High Lube Oil Temp 1453407.S

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Leonardo
Al C., Ammar I. like this
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Ammar
Like 0 Comment (36) 0 May 31, 2013
High lube oil temp
Ammar I.
Chief mechanical engineer at North oil company
solar centaur 40 gas turbine has got a tripping on high lube oil diff.
Temp. Between header and gearbox drain .

Could you people share your experiences in this regard on your
machines?

Also what effect could it cause to the machine?

Thanks. Hoping great participation.
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Comments
Leonardo G.
Mechanical Resident Leader in Yemen LNG
I'm srry I don't know the solar turbine.
Also is not enoug (for me ) only this information.
If the temperature in hte bearing is normal and in the drain is high the problem probable came
from the;
A-Insolation of drain(is the drain are in the hot area)
B- if the higt temprature are in the bearing and low in the drain the problem came from the
thermocouple.
C-I'm sorry but for give more better dettailsI need know better Solar machins I talk for ge machins.
Regards
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Leonardo G.
PS
Please give me the temperature in the header Gear box bearing if Have and the drain.
In case don't the bearing temperature have ti take in consideration:
Vent gera box is good?
Ifyes have bearing problem or instruments problem
Ammar I.
Dear,
Solar gas turbine was tripped due high differential lube oil teperature between gear box drain and
header supply,at the same time all bearing temperature rising above the limit
Ammar I.
The diff. Temp. Is 40 f
Leonardo G.
In this case the diferential are true. The instrument work well.
In GE header the temperature are 55Celsius and the bearing temperature in the gear box bearing
around 60 to 80 Celsius.
Critical medium critical temperature is 115Celsius.
40 F is the desine temperature correct? becouse for me the diferential temperature 40F is low.
You have thermocouple in the gearbox bearing?if yes please give me the bearing temperature?
Vent of gear box is static or connected in the oil tank under negativetank pressure?
Ammar I.
We have RTD on gearbox drain, bearing temperature as follows
Brg1=90,brg2=81,brg3,4=78, and the temp.of lube oil enter the cooler was 84and discharge from
cooler64
Ammar I.
Vent of gear box iam not quit sure,I must check it , give me pls the different.what can cause. But
at the same time compressor bearing temperature are within the limit
Leonardo G.
Der Mr. Ammr
The vloue that you give me are un celsius? maybe yes.
So..Temperature from oil cooler are high and more high in the header.
Normal the bearing temperature oil are beetween 50 to 55Celsius and from cooler not more at 50
52 Celsius becouse the thermostatic alve to be mixt with bypass the return oil from cooler to oil
from tank.

(this is the temperature in Hevy gas turbine with whit metal bearing)
In this case have to looking the oil cooler (if air cooler if the fan work well and if the bandle tube
eternal side are clean.
In case have water cooler looking the D.T.water temperature in and out if good orn not if the water
temperature is in and out is the same looking the water thermostatic valve if are in open full open
position need to be clean the cooler bandle.
If the thermo valve is closed need to open and encrease the water flow.

Any way the header bearing need 50 max 55 Celsius.
Any case looking the manual instruction regarding the specification temperature that need the
bearing. In GE H.G.T. the max. temperature must be 55 Ceslius.

