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SONN Curating | Alejandro Jodorowsky via Purple

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Waning Crescent Moon 26 days old 2012 06 28 Alejandro Jodorowsky via Purple

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ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY is best known for directing the cult movies El Topo, 1972, and The Holy Mountain, 1973. But hes also a prolific writer, artist, playwright, philosopher, as well as a healer and magician adept at every artistic activity, from the most abstract to the most popular. His passionate investigation of the Tarot coincided with the therapeutic session he calls PSYCHOMAGIC. A man of culture, at the crux of South American and European traditions, art is for him a form of rebellion, medicine, and spirituality which transcends all barriers. photographs and interview by OLIVIER ZAHM OLIVIER ZAHM One thing that fascinates me about you is the world of symbols that cross your universe, your body of work. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY I was raised by a father who was a Communist and a Stalinist. He came to Chile from Russia when he was five. He wanted to be like Stalin. He dressed like Stalin. When I was four he said to me, God doesnt exist. Youre going to die, youll rot away, and thats it. He created a terrible neurosis in me, so I started life searching for truth. OLIVIER ZAHM Through the denial of God? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, and the idea that theres nothing else. I was in total despair and didnt accept this truth. I sought another truth through experience. I felt that through words I wasnt getting anywhere, because behind every word was another word, and another, to infinity. OLIVIER ZAHM Was this some kind of spiritual research through words? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Philosophy is a search for truth, but it isnt the Truth. I wanted things to affect me concretely. The meaning of words didnt have an effect on me, only their vibration did. Their beauty, poetry, and splendor impressed me. Through words I could receive beauty, but not truth. I didnt want to say that truth was beauty. I was searching for things that affected me directly: symbols. A symbol doesnt communicate a precise thing. It acts like a mirror and in that mirror you see what you are bearing, what you are. If you are able to see symbols, youll see yourself, and youll be able to control your progress, because as time passes and you develop, symbols change with you and accompany you. OLIVIER ZAHM Do you remember the first symbol or the first symbolic things you encountered? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, the Coca-Cola logo. I had a teacher, Oscar Ichazo, who was part of a movement called Arica. When I was in Mexico doing The Holy Mountain, we paid $17,000 for him to come for one night. I wanted him to enlighten me, to tell me the word, and he gave me LSD. He sat me in a meditation position in front of a luminous circle on a terrace. It was a spinning Coca-Cola logo. As it spun, it became a line, then a circle, and then the Coca-Cola logo, which I stared at for six hours. It was the Coca-Cola circle, a ring of light in the city, on top of a roof. And thats when I had a flash of inspiration, a tremendous mental change. OLIVIER ZAHM The drug accelerated it? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY It accelerated things I had never experienced but needed to know. To come to something, you have to know it. If you dont know something, how can you look for it? From that moment on I saw that symbols enter into me. You dont see them from the outside, like when you look at a fashion magazine. They penetrate into you like a key, opening inner dimensions, opening me up to things that are difficult to explain with words. Your being changes. OLIVIER ZAHM And enters into another dimension of consciousness? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY It enters your dreams and changes them. I started having lucid dreams. One day I dreamt that I was leaving the planet. I was entering infinite space. I saw pyramids, a white one and a black one that overlapped to become one volume, a six-pointed star, but dimensional. I said to myself, Thats divinity. Im going inside. I went inside and I exploded. When I woke up, I wrote El Incal, which I made with Moebius [the French comic strip artist, Jean Giraud]. Its about the incorporation of symbols within yourself. El Incal talks about how the Incal enters into you and changes you. How an ordinary guy becomes the universes savior.

