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<=>> 5?@@?AB ?B 9C@D9
Ramit Sethi: Hi, everybody. This is Ramit Sethi
from I Will Teach You to Be Rich and Earn 1k.
Today Im thrilled to have my friend, Derek Siv-
ersa very illustrious guy. Id like to tell you a little
bit about him. Derek Sivers founded CD Baby, the
largest seller of independent music on the Web,
and drove it over $100 million in sales, and for
selling it to focus on helping musicians. Esquire
Magazine said: Derek Sivers is changing the way
music is bought and solda musicians savior;
one of the last music business folk heroes. And
Im delighted to have him here on the call with us.
Welcome, Derek.
Derek Sivers: On the Internet no one can see you
blush.
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Derek, I want to just talk
about the rst time we actually met, because I
thought it was pretty illustrative of just your per-
sonality. We got introduced by somebody, I dont
even remember who it was, and I got your phone
number and I was just texting you because I had
just gotten to New York, and I was saying; hey,
why dont we meet up and we can grab cofee,
or something; and you actually said: hey, are you
hungry? If so we can eat. Otherwise why dont you
just come up to my place and we can have tea.
And so, for the rst time I met you I actually went
up to your apartment; and I thought it was a pretty
intimate gesture, actually, because in this day and
age, people dont usually invite other people up
to their apartments. So that was the rst time I met
you, and I thought it was just a very nice gesture
that you made.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS] You know whatit was
actually very practical, both when I was living in
L.A. and when I moved to New Yorkin both plac-
es I had a really nice place. Like Im quite a mini-
malist, I dont own a lot of stuf, but I really like to
live in a place that makes me happy. So the funny
thing is, I was living in a great place, and I would
often meet people out at Starbucks or something.
And then I thought: what am I doing. Like the
reason you kind of splurge on a place that you
love, is because you love it, so why not just have
people over. Ive got the best cofeehouse in the
world, right here, at home. So cook, Im glad you
liked that. Now youre living there, the same place
I invited you to,; and thats where you live now.
Ramit Sethi: Exactly! No, I couldnt resist, it was
such a nice place. The other thing, by the way,
that I noticed which I loved was, on your table you
didnt have too much except you had old journal
issues ofI believe it was the Journal of Social
Psychologyis that correct?
Derek Sivers: YeahI think it might be called Psy-
chological Science, but yes, something like at.
Ramit Sethi: And you told me that after you sold
your company, which we will get to in a second.
That you just realized you loved the stuf and you
wanted to stay up-to-date, so you may be the only
non-academic I know who actually subscribe to
that journal and got it delivered every month.
Derek Sivers: Yeah, I loved it, and it was damn
expensive too, it was like $295, I think for a one-
year subscription, but it was like: uh, if I come
up with even just a few great ideas from this its
worth it, and it wasit was wonderful.
Ramit Sethi: Yes, so you and I share a love of both
understanding social psychology and also under-
standing human behavior, and we apply it in very
diferent ways, but today I thought it would be
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fascinating to kind of go through four or ve major
areas. And the rst one that I wanted to ask you
about is your CD Baby story. Its one of the most
interesting stories of business anywhere online,
and particularly of music. So I wonder if you can
walk us back to 1998 and tell us the story of what
CD Baby was and what it became.
Derek Sivers: Sure. Well a little context rst, that
last time I had a job was 1992, so I was already
a fulltime musician, and I decided at 14 years old
that I want to be a musician and that was just all I
wanted to do. So even as I had a job for just two
years from 1990 to 1992, that was just what mu-
sicians call a day job it was a thing I had to do
to pay the rent while I was really working on my
music.
And in 1992 I had saved up enough money and
had enough musical income to quit my last job. So
I was making a fulltime living as a musician, and I
put out my own CD in 1996, and 1997 I had sold
about 1,500 copies of it just of the stage. And I
was trying to get it up and selling online, even
though most people didnt do this at that time.
Amazon was still just a bookstore, the only big
online music stores at the time were CD Now, Mu-
sic Boulevard and Tunes.Com and I loved the fact
that they are all gone now. [LAUGHS]
So I wanted to get it selling online, so I called
up each of those three companies and said: Hi,
I would like to sell my CD with you, Ive already
sold 1,500 copies on my own. I know there are
people around the world that want to buy it, so
how do I get it selling with you? And they all said:
who is your distributor. And I said: I dont have a
distributor, cant I just send you a box of CDs and
you sell it and pay me? And they just said: sorry,
kid, it doesnt work that way. Look, our website is
really just a front-end to the major distributors, so
the only way to get into our website is basically to
go get a record deal, and get into the major labels
distribution and that will get you on our website.
And I said: well, cant I just be my own distributor?
How about I just makeup a company name and Ill
be a distributor that you sign up into your system?
And they said: no, it doesnt work that way.
And I thought: damn, you know, how hard can it
be? I mean, its a credit card merchant account
and a shopping cartand damn it. So I thought
fuck it, Ill do it myself. [LAUGHS] So youve got
to understand the context thoughin 1997 when
I was doing this PayPal didnt exist yet. Amazon
was just a bookstore, and there was not a single
business anywhere on the Internet that would sell
your music if you were an independent musician
without a record deal.
So, I went to go get a credit card merchant ac-
count, and back then it was hard. It was like
$1,000 in set up fees. They actually had to send
an inspector to my location, and made me incor-
porate, set up a separate bank account. It was
about three months of paperwork.
But after three months of hard work I had a credit
card merchant account and then I had to gure
out how to build a shopping cart. Which, again, its
easier these days, but back then you had to buy a
book and copy down some CGI-BIN, Perl Scripts,
and a lot of work to get a shopping cart work. So,
again, its like after three months of hard work, I
had it. I had a Buy Now button on my website. I
was so proud and it was so cool, like I told some
of my friends around New York and most of my
musician friends said the thing.
It was like: hey, could you sell my CD through that
thing. And I went: oh, yes, I guess sosure. So
what I did was just literally on my bands website I
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had a little section which was like a big: Click here
to buy my CD. And then below it, it said: Or, some
of my friends.
Ramit Sethi: Nice.
Derek Sivers: And it had a little picture feature
there, and pretty soon, I started getting calls from
strangers saying: hey, man, my friend, Dave, said
you could sell my CD. And Im like: Yeah, sure
heres my address, send it on in and Ill take care
of it. And I was doing this as a favor to friends
right.
So after a few months I realized that this was start-
ing to take over my life, and Id better start charg-
ing some money to do this. I think Ive accidentally
started a little business. But you have to under-
stand this context, that I was living the musicians
dream. In fact, I was living in Woodstock, New
York at the time. I bought a house with the money
I made touring and producing peoples records
and playing on peoples records. Like, I was living
the musicians dream, so the last thing I wanted
was for some business to distract me from that
dreamright?
Ramit Sethi: Mm-hmm.
Derek Sivers: So all of this was done really reluc-
tantly. It was like a hobby. I wasnt trying to make
money, and you will see that this will, of course,
play later into the story, but there was just one key
night when I realized thatokay, like it or not Ive
accidentally started a business. I mean, people
are contacting me every day wanting me to sell
their CD. So what am going to do?
