1
2
3
4
IN RE:
6
7
No. 10-BK-31607
VOLUME VI-B
AFTERNOON SESSION
MONDAY, JULY 29, 2013
8
9
10
11
12
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14
15
16
APPEARANCES:
On Behalf of Debtor:
GARLAND S. CASSADA, ESQ.
Robinson Bradshaw & Hinson, PA
101 North Tryon Street, Suite 1900
Charlotte, North Carolina 28246
17
18
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21
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1535
APPEARANCES (Continued):
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4
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1536
APPEARANCES (Continued):
On Behalf of Interested Parties:
2
Carson Protwall LP:
3
4
5
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7
8
9
10
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12
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14
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17
Creditor Committees:
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1537
APPEARANCES (Continued):
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
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1538
APPEARANCES (Continued):
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
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12
Future Asbestos Claimants:
13
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1539
I N D E X
2
3
4
DIRECT
CROSS
REDIR
RECROSS
William E. Longo...............1540...1622,1631.....1627
James H. Shoemaker...1634.....1649,1689..1651,1711...1691
5
6
7
E X H I B I T S
8
9
10
ADMITTED
GST-15518......................................1688
GST-15570......................................1716
11
12
13
14
ACC-3781......................................1688
ACC-5063A.....................................1688
ACC-3783......................................1688
ACC-3785......................................1688
ACC-5063B.....................................1688
ACC-10000.....................................1716
ACC-10001.....................................1716
15
16
17
ADMITTED
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
PAGE
Reporter's Certificate.............................1719
1540
Cross - Longo
1
P R O C E E D I N G S
3
4
THE COURT:
Mr.
MR. HARRIS:
THE COURT:
I believe Mr.
That's right.
again.
8
9
Harris.
Okay.
MR.
GUY:
We're still
10
CROSS-EXAMINATION
11
BY MR.
GUY:
12
Q.
I represent
13
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
19
A.
I think so.
20
Q.
21
you?
22
A.
I have not.
23
Q.
24
25
issues.
1541
Cross - Longo
1
Hodges.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Asbestos fibers?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
dust.
not?
Yes, sir.
That
10
A.
11
released.
12
gaskets.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
Q.
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
correct?
20
A.
July of 2001.
21
Q.
22
23
it Mr.
24
A.
25
Boelter or Mr.
Mr.
Was
Mangold?
And Mr.
Liukonen
1542
Cross - Longo
1
by telephone.
involved.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Q.
Just approximately.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
today?
18
A.
No, sir.
19
Q.
THE COURT:
21
22
MR. HARRIS:
Okay.
Thank you.
Harris.
24
25
BY MR. HARRIS:
Q.
Boelter
20
23
Longo.
1543
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Harris.
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
accurately.
A.
That is true.
Q.
True?
True?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
That's correct.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
That is correct.
19
Q.
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
23
A.
That is correct.
24
Q.
25
financial interests.
True?
1544
Cross - Longo
1
A.
it.
Q.
correct?
A.
But in the
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
That's correct.
24
Q.
25
A.
Yes, sir.
If
That's true.
1545
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
True?
Yes, sir.
10
11
A.
No, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
for me.
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
A.
That's correct.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
That is correct.
25
Q.
1546
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
All right.
11
12
13
A.
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
True?
Correct?
Say the
1547
Cross - Longo
1
A.
filter --
Q.
Is it true or false?
A.
amounts.
10
Q.
11
12
that true?
13
A.
14
Q.
15
correct?
16
A.
I agree.
17
Q.
18
A.
I agree.
19
Q.
20
correct?
21
A.
That's true.
22
Q.
23
study.
24
A.
That is correct.
25
Q.
Is
True?
True?
1548
Cross - Longo
1
designing them.
A.
1989.
Q.
litigation?
Yes, sir.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
correct?
16
A.
I have.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Right.
1549
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Right.
Q.
A.
I think Mr.
Hatfield has.
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
"abraded."
15
gasket; correct?
16
A.
17
18
the surface.
19
20
manufacturing.
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
I shouldn't say
1550
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
is that correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
exposures?
A.
I believe so.
Q.
20-minute samples?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
15
correct?
16
A.
17
18
approximately .8.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
correct?
Let's see.
I think it would be
1551
Cross - Longo
1
A.
No, sir.
release.
Q.
10
A.
That is correct.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
Hygienist.
15
Q.
16
A.
17
industrial hygienist.
18
19
hygiene.
20
Q.
21
respect to asbestos?
22
A.
23
24
25
Q.
That's correct.
Yes, sir.
1552
Cross - Longo
1
True?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Yes, sir.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
That is correct.
20
Q.
21
22
True?
23
A.
24
25
them, that I'm aware of, to tell one from the other.
That is true.
True?
They're
1553
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
10
What I'm
11
12
13
14
15
characteristics.
16
new gaskets you can tell one from the other, primarily,
17
18
Q.
19
or confirm that.
20
A.
21
22
valves.
23
analysis.
24
25
every flange and valve we took that were removed from two
We have analyzed
We just
1554
Cross - Longo
1
you buy this Garlock, you can use this John Crane,
etcetera.
Q.
A.
pressure elevation.
So if
10
11
the material.
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
Only one.
18
Q.
Only one?
19
studies?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
That's different.
22
yet.
23
24
right?
25
A.
True?
That is correct.
1555
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
correct?
A.
That is correct.
10
Q.
11
correct?
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
14
the wire wheel was hitting the guard and that was what
15
16
17
came from hitting the guard, but you took the guard off
18
19
A.
20
21
burned up.
22
23
24
25
I also
But, in
1556
Cross - Longo
1
some sparks.
Q.
A.
Okay.
True?
10
11
was being pushed into the flange surface and burned the
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
were.
Is that true?
17
A.
That's true.
18
Q.
19
20
A.
Correct.
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
A.
But that
1557
Cross - Longo
1
bigger.
the gasket.
Q.
I'm sorry?
A.
Q.
I'm sorry.
10
11
12
A.
That's true.
