(OP)
30 Jan 03 03:45
I have a room whose dimensions are : 15 feet x 20 feet. Height is 10 feet. There is one door,
whose dimensions are 7 feet x 3 feet.
I need to maintain this room at 0.4 inch static, higher with respect to the outside.
Could you please tell me if there is a mathematical formula available to actually establish the
exact air quantity I will have to pump in and exhaust to maintain this diiferential.
4
Huh! Kenrad
What do I do with that sledge hammer then?
Don't add any confusion. The bolded equation in Quark's post above is your nearest simulation
and is from the ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals. To help clarify for the equation:
Q = 2610 x A x (DP)1/2
You're left with two unknowns: Q, which is your air leakage - the offset flow rates in question, and
A, which is your net open crack area.
Your key is to design the room with a certain flow offset. Pick a number. I say 700 cfm. Why? It's a
300 ft2 room so if it was office ASHRAE would say supply 300 cfm (general rule). I would guess
it's a specialized application and not office because of the pressure requirement. So (guess,
based on air exchange, exhaust need, or heat load) supply 1,200 cfm and exhaust 500.
With design cfm delta based on room heat load, exhaust, and air exchange requirements, the rest
is up to sealing, caulking, gaskets, and door sweeps.
Your true variable is the net open crack area. Pick sensible design values knowing net open crack
area is not measurable and adjust room pressure by sealing the room. For this application, the
room will have to be well sealed and the offset will have to be pretty high.
Best regards, -CB
VEEKRISH (Mechanical)
(OP)
31 Jan 03 00:18
Quark, KenRad & CB - Thanks guys. I now have something to chew. Quark go easy with the
sledge hammer!!! You guys really rock this forum. I like it. Thanks again. Regards. Krishnan
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
Thanks for you guys.Infact I am consolidating my thoughts by your inputs. In the beginning of my
career I was to control multiple areas (maximum upto 5 rooms with increasing pressure by 15
pascals) under one AHU. Ultimately I used to spend hours in the morning before start up of
production. This really annoyed me very much as the area where I have to maintain 75 pascals
pressure was the main production area. Somehow I used to pull the matter and thought it was all
magic of return damper.
Now it seems clear to me.
In this regard my above post is rather a monologue.
But onething for sure is incase of Isolators, (containment management) as there should
absolutely be no leakage, we have to fiddle with the two dampers. My first equation holds good in
that condition.
Regards,
Leakage occurs because of pressure differential. There is no pressure differential means no flow.
Still I am waiting for CB's post.
Regards,
ChasBean1 - Nice to see a voice of reason, in a see of confusion... As a fellow BSME'r, i think your
BS makes you a qualified BS'r. No Bull!
Regards.
CHD01 - as an HVAC engineer, my way of thinking is in standard cubic feet per minute (SCFM). I
think this industry tends to be guilty of using volume flow and mass flow interchangeably.
We simplify for example by saying if 10,000 cfm is being discharged from a fan, then the sum of
all the air outlets and leakage should be 10,000 cfm, neglecting actual volumetric corrections
based on the fact that the fan discharge is pressurized and each outlet is essentially atmospheric.
We also maintain the equivalent cfm assumption when individual zones are heating the air.
'The density at the inlet and outlet is the same' is faulty - you're right and sometimes I post
before I think it through. Your previous post is accurate regarding mass and volume flow. The
(true) volume flow could vary but I don't think it's the principal factor in determinining the
pressure build-up in a room.
To throw a wrench in the discussion, what if reheated air at 140F were entering the room while
70F air was being squeezed out through cracks? Would these thermal changes in volume flow
proportionally (or at least relatedly) affect changes in room pressure?
My way of thinking is very simply that air flows from a high to low pressure area. If you consider
the room as a large opening in the duct with the air entry point being point 1 and the exit point
being point 2, assuming the exit opening is sized equally with the inlet opening, the main reason
for pressure build-up in the room is that the friction loss at the point where air is being pushed
into point 2 is causing accumulation of air molecules within the room, therefore higher pressure
chemical industry plus I was concerned about being viewed as a utility engineer in a
pharmaceutical centered industry - but I still wonder what my career would have been like.
