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Eph. 2:8
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Exegetical Forum discuss Eph. 2:8 in the The Scriptures forums; Does this make sense? Ephesians 2:8 Here is a pronounceable transliteration: 8. Tee' ga'r cha'riti' este sesoosme'noi dia' pi'steoos, kai' tou'toouk ex humoo'n, Theou' to' ...
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01-17-2007,
01:09 PM
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JM
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Eph. 2:8
Does this make sense? Ephesians 2:8 Here is a pronounceable transliteration: 8. Tee' ga'r cha'riti' este sesoosme'noi dia' pi'steoos, kai' tou'toouk ex humoo'n, Theou' to' doo'ron, here's the literal transliteration: Te gar chariti (grace) este sesosmenoi (you have been saved) dia pisteos (faith), kai toutoouk (this)ex humon, Theou to doron, (it is, as we find it in our translations, is added for clarity. It's not in the Greek. So we have: chariti, which is feminine sesosmenoi, (or sozo, as it is translated literally), is masculine
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pisteos , is also feminine toutoouk, (or touto, as it is translated literally) is neuter At first this means nothing, until you start to apply Greek grammer rules. Touto is the pronoun. It is the neuter nominative of the feminine houtos, this. Usually the pronoun will agree in gender with it's closest antecedent (the noun in this verse), in this case it's faith. However, grace and faith are both feminine, while the pronoun, this, is neuter. The pronoun does not match the gender of it's closest antecedent in Eph. 2:8. The best possible solution is to move the masculine sozo over and translate it as such: For by grace through faith you are saved, it is not of yourselves. This refers the pronoun, touto, to the entire thought, grace through faith. If Paul wanted (faith) pisteos (feminine) to point to the gift, he would have used houtos, which is also feminine. That would have made a clear connection between faith and the gift. Grace is not the gift here, it is the basis of the gift (though sctipture, in other places, does say it is a gift) and faith is the means in which we accept this gift. Salvation, in this verse, is the gift. Do a word study on Faith. There is only one place where is is actually and directly mentioned as a gift: 1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; but the following verse seems to explain ot better: 2 Corinthians 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, It is an increasing of faith which is the real gift. Thanks, ~JM~
Jason Particular Baptist Ontario, Canada twitter Feileadh Mor YouTube We must remember that literally all our salvation is in Christ. - Herman Hoeksema
01-18-2007,
07:30 AM
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Machaira
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Originally Posted by JM
Does this make sense?
http://www.puritanboard.com/f17/eph-2-8-a-18582/
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Hi Jason, It makes perfect sense. Even someone overtly hostile to Calvinism like A T Robertson gets it. And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine taut, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is Gods gift (dron) and not the result of our work. Robertson's Word Pictures Ignore that part where he uses the word "conditioned."
[B]Jim Polk Former/resigned Ruling Elder, Pilgrim Church, PCA Philadelphia, Pennsylvania[/B] [B][I]Jud 1:3 . . .contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.[/I] [/B] [B][I]God does whatever is right . . . right is whatever God does.[/I][/B]
01-18-2007,
09:22 AM
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Apr 2005 5,756
JM
Ok, thanks.
03-10-2007,
09:51 PM
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CubsIn07
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JM, I am a little bit confused by your exegesis. On the one hand you say that the "touto" refers to the entire idea of salvation being by grace through faith. Later you say that it refers to "salvation." Do you mean the word "salvation" or the whole phrase? It cannot refer just to the word "salvation" because "salvation" is masculine and "touto" is neuter. If Paul wanted to refer to the word "salvation" he could have done this rather easily. "Touto" could also be adverbial in this context. Daniel Wallace has a nice entry on this passage on his Exegetical Syntax. He doesn't seem to think that the exegetical evidence is enough to only maintain that "salvation by grace through faith" can be the "touto" here. Well he will not be a hardliner on this at least. He believes that the adverbial or the above exegesis is fitting, but he can't make a decision. I am inclined to think that the "touto" is the whole phrase because Paul has tendencies to use a neuter demonstrative pronoun to refer back to whole ideas (he does this in chapter one and 3:1)