I thoughtokay, well if this is going to be a busi-
ness anyway, I really want to make it like a utopian
kind of musicians dream come true scenario, be-
cause I dont think that will make a lot of money,
and I dont think it will work out really well, but at
least it will make me happy.
So what is my musicians dream-come-true sce-
nario? Its like: number one-as a musician I would
want to be paid every week. Number twoI
wanted to know the full name and address of
everybody who buys our music. Number three
youd never kick me out of the system for not
selling enough, and number fourthere would
never be any paid placement, because I hated in
those situations where like, the big boys with the
deep pockets get to, like, buy up all the front page
space and those of us without...you know, its
never fair those who cant aford it.
So that was like my very utopian idealistic idea of
what I was doing here, and honestly, the reason
I tell you that is because Im really proud. Like
those same [few 08:44] musicians really just fu-
eled the entire company and stayed all the way to
the end, like stayed through to its original mission.
So anywayI started this thing, and for the rst
year it was me in my living room in Woodstock,
doing this in my spare time. Then I was doing it
in my fulltime, and then after a whole year I hired
one person to help me, and after a whole other
year I hired a second person, so it was growing
really, really slowly. You know, sometimes I think
a lot of people these days, they start a company
and they are upset if it isnt going gangbusters
by month-three or something. But youve got to
understand, like I was just doing it for two years. I
had no investors, I started it with 500 bucks, just
did everything myself, it didnt cost any money.
And it really wasnt until like four years into it that
it really started taking of around 2002, thats
when I had about eight employees and then 20,
and 30 and 50 and then it just kind of ran out of
control. And still the whole time I was just doing
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
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?
what I originally set out to do, it was selling the al-
bums of independent musicians, kind of in the last
few years out of that, after the ITunes Music Store
launched, we became a digital distributor, kind of
distributing music to Apple, iTunes and the rest,
and then selling [to industries 9:52] but really just
stayed true to its original mission.
And I dont knowdo you want me to the end of
my CD Baby story?
Ramit Sethi: Yes, lets get to the meat. Tell us what
happened.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS] Okay, well everything
was just cruising along and a lot of your readers
are money focused, so whats interesting, that I try
to explain to friendsis this weird, surreal situa-
tion of becoming rich. That I didnt set out to do
that, but I was really just doing what I loved. I was
just focusing on CD Baby, I absolutely loved doing
it. I loved helping musicians, building the system,
constantly working on it, like just trying to gure
out how to make the store better, more efective,
how to call more attention to my friends music.
And by this time we had like 200,000 musicians
using the system, and two million customers buy-
ing music.
Ramit Sethi: Wow!
Derek Sivers: But what was interesting is like, I
really wasnt focused on the money. In fact, here
theres a story Ive got to tell you.
Ten years ago I was in Las Vegas for a confer-
ence, and took a taxi to my hotel, and I was just
chatting with the cab driver, and I said: so, how
long have you been here. And he said: Ive been
here since 1976. And is aid: wow, I bet the place
has changed a lot since then, uh? And he said:
yeahand I miss mob.
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS]
Derek Sivers: I said: what! He said; I miss the
mob; and I said: okay, why? And he said: you
know when the mob was around this town, it was
fun. He said: there were only two numbers that
matteredhow much money is coming in and
how much is going out, and as long as more was
coming in than going out, everybody is happy.
He said: now, the goddamn multinational cor-
porations come in and they try to maximize the
protability of every square foot of oor space,
and now the hot dog stand charges me an extra
20 cents for ketchup, and now every square foot
of oor space in this entire city is maximized for
prot. It sucked all the fun out of this town.
And I really took his point to heart, because there
are so many ways, when youre running your busi-
ness you can try to absolutely maximize every bit
of protability out of your business, or you can just
kind of relax a bit and remember like whats the
real point that youre doing this.
So often people would come to us and kind of
say: where is your terms of conditions, where is
your privacy policy, where is your legalize on the
website. And Im like: I dont have it and I dont
want it. And theyre like: what if somebody sues
you some day? Im like: well, they haventso Im
ne.
Ramit Sethi: Yes.
Derek Sivers: And then people would me like:
whats your ofcial policy on this. And I started
telling my employees like: look, this place has all
of the formality of Dougs and Bobs Tackle Shop
in Key West. Like, just think along those terms.
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Like things dont need to be hyper-efcient and
maximized, and Im not trying to get rich.
So anyway, with that saidas I was just doing
this and doing what I love, I would just look at the
bank every now and then. Like I really had this
like the taxi driver said, I just had this mentality,
like I really didnt pay that attention to the money,
but the numbers just kept going up. And one day
I noticed that my bank accountor I should say
ratherlike the companys bank account, but I
was the sole owner. The company bank account
had $100,000. And then one day it had $200,000
then I noticed it had $300,000 and then it hit
$500,000 and then it hit one million, and then it
was like $1.5 million then it hit $2 millionit was
just so surreal, and it really didnt change anything
about my life. I got a little comfortable sense of
knowing that Id be ne no matter what.
So like even if all of my customers went away
tomorrow for the rest of my life I knew that, like,
I had enough money in the bank, that I would be
okay and wouldnt be desperate. But other than
that it didnt change anything in my life. Its not
like I bought something that I didnt want before
because there was a good reason I didnt want it
before, you knowwhy want it now.
So anyway, lets just now go to the end. Then
around...after I had been doing it for ten years,
I had just recently rewritten a software from the
ground up, and it worked, and it was beautifulit
was, honestly, one of my proudest accomplish-
ments to date. Like a rewritten version of CD Baby
I did in 2007. It was kind of the culmination of
everything I had ever learned about programming
and marketing and site design. It was perfect and I
was so proud of it. We had a great Christmas sea-
son, and then at the beginning of 2008 I just real-
ized I was done. It really kind of felt like the way
that aI dont knowa painter or a sculptor feels
when youve nished an artwork and you have the
nal brushstroke and you look at it, and you step
back and you goYeah, thats it! Im donethats
everything I ever wanted to do. I had no future vi-
sion about it anymore.
Ramit Sethi: So what did you do?
Derek Sivers: So, although I had vowed that I
would never sell the company, and I really meant
it for the ten years that I said it, all of a sudden I
was realizing, well, if Im done, then that means
Im actually doing a disservice to my customers
by staying at the helm because Im anti-ambitious
about it at this point, I would actually rather it be
smaller not bigger.
So I decided I was doing clients a disservice
because they wanted their careers to grow not
shrink, so I decided to sell it, and it was just coin-
cidental actuallylike about the time when I was
feeling done, I got three phone calls in one week
from three diferent companies ofering to buy CD
Baby, but I had actually been receiving these calls
all along for ten years. And so for ten years I had
been telling them no, and so this one week where
I got three calls in one week I told them all no. But
that weekend I kind of stopped to think, liketake
a hint. Im feeling done; three people are willing to
buy it in one week.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: I think this is whats called a sellers
market, and I should just take a hint and go for
it, and I had to do a lot of soul searching to real-
ize like: am I really, truly done with thisand the
answer is, yes. So I sold it.
