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Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:44 pm
Enochian wrote:Ok how can someone learn about him?
Namdrol, do you have any good Internet or book sources?

There is a book by templeman that has his biography.


http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru

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http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by conebeckham Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:47 pm
Taranatha wrote a biography of him...http://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9788185102702
Taranatha was, in fact, said to be his incarnation.

May any merit generated by on-line discussion


Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by conebeckham Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:49 pm
NamdrolYou said Ghantapada's was the first known Completion Stage commentary for
Chakrasamvara....but didn't Luipa write on the completion stage as well? My understanding was
that Luipa was the first or earliest of the Chakrasamvara Siddhas. Some say he "discovered" the
tantra itself?
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

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by Malcolm Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:38 pm


conebeckham wrote:NamdrolYou said Ghantapada's was the first known Completion Stage commentary for
Chakrasamvara....but didn't Luipa write on the completion stage as well? My
understanding was that Luipa was the first or earliest of the Chakrasamvara Siddhas.
Some say he "discovered" the tantra itself?

Yes, but that does not mean he wrote down completion stage instructions. AFAIK, he just
composed a sadhana.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
Posts: 12981
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by conebeckham Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:15 am
Luipa does have the Four Great Yogas, which are completion stage practices, I think.
Tsong Khapa commented on them, I believe, as well.
I don't know if they're an existing lineage though. Seems the Gelukpas practice Ghantapa's

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Completion stage, mainly....I don't know about the Sakya practice, though I think it's based on
Luipa's?
Kamtsang Kagyu practice is based on Luipa and Krishnacharya, though it's a unique transmission
stemming from Marpa and subsequent masters.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:42 pm
conebeckham wrote:Luipa does have the Four Great Yogas, which are completion
stage practices, I think.
Tsong Khapa commented on them, I believe, as well.
I don't know if they're an existing lineage though. Seems the Gelukpas practice
Ghantapa's Completion stage, mainly....I don't know about the Sakya practice, though
I think it's based on Luipa's?
Kamtsang Kagyu practice is based on Luipa and Krishnacharya, though it's a unique
transmission stemming from Marpa and subsequent masters.

The Sakya school has three separate transmissions of Cakrasamvara, and three separate traditions
of Vajrayogini.
All of the Cakrasamvara transmissions come through Naropa. They are Luyipa, Ghantapada and
Krishnacarya. Of these, the Luyipa and Krishnacarya traditions are more widely practiced. And of
these two, the Krishnacarya tradition is the most popular. It also has the largest number of
commentaries.

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The Ghantapada tradition is more emphasized in the Gelug school, this tradition nevertheless
comes from Sakya.
As far as the completion stage practice of Luyipa goes, Luyipa did not write a completion stage
text. There are only five or six texts attributed to him in the Tengyur. This does not mean he did
not have completion stage instructions -- it just means he did write them down. Luyipa's disciple
was Darikpa, and Darikpa's disciple was Ghantapada.
You are correct, Tsongkhapa did write a commentary on completion stage of this system.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Enochian Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:11 am
Namdrol wrote:The yogas underpinning the mahmudra movement and tantras and
their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by
Ayurveda, etc.
N

Why do you say this?

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Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?


There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.
Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:41 pm
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The yogas underpinning the mahmudra movement and
tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and
are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.
N

Why do you say this?


Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things are found in
the pre-buddhist Upanishads.
N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by dzoki Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:16 pm
Namdrol wrote:That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by
Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled,
new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and
being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother
tantras when they came to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang ba'i snying
po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po
also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it said to be just
like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.
Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at present we
have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was
supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have
practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing obstacles and gaining
benefits.
Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? In Dudjom Tersar there is
a tummo associated with Kilaya, so it would be interesting to know whether the same goes for
kama lineage.
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:24 pm
dzoki wrote:
Namdrol wrote:That is an interesting question. We actually have
complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing
concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using
cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India.
It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they
came to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang


ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po

Nope.

also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it
said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.

Supposedly, according to Dudjom, this is the base of Lamdre.

Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at
present we have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu.
The third one was supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with
yantras and tsa lungs (which have practices with channels and chakras), second is
dealing with removing obstacles and gaining benefits.

Very hard to date these texts.

[/quote]
Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? [/quote]

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Not that I know of.


http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
Posts: 12981
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Enochian Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:40 pm
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The yogas underpinning the mahmudra
movement and tantras and their terminology as we know
have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by
Ayurveda, etc.
N

Why do you say this?


Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

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Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things
are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.
N

I thought you were going to hit me with some common origin of both the Buddhist and Hindu
chakra systems!
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.
Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by adinatha Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:53 pm

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Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote:
Why do you say this?
Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vyus in Ayurveda etc., all of
these things are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.
N

I thought you were going to hit me with some common origin of both the Buddhist
and Hindu chakra systems!

