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Report on One day seminar on Labour migration, labour market and labour rights June 8th 2013 at KBRI Den Haag prepared by Indra Fadli, Intan Ardita & Yasmine Soraya

Background Labour migration has existed for centuries. People migrate from one place to another to seek a better life. There are various reasons behind the migration process such as social & cultural reason, economic reason and political reason. Mostly, people migrate for economic reasons, to have a decent life with dignity. And the act of migrating is a right of all human beings in the world no matter how they migrate (formally or informally). In the era globalisation nowadays, EU has applied a freedom of movement for the citizen of EU. EU Citizens are free to move and work in member countries. Some types of migrants in EU are au pairs, migrant workers, students, migrants coming based on family reunification and as refugee/ asylum seekers. EU countries are also open for migrant workers from third country national, in fact, the opportunity for migrant workers in EU is one of the goals of EU 2020. Indonesian workers should also take an active participation in such opportunities. There are 6,2 million of migrant workers from Indonesia working abroad in all sectors, formal and informal and the Netherlands is one of the countries of destination. Since 1950s, Indonesian people migrate to the Netherlands (Gusnelly:2005). Indonesian workers in the Netherlands come from various groups. Indonesian students who have graduated have one year opportunity to find a job in the Netherlands. Netherlands is also open for highly qualified workers coming from Indonesia. However, they find difficulties to compete in the labour market. As migrants from third country nationals, Indonesian people face some barriers (eg. language barrier). There are also some opportunities such as become Phd student or engage with EU blue card system. Some are succeed but some are not and even become undocumented domestic workers. Brain waste become the consequences. Since 1970s Netherlands government opened the opportunity for Indonesian nurses to come and work in the Netherlands. It is G to G program (Government to Government program). There are some succeed story and a lot of Indonesian nurses stay and work in the Netherlands up to recent

time. However, the program is stopped meanwhile there is an estimation in 2015 that the Netherlands needs 8000-26.000 nurses (arbeidsmarktinformatie Zorg en Welzijn). The competition with Filipino nurses & workers from East Europe is high and the regulation which does not support the migrant nurses to get permanent resident caused a lot of nurses become undocumented. Again, immigration status is the issue for migrant workers. There is also a sectors which is filled by a large number of Indonesian workers and that is the domestic sectors. Based on the study of FNV Bondgenoten, there are 100.000 households need domestic workers. A lot of Indonesian fulfil this sector however, there is no specific regulation (yet) on this sector particularly for migrant domestic workers (unless for domestic workers at diplomats or embassies). Indonesian people who work in this sector face immigration status problem. They remain as undocumented workers. And as undocumented, they are vulnerable to all forms of abuse and exploitation. Issues What are the opportunities in the Netherlands for Indonesian workers particularly in the crisis period like now? How big is the labour market particularly with the political situation which is not friendly for migrants? How is the protection of labour rights in the Netherlands? How is the protection of immigration status, meanwhile to migrate is one of human rights? Aim and purposes The aim and purpose of this event is to examine the situation of labour migration nowadays, the opportunities in the labour market, to share issues and experiences and to think of recommendations for further steps regarding how this will help developments in Indonesia.

Presentation I on the overview on Labour Migration & Labour Market for migrant workers in Europe and in the Netherlands and political tension behind it by Prof. Klara Boonstra (Vrije Universiteit, Legal counsel of FNV)
In the 70s or 80s the policy concerning migrant workers in the Netherlands have different largely from one decade to the other. In the 1950s, when the Indonesian started to come after the liberation , the people were nicely blended into the society and the labour market in that time was easily absorb these workers. But of course it was different economic times and it was only at Dutch labour market. Today, were talking about European labour market and European Laws. Because Dutch government and dutch legislation is not strong as they were before. There was time when migrant workers were easy for migrant workers to settle here, there was time when they were invited with open arms to come here to work and there was time which was strict for migrant workers. This time is also strict for some groups of migrant workers, even though it is still open for small groups of migrant workers. And the policy of Dutch government today has 2 faces; very lenient for EU citizen and very restrictive for migrant workers (non EU citizens). The legal gap between EU citizens and others (non eu) - legal gap - is widening, becomes worse between documented or undocumented especially from third countries. This is not to say that it is easy for all EU countries, this is not to say for all EU citizen for example migrant workers from Poland, Hungary, Romania and etc. The main political policy behind migration is that Dutch economy has to benefit from migration. That is the main philosophy: The Dutch economy, not the Dutch society has to benefit from migration, in which it is very restrictive perspective. The movement in changing legislation is not much, for example there is a convention for domestic workers 2 years ago but it is difficult for the Dutch population to stand for it. The main law of migration states that alien is not allowed to work in the Netherlands, not without the work permit. That is the starting point. And 1. Work permit is attached with residence permit. The second rule is 2. a work permit is not issued to a worker, but to employer. In order for a worker to work in a company in The Netherlands, the employer should file a work permit. This situation isolates the labour status of the worker from his actual activity. And because of this; also the workers is very much at the mercy of the employer. if the worker lose his employer , he lose his rights to be here. The employer has power over the employee. The impact is not only for working

permit but also for the residence permit. Its different with the system of green card which gives power to the worker. 3. No work permit shall be issued if there is a sufficient local labour supply on the labour market. If there is Dutch or EU citizen can do the job then working permit will be not issued. Working permit is not only issued for one employer, but can be issued for more than one employer. These are the general rules. There is also a regulation for au pairs but its actually a cultural exchange. Labour law is not applicable to au pairs. There are also workers at international organisation or embassies, and the category of high skilled migrants. If there is a need on labour market, it is for highly skilled workers and mostly they come from India in IT sector. Since no work permit shall be issued if there is a sufficient labour supply, we carry the burden of proof there is no local supply. What about domestic workers? (which most of them are migrants). Theres a thin line between domestic workers and care workers. Furthermore what about the workers based on their specialty. For example Chinese cook, now the government say there are plenty of Chinese cook on labour market. Another rule is in the Netherlands, the employer should pay at least minimum wage. This is good but can be obstacle also since it is not hourly minimum wage but monthly minimum wage. So you cannot start working part time, and work your way up to full time. In some cases, specifically for the migrant workers working in agriculture, the employer should provide housing. The Ministry of Social Affair are the one who issues the work permit, but it has delegate it to the UWV; special agent who put the work permit. We have also Labour Inspectorate. If an employer, employs a worker without a permit a severe fine will be given to the employer. In some cases, if the violation continues, the employer would be given a jail sentence. As to the worker, they would lose their job. The protective law of Dutch labour law states that wages should be paid and should not be dismissed without good cause, employer should pay the worker in case of the worker is getting ill. Thus the Dutch Labour law are applicable to all citizen not just the EU and the Dutch; as long the Dutch Labour Law apply. - for anybody who work here- it's private law/common law. Even for regular worker, it's difficult to bring your employer to court, most of cases are dismissal cases. There is a denial, that actually Dutch labour market does require a work force of domestic work. There is need for domestic work and care work, there is actually a place in the labour market for people to come and work here. The denial is laid down in rules, so we do let people come in here, but then we declare them illegal or not officially working or deny them the rights. The migrant worker are actually working here and the idea should be of course there is some sort of registration, but if its not the economy that has to benefit then the society has to benefit which is totally a different concept. Pretty much all the labour that could be outsourced to other country i.e. textile industry, leather industry and other manufacturing, has been outsourced a long time ago. What we have actually done is we imported part of the labour market from third countries, but we want this labour in the same condition on the third world condition. This is how its done and regulated; its not undocumented or unregulated, its regulated but outside the regular rules and this is the great