Ramit Sethi: And you sold it for a pretty good
amount. I dont know how comfortable you are
revealing whatever the ballpark was...
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Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS] Well Ill tell youyou
know I was never ever going to tell anybody, and
then one friend asked me once a few years ago
and I answered him and I thought it was conden-
tial, and then he went and [blogged/blabbed 16:14]
about it, so...
Ramit Sethi: Wow!
Derek Sivers: So its public, so anybody can nd
out now, so I just decided to...oh, well, so yes, I
sold it for $22 million U.S. and I was the sole own-
er and it was an all-cash deal so, yeah, I got out.
Ramit Sethi: Terric! Now you told us how your
life changed after $100,000 and $200,000 it
wasnt much. How have things changed after $22
million?
Derek Sivers: Not at all. Its really...I think once I
hit that point, maybe it really was like this change
around 100,000 bucks, where its like Im not
broke anymore, I can aford what I want to do, but
then you really have to get philosophical like
dont make yourself want things that you didnt
want before just because you can want them now.
Like youve got to, kind of...if you dont cure insa-
tiability, you will never be happy.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: So I never fell into that trap of insa-
tiability, so Im still just, you know, in this little one
bedroom apartment with no stuf in it, its what
makes me happy, so still just living the same life
but its justits just nice to know theres a safety
net, I guess thats the only diference. And that
was, you knowthat safety net, I was feeling that
after a couple hundred thousand, and at twenty
million it doesnt make any diference.
Ramit Sethi: You know its funny; I get this ques-
tion a lot, especially when Im talking to the media
and they goare you rich? Like very antagonisti-
cally...
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: And so of course I would test re-
sponses, because I love testing everything. And
so I tested: well, rich is not...just a number, but
their eyes kind of glaze over. So I started going:
yes. And what happened was they would actually
be startled, and almost step backwards, and then
I would say: notice how that conversation just kind
of ended, because rich isnt really just a number.
For example, is having a million dollars the same
in Kansas as it is in Manhattan? Or is it the same
at age 28 versus 58? Its very diferent, so I think
we both have come to understand that rich is not
about some number. And in fact, the journey is
also about what are your values. And if you love,
as you said, living in a nice place, you can do that.
But its not really about some number. Its not a
nality of the numberthats what Ive found at
least.
Derek Sivers: That is so well put, and youre right.
What feels rich to me at 28, it might...for example,
my lawyer who is actually more of a friend than
a lawyer at this point, he has been kind of living
high for 20 years, and so when I mentioned the
number to him he said: honestly, thats not that
much money. [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS]
Derek Sivers: Because in his lifeits like he
pictures a life where life costs one to two million
dollars a yearthats his life, and so for him, 20
million, well that will last a decade, but then what?
Ramit Sethi: I love that.
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Derek Sivers: So to me, I make a life that costs
$100,000 a year, and then its innite because Im
living on less than the interest is generating. So
thats my general rule with the money, is like I just
dont touch the principal, I just live of the interest
for life now.
Ramit Sethi: I love that. After you had this success
and after you lived in New York for a while, which
I know you wanted to donow youve basically
taken upon and you started traveling the world,
which I thought was a really cool thing to do. Just
like, I can do this now and Im going to do it.
Derek Sivers: Thanks. Yeah, that was something
Ive been wanting to do anyway. You know, its
funny, all along in this kind of 20-year journey and
ever since I got out of high school, I guess, Ive
always been making every decision with the com-
pass...with freedom as the compass.
Ramit Sethi: Hmm?
Derek Sivers: Its which decision would give me
more freedom? So thats why I dont own many
things, its because everything you own is kind of
one little weight thats restricting your freedom.
And so I made this kind of laptop life for myself,
where I didnt have to be at the ofce, and made
sure that my business was set up in such a way
that I could be anywhere and all this kind of stuf.
Whats funny is around 2007 or so; I hit this point
where I was absolutely, totally, completely free.
Like my business didnt even need me anymore,
they didnt even know where I was livingthey
didnt even know what country I was in, and I real-
ized like every morning I would wake up with this
feeling of like: wowtoday I could do anything
and I dont have to do anything.
Ramit Sethi: Mm-hmm.
Derek Sivers: And I could be anywhere and I
dont have to be anywhere. Its almost too much
freedom, that we are not used to like that much of
a blank slate every day of your life. We are used
to living within certain restrictions, so yeah. But
anywayso around that time I just decided like: I
was born in California, Ive lived my whole life in
the U.S. its a big world out there, and I dont to
just go visit and snap a picture and come back to
California, I want to live in that world, and really
immerse myself and understand, like living with
this grand plan of understanding the worldlike I
want to know what it is to live in China and speak
Mandarin, at least conversationally, and really get
to...you know, where my circle of friends were
all born and raised there, and I really started to
understand what its like to grow up in China, and
live there long enoughto the point where I get it
and it feels comfortable, and it feels like home.
And then once that happens, then go somewhere
else. Then you go to Brazil, and you learn Portu-
guese, and you surround yourself with all your
friends who are from Brazil, and you really start
to understand what its like to be born and raised
and grow up in Brazil, and you understand that
mindset, and you live there long enough until it
feels really comfortable, and it feels like home.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: And then you move to Berlin and
you do it again.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah!
Derek Sivers: You know, its like I just have this
vision of life that when Im 90 years old, 100 or
something, I want to be looking at the globe and
there will be no part of it that feels too foreign, like
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C
it all feels...like Ive seen...like I know people from
every corner. Which gets you very, kind of, anti-
territorial, and anti-patriotic, you know. Theres a
funny thing, that the ones who shout: my country
is number onethe loudest, are the people who
have never left.
Ramit Sethi: Mm-hmm! So lets talk about how you
do that.
Derek Sivers: Okay, yes.
Ramit Sethi: So weve got...I have four major
things I want to ask you about, and the rst one is
not about tricks on how to do it, its actually quite
the contrary, because you and I both have a love
for working harder than anyone else, but working
on the right things to get disproportionate results.
So, I Will Teach You to Be Rich readers, I call this
hustling, in a positive sense of the word. But Ill
just give you an example, where you think about
anyone who really studied hard for their SATs or
their GMATs or whatever. I mean, some people
put in hundreds of hours, and maybe they get a
terric score.
Five years later they look back, they dont remem-
ber how hard they studied but theyre still getting
residuals from really crushing that test and get-
ting into the best schools or whatever it may be.
The same thing is true of working hard to get into
a great job, or even working hard to nd...being
open enough to nd a great partner, or whatever
it may be.
I want to ask you about a story I read of yours
about Kimo Williams and you have this line, its
actually in a diferent part of your site, where you
say: you dont get extreme results without ex-
treme work. I wonder if you could talk about that.