13
that.
14
15
16
these 11,000 RPM grinders does not bias the data as shown
17
by your data.
18
Q.
19
20
the 1960s.
21
A.
22
23
Q.
24
25
True?
True?
1558
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Okay.
Yes.
10
11
A.
12
13
14
brush.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
Committee's experts.
21
22
during the '70s, '80s, and the first part of the 1990s.
23
True.
Okay.
True?
24
25
BY MR. HARRIS:
1559
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Q.
in
States
the '60s?"
10
A.
11
Q.
"Yes."
12
A.
"No.
13
14
15
tools."
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
20
But you did say that you used a brass wire brush
"All right.
"No."
21
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
25
1560
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
for the brass wire brush, for that are catalog number,
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
It may have.
10
Q.
11
12
about.
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
A.
That is correct.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
Correct?
True?
21
22
23
24
25
1561
Cross - Longo
1
material.
A.
That's true.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
the carbon steel wire wheel and the wire brushes was
16
17
18
A.
I do.
19
Q.
20
21
22
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
He
Correct?
1562
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
hardness testing.
Correct?
10
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
wheel.
19
it in a second.
20
21
22
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
25
1563
Cross - Longo
1
A.
No.
And I based
Q.
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
A.
I do not.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
16
17
18
Q.
Okay.
19
A.
20
21
22
cannot rust.
23
24
25
Mr.
Yes.
Shoemaker?
One,
So if you
Bronze
Shoemaker.
1564
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
the flange.
valves are ever used because the steam and because of the
to be a bronze.
Q.
I called Mr.
Okay.
Mr.
10
scientist; right?
11
A.
Well --
12
Q.
No.
13
a material scientist.
14
A.
15
piping.
16
Q.
17
A.
18
cannot rust.
19
Q.
20
21
expertise.
22
23
A.
That's true.
24
Q.
25
He's an expert in
1565
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's true.
Q.
True?
A.
Q.
That's true.
A.
10
11
damage it.
12
Q.
13
Mr.
14
15
16
A.
17
18
19
20
flange surface.
21
22
like Mr.
23
surface.
24
25
Okay.
Boelter's demonstration.
1566
Cross - Longo
1
what Mr.
Q.
wheel.
A.
I'm sorry?
Q.
A.
Q.
10
carbon steel wheel like the one that you used; correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
stainless steel.
17
Q.
18
they were?
19
A.
20
Q.
The ones that were brass and now bronze and then
21
22
A.
23
confusing.
24
25
That's true.
All right.
True?
1567
Cross - Longo
1
that up earlier.
Q.
week.
A.
No, sir.
Q.
10
11
12
13
A.
14
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
True?
24
A.
25
Q.
Okay.
But
1568
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
wheel that was too big for the guard that came on the
grinder; correct?
A.
He did.
Q.
hired.
10
11
12
13
the work.
14
is; correct?
15
A.
16
17
18
19
the results.
20
this grinder.
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
Okay.
Mr.
My side of
We said not to
1569
Cross - Longo
1
then he burns out the grinder the first time he uses it.
True?
A.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
you go out and you buy a new grinder that comes with a
And Mr.
So then
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
Now I don't say that's the best work procedure, but it's
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
gaskets?
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
No.
Holcomb also
Trying to
1570
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
Yes.
True?
I don't
10
required.
Correct?
11
A.
12
13
issues only.
14
hygienist.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
That is correct.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
That is correct.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
1571
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That is correct.
Q.
The flanges that you bought from Dr. Gay have been
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
Correct?
10
11
A.
12
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
That's possible.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
That is correct.
25
Q.
Correct?
1572
Cross - Longo
1
Correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
service.
A.
Correct?
No, sir.
That's
10
11
12
13
years; they could have been in ten years; they could have
14
been in 15 years.
15
stick.
16
Q.
17
18
19
True?
20
A.
True.
21
Q.
22
correct?
23
A.
He stated that.
24
Q.
25
Mr.
This, of course --
1573
Cross - Longo
1
installed; correct?
that effect?
A.
elasticity.
10
11
weathered.
12
That's
13
14
data for the gaskets that have been out of service for 19
15
16
17
18
19
20
see.
21
Q.
In your opinion.
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
correct?
In fact, the
True?
From the data.
If you
1574
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
at the surface.
gasket.
In some instances.
Correct?
10
11
12
13
Q.
14
15
A.
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
years; correct?
24
A.
25
Okay.
Because
1575
Cross - Longo
1
because of the heat and the nature, you don't see the
Q.
gasket fabrication.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
data.
Right?
11
A.
That is correct.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
16
misspoke.
17
Q.
18
want to be clear.
19
20
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
No.
If I did, I
Correct.
I just
It was.
1576
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Q.
Right.
Dr.
studied.
A.
Correct?
10
11
12
13
abraded or impacted.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
results.
21
22
23
24
elevated levels.
25
Q.
So, a
1577
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
employed.
manufacturing.
Is that true?
10
A.
11
Q.
12
13
learned last week when we went through the study that the
14
areas had not been cleaned for several days in the Dow
15
study.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
around it --
21
Q.
22
A.
I do recall it.
23
okay.
24
Q.
25
We
I recall that.
1578
Cross - Longo
1
A.
knocked around.
Q.
table; correct?
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
correct?
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
their report.
15
16
17
A.
18
19
Q.
20
21
gaskets where people are cutting off out gaskets all day
22
23
24
25
A.
No.
Sure.
Yes.
True?
1579
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Is it true?
A.
techniques.
that --
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
10
11
correct?
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
That is correct.
20
Q.
21
22
correct?
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
A.
That's correct.
True?
1580
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
minutes; correct?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
That is correct.
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
He is.
20
Q.
21
correct?
22
A.
23
Q.
24
got the results and sent the same flange and gasket
25
I believe he is.
Yes, sir.
1581
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
He hammered out
Correct?
10
fibers.
11
in a row in 22 minutes.
12
A.
13
14
15
there or not.
16
Q.
17
18
Right?