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OLIVIER ZAHM Are you saying that you have led your life according to this interpretation and fascination with symbols? Do you think its a language thats disappearing or that its not as powerful today? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY What the masses think doesnt interest me, nor whether symbols are dying out or not. Esoteric teaching pays no attention to public thought. In working with symbols, I work with myself. My father told me I was an empty sarcophagus, that I would rot away, so I said to myself: Being a prisoner of this body can be a wonder or a catastrophe. We all have incredible knowledge, but because there is death, theres knowledge that we dont have. My lifes work has been discovering the knowledge within me. Where I perceive intuition, I develop it. You have to develop telepathy. You have to begin to develop what you are, but not from the point of view of an egomaniac or a narcissist. Words are transpersonal; they exist outside the artificial ego, which is put in our heads when were children. I write poems every day. Today I wrote, Everything that is an owner, everything that has an owner, is not real. I dont want to be dependent on ideas or feelings or desires. OLIVIER ZAHM Are symbols a way to know and to liberate yourself? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Of course. When you speak of liberation, you enter into Buddhism, which is the philosophy of the great liberation. But Buddhisms great liberation isnt enough for me. It means to become free and to reincarnate, to be liberated from this life of suffering. I think the greatest liberation is to accept that this life is joy and to enter into it, living it to the fullest possible extent. We will perhaps pass on to another life, but thats not where the interest lies. The interest lies in living in a state of bliss here and now. PSYCHOMAGIC OLIVIER ZAHM Does the symbolic world also involve magic thinking? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, thats why I invented Psychomagic. Magic is in beliefs, in superstitions; it seeks to dominate the outside world with rituals and symbols. Psychomagic is the control of the internal world, of a world outside of all superstition, and of all self-deception. I am mortal, but how can I think that Im powerful when theres this enormous universe of eternity and infinity? What right do I have to talk about such power? My power is that of knowing myself. On the faades of Greek temples was written the phrase, Know thyself. One cant know anything more than that. Reality is not what it was, its not what it will be, its not what you want it to be. It is what it is. There isnt anything nonessential about it, just things as they are. When we enter into what things are, we are in magic. OLIVIER ZAHM This symbolic world has been put aside. Symbols arent taught. Were losing the sense of their importance. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY People want to have fun. So we give them entertainment, industrial cinema, television, internet. I address people who need to do work on themselves, and show them to what point Ive come, to serve as an example of where they can go. Maybe theyre farther along than I am, perhaps not as far. In my films, I insert symbols for these people. OLIVIER ZAHM Have you been influenced by Castaeda? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY I liked his first three or four books. It was a cultural shock, because he admired something that was despised: Mexican Indian culture. Art must use what is despised as creative material. Not what is despicable but what is despised. Thats why I did comic strips, and why I did a cowboy movie, things that are rarely exploited in an artistic way. Castaeda had wonderful ideas, but he went from ritualistic, symbolic art something true to himself to whimsy in order to publish books. OLIVIER ZAHM He had the reputation of being very secretive. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, he was, but he was an icon because he succeeded in the United States. He was one of the first to bring shamanistic traditions to universities and anthropology. Later, he fell into guru madness. He had seen my film, El Topo, which was the underground film of the time. One day I was in an Argentinian restaurant in Mexico City, and a lady came over to me and asked, Do you want to meet Castaeda? He came to my table. We talked and set a time to meet again in a hotel, the Camino Real, where we talked and talked. Hollywood had made him an offer to make a film of his book, The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge. Hed made seven million dollars, and wanted me to direct it with Anthony Quinn in the role of Don Juan. I said to him, Thats crazy. Whos going to believe Anthony Quinn as Don Juan? It would be fun, but not true to the book. So I said no. Hes smart, and understood that it would be a mistake. I understand that when Hollywood makes an offer to make a movie, some people can be tempted. Lets go back to Psychomagic. Is it a form of free psychoanalysis? Yes, shamanistic psychoanalysis. OLIVIER ZAHM Whats your notion of Psychomagic? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Its an art; its not a science. It has nothing to do with scientific therapy. But Ive healed many more people than any psychoanalyst has. Ive made people happy. What is it to be happy? Its very simple: its being what we are and not what others want us to be. I am what I am. I live as I feel. I search for myself in order to know who I am and I dont act to satisfy my father, my mother, my family, my society, or my culture. I escaped from that, and I fulfilled myself. The best example of this is Joseph Campbell, who wrote The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Hes a major expert of mythology, one of the top American anthropologists. He read mythology and abandoned everything. He left his family and went into the woods to read. He lived doing odd jobs. Then, after seven years, once hed read everything he needed to, he took an exam at a university and he was immediately appointed professor. He became what he was and discovered happiness. OLIVIER ZAHM Does that mean you have to reach for your own limits? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. What do I want? What am I? Even your name and your definitions are artificial. You have to go beyond the definitions your family, society, and your culture have given you. This doesnt mean breaking away from them. It means a metamorphosis, an expansion of consciousness. OLIVIER ZAHM You also explored the idea of a genealogical tree.