Derek Sivers: Sure, yes. Part of the reason at the
beginning of this call, that I kind of took longer
than usual to kind of tell you some background
context things about me, is because I knew we
were going to talk about these things. So at 14
when I decided I wanted to be a musician for life,
knowing that you want to be a musician isunder-
standing your life is going to be hard. You know,
deciding you want to be a musician means: Im
never going to have insurance, Im never going
to have a job, Im never going to have a steady
income. Every dollar for the rest of my life, Im go-
ing to have to ght hard for, and Im ghting for a
dream that a million people want and only a few
get, so Im going to have to work as hard as an
Olympic athlete works to win a gold medal.
That was just my outlook on life at 14, so I just
became...I found what I loved, like I had found my
calling and I just threw myself into it completely.
So in college, for example, I went to Berklee
School of Music, and my nickname in school was
The Robot, because nobody ever saw me sleep
or drink or relax or party. I would wake up at 6:00
a.m. and I would go running and I would practice
all day and Id write and Id be in the practice
rooms, and even at meal times, everybody else
would like hang out in the cafeteria for a couple
hours. I would dash throughslap together a
peanut butter sandwich and head straight to the
practice rooms.
And everybody would head to bed at midnight,
and Id be up until 2:00 a.m. practicing and Id
sleep for four hours and do it again. That was my
college experience.
But Kimo Williams, the guy that you mentioned,
was a real turning point in my life because I have
this passion already but I didnt have a role model
who had set my expectations high enough, really.
Like I still kind of thought that maybe Id spend
my life being a music teacher or something. Like
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
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I though that...I knew I wanted to be in music, but
I didnt...I dont know, he just kind of set a new
model for me.
Let me explain what happened. He was a music
teacher in Chicago that I met just a couple months
before I left to go to Berklee School of Music,
and when I told him I was going he said: Berklee
School of Music, eh. He said: wellwhy dont
you come by my studio. He said: I used t teach at
Berklee, I think I can show you a few things.
Ramit Sethi: Right.
Derek Sivers: So I went to his studio and he said:
look, heres the deal Berkelee School of Music,
like most colleges, it moves at the pace of the
lowest common denominator. They have to make
sure that every student in the class understands,
so therefore they go at the pace of the slowest
student...
Ramit Sethi: Ahinteresting!
Derek Sivers: He said, if youre bright, like you
are, and if youre driven, like you areyou can
graduate college in two years. You dont have
to accept the standard pace. And in fact he said
another line that really stuck with me. He said: the
standard pace is for chumps. Thats like, whenev-
er you hear somebody telling you this is how long
it takes to get a degree, this is how long it takes to
be an accredited counselor, whatever it is youre
setting out to do in life, thats the standard pace
theyre telling you, and thats for chumps, thats
like for the lowest common denominator.
If you know what you want, like what you call the
hustle, you can go for it, and not even by cheat-
ing. You canjust by not accepting the standard
pace that youre given, you can nd a way to do it
faster. So here I am at 17 years old and this guy is
telling me: I think you can graduate college in two
years and here is how. And what he did; he said:
okay, sit down at the piano, open up his book.
And he gave me this intensive music harmony les-
son.
He was likeokay, whats a major scale, how is
built. Okay, this and thatso play for me in C-
major scale; now if you build a scale; if you build
a triaddo you know what a triad is? Okay, good,
you build a triad starting on the E, whats that
called? If you built it of the B whats that called.
Okay, this, now if you were to place this note with
that note, whats that called? Come on, come on,
you can do thisgo!
And it was like that kind of pace, you know, it was
a little bit like that scene in The Matrix where
whats his nameMorpheus is showing Neo how
to ght in that assimilated karate thing. Come on,
you can do this! He said: let go of those limita-
tions, you can do this.
So that was my music harmony lesson, and in only
two 3-hour lessons, Kimo taught me four semes-
ters of harmony.
Ramit Sethi: Wow!
Derek Sivers: And then in two more 3-hour les-
sons, he taught me four semesters of arranging.
So by the time I went to Berklee only two months
later, I took the entrance exams and I tested out of
like 12 classes already. Like I basically just passed
the exam, and then he told me: for all those re-
quired classes that youre not to [psyched 28:32],
he said, just go to the head of the departmenthe
said: buy the books, do all the homework yourself
in your spare time and then go to the head of the
department and take the nal exam. You dont
have to attend the class, just take the nal exam.
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
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##
So I said: really? He said: yeah, trust me. So I went
there and did it. So I bought all the books for all
the classes that I was not signed up for, did all the
homework and just went there and took the nal
exam and passed. So, yes, I graduated college in
two years plus one summer semester.
Ramit Sethi: I loved that you highlighted the fact
that most organizations are built for the lowest
common denominator. I mean, and you can see
this everywhere. When you think about, some-
times by law, the way the ballots are made, or the
way that when you go into the DMV, things have
to be accessible to everyone...
Derek Sivers: Yes.
Ramit Sethi: But then when you go into compa-
nies theyor organizations like schoolsthey do
cater to the lowest common denominator. So what
you said just makes a lot of senseright. If youre
smart and youre motivated and driven, you can
sort of leapfrog others. But I guess my question
iswhy dont more people do that?
Derek Sivers: I think, you know, I might not have
if I hadnt have run into Kimo. I wouldnt have
known. It takes somebody to show you that you
can. I mean, I love whatin your bookwhat you
do. Showing people: look, just call your credit card
and say this. And they hang up the phone going:
oh, my god, I did it. I cant believe I just did that,
and its showing people that they canits crucial.
Ramit Sethi: Yes, sometimes we dont even know
the boxes that we live in...
Derek Sivers: Exactly!
Ramit Sethi: Until we see someone whos
stepped outside it. And I remember, my sister, for
example, who talked about a negotiator. She is
one of the top negotiators Ive ever met, and she
would be like...she would see these guys who
were, like, building porches and stuf, and the next
door neighbor they bought some guys in to build
a porch, and she needed some work done on the
back porch. And she would just say: Hey, can you
guys come over, would you be interested in help-
ing out a little bit and I can bake you some Indian
food... or make you some Indian food. And she
got like $1,000 worth of work done for one plate
of saag paneer.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: And Im likewhat! You could do
that. I didnt even know that. And sometimes its
seeing someone who is just taking it to the next
level, or they have sidestepped, or theyve been
taught by someone, and it makes us realize our
own self-imposed limitations.
Derek Sivers: Yeah, I mean...if you dont mind,
here, lets just throw in one other...
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: Example of thisthat once youre
in that mindset, you look at the world in a whole
new way. Like there are musicians, for example,
Ill just keep using this musician example because
its what I know bestwho kind of like bitch about
the system. Theyre like: man, radio stations suck,
they dont play any good music, its all controlled
by the corporations, man. And they will just like sit
around and bitch about it. I just imagine the typical
musician just kind of going like: whoosh, whoosh...
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS]
Derek Sivers: Yeah, manthats fuck man; its
bullshit. And theyre just sitting there bitching
about it, not doing anything. But then once you
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
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start to look at the world in this way, you think,
wellthen lets make a radio station. Or if you
dont like the radio stations, make a radio station.
If you dont like the distribution out there, make
your own distribution. I mean, even when I look
back at what I did with CD Baby, I wasnt really
looking at it through that lens at the time, but basi-
cally I was dissatised with the state of distribu-
tions, so I started a new distributor.
