PETER BOGDANOVICH July 28, 1977 Interview How did you become a director?

I started acting in New York in stock theater and television between the ages of fifteen and nineteen I worked for the New York !hakes"eare #estival and Joe $a"" in 19%7 as a s"ear carrier in Othello I was also studying acting with !tella &dler at the ti'e &t a certain "oint, so'e ti'e before I was eighteen, I decided that I(d )ust as soon not be an actor, that I(d rather direct It was a big 'istake, because actors don(t have to work as hard and get "aid 'ore 'oney *he first thing I did as a director was an +ff,-roadway "roduction of The Big Knife by .lifford +dets, when I was about nineteen or twenty +dets was the first "erson to give 'e a chance to direct "rofessionally I did another "lay +ff,-roadway about four years later, /auf'an and 0art(s Once in a Lifetime 1uring that ti'e I was also writing about 'ovies, because I didn(t have any 'oney and wanted to see the' for free *here was a ti'e when I was on every screening list in New York, and I also got all these books fro' "ublishers that I couldn(t "ossibly read I only had a s'all roo' and it was filled with books I was writing for a strange little 'aga2ine called Ivy that a""eared about si3 ti'es a year, and then eventually hit the big ti'e and wrote so'e "ieces for Esquire &t so'e "oint the director #rank *ashlin ca'e to New York I(d 'et hi' in 0ollywood when I was doing an Esquire "iece about Jerry 4ewis 0e said, 56hat are you doing in New York7 1on(t you want to direct 'ovies78 I said, 5Yes 8 0e said, 56ell, they 'ake the' in .alifornia 8 !o a few 'onths later 'y for'er wife, $olly $latt, and I were in a car driving west !oon afterwards I was at a 'ovie screening and 9oger .or'an was sitting there 0e said, 5You write for Esquire, don(t you7 I(ve read your stuff 6ould you ever consider writing screen"lays78 I said, 5!ure 8 0e said, 56hy don(t you write a screen"lay for 'e7 I want so'ething that(s a kind of a co'bination of Bridge on the River Kwai and Lawrence of Arabia -ut chea" 8 !o $olly and I wrote a scri"t called The riminals, which was never "roduced 9ight around that sa'e ti'e 9oger was doing a 'otorcycle "icture called The !ild Angels and he asked if I would like to work on this "icture I said, 51oing what78 0e said, 5I don(t know Just co'e on down and be with 'e 6e(re having "roble's with the fil' It(s a short shooting schedule, only three weeks, and the scri"t needs a "olish I(ll "ay you :12% a week now, and when we(re in "roduction :1%; 8 I read the scri"t It was really bad, sort of like a 1isney "icture *here were things in it like< 5*he 'otorcycles roar by .ut to frog(s $+= of 'otorcycles going by 8 *here was another scene with a horse and it said, 5.ut to horse 0orse looks .ut to horse(s "oint of view of fight 8 9oger said, 56e(re going to start shooting in about a week 6e need the scri"t rewritten 8 I re'e'ber he had a yellow legal "ad where he had written about forty "ages of notes on the scri"t 0e called the writer and said, 5Now, .huck, on the first "age there(s a "roble' about >8 &nd he was interru"ted, listened for about ten 'inutes and said, 5I(ll get back to you, .huck 8 9oger then turns to 'e and says, 50e doesn(t like 'y first note 6hy don(t you rewrite it78 !o in about five or si3 days I rewrote the whole scri"t, for which I didn(t receive any credit, not that I asked for it I hel"ed cast it because ?eorge .hakiris, who was going to be in it, @uit when he got the scri"t 0e said it was Ai''oral ( 9oger had to figure out who was going to "lay the "art and decided that 'aybe $eter #onda could do it I re'e'bered hi' looking very "re""y in Lilithand wondered if he could "lay this biker guy, but he ca'e into the office wearing aviator sunglasses and I thought he really looked fabulous 6e gave hi' the "art and I 'ade sure he wore the glasses in al'ost every

shot 6e shot for about three weeks I did al'ost everything you could do on a "icture I got the laundry, 'ade sure the lunch was there, hel"ed find locations 6e had real 0ells &ngels on the "icture 9oger said, 5-e sure you know before you get the setu" where your ne3t shot is, because the 'inute you have to think the crew will fall a"art 1on(t thinkB)ust goC 6hen you finish a shot, )ust turn to the' and say, A+kay, we(re over here ( Dven if you don(t know where the hell you(re going, )ust "retend It kee"s everybody on their toes, and kee"s 'orale u" 8 Eeanwhile, the 0ells &ngels didn(t feel like hurrying u" so 'uch 9oger would say, 54et(s start the bikes now &ll the bikes down the roadC8 and they(d )ust sort of leisurely kick over their engines, and after a cou"le tries so'eone would turn around and say, 5It doesn(t start, 'an 8 !o then it would be a half,hour while we waited for the' to get the bikes going, and we ke"t falling further and further behind schedule *he last cou"le days we were doing a fight scene between the townies and the &ngels 6e didn(t have any e3tras, so I "layed one of the townies 9oger said, 59un in there 8 Now, they had seen 'e standing ne3t to 9oger, who' they hated -oth of us wore sunglasses and they thought< sunglasses, sonofabitch director and all that !o I run in there and they )ust about killed 'e *hey were kicking 'e, and I never "rayed so 'uch for a director to call 5.ut 8 &fter about three days of shooting the guy who was the ringleader ca'e over to 'e and said, 50ey, 'an, I(' sorry about hassling you before 8 I said, 5*hat(s all right 8 0e said, 56e thought you were a shit, you know, but you(re all right 8 *hat was 'y first review *hey(ve gotten "rogressively worse & few days before we were su""osed to finish, 9oger said, 56e(re going to have to throw out the rest of the scri"t and )ust "iece it together 8 I said, 59oger, we(ve only got about half the "icture 8 0e said, 5No, we(ve got three,@uarters of it 8 I said, 56hat about the other @uarter78 56e(ll )ust have to get a second unit to go out and shoot this )unk I can(t do it I(' not going to s"end any 'ore 'oney 8 I said, 5I(d love to do the second unit 8 0e said, 5Ey secretary or you, it doesn(t 'ake any difference 8 0e wra""ed the shoot and we went back to 4os &ngeles 0e called 'e and said, 5+kay, I want you to do the second unit 8 I went out and shot for a week with a full crew, then for another week with a s'aller crew, and then finally the last week with )ust 'e and a ca'era'an, one actor and a bike &ctually for a while we were first unit, because we had $eter #onda and Nancy !inatra I did a whole se@uence with -ruce 1ern where he gets killed u" in the 'ountains *he only thing 9oger said was, 5You know how 0itchcock works 8 I said, 56hat do you 'ean78 0e said, 50e "lans everything 8 I said, 5Yeah 8 0e said, 5You know how 0oward 0awks works 8 I said, 5Yeah 8 0e said, 50e never "lans anything 8 I said, 59ight 8 0e said, 5+n this one be 0itchcock 8 I said, 5+kay 8 I had a cou"le fights with the cine'atogra"her who knew that I hadn(t done anything and wanted to take advantage of it I learned a lesson because I said, 5I want to shoot over there 8 0e said, 5You can(t shoot over there, the sun(s not there 8 I said, 56ell, will it ever be there78 0e looked u" and said, 5No 8 I believed hi' *wenty 'inutes later I look over and say, 50ey, there(s sun over there 8 -ut it was too late because we(d already got the shot so'ewhere else, and I figured this guy didn(t know what the hell he was doing, either !o that(s how I learned to direct "ictures 6hen I finished shooting the stuff, 9oger said, 5*he cutter(s got too 'uch to do You(ll have to cut your own 'aterial together 8 I didn(t have any idea how to cut, so we got a 'achine and a guy who knew so'ething about it, and I started to cut I worked twenty,two weeks on the "icture, fro' "re"roduction, shooting, second unit, everything, and it

was a twenty,two,week course in "icture 'aking I haven(t learned as 'uch since The !ild Angels beca'e a very big success It cost about :F;;,;;; and grossed about :% 'illion It was 9oger(s 'ost successful 'ovie at that ti'e, and he asked 'e if I wanted to direct 'y own "icture, and that(s how Targets ca'e about 9oger said, 5I(ll "ay :G,;;; for you and your wife, but before that I want you to fi3 u" another "icture for 'e, sa'e "rice It(s a little 9ussian "icture I(ve got called "torm louds of #enus It(s got the greatest s"ecial effects, rocket shi"s taking off and landing on =enus and s"ace stations It(s great stuff, but there(s one "roble' with it *here(s no girls in it It(s )ust a bunch of guys wandering around 8 I said, 56hat do you want 'e to do78 0e said, 5I can sell it if you can "ut so'e girls in it You can go shoot with Ea'ie =an 1oren but I can(t afford sound 8 0e told 'e to go down to Ealibu to 'atch the e3isting footage 6ell, you all know what Ealibu looks like It does not look like the -lack !ea, which was where the 9ussians shot their =enus 6e went to Ealibu *here were a lot of rocks in one "articular "lace, so we shot all this stuff on the rocks 6e had seven girls I don(t know why, but I thought if they(re on =enus they have to be blond !o'e of the' weren(t blond but we gave the' wigs $olly designed gills of so'e kind because I thought they ought to be 'er'aids *hen I wondered how they were going to walk on the rocks *he costu'es were tights with rubber things sticking off the' and when they got wet they started to droo" You never saw such a grou" of saggy,assed sirens walking across the rocks It was an unbelievable "icture 6e shot five days on the rocks *here was no dialogue, because we had no sound 6e said, 50ow are they going to co''unicate78 I thought, 5*ele"athyC8 !o Ea'ie =an 1oren would look 'eaningfully at one of the other girls and they would go get so'e fish or whatever 6hen all this was cut together it was totally i'"ossible to understand, so 9oger said to 'e, 5You(ll have to "ut in so'e narration 8 *his went on for 'onths Dventually we finished the fil', which was called #oyage to the $lanet of $rehistoric !omen It(s a ridiculous 'ovie I directed ten 'inutes of it, that(s all &nyway, back to Targets 9oger said, 5-oris /arloff owes 'e two days( work I 'ade a "icture with -oris and Jack Nicholson called The Terror I want you to take about twenty 'inutes of /arloff footage fro' The Terror and shoot twenty 'ore 'inutes with /arloff You(ll be able to shoot twenty 'inutes in two days I(ve shot whole "ictures in two days *hen get a bunch of other actors and shoot another forty 'inutes in ten days and we(ve got an eighty,'inute /arloff "icture &re you interested78 -eing twenty,si3 and interested in al'ost anything which would give 'e a chance to direct, I said yes I looked at the footage fro' The Terror and wondered what I was going to do with this footage of /arloff skulking around this 'ansion I didn(t want to 'ake that kind of 'ovie -oris didn(t even scare 'e very 'uch, so I figured, 5I(ll 'ake hi' an actor in this fil' 8 I was going to begin the "icture in a "ro)ection roo' with scenes fro' The Terror *he lights co'e u" and there(s -oris sitting there with 9oger .or'an, and -oris turns to 9oger and says, 5It really was a dreadful 'ovie, wasn(t it78 9oger turns and 'u'bles so'ething I figured it wasn(t a bad idea, because if he(s a disgruntled actor then I have an alibi for all this lousy footage *hat was how the fil' started *hen $olly said, 56hy don(t we write a story about the guy who shot those "eo"le in &ustin, *e3as78 I don(t know if any of you re'e'ber, but in 19GG there was a guy na'ed .harles 6hit'an in *e3as who killed his wife and his 'other and then went u" that tower in &ustin with a rifle and rando'ly killed a bunch of "eo"le for a""arently no reason