Gear box Vent; if don't have the vent encrease the temperature and leaking some oil or vapour oil
in the bearing and also have noise from the gera box.
(sorry for my english but don't use my traslater now)
Kevin K.
Field tech at Solar Turbines
Is this a generator? How many hours on the gearbox? If it is the drain rtd it should hit alarm, is it?
These are checked (PLC?) by the plc for 200deg F alarm, and 250 deg F for shutdown. I have 28
years in field service for Solar.
Kevin K.
I should have added, iwhat is the "typical tempurature"? Has there been a vibration survey done?
Ammar I.
Dear kevin,
The train consist of solar centur 40drive solar compressor . The plc copare the temperature for
gear box drain with header temperature if it reaches 45 f the turbine trip Today i increase the
setting of lube oil header pressur by lube oil regulator the unit run two ohours and shutted down
again. No vibration observe.
Ammar I.
I should have added, gear box drain temp.190.4F and lube oil header temperature 152.6 F.
Kevin K.
Is this a solar supplied control set? How old? I take it this is an increaser gearbox, is the thrust
bearing gap being measured by temp, or an axial prox probe?
Kevin K.
I've never seen control logic that compares drain temp to header. "norm" has been 225 deg F.
alarm, 250 deg. f shutdown, these temps you have if staedy are fine.
Ammar I.
Dear sir,
It is not solar supplied control set it have been upgraded lastly,yes it is increaser gear box there is
an RTD inserted in gear box drain .what should i do.
Kevin K.
As I stated those temp values are normal. I'd suggest you contact the person that wrote the
control logic, and ask them what to do.Solar logic is simple as stated if the rtd temp reach 225 deg
F, alarm, 250 deg F shutdown. Oil in is already at 150+. I don't at all understand this logic.
Ammar I.
Could you please give me any document to prove what we said about temperature and solar logic
set. Any document if it is possible.
I will appreciate.
Kevin K.
I am retired. I might have a backup copy of a compressor plc program. You can contact Solar with
what you have.
Ammar I.
Thanks for your cooperation, just last questions please, what this signal means
High gearbox drain diff temp.
Kevin K.
I would recommend you request an engineering spec from Solar on this. That information is open
to you. Do you have any current service bulletins? This might be covered in that. Solar won't
disclose technical letters to non employees, but the ERL (engineering release letter) you should
be able to obtain. If you cannot get what you need you can contact me at kkoloff@aol.com
Kevin K.
For whatever reason, the control logic is looking at header temp, and comparing it to drain temp,
subtracting it (differencial), and I assume on what you posted it is compaing the diffreential temp
to 45 degrees, if greater than or (again I assume) equal to 45 shutdown. Is there no alarm?
Leonardo G.
Yes Mr. Kolof
1I agree your racomandation
Yordan Y.
Control and instrument engineer
Hi!
If the turbine was running with this logic before - that means that your mechanicall losses in gear
box increasing (i assume that no problem with measurements). It is good way to chech the
condition of gear box by starter motor current (compare it with previos one in good condition), turn
the GP manually and check for any unusual noises. Check if something come in oil pipe for gear
box and your oil flow is redused.
Kevin K.
He said the control system was retrofitted. He didn't say how long this condition has exsisted
since then.
Yordan Y.
Agree. But usually after retrofitting from non manufacturing company there are commissioning
prosedures, 72 hour test, performance test .....
Kevin K.
Point is the temps he has are not high.
Yordan Y.
In order to discover increased mechanical losses it is not enough to put some limits. You should
know delta T and flow to calculate them. If we assume that the flow is constant (practicaly it is)
than variable is only deltaT.
Kevin K.
The gearbox drain is orficed. If the control system was retrofitted in the winter where the header oil
temp was much cooler then proportionally the drain temp is also. I've never seen a differential
temp control system as is described. Looking back at some solar tech letters all I could find was
engine thrust bearing min max and depending on viscosity, again, these lube oil temps are fine..
Yordan Y.
I thing the header temperature should be the same. I also never seen something like this, but i
think that it is good solution to implement such a logic (of course if it is tunned well).
Kevin K.
I am going to drop of this thread as again I have said these temps are normal. The drain temp
reflects the work being done by the gearbox. The compressors, and again I assume at least a two
body low stage/high stage has bearing drain temp rtds. Those are in for protection of the babbit
balanance piston seals. The GP/engine thrust bearing temps are monitored for excessive seal
clearance since Solar utilizes combustion air for sealing. Thats also the reason for hot section
postlube, to cool the bearings after shutdown.
Jimmy S.