And there are people who...My friend, Gary
Julescheck out this storyhe was a musician in
L.A. who was dissatised with the venues. All his
friends were just bitching: man, you know all these
places you can play in L.A. they are all people
posturing, trying to get a record deal. Nobody is
just playing just to actually listen to the music any
more. And all the people that come to clubs, they
are like seensters, they just want to be seen, and
its all about how you look. And why isnt there a
venue where people can play music that people
want to hear and people who want to hear music
go there to just listen to music? Why doesnt that
exist?
So while the rest of his friends were just bitching
about it, Gary kind of was walking around Hol-
lywood and just took a very determined stroll
through all the streets in the county...central
neighborhoods of Hollywood, and he found this
one little cofee shop called Hotel Caf, and it
was just kind there in a prime location, but really
not doing anything except croissants during the
day. And they had a wonderful little area by the
window that would make a great stage, and they
were closed at night.
So he went to them and said: look , why dont you
let me run like a singer, song-writer acoustic night
here on Tuesday nights? And they said, no, no,
nothats not our thing, we are just a cofee shop.
He said: look, you dont have to do anything. Ill
provide the sound system, Ill book my friends,
Ill promote it; just let me use your space. And so
they saidokay, tentatively. And so he did it on
Tuesday nights and it got more and more popular,
and then they started doing it like every Tuesday
and Thursday; then it was seven nights a week,
there was music there and he was taking care of
everything. And now Hotel Caf is like the hottest
club in L.A. the most desirable place to play and
all that. And he made that venue exist, and I just
love that mentality.
Like if you start to feel powerful in this world, you
realize, you dont have to just stand in line and just
do what everybody else is doing, that anything
that youre dissatised about, you can change it.
Its almost liketheres this idea of the...you know
this saying: when youve been given a shitty end
of the stick in any deal. So I just gure, you can
ip the stick around. If somebody is saying like:
man all these banks are ripping me of man, banks
suck. Well, start a bank you know.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: Why not, somebody did, why not
you?
Ramit Sethi: You and I have such a similarity in
our blogs and in our whole outlook, which isyou
dont have to be a genius to change the way that
you interact with the world. In fact, there are some
small, simple tweaks you can take, and those rst
tweaks really are just designed to show you that
the world is actually way diferent than you think.
As Steve Blank said; theres a whole game going
on around you and you dont even know that its
being played. And I nd that if you can get like
those scripts, for example, in my book, those are
carefully designed to be in the rst chapter of my
book, because what happens is people pick up
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the book. It already looks like a scam. I Will Teach
You to Be Rich sounds likewho is this dude? And
then if they, if they kind of read through the rst
few pages, they say: hey, let me try this script, Ive
never seen a script like this.
And they use it, and it works, and all of a sudden
they saywhoa, I dont have to just take this bank
thats been gouging me for the last four years.
Now, number onemaybe Ill take this guys ad-
vice and read the rest of his book, so thats kind of
my own selsh purpose, because now it works for
them. But more importantly after doing all these
things, they say likewait a minuteI can actually
have a totally diferent relationship with the com-
panies that I deal with; with my friends.
In some of the stuf that weve done on I Will
Teach You to Be Rich, we tell people, just take
somebody interesting out to cofee. Its 20 bucks;
its the best 20 bucks youll ever spend. And
when people do that for the rst time its scary
and nerve wracking, and then they realize like:
wait a minute, I just learned so much form this guy
and most people...and Im sure this has been the
case with youwith me as wellmost people are
happy to give advice. They love doing it because
it makes them feel good and theyve been given
advice too.
So your whole story, the one you just told I love,
because its really about standing out from the
crowd.
Derek Sivers: Yes.
Ramit Sethi: And it doesnt take you being genius,
it just takes you of into taking some initiative.
Derek Sivers: You know, Ive got to admit that I
still kind of think this mindset was partially formed,
or mostly formed by me deciding I wanted to be
a musician. You see, there are a lot of cultures
where the big ambition in life is to get a job at a
multinational corporation. Like thats the goal of
a lot of people going to engineering school, and
whatever, is to just get some job. And with that
mindset then maybe like, tting in, is what theyve
been told will get them hired, and not red.
Ramit Sethi: Hmm!
Derek Sivers: But youve got this kind of mind-
set of being a mover and a shaker, then yeah,
the name of the game is to stand out, whatever
youre doing, so just look at what everybody else
is doing and do the opposite. Or even whatever...
Warren Bufet talks about that from an investor
point of view; but from a career point of view or
just...what is everybody else who wants what you
want doing? So nd a way to do the opposite in a
better way.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah. I look at people...I have this
thing I call the 10-year savings strategy, but its
also just a 10-year strategy, and that is: look at
people 10 years older than you, and say, do I like
who they are and what theyre doing.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: And the funny thing about usespe-
cially in Americawe love to believe that we are
diferent, that we are highly individualistic, and I
have agencybut the truth is, you know, we live in
a system, and odds are that we are like everyone
else. We have a job, we go to it, we are going to
have kids, we are going to have a house. I mean,
we are creatures of habit. And so if you look at
someone in your eld or who is doing what youre
doing, and you see what theyre doing ten years
ahead of youtheyre ten years older than you; if
its a lawyer and that lawyer is working say 60, 70
hours a week, or 80 hours a week as a partner
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chances are that you are going to be doing just
that.
Do you like that? If so, great, now you know what
to work towards. If you dont, how can you change
to do something a little diferent? I think thats very
important for people to look and realize theyre
not that diferent than others. Chances they are
going to be the same, so use that information to
inform your decisions today.
Derek Sivers: Yeah, although...let me add one
thing to that though, its not just look at the what
but the why. What I mean is, imagine four people,
two of them are doctors, two of them are lawyers.
If youre just looking at the what, you would think
that the doctors have more in common and the
lawyers have more in common with each other
than they do with the other doctor lawyer. But you
get to talk to them and you ask about the why,
and one doctor is a doctor because their mother
died of leukemia and they want to make sure that
no one dies of leukemia ever again. And the other
doctor just had kind driven it into them that you
need to be a doctor so that you can support your
family. Its about money go for it.
And then you meet the other lawyer, and one
lawyer says, if you ask why that person is a lawyer,
their family drove that into them that they need
to be a lawyer to support their family. And then
the other lawyer is a lawyer because his dad was
wrongly jailed and he is like passionate this and
wants to make sure that nobody ever has to have
that injustice again. So in way its like doctor-1 and
lawyer-4, have more in common than...
Ramit Sethi: Right!
Derek Sivers: So make sure...so Ive found that,
for example, the reason a lot of people are start-
ing their own business, are entrepreneurs or
whatever is because they want money. And thats
not my case, so if I look at somebody like Richard
Branson, for example, is a role model to me in
some ways, but his kind of insatiable appetite for
like, what makes somebody not stop when they
hit $20 million or $100 million but be driven to
make $1 billion then $10 billion then $500 billion
and still be driven that person wants something
diferent out of life than those who might just hit a
certain point where youre cool, and then focus on
reading books or somethingyou know.