!o we crosscut that with a story about an aging 'ovie star who "layed in a lot of horror "ictures who feels he(s all washed u" and has decided he(s going to @uit the business because the horror of the 'odern age is 'uch worse than any =ictorian horror *he tension between those two stories was what we ended u" working on It(s a bit manqu%, as the #rench would say, but it kind of worked 6e had to kill /arloff off about halfway through the "icture because I only had hi' for two days I showed the outline to !a' #uller and he said, 56hy did you kill /arloff off in the 'iddle of the "icture, kid78 I said, 5I(ve only got hi' for two days 8 51on(t think about thatC Ignore thatC 0e(s the star of the "icture You can(t kill hi' off in the 'iddle 8 I said, 5-ut 9oger won(t give 'e the ti'e 8 5Ignore thatC8 he said 56rite the scri"t like you got hi' for the whole "icture Never worry about anything "ractical when you(re writing a "icture 6hen you(re directing it, that(s another "roble', but right now you(re writing it 8 In three hours !a' "roceeded to rewrite it, @uite brilliantly &fter I looked at the changes I said, 5-ut !a''y, this is a co'"lete rewrite I(ve got to give you credit 8 0e said, 5Naw If you give 'e credit they(ll )ust think I wrote the whole thing 8 I rewrote the scri"t again and gave it to 9oger, who said, 50ow are you going to shoot all this stuff with /arloff in two days78 I said, 5I can(t 8 0e said, 5$eter, I(' not going to "ay for any 'ore ti'e 8 !o I called u" /arloff(s agent and we tried several things 4uckily /arloff loved the scri"t I said, 5I need five days 8 It was a big deal and cost 9oger a little e3tra 'oney, but we finally got /arloff for five days and shot all the stuff you see in the fil' *hen we shot with other "eo"le for about twenty days It was really about fifteen days of "rinci"al "hotogra"hy and ten days of second unit, which was only five "eo"le< 'e and 4Hs2lI /ovHcs and a cou"le other "eo"le 6e stole all the shots on the freeway 6e didn(t even ask "er'ission, because we knew they would turn us down 6hen the sni"er is shooting the cars on the freeway, we had two ca'eras and a walkie,talkie syste' I had so'e of 'y neighbors in cars *hey said, 5&ll right, we(re co'ing on the -urbank on,ra'" 8 I said, 5+kay, okay, I see you +kay, get ready, here we go 8 &nd as they ca'e by the ca'era I would say, 5-angC8 over the walkie,talkie and they would react to the shot 4Hs2lI asked, 56hat ha""ens if we see a co"78 I said, 5#il' hi' 8 *he shots of the "olice you see in the "icture are real "olice *hey didn(t know they were in the shot &ll together the fil' cost :1F;,;;;, including :22,;;; for -oris 6e finished it and every studio turned it down *hey didn(t think it was very good or 'aybe they thought it was too violent ?od knows what they thought, they )ust weren(t interested in it, e3ce"t for $ara'ount, which sort of liked it but not enough to "ut u" any 'oney 9oger wanted the :1F;,;;; that he had "ut out 6e did a screening at &rthur /night(s J!. cine'a class and invited the trade "ress I said, 5If you like it, "lease review it 8 6ell, they ha""ened to like it, so they wrote reviews in the trades, and the ne3t day $ara'ount called and said, 56e(re still interested 0ave you sold it yet78 I said, 5Ye", we(ve got a deal, but it hasn(t really been closed yet 8 $ara'ount says, 56hat(s the deal for78 and I say, 5:1F;,;;; 8 *hey said, 56ell, we(ll 'ake it :1%;,;;;,8 and they bought it *hen there was a big internal struggle at the studio -ob Dvans and .harlie -luhdorn were the ones who really liked it, but al'ost nobody else at the studio did, so it wasn(t well distributed and nobody really saw the fil' *he ti'ing wasn(t great, either You 'ight think "eo"le would be interested in seeing a "icture about rando' violence after two assassinationsBEartin 4uther /ing and -obby /ennedyBbut they weren(t 6e finished shooting )ust before /ing was assassinated, and the guy who shot hi' used a F; ;G rifle, )ust like the one we used in the "icture, and drove a white Eustang, which the boy does in the fil'

Do you think youll work with Corman again? It was a 'arvelous way to start, because you learn a certain disci"line that you never lose ?uerrilla fil''aking is so'ething you should all learn You steal, cheat, lie and do anything you can to get the scene I think that(s why 'any of the older directors were so good, because they had a disci"line that was i'"osed fro' outside *hat(s the terrible thing about having too 'uch freedo', "articularly at the start of a career I think there(s nothing better than being told, 54ook, you(ve got to do it in three days You(ve only got this 'uch 'oney, so do it this way or you(re not going to get it done 8 In the old days, so'ebody like John #ord had only so 'uch fil' and that(s all It wasn(t that he wanted to be econo'ical *he guys in the front office said, 5*hat(s it *hat(s all you(ve got 8 &t .olu'bia for years they wouldn(t let you "rint 'ore than one take &nd the whole idea of 54et(s go8 is i'"ortant ?et the crew going 56e got this shot over here, now we(re over here 8 /ee" it 'oving, because there(s a terrible kind of lethargy and boredo' that sets in on a crew Eaking "ictures is boring for everybody e3ce"t the director, and so'eti'es even for hi' -ut the 'ore you get everybody going, the less boring it is I was ha""y working for 9oger I loved it 0e gave 'e the ground rules and then left 'e alone 0e also loved the "icture when it was finished 0e didn(t give 'e 'uch 'oney, but so what7 Where did The Last Picture Show come from? 6hat I think Targets lacked was a sense of the "erfor'ances I began as an actor at age fifteen, and when I(' on the set I still a""roach everything fro' the actor(s "oint of view /arloff was good in Targets and the boy in it was also good, but everybody else could have been better 6hat I really wanted to do on The Last $icture "how was concentrate on the actors, to really get good "erfor'ances out of the' +ne other reason why I wanted to 'ake the "icture was because after reading the novel by 4arry EcEurtry I didn(t know how to fil' it !olving the "roble' of how to turn this story into a fil' was very intriguing to 'e I liked the fact that it was about a world I knew nothing about It was @uite a challenge to 'ake a fil' about what was, basically, a foreign country to 'e $eo"le ke"t giving 'e 4arry(s book to read and I never read it !al Eineo, a sweet, dear friend, gave it to 'e, as did two or three other "eo"le I finally read it about two years later and liked it very 'uch I wanted to do it but I couldn(t get the rights *he "roducer -ert !chneider, who had liked Targets, said to 'e once, 5If you ever want to do a "icture, let 'e know 8 & lot of "eo"le say that, so I didn(t believe it, but I called hi' u" and said, 50ey, were you on the level about wanting to do a "icture78 0e said, 5Yeah 8 I said, 56ell, I read a book I liked called The Last $icture "how by 4arry EcEurtry ?o get it and read it 8 I wanted to see if he was really on the level &bout a week later he called and said, 56ell, I read the book 4et(s 'ake it 8 I said, 5#ine, e3ce"t this other guy owns the rights and I think he(s got so'e "retty bad ideas how to 'ake this thing 8 -ert said, 50ow do you want to 'ake it78 I said, 5I )ust want to 'ake the book 8 0e said, 5*hat(s what we all like, isn(t it78 !o he got the rights and we 'ade it It was really "retty si'"le 4arry wrote a draft, which I rewrote *he trouble with 4arry was that he really didn(t like his book as 'uch as I did 0e ke"t changing the scri"t I would say, 54arry, this wasn(t in the book 8 0e said, 5No, it(s better 8 I said, 5No, it(s worse,8 and I would change it back to the book It(s funny correcting the writer hi'self 0e had written the book in five weeks out of a kind of anger, and I don(t think he felt the sa'e thing I did co'ing fresh to it *he scri"t really was "retty 'uch the book with "arts cut out 6e really could have 'ade the "icture another hour longer How did you come to cast Ben Johnson in the film?

I couldn(t think who could "lay the "art of !a' the 4ion I went to Nashville and interviewed old country,and,western singers, thinking 'aybe I(d find so'e great old faces there *hen one day I thought, 5-en JohnsonC8 -ut he didn(t want to do it 0e said, 5$eter, there are too 'any words I can(t say all those words 8 !o I called John #ord and said, 5I(ve got this wonderful "art for -en and he doesn(t want to do it 0e says there(s too 'any words 8 5+h, .hrist,8 he says 5-en(s always been like that 6hen we were shooting &ellow Ribbon -en would co'e on the set and go over to the scri"t girl and ask, AI got any words today7( If she said yes, he(d go and sulk If she said no, he was ha""y &ll he had to do was ride 8 #ord says, 56here is he7 I(ll call hi' 8 !o about an hour later #ord calls 'e back and says, 50e(ll do it 8 *hen -en calls and he says, 5.hrist, you got the old 'an on 'e 8 I said, 56ell, I )ust want you to do this "icture 8 !o he ca'e in about three or four days later and sat down in the office 0e had the scri"t in his hand and said, 5$ete, I )ust don(t think I can do this for you, boy 8 I said, 5-en, you(ve got to do it 8 0e says, 56hy do you kee" saying that78 I said, 5-ecause there(s nobody else that could do it 8 0e said, 5+h, shit, you can get ten other guys 8 I said, 5No You "lay this "art and you(ll win the +scar 8 #inally he sla''ed the scri"t shut and said, 5&ll right, I(ll do the godda'ned thing 8 I said, 54ook, we(re going to start rehearsing *hursday 8 0e said, 56hat have I gotta do78 I said, 5You don(t have to do anything but read through the scenes I(d like the cast to 'eet you 'ore than anything else 8 !o on *hursday I introduce hi' to everybody and say, 54et(s )ust read your scene 8 !o we start to read and he(s got the scri"t closed 0e doesn(t o"en it because he already knows every line he(s got in the thing, letter "erfect 6e finish and I say, 5You know, you(re a sonofabitch 8 0e says, 56hy78 I say, 56hat the hell do you 'ean, telling 'e you don(t know how to read words7 You didn(t have to learn the lines by now 8 0e said, 56ell, $ete, I(' not too good at reading, so I )ust figured I(d better know (e' 8 &nyway, he did win the +scar *he to""er is that three years later I(' talking to hi' about a "icture we wanted to do with 1uke 6ayne and Ji''y !tewart, and he says, 5I like it, but there(s not too 'any words in there for 'e 8 Can I ask you a blunt question? ou!e worked with a lot of !ery good actors" Was Cybill #he$herd hired on the basis of her looks? No, she wasn(t hired on the basis of her looks I was in New York casting and she ca'e in and took off her shoes and sat on the floor ne3t to a kind of a "ot with a cou"le flowers sticking out of it I said, 56hat do you do78 !he said, 5I go to college 8 56here do you go to college78 5I go to 0unter 8 56ell, what are you taking78 5Dnglish literature 8 !he(s behaving like she doesn(t give a da'n about being there, and I asked her which authors she likes, and she says, 51ostoevsky 8 56hat have you read of his78 4ong "ause 5I can(t think of anything right now 8 -ut as she said it she "layed with a flower *here wasn(t any kind of feeling that she had been caught short It was as if I was the du''y for asking such a stu"id @uestion It was the 'ost wonderful reading I(ve ever heard It turned out she was )ust nervous and that(s the way she acts in those situations !he gets rather @uiet and shy but it co'es out as very cool -ut when she touched that flower I e3"ected it to wilt, and I thought to 'yself, 5*hat(s the characterC8 I hadn(t understood the character until that 'o'ent Jacy should be a girl who(s kind of destructive to 'en, but not on "ur"ose !he )ust flits fro' flower to flower and they wilt in her wake, but it(s not like she goes out and says, 5I(' going to kill that guy 8 *hat(s the character we evolved, but she gave it to 'e )ust by touching the flower in the audition I think one of the finest moments in The Last Picture Show is the last shot with Cloris %eachman &ust before you dissol!e to the $an"