injustice that has been done and this is also how we should look at it. The consequences now that migrant workers are either high potential or formal workers; and when they are informal workers, we are very eager to push them towards victims of abuse. People always start to think from victimization point of view but the starting point is how to giving rights as the other workers.

Presentation II on UN Covention 1990, Vreemdelingenwet and the proposal of Strafbaarstelling/ Criminalisation of undocumented migrants by Marijke Bijl (St. OKIA)
In 1950s, where migrant workers were welcomed as workers, and I heard the note that in these days who came in contracts, but also people who become outside the contract and they have no real permission, which called as contagious migrant. Throughout the years the additional of the worker, focusing on the reality refer to all migrants who are allowed to work here, but also there is also sector in which traditionally work migrants without permit. Indonesia is a country that signed and ratified the convention of the UN on the rights and protection for migrant workers and member of their family. This is an UN instrument that defines rights for all migrant workers and their families. It is interesting to look at, because migrant workers are workers but they are human beings. We should take care that all treaties and rights of human beings are also for the migrants workers. All the rights are under treaties. The Netherlands, they signed lot human rights treaties and they did not sign this one. For instance, right to live or not to behold this labour. The right should be freedom of thought, consent, and religion, right to hold opinion, freedom of discretion, right of medical care, a child has a right to a name registration of burden nationality, basic right access to education. The interesting thing is that the convention says these are rights that are for documented migrants but also for undocumented migrants. In Netherlands, these are the particular rights that are also accepting the Netherland but also for undocumented migrants. medical care, education etc. are quiet recently arranged also for undocumented migrants. The NL do not ratify the UN Conv. since there is an article about social security which the NL could not accept such article. As Klara Boonstra talked about the labour law, which is not excluding undocumented migrants, also they could go to court. How can we strengthen the idea? The image of migrant workers change. The spontaneous migrants who came as illegal migrants. The employer would be punished and the worker could be arrested. There was one time the undocumented have social security number and pay taxes per month when the worker and the employer allow it. Early 1990s, 80% of the workers were paying taxes. Since 1998, there was an important rule towards the undocumented migrants on the linking all the important issues to migration status. Every law describes the right's referring to the migration status. Undocumented migrants have no right on this apart from education, health care and legal.

Workers that probably undocumented workers would never go to the court. But we saw that in the time when they paid taxes and premises. At the end of the relationship with the employer, they went to the court and said, "We can prove, we didn't get all the money". They also worked there for a long time. So, in this sense this law has had the effect that worker who did pay taxes or didn't do it. But there is position towards the employer who cannot prove so well their relationship with the employee. The undocumented workers go to the labour inspection. The labour inspection has a task to control labour insurance and wages as well as labour market. According to the proposal of criminalisation ,aliens who stay in the Netherlands could make offend on the sanction of fine. the Dutch government want to penalise the illegal stay . The fine is not paid and it can be replaced by detention. Aliens, more often, are crime because there are undocumented stay in The Netherlands which heavy "punishment", the length is 5 year after entering the Netherlands (entry ban). The labour inspection would not help much for the labour worker. For example, the worker for farm in the south of The Netherlands is not the worker who directly came to complaint and even there is a possibility for them to go back to their country. In this cases, the workers' voice is hard, a lot is happening. _____________________ Discussion moderated by Dr.Ratna saptari R: Starting from the right to work and the right as a human beings to work in a foreign country. I think the first and second speaker, Klara Boonstra and Marijke Bijl, have opened up the whole complexity of the issue. Starting from the legislation that means also protection. But once we open up, we discover all kinds of complex contents as well as contradiction sometimes. We have also the level of national policy of different institutions who have different interests so that it has different impacts on the workers that we also have to deal with the issue of different labour markets, different groups. When defending one group, we are also excluding other groups. So how do we deal with that? The two speakers have discussed, so now we can have the maximum and the optimum of bringing up all that questions involved. Ibu Solita Sarwono, International Independent Consultant: Experience in dealing with the coming of Indonesian "services" to The Netherlands. The end of 1990s until early 2000, due to the high amount in the nursing sector, the minister of health in here had a project with the minister of health in Indonesia to send nurses from Indonesia to here. Why Indonesia? Because the certificate or diploma of nurses in Indonesia still recognized and valued same high as the Dutch nurses, which they do not have to take any examination. What they need from there is only learning Dutch language and have to pass the Dutch language test. It is only 2 years working and work as full-time nurses. The training is for 5 - 6 years and they put into different institution, hospital as well as nursing house. The problem was many of the migrants wanted to continue working to get the job here, from both side nurses and the institution. The Dutch patients like Indonesian nurses very much, because they are caring and patient. So this nurses wanted to continue working here. The problem arrived in relation to the permit. Like Prof. Boostra said there are two different kinds of permits, work permit and residence permit. Then they asked the resident permit to IND and IND said "no, you have to get the