19
20
study.
21
found no results.
22
23
24
four.
25
If
1582
Cross - Longo
1
or not."
A.
Correct.
Q.
detect.
10
detect it or not."
11
That if
12
A.
True.
13
Q.
14
sample collection.
15
16
17
18
19
A.
20
Q.
21
22
23
24
Correct?
25
A.
Yes, sir.
1583
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
You have
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
certain about the brass flange and the bronze flange and
17
18
True?
This is a picture.
19
Actually,
20
21
22
A.
That's correct.
23
Q.
24
25
But
1584
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
Yeah.
off.
And
10
11
12
fully understand.
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
on them.
19
laboratory.
20
21
22
23
24
Q.
25
Yes, sir.
I think you
Is that correct?
We were trying to look at that.
Where
The
1585
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
the method?
A.
But there is --
10
11
12
13
14
excuse me.
15
16
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
A.
21
22
the results.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
We try to
When we say --
Correct.
1586
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
correct?
A.
data whatsoever.
Q.
Right.
10
A.
And
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
Study IV, you say that during the electric wire brushing
19
20
15 minutes.
21
22
going on.
23
A.
That's true.
24
Q.
25
P-5-B, it's clear those are part of the samples for the
True?
1587
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
true; correct?
That's correct.
Correct?
Correct?
10
A.
Yes, sir.
11
Q.
Okay.
12
13
14
15
study; correct?
16
A.
That is correct.
17
Q.
18
19
brushing; correct?
20
21
22
meter to air flow rates of two and ten liters per minute,
23
respectively.
24
25
1588
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
accordingly.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
It's a typo.
20
Q.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
24
25
Yes, sir.
So that's
1589
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
morning.
A.
Correct?
But
10
11
panoramics.
12
Q.
13
14
15
16
17
True?
18
A.
That's true.
19
Q.
20
21
correct?
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
Right.
You said in
In fact,
1590
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Okay.
Lamar County judge did not know that your paper was going
to be published.
Correct?
You
10
11
12
A.
13
it was --
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
No.
16
publication.
17
18
ones, in one hand, and then a judge say that that study
19
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
published.
25
Q.
No, sir.
We know that
Correct?
Hatfield testified
1591
Cross - Longo
1
to this.
clients; correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
Q.
All right.
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
number.
16
17
number.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
True?
True?
1592
Cross - Longo
1
uncountable?
A.
--
Q.
publication; correct?
A.
pull a paper.
No.
The
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
different.
16
17
the paper.
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Correct.
22
Q.
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
Correct?
Correct?
Correct?
1593
Cross - Longo
1
right?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Okay.
A.
That is correct.
Q.
cc.
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
13
background; right?
14
A.
Right.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
Q.
All right.
23
24
A.
Correct.
25
Q.
Zero
It's not.
1594
Cross - Longo
1
be switched; correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
So Mr.
criticizing Mr.
A.
Correct.
Q.
Correct?
Boelter
Correct?
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
13
14
A.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
No, sir.
Do you
I said, "I
I know
Boelter
1595
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Okay.
criticism.
A.
Correct.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
the world would your lab miss -- well, I won't ask that.
18
19
20
True?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
True.
Mr.
Egeland.
Mr.
She
Egeland misidentified
1596
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
out the names of the samples and the sample numbers and
So that's
10
11
12
13
A.
14
have.
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
Q.
22
and 2011.
23
24
25
Yes.
No, sir.
1597
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
A.
are tables.
Q.
Correct.
Correct?
All right.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
sheets.
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
15
switched or not?
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
25
1598
Cross - Longo
1
correct?
A.
Correct.
Q.
samples; correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
filter; right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
10
11
12
Microscopy.
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
16
the filter that was cut out for the Phase Contrast
17
18
Mr.
19
Q.
20
A.
Hold on.
21
22
23
Q.
24
25
The quarter of
Egeland.
1599
Cross - Longo
1
analysis.
A.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Hold on.
Q.
True?
Let me just --
10
not.
11
A.
I'm sorry.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
That's correct.
16
Q.
17
detection.
18
19
A.
Right.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
That's correct.
23
Q.
Okay.
24
25
Correct?
1600
Cross - Longo
1
done.
10
11
12
13
table six.
14
15
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
22
this case.
23
24
A.
Yes, sir.
25
Q.
True?
Those are the samples.
As far as we know, the
1601
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
were asbestos.
A.
Correct?
That's correct.
Between
10
11
decontaminated.
12
is not contaminated.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
Well, I know.
16
Q.
17
18
19
correct?
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
1602
Cross - Longo
1
residual asbestos.
Q.
So you can't
That's why we take
10
A.
No, sir.
11
12
13
Q.
14
A.
No, sir.
15
need to.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
25
Okay.
There's another
1603
Cross - Longo
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
All right.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
correct?
A.
We did.
Q.
It's
Correct?
We talked
10
The magnification
11
12
13
correct?
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
That's correct.
19
Q.
20
21
correct?
22
A.
23
what happened.
24
Q.
25
Right.
That's not
1604
Cross - Longo
1
this wrong.
Correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
magnification.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
true?
A.
Correct?
That's true.
I wasn't there
10
11
concentration.
12
Q.
13
A.
I do trust them.
14
Q.
Okay.
15
A.
16
Q.
17
18
studies; correct?
19
A.
20
switched.
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
But
1605
Cross - Longo
1
information; correct?
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
as well?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
Correct.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
18
A.
That's correct.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
That's correct.
But this is
Correct?
I think so.
Is that right?
1606
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Okay.
A.
No, sir.
two grids.
10
11
tenth of a percent.
12
Q.
13
when you said that you didn't follow the counting rules.
14
15
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
A.
No, sir.
23
fibers.
24
25
Q.
1607
Cross - Longo
1
true?
A.
these issues --
Q.
I know.
A.
Q.
saying; right?
A.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
fibers.
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
Yes, sir.
18
Q.
19
20
21
told us was that you have not done any of the microscopy
22
23
Correct?
24
A.