You 'ean when she(s trying to talk to hi' and she can(t @uite get anything out7 Dssentially, she had so'e answers to this situation !he see'ed to gli'"se the sun through a cloud and was trying to find the words to say it *his character is not an elo@uent wo'an, so she lost the words -ut she knew that it would all be okay I was telling her all this as we were doing it !he was great, though the "roducers wanted 'e to cut the whole last se@uence with .loris and *i' *hey thought the "icture should end on the road I said, 5I only 'ade the "icture so I could have that scene 8 It(s the best scene in the "icture I had to cut so'e other things as a sacrifice You have to give the' so'ething so you can kee" the stuff you like *hat(s true in life too ou s$oke earlier of studying with #tella 'dler" Can you say what she taught you? I was involved in 'any theater "roductions as an actor and stagehand and dresser, "erha"s forty of the', before I ever directed Dverything I know about co''unicating with actors I learned fro' !tella, things I could fall back on when 'y instinctual a""roach failed 'e Instinct will take you only so far -ecause she taught acting in such a co'"lete way, she was also talking about directing I found the first si3 'onths of her class fascinating but )ust didn(t understand what she was talking about You needed to be eighteen to get into the class but I lied because I was only si3teen &fter a few 'onths, it all clicked into "lace and the basic idea of what theater and acting areBthis heightened reality rather than 'undane naturalis'Breally began to 'ake sense to 'e 1irecting actually started for 'e because I was sitting around with five actors fro' !tella(s class and I said, 56hy don(t I direct you guys in a scene78 Jsually scene class would be a two,character scene or a 'onologue, so having five actors in a scene all interacting was unusual 6e "ut it on for the class and when it was over !tella stood u" and said, 5-ravo darlingsC -ut you(ve been directed 6ho directed you78 *hey all "ointed at 'e at the back of the roo' !he turned to 'e and said, 5-rilliant, $eterC8 !o I figured I wasn(t bad at this Did you ha!e any contact with #anford (eisner or %ee #trasberg? I was in !trasberg(s class once, but that(s about it I(' not a big fan of his I(' very 'uch fro' the &dler school, and !tella didn(t think !trasberg was a good teacher !trasberg was a "erversion of the !tanislavsky 'ethod, and !tella would be the one to know because she(s the only "erson in the Jnited !tates who actually studied with the 'an hi'self !he heard it fro' the horse(s 'outh !tanislavsky said that acting is fifty "ercent e3ternal and fifty "ercent internal !trasberg co'"letely eli'inated the e3ternal and was interested e3clusively in the internal, which is not a good thing for acting Did your time as an actor hel$ you as a screenwriter? &cting is very 'uch a "art of writing 6ith so'e scenes I(ll act out the "arts 'yself and transcribe what I say Was the idea for the sla$stick Whats U ! Doc" your own? 6arner -ros ca'e to 'e and said, 56ould you 'ake a "icture with !treisand78 *hey had a scri"t they wanted 'e to do called A 'lim(se of Tiger, but it wasn(t the kind of fil' I wanted to 'ake $icture "how hadn(t even o"ened at that "oint and only two "eo"le had seen it +ne was !teve EcKueen, who wanted 'e to 'ake The 'etaway 0e ca'e into 'y office after seeing the fil' and said, 5I(' )ust an actor, 'an, but you(re a fil''aker You only 'ade one 'istake in that "icture 8 I said, 56hat was that78 0e said, 5You never should have cut away fro' the diving board 8 If you re'e'ber, there(s a scene in $icture "how when .ybill stri"s at the swi''ing "ool *he other was -arbra !treisand and she wanted to work with 'e, so John .alley, the head of 6arner -ros , said, 5!o you don(t like this scri"t 6hat would you like to

'ake78 I said, 5& screwball co'edy, like Bringing )( Baby, with -arbra & s@uare "rofessor and a daffy da'e who breaks hi' down live ha""ily ever after 8 0e said, 51o it 6ho do you want to write it78 I said, 56ell, I worked with -enton and New'an at Esquire 8 .alley said, 5?reat, they )ust did a "icture for us 8 I called the' and they e3"lained they were starting another fil' in three weeks I said, 5If -en 0echt and 0oward 0awks can do "carface in eleven days, we can do this in three weeks 8 6e worked for three weeks and ended u" with a draft that needed a lot of work I rewrote it a little and had a reading with 9yan and -arbra I read all the other "arts and talked 'y way through all the action se@uences, and at the end of it they both co''itted to it John .alley suggested we bring in -uck 0enry to rewrite it, who said, 5You(re going to hate 'e but I don(t think it(s co'"licated enough You need another suitcase 8 !o we added the whole *o" !ecret suitcase which was ins"ired by the $entagon $a"ers story *hat(s actually why we cast Eichael Eur"hy, because he looked a bit like 1aniel Dllsberg -uck rewrote the scri"t, which is 'ore or less what we shot 6e 'ade u" so'e of the )okes as we were "lanning and shooting it #or the "arty scene in the 'illionaire(s house, all -uck wrote in the scri"t was< 5*here is now a fight which will be brilliantly staged by the director 8 *hat was it *hanks a lot, -uck *he fil' ended u" being the second,biggest hit of the year, after The 'odfather, which actually I turned down because I didn(t want to 'ake a Eafia fil' *here was an early, glit2y screening of !hat*s )(+ ,oc- and the audience see'ed to be resisting it *hey weren(t loose enough for a fil' like that It(s like everyone was sitting there asking the'selves, 56hat is this78 *here had been so'e laughs but it wasn(t as war'ly received as it would later be by the "ublic &bout ten 'inutes in, John .assavetes stands u", in the 'iddle of the "icture, turns to the audience and shouts, very loudly, 5I can(t believe he(s doing thisC8 *he "lace broke u", and fro' then on thee'y loved it John and I beca'e friends after that It(s 'y favorite review of any fil' of 'ine It looks like you had fun making Whats U ! Doc" !hat*s )(+ ,oc- was the 'ost fun of any "icture I(ve ever 'ade It was absolute heaven fro' beginning to end I didn(t give a da'n if we ever 'ade the "icture, an enviable "osition to be in *his hasn(t been the case on every "icture I(ve 'ade, but you 'ust never give a da'n if the whole thing falls a"art 5It doesn(t 'atterBwe(ll do so'ething else8< that(s the only way to do "ictures, because when you start caring they kill you 6hen you start saying, 5If I don(t 'ake this "icture I(' going to die,8 they will 'ake you "ay I re'e'ber -arbra !treisand told 'e before we did the "icture, 5I(ve never been directed Nobody(s ever directed 'e in a "icture 8 I said, 56ell, you(re about to be directed,8 and I directed the hell out of her !he wouldn(t listen to 'e a lot of ti'es !he wouldn(t cut her nails, for instance I said, 5-arbra, this girl is a college kid and she wouldn(t have these 'ovie,star nails 8 !he said, 5I(' not going to cut 'y nails 8 I said, 5Jesus, first of all, your hands look better without the long nails 8 !he said, 5No, they don(t I have stubby fingers 8 I said, 5You don(t have stubby fingers 8 !he ha""ens to have very nice hands and her fingers don(t look stubby at all -ut she has these silly long nails, so I 'ade her carry so'ething all the way through the "icture !he(s got a suitcase or a coat over her ar' or so'ething so I wouldn(t see her godda'n nails -ut generally we really got along and worked well together *he director is an actor(s first audience and she wanted to "lease 'e !he knew e3actly what I wanted

6e took over !an #rancisco and wrecked a cou"le of streets and got in a lot of trouble 6e had a hell of a scene when all the cars go into the water at the end *he first guy that went in was the =olkswagen *hey told 'e =olkswagens float, but it ain(t so *his thing went down like a stone, and it was very dee" *he guy drove in at about seventy 'iles an hour without an o3ygen tank 6e were all standing there dying because the guy didn(t co'e u" for a 'inute, two 'inutes #inally he co'es u" having esca"ed through the windshield which luckily ca'e in on hi', because he couldn(t get the door o"en 6e had seven or eight ca'eras on those "articular shots, so if one ca'era 'alfunctioned we would still get it John #ord gave 'e a very good "iece of advice 0e said, 5Never rehearse action 8 I said, 56hy not78 0e said, 5!o'ebody could get hurt 8 It(s a cry"tic re'ark, as all of #ord(s re'arks were, but it 'akes sense 6hat you do is discuss everything that can "ossibly ha""en and what you want and what you(ll take if you don(t get that, and then you do it Jsually you get elaborate "ieces of action on the first take because nobody wants to do it again, and they all work like hell to get it right +ne of the last shots in The Last $icture "how is where all the guys are standing around the truck and the kid is lying on the ground dead, and it builds until *i' -otto's yells out, 50e was swee"ing, you sons of bitchesC8 0e "icks u" the body and carries it to the 'ar@uee of the theater I wanted it to be without a cut I didn(t want the ca'era to leave hi' fro' the 'o'ent he said 50e was swee"ing8 to the ti'e he carries the body over and walks away It was about fifty feet fro' there to the theater, so he had to "ick u" the body and carry it, and the ca'era was on a truck It was a co'"licated shot for the actor because of the e'otion and very co'"licated for the crew because there was a 2oo' involved which I wanted to hide 6e set it u" before lunch and I talked to *i' all through lunch I was trying to find out what he was going to do without telling hi' what to do *his was a line that I wouldn(t let hi' rehearse I knew it was a line I only wanted to hear once *hat(s a 'ovie,acting thing It(s not true on the stage, but there are certain lines in a 'ovie that should only ha""en once, because the 'inute you have to do it again it beco'es 'echanical *hat first e'otion is very i'"ortant for certain 'o'ents *he crew ca'e back fro' lunch and I said, 56e are not getting a shot of a guy carrying a body across the street 6e are shooting a bridge being blown u" *here is only one ca'era and we(ve only got one bridge I don(t want any 'istakes fro' you guys No e3cuses 8 !o we did the shot and we got it, thank ?od 4uckily *i' was su"erb and the crew was su"erb &s a 'atter of fact, to "rove 'y "oint we actually did the shot twice *he second one was technically betterBbut the "erfor'ance wasn(t there *he first one broke your heart It(s the only ti'e I(ve ever been 'oved to tears on a set by an actor What did Barbra #treisand mean when she said that she hadnt e!er been directed before? Eost directors have no idea how to direct actors It(s rare that they do 6illia' 6yler would )ust say, 51o it again 8 =ery few of the older guyshad any theatrical e3"erience, but they did have a sense of what they wanted Did you write the scri$t o# Pa er $oo%? I was sent a scri"t called Addie $ray which was based on a book It wasn(t too good but there were two scenes in it that were wonderful< the cafL scene and the scene on the hill with *ri3ie *hose two scenes were the only two scenes that re'ained after the rewriting -ut they were so da'ned good that I said to 'yself, 5Jesus, I could do so'ething with this 8 I saw the whole thing as so'e kind of antiM!hirley *e'"le 'ovie I read the book and there were so'e things that weren(t in the scri"t that I "ut back in and so'e things that I took out 6e didn(t co'e u" with an ending until we