work permit from your employer". The employer said, "no, we cannot give you because you do not have resident permit". It made back and forward of the process. Another problem is many female workers when they got married here. Within the 2 years is no problem with that. But the problem is many of the nurses after they got married; they no longer work as the nurses. The minister of health at that time, She said, "no, it is not our intention to get them here". Thats why they are stopped, also with the complicated law of EU and minister of health - they stop because they have many problem of sending Indonesian nurse to here. However, the Indonesian still trains the nurse in Dutch, it is very big investment. But it has not security that this nurse can be placed here. K: what it makes me think what need of the other side, for instance they had been in longer contract. But I can also imagine, if you are young woman and this is an opportunity. You probably do not expect to meet someone to married, so from all concerns. I think you should always set the actual situation of starting point. What kind of complex, what kind of arrangement should have been offered to these women in order to make successful for all the parties involved? Can you think what would have invested in this situation? Ibu Solita Sarwono: They are here and the result of another affords to take the nurses. This is another project. Then mostly the nurses married to elderly Dutch man. R: I think this is quiet important because quiet often, when we are talking about the labour market we forget about the personal side of these people. That is often beyond of our business. But quiet often their position as wife somehow we consume also in the labour market. in the sense to what extend do we allow the whole thing about homeworking, part-time job, fulltime job. What makes somebody fulfil the criteria to be protected? If there are in the families, where they have children and nobody are very patriarchal husband or whatever where all the domestic work has to be done by the wife. They have to earn money. So what does the labour markets offer to migrant women, who also have to deal with children and with husband. How do we bring this into the picture that you have brought out? Ibu Solita Sarwono. I saw a few; they are also successful when they got married. They still continue to work and care their children. They continue to work as nurse and some are very entrepreneurs and got their own business in the nurse and the care sector. It also takes the personality of the person to take the initiative. R: It is not about failure of success, but about what kind of structure allowed this or not. Then we could go to this direction about to what extent labour market actually and also protection for people who are not able to work fulltime but they want to work and under this kind of circumstances with family, obligations, and how would you response to that? M: I agree. People who have a short contract; they stay and married. The work is depending on the employer. If they are married just to stay here, then they are also depending on their husband. Why should they make a longer contract, if they plan to get married? They can make their own choices. But they can continue work as nurse. It seems not to be because that first love, you meet someone then you get married. But this is not about meeting a man you love and want to stay with but to stay in The Netherlands. So that is another issue. So, if you want nurses, then with a good contract.

Y: There was also shared from nurses. They have opportunity to work in The Netherlands. But The Netherlands gives only the contract to the maximum years before they can have the permanent resident permit. So that is one problem of the nurses. R: So that is the legislation side or the policies side of the government. Y: And some of them, they stay without document in The Netherlands or getting married with the Dutch people. The nurses said in 2015, there will be another opportunity for the nurses to work here. I want to ask the Embassy, Pak Imam maybe. How the Indonesian government approach the Netherlands government in regard on this issue? I: Actually, my self, I do not any information for this, because this is dealing with the economic section. But I heard that Indonesian government spoke so many times to our authority person in Jakarta to develop more cooperation with Netherlands government to increase our number of nurses. But this is still under discussion. The problem is the policy in the Netherlands; they just need high skilled labour. They try to narrow to accept other category of the labour in the Netherlands. It is so tough for us to make discussion and then negotiation with Netherlands government. P2: Driven from the cases of the nursing, it is very impressive. They describe in the embassy, there is also state that we have to take a test for the MVV, which is difficult for us. Coming here, process the job. What is the equalization about this kind of thing? Some people come here and the process is very difficult in MVV. These people have the same treatment, because we also struggle from the zero. How is the equalization of this status? Ibrahim, member of Diaspora: I surprised that diaspora is not included in this meeting. We have project for nurses that the failure because the nurses are not capable to communicate with the other staffs from the hospitals. The communication, education and communication to the people who ill; because of that, the project failed. My experience is that Indonesian people come here and hardly speak any English, very bad or very low and cannot speak Dutch. That is the big problem. R: The communication is the language problem, not short of psychological problem. Ibrahim: Before they come, they should learn Dutch. Then they have been more qualified. R: Does anyone know about other non-Indonesian nurses? K: I think the South African failed too. Philippines also. R: So it is not just Indonesian. But Philippines can speak better English maybe. Usually they are very popular among the employers. Tamara, phd student at ISS: During my 8 months between my master and my PHD, I also experience all this issue about being a migrant worker looking for a job in Holland, highly skilled migrant; because of my Diploma. This problematic, I also have a friend from Japan who works or tries to find a work. It is problematic, because we are labour highly skilled migrant workers. Yet we ask our selves, why are we migrant and others are expat? I want to take this discussion a little bit further and connected with the language issue, because then we found out the things the assumptions of

migrants, we might assume that migrants only applied to low skilled labour and highly skilled labour are not supposed to be migrants. Then yet, we found out that it actually combination of your skills and where do you come from. Which for me the labour market is not only related labour market and the economy but wider situation of globalization and the division between Europeans or rich countries and the rest of the worlds. When you come from the rest of the worlds, then you have problem to enter labour market in the richer countries. I have to pay every year, for example for the resident permit, working permit dealt with this situation. For us it is division between us, look down as migrant and the other way around. Which is supposed not to happen. When it comes for marriages for whatever reason. Do they get married to stay here? it is their business. Because there are also other people go to other countries and married for the reason to stay for whatever reason. Not necessary for better economic or likelihood. But why someone from Indonesia or other country, they come here and incidentally get married. Then it was the problem and even criminalizes and never the other way around. For example, the language issue, this is always a problem. I worked with non-governmental organization before in the development sector. The language should not be a problem. It should be English. Then yet, the requirement is always Dutch. For nurses I can understand. But when trying to say, in many ways, this is one side requirement that if you come to this country, you need to train your self to speak our language. Do you ever ask any Dutch person or International western European people are working in Indonesia that they are required to speak Bahasa before you arrive there. I never see that, you can work for 10 years there without speaking the language and not being criminalize in a way or being marginalize or discriminated because you don't speak the language. As a highly skilled migrant, I think we have not only found the problem with the permit, I would like to locate on a wider area of discrimination because where we come from. I would be very honest by saying that we experience the discrimination because of our colour. K: Let me first agree with you. Then we see the highly skilled people coming from India. The problem here that, the labels are not issue to person but to construction and the person is subservience to that. Tamara: When I graduated, I attended the international student day in Holland. There was one person from the Minister said, " you are welcome here to stay after, because you are highly skilled migrant. You did you postgraduate degree here. With your diploma, you are highly skilled migrant. You are encouraged to apply and stay here because our labour market need more people with high skilled. Yet, to extent after, you need at least 2000 euro per month. K: I know, I have to say as student under exactly the same condition. R: Maybe we can open this discussion because it is interesting what is the based of discrimination? Is it about the policy? Is it about the kind of market that people are feeling? Is it about the people them selves the background because that also I think you cannot acknowledge? Is it about society in general who already work with this kind of labels and somehow it reflected in relationship? Gender? Class? Ibrahim: I have worked for Pertamina in Indonesia. The language there is English. So if your English is low level, you cannot do the job. You must have experience. They compare other people about the experiences, high level speaking English. So people maybe can see that as discrimination.

