We Are What We Eat: How What We Eat Affects Everything Within and

Around Us
Presenter: Aaron Lucich
www.wearewhatweeat.org

Sean: Our next Summit presentation is by Aaron Lucich. The title is We Are What We Eat: How
What We Eat Affects Everything Within and Around Us.
Aaron Lucich, a producer from the San Francisco Bay area, hitched up a trailer in the Fall of
2005, and went on the road to research and document the leadership of ecological agriculture. He
never came back.
On this odyssey, he has managed farming operations and brand development for Traders Point
Creamery in Zionsville, Indiana and consulted to numerous land-based organizations including
the Sustainable Studies Institute, ZZ2 in South Africa, MA Center, Biological Capital in Denver,
Colorado and the State of California.
He is the founder of We Are What We Eat, a communications entity focused on changing the way
we eat, and Holistic Ag, a production and consulting entity focused on changing the way we
produce food. You can learn more about Aaron and all of his passions at
www.wearewhatweeat.org.
Aaron, welcome to The Real Food Summit!
Aaron: Hey, Sean! Hows it going?
Sean: Im good, man! How are you doing today?
Aaron: Im doing well!
Sean: Your presentation here is entitled We Are What We Eat. What does that actually mean from
your perspective?
Aaron: Well, what we eat is, well, number one, the stuff that our cells are made of. Right? So
everything we put in our mouth and ingest becomes a part of us. But then what became obvious
to me on my little journey is that what we eat molds our environment. Nothing else that we do, I
think, has more significant impact to think large, the global ecosystem. So every time we eat, we
make a decision about that, whether its conscious or not.
Sean: You actually set out on this journey to find a sustainable agricultural system. Did you
actually find it?

Aaron: Thats a yes and a no. So it depends on how you look at it. If the
question is, Is it possible?, then the answer is yes. If the question more relates
to how were doing so far, that would be a no.
And the deal is, we have all the tools. We have all the information. What we dont have is
consensus and action. So while we can point to lots of notions of sustainable agriculture and lots
of small little microcosms that seem to be working well and have everything that needs to
happen for the production of food to continue, which is what sustainability would mean, we can
point to lots of small operations that are doing that. We cant actually look at more of a global
paradigm or a way that its working at scale that competes with the existing paradigm that is
dysfunctional.
Sean: Let me jump in for a second. I just want to define something here. What exactly does
scale mean? I want to make sure everybody understands that.
Aaron: We have a global food system. And at the end of the day, people have to eat. And a
tremendous amount of food is produced. In this emerging local foods movement, people become
self-righteous quickly. And they like to take organizations that gets dogged a lot, [one of which]
is Whole Foods. And Whole Foods is a company that is duking it out on the high-end grocery
front.
When I last checked -- and Im sure these figures are dated -- but when I last checked, Whole
Foods was at about $8 billion in terms of market share. And they may be significantly more than
that now. But theyre probably around 10 [billion] or so. When you look at a Kroger and
Safeway, youre talking about hundreds of billions of dollars. Not hundreds, but right around
$100 billion.
And so when you look in terms of market share, in terms of the food thats being consumed, the
local foods movement or the sustainable agricultural movement, it doesnt account for a
significant market share of all the food thats produced, and certainly not the global trade.
But from a subsistence point of view, its extremely functional. And it feeds a lot of people. So
when we talk about how were going to produce food in a way that is healthful for people and
healthful for the environment, at some point we need to actually have some centrality that gives
it enough competitive advantage against the conventional system thats out there.
Sean: Lets talk a bit about this conventional system. When you say that agriculture has been a
failure, are you talking about conventional petrochemical agriculture?
Aaron: Definitely, in terms of conventional petrochemical agriculture. Its a failure. It wont
work long-term. From a geological timeline, its been a very short experiment. And it does not
restore the resources that are necessary to continue doing it. So thats true. However, agriculture,
which has only been around since the beginning of the Holocene, so about 10,000 years give or

