!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.

-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 4

Hamlets Mi nd
Issue 28 Apri l
2013

Mendacem memorem esse oportet


Before We Get Started.
First: Budgets are tight and travel costs are rising. Consequently, if you would like to explore
the possibility of having any of the courses listed below conducted in your area in the first half
of 2014, please contact me. The sessions can be structured toward a specific group or delivered
via an open enrollment format. The first four listed are the most recently developed courses:
Elicitation Techniques: Tier Alpha (conducted with Van Ritch)
The Narcissist, the Fraud and the Subsequent Interview
Allegations of Workplace Harassment Interviewing through the Labyrinth
Storytelling, Metaphors and Similes: The Gentle Art of Gaining Compliance
Rapport and the Interview Process Interviewer Ethics
Interviewing for Quality Information Persuasive Interviewing
Fraud Related Interviewing Investigative Discourse Analysis
Is That the Truth? How to Interview like the Dickens
Interviewing from Head to Poe Finding Shakespeare in the Interview
Interviewer Personality Dynamics Huh? Staying Focused during the Interview
Interviewing Generation ME!

Second: At the end of this issue I have placed the resume of an exceptionally sharp young
woman, Laura Harris, with a Masters of Accountancy and other, most notable professional
qualifications.
Third: I will be conducting a pre-conference session on Persuasion at the ACFE 24th Annual
Global Conference as well as two breakout sessions on Priming the Interviewing Pump. The
conference will be at the Aria Resort and Casino in Las Vegas, June 23 28, 2013. I hope to see
you there. In any case, if you are there, stop me and say hello. I most especially enjoy meeting
those who are interested enough in the interviewing process to read the newsletter.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 /


Transition Now to the Point
Interviewing Fundamentals:
Advice from an Interviewer
In one sentence you will find an interpersonal communication tip that interviewers know for a
certainty having application to the world at large. The previous issues contain items one through
eight.

9. Listen to everyone as if they were getting ready to tell you a secret.
Five Mistakes Interviewers Make
Last year, I was in San Francisco conducting a class for the ACFE. Amid the most
applicable requests coming from the floor, one participant stated, I would like to know the five
top mistakes interviewers make. In the subsequent issues, I will continue to address each
mistake one at a time. In the first of the series, we addressed mistake number one, the failure to
plan for the interview. In the second installment we examined mistake number two,
confirmation bias. In this segment, we will examine mistake number three, Settled into the
Interviewing Comfort Zone.
Sir Isaac Newtons first law of motion:

An object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. An object in
motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by
an unbalanced force.
This law is often called
"the law of inertia".
http://teachertech.rice.edu/Participants/louviere/Newton/law1.html
Now, for our purposes, the object described in Newtons first law is the professional
interviewer. So with our acknowledgements to Mr. Newton, lets have our first re-write read as
following:
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 9

A professional interviewer at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. A
professional interviewer in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in the same
direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
Secondly, the unbalanced force is identified, for our purposes, as the motivation to
improve. With that in mind, our final re-write will read as follows:
A professional interviewer at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by the motivation to
improve. A professional interviewer in motion continues in motion with the same speed and in
the same direction unless acted upon by the motivation to improve.

I am certain at this point if we were to visit the good scientists burial site at Westminster
Abbey, we would find him spinning in his grave now having discovered, post mortem, the law of
perpetual motion. That being said, and apologies made, the law is still applicable for a goodly
number of persons who are paid to communication with other people. They quickly find a
comfort zone and proceed to rest therein. That status may serve them well temporarily until they
face the challenges of an interview-skill-level-requirement falling outside of the parameter of
their comfort zone. Until and perhaps beyond the point wherein the greater demands occur, they
continue (move in a sense) forward at the same capability-level speed and in the same capability-
level direction unless . . . .
Now, that unless can originate from a couple of sources: in one case the interviewing
requisite dynamic is passing the interviewer by, the interviewer is experiencing diminishing
results and someone from management becomes the force that motivates the interviewer to
improve. More ideally, the interviewer recognizes that the subtleties of interviewing are
perishable skills if one does not use them, then one will lose them. Additionally, there is
always more to learn, new skills to incorporate and enhance. Consequently, this interviewer
takes it upon himself to make sure there is no comfort zone and continually endeavors to enhance
his knowledge, skill and abilities.
Know this: I have been at this a long time. I have interviewed and interrogated the best
of them. I have written four texts and have more coming. And here is what I know: I dont
know all there is to know about interpersonal communication. There is not a week that goes
by that I dont learn something new. I wont live long enough to know all there is to know.
The other thing I know is the best interviews I will ever conduct are in the future. I
am nowhere near as capable as I can be. Should I ever get to the point wherein I think that I
know it all or that my best interviews are behind me, that is the time I need to walk out of the
arena and saddle up on the Harley and ride on a continual, adventurous basis. Should it be that I
reach that point and fail to recognize the fact, I have a goodly number of brutally honest friends
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 :