Y: I would agree with Prof. Boonstra, because it depends on job rather than to the person. From my point of you on study on the field, for the people who study more on the technical by TU Delft, Wageningen, is more easy for them or in IT sector to find a job than for student who study legal/law, social science. Because we have Indonesian background rather than International background; It is more on the sector. The second one is about EU blue card. It is similar to US green card. The applicable about EU blue card depends on the country. In the NL, there was a study by an organization, they said it couldnt be application in practical way because what they do is trying to find another company in Indonesia and in NL, and then they ask their employer there to come here with the EU blue card. But they cannot only accept student or all another migrants with this EU blue card without any relation with the company here. R: There are certain kinds of job where you do have to have the training. Without that what ever colour, gender, religion; you can't! But there are also a lot of jobs where the training is on the spot and that are what you are saying is often operating the kind of discrimination or stereo typing or labelling or statement-sing. It is very difficult to put on paper because it is not official. It is in the mind of people. How do we deal with people's mind with shake labour market? Because we know cases of factory workers, agricultural workers who prefer Polish, Moroccans or Turkish; It is not something that is legally defined but it is in people's mind. Barry, Journalist: I have been more than 30 years in Netherlands. There is different between feeling to be discrimination and real discrimination. The employers really look for people who are qualified for the job. But we as colour people tend to feel discrimination. I am talking about equality. I have friend who work as a nurse. She is working hard. I also know some couple of nurse in here who just open a "toko", and then they are still working as nurse. R: Is it possible to say that Indonesian is less not experiencing this in the Labour Market? are less than others? P1: I have this issue of this discrimination. The employer is asking for the reference. It is not really whether you are qualified. The employer is looking as well on the reference, also your working experience while for fresh graduate maybe you are not having experience. But you can go as volunteer. Tamara: about discrimination, I doubt about how the society works in general. It is not necessarily discrimination or rejection where we come from or your appearance at work. The labour market who work also with stereo type these people have in general in society. I would not differentiate between being really discriminated or feeling discriminated. Because discriminated, perhaps you have experienced before. When I came to the NL, I never thought that I would be experiencing discrimination because of my colour. I studied with 50 more nationalities and we experienced in daily basis in different forms. from going to the store to going to the police. Sometimes they can be criminalized just because how you look and I assume in the end this related to how you are treated in general-not the feeling of discrimination. About the qualification, we applied certain jobs. It is not only me but also friends from other countries and Indonesia. You can be under-qualified or overqualified. How in this world when you have a problem looking for a job, then you know that you are over-qualified? The employers don't hire you because they would be fine if they hired someone who is over-qualified for the position. When you and yourself don't mind to work when you are over qualified. The question is if you are breaking as the whole as the system whether economic or

society then this differentiation should not be made. Whatever position you have, you are contributing to the society of the economic system. So what does it matter whether we are low skilled or high skilled? What should we make this difference? Everybody is skilled in their own field. R: How do you experiences about the domestic worker, the network or maybe from FNV? Ibrahim: there is request for the Dutch government for innovation for high skilled workers and the nurses. R: we do realize, the need for domestic workers in Holland is a reality. Even outside the official policy of the Dutch government, domestic work is still very much needed. Officially it is nurse and high skilled, but in reality so many families are using the labour of domestics. Is there any one who experiencing of domestic and organization dealing with domestics workers? What kind of dynamic applies in terms of discrimination or preference? P1: Is it impossible that the outcome of the discussion can be circulated in the Erasmus, in the Dutch embassy, because we speak about unskilled people, if we are talking about high skilled people, they can survive. It would be very wide if you can share the real situation in here whether you need to qualify in English - at least, or in Dutch. This information needs to be circulated in Erasmus, Dutch embassy in Jakarta. Mari Martin, FNV-B: if you work offshore as a trigger. If the employer asks for the worker legally, it is costly. We have convinced the employer of cleaning to go get the work permit, to legalize the domestic workers too. The problem right now is criminalizing people. R: If we link this with the current talk about EU and outside EU. Are you also under pressured to make a selection what kind of workers from where is more demanded for this cleaning job? Is there any kind of pressured for that? K: Actually, domestic work also done when Dutch resident nationals do it. It is also outside the law, for instance, if you want to dismiss Dutch. I agree very much about the stereotype, the idea behind that. Officially or unofficially that woman labour should be for free, especially in the household. It only changes 25 years ago in NL. Not to say it should be outside discussion but it is different discussion. Your idea is not about the economy but about the society that should be regarded as work dealt with that. For domestic workers, they need have agency behind them to level with the individual situation with the employer. Any domestic worker, any countries in the world migrant or non-migrant are always down there below. R: it is very difficult to measure how many domestic workers; this will bring us to the question that Marijke was saying about labour inspection. One needs protection but on the other hand, when they become formal or documented then one is under the case of government and the possibility of being sent out away. This is the main issue about to what extent is the documented or not documented good for the worker. M: what i am thinking still about skilled and unskilled work. What I saw in agriculture, Moroccan and Turkish workers, worked there in early 1990s. They very often have studying whatever. Among domestic worker, there are many people study all kind of things. They are working there, because that the best where you could find work. It is more complicated. People are looking down on the