That's correct.
25
Q.
But
Yes, it is.
1608
Cross - Longo
1
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
10
A.
Correct.
11
Q.
12
correct?
13
A.
That is correct.
14
Q.
All right.
15
16
17
A.
18
19
it.
20
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
25
Right.
Correct.
I think as
No.
1609
Cross - Longo
1
By morphology, he's
Electron Diffraction.
spectroscopy.
he made an error.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
That
10
data --
11
Q.
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
Crocidolite; correct?
15
A.
Correct.
16
Q.
17
Chrysotile; correct?
18
A.
Correct.
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Correct.
He identified Chrysotile as
1610
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
So we went through
deposition.
studies to us.
A.
Correct.
Q.
He labeled it as
10
Actinolite.
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
fibers.
17
18
19
Q.
20
laboratory work.
21
You have
Okay.
It's
22
laboratory; right?
23
A.
24
Q.
25
But
In your report
1611
Cross - Longo
1
Chrysotile.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
No, sir.
15
manufacturers.
16
17
18
19
lab.
20
Q.
21
Johns-Manville?
22
A.
Correct.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
That's
We have
Yes, sir.
And UNARCO,
Correct?
1612
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Correct?
A.
Q.
A.
They identified
Correct?
I understand
10
11
12
13
insulating cement.
14
Q.
15
A.
No, sir.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
Q.
25
Correct?
1613
Cross - Longo
1
A.
We did an additional
Q.
A.
Correct.
10
Q.
11
12
trace; correct?
13
A.
Correct.
14
Q.
15
16
correct?
17
A.
18
Q.
19
Chatfield did?
20
A.
Correct.
21
Q.
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
24
of Chrysotile; correct?
25
A.
Sort of.
1614
Cross - Longo
1
single fibers.
Q.
A.
No, sir.
10
Q.
11
your knowledge?
12
A.
No, sir.
13
Q.
14
15
16
A.
No, sir.
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
That's correct.
21
Q.
22
A.
Excuse me.
23
24
analysis.
25
It wasn't discovered.
We took another
1615
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
A.
Q.
Correct?
A.
As we did.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
results.
15
A.
That's correct.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
That's true.
20
Q.
That's an error.
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
sheet.
24
25
A.
Correct?
Here are
True?
That's correct.
Correct?
1616
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Another error.
A.
Q.
Sample
10
A.
I'm sorry.
11
Q.
12
A.
Oh.
13
Q.
Right there.
14
15
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
18
19
20
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
Yes, sir.
You
1617
Cross - Longo
1
we've highlighted.
Daubert brief.
A.
incorrect.
Q.
A.
22.6.
I have not.
I'm just --
Tell me which
When you
98.0, 99,
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
17
18
places and then you round that number up or down and then
19
20
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
I'm sorry.
1618
Cross - Longo
1
math.
A.
Q.
A.
Okay.
Q.
All right.
Yes, it is.
We don't have to
10
Correct?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
A.
14
analysis.
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
correct?
20
A.
Yes, sir.
21
Q.
22
23
24
25
And then after you did the studies, you would use
And then, in addition to your
1619
Cross - Longo
1
A.
not up to me.
article.
Q.
No, sir.
Correct?
10
True?
11
A.
12
Q.
We asked Mr.
13
question.
14
15
16
Answer:
17
18
your counts?"
19
20
21
"Yes."
22
A.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Yes, sir.
1620
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Is that true?
A.
That's true.
Q.
Ingersoll Rand?
A.
10
Harris, I take
11
12
13
issues.
14
Q.
15
16
substantial.
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
$200,000 a year?
19
A.
Lower.
20
Q.
$150,000 a year?
21
A.
Lower.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
A.
No.
24
Q.
25
A.
1621
Cross - Longo
1
Q.
Okay.
I believe I
may be completed.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
is that true?
A.
That's true.
Q.
Your
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
the time?
20
isn't it?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Q.
1622
Redirect - Longo
1
A.
Harris.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FROST:
Q.
anything else?
Yes.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
consistent with our 1,350 RPM grinder that had the same
15
16
looked at that.
17
Q.
18
pneumatic tools.
19
20
21
A.
Air Drills.
22
Q.
23
24
versus electric?
25
A.
We absolutely -- we
1623
Redirect - Longo
1
Q.
certifications.
laboratory.
that you do that would have, back in the day, kept you
It's not
No.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
16
our results.
17
problem.
18
Q.
19
20
your lab the only lab that sometimes might say there's
21
22
23
A.
24
25
So
No, sir.
Is
1624
Redirect - Longo
1
the number of errors and typos we've found and then look
you look at the sheer magnitude of the data and go, did
reported?
10
11
fiber levels.
12
Q.
13
14
15
lab.
16
17
18
A.
19
Crocidolite.
20
21
numbers.
22
They had ten samples and in all ten samples they found
23
24
25
And
1625
Redirect - Longo
1
results.
Q.
or even Mr.
It did not.
Mangold or Mr.
Liukonen,
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
16
ignored it.
17
Q.
18
19
with Mr.
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Okay.
23
24
25
And
Now the last area, and we've got our Power Point
This is a Power Point I used
Boelter's industrial
And in
1626
Redirect - Longo
1
old.
A.
when they went and got those gaskets, then all these
We shouldn't be seeing
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
out of service.
21
Q.
22
23
Mr.
24
25
A.
And so Mr.
What type of
1627
Redirect - Longo
1
Q.
A.
No, sir.
system.
10
Q.
Great.
This was
11
THE COURT:
12
Something else?
13
MR. HARRIS:
14
15
about.
16
THE COURT:
Yes, sir.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
17
18
BY MR. HARRIS:
19
Q.
20
A.
It is.
21
Q.
22
litigation?
23
A.
That's right.
24
Q.
25
1628
Recross - Longo
1
studies; right?
A.
Q.
A.
Correct.
Q.
I think I said
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
Yes.
22
Q.
23
don't know how they got -- what they were doing when they
24
25
A.
1629
Recross - Longo
1
minutes.
