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brauniver

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PostedSep262005:1:33:01PM

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@David

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InthekhechariMudrathread(
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=359)
youwroteaboutatechniquecalled"tooledtalavya
kriya".

EasyLessons

Iminterestedinthismethod.Itwouldbeniceifyou
couldexplainthewayhowyoupracticeit.Wouldyoudo
that?

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Thanks

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david_obsidian
USA
2602Posts

PostedSep262005:6:30:17PM

HiOliver,
yes,I'dbehappytotellyouhowIdidit,orshouldsay,
doit.Firstly,'tooledtalavya'isonlyanameIhavemade
forthetechnique,whichIevolvedmyself.

SambhaviMudra

quote:

AsanasPostures
>>>(Icallit'tooledtalavya'.)ButI'mnotgoingtopostit
upforgeneraluse,(atleastnotnowImayconvince
myselftolater)becauseIthinkitrequiresmoreskillthan
thecuticlesnipperbasedmethodinordertodoitwell.This
alternativetechniquethoughallowsformuchmore
significant,andthereforemuchfasterfrenumsnipping,and
isparticularlyhelpfulwhenthefrenumnolongerprotrudes
fromthesurfaceoftheundersideofthetongue,asinmy
case.

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OK,soIhavebeenconvincedtoputitup.Solet'sbe
clearthatthisisasortofheavydutywaythatIclipmy
frenum.Itrequiresmoreskillandallowsmorerapid
progressintheclipping.Alltheusualcommentsabout
selfpacingapply.Mostpeopleprobablywillnotneedor
wanttodothis,andmanypeoplemightbewelladvised
notto.Ingeneral,thecompleteremovalofthefrenumis
notneededforevenadvancedKecharipractice.(Seethe
commentsfromYoganibelow.)

EnlightenmentSeries

Butinmyparticularcase,Istartedmeditatingabout20
yearsago,andifIhadknownaboutfrenumsnipping
thenIwouldcertainlyhavedoneit.Ievenclippedonce
ortwicewithoutbeingtold,asImentionedbeforeonthe
forum.Imighthavedoneitgraduallythen,ifIhad
knownitwasapractice,Idon'tknow,butinanycaseI

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feelreadytocatchupwithamorerapidsnipping.(It
seemsthatsomestrange'karma'stoppedmefindingout
aboutfrenumsnippingthroughallthoseyears,becauseI
movedinYogicandevenKriyayogacircles,readvarious
books,buthappentohaveomittedcertainwellknown
onesthattalkaboutfrenumsnipping!)
Iactuallystarteddoingfastersnippingintwodifferent
ways,andI'lltalkaboutthemboth.First,Istartedtodo
chunkiersnipping,usingthecuticlesnipperI'mcalling
thetechnique'graspandclip'.

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WARNINGSANDDISCLAIMERThisisnotadviceto
anyonetofollowmylead.Thispracticeisdoing
minorsurgeryononeselfandcarriesrisks.I
estimatedtherisksformyself,basedonmyownskill
andknowledgeset,andcannottellyoudefinitively
whatthoserisksareIamnotasurgeonordoctor,
andIamnotanykindofexpertinwhattheserisks
are.Ifyoudothisyoumayfacehigherrisksbased
on,butnotlimitedtothefollowing:yourabilityto
discernfrenumfromtongue,manualdexterity,
eyesight,tongueabnormalities,differentanatomyto
mine,orevenmedicalissuesunkowntome,orother
risksunknown.Andifyouarenotanadult,be
advisedbymenottoeventhinkofdoingthis!
[IfsomepeoplefromoutsidetheU.S.arelookingin,
theymightthinkIamcrazy,butIamnot,Iam
protectingmyselffrombeingsuedinthiscountrywhich
isalittlecrazyinsomeways.Ifeltlikeadding"youmay
faceadditionalrisksbasedonpossiblelackofcommon
sense",butIstoppedshortofit,figuringthat,ifthe
worstcomestotheworst,thatphrasewouldbackfireby
turningthejuryagainstme. ]
Atthesametime,havingsaidallthat,herearemy
beliefsonthematter.Idon'tpersonallythinktheriskof
anythingseriousisveryhigh.Ipersonallythinktherisks
ofthisaresmallpotatoescomparedtotherisksof,say,
rockclimbingorscubadiving,orridingamotorbikeor
evendrivingacar.Atthesametimethough,ifyou
developasignificantinfection,youshouldcertainlygoto
adoctortoseeifitneedstobetreated.
Ifyoudohappentodothis,bytheway,(andIam*not*
advisingyouto)youshouldknowwhattodoifyoucause
unexpectedbleeding.Thiscouldhappenifyou
inadvertentlyclippedevenaminorveinforexample.
Simplyapplypressuretothebleedingspotwithaclean
fingeruntilitclots,whichshouldbeafewminutes.Or
applyacleanpadmadeofcottonwoolorgauzetothe
woundandapplypressuretothat.
Also,besuretowashthemouthoutafterwardswith
cleanwaterandkeeptheareaclean.

YogaFAQ
SanskritGlossary

MYHEAVIERCLIPPINGPRACTICE'Graspandclip'

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WhatIstartedtorealizeisthatIcouldmakeanice,
carefulcutinthefrenumbygrabbingsomefrenum
betweenmythumbandindexfingerofmylefthand(I
amrighthanded)andusingalittlepressurebetween
fingerandthumbtomakeathinverticalridgeoffrenum.
Then,whilestillholdingthislittleridgeoffrenumwith
mylefthand,Ibroughtthecuticlesnipperinwithmy
righthandandclippedthatridgejustabovethefinger
andthumbthatwereholdingit.Iwascarefulnotto
maketheridgesobig,ortrytoclipsomuchthatthe

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cuticlesnipperwouldnotcutthroughitallinoneclip.I
didthiswhilelookinginthemirroratitallsoIcouldsee
whatIwasdoing.
[Itcanbealittletricky.Thehardbitisprobablynot
gettingthegripofaridgeoffrenumthehardbitis
usingtherighthandtogetthesnipperoverthegripping
lefthandwithoutobscuringthegrippedridgeoffrenum.
Thiscanbedonethoughtherighthandslidesthe
clipperOVERthegrippingfingersofthelefthandand
keepsitselfdownandoutoftheway.Itdoesrequire
holdingtheclipperlowerdownonthehandle,sothatitis
theclipper(notthefingersoftherighthand)that
extendsoverthegrippingfingersofthelefthand.The
fingersofyourrighthandwouldobscureyourview,but
theclipperissmallandthinenoughtnotto.Asusual,
youmayneedtotiltyourheadupalittlewhilelookingin
themirror.]
Havingdonethat,Ihadalittleholeinmyfrenum.ThenI
extendedthisslitbygrabbingitagainbutthistime
includingoneendoftheslitinwhatIgrabbed,sothata
clippingactionextendedtheholeorslit.
Ifyoudon'tunderstandwhatImeanbyextendit,toget
abettersenseofwhatIwasdoing,imaginetryingtocut
awidehorizontalslitinathickcurtainusingacuticle
snipper,whichcanonlycutasmallslit.Awaytodothis
istomakealittleridgeinthecurtainbetweentwo
fingers,cliptheridgewiththesnipper.Now,youmight
wanttomaketheslitwiderthanyouhavesofar.Sonow
youmakeanotherridgewhichincludesoneendofthe
lastcut(eithertherightortheleftend),andclipthat.
Thisextendstheslit.Andyoucanrepeat,acheiving
symmetrybyworkingontheotherside.
Ifoneweretodothis,onewouldhavetobecarefulto
begettingfrenumallthetimeinthatridge,andno
tongueproperwithitsveinsandarteries.Somethings
workinyourfavorheretomakethatlesslikelythe
frenumdoesnothurtsomuchwhenclipped,buttherest
ofthetonguedoeshurtalot.Also,thefrenumgetshard
whentaut,buttherestofthetonguedoesnotsomuch.
Ifyoustartinthemiddleandclip,asyougetcloserto
thetongueproper,youwouldnaturallywanttomake
smallerandsmallerclips.

Questions&Answers

Havingmadeoneslitacrossthefrenumlikethat,ifit
wasnottoodeepIfoundIcouldenteritagainand
repeattheprocess,makingadeeperslit.
Ihavealsotriedenteringtheslitagainafewdayslater,
butIbackedawayfromthat.Thatisbecausethefibers
tendtobedenselypackednearthesurfaceonahealed
frenum,butlesssofurtherunderthesurface.So,deeper
itcouldbebothsorerandtherewouldnotbesomany
fibersperunitdepth.Sotherewouldbemoreslobber,
bloodanddiscomfort,andlesspayoff.Ifigureditwas
bettertowaittheweekortwoforitalltohealandthe
surfacetocollectadensepackoffibers.Themilkingthe
tongue(whichIdobutnotintheshower,butratherI
simplyuseacottonhandkerchieftohelpgrabmy
tongue)seemedtohelptospeedupgettingthefibersup
tothesurface.Butonemightnotwanttobothermilking
thetongueforthefirstdayortwoafterasignificant
snipping.
Ifoundthatheavierclippingdidproducealotoftongue
extension,andprettyquickly.Thiscontinuedwhilethere
wasalwayssomeridgeoffrenumonthesurface.

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Butwiththefrequentclipping,thefrenumdiminished
quickly,andeventuallytheridge/bulgedisappeared.With
theridge/bulgegone,itwasdifficulttoclipusingthe
heavierclippingmethod.Atthispoint,whenIstretchmy
tongueupwards,thefrenalareainthemiddleisactually
nowinagrooveratherthanaridge,withthevenous
tongueareabulgingoneitherside.
Therewerestillplentyoflimitingfrenumfibersandthey
werestillonthesurfaceandunderit,butnolongerina
ridge.
Inthiscase,however,afactofmyanatomycametomy
aid.
[Now,manypeoplewouldprobablyfindthattheirtongue
extensionwasfinewhentheywereatthispoint.So
manypeoplewouldnothaveanyneedtogofurther.]
ThisiswhenIdevisedwhatIcalled'tooledtalavya'.I
thinkIhaveseenaversionof'talavyakriya'inwhichthe
tongueispulledoutandscrapedonthelowerteeth.Even
innormaltalavykriya,thefrenumisultimatelycuton
thelowerteeth.WhatIdevisedisamoreefficientand
decisiveversionofthiskindofaction.
WhatIdiscoveredisthatwhenIpulledthetongueout,
makingitalittletaut,thefrenumwouldtendtobulge
outalittle,butatthebottom,closetowherethelower
teethwouldcutitifitwerescrapedonthem.
ENTER'TOOLEDTALAVYA'
WhatIcalled'tooledtalavya'ispullingthetongueout,
makingittaut,andcuttingthefrenumwhereitistautat
thebottom,prettymuchwhereitwouldtouchthelower
teethifyoutriedtoscrapeitonthem.Now,howtocut
it?Aknifeisnotquitetherighttoolbecauseitisnot
focussedenough.Neitheristhecuticlesnipperany
more.IfiguredIneededtomakemyown.WhatIcame
upwithisasmallsharpenedscrewdriver.
Thescrewdriveritselfisverysmall,about6cmlong,
witha2.5mm'head'.WhatIdidwasturnthatflathead
intoaroughlysemicircularblade.Thisisidealand
correspondsroughlytoaverysharpsmalltooth.Forthis
Igotafile,andsculpteditdowntothedesiredshape.
Thefile,however,whilegoodfortheinitialshaping,may
notbegoodforthesharpeningIacquiredasharpening
'stone'inahardwarestore.Youshouldfollowthe
manufacturer'sinstructionsonthestoneforthe
sharpening.Formineyouuseoilorwater,holdtheblade
atacertainangle,andscrapeinacertainway.Forthe
stoneIhave,youscrapeforwardwiththeblade,almost
asifslicingintothestoneatasharpangle.SoonceI
hadtheinitialroughshapeitbecameacaseof
sharpening(usingthestone)eachtimeIwantedtodo
thetooledtalavya(thebladewillbluntbyitselfbetween
uses).Becausethebladeissemicircular(roughly)it
requiresasharpeningprocessthatapproachesfrom
manydifferentangles,andyouwanttodoitonboth
sidesoftheblade.You'dneedtohavecertainintuitions
abouthowtoacheivethis.
(Maybesomeonecanfindaninstrumentjustas
appropriatethatisavailablereadymade.IftheydidI'd
behappytolearnaboutit.ThebestIwasabletocome
upwithwasthis.)
Icutasquareoutofacottonhandkerchiefabout6cm
eachside.ThisIusedinmylefthandinordertograb
mytongenearthetipandpullitout.Youcouldalsouse
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alightgloveforthispurposeyoujustneedsomething
withwhichtogetagripontheslipperytongue.Buta
fullsizedhandkerchiefisnotgoodbecauseitwill
obscureyourviewasyoudotheprocedurelookinginthe
mirror.
NowIlookedinthemirrorandsurveyedthepartofmy
tongueinquestion.WhenIpulled,aridge/bandcameup
thereanditwastaut.Whilestilllookingatitallinthe
mirror,Ibroughtthesharpenedscrewdriverupwithmy
righthand,andbegantocutaslitcrosswaysonthis
band.
Thistookalittlegettingusedto.Lineofsightandangle
isalittletightandyouneedgoodlighting.ButwhatI
foundwasthataftertheinitialentry,itbecamemuch
easier,asthefirstslitisaguidefortherestofit.
OnceIgotundertheskin,Ifoundthatthecuttingaction
ismorelikescrapingthannormalcutting.Inthis
technique,Iscrapethefiberswiththeedgeoftheblade
andtheybreak.Allthewhile,Ikeepthetonguepulled
withtheotherhandsothefibersaretaut.Ifyouimagine
carpetembeddedinflesh,andhavingtocutthatcarpet,
theprocessisalittlelikethat.Ormorelikecutting
acrossapieceoftwineembeddedinflesh.Isometimes
found,whileIwascutting,theneedtohonetheblade
furtherthebladewasnotnecessarilyuniformlysharp
andneededsomemoreworkwhenapproachingfroma
certainangle,etc.
HowdidImakesureIwascuttingtherightthing?Some
thingsworkinmyfavor.OneisofcoursethatIcut
whereitwastaut.Theotherthingisthescrapingaction
andthefeelingofit,whichguidesme.Thecuttingeven
makesa'tinktink'or'thunkthunk'soundasthefibers
break.Soyougetusedtothefeelofcuttingthefrenum,
anditdoesn'treallyhurt.
AsIstartedtoapproachthesidesofthebandoffrenum
itwouldstarttogetsore,warningmeofffromcutting
intothetongue.ButIworkedhereverycarefullyand
completedthecuttotheedgeoftheband.
IthinkIwouldusuallygoabout1.52mmdeep.Ifyou
gomuchfurther,thephenomenonisasdescribedabove
itgetsmoresensitive,morebloody,andyougetless
fibersbecausetheyarelessdenselypacked.SoI
sometimesretrimmedafewhoursorevenadaylater,
butthenthatwastheendofituntilithealedfully.
Theprocesstakesmenowabout1520minutes,
includingallsharpening.Iamdoingitaboutevery2
weeks.
Regardingtongueextensionhistory,bythetimeIhadto
startusingtooledtalavya,Ifoundthatalmostallthe
remainingfibersatthebottomwerealmostequally
limiting,whichsuggeststomethatmyextensionwillbe
prettymuchonaplateauuntiltheyareallgone.Andthat
isprettymuchwhatIamfinding.I'vebeendoingtooled
talavyaformaybethreemonthsnow,andtherehasbeen
alotofprogressingettingtheamountofremaining
frenumsmallerandsmaller,butnotmuchgainin
extensionuntilmaybeafewmoremonthswhenitshould
allbegone.
QUESTION
Q.Couldyouhaveusedtooledtalavyaratherthanheavy
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clippingintheearlierstages?
IthinkIcould.I'mnotsureabouttherelativemeritsof
thetechiqueswhentheyarebothpossible.However,my
ownsubjectivesenseinmycaseisthatIampersonally
actuallysaferfrominadvertantlycuttingaveindoing
'tooledtalavya'thanthe'graspandclip'techniqueI
mentionedabove.Thisisbecausethecuttingintooled
talavyaisalwaysgradual,afractionofamillimeterata
timeasyouscrapedownintothefrenum.Likecuttinga
carpet,youalwaysknowwhethercarpetisthereornot.
Afteraninitiallearningprocessyoucangetverygoodat
tooledtalavya.

NotesandfurtherCAUTIONSontheinstrument:
AgainIamnotadvisinganyonetofollowmyleadbutif
theydo,I'dliketomakeaddafewcautionsaboutthe
instrumentanditsuse.
Obviously,clean/sterilizetheinstrumentbeforeuse.
Iwouldcautionpeopleagainstusinganinstrumentwitha
verysmallheadforthepurpuse,suchasajeweller's
screwdriver.Suchheadsaresosmallthatifsharpened,
theinstrumentwouldbelikeanail.Ifyoustabbed
yourselfdeeplywithsuchathing,youcouldcreatearisk
oftetanus.Sodon'tmakesomethingyoucouldeasily
stabyourselfdeeplywithandleaveaclosedwound.The
objectiveisaclearopenwound,withwhichtetanusis
notarisk.
Theinstrumentshouldbesharp,butdoesn'tneedtobe
*that*sharp,andprobablyshouldnotbe.Thereissome
safetygainedfromthefactthatitisnottoosharp.Sharp
enoughtocutacarpet,butnotscalpelsharp.
Obviously,suchaninstrumentshouldbekeptwellaway
fromchildren.Alsobeaware,ifyoumakesuchathing,
thatyouhavesomethingthatcouldbeconsidereda
dangerousweaponincertaincases,andindeed,could
easilybemistakenforone,assharpenedscrewdrivers
havebeenusedasweaponsinholdups.Inparticular,
don'tmakethemistakeofcarryingsuchathingwithyou
onyourpersonorinyourhandluggageasyoutryto
boardaplane!!!

Andsotheretheyare,'graspandclip'and'tooled
talavya'.
Ihopesomeonefindsthathelpful.Or,ifnothelpful,
entertaining.
David

Editedbydavid_obsidianonMar10200611:54:06AM

yogani
USA
4839Posts

PostedSep272005:1:30:43PM

HiDavid:
Perhapsitshouldbepointedoutthat,forvastmajorityof
us,thecompleteremovalofthefrenumisnota
prerequisiteforenteringstage2kechariandbeyond.In
fact,somefolks(likeVictor)donothavetoremoveany

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frenumatalltomoveabovethesoftpalate.Inmycase,
onlyalittletrimmingwasnecessary,andIamstill
workingonitalittlebitnowandthensome20years
afterfirstenteringstage2kecharidrivenmoreby
undulatingwavesofbhaktithananyphysical
requirement.
Whiletrimmingthefrenum,atleastalittle,iscertainlya
factorformanyofusinachievinghigherkechari,itis
noteverything.Infact,withsomespecificknowledge
aboutwhere,howandinwhatdirectiontogo,manywho
maynotthinktheycanreachabovethesoftpalate
actuallycanrightnowitismuchcloserthanmost
peoplerealize.Therecanbeotherfactorsholdingus
back,andthesearemorerelatedtoourbhakti(spiritual
emotions)thantoourfrenum.Thereisnodoubtthat
reducingthefrenumreducesthechallengeofentry.But
itisnot"allornothing"withthefrenum,andIthinkyou
wouldagreethatkechariisnotmainlyaboutremoving
thefrenum,butaboutfollowingthebhaktiupward.
Isayallthisjusttoreducethepossibilityforany
confusiontoariseaboutthemeansandtheend.
Everyonehastheirownuniquecircumstancesinthis.As
youpointoutoneapproachdoesnotnecessarilyfitall.
Youaresharingyourexperience,whichisquiteunique.
Somemightregarditasextreme.Buttoeachtheirown.
Aparticularlycumbersomefrenummightrequiresuch
measures.Onlythepractitionercanknowforsure.
Mysuggestionis:
1)BhaktifirstDeepinyourheartyouareitchingtodo
thiskecharithing.Preferably,thatwillbelongafter
beingwellgroundedindeepmeditation,spinalbreathing
andothermudrasandbandhas.
2)Attemptswithfingerhelpgoingbackandupwiththe
tonguetotheextremeleftorrightsideofthebackedge
ofthesoftplate.Youmightbesurprisedwhatyoucando
withthis.
3)Considerfrenumtrimmingonlyasnecessarytogetup
there.Itmaybeverylittle.Itwasformeallthoseyears
ago.Maybesomewillneedmoretrimming,butitdoes
nothavetobe"all"forentry.Onceyouarein,andon
theecstaticsecretspotwithyourtongue,thefrenumwill
fadeinimportance,andwillonlybeaddressedasand
whenbhaktitogohighersurges.Thatmaybenext
week,nextyearornextdecade.Noneedtorush.Itis
bhaktiandourevolvingecstaticexperiencethatwill
defineourprogressinkechari,nottheimperativeofa
physicalalteration.Fromtheperspectiveofaseasoned
practitioner,kechariisnotaphysicalactatall.Itisa
spiritualact.
Thisisnottothrowcoldwateronanythingyouhave
shared,David.Yourexperienceisvalidforyou,andmay
beforothers.Itisonlytohelptemperitabitwitha
longerview.Practicewisely,andenjoy!
Theguruisinyou.
david_obsidian

PostedSep272005:1:58:22PM

USA
2602Posts

quote:
Originallypostedbyyogani
Thisisnottothrowcoldwateronanythingyouhaveshared,
David.Yourexperienceisvalidforyou,andmaybefor

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others.Itisonlytohelptemperitabitwithalongerview.
Practicewisely,andenjoy!
Theguruisinyou.

HelloYogani,
thanks.Yes,itisoutthereforpeoplewhomightfindit
goodforthem.I'veaddedafewmorenotesinthereon
whyitprobablywouldnotbeneededingeneral.Idon't
atallthinkyouarethrowingcoldwateronthis,infactI
thinkyouareveryrighttothrowinallthose
qualificationsandnuancesaboutit.Whereaspeoplemay
finditOKtodothisfortherightreasons,itisgoodfor
ustoprotecttowhatextentwecan,againstsomepeople
doingthisforthewrongreasons,(ormerelymakingthe
mistakeofthinkingthattheyaremissingoutbynot
doingit)andIamgladofanybackupinthateffortto
protectpeoplefromthosemistakes.
Bytheway,the'tooledtalavya'maysoundalittle
extreme,butinmycaseatleast,asIwassaying,
counterintuitively,Iactuallyfinditless'dodgy'than
chunkyclippingwiththeclipper,whichsomepeopleare
doinghereanywayalready,fortheirownreasons.I
thinkthenatureand'image'oftheinstrumentandthe
preparationofitcouldcausesomeprejudicesagainst
tooledtalavya.It'sprobablysafer(withtherightskill
anduse)thanchunkysnippingwiththeclipper(butof
courseverymodestclippingwiththeclipper,asyou
describeinthelessons,issurelysaferstill).
NotethatinsomesettingsinIndia,theyuseaknifefor
thepurpose,whichIwouldfindalothardertousewell
andsafelythanthetoolImade.
OneofthereasonsIputitoutisthatweare
participatinginanevolvingknowledgesethereandI
wanttodomybesttoplaymypart.Perhapstooled
talavyawillcometoberecognizedinthelongrunas
extremelyusefulincertaincases,butgenerallynot
necessary.Orperhapsitwillproveitselfusefultome
andtomealone.ButIthinkmuchmorelikelythe
former.Time(andtheexperimentmade)willtell.
David
Editedbydavid_obsidianonSep2720056:32:04PM

brauniver
Switzerland
39Posts

PostedSep282005:09:58:02AM

Wow,whatagreatreport.
quote:
Ihopesomeonefindsthathelpful.Or,ifnothelpful,
entertaining.

Itwasbothhelpfulandentertaining.AtthemomentIm
tryingtofindoutdifferentwaystocut,soitsgreatto
hearaboutyouradvancedtechniques.
Imnotsoadvancedinsnipping.Ibegannoneweekago
withitandatthemomentinmycaseitsreallyeasyto
doit.Thereisnaturallyagreatridgewithalotoffibres
Icancut.Buttheridgegetssmallerandsmaller.Thats
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whythe"tooledtalavyakriya"couldbeveryinteresting
insomeweeks.
WhatIdidntreallyunderstandis:
quote:
IthinkIwouldusuallygoabout34mmdeep

Isitrightunderstandingthatyoucut(orscrapand
scratch)34mmdeepintothetautestpartofyourflesh
andbecausethefleshincludesfibresandsothesefibres
breakforever?(AtmybeginninglevelIdontcutany
fleshatalljustfibresandlittleskin.ThatswhyImnot
shureabouthowitsgoingonatfurtherlevels)
quote:
I'vebeendoingtooledtalavyaformaybethreemonths
now,andtherehasbeenalotofprogressingettingthe
amountofremainingfrenumsmallerandsmaller,butnot
muchgaininextensionuntilmaybeafewmoremonths
whenitshouldallbegone

Yougetyourfrenumsmallerandsmallerbutthe
extensionsdidntgain?Whydoeslessfibresnotmean
moreextension?Whyallfibresmustbegone?
quote:
Maybesomeonecanfindaninstrumentjustasappropriate
thatisavailablereadymade.IftheydidI'dbehappyto
learnaboutit.ThebestIwasabletocomeupwithwas
this.)

Whataboutawoodcuttingtool?Theylookverysimilar
tothescrewdriveryoudescriped.Therearesomany
differentmodelsoneshouldfit.Youcanalsobuyjustthe
head(theknife)ofthetool.
WhatImeanarethistools:
http://laden13.de/a30336.jpg
TodayIwillgototownandbuydifferentcutting/scraping
tools.ThenIcheckoutdifferentmethodsandseewhich
onefitsbesttome.
Perhapsmymouthisjusttosmall(ormyhandstobig)
topractice"tooledtalavyakriya".Icantreallysee
anything.ButperhapswhenImusedtoititwillbe
easier.Iwillsee.
Thanksforthisreport
oliver

david_obsidian
USA
2602Posts

PostedSep282005:6:15:39PM

HelloOllie,
quote:

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"tooledtalavyakriya"AYPSupportForums
WhatIdidntreallyunderstandis:
quote:
IthinkIwouldusuallygoabout34mm
deep

Isitrightunderstandingthatyoucut(orscrapandscratch)
34mmdeepintothetautestpartofyourfleshandbecause
thefleshincludesfibresandsothesefibresbreakforever?(
AtmybeginninglevelIdontcutanyfleshatalljustfibres
andlittleskin.ThatswhyImnotshureabouthowitsgoing
onatfurtherlevels)

First,maybe34mmisanoverestimate(?)maybeitis
only1.52cm.Ifindithardtotellalsobecausethecutis
shallowerwhentautandthenitgetsdeeperwhenI
releaseit.It'swhenIreleaseitthatitlookslikearound
3mm.(Bytheway,Ihavenowchangedmyestimates
ontheoriginalreport.)
Yes,butwhenIsayflesh,Imeanfrenumfleshofcourse.
Therearealotoffibersinit,andprettymuchnonerves
andveryfewbloodvessels.Soit'sclosetopainlessand
bloodless.
>>AtmybeginninglevelIdontcutanyfleshatalljust
fibresandlittleskin.
Ithinkwearetalkingaboutreallymuchthesamething.
Wemightbegivingdifferentmeaningtotheword'flesh'
here.Idon'tmeanmuscle.Notthesameperhapsas
'fleisch',ifthatiscreatingconfusion.(?)
quote:

quote:
I'vebeendoingtooledtalavyaformaybe
threemonthsnow,andtherehasbeenalot
ofprogressingettingtheamountof
remainingfrenumsmallerandsmaller,but
notmuchgaininextensionuntilmaybea
fewmoremonthswhenitshouldallbegone

Yougetyourfrenumsmallerandsmallerbuttheextensions
didntgain?Whydoeslessfibresnotmeanmoreextension?
Whyallfibresmustbegone?

ThisisthesituationIhavefoundmyselfinatthispoint.
Itmayhavetodowiththelayoutofmyparticular
frenum.Letmemakeananalogy.
Supposedyouaretiedtotreewith
atwostringsthatare3mlong
bfivestringsthatare4mlong
ctenstringsthatare5mlong
dtwentystringsthatare6mlong
andyoutrytogetasfarasyoucanfromthetree.
Firstly,itisonlya.,thetwostringsthatare3mlongthat
matter.Thesearethe'mostlimiting'strings.Whenyou
cutthese,youextendonemeterandnowtheb.strings
matter.Whenyoucutthebstrings,youextendone
meter,andnowthec.stringsmatter.Soyoucutthec.
strings.
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Nowyouareleftwith
dtwentystringsthatare6mlong
andyouwon'tgetanyfurtheruntiltheyareallgone.
Now,youmayfindthatwhenyouhavegonethroughthe
c.stringsorearlier,youcangetfarenoughfromthe
treeandyoudon'tneedtosnipanymore.Ifyoudo,you
arefine.
Well,inthesituationIamin,Iwanttogetfurtherand
I'llprobablyhavetogetthroughmostorallofd.toget
further.AsfarasIcansee,onlythed.stringsareleft,
andtheyappeartoberoughlyequallylimiting,andthey
don'tappearatthesurfaceexceptatthebottomofmy
tongue.
(ThereasonIthinkthatthedstringsareroughlyequally
limitingisthatIthinkthattensiononthemisfairly
uniformwhenIpull).
Now,I'veexplainedthisina'discrete'way,whereasitis
continuousinpracticebutthesameprincipleapplies.In
practice,thestringsd.varyalittleinlength(butnot
much)andthereareafewthataremorelimitingthan
theothers.SoIamgainingalittleasIgothroughthed.
strings.
Oneotherthing,thea.stringscorrespondroughlytothe
frenalmembrane.Verylittleclipping,bigpayoff.Also
noticethattherewouldbeintensestrainingonthea.
stringsifyoupullawaywhentheyarethere,because
thereareonlytwoofthem.Likewise,whenthefrenal
membraneisthere,milkingthetonguecannotbedone
comfortablybecausethereistoomuchstrainontoofew
fibers.Itisonlywhentheloadgetsdistributedmorethat
milkingthetonguecanbedone.

quote:
Whataboutawoodcuttingtool?Theylookverysimilarto
thescrewdriveryoudescriped.Therearesomanydifferent
modelsoneshouldfit.Youcanalsobuyjustthehead(the
knife)ofthetool.
WhatImeanarethistools:
http://laden13.de/a30336.jpg

Thanksfortheidea!Yes,Ithinkyouhavesomething
interestinghere.Iamnotsurewhatsizethosetoolsare
Idon'thaveadefinitesenseofscale.
ButIthinkyouwantatoolwitharoundedtip.Whenwe
numberthemfromtheleft,theonlyoneswithaclose
are1,3and11.Moreroundisbetter,andIthinkaround
2.5mmwideatthetipisprobablybest.Thebestlooking
byfarseemstobe3.1and11seemtoowideand1is
hardlyroundedenough.I'dlookforsomethingevenmore
roundedthan3ifpossible,andIthinkarounda2.5mm
tip(number3looksnoticeablywiderbutIcan'ttellthe
scaleforsure).
Butthenyourexperiencemaybedifferent.Ifyoutryitit
willbeinterestingtohearwhatyoufind.
Youmentionedyoucangetthemwithoutthehandle.I'd
beinterestedtohearwhatyoufindifbest.Certainly,the
handlesshownseemtobetoobigforthepurpose.
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quote:
Perhapsmymouthisjusttosmall(ormyhandstobig)to
practice"tooledtalavyakriya".Icantreallyseeanything.
ButperhapswhenImusedtoititwillbeeasier.Iwillsee.

Ittakessomegettingusedto.Idon'tseemucheither,
butenough.AsIwassaying,lineofsightandangleare
quitetight.Feelisveryimportant,andittellsyoualot.
Theimportantthingistocutfrenum,andfrenumalone.
Andifyouranatomyislikemine,toworklowerdownat
theareaImentionedwhichseemstobeclearofveinsin
mycase.I'dbewaryofdoingtooledtalavyacloserto
thetop,becausetheretendtobeveinsoneitherside
onceyoucomeupfromtheverybottom.
Doyouhavethesamesituationontheverybottom,
whereyourlowerteethcouldcutyourfrenumifitwere
pulledoutandscrapedonthem?Noveinsoneitherside
ofthefrenumthere?

quote:
Thanksforthisreport

Gladtohelpandifyoutryit,itwillbeinterestingtosee
ifitworksforyou.Butobserveallcautionsandmake
suretolistentowhatYoganihassaidabove.Youaren't
underanypressure!
David

Editedbydavid_obsidianonOct28200509:35:34AM

david_obsidian

PostedSep292005:09:20:05AM

USA
2602Posts

HiOllie,
Ishouldsaysomethingaboutlineofsight.
WhatIdo(Iamrighthanded)is,withmylefthand,pull
mytongueoutstraight,thenalittleupwardsandtothe
left.Itiltmyheadbackalittle,thenIcanseethe
relevantpointsofmytongueinthemirror.
David
brauniver
Switzerland
39Posts

PostedSep302005:08:15:59AM

Thetreepictureisnice.Soitseasytounderstand.
quote:
Likewise,whenthefrenalmembraneisthere,milkingthe
tonguecannotbedonecomfortablybecausethereistoo
muchstrainontoofewfibers.Itisonlywhentheloadgets

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"tooledtalavyakriya"AYPSupportForums
distributedmorethatmilkingthetonguecanbedone.

YesthatiswhatIdiscovered.TheonlythingIcanfeel
whilemilkingareabouttwostringsinthefrontand
middle.

quote:
Butthenyourexperiencemaybedifferent.Ifyoutryitit
willbeinterestingtohearwhatyoufind.

ImshureIwilltrythistechniquebutthenextdaysor
weeksIwillstaywiththetraditionalmethodofsnipping.
Atthemomentitworksperfectly.
quote:
Youmentionedyoucangetthemwithoutthehandle.I'dbe
interestedtohearwhatyoufindifbest.Certainly,the
handlesshownseemtobetoobigforthepurpose.

IwillreportwhenIhavetried.
quote:
Doyouhavethesamesituationontheverybottom,where
yourlowerteethcouldcutyourfrenumifitwerepulledout
andscrapedonthem?Noveinsoneithersideofthefrenum
there?

Therearelittleveinsyes,butjustlittle.
Anotherthought:Coulditbethatyouhavecuttofast
andthatthatisthereasonwhyyouhavetogosodeep
intoflesh?
Ijustwonderwhytraditionalyissaidtocutonceaweek
ifyoucouldcuttwiceaday.
Yoganisaidthatthefibresrearrangeaftercuttingina
sensethereare"new"fibresonthesurfaceandsoyou
cancutthemeasily.
Perhapsifwecuttofastthefibresdoesntrearrangeand
sowehavetocutdeeper.
Totakethetreepicture:
Arethebstringsalwaysbstringsorcantheychange
intoastrings(orcstringsintobstrings.....)?
Oli

EditedbybrauniveronSep30200509:06:39AM

david_obsidian
USA
2602Posts

PostedSep302005:11:06:40AM

HiOli,
>>Anotherthought:Coulditbethatyouhavecuttofast
andthatthatisthereasonwhyyouhavetogosodeep
intoflesh?

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=497

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"tooledtalavyakriya"AYPSupportForums

>>Yoganisaidthatthefibresrearrangeaftercuttingin
asensethereare"new"fibresonthesurfaceandsoyou
cancutthemeasily.
First,Idon'treallycutsodeepintotheflesh.ButIknow
whatyoumean.I'mcuttinginaveryparticularway.I'm
cuttingwherethefrenumdoesnotnormallyprotrude
(andImakeitprotrudebypulling).Buttheactualdepth
Igoininanycuttingisnotsofar.MaybeIgoin1mm
ormaybe2mmit'shardtosay.
>>Perhapsifwecuttofastthefibresdoesntrearrange
andsowehavetocutdeeper.
Theanswertoyourquestionthoughis,yes,Ithinkthat
couldbepartofthestory,ormaybeeventhewhole
story.Ormaybeitisnotthattheydon'trearrangeatall
ifwecutquickly,butratherthattheyjustneedtimeto
rearrangeanyway.
Iactuallymentionedthatpossibilityinanearlierpost
(I'vejustunderlinedit):
quote:
AnotherthingI'veprettymuchsnippedawayallfrenum
thatisvisibleontheupperhalfofmytongue(whenIputit
'up')andI'vereachedalimitthere.Ihavetoworkonthe
bottomhalftogetanywherenow.IdoknowthatYoganidid
nothavetodothishewasabletoworkonthetopalone
inordertogethistonguetoanyleveloffreedomthathe
needed.[Itispossiblethatthisconditionistheresultofthe
speedatwhichIhavebeensnippingandthatifIwait
longenough,morefiberswillbeexposedatthetip.Idon't
knowaboutthis,andIdon'tneedto,sincetherearestill
fiberswellexposedatthebottomthatIcanworkon].

Bymyreading,Yoganicametothelaterstagesof
Kechariaftermorethanadecade.Somaybethatiswhy
therewasalwaystimeforfiberstocometothetop?
>>Totakethetreepicture:
>>Arethebstringsalwaysbstringsorcantheychange
intoastrings(orcstringsintobstrings.....)?
Myfirstthoughtwasnot,butnowIthinkI'llhavetothink
aboutthat.This,iftrue,wouldalsomeanthatsomeof
whatIsaidearlierisoversimplified.I'llgetbacktothat
when(andif)Ifigureitout...
Idoallofthisinthespiritofapioneer.Iamhappytobe
adatapointforlateryogis,eveniftheoutcomeshould
ultimatelybethatitdoesnotworkverywell.Butsofar,
itseemstobeworkingwellandIamhopeful....
Bytheway,ifyoudouseeventuallyawoodcuttingtool,
ifandwhenyoudotooledtalavya,oneoptiontothinkof
istogetahandleandsawoffthebottomofittomakeit
smallerandmoremaneageble.
Bestregards,
David

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Editedbydavid_obsidianonSep3020051:28:26PM

david_obsidian
USA
2602Posts

PostedSep302005:11:24:13AM

>>YesthatiswhatIdiscovered.TheonlythingIcan
feelwhilemilkingareabouttwostringsinthefrontand
middle.
OnethingIshouldmaybeclearup(forsomepeople,not
necessarilyOli)isthatthe'numberofstrings'inthetree
analogya..b..c..disofcourseonlyananalogy.In
practice,therearehundredsoftendonfibers,andalso
thereisnocleardivisionbetweena..b..c..d.
WhatOlifeelsaretwocordsoftendonfibers.Themany,
tinytendonfibersseemtoarrangeincords.Onetendon
fiberbyitselfwouldprobablybreakfairlyeasily.
D

brauniver

PostedOct022005:7:39:13PM

Switzerland
39Posts

quote:
Idoallofthisinthespiritofapioneer.Iamhappytobea
datapointforlateryogis,eveniftheoutcomeshould
ultimatelybethatitdoesnotworkverywell.Butsofar,it
seemstobeworkingwellandIamhopeful....

Formethewholediscussionwasveryhelpful.Imhappy
aboutsomepioneersotherwiseIneverwouldhavedone
that.Yourknowlegdeaboutthetongueanatomyisgreat
andtopracticekhechariwithoutguideisntsoniceI
think.
quote:
Bytheway,ifyoudouseeventuallyawoodcuttingtool,if
andwhenyoudotooledtalavya,oneoptiontothinkofisto
getahandleandsawoffthebottomofittomakeit
smallerandmoremaneageble.

Iwillnotbuythewholething...justthe"knife"andputit
onasmallbottom.
Ireallylikethekhecharipractice.Notonlybecauseofa
result,alsobecausetheprocessisvery"interesting"and
"funny".

david_obsidian
USA
2602Posts

PostedOct282005:09:32:23AM

Igotthisprivateemailfromsomeone,andIthoughtI
shouldsharemyresponsetoit.
>>Irereadyourtoolshedtalavya,andthinkthatitwill
workbetterformethanmyclipping.I'mgoingtodoit,
butneedtogetasharpeningstone.Whynotarazor?Too
flat?Toosharp?You'djusthavetohavegoodaim,which
Ido.
Toolshedtalavya!!Hahagoodone!
Idon'tthinkarazoristherighttoolatall.Yes,bothtoo
flatandtoosharp.

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"tooledtalavyakriya"AYPSupportForums

Ultimatelyyouarecuttingagrooveacrossyourfrenum,
afewmmdeep.Thinkaboutthat.Youneedtomakethe
groovedeeper(inwards)andwider(lefttoright).The
razorcouldworktostartcutting,butwherewoulditgo
then?Therazorhasoneflatedge.
Thesharpenedroundedscrewdriverisperfect.Itcancut
inalldirectionsatthetip.Itcanfitintothegrooveand
deepenitandwidenit.Youcancutdeeperbyscraping,
andextendtheedgesofthegroovetoo.Youcancut
deeperbypressinginward.Youcan'tdothatwiththe
razor.
Therearethreeotherreasonswhy'toosharp'isbad,
whichyoucanreadifyouareinterested,butignoreif
youarenot:Oneisthatyoucouldcutsomefrenumtoo
easilyanditcouldsipandmakeagashintoyourtongue.
Anotheristhatyouwanttheresistanceinordertofeel
thatyouarecuttingfrenum(whichishard),nottongue
(whichissoft).You'dprobablyfeellittleornoresistance
fromsomethingsurgicallysharpnotgoodforthis
practicewheretheresistanceisbeingusedtotellus
whereweare.Thefinalotherreasonisthattheless
sharpatoolis,themoreithurtsyouwhenitcutsyou.
Thishelpsusheretoo.(Youcouldmakeadeepcutinto
yourfingerwithascalpelandhardlyfeelituntilafter.
(Vampirebatsmakeuseofthisfact,andhaverazor
sharpteethfortheirpurpose...).)Thefrenumproperis
veryinsensitiveandcanbecuteasilywiththisnottoo
sharpinstrumentandstillnothurt.However,theendsof
thegrooveyoucutwillstarttoborderontongue.You
willwanttoextendtheendsofthegroovetogetas
muchfrenumasyoucan.Thatiswhenyouwanttobe
carefulbecauseyoucangetclosetorealtonguetissue.
Fortunatelyitstartstogetmoreandmoresensitiveas
yougetclosetothetonguetissue,andIhavefoundthat
Icantrimrightuptothelimit.Sothenottosharpness
ofthetoolhelpsinthiswayinmakingareadingof
whereyouarethepainwilldriveyouawayfrom
cuttingtongue.
Theroundedscrewdriver,notrazorsharp,isperfect.
It'snotsosharpthatyoudon'tfeelgoodresistencefrom
yourfrenum,hardenedbypulling.Atthesametime,itis
sharpenoughthatyoucouldcutyourfingerwithitifyou
scrapeditwithit.Youcanmakeitassharpasthe
hardeningstonewillallowyoutomakeit.Itwon'tbe
razorsharpthough,justduetothenatureofthestone
andthenonsurgicalmetalofthetool.
Imademyroundedscrewdriverfromtheredoneofthe
pairHUSKY20511.Google"HUSKY20511screwdriver"if
andwhenthislinkbreaks:
http://www.ehobbytools.com/index.ht...l&lang=enus
Ithinktheheadisabout2.5mmwide.I'llcheckit.
Youmayalsobeabletofindasuitablewoodcuttingtool,
likeOlispokeof.Myestimateofbestthicknessisnow
2.5mm,not3mmwhichImentionedearlieronthe
forum(whichIhavecorrected).
Hopethathelps,
D
Editedbydavid_obsidianonOct28200510:05:58AM

brauniver

PostedOct312005:5:11:22PM

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"tooledtalavyakriya"AYPSupportForums
Switzerland
39Posts

Idontwanttochangethetopic.Imjustnotsurewhere
toaddthiscomment.
ThereisonepointImnotinagreementwithyogani.I
thinkthefibrescangrowtogetheragainiftheyget
cuttedonce.Whyshouldtheynotgrowtogether?

david_obsidian

PostedOct312005:5:23:16PM

USA
2602Posts

quote:
Originallypostedbybrauniver
Idontwanttochangethetopic.Imjustnotsurewhereto
addthiscomment.

HelloOli,
youcanmakeyourowntopicanytime.Justhitthe'New
Topic'linkratherthanthe'ReplytoTopic'link.
quote:
Originallypostedbybrauniver
ThereisonepointImnotinagreementwithyogani.Ithink
thefibrescangrowtogetheragainiftheygetcuttedonce.
Whyshouldtheynotgrowtogether?

Ohno,he'srightAGAIN. Tendonfibersdon't
regrowwhentheyarebroken.Thisiswellknownin
medicine.Abrokentendonfiberisbrokenforever.
Beforetheageofmodernmedicine,ifpeoplehada
criticaltendoncompletelyseveredinalimb,theywould
loseuseofthelimbforever!Nowadaystheycando
operationstoreplaceitthem.
Youmightbeseeingsomethingduringthehealingofthe
woundthatgivesyoutheillusionthatthetendonfibers
arereattaching,buttheyarenot.Whatdoeshappenis
thatthecutfibersseemtodisappear(Ithinktheyjust
shrinkintothetendontissueandbecomeundetectable),
sothereisnoremainingappearanceofcutfibers.
Perhapsthisisproducingtheillusionthattheyare
rejoining.
D
Editedbydavid_obsidianonOct3120055:28:13PM

brauniver

PostedNov012005:09:48:44AM

Switzerland
39Posts

quote:
Ohno,he'srightAGAIN.

Okidoki!
brauniver
Switzerland
39Posts

PostedNov112005:5:28:57PM

Iobserveditthedaysandforsure...........yourare
right.

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