shot it I finally ca'e u" with it the night before we shot it 6e had that great location, that wonderful road, and we knew she was going to co'e after hi' but we weren(t sure how, so I ca'e u" with that line about the :2;;, which got 'e out of a lot of trouble I ca'e u" with the title $a(er .oon, which nobody at $ara'ount liked I thought Addie $ray sounded like a snake or a li2ard or so'ething *hey all said, 56hy do you want to call it $a(er .oon7 6hat(s it got to do with the "icture78 I said, 56hat the hell does it 'atter what it has to do with the "icture7 It(s a good title 8 I said to the writer, 56e(ve got a "roble' You know those "a"er 'oons that you sat in at carnivals and they took your "icture7 6e(ve got to "ut a scene in so they(ll think there(s a reason for the title 8 I called u" +rson 6elles who was in 9o'e and said, 50ey, what do you think of this title78 -ecause this is long distance to 9o'e and I wanted to 'ake sure he understood, I said, very loudly, /$a(er .oon01 *here was a long "ause, and he says, 5*hat title is so good you shouldn(t even 'ake the "icture Just release the title 8 How did you work with )atum *+eal in Pa er $oo%? 6ith great difficulty Did you ha!e to o!ercome some difficulty with her father? Jesus no, I had to kee" 9yan fro' killing her 5?odda''it, *atu', would you learn your lines7 ?odda''it, I(' not going to do it again with herC !hit, we(ve done it twenty,eight ti'esC ?et the lines right, *atu'C $eter, I can(t do it again I did $eyton $lace five thousand ti'es and I never went through anything like thisC8 *his is on a road in the 'iddle of /ansas with nothing anywhere but /ansas and the car and this rig that we had "ulling the car with the ca'era on it and twelve "eo"le hanging around It was a scene between 9yan and *atu' which "layed without a cut, and it was the end of the first act where they have this big argu'ent about the -ibles It(s really the scene where they sort of ad'it that they care about each other without saying it or ad'itting they(re going to stay together It(s one of those scenes where they don(t say what they 'ean but ho"efully you get the "oint I wanted it to be without a cut with the' driving along, so we figured the scene would take about a 'ile and a half to "lay, and we only had about a 'ile and a half where the road was good because after that you started seeing so'ething that wasn(t of the "eriod *wo 'iles down the road there was a "lace where we could turn around and co'e back, but turning around took five or si3 'inutes because the road was so narrow !o since it had to be without a cut, if they started down the road and after about three lines so'ebody blew it we(d have to go two 'iles and then turn around and go back 6e did it twenty,five ti'es the first day I re'e'ber "utting 'y ar' around 9yan and walking u" the road while I cal'ed hi' down I got hi' to do it another few ti'es and we still didn(t get it *he ne3t day it rained, and the day after it rained and we shot so'e other stuff, and a few days later we ca'e back and did it again 6e got it the second day on so'ething like the si3teenth take *atu' was eight years old and didn(t have any idea what the hell we were doing, and she sort of cared less !he(d never had any disci"line in her life !he was in a world of her own, and so'eti'es her world and the one we were trying to create on screen didn(t necessarily 'esh, like the ti'e we were shooting the carnival scene It was a night scene so it took us about three hours to light it *atu' got there about five o(clock and did what any kid would do !he started riding the #erris wheel, eating "o"corn, eating candy corn, eating "eanuts, and by the ti'e we were ready to shoot she was sick !he was on the floor 5I told you not to eat,8 said 9yan 5I told you, you

idiot 8 5+h, 1addyC8 5?et u"C8 9yan and I sort of alternated on who was going to be yelling at her You had to scare her into doing it right &fter about five weeks she really got into it and started to en)oy the shooting and was 'uch better 6hen 9yan(s character says, 5I ain(t your "a,8 I always figured fro' the first fra'e he really was her father 0e(s )ust not going to co" to it 6hen we were casting the fil', $ara'ount told 'e John 0uston had wanted to 'ake it with $aul New'an and his daughter $olly said, 56hat about 9yan(s daughter78 -ut $ara'ount said they wouldn(t use 9yan under any circu'stances because he(d had an affair with &li Eac?raw on Love "tory when she was 'arried to -ob Dvans, who was head of the studio I said, 5I won(t 'ake it with anyone else 8 !hat*s )(+ ,oc- was still "laying in theaters and was a big hit, so I forced the issue with $ara'ount It wouldn(t have been good for their stockholders to turn the fil' down How did you come to make Dais& $i''er? I read a scri"t of ,aisy .iller that was "retty bad, but when I got to the end and all of a sudden she died I was very 'oved !o I read the original 0enry Ja'es story and thought, 5I ought to 'ake this 8 In other words, the ending of the story 'ade the whole thing really 'ean so'ething *hat(s the case with 'ost stories< it(s how it finishes that 'atters 6hat does it all add u" to7 1eciding to do so'ething really co'es down to whether it 'oves 'e e'otionally, or whether it 'akes 'e laugh I 'ade ,aisy .iller because it 'oved 'e 6hat "ersuaded 'e to do it is the co'"lete 'isunderstanding of 1aisy Eiller by the young 'an 0e(s so in love with her but absolutely doesn(t get her 0e )udges her It(s why he(s na'ed 6interbourne 0e(s as cold as ice, certainly when co'"ared to her vibrancy It see's to 'e that one of the "revalent "roble's in society is that 'en don(t understand wo'en Een trust what they shouldn(t and don(t trust what they should 6interbourne is also a co'"lete )erk who thinks he(s su"erior to this young &'erican girl who is sha'eless and stubborn, but also a @uite innocent flirt *he line on the "oster was 5!he 1id as !he $leased 8 1aisy flaunts Italian custo' by being seen walking in "ublic with this 'an, but he )ust doesn(t understand where she(s co'ing fro' Ja'es "uts it very well when he has 6interbourne say at the end of the story, 5I have lived too long in foreign "arts 8 6e had #reddie 9a"hael write another version of the scri"t based on a few conversations we had about 'aking it darker, 'ore dra'atic -ut that was a 'istake, because #reddie wrote a 1ostoevsky version and it )ust didn(t work !o I went back to the book and rewrote every scene, and ended u" kee"ing only a cou"le of his ideas, like setting the tea scene in the baths *he scri"t went to arbitration and he ended u" getting credit on the fil' *hey offered 'e 5&dditional 1ialogue8 and I said, 5I(' not going to be the !a' *aylor of 'y generation 8 !a' *aylor was the guy who took credit on a version of The Taming of the "hrew &fter 5-ased on the "lay by 6illia' !hakes"eare8 it said 5&dditional 1ialogue by !a' *aylor 8 Ey original "lan was to "lay 6interbourne 'yself and have +rson direct, but he didn(t want to do it Why do you think the film was so badly recei!ed? I don(t know I(' very "roud of it, and I think everybody is good in it I think it(s beautifully shot I think the scri"t is very faithful to the book and I think the book is wonderful $eo"le don(t reali2e that al'ost all the dialogue in the "icture is by 0enry Ja'es I would )ust change certain words that were a little bit too for'al, things like 5I shouldn(t think so8 instead of 5I wouldn(t think so,8 because 1aisy wouldn(t say 5I shouldn(t 8 *here were e3traordinary words that ca'e u" in the dialogue that you thought wouldn(t be used during that "eriod &t one "oint she says, 51id you ever see anything so cool78 *hat(s such a fifties or si3ties e3"ression, but she said it It(s in the book fro' 187%

$eo"le find it difficult to acce"t a character like 1aisy Eiller in that 'ilieu I could tell a western with the sa'e basic "lot< an Dastern girl co'es to the 6est and doesn(t understand the codes of the 6est If you "ut her into a western nobody would have any difficulty believing that character -ut the 'inute you "ut her into a Duro"ean 'ilieu, which is sort of so"histicated and highbrow and artistic, "eo"le find it hard to believe that anybody could be that crude -ut that(s the "oint of the story, and if you read it again you(ll find she(s described as crude, vulgar and annoying !he was su""osed to be that way, yet you were su""osed to like her anyway If you don(t, I(ve failed in so'e way -ut I do think that in ten years you(ll like it better, when you forget about who .ybill !he"herd is, when you forget about the fact that she(s 'y girlfriend, when you forget about the fact that she was a cover girl It(s a'a2ing, when you see 'ovies again, how they change I(ve seen "ictures that I adored ten years ago and now think are cra", and "ictures that I hated ten years ago and now think are 'aster"ieces &ctually, what changes is you -ut it is true that "ictures have a way of changing their sha"e and color *hat(s why it(s so difficult to be a critic It(s al'ost i'"ossible to guess what(s going to last It sounds like I(' being very defensive, but really I(' talking here today about 'y fil's as though so'ebody else had 'ade the' 6e(re sitting here looking at ,aisy .iller in ter's of what the director intended to convey and what he achieved 6hen five or si3 years have "assed I 'ight go back and look at a fil' I 'ade, and it either works for 'e or it doesn(t, )ust like I 'ight run a "icture by Ei2oguchi or John #ord or 4ubitsch or -illy #riedkin With Dais& $i''er! which I think is one of the most beautiful films I!e e!er seen, were you influenced by anyone when it came to your camera setu$s and the color and the com$osition? Eainly 'y father, who was a "ainter 0e worked at ho'e because he couldn(t afford a studio, so fro' the 'o'ent I was born I was surrounded by co'"osition and color and i'ages It 'ust have had a "rofound effect on 'e 0e was influenced by the "osti'"ressionists, but because of his !erbian heritage his work had so'e kind of -y2antine overlay, which 'eant the colors were brighter ,aisy .iller is one of the few "ictures of 'ine I can look at and not feel like I actually had anything to do with it, which is nice 4ooking at your own work is like looking in the 'irror I was in the $la2a 0otel so'e years ago with 9yan +(Neal 6e were both staggering out in the 'orning for so'e sort of interview, and there was a 'irror ne3t to the elevators to let you know how you look 9yan was already standing there looking in the 'irror I ca'e running u" and said, 5+h, shit,8 and he said, 56hat(s the 'atter78 I said, 5I always think it(s going to be better 8 0e said, 5*hat(s funny I(' always "leased at how 'uch better it is 8 *hat(s an essential difference between actors and directors ou had the great fortune of knowing -rit. %ang and John -ord" Do you think those relationshi$s hel$ed you with your own filmmaking? *here(s a fine line between being influenced by these guys and stealing outright fro' the' &ll directors steal fro' each other I was talking to 0oward 0awks about the shot in Red River when the cloud co'es in and covers the funeral I said, 5*hat(s a hell of a shot 8 0e said, 56ell, you know, so'eti'es you get lucky and get one of those great #ord shots 8 I said, 51o you 'ean you thought of it as a #ord shot then78 0e said, 5+h, sure 6e all said, A4et(s get that #ord shot ( 8 I asked hi' if #ord had influenced his westerns and he said, 56ell, Jesus .hrist, $eterBI don(t see how you can 'ake a western and not be influenced by John #ordC8 I was fortunate because I got out to 4os &ngeles in 19G1 Eany of the great directors of the early "eriod were still alive then, and so'e of the' were even still working I

