How Hard Is It To Attain Supramundane Jhana - Dhamma Wheel

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?
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Strive
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010
7:12 am
21 posts
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2

by Strive Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:29 am
P
o
I was
wandering how hard is it to attain the supramundane Jhana? Is it possible to attain the
s
supramundane
jhana without even knowing it, or knowing what they are with just pure faith
t
in
the Buddha? Like going to a retreat for the first time and following the instructions with all
your heart? I ask because I heard some people describe that they reached the stages of
supramundane Jhana but I don't think they even knew what jhana was. Or they where just
mistaken or something.
Last edited by Strive on Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Dhamma practised well brings happiness;
Truth is really the sweetest of tastes;
One living by wisdom they say lives best."--Bhikkhu Bodhi's Samyutta Nikaya, Sagathavagga verse
853
o
p
Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

by tiltbillings Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:57 am
P
o
s
Strive wrote:
t
tiltbillings
Posts: 21274
Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 9:25 am
I was wandering how hard is it to attain the supramundane Jhana? Is it possible to attain the
supramundane jhana without even knowing it, or what they are with just pure faith in the
Buddha? Like going to a retreat for the first time and following the instructions with all your
heart? I ask because I heard some people describe that they reached the stages of
supramundane Jhana but I don't think they even knew what jhana was. Or they where just
mistaken or something.
There are some experienced and knowledgeable jhana-practitioners here who may be able to
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6704&p=109862[26/8/2558 16:53:04]
How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel
address your questions, but thing I would recommend is working in and out of a retreat settings
with an experienced teacher who has worked with an experienced teacher. One hopefully will
be less likely to take a toddle down the garden path, an all to easy thing to happen by those
who guide themselves.
.
++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN
I, 38.
Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should
that mean that it is not real? HPatDH p.723
o
p
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15,
2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis,
MN

by Kenshou Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:08 am
P
o
I thought
"supramandane jhana" was, as per Theravadin abhidhamma, the state of the citta
s
when
attaining one of the 4 stages of awakening. Which in theory would make it as hard to
t
reach as, well, reaching one of those. Which most people would say is pretty hard. But I don't
know, have a thread instead: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4064
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:53 am
P
o
Thanks
for the replies guys!
s
t
Yeah because I heard some people say that they reached a stage where they didn't feel
anything in their body. Then after the retreat I thought to myself if it is even possible for
someone to reach that high of an attainment without even knowing what jhana was? Then I
read in the suttas that one of the Buddha's of the past chief disciple, (I forget his name but it
meant survivor) well he went to a foot of a tree and entered a state of cessation of perception
and feeling with no difficulty. The people around him thought that he was dead so they burned
him alive. Then later on they see him going for almsround and they where amazed of his
powers. That is how he got the name survivor. But still I don't know if he knew what the
supramundane jhana was before he went to meditate at the foot of the tree.
853
o
p

by mikenz66 Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:31 pm
P
HioStrive,
s
t
mikenz66
Posts: 12134
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009
7:37 am
Location: New Zealand
Dropping feelings in the body isn't necessarily supramundane, or even jhana. It just indicates a
high degree of focus on the meditation object.
Mike
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:19 am
P
o
s
mikenz66 wrote:
t
Hi Strive,
Dropping feelings in the body isn't necessarily supramundane, or even jhana. It just indicates a
high degree of focus on the meditation object.
Mike
Thanks Mikenz66,
Yeah that is a great point too. And I even heard cases where people's body parts could of been
sleeping or numb from sitting long periods or circulation. I guess I didn't want to doubt people
because I don't know how hard it is to attain jhana, Then I thought of that questions.
Last edited by Strive on Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

853
o
p
rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

by rowyourboat Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:17 pm
P
o
Strive,
it is possible to attain mundane and then, supramundane jhana. But it takes a diligent
s
practitioner
who has his life's goal as reaching stream entry or beyond. No 'part timers'
t
allowed.
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:45 pm
P
o
s
rowyourboat wrote:
t

Strive, it is possible to attain mundane and then, supramundane jhana. But it takes a diligent
practitioner who has his life's goal as reaching stream entry or beyond. No 'part timers' allowed.
Thanks for the reply rowyourboat!

I only been meditating for about a 1 and a half years and I'm very interested in jhana. I guess it
is harder to reach jhana than I thought, nevermind supramundane jhana.
853
o
p

by Goedert Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:06 am
P
o
Mundane
Jhanas are good and powerfull.
s
t
You can see the whole system working.
It is very easy to become enchanted with the new jhana world, so remember the three marks of
existence and try to see it.
Goedert
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18,
2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil
Supramundane jhanas can't be explained by words of mouth, just by silence and emptiness.
Tiltbilings gave to you the best advice here.
Take care.
o
p
rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
5:29 pm

by rowyourboat Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:30 pm
P
o might be a helpful and handy guide on the
This
s
t
subject:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html

with metta
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
o
p

by Ben Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:04 am
P
o
s
Strive wrote:
t
I ask because I heard some people describe that they reached the stages of supramundane Jhana
but I don't think they even knew what jhana was. Or they where just mistaken or something.
Ben
Site Admin
Posts: 17174

Joined: Wed Dec 31,
2008 12:49 am
Location:
War.loun.dig.er.ler
Contact:
C
o
n
t
a
c
t
B
e
n
Unfortunately, this is all too common.

Another danger is that, apparently, some of the jhanas can be very seductive, and some
teachers will warn you of them as it is very easy to get 'stuck' there, thinking it is the goal. For
this reason, some sub-traditions do not encourage practitioners to go beyond first or second
jhana (initially).
I also second Tilt's advice.
No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later.
All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance
in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) Buddhist Global Relief UNHCR
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:39 am
P
o
Awesome,
thanks for all the replies and
s
t
info,
I have no one at home or friends who I can speak and practice the dhamma with so I'm learning
so much from this site. I totally agree with you guys and Ben you bring up another good point
because I heard that it can be an ego trip with pride if you get to a high attainment when your
not ready. Just like you said, I think even one of Buddha's teacher thought that the jhana was
the final goal and that was why he left him.

853
o
p
rowyourboat
Posts: 1949
5:29 pm

by rowyourboat Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:51 am
P
o
There's
no jhana
s
for
t one with no discernment,
no
discernment
for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana
&
discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372

The Buddha often praised jhana. There are some pitfalls, but which type of meditation practice
doesn't? However there is much to be gained. As the verses above say, keeping in mind the
impermanent nature of the jhanas themselves can be a good way not to get attached to them,
but to nevertheless utilize their samadhi properties for progress in vipassana.
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
o
p
nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009
3:11 am

by nathan Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:52 pm
P
o
I don't
post much anymore, mostly because I have lost interest in debating points of view
s
ist hard to avoid this if you offer any. This and I am a long winded and not infrequently
and it
annoying old fart. But I thought I could offer a few relevant insights here that have arisen
throughout the years of practice.
Jhana can be problematic for meditators, particularly due to the ways that many people go
about practicing these days. Often people only have a half hour or hour or so per day or
occasional longer retreat times when they can practice. Naturally, despite the many common
warnings and disclaimers, when blissful or very pleasant episodes or experiences arise these
can tend to become objects of repeated reflection for some time afterward and as often this
can have the result that returning to those same kinds or similar kinds of experiences is all the
more difficult.
In the case of jhana the discourses and related commentaries offer very clear criteria for
determining whether or not one has or has not actually entered one or another jhana. A
careful study of the related literature, relevant discourses, commentaries and more recent
texts is a helpful, informative, beneficial and frequently invaluable preliminary study. It's
important to remember that the basic preliminary meditative criteria for jhana practice is
practicing towards developing mental qualities supportive of the absence of the hindrances
and so the subject of the hindrances is also an important study as an absence of the hindrances
is the first practical preliminary for progress in vipassana or insight practice as well.
In preparation for both practices the preparatory work is centered in recognizing or discerning
the differences in mental qualities, overcoming and abandoning unwholesome and harmful
mental qualities and cultivating and developing appropriate mental qualities. It is best to
continue on with this foundational work for as long as necessary as this foundation of
overcoming the hindrances is going to serve as the platform for everything that follows and
one will need to return to this focus again and again on any and every occasion that calls for
doing so in the future course of meditative practice.
The jhanas eventually have occasions to occur for most of those long term and/or energetic
and committed practitioners who have put in the necessary preparatory time and effort. The
jhanas generally live up to the descriptions given in the texts even if these do not appear quite
as one may have imagined them to be when one had no such experience. One will note that
the mental qualities that are described in the discourses as necessary components of these
states are present and that these are more or less all that is presenting to consciousness at
these times. One will also note that development of jhana is progressively subtle and
progressively accessible and serves as the natural compliment to vipassana practices. Most
commonly jhana arises spontaneously and unexpectedly for people in the course of vipassana
practice unless someone has chosen to make tranquility practice their primary aim and is
willing to devote considerably more time and effort to developing the related mental qualities.
I recommend focusing on the removal of the hindrances and then turning to practicing
satipatthana or vipassana, allowing the jhanas to arise more naturally in the course of these
practices when the mental qualities arising at opportune moments are suitable.
The jhanas, when briefly encountered, can become problematic at times for meditators who do
not have the time, energy or motivation for many hours of daily meditation for years on end.
For those who meditate for short periods of time and/or inconsistently even pleasant, peaceful
and blissful mental qualities and like experiences that fall short of jhana can be problematic.
Among the reasons for these difficulties can be a general lack of experience with mental
qualities, less experience with overcoming the hindrances, less familiarity with long periods of
uneventful meditation practice, less skillfulness with the practices and a lack of understanding
of how much commitment and effort is really generally necessary for most people to make
slow but steady long term progress with meditative practices.
The common result of a relative shortfall of experience is that when very pleasant kinds of
mental qualities and even more so if and when jhana arises these moments can be difficult to
prolong or give rise to again because due to subsequent excitement, agitation, anxiety and so
on mental qualities opposed to the recurrence of the appropriate qualities inhibits the
necessary calm that naturally serves as the basis for the rearising and continued development
of pleasant, blissful, one pointed and other jhana supportive mental qualities. This is how
pleasant mental qualities and experiences of jhana can become obstacles for further progress
for meditators. Due to such fixations, anxieties and agitations and so on about revisiting
various pleasant qualities the meditator may loose sight of the necessary preliminary goals of
overcoming the hindrances, calming the mind and nurturing wholesome and beneficial mental
qualities.
Supermundane jhana, although perhaps somewhat of an unnecessary classification or label, is,
imho, most likely a suitable description for what experience of jhana can be more like after
one has completed the full course of vipassana to the extent that progressive insight have
given rise to realization and understanding and one has become a 'stream enterer' and so on.
When one has become sufficiently familiar with the five aggregates, the three characteristics,
the vipassana nanas and dependent origination that one can observe the overcoming of at least
the first three fetters then one is also in a position to examine the mental qualities of jhana
with a similar absence of recursive thought, misconception and with the more consistent
presence of discernment.
The long term result of quite extensive exposure to jhana and the application of continued
discernment is that jhana is not seen as the sort of delightful and attractive sort of experience
that it was when one first became acquainted with these same mental qualities. With longer
term familiarity and the clarity that insight, discernment, realization and understanding bring
to bear on jhana, jhana is simply more dukkha, composed of the same dependently originating
conditionality as any and all other cognizable forms, sensations, feelings, thoughts and mental
qualities. True, jhana is clearly valuable as a skillful means for burning up the hindrances,
establishing calm and equanimity for satipatthana and vipassana and for developing the path
to nibbana but jhana for the sake of jhana, even 'so called' supramundane jhana is not the kind
of trap it is for those skilled in jhana and vipassana that it can be for meditators with far less
extensive and long term experience. Supramundane jhana is supportive of very refined
satipatthana, vipassana and other practices, for examination of the asavas and development of
the higher paths.
If supramundane jhana or even mundane jhana is ones objective then the best course of action
is to undertake the related studies, practice towards overcoming the hindrances and
committing to long term vipassana. Jhana and with stream entry supramundane jhana will be
the result of undertaking this work with whatever time, effort and commitment proves
necessary.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of
thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti
115}
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:48 am
P
o
Thanks
for the reply friend,
s
t
That is some good info and I agree with you especially on practicing for removal of atleast the
some of the hindrances first, mainly I think being accomplished in the 5 precepts. I'm mainly
interested in jhana because I heard that it helps suppress the hindrances and leads to the
destruction of the taints. Plus, from what I read in the Maggasamyutta is that from the the
first jhana up to the fourth jhana (mundane jhana) it is right concentration, so I'm also trying
to practice that towards the noble eightfold path. I don't really care for a pleasant abiding just
yet, I do care for the complete destruction of suffering though.

853
o
p

by Reductor Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:44 pm
P
o
s
Strive wrote:
t
Reductor
Posts: 1330
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009
6:52 am
Location: Alberta,
Canada
I'm mainly interested in jhana because I heard that it helps suppress the hindrances and leads to
the destruction of the taints.
I've found it very helpful to think the opposite: suppression of the hindrances support jhana,
and jhana supports the destruction of the taints.
So when you meditate focus on establishing mindfulness in your breath, posture, etc. Then,
when the mind seems distracted into a hindrance, that is the time to contemplate in such a
way that the hindrance passes away. Once done you then return your attention to your object.
After enough practice you'll find that mindfulness comes much easier and you are more easily
able to dispel the hindrances. When this is the case you will find that directing your mind into
jhana is not so hard. But, in the beginning, cultivate patience and contentment with sitting
mindfully. If you can do that your more than half way there.
Michael
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org
The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.
And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72
o
p

by IanAnd Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:22 pm
P
o
s
thereductor wrote:
t
I've found it very helpful to think the opposite: suppression of the hindrances support jhana, and
jhana supports the destruction of the taints.
IanAnd
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Oct 19,
2009 5:19 am
Location: the deserts of
Arizona
So when you meditate focus on establishing mindfulness in your breath, posture, etc. Then,
when the mind seems distracted into a hindrance, that is the time to contemplate in such a way
that the hindrance passes away. Once done you then return your attention to your object.
After enough practice you'll find that mindfulness comes much easier and you are more
easily able to dispel the hindrances. When this is the case you will find that directing your
mind into jhana is not so hard. But, in the beginning, cultivate patience and contentment
with sitting mindfully. If you can do that your more than half way there.
Good overall advice, thereductor.

Well worth paying attention to and cultivating.
Also, Nathan's post has many good insights (if you can wade through his verboseness
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
o
p

by Reductor Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:37 pm
P
o
s
IanAnd wrote:
t
Good overall advice, thereductor.

Reductor
Posts: 1330
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009
6:52 am
Location: Alberta,
Canada
Michael
https://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org
The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72
o
p
Strive
Posts: 50
7:12 am

by Strive Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:31 pm
P
o
Thanks
for the advice thereductor, I
s
t
will keep that in mind.

853
o
p
villkorkarma
Posts: 506
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010
9:43 pm

by villkorkarma Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:46 pm
P
o
What
is this? : . Supramundane jhana is supportive of very refined satipatthana, vipassana
s
other
practices, for examination of the asavas and development of the higher paths.
t
and
vipassana i know but what is satipatthana?

one suffer because one hasnt existed long : )
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How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Thanks for the reply rowyourboat!

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

You can see the whole system working.

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Unfortunately, this is all too common.

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

Good overall advice, thereductor.

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

Good overall advice, thereductor.

How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana? - Dhamma Wheel

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

will keep that in mind.

"Faith is here a man's best treasure;

Re: How hard is it to attain supramundane Jhana?

vipassana i know but what is satipatthana?

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