Dharma Wheel - View Topic - Stress - in Translations From Pali & Sanskrit

31/8/2558
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"stress"intranslationsfromPali&Sanskrit
byDGAFriMar04,20112:22pm
SometimeagoIreadThanissaroBikkhu'sbook_TheWingstoAwakening,_where,ifIremember
correctly,hetranslatedthePaliworddukkhaas"stress"ratherthanthemoreconventionalterms
"suffering"or"sorrow"or"dissatisfaction."Anyoneknowifthisisisolated,orifothertranslators
particularlyinMahayanausesimilardiction?(Dharmaasstressrelieflanguage,Imean.)
Fastandbulbous.Tightalso.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20283
DGA
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=3461&p=54999#p54999
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Re:"stress"intranslationsfromPali&Sanskrit
byretrofuturistSatMar05,20115:23am
GreetingsJikan,
I'dbecarefulaspositingvenerableThanissaro'stranslationofdukkhaasstressasimplyingthat
Dharmaisfor"stressrelief"intheconventionaluseofthisphrase.
Tocomparetothetermsyou'veused...suffering,sorrowanddissatisfactionareallthestress/tension
betweenwhatiswantedversuswhatis.
Maitri,
Retro.
Liveinconcord,withmutualappreciation,withoutdisputing,blendinglikemilkandwater,viewing
eachotherwithkindlyeyes
DhammaWheel(Theravadaforum)*HereComesTrouble
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byDGASunMar06,20113:16am
HiRetrofuturist,
Thanksforthewordofcaution.
ItseemstomethatThanissaroBikkhuchooseshiswordswithgreatcare.Hisconcernforaccuracy
andhisrespectfortheCanonareobviousandcommendable.Whenheexplicitlyusesthewordstress
initscontemporarymeaningasatranslationfordukkha,he'satleastimplyingthatdhammapractice
asheunderstandsitisaformofstressrelief.He'sclearlydoingitonpurpose.
I'mnotsayingthatThanissaroBikkhuunderstandsdhammapractice*only*or*merely*asstress
relief,orthathe'sreducingdhammapracticetoaformofcorporatetrainingorwhatever,merelythat
he'sinvokingacertaindiscourseinhistranslationsforwhateverreasonhemayhave.I'mnot
interestedinmakingavaluejudgmentonthisdecision.Thatwouldbeboring,yes?
I'msimplyaskingifthisissomethingthatisspecifictoThanissaroBikkhu'stranslations,orifitcan
befoundelsewhere.
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byKen1969TueMar08,20119:28am
WalpolaRahulawritesinWhattheBuddhaTaught:
TheFirstNobleTruthisgenerallytranslatedbyalmostallscholarsas'TheNobleTruthofSuffering',
anditisinterpretedtomeanthatlife,accordingtoBuddhismisnothingbutsufferingandpain.Both
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translationandinterpreationarehighlyunsatisfactoryandmisleading.Itisbecauseofthislimited,
freeandeasytranslation,anditssuperficialinterpretation,thatmanypeoplehavebeenmisledinto
regardingBuddhismaspessimistic.
(Rahulaeventuallygoesontosay:)
ItisadmittedthatthetermdukkhaintheFirstNobleTruthcontains,quiteobviously,theordinary
meaningof'suffering',butinadditionitalsoincludesdeeperideassuchas'imperfection',
'impermanence','emptiness',insubstantiality'.Itisdifficultthereforetofindonewordtoembracethe
wholeconceptionofthetermdukkhaastheFirstNobleTruth,andsoitisbettertoleaveit
untranslated,thantogiveaninadeqateandwrongideaofitbyconvenientlytranslatingitas'suffering'
or'pain'.
TheBuddhadoesnotdenyhappinessinlifewhenhesaysthereissuffering...
Alltyposaremine,andIhopethathelped!
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bymeindzaiTueMar08,20111:38pm
ThanissaroBhikkhuhascitedthreereasonsforthistranslation.ThiscomesfromseveraltalksthatI
remembersoIcannotgiveanyreference,butI'mprettysuretheywerefromaudiodharma.
1)Itishardertoromanticize.i.e.peoplewillromanticizesufferingasifitinitselfissomethingnoble.
Asin"Isufferformyart"orwhathaveyou.Buthesaysyouwillneverhearanybodyreferto"my
noblestress."
2)dukkhaapplieseventoveryrefinedstatesofconcentration,includingthehigherjhanas/dyanas.
Evenwhentherearehugeamountsofraptureandjoy,thereisstilldukkha.Theword"suffering"
doesn'treallyfithere,soagaintheword"stress"ismoreappropriate.
3)Icannotrememberthethird.IwashopingthatbythetimeIgothereIwouldifIkepttyping.
Maybethere'sonlytwo.Ifanybodyrememberspleasepost.
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IwouldsaythatBuddhismisstressrelief.It'sjustthatit'sacompleteandtotalreliefofanyandall
threadsofstress.Notsomethingyougetsittinginahottub.(ThoughIsupposeenlightenmentcan
happenanywhere).
EDIT:Ifoundthethirdreasonfromanotherpostofmineononeofdhammapal'syahoogroups.
IronicallyonthatpostIcouldn'tremember#1.
Ifyouaskalotofpeopleifyouaresuffering,theywillmanytimessay"no."Insuchacasetheywill
notreallybeinterestedinanymeansofendingsuffering.Butifyouaskthemiftheyhavestress.
"Yes,ofcourse!"
M
"TheDharmaishuge."Rael
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byDGATueMar08,20113:21pm
Thanks,M.That'sexactlytheinformationIneeded.
incidentally,ify'allhaven'tread_TheWingstoAwakening,_youshouldconsiderdoingso.Ifoundit
helpful.
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byAemiliusWedMar09,20113:11pm
IhavereadtheWingstoAwakeningperiodically,andIhavegonebacktoitseveraltimes.Ilikehis
style.Idon'tthinkallhisinventionsarereallyhelpfulforbetterunderstanding,attimesIkeep
rememberingthattheolderPalitextSocietyversionsweremorereadable.
RecentlyItriedtofindtheGotamiSuttawhereBuddhateachesabouthowtorecognizeauthentic
teachingsofDharma,thetranslationofThanissaroBhikkhuisavailableforfree,butthemainidea
doesn'tcomeacrossclearly,ornotatall.
AtpresentIcan'tcheckhowitisputinthePaliTextSocietyversion,butI'msureitismoreclearand
themainpointisplainevident.Intheoldertranslationthereis"teachingofdharma"(asfarasI
rememberit),butThanissarohas"qualities"!?Whyonearth!?Isitanaccident!?Orisheconfusing
theissue?!
InthedescriptionofthementionedsuttaAccesstoInsightsayscorrectlythatitisaboutthecriteria
howtorecognizeauthenticteachingsofDharma.Buthowdotheyknowit?!Throughsomeolder
catalogmaybe?
GotamiSuttaAN8.53http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/#an8
svaha
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byvinodhSunApr24,20114:45am
MostIndianLanguagesretaintheSanskrit"Duhkha"intheirlanguage.
So,itseasyforaanIndiantocomprehendtheentirespectrumofmeaningsthattheword"duhkha"
mayimply.
OneoftheadvantagesofbeingIndian
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V
http://www.virtualvinodh.com
yodharmapayati,sabuddhapayati
OnewhoseestheDharma,seestheBuddha
listambastra
napudgalonacaskandhbuddhojnamansravam
sadntivibhvitvgacchmiaraahyaham
Neitherapersonnortheaggregates,theBuddha,isknowledgefreefrom[evil]outflows
Clearlyperceiving[him]tobeeternallyserene,Igoforrefuge[inhim]
saddharmalakvatrastra
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byAndersSunApr24,20116:57am
Aemiliuswrote:AtpresentIcan'tcheckhowitisputinthePaliTextSocietyversion,but
I'msureitismoreclearandthemainpointisplainevident.Intheoldertranslationthere
is"teachingofdharma"(asfarasIrememberit),butThanissarohas"qualities"!?Why
onearth!?Isitanaccident!?Orisheconfusingtheissue?!
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'Dhamma'canbetranslatedasteaching,phenomena,quality,lawandprobablyahostofother
meaningsIamnotthinkingofrightnow.It'susuallydecidedbycontext.
Iguessyoucouldreaditeitherwayhere.Probablyagoodcaseforleavingituntranslated.
"Evenifmybodyshouldbeburnttodeathinthefiresofhell
Iwouldendureitformyriadlifetimes
Asyourcompanioninpractice"
GandavyuhaSutra
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byHuifengSunSep04,20112:35am
Jikanwrote:SometimeagoIreadThanissaroBikkhu'sbook_TheWingstoAwakening,_
where,ifIremembercorrectly,hetranslatedthePaliworddukkhaas"stress"ratherthan
themoreconventionalterms"suffering"or"sorrow"or"dissatisfaction."Anyoneknowif
thisisisolated,orifothertranslatorsparticularlyinMahayanausesimilardiction?
(Dharmaasstressrelieflanguage,Imean.)
VenThanissaroistheonlytranslatorIknowofwhousesthisterm"stress"totranslatedukkha(/
duhkha).
AndwhileI'mhere,Iusetwotypesofterms:suffering/painforduhkhawhenitisinthesukha/
duhkhaparadigmanddissatisfactionwhenitisintermsofthearyasatya,orthe"dissatisfactionas
suffering"duhkhaduhkha,"dissatisfactionaschange"viparinamaduhkhaand"dissatisfactionas
beingconditioned"samskaraduhkhasystem.Thepointisclearestwithtranslatingduhkhaduhkha.
~~Huifeng
MyPrajcraBlog
BuddhistStudiesatFoGuangUniversity,Taiwan
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bymikenz66SunSep04,20119:27am
Ican'taddmuchtotheexcellentdiscussionhere,butIwillsaythatthereviewbyAndrewOlendskiof
BhikkhuBodhi'sexcellentcollection"IntheBuddha'sWords"hassomecommentsontheuseof
languageinEnglishtranslationsofthePali.Itcanbereadhere:
http://www.wisdompubs.org/pages/display...n=&image=1
Hediscussesthreemajorcollections:
Thefirstconsists
ofthePaliTextSocietytranslations
whichhavebeengeneratedoverthepast
centurybysomeofBuddhismsforemost
scholars,includingT.W.RhysDavids
andhiswifeCarolineRhysDavids,I.B.
Horner,F.L.Woodward,andE.M.Hare.
Thereis,however,muchdiversityintheir
renderingoftechnicalvocabulary(e.g.,
areasavasDeadlyFloods,cankers,Drugs
orPoisons,intoxicants,influxes,oreffluents?),
andanantiquatedfeeltosomeof
theEnglishusage(e.g.,Yea,asthou
saystthenwastthou,Bhaggava!).There
isalsosomequestionaboutwhetherthe
academicobjectivityofabrilliant,
Christian,nonmeditatinglinguististhe
bestmodeinwhichtoattempttorender
materialofsuchsubtleinteriorityasthe
Buddhasdhamma.
ThanissaroBhikkhuisgraduallyworking
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towardsanalternativeEnglishtranslation
ofthePaliCanon,andeachnewtext
hetranslatesispublishedforfreedistribution
andplacedontheInternet(accesstoinsight.
org)forfreedownloading.Because
oftheirpreferenceforworkingincyberspace,
theyoungergenerationofdhamma
enthusiastsiswidelyusingthisversionof
theTipitaka.Butthosemorefamiliarwith
thevernacularthatiscurrentindhamma
circlesstrugglewithsomeofhisidiosyncratic
wordchoices(e.g.,stressfor
dukkha,frameofreferenceforsatipatthana,
Unbindingfornibbana).Itsnot
tosaythatthesearenotexcellentchoices
onceoneunderstandsthereasoning,but
unlessoruntilhiscanonbecomesmore
widelyadopted,manyreaderswilltendto
stubtheirtoesuponsomeoftheseterms.
Thanissaroclearlyknowshistradition
well,andaddstohisworktheimportant
dimensionofexperientialdepth.
ThethirdEnglishtranslationofthePali
Canonconsistslargely,butnotexclusively,
ofthetextsputoutbyWisdomPublications
inthelastdecadeorso.Walshes
LongDiscourses,NanamolisMiddle
LengthDiscourses,andBhikkhuBodhis
ConnectedDiscoursesandNumerical
Discourses,alongwithsomefreelance
translationsfromthefifthNikaya,or
collection,havecometoformacoherent
andreasonablyconsistentbodyofwork
ofconsiderableusefulnesstothemodern
reader....
Ithoughtthebitinredwasahoot!
Mike
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byJosefFriOct21,20116:56pm
StressistheabsoluteworsttranslationofdukkhaIhaveeverseen.
Itcompletelyneutersthemeaning.
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byAemiliusThuNov10,201111:54am
IhavehighregardfortheworkofThanissaroBhikkhu,yetIthinkthereareworsethingsthanthe
stressinhistranslations.Forexamplehehasthewordfermentationasatranslationofasavaorklesha!
YoucanfinditinNimittasutta:Themes.Howdoesthatwordsoundinyourear?Theendingof
fermentations??
svaha
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byMalcolmThuNov10,20113:01pm
Aemiliuswrote:Howdoesthatwordsoundinyourear?
Stupid.Effluentisbetter.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
TheverymeaningoftheTibetantermDzogchen,"GreatPerfection,"referstothetrueprimordial
stateofeveryindividualandnottoanytranscendentreality.
ChogyalNamkhaiNorbu
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bycatmoonThuNov10,20113:16pm
IthinkinattemptingtochoosetermsaWesternaudiencecanconnectwith,Thanissarobhikkuwenta
littletoofar.I'mnolinguist,butI'velistenedtoafewtalksonDukkha,andIthinkevenarelative
neophytecanrecognizethatalthoughtheterm"stress"ispointedlyaccurateformanyWesterners,itis
muchtoonarrowatermtoencompassthefullscopeofdukkha.Maybehisintentionwastoprovide
anotherwayoftranslatingit,soastobroadenthemeaningforthosewhoreadwidely,ratherthan
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provideasingledefinitivetranslation.
Andasideissue:isitdhukkaordukkha?Iseebothspellingsalloverthenet.Moredukkhahm?
SergeantSchultzkneweverythingtherewastoknow.
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byJnanaThuNov10,20115:23pm
catmoonwrote:Andasideissue:isitdhukkaordukkha?Iseebothspellingsalloverthe
net.
Pli:dukkha
Sanskrit:dukha
LasteditedbyJnanaonThuNov10,20115:31pm,edited3timesintotal.
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bydeepbluehumThuNov10,20115:27pm
Sometimesithelpstobreakoutofthetranslationhelltounderstandwhatthepointis.Dukkhameans
youcan'tsatisfyyourdesires.
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byJnanaThuNov10,20115:31pm
deepbluehumwrote:Sometimesithelpstobreakoutofthetranslationhelltounderstand
whatthepointis.Dukkhameansyoucan'tsatisfyyourdesires.
Inthecontextofthefirstnobletruth,thetermencompassesthefollowing:
Theunsatisfactorinessofpain(dukkhadukkhat):
birth(jti)
aging(jar)
illness(bydhi)
death(maraa)
sorrow(soka)
lamentation(parideva)
pain(dukkha)
unhappiness(domanassa)
despair(upys)
Theunsatisfactorinessofchange(viparimadukkhat):
associationwithwhatisunpleasant(appiyehisampayogo)
separationfromwhatispleasant(piyehivippayogo)
notgettingwhatiswanted(yampicchanalabhati)
Theunsatisfactorinessoffabrications(sakhradukkhat):
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thefiveclingingaggregates(pacupdnakkhandh)
TheAbhidharmasamuccayasubdividestheaboveabitdifferentlyasfollows:
Theunsatisfactorinessofpain(dukhadukhat):
birth(jti)
oldage(jar)
sickness(vydhi)
death(maraa)
associationwithwhatisunpleasant(apriyasamprayoga)
Theunsatisfactorinessofchange(viparimadukhat):
separationfromwhatispleasant(priyaviprayoga)
notgettingwhatiswanted(yadapcchhannalabhate)
Theunsatisfactorinessoffabrications(saskradukhat):
thefiveclingingaggregates(pachopdnaskandha)
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byAemiliusFriNov11,201111:28am
AnotherThanissarowordis"theme"fornimitta,normallytranslatedas"sign".Ithink"theme"is
misleading,itisnothelpfulforbetterunderstanding.Youropinion?
svaha
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bySpinyNormanFriNov11,201111:47am
Jikanwrote:SometimeagoIreadThanissaroBikkhu'sbook_TheWingstoAwakening,_
where,ifIremembercorrectly,hetranslatedthePaliworddukkhaas"stress"ratherthan
themoreconventionalterms"suffering"or"sorrow"or"dissatisfaction."
Idon'tthink"stress"isaparticularlygoodtranslationofdukkha,andIMO"unsatisfactoriness"is
better.Thoughperhapsit'sbestnottoattempttouseasinglewordtocapturethemeaning.
CP
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