising you, kids? Okay.
Do we got those
STEVE: Yeah.
Steve?
JIM: Let
me check
here. Hold
on a
second.
STEVE: These guys are being told to move

back a half-mile
' JIM:
more even for safety.

Okay. I'm sorry, for
Safety of
what?
Right now
what?
STEVE: We're listening --
on the
news all
/ 92
the press
is, is
being told
to move back
Q O
10
half-mile more for their

talking about?
own safety.
Oh, well,
What are they
JIM: Yeah.
what they're doing is
they don't want them in any

down our backs.
of the
- They've been
crawling down our backs, all those reporters. Crawling

STEVE: well, their comments are, you know,
for safety,
B18311 , WOW -
that they
don't get hurt and so forth.
JIM: Oh,
yeah, but
that's not - That's
normal. We don't want them there.

trying to get them back and clear the
I mean, they've
road. It's
raced in real fast early and, you know,now we're just
nothing,trust me.
to -Tell you
And it means nothing. I'd like

what, I'd like to move them back to neck.
Arkansas, they're such a pain in the

STEVE: I suppose.
JIM: And the policemen are just glad, you
know, yougo out and the lieutenant says get rid of all
the reporters.
no big thing. Okay,
STEVE: Yeah.
What doyou think the butt back a mile,

look --
policeman does? so don't it's
Tries to kick their
JIM: -
I've got -- Hold
on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We've got the
kids. They're on their
way back. We have another car
OQ
11
in to
pick up JIM:
two more. Okay, we've got the kids.
STEVE: Okay.
'
JIM: They're
safe.
A STEVE:
Okay.
on the way back here.
JIM: They're
STEVE: Canyou -- Can I get off

and then have
the other two. JIM: All
the phone
them call
_ right.
again? And
we're workingon
STEVE: I'm going to

to these mothers.
go talk
-- try
to talk
JIM: Okay.
STEVE: And away. 'Causeright now
try to
get them
going
then right If I
they're trying to decide.
could encourage
them somehow.
Hello, Jim?
JIM: Hold
STEVE :
on, hold
Okay .
on a minute.
JIM: Hold
tell me something STEVE: All [gap]
on. They're,they're going to

from the right. car.
JIM: Okay,
what, let's --~ STEVE :
I'm sorry.Okay, I'lltell you
Okay .
12 r s
JIM:
-can
we take,
thanks.
take
a break?
STEVE: Oh,
JIM: Can
you --
STEVE: I'm going to

down here
actually kind
of lay
JIM: Okay. STEVE: in just a minute.
JIM: Take
STEVE: Yeah.
able to. I'm still
a break.
Well, so
Can you call me

far, I
here?
haven't been
I tried
not able
JIM: Okay.
to call
to get
you about
out.
10 minutes
ago and
STEVE: What do you think? Is

I
it --
Do you
think --
JIM: All STEVE: All

JIM: Okay.
right, hold right.
on, let
me check
on it.
STEVE: When,
when should
I call
you?
JIM: Have
someone else.!
you got
4 g
that set
Steve --
up? Talking
to
Okay, listen,
STEVE: Yeah. JIM: -you pick
up the
phone --
s'rr~:v.-=3 Right = .
JIM: -set it to
and I'm going to

number.
have the
technician
ring my
I,
92
STEVE: Okay.
You mean like right
now, just
O
13 r 92JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: STEVE JIM: H18. STEVE
to try
it? You want If you

Yeah.
to try want.
it right
now?
I mean,
would that
be the hang up.
thing or
--
Yeah. Let's hang up, Okay.
Just leave
All right.
it hang
up for
15 seconds.
And then
pick it
up and
see if
you get
Okay, I'll try.

* ** 1 Q
I 92'
STEVE HENRY STEVE 92 HENRY: STEVE HENRY STEVE HENRY: STEVE HENRY: STEVE HENRY: STEVE
Hello?
Steve? Yeah.
This is
Henry?
Yeah.
Henry.
Oh, okay.
Did you
Yeah, I
Henry, it's not working.

dial?
did.
Don't dial. Just pick

Oh, I see.
it up
and --
- just Just --
hold it. Okay.
/ 92
92
O
F 92
pick it
O
14
HENRY: You
up and just hold
don't have to dial

it.
at all,
try to
just
- Can I
STEVE: I
try it again?
A HENRY
STEVE
see. Okay,
let me
Sure.
Okay, thanks.
iiiii
I'll call you back.
STEVE HENRY: STEVE HENRY STEVE HENRY ,92 STEVE
Hello?
Hello, Steve?
Yes.
This is
Henry. are you are you doing? doing?
Henry, how Good. How
Well, I
tried to
call you
back but
guess it
didn't work.
HENRY: Okay.
We have the kids
here, but
just before
are going
we get to the kids, we have the APC's that

to be moving in.
the which?
STEVE: The,
HENRY:
general perimeter
about that earlier?
The carriers
of the
that are
moving into the
area. Remember, we talked

three here or
STEVE: Aren't there already

something?
HENRY: Well,
those, those
are the
ones that
we talked about, but they have never

92
been -- they have
15
never moved into position.

into position
that -
They're going to be moving

want to let you know that so
now. I
STEVE: Okay. a HENRY: Okay?
STEVE: Yeah.
are they called?
HENRY: APC's.
They're moving three --
What
STEVE: --_APC's into position
now that
they
had mentioned, which they hadn't done yet, Talking

someone else.!
to
don't
HENRY: But they have no --
Yeah, they
have the, they don't have the capability

STEVE: Okay. HENRY: Okay? STEVE: Okay.
to shoot.
HENRY: The, removed, so
the cannon and be fine.
the muzzles
were
everything should
s'rsv.=:= Okay. Unidentified voicein

background not discernible.!
and we have the kids -HENRY: Okay,
STEVE: It's not Jim.

to Jim then?
Henry, what
happened
l HENRY:
1
He is working on -- I'm not sure

of our brass on working out some of
exactly what with the
he's working on. He's working with the,
-some
92
16
the details.
to try
people that
What we'd like to

bringing kids
to come are ready STEVE TO
try to do
out and
out.
is we'd like
any other
to continue
UNIDENTIFIED PARTY:
Okay. S0
they'd like to continue

others that want
brass, I don't know
bringing the kids out and any

He's talking to the
in Unidentified voice
to come out.
about what.
background not
discernible.! wants Jim here, I to give guess. . Is Jake -- I have Jake here, him a call as
STEVE: He soon as the van is HENRY: Okay.
or Jacob.
STEVE: Okay.
HENRY: Who would Jacob be talking STEVE: Who would Jake be talking Jake there, female voice of course, and little
to? to? He has
Brian. Unidentified
in background
not discernible.!
[gap]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Jake? HENRY: This is Henry. Who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Can I have

Jake, please? _
HENRY:Yes. you
a second.
certainly may. Hold
on just
JAKE: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Hi.
Ilove
92
92
92
17
1 you.
I love
you. Tell
Brian, okay?
Tell Brian
I love
2 him,
3 the
okay? I've got to go. Put

phone.
the other
guyback on
I love
you. Tell
Bye.
me, tell
me you love me.
4 JAKE:
S A
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Bye.

Hello?
6 HENRY:
7 UNIDENTIFIED
8 back
9 HENRY
10
FEMALE SPEAKER: Put th guy

:
on the
phone
Huh?

Hello?
11 HENRY:
12 [gap]
13 HENRY: 14
15
Hello?
[gap]
HENRY:
Hello?
16 STEVE:
17 HENRY: 18 STEVE: 19 then or --
Henry?
Yes.
92
Jim
So is
getting back on the phone

1
20 HENRY:
Well, not
to some of
just now.
our ~ -
He's, you know,

.
21 he's talking to,

22 STEVE:
23 24 25
Well, can
you have
him call
bank as
|
soon as
he's ready then, because HENRY: We're ready now.
the next
two --
If you'reready to,
tose
to send
two other
people now,
now.
I'll, I'll work
arrangements right
I 92
I
/ 92
18
STEVE: Well, that's David what ishoping,

that, you know, to try -that's fine. We'll work it HENRY: Okay, right now.
A STEVE:
All right .
you, are you ready to send them
HENRY: Are
right now?
STEVE: Well, want to or -talk to Jim about
A
he mentioned the next -- What, did you two that you have deal going guess.
talk to
Yeah, he says him and Jim's got the keep on talking with
I'd like to -
and he wants to
Jim, I
Can I
HENRY: Well, him for just a second?
STEVE: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
He wants
Hello?
to talk
to yow.
HENRY: How
are you
doing?
MR. KORESH:
doing. HENRY: How
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Um-hum.
Kind of
weak. How
are you
boys
do you
How do
feel now?
I feel
~
now?
MR. KORESH: Just a HENRY: Okay. is we'd like to
little pain. do, David,
What we'd like to as we
continue working
were before.
We'd like to continue

as best as we
bringing out
additional children,
that we had
can, with the
same agreement
19
before. And
everybody has you know,
we'd like to work,

a concern
if possible,
you. We taking care
you know,
feel that, of
here about
that you'renot really
yourself. We
don't want anything to

to consider
everybody to
happen to you.
yourself.
we want
We'd like for you

We want
coming out
come out,
everybody to to give
concern to,
come out of this
alive. We
don't want you
up, and we feel

to all of us.
that you
are. That'sa great
MR. KORESH: Well, like

you know, I told Jim to, to look
I was
into that
telling Jim,
Bible. I
told him to look into Revelation4 and 5. I

to look into those seals. Now, if you look at
told him
the, the
fifth seal,
if you
look at the
sixth seal,
if you
look
into Isaiah 13, if you look in Joel 2, if you look into

the back
been foretold.
of Nahum, what's fixing to happen has already

I teach seven seals.
Now, whatever
that means,
you know,
I'd like
to talk Bible, sit
with you
guys in
full. I'd
like you
to grab what
down and follow me have foresaw. But I
word by word, see
the ancients
And that
way we'd have a you know,
better understanding. most of
realize that,
you are not ready
for that.
You've got your
own way of doing things.

HENRY: Well, one of the
~ A
concerns that we
have, you know, that I feel
that you may have is you
20 mentioned
earlier that
fa
you felt
that people
that everybody
were
has,
calling y
may in
whereas i save your
ou a cult leader, okay? If you giveup, that

ct be the impression
f you continue to life and

impression that
fight in
terms of trying to
continue to
will be
lead your people, that's

created. .
not the
MR. KORESH: Look --
HENRY: You've been a family person,

And your family -_
okay?
MR. KORESH:Oh, I'm definitely a

person.
family
And
alive.
HENRY: And your family

everybody
r 92.
needs you.
of this
wants to
see you
come out
MR. KORESH: Look, Henry
--
HENRY: Everybody needs you.

need you,
These people
listen to
the kids
need you.
MR. KORESH: You're not going to

me, are you?
HENRY: I
will listen
to you.
M. KORESH:
HENRY: Yes,
Okay, you're listening now?

I am.
MR. KORESH:Okay. The event that

fixing to
a governm
you're now
an
witness is
mpire called
HENRY: Um-hum.
you're fixing to see a government,

-See, there was Babylon.
ent that'sbeen blessed
ancient e
92
21
MR. KORESH:Land of the Chaldeans.

before Babylon ruled the then-known world,
And
God had a
people that
them laws
he brought
and statutes
out of
Egypt and God had given

unto Israel,
and God had stated
which wasacult because they had one leader, Moses,

and one righthand man, if they Aaron, and will keep God says his laws If they
the nations
them.
and~
promised that them the
he'll make break his

and the
head of
all nations.
laws,
nations
he'll scatter
of the
them amongst
rule over
heathens will
So for forebores his

Israel became
many, many hundreds of finally, the

the heathens.
years God days came

So God arose
people. But,
worse than
when
prophets such
as Isaiah,
Hosea, Obadiah, you know,
Malachi, Nahum.
Zephaniah, Habakkuk,
these prophets,
And God foretold in these prophets how that they'd be

scattered amongst the nations. In the Book of Daniel,
Daniel was
he was
shown, while
under the
of the
Chaldean captivity,
earth that shall
shown that
the nations
rule over
image, and silver, belly
and part
God's people will be

the image of brass,
of clay.
symbolized as
head of gold, arms
one great
of iron
.
will be
legs of
iron, feet
part of
And Daniel
says to
the king,
Nebuchadnezzar,
the highest Daniel says
ruling position thou oh, King, of
of the
land in that of gold,
day, and
this head
C
after thee shall arise
thee, and yet a third
fourth kingdom,
the whole world.
A HENRY: Um-hum.
C
22
another kingdom inferior to

kingdom of brass. And then a
shall cometh terrible, it
dreadful and
MR. KORESH:
And then
there shall
be a
kingdom that shall be

and partly broken.
at the
ten toes,
partly strong
up under the
So when Rome split
nomadic kingdoms,
it fell
into many
different kingdoms.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:We knowit as Europe.