in the profession who will have no hesitation regarding letting me know. If they tell me that
such is the case, I may not be happy to hear it but I will believe them and act accordingly.
The capability limitations of an interviewer reside in their mind. If they are willing to
stay in motion keep learning, keep practicing, keep improving then the quest can be a long
and enjoyable journey. On the other hand, resting in the comfort zone by thinking, I am good
enough is truly, sad enough - and sad enough on a lot of levels.
Questions from the field
Here are some follow-up issues from a participant in the ACFEs Advanced Interviewing
Course, conducted recently in Austin
Don:
I was particularly interested in receiving slides and had a question in Day 2, in the admission
seeking area. You were discussing Production of Deception clues, such as what it is that is in
this persons life that would make him feel guilt or fear.
Response: Okay, for purposes of discussion, as interviewers, we have taken away the options of
deception via concealment and the path of distortion from the interviewee. Now, all that remains
for the interviewee is deception via falsifying which has a much higher level of anxiety. The
individual could feel guilt because he has an internal core belief of right and wrong and their
initial act (be it fraud, rape, etc.) has violated that core belief.
Additionally, the individual could believe that lying is wrong and that too, could be anxiety
producing. All of that aside, the interviewee, constrained now to falsifying, realizes his own
vulnerability is moving onto thinner ice and his safety growing more threatened. Additionally,
his subjective norm, those that are important in his life and what they would think of his actions -
the crime and the subsequent falsification - can be a mitigating factor in the (anxiety related)
production of deception clues.

Don, I believe you said other than the pathological, you can get to these subjective norms. But
what/where can you learn what button not to push?
Response: Let's look at the whole concept of "button" in the frame of a car salesperson. This
person only has one car to sale. Customer concerns may be: payments, fuel efficiency,
durability, environmentally friendly or in my case, just how good I will look styling and profiling
as I drive the car. Consequently, the salesperson has to determine what is important to the
potential buyer from the list above and match the one car to the customer concerns. Don't talk
about fuel efficiency to someone who is worried if they can make the payments. That is the
wrong button. Rather, talk easy payments.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 ;

So that single car sale example transitions us to the interviewee before us in our line of
inquiry. You only have one "car" to sell - compliance. It may be that his subjective norm IS the
button or it could be that his "customer concerns" are more self-serving: punishment, loss of
position, psychological threat, loss of employment, etc. Finding the "button" requires getting the
individual to talk and to talk a lot. Listen to the pronouns - are they primarily first person,
singular or are they plural pronouns? Within the concept of "agreement power" let the
interviewee know that you "get" them. Having accomplished this step, consider tie-down or tag
questions to find the barrier to cooperation as often this barrier to cooperation, this concern, IS
the button. On our interviewing reality, "pushing" the button results in psychological distress
and "rubbing" the button results in psychological comfort. You will have to make the call as to
which way to "toggle" the button. For me, identifying the barrier and inserting a "comforting"
option that produces the desired outcome of the interview AND allows the interviewee to have a
"buy-in" in their own decision making (to cooperate) is the best of both worlds. This approach
involves the whole concept of re-framing that we addressed in the advanced course.
From a participant in a webinar that I recently conducted for i-sight:
Don
Thank you very much for your insights. Im busy reading your book on fraud related
interviewing and Im watching your webinar series on interviewing. The session on rapport,
particularly on the five senses and how we should use that, caused an a-ha moment for me. I
think its especially valuable for my team.
My team does pro-active fraud audits/fraud detection reviews with our general audit teams. We
visit the clients with our general audit teams during their walk throughs and determine if there
are any red flags that we need to investigate. At this stage there is no suspicion or allegation of
irregularities. My question is how to approach the interviewing with our clients (line business
management) to establish if there are specific areas that we need to focus on without raising
suspicions we usually do not tell the clients that we also do the fraud audits, because they
perceive it as an investigation (we try not to use these words fraud, red flag, suspicion,
irregularities) but what should we be using? I dont think we get all the info we should.
Any insights or suggestions will be much appreciated?
Response: First, thank you for you kind words. You made my day.

