By abdi on 2 December, 2013 - 11:37 pm

1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...

Hi,
Whywhenwetrygotopremixmodefromleanleanmode,Itisnotdone?
Whywehaven'tanyalarmtodescribewhathappenforsystemwhenwetrygotopremixmodeandItisnot
done?
ItisverybadforGEgasturbinecompany.
MysystemaftertheHGPdoesn'tgotopremixmode.

By CSA
on 3 December, 2013 - 10:07 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
abdi,
YouverysimplyhaveNOTprovidedenoughinformationforustobeofanyhelptoyouatall.
WecanonlypresumethattheturbinehadDLNIcombustors,isfiringongasfuel,andthataHGPIwasjust
completed.
Wedon'tknowiftheunithasInletBleedHeat,iftheIBHsystemwasactiveandworkingproperly,whatload
youweretryingtotransferfromLeanLeanintoPremixat,whatyoudidtotrytoattemptanothertransfer,and
whattroubleshootingyouhavedone.
InordertotransferfromLeanLeantoPremix