Ramit Sethi: Right.
Derek Sivers: You want a diferent thing out of
life. So just make sure that when youre looking at
these people that are ten years ahead of you that
youve found people that match not just the what
that you want but also the why you want it.
Ramit Sethi: I love that. Incidentally, speaking
of books, you read a lot of books and then you
turn around and write up some of the best book
reviews that Ive read anywhere on line non your
blog www.sivers.org. Why do you do that? You
dont have to do it, why do you do it?
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS] Well, actually Ive been
doing it for years just privately, just keeping it on
my hard drive only. The idea was that being a min-
imalist type of nomadic, traveling guy, I dont want
to bring my books with me everywhere, so very
often I would read a book and go: God, that was
brilliant, that was amazing, that was wonderful.
And then Id have this fear that Im going to forget
everything I learned three years form now, and I
dont want to bring the book with me everywhere
I travel and then reread, so instead, what I started
doing is, as Im reading a book Im underlying and
circling my favorite bits, and then when Im done
with the book, and then I write down those bits
and I open up a blank text le and I type up those
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bits into a text le named with the name of the
book, so that I just have this directory on my hard
drive just called books with the text le notes of
every book Ive read for the last, I dont know
ve years at this point.
And then when Im just researching, like anytime
Im like: what was that book that mentioned that
Italian word sprezzatura what was that? Then I
can just grab sprezzaturathere it isoh, yeah,
okay. Wow, I forgot about this book, and I can
reread my notes and remind myself of my favorite
bits.
So Ive been doing that for a few years anyway,
and then I realized, I guess maybe I should share
these with people. So I put them up online. Im
always, kind of, wincing a little bit, like some day a
publisher might tell me, you know, to take it down
or something. But on the other hand, I look at my
little Amazon afliate sales and Ive generated a
lot of book sales for people.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: So maybe its all good, but I mostly
do that just for me.
Ramit Sethi: To me the reason you do that em-
bodies two things, I think, that are just powerful
for people to know. Number oneis to build a
portfolio, and I learned this from one of my men-
torsand he taught me this in college, he said:
build a portfolio and the rst thing I though was
like: Hey, Im not like an artist, I dont have a port-
folio. And he said: no, no, like the projects that
you work in class. Build a portfolio, meaning just
sketch, or glue, or whatever it is, what you were
thinking as you developed that project.
Why? Because when you go to get a job, other
people are going to walk in there and talk, theyre
going to tell how good they are, you are just going
to plop down this portfolio and saylook, Im go-
ing to show you. and that was one of the reasons
that I was the only weirdo student in my school,
that I know of, that used to take my essays I wrote
for class and post them on my website. Like I did
one about Stockholm syndrome, and this like
when Im some 20-year-old cocky kid. And all of a
sudden I get someone from Scotland saying: we
are doing a law enforcement conference and we
would like to use your research in our conference.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: And Im like this 20-year-old kid.
And Im likego for it. And by the way can you
y me out there too? And then the other thing of
building a portfolio is so importantand the other
thing is giving to others. And one of the things I
think about when it comes to expertise and get-
ting good at something isthats just a rst step.
The second step is turning around and making
that useful to other people. Otherwise whats the
point?
Derek Sivers: Yes.
Ramit Sethi: So if youre a musician you can learn
it all. But then you play, and if you are good at
building a blog, or investing, or whatever it might
be, you give that away too, because that actu-
ally encourages more people to come to you, but
more importantly they get good and I think in this
world we are looking for people who can guide
us along. So Im struck by your story, even though
its just book reviewsits not really just book
reviews.
So a couple more questions for you, Derek, one
is passion. And then we will talk about low value
and high value activities. This question I get a
million times and a lot of people just love talking
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about their passion, I havent found my passion,
whats my passion? This is such a large area. Any
thoughts, its seems you have a unique perspec-
tive on some of this. What would you suggest?
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS] I also...its funny, we must
get the same people email us. I get a lot of people
who ask that: like, I dont knowI love how youre
just so passionate, but I havent found my thing
yet...
Ramit Sethi: Yes, yesoh, my god, I get similar
emails.
Derek Sivers: I dont know what my...
Ramit Sethi: Yes.
Derek Sivers: And so I thought about this for a
long time, and I realized that the problem is that
people who say that are expecting it to be like this
massive thunderbolt ash of lightening likeyes!
Im going to cure malariata-dah...And theyre go-
ing to get this giant passion and purpose in their
life, and I think the media, storytelling books, or
movies, or whatever they kind of build it up so we
think it has to be this big, magic thing. And then I
realized its a lot like Romeo and Juliet...
Ramit Sethi: Yes.
Derek Sivers: But if you read too many love
stories or watch too many movies, or whatever
youd think that love needs to look like Romeo
and Juliet. That it has to be this anguished, pas-
sionate, driventhe moment they saw each other
they couldnt stop. They did this, and its intense
and its burningand you must dieotherwise if
its anything short of that it was not true love. And
I think people kind of expect that their passion
needs to feel like that. But, instead, like if you just
notice what excites you and what scares you on a
small moment-to-moment level, thats your pas-
sion.
So its like, if you nd yourselfsay youre dab-
bling with something online, like you play with
PhotoShop and you will play with PhotoShop for
hours into the night, then just go for it, maybe
thats actually your new calling. And I like the idea
of what scares you too. So if theres something
that you notice that every time you think about it,
it feels kind of terrifying, like you get kind of but-
teries in your stomach thinking about it. Maybe
you actually would love to be a Hollywood screen-
writer. Like actually write major blockbuster mov-
ies, but just me saying that makes me go like: oh,
oh, ohno wayI cant do that. I dont know who
those geniuses are that write those things, but its
not me.
Ramit Sethi: Hmm!
Derek Sivers: Even if youre just feeling that kind
of nervous terried feeling that means its prob-
ably a worthy endeavor for you. I think you just
go. Any time you just do whateverit excites you,
whatever interests you and whatever scares you,
you are on the right track and that is your passion
and its just maybe people like you and me who
just share it a little louder than others, it makes it
look like its some big, giant, burning passion. But
really its just following whatever interests you.
Ramit Sethi: I like that. My friend Ben Casnocha
says: Think about doing more of what you do on a
Saturday afternoon.
Derek Sivers: Mm-hmm.
Ramit Sethi: You know, when nobody is around,
when youre reading that book on fashion, and
youre just sitting in your apartment, maybe thats
a route that you could take. Nobody is forcing you
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to read it. Think about what is it that excites you;
and Id like to deconstruct it. So I think two things.
One isif youre reading a fashion magazine,
sometimes people will jump to a very tactical con-
clusion. Theyll say: I want to create my own fash-
ion magazine. Well maybe, or maybe you might
want to be a fashion reviewer, or maybe you just
want to be a fashion photographer.
First, is to understand the whole universe of op-
tions when it comes to what excites you and what
makes you scared. So if you talk about screen-
writing, there are all kinds of diferent writing and
screenwriting and things in Hollywood.
The second point I was going to make issearch.