Q.
A.
for 18 minutes.
Q.
Well, yeah.
Yes, sir.
Correct?
You're relying on
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
interferences."
15
16
17
A.
Correct.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
In the workplace.
22
Q.
Is that true?
23
A.
24
Q.
25
It says, "possible
in the workplace.
Correct?
1630
Recross - Longo
1
Did I read
that correctly?
A.
You did.
Q.
Okay.
A.
Harris.
Q.
data sheets.
But there's no --
I know
10
11
12
situation; correct?
13
A.
Yes, sir.
14
Q.
15
16
case situation.
17
A.
18
Q.
19
numbers; right?
20
A.
Not
True?
21
THE COURT:
22
THE WITNESS:
Harris.
23
But
24
Mr.
25
1631
Recross - Longo
1
fibers.
BY MR. HARRIS:
Q.
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
15
gasket it was?
16
A.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
23
24
25
BY MR. FROST:
Q.
1632
Redirect - Longo
1
A.
So, they
10
problem.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
up.
22
disk.
23
24
A.
25
wheels.
These
1633
Redirect - Longo
1
big.
Microscopy.
They're too
We have yet to
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
14
15
16
any asbestos.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
THE COURT:
19
THE WITNESS:
20
21
22
until four.
23
24
25
Have
MR. FINCH:
At this
1634
Direct - Shoemaker
1
THE COURT:
Come up.
THE CLERK:
MR. FINCH:
THE COURT:
Yes, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
8
9
BY MR. FINCH:
10
Q.
Shoemaker.
11
12
A.
13
Williamsburg, Virginia.
14
15
Q.
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yes.
Okay.
They
I do indeed.
Do you have
1635
Direct - Shoemaker
1
Q.
is that right?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
Okay.
in an asbestos case?
A.
No, sir.
Q.
10
A.
11
12
Newport News.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
Okay.
Then he
$150 an Hour.
1636
Direct - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
$5,000.
Okay.
Yes, sir.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
in Norfolk.
19
20
21
22
training.
23
Q.
24
25
A.
I was in a summer
1637
Direct - Shoemaker
1
executive program.
Q.
numbers?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
3.445?
A.
10
3.45.
11
Q.
12
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
15
16
17
18
19
20
A.
21
22
23
24
25
Yes, sir.
1638
Direct - Shoemaker
1
8
9
And in
I stayed
10
11
12
13
14
"Trouble Desk," and I did that until 1977 when I got sent
15
16
17
18
And I rose to
19
20
21
22
23
24
in overhaul.
25
1639
Direct - Shoemaker
1
And I stayed
Superintendent.
Q.
A.
superintendent.
'88 I
I stayed as Pipefitter
10
11
overhaul.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
22
the world?
23
A.
24
employees.
25
Yes.
1640
Direct - Shoemaker
1
overhaul yard.
Q.
Norfolk is an
So they do -So if a
10
and the Norfolk Naval Shipyard would have been among the
11
12
could hold and people to work there in the '60s, '70s and
13
'80s?
14
A.
15
16
17
18
that's right.
19
Q.
20
21
22
23
A.
24
25
That's correct.
Yes, I have.
1641
Direct - Shoemaker
1
Enterprise in 1961.
USS Iowa and the USS Wisconsin, that we did overhauls on.
Q.
you, ACC-5063A.
Shoemaker?
10
A.
11
Q.
12
THE COURT:
Yes, sir.
13
BY MR. FINCH:
14
Q.
15
have --
16
A.
Yes, sir.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
19
A.
20
mentioned.
21
Q.
22
23
24
gaskets to be used?
25
A.
That's correct.
Okay.
Yes.
1642
Direct - Shoemaker
1
years.
The material
And then
10
11
12
13
thing.
14
Q.
15
16
gaskets to be used?
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
Go ahead.
By
1643
Direct - Shoemaker
1
A.
Superintendent.
Yes.
At Newport
10
11
12
13
in the courses.
14
with them.
15
pipe fitting.
16
Q.
17
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
22
A.
Thousands.
23
Q.
24
almost 40 years?
25
A.
We had written
We trained the people
50.
Many thousands.
52 this month.
1644
Direct - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
an independent shop.
Q.
Yes.
10
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Again, thousands.
Yes.
1645
Direct - Shoemaker
1
nuclear systems.
the Navy had on every class of ship they had, and that
10
steam systems.
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
16
in?
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yes.
In my
So, yes.
1646
Direct - Shoemaker
1
bolt up a flange, how you weld a joint, how you paint the
kinds of things.
10
of how you did this, and then you applied the manpower to
11
12
13
14
period of time.
15
16
17
18
the Fleet so the Navy does what the Navy does with its
19
ships.
20
Q.
21
for gaskets didn't come into place in the Navy until the
22
23
'70s.
24
A.
25
Q.
Okay.
We
1647
Direct - Shoemaker
1
that they could meet the new OSHA regulations in the late
'80s?
A.
problem.
Yes.
10
insulation.
11
12
But
13
14
15
1990.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1648
Direct - Shoemaker
1
know how much was asbestos and how much was dust, but you
So the
10
11
that.
12
and hand brushes, and that's the way we'd do it, and
13
14
Q.
15
Mr.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
The
1649
Cross - Shoemaker
1
4
5
MR. HARRIS:
witness, please?
THE COURT:
Yes.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HARRIS:
Q.
Shoemaker.
10
A.
Harris.
11
Q.
12
understood.
13
14
A.
That's correct.
15
Q.
16
correct?
17
A.
18
for asbestos.
19
Kennedy.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
That's correct.
Oh, yes.
I wouldn't
But
1650
Cross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
Okay.
Mr.
10
11
A.
12
1977.
13
Q.
14
15
A.
That's correct.
16
Q.
17
A.
That's correct.
18
19
Q.
20
not done any research to find out about the work methods
21
22
correct?
23
A.
24
25
That's correct.
Correct?
1651
Cross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
plaintiffs' lawyers?
A.
Q.