take. And when I say agriculture, I mean the intentional production of food for
our consumption. That system, which is organic agriculture, has been a failure as
well because we have yet to devise a system that continues to foster the
resources required to grow the food indefinitely.
This is where we get into the difference between perennial systems and annual systems. All of
the food that we produce for our own consumption -- not all but most -- are annual plants. And
annual plants in isolation tend to be intensive and reduce the resources that are there, primarily
the soil resources, to continue producing that food.
Perennial systems are self-renewing. So, trees or grasslands with animals that graze those
grasses. Those systems actually build time, and the annual systems tend to take away those
systems. In other words, all of the very, I think, good and the best models of organic agriculture
out there, they require inputs.
Think of your bank account. If you had a bank account that you never put anything into or you
never had those resources invested so that they were getting some interest or some return, and
you only went to the ATM and took it out, eventually, no matter how big your bank account is,
its going to be empty. And thats what an annual system is.
So even the best of the organic systems out there, they require inputs. And the conventional
system uses chemicals. And the organic systems use inputs, so complexed chemistry.
And the annual systems require inputs. But we tend to use organic inputs. But still, in all the
farming systems comparison research thats done, the systems of organic agriculture that actually
function require some animal waste input, some type of manure as an input.
Sean: That leads us to our next question. And this might ruffle a few feathers out there. Youve
said that you support vegans in their choice of not eating meat. But in your opinion, vegetarians
are hypocrites. Whats up with that?
Aaron: Im purposefully actually trying to ruffle feathers there because when it comes to
information, a little bit can go a long way. But it can also go the wrong way. And so what Ive
said in groups is if youre a vegan, if youre Ingrid Newkirk, Ive got your back because you
have more than enough moral and ethical provocation to not want to participate in the
conventional confinement animal system.
And so if you have cloth seats in your Prius, if youre wearing canvas tennis shoes, then Ive got
your back. I support your choice. Its sound morally. Its not very sound ecologically.
However, if youre a vegetarian...if you have leather seats in your Prius, if youre wearing leather
tennis shoes, if you consume any dairy products out there, then unfortunately with all good intent
youre still a hypocrite. And Ill clarify that because thats the opportunity. I want to ruffle your

feathers. And then I want you to listen to the point, whether you agree with it or
not, particularly in the case of dairy.
And a lot of vegetarians will eat cheese. Now theyre making this choice because
they want a smaller footprint in this world that they fundamentally disagree with. And disagree
with it they should. However, unless theyre sourcing dairy that they know is pastured and grassfed...Dairy is one of the most dysfunctional sectors of the livestock industry. And the reason is
that we have this very unfair expectation of extracting milk from an animal thats actually
producing it for her offspring. And so its become this very imbalanced system.
And when we move into grass-fed dairies, its a very difficult game to play because the
economics dont function as well when we cant manipulate that animal. In other words, give her
hormones to make her milk more so we can actually get more money for the time spent.
Unfortunately, very little milk on the market that we can access is produced in that pastured
sense. So if youre eating cheese in any situation out there where you cant actually identify the
source, its touching somewhere that conventional industry.
And then the other thing is is that even if youre eating cheese or yogurt or some dairy product
and its sustainably produced, for a cow to produce milk she has to have a calf. We have yet to
breed cows that only have female calves. And Im sure every dairyman out there would love to
figure out how to get Monsanto to genetically create that cow. But we dont. So pretty much on
average, every other calf is a boy. And those boys become meat. Thats the game.
Its the same in poultry. The girl chickens get kept to make eggs. If you buy a Rosie chicken--if
youve heard of Rosie chicken from Petaluma Poultry--thats actually not a girl. The broilers are
boys. And its an unfortunate thing from a moral standpoint. But this comes into really the crux
of my argument or where my thesis has evolved over time, which is were at this interesting
point in our development as a species and our development in terms of civilization where were
completely unaware of the fact that we are just another animal within the broad diversity of
animals on the planet.
Sean: So to add to that, Aaron...so youre saying that veganism can be understandable from an
emotional or religious point of view, but it isnt very ecological. So with all the noise about how
eating meat is bad for the environment, how can that be?
Aaron: Right. Well that circles back to what system are we talking about? And when we look at
the conventional system, its extremely harsh ecologically. So youre right there. But when you
look at the practitioners of holistic management or some of the more ecological livestock
producers out there like Joel Salatin and a lot of other people that are doing things very similar,
their systems are actually patterned after the ecology. And so were finding that they are
beneficial to the system.

