Sites of Collective Memory Artists Talk

the Agency, London, 16 July !1"

Artists Jordan Baseman, Shona Illingworth, Delaine Le Bas, Damian James Le Bas
and Roz Mortimer discussed their Sites of Collective Memor !ro"ects with curator
and Co#$ounder of Culture % Conflict, Michaela Crimmin&
Michaela Crimmin# $or those of ou in the audience who haven't seen the wor(,
I'll "ust )roadl sa that it goes across !lace, from Ja!an and the atomic )om) that
was dro!!ed on *iroshima to the Roma genocide in +uro!e, which I loo(ed u! and
was horrified ) m own ignorance at the estimated num)er of the Roma (illed in
the Second ,orld ,ar& -here's this contested !ast and !resent, and we ho!e this
does not carr into the future, )ut the genocide the record is some .//,/// Roma
(illed across +uro!e&
I don't (now wh I got into the num)ers of it, )ecause when ou loo( at the
individual stories, of course, overall num)ers are neither here nor there& ,ith 0Little
Bo' that was dro!!ed in Ja!an on August 1
th
234., it's again indeterminate
num)ers, somewhere )etween 1/,/// and 5/,/// and I'm not 6uite sure wh the
num)ers aren't more accurate&
Jordan $aseman# I can tell ou& ,hen the )om) was dro!!ed in *iroshima, the
7S occu!ied Ja!an for another seven ears, so !eo!le weren't allowed to tal(
a)out what had ha!!ened to them& +ven though there was a health !lan in !lace, it
wasn't reall recognised until the 7S left Ja!an&
So unless !eo!le died right at the time the weren't counted& -hen after America
left Ja!an that's when !eo!le )egan to )e counted, )ut radiation !oisoning or how
it im!acted on !eo!le's lives later in life wasn't understood&
-here's a cenota!h there now and there's a ceremon on August 1
th
ever ear
where new names get added& Ms +na is fighting to get her sister recognised at
the cenota!h and her sister died 22 ears after the atomic )last and clearl died
from radiation !oisoning )ut the government didn't recognise it& ,hat's tragic is
that Ms +na is now 53 and she's lo))ing to get her sister in the cenota!h as a
mar( of res!ect )efore she dies&
So that's wh the num)ers are incorrect and are continuall )eing added to&
%o& Mortimer# +ven with the num)ers that ou have a)out Roma (illed during the
Second ,orld ,ar there's no wa of (nowing if that num)er is accurate& 8artl
)ecause Roma were rarel on !arish records, and lots of the (illings were in forests
and roadsides, as the ones in the film& +ven with those graves there's no wa that
an)od reall (nows who's in them until the get dug u! and counted& It's difficult
to get accurate figures, and in a wa even thin(ing a)out figures o!ens u! a whole
can of worms thin(ing a)out com!arative num)ers and the value that ou might !ut
on one t!e of trauma over another t!e of trauma& It's !ro)lematic to start tal(ing
a)out num)ers&
MC# Before we go an further I'd li(e to invite each of the artists to )roadl
introduce their !ractice& -hen I have m own limited num)er of 6uestions )efore we
o!en it u! more as a conversation&
-o (ic( start, Jordan, would ou li(e to introduce ourself&
J$# M wor( often starts with an interview !rocess or a series of interviews& I never
reall (now what I'm loo(ing for until I find it and have no agenda when I'm
interviewing !eo!le, e9ce!t to gather information as raw material& Sometimes those
interviews will )e a cou!le of hours, sometimes there'll )e :., 4/ hours, de!ending
on how generous !eo!le are with their time& $rom those interviews I distil a
soundtrac(& -he soundtrac(s that I create are not necessaril at all what !eo!le
have said, with the e9ce!tion of Little Bo I usuall refashion everthing the sa&
Sometimes I'll ta(e a sentence and leave it as it is, )ut usuall I'm reconstructing
everthing that the sa& It's not that I am changing the s!irit or the tone of what
the sa, I'm concentrating what the sa so that it is more streamlined and has
some s!ace around it so it has more im!act&
I refer to it as creative non#fiction& -o me that's something that is not so common in
this countr as a !ractice, )ut in America the first creative non#fiction novel was
-ruman Ca!ote's In Cold Blood& I ta(e that as a huge source of ins!iration& ,hat is