Daniel goes existence, he stone, came had gold the chaff stone is
talks about.
Now,
is still a they as in
on to
explain that to say the image
while Europe
goes on and smote
indiscernible! behold in the feet and
and silver of the
and brass and summer threshing of which

about
iron, was floors. Well,
all made this
the subject
It talks
the Book
that which
of Revelation
must be
hereafter, that end of the world,
God will
one day
in the
future, in his throne in
the
shall come
and sit on
heaven, and
there'll be one question The question is who is worthy
asked in to open of God.
heaven. this And to
book? The
book is
in the
right hand
lose these
seven seals
thereof, scripture
that no man in
clearly
on earth
teaches Christendom,
heaven nor
neither under
earth was
able to
open and
he looked
92
-_
23 thereon. HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORBSH:
But the
lamb, the
lamb is
symbolized as
a lamb
with seven
eyes and
seven horns.
You know, God creates things in

HENRY: Um-hum.
seven days, doesn't he?
MR. KORESH:
knows what that book
Okay. There's only one

teaches. But for the
many who
sake of
humanity, the in this

the seals,
acid
test revolving around Christ

is witnessed
around the in heaven,

is a man on a
subjects opening
white
book revolve
and what
horse,
a man
on a red horse,
the altar
black and
pale. Dead
of their
souls under
described to
God because
blood that's been shed, and then the time whenthe sun
and moon and stars part as a scroll will be and the darkened, the great man,
to the from the
heavens will free
mighty men,
men, bonded fall on
men shall cry hide them
rocks and face of
mountains to him that
them and
sits on
the great
the throne
and from the wrath

come.
of the
lamb, but
David's wrath has

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: cause nobody really know Chapter 10, really has
So these subjects a real
are mysteries, to But in read and
thorough opinion of these things. scripture is
the real meanings after the student of
become familiar
with the
symbols, in
Chapter 10,
after
92
24
talking about
heaven. And
an army of 200 million that

he has in his hand a little book are uttered,
overthrow the
and it's
world, it talks about
a mighty angel coming down from

seven thunders.
opened and seven thunders
And JohnAwas told that when

mystery of God, this
there's time.no longer this

Jesus Christ, the
revelation of
seven seals will

his servants
be finished,
the prophets.
as God has declared to
HENRY: Umfhum.
MR. KORESH: So in this 22nd
chapter, after
person takes the time to read these things, it's very clear, the statement, Christ says I
testify to these things and the offspring of
a great
Jesus have sent my

churches. I Ancient am
r k
angel to the root

David was
in the
David. Now,
king, wasn'the?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
He's the one that took
his
little
sling stone
and slew the great
giant Goliath.
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH:Yeah, okay. was he says behold,

me, to
be. HENRY: Um-hum.
So what happened reward is with

as his work shall
I come quickly. My
to every man according
give it
MR. KORESH= Now, when Christ comes,
the
question is going to be what did the father give him
OO
25
that no other manin heavenwas worthyto receive? No

man was worthy. A book, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
God gave
him a
book, a
revelation of author of
himself that this book.
the father the lamb
claims he's the comes, he's
And when
going to
find out
bring this
that it
book and
is the
mankind is
supposed to
the
Bible, the
Bible which
prophets of gave them, those events Now, in
God having having volumed that must
spoken by
the spirit
that God to
a testament
in regards in the
be fulfilled John witnesses

a beast.
latter days. to the
Revelation 13,
John sees
in regards
seventh seal,
This beast
like a leopard, feet
has a head
of a bear.
like a
lion,
a body
7, Daniel
In Daniel
foretold that
the empires
of Babylon
-- Persia, as a lion,
Greece -ourth
and Rome would be Persia as a bear,
symbolized, Babylon Greece as a leopard.
And the
beast, he said, would devour all

before it and conquer the world.
the three
Now, that
beasts
was Rome.
Daniel also
says in
the days
of this
kingdom they
will
kill the
prince of
the covenant.
They could
place abomination
change
to
God's times and God's laws and
make desolate
religion is
false religion.
the religion of God.
We know the only
true
HENRY: Um-hum.
26
MB. KORESH: Now, Christ died during the

times of
written i
Rome and
on the
cross. Very
clearly, it's
n the
t
gospel records.
He said they do.
father, forgive
them for
hey know not what

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: commit my

word. By And by his
And then
he said
into thy
hand I
spirit. And
the word
the hand
of God,
of God
has a
book, the
earth.
God made
heaven and
word, there
was prophets.
The events
that
you're now
witnessing
are taking in the
place. Now, Micah, it and they
what is says in shall say of
taking pla
that day let thine the Lord, t
ce? Well, hey shall be defiled

neither do
Book of
gather together that they
know not
the thoughts
they understand
his counsel.
All of
Nahum, it
for insta
the prophets Messiah,
through it talks
the Book
of
talks about nce, to

ke
about, well, Christ says

in the
make it
David in
real simple,
revelation. So
he
Book of
has the the Psalms of the law --
y of
, for
fut
instance Psalms
a confrontation
2, David
sees a
vision
ure, of
between man
and man's
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
-- and
God and
God's law.
HENRY: Um-hum. MR. KORESH:

there's a
l" Now, Revelation 13 tells us that
lamb-like beast
that'll rise up, having
two
27
horns, and it'll speak as adragon. Now, we've to got

identify what a great great empire arose up after Europe Christian, but that's yet empire that's lamb-like or
doesn't really tell the truth. Well,

empire wve known is the United
the only great

America.
States of
Now, back to Psalms

heathen rage?
2, the
psalm says why do the

the heathen don't know God.
You know,
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH:
HENRY: Um-hum.
They don'tknow his
word.
MR. KORESH: And they

HENRY: Um-hum.
get angry.
MR. KORESH: It says,
and the people imagine

the earth and the
vain things,
for the
leaders of
rulers take
counsel together
HENRY: Um-hum.
against the
Lord --
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Um-hum.
- and
against his
anointed.
MR. KORESH= That's Christ, you see?

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: asunder. Now, what are the
Saying let
us break his
bands
seven bands
that Christ
promises to
seals, right?
bring when
he comes again? The
seven
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
92 I 1
But Zachariah
and the
other
28 I 92
prophets say that the world will not regard these

messages of mercy. They have no interest in being
instructed by from us.* But

right now,
anyone but themselves. Now, scripture says, which is

that sits
they say let away
us break his bands asunder, let

it says that he see?
us cast his cords taking place

in the
heavens ~-
That's the father, you

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
-shall
laugh, for
the Lord
shall have
them, the
heathen, in
confusion. See,
the time
heathen don't know what they're doing. And this
they can't be forgiven

reject the
9 92
because this time they willfully

so plainly a subject for the has been laid in which everyone latter days. And these is to
subject which
the Book of Revelation, be very familiarized with
yet, they're to understand
by earnest
study that
things will
remain a mystery
HENRY: Um~hum.
until Christ
comes again.
MR. KORESH: To reveal

HENRY: Um-hum.
these mysteries.
MR. KORESH: So the
heathen and
their tactics
in dealing
upon their
with a person
laws, they
based upon rumors and based

understand that God also
fail to
has a law
and God also has
a kingdom and God also has
key. so
r 1 1
what takes place,
it says,
then shall
the Lord
speak unto them in his wrath.
That's what happens
' 29 C
during the sixth seal.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
The sun
and moon
and stars
is
darkened, the heaven departs as a scroll, and the great men of the earth cry to the rocks and mountains to hide them from the face of the reality that know aforetime what Godsaid will they would not be. So they end up
fulfilling prophecy, not knowing what side they're doing. But to the wise, when God speaksin his wrath, they already know of the events.
I set my king up on my holy hill of So irrespective may take against the
I 92
And it says yet have

Zion. the heathen seals or the
of what attitude the seven
truth of
man that is trying
to teach the seven seals,
irrespective, God's kingdom, the stone, God himself is
going to intervene and he's going to hit

the feet going to and it's all going take the jurisdiction and
the image in
to blow away, and Gods power from all the
great men
spoken is
of the earth and all that the

to be fulfilled.
HENRY: Um-hum.
prophets have
QR. KORESH: Now, the psalm continues to say

I will declare the decree, the Lord has said unto me, So we thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.
know the anointed one is Christ, don't we? Christ is the Son of God in Psalms 2, right? ' .
p
30
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it the son ask of me and I will
says the give thee
father says the heathen
to for
thine inheritance
for thy pieces with
and the other most

thou shalt and shall
parts of
dash the break them
the earth
heathen to as a
possession, for a rod of iron
potters vessel.Now,that's pretty bad, isn't it?

HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: do they? HENRY: No,
I mean, nobody
wants
to be
hurt,
really.
MR. KORESH: So that's why inPsalms the 2

subject is one, is clear, the to teach mission of okay? the lamb, the anointed the seals,
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, the is written

therefore, be
reason why to say

the world,
the prophecy now,

be
is because
wise, ye
it continues
rulers of
instructed, ye with fear

_ 21
judges of
the earth.
Serve the Kiss the the way
Lord son,
and rejoice be angry,
with trembling. and ye perish in
least he
when is
wrath is kindled but a little.

guys, you know.
Now, I'm not mad at you

at you,
HENRY: Well,
either.
and we're not mad
MR. KORESH: Well, but
your show
of arms
is
92
O y Q
31
definitely bigger than myshow of arms. So in Psalms

18, the psalm has made very plain when it says I will
love the Lord for

call upon
he is my rock and my salvation, my says I will

from my enemies, be delivered
buckler and the horn of my salvation. It

him so shall I
for they
were too strong for

this is
And then
me. And the day of my

they
on to talk about a
calamity; and
prevented me.
a calamity, really,
it goes
terrible event
you know,
_ You
that takes
guys are
place afterwards,
too big
laws are
because,
you all
for
me.
than
know, your
more numerous
the Ten Commandments, know, you your weapons are

bigger, your forces are
HENRY: Um-hum.
stronger.
MR. KORESH: You know?
But not
really. You
see, not
of Israel
really. You
was having
know, Elijah
to face
in his
day, the
and the
king
the Moabites
Hittites and said was they be with

they did
they were outnumbered. But that be with
what Elijah that of the power

'
us are more than they their superior

forces of God, the
them because unbeknown to the forces

not see the invisible
heathen who were so boistering of angels of God, you know, just

ancient Hezekiah. HENRY :Um-hum.
like in
the days of
MR. KORESH= when the
Assyrian armies
came
92.
15
wouldn't he?
DAVID: Yeah.
so. Yeah, that's
Ican'tget down
there to
it
what we'll do.
HENRY: Okay. concerned about

concern. Can
And you know how everybody's I mean everybody is,

can you
money. And
you do
has a
me a favor, and
make it,
you know, like in
such a fashion
that, that
in order
to
avoid their
or whatever
wanting to chop it
-DAVID:
up or to play
part of
it
How much,
how much
does it
cost their
air time?
HENRY DAVID: HENRY:
Well, that's
Per minute?
the
whole thing.
That's the whole
thing. You
know, so
keep -DAVID HENRY: there's -DAVID: HENRY-
How much
does it
cost?
Idon't have any
idea. But
Give me the price

Oh, Idon't have
and I'll pay it.

any idea. Ihave no
idea. But
so that will get
what I'd like to
do is Iwould like for

where your chopped off.
know.
you
to make it as we can
concise and as brief be in a situation will be

go out
as you can make it word will, Your
out. Nothing
message will
as you want it, you

like I
DAVID: Well,
say remember
I'll even
16
buy the
time. You
know?
HENRY: Well,
DAVID: We will
you know,
fund it.
we don't need --
HENRY: --
we don't need that.
We --
what we
want is we
want you to -
you were given your

what we would
cooperation, and
that's what we promised
do. So
I want
to live
up to
my part
of it.
Yeah, I
don't need your money. Touch tone

_ DAVID:
But Ido sounds.!
need --
Hello? Hello?
HENRY: Jesus.
DAVID: Hello? HENRY: Hello.
DAVID: Hello.
HENRY: Who
What's going on now?

was that?
DAVID: Yeah. background not discernible.!
Unidentified voice
in
HENRY: What
-- you
know, what
I, what
would like
to see
is I
would like
for you
to, to
prepare yourself
message out and --
in such a fashion that you get your

wait a second.
DAVID: Okay,
HENRY: Now,
I'm a little
bit confused
about
one thing.
a man of your that you
Okay? I,
I know that you're, that you are

number two, Iknow terms of
word number one. And
know what you're talkingabout in
17
theology. I'mnot as
are, okay? But one
-- I'm not nearly

concerns that
versed as
I have
you
is I am
of the
taking youto your word and that is that you're going

to come out and that everybody is going to come out and
this thing
is going
to be resolved without
hurt.
anybody --
DAVID: Getting
HENRY: Getting DAVID: Except for what

speaks.
hurt. That for what
includes you. crimes we have to pay
we've committed that is
that. The
world so
HENRY: And in assuming that -DAVID: No,

fact.
that includes
you. Am
I correct
it's notan assumption.
It's a
HENRY: Okay.
Everybody's going to come out,
and everybody's going to be fine,

cause anybody to do anything to
and there's going to to

hurt you. I don't want
be no shooting, and there's going to be nothing to, anybody to hurt you.

assumption?
DAVID: You're correct on that.
Am I, am I correct in my
HENRY: Okay.
tDAVID:
So let's,let --
I got
to start
editing
this and,
right?
HENRY: Yes.
and you got the
van down therefor
the children,
18 DAVID:
Okay. Be right? Okay. Now,
sure and
tell them
we're
coming then,
all
HENRY:
now listen,
listen to
what I'm going to is going to stop

going
tell you.
in exactly to be
I don't know if
the same place as The only
this van
the other reason
van. It's
real close.
that I'm telling you

the kids there, y
because we've had
DAVID: towers -HENRY : DAVID : HENRY:
that is
whoever's going to take

are two of a just at new people, So -shift, okay? the water
ou know, these a changing Okay. But
Right. Right.
-- like it was before.
But, but
o r,
I mean, you know, they

forward from to get a concern,
may
be 20
feet back
or
5 feet
where they
parked before.
whoever it is tha
I don't want her
t's taking them there well, it's,they actly the

Okay.
didn't park in ex
DAVID :
same place.
Nothings --
HENRY:
-- going
re.
to happen
other than
what
has happened
befo
DAVID: HENRY: DAVID:
You got a radio

Right.
communication, right?
Okay. Like
I say,
we'll get the kids
ready and
-HENRY: Right.
19
DAVID: Are
they down
there now?
HENRY: Yes. Now what, what we're going to
need is I would like to try to start trying to find you

medical help.
DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY
No, not Okay.
yet.
Let's get the other Yes, we'll get -no,
done. I mean that's
fine.
And I understand that.
And I'm not saying, you

I want start
know, I'm going to send anybody in there.

your tape and all
DAVID HENRY DAVID
preparing to have somethingready for you after you do

of that.
Okie doke.
Okay?
Okay.
Okay. Now
I need to --
going to
send
the kids.
HENRY DAVID up. HENRY: DAVID
Okay.
He's going to get
the equipment
set
Okay.
I'm going to drink
a little
orange
juice, get my breathup a bit. When I, when I cough,

oh, man. I'll tell you. Anyway never mind.
HENRY: Howmuch time do you think you DAVID: Well,

get renewed.
have? I
see it's, it's like I get,

"
92
I 92
20
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: You know, and then, you know, the
pain and
all of
a sudden
Iget
where it'slike
something's developing in my chest. It's like -don't know. It's, it's kind of
cold it's -HENRY: Like an infection?
like a
-- it's not a
DAVID:
Idon't know if
it's an infection or
not. It's just --
Idon't know. It's just a
-- it's
kind of
like you
know how you feel

the flu?
when you feel like
you're fixing
to get
HENRY: YES.
f k
sure --
DAVID: Something
like that.
HENRY: Well,
are you
sure you,
are you
DAVID: You
HENRY: Are
know, you
you sure
go up
and down.
to
you don'twant us
send you
some medical
DAVID: No, HENRY: Okay.
help?
not yet. Let's, let's --
DAVID: --
we're on a good --
road right
now.
That's what I've been trying to

HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: -with Jim all along.

HENRY: Okay.
that's what Iwas
trying to
work
OO
21
DAVID: You
know, I
was trying
to get
a trust
in him to see if he
out.
would, you know, really
let me get
these kids out, you know, the way I wanted to get them
*HENRY : Okay .
DAVID: And
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And
he's been very good

Well ---
to me:
HENRY: --
we want
to, we
want to
continue in
that same vein. We

or make anything
don't want to change anything or,

a fashion, you know. And when
in such
you kept telling me

you know, because --
that there
was somebodyin that wasn't anybody,
tower or in the roof, I
knew that there
DAVID: We
found out
what it
was.
92
HENRY: Okay. we appreciate

you.
Well, we us. We
appreciate, you continue to
know, trust
your trusting
DAVID: Groaning. !
HENRY: We want to continue working
A
in this
fashion. I
would like, I would for, you know, [gap] I you to start working on that, that tape,
with you, and I want you to work with
would.like for
and I will work
me.
DAVID: Okie
doke. Okay.
Let me get off
the
phone then. And the kids will be
downthere in just
second, all
right? HENRY:
DAVID: Okie
Okay.
doke?
HENRY: Okay. DAVID: Okay, thanks.
HENRY: Um-hum.
[gap]
iii-
UNIDENTIFIED MALE getting ready for that. [gap]

iii
SPEAKER:
-and
I'm
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
HENRY: Hello?
SPEAKER Hello
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER Yeah
HENRY: This
is Henry? ls Henry Steve
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER This Okay. Wait one moment.