In fact, not just beneficial, but an ecosystem devoid of biodiversity...and that

means all life, whether its bacteria and fungi in the soil or it is an elephant
grazing. Our ecosystem cannot move forward or maintain without that
interaction. And so where we are right now from this perspective...in other
words, you mentioned all of the noise out there about how eating meat is bad for the
environment, its all based on these conventional systems.
And of course, cutting down rain forests to grow GMO corn to feed to animals is a ridiculous
notion. Its absurd. And were going to see, if we cant see it right now, which I dont know how
you cant, but in the near future were going to see how destructive that system is.
Now, Im not suggesting that we graze rain forests. But many people have taken some of these
very brittle environments -- Allan Savory is one who showed it to us in Africa and then here in
the southwest -- that when we restore these systems of biodiversity, when we put these herding
animals back together in herds and manage them the way that predators did historically, the
grasses return. And what happens is when you clothe the soil with biomass, with plant life, you
restore the water cycle. You heal the watershed. And suddenly biodiversity explodes. Neglect is
not the answer.
So the interactions are critical. If grass is not grazed, grass will not continue to grow. And the
point is life is a predatory nutrient cycle. We like to think were not part of that. But we are. And
I like to tell people if theyre uncomfortable being an animal which eats meat because we are
omnivores, and they dont agree with that and they dont think theyre part of this predatory
nutrient cycle, they should go lay naked in a very active flower bed for about a month. Because
the opportunists will actually consume us when the time comes. Were part of the food web. And
thats how it works.
Sean: I want you to expand on that. I find that to be a very interesting quote there, Life is a
predatory nutrient cycle. Talk more about that. Enlighten us more on that one, Aaron!
Aaron: Again, it comes back to how being in this civilization is based on convenience and
comfort. I like to say convenience killed the cat because, again, were not lazy. But were very
narcissistic as an animal. And we tend to only view things from our perspective.
And I believe this is the first time. And again Im not a scientist. Im somebody who has spent
about 7 years myopically fixated in the world of agriculture, environment, and human health.
And if I were a super computer, itd be great. Its more like shoving a bunch of information into a
cement mixer and seeing what comes out.
But from my perspective and what Ive learned, for the first time, we are the current apex
predator in the ecosystem and the keystone species. And that means were the top level predator.
And no one predates on us, really. Its just the opportunistic [situation where] if we die, then the
decomposers will get us.