Owner, Black Diamond Security Solutions
Sounds like you might have a differential pressure rather than a differential temperature problem
should check your oil filters if it is a temperature Delta then check your cooler have it cleaned I'm
not an engineer but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express
Sandy M.
Sales Manager at C.C. Jensen Ltd.
J immy, I think a night at the Holiday Inn Express more than qualifies you to comment on the
situation!! LOL
Brett L.
E&I Maintenance Coordinator at RocOil Cliff Head Offshore OIL Project WA
If you have a high header temp. Check the thermostatic control valve for excessive recycling due
to a sticky power pill. This is a common problem with Mars engines
John C.
Area Sales Manager at Emerson
I'm not an expert, but generally if you have a high outlet temp and your instruments are OK and
your inlet temp. is OK - you must have "something" in your system adding calories to the oil!
Faulty cooler? Bearing running hot? Damaged gear wheels or....? Try using "normal" fault finding
technique ;-)
Byron S.
Accounts manager at Solar Turbines Retired
Kevin Koloff gave the correct answer, he is as I, an X solar FSR. All other responses are simply
filling space. Time to move on!
Ammar I.
Dear sir,
It is not solar supplied control set it have been upgraded lastly,yes it is increaser gear box there is
an RTD inserted in gear box drain .what should i do.
Kevin K.
As I stated those temp values are normal. I'd suggest you contact the person that wrote the
control logic, and ask them what to do.Solar logic is simple as stated if the rtd temp reach 225 deg
F, alarm, 250 deg F shutdown. Oil in is already at 150+. I don't at all understand this logic.
Ammar I.
Could you please give me any document to prove what we said about temperature and solar logic
set. Any document if it is possible.
I will appreciate.
Kevin K.
I am retired. I might have a backup copy of a compressor plc program. You can contact Solar with
what you have.
Ammar I.
Thanks for your cooperation, just last questions please, what this signal means
High gearbox drain diff temp.
Kevin K.
I would recommend you request an engineering spec from Solar on this. That information is open
to you. Do you have any current service bulletins? This might be covered in that. Solar won't
disclose technical letters to non employees, but the ERL (engineering release letter) you should
be able to obtain. If you cannot get what you need you can contact me at kkoloff@aol.com
Kevin K.
For whatever reason, the control logic is looking at header temp, and comparing it to drain temp,
subtracting it (differencial), and I assume on what you posted it is compaing the diffreential temp
to 45 degrees, if greater than or (again I assume) equal to 45 shutdown. Is there no alarm?
Yordan Y.
I thing the header temperature should be the same. I also never seen something like this, but i
think that it is good solution to implement such a logic (of course if it is tunned well).
Kevin K.
I am going to drop of this thread as again I have said these temps are normal. The drain temp
reflects the work being done by the gearbox. The compressors, and again I assume at least a two
body low stage/high stage has bearing drain temp rtds. Those are in for protection of the babbit
balanance piston seals. The GP/engine thrust bearing temps are monitored for excessive seal
clearance since Solar utilizes combustion air for sealing. Thats also the reason for hot section
postlube, to cool the bearings after shutdown.
Jimmy S.
Owner, Black Diamond Security Solutions
Sounds like you might have a differential pressure rather than a differential temperature problem
should check your oil filters if it is a temperature Delta then check your cooler have it cleaned I'm
not an engineer but I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express
Sandy M.
Sales Manager at C.C. Jensen Ltd.
J immy, I think a night at the Holiday Inn Express more than qualifies you to comment on the
situation!! LOL
Brett L.
E&I Maintenance Coordinator at RocOil Cliff Head Offshore OIL Project WA
If you have a high header temp. Check the thermostatic control valve for excessive recycling due
to a sticky power pill. This is a common problem with Mars engines
John C.
Area Sales Manager at Emerson
I'm not an expert, but generally if you have a high outlet temp and your instruments are OK and
your inlet temp. is OK - you must have "something" in your system adding calories to the oil!
Faulty cooler? Bearing running hot? Damaged gear wheels or....? Try using "normal" fault finding
technique ;-)
Byron S.
Accounts manager at Solar Turbines Retired
Kevin Koloff gave the correct answer, he is as I, an X solar FSR. All other responses are simply
filling space. Time to move on!
Fidel L.
Jefe de Mantenimiento Pecuario en Productos Alimentarios Sofia S.A.
Hi, would be good to check the status of the thermostatic valve. located near the oil filter. similar
failure had a centaur 50. Also analyze historical trends to see temperatures in the drains. whether
they were increasing or was somewhat abrupt.
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