HENRY: Okay. SPEAKER Steve
I'll give you to
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE Henry.

STEVE HENRY STEVE HENRY: STEVE: Hello?
Steve
Hi, Steve.
Yes.
Steve?
This is Oh, hi,
Henry. Henry.
23
HENRY:
STEVE: HENRY:
How are
you doing?
side. Little bit --
I'm on the tired
Oh, I guess so.

-- little bit slow tonight. I wanted to Okay. Couple of things
STEVE:
_ -
HENRY:
bring up.
David
mentioned that
he was going to
try to
do that audiotape. Is
STEVE :
he working on that?
I just about 2
You know what, I,
minutes ago I was going to go lay down for a few
minutes, and I went past him and hewas almostsnoring.

He, he fell asleep.
HENRY : STEVE : HENRY : STEVE : mean I --
Oh, he
Yeah.
did?
Okay. So are mean have it or -you working you checked on that? or found Or I out
or I
anything about
HENRY :
Well, he
said he
was going
to try
to,
to give us a, a tape. And hehad askedsomebody to try

to go and get
STEVE: HENRY: STEVE:
some equipment
Okay. Yeah,
from -I, I see --
-- the
recording studio.
I see
something is
here right
now.
So that's apparently what

HENRY:
it's part of.
Okay. Is,
is he -- I
really have
concern becausehe was, you know, he was in, in
great
24
pain and
earlier.
agony, you
know, when I was talking to
him
STEVE: Uh-huh.
HENRY: And,
but, you
know, part
of the
problem is
like he
said every
time that
he coughs or
laughs or something like

starts bleeding
STEVE: He
that that he
feels that
he
again.
said that?
HENRY: Yes, he, he did.
And the problem is
if he is feeling
-if
there is internal bleeding,

time since,
see,
when, whenthat coagulates,
that's going to cause him
some serious problems. It's been a long
since he suffered
him some medical
that wound,
help.
and weneed to try to

for what
get
STEVE: Well
telling me I guess
HENRY: Yes
[gap] for,
they're
-- hello?
[gap].
STEVE: [gap]
Oh, something
-I
don't know
what'swhat's happening I wonder?

HENRY: Yeah.
STEVE: Is that at your end or -HENRY: No, it's probably at your STEVE: Well,
phone here.
end. the
there's nobody around the,
I don't get it.

HENRY: Uh-huh.
STEVE: I'm looking around here right
now.
1 I
25 I 92
Okay.
It sounds
actually better.
I don't know what
--
it kind
of cleared
up or something here.
HENRY: Um-hum.
STEVE: Okay.
Okay, you
were, you
were
saying, yeah.
Oh, I
tell you
what. I'm even talking Well, let
just so here.
worn
out I'm having a
hard time
HENRY: Okay. The, the

?
me, let brought the,
me say this. the last
two -
or the
lady that
two kids indicated that their car

gasoline. STEVE: Oh, it is.
is almost out of
HENRY: So
she said
or she
asked if
we could
bring some gasoline on

I 92
the next,
you know, when we do
the next exchange. Can you get a couple of kids ready

so we can pick them up and -let, let me find out then. I STEVE: Yeah,
guess I
haven't been with it lay down there and
just too
long here. me find
I was out
starting to
I was -- let
what they're doing, and I'll try to do that, okay?

HENRY: Okay.
HENRY: Okay. [gap]

[sap] STEVE: Henry?

~ 92
92
O
26 HENRY: STEVE: Yes.
So have you made progress with oI-Yes. As

s ome
doing
the tape
thing
HENRY:
a matter
of fact, --
I mean .
we,
we encountered
STEVE HENRY:
difficulty
but, but
Yeah.
What we're
about this Uh-huh. --
trying
to do is
because he
is most
serious
STEVE HENRY:
-- we're trying
to react
in exactly
the same
fashion
STEVE: HENRY: Yeah.
Andwhat we'retrying to work

get him some time on the National asting Network.
out is
we're trying to
Christian Broadc
STEVE: Network? HENRY:
The National
Christian Broadcasting
Yes, which out the Okay.
has several
thousand radio
stations through
STEVE: HENRY:
country.
Now that is,
is based in
Phoenix,
Arizona.
STEVE: HENRY:
In Phoenix,
Arizona.
But, you
know, their
headquarters.
But when
we call
ed out there, there's nobody there,

to go to the
so
we sent agents out
people's house and get
27
them out
of bed
or wherever
they're at --
STEVE: Uhhuh.
HENRY: --
so that
we can
initiate this.
STEVE: I
see. So
was he
wanting to
do that
yet tonight
or -HENRY: Well,
Y
he wanted
for us.
to --
he was going to
record the,
the cassette
STEVE: Uh-huh.
HENRY: And
STEVE: Yeah.
then he
assured me.
HENRY: And him to

least four
I told
him I
was going not once
to hold but at
his word,
times -
but he
assured me
STEVE: Uh-huh
HENRY: -everybody was
that,
that once
we did that,
' you be careful of the
coming out. see. Could
STEVE: I
cord there?
Ithink
that's maybe what the
problem is.
Someone was bumping into

is bad.
this -
the cord
in the
phone
HENRY: Oh, STEVE: Okay.

there. Hello?
HENRY: Yes.
okay. Yeah. Careful.

~
Careful
STEVE: Okay.
Okay. Let
me see.
And then
we're right -- now,
he's fallen asleep. I
see they
O
brought a couple of the things.
HENRY: Okay.
Steve. And the -STEVE: Yeah.
I
28
Is there any way I
could leave him maybe sleep for 1 hour?

But, but I have
a concern,
HENRY: --
concern that
I have,
you know,
is
that, you know, his health maybe deteriorating.

so --
Okay,
there's
I
STEVE: There's, there's -right now
a nurse over here.

the moment - '
And she says leave him sleep for
HENRY: Okay.
STEVE: -little strength here.

HENRY: Okay.
just to
regain, regain
at least
That's --
STEVE: And
then she
said she
wants there
herself asking if, if

area. She I think
that, you
they can't do something in that

here to me. Sb I,
or
be done to
was just whispering over

know, getting
see if
between her and I we're going

that kind
to ask them about
of attention
something, or
help out there.
there's more that could
HENRY: Okay.
provide that, but --
Okay. And
we are ready to
swsvs = HENRY: --
Okay. we're going to have to take him
92
29
out of
there. STEVE: UhhUh.
HENRY: Okay?
And I
want you
to be
thinking
in terms know, for

to your
because at the entire

shoulders, Steve.
STEVE:
some point the responsibility, group is probably going to shift
you
Isee.
HENRY: And,
and, you
know, I
know there's an
awful lot of people there. A

STEVE: Right.
lot of
children.
and us, this
HENRY: We want to between you

so that
between you
and me,
we need to try
--
to coordinate
we can
effect what
STEVE: Right.
HENRY: -David and Iinitiated and that is
everybody's coming out.
STEVE: Okay.
can you
HENRY:
Is there
an hour?
any way
then --
can,
call me
back in
Sure.
STEVE: Oh,
that would
be great.
Because I
think what I'm going to do is even lay down here, and

I'm going to have somebody here wake me up then. Or
if, if that
sleep or
the phone rings, I'm just going Ihear it just so Idon't fall off
to make sure too deeply in
something.
HENRY: Okay.
30 STEVE: HENRY :
Okay.
Now let
me just
ask you
this. Can
we
get a couple
of kids
so that
we can go ahead and, and
give you the gasoline for that

was asking about?
STEVE:
car that,
that that
lady
Well, she
said he
never --
he passed
out before he gave the next couple that going. So

Can, can
were to be do right
HOW .
I don't know what to really

we just
HENRY: STEVE:
wait for
1 hour? --
Okay. Does
And then,
and call
me and I'm going
to have
them at least have,
you know, a number of them
ready so that he can just

are going next then.
HENRY STEVE : :
say well,
you know, these two
Okay.
Yeah. I'm -- oh,

Last night
I never got
I tell
I went
you what.
through the
at all. I
mean I'm,
I'm so tired.
whole night.
laid down
And I,
to sleep
HENRY: STEVE: HENRY STEVE HENRY STEVE : : : :
You must Oh, I am.
be exhausted.
Okay.
Henry, thanks much.
Okay. I
I, I
tell. And
mean I know you're really trying

I really do appreciate it.
there. I,
I can
31 HENRY: STEVE: about an hour. HENRY: l STEVE: HENRY: STEVE: then
Umhum. O So I'm going to And please Okay. One Okay. Did you I -need a phone cord? me back, I think he call me conk out back. here for
other thing.
yeah. When
you call we --
I'll mention
that again.
he?
I guess
said
that, didn't
HENRY:
Yeah, but
wants.
I'm not sure what
kind of
cord
it is
that he
STEVE:
I'm not certain either
to be
honest
with
you. HENRY:
Okay. Okay.
Well, check
on those
things.
STEVE: HENRY: back
Okay.
You know, in about an hour I'll be
to you.
STEVE: HENRY: STEVE: HENRY:
Thank you Thank you, Okay. Yeah. Bye-bye.

iii
much. Steve. Bye.
RACHEL: HENRY: RACHEL:
Hello?
Hello?
Hello?
32
HENRY: This
is Henry.
Who's this?
RACHEL: Just a minute.

am I
Steve. Steve.
Who
talki
ng to? HENRY: RACHEL
This is
Henry. Who'sthis. couldn't understand
:I'msorry. I
you.
HENRY: Henry. RACHEL: Henry.

HENRY: Who's this?
RACHEL: Oh,
it's Rachel.
HENRY: Hi, Rachel. How you doing?

RACHEL: Okay.
HENRY: How's everybody doing in there?

RACHEL: I guess okay.
HENRY: How's David?
RACHEL: Well, he looks

he's --
okay. Looks
like
HENRY: He looks okay?
RACHEL: Looks like he's sleeping.

HENRY: Okay. Who is the nurse in there
that's, t
hat's taking care of

RACHEL: which
HENRY: Yeah.
him?
it?
nurse is
RACHEL: I
don't know.
HENRY: Are
RACHEL: NO.
you a
nurse?
'|
33
1 HENRY:
2 in there?
Okay. Is
there more
than one
nurse
3_ RACHEL:
4 know who, which
I think
one is which.
there's a few, but
I don't
5;
A HENRY:
Uh-huh. Well,
you know,
we have
A 6 concern. Andwe wanted to see if we could talk to her

7 so that --
8 RACHEL:
9 HENRY:
10 RACHEL:
Looks like
Oh, okay.
Here.
she's waking up.
11 [gap]
12 DAVID:
13 HENRY:
This Harry?
David?
14 DAVID: 15 HENRY: 16 DAVID: 17 HENRY: 18 DAVID: 19 HENRY:
Yeah. Is This is Henry. Oh
this Harry? Henry. -- sorry.
How are you doing? Okay. Are you in pain?
20 DAVID:
21 question. But, oh,
Gasping.! Oh, it's almost a funny

wait a second. Let me look --
22 okay.
23 HENRY:
24 them?
All right.
Are the children there

Yes, they are. You
yet?
talk to
want to
25 DAVID:
Yeah. See.
Rachel? Could you, you
could you get Larry?
Is Larry asleep or -could
34
get Rachel,
Larry and
RACHEL: DAVID: HENRY :
--- asleep.
Course, little
Um-hum. We
Jamie can't talk so.

want to confirm that
you're goingto be
DAVID: rest -HENRY: DAVID: HENRY:
making that Yeah. Iwas
tape, okay? just trying to get some
Yeah.
-- to
get my
strength up. Ican understand that.
Okay. Okay.
Do you
--
Idon't
know if
Steve had
a chance
to, to
talk to
you. But
you know, we're working something

this, we want to that same
yeah.
out. And
because, because you are serious, very

approach it from the seriousness. Okay?
serious about
same, you know, with

DAVID: HENRY:
Oh,
And what
we'd like to do
is we
are
trying to
to contact
not present
this to
somebody that's, that's
going to take it lightly but

as a matter of
rather whom we are trying

we speak is the
fact as
National Christian
Broadcasting Network. Okay?

All right. Okay.
All right. where is
Okay. Where's, that located at?

Arizona. I
where's which --HENRY:
They're based out of
92
35
think it's in, Ithink

have -DAVID:
it's in Phoenix. And
they
What's the subsidiary station
here
locally?
A HENRY:
That Idon't know.

sand radio stations
u know --
Iknow
that they
have several country. But,
thou yo
DAVID:
throughout the
The station
everybody's listening to
right now
is KRLD , right?
HENRY: DAVID: HENRY:
Yeah. But
Iknow --
that's, that's local.
We're trying to get
you something
number one
that's religious.
DAVID: HENRY:
Exactly. That's, that's serious. Exactly. I that has national
.DAVID: HENRY:
Number two
exposure.
DAVID:
Okay.
HENRY:
Now the - you of the
know, as you know, is here
that one
you are
of, one
very seri
concerns that Ihave
ous, okay.
And some of these people what
are calling
you - - Idon't even want to tell you
they're calling you. Okay? Imean it's something that

you don't like.
DAVID:
Okay? So
Ithought
it
would be
--
No, okay.
Ijust
-I
got what
36
you're saying just
--
HENRY: Okay.
that, you
Because it's
So we want to
have something
pleased with.
know, that
considered a
you're going to be
serious
religious network. national network anybody. So

in Phoenix, and
Okay? So
we --
mean, we
called this
in Arizona,
what we did
and we
is we
couldn't get a hold of

called our FBI office
as we
charge of
speak they're waking up

this.
DAVID: HENRY:
the people
that are
in
It's not
a 24-hour
radio
station?
that. I'm
Well, I'm
not
sure about
sure that
it is.
DAVID: HENRY:
What, what
-that it is.
Ishouldn't say I'm sure
But, but
head people,
the people
that we
were trying
So -Yeah.
to contact, the
weren't around.
DAVID: HENRY:
Oh,
Isee.
-- so
they, they
sent people
out to
the home.
Okay?
DAVID: HENRY:
Right.
And when Iwas
talking to
Steve, he wanted. So make this -tape.
was a little
bit confused
DAVID:
about what you
Okay. We're going to

be a Okay. long one.
It's not going to

HENRY: DAVID:
And we're going to
put something
92
0 @ 37
together very tangible, very simple, very even andp

begin to
the seals
show the
and what,
difference between
in, in difference to
the way
I perceive
what we've
heard the
seals being
presented thus
far by
all sohave been
called teachers calling the
and religious radio stations.
leaders that
HENRY: Uh-huh.
DAVID: So
that way
people will
be able
to
honestly
listen and
read their see that Iknow
Bibles
as they're
listening and
what I'm talking about.
HENRY: Exactly.
r 92
DAVID: And what they themselves have
then they'll seen and
make a decision heard from
frdm
their own
Bible. And
then like
HENRY: Okay.
Isay,
then I'm in your

the concerns
hands.
that I
One of
have, okay,
is I'm talking to
some people,
some medical
people. And
And what
what -I
don't like what I'm hearing.

that, you know, remember when
I'm hearing is
we were talking earlier
and you coughed, okay.
You
told me that you thought that

If you --
you might be bleeding.

