Haider Ali Vs Yusuf Best Dialogue On Ahlul Bayt

Haider Ali Prophet(Saw) called wives as Ahlelbayt. And what abt your 9 Imams aren't they Ahlelbayt?
You didn't include them

in the list.
May 5 at 2:30pm Like

Yusuf Best I would like to share this article with our sunni brothers..

http://jafrianews.com/.../yemeni-wahabi-cleric-converted.../

Yemeni Wahabi Cleric Converted to Shiism , Discloses the Secrets and Pillars of Wahabism
jafrianews.com
JNN 02 April 2014 Qom : Based on an Interview conducted by Maw'ud monthly with Dr. Esam Al-Emad about the politico-
cultural situation of the Shiites of Yemen. Dr. Emad belongs to Yemen and he used ...
May 5 at 6:37pm Like 2 Remove Preview

Haider Ali And I would like to share this article with our Shia friendshttp://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/.../from-whom-
do.../

From whom do you take your religion?
youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com
From whom do you take your religion? The answer for this question is one of the reasons why I(Ebn Hussein) left Shiism.
. ...
May 5 at 6:43pm Like Remove Preview

Haider Ali Also I would like to share with Shia friends, this interesting article, where you find a BIG SHIA scholar converting to
Ahlesunnahhttp://gift2shias.com/.../shia-cleric-shaykh-al-moayyad.../

This is Shia cleric Hussein Al-Moayyad who left Shiism for Islam and Sunnah
gift2shias.com
Every sect and religion has their reverts and converts, so do the Rafidah. A few Christians, Hindus and other pagan Mushriks
here and there (who don't need to change alot, they travel from polythei...
Shamim Alidina Haider Ali...if you believe the above site....then watch what ive seen there....so you believe that as well lol

Haider Ali There are videos of Shia scholars who went crazy after this BIg Shia scholar became Sunni. So what are you trying
to say, plz be clear.
May 5 at 6:53pm Like 2

Yusuf Best Haider Ali

Inshaallah I will read your 2012 and 2013 articles. For the sake of truth, I hope u would read the 2014 article that I share. .

Shamim Alidina My laptop seems to be giving some problem...IA will try later for you...

Haider Ali Yusuf Best I just read the article you gave, what caught my eye, was some of the thoughts which this guy shared,
Let me Quote those words the article states {Ibn-e Hajar Al-Asqalani, who is one of the top ranking Sunni scholars, is reported
to have said: I am really sorry to see that early Sunni scholars who lived during the first to the fourth centuries regarded every
Shia, whom they should have considered as early narrator, as liar and considered every anti-Ahlulbayt (a.s.) and anti-Shiite
narrator as honest and faithful. } But this is not true, because they were several narrators who were Shia, but were considered
Thiqa(trustworthy) by the first fourth century scholars. You should know that there are many narrators in the ahadeeth of Sahih
Bukhari who were Shia, You will find articles on Shiawebsite regarding this issue, If you need more examples then let me give
some, SUNNI SCHOLAR Ahmad bin Hanbal, also strengthens several Shias. We see in Bahr Al-Dam that he said about
Sulaiman bin Qarm that he was not bad even though he was excessive in his tashayyu. We also find him saying that Ali bin
Buthaima is decent in hadith, and yet called him a leader in tashayyu. SUNNI SCHOLAR Al-Ijli, from his book on Thiqaat,
strengthened the following Shias:
Taleed bin Sulaiman, Jafar bin Sulaiman, Hibban bin Ali, Al-Hasan bin Salih bin Salih, Al-Jabbar bin Al-Abbas, SUNNI
SCHOLAR Yahya bin Maeen also strengthens the following Shia in his books of sualaat. For example, but going through Al -
Duris book alone, we find him strengthening the following Shias:
Mohammad bin Katheer Al-Kufi, Fitr bin Khalifa, and Salama Al-Abrash. So Now this raises some serious doubts on the
credibility of the supposed convert Scholar you referred, Ask you to be fair and unbiased and tell me why did he say this false
thing? Can he be relied on whatelse he says now? DId he say such false thing because Shiism encourages it? If you say no,
then I can give you good proofs from Shia sources.

Haider Ali Yusuf Best Also as for the criticism on Sunni hadeeth science by the untrustworthy and unknown scholar, Here are
the answers, take out some time to read these: http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/.../part-2-the.../

Part 2: The Imams from Ahlebayt whom Shia consider to be their divinely appointed Imams were on...
Exposing the reality of Shia propaganda that the love and adherence of Ahlesunna...See More


Thank you for sharing your opinions.

Firstly, he quoted from ibn hajar asqalani.

So, if according to u, ibn hajar mentioned something thats not true, the one quoting him is to be blamed?

Secondly, although the early scholars do make exceptions, it is actually common knowledge and very obvious that many
enemies of ahlul bayt a.s. are given priorities and higher standing than supporters of shlul bayt a.s.
May 5 at 7:53pm Edited Like 1
Yusuf Best http://www.shiachat.com/.../235015707-response-to.../

Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal - Shia/Sunni Dialogue
www.shiachat.com
Page 1 of 3 - Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal - posted in Shia/Sunni Dialogue: This is a section from yatullh
al-Shaykh Muhammad al-Sanad s second volume in his rijl series (pages 105 - 111) where he criticizes and refutes the
methods of the Sunni Rijl Scholars - e


with regards to the topic of wives, I would prefer to follow the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.aw. If Rasulullah s.a.a.w point to this
people and say there are the people for whom this verse was revealed for, I would go for that rather than the opinions of others.

Every seeker of truth should look at this issue from these angle.

1. Who are the five mentioned in hadith kisa? What distinguish them from the rest of the ummah? What caused the shias to be
so devoted to them? What cause Rasulullah s.a.a.w to exalt and praise them? Is it just because of being family? if a pious
believer is suppose to be impartial to family in matters of faith, would Rasulullah s.a.a.w contradict clear Islamic principl es?