uni6ue a)out the )oo( in the conte9t of American literature when it was written in
the 231/s is it's told from the !oint of the view of the famil and it's told from the
!oint of view of the (illers and it's !resented to ou as a novel not as a factual
account& -hat's something that I'm ver interested in, the difference )etween a
!erceived realit and a constructed realit as something that might )e a realit&
MC# -han( ou& Shall I "um! to ou, Shona;
Shona 'lling(orth# I wor( with video, sound, !hotogra!h and drawing& I ma(e
installations using three#dimensional or multi#channel sound, although in :21
,est)ound the audio is stereo&
I'm !articularl interested in the wa that memor and amnesia affect the wa that
we !erceive and e9!erience the world& I have )een wor(ing in dialogue for a)out
2: ears with cognitive neuro!schologist Martin A& Conwa, who develo!ed some
(e theoretical models for understanding Auto)iogra!hical memor, or memor for
e9!erience&
I'm interested in the idea that memories for e9!erience are constructed and are
uni6ue to the moment of remem)ering, and as such can never )e re!eated& I'm
interested in the !rocesses of amnesia )oth individual and cultural, and through m
discussions with Martin, in e9!loring the wa in which we could !erha!s thin( of
amnesia in three different forms&
So we could consider some forms of amnesia as catastro!hic< where events don't
get encoded and are com!letel lost& Secondl, as structural< for instance where
neurological !athwas are damaged in the case of alzheimers for instance so
memories ma )e significantl com!romised =ne could also thin( of structural
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amnesia e9isting within the socio#!olitical, cultural s!aces that we occu!, for
instance when !articular histories or events are activel erased or the structures for
accessing those histories are activel inhi)ited or disru!ted & And thirdl, forgetting<
where that which can't )e )rought into conscious thought or alternativel into the
conscious cultural or socio#!olitical s!ace that we occu!, nevertheless continues
to have an effect&
I thin( that thin(ing a)out amnesia, not as sim!l as a loss or a)sence, something
that onl relates to the !ast, )ut as a condition that continues to have an effect and
an im!act on the wa that our !resent is formed, is enormousl interesting& And
also an effect on how we can !ro"ect into the future, our imagined future& -he
conse6uences of amnesia, )oth individual and cultural, are significant, for instance
one can sa if ou do not have a diversit of memor ou severel limit the
ca!acit to imagine a future&
-hese 6uestions are of !articular interest in m !ractice& I wor( a lot with
individuals and !laces where there are conflicts of memor or where there are
difficulties in containing memor within the conventional or dominant narrative
themes, and that's reflected in the wa that the wor( is structured&
MC# -han( ou& Delaine and Damian, I don't (now who would li(e to (ic( off to tal(
a)out our wor(& As I understand it ou )oth wor( se!aratel as well as
colla)orativel&
)elaine Le $as# 7suall I create installations in mi9ed media& I wor( a lot with
te9tiles, fa)rics and em)roider& I also incor!orate sound, !erformance wor( and
sometimes film& M son, Damian, edits all the film and often wor(s with the sound&
Most of the wor( that I do deals with the !osition of )eing an outsider and loo(ing
at historical conte9t of that )ut also how that affects the !resent conte9t& =ne of the
installations I started in ://3, that is still touring, is called ,itch *unt& It deals with
this notion historicall and in the !resent conte9t, loo(ing at how that affects
different communities and !eo!le # how lots of historical ideas aren't discussed, )ut
continue, and it's often the same !eo!le who are at the receiving end&
I li(e to colla)orate with other !eo!le !articularl with the !erformance wor(&
Sometimes the !erformative wor( ha!!ens on the street& It's a)out doing
something and seeing what ha!!ens& It's not alwas in the galler conte9t> I li(e to
wor( in different t!es of s!aces&
I also create installations with m hus)and& ,e have one in !articularl called Safe