"
DAVID: Yeah, HENRY: Okay.
when Icough
Ibleed. you think that
Now do you, do
you're bleeding internally? Probably,

DAVID: Well, the hole is right
right?
here next to
/ 92
the belly.
And it,
it hit
me in the, the
pelvic, and
38
then it
somehow
traced around
and went a hole in
out kind the back -
of
towards my
back
HENRY DAVID:
There was
Whispering.
-- that was
! My
God. the hole in
bigger than
the front.
HENRY: Yeah.
DAVID: And
Well, see
then the --
--
HENRY: What, what I'm, what I'm being
told
is that
when you're hemorrhaging and then you're blood
clots, okay,
been -this
it creates
is a
a problem; because internally

to deal with it. You've
somebody's going to have
long time
ago that this
occurred. We
need to try to move things along so that you

some medical assistance before of difficulty,
shock or something like that.
can get
having a lot going into
you start
you know, and, and you start
DAVID: Well,
hit I thought. HENRY: Okay.
I was in shock when I first got
DAVID: But like I
say when -- I'm going to

-when we send
make this tape and, and I'm going to
the kids out to you I'm going to send that tape with them. And you'll just have to -- this will play, this
will play tomorrow sometimes, right? -
HENRY: Well, we can play it whenever you want. If you want we can play it now. Or we can, we
1
39
r can go ~-
, u.
DAVID
:Well
- -
HENRY: -Tomorrow will be fine.
you know,
we can
play it
tomorrow. a
Now, you
know, if
you have
problem,rif you
have --
or if
you're not happy with
the
National Christian
KRLD. I
whomever you want.
Broadcasting Network, we can
go to
with
mean Idon't have any problems going
DAVID: Well,
that's like Isay
if it's a
national coverage then other stations will

HENRY: Sure.
pick it
than
up,
92_
DAVID: And
KRLD will
probably more
happy want to play it. Because

f 92
they've, they've been .

anyway.
I don't have any
wondering what's
happened to me
Well,
HENRY: Okay.
problems makingthem a copy and giving them a copy or

whatever you'd like. DAVID: Would correction for KRLD and HENRY: Okay. you, would then those
you make a
things for
me?
DAVID: Let's see. They
keep saying we have

1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,
eight kids
understand
out. Let's see, we got

we got 16 children out.
12, 14, 16 children.

HENRY: Okay.
I 92 0
And they need to, they need
to
DAVID: And
there's a whole lot
more as
92
40
you'll find out. And your all's records were really

wrong when you numbered the amountof people here and stuff. And, and, you know, I'd like to hear that on the radio that there was 18of them gotten out so far.
That's Lahara, Renee, Angelica, Crystal, Camaray phonetic sp.!, Landon, Jake, let's see, my eyes are
kind of blurry.
SHERRY: Ryan.
DAVID: Ryan,
yeah.
HENRY: Okay.Give me the namesagain.
DAVID: Let me, let me get this-HENRY: Lahara.
DAVID: ~-
closer to,
to me.
Just read it
off to me there, Sherry, wouldyou? The, the ones that

we've out sent so far. Okay.
Slow down, all right?
HENRY: Lahara.
Unidentified voices
in
background not discernible.! Okay, wait a second.

Okay. Lahara.
DAVID: Okay. You already got that down?

HENRY: Um-hum. DAVID: Renee. HENRY: Renee.
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: Angelica.
DAVID: Go
Angelica.
ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Crystal.
. 92
DAVID: Crystal. HENRY: Crystal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Camaray.
DAVID: Camaray. HENRY: Camaray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE
DAVID: Landon. HENRY: Landon.
SPEAKER:
Landon.
DAVID: Yeah.
HENRY: Jake.
The next
one
'
s Jake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
SPEAKER:
Ryan.
DAVID: Ryan.
HENRY: Brian.
f 92
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
DAVID: Joshua. HENRY: Joshua.
SPEAKER:
Joshua.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
DAVID: Jamie. HENRY: Jamie.
SPEAKER:
Jamie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE DAVID: No.
SPEAKER: ones
And --
The other
-~ all
the
0118 S
that are
side
marked off.
Unidentified female
voice in
background not discernible.! Those
others on the other
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Oh, Janessa

DAVID: Okay. Janessa.
42 I 92 DAVID HENRY DAVID Patron. Patron. HENRY Janessa.
Yeah. Keep
going. Unidentified me see.
voices in
background not
discernible.! Let
Let me see that

saying these
list. Groaning.!
here are listed twice?
Okay. Oh.
are you
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER:
Yeah.
DAVID: No,
they're not. No, these
are the
first ones
names over
we sent out. That's why they wrote the

there
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: them indiscernible!.

I k HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID: DAVID
we listed
No you
Chrissy.
Brian. Brian. Scott. Scott.
didn't. There's Chrissy.
Jake.
Jake.
And you
un
already got
Joshua and
Jamie.
So that's --
identified female
voice in background
not discernible! -- 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, -- okay, 6, 7, 8, 9 -- all we've been sayinganyway how many-,. 92
HENRY: I,
Ithink
we only have 14.
Ithink
43
1 you
2
said 1
6. but
I think
we have
14.
DAVID: Oh,
correct here
boy. I But like
tell you. Isay,
I mean, I got a big
I may long
3 be 4~ list
5 I 6 7
ed on them.
and ~-
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: -
we're marking them off
little by
; little
and -- okay. All

right,
right. So
start
groaning!
-where's,
--
6 all
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17
then so I'm going to
where's Greg and them?
They still
-- where's Steve?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Sleeping.

DAVID: Is he sleeping around the corner?
Oh, anyway. Here, here Larry. Here's

let you talk to Josh.
LORRAINE: Hello? HENRY: H6110?
- this
guy will
LORRAINE: Hello? HENRY: Oh,

--
This is
Joshua's mother. on a second. Let me
okay. Hold
1e get
19 20 21 22
LORRAINE: Okay.
Thank you.
HENRY: What's your name?
LORRAINE: Lorraine. HENRY: Lorraine?

me get
_ Okay. Hold on, Lorraine.
23 Let
24 25
the -
Joshua. How are you doing? you.
LORRAINE: I'm doing fine. Thank

HENRY: GOOd.
lsapl
.1
44 I 92
HENRY: He's
on just a
second.
coming right
up, Lorraine.
Hold
LORRAINE: Okay.
HENRY: Whispering.!
JOSHUA: Hi.
Say hi.
LORRAINE: Hi,
JOSHUA: Yeah.
honey. You
doing okay?
LORRAINE: Okay. right? JOSHUA: Okay.
You be
a good
soldier, all
LORRAINE: Okay.
JOSHUA: Okay. LORRAINE:
/' k
I love
you, honey.
Okay, sweetheart.
JOSHUA: Bye.
LORRAINE:
K
Bye. Yeah,
they'll feed you. not
Unidentified male
discernible.!
voice
in background
JOSHUA: What?
LORRAINE: Yeah, he knows that. He
already
said they won't feed me no -yeah,

pork, honey, right? Do
you tell
them no
you hear Mommy?
JOSHUA: Uh-huh.
LORRAINE: Okay, sweetheart.

okay? JOSHUA: Okay.
Be a good boy,
LORRAINE: Okay. I love
you. Wait,
hang on
45
a sec.
Huh? Hey,
are you seeing the them?
rest of
the kids?
Did you get to
play with
JOSHUA: No.
LORRAINE: No?Oh, maybe you will. What, what about the other kids that left? You didn't see
them?
JOSHUA: Uh-uh.
LORRAINE: The ones that just left,
no?
Okay. Well,maybe you'll see them.Okay, you going to

take the phone back,David? Okay, sweetheart. Put the
man back on, okay? JOSHUA: Okay.
LORRAINE: I love you very much.

Q 92
JOSHUA: Bye.
LORRAINE: Bye-bye, darling.

HENRY: Lorraine? ' LORRAINE: Yes?
HENRY: Oh,
okay.
LORRAINE: Okay, I'm going to put David back

on, okay?
HENRY: That's fine.
LORRAINE: Okay. Thank you.-
HENRY: Thank you. Unidentified
female
voice in background not discernible.!
DAVID: Okay. All right, thanks. Okay.

HENRY: David, one of the things that we need
QO
46
f k.
to work
out if,
if we
can is
we have
-- when
we made
that last kids over

gasoline,
exchange the said that
ladies that
brought the, out of
the
their car
was running could get
gasoline, and
they wondered if we
them some
Q
DAVID: Wait
a second.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Said
out of gasoline? Oh,
something about
it is?
their car
being
in
Unidentified voices
background not discernible.! Oh

you know, it goes
she said -HENRY: So
I 92-
that, that
little car,
--
a long
ways just
on a -- well, we
what --
DAVID: -But the thing of it is,
that she talked to

is that --
the girl,
Mary.
how low is, how
close to
empty is it? Unidentified

discernible.!
female voice in
background not
HENRY: David? DAVID: Yes.
HENRY: What,what we've done is we've gotten
a, you know, 5, 5 gallons worth

gas tank full of --
of gasoline.
We gota
DAVID =_ Oh.
HENRY: And when they,
we make the next
exchange we'll just fill it

, 92.
up. We'll, we'll pour the
5 gallons of gasoline in the car. Okay?
Q
DAVID: Okay.
appreciate that.
I
47
All right.
Thanks. I
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: I don't well, ~- it's too late to get

a phoneonow so.
HENRY: What?
DAVID: Oh,
we --
see we have a lot of
--
what wehad to do
is because I couldn't move and our
phone was, was way down in a different part of the
building, we had to scrounge up all kinds of phone

cords and piece themtogether to stretch
to, to get to where I am.
HENRY: Uh-huh.
them across
the building
DAVID: So we could have a phone here.

HENRY: Oh, okay, so you need a --
DAVID: So I had asked, I had, you know, I
hadsent some money to Jim, and I'd asked him, you know, to,you know, take care of the kids with that.
But --
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: -- I'd also asked himto if
he could
if he could just like have someone pick up, you know, half, you know, nothing real fancy, just a straight phone from Radio Shack or something with approximately
150 feet or so of, of telephone cable.
HENRY: Okay. Well, that's -- you know, I, I
92.
48
1 have
a note here
to get,
to get
a telephone was.
cord. I
2 didn't know what

3 DAVID:
exactly that
Yeah.
4 HENRY:
5: you needt-
Okay. That's what you
need-
You.
6 DAVID:
Yeah.
Not the,
the kind
that twist
7 around 8 you
9 we
10 .many
and around, you know, the, the need a lot

the better,
straight stuff,
know. I
can get
of it.
And the longer pieces

make.
because then we don't have so

have to
connections we
11 HENRY: 12 like, like an inside
Okay. Now you want that cord, right?
-- that's
13b DAVID:
14 HENRY:
15 probably get that
Yes, sir.
Okay. Let
as soon
me work on that.
as, as --
I'll
16 DAVID:
They've got it at
Radio Shack.
17 They've got like, you

18 sections, you know. So
know, they even got like 50 feet

--
19 HENRY: 21 about your health as
Okay. Let me ask you this. we all are, okay? But
When I he's he --
20 spoke to Steve he was, he wasconcerned, you know,
22 has a concern about making any decisions. Are you

23 trying
24 to,
25 DAVID:
to prepare him -- do you think it

is somebody calling? Hello?
Hello?
might be wise
1
to --
HENRY: Yeah. That is Steve -- are you
92 I
49
92
92
working towards
preparing Steve
to take over
some of
the responsibility?
responsibility on
A DAVID:
Because I feel that

your shoulders, okay?
you're getting
weaker, okay? And, and you have a lot of

Well, that's what I was telling Jim.
I was telling Jim, students from

tell them,
I said
look, Jim,
I teach
my meet me I
learn the
the very
first day
that they
want to
I say
hey, look,
do you
seals? And most of

learn something
they don't even know what that I tell

about Jesus End of tape.!
is at
first,
them. So
them look,
Christ
would you like to

--
92
_ 32
into Judea, deceive your
they kept people, but
saying to have all
Hezekiah now of them
do not to
come out
me and we'll take you to the land flow with milk
a land
likened to
your own and
and honey.
Don't let Hezekiah
deceive you saying that your

Anyway, what
God will deliver you.

had listened to
happened was as Hezekiah
the Prophet Isaiah, Hezekiah had repented his sins,

asking God
and living
and they
for forgiveness.
God and all
are no gods.
And Hezekiah prayed to the only

earth are
God, saying Lord God of heaven, thou art

the gods of the
true
idols
Now, we've come to
the birth
and there's no
strength to us that all
bring forth, the world
so please may know that
save us and deliver there is a true and
living God that night

we all
is Israel. the angel of
So what took place was, is the Lord went forth

soon.
that
and smote
185,000 of their warriors

know Christ
HENRY: Um-hum.
and they perished. You see,
is coming
MR. KORESH= That gospel's been preached

a long time, hasn't it?
for
HENRY: Um-hum.
It certainly
has.
MR. KORBSH= Yes. And everyone is supposed

to be like Christ, aren't they?
HENRY: Right.
MR. KORESH: Okay. But
the question
is is
92
92
33
1 the
2
world ready for the scriptures tell look for

the end of the
coming of Christ in
would come in glory
glory?
the second
V Well, God never said he
time. The tells us,

5 to you in
us, as the Gospel of Peter that shall be brought

of world at the revelation
the salvation find in
6 Jesus 7 to 8 dwell
Christ. We in the
Hebrews Paul tries to
explain
the Christian
church that
we who are of the spirit a sanctuary where the they cannot

it, because it
heavenly sanctuary,
9 man of this
10 pollute
world can never contaminate,

cannot contaminate
it, they
ll revolves
12
around God who speaks through his
word, the
seven seals.
And, you
God, unless
15 16
know, like
his word Um-hum.
I say,
--
unless we
fear
we fear
HENRY:
MR. KORESH: -- you
know, the
appearance of
17 the thing, just

18 19 20
like 2,000 years ago,

Christ was Messiah?
who really
believed that
HENRY: That's right.