Last edited by CubsIn07; 03-10-2007 at 10:15 PM.
03-10-2007,
11:57 PM
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JM
Sorry brother [no sig, can't call you by name] but it was a quote and not my exegesis. I haven't studied Greek and was looking for help understanding this passage from the Greek. So, it doesn't make sense? Peace, j
Originally Posted by CubsIn07
JM, I am a little bit confused by your exegesis. On the one hand you say that the "touto" refers to the entire idea of salvation being by grace through faith. Later you say that it refers to "salvation." Do you mean the word "salvation" or the whole phrase? It cannot refer just to the word "salvation" because "salvation" is masculine and "touto" is neuter. If Paul wanted to refer to the word "salvation" he could have done this rather easily. "Touto" could also be adverbial in this context. Daniel Wallace has a nice entry on this passage on his Exegetical Syntax. He doesn't seem to think that the exegetical evidence is enough to only maintain that "salvation by grace through faith" can be the "touto"
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here. Well he will not be a hardliner on this at least. He believes that the adverbial or the above exegesis is fitting, but he can't make a decision. I am inclined to think that the "touto" is the whole phrase because Paul has tendencies to use a neuter demonstrative pronoun to refer back to whole ideas (he does this in chapter one and 3:1)
03-11-2007,
12:44 AM
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CubsIn07
Well the neuter "it" can't refer to the masculine participle "salvation" alone because of the gender confusion between participle and pronoun. I think you understood this, but I was just trying to clear it up. I am caught between the "it" being adverbial meaning that it is intensifying the masculine participle which means that "it" doesn't necessarily refer to anything but is intending to say "especially." In fact it could just be referring forward to the idea that you are not saved by your own doing. Knowledgeable Arminians tend to take this route. But I just don't see how the "it" could be intensive without really intensifying anything in particular (or at least nothing that we can be really sure of). I think it is referring to the idea that salvation, salvation which is by God's grace and through faith as a whole is not of yourselves. But it is possible that Paul is using it adverbially in such a way that we really aren't sure what is being intensified. I tried putting in my signature, but it won't come up. I'm Jeremy.
Jeremy Ellis Member of North Point Community Church Alpharetta, GA
03-11-2007,
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JM
Originally Posted by CubsIn07
Well the neuter "it" can't refer to the masculine participle "salvation" alone because of the gender confusion between participle and pronoun. I think you understood this, but I was just trying to clear it up. I am caught between the "it" being adverbial meaning that it is intensifying the masculine participle which means that "it" doesn't necessarily refer to anything but is intending to say "especially." In fact it could just be referring forward to the idea that you are not saved by your own doing. Knowledgeable Arminians tend to take this route. But I just don't see how the "it" could be intensive without really intensifying anything in particular (or at least nothing that we can be really sure of). I think it is referring to the idea that salvation, salvation which is by God's grace and through faith as a whole is not of yourselves. But it is possible that Paul is using it adverbially in such a way that we really aren't sure what is being intensified. I tried putting in my signature, but it won't come up. I'm Jeremy.
Thank you Jeremy, that was helpful.
03-11-2007,
03:23 PM
#8
Contra_Mundum
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I'll make two replies. 1) it is a quite common Greek convention to use the neuter to collectivize, in which
22/1/2014
Eph. 2:8
case, the strongest argument gramatically (whatever else may be put forward) is that, as has already been stated, the whole idea taken as a unit (with the differing gender specifics) is refered to by "this." 2) it may be that this is the only place where the noun "faith" or "belief" is clearly a gift, or part of a gift. But it is NOT the only place where "to believe" or "to have faith" as a verbal idea is presented as a free gift or grant (we don't have a verb "faithing", but the Greek terms are obvious cognates). Example: Philippians 1:29 "Because to you it has been granted in the behalf of Christ, a) not only to believe on him, b) but also to suffer in his behalf. The two parts (a) and (b) complete the verb.
Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan

ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Acts 2:36 - 1 C or. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - He bre ws 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - Jam e s 4:12 When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer
Oh, that God the gift would give us To see ourselves as others see us.
--R obe rt Burns, 1786 (m ode rnize d) C lick to ge t: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? -- Sermons
03-13-2007,
12:15 PM
#9
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Jimmy the Greek

Puritanboard Senior
For by grace you have been saved by faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NASB. I know the ESV renders touto as this, which may be more proper, but the following is an extract from an article I already had written: There are two main interpretations of this text, both interpretations hinging on what is meant by the phrase and that , more specifically the pronoun that (NASB). This demonstrative pronoun has an antecedent to which it refers. So the question is, What is the that which is the gift of God? 1. The first interpretation takes it as referring to faith. This has been the view of many Bible scholars over the years, e.g. Augustine, Beza, Hodge, Kuyper, and Hendriksen. This is also the natural meaning one would take from the plain reading of the English text. If this interpretation is correct, then the question is immediately settled, faith is the gift. Those holding this view would paraphrase it like this, By grace you have been saved through faith, and even your faith is not of yourselves; faith is a gift from God, so you cannot boast in the least. Thus Paul is stressing here that even your faith is a gift in order to exclude the possibility of any boasting.
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The difficulty with this view is as follows. In the Greek, that is a neuter demonstrative pronoun but faith is a feminine noun. The general rule would have the two agree in gender. Why would Paul use what may be viewed as awkward or incorrect grammar? Those who hold this first interpretation give several replies. For example, a pronoun usually but not always agrees with its noun in gender. There are exceptions to the general rule as can be seen in the Greek of Acts 8:10, Jude 12, 2 Pet. 2:17, 1 Pet. 2:19, 1 Cor. 6:11, and 1 Cor. 10:6 (Ref. A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 704). Examples may also be found in classical and Koine Greek where neuter pronouns are used to refer to both masculine and feminine nouns. It has also been suggested that the formula and that (Greek: kai touto) is often used in a technical sense to add special emphasis to the idea to which it is attached, and in this case it is attached to the word faith in the Greek as well as in the English translation. Finally, it is also generally true that a pronoun refers to the nearest antecedent or closest noun. Again, in this case, it is the word faith. 2. The other major interpretation has the word that referring back to the whole preceding thought, centering on the verb. This is the view of other well known scholars such as Calvin, Eadie, Matthew Henry, and John Gill. This view may have fewer difficulties and appeals to some direct grammatical parallels for support. There are four other sentences in the New Testament, all by Paul, which are grammatically parallel: 1 Cor. 6:6 and 6:8, Phil. 1:28, and Rom. 13:11. In each of these, the demonstrative pronoun, that , refers to the whole preceding clause or sentence with the thought centering on the verb. According to this view, Eph. 2:8-9 would be paraphrased thus, By grace you have been saved through faith. But this salvation is not of yourselves, salvation is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. This last interpretation is also readily adopted by those who deny that faith, itself, is a gift. They think that if that does not refer specifically to faith they have made their case. But there are a couple of snags here. First, in this interpretation, that refers to the whole idea of the preceding clause. It is not merely salvation which is the gift of God, but salvation through faith which is Gods gift. Hence, this doesnt exclude faith as a gift. On the contrary, if the whole of salvation is the gift, then so are the parts that make up the whole and here that specifically includes faith. Faith is intrinsic to salvation. Secondly, even if somehow one could show that Paul did not mean to imply that faith is a gift here, that does not mean that Paul is denying that faith is a gift. He would simply be saying something else. However, I personally favor the first view. If that doesnt refer to faith then it must indeed refer to the idea of salvation. Yet, if we take Paul to mean this being saved is not of yourselves he would be somewhat guilty of needless repetition, for he has just said we are saved by grace, which by definition is not of ourselves. The whole context of Ephesians up to this point, and especially chapter 2, seems to be stressing the fact that it is all by Gods grace. We were made alive when we were yet dead, not in response to our faith. I think this is the point Paul is making: even our faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God!
Jim 1689 LBCF Independent Bible Church North Texas, USA
03-13-2007,
12:40 PM
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CubsIn07
I don't mean to quibble, but you are translating a near demonstrative "touto" or "this" as a far demonstrative "ekeinos" or "that." Is there interplay between the two? Wallace says on p. 334 of his Exegetical Syntax that R.H. Countess wrote an article in JETS where he said that a neuter demonstrative can refer back to a noun of a different gender. Wallace goes on to say that Countess cites no NT examples and two of his classical examples actually refer to concepts rather than nouns. From Wallace's perspective the jury is either out or is ruling against the idea that a neuter demonstrative can refer back to a masculine or feminine. In the Acts 8:10 passage I don't think the demonstrative has gender difficulties with its noun. The demonstrative "outos" is nominative, singular, masculine and is referring back to "magic" or "mageuov" which is also nominative, singular, masculine. What exactly do you mean when you say "There are four other sentences in the New Testament, all by Paul, which are grammatically parallel: 1 Cor. 6:6 and 6:8, Phil. 1:28, and Rom. 13:11"? Do you mean that a neuter pronoun refers back to a collective?
03-13-2007,
12:53 PM
#11
Contra_Mundum
Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger
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Jeremy, You seem to think... ...that Lou Pinella might be the savior for the World... Series, hope springing eternal... Wait... this is really getting off topic I think. I agree that whatever can be said grammatically for "faith" singly, as the referent, or theologically as a powerful affirmation of faith as a gift, it is the weaker argument. Taking the phrase as a whole, and then showing systematically that all the parts of the whole are granted, is not only safer exegetically, but ties the doctrine together with the rest of Scripture in an unanswerable punch. One can then go back to this passage and affirm any single piece of the verse, including faith, as a portion of the gift given. And know that Paul had such in his mind when he spoke of them collectively.
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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan

ChainOLakes Presbyterian Church, CentralLake, MI
Acts 2:36 - 1 C or. 10:9-10 & 15:22-26 - He bre ws 2:9-15 - 1 John 3:8 - Jam e s 4:12 When posting friends, kindly bear those words of earthly wisdom in mind:
Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer
Oh, that God the gift would give us To see ourselves as others see us.
--R obe rt Burns, 1786 (m ode rnize d) C lick to ge t: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? -- Sermons
03-13-2007,
01:11 PM
#12
Join Date: Posts: Jan 2007 69
CubsIn07
Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum
Jeremy, You seem to think... ...that Lou Pinella might be the savior for the World... Series, hope springing eternal... Wait... this is really getting off topic I think. I agree that whatever can be said grammatically for "faith" singly, as the referent, or theologically as a powerful affirmation of faith as a gift, it is the weaker argument. Taking the phrase as a whole, and then showing systematically that all the parts of the whole are granted, is not only safer exegetically, but ties the doctrine together with the rest of Scripture in an unanswerable punch. One can then go back to this passage and affirm any single piece of the verse, including faith, as a portion of the gift given. And know that Paul had such in his mind when he spoke of them collectively.
That's as sure as the Cubs winning the World Series this year!
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Does this make sense?

Jeremy Ellis Member of North Point Community Church Alpharetta, GA

Originally Posted by CubsIn07

Thank you Jeremy, that was helpful.

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan

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Jimmy the Greek

Jim 1689 LBCF Independent Bible Church North Texas, USA

Jeremy Ellis Member of North Point Community Church Alpharetta, GA

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Rev. Bruce G. Buchanan

Made both Lord and Christ--Jesus, the Destroyer

Originally Posted by Contra_Mundum

Jeremy Ellis Member of North Point Community Church Alpharetta, GA

Divorce and Remarriage | This passage is somewhat of a block for me...

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