+uro!ean *ome; It's an on#going installation that we've )een wor(ing on since
:/2/, and was first !laced outside the Austrian 8arliament in ?ienna in :/22& It
ta(es different forms< sometimes it's 6uite small, sometimes 6uite )ig, and we tr
and ma(e it as a s!ace where !eo!le can interact with it in !u)lic&
)amian James Le $as# I'm a writer and a filmma(er& I tend to ma(e short films
with lots of different !eo!le, and I run a small, nomadic, film house called @otown
8roductions with two other gus&
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-his is the first animated film !ro"ect that I've wor(ed on& It's )een interesting& $or
me, m !ractice, whether it's in writing or film is reall a)out tring to get idioms,
was of s!ea(ing, thin(ing and )eing, ou wouldn't normall e9!erience in a certain
medium into that medium& ,hether that's the !olitical discourse ou hear in a !u)
out in the shires and tring to get that into !oetr, or in this case it was Romani
A!s memor a)out ghosts into a film which is a)out histor, even though it's
a)out a su)"ect which man !eo!le thin( is imaginar& I'm alwas tring to force a
s6uare !eg into round holes&
MC# -han( ou& Roz;
%o& Mortimer# I wor( with film, !hotogra!h and increasingl writing& I started out
as a scul!tor for a few ears and graduall )ecame a filmma(er& M wor( has
alwas e9isted at this intersection of fact and fiction much li(e Jordan's& I tend to
ta(e factual su)"ects and wor( with some of the filmic devices that might )e more
a(in to fictional film as a wa of e9!loring different t!es of truth&
So it's a)out moving awa from anthing that might )e conceived as )eing a
documentar truth and loo(ing at more emotional or affective truth, the realit of
what goes on in societ&
I tend to choose su)"ects that are difficult, su)"ects that !eo!le choose not to
ac(nowledge in societ& I wor( generall with to!ics that !eo!le !refer to (ee!
hidden& A lot of m wor( is s!ecificall a)out things that are invisi)le, which is an
interesting challenge as a filmma(er< wor(ing with a visual medium, how do ou
ma(e a film a)out something that isn't there; -hat's reall what's !reoccu!ied me
for the last few ears&
-he wor( has alwas )een a)out societ and how we construct societ and our
understanding of it, )ut in recent ears the wor( has )ecome more !olitical& I tr to
deal with !olitical su)"ects ) thin(ing a)out emotions, affects and feelings, and the
resonance that those things have in our lives&
I su!!ose a difference )etween mine and Jordan's wor( is that I don't necessaril
start with the interview, )ut the interview is alwas there in m wor(& ,ith this
!articular wor( I started with !lace& I did a lot of research and found !laces around
central and +astern +uro!e that were sites of unmemorialised trauma and atrocit
and decided to film and !hotogra!h those !laces&
I was filming and wor(ing with !inhole cameras, e9!loring was I might visualise
the trauma of that !lace& But to (now the stor and to understand wh it's a
traumatic !lace one has to deal with narratives, and so at the )eginning I was
loo(ing at lot at archive material and graduall, inadvertentl, found living !eo!le
and then started to wor( with their interviews& So the !lace came first, then I met all
of the !eo!le that are in m film, and their interviews came second& -hrough that
the film was structured around, not "ust their interview, )ut m e9!erience of
meeting them and understanding what had ha!!ened to them and how the were
telling the stor, which is something that one can't get from an archive interview&
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It's a !rocess of !lace, interview, and then tring to construct a new t!e of
meaning& ,ith this wor( it was im!ortant that there wasn't a histor, there wasn't an
e9isting recording of different stories, of what ha!!ened at these !laces&
MC# So testimon is an im!ortant driving force for ou;
%M# Bes, reall im!ortant& At the )eginning, it was a )igger !ro"ect and I was
wor(ing in other countries& I started wor(ing in *ungar with archive testimon& It
wasn't until I got to 8oland that I started wor(ing with live testimon& -he event was