92 MR. KORESH: You know?
21 HENRY:
That's right.
M. KORESH: And why did he have to die? He
says father, I pleadeth that thy remove this cup from me. But if it be not removed except I drink it, not my 25 will but they will be done. Taken from Psalm60, where
it says Lord, thou has shown thy people hard things.
Q
34
92
Well, theseven seals are pretty hard things. Thou has

made us to drink the wine of astonishment. the, to the Psalm 75, Messiah is talking to lift not
neck, for east nor
heathen and he says I a stiff

the in Orion
said to the fools do notfoolishly, and to the wicked

up your horn on high, speak not with
know that the west promotion comes nor the south, by neither from the north
-- past
Orion in
heaven in
the northern
part of
the
universe, the
above all
father has
exalted and promoted Christ
heaven, hasn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Right? Okay.
It says
in Psalm
75 - We're having a lot

f 92 now.
of babies crying around
here
HENRY: Are
they
okay?
MR. KORESH:I guess they're Why -- are the
babies crying so much? Unidentified female voice in
background not discernible.! Yeah, can yougive them some bottle or some, some breast or something?
Unidentified female voice in background not discernible.! Please? Yeah, she wants some milk.
Okay. Anyway,
friend.
sowe're stuck in a corner right now,my

now?
HENRY: Howdo you feel right

MR. KORESH: Well ~-
HENRY: Physically?
92
35
MR. KORESH:
In Psalms
-I
don't know,
it's
like this.
Christ says
HENRY: Um-hum.
he has
the key
of David,
right?
p MR.
KORESH: Hecan open and no one can shut?

I HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH:
It's taken from the
prophecy of
Isaiah 22,
for God
promises to
overthrow the
ungodly of
his land.
ungodly and
He's going to take

reestablish his
HENRY: Uh-huh.
away the power of

kingdom.
the
MR. KORESH: He says my servant -- Yeah, he says
in that
day I'll rise up means Godll
Eliakim, which
raise up Eliakim. It
his shoulder none shall And it says the key shut, and they shall
says on that day I'll lay upon

of David he shall and he shall open shut and him all none shall the glory and open. of
lay upon
his father's house. Now,
unless you
know who Eliakim
is, you
shall lay
won't know who his father is.

upon him the offspring But, you
But it
issue.
says you
and the
know what that is.
That's children,
isn't it? Offspring?

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Yeah. Well,
that's where you
get the first seal first thing that I

first seal,
at. The try to
man on the white
horse, the the

is
teach people in Psalms in
you know, the man on the white horse
Q
36
that you've got a bow, right?

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And he's also got

right?
HENRY: Umhum.
a crown,
M. KORESH:
conquer, right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
He goes forth conquering
and to
MR. KORESH= Well, then

find the truth of that in the 45th
what happens is you

Psalm.
Unidentified male
voice in
background not
discernible.! They're on the roof with ropes?

HENRY: What?
MR. KORESH: They're the on roof with ropes

right now.
HENRY: N0 MR. KORESH: HENRY: NO
No.
The guys are seeing them, right?

No, that'snot possible. That's
not possible.
We made an agreement.
No, they'reon the roof with
M. KORESH
ropes. HENRY: NO MR. KORESH
No. That's not possible.
They're right up
there.
HENRY: We
made an agreement. They

Make sure. Steve? Like Ask again. I say,
can't -so
Nobody can
a 1
be there.
MR. KORESH:
I feel
37 r
sorry for
you guys.
HENRY: What
_
we want, what we'rehoping to
do --
MR. KORESH: don't understand.

Jones ever get this
I know
what you
want, but
you
Look at
kind of
how much
- Look,
--
did Jim
slander? Look
HENRY= We don't want anybody -don't want you to be slandered.
We certainly
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Okay. MR. KORESH:
the one church
r 92
Listen, let
me explain
again.
Okay, look,
in Psalms
45, God's
speaking. And
-- See,
There is
when you come up hither to

the world,
to be
my
it's thespirit and

no temple on God,
the world
is bad.
honest. The
temple
of God
must be
in you
and it
must be
in truth.
Spirit
you'll
isn't i
and in
truth, okay?
When you come up hither,
see God on a
throne. That's what's written,
t? When
you read
things, you
don't reallysee
it,
you just
see it
HENRY: Umhum.
in your mind,
don't you?
MR. KORESH: And our with the knowledge of
mind must
be renewed
God, correct?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: scripture as
/ 92
_
use to see his mind.
That's why God has chosen to
a means
HENRY: Um-hum.
for men
O *5
38
mi. xonssx-1= So in the 45:11 Psalm, when you

come up hither and you can look at the father
spiritually and my heart

and opens
you hear the 45th the father gives me

about the
Psalm speak, the book,

white horse?
it
says
-- See,
the
right,
first seal
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: So then I show
A
you Psalms 45.
It
says my
heart is which I
HENRY:
indicting
a good
manner. I king. You
speak know
of things
have made touching my

Um-hum.
who the father's king is, don't you? It's
Christ.
MR. KORESH: It
a ready writer.
HENRY: Uh-huh .
says my tongue
is the
pen of
MR. KORESH: Now, how does God want to

He wrote a book, didn't he? .
speak?
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: That's why his tongue isthe pen

of a ready writer.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:He says to

are fairer
opinion isn't
the son, he says
thou
than the children

it?
of men. So
that's his
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: He says grace

lips. Now,
is poured into thy
how are men required to be saved in the
39 I 92
latter days? Who's to come? going And what's he going

to teach? The seven
HENRY: Um-hum.
seals,
right?
M. KORESH: And who gave him the seven seals

to teach? The father, right?
HENRY :Um- hum .

. MR. KORESH: And all that receive his
testimony will
learn the
prophets and
all the
books
pertaining to
these seals
and they'll receive grace
--
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
salvation.
HENRY: Um-hum. r K
-- unmerited
favor for
MR. KORESH=
So, therefore,
have God
blessed
thee forever.
But then it says
gird thy
sword upon thy

truth. In
thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

And in that majesty Now, what did he
the first seal what
HENRY: The
ride prosperously ride? What

does he
because of king ride?
does the
ride?
white horse?
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Um-hum.
He rides
the white
horse.
MR. KORESH:
now, right?
So they're on the
roof for
sure
HENRY: No, they are not on the roof.

is even close. Listen, the agreements that we
Nobody
made,
40
David, the agreements that Jim made with youall stand.

We are not --
MR. KORESH=
Well, why,
why are
people
jumping all around on the roof?

HENRY: There is nobody -- There is -Let's get back to the psalm is nobody on your
y
roof. There
M. KORESH=
then, so
you can get a better So in Psalms

ride prosperously
picture of 45, it
the way I thy glory

truth. Now,
think, okay?
and majesty,
says with
because of
what is the truth-that the father gave himthat says

he's going to ride
right?
HENRY: Um-hum.
prosperously? The
seven seals,
MR. KORESH:
Okay. Meekness
and
righteousness, it
says thy
right hand
shall teach
thee
terrible things.
book.
Why? Because the father
gave me this
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH:
The father
gave me
the book
and
it talks terrible things, what's going to happen the to

heathen that
the word
resist, resist
against the
will of
God,
of God.
HENRY: Um-hum. '
M. KORESH: arrows are sharp in
Okay. Finally, of the
it says
thy
the heart
king's enemies. I
Q O
92 41
mean, you know, what arrows? Doeshe have

first seal? He does, doesn't
HENRY: Um-hum.
a bow in the
he?
MR. KORESH: Okay. whereby
the people
fall
under thee.
This says thy throne
O God is forever
and
forever. The indiscernible! is a right

love is righteousness
scepter. Thy
and hate is wickedness.
Therefore, God,thy Godhave anointedyou with the oil

gladness above thy fellows.
God?
So is Christ the son of
HENRY: Yes.
MR. KORESH: And he's God, isn't he?

HENRY: Um-hum.
r. 92
MR. KORESH:Okay. Now, it goes
on to talk
about his marriage. It

stand the queen in gold
[9aP]
says upon
of Ophir.
my right hand is
MR. KORESH: They're coming in on
us.
HENRY: No, nobody is there. I

nobody is there. We -Every
before stands.
promise you
made
agreementthat we
M. KORESH:
Go up and see.
HENRY: Go ahead and
send somebody, because
there's going to be nobody there. There's going to he nobody there. Ican promise you that. Like, you know,
; ~
just like
you, we're also servants of the Lord. We're
nct your
enemies. We're
not.
MR. KORESH: Well, if End of Tape 10A.!
you -
92 s
92 '92
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
& FIREARMS
92 92
TAPE #102
3/1/93
HENRY: And problems with that.
that's fine
1'
and I
have no
M. KORESH: Okay. y
HENRY: But I have
there all day.
a problem with you
staying
NR. KORESH: Well -HENRY: And

would like --
when I
say I
have a problem,
MR. KORESH; This
is why,
this is
why you
agreed to
play this
tape, right? Because
you really
have no intention ofplaying it, right?

HENRY: No, no, no, no, no. That has nothing
to do with anything.
do something, know, I, I have
If I
told you
that I
was going to
do. You and
that's exactly what I'm going to no problems

know --
doing, you
know, this
whatever, you
MR. KORESH:
all.
I told
these people
to trust
you
' HENRY:
And, you
know, and
likewise I've
been
trusting you,
okay? MR. KORESH: Okay. Now, here's the deal,
though. You us for this --
know, you do understand what I have to say to
the importance be gotten out.
to
Now, we're not terrorists.

we don't have no
' HENRY:
I mean,
you're not-- And
hostages here.
I understand.
MR. KORESH:
I mean,
the children,
that's too
kind of
young to
like
a hostage
cause, like
decisions.
say, they're
make their
HENRY:
Um-hum.
MR. that, even is is

F
xonssm And
I don't,I don't agree with see. So the thing of it
if they're my own, I say,
that, like
I've been faithfully sending I'm tryingto, to, to buy
them out. Not

time, but
this.
just because
because I
just don't want them
involved in
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:
You know?
And
trying to,
to
walk the you know,

92 I
middle of and as
the road fair for

make it
to make you. But,

fair for
it as
fair for
us, my
Just
actually, on
me first.
make it
where
side, I'm going to
like your, you first. coming from you say, radio and
saying you
your side, So, you on that area.
you're goingto see, we both know
fair for
we're
You've got me, okay?
Like
you know,
we're sitting here listening to the radio keeps continually

you all
the
everyone on
all are
going to
storm us,
sent, you
sent not saying
You know,
this is
what they'resaying now.
I'm
that that's true. HENRY: Okay. See? So you're being -- If
MR. KORESH:
you're honestand you're being dirty
dealt with,
just
92
like I
have been dirty dealt
with, you
see? And
A
it's a
different situation,
HENRY: Well
but still
--
it's the same thing.
MR. KORESH: They're that saying you're going

to do radio something and at least, it's going on national radio, state and and people are out
you know.
there listening
you're not correcting it,
And they're saying
well, the
happen and,
fog is
a good
cover and this is
going to
and
and we've seen these
many vehicles
they're moving up and, and, you

not, you'renot getting on those
know --
Well, you're
now, wait
boys saying
a minute, you know, we're doing not that.

they're incessantly tormenting us, you know,
No, they're,
and
they're telling us what you guys are doing.
HENRY: Exactly. But one of the things that

we've been doing is we've been ignoring the
press to know what
press
we are or
because we don't want the
are not
doing, you
way or
know, and that's why we haven't said

the other.
anything one
MR. KORESH: All right. HENRY: That's why the correct story, because we're just
MR. KORESH: HENRY: -But the not talking
press doesn'thave the --
press -to them.
M. KORESH: pulled them
The press,
you know, you all that when
back because,
you know, they feel
92
OO
S
you all comein here

everything that
footage.
and, and bang us all up and

it on
night
you don't want them to get

But the press was
_ HENRY:
saying last
that we were storming the place at eight
o'clock, and I
told you we weren't, and we haven't.And even when you thought that somebody was on the roof, I
we were not.
told you that
MR. KORESH;
Yeah, that's true.
HENRY: hnd we didn't.

MR. KORESH: And that's in your
agree.
favor, I
HENRY: Okay.
So, you
know, I
would like
for
you, you
to sell
know, in
all of
order for
me to,
to, to
I need
be able
a little
to,
bit
this to
my bosses,
of help
from you.
Now, what I
can do,
or what
I'd like
to do is let
me talk to them in terms of selling that, will you
this agree
to KRLD and maybe we can have KRLD then go
national
during prime time. And if we do

to come out at that time?
M. KORESH:
HENRY: Okay.
When you've done the
national.
MR. KOREsH= You can

send the children.
do KRLD and I'll still
HENRY:Okay
MR. KORESH:
.
You know.
V 1
HENRY: All
of them?
MR. KORESH: Not all say, when

of us come.
of them
yet. Like
you go
national, then
they'll all come, all
HENRY:
Okay. Let's
do this.
we
MR. KORESH: originally made.