Second, with regard to getting more information via a walk through: think about enhancing the
teams' ability to utilize secondary questions particularly when they encounter (hear) modifiers
(also known as hedgers and qualifiers). These qualifiers indicate there are A-typical situations
(exceptions) and those A-typicals may provide a vehicle wherein fraud could be
undertaken. Too many direct questions in a walk through can raise the shields on the part of
those toward whom the questions are directed and can "give away" more information than
obtained. Additionally, note the elements of the operation, process, system about which people
are readily willing to offer information and compare/contrast that with the elements wherein
little, if any, information is voluntarily forthcoming.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 1


It is always a good idea to have a team collective information-recovery session right after the
walk through wherein impressions, thoughts, data, seemingly incidental "bits and pieces" of
information are placed on flip chart paper and processed through thoroughly. This information
can form the foundation of an interview-strategy for you to carry forward. For example: who
were the people that were verbose and engaging and who were the people that were reticent and
formal? What did you notice about this element of the operation? Having walked through, what
is it that you know? What is it that you don't know? Were there portions of the walk through
that just did not "feel" right?


The above are modifications that you can readily and relatively easily undertake. But if you are
wanting to take the teams ability to the gold standard with regard to obtaining information
within the interpersonal communication dynamic without asking direct questions, consider
training in elicitation.
p.s. Think of the utilization of terms such as: assessment, review, appraisal, and an option I like
especially well, is your own walk through.

I hope something in this response can assist.

The Elicitors Edge
To those of you out there, arduously practicing the elicitation techniques we have
addressed in class and in our field exercises: greetings. And I trust the words, arduously
working, most certainly apply to you. As Van Ritch and I emphasize in class, these are indeed
perishable skills and will atrophy as a result of neglect.
I have recently been endeavoring to enhance my skills with regard to the utilizations of a
varying combination of:
! ? __
While it comes as no surprise to me that the more I employ the techniques the more
subtly the applications present and the less salient are the transitions. But the conversational
development that never ceases to amaze me is what people will share with me.
Most recently, the elicitation opportunities that have developed for me have been
standing in line at the grocery store, waiting in the lobby of a theatre, getting blood drawn as part
of my annual physical, the wait-staff personnel at a restaurant while on the road and the IT
professional who helped me get set up before speaking at a training session to a group in a large
auditorium.
Remember our class setting admonition: It is more important to be interested than
interesting.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 5

You know, you invested a goodly amount of time and money to take the class. Only you
can make that a good investment. Van and I set the stage, presented the applications and
knocked off some rough edges via the in-the-field applications. Only you can transition the
mechanics into an art. Van and I are continually on a track to maintain and enhance our levels of
proficiency. How about you?