5/ ears ago, )ut it hadn't occurred to me that there would have )een children as
witnesses, and that the would still )e living there ne9t door to these graves and
still )e a)le to remem)er and articulate a)out these events& -heir whole lives were
carried ) what the had seen&
Initiall when I started to meet the witnesses it was reall to understand the stor& I
didn't intend to use their testimon in the film, )ut once the'd started to tal(, then
there was no decision& -here's a contract that's formed& -he're ver old and
wanted to tell me their stories )efore the died& -he woman by the wheat feld
took me by the shoulders afterwards and said C@ow it's ours, I give it to ou,
I want to )e free of it&D
It's a res!onsi)ilit for me to ma(e the film and tell the stor, and ever)od who
sees the film also enters into that contract, which is im!ortant I thin(&
MC# It's a !rofoundl moving film&
=n the su)"ect of !eo!le and !artici!ation, Shona, how did ou come across John
-ulloch and his stor, and what was our starting !oint with this !articular wor(;
S'# Since ://1 I've )een organising a series of interdisci!linar forums, where I
invite !eo!le from various )ac(grounds and disci!lines to come together to discuss
(e 6uestions relating to the !olitics of memor and forgetting&
-he forums are designed to allow for different forms of articulation& 8eo!le are
invited to s!ea(, !resent, !erform, or articulate in whatever wa the choose to, in
res!onse to a set of (e 6uestions&
I had "ust finished a video and sound installation called -he ,atch Man, where I
wor(ed with m father who had as a 23 ear old soldier )een one of the first British
soldiers to enter Bergen Belsen when it was li)erated during the Second ,orld
,ar& *e was com!letel un!re!ared for what he saw there, he was not told where
he was going in advance and he never s!o(e a)out it until his late 5/s when we
started to ma(e this wor( together& I s!ent three ears ma(ing -he ,atch Man with
him&
I (new of John as an academic through an associate& And when I showed -he
,atch Man at the ,ellcome Collection, I organised a forum alongside it to discuss
war, conflict and memor, and I invited John to come to that&
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John saw -he ,atch Man and was moved ) it, and afterwards we discussed the
issue of how ou engage with someone else's trauma& At the forum the
intersections )etween war, memor and conflict were discussed ) !eo!le who had
ver different e9!eriences of war including militar !eo!le and war !hotogra!hers&
I (e!t in touch with John and while I (new at that time that I would )e interested to
wor( with him, it wasn't the right time& -hen a)out three ears ago I as(ed him if he
would )e interested in wor(ing with me on this !iece, :21 ,est)ound& ,e have
)een wor(ing together since then, and the !iece is still in !rogress& It will )e a
much longer film eventuall> this is the first stage of the wor(&
MC# Delaine and Damian, in a sense ou and our famil are the !artici!ants of
what ou have made and are included in the !hotogra!h al)um in the galler
installation, as well as the film&
)L$# ,e were starting from the )ase that when anthing ha!!ens to anone, for
instance when someone dies within our communit, everone gathers together and
the tal( a)out these !laces and these !eo!le& +ven when I was a small child and
these !eo!le were alread dead it was li(e the were alive and I (new these
!laces& It ha!!ens in a !articular setting, usuall someone's front room or outside
in a mar6uee t!e of tent, where the men and women aren't alwas together and
sometimes the are&
,hat we were tring to create was a com)ination of things< these !laces meeting
together, and the matter of fact wa !eo!le tal( of what seem li(e 6uite
su!ernatural events in an ordinar wa, inter"ected into the conversation without it
)eing dramatic&
MC# Bour voice is in the filmE
)L$# M voice is in there tal(ing to m grandmother& I was tring to do it without
her (nowing I was recording, tring to catch her so it's "ust having a normal
conversation that I would have with her a)out a memor& A lot of these stories I've