HENRY: Okay.
That, that's the agreement
And that's
fine, but,
but
let's considerdoing one,

this. When the tape,
that?
one thing.
out the and two
Supposing we do
two kids women. How to -~ with
the give me
you send two kids
about
MR. KORESH:
See, there
we're --
HENRY: Well,
sell this because --
I'm just saying I'vegot to
MR. KORESH: that binds us all
Look, look,
there's one thing
here together.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= It's thetruth I'msending in that tape. Now, these women, if they were to come out
to you right now,

been dealt
across the
you know, knowing
how so far we'veV

straight
there. You
with table, but
We've been dealt with

there is some shadow
know, they're not goingto trust you until you have

ultimately shown that you have kept beyond a your shadow of full end a doubt, you know, of the bargain.
So, you
know, it's, it's like, it's like --
What you're asking me to do is you're asking me to use

my influence -HENRY: Um-hum.
iMR. KORESH: --
to barter the
effects of all fail to
someone else's
/
decision to
deal with
what we
have
believed in,
because you
understand what
we're believing in. The
Constitution --
Watch the though there's law says religion. But,

define what
baby, please -- in,

many interpretations,
are to course, it religion is have religious has quotas and is
in written
--
form,
constitutional
freedom for
that we of
to where we've got to not ac

ceptable.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
Okay? Now,
we do condone a
Bible religion,
interpretation. So
but then there comes in the aspect of

someone's interpretation could be
wrong and therefore making their religion if that religion hurts others, if
binds others, is our then definitely the public
wrong. And others or

a stand which
it confines
the public,
we have to take so that
and present it to
judicial system,
realistically, can
decide that
well, no, deal with the
this is
incorrect, and we have to, in

the scripture says.
means, what
person that's going contrary to, to

You know, people can
the person is saying
screw things up. And
92
that religion
is a
false religion,
for sure.
HENRY: Um-hum.
I agree
with you
on
all of these
things, you know, and I love America, you

person. In 1988, if you research
know. And you'll find in my past record that, you

know, I'm not a bad
that so-called plenty of times gun battle, to the you'll findout Iwent
Sheriff's Departmentand asked with George Roden on research
them to come out here and deal that corpse

that,
abuse thing.
that out.
You know, if you
you'll find
And when Iwas
told point-blank
that
Ihad
to
get these Dixon says
pictures, now, boys,
and, as
we were walking out you know,
Sheriff
be careful,
there.
there are
some dangerous
customers out
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH: Now, that's when I had to and think now, what does he know that I
stop
don't know? I
didn't know Donny JoeHarvey or Orville Wells

didn't know that George was involved in coke
yet.
and also
in methamphetamine.
HENRY: Um-hum.
Ididn't know those things then.
M. KORESH:
So, you know, why the system
did
not -Well,
bridge.
like Isay,
this is
a lot
of water
under a
HENRY: Right.
92 9
MR. KORESH:
But
it did
make me
look bad.
And the thing of it was was that the weapons that we

purchased, which at that you can look on we had all the was with yellow sheets, a yellow sheet. time everything
a~HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
Everything we
bought was
with
yellow sheet.
things were There were
Everything. You'll
bought locally basic Rugers, and also you know,
find that
in from and stuff,
those
Palestine. which at
that time
know.
was considered,
you know,
a rodent
gun, you
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
Of course,
we know
that the
5.56
is also
a military,
too. "
HENRY: Right. MR. KORESH: But, anyway, the thing of it is
is that
it gets
blown out
of proportion. And I think one of the things
HENRY: Right.
that we're talking about

resolve here concerns about think that
that we might
and what we're trying to

everybody's either fears or or might not happen. your main
--
is,
is that what might
I, I is
what your
concern is,
concern
attack you,
okay? And
MR. KORESH:
comes down to this.
Well, if
you attack
us, it
just
HENRY: Okay,
but
we're not
-- We
have no
O
10 r s
intentions of
to this,
doing that.
I know, but it just comes down
MR. KORESH:
though. You
HENRY: Okay.
end up killing
And our
us.
that,
concern is
that --
MR. KoP.sss= And then you'll have a story the

way you
around
had it.
us.
You'll --
There's no,
there's no media
HENRY: Well,
MR. KORESH:
we don't -You I
ll say
that we
attacked you
and this,
that.
HENRY: No. Our
concern is
you might look, if
that you're not

commit suicide. I wanted to commit
going to
f-. 92.
come out
and that
Oh,
MR. KORESH: suicide, Iwould have done
it already.
Now, let
me
explain something.
HENRY: Well ~-
MR. KORESH=
We were
accused three
times this
last year
of going
to commit
suicide. Three
times.
The authorities
phonetic sp.!
were roused up by letters from

and all that. Here we, here
MARTBRO
we've been
digging lakes rat hill, hoping

finished, to
in the
be able
front, fixing
to present
this place up
it true to all
from a
those
that one day we might have at the
this place
v F
f
who want to come. But

as long as there
same time, knowing that

who would not look at the
were people
92..
OD
11
truth, we
could not
sit with
idle expectation
and think
that we're always going freedom that
to be
able to,
to have
this
we've enjoyed.
We've never gone outside our boundaries.
We've things done that are

suspicion on is is that if to the every hand, you there is
legal. You
know, but anything
know, always
the thing of it to we need
in question, are supposed
take it it to
Bible. Christians and the

we are
to take
the law
testimony of
commanded by
God's scripture.
scripture to abide
Now, otherwise,
by the
those
laws of
laws don't
the land
in every
degree,
as long
the law
as
of
100 percent
conflict with
God.
In Nebuchadnezzar's day, when
_
Nebuchadnezzar
had that to the

laws of
dream, you
know, Daniel
and them
were subject
Babylonian kingdom,
Chaldea, didn't make that
weren't they? They kept the

they? But when it came for all
Nebuchadnezzar to
image and
he commanded
people to
bow to
it
-i
h um.
HENRY: Um-
MR. KORESH:
-you
know, indiscernible!
we
will not be careful in answeringthis to you, king,wed

will not bow down to your law which goes came. They against our threw those God's law.Well, the
boys in the
acid test
they?
fire, didn't
HENRY: Um-hum.
92
92
12
MR. KORESH:
did. Now,
But who
protected them?
now.
Not a real
God
fire.
we're in the fire
And, like
nation and
I say,
that it,
we believe that
like Assyria of Jonah
this, this
America is
or Nineva
can have
a great
of old,
a chance
can
to
hear theemessage
say hey, you know,
and it
--
what this
guy's
teaching out
of the
book is
straight out
of the
Bible,
it's inharmony, it's perfect. Maybe misunderstanding here.

what -If
there's beena
HENRY: Well,
we can
go back
and
clarify our
agreement so
that you
.
feel comfortable
--
MR . KORESH: Right HENRY: --
and everybody
feels comfortable.
And what
we need
it comes
to -you
down to is
need to
real trust,
have trust in us
you know,
and
and we need
to have
the children
trust in
or two
you. Can
children
you give
and
me either
all of
And, you
two women?
know, and we'll
give what
I said.
I will media right

let me talk
give you
the
KRLD and then going

M. KORESH: with, with some -~
to national
Let me,
thereafter.
about this
HENRY: You
know, if
we don't do what
we say
that we're going to testimony against
do, the us. Are
women will we going to

Come on.
be able to look good
give ~-
MR. KORESH:
No, no.
HENRY:
-in
the eyes
of everybody?
92
13 M. KORESH: Come on. '
HENRY: We MR. KORESH: HENRY: We
will
look awful. Look --
will look
awful.
A MR.
KORESH: Oh,
Henry --
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: federal government HENRY: I --
-- how
many times
has the
have not
-I
have been
straight
with you,
with --
in everything
that we've talked with you all the way. I from the you gasoline
about. I've been straight told you place, and when you we would we have.
keep everybody You know,
away from, we offered
didn't have gasoline.
MR. KORESI-I: I'm just thinking about

past cases of where the -Like I say, we
all the
both know
what I'm talking about.

HENRY: Whatever past cases I've had --
MR. KORESH:
But this
is our
case, this
is
our case.
Me and you are HENRY: Exactly.
talking and Exactly. This
-is you and
me --
M. KORESH:
HENRY: --
Okay.
and, and --
M. KORESH: committing suicide.
So you're worried about All right.
me
92
14
HENRY: We don't want anybody committing
suicide. i
M. KORESH: HENRY: And Okay. we want to get you out of there
as soon
as possible
because, you
know, your
blood know,
pressure isn't all that with all those blankets
good. _You're not, you that you have on
you, you
should be
sweating a little
MR. KORESH:
bit, and
Well, how
you're not.y
it in this
cold is
room?
HENRY: I MR. KORESH:
understand that. Low forties.
HENRY: I
you've hadthat injury
attention.
MR. KORESH:
understand that,
for some time
but your
now. You
injury -need
Yeah.
HENRY:
You know,
there for
a while
you
said
your mind
feel that
was going
you~have
blank, you
a shortness
know. Periodically,
of breath. Those are
not good signs. We

attention for
out and, that. Give and have
need to get attention,

I don't want this
my hands. you. " your death on to help
Well --
medical
thing to drag
I don't want
you. So
me a chance
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Give MR. KORESH:
me a chance to
help everybody. were working
-- that's what we
15 I 92
out. Now
you're twisting up again.

HENRY: No, I'm not.
M. KORESH:
thing on national.
You said
that we
would play
this
'"HENRY: We will. And
that's exact
--
M. KORESH:
And I
told you
-we're going to
HENRY: That's exactly what

do.
M. KORESH;
And then
we would,
you know,
all
come out. And

ahead and
I told
you, Isaid
well, look,
I'll go
two
I'll send a tape and you it on
and I'll send
you out
more children, said we'llplay
said that's fine. And
then you
KRLD and you didn'tsay anything

on, play it on KRLD and then we'll
about we'll play it
send everybody
know, now
out. You
didn't saythat. And
so, you
Now,
you're saying something different.
that's honest, Henry, that's honestly

And then
doing.
what's happening.
that Jim's
you're doing
the same
thing that,
You're saying your bosses, mean, I mean, this you know. got a lot is not Burger King
your bosses.
management here, the one's that
You're the negotiator, you're of, a lot of power, don't you?
HENRY: Well,
Idon't have all
Idon't have as
I still have
much, you
bosses.
know,
the power.
Okay, now, you're in charge there

L
and it's quite easy
92
16
for you Now,

real hard and I
to make I've been

for a will continue
the real
lot
decision if straight with of the

to do
you choose you and
to do I've pushed
so.
things that
that. But
you've wanted,
I need a little
bit of
help from
you Okay, let me, like I said too, --
MR. KORESH: Finishing

so --
this tape
is being dragged
out now,
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: - let me -I'll have to, I'll
have to these girls
get
with these, and talk to
you know, especially them. Can I Well, as get two soon as
some of

finished.
kids now? I get my tape
HENRY: How
working on it?
about
now, while you're
still
MR. KORESH:
OD.
Well, that's
not
what we agreed
HENRY: you if you will consider
I'm not,
you know, doing that.
I'm just
asking
MR. KORESH: complicated cause, some mothers out with
See, you're making it say, are we going to send
like I
these children?
Now, that's
going to
take some
HENRY:
work on
Okay.
my part.
0I
17
MR. KORESH:You know? And, like

these people know the seals and they know
I say,
that unless
this country observes and sees, then they know pointblank what's going to happen according to the
prophecies. That's why our main burden is holding

here until
You know,
out
law
we have an opportunity
what did Nicodemus say?
to state
He says
our cause.
did our
judge any many before the hearing? We're talking about

the Jewish
law of you, we because I
with God's
,-
law, which
is law
of'God. Now, we know the

and
man does, kind of, want to

laws.
but, you kind of
know, that'swhere me have a little friction,
serve your
laws where
they coincide
'
And America
does. Above
all of
the nations.
It does.
You know,
it's theclosest to
God's laws, know. But,
basic principles
of common sense, you
again, there are

which are laws are the laws great laws
some laws in the

of prophecy,
scriptures of
you know,
truth
and these the them
because they'readditional to as the law do. of forgive
Ten Commandment law, such father, they
don't know what they

HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
See, now,
that's a law. You
have to
forgive people
based on their
ignorance.
V HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: Now, the next law, which let's
92
18
say the
Ten Commandments is Christ,

HENRY: Umhum.
right?
MR..KORESH: So
the 11th
commandment is
forgive
we have
them, okay? to forgive
So every him cause
man that,
that does
err,
they don't know what
they're doing.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
S0 then
the 12th
law will
be
into they
hand I
commit my
spirit, which
means, like
Isaiah 51
seek after to the
on that
says, when God
says hearken
who seek You know,
he?
to me,
you who
righteousness, you
the Lord, look God is that rock
rock indiscernible!
throne, isn't
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: And it
says behold
my people,
give ear
from me
to me, oh, my nation, for

and I will make my judgment in that
a law shall proceed

to rest that law for a is light
to the
people. And
judgment,
seal.
Christ coming,
the seventh
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: Now, that's why without
you
knowing where these seven

know, you
seals are
in the Bible,
you
wouldn't know how to

HENRY: Exactly. MR. KORESH: Except by
judge me.
your
law. And
respect
that. See,
I'm willing to come
out and
be
19
observed and judged by your -HENRY: Okay.

law.
MR. KORESH:
HENRY:
Okay.
A M. KORESH:
speak my law.
But if
you allow
me to
first
. HENRY: you. Talk, talk to
And I
have no
problems with there, talk
allowing to the
the people back in
women. I'll call you

you can let me know --
about 15
minutes
and, and
MR. KORESH: HENRY: --
Okay. what the decision is. In the
meantime, you're also going to be working on the

preamble and the tape. MR. KORESH: Okay. What'sthe preamble?
HENRY: That's, that's where you're going to

explain our agreement to the --
M. KORESH:
HENRY: Okay?
Oh, okay,
right.
Okay.
MR. KORESH: Right. All HENRY: Okay. So

little bit.
right. in a
I'll call you back
MR. xonssr-1= HENRY: Okay?
Okay.
MR. KORESH: Okay. I'm

some adjustment here now, so --
going to
have to
do
92
20
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
little bit HENRY
Okay, I'll talk to
you in
Okay. I'll talk to

iii!-t I
you. Bye-bye.
RITA: HENRY: RITA: HENRY RITA: David? HENRY RITA: HENRY RITA:
Hello? Hi. Hi.
This is
Henry. you want to speak to
Okay, Henry,
Yes. Who
is this?
It's Rita again. Thank you, Okay.

Wait a minute. Had this ear
Rita.
MR. KORESH=
plug again.
HENRY: What?
M. KORESH:
again. HENRY: Oh, MR. KORESH: the ear pl
ug.
I said
I had
the ear
plug in
0
okay. , I keep putting the phone with
HENRY: Oh, M. KORESH: HENRY: Okay.
okay. Okay, here's the deal.
92
21
MR. KORESH:
I'm going to make
this tape.
Now, you know, some of these
younger girls,
you know,
they don't want to them, I said look,

truth. You know?
HENRY: Umhum.
go, you know, and I, I I says,
explained to
you know, our main thing,
Sarah knowsanyway, andit's the truth. You
know, the
MR. KORESH: And I cause, you rooms, and know, they talked to -- the them, but
explained girls have
to them
again,
the different to them, I
I explained
said, you
believe
know, our whole purpose is our

Bible, so
message. We
we
have a message in the
and the world's ignorantof what
they're ignorantabout what
we're doing.
HENRY: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:
So, I
says, you
know, I've
talked to the
to, you ourselves, you
guy and he's concerned that we're going

we're going to all zap know. Why wouldn'thave we zapped
anyway, Henry?
know --
know, same old story,
ourselves already,
HENRY: You
I mean,
come on.
M. KORESH: See, that's what they -- Anyway,

I'm sorry,I didn'tmean to get
HENRY: Okay.
off the
-
track.
MR. KORESH: Here's the deal. So
some of
the, some of the older --
You know, we have quite a few
92
O
' 22
92
here, too.
HENRY:Okay MR. KORESH: . And I told them, I said, look, I
older ladies
says, you
know, you
all, you
know, you
all --
Cause
they, they've been quiteshocked, you know. I told

him, I said, look, you all, you know, you
truth. I is the
all are
not really the

remember,
involved in
message and
anything, you
believe the
all believe
says, but,
that's themain thing,

stand for.
truth is
what we all
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And I help present to the

HENRY: Um-hum.
says you truth.
can probably
also
people the
MR. KORESH:
And so,
you know,
I've, I've
been talking
you know,
to them.
I said,
look, here's the deal,

for God here, and
you can
either witness
probably don't want to chance to,

him there. HENRY: Um-hum.
listen to
us, or if
you had a to
to be
on the
outside, you
could witness
MR. XORESH:
You know,
cause people
are
going to want to know why we've done these crazy things. Now,
of baloney.
next thing
But I
-- We didn't give them

know, you're So, you know, if
a bunch
that
said, you the victims.
the ones
are supposed to be
0 92-
23
you're out there, you you know,

to live,
Christian.
can do there
know,
a greater
witness for
God,
being out
cause, you
to show
a dead
them that
Christian is
you do want
a dead
a HENRY:
MR. KORESH:
Right.
A live Christian is a witness.
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH: to them,

realize that America grants unto
f HENRY: Um-hum.
So, you if, if,
know, and all can,

it
so I
explained
you know,
that --
if you
thing of punished. ~We
you know,
See, the has to be men an
is we don't teach teach that God mistake in
opportunity to
see his
the light of
God's word, and
then repent of it.
MR. KORESH:
You
know? And
so that's the
whole thing. good relationship began to explain excellent listener not trying ragging our
Armegeddon and
So this, on the
this is
where me and Jim
had a
phone, because, him. He, like you,
you know, I is an
things to
and he began to just radical
realize that
we're
to be
idiots, you
know, with about
head off,
stuff.
you know, talking
HENRY: Um-hum.
M. KORESH: Youknow, Armegeddon

prophecies tell you is an end of time
is -- the h
'
when God
/ K
resurrects all the people that have ever lived and they
92
92
.'
24
attack the city of God. Ezekial talks about it. So,

you know, anyway, it'snot a few handsful of maniacs
trying to
fight. That's not Armageddon at all.