And what happens to us will have profound affect on everything else in the
ecosystem. And that might be debatable. And if theres a scientist out there that
disagrees with it, Id love to hear the thesis, and Ill adopt it.
But what happens because of that, the fact is that we understand this if we listen to evolutionary
biologists out there. But in terms of the zeitgeist of humans, its not part of our consciousness.
Weve lost that piece of our ethos. And yet theres a fragment of it down there. We all know it.
And yet were in denial or were unconscious of it.
And so again, its very well-intended to say, I dont want to kill to feed myself. And yet, my
question, then, [is] if we know that these animals are dependent, their actual existence is
dependent on predation. Right? Its the predation that keeps the numbers in check and culls the
herd so the herd is a manageable size. If that doesnt happen, those animals will disappear.
And so its our obligation as, again, the current dominant species on the planet to understand this
and then figure out how to compassionately participate, how to compassionately predate and
manage the herd, so to speak.
Sean: Sounds like theres a lot of issues and problems out there with our food supply, food
system, whatever you may call it. So Im sure our Summit attendees are wondering, What
exactly is the answer in your opinion, Aaron?
Aaron: We need to become conscious on that kind of ethos level that we are just a part of the
system. I liked saying early on that I didnt go out into the world and do a fair, balanced
assessment of conventional agriculture versus organic agriculture. I basically sought out the
practitioners of agriculture that were a functional component of their ecosystem, not the
perceptual driver of it.
And we have to stop thinking that just because we have this intellectual capacity that it makes us
any more important from an ecological standpoint. Because if it werent for protozoa, we
wouldnt exist. Right? If it werent for bacteria and fungi, we wouldnt exist. The ecosystem that
were a part of, its not here because of humans. We need to credit the many species that came
before us that actually were required to create a biosphere that could support our life.
And yet now we have this real unconsciousness about how critical that system out there is to our
survival such that we unconsciously make decisions on a daily basis that are leading towards, not
just our extinction, but the extinction of a lot of other species.
There were some major extinction events that happened at the end of the Pleistocene, which was
about, again, right when agriculture started was the end of the Pleistocene. And the arrival of
hominids is what preceded that. Now, whether thats directly related or not, you be the judge. But
as a friend of mine likes to say, If I was the D.A., and I looked at the evidence, it would appear

that the disruption of those systems by us, the really smart monkeys, is what
helped collapse what was probably the most functional -- in terms of abundance
and carrying capacity -- system that weve had since the dinosaurs on the
planet.
And so were very likely in the midst of what you could call the Holocene extinction event,
which would include us. And yet, from a geological timeline, when your lifespan is 80 or so
years, how are you connected to the fact that, from a geological timeline, we might be gone in
2,000 years? Or if we continue the path were on, its very likely that well be gone.
Sean: Big question for you. Do you honestly think that were ever going to get there? And if so,
whats our biggest obstacle to getting there?
Aaron: Do I think we can get there? Absolutely! You know, I have 2 children. I have nothing
else to spend my time on but to try to help us get to a place where we understand this. And kind
of going back and recapping from the last question, the answer is really adopting a system that is
perennial. Its based on a very different suite of foods than were used to.
And whats beautiful about this is when you look at a perennial system, which is very animalbased. Its based on broad diversity of animals. Its based on grasses that grow simply by the
interaction of the animals that eat them. It produces a tremendous amount of very dense nutrition
in terms of protein and fat. And then when you add trees to that, you have nuts and berries. You
have the opportunity for a lot of tubers. Its basically the Paleo diet. So these two things are
synching up.
What we found is good for us is actually really good for the environment. And isnt that a
sustainable system? When we want whats actually good to produce. Once we have that
perennial system, we can grow as many annuals within it as we want. So we can still make bread
and we can still have our tomatoes.
In Australia where theyve had to adopt these new systems because of their drought
conditions...And by the way, their extinction event in Australia happened, again, right after the
arrival of hominids about 40,000 years ago. So back to the evidence.
But if you take Colin Seis in Australia, hes been pasture cropping. So here in the conventional
system, we till the soil. We basically kill everything. We spray it with herbicide. We spray it with
fungicides and pesticides. And then we try to grow a crop in that sterile environment. We harvest
the crop and then we leave it fallow. And then the rain comes and washes the soil away. Or well
grow a cover crop.
But in Australia, Colin Seis has figured out that he grazes his land down. So hes producing
animal protein. And then he overseeds or interseeds his grain crop. And then that grain crop

grows. And then he harvests it. And then the pasture wakes up and grows. And
its this continual system.
And the grazing of the animals does two things. It puts residue down. So it puts
organic matter back into the soil, so it feeds microbes and actually builds soil organic matter,
which sequesters water and does all the things that the system needs.
But then theyre also inoculating with their manure that system. So theyre actually playing the
fertilizer role directly rather than us going and collecting fertilizer and adding it or making it
from natural gas, which is what the conventional system does.
So this understanding of a perennial landscape, a perennial system, and our capacity to steward it
and build the biological equity, lets say, of the ecosystem to an extent where we know what our
balance sheet is, and then being disciplined enough to not debt the system, to not take out more
than our management is putting in is critical. I dont want to be overly dramatic. But its pretty
simple. Its critical to the survival of our species and a lot of other higher species on the planet.
Bacteria and fungi, those guys are going to last. You know? Cockroaches and some of the
simpler species are going to do fine. Its those of us that require special treatment that arent
going to be able to exist very long. And when you look at the rate of desertification on the planet,
it should be obvious to us that once we lose the ability to actually keep plant life on this planet,
we go away. And thats happening all over the planet at an astounding rate.
And the great thing is, and why I do believe well get there, or I do believe we can get there, is
reestablishment of herding animals in grasslands is this very extensive and effective and rapid
way.
Growing trees is one way, but its a slower, longer-term process. But the significance of grass
with ruminants or grazing animals, that is a very rapid way to kind of restore these systems that
were dependent on.
Sean: So what would you say is the biggest obstacle that were facing in all of this?
Aaron: The biggest obstacle is I guess what we would call civilization. You know, its this notion
that our interest is primary. And then its what weve kind of determined that interest to be. I
mentioned holistic management earlier. And a friend of mine who I met in this process, Allan
Savory, he created holistic management. And a lot of people think holistic management is about
animals and managing animals. And its not.
What Allan did is he sat down and he looked at the degradation of ecosystems everywhere -Africa, Texas, everywhere he went. He tried to find what the common link was between what
Ive heard him say was global ecosystem malfunction. And you could call that global

warming. You could call that desertification, whatever you want. Its really
system dysfunction within our ecosystem, or ecosystem dysfunction.
And what he found or what his thesis ended up being and is the basis of the book
Holistic Management is that its how we make decisions. And what he did is he devised a
framework for decision-making. Its a fairly simple process. Its difficult to, I think, Grok or
comprehend because we just dont think that way. But really, its a way of making decisions that
are sound socially, environmentally, and economically short- and long-term simultaneously.
And when you say it like that, people, Im sure, would say, Well, I try to do that all the time.
But in fact, back to the biggest obstacle in our way, if you look at our current system, we think
about things ecologically. You know, we try to recycle. We try to buy this thing over that thing or
whatever. We try to think about social things. Theres a lot of philanthropy. But again, the
fixation is on poverty. And it really comes back to economics.
If you look at our entire system, its all based on economics. At the end of the day, no matter how
triple bottom line we try to be, the global system runs on money. And Im not faulting that. Its
certainly functional in some respects. But what Ive observed is that every bad decision, even
with the best intent, has been ultimately rationalized for economic reasons.
Sean: This has been great information, Aaron. What I like a lot about you is that youve been on
the farm. And youve had that experience. And thats something that John Wood recommended.
Thats what Joel Salatin recommended, as well, is to get to know your farmers.
And so on your website www.wearewhatweeat.org, theres kind of a mini-movie over there with
your experience being on different farms. Do you want to talk about that?
Aaron: Thats how it started. I was a producer in San Francisco. I started a family at 39. And I
didnt have a long tenure in the corporate world. So it was long enough for me to kind of
determine that I didnt agree with what I was contributing to. And within the context of being
responsible for bringing children into the world, I really had some questions about what I was
reinforcing in terms of their future. And so it wasnt a very well-thought out economic choice.
I decided to go out and contribute to something I thought was important. And I knew a farmer
named Bob Kennard here in California. I met soil biologist Elaine Ingham. And I kind of
followed them out to my first Acres U.S.A. event. Your listeners should go subscribe to Acres
U.S.A. if they want to know more about this world.
Then I followed Elaine to the Soil Association in London. Thats where I met Sally Fallon for the
first time. And it just was a snowball that took me through...I like to say that it feels like it was a
graduate program, actually. I got to go out and spend a lot of time with the whos who. I spent a
lot of time at Polyface in Virginia with Joel and his family and the interns that have been there
over the time that Ive been there -- interns and apprentices. And Ive just been able to travel

around the world a little bit, the country a lot, and logging hours with the people
that are really kind of pushing the envelope on this.
Chad Peterson in Nebraska and Neil Dennis up in Saskatchewan...these guys
have taken animal management to the Nth degree by, again, stocking animals in a way that
nobody would have ever done and conventional range management suggests that you dont do.
But by herding them in the same way predators did traditionally, and moving them frequently
and allowing the land to recover fully after that, theyve started to show us that our
understanding of how these systems work is very broken. And theyre influenced by Allan
Savory again, someone who had a profound effect on my understanding what was possible and
what wasnt happening.
So its been an interesting process. And digressing a bit here, but I went off and I did that for
about 3 years and then I ran out of financial resources. I thought I would certainly get to the other
shore by 3 years. And I didnt. And the reason is is that had I just gone out for 6 months and
written a thesis and went about kind of investigating the thesis and then putting that into a film
and putting it out there, I would have been fine. But the line blurred. And I became more a part
of the story. And what I realized was that while, again, all the tools are on the shelf, we dont
have, again, a workable model where someone can just pick it up and go and succeed with it.
Right now, probably the most successful layered farm or diverse production farm where more
than one thing is happening...And thats critical because in our conventional systems we favor
monocultures. And monocultures are why we have to use pesticides and deal with the inequities
of a system that doesnt have balance.
The most impressive, I think, and advanced, diverse farm that I can point to is Polyface Farm in
Virginia. Its Joels. And Ive said a long time now that Joel will not be remembered as a farmer.
Hell be remembered as the preeminent ecologist of our time. And the reason is that hes figured
out how to actually steward a diverse ecosystem. Well, Joels farm, its a full ecosystem. So it has
forested uplands and then it has lowland pastures. And its based on a hundred to two hundred
acres of pasture. And then another thousand plus acres of leased grazing land so that he can allow
proper recoveries based on his grazing management. And that is an impressive system. But when
you look at global food production, its a sad state of affairs that thats what we point to.
And so I dont have a happy ending to this story yet. I would say my happy ending so far is that
were starting to accept some of these ideas that are extreme. Ive gotta bounce away for a
second because in terms of nutrition, we still think fat causes obesity and heart disease, right?
And what were going to find out in probably not too distant future is that fats probably the most
critical nutrient for us. Well be running up to the Tour de France leader and handing him a cup
of lard inside of ten years if we really start to understand how the system works. And yet we still
market food as low-fat, no fat, as if it has any value.
And the same thing in the other side of the food world, which is the food production side. We

have all of these assumptions that we just act like theyre facts because weve
reinforced those notions over time and theres consensus. And yet were starting
to undo some of those beliefs that are running the show.
So what I do know is theres this very encouraging generating. I dont want to blow smoke into
Joels nether regions, but I mean, credit where credit is due. And one of the things Joel says is
that the most important things that he produces are young, bright-eyed, bushy-tailed
entrepreneurs. He has this apprenticeship program and intern program where he really affects
people that are open to doing this type of work.
And not just the people that have come through that, but a lot of the other twenty-somethings,
well say, that are out there without a concept of having economic fantasy that is the American
dream. Their value system and the desire to be connected to the natural system and these things
that are critical and matter, theyre out there in force. And they have the information. And once
they get it, they kind of have taken the ball and run with it.
So if we can keep the, lets say, the systems that we know are starting to fail -- economic,
medical, all of those things. If we can keep those at bay enough to allow these emerging ideas
and truths to come into real significance and scale, if you will, then I think weve got a good
chance to actually kind of come through this thing.
Sean: Aaron Lucich, great presentation! We truly appreciate your work and your knowledge.
Your website is www.wearewhatweeat.org. Everybody go over there and check out the flick hes
got there.
Aaron, thanks so much for being part of The Real Food Summit!
Aaron: Its a real pleasure, Sean. Thank you so much.