Interviewing related article from a professional in the field
This is the third in a series of three articles from my good friend, Steven Cole. My thanks
to Steven for his most informative contribution.
Suit and Tie, Briefcase, Optional
This is the last article in a series of articles written for Dons readers, where I have made the
argument that the military approach of counter-intelligence is a perfect and complete fit of
tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs) with Corporate Americas need to address the security
of their assets from soup to nuts, covering all external and internal threats.
This last installment will be a focus on interviewing and its kinesics or non-verbal cues, as I see
it through my high-mileage rose-colored lens, of the psychology and physiological evidence and
artifacts of what the fraudster may physically do in an interview process, and why we, as
investigators and auditors, might not pick-up on the body language cues of deception. While
there is not one perfect check list, there are many approaches to collecting anomalies of behavior
that fall outside any persons baseline of actions and reactions.
Why dont we see the cues?
Men have a 6 degree field of functional vision. Women have 11 degrees. For a man its similar to
looking with one eye through the diameter of a quarter held at arms length. That is it. That is all
you really see, real-time. Your brain does not like chaos and so it paints in the surrounding room
or landscape from files of what this room or similar room look like in your memory, regardless
of when the memory was created. It is a forum that can cause a cognitive illusion.
Not wanting to spend too much time on the notion that cognitive illusions arise by way of
interaction with our brain assumptions about the world, save to say; your brain does not like
chaos and will lie to you, if it does not perceive a threat of physical harm to you. Our brain only
has memory file folders of what we have seen, heard or felt. If you are not looking at anything
directly contained within your functional field of view, then you brain does not see it and your
brain will fill in any missing piece of the overall image with a memory image piece.
i
Suffice it to
say, if there is a slight change in the documentation of a suspected fraud case and you have
become bored or stressed over the investigation AND it is the third or fourth document we have
looked at in series, we might not notice any changes and during an interview we might not notice
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 .

changes in the interviewees body language. We must continually scan when on the lookout for
non-verbal communications.
During the interview process, we must be prepared to be objective. We seek only the truth, but
you are now aware that your brain will fill in any portion of observation that you do not focus on,
so it is imperative that we practice seeking the truth and not accepting what our brains may offer
as the truth. Everyone wants to tell the truth unconsciously. And it is this unconscious need that
brings us to the understanding of the power of kinesics and how kinesics, combined with other
observable events, like biometrics and proxemics, can be used by an interviewer. I will save
biometrics and proxemics events for another time.
Kinesics cues can be strong tale-tell indicators as long as you have a firm understanding of
intercultural communications awareness. Should you find yourself overseas, team interview with
a local associate. If you are interviewing, here in the United States, and the people you are
talking to are not new to America, kinesics is another good technique in your panoply of
approaches to a fraud-related interview.
Body language, paralanguage, and kinesics have all been used to describe the family of non-
verbal communications. Numerous books and videos have been produced to explain the whys,
but here, we are going to explore the surface of the whats, wheres and hows, connecting them to
the event. If you practice, it will be a skill set that you can hone and, it will never turn offso
be careful how you use this with your friends and family!
We know the brain, at the unconscious level, wants to tell the truth. We know that the fraudster
has made a conscious choice to act untruthfully. As interviewers, we can observe clusters of non-
verbal communication that could possibly alert us to areas of an interviewees story that may be
deceptive. Take care in observing three or more communications, as the stress of an interview for
the interviewee can change the behavioral baseline of the interviewee.
In looking for clusters of movements we may be able to determine the veracity of the statement
being given. Subsets of observing kinesics are:
Emblems substitutes for words or phrases
Illustrators accompany or reinforcing verbal messages
Regulators control of the flow and pace of communication
Affect Displays shows emotion
Adaptors release of physical or emotional tension
All of the above subsets are involved, requiring a deep dive into where and when they will
manifest themselves and what it most likely means during the interview. I give them to you for
reference as you explore more into our tradecraft. In this article, we are only going to scratch the
surface of reading kinesics and what the thought processes of the interviewee are most probably.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 3