You said those were not the practices that you saw
in the new construction work that you did in the '60s and
'70s?
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
to new construction.
16
17
18
THE COURT:
Yes, sir.
But before
that caveat.
MR. FINCH:
19
foundation.
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE WITNESS:
That's true.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. FINCH:
Is that
1652
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Now, Mr.
Harris
10
11
12
Q.
13
14
15
The methods we
THE COURT:
All right.
that.
16
BY MR. FINCH:
17
Q.
Okay.
Mr.
18
judge, the Court, the type of repair work that was done
19
20
21
A.
22
23
to do maintenance on.
24
25
1653
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
managers.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
certification phases.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
23
A.
24
25
We would have
We
1654
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
work."
You had to make sure that the fuel oil was off
You would
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
the ship.
19
20
21
22
23
24
bigger scale.
25
1655
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
Right.
10
11
A.
12
13
a Nimitz carrier.
14
15
16
bring them back and put back them in the ship before we
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
system.
22
23
24
25
the system out to make sure the system was safe and cold
They'd be
Then we'd
1656
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Then they
10
11
out.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
space.
21
Q.
22
pump?
23
A.
24
25
pipe.
1657
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
So
bypass lines.
Q.
For a
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
third.
17
18
19
20
21
Norfolk.
22
Q.
23
24
25
gaskets?
1658
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
space.
idea.
Q.
A.
You'd
10
11
carrier.
12
13
14
percent of that.
A submarine is probably 40 to 50
15
percent of that.
16
that.
17
18
19
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
24
25
1659
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
days a month.
worth of work.
You'd take it
Then
deploy and come back and start the cycle all over again.
So, for
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
Navy.
17
18
Q.
19
20
Enterprise CVN-65.
21
22
A.
23
24
25
nation had.
No.
1660
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
Okay.
A.
Q.
A.
Nuclear.
that means.
Q.
A.
We dropped the
10
them in '68.
11
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
Q.
All right.
16
17
18
A.
19
Q.
Okay.
20
21
22
23
A.
24
25
Is that
I would say
There's a lot of
1661
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
some metal.
Q.
A.
interesting.
It
And depending on
It's
10
superheated steam.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
generally steel.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Q.
1662
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
Q.
But
10
red dot.
11
A.
12
Q.
Okay.
13
of?
14
A.
15
that's --
16
Q.
17
studies?
18
A.
19
You see that tag on it it says B4, which was the valve
20
number.
21
22
23
rusted.
24
Q.
25
A.
Yeah.
And I think if
Yeah.
That's nine.
1663
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
there?
Q.
That?
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
Right there.
10
about this.
11
12
13
A.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
where the --
24
Q.
There?
25
A.
Those
They're
Then
1664
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
flanges.
like fuel oil systems and in some salt water systems, and
system diagrams.
But there
Now you
10
11
rubber gaskets.
12
13
14
Q.
15
16
Room?
17
A.
18
gaskets.
19
Q.
20
21
consult?
22
A.
23
drawings.
24
25
Okay.
It is
1665
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
So you would
Q.
And one of
10
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
17
going to replace.
18
Yeah.
19
20
21
22
on the Constellation.
23
time.
24
25
In reading Captain
1666
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
intermediate facility.
shore-based facility.
If
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
can?
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
particular ship?
23
A.
24
particular ship.
25
ship was built and for some reason couldn't get the
No.
1667
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
Nimitz as an example.
16
with asbestos in the late '60s and early '70s, the word
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Yeah.
So we weren't real
1668
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
back to gaskets.
Okay.
But
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
17
18
gasket.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q.
During the
But the
1669
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
True.
10
11
could take to the job site where they had the nuts and
12
13
that valve.
14
15
Q.
16
17
18
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
The preferred
1670
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
cut the waterway bore, cut the outside down where the
ship.
At
10
11
12
Q.
13
A.
Oh, thousands.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
18
shearer.
19
the gasket.
20
21
22
23
24
25
deposition.
You could --
1671
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
shipyard.
Q.
A.
I have.
Q.
A.
Okay.
Yeah.
10
11
Q.
12
13
14
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
17
18
stuck to a flange.
19
20
describe for the Court the work methods and tools that
21
22
23
A.
24
25
Sure.
By that, I
1672
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
it out.
pipe now -- and I'll split this before the late 1980s and
10
after.
So we're --
11
Q.
12
A.
Yeah.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
A.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
You would
1673
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
system.
morning.
get started.
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
pneumatic grinders.
17
A.
18
19
20
time.
21
22
23
24
25
grind.
Okay.
And
The guards on
1674
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
grind away.
a grinder.
Q.
kit?
A.
10
11
bag.
12
Q.
13
14
15
A.
I have.
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
Naval Shipyard?
21
A.
22
23
24
25
hazard.
Yes.
1675
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
just like he's holding his right hand there, and he's
stationary position.
Q.
A.
10
Q.
11
12
13
14
15
about it.
16
If you think
He would
Mangold, and
17
Q.
18
A.
I have.
19
Q.
20
Mr.
21
demonstration?
22
A.
Right.
23
Q.
24
the flange after the gasket was -- after the flange was
25
taken apart, which one looked more like what you saw on a
Yes.
1676
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
regular basis?
A.
regular basis.
believe that's the one that came off the USS Gypsy, which
10
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
with you?
17
A.
I did, indeed.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
Q.
21
Mr.
22
23
24
A.
Yeah.
25
Q.
1677
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
shipyard?
A.
one?
10
11
it apart.
12
13
pretty common.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
piece.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Okay.
1678
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
bit more.
A.
Back.
Back it up to
Is that something --
10
11
flange.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
world.
19
finish on it.
20
flange.
21
22
just because you damaged your flange face didn't mean you
23
24
25
But it
It was more
1679
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
that.
Q.
A.
I have.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
They are.
13
Q.
14
15
thermal insulation.
16
17
18
products to be used?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
21
A.
22
23
gaskets.
24
25
systems.
First, on
But my big
1680
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
insulation?
A.
fiberglass substitution.