tracked the' down and asked the' as 'any @uestions as I "ossibly could John #ord once yelled at 'e and said, 5Jesus, can(t you end a sentence with a "eriod7 0ave you ever uttered a declarative sentence78 &l'ost all of the' en)oyed talking about their work, even so'eone as recalcitrant as #ord 0e could really talk once you got hi' going It 'ust have been gratifying that such a young guy was asking the' so 'any @uestions *hey were all aware that even though I was writing for Esquire I was actually a theater director and an actor *his was the trick to it all, that they knew I wasn(t a real )ournalist but that I was in the business It was like "utting 'yself through a uni@ue fil' school that had as its faculty all the great directors &l'ost all of the' began in the silent era I think one of the biggest "roble's facing 'ovies today is that we(ve lost touch with silent cine'a *hey are the foundation of everything that ca'e afterwards +ne of the 'ain things I learned fro' the older directors is not to let the dialogue dictate how you 'ake the "icture 0itchcock said 'ost "ictures are si'"ly "ictures of "eo"le talking, and that(s beco'e 'ore and 'ore the case I like what &llan 1wan said, that when we switched fro' silent "ictures to sound, the whole artistry was gone 0e said, 5Dvery ti'e I finished a talking "icture I(d run it silent If I could "retty 'uch follow the "lot, I figured I(d done a good )ob 8 .ha"lin has a great line about this< 5Just when we were getting it right, it was over 8 It(s true that around the ti'e silent cine'a ended, they were beco'ing flawless at telling stories visually #or 'e, the 'aterial, the story being told, dictates the style I feel that one of the dangers in "icture 'aking is that style has beco'e 'ore i'"ortant than content +n the other hand, if the content is very good and the style is no good, it(s still no good If there(s no substance, a fil' will always be shallow -ut substance with no craft is e@ually "roble'atic Was it you who $ioneered the idea of going back and inter!iewing the old directors? *he #rench did it first .habrol, *ruffaut, 9oh'er, 9ivette and ?odard were all interviewing the old,ti'e &'erican directors for ahiers du in%ma I read the 'aga2ine in the late fifties and early si3ties, and it see'ed "erfectly natural to go and interview those "eo"le I was interested in Did you e!er think about going to /uro$e and doing for -rench and /nglish directors what you were doing for 'merican filmmakers? Ey focus was on &'erican 'ovies and directors because I was going to 'ake &'erican fil's I went to see -erg'an and &ntonioni, but that wasn(t 'y "redilection I think so'ething that has hurt &'erican cine'a of late is that younger fil''akers have gone after &ntonioni and #ellini !uch "retensionC 6here(s 9aoul 6alsh when we need hi'7 Had you really seen all the films you discussed with the directors you inter!iewed? I think I saw all but one of 0awks( fil's, and I think I saw all of 0itchcock(s fil's, but with so'eone like #ord a lot of his fil's are lost I certainly didn(t see all of &llan 1wan(s fil's, because he 'ade so 'any -ut re'e'ber that fil' culture in New York in the fifties and si3ties was a vibrant one, and there were a lot of o""ortunities to see rare fil's back then $eo"le were starting to take fil' very seriously I was 'arginally involved with a grou" of fil''akers and avant,garde artists that beca'e known as the New &'erican .ine'a grou", "eo"le like 4ionel 9ogosin and Jonas Eekas &dolfas Eekas asked 'e to be in his fil' 2allelu3ah the 2ills, but I turned hi' down because of the nudity I didn(t want 'y ass all over the screen I was interested in seeing avant,garde fil's, but knew that wasn(t the kind of work I wanted to 'ake 'yself -y the ti'e I was about twenty I had sketched an idea for a fil' I

wanted to 'ake called The Land of O((ortunity, about a young cou"le in New York who get everything for free *hey either steal it or so'ehow "ro'ote it for free I )ust had the idea, and never even wrote the scri"t Years later I ended u" using so'e of those ideas in !hat*s )(+ ,ocI would go to &'os =ogel(s fil' club .ine'a 1G all the ti'e and re'e'ber vividly seeing so'e 'e'orable 'ovies there, like 'old ,iggers of 4566 and 0awks( Twentieth entury, for the first ti'e I worked for 1an *albot for a cou"le of years at the New Yorker *heater on the J""er 6est !ide, which could hold so'ething like a thousand "eo"le 1an was the first "erson to show classic &'erican fil's rather than foreign fil's, which the *halia and 'ost of the art houses were doing 0e was following the ahiers lead and started an &'erican revival house which was a very influential theater for a nu'ber of years I advised hi' so'ewhat on which "ictures to book, and curated a nu'ber of shows like *he #orgotten #il's, where we ran fourteen double bills in two weeksBtwenty,eight "ictures in fourteen days which hadn(t been seen on the big screen for thirty years I had hel" fro' &ndrew !arris and Dugene &rcher, and wrote all the "rogra' notes In the "rogra' note I did when 1an revived +rson(s Othello, which had hardly been seen in New York at all, I called the fil' 5the best !hakes"eare fil' ever 'ade 8 *his was hardly the conventional wisdo' at the ti'e, and I got a call fro' 9ichard ?riffith, head of the Euseu' of Eodern &rt fil' library, who asked 'e if I wanted to curate the first,ever &'erican retros"ective of +rson(s work at the 'useu' and write the acco'"anying 'onogra"h I said, 56hy 'e7 6hy don(t you do it78 0e said, 5I don(t really like +rson 6elles very 'uch, but we have 'any friends and colleagues who do and feel the 'useu' should do this 6e think you would be the right "erson to organi2e the retros"ective 8 *hat beca'e The inema of Orson !elles, 'y first book Why didnt you inter!iew him at that time? 0e was in Duro"e shooting The Trial I sent two co"ies off to so'e address in Duro"e and didn(t hear a thing for seven years, not until 19G8, after I(d directed Targets &fter the fil' had o"ened I get a "hone call 50ello, this is +rson 6elles I can(t tell you how long I(ve wanted to 'eet with you 8 I said, 50old on, that(s 'y line 6hy did you want to 'eet 'e78 0e said, 5-ecause you have written the truest words ever "ublished about 'e 8 0e "aused for a few seconds and added, 5In Dnglish 8 *hen he said, 5Eeet 'e at the -everly 0ills 0otel to'orrow 8 our written work seems almost anti0academic" I(' not consciously anti,acade'ic, it(s )ust not in 'y nature +nly occasionally do I e3"lain what a fil' 5'eans 8 I don(t like to get "hiloso"hical about any fil's, even 'y own I(' 'uch 'ore of an instinctual artist than "eo"le give 'e credit for, because they think I(' "aying ho'age to various things with 'y fil's +ne critic said that $a(er .oon is a ho'age to thirties fil''aking 6hat nonsenseC *he fil' is set in the thirties, but I never saw a single fil' like that 'ade in the thirties I was in 4ondon a while ago and a ta3i driver said, 5I love $a(er .oon It(s such a celebration of fa'ily 8 6ell, that(s not what I intended at all, but I(' not going to tell hi' that and disa""oint hi' 0is "oint of view is entirely valid *here was a 9enoir series a few years ago here in town I went over to his house afterwards and said, 5Jean, I saw Boudu "aved from ,rowning 6hat a wonderful fil' that isC8 0e was such a hu'ble and generous 'an, and he said, 5+h, thank you very 'uch You(re very kind 8 I said, 51o you like the fil'78 0e said, 56ell, you know it was 'ade in the early days of sound, and so'e of the sound is not so good *he 'usic recording is not so good 6e had no 'oney and had to buy fil' stock as we went along, so so'e of the "icture

doesn(t 'atch fro' shot to shot !o'eti'es the cutting is a little too fast, and so'eti'es the cutting is a little too slow 8 0e went on and on 5-ut I think that "erha"s it(s 'y best fil' 8 &s 9enoir once said in an interview with Jac@ues 9ivette, 56hen we have achieved total realis', we will have achieved total decadence 8 Ey inter"retation of that is that today, with s"ecial effects, you can do anything on fil' -ut who cares7 *he 'agic is gone *he audience knows it(s all )ust one big e3"ensive bo3 of tricks It used to be e3citing when 1ouglas #airbanks )u'"ed u" onto a table *he whole idea of sus"ension of disbelief has eva"orated -uster /eaton and 0arold 4loyd did all their own stunts, which is what 'akes the' so brilliant !o'eone once co'"lained to .ha"lin that his ca'era angles weren(t interesting 0e said, 5*hey don(t have to be I(' interesting 8 If you watch &staire and 9ogers dancing, there(s hardly a cut 4ong takes $art of the greatness of 'ovies is showing so'ething ha""en in real ti'e *oday s"ecial effects are getting so good that who knows what(s real7 &nd all the cutting and hand,held ca'era that goes on )ust 'akes you aware of the "rocess 6hat does it add7 .ertainly not realis' What do you make of Eas& Ri(er? It seems to be the antithesis of your own work, which looks quite conser!ati!e in com$arison" I don(t think 5conservative8 is the right word I(' 'ore of a classicist -ut don(t forget that The Last $icture "how had nudity and showed teenage se3 in a way that had never been shown before It was @uite a radical fil' for its ti'e even though the story was told in a classical style Easy Rider really began with The !ild Angels $eter #onda basically "lays the sa'e character in both fil's -rando in The !ild One hadn(t done well, and The !ild Angels was the first really successful biker "icture It started a whole genre and without it there would be no Easy Rider $eter and 1ennis 0o""er ca'e to 9oger .or'an and asked if he wanted to 'ake Easy Rider, but 9oger turned it down because they wanted half a 'illion dollars +f course the two of the' ended u" winning the "ri2e at .annes and 'aking a fortune Did you come u$ with the original idea for Nic)e'o(eo%? It was a "et "ro)ect of 'ine because I found the whole silent era so fascinating #il' is the only art for' that was born within our lifeti'e It(s a co'"licated, wonderful and horrible 'ediu', and I wanted to tell a story about how and when it all started It(s a 'o'ent full of great innocence, so'ething I think is reflected in the fil' &ll the stories in 7ic8elodeon are largely true because they were told to 'e by the directors who had been 'aking fil's back then, "eo"le like 4eo Ec.arey, &llan 1wan and 9aoul 6alsh #or e3a'"le, 9yan +(Neal beco'ing a director co'es directly out of what ha""ened to &llan 1wan & director went 'issing, so 1wan sent a telegra' to his boss e3"laining what had ha""ened, and received a re"ly telling hi' that he was the new director *o be honest, I don(t 'uch like the fil' It wasn(t the "icture we wanted to 'ake *oo 'any co'"ro'ises, like having to 'ake it in color, and the casting I wanted a younger cast, but the studio wanted big star na'es What are your thoughts on music in films? I think that essentially I(' cheating if the 'usic in a fil' accentuates or e'bellishes the action It see's to 'e that the visuals should do absolutely everything *oo 'any 'ovies today are told through the 'usic 6hat I do like is when the 'usic "lays against the visuals, like if you have fast,"aced i'ages and so'ething going on 'usically which acts as a counter"oint, or so'ebody "laying a funny song in a sad scene It sounds as if the singing in At Lo%* Last Lo+e was recorded li!e"