agriculture and cleaning. Actually it is an important work. In agriculture and domestic worker may need the job where people can come. It is the idea among Dutch people that Indonesian and Philippine's women are gentle and soft. In the other thing is in agriculture as long as it works that people come in, before the expansion of the EU. People come in and they work without papers. So why should you give them permission to work because they do work. They are farming. You can say that we do not need them. But they come and they work with lower wages and without social security. There would be the step to make to really to say that we need this work. Then we need to give social security to the worker. The step would be it is done and should be inspecting. C: Is there any possibility for the government to receive, to accept the domestic worker dealing with the regulation in NL? There is no chance for them to go or work in NL; it is in the fact of the policy. R: Can they come as domestic worker or is it just an accidental thing that they did not manage to get the job they wanted to have and ultimately they end up being? K: It is up to the people who want to work or perform that labour. I cannot imagine that it would be much fun to go to another country in order to work in the household and leave your children behind. Not being able to build up family relation. That is not up to us, but it should be recognize that this worker and there are also arrangement like a couple of years ago, the college of mine did research project in south east Amsterdam, there is a large community from Ghana, made self-organization and they were doing well for themselves. Some of them were legal the residing. They are sort of the trading houses, doing business. There are domestic works in the residential area in Heemstede and Haarlem. What it was done, it was a new bus track created there. That was preferable for that labour market, because women could go to Heemstede to the residential area for back and front. Everybody was arranged properly. Our colleges are research said, "this is how it should be, and both sides have benefits from this. Society benefits. There is no abused, no exploitation. The only thing is nothing can happen to this people because the workers have event or mutual social security set up for themselves. But of course they are outside the formal economy. That was an example, why not recognize that, but then again it is not up to me to say whether it right to immigrate for 2 years or 4 years and being away from everything. R/S: I am working for city of Leiden, we should start from the demand for labour. There was someone called as an expat because there is a real need demand. Besides migration, there is no demand. R: the point start from the demand , the only problem is who define the demand. Tamara: It should not be like that. This is where we think this cannot be change and we move form there. I completely disagree because they think is the right for every human being. To be where they wanted to be and to work where they wanted to work. Unfortunately, we are talking about the demand; I am going to bring this issue wider how the society works all over the world. Because then why this is only one side, why this is only applied if we are coming to the European countries, USA, UK. Why it is not applied the other away around. We have a free market. We have been globalization. I would assume that it should work both ways, instead of only one way. No one ever question, any European who comes to, for example, Indonesia, Philippines. Why do they want to live there, when there is no demand? I would say that it should not happen that way. That why we need

to question and if we are working for change, the policy to make better things here, we should open our thinking up to that point. R/S: Labour market nowadays the employer is the one who has more power. You have to listen to that side, make the real and right match with people whom looking for the job. R: What we have to remember is if there is no job how can we receive people here. But on the other hand, what has been also discussed is that who determined the demand for what kind of labour. Because some market are open for some kinds of workers and other market are open for others. It is not just a rational economic demand supply. The demand itself is so political thing.

Presentation III on work of International Organisation for Migration (the Netherlands) by Hans van Rhee (IOM)
We have talked about the position of undocumented migrants. What I have encountered as a culture for IOM, where I am doing the job for 12 years now, I encounter migrants weekly with Indonesian, Philippines, India, and Africa and around the worlds. There is not aspect, which is quiet important dimension. For example, Indonesian, the need to travel to Europe because there are needs of work, pursuing their study, raising the children, looking for the cooperation. These are the factor to come here. What I hear from the migrants that in many cases they talk to agents, the agents arrange the ticket, the visa and sort of fake contract. Working contract is when you have a job. So people come and they think that they get the job, but they end up on the street without the contract, no job to do. Then what happen is they go underground, they talk to other Indonesian and try to find the way to still be able to gain the money with the necessary to return to Indonesia. That is was the idea, to come for a couple of years and return back home. In domestic work is safe, you do not labour inspection to come to the door. It is easy job, simple. Or sometimes they go to restaurant and work there. They are being abused as well. Sometimes I heard story from one person that they do not get paid or get less from the promised or they should pay the rent for extremely high amount of euros, which has been rented by other person. The criminalization makes the situation worst. Europe is becoming a large forced. Illegality is a crime nowadays. If you apply again for the visa it would be rejected. The position of the migrant gets weaker. In some cases, some people decide to return home. Story about IOM, it was founded in 1951 after the World War II. When there were may refugees fled from their home and decided to return to their home. First UN tried to build up organization within the UN to arrange the return of those migrants. But the UN got into discussion and could work it out but they disagreed in some issues. It was decided; it should come separate an independent organization that would take care of this job. So then in 1951, IOM is founded by 16 countries which was NL, Switzerland, etc. We are independent because we are not linking to any governments. This is another aspect that migrants afraid of, because they have many times consoling and they think IOM is part of the system of Minister of Justice. They are afraid that I would share the information

with the Minister of Justice, which is not the case. You are coming from the system that knows corruption or not, we maybe afraid of that. Organization links to each other. For us it is important to be independent and to be neutral, so we might have been on migration. After we are founded in 1951, interested in individual and society. This means we want to serve migrants and host countries, which is NL. What we told to the government that we have 3000 migrants in return, means 3000 illegal less in NL. We also want to assist the receiving countries/origin because in many times, the migrants are educated and skilled. We are known as emergency agent, for example tsunami in Indonesia and Srilanka or lately in Japan. In many cases we work together with UNHCR to provide the food, education, clear water, etc. We have special intention for trafficking people, which have a lot of money involved. Also for those agencies in Indonesia, they earn the money, trafficking people back and forward. It is more than drugs trafficking. I would like to start to discuss with the government in South Africa and Zimbabwe how to solve this problem. It is not political discussion, but refugee problem. What can we do about it? We share our information and knowledge about migration. We try to be reliable, link worldwide. If we talk about the IOM in NL, the most important field is system voluntary return, where migrants back to their own countries; we serve economic migrants, labour migrants. Based on the percentage, around 60% have background and 40% have not background. Furthermore, we have appraisal development, which active in return qualified national. We speak about the people who do have lessons in NL and now willing to go back to their country. We are admission around 65 employees. Some figures, we do have around 3000 refugees for the last 3 years. This project still continues, we are glad that we could over to the migrants, not only flight ticket but also be able to assist them. When it comes to be in contact with those migrants due to in the fact that they have to go underground, not to be caught by the police. It is more difficult for them to have the health care, to report things to the police of not being paid a few months of work. It is an excuse. But they are too afraid to go to the police. K: How do you select the people who get the support to repatriate? H: People come to us. Mouth to mouth commercial. I worked to national for years, and every person all knew. K: How do you select the people who get the support to repatriate to their country? It is an expensive service. H: There are some criterias, you have to be watched the job of the voluntary work, you need to have travel work, we have to assist the person, they should go to the embassy. The person should have not been intention to settle down in Europe. In other words, we don't want to assist tourist or EU members. They can use the consular system and assisted by us. The only exception we made is for example trafficking from Europe like Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania. We can assist them, when it is clear that they have been treated as trafficking. We need letter from police, stating that he/she is the victim of trafficking. K: Where do you get your funding? H: Funding is getting from the member of IOM. We have various donors like, IND, European refugees fund, Minister of foreign affairs or mixed of donors for project.