)een told since I was a small child and are as much a !art of m stor as the are
m grandmother's )ecause I s!ent so much time with her&
)JL$# Bou did get !ermission after the fact&
)L$# Bes, )ecause I tried it )efore and there wasn't a wa of doing it without her
worring a)out the machine )eing there& So she was aware, )ut I had to go a
different wa a)out it to ca!ture her stor and her wa of relaing it& I thin( that's
reall im!ortant, )ecause she has a !articular wa of telling something, so I wanted
her voice to )e ver strong within the wor( and it not "ust to )e m memor of it&
)JL$# I thought it was interesting what Roz said a)out a )it of sus!icion a)out
what documentar !ur!orts to )e something it's not& I don't (now if that's wrong to
sa that, that's how I feel a)out it anwa&
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%M# @ot reall sus!icious, )ut I thin( it !ur!orts to )e factual )ut often onl
!resents one view!oint& I sto!!ed the using the term> I won't use it anmore to
descri)e m wor(&
)JL$# In m wor( as a "ournalist I'm constantl dealing with this issue with
documentaries and facts& 8articularl with this su)"ect< as soon as ou introduce
words li(e 0g!s' and 0traveller' ou've set u! the discourse, which is 6uite a fi9ed,
!ost#medieval discourse, that is incredi)l difficult to esca!e from& So none of
those words actuall come u! in our film& And tal(ing a)out num)ers alwas
creates a !ro)lem& It's a wa of esca!ing from that discourse to an e9tent, with this
film, to rela more actual truths in terms of the individual feelings&
MC# Jordan, who is Ms +na;
J$# She's a reall nice Ja!anese lad, who was fortunate and unfortunate& She
was fortunate that she survived the atomic )last, )ut she was unfortunate that she
was there& I went to *iroshima s!ecificall to meet her and to record the film at the
*iroshima 8eace Museum& I was introduced to Ms +na and Ms Ichimura, who's
her )est friend and served as a translator, through the ,orld $riendshi! Centre
who have a house around the corner from the *iroshima 8eace Museum& It was
started in 23.5 ) an American to !romote !eace and to s!read truth a)out
*iroshima and the atomic )last and as !art of their role to tell these stories and to
!ut !eo!le who are interested in touch with survivors&
-he were incredi)l (ind and generous and !ut me in touch with Ms +na& She
had onl started telling her stor when she was in her ver late 1/s, encouraged )
her famil to start tal(ing a)out it& She had never s!o(en a)out it at all& *er
grandchildren didn't (now anthing a)out her relationshi! with the atomic )last& *er
oungest children didn't (now&
I don't reall (now wh she "ust suddenl started to& I thin( she realised that she
didn't want to die without having s!o(en a)out it& She had "ust started right )efore I
met her, when I met her, and since then she's )een tal(ing a lot a)out it&
She's one of the (indest and most general !eo!le I've ever met in m life& She's
"ust incredi)le& I s!ent all da with her& I met her earl in the morning and didn't
leave there until F at night&
MC# -hese are incredi)l !ersonal accounts s!read through the Sites !ro"ect&
If an)od has an comments or 6uestions we'd welcome them&
*oman in the audience# I've a 6uestion for Roz& I was curious as to how ou deal
with that level of emotion that is !art of our film # )oth our emotion and the
emotion coming from our interviewed !artici!ants # it was ver a!!arent& I found
the film 6uite moving des!ite the fact that it was 6uite factual& I'd li(e to (now our
ta(e on this # how ou view that vis#a#vis the documentar or factual as!ect of it;
%M# It )ecame im!ortant to tr and find a wa to translate and communicate the
traumatic emotions that the !eo!le had& -here was this highl emotional state that
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the !eo!le were in, )ut there was also the lac( of emotion that was evident in the
!laces& Just loo(ing at those !laces, one wouldn't (now what had ha!!ened there&
A!art from the cemeteries, there are no memorials, and these are ordinar streets
with cars "ust hac(ing !ast, dail life going on&
I was wor(ing with the film to tr and weave some of the emotions that m