*hat was a folly of 'ine It was an a'bitious but flawed fil' for which I can only bla'e 'yself Ey favorite 'usicals are the 4ubitsch fil's of the late twenties and early thirties I fell in love with those "ictures, and along with a book that .ybill gave 'e, a collection of .ole $orter lyrics, they(re the ret see how you can 'ake a western and not be influenced by John #ordCason I 'ade At Long Last Love +ne of the things that 'ade The Love $arade and The "miling Lieutenant so e3citing was that you knew they were singing live *he orchestra was right off,ca'era *hey couldn(t 'i3 sound in those days, so they had to record everything at the sa'e ti'e I re'e'ber 0itchcock telling 'e he shot an insert of a radio and there was an orchestra "laying off,ca'era because they didn(t have the ability to record it later and 'i3 it in 0e 'ight have been e3aggerating, but for 'e it 'ade sense not to "ostsynch, because the i''ediacy of the whole thing would be lost I couldn(t stand the thought of recording the singing first and "laying it to the actors as they(re being fil'ed I wanted to 'ake a 'usical where they were acting the songs and singing the' live Dverybody thought this was cra2y, but I was riding high at the ti'e It beca'e a huge "roble', because we couldn(t afford an orchestra on the set, so #o3 s"ent @uite a lot of 'oney to develo" a tiny s"eaker that fit into the actor(s ear *hey each had an antenna co'bed into their hair that could "ick u" an electric signal sent fro' an electric "iano, so on the set the actors were hearing the 'usic &ctually, none of the' were really singers, although that was the fun of it 9e'e'ber the scene with -urt 9eynolds and .ybill in the swi''ing "ool when she laughs so hard she can(t sing7 *hat(s )ust what I wanted *he "oint is that these "eo"le are su"erficial *hey can(t s"eak, which is why they(re always singing It(s not an &staireN9ogers ho'age, it(s about "eo"le who aren(t singers and dancers but would like to be, )ust like 'e *hey can only e3"ress the'selves through songs written by so'eone else I often sang to girls because I didn(t know how to "ut it into words of 'y own It sounds corny to say 5I love you,8 so why not sing instead OsingingP 5I(ve got a crush on you, sweetie,"ie87 !o it was a rather "ersonal fil' for 'e, and the .ole $orter song that 'ade 'e want to 'ake the 'ovie is the first scene I wrote but is one of the last scenes in the fil' OsingingP< I loved hi' but he didn(t love 'e I wanted hi' but he didn(t want 'e *hen the ?ods had a s"ree and indulged in another whi' Now he loves 'e but I don(t love hi' I read that lyric before I knew the tune and said, 5*hat(s the 'ovie I want to 'ake 8 What was the conce$t behind the Directors Com$any? I got a call fro' #rancis .o""ola saying that .harlie -luhdorn of ?ulf Q 6estern had the idea that we threeB.o""ola, #riedkin and IBget together and 'ake a bunch of "ictures and then go "ublic and 'ake a lot of 'oney #rancis, -ill and I flew to New York and had a 'eeting with -luhdorn I re'e'ber that #rank Yablans, the head of $ara'ount, walked in and hated the whole idea 56hy don(t you )ust give the' the studio78 he said #or any "icture that cost u" to three 'illion dollars we could 'ake anything we wanted 6e didn(t even have to ask the studio or tell the' what it was #or a 'illion and a half or under we could "roduce a fil' directed by so'eone else &gain, we didn(t have to tell the' what it was *o "ut things in "ers"ective, $a(er .oon cost :2 8 'illion and The Last $icture "how cost :1 F 'illion, so I didn(t think we needed 'uch 'ore *he other thing was that our contract said we didn(t have to cut the fil's for television, which was i'"ortant to us I was looking forward to 'aking all kinds of fil's, including one with /ing =idor called The E9tra about Ja'es Eurray, the actor in his fil' The rowd, and a fil'

with +rson based on a Jose"h .onrad novel *he whole thing really was a great idea on "a"er, and we should have 'ade a lot of "ictures, but #rancis and -illy ended u" wanting 'ore 'oney u" front *he back end was great but the 'oney u" front wasn(t I think there was a li'it of :F;;,;;; "er fil' for the director, and because of that the whole thing fell a"art fairly @uickly Dveryone in the co'"any ended u" doing well on $a(er .oon, which was the only "icture that 'ade 'oney, because I threw the fil' into the 'i3 to )u'",start the co'"any I had a deal to 'ake that fil' long before we for'ed the 1irectors .o'"any but thought it would be a good idea to sweeten the "ot for everyone *hat was a big error on 'y "art, because I ended u" losing a lot of 'oney Do you shoot lots of cutaways for $rotection? $robably the central thing I heard fro' al'ost all the old directors I s"oke toB#ord, 0awks, 0itchcock, 4ang, 1wan, Ec.areyBwas that they basically cut in the ca'era ?enerally the old 'asters didn(t shoot coverage I saw #ord "ut his hand over the ca'era lens one ti'e as if to say 5*hat(s enough 8 *hese guys knew where they were going to cut when they were shooting the scene -eing young in the business, I assu'ed that was the way everybody did it, but found out later that so'e directors, like .a"ra and !tevens, would shoot a lot of coverage I learned fro' #ord, who said, 5Just shoot what you need, kid, and don(t give (e' anything they don(t need and that you don(t need 8 #ord was shooting 2ow 'reen !as .y #alley and there(s a great shot during the 'arriage scene Eaureen +(!ullivan(s character is 'arrying so'eone she(s not in love with, and they ride off in a carriage It(s a long shot, and the ca'era "ans the' off and holds on the 'inister, 6alter $idgeon, standing under a tree *his is the 'an she(s really in love with It(s a long shot, and the ca'era'an said to #ord, 5Jack, do you think we should grab a close,u" of 6alter under the tree78 #ord said, 5+h no, JesusBI 'ean, they(ll )ust use itC8 0e 'eant that the editor, who he had no control over, would use the shot )ust because it was there $art of 'y training was to think only in ter's of what is needed *he ti'e to 'ake u" your 'ind about what the scene is about, and how and where it should be "layed, is on the set during fil'ing and not in the cutting roo', otherwise you(re wasting ti'e shooting things you(re not going to need You can cut al'ost anything together in thirty different ways if you have enough footage, but that doesn(t 'ean it(s the right way to "lay the scene *he one thing that the old,ti'ers s"oke about 'ost often was their "ride in being able to 'ake fil's @uickly and econo'ically I shoot very tight, and because of that editing goes very @uickly 6e showed !hat*s )(+ ,oc- to the studio three weeks after we wra""ed It was the sa'e thing with $a(er .oon and ,aisy .iller 5$rotection8 is a dirty word I think running around covering things fro' every angle can ruin the 'orale on a set, "articularly when you have a big, co'"licated setu" and everybody has to work like a sonofabitch to get it right Eaybe it(s a whole scene without a cut, like the shots we did in ,aisy .iller which were fifteen "ages without a cut, five 'inutes You work at it for days and then you get it and everybody cheers, and then you say, 5Now, we need a little "rotection here in case it doesn(t work 8 6ell, they(ll kill you With scenes where you ha!e to do se!eral takes to get it right, do the $erformances e!er change? In 'ovies so'ething ha""ens and it only ha""ens once *hat(s the difference between 'ovie acting and stage acting *here are very few 'o'ents in 'y "ictures that I can say are "erfect, but if there are any, it(s little things, like a look between two "eo"le or a line It(s nothing I could ever have "lanned, and usually ha""ens in a close,u"

&l'ost everything I(' ha""iest with in the "ictures I(ve done were first takes *here(s always a bit of luck in any shot You(re ho"ing that so'ething will go wrong that will 'ake it great, a lucky accident of sorts John #ord said that he thinks the best things in "ictures ha""en by accident +rson 6elles said to 'e, 5& director is essentially a 'an who "resides over accidents 8 6hat you(re really trying to do when you direct a "icture is create an at'os"here in which accidents will ha""en *hings will go a little bit wrong and you(ll say, 5*hat(s great *hat(s the one 8 6ho knows why it(s the one7 !o'ething was going through the actor(s 'ind, or a cloud 'oved in at a certain "oint 0enry #onda told 'e this story about #ord directing .ister Roberts 0e said, 56e were shooting a scene with 6illia' $owell 0e was kind of shaky and nervous It was a long scene, about four or five "ages, and #ord set u" the ca'era, and we started to rollBit was outside on a shi"Band Jesus, -ill was )ust terrible 0is hands were shaking and he could barely re'e'ber his lines I was thinking, A6hen is he going to cut7( -ut I went on "laying the scene and we went on and on, and the scene was over and #ord said, A.utC $rintC 1id you see that cloud 'ove in there7 Jesus, wasn(t that a hell of a thing7 6hat a hell of a shot that wasC(8 ou said that the time to make u$ your mind about what the scene is about is when youre shooting it" But arent some of those decisions also to be made in the scri$t? No I don(t like scri"ts to overly define the 'echanics of the fil' You 'ight indicate certain things that )u'" out at you, like a close,u" or an establishing shot, but I don(t 'ake decisions as to where the ca'era is going to be until the last 'o'ent It(s i'"ortant to kee" yourself fresh and o"en to ideas, like the actor suggesting so'ething -ut basically I know what the scene is about and how 'any angles I need to cover it If you have a scene that "lays well in a single shot, then )ust leave it alone Eaybe shoot four or five takes, but forget about coverage #ord told 'e about a scene with two actors he held for a long ti'e, and he said, 56ell, you can see their faces and hear what they(re saying No reason to cut 8 I asked +rson how he would define the difference between shooting a scene in one shot or cutting it u" into 'any "ieces 0e said, 5*hat was what we used to say se"arated the 'en fro' the boys 8 Jose"h 0 4ewis was shooting a bank robbery and got it only with a single ca'era fro' inside the car I asked hi' about this entire ten,'inute shot 1id he get any coverage7 0e said, 5No, a 'an 'ust have courage 8 Can you say anything about casting? I once asked 0itchcock about the difference between casting an unknown actor and a star in a "icture 0e said, 5You(re driving along the street and there(s an accident u" ahead You slow u" as you go by the accident and see so'ebody You don(t know who it is and you say, A+h, tsk, tsk *oo bad,( and you drive on Now,8 he said, 5the sa'e scene You(re driving along, you look to see who it is and, 'y god, it(s your brother *hat(s the difference between casting an unknown and .ary ?rant 8 You know and care about .ary ?rant You don(t have to set it u" 0e )ust walks on the screen *hat instant fa'iliarity is what you are "aying hi' for Ha!e you e!er run into any $roblems with actors? I think you have to be so'e kind of actor to be a good director, because essentially you have to hear the words in your 'ind It(s like how a conductor hears a score 0e doesn(t necessarily need to have the 'usicians there to know how it ought to sound In fact, what he(s trying to do is get all the 'usicians to sound like what he hears 6hen I(' working on a scri"t I hear it a certain way, and then it(s a @uestion of getting the actors to sound the sa'e way !o'eti'es they do so'ething interesting that(s different and I say, 50ey, I like that *hat(s nice /ee" that 8 -ut generally s"eaking you(re trying to get the' to do it 'ore or less the way you(re hearing it +f