HENRY: Okay.
*MR. KORESH: But, anyway, so the thinc of

is is that, you know, there's, there's, you know,
it
there's three of them here that

on, you
DOC .
are, you know, deciding

to go or
know, whether,
you know, they want
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: And so
I'm talking to them
a bit
more now, but --
So it
appears to be,
like I
say, I
told them what, what you promised to do

know, for us, which is
HENRY: Umhum.
for us, you
for God,
right?
MR. KORESH: Because you're doing it

God.
for our
HENRY: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH= You know,

HENRY: Um-hum.
for our
belief
in God.
M. KORESH:
And, and so, therefore,
you
know, this
is to,
92
is the
be able
whole reason
for the
truth, anyway,
is to
to have what we believe known.
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: These people

and then you can ask us questions if
can decide
better,
we're alive.
92
25
HENRY: Right
MR. KORESH: And if know, no,

Two children,
two, two-of
we're gone, then, you with you guys, you know.

And
no good.
I agree
that's the, that's the main thing.

the women here.
HENRY: Okay. really appreciate it.
That sounds
real good.
MR. KORESH:
Okay? Now,
that's -- Now,
remember, they'redoing, they're doing this
--
H HENRY: I understand.
MR. KORESH: -- simply because, you know --
Now, I'm telling them

know, be So, you 100 percent, know, if
point-blank you
but still them on
all may
is in
not, you
God.
their faith the outside
you get
and all
that and
don't your do end of the bargain -HENRY: No, we will. But, you know, that,
that'll start, that'll start the ball
rolling and
we'll
both reachour goals. Okay?

MR. KORESH:
HENRY: Now --
Okay.
Well,
I'll --
MR. KORESH:
I'll tell
them that.
HENRY: Okay.
want to,
Now, what
as soon
Iwant
as Ican.
to do
is
I _
the
to get
your tape
One of
things that
we're considering, because a lot
in terms
of radio,
prime time is when the commute is on,

MR. KORESH: The what now?
okay?
- 26 92 I 92
HENRY: when the commuters are driving to

work is when primetime is on radioland, okay? So
you're working on the
soon. Is that correct?
tape and should have
it for
me
I M.
keep making it.
KORESH: Well,
if
I, if
I get
a chance to
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH: But prime
time, I
thought, was
the time the people are driving home, when they get
home in the evening.
HENRY: Well --
MR. KORESH: That's prime time.
HENRY: RadioI think

1 92
is, is
when everybody
mean, that's when
is going
to work, don't you think? I

listens to the radio.
everybody really
MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's not
really -the Dallas
Ask, ask the producersand they'll tell you said, you'll be playing
play Dallas and then. one first, right?
opposite. But, anyway,like I

HENRY: We're going to
we hope to go to national
right away.
'cause I'm sure,
like you say, the

especially if
coming.
subject matter'll be intense enough,

radio stations could broadcast that it's
HENRY: Exactly.
f '92.
you know,
27
MR. KORESH: You know? And

yeah, we could, like you said,
then that
way,
and Arizona
will be
from 11 to 1 or something,
HENRY: Um~hum. But --
right?
l MR.
KORESH: Okay,
that's good.
HENRY: But we want

We're not going to wait till
to go on this
11 o'clock.
right
away.
tape
MR. KORESH: Oh, no, needs to be given to you as
with the
tape, the
early as
possible.
we do that,
HENRY: Yes.
And as
soon as
we're going to go national.

then after that,
We'll go on KRLD and, and
we'll go national.
All right. And the national
M. KORESH:
'92
will be
11 o'clock,right?
HENRY: It'llbe as soon as,

after KRLD plays it.
as -
right
MR. KORESH: Well,
how can
that be
then? I
mean, howare you going to be able to get the tape to,

to Arizona?
HENRY:Well, we're -Everybody, or a of, a lot of

know, in
somebody, you
lot p
the national radio stations

area. So
know, that's a national
are here, you

to find
this general
we're going
radio --
.MR. KORESH: see. $0 I

be playing
,92.
you're going not to

play it at 11 and 12
it around
11 or
12 then?
HENRY: We're going to
28
o'clock, too. But,

coming out
you know, but, you
know --
MR. KORESH: Well, that's, that's when we're
then, around
11 and 12, national
time. Do
we have an agreement A HENRY:
on that? know, if that's -told me before.
Well, you
MR. KORESH: That's what you

92
HENRY: Well, I
MR. KORESH:
to/ld -I asked you twice.
HENRY: Okay.
And, and that's fine, I have

attention.
--
no problem.
I can to receive
I, you know, I want to get you as soon as

some medical
Yeah, I
M. KORESH:
HENRY: And that's why I've been wanting to

get, you know, working
here to find me a way
from my end, pushing the bosses

to get this into
prime time or
national
you some
radio station
medical attention.
or whatever,
so that I
like
can get
MR. KORESH: Okay. So,
I say,
I could
more than,
I could
more than last, I'm sure, till

Okay, well --
12
o'clock. It'll be our time, right?

HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:Like I
come all out.
say, that's when we'll

fine.
HENRY: Okay,
well, that's
MR. KORE$H= We're going to, we're going
to --
Like I say, once I get this tape
finished and,
V 92
29
like I
I ..-
said, I'm trying to get it done now. I mean,

HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
hurry upand get it
You know,
done.
I need
to get
it --
HENRY: Okay.
MR. KORESH= going to have two

HENRY: That's
And, and
I'm prettysure were two children.
women for
you and
Okay?
fine.
MR. KORESH:
HENRY: We're
Are we,
in tune.
are we
in tune?
M. KORESH:
HENRY: Thank MR. KORESH: to you later, okay?
Okay, thanks,
you. God bless
Henry.
you now.
We'll talk
HENRY: Okay,
I'll talk to you
later.
MR. KORESH: Okay. Call

what time is it right now?
me around -Well,
HENRY: It's a little

MR. KORESH:
after six.
give me a few
Already? Okay,
minutes here and then let me let this

HENRY: Okay.
bit.
out, okay?
I'll call you back
in a little
MR. KORESH:
Okay, bye.
HENRY: Bye-bye End of
Tape 10B.!
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
92 92
TAPE #1lA
03/02/93
92
DAVID: --
cut our
lines off
so I
can't talk
to the
radio programs.
They're tellingpeople that I'm

And the
out
not communicating
you all cut all
with them.
our lines
reason being
is
HENRY: Did,
that?
did --
was somebody
working on
DAVID: Well, know what's going on.
Jim said
so. But
you know,
we
HENRY: We want this thing
to be
resolved in
fine.
such a fashion that

We don't want anybody one. Number would like two, if for you
everybody
else to you have to -Wait
comes out
of this
get hurt.
That's number
a message,
we certainly
DAVID: Okay.
a second.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE the tower? What?
SPEAKER: Someone's
in
DAVID: Someone's in the -- they're, they're

coming in.
HENRY: No, they are not coming in. There

nobody anywhere close. look.
Hey, wait a minute. was --
is
DAVID: Okay,
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER: David
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: David
--
DAVID: What's he doing
on the
roof?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: What's he doing

on the roof --
w 92
3 HENRY: Who's on the roof?
DAVID: Wait
guys. HENRY:
a minute.
It may
be one
of our
It's got to be.

MALE SPEAKER: - looks like
" UNIDENTIFIED
he's in -- it's one of

DAVID:
the tower
sentinels.
Okay. SPEAKER: Oh, Shit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE
HENRY:
Itfs, it's
got to
be one
of yours.
Because our only, the

DAVID:
people only reason
are not
moving in.
Nobody is. in is --
The
we're going to move

minute.
Wait a
HENRY: DAVID:
is to
pick up
the kids. in background in background not
Unidentified voice Unidentified voice
discernible.! What?
not discernible.!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
SPEAKER: Tell
him
--
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: They

going to shoot -DAVID:
were just
Okay. I'msorry. What's your
name,
Harry?
HENRY: DAVID: HENRY: DAVID:
Henry.
Henry, I'm sorry. That's okay, David.
Okay. Now
I asked,
I asked present
Jim, I -I mean,
said Jim,
listen.
If they'll let me
92
Q
.~
C
4
you know,
how much
this is
you respect
our lives.
our lives.
You know,
this depends
if a man
on
had
You know,
a --
let's say I was before a firing

at least one last cigarette, Absolutely. If you radio, you HENRY:
squad. You would

wouldn't you?
give me
DAVID: Okay. show one I mean, today. You

all that.
would just know, get from this
allow me people -system air time
to
or two I know
seals on
it's asking a lot
know everything
I'm, I'm aware of
HENRY: Um-hum.
costs money,
that.
and
DAVID: And
I've spent thousands of
dollars,
you know.
0 92_
I've been traveling and
trying to
get the
message out.
HENRY: Um-hum.
DAVID: If
know, the seals the way
you'd justlet me
I see them.
present, you
HENRY: Uh-huh. DAVID: You

to judge for themselves. HENRY: I'll tell you DAVID: And arrange something then based we all what -upon that,
_ people would be able
know, then
we can
to where
come out.
HENRY: Okay.
I will
work on
exactly that.
And you telling me,

putting myself
/' 92
David, I'm trusting you.

in your hands that if I
And I'm
can
totally
;1
arrange to
out. .
have
you do
that that
everybody will
come
DAVID
:What
I'm saying is is
this. I'm
saying
that once
I'm able to present

you don'tcut me
this if
you
don't, you
individuals, if
right, where me from
the points
off and
know, don't do like
what's been happening so me off. You know,
far, hitting regard
everyone cuts with the
the side
questions that
make then
do not
I'm trying to
HENRY DAVID HENRY
we'll come out. me --me and

--
:You're telling : I'mtelling you :You are telling

word that
that --
you're -- and
I'm holding you to your

DAVID HENRY
= Is
:--
if I
can make
what I
arrangements to
will do is I
have
you talk
to the
radio and
will work
on, on
what. We
have you
will
talking to,
-- what
to a
radio --
I'll tell you

work on
I'll dois I'll try to
getting you
something totally
and completely
different
from anything that you've had before in such

that, that we can present this, and it will go
a fashion
out to a
lot of
willing to
radio stations.
make a tape?
How's that? Would you be
' DAVID
:A
tape? It's better if
I give
it
live. I
mean, you know, I don't need to

know, like I say I'd like to
make a tape.
hear it.
Because, you
HENRY:
Okay.
DAVID: Make
nationwide or
HENRY outside? DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY I'm -DAVID that. HENRY DAVID HENRY
sure it's going, you
know,
whatever.
Okay. Could
you come
out and
do that
I can't We'll --
move.
I can
do it
on the
phone -out.
-- we'll carry you

N0.
I'm saying if, if
you want
to do
it.
No, see,
there again
we can'tdo
I'm, I'm -- I was just

On, on --
asking --
-- if
you wanted
to do
it that
way.
If you
don't, okay.
DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY: DAVID HENRY
On the
telephone.
On a telephone? On the Okay.

And you
Let me
telephone.
know -work on that.
Okay, then
Okay.
get back
with me.
Okay?
f 92
DAVID: Because
by --
I indiscernible!
I'm losing
HENRY: Okay.
Let me
just ask
you something.
We were working on ready togsend
getting some more kids
more kids out?
out. Are
you
a couple
DAVID: Well,
let's, let's work
on this
now.
And because this avenue
like I
told Jim, be still
I said
Jim,
you know, because he's supposed to with me. I -what

HENRY: Well,
working
did he
do now?
he's, youknow, he'sbeen
forever. We'regoing to
of a break. You understand
DAVID: Yeah.
I 92
have to
that?
give him
a little
bit
HENRY: Okay. work with you in the same
And I'll- and fashion that he
I promise has. Now
to let
me, let
consider
me just propose a couple

them, okay?
DAVID: Okay.
of things to
you. You
HENRY: One
of the things that
I want
to
propose is
if we make a tape
with crazy
that.
recording, one
of the
things that we
interrupt you
anything like
ensure is that nobody is going to

questions or comments or
DAVID: Okay.
then maybe
/ 92-
What we'll do then is we'll,

and a video. And
we'll -maybe we can make a tape you can play that.
HENRY: Now do you

DAVID: Yes, HENRY: Okay. working on
this end:
have, do
you have a
video?
we have
high eight. don't you start on it from
Well, why I will
that, and
start working
DAVID: Okay.
something. HENRY: Okay. DAVID: That
I'm coming from.
All right,
then we'lldo
Now I'm going to way at least you'll
a little ~know where
HENRY: I'mgoing to
time so that Ican, so that
need
I can
a little
bit of
this. In the
work on
meantime, can
we get
--
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: -some more children out or do
you -~
a
DAVID: Let's just hold off until we get this
spot figured
out, all HENRY: Okay.
right?
DAVID:
Ineed,
Ineed
some -see,
Igave,
gave Jim some money,

HENRY: Yes.
right?
We have the money here.
DAVID: And phone, because

people use
he was going to
pick me bad. A
up a lot of
line.
our phone's really pretty

we needed, we needed
them and
a better
Okay? Because
you know
we're -Imean
well,
Ican't
92
move, so
we're long extension. HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: And
so if
we can get a new
line and
phone from, you know, like I

for it. I
said I was going to pay
HENRY: Okay.
- DAVID:
Then we'd have better

But do this for
reception.
me, because
HENRY: Okay.
need to have these people, these

they're always real pushy.
DAVID HENRY DAVID: F 92 HENRY:
bosses, you know,

that?
You understand
--
I realize
Okay.
- you got a lot of chiefs there.
Right. Send
me two more kids while
we're working on this

DAVID: I'll
so that they
do that.
can, you know --
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Okay?
Okay.
HENRY: So what I'll do is

DAVID: I'm glad you
children like I do because I have --
whenever you for the
have a concern
HENRY: Yes.
Okay. What
we will
do is
will
start working
on this,
okay. And
it's either
going to be a video
and the audio, or at least
we're
going to get radio. But I'll get you something. Or I'll go to work on getting you something. Okay?
92
10
DAVID: Yeah.
Let's, let's -- like I
say
you'll, then you'll know,understand where

from.
I'm coming
HENRY: Okay.
But I
want you
to understand,
okay, I'm going to

that -DAVID: I
hold you
this. You're telling me
--
HENRY: --
that you're
going to
send
everybody out.
I'm goingto want
everybody out.
DAVID: Okay.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Do
what you
can though.
HENRY: Okay. I'm going to send a

DAVID: You .HENRY: Can we get the
But send pick up
me a couple of the two kids.
kids.
car to
got the
van there it, I'll send
now? the van out.
I'll send van over
there?
DAVID: Yeah,
well,
give me
a call
or --
HENRY: Okay.
now.
The van is going there
right
DAVID: Okay. HENRY: And this and I'll call in the in a meantime, I'll little bit. work on
you back
DAVID: Okay. HENRY: Thank

DAVID: Bye.
Thanks. you, David.
92
11
HENRY: Bye~bye.
[gap]
iii
UNIDENTIFIED MALE transmission.
SPEAKER: Blew
the
UNIDENTIFIED MALE [sap]
SPEAKER: Oh,
good.
STEVE
HENRY STEVE
Hello?
iii
HENRY srzvs
Hello, David?
This
is Steve.
Is this
Henry?
Yes, Steve.
DAVID HENRY
Henry --
do you
want
to
talk
here?
Okay. You The car

Okay.
ready? is ready to pick up the kids
DAVID HENRY
DAVID HENRY: DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY: DAVID: HENRY: DAVID: Yeah.
Do you have the
kids ready?
Okay.
Why don't --screaming

Are you
Oh, God.
in pain!
--
okay? Are
you okay?
I'm back.
Are you
okay?
I'm bleeding again.