Kinesics is non-verbal communication carried out at the lowest level of awareness or
unconsciousness. (I dont agree personally with the notion of a subconscious level in the mind.
For me there is conscious choice or deliberate thought, the limbic system in our brain focused on
our survival at the unconscious level, and the brain stem and spine unconsciously working at
heart beats, breathing, processing food intake, etc. I think you would go insane should you
have to think about breathing. And how would you keep it straight? Ok, breathe in, heart beat,
breathe out, heart beat, no wait! Heart, beat twice, and then breathe in, no! I mean breathe out)
Communications to you, the interviewer, starts with the meeting or greeting. If you shake hands,
what does the interviewee tell you about their relationship to you? Is their handshake firm with
two or three pumps? Do they bring their hand up to your eye level in a Stuka-style dive bomber
approach to your hand? Do they wait for you to extend your hand and roll your hand on top or
maybe roll you hand on top and then place their left hand on top of your hand? All of these
movements have an unconscious meaning (unless the interview is trying to deceive you with a
kinesics-type cue. Again, three of more cues are required for you to take note and it will need to
be clustered around an item of relevance. And they will show!
Handshakes are used to set the stage of the relationship, much how posture does. If I shake your
hand, firmly, both our palms facing in, two or three pumps and then release; I show respect and
find you to be an equal or peer. If I bring my hand up into your eye level with my palm facing
down, you will unconsciously bring your hand into a docking position, palm up in a subservient
or surrender position. I have just told you I believe myself to be your superior. Same idea if
while shaking I roll my hand on top, palm down. If I offer my hand palm up, you will
unconsciously shake my hand with you palm down and I have given you the psychological
stroke of being dominate and in chargeuntil I place my left hand on top of yours and trap your
hand in the embrace. As the interviewer, we now know our going in point, do we not? Start
watching how this works around you at your office, house of faith or even the grocery store. As
people greet each other with a hand shake they betray their perceived relationship.
Any interviewee trying to deceive you is making a conscious effort to do so, that is why the
kinesics cues in clusters can tell the tale of truth, if only we but notice.
Starting with the top of the head and going down to the feet. I wont touch on all of the kinesics
cues, but will give you a working knowledge of applying your tradecraft to areas of the
interviewee that might draw your notice.
Eyebrows. If they are arched; surprise or wonderment. Possible, the interviewee is showing the
neutral position of no eyebrow movement. Pinched, the eyebrows display the anger muscle or
pain muscle. Associate this communication with an event or a situation the interviewee has
feelings of anger or pain, real or imagined.
Eye movement. What hasnt been written about this?!? The cleanest approach uses the eye
movement to determine what kind of learner and communication style is most comforting to the
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 42

interviewee. But that is not to say that eye movement is not a cue to be considered in a cluster of
kinesics communications. A person who looks up to recall information is a visual learner. Side-
to-side, auditory learners and folks that look down are accessing their emotions. Remember that
eye motion that is down or down right with a thoughtful response is in an area of truth, if, and
only if, the emotions are being drawn from the left and or hippocampus (central /memory) areas
of the brain. Right brain functionality is associated with creativity, so as you are looking at the
interviewee, their eyes moving down and towards their left leg is most probably mental
construction.
When the interviewee recalls the event, they should reference the type of memory file folder they
have for the event. What the event looked like, what was heard or how did it make the
interviewee feel. These eye movement cues will allow you to ask questions of the interviewee in
their comfort zone, using their lexicon. You can build communicative rapport by asking the seer,
What did you see? Should you observe the side-to-side eye motions, you can ask, What did
you hear? or What did they say? Looking down opens the interviewee to be asked, How did
that make you feel?
Rapid un-natural blinking, very quick, very short duration, possibly to clear the Etch-a-Sketch of
the creative mind to redraw the picture or retell the deception.
Smiling is natural, but smiling during an interview at times of recounting an event could cause
you to question the veracity of the statement. Point: Jodi Arias as she describe the attack on her
boyfriend; how the horrible scene unfolded before her and the brutality of the murder, she is
smiling ever so slightly. And it is a real smile, uneven. Fake smile are symmetrical. Look at
photos of anyone. Your brain notices, unconsciously, that the smile is fake, contrived and
hollow. If the smile is perfect, it is practiced. In later interviews, Ms. Arias smiles throughout,
not so much during the trial.
Touching your face, rubbing your forehead, the area that is just in front of your prefrontal cortex,
the executive area of the brain, means you are sifting through the information, trying to work it
out. This is good, but could be bad if your eyes are directed into a construction creative area of
focus. Touching your face around your nose or rubbing or pinching the nose might be an non-
verbal communication between the body and the brain resulting from the brain wanting to tell the
truth, being embarrassed that it is hearing you lie and the hair inside your nose and possible other
areas of the body (the back of the neck) are goose bumped by the small arrector pili muscles that
surround all hairs on the body. It causes the nose to tickle. It causes you to rub your neck, giving
us the comment of being a pain in the neck. Your hypothalamus, part of your limbic system in
your brain is heating up, warning you that you are lying causing histamines to produce possible
flushing of the neck and face, the mouth dries out. All possible reactions to one who hears
themselves lie or use deception.
The primary forms of the use of deception general come in five identifiable areas:
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 44