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ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Psychogenealogy. Humankind cannot not be a family. Humans are influenced by the past and the past is transmitted by the family. We are shaped by the forest, which is society and transmits time, history, the past, and culture. THE TAROT OF MARSEILLE OLIVIER ZAHM How did you work on this research? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY For seven years I went to the Bibliothque Nationale in Paris. I studied everything. I thought it was a system of symbols that I was supposed to learn. But the purpose of the Tarot is reading it for others. Its not a personal thing. I read this sentence by Buddha, I dont want anything for myself that isnt for others. Mans goal is to change the world. If he cannot change it, he contributes to its change. So I stopped reading the future, because thats the defective and commercial version of the Tarot. There are thousands of possible futures, so I refuse to read the future. I also refuse to give advice, because its a way of taking power. The alternative is to offer options: if you do this, then there will be this result. If you do the opposite, then this. Also, I dont think we can have the whole truth. At the end of the reading, I ask the person if they agree with the interpretation. I made huge progress this way, and my intuition has developed a lot. I did Tarot readings for 30 years in a caf, once a week, every Wednesday. Except when I was sick or tired. People asked me when Id be there and came without me having to advertise. I did Psychomagic and Tarot for free. OLIVIER ZAHM This world of Tarot symbols comes from several traditions. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY It comes from every tradition. Its a wonderful instrument because you find everything in it. Who could have built such an instrument? Thats the mystery. It was so advanced for its time. The first Tarot cards that weve found date back to around 1300. All kinds of origins are attributed to it: Arabic, Aztec, Jewish, Christian everythings there. In truth, Tarot is anonymous because its a sacred art, and all sacred arts are anonymous. It comes from dreams and the collective unconscious. OLIVIER ZAHM I heard that you made your own Tarot. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY A descendent of the Camoin family came to see me. That family printed Tarot decks for two or three centuries. The father of the boy who came to see me was run over, when the boy was 13. The family sold the business and the printing press, and offered the cards to museums, to collectors. This boy was deeply affected by it all. He was sad. I said to him, Youre deeply affected, but really what you want is to continue your tradition. You are a master of cards. Salvage your tradition. I spoke with his mother. The family gave us access to the museum and to the original printing plates. As a result, we revived the Tarot of Marseille. We went back to 1400. Theres not a single Tarot we didnt find. At that time, Tarot cards were made by hand, painted by hand, and the backside was white and people used them like calling cards. OLIVIER ZAHM You were able to reassemble all 78 cards? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. Each Tarot deck has its own certain details. We looked for the hand-painted colors because when it came time to print them, the number of colors was reduced from 13 to four. If you compare an ordinary deck of Tarot of Marseille with a restored deck, youd be shocked at all the details that have disappeared over time. For example, on the Hermit card theres a blue hand. You might wonder why. The High Priest also has a blue hand. Thats something Camoin and I saw together. He saw incredible things because he was genetically a master of cards. On the High Priests blue gloves, theres a little cross. The Hermits blue has a religious dimension; its the Pope who abandoned the Vatican and who withdrew from power. So, right away, the interpretation changes with the secret it gives you. OLIVIER ZAHM And you think this is the oldest Tarot? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, its the oldest. All the others arent worth much because theyre simple, almost rational interpretations of the Tarot of Marseille. They dont have the small details. Because sometimes there are three little dots somewhere or a small circle. Theyre full of details that we dont see at first. We think its a primitive deck, or defective, but its not at all. Because on top of it all, theres a geometric grid. You can place one card on top of another. They all have the same geometric configuration. There are about 8,000 Tarots. Every old adventurer thinks hes made one. Seventy-eight Argentinian painters got together and made a Tarot they call the Argentinian Tarot. Its tasteless. Such a lack of understanding! When I saw one, I said, Pardon me for saying this to you. Im not insulting you, but you dont know what youre doing. The Tarot cannot be Argentinian it doesnt have a nationality; its anonymous. OLIVIER ZAHM So then why do we call it Tarot of Marseille? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Simply because the cards were printed in Marseille. The presses were in old places where the Knights of Templar were. Marseille was one of the only cities in France in the year 1000 where there were three very powerful religions that spoke to each other: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They shared knowledge. The Tarot is the result of all that. OLIVIER ZAHM Tell me why the Tarot is so magical. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY The Tarot develops your intuition because it teaches you to see. Theres a rule of magic that says, There, where you focus your attention, is where the miracle appears. So it is very important to see the details in things. Its a magical position par excellence. And the Tarot forces you to see such details. At first, you might understand the Major Arcana better because there are figures, but when you enter into the Minor Arcana, you see swords, staves, cups, and you dont understand a thing. But after years of study you start to understand what theyre saying and learn to read the symbols. OLIVIER ZAHM But cant everyone read them in their own way? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, its an art that combines the subjectivity of the reader and the subjectivity of the person being consulted. Thats why I always ask the person whose cards Im reading if he agrees, and if it resonates. If it doesnt, I offer him another interpretation, because people have defenses. We are who we are because were not able to face the pain we hide inside of us, that we bury. We want the pain to be taken away, but without being told why, without knowing whats causing the suffering. OLIVIER ZAHM Its better than taking antidepressants. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Its a magic and metaphysical aspirin. The Tarot is subjective because, little by little, we go forward with the person as far as that person can go, but always with the persons consent. You can never force people to face truths they cant handle. Little by little, when they want to know things, we will go there. OLIVIER ZAHM Can it happen in one session? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, I do it in one session. Itll have an effect immediately, or in four years.

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OLIVIER ZAHM Its followed by an action? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. For example, a woman came to consult me because her mother had an infection in her arm and no one was able to heal her. She asked, What do I do? I looked at the cards and saw that her mother had a deep bond with the great-grandmother. The mother felt guilt about her own mother. So I advised that her mother go to her mothers grave, and to put honey on her arm, rubbing it in at the grave site and asking for forgiveness. Its what she did and she was miraculously cured. When its psychological, you can take action. I dont act on things that are a matter for medicine. Im not a charlatan. I act on things that are only and deeply psychological. OLIVIER ZAHM Where medicine isnt so effective. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. Ive just written a book, Le Manuel de Psychomagie, that will come out in France, in which I offer advice for a series of problems.

SPIRITUAL COWBOY OLIVIER ZAHM In the films you made around the time of El Topo, there is always a relationship between a father and a son. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. Remember that at that time there was Pinochet, who was like a Hitler or a Mussolini. These dreadful father figures led societies. Then there were the uncles like the French president Franois Mitterand and Jacques Chirac. Now theres a brother at the head of French Republic, Nicolas Sarkozy, who is neither an uncle nor a father. Hes a guy like you and me who has a filthy mouth, who functions like everybody, whos proud to say, My wife is a model. We no longer have the anxiety of being dominated by a father. OLIVIER ZAHM Was the motivation at the time to kill the father? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. I set out to kill the father in El Topo he gets castrated and in the end to absorb him. You feel sorry for the guy. He begins to become aware and, at the end, he works with his own son. The son cant kill him, so he absorbs him. OLIVIER ZAHM Theres a very beautiful scene in which the son has to bury the portrait of his mother and his first toy. Killing the father, at the time, meant liberating oneself. Did it also mean to do so through drugs and sexual liberation? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY No, no, dont mix up the terms. I have nothing against sexual liberation or against drugs, but Im against the abuse of drugs, and Im against the abuse of sexual liberation. All politicians should be advised to take hallucinogenic mushrooms once in their lives to open their mental state. In all the shamanistic religions, theres a phase with drugs. It isnt about the drug, but the ceremonial aid. Im not against that at all. And Im not against sexual liberation, but Im against the abuse and disrespect of the sacredness of sex, because then it becomes an industry. So killing the father means killing Freud, killing Oedipus, who killed his father. So I start with that. I start with the vision that society has of killing the father, the clash of generations. But, after that, consciousness develops consciousness about the other, about humanity. At that moment, the situation reverses itself, and theres an absorption of the father, and of the values of the past, leading to a better future. Killing the father prevents us from moving forward. It means we are fighting against the past. America doesnt believe in the past and therefore has become the most dreadful country in the world. OLIVIER ZAHM From that point of view, America is also the most infantile of countries. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes.