!artici!ants felt and some historic emotion& As for m own emotion I thin( a)out m
engagement with the !artici!ants, )ut I don't thin( a)out m own emotions& I feel
I'm a conduit, translating what's ha!!ening with them, what's ha!!ened with
!laces, and translating that into the film&
In this !articular !iece of wor( )ecause the're s!ea(ing to me in 8olish and I don't
have 8olish as a language I'm wor(ing with an inter!reter& -here's a level of
distance there& So I'm aware when I'm s!ea(ing with them, that what the're telling
me is traumatic )ut I am slightl distanced from it )ecause I'm not a)le to
immediatel understand what the're saing&
I'm sure it's the same for ever)od when ou're wor(ing with material> our "o) is
a)out translating something and re#wor(ing it& -he im!ortance in terms of emotion
is what ha!!ens to the audience& So I'm out of it now, it's )etween ou and them&
MC# All of ou are dealing with technolog and I thin( ever)od will )e interested
to hear a little )it a)out the !rocess of wor(ing colla)orativel and technical side of
ma(ing what loo(s li(e 6uite com!licated wor(s&
)JL$#,ith us it was a four wa colla)oration )etween us, sound designer -im
*arrison and animator Gaterina Athanaso!oulou& ,e had the original idea a)out
these geogra!hical !laces in *am!shire, )ut in terms of where it went we had to
wait and see what !eo!le came u!, with which was nice not (nowing how it was
going to turn out in the end&
It does also com!licate things a )it when ou have !eo!le doing an incredi)l
technical "o)& Bou can ma(e the mista(e of thin(ing that the can "ust wave the
magic wand, and some things "ust ta(e ages& $or instance the sound on our !iece
was recorded )inaurall on location, using two micro!hones that loo( li(e little
ear!hones that give a sense of the actual s!ace that ou're in& -his was then re#
recorded in a com!le9 set u! with s!ea(ers in different !ositons of a huge room
with the !resent site of memor at one end and then a !astHimaginar at the other&
-im then wal(ed )etween them with this micro!hone that he'd )uilt& I watched him
do that, ver intrigued, secure in the (nowledge that I couldn't !ossi)l have done it
mself&
-he animation ha!!ened more 6uic(l, even though I'm sure it was more time
consuming&
MC# Did ou s!ecif how the animation would loo(;
)L$# I had a num)er of em)roideries and old !hotogra!hic images& I gave all the
research material that we had, all the original !hotogra!hs, and a num)er of
different em)roideries, to Gaterina& -hen we discussed ideas, )ut I was 6uite o!en
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to Gaterina finding things within those elements and the film that Damian had
alread shot& ,e had long conversations a)out what imager she could use or
what might wor(& ,e wanted it to )e a reall colla)orative !rocess& I didn't want to
sa, 0!ut this here or !ut that there', it was much more a)out tal(ing a)out what
was in the e9isting wor(&
,ith -im we went on location and recorded sounds& -hen with the recording of m
grandmother, it was )ringing his inter!retation of the things she mentions into the
sound& ,e wanted to give him the s!ace to e9!eriment as well&
MC# So it was incredi)l colla)orative&
Jordan our wor( which is so different, it's so e9traordinar& ,hat degree was that
was that colla)orative;
J$# -he visuals weren't colla)orative at all& It's a sto! frame animation, made in
front of the *iroshima 8eace Museum loo(ing u! at the s(, a clear )lue s(&
-here's a slight white ghosting on the right hand side and I don't (now what that is&
I didn't (now that was there until I )rought the film )ac( here& All the )lac( flec(s on
it are from hand !rocessing& It's 21mm, hand !rocessed in )uc(ets& So all the )lac(
tears and holes are the emulsion of the film )eing ru))ed against itself through the
hand !rocessing& I forget how man rolls there were, )ut the film went through
man different versions&
-he sound recording was !rett colla)orative, )ecause I don't s!ea( an Ja!anese
at all, !ro)a)l si9 words, and so I was totall de!ending on Ms Ichimura& Also
Larr and Mar allowed me to record in the living room of the ,orld $riendshi!