Lies making up information that is not truth
ii

Equivocations making an indirect, ambiguous, or contradictory statement
Concealments omitting information that is relevant to the context or engaging in
behavior that hides relevant information.
Exaggerations overstatement or embellishing the truth to a degree.
Understatements downplaying or minimizing certain aspects of the truth
In the interviewees brain, the prefrontal cortex is making a conscious effort or choice to deceive
and the limbic system of the interviewees brain is trying to warn the interviewee of the deviation
of the truth, crazy, but true!
Covering ones mouth while answering is a possible cue that what is coming out is untrue.
Covering ones eyes to try and not see the true picture of the remembered scene or actions
taken while speaking the words that are in conflict with the truth.
Movement of the whole head will mostly follow the truth. Consider former President Clintons
statement regarding Ms. Lewinsky. As the President says he did no wrongdoing, his head is
nodding up and down in the motion of yes. In a more recent 60 Minutes interview with Present
Obama and the former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, when asked about the relationship
between the two, President Obama spoke of how strong, supportive, and smooth the relationship
was between them, after the bitter confrontation between them during the Democrat Presidential
primary. Secretary Clinton agreed giving a glowing account of the strong bond between them, all
the time she was shaking her head, no, not really.
Hands clinched in fists, interviewee is agitated and leaning towards a fight. Pointing your finger
at me or you is an act of aggression; it is lecturing a subordinate (recall President Clinton
lecturing the American public regarding his actions with Ms. Lewinsky?). Looking at ones
watch, even just rubbing the area of the wrist that a watch is worn will convey the message that
your time is up.
Crossing of the arms may communicate an unwillingness to listen or to be listened to. Or the
interviewee might be coldagain, one kinesics cue means nothing, a cluster of three or more,
should provoke more probing by the interviewer.
Posture can play an important part. Slouching displays contempt for the interviewer. Slouching
does not take three or more cues to decipher, as it is not about deception but how the interviewee
sees the interviewer. Crossing of the legs at the ankle may communicate the willingness to not
leave the area. Crossing the legs at the knees can communicate a closure to anything you say or
possible the interviewee has a sore back and crossing the legs put him or her in a more
comfortable position. Both feet planted on the floor facing you, you would seem to have their
undivided attention. A foot pointed away, they want to be somewhere else or are mentally,
already somewhere else. A foot pointed towards the exit (which should be behind them, if you
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 4/

have set the interviewing room up in a non-threatening fashion) communicates they desire to
leave. If a foot starts to tap, they are walking away from you, mentally. Fast tapping, they are
running. The chair reversed and straddled by the interviewee puts a barrier of protection (the
back of the chair) between the two of you.
One truism of kinesics is the rule that the farther way from the brain a body part is, the less likely
the liar can control it all of the timeyou got it, the feet are the first to react in an autonomic
fashion.
Kinesics cues in clusters, combined with biometrics and proxemics can provide you with
additional interviewing tools with which to engage your interviewing techniques of open and
closed ended questions, persuasion, rapport, etc. The above cursory coverage of autonomic non-
verbal communications is easily the part of the iceberg visible above the waterline.
I am drawing your attention to the use of these techniques as a Warning Order. I feel there is a
tsunami coming. A time of insider threat of the likes we have never seen. In fact, it is probably
underway, just not quite on the radar. It is an observation drawn of the current workforce and the
obsession many seem to have with themselves and their internal thought processes that entitled
them to things they have not earned and their seemingly indifference to truth and self-awareness
in a society that is continuing to glamorize sticking it to the Man.
This subject of the insider threat potential growth in its depth is a why we must keep our skills
sharp regarding interviewing, I would like to peak your interest in the motions that seem to be
going on behind the curtain of business as usual in Corporate OZ.
For a moment, lets consider the pressure and rationalization areas of Donald Cresseys Fraud
Triangle.
Pressure has been described as the motivation behind the criminal act of fraud. Motivation seems
to be a dominant psychological feature of the human existence. Motivation could have additional
roots into the behavioral and cognitive areas of the brain. The basic and base human desires to
optimize well-being, minimize physical pain, and maximize pleasure seem to define motivation
as the psychological purpose and cause of an action.
iii