2. look at the angle that Rasulullah s.a.a.w equated the ahlul bayt a.s with the Quran in many hadiths.

The high status accorded to ahlul bayt a.s. in numerous hadiths point to us that ahlul bayt is not a general status where every
one is included. Rather it clearly denotes a position of honor such that following these personalities lead to guifance and
abandoning them leads one astray.

THINK.

" Behold! My Ahlul-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was saved, and whoever turned away from it was
perished." -Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p343, v3, pp 150-151 on the authority of Abu Dhar. al-
Hakim said this tradition is authentic (Sahih). Fadhail al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p786

Can such a position of honor be given to someone just because of relation?
Haider Ali You need to provide the quote, where Ibn hajar said that, becoz that scholar, didn't give any reference, if you want to
be his advocate then plz provide the Arabic references, otherwise, he will be loose his credibility. And regarding attack on Sunni
hadeeth science, seems you aren't updated, becoz this has been thoroughly and academically refuted here , also in the link you
gave the last response is on May 1, where as here the last response is on May 3, http://islamic-
forum.net/index.php?showtopic=20419&st=0

In Defense of Sunni Hadith Sciences - Muslims vs Shias - [English]
islamic-forum.net
Page 1 of 2 - In Defense of Sunni Hadith Sciences - posted in Muslims vs Shias - [English]: A fellow that goes by the name:
Darul_Islam on Shiachat posted some garbage on Shiachat, in which he attacks the Sunni hadith system by translating an
excerpt from the book of Mohammed Al-Sanad. The brother

Haider Ali Regarding Ahlelbayt, I prefer that Quran be the Judge between us, SO here is something which has been proven,
from Quran, in a different way than before. Because as for hadeth you have diff standards and we have diff and also the
inerpretation of hadeeth Kisa differs. So to cut short the discussion and to keep it decisive, lets see how Quran itself proves who
Ahlelbayt are. So please read this and Share your view on this article:http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/.../for-whom-
the.../

For whom the verse of purification(tatheer) was revealed and what is the concept of...
Allah informs us that His Book has been not kept completely dependent on traditions for its exegesis, by indicating that the
Quran is its own commentary. What is mentioned in general terms in one...

Yusuf Best on top of that, the verse itself is very clear about the honour given to the ahlul bayt a.s.

It is not mere purification but it is purification from all rijs.

Is it then surprising that the wives are not included?

How can wives be included when one of the wives actually fought the caliph of her time Imam Ali a.s.?

If we arw to throw away the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w, and throw away our rationale and include the wives in ahlul bayt, then
are we not ridiculing Allah s.w.t and Rasulullah s.a.a.w.?

We are telling Allah s.w.t that He has make a mistake.

He exalt the family of Rasulullah s.a.a.w for no apparent reason other than the fact that they are related to him and they are not
even peaceful with one another.

How can they be equated with guidance?

How can they be equated with the Quran then?

Nauzubillah.

The truth then clearly is with the shias who say Allah s.w.t exalted these individuals for their qualities.

"Ali is with Quran and Quran is with Ali"

"Ali is with truth and truth is with Ali"

"Fatima is the chief of the women of the worlds"

"Hassan and Hussein are the leaders of the youths of paradise"


u say let the Quran be the judge. But the Quran does not speak.

The true intrepeter of the Quran is Rasulullah s.a.a.w and after him the ahlul bayt a.s.

Ibn Hanbal says:

Wakihas related to us from Fitr from Ismail bin Raja from his father from Abi Said who narrates that the Messenger of All ah
(S) said (addressing his companions):

Inna minkum man yuqatilu ala tawilih kama qataltu ala tanzilih (Who among you will fight for the interpretation [of the Quran]
as I fought on its revelation)?

Abi Said says:

At this Abu Bakr and Umar got up but the Messenger of Allah (S) said:

la, wa lakin khasif al-nal (No [not you] but the one who is busy mending the shoe).

(Abi Said adds):

Wa Aliyun yakhsifu nalahu (And [Imam] Ali (a) was mending his shoes.1

It is recorded that during the Battle of Siffin the Prophets loyal companion Ammar bin Yasir who was on the side of Imam Ali
(a), referred to this famous hadith of the Prophet in favour of Imam Ali (a) while facing the Syrian army of the rebel Muawiyah
bin Abi Sufyan, and recited the following epic verses (rajaz):

Nahnu darabnakum ala tanzilih

Wa al-yawm nadribukum ala tawilih

(We had fought you on the revelation [of the Quran] and today we are fighting you on its correct interpretation).2

1.Al-Musnad, Matbaah al-Maymaniyyah, vol. 3, pp. 31 & 33; also refer to p. 82 of the same volume where the hadith says
Imam Ali (a) was mending the Prophets shoes.2.Taha Husayn, al-Fitnah al-Kubra (Ali and Prophethood), vol. 2, p. 77, 6th
edition, Dar al-Maarif, Egypt, 1969.
Haider Ali Yusuf Best You asked me to read certain article, I read and shared my views on it, quoting from it what I feel was
worthy to be criticized. On the other hand you seems to have not read any of the articles I gave you, and you don't either want
to read, them, and now you started throwing reports which would derail the topic asusual, so why beating around the bush? if
you have anything in that article which i gave that after reading you disagree with, then discuss it, throwing is a way to get away
or derail the topic. Btw, in that article there is no hadeeth mentioned, on Quran used. So read it and then comment it, just copy
pasting business wouldn't serve any benefit to you.


I am reading while discussing the important issues. please have patience for I have family, work and had merely commented
out of interest in the topic at hand. If not, I hate debating as it does not lead to truths but sometimes can create more confusions
especially when its a battle of egoes.

With regards to the latest 'rebuttal' that u posted, I noticed it was not a rebuttal but rather an affirmation of the points raised.

The writer merely raised few exceptions to the rule and ask why the shia scholar did not include that.

How can u consider that to be a rebuttal? In fact, he agrees that a murderer of Imam Hussain a.s. was considered thiqa even
though it was admitted he did the heinous crime.

Unless of course, you consider murdering Imam Hussain a.s. to be a small crime. nauzubillah.

Yusuf Best A question that I would ask simply pertaining to the first rebuttal with regards to Umar ibn Saad, is that how do u
consider him? trustworthy?

How can u not consider him trustworthy when he is a tabieen?

You then have to contradict your school of thought just to win an argument with a shia..

Haider Ali 1. You cannot reach any where putting your feet at multiple boats, discussing all issues at once would further
confuse you, as you seem to be. 2. You seem to have dropped the idea of defending the unknown scholars views which he
attributed to ibn hajar. One can understand why, and one can even understand what encouraged him to do so. 3. You seem to
be misinformed that, those are exceptions, but its just a last shot from those who are clinging to the burnt rope. Because the
Shia argument is twisted after the refutation now, because there exists proves which goes against the propaganda, so now to
save themselves from humiliation they came up with the card of calling those exceptions, but in the link I gave, it has been
thoroughly explained that there was no biasness between Sunni scholars regarding Jarh or Tadeel, and plenty of proofs have
been provided there itself, and THE IRONY is that, the Shia debator eventually affirmed that ITS THE SHIA SCIENCE OF
HADEETH WHICH FACES THIS PROBLEM, but as I said, just to save themselves from humiliation , they want to drag Sunni
science too in the pit where they are standing. So this is ridiculous, it seems that you don't even bother about Shia hadeeth
science in first place. 4. If you have basic knowledge of hadeeth science, then tell me, does committing a major sin(Unlike l ying)
effect the credibility of someone? If you say yes, then I say why on earth you shias take narrations from Nasibis, Khawarijis etc
because even they have committed a major sin acc to you. And I can give you Shia reports which says that ahadeeth of
Khawarij isn't to be rejected, and not to forget that the most beloved Khutba to Shias, Ash- Shiqshiqqiya, don't you know my
friend that it was narrated by a Khawariji to you. So now aren't they committers of grave Sin? Doesn't this shows the double
standards of you guys. And if you say that it does effect credibility of narrators then you need to throw away all the books you
have because majority of it reached to you through innovators(who are grave sinners).

Yusuf Best In reply to this article,

http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/.../for-whom-the.../

I would like to reiterate the point that the Quran being a manual for our salvation comes with an interpreter. And that is
Rasulullah s.a.a.w.

Why should we discard his interpretation for the opinions of others? And the article is but an opinion,

Did he or did he not point to the house of Zahra and say that this verse was reveal for her family?

Did not time and time again, he s.a.a.w point out the family of lady Fatima s.a. and tell the muslims to love them and tying love
for them with love for him?

Cant u see that this family sacrifice and suffered so much for Islam?

Cant u see that they are al ghareeb even amongst muslims?

What I see is that rivals are created for their position so that people will not recognise the true Islam. If the murderer and the
murdered are both good and purified, then anything can be good and purified.

The shia position has been misrepresented. It is accused that we gave our own tafseer when we merely refered to Rasulullah
s.a.a.w. who know the apparent and hidden meaning of the Quran.

The fact that there is suddenly a grammar change within the verse itself is a HUGE question mark.

Is it address to the wives only or to the whole house? If it is addressed to the wives only, then there should not be any
grammatical change at all..

The article says
' But the shias say that though the initial part of verse (33:33) addresses wives of prophet(Saw) but the later part of same verse
(i.e Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless) does
not address the wives of prophet(Saw) (as the later and former verses are addressing) but in an unusual manner this verse
addresses those who are nowhere clearly mentioned even in that chapter.'

The answer is that this is not the only time in the Quran such a phenomenon occur. Please refer to Quran 5:3.

The first part of the verse was with regards to prohibition of eating pork and the last part is with regards to completion of deen.

Many sunni Quran commentators say that the last part of the verse was revealed at ghadeer khum where it has nothing to do
with prohobition of pork

This again proves that to know the meaning of the Quran we must NOT discard the asbabun nuzul and the tafseer given by
Rasulullah s.a.a.w and his ahlul bayt a.s. who are the rightful interpreters.

We are muslims. Submitters. We are not competitors with Allah s.w.t's divinely appointed representatives.

THINK.

For whom the verse of purification(tatheer) was revealed and what is the concept of...
Allah informs us that His Book has been not kept completely dependent on tradit...See More
May 5 at 11:46pm Edited Like 3 Remove Preview

Haider Ali Lol... So you found yourself, helpless when only Quran was to be used as decisive source. Praise be to Allah! And
you want to cling to the fabricated or authentic but misinterpreted reports, which condradict Quran, as Quran the speech of
Allah, proves that wives of Prophet(saw) are Ahlelbayt mentioned in 33:33. Did you forget the rule taught in your own books,
which states that any hadeeth which goes against Quran is to be rejected, but if you go by Sunni view then the hadeeth of kisa
are easily reconciled if correct interpreted, so its time for you to contemplate and think over this issue, ponder over that article,
because this has become a proof over you, which might be asked to you in the day of judgement, if you reject it due to your
bias or arrogance. So my sincere advice to you is read those articles, contemplate over them and ask Allah for guidance. May
Allah guide you.
May 6 at 1:46am Unlike 2

Haarib Farooqi May Allah guide him.
May 6 at 1:50am Like


I understand your objection. However, in this case, it is not justified.

As explained earlier, this is not the only part of the Quran where such a thing occur where in a single verse, there were different
context to revelation. The example I had given is the verse 5:3. That is sufficient for truth seeker to ponder.

If indeed we are using Quran to explain Quran, then we should not be too quick to dismiss this point.

At the end of the day, if we are unsure, we should refer to the divine representatives of Allah s.w.t because it is only them who
have the correct and thorough understanding of the Quran.

Secondly, the article that you share provide a one sided view of the argument. For one to reach the truth, it is important that one
look at the bigger picture.

You mentioned that the hadith kisa can be reconciled if 'correctly' interpreted. In fact, it cannot be reconciled. The hadith kisa
does not include any wives. Theres even hadiths that mention the wives were rejected to be in the kisa.

The article also did not cover a clear dilemma. Who here has been purified?

If the instructiins were given for the wives, why then others are purified?

Is there any narration where Rasulullah s.a.a.w point to the wives and say this verse of tatheer is revealed for them? No.

If you reject the clear prophetic sunnah and follow opinions, are u then really the people of sunnah?

I believe that it is the plan of Allah s.wt that this verse is placed in such a position in the Quran that will protect the truth from
being tampered by the hands of the enemies of ahlul bayt a.s. while preserving it for future generations.

At the end of the day, even the sunnis agree that Imam Al Mahdi ajtf will be from descendants of Fatima s.a. and not from other
wives. This family has been so exalted that the savior of mankind at the end of times will be from this purified household.

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said,
"Indeed, I will make you an Imam." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the
wrongdoers."
Quran 2:125

May Allah bless the ones who accept true guidance.

Allahumma salli ala Muhammad wa aali Muhammad wa ajjil farajahum.
May 6 at 7:15am Edited Like 1

Michael Noor Yusuf best in here LOL i pwned him b4 and he block me now when he cant answer he is a pathetic noobhead

Haider Ali Yusuf Best 1. That article from Quran proves that commands given prior to purification or removal of bad, are related
to each other. Which implies that 33:33 was related to the commands given prior in it, and these commands are similar to the
other verses too. For which you don't have a rational response. You jumped to example of Surah Maidah, but that doesn't
support your case, because here we are talking about a specific issue of purification and how the commands prior to it are
connected to concept of purification. Got it now? 2.So you see you are trying to compare apple with oranges, because the
discussion is specific to purification, and are the commands prior to it has any relation to the next verse which talks about
purification, so the article proved this from sufficient example, which people of wisdom will admit. 3 Hadeeth Kisa can be
reconciled with it if understood properly, though there are many versions of kisa, many are weak or fabrication, but if you see
the authentic ones, then the correct interpretation to it is that after the verse was revealed for wives of Prophet(saw),
Prophet(saw) made a quick dua supplication to include 4 persons in it. So we believe that even they were included in the favour
of Allah which was initially for wives of prophet(saw), due to the dua(supplication) of Prophet. So in this simple way it is
reconciled. And if you ask what was the condition for purification for Ahlekisa, then that would most probably be Salah, because
its reported in some weak reports that Prophe(saw) would go at the door of Fatima(ra) and remind them of Prayer and recite
this verse for months.
May 6 at 11:52am Like 1

Haider Ali Yusuf Best Here are few questions which you should ponder over: 1. if the verse of purification was revealed for
those who(ahle kisa) were not even mentioned in a clear manner even in the whole chapter, and not for the wives of
prophet(Saw) to whom the previous and later verses were addressed then why were they specially given commands which
were means to purification like obeying Allah and his messenger(saw) , offering prayer and paying zakat because all these
commands were applicable for every believer in general, which were ordained in different verses of quran ?

2. Why were they given warnings which were unique for them and were promised for special rewards in those verses?

3. If because of being wives of prophet they are considered mothers of believers and they are not comparable to other women ,
and are given special commands then why do you feel its weird if all these restrictions and commands are because Allah
wanted to purify them because they were the wives of his pure prophet(saw)?

4. And if this verse was revealed for people of the cloak(ahle kisa) then, why is it that Allah desires/wishes to purify them as
though Allah wanted them to fulfill some conditions. If Allah had wished/desired to purify them without setting any condition then
he would have said, Verily we had purified you or verily you are the purified ones but nothing as such was mentioned here in
quran.

5. Why did prophet(Saw) in the first instance supplicated for Ali(ra)s family to be purified if at all the verse was revealed for
them and Allah had already intended purification for them by revealing the verse ?

6. And how many times did the Prophet(saw) invoke Allah to make Ali(ra)s family pure and spotless? The Shia will proudly
show multiple times, citing many examples from the Hadith of the Ahlus Sunnah; and we, the Ahlus Sunnah, acknowledge that
the Prophet (saw) did ask Allah multiple times to make Ali(ra)s family pure and spotless. However, we wonder why there would
be a need for the Prophet(saw) to keep asking for purification of his family? He asked again and again. If they were infallible
and did not have any sins to begin with, then there would be no need to ask Allah(saw) again and again for this purification.


The article you merely attempted to explain the Quran with the Quran but certainly it failed,

This is not a claim but a fact.

And we are NOT comparing apple and oranges here. Both the verse of tatheer and ayat of 5:3 are revealed by Allah s.w.t to His
messenger s.a.a.w.

The first part of the verse of al Maidah is with regards to prohibition of pork and the second part is related to completion of
religion.

When one neglects the prophetic sunnah, he may conclude that the completion of religion is just because of the prohibition of
pork.

However, when we refer to the asbabun nuzul of the verse, we realised that there is a deeper meaning and that the verse of
perfection and completion of deen was because of the announcement of the successorship of Imam Ali a.s. after Rasulullah
s.a.a.w.

The article that u shared failed to consider this point.

Verses after verses are brought as proofs without consideration for their asbabun nuzul.

If prohibition of pork does not lead to completion of religion, why then should the commands for the wives lead to the purifi cation
of the family of Fatima s.a.?

This is a huge question that the article FAILED to address.

You claim to have an authentic hadith where Rasulullah s.a.a.w pointed to the wives and say that this verse of tatheer was
revealed for them. I have never seen such a hadith.

If u have, please share it here..


allow me to answer your important questions as satisfactorily as I can insyaallah..

Haider Ali Dude, you again missed the plot, I already stated that, I have proven the FACT that, purification for non-prophets
comes through following certain commands, and both are related to each other, this is what explained there, for which you had
no rational answer. In all examples given we, found that similar commands were given to people and then to the same people it
was said about purification or removal of bad things, So Its established now from ample examples of quran that the commands
of 33:33 are connected to purification verse.

Abu Jaiyana Yusuf Best is evading the clear point as usual. in surah 5:3 there is a clear relevance, the ayat are complimentary,
there is no problem with regards to thee context of the verse itself and the verses before and after it. In surah 33:33 the context
of the verse itself as well as the verses before and after it clearly talk about the wives, not the ahlelkisa and it would only be
problematic contextually if the wives are excluded from it. The question is very important to contemplate - why did the Prophet
gather the ahlelkisa and say 'o Allah, they are my ahlulbayt' if Allah was referring to them in the ayah in the first place? The
most logical explanation is that the ahlulbayt mentioned in the ayah are the wives, and the Prophet pleaded to Allah to include
the ahlulkisa in it because of the honor of being purified.

Michael Noor Abu Jaiyana can u approve my post ty

Abu Jaiyana my challenge still stands until now, the shias are absolutely helpless and they are forced to admit that 33:33
referd to the wives if we alloww the the verse to speak for itself even without appealing to the verse before and after it.

Yusuf Best Abu Jaiyana Haider Ali

Just a quick rebuttal before I answer Haider Ali's questions.

We have waited for our sunni brothers to share with us any evidence from the prophetic sunnah that Rasulullah s.a.a.w pointed
to the wives and told them that this verse was revealed for them.

You are jumping in joy while you have failed to produce any evidence for your case except for a narrow minded interpretation of
the Quran using your own man made rationale and ignoring the points that I had raised.

Look.

When Rasulullah s.a.a.w pointed to the family of Fatima s.a. in hadith kisa, did he mention the preceding verse where wives
were mentioned?

Again, if u can produce any narration where the wives were pointed out with the full Quranic verse as well as in context of
revelation, we will accept your logic immediately.

So far I have never seen such a narration. The only narrations I have seen is of the purification verse standing on its own and
was intended towards the family of Fatima s.a..

Therefore the truth seeker need not be confused with the position of the verse in the ayat as

1. This happens for other verses as well like the verse 5:3 as proven earlier

2. An objection was raised that purification always come after some commands.

The answer is that not always.

Many times, commands are issued WITHOUT any purification.

For example, please refer Quran chapter 58 verse 13.

Since it is not the rule, and we have proven that all the narrations show that the verse of tatheer stands alone, we have no
choice but adhere to the prophetic sunnah if we are indeed the people of sunnah.

Yusuf Best Narrated Aisha:

One day the Prophet (PBUH&HF) came out afternoon wearing a black cloak (upper garment or gown; long coat), then al-Hasan
Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Husain came and entered the cloak, then Fatimah
came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the
Prophet recited: "God Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and
purify you a perfect purification (the last sentence of Verse 33:33)."

Sunni reference:

* Sahih Muslim, Chapter of virtues of companions, section of the virtues of the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), 1980
Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1883, Tradition #61.

Haider Ali Yusuf Best You said: We have waited for our sunni brothers to share with us any evidence from the prophetic
sunnah that Rasulullah s.a.a.w pointed to the wives and told them that this verse was revealed for them.
RESPONSE: For issues, that were clear, from Quran there wasn't a neccessity to report a hadeeth from Prophet(saw), Imagine
someone asking a hadeeth for Quranic, verse which talks about wives of Prophet(saw), his daughters and believing women
should observe hijab. Every reader blessed with wisdom knows that, its about whom. Similarly the context of 33:33 itself was so
clear that its apparent that it was for wives of Prophet(saw), EVEN IF QURAN HANDED OVER TO AN ATHIEST and if you ask
him to read the whole context and then ask him who are Ahlelbayt, by Allah he will say, that wives of Muhammad(Saw), so this
matter is clear like Sun in cloudless day. So for such a clear mater which even an atheist could understand, there wasn't
necessity to report a hadeeth abt who Ahlelbayt were. And we have even proven this from other examples of Quran, using
purification concept and relation of commands to it. Yet, we have provided an authentic hadeeth from ibn abbas(ra) regarding
whom Prophet(saw) prayed he may be granted Quranic understanding, and he said, 33:33 was for wives of Prophet(Saw). And
Hadeeth Kisa, narrated by Ayesha(ra) doesn't proves that verse was revealed for people of cloak, rather this was an action or
dua done after the verse was revealed inorder include people of cloak too among Ahlelbayt were intended to be purified by
Allah.


It is amazing that when we ask our brothers to refer to the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w, he tells us not to. Instead of that, he
tells us to refer to the tafseer of an atheist.

Mashaallah.. Are the muslims suppose to follow tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w or an atheist?

I believe the issue has been covered completely except for few irrelevant questions pertaining to the wives being mother of the
believers.

The answer to that is when we study the context of revelation, we find that they were called the mother of believers not as a
distinction but merely to prevent others from marrying them after the demise of Rasulullah s.a.a.w. It was NOT a virtue for them
but rather an honour bestowed upon Rasulullah s.a.a.w. by Allah s.w.t.

Islam is clear. No one is higher than another by anything other than piety. Relations, skin color and other things that we do not
have a choice over it does not bring about reward or punishment.

Do read the article below for further information.

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/apropos2.html

Mothers of Believers - SDOL.org (Shiaism Discussed Online)
www26.brinkster.com
Answer Sunni claims about the rights of Ummul Momineens. What does being a mother of a believer really mean?

Yusuf Best http://twelvershia.net/.../respone-to-what-does-mother.../

Response to: What does Mother of Believers Really Mean? | Twelver Shia
twelvershia.net
The following is a refutation by Kalaam Javed to the article on RevistingtheSala...See More

Yusuf Best //Why did prophet(Saw) in the first instance supplicated for Ali(ra)s family to be purified if at all the verse was
revealed for them and Allah had already intended purification for them by revealing the verse ?/

The answer is simple.

Rasulullah s.a.aw wants to emphasise the status and honor of the family of Fatima sa. as per the verse.

The sunni brothers should answer this question too.

If the purification was for the wives, why then are others included?

The only way out is IF we follow the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w where he mention the verse of tatheer on its own and did not
include the wives.

Our sunni brothers should not discard the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w for their own tafseer or worse an atheist..

Why? There are mutashabihat verses and there are muhkamat verses.

" He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm (MUHKIMAT) revelations (which are
straightforward/clear with one meaning); they are the Mother/Foundation of the Book (UM AL-KITABI); and others which are
similar (MUTASHBIHAT) (which are unclear with multiple meanings/Allegorical). As for those who have a disease in their
hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its
interpretation except Allah, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say: We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And
none will remember except those who possess intelligence."
Quran 3:7

Dhulqarnin Bin AbdulJalil Limpao Poor reading comprehension ! When they say if you ask atheist it doesn't mean they
interpret it lolz.. Anyway, if your read the Ayah before 33 it say's like this ; O WIVES of the Prophet, whoever of you shoul d
commit a clear immorality - for her the punishment would be doubled two fold, and this is easy to Allah. Ayah 30. Can any shia
who can explain why is the word WIVES in this ayah is mentioned and explain it till ayah 34? Thanks

Yusuf Best Dhulqarnin Bin AbdulJalil Limpao

it has already been explained above.

Shiitu El Jega Yes check it on

Haider Ali Yusuf Best Im posting the response to your silly claim regarding wives f Prophet(saw) and the title of Mother of
belieevers,, from the same link you posted, i.e twelvershia website. I don't know why you posted that link, which busted your
misconception.

we will prove that this verse not only proves the prohibition of marrying the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), but it also
shows the honor of the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him).
Sunni Tafaseer
1. Tafseer Qurtubi:
;
And his wives (i.e wives of the Prophet) are their mothers (i.e mothers of believers). Allah venerated the wives of His Prophet
(s) by giving them the status of mothers of believers, i.e to be respected and venerated and the prohibition of re-marrying.
Tafseer Qurtubi Vol. 14, p. 123
2. Tafseer Ibn Katheer:
: ) ( :
(and his wives are their mothers.) i.e in terms of Hurmah, and in terms of honor, respect and veneration, it is not permissible for
them to be alone with them, and the prohibition of marriage to them does not extend to their daughters and sisters, according to
scholarly consensus.
Tafseer Ibn Kathir, Vol. 6, p. 380
3. Tafseer Fathul Qadeer:
:

(And his wives are their mothers) means: they are like their mothers in the ruling of prohibition of marriage, and they share the
station of deserving treatment of grandeur, so it is not permissible for anyone to marry anyone of them, just like it is
impermissible for them to marry their mothers. Thus this motherhood is about forbidding marriage with them and about
respecting/venerating them.
4. Tafseer al Baidhawi:

And his wives are their mothers means they share the station of prohibition in marriage and deserving treatment of grandeur.
Tafseer al-Baidhawi, Vol. 1, p. 364
5. Tafseer Rooh ul Maani:

And his wives are their mothers means they share the station of mothers in the prohibition of marriage and the deservement of
respect.
Tafseer Rooh al Maani, Vol. 21, p. 151
6. Tafseer al-Lubaab:

And his wives are their mothers means they are like mothers to them (i.e the believers) and he (i.e the Prophet peace be upon
him) is their father and they are the mothers of the believers in deserving respect and honor and prohibition of marriage with
them.
Tafseer al-Lubaab, Vol. 13, p. 52

Haider Ali Now lets read the Shia Tafaseer.
Shia Tafaseer
1. Tafseer al-Meezan:
) ( :
(and his wives are their mothers). This is the Sharia ruling i.e. his wives are to the men like their mothers, and by necessi ty they
(i.e the wives of the Prophet) have to be honored and are not allowed to be taken as wives after Prophet(saw).
Tafsir al Meezan, Vol. 16, p. 288
2. Tafseer al-Safi:

(And his wives are their mothers) means they share the station of prohibition in marriage and deserving treatment of grandeur.
Tafsir Safi , Volume 4, p. 168
3. Tafseer Namoona:
(( :)) (( ))
(( : ))

)
(
.
A question arises here that isnt the explanation of the verse (and his wives are their mothers) against the verses mentioned
before. Because there it is mentioned Those who declare their wives as their mothers, and in fact they use false words, thei r
mothers are only the ones who bore them. In this situation, how can the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) be
considered the mothers of the believers. This point should be noted in answering the question at hand that addressing a woman
as mother is either due to biological relation, or spiritual relation. This meaning could be only in the case of biological relation,
and this is the same thing which is mentioned in the earlier verses, that a persons biological mother is only the one who bore
him. But the spiritual mother and father are those who have a kind of special right over them, as the Prophet (peace be upon
him) is considered the spiritual father of the nation, and due to him, his wives hold the respect which a mother holds.
Tafsir Namoona, Vol. 17, p. 180
4. Tafseer Noor al-Thaqalayn:
) ( ) ( ) ( :
) ( :) (

It is narrated from Imam Qaim that he was asked about the right of divorce, That the Messenger of Allah (s) left it at the
discretion of Amirul Momineen (i.e Ali)? He replied: The Almighty Allah, hallowed be His name, gave an exalted status to the
wives of the Prophet and gave them the honor of being the mothers of the faithful. Thus the Messenger of Allah (s) told Amirul
Momineen : O Abal Hasan, this status is valid for them till they remain in the obedience of the Almighty Allah. So whoever of
them disobeys Allah and after that me, comes out in armed confrontation against you, remove her from my wife-hood and take
away her status of motherhood of faithful.
Tafsir Nur al thaqalayn, Vol. 5, p. 372

The 12th Imam of Shias was right in saying that Allah gave an exalted status to the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him)
when he declared them the mothers of the believers. But he was wrong when he said that the status was taken away from
Ayesha, for the first Imam Ali said, as is mentioned in Nahjul Balagha after the battle of Jamal

She has the same respect afterwards as she had earlier, and the accountability is on Allah to take.
Nahjul balagha, p. 335

We have proven from the books of Sunnis and Shias that the verse of Holy Quran 33:6 not only proves the veneration of the
status of the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him), but we have also proven from the authentic books of Shias that Ayesha
(may Allah be pleased with her) specifically held this status of respect even after the battle of Jamal. It is upto the Shias
whether they accept the truth or stick to the ignorance.

Haider Ali You Said: Rasulullah s.a.aw wants to emphasise the status and honor of the family of Fatima sa. as per the verse.

RESPONSE: Emphasize before whom? Before Allah or believers? If you say believers then, this wouldnt have been done
inside a home, where only his wife or servant present. This shows that your excuse is not rational. And if the purpose was to
emphasize the status and honor, then a declaration addressing people would have been made. Not a dua inside house.

You Said: The sunni brothers should answer this question too.

If the purification was for the wives, why then are others included? W
RESPONSE: Others are included because Prophet(saw) wanted them to be included , that is why he made the dua for them.
Simple.

You said: The only way out is IF we follow the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w where he mention the verse of tatheer on its own
and did not include the wives. Our sunni brothers should not discard the tafseer of Rasulullah s.a.a.w for their own tafseer or
worse an atheist..
RESPONSE: I say, Improve your understanding and communication skills, if you are mature. RasoolAllah(saw) didnt make any
tafseer for this which we are discarding, we are affirming what Prophet(saw) did, So stop making these false accusations on us.
We affirm what Prophet(saw) did, but what He(saw) in no way shows that the verse was not revealed for wives of Prophet(saw).
Prophet(saw) no where said , this verse is revealed for these people only, nor said this to people. He was directing his
supplication to Allah, thats it. And if you need explicit tafseer about the reason of its revelation then its by Ibn Abbas(ra) who
was blessed with understanding of Quran due to supplication of , and he said that, this was revealed for wives of Prophet(saw).

Bushra Mahjabeen Noor U made it very clear hyder ali


There is no true muslim who would believe that anyone deserves disrespect and abuse what more the wives of Rasulullah
s.a.a.w.

But this is not the crux of the issue.

The issue here is that a school of thought consider that the wives are being honored for merely being wives and are beyond
criticism. Such that IF history tells us that a wife of the prophet s.a.a.w commited murder, the response would be that we cannot
criticise her because she is the wife of the prophet s.a.a.w.

While another school of thought clarifies, that the wives are to be respected because this is an honour bestowed upon
Rasulullah s.a.a.w.

There is no problem in respecting the wives of Rasulullah s.a.a.w or even any sinner after they had commited any sin. This is
because sinners are humans too.

This is the beautiful teaching of Islam that Nabi Musa a.s. was told even to speak gently to Firaun.

However, does Islam then tell us to respect the sin? Does Islam tell us that criticism is not allowed? Does Islam teaches us to
close one eye towards sinful behavior from someone if he or she has a rank of mother or father?

You missed the point totally my dear brother in Islam.

My point was that the title Mother of Believers which entitled them to a form of respect(in terms of remarrying)was an honour
bestowed upon Rasulullah s.a.a.w and not due to any merit of their own. The title mother of the believers does not come with
special immunity from sin or hellfire,

The context was with regards to the prohibition of remarrying. This was mentioned in the sunni tafseer as well.

Otherwise, Allah s.w.t clearly say
O wives of the Prophet! If any of you were to become guilty of manifestly immoral conduct, double [that of other sinners] would
be her suffering [in the hereafter]: for that is indeed easy for God

"And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We
have prepared for her an honorable sustenance."
Quran [33:30-31]
May 6 at 11:42pm Edited Like


Your objection with regards to Rasulullah s.a.a.w making it clear was that he should have emphasised it repeatedly in public.

And yes, he did.

He pointed to the house of Fatima s.a. and did that in public.

He s.a.a.w mention the verse of tatheer many times. And every single narration tells us that he did not include the preceding or
after verse where wives were mentioned.

This is amazing. Mashaallah.

Why would Rasulullah s.a.a.w do that?

If the verse was one whole verse, why did he not narrate the whole Quranic verse?

And this bring to us the question. Whose house exactly is being mentioned in ayat tatheer?

Yusuf Best The Messenger of Allah recited the following verse: In houses which Allah has ordered to be raised, in them His
Name is remembered. A man approached him and asked him, Which houses are they O Messenger of Allah? He replied,
The houses of the Prophets. So Abu Bakr asked him while pointing to the house of Ali and Fatima: Is this house included
amongst those houses? The Messenger of Allah replied: Yes, it is the best amongst them!(Ad-Dur Al-manthur 6:203, Ruhul
Maani 18:174)

Haider Ali You Said: My point was that the title Mother of Believers which entitled them to a form of respect(in terms of
remarrying)was an honour bestowed upon Rasulullah s.a.a.w and not due to any merit of their own. The title mother of the
believers does not come with special immunity from sin or hellfire,

RESPONSE: My friend, you have gained half knowledge regarding this issue, and you have misunderstood what type of honour
the wives of Prophet(saw) received by being termed as Mother of believers. And as it clearly mentioned in the tafseers I
presented, the honour was for wives of Prophet(saw). Now, the half knowledge which you arent aware of is , why were wives of
Prophet(saw) prohibited to remarry after Prophet(Saw)? In what way is this an honor for them, the answer is present in the
follow ahadeeth.

:

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: 'I asked Allah that I marry none of my people but she be with me i n the Heaven and I was
granted.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 4650. Hakim termed it as Sahih)

And as they were to be the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) both here and hereafter so the wives of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were
not allowed to marry any other person. This is the special honour for them.
This narration of al-Bayhaqi which is authentic according to al-Albani, says that the only reason we aren't allowed to marry the
wives of the prophet (saw) is because they're supposed to be his wives in HEAVEN, the wife remains with her last husband:

Now is your half knowledge complete , this is the honour they received, that is being wife of Prophet(saw) even in Heaven, and
if you need a specific hadeeth for Ayesha(as) being wife of Prophet(saw) in heaven, then be my guest.
May 7 at 12:41am Like

Haider Ali Yusuf Best You said: And yes, he did. He pointed to the house of Fatima s.a. and did that in public.
RESPONSE: I know where you are refering, but sorry to disappoint you all is routes are weak. Yet regardless of its authentici ty,
it isnt the answer to my question, because again in that report, public were not ADDRESSED, RATHER AGAIN THE
ADDRESSEE were Ahlekisa, if as you believe it was a kind of declaration, then why wouldnt just make a clear statement and
address people, directly, Prophet(saw) was always clear and direct in his speech when he would make a declaration and this is
how the style of ambiya is, they cant keep things unclear and expect people to understand things from their own. That is why
the hadeeth you are referring is easily interpreted as a reminder to people of Kisa, and Prophet(saw) would call salah, along
with it, indicating that the condition to their purification was Salah. There is no other reason he would remind them of Salah,
because they obviously would read Salah. Because saying Salah before this before, indicates that it was the condition for their
purification.

YOU SAID: If the verse was one whole verse, why did he not narrate the whole Quranic verse?

RESPONSE: It is because, the initial part of verse had certain condition or commands for purification which were in particular
for wives of Prophet(saw), and those conditions werent and couldnt be applicable to Ahle Kisa, Thats why the initial portion of
verse or the whole verse was not recited.
All these questions have been answered on youpuncuredtheark.com so its better you read the answers and save everyones
time.

Haider Ali Yusuf Best YOU SAID: The Messenger of Allah recited the following verse: In houses which Allah has ordered to be
raised, in them His Name is remembered. A man approached him and asked him, Which houses are they O Messenger of
Allah? He replied, The houses of the Prophets. So Abu Bakr asked him while pointing to the house of Ali and Fatima: Is this
house included amongst those houses? The Messenger of Allah replied: Yes, it is the best amongst them!(Ad-Dur Al-manthur
6:203, Ruhul Maani 18:174)

RESPONSE: Regardless of the authenticity of this report, (BECAUSE you may not know, but scholars of tafsir quote, all sort of
reports which are related to a verse, and suggest the most stronger one, but not all become true), this report doesnt excludes
the other houses of Prophet(saw), which were of his wives. Even those are included in it. So again you wasted time bring this
up, just may be to help yourself in the going.
One verse is sufficient for this hadeeth, which is regarding remembrance of Allah:
And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted
[with all things].(33:34)
Guess who are addressed in this verse, its the wives of Prophet(Saw)?


The matter has been covered completely above and there is no need to add any new things to the discussion .
I just would like to respond to a contradiction in one of the points that you raised.

You mentioned that the initial part of the verse contain conditions for purification, and it is pertaining for the wives and is not
applicable to ahli kisa.

YET, you believe that the purification portion can be applicable for the ahli kisa.

Is this not a CLEAR contradiction?

How can the purification comes with conditions yet the ahli kisa are purified without the conditions?

Is that logic possible?

Again, the problem with your theory is that u can never find the asbabun nuzul of the verse of tatheer where the first portion of
the wives are mentioned. It simply does not exist because the ayat tatheer was never revealed for the wives.

Lastly, I would like to address the issue of the wives being exalted JUST because they are wives.

You even include a sunni hadith where wives are guaranteed a place in heaven just because of marriage.

Fair enough, since the verse is sahih according to your standards, whatever that is, you may accept it but it is not hujjah on us.

However, do know that the Quran does not have this principle.

The Quran says that wives of Rasulullah s.a.a.w are to be punished doubled if they commit a sin and two wives were threaten
with divorce and being replaced with better ones.

Lastly, I would also like to highlight an important point that u may have missed. Wives of Rasulullah s.a.a.w are called mother of
believers.

IF we are to take that as a exalted spiritual position, then why did Rasulullah s.a.a.w called Fatima s.a. the chief of the women
of the worlds?

She is the head even over mothers of believers?

THINK.

AbdulKhaliq S. Saripada The guarantee that verses 33:30 to 33:34 is revealed solely for the wives of the prophet pbuh this
also proves further that the alleged hadith for the ahl al kissa happens at the residence of the one of the prophet's wife therefore
proves that these verses of purification were actually intended for the wives of the prophet pbuh.


Haider Ali Vs Yusuf Best Dialogue On Ahlul Bayt

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Haider Ali Prophet(Saw) called wives as Ahlelbayt. And what abt your 9 Imams aren't they Ahlelbayt?

You didn't include them

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