Geez.
I coughed.
Wait a
minute.
12
Groaning.
!Oh,
boy.
It got
me by surprise.
'
HENRY: Um
DAVID: the back. starts it
Got the
one hole
in the
front, one
in
And whe
nI
-- if
I laugh
or if
I cough
it
up again.
HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID: HENRY: u 0 Sure.
Groaning.! Boy. which kids

When --- are
Okay. going --
are you
okay --
you going out --
to send
down? Would
you be
int
erested DAVID: HENRY: DAVID:
in sending Jamie. His
name's Jamieand Joshua.
Who's, who -- how
old are
they? So you
all that.
Well, Jamie'san invalid.

got a special chair and
have to
be
-- you HENRY: DAVID:
Okay.
The social
workers here
in town
they --
oh, man.
They know him.
And Joshua,
he's, I
How o1d's
guess he's about -
- how o1d's Joshua now, 6?
Joshy? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE

Joshua's 7
DAVID:
SPEAKER: Seven.
He's turned
6.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Joshua's 7.

DAVID: HENRY:
Oh, he's 7 now?

And Jamie?
Okay. He's7.
13
DAVID: And
Jamie he's
-Nine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
DAVID:
SPEAKER: Nine.
He's 9 but he's like 3,
you know,
4.
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID = Okay?
HENRY: Are
DAVID: No.
they your
kids?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID:
Okay. We'll send a

you know, that tells
little, little
you their closest
paper with
them,
to kin
and, and
all that
stuff, okay?
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: Groaning.! HENRY: I presented, I presented the

idea.
And, and so far

But we, we have
it's looking, you

a bit of a problem
know, pretty
in terms of
good.
the
time. Can
could work
you make a -with so that

a recorder?
do you have something you can make
that
you
an audiotape?
Do
you have
DAVID: Yeah,
And it's, it's sophisticated.
but I
just can't
get
to it.
HENRY: They
DAVID: We
can't bring it over

can't, we can't do
to you?
a little video?
to do
HENRY: Well,
see, what
we're hoping
and, and because this is a serious situation,

DAVID: Yeah, it's very serious.
okay.
92
92
14 HENRY :
we're hoping to, to
get this
to
serious Christian
you know,
broadcasting network
that would,
type national,
that would
broadcasting network
give us
thing.
maybe, you
know, nationwide
coverage on
this
DAVID: HENRY:
Uh-huh.
And if get it
we talk
in terms to, to --
of a video,
by the
time we
DAVID:
from here
it edited,
To have
transferred over
to -HENRY: DAVID: Yeah.
-to
10 --
is it
10 -
I forgot
yeah.
what
millimeter, 30,
HENRY: DAVID: HENRY:
33, 35 millimeter. Anyway,

Um~hum. Umhum.
I know So if,
what you're saying. if -do you -- if we could,
if we
could -DAVID:
Steve, how
you think some, you
many, how
we could know, take
many -break out of down the
do you
know where
~- do
studio and
bring
the rack
and bring
some indiscernible!
and stuff recorder
in.
Because we need to do an unedited, high

Okay.
STEVE: DKVID: STEVE:
fidelity tape.
Get Greg.
Okay.
Greg would
know how to do
it,
AU.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS
TAPE #112
-HENRY 03/02/93
GARCIA
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

Court Reporting
D.C. Area
Depositions
01! 261-1902
Balt. &
Annap. 10!
974-0947
2 RIT?92: HENRY: RITA: HENRY: DAVID: HENRY: DAVID it's -HENRY: DAVID Hello?
Rita?
Just a
Hello?
minute, please.
Hello?
How are
you doing?
I'm, I'm trying to
finish up.
Imean
You making
progress?
Oh, yeah.
I'm trying, trying to

it?
get
it done.
It's,it's raining outside, isn't

HENRY:
Well, I'm inside of

t have a window.
a room.
Ican't
really --
Idon
Well, that's,that's heavy rain.

Is that right?
Yeah. Okay,
yeah. Let
me finish
this up,
another 15
and I'll get right

minutes, okay?
HENRY: DAVID HENRY: DAVID: HENRY: About --
with you.
We should -
Call me
in about
-be
finished.
In about
I5 minutes?
Right.
Okay. You the stuff.
- and That is
we're still on-line Imean we still
for the
rest of
have the two womenand, and two, and two kids that
Court Reporting
D.C. Area 01! 261-1902
Depositions
Balt.
& Annap.
10! 974-0947
92
will --
C_
it.
DAVID
:Right.
Yeah, they
said they'll do
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: HENRY DAVID HENRY DAVID match.
Okay.
Okie doke?
Okay.
Okay. Let Okay. Very
me get good.
back on
this then.
Oh, boy.
I feel
like I
to keep
did a boxing
it short
HENRY: Okay.
Now try
because, you know, the, these peopleare not going to

want to play something that's real long, okay?
DAVID HENRY DAVID be? HENRY
Okie doke.
Okay.
I mean how long
do they
want it
to
Well, you
for Jim
How long
know, remember the, the

before?
was that?
thing that
you did
DAVID HENRY
About half
a page
or so.
You know,
you
-DAVID HENRY
Oh, that?
You, you
know --
don't have to make
it that
short. But
you
FREE STATE REPORTING,

Court Reporting
D.C. Area 01! 261-1902
INC.
974-0947
Depositions
Balt. &
Annap. 10!
92
DAVID HENRY:
All right.
But, but
like that.
don't make it like
a half
hour or
something
DAVID
Like make the Okay.
Isaid,
Ihave
to make
it-- at
least wanted
to
HENRY: DAVID HENRY DAVID: HENRY:
point, okay?
Okay, thanks. Okay.
Okay, bye.
I'll talk to
iii
you later.
Bye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE right?
SPEAKER: Is
that all
RECORDED MESSAGE:We're sorry. Your call
did not go through. Will you please hang up and try

your call again
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #1: Okay, now.

mean I'll check
on --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER #2: Are they,

they in -iii
are
DAVID: Hello?
HENRY: Hello,
DAVID: Yeah.
David?
HENRY: How are you
doing?

Court Reporting
D.C. Area
Depositions
01! 261-1902
Balt. &
Annap. 10!
974-0947
DAVID HENRY DAVID: HENRY: DAVID
We --
it's there.
'
Okay. Is
Yeah.
the tape
done?
Okay.
Is the
-- have
they left
yet? Have
they left
yet? Unidentified
voice in
background not
discernible.! Wait
one second.
Have they left yet?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE
DAVID HENRY: DAVID HENRY DAVID HENRY
SPEAKER: Yes.
Okay. You
No.
got them
yet down
there?
Well, they,
they should
be there.
Who has the tape? The older lady, Katherine.
Do you know about how long the tape
is?
DAVID HENRY: DAVID HENRY:
It's almost an hour.

An hour? Almost.
You know, you realize
that, you
know
-DAVID
Well, that's, that's -- I made
it a
simple and direct as possible. I

with any less than that.
couldn't get away

I may not be able, I
HENRY: You realize that

"Niall --

Court Reporting Depositions D.C. Area 01! 261-1902 Balt. & Annap. 10! 974-0947
O
DAVID: I'll
HENRY: I, I--
Q
6
pay them.
DAVID: How much do they want?

HENRY: I, I--
- DAVID:
I'll pay for the
time.
HENRY: I understand what you're saying. I

don't have control over that. What I, what I'll do is
I'll do the best that I

nothing to do with
can. But
Iwant
you to
understand if that it comes chopped out it up, has

me. You know we're, we --look. It's -DAVID: Well, have, have
HENRY: I'll,I'll work on it. I'll work very hard for you. You know
You know, and that. Because I
want, I
want to resolve this

DAVID: Yeah. HENRY: You know
as just
as much as you do.
This -that.
DAVID: This
tape, like
I say,
if it's
played, you know, everything, all right,

the whole
everything's going to be say it's, it
you know.
story got
HENRY: Uh-huh.
Because it's like I

started. And I'll --
introduces so perfectly, you
know, what the whole, how
DAVID: It,
HENRY: Okay.
DAVID: SO --
it tells
Now do
the whole
--
story.

92 92
D.C. Area 01! 261-1902 Balt. E Annap. 10! 974-0947
Court Reporting
Depositions

WACO TX Negotiation Transcripts

Diunggah oleh

Informasi Dokumen

Hak Cipta

Format Tersedia

Bagikan dokumen Ini

Bagikan atau Tanam Dokumen

Opsi Berbagi

Apakah menurut Anda dokumen ini bermanfaat?

Apakah konten ini tidak pantas?

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

WACO TX Negotiation Transcripts

Diunggah oleh

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

TAPES # 1, 2 & February 28,

MR. KAVANAUGH: Sunday the28th of February.

I MR.KAVANAUGH: going I&#39;m tomess up this

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I dOn&#39;t know,

if you leave indiscernible! David&#39;s our got number.

TELEPHONE OPERATOR: Cellular One

they dropped -- are they -- well, just Indiscernible female

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: SteveSnyder,

he needs people, you

the communications all our

that&#39;s not ours and ringing!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Indiscernible!

He ain&#39;t picking up.

out, there&#39;s a car

going down Beverly

what I&#39;ve been

David, listen me and No, no, --

even scratched the surface.

I&#39;ve always loved law enforcement becauseyou all guys

MR. KORESH: MR. KAVANAUGH:

I&#39;m so, I&#39;m so sorry that

ask you something.

MR. KAVANAUGH=Your, your

other wounded condition? I,

I MR. KORESH: They&#39;re, they re not

MR. KAVANAUGH: Is anybody

we can&#39;t help them

MR. KORESH: No, they&#39;re, they&#39;re bandaged

MR. KAVANAUGH: Have you got them bandaged

MR. KAVANAUGH: Okay. Okay, and you think

MR. KORESH:Well, yeah,

MR. KAVANAUGH: How are you doing?

u MR. KORESH: It&#39;s, it&#39;s like -- I said, it&#39;s,

MR. KAVANAUGH: Bleeding bad, huh?

MR. KAVANAUGH: Now see,

pressure on that because it slows

down the bleeding.

with that? towel&#39;s real

Well, it&#39;s -- the

MR. KAVANAUGH: Tight, yeah.

MR. KORESH: -- the

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah. Anything else hurting?

M. KAVANAUGH: Your feelings,

don&#39;t worry about that.

We&#39;re, we&#39;re trying to, you

since I&#39;ve been talking to you, but, you know, feel,

anyway -MR . KAVANAUGH :Yeah .

MR. KORESH: But like, you know, like I say,

let&#39;s, let&#39;s get some preachers and teachers and stuff

MR. KAVANAUGH: You know, I, I

there&#39;s guys two in the

world otherthan you and me

MR. KORESH: I know, see, there you&#39;re,

you&#39;re doing your job. Come on, you know, you&#39;re

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I&#39;m, I&#39;m being truthful

MR. KAVANAUGH: -- I want it to stop and I

MR. KORESH: You know there&#39;s way no tostop

this until, like I told you, just giveme the coverage.

MR. KORESH: If you let those, if you let

those men, the so-called[cut off and on]let them talk

KAVANAUGH= Well, you onething, David,

you would let us help you, you know, your

I MR.KAVANAUGH: going I'm tomess up this

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: I dOn't know,

if you leave indiscernible! David's our got number.

that's not ours and ringing!

He ain't picking up.

out, there's a car

what I've been

I've always loved law enforcement becauseyou all guys

I'm so, I'm so sorry that

I MR. KORESH: They're, they re not

we can't help them

MR. KORESH: No, they're, they're bandaged

u MR. KORESH: It's, it's like -- I said, it's,

with that? towel's real

Well, it's -- the

don't worry about that.

We're, we're trying to, you

since I've been talking to you, but, you know, feel,

let's, let's get some preachers and teachers and stuff

there's guys two in the

MR. KORESH: I know, see, there you're,

you're doing your job. Come on, you know, you're

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, I'm, I'm being truthful

MR. KORESH: You know there's way no tostop

MR. KORESH: Now, I'm responsible forthat,

on] andthey won't go outthere. So I hired a guy

MR. KAVANAUGH: Hold on, what's that, okay?

MR. KORESH= I've got to, I've got to

David's to got -- he wants

but they're looking right

book. You know if there's God a in Heaven, they're in

MR. KORESH: They're, they're eating right

don't nothing want to happen to them and I kmow you

men, I told them, I said they aren't really mean men,

MR. KORESH= - because no one like's daddy's

MR. KORESH: Yeah, they're - you know,

they're, they're - like I said, we got some nurses and

they've tourniquet me and they, they

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, don't drink alcohol.

MR. KAVANAUGH: Yeah, we don't want you to

No, there'sno comfortable

but don't it,

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, buddy, hey, that's not,

MR. KORESH: Hey, that's, that's what they'd

MR. KORESH:Come on, it's a federal

There'smany too people that

That's what Rome --

MR. KAVANAUGH: No, you're not the bad guys,