Motivation comes riding two horses: intrinsic (internal) motivation and extrinsic (external)
motivation. Intrinsic motivation studies have existed since the early 1970s with a primary goal
of defining the driving force behind students and workers, who rely upon an internal reward
system to gain interest or enjoyment in the very task or action taken. Students found to be
intrinsically motivated were more likely to engage in a task willingly as well as working to
improve and gain a larger skill set, if they thought it would increase their capabilities.
iv

Motivation of the extrinsic kind seems to be pushing to achieve a desired outcome, regardless of
intrinsic motivations. Rewards are extrinsic motivators. Bonus money, grades, and public praise,
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 49

even the threat of punishment following misbehavior (remember this one!!!) are examples of
common extrinsic motivations. Competition, real or imagined, can motivate the employee to
outsmart, to win and to beat others at the game, not simply to enjoy the intrinsic rewards of the
activity, but to receive the trophy or the sound of the cheering crowd or possibly the bragging
rights or status achieved with other criminals and street-level environments.
v

vi

When comparing intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, some social psychological research has
been drawn to the idea that extrinsic rewards can lead to over-justification, conceptually; the idea
that expected external incentives such as money, winning, a job, prizes, etc. decreases a persons
intrinsic motivation to perform the task.
vii
If the extrinsic motivation is, regardless of outcome,
you are the winner or everyone is a winner, then the value of the activity decreases and we
start down the slippery slope of possible feelings of entitlement and seemingly increasing culture
of narcissism.
So what does that mean to us? What happens if the very notions of creating rationalizations to
complete Cresseys Fraud Triangle are eclipsed by a growing population of entitled narcissists?
The Pressure Motive and Rationalization are combined into one possibly prevalent mindset. If
this seems scary, it should. How many people have entered into the ranks of the employed
within American enterprises coming from the last two generations, that have been educated into
this entitlement of success. I think our companies are full of employees who have been subjected
to operant conditioning. B. F. Skinner coined the term as a method of learning that occurs
through the reinforcement of actions. This operant conditioning is possibly the root of actions
that many of our current workforces have been taught to exhibit each and every day.
viii

If the reward is due you and it requires you not to perform, then what is NOT available to you for
your taking? Taking it without any regard for motive or rationalization, the only ingredient
needed is opportunity.
If the opportunity is available, how does the fraudster appear to us, the auditor and the
interviewer? Will all employees be so similar in attitude that it becomes a hunt for the needle?
What do we do that allows us to miss the evidence and artifacts that the interviewee is deceiving
us? Well, it is not your fault that you dont readily see the cues. Science tells us, we are wired to
desire the truth. Telling the truth and hearing the truth are part of our unconscious physiological
character. Our eyes and ears perceive only a tiny fraction of information we are given and our
brain paints in or paints out most of the pieces of the puzzle before we cognitively know it.
We have only scratched the surface of seeing, hearing, and feeling what is true. We have many
areas of interest that will provide us insight into seeking the truth via an interview. Transactional
analysis, biometrics, proxemics, the psychological approach to criminal behavior, and a host of
very fancy sounding concepts should be our continued studies, gaining a better understanding of
the very complex human experience and how and why we interface with one another. I wish you
the very best at your endeavors.
!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 4:

Should you or your organization want more focused training on the science and art of fraud-
related or audit-related interviewing, please visit me at www.interview-academy.com or call me
at 972.333.4895.
1
Mark A. Changizi, Andrew Hsieh, Romi Nijhawan, Ryota Kanai, Shinsuke Shimojo (2008) Perceiving the Present
and a Systematization of Illusions. Cognitive Science 32(3): 459503. Eagleman, D. M. (2001) Visual Illusions and
Neurobiology. Nature Reviews Neuroscience. 2(12): 9206. Purves, D., Lotto, B. (2002) Why We See What We Do:
An Empirical Theory of Vision. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates.
1
Griffith J. 2011. Why do people lie? The Book of Real Answers to Everything!
1
Schater, Daniel (2011). PSYCHOLOGY. United States of America: Catherine Woods. p. 325.
1
Wigfield, A., Guthrie, J. T., Tonks, S., & Perencevich, K. C. (2004). Children's motivation for reading: Domain
specificity and instructional influences. Journal of Educational Research, 97, 299-309.
1
Dewani, Vijay. "Motivation". slideshare. Retrieved 22 March 2013.
1
Danbey, Dean A. (2004) Crime Types: A Text/Reader. The Wadsworth Series in Criminological
Theory:Thompson/Wadsworth Press. pp 151-154.
1
Lepper, M. R.; Greene, D.; Nisbett, R. E. (1973). "Undermining children's intrinsic interest with extrinsic reward:
A test of the 'overjustification' hypothesis". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 28 (1): 129137.
1
Cherry, Kendra. "Introduction to Operant Conditioning". About.com. Retrieved 22 March 2013.


Book Recommendations
My texts (and no one should ever be without them): The texts I have currently in publication
are: Interviewing and Interrogation, 2
nd
edition. Fraud Related Interviewing, Persuasive
Interviewing and Investigative Discourse Analysis 2
nd
Edition. They can be ordered directly from
Carolina Academic Press. (919) 489-7486 or online at http://www.cap-press.com or
www.amazon.com

Below are the texts I have read since the last issue:
Antifragile, Nassim Nicholas Taleb;
The (Honest) Truth about Dishonesty, Dan Ariely;
The Righteous Mind, Johathan Haidt;



Note: Stay tuned as I will soon be announcing courses that will be delivered via webinars,
online, blended and one-on-one interview coaching.

Until the June issue, keep asking, keep looking and keep listening. The answer is there.

Don

p.s. Dont forget to check out the resume on the next page.

!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 4;



Laura Harris
16 Deanwood Circle
Asheville, NC, 28803
Cell: 828.283.1228
LauraHeleneHarris@gmail.com
SUMMARY OF QUALIFICATIONS
Master of Accountancy and Liberal Arts Bachelor; CPA candidate with intent to pursue CFE
RELEVANT EXPERIENCE
Graduate Assistant, Western Carolina University Fall 2012 - Present
! Research for paper on statistical relationships between editors and writers in management
journals for Dr. Leroy Kauffman
! Support Nancy Wike, CPA, Director of Grants and Contracts with University, with grant use
assessment and interdepartmental invoices
! Provide principal investigators with monthly budget statuses, including summary of funds,
detailed transactions, and labor
! Activate, revise, analyze, and close out grant funds
! Proficient in Microsoft Access

Treasurer, Warrior Service Dogs Winter 2011 - Present
! Active member, strategizing short and long term organizational goals
! Control books and financial transactions, including donations, monthly purchases, and bank
reconciliations
! Event support

Volunteer, United Way Winter 2011
! Audited cash donations from winter campaign to reconcile in accordance with internal controls
! Drafted cash and check donations deposits for bank
! Processed payroll deduction donations

EDUCATION
Western Carolina University - Cullowhee, NC Spring 2013
Master of Accountancy
! GPA 3.85

Rogers State University - Claremore, OK Spring 2007
Bachelor of Arts, Liberal Arts
! English and humanities
! GPA 3.37

!" $"%&'()&*)"+ ,-./0&1 2&*03&%%&' 4563&%06)"17.-6

!"#$%&'()*'+,&) ./.012103415 6$78 41

HONORS, ACTIVITIES
! Languages: Chinese-Mandarin (novice), Spanish (intermediate)
! Awarded the Dixon Hughes Goodman Scholarship
! AICPA, NCACPA, ACFE student member