R: The position of IOM has to deal with any different interest, you have to deal with states, with migrants, with various organization. How do you deal with states that want to control the movement and migrants who want to go beyond this control? There is a debate about the formality and informality and documentation or not. H: It can be dilemma, because I want to assist the migrants. Assisting the migrants is not always interest of one of those countries or even the migrants. The migrants do not have a choice. It is in bad condition and there is any other option beside to go home. Especially detention what can you do, you can go on the street and end up to the sanction. It is difficult to deal with it. For example, the person wants to go back to Turkey or Iran. We have special procedure for them. Apart from the procedure that in some cases, you have to provide some information to those authorities. If a person returns home, we try to be there to provide the systems. ??: It is important that we only provide the information to the migrants, so that the migrants can make well in forming the decision. We cannot prevent problem with the authorities we cannot do anything about it. If someone returns, and there is something happen, there is nothing we can do. H: The migrants have to make difficult decision and make up their mind. M: the interest of migrants is the interest of society R: We have to find the ideal form. Which one is useful and which one is not.

Presentation IV on labour Rights & Human trafficking by Eline Willemsen (Fairwork) & Hauw Han (SKIN)
The option about exploited workers and some others development trafficking. Our organization is only focusing on situation of labor exploitation and other sectors than sex industry. When you think about trafficking in the prostitution sector that is prohibited until 2005. But since then, it is prohibited to exploit people from any other sector. This is the result of international agreement and international treaties. From 2005 until now, we have 52 cases of labor exploitation in court, which about 28 conventions and sometimes it can be more suspects for case. In the economic sectors, it is very diverse. Some of you only concern about undocumented workers, but we also seen that the eastern European citizen come to the NL to work legally, Polish and Czech for instance. They are also easy target for exploitation. Everything seems under control and legal, but then there are cases about shadow contracts where the employers exploit the workers. They are also people who work with working permit that recently found out as a massage solo workers or masseuses. They can work here with a work permit. They work here legally. Everything on paper is correct. The contract is checked by the government and they got the residence permit. But no one will contact them to see how everything the practice is going. This mean the exploitation is the risk. The minister has a contact

moment with this workers after give them the resident permit, because you cannot leave them and expect everything will turn out OK for them. They are vulnerable, They are in the different country and no contact at all. This is the grey area of the division of doing exploitation trafficking and labor exploitation. The trafficking or labor exploitation this means that people earn no salary or very less salary. In the dependent situation, for instance, for housing or work permit, there is no way to escape from that situation, because they do not have alternative. We have the famous Chinese restaurant case where are also use the forced that was not explicit, people are begging to work there. They were undocumented and they earned about 2 euro per hour. The first forced said that they wanted to work for themselves, but they decided to hire low. They do not have alternative. I also encountered cases, which link with deceit, fraud and smuggle. I want to make it distinction because it quiet confusing. Deceit, people come here because someone has promised them very good work here and everything would be arranged so people take a big loan in their country. They have to pay a lot for the flight and the visa, but when they come here, there is nothing. They have less a formal position, paid a lot of money and have debt in their own country. Sometimes, their family is dependent on them. In practice why don't you go to the police, but for undocumented reason this is difficult and risk. But it cannot be considered as trafficking because there is no labor aspect yet in those cases. There are also a lot of cases with identity fraud, we see a lot from east European people. Identity is used without their knowledge, so that the employer uses their identity and paper then makes copies of it for other purposes for other people. The different between trafficking and smuggling are the transportation of undocumented people with their concern. Officially, the smuggling does not know a victim. The victim of human trafficking I called it as the official technologic. I dealt with a large group victim of trafficking, especially from east European workers. It is difficult to get a solution for those people. You cannot imagine the big farm, for instance Jansen with asparagus farm. The government wants to take action in those cases and take the people away, but it does not really have a great solution for those groups. The most problem is about payment of the back wages, the salary that has not been paid. The victim of trafficking wants to get out of situation; there is the option to complain to the police in case of exploitation. We assist those people. There special units in every police force in the NL about the trafficking cases. The victim will just need a resident permit and they would be in the process of investigation. The resident permit is only the period when there is an investigation; there is a lot of insecurity. The burden of proof is very important in those cases. it should not be underestimated, because we see a lot of time in investigation or court failed due to not enough proof. We see a lot of people get exploited, theyre the only person on that case and there is no other witness to sustain the case. It makes it hard. That always is something to considered. Trafficking in human being is something that investigates by the state. The state has the obligation under international treaties to combat trafficking. There is under criminal law, the victim of the trafficking, the workers and the migrants are only a very small subject in that. It means that the outcome of a trafficking case would be perpetrator and end up in the prison. We have criminal law, civil law and compensation fund for people that have been experiencing finance. Those are the 3 options more less that are there and would like to take the options.

If the case would be investigation through criminal law, it would be the conviction of perpetrator, combat in trafficking in general of Dutch states point of view. At the end of the criminal investigation, under the court case, the worker can introduce a claim. The claim is the salary which very large amount of money. The claim has to be acknowledging the public prosecutor. It means by the end there would be a possibility for compensation of the unpaid wages, which is positive. But we are always dependent only on the investigation and the outcome of the court decision. So, it is insecure. The advantages can also be that somebody can be granted the temporary resident permit. If there is conviction later in the court, the person can get the resident permit. The disadvantage is if you find the complaint with the police, being the witnesses of such process is very intensive. There are a lot of moments of pressuring and very dependent for the whole process and no have influence on it. The most enormous is a lot of people have a great impact. A lot of people are afraid to speak out of what happen, because there is a risk of their employer taking revenge. There is a possibility to make a civil process, which is open for everybody. On the Dutch law, it does not matter if you are documented or not. In theory this is the rule and there is a practice whether this is for you of getting opportunity end up visible way. This means you would get the assistance of the labor lawyer. You would tell the lawyer what you have missed from the salary. You have to come with the proof. However for undocumented workers, this is difficult because often they do not have a working contract. We have a case with Columbian worker who has worked 7 years in NL. He had proof that he was paid every month and the envelope that he kept for every month. But he was earning under salary range. He had been assisted by the labor lawyer and went to the court. The security will not check on him on his valid resident permit which he did not have one. He was there for his case, in the end he won back 7000 euro. Of course, it always is the risk when you make a thing undocumented. It does not grant you a resident permit, which is the outcome of the case. It does not give you any right to stay in NL. There are some basic costs. There is the possibility to make a statement of the CIE - Criminal investigation unit. They have different governmental police CIE, which represent from different background. There is also a unit that specialist in exploitation cases. It always is guarantee you will always said as anonymous as the source of that information and they will not put you into intention. They will not interest into your resident permit. The compensation for undocumented workers, labor law is applicable. We have case the worker was found in labor inspection. He was picked up as undocumented worker. The labor inspection is saying the person works there then you have proof you work there, under Dutch law/ Alien law Act 23 says "due to from that fact you are working there for at least 6 months". You can use that evident in the civil court. It would be good to keep documents, as a proof you work there, the colleague witnesses can be a proof as well. We also have a lot of cases of job agencies. It is very easy to exploit the people within job agency to keep the secret administration. The minister of social affair is taking a lot of measures to combat the exploitation with job agencies.