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OLIVIER ZAHM But to embody this trajectory of killing the father and then absorbing him, you use the figure of the spiritual cowboy. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY A spiritual cowboy who is led to develop his consciousness through suffering. Through enormous emotional pain, hes destroyed, and then he recovers. OLIVIER ZAHM There are also several of those kinds of characters in The Holy Mountain. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY At the time, people didnt know the enneagram. It was a symbol that Gurdjieff brought here, a symbol that comes from the Sufi group. Its a circle with nine points, with a triangle inside, and a line. Its a kind of typology. We are in a circle of planets. So I made an enneagram. There are nine characters with the masters tent in the middle. The master in The Holy Mountain a film based on the enneagram has the enneagram sign on his chest. At the time, no one understood what I was talking about. Now Gestalt therapists use it. Claudio Naranjo is an important psychoanalyst who uses the enneagram. He divides his patients into nine groups and speaks to them about The Holy Mountain and asks that they see it. The enneagram symbolizes the planet as its opposite. For example, Mars, who is a man, becomes a lesbian woman, and Venus is a narcissistic man. Each is responsible for an aspect of mankind laziness, pride, and so on. OLIVIER ZAHM I read that John Lennon wanted you to make the film. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. He loved El Topo and he said to me, You have to do what you want. But I didnt have money, so he said to me, Were going to talk with our producer Allen Klein and ask that he give you a million dollars. I left with a million dollars and I made the film, thanks to John Lennon and Yoko Ono. They found me the money overnight. OLIVIER ZAHM Why did you stop doing fims for a long time after The Holy Mountain? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY The producer Allen Klein was angry with me. He wanted me to use the success of El Topo and The Holy Mountain to make the Story of O. I didnt want to do an erotic film at the time. I wanted to do Dune. We were signing a contract for $300,000, but I left the check and I escaped. He said, Okay, you dont want to do this film? No one will ever see your other films again! And he kept them. Then one day I found a good copy of the negatives in a Mexican lab. I called an English film pirate and said to him, Listen, Im giving this to you for free. Make it public! He said, But Allen Klein will come after me. Thats why I did it. It was David and Goliath. There was a trial, of course, but I wasnt looking for money. I didnt want anything. I only wanted my films to be seen. Overnight I had an audience and I made a profit. So I saved money and stored it away to make a documentary on Psychomagic. Therapeutic cinema. Other projects came to me immediately. I waged a guerilla war. These bootlegs have been traveling across the world over for 30 years. OLIVIER ZAHM That must be how they became cult, underground films, as only certain artists were able to see them. Did you meet Sam Peckinpah? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY No, but El Topo was made with everything Sam Peckinpah left behind in Mexico. He made The Wild Bunch in Mexico. Americans have money. When he wanted to film a small mountain, he said, Clear the way until here. If he wanted horses, he said, Bring me horses. If he wanted explosions, a Mexican Indian taught him about explosions. After he left I found the Mexicans who taught him to explode things, the horse trainers, and the stuntmen. I found them all, and took advantage of them. OLIVIER ZAHM Im surprised to hear than Peckinpah was more widely distributed than you were. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Of course he was! He was a Hollywood director and he worked in the movie industry. But what killed him was alcoholism. He went raving mad. He had his success, but he also had a negative vision of humanity, terribly cynical. I didnt want that. I wanted the opposite. Its easier to make a horrid, cynical film than it is to make a film that talks about mankind in a noble way. OLIVIER ZAHM What is your next film project? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Its crazy. Im involved with four different projects, including King Shot with David Lynch! OLIVIER ZAHM Its funny, because he directed Dune, a film which you wanted to shoot, but never did. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, but Lynch suffered a lot when he did Dune too. It wasnt his fault. It was the producers fault. OLIVIER ZAHM Does Lynch like your films? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY He likes my films and I like his. We like each other a lot. When we met, we fell into each others arms. After that project, theres The Children of El Topo, which is a Russian-American co-production, but will be titled Abel and Cain. Then I have Bouncer, the adaptation of my book, which was illustrated by Franois Boucq. Its a classic western, which we want to produce in Spain. And theres a Mexican who wants to produce Juan Solo. Soon well see which one Ill be doing itll be the first one I get the money for. Stars participate as soon as they think youre financially viable. But they want to act for me. First, I have the Pyschomagic documentary, which Ill start filming at the end of the year. Im going to make it with real people, a digital camera, and sound, and thats all. Youll see how crazy Psychomagic is. Its wild but useful surrealism theater taken to its furthest extent. OLIVIER ZAHM Besides your films, how do you put Psychomagic into practice? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Ive invented whats called Social Psychomagic, collective acts to heal events that have affected a life or a country, like the slaughter of 2,000 students in Mexico. Or the healing of Guernica or Hiroshima. Suffering should be erased with a positive act. OLIVIER ZAHM Thats a very good idea. I went to Nagasaki and everything is set up so that people forget. Theres the museum, but you still feel like the past has been erased. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY The Japanese have chased out all the people affected by the atomic bomb, as if its a national disgrace. They dont want to see them anymore, which is tragic. Im going to make this movie and if I live long enough, Ill do the four films. LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT OLIVIER ZAHM The last things I want to talk about are women, love, and sexuality. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY You want me to call my wife, Pascale, whos 40 years younger than me? You know, now, at 80 years old, Ive found my ideal woman. I dont come from love; my mother never touched me. In a certain way, she had contempt for me because my father raped her. Im the second child. She told me, After you were born, I got my tubes tied so I wouldnt have any more of that bastards children. So, I never knew maternal love. I talk about that in my books. I grew up in a mans world, with masculine values, with a total lack of knowledge of women. I thought of women as

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peripherals who always wanted to chop off my head. A peripheral is always competitive. A peripheral always wants what the man has. So I went from one Vietnam War to the next, until I ended up with a Eurasian with Vietnamese roots! And thats when I began to understand that women are slaves in this world. Its a terrible thing, the way religion, the economy, and society keep them out or make them play a terrible role. There are a few women who fight it, but many partake in it, like women who wear a chador. I wasnt finding the woman I was in harmony with spiritually. There was always doubt and effort. I made an effort to adapt myself. I never had an obvious encounter, one in which there wasnt explanation, in which things were what they are. OLIVIER ZAHM Then it happened? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes. PASCALE Clear is the word. Anyone who reads Alejandros books realizes that, despite the problems, he has a very strong ideal of love. He told me once that his conception of love was similar to that of mythology. I also had a very strong ideal of love. I lived with the promise, with the certainty, that I would experience a love story like this one. When we met, it was obvious right away. Ive always been convinced that important things present themselves in a totally obvious and natural way. Its like the artistic vocation: you dont choose to be an artist. You are one or youre not, its clear. Anyone can see that Alejandro is very strong, very fulfilled, and accomplished. The difference in our ages is, for me, a stabilizing factor. We never battle each other; were not rivals; we have an absolutely harmonious and complementary relationship. And I think that in a love relationship, you really have to have settled a lot of things. To feel well with the other person, you have to feel well with yourself. OLIVIER ZAHM Was it love at first sight? ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Yes, it was incredible. Everything was written. It was strange, because I was reading the Tarot. I raised my head and I saw her. PASCALE It was like a movie. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY I was with another woman so, we waited a year without being lovers or anything. I wasnt in a state to play out the secret and cheat. PASCALE Hes always dignified. I felt that we were connected beyond any kind of relationship based on seduction or age. There wasnt any seduction. When I left the reading, I cried. I felt that he was passing something on that was very important. I was overwhelmed. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Our lives changed. Im immersed in emotional tranquility. I know we wont have children, unless theres a miracle. Shes a painter. I make drawings, she colors them, and we both sign them. They are our children. When you find the sacred relationship you still think women and men are beautiful, but you dont have the desire to have other relationships. Its not a moral choice, youre just naturally full. PASCALE I really think that the key to sexual fulfillment is love, because with love theres the trust and abandon which allows you to give deeply, whereas in the search for pleasure with many partners and experiences, you always stop midway. With love you go as far as possible, as high as possible. As a result, sexually, its wonderful, because everything comes together, everything is interwoven. ALEJANDRO JODOROWSKY Theres the mythology of a relationship that goes beyond death. Thats why it becomes sacred, because you enter into the mythology.

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