Centre& So the colla)oration was a)out !ermission and access and time&
At no !oint was there an real technical colla)orative !rocesses involved, "ust lots
of social ones& ,ith the *iroshima 8eace Museum, I was a)le to negotiate with
them to film there and film the models& I filmed lots that I didn't use in the end& -he
reason it's a)stract is )ecause it's an overl familiar idea, the )om)ing of
*iroshima, and we have an idea in our heads what that is alread& So ou can't
reall re!resent that at all& I tried&
I (new that a)straction was going to !la a )ig !art in it, )ut I didn't (now that it was
going to )e the totalit of it& I was creating something that was a)stract, and the
)lac( scratches against the )lue s(ies created something s!acial that I'm reall
interested& It felt li(e that created s!ace for the stor to e9ist, the stor we're
familiar with )ut have no first#hand e9!erience of, )ut nonetheless is cruciall
im!ortant in our societ and our culture&
MC# It seemed to me that the sound was so much !art of the narrative&
J$# Most of it was recorded in *iroshima& It's field recordings and me !laing
around on the com!uter& Some of it was recorded in -o(o and some of it was
recorded here& -here are a lot of laers in the music& Again I struggled a long time
with this !iece to get to the !oint where I was a)le to not illustrate& I thin( that's the
hardest thing for ever)od here&
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MC# Roz, how long did ou s!end editing the film down and how did ou choose
which statements to leave out;
%M# I haven't included all of the testimon> I have tried to restrict it to what the
actuall saw& -here's this relationshi! )etween seeing and )elieving and there's a
moment in the film where one of the !artici!ants sas, 0,e saw it so we (now'& In
the interviews the all tal( a)out things !eo!le told them a)out, )ut I've onl used
what the actuall saw& It's criticall im!ortant )ecause that's how )elief and
(nowledge is formed, through seeing& $or me that's im!ortant as a visual artist& I
)elieve that the saw it, the can recount it in detail&
MC# -hen long hours of editing;
%M# I mainl edited it mself, and had a cou!le of sessions with Laura Malacart,
and a session with Luc *arris who's edited with me in the !ast, )ut it was man
hours of cutting it together&
It was a)out !airing it down and finding the essence of what I wanted to !ut in&
$or this film, unli(e a lot of m !revious films, a lot of the technical side of it was
solo& In the !ast I had film crews and truc(s of e6ui!ment, )ut for this I went out
"ust with Jerem who does the sound recording and I do the filming& I thin( that
ma(es a difference& It ena)led me to have an intimate engagement with the !lace
and with the !eo!le& So in a wa not having the funds to have a film crew has
actuall changed m !ractice in an interesting wa&
I have had some good colla)orations since I came )ac(& I wor(ed with Scanner on
the soundtrac(& *e's done a reall )eautiful "o), he reall got it& Also some)od I
have colla)orated with over the ears, Joe 8avlo, who does visual effects, did the
)eautiful )it where the ground )reathes&
Also a ver im!ortant colla)oration was with the Roma children in London to re#
voice the narrative& -hat came a)out from an event we had last summer when I
(new I had this material that no)od had ever recorded )efore and at that !oint I
wasn't sure how it was going to )e in the film& -he event was in colla)oration with
A!s Roma -raveller *istor Month in *ac(ne, and a num)er of agencies in
*ac(ne who wor( with Roma and travellers, @A=s, Roma su!!ort grou!s, and
we invited Roma from all over London to come and watch the interviews and had a
!anel discussion&
It was 6uite an e9traordinar night& 8eo!le started getting u! and tal(ing a)out their
own families' e9!eriences&
-hrough that event I met a lot of Roma families in London and that was critical
)ecause actuall it's ver hard to )uild those sorts of relationshi!s& -here's also an
issue of trust& After the event some of the families were coming u! and saing,
0,e'll hel! ou, what do ou need;' I was a)le to go )ac( a few months later and
sa, 0Actuall what I need is children to re#voice, I want to !ut some of the
testimon )ac( into the !resent tense )ut at the age that the were at'&
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I wasn't sure if it was going to wor( as a device, )ut engaging with the (ids and
their families was interesting in itself as a !rocess&
MC# Shona, our wor( is an ongoing investigation, which is ver much a
colla)oration& ,ould ou tal( a little )it a)out the colla)oration;
S'# -here's a long conversation with John -ulloch, and the wor( in a wa is !art of
that conversation& It's a wa of e9!loring, not "ust his em)odied e9!erience )ut
e9!loring how that intersects with the wa in which that event has !ermeated and
continues to have a !resence in societ&