Q.
Yes.
10
entirely?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
16
17
fiberglass insulation.
18
Q.
19
20
21
A.
22
23
24
25
Yes.
Okay.
1681
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
is fiberglass.
Naval Shipyard.
Q.
insulation?
A.
They're
10
it.
One, after
11
12
13
14
15
the insulators.
16
17
it.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
Shipyard?
23
A.
24
25
You
1682
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
cement?
A.
and.
Right.
10
Then you would get around the components and the valves
11
12
13
in the shop.
14
15
fiberglass.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
Your Honor?
22
THE COURT:
Yes.
23
BY MR. FINCH:
Oh, yes.
24
Q.
25
1683
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
Q.
A.
Right here.
portable pad.
Q.
Back up.
A.
portable pad.
That's a
10
left.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
A.
23
pumps.
24
25
So they'd
1684
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
valve.
Q.
your experience?
A.
it went on during the war and after the war, but I never
saw it in my experience.
Q.
10
11
12
A.
I have.
13
Q.
14
15
16
17
experience?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
20
A.
No.
21
22
23
24
25
Boelter
1685
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
hammer.
Q.
Shoemaker.
We're in the
10
started?
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
dispose of it.
25
the dust and the dirt, and they would clean up whatever
If it was, we would
And the insulators were
They
So
1686
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
out off it wouldn't get down in the bilge and get in the
Q.
A.
happened in Norfolk.
10
Q.
All right.
11
12
13
removal work?
14
A.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
had to use a hand wire brush, and you had to have -- you
22
23
respirator qualified.
24
25
So the
You
You
You had to be
1687
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
marked as ACC-5063B.
GST-1558.
A.
Yes.
10
11
Q.
12
correct?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
15
16
17
the screen?
18
A.
19
20
gasket residue.
21
Q.
22
23
24
A.
Yeah.
25
Q.
And number
1688
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
years.
in the air.
Q.
evidence Mr.
Right.
Very similar.
10
11
12
today, I'll make a printout for Your Honor and that will
13
14
15
16
17
ACC-5063B.
And then
18
MR. HARRIS:
19
THE COURT:
20
BY MR. FINCH:
21
Q.
22
23
24
Shipyard?
25
A.
Yes.
1689
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
brushing.
contaminate on it.
Q.
10
No.
Honor.
11
THE COURT:
All right.
12
Mr.
Guy.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
13
BY MR.
GUY:
14
Q.
Mr.
15
A.
Yes, sir.
16
Q.
17
Mr.
18
19
20
21
period; correct?
22
A.
23
Q.
24
for money.
25
Joe Grier.
And
1690
Cross - Shoemaker
1
asbestos in insulation.
A.
Q.
Yeah.
10
11
12
A.
13
14
15
16
sick.
17
18
asbestosis.
19
point.
20
21
22
to us.
23
24
25
I think we were
MR. HARRIS:
Objection.
1691
Cross - Shoemaker
1
offered for.
THE COURT:
BY MR.
Mr.
Sustained.
GUY:
Q.
commercial ships?
A.
No.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Same question.
16
17
18
A.
19
20
Q.
21
No.
Thank you.
All right.
Mr.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
22
23
BY MR. HARRIS:
24
Q.
25
A.
Shoemaker.
Shoemaker.
Harris.
1692
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Okay.
Q.
early 1960s?
A.
1961.
Q.
department?
A.
Yes, sir.
10
11
Q.
12
13
A.
New construction.
14
Q.
15
A.
16
17
Q.
18
19
A.
20
21
1961 to 1977.
22
Q.
23
24
25
correct?
Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
1693
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
Q.
that correct?
A.
That's correct.
News.
Q.
And then in
10
11
12
A.
13
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
19
20
before 1960.
21
A.
22
Q.
23
how those ships that were built in the 1940s and 1950s
24
and how they were overhauled in the 1960s and the early
25
'70s.
It was a
Correct?
Yes.
1694
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
That's correct.
Q.
correct?
A.
That's correct.
Q.
A.
That's correct.
Q.
10
correct?
11
A.
12
13
14
15
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
That's true.
21
Q.
Okay.
22
that were built before 1960, that was in the 1980s, those
23
24
saw them.
25
A.
No.
But I never
Yeah.
Correct?
That's correct.
1695
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
All right.
A.
war.
The two
10
11
Q.
12
A.
13
Q.
14
A.
Correct.
15
Q.
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
A.
19
Q.
20
21
A.
22
Q.
There's chapters?
23
A.
24
25
Q.
Right.
1696
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
Absolutely.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
All right.
A.
Yes, sir.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
That's correct.
13
Q.
14
A.
They do.
15
Q.
16
A.
They do yeah.
17
Q.
18
19
20
that; correct?
21
A.
22
steel on ships.
23
Amosite.
24
Q.
25
We talked
You've seen
1697
Recross - Shoemaker
1
right?
A.
Correct.
Q.
All right.
A.
Q.
Okay.
That's correct.
You don't doubt that some people in
You
10
correct?
11
A.
Yes, sir.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
Yes, sir.
15
Q.
16
17
18
gasket?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
24
25
big pieces.
1698
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
pieces, you can actually still see the name that was
A.
Yes.
Q.
Right.
A.
That's correct.
10
Q.
11
A.
12
Q.
13
14
A.
15
come off.
16
Q.
17
A.
That's my guess.
18
Q.
19
A.
20
21
Q.
22
23
experience; correct?
24
A.
25
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
But if I had
Yeah.
1699
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
A.
No.
Q.
No.
Right.
10
11
A.
That's right.
12
Q.
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
15
16
A.
17
18
Q.
19
20
A.
21
and a seal.
22
23
-- if the grinder got away from you, you would get it.
24
Now you would also, you know, there were also sometimes
25
residue.
No.
1700
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
on it; right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
12
more than half of the gaskets you see in Engine Room are
13
14
A.
Yeah.
15
that.
16
17
Q.
18
19
20
A.
21
with a helper.
22
Q.
Right.