HAN - Guideline SKIN I am a member of Dutch Indonesian Christian Church, on behalf of SKIN. SKIN is caring to get the Church in NL. This is an organization for migrant churches in Holland. In 2006-2007, we were dealing with the victims of human trafficking and smuggling. Those migrants church are normally a small community, they do not have enough knowledge or resources to find information. From SKIN, we develop the kind of guideline how you help this figure. We were working with fairwork but also with IOM and the other organizations, which are expert in this matter. We have accepted this guideline in 2009 to the minister of justice. We have tried to make a chart of the organization how to find help if you do not know what to do or help the victims. You can try to find organization in Holland to help you. Even in terms of legal help, for instance you can go to Fairwork. Our idea is we would like to cooperate with all Indonesian organizations in Holland. Now and then, we see victims in our Church. But the victims are bigger and find in other organization. _____________________________________ Discussion: R: In the first section, we discussed about all the interest involved and the contradiction but also the opening that are available in here. We see the various possibilities for helping undocumented workers go through the channel to protect themselves with support by others. Fatiah, International Criminal Court: The temporary resident permit during the process and the civil process. I wonder if the victims have the rights like the normal citizen. E: The resident permit is only when you collaborate with the police in the criminal investigation. The resident permit is temporary and you are able to work without any restriction. If you are not able to work, the governmental is quiet easy on granting the social welfare. You get the legal assistance and mental assistance. It is quiet good. Most people go into shelter when they deny the regulation. This shelter is specifically for women facing domestic violent or trafficking. You are not able to phone in the beginning, just make sure that you are not in contact anymore with the trafficker. The regulation is quiet good, but it is very insecure. When the public prosecute decides stop the case immediately, the IND withdraw the regulation. Then people in practice will apply for another resident permit, but it has to be strong in order to get it granted. Fatiah: With the temporary one we can start the civil case? E: It always possible, one does not exclude the other. R: It is interesting also Klara was telling the whole thing about people get the resident permit does not necessarily get the work permit. When do people have the both rights, or just have one of them? What kind of people? What kind of circumstances?

K: Only employers or self-employed people can get work permit because the permit is linking to the work cannot necessarily to the person. The workers are the prosecution case. It is not connected, because the prosecution is fraud. E: That is totally different procedure. You cannot compare with any other. It is not under asylum. It is regular migration law. K: Your work position is not recognizing, because it considers as normal work not exploitation. The exploitation part is prosecuted, but we see the worker interests' not for this procedure. E: But in practice you get the possibility with the regulation to work. K: Just not because they are not relying on social benefit. Not because they want to help the development. There is no big plan behind this; the purposes are not to help the victims further. That is why a lot of migrated workers prefer not to be viewed as victims but as regular workers. Even we did a lot of research with colleague of Marijke on prostitution. Even they do not want to be seen as the victims because then all the focus will be on being a victim and not on being provided your income and right to work. R: It is quiet confusing, for instance, an undocumented worker or just documented worker to know which rules should go with. How to get information on that? K: There is always a demand for this work. Where the business model, there always is a supplier. That is both the problem and the solution. E: the more restrictive we have got, the inventive the trafficker. We always see new development. We think we regret the problem and then new trend in the development. K: it would be easy to jump into reality. If you acknowledge that this work and always be done and provided. That is the first step to acknowledge and to recognize that. A large group of people declared illegal not so much by the worker performance, but by the labeling. In the 1950s, it is done too but without label illegal undocumented on it. So it is a choice to make it illegal. R: It is also a political climate. That is the whole thing. It is not just about economic, but also very strong related. M: For additional, being the sector where this happen for instance agriculture. In the research, we found working insecurity. But it is not only about the undocumented workers, but you see the whole group of workers, Dutch workers have decline of security around the world. Early 1990s, people would work for the same employer and their colleague would also work for the same employer. The maturities working for agency, they do not know their colleague anymore. It is hard to prove that you work somewhere. It is a hard to have a voice as a worker. You would strengthen the voice on this sector and people can be heard and organize themselves and making division between work documented and undocumented is not helping the process. It means the position migrant worker is also met to other workers. It has specific issues and it has common issues. R: Maybe FNV would like to share how are you now facing the situation where you have very diverse category of workers or kind of works. How do you deal with this different or even with the documented or undocumented? You should not have ready for some solution to this.

FNV: It is not easy to focus with all the members. If they meet with undocumented people, they always said that they could stay. They join the union. Being undocumented now, it is very difficult to go to court but they are victims. Luckily they find job and they work. E: It is too extreme when you are undocumented workers then you are not had right to be here. If you were civil exploited then you would get all the rights. R: That also the case where workers or group of workers are being pushed to compete with each other. It is the thing that makes it difficult. Some are accepted and some are not. E: I see a lot of solidarity among the workers. FNV: I think a cleaner works for a company and get paid for 9 euro/hour netto. But the differences are they have to pay more for the insurance that not much differences in income. It would be possible to legalize the work; we have to fight for the work permit for all like in US. They have succeeded in that. It is what we should do but it is so difficult with politic environment. R: Especially the whole thing about what is illegal and legal; what is criminalize and not criminalize. That is even more difficult for different groups of people. They are feeling threaten by the presents of others who are able be paid less, because they are not part of the official labor force. Y: I would like to stress out how important is this information about the protection of labor rights, because everyone no matter from what sector you are; then are you a student and try to find a job in here. You do a part time job in domestic sector or restaurant. You can be in the situation in which you are being exploited. This information is very important. As my presentation in the beginning, there are a lot of nurses are becoming undocumented because they cannot extend their permit. That is why they are facing the exploitation in the field. We hope that everyone is aware. There is a way for you to get a justice if you are a victim of exploitation. Hauw Han: I just want to add, we have learnt before that victims or people are afraid to get to the police or ask for help for assistance. We recommend our guideline to keep them assisted. You cannot ask them to go by themselves. R: we exchange the communication and information about the activities of that kind of network. Besides, it is important to identify which sectors, because each sector has different working condition. We are not talking about construction work, industrial work with different kind of workers from different background. The nurses, domestic sectors and student are a good start. But there is a broad range that hopefully we can build up the networks. Maybe we face similar condition or maybe very different condition. We have to know what the differences are. Rizky: I am making documentation about our fellows of domestic workers. It is very insightful information from Eline about collecting proof because it is just a small number of domestic workers or fellows who are willing to make a proof that they are working there. I got a friend who was working in the restaurant about 10 years ago. His colleague was undocumented and also worked in the restaurant. Accidently he cut his hand. Then he is afraid to talk to the police and and told be being exploited. The employer just said to go to the Hospital now and do not say about their name