Bonpo. Just kidding, maybe, not really, I don't know.


CAW!

adinatha
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by dzoki Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:40 pm
Namdrol wrote:

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dzoki wrote:
Namdrol wrote:That is an interesting question. We actually
have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century
expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap
yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from
Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that
tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came
to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in


dpal gsang ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud
chen po

Nope.

also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this


stuff, since it said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many
respects.

Supposedly, according to Dudjom, this is the base of Lamdre.

Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels,


unfortunately at present we have only two of the three texts regarding this
topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was supposed to deal with the
tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have
practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing
obstacles and gaining benefits.

Very hard to date these texts.

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Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? [/quote]


Not that I know of.[/quote]
Definitely dpal zla gsang thig le rtsa ba'i rgyud has a short passage on tummo, also sgyu 'phrul
rgya mtsho rgyud has the following passage, according to Gyurme Dorje's translation:
There are the upper and lower doors (of the body)
Which, transformed through particular vital energies.
Bring forth pristine cognition.
These are the very skillful means
Which both eject and draw in (vital energy):
The "cow of space" is milked
By the motion of the vital energy of fire
In the three "life-giving trees" with their three centres.
And this is known as the aspect (of skillful means)
Associated with the upper (door).
By developing the fivefold sequence of "enlightened mind"
Which, in three steps. Is drawn in,
The nature in which the sixteen levels are obtained
Becomes co-emergent, so that the path of release
Is effected through control (of the seminal fluid).
So it is quite clear that also tantras of mahayoga have teachings on tummo. By the way, who were
the guys who complained about the new tantras?
dzoki
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:16 pm
dzoki wrote:
Definitely dpal zla gsang thig le rtsa ba'i rgyud has a short passage on tummo, also
sgyu 'phrul rgya mtsho rgyud has the following passage, according to Gyurme Dorje's
translation:

It is hard to date these texts too. So we really cannot say anything conclusive with regard to gtum
mo based on these texts. Further, we know that karmamudra practices predate gtum mo. So,
pranyama combined with karmamudra practices are present from a very early period. The point
is, however, we don't know when gtummo practices entered Tibet.

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Quite early, if we accept most of the Kilaya tantras, etc as authentic. If not, then quite late.
Davidson, I believe as reference to this fact.
N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
Posts: 12981
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:34 pm
Update:
Have been working on an interesting text by Sakya Pandita on the history of Cakrasamvara.
According to this history, the first human being to receive Cakrasamvara was Saraha I, the teacher
of the tantric siddha, Ngrjuna. In terms of when Saraha lived, he does not really say, apart from
asserting that Saraha is present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as
a sambhogakya.
Luhipa was the disciple of Saraha II aka Shavaripa. Sapan definitely situates him during the reign
of the famed Buddhist king of Bengal, Shri Dharmapala, whose reign extended circa 775 to 810
CE.

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Luihipa was a scribe in the court of Dharmapla until he met Savaripa. We do not know when
Luhipa was active during this 35 year period, but since his retreat was 9-12 years, and since legend
holds that Dharmapla became a disciple of Luhipa, we assume a later date for Luhipa and put his
encounter with Dharmapla around 810. Supposedly Dharmapla left his kingdom and took a job
as a pounder of rice in what is now known as Orrisa becoming known as the siddha Demgipa.
From Demgipa on, a significant feature of Cakrasamvara practice is the requirement that high cast
practitioners take low caste occupations under low cast woman.
In any event, we have a fairly firm range to date the Cakrasamvara tantra from -- given this we can
presume that the Cakrasamvara must date to the early 8th century CE. Since it mentions the
Guhyasamaja and a number of other tantras, we can date those, as well as Saraha I, the first
Siddha, to the late 7th century CE.
Also Situ Panchen asserts that Lohipa revealed the Yoginisamcarya tantra, which details the
process of the sadhana practice.
This has a happy consequence for the Mahamudra text in the Vima Nyinthig which mentions
Saraha by name.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
Posts: 12981
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Enochian Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:55 pm

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Namdrol wrote: present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra
Pradesha as a sambhogakya.

You mean right now?


I've been there!
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.
Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Enochian
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:05 pm
Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote: present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in
Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakya.

You mean right now?


I've been there!

Indeed, right now and for as long as the sun and moon exist.
N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by conebeckham Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:18 pm
Thanks, Namdrol...any chance your work will be published? Shri Chakrasamvara is a primary
interest of mine.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham
Posts: 2847
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by Malcolm Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:27 pm

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conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Namdrol...any chance your work will be published? Shri


Chakrasamvara is a primary interest of mine.

Only here or on my blog.


http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?
-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

Malcolm
Posts: 12981
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
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Re: Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras


by conebeckham Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:29 pm
I'll keep my eyes open, then....! thanks.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.

conebeckham
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