23
A.
Right.
24
Q.
25
A.
Right.
That's correct.
Yeah.
An individual pipefitter
1701
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
the grinder.
A.
Right.
Q.
Right.
A.
Yes.
The
10
being done.
Shipyard
11
12
13
14
15
Q.
16
17
correct?
18
A.
19
Anywhere.
20
Q.
What's that?
21
A.
In Norfolk, too.
22
Q.
Norfolk, too?
23
A.
Yeah.
24
25
Q.
And
And rather
True.
That's true.
All right.
1702
Recross - Shoemaker
1
you?
A.
No.
Q.
A.
Q.
-- gasket fabrication?
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
12
13
are they?
14
A.
15
environment.
16
Q.
17
18
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
21
22
the flange.
23
A.
24
25
No.
They
They
1703
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Yes, sir.
Q.
That's correct.
10
A.
11
12
13
14
15
stored in a space.
16
Q.
17
18
same time?
19
A.
Yes, sir.
20
Q.
21
doing?
22
A.
Yes, sir.
23
Q.
24
25
lines and the equipment and the valves that were going to
The sailors'
1704
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
Correct.
Q.
correct?
A.
that's correct.
controls I mentioned.
insulators.
Right.
10
Q.
11
12
13
A.
That's correct.
14
Q.
15
16
pipes; correct?
17
A.
That's correct.
18
Q.
19
A.
That's correct.
20
Q.
21
22
23
A.
24
25
Correct?
There
These are
1705
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
Okay.
A.
That's true.
Q.
right?
A.
That's true.
Q.
10
11
A.
12
13
supposed to do that.
14
15
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
21
A.
Yeah.
22
Q.
23
24
25
1975.
It was not
I mentioned to
This
1706
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
That's right.
Q.
A.
That is true.
Q.
shipyard.
10
at that shipyard.
Correct?
11
A.
That's correct.
12
Q.
13
insulation.
14
15
16
"Yes."
17
18
19
20
type of saw.
21
22
23
24
25
1707
Recross - Shoemaker
1
It wasn't
A.
Q.
A.
insulation.
It
10
11
at that time.
12
13
14
15
16
pipe.
17
would fail.
18
19
Mr.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
inartfully earlier.
25
He was associated
1708
Recross - Shoemaker
1
historically.
A.
10
11
12
13
14
Q.
15
A.
Yes.
16
17
18
Q.
19
20
about this.
21
up until 1988.
22
23
first class.
24
A.
25
not NASSCO?.
Overstreet.
1709
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Q.
A.
Q.
I thought
Any
of the ship?"
"No, sir.
10
11
12
water lines?"
13
"Yes, sir.
14
15
16
17
18
19
everywhere."
20
21
22
A.
23
Q.
24
says, "And the insulator was there, you know, and he'd
25
Yes.
He
1710
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
I believe it.
Yeah.
11
ADDSCO.
12
Q.
13
14
THE COURT:
15
THE WITNESS:
16
And I recall
10
Okay.
17
BY MR. HARRIS:
18
Q.
19
lawyer of here -- he's the one that met with you and
20
21
A.
That's correct.
22
Q.
23
the report?
24
A.
I did.
25
Q.
1711
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
I do.
Q.
A.
Yes.
Q.
10
A.
Right.
11
Q.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
16
experience?
17
A.
No.
18
Q.
All right.
19
A.
Thank you.
Shoemaker.
20
MR. FINCH:
21
THE COURT:
Yes.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23
BY MR. FINCH:
24
Q.
25
1712
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
matter?
A.
You might
I don't
Q.
No.
10
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
13
14
weeks?
15
A.
16
overhaul.
17
Q.
18
ripped off?
19
A.
20
21
22
Q.
23
24
25
A.
Yes.
Harris?
It
Depending on how
1713
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Q.
10
A.
11
Q.
Six months?
12
A.
Yeah.
13
Q.
14
15
replacing gaskets?
16
A.
17
18
installation phase.
19
Q.
20
the hull during the rip-out, then two weeks doing the
21
22
insulation?
23
A.
Yes.
24
Q.
25
The
I believe you
1714
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
A.
document.
That's correct.
But am I
10
11
12
13
14
15
ship.
16
Q.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
A.
Yes, sir.
24
Q.
All right.
25
All right.
MR. HARRIS:
And you
Harris
And the
You saw
Shoemaker?
And within that document -Would you show the date of the
1715
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
document, please?
MR. FINCH:
MR. HARRIS:
MR. FINCH:
Harris.
Thank you.
-- documents back in here that I'm
interested in.
BY MR. FINCH:
Q.
Mr.
10
A.
11
Q.
12
A.
13
or asbestos.
14
Q.
15
16
17
A.
That's right.
18
Q.
19
20
21
22
23
24
document, Mr.
25
A.
Shoemaker?
1716
Redirect - Shoemaker
1
Right.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
which is GST-15570.
10
It talks
11
THE COURT:
All right.
12
MR. HARRIS:
13
THE COURT:
All right.
14
MR. FINCH:
15
THE COURT:
Anything else?
16
MR. HARRIS:
17
18
BY MR. HARRIS:
19
Q.
Mr.
20
21
22
any testing.
23
that; correct?
24
A.
That's correct.
25
Q.
All right.
1717
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
that's my opinion.
Q.
hygiene study?
A.
That's true.
Q.
Okay.
Mr.
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
11
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
Asbestos insulation?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
18
19
A.
That's true.
20
Q.
21
22
A.
23
24
Q.
25
Yeah.
Yes.
1718
Recross - Shoemaker
1
A.
That's true.
Q.
us; correct?
A.
Q.
10
11
Shoemaker.
THE WITNESS:
13
THE COURT:
at 9:30.
15
16
Shoemaker.
All right.
12
14
A couple of announcements.
We will
17
18
19
20
21
unrelated thing.
22
23
I think you
24
I have a video
25
1719
Recross - Shoemaker
1
Mr.
bicycle.
out.
7
8
But
9
10
CERTIFICATE
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25