and to cover your own expense. Then he needs more treatment after the first visit, but the employers did not want to hold him and let him work again. The employer asked him to go back to Indonesia. It is good information, so the migrant organization can encourage their members. E: Maybe not going to police, but they can also go to trade union. M: We also had case in the restaurant; there was someone who lost two fingers in the packing machine. We sent 6 messages to the lawyers, but 3 answered. They were interested to do something but they could not make secure that the man would not be arrested. It was couple years ago. Now, there is some addition that the documented workers could report to the police-veilige aangifte. In Amsterdam, there are domestic workers within union work with them in Bijlmer. They have an experience to cover the complaint from undocumented migrant in that area. If they came to us and tell what happen, then it is better for the neighbourhood. It is more concern about the exploitation and the under payment. They focus is checking the minimum wages and the other side is checking their status. I have a personal contact with the undocumented people. We have the theory and policy in the practice that is always making us difficult. R: The municipality has different attitude towards. Does anybody have information about Gemeente is very good at this? In fact that we can be always pessimistic, because of the different layers, you often have different kind of approaches by the government official. E: It would be interesting to, especially for the domestic workers, because this whole process. First, the government decided not to ratify the convention, but now it is pretty high proficient level. It is a good momentum to make a good working document and to get through that process. R: Document and the network are to maintain the network if somebody in trouble. K: working document and you still have time in the process, to have 5-6people in group E: I Would like to share an optimistic initiative about the hidden research in Arabic. They want to initialize the green nanny. I do not know whether you have heard about this. The green nanny is making sure that the rights of the au pair are respected. Y: For Indonesian embassy, what can our government do to deal in regards of exploitation? The embassy: The embassy has the obligation to protect our citizen here in NL according to the Vienna convention. The main thing is the main problem for the embassy to get access directly to the victim, because there is a privacy act that is imposed by the government. So it is difficult to the embassy to do each action quickly. According to the regulation, the embassy has the right accompany the victim, based on the request permit from the victim itself. The second thing is the embassy has to follow the regulation of this country. We have good connection with some lawyers here so assist the embassy to provide legal assistance. Mega: What about the opportunity to work here? Fatiah, International Criminal Court: I work for ICC, an international organization. Following the Dutch Law, I do not need the working permit. I have been taken care of by the minister of foreign affair. So it finds it easier for me to stay here. I did some part time works in cleaning houses. Luckily I have never being exploited. I do not know whether it is common knowledge but the interning in the

international organization in UN once. You are unpaid. But they will give you a resident permit like a Dutch ID from the MVV. It is easy for MVV to give the intern ID -sometimes 9 months. I have seen a lot of interns that they make so many complaints and think that they are being abused. R: What is the regulation considering internship? It is actually labor. It is quiet often that the agreement between the company who takes on the internship and the student. What is the regulation for internship? K: The purpose of the relationship whether it is a contract or not is for the student to learn. It is not the activity with the economical value. The economical value in here is not a purpose of work. But sometimes, they are problem with work permits. For work permit, normally if you are paying the minimum wages but it is not the other way around. There is not work relationship. R: What is the boundary between training and being exploited? Because you could always said it works in factory quiet often that workers who are not training or student who have the first step in working in that factory as trainee. It could be 3 months; 6 months but they are still trainee. K: For that is also for Dutch national here, that actually not such big problem yet but it certainly is in the UK where young kid is coming out of school or university and work for free for 6 month before they can get the job. You sort of have to pay your way in which we normally think of corrupt stage. You have to pay in obtain employment but it is very difficult. We do not have any court cases because it is certain that you will never get that job if you take that. The young people cannot get the indefinite contract, which is just 6 months or 1 year. It is constant for the job; the work is going on but with different workers. We as a trade union do not follow a litigation strategy on that problem because it wont solve it. We try to move to legislator not to allow this so much. R: The category is so tricky quiet often. You want to have security, but that security is bringing more control. ???: There is also problem with children of undocumented migrant and going to school but not allow to do the internship and complete their school. R: This is also hot issue from trade union and child right activist, whether the children are allowed to work or not. In the past, it was considered to be not the right thing. M: It supposed about denial for the internship of the children of undocumented migrants. They said it works and they can get the minimum wages. It is no work. It is minimalize the chance for children to study. R: The other side of the issue is that quiet often in many countries, children are not allowed to work because they are only allowed to study. Of course you linked children with exploitation if they work. But there are a lot of children who have to work for their families. M: For instance in personal garage, if more work for him to compliment and teach the children as intern. Everybody knows that it is not an economic thing for the children. I want to take this role because I want people learn in their job. We are talking about here we are in the international people from different countries. Then we were talking about the workers, imagine that you were working for the international organization. There are more people in the city working for

international organization. For the domestic workers, we are also looking for employers to support. There are employers that said they would have the domestic workers and would like to arrange decently. It is the ideal of the city of justice. The international community who want to be the part of this movement that makes decent. How you look at migrant, it would be that people are interested. Do you think it would be possible? To step in also with Dutch employees to say We are employees of undocumented workers but also domestic workers. K: We try that the institution to get all employees organization involved, but there is no way. M: but there are personal employees who want to do it. It can be for building the network. R: That has been a very fruitful, I have learned quiet a lot and I hope this would be one of the series of the meeting. Thank you to all the speakers and Bapak Kedutaan and also to all you who have been participating and hopefully this is not the last. Hopefully this is the start of many other meetings, because it is such a complex issue and then we work at different levels, areas that we do need to meet regularly to discuss this issues more in detail. Thank you. ______________________________ END___________________________________