Do searches, investigate, talk to people. In about
10 to 15 hours you can become really, really smart
on any given area, in general. So if you say, I really
love fashion, or fashion magazines, thats good.
Thats not sufcient though, go deeper. Start
searching, talk to people, go to a couple of meet
ups, and you will be a lot smarter within just two
weeks.
Derek Sivers: Nice, I like that. And then theres
this idea, like dont be afraid to change. I think
some people sayget into music, for example,
because they love music, and they learn to play
bass and they join a band, and now theyre tour-
ing around the country, but they are often the one
thats actually booking the gigs, for example, and
as time goes on they notice that they actually are
more passionate about booking the gigs than
they are just standing on the stage thumbing the
E-string again. And so when you hit a situation like
that, you just need to admit it to yourself.
Like, you know what, actually even though this
isnt what I had announced to all my friends and
family...
Ramit Sethi: Hmm!
Derek Sivers: I think Im actually more interested
in this side than that. Dont stick with something
just because its what you set out to do, or just
because its what you announced. Like keep true
to your current interests.
Ramit Sethi: Do you nd that being honest with
yourself is difcult? I nd it increasingly difcult.
Like, for example, Ill say things like: yeah, I really
should sort that pile of papers thats been sitting
on my table for nine months.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: Well, if Im honest with myself Im not
going to sort that pile of papers, and the reason I
say pile of papers, is that every time I go home to
my parents house, I would take this pile of pa-
pers that I needed to sort and I would stick it in a
plastic bag, and I would take it home. And I would
sayyeah, Im going to have a lot of free time
when Im at my parents house. And of course,
what do I do during my free time there? I eat and
I sleep. And it happened to me like ten times,
where I would go back and never sort those pa-
pers. Finally, I had to admit to myself this is not go-
ing to get done. So either hire someone to do it,
or just throw it out. And I nd that pattern of being
honest with myself very, very difcult sometimes.
Have you had that experience?
Derek Sivers: Yeah, the minimalist thing was kind
of...thats one stage I think of like what youre
talking about where I started looking at so many
things in my life, like saying, Im holding onto this
because I told myself that I might need it some
day just in case. Or, some day 20 years from now
I might want to look at that. Then I just kind of
do this cleansing thing of looking at it and going:
you know whatfuck it. I havent looked at that in
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
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one year, Im not going to look at it in ten years.
And so I just throw out everything. I mean, dude,
I threw out my old diaries, my old love letters, my
old photos, my old everything. Like I just realized,
I dont need itI dont need any of this stuf. So I
just threw it all in a big dumpster and I gave every-
thing away I couldnt throw away. But the real one
to me, thats been harder to admitit is what an
introvert I am.
I think this world is getting more and more social,
and especially now for those of us who live on-
line so much, everything is more and more so-
cial. Meet with your friends, for real, check in let
your friends know where you are at all times. Im
likeugh. Its my nightmare, I dont want people to
reach me, I dont want to be contacted...I like sit-
ting alone. I like sitting alone for 5 to 12 hours at a
time in total silence just thinking, writing, reading,
thats what I love. And meeting up with friends
yeah, maybe a couple hours a week [LAUGHS]
But its funny like even, I got married this past year
and so weve spent every hour together for the
past year. She, a few months ago, said: you know,
I think you are even less social than you admit to
yourself. Or I think she might have saidyoure
more antisocial than you admit yourself.
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS]
Derek Sivers: She goes: you really just want to be
alone pretty much all the time. Im likeyeah. Its
just a very unpopular opinion to have.
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: Everybody expects you to be so-
cial, be connected, meet up with everybody. And
Im like: no, I just like to be alonethinking, writ-
ing, reading, learning, creating. So its hard to kind
of admit those things...
Ramit Sethi: Sometimes its just so close to you to
force you to look at them. Its not always bad, its
not always good, but thats interestingokay. Can
we talk about low value versus high value activi-
ties?
Derek Sivers: Yeah.
Ramit Sethi: You are a guy that gets a lot of stuf...
Okay, here is the thing. I just sent you an email a
couple days ago by the way, I was like: hey, this
is a nice article that youve put togetheractually,
Ive sent you a few emails because I see your ar-
ticles everywhere. Okaylike Im on this website
and its linked to you, Im reading that blog and its
linked to you, and Im likedude, this guy, I can-
not escape Derek Sivers.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: And so, I want to just talk to you
about how you think about whats worth work-
ing on? And, for me, I talk a lot about cost versus
value, and I think sometimes people overly focus
on the cost of something. Like, oh, my god, that
course costs 500 bucks, or whatever it is, thats
too much, and really the value, if that course
makes you $2,000 or it makes you happy, like
lattes is a classic example where every personal
nance expert in the world says: dont spend
money on lattes. But the truth is, rst of all it
doesnt cost that much, and second of all the
value is there. People love it and it makes them
happy in the morning.
So how do you think about cost versus value? Its
obviously not just dollar related, and also can you
maybe talk about whats worth working on?
Derek Sivers: Yeah, I mean, I could talk about the
stuf that I think has already been covered enough
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by you and even people like Tim Ferriss, this idea
that...look at what youre working on and think:
can somebody else be doing this? And if you can
pay somebody else $15 an hour to do this and
you consider your time to be worth than that, then
what the hell are you doing, just let somebody
else do it. So thats one way of looking at it, and
thats an important point to get rst. So lets say
that thats the...make sure you understand that
mindset rst.
But then whats interesting is you have to get kind
of philosophical. Like you said a little bit about the
latte; what makes me happy? Like truth, the most
optimized life I could live may not have lattes in
it. And the most money optimized life I could live
would be me spending all my time just selling and
doing the stuf that brings in $1,000-an-hour, and
somebody else can do the other stuf.
But you do have to ask yourself: what do I love
doing; because Ive met a lot of miserable million-
aires...
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: They are a lot of people that are
trapped and bitter...Ill tell you what the biggest
one wasits like when I nally kind of set up my
business so that I was not required for the day-to-
day operations of my company. Like it was hard
work, and I think thats the thing youre talking
aboutit was an article I just wrote on my site just
two days ago called: Delegate or Die...
Ramit Sethi: Yes.
Derek Sivers: And it was just my tale of how I
realized that its kind of the self-employed trap.
If youve been an employee, you dream of being
self-employed. You think, oh nally, I wont have
an asshole boss; I will be my own boss. And so
then you become self-employed, where youre
earning money by stuf that youre doing with your
own two hands, and somebody is paying you to
do it. And thats great at rst until you realize that
youre kind of trapped.
Meaning like, if you want to take a few months of,
like if you can just imagine some horrible that hap-
pens in your life like you get hit by a car and break
a bunch of bones or something, your income is
going to dry up completely, if youre notif youre
two hands are not on the project. And thats not
real freedom to me. And I always make decisions
in life based on what gives me more freedom, so I
had to kind of go through the hard work of teach-
ing everybody else at my little small business
how to do everything I was doing. Every question
they asked me I made sure that every...I wouldnt
just answer the question I would make sure ev-
erybody heard my answer and understood the
thought process behind it, so that they wouldnt
have to ask me this kind of question anymore.