course there are a 'illion ways to do that In fact, there are as 'any ways to do that as there are actors, because every actor is different You beat *atu' +(Neal on the head or scare her, you indulge -urt 9eynolds because he(s nervous, but essentially I show the' what I want by either saying the line the way I think they ought to say it or getting u" and acting it out I don(t do it out of any kind of "articularly egotistical desire to be a ha', but because I don(t know how else to describe it !o'e actors are threatened by this, and if they don(t like it then I don(t do it Jsually it isn(t a "roble' !o'e directors did all the ti'e 4ubitsch, for e3a'"le, acted out every role< the 'aids, the butlers, every role I asked Jack -enny onceBhe was the only actor I ever 'et who(d worked with 4ubitschB51id he act out all the "arts78 5Yeah, all the "arts It was a little broad but you got the idea 8 *hat(s the thing< you got the idea I got encourage'ent with this 'ethod of directing fro' Ja'es .agney I asked hi' at a dinner "arty, 56hat(s a good director to you78 0e said, 5/id, I(ve only worked with five 8 I said, 50ow 'any directors have you worked with in your life78 5Dighty,five -ut only five are really directors 8 !o I said, 56hat does a real director do78 0e said, 5& director to 'e is a 'an who, if I don(t know what the hell to do, can get u" and show 'e 8 Is it easier to do si1 less e1$ensi!e $ictures than one e1$ensi!e one? Eaking an e3"ensive fil' is the worst thing in the world 6hen I was sort of a half, assed critic I wrote once about .y :air Lady and said that ?eorge .ukor had 'ade a very good "icture considering the li'itations of :1% 'illion I found when I had :G or :9 'illion, which I had on two "ictures, that I was right It(s a hell of a li'itation *hings gets bigger and bigger and finally you(ve got all these "eo"le who don(t do anything, and you(re carrying the' around with you It(s like a godda'ned ar'y You can(t )ust say, 54et(s not shoot this today 4et(s go over there 8 It(s like saying, 56e(re not going to invade at Nor'andy 6e(re going to invade the !ea of Ja"an 8 !o'ehow the freedo' goes, and at the sa'e ti'e so does the fun I(ve always thought that 'aking a fil' is fun only when you feel that what you(re doing is sort of a cri'e 6hat you(re saying is, 5Nobody knows what we(re really doing 8 Jean 9enoir once said that when you(re 'aking a "icture you should have cons"irators around you, as o""osed to associates *hat(s why I love shooting at night It(s the best ti'e to shoot because everybody else is aslee" and you(re really doing this terrible thingByou(re 'aking this 'ovieBand nobody knows what you(re doing You(ve got to 'aintain that larcenous @uality to your work as a director, and that(s what(s the 'atter with 'aking big "ictures What has it been like working with %2s.l3 4o!2cs as your cinematogra$her? 4Hs2lI had shot a bunch of nudie "ictures before he did Targets and he(d never done what he thought was a good "icture In fact, his na'e on those had been 4eslie /ovacs 0is real na'e was 4Hs2lI and he changed his na'e to fit 'ore with an &'erican i'age I said, 56hy in hell are you calling yourself 4eslie7 4Hs2lI /ovHcs is a beautiful na'e It(s classical 8 0e said, 5+kay, on this "icture I(' going to "ut 4Hs2lI It(s the first "icture I(' "roud of 8 +tto $re'inger once said to 'e that there were two kinds of good ca'era'en 5*here(s the good ca'era'an who(ll give you what you want but doesn(t know why you want it, and there(s the other kind who can give you what you want and knows why you want it +f course, it(s 'uch 'ore fun to work with the second ty"e 8 4Hs2lI(s the second ty"e I re'e'ber one shot we had on $a(er .oon, in the cafL scene when *atu' says, 5I want 'y :2;; 8 *he last setu" in that se@uence is a face, off between the two of the' and the waitress co'es u" and says, 50i there, "recious 8 0e says, 50er na'e ain(t $recious 8 6e ended u" shooting with a slightly low angle,

which is e3actly what I had in 'ind but didn(t know how to e3"lain it to 4Hs2lI I )ust said, 54ook, here(s what I want It(s the last shot in the se@uence and I want to get a kind of feeling like a Ee3ican standoff 8 0e said, 56hat(s that78 I said, 5?ive the i'"ression of these two "eo"le o""osing each other but we don(t know which way it(s going to go 8 0e said, 56ell, 'aybe if we shoot low,8 and I said, 5*hat(s good 8 6hen we started work on $a(er .oon it was going to be in color I sent $olly to look for locations and take "hotos !he drove all over the !outh, in *ennessee and ?eorgia, before we decided on /ansas !he brought the "ictures back and 'aybe half were in color and half were black and white I looked at the' and said, 5Jesus .hrist, we ought to do this in black and white It looks wonderful 8 *here were all these things that were anachronis's *he fil' was set in the thirties and here were all these black, and,white "ictures with 'odern cars, with 'otorcycles, with 'odern signs, but in black and white it still looked like it was the thirties I said, 5I'agine if you take all the anachronis's out and we do it in black and white 8 In black and white you )ust get the feeling of the "eriod right away, and suddenly I reali2ed that all the great "hotogra"hs I(ve ever seen of the 1e"ressionB6alker Dvans is a "erfect e3a'"leB are in shar" black and white I also thought the fil' would be too cute in color, with these two attractive, blue,eyed blond "eo"le It would have looked like a 1isney "icture I said to 4Hs2lI, 5*here(s a @uality I wanted in $icture "how which I never really achieved I want $a(er .oon to be very shar",focus and as contrasty as "ossible, so we(ll use a red filter 8 +rson 6elles told 'e about that 0e said, 5Jse a red filter *hat(s what #ord always did *hat(s what I did in himes at .idnight,8 which was a 'arvelous black,and,white "icture #ilters like that e'"hasi2e the contrast between light and dark 4Hs2lI e3"eri'ented for three or four days and we shot it all with a red filter *he use of black and white was kind of revived for a while, because Eel -rooks did &oung :ran8enstein and #osse did Lenny It(s one of the great tragedies that black and white is no longer "art of the fil''aker(s "alette Is your relationshi$ with 5erna -ields, who has edited se!eral of your films, im$ortant to you? =erna is originally a sound editor I re'e'ber showing her Targets, 'uch of which was shot silent !he said, 5*his is very well edited 6ho cut it78 I told her, 5I did .an you do the sound78 !he did a brilliant )ob =erna(s a real stickler and very intuitive, which is how editors should be I asked her to cut The Last $icture "how but she was busy so I ended u" cutting the whole thing 'yself 1onn .a'bern is credited on the "icture, but all he did was order the o"ticals fro' the lab and 'ake sure they looked okay 6e had "roble's with the union, which 'eant I couldn(t take an editing credit &t the ti'e 1onn was editing ,rive+ 2e "aid ne3t door, so we gave hi' the credit 6hen it ca'e to !hat*s )(+ ,oc- I asked =erna if she would cut it !he said, 5You know I(ve never cut a big feature before &re you sure you want 'e to do this78 I said, 5Yes You(re not going to touch it until I(ve 'arked it u" anyway 8 *hat(s how I work with =erna I(' so used to editing 'y own stuff that I can(t stand to look at so'eone else(s cuts until I(ve 'ade 'y own, which can then be refined 6hat I do is sit with the editor and look at the dailies and "ick the takes I want &n editor is not allowed any leeway the first ti'e through, because if they don(t cut it 'y way the first ti'e and it(s not right, I go 'ad I think it(s 'y fault and that I(ve screwed u", so it(s better if I )ust work on it 'yself until I get fa'iliar with the 'aterial =erna is always saying that she(s not actually doing anything, but of course she(s 'ade so'e very valuable contributions, and at least once on every "icture we(ve done together =erna

has worked out how to fi3 so'ething that no one else could solve !he earns her entire salary at 'o'ents like that What do you think is the most im$ortant tool that a director needs? ?ood actors 'nd the most im$ortant skill? *he ability to s"eak to actors and get "erfor'ances fro' the' *he second 'ost i'"ortant thing is a sense of where the hell to "ut the ca'era *he third 'ost i'"ortant thing is to know when to cut !o'e directors know how to talk to actors and don(t know where the hell to "ut the ca'era *hat(s not so bad, because so'ebody will tell the' where to "ut the ca'era, and eventually it(ll end u" near where it ought to be !o'e directors know how to cut and know how to deal with the ca'era but have no idea how to talk to the actors, so you have very interesting ca'erawork and good cutting and you have an interesting "icture fro' a for'al "oint of view, but the heart is 'issing !o'e "eo"le know all three, and they 'ake "retty good "ictures Where do you $ut the camera? I think there is one ideal "lace where the ca'era should be at any one ti'e, and the )ob of the director is to find it I usually 'a" it out before I get on the set, )ust notes for 'yself, so I know how 'any setu"s I(' going to need for each given scene *hat said, the best "iece of advice I can offer is fro' +rson 6elles, who once said to 'e, 5If you really don(t know where to "ut the ca'era, then you really don(t know what to do in the scene 8 0itchcock always insisted that every scene should have a "oint of view 0e didn(t necessarily 'ean that the director should have a "articular attitude toward it 0itchcock had a great ability to )u'" fro' the sub)ective "oint of view of a character to an ob)ective "oint of view &t ti'es the audience is in the head of the character and at other ti'es not It(s all done with ca'era angles and use of lenses and fra'ing Euch of Rear !indow is told fro' Ji''y !tewart(s "oint of view as he looks out over at the buildings o""osite -ut at other ti'es, at key 'o'ents, 0itchcock shifts to an ob)ective "oint of view where he "ur"osely shows you that !tewart is aslee" and clearly doesn(t see certain things It hel"s build the tension because the audience says, 5&haC 0e didn(t see thatC8 & shift like that is often done very subtly, without the audience even noticing, but the @uestion is always the sa'e< fro' whose "oint of view is the audience seeing the scene7 #or e3a'"le, if you have a close,u" of 'e and a wide shot of you, it(s obviously 'y "oint of view If I have you sitting there, and we start with a close,u" of you and then cut to a shot of 'e fro' where you(re sitting, it(s obviously your "oint of view It(s really i'"ortant to re'e'ber when you(re writing a scri"t or directing, because it affects everything in ter's of the fra'ing, the si2e of the i'age, the way you 'ove the actors within the shot and how they interact with each other 0itchcock did it wonderfully It(s absolutely a forgotten art Eost fil's don(t have a "oint of view, they )ust have shot after shot &lways ask yourself< "recisely which "art of the story a' I telling with this shot7 Do you rehearse your actors? &lwaysBfor at least two weeks, if not 'ore #or so'e scenes, the 'ore the better, u" to a "oint, because it(s "ossible to overrehearse You have to rehearse to the "oint where nobody knows e3actly what they(re going to do but they think they know a""ro3i'ately what they(re going to do *hen it(s ti'e to shoot When you get to a location do you rehearse the actors before you light it and set your camera $osition? 6hile I(' rehearsing, I usually have an idea or two about shots and get a sense of