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
But Pascal's Law and the ideal gas rules don't apply to a steady flow, compressible system with
friction loss. We are talking apples and oranges here. The ASHRAE equation won't apply if you
completely eliminate leakage and probably won't apply with too high a pressure source like a
compressor versus a fan.
If you look back to my first post, I suggested 700 cfm difference. Per the ASHRAE equation, this
would allow just under a half a square foot of net open area for leakage, which is still small for the
real world, but achievable. The flow offset is picked on gut feel and how good you estimate your
drywallers and caulkers to be.
CHD01, I meant 1,200 cfm total supply to the room, and 500 cfm total leaving the room via
mechanical exhaust, with no recirc (meaning the 700 cfm flow difference is what would leave the
room through cracks).
Hi CHD01 - the assumption was that this was a space in a building supplied by a central system
that also serves other spaces. The central system might be a 20% OA system, but the room itself
should be fed 700 cfm more supply air than exhaust or return air. Note that the 700 cfm is also
arbitrary (guess) based on the fact that 0.4 in. w.c. is a pretty high pressure to maintain a room
(in fact, the door won't shut unless it has a pretty strong closer, or it would take about 40 lbf to
open if it opens into the room).
Best regards, -CB
Hi ChasBean1: Boy that explains a lot as to some of the confusion we had initially. I hear you on
the force required, I noticed a slight extra pull in force for the door of an extruder extraction room
I designed.
Since you are interested in this, if you don't mind sending your e-mail address over the net I'll
send you the spreadsheet I use (I'll even give you my e-mail). You may use it for your personal
use if you like, just don't distribute it for use by others since I wrote it. Its not that complicated a
program nor do I think it would draw that much interest to offer for sale unless I increased its
flexibility. Of course, if you have any upgrades/updates to suggest, let me know.
Quark this offer goes for you too if you have any interest.
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
.4" static appears quite high. To what are you comparing this to?
If we are talking OA pressure vs builidng pressure, then perhaps you may be looking at .04"WC?
If you are considering .4"wc, then you best have reinforced windows and doors.
The internal static presure compared to the outside from the inside of the room is considerable at
that rate, you may wish to consult your building codes.
I did not see any one else questioning the .4" or to what comparitive measurement you are
considering.
I also would look at how you attempting to maintain this control. Presure transducers and BAS,
or?
Kevin
Looks good Quark, flow cannot occur without a pressure drop. Given the pressure difference, the
amount of flow is determined by the resistance to flow and the flow area of the crack. The
resistance to flow is equal to: 1) the entrance loss into the crack, 2) the friction loss through the
crack due to flow, and 3) the exit loss from the crack.
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
Quark, or the inaccuracy could be with the coefficient(?). You're right - I think that's probably the
basis of it. It's basically takes Point 1 with only pressure energy and zero velocity and translates it
to a leak at Point 2 with lower pressure and some velocity. Well done! -CB
Can someone please explain how the constant 2610 was derived?
Q = 2610 x A x (dP)0.5
Thanks,
Freddie
The book mentioned by Quark on 3/4/03, "Fann Engineering" by Buffalo Forge is available from
Howden Buffalo. http://www.howdenbuffalo.com/
They have is as a book only and a book CD combination.
BikeBill
Did you get my program revision for design of air locks? I get a notice that your yahoo account is
discontinued when I try to send you the new program.
I made some improvements, plus I had a typo error in cells D106 and E106 of the new version
that you need to correct.
The more you learn, the less you are certain of.
From experience in designing isolation rooms, a conservative pressurization CFM to hold 0.01" wg
pressurization is 200 CFM. Since pressurization CFM is proportional to the square root of the
pressure then CFM2 = CFM1 x (P2/P1)^.5
CFM2 = 200 x (.4/.01)^.5 = 1265 say 1300 CFM.
The bottom of the door should have brush type door sweeps. The ceiling should be gypsum
board. Light fixtures and receptacles should be gasketed. The intersection of the wall with the
floor, behind the baseboard should be caulked.
But why so high a pressure? If too high, it will be difficult to close door!