Another !erson who I've )een wor(ing with recentl is someone called -o)ias
Reichen)ach who wor(s in the Bioengineering de!artment at Im!erial College
London& *e is !art of the Centre for Blast In"ur Studies and his !articular area of
research there is on auditor )last in"ur& I have 6uite e9tensive interviews with him
and am going to continue that conversation&
-here's also Andrew *os(ins who is an academic, whose area of research is in
media, conflict and memor& *e's done e9tensive investigations into the
relationshi! )etween media, memor and the 5H5 London )om)ings, and also into
what he would call the monumentalisation of that event through the !rocesses of
the coroner's in6uest& -he institution of the +n6uir !rocesse after a ma"or event
such as this, !articularl ) the State in an attem!t to reach a !oint of closure and
to create a cohesive narrative for an often traumatic event is interesting in that it
resists conflicts of memor&
=n the other hand the Coroner's In6uest !roduced this massive archive of
materials that are in the !u)lic domain and therefore can )e revisited& It is a
com!le9 situation&
So there are these conversations that continue through the !rocess of ma(ing wor(
which are im!ortant to me& -he don't necessaril determine the actual form of the
wor( I ma(e, )ut the are !art of the e9tended s!ace the wor( o!erates in&
I was struc( ) a num)er of things a)out the 5H5 London )om)ings& =ne was that
as three of the )om)s occurred underground, there was ver little visual
re!resentation of the e9!losions, and et iconic images were created, one of which
was of John -ulloch, which came to re!resent the event& ,e have s!o(en a lot
a)out the conse6uences of the use of that media image&
I also (new from tal(ing to John that he heard nothing when the )om) e9!loded, as
his eardrums were )lown& I was interested in this sudden ru!ture of the se!aration
)etween the inside world, his inside world and the outside world around him&
I sought out -o)ias Reichen)ach and in our conversations he tal(ed a)out the
tm!anic mem)rane, the eardrums, the !hsiological se!aration )etween the
outside world of sound and the inside world of the !erce!tion of sound and how
that's transformed inside the )rain&
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=ne of the results of John's eardrums )eing )lown, which is a common t!e of
)last in"ur is that he can no longer hear echoes& @ot )eing a)le to hear echoes
has a huge im!act on the wa ou e9!erience s!ace, ou get this massive
contraction of s!ace as we need to hear our own echoes in order to locate
ourselves&
-he e9!loration of echoes has o!ened u! other was of thin(ing a)out what
ha!!ened to John as a conse6uence of the )om)ings, which e9tends to wider
6uestions of the im!act of the )om)ings on wider societ and this continues to
inform our conversations&
-hat for me, that e9change, that ongoing conversation, rather than colla)oration, is
e9tremel im!ortant&
And there is also 8eter Gnight, who I wor(ed with on the animation for the film and
also Bevis Bowden who shot the video se6uences of John and the Cit&
MC# Last chance for an 6uestions or comments&
)L$# I'd li(e to sa something a)out Roz's wor(& I thin( she's !ic(ed u! on
something that is not discussed and is !ro)lematic when ou tr and tal( a)out it& I
thin( that the film is ver im!ortant )ecause of that& In +uro!e it's a huge !ro)lem
that there are all these sites where !eo!le were murdered and et the're in a
normal situation and there is no wa that anone (nows the're there& -here's this
hidden histor, !articularl for our communit that is visi)le in one wa and
com!letel invisi)le in another& I thin( the wor( that Roz has created reall sas
that&
MC# I thin( that's a)solutel right, and for me all the wor( is a)out memor and
forgetting and so on, )ut it's also a)out un(nowns for each of us I thin(& It's a)out
)ringing things to the surface in a wa that o!ens them to further e9!loration ) all
of us a)out this strange thing that is humanit&
)L$# It is this idea of )eing a)le to re!resent those sites in different was, and I
thin( each of the wor(s does that in a !otent wa& ,e've )een wor(ing alongside
each other, )ut not reall aware of what everone else is doing& It was reall great
to )e a)le to )e in the galler s!ace and ta(e on )oard the ideas in the other
wor(s& I'm s!ea(ing for mself )ut I found it a reall interesting !ro"ect to )e
involved in )ecause of that&
MC# It did seem that there's so man crossovers a)out sound, colour, and ur)an
and rural landsca!es, and then indeed the landsca!e that ou created as well&
-here was much that was shared&
A )ig than( ou to the Agenc, to CA8 London, Animate, to all of ou for coming
and to Shona, Roz, Jordan, Delaine and Damian !articularl for reall wonderful
wor( that will go on for a long time in its !otenc&
Sites of Collective Memory + htt,#--.it/ly-1h60vru
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