e3actly where the ca'era ought to be for each 'o'ent in the scene 6hen I read a well,written scene, it )u'"s out at 'e where the cuts need to be< 5No cut > no cut > no cut > cut here > close,u" here 8 If I don(t see a cut, I get it in a single shot -efore I co'e on the set I sketch out e3actly how 'any setu"s I need You(re usually shooting co'"letely out of continuity You(re shooting the beginning last and the last first, but that(s why the rehearsal has been valuable, because the actors know the scene, so even if you start in the 'iddle they know 'ore or less where they are, because they(ve rehearsed it all the way through Is there a way of building a &oke so there might be one $ayoff followed by a bigger one? +h yes, that(s essential *hat(s what(s called the to""er You(ve usually got to have two )okes and then a third that(s funnier than the "revious two It(s bu'", bum(, -JE$C You(ll find that if you don(t give an audience the to""er they slightly resent you *he co'edy in !hat*s )(+ ,oc- works on this "rinci"le of threes You set u" so'ething with a laugh, you get another laugh with it, then you to" it *here(s a scene where there are cars all 'aking a J,turn and they each s'ash into this =olkswagen bus which is "arked along the curb Dach ti'e it gets a bigger laugh *he to""er is when the guy who obviously owns the bus runs out fro' his house, o"ens the door of the thing and the whole bus falls over into the street *hat(s the big laugh *he trouble with so 'any co'edies today is that nobody understands the "rinci"le of to""ing a )oke Do you think theres a market for the kind of sla$stick 4eystone 4o$ kind of thing that you ha!e in Whats U ! Doc" It(s not /eystone It(s not Eack !ennett 4ook at Eack !ennett 0e(s not very funny *he chase in !hat*s )(+ ,oc- is really -uster /eaton *here have really been only two great co'edy directors< -uster /eaton and Drnst 4ubitsch /eaton for chases, 4ubitsch for everything else If you look at /eaton(s "ictures you(ll see the i'"eccable "lace'ent of ca'era, cutting, ti'ing 0e was dancing, flying, doing "irouettes 6hen it co'es to visual co'edy, there was nobody else *he /eystone /o"s and all of that is very "ri'itive, grotes@ue running around It was funny to "eo"le back then, but I don(t find it funny today When you read a comedy scri$t, how do you know whether its funny? *hat(s hard *he toughest thing in the world is to do co'edy You know, Dd'und ?wenn was gravely ill !o'ebody ca'e to see hi', and they said, 50ow is it, Dd'und78 0e said, 5It(s rough -ut not as rough as "laying co'edy 8 Is genre an im$ortant starting $oint for you as a director? ?enre is a way of cloaking a "ersonal fil' I think a lot of the &'erican fil''akers worked this way 0awks( Rio Bravo is a "erfect e3a'"le *his whole issue is bound u" in the so,called auteur theory, which by the way was never a theory In #rance it was a "olitical state'ent< la (olitique des auteurs It was 'eant to kill off what they called le cin%ma de (a(a, the old,fashioned #rench well,'ade fil' #or the', 0awks was a greater director than #red Rinne'ann, and 0itchcock was greater than 1avid 4ean *he idea, as stated by various #rench New 6ave critics like *ruffaut, ?odard, .habrol and 9oh'er, was that des"ite the i'"ositions of the studio syste', the "ersonality of certain directors would show through no 'atter who wrote it, who shot it or who was in it *heir "oints of view triu'"hed over the 'ulti"licity of restrictions that 'ight have e3isted &ccording to these critics, Rinne'ann and 4ean 'ade fil's without 'uch of their own "ersonality in the' #or the', clearly 0awks, 0itchcock, #ord and others were the governing force behind the fil's they "ut their na'e to as

director, but the fact that these directors rarely took writing credit doesn(t 'ean they didn(t 'ake enor'ous contributions to the screen"lays of their fil's, both before and during "roduction It 'eans looking at a director(s body of work rather than an individual fil' What does this say about the ob!ious in$ut of the writer on a film? In 'any cases, the director worked closely with the writer, even if he got no credit 0itchcock sat in the roo' with his writers for 'onths *hey structured the fil's together, then the writer would go off, write the dialogue and "resent 0itch with "ages I watched 0awks rewrite scenes on the set of El ,orado I saw #ord ad,lib whole scenes on the set 0awks too *he best e3a'"le is "robably Drnst 4ubitsch 0e rarely took credit for screenwriting, but as his fre@uent collaborator and screenwriter !a'son 9a"haelson e3"lained, 4ubitsch was there through the entire scri"ting "rocess What do you think of film schools? & lot of what I know I learned through os'osis I never even graduated high school I didn(t study "ainting and yet I know a lot about it )ust by being around 'y father I grew u" looking at art and was surrounded by co'"osition and color as a child 0e took 'e to galleries and the Euseu' of Eodern &rt to see silent fil's all the ti'e I 'ust have seen four hundred stage "roductions when I was growing u" in New York It(s the sa'e thing with 'ovies I never studied how to 'ake the' as such, I )ust watched a lot of the' and asked a lot of @uestions !o'eti'es I would sneak into .ecile !tarr(s class at .olu'bia Jniversity and watch a fil', but generally I find fil' schools to be disa""ointing *hey s"end far too 'uch ti'e on "roduction and not enough ti'e showing the right fil's to students !tudents need to see classics 6e(re talking about the foundation of the 'ediu' and that includes silent cine'a I taught a class at J.4& in 19G9 about 0oward 0awks *en weeks of his 'ovies I wasn(t interested in the students( o"inions 5I(' here to show you the 'ovie and tell you what he said about it I really don(t care what you think 8 ' lot of directors who s$eak at these seminars are !ery reser!ed" ou!e been the most o$en $erson I!e heard s$eak here at the '-I" 9eally7 6ell, I think if I(' going to talk to "eo"le, I don(t see why I should lie or hide anything &ctually, it(s "robably 'ore instructive for 'e than for anyone I(' not talking about 'y "rivate life, I(' talking about 'aking "ictures, and 'aybe so'ebody can learn fro' so'ething I(ve said, though I don(t really believe that I don(t think I(ve learned anything fro' the things I(ve read I learned fro' doing things, because everybody 'akes their own 'istakes You 'ake a 'istake and three years later you say, 5Jee2, I read about that I should have known better 8 Do you think $eo$le will be laughing at Whats U ! Doc" thirty years from now? I don(t see why not /ids laugh at it and older "eo"le laugh at it, and I get letters fro' "eo"le who have seen it fifty ti'es, so it 'ust be funny if they see it that 'any ti'es I don(t think there is anything dated about it *here are no to"ical )okes or references to s"ecific things, like Ji''y .arter or last night(s Johnny .arson show We showed a Buster 4eaton film a cou$le of weeks ago and e!eryone thought it was !ery funny" *hey screened 7ic8elodeon at the fil' festival in -erlin and asked 'e, 56hat would you like to see while you(re in -erlin78 I said, 5I think you(ve got so'e silent 4ubitsch fil's here, and I want to see the' 8 !o they looked through the archives and found seven silent 4ubitsch 'ovies, fro' about 1918 to about 192F, none of which I(d seen *hey said, 56e have a "roble' 6e can only get the "ro)ection roo' for one day, and we(ll have to run all the "ictures on this day 8 I said, 5!even "ictures in

one day7 I(ll start at noon,8 because I don(t like to get u" too early and the night before I had to go see *ruffaut(s new "icture !o the ne3t day at noon we go out so'ewhere far away and start looking at 4ubitsch .ybill is with 'e, she loves 4ubitsch *he first one is .adame ,ubarry with $ola Negri, one of the best costu'e "ictures I(ve ever seen in 'y life *he second one was a co'edy called ,ie Berg8at;e, again with $ola Negri, which was never released in &'erica because it ca'e out after the warBit was sort of an anti,'ilitarist 'ovieBand it was one of the funniest 'ovies I(ve ever seen It(s funnier than The 'eneral I was )ust sick fro' laughing *he third "icture was ,ie $u((e, also one of the funniest 'ovies I(ve ever seen !o now I(' sick *hree 'ovies It(s like eating a ten,course dinner I said, 5!to" a 'inute 8 *he guy says, 5-ut we have to run all the "ictures today 8 I said, 5.ould you bring us so'ething to eat78 .ybill is also e3hausted *hey bring us sandwiches and I(' sticking tooth"icks into .ybill trying to kee" her awake 5You(re not going to get a chance to see this stuff anywhere else 6ake u" 8 5I don(t care I(ve got to have so'e slee" 8 I can(t say how 'any of the seven fil's I saw because I "assed out It never ceases to a'a2e 'e how 'any treasures there are buried in those fourteen short years between 191% and 1929, when sound ca'e in and ruined everything Eary $ickford once said, 5If you look at the history of 'otion "ictures, silent "ictures and then talkies, and see the difference in ter's of visual @uality between the silent "ictures and the talking "ictures, so'ehow you(d think that they had evolved the other way 8 Isn(t that great7 *hat sort of su's u" what I think about cine'a ,i'-s as Director 19GG #oyage to the $lanet of $rehistoric !omen Sas 1erek *ho'asT 19G8 Targets Salso "roducer and screen"layT 1971 The Last $icture "how Salso screen"layT 1972 !hat*s )(+ ,oc- Salso "roducer and screen"layT 197F $a(er .oon Salso "roducerT 197U ,aisy .iller Salso "roducerT 197% At Long Last Love Salso "roducer and screen"layT 197G 7ic8elodeon Salso screen"layT 1979 "aint <ac8 Salso screen"layT 1981 They All Laughed Salso screen"layT 198% .as8 1988 Illegally &ours Salso "roducerT 199; Te9asville Salso "roducer and screen"layT 1992 7oises Off Salso "roducerT 199F The Thing alled Love 2;;1 The at*s .eow -ogdanovich also directed docu'entaries and television including The 'reat $rofessional= 2oward 2aw8s, 19G7V ,irected by <ohn :ord, 1971V $icture !indows, 199%V :allen Angels, 199%V To "ir+ with Love II, 199GV The $rice of 2eaven, 1997V Rescuers= "tories of ourage= Two !omen, 1997V 7a8ed ity= A Killer hristmas, 1998V A "aintly "witch, 1999V The .ystery of 7atalie !ood, 2;;UV The "o(ranos, 2;;UV 2ustle= The $ete Rose "tory, 2;;UV and Tom $etty and the 2eartbrea8ers= Runnin* ,own a ,ream, 2;;7 Ja'es $owers 'oderated this se'inar *he transcri"t also contains seg'ents fro' se'inars $eter -ogdanovich gave at the &'erican #il' Institute on Eay 27, 197%, January 1%, 198G, and Earch U, 1992, and fro' an interview conducted in su''er 2;;9