Made sure that it was clear to everybodythey
could do it themselves.
So anyway after about a year of doing this I had
made myself unnecessary to the running of my
company, and I moved down to L.A., really just
because my girlfriend was down there at the time.
So I moved to L.A. and everybody I met withI
was meeting some really successful peopleI
mean, really successful business owners and mul-
timillionaires or whatever, and when they would
see that Im in L.A. and they will...how are you able
to be here while your company is running? And I
would tell them, and they would say: who is run-
ning it then?
Id saywell, I am. Ive built a system that works.
And theyd sayoh, man I could never do...I
havent taken a vacation in 12 years man, I work
my ass of. And sometimes people are really
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proud of telling you...
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: How many years its been since
they had a vacation. Im likeit sounds like hell to
me.
Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS]
Derek Sivers: So you realize that there is a lot of,
kind of, really successful people but, unfortunate-
ly, got themselves tied up doing the stuf that they
dont really love. You see that theyre kind of suc-
cessful but miserable. So I think its important to
always notice that very, kind of, quiet voice in your
gut. Like what excites you and what drains you.
So if youre doing something thats draining your
energy. Like you just noticed that every time you
do this, you just feel likeuh, I hate doing this, but
I have to do thisand just stop immediately. Just
nd a way to stop doing that.
Everything that bores you, theres somebody
somewhere that it excites them, so just let them
do those things, and whatever you notice excites
youlike you saidwhat are you doing on a Sat-
urday afternoon. Or what is the thing thats keep-
ing you up until in the morning, in a good way. You
cant sleep because youre so excited about this
thing youre doing, make sure youre doing more
of that.
And, again, it may be unconventional; so at CD
Baby I had 85 employees, but I was the only tech
person, I was the only programmer, and every-
thing you saw on CDBaby.Com both front-end,
backend, Internet, outside, insideit was all me,
I just did the whole thing myself. Because thats
what I loved and so everybody that would look at
the company would say, why dont you outsource
that? What are younuts? Like come on you can
aford it. Im likeyeah, I can aford but this is
what makes me happy.
So, instead, I found the stuf that I didnt like doing
which was going to conferences and schmoozing
and talking to other businesses and doing busi-
ness deals, I hated all that stuf. I mean, I did it
for a couple of years, and just every time I would
leave feeling exhausted and drained. And I said:
Why am I doing this? Because I think that Im sup-
posed to, Im the business owner, I should be the
one doing the big deals. And I was like, no, but I
dont care if thats what most people do, I hate it. I
like sitting there alone on my little UNIX Terminal,
programming. Thats what makes happy.
So yeahI outsourced everything else, I out-
sourced the running of the companyeven the
business dealing, the hiring, the ring, all that was
done by others so I could just sit therealone
and programming, thats what I love the best.
Ramit Sethi: I just want to make a point about all
that automate and delegate or die story you made
for the people listening. Not all of us have com-
panies with 85 people. Not all of us can automate
ourselves out of a job, and still keep making mon-
ey, but the whole point of everything youve said,
Derek, today, is you start small. I mean, the way
that you were able to build that business and sell
it so successfully, it didnt start in 1998, it started
so much before that.
When you talk about your mindset when you went
to Kimo Williams; and you talk about how you be-
came a guitarist when nobody else could do the
job that you got. And all these great stories youve
told us about tonight, and that you have on your
blog, its about starting out small.
So for those of you listening who dont have
85-person companies, theres probably some-
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thing at your job today, that you dont like and you
could nd a way to have somebody else do, you
could ask your boss. Maybe you could gure out
a way to negotiate to work from home on Fridays.
There are so many ways, and I think the whole
point of what Derek and I are talking about tonight
is, when you crack that code, when you unlock
the fact that you are in control, even in the small-
est way, then the whole world starts changing and
you then say: hey, I can also be in control of this,
and that, and thisand that is how opportunities
unfold over the long term
Derek Sivers: Hell, yeahwell said.
Ramit Sethi: Okay, beautiful. Anything else,
Derek, that we should cover? I want to give a link
to your site, and I also want to tell people about
this amazing PDF that you have, really quickly.
You didnt even know I was going to mention this
tonight.
But Derek has this PDF on his site which is at
www.sivers.org/PDF, and its a PDF you put to-
gether for musicians on how to market them-
selves, and how to market their music. Its one of
the best pieces of marketing that Ive ever read,
and particularly with musicians who are some of
the most people to sort of change.
Derek Sivers: [LAUGHS]
Ramit Sethi: Actually, Im glad youre a musician
because, like you are probably the poster child
for...You know what, even though youre a musi-
cian you can do marketing and its not evil to
make money.
Derek Sivers: Right.
Ramit Sethi: You know what I mean, all the classic
things. So you put together this beautiful PDF and
its free, so everyone should go and download
that.
Derek, your blog: www.sivers.org/blog is that cor-
rect?
Derek Sivers: Yes.
Ramit Sethi: Okay, and anything else people
should know about?
Derek Sivers: No, thats it. I mean, right now Im
in this...since selling CD Baby...I think, you go
through diferent phases in your life to distinguish-
ing between, like, your head down and head up,
so its like for 20 years of my life I was absolutely
just head down, nose to the grindstone, just com-
pletely focused on my work, and when I sold CD
Baby I actually incorporated my next company. I
immediately put my nose to the grindstone to do
that oneand I said: hold on, what am I doing?
If my life is ever going to change and improve, I
need to actually make a change in my life, not jut
keep doing the same thing.
Ramit Sethi: Hmm!
Derek Sivers: So I forced myself to stop, and so
for the last two years, Ive just been kind of very
much like head up, like looking around at the
world, doing a lot of writing, a lot of reading. Ive
been going to the Ted Conferences, and I spoke
at Ted three timesoh, I think four times now
and so everything...I think sometimes people look
at my Sivers.Org website and they kind of wonder
like: whats the motive, whats the catch; like what
are you trying to sell...
Ramit Sethi: Yeah.
Derek Sivers: But Im actually not trying to sell
anything. Its just like, Im enjoying just sharing
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S I V E R S I N T E R V I E W T R A N S C R I P T
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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and the people that Ive met through doing this
are amazing. So if Id just encourage if anybody...if
you actually listened to this whole hour conversa-
tion, please just feel free to click the email-me link
and drop me a hello-email. Its one of the lovely
side efect of being head up right now, is people
often start an email to me by saying: I know youre
incredibly busy.
Im likeno, Im not busy. Im in control of my life,
and I dont do anything I dont want to do, so Im
not busy, Im happy to talk to people, so feel free
to contact meIm glad to help.
Ramit Sethi: Its a motto we can all live byIm in
control of my life. Thank you, Derek. Its always a
pleasure and not just in a professional sense, of
course, but since weve become friends over the
last couple years, its been a great learning oppor-
tunity for me, and every time we talk I learn some-
thing ten times newer than I ever expected to.
Derek Sivers: Oh, thanks, man. You too, I love our
conversations, so thanks a lot.
Ramit Sethi: Thank you, Ill talk to you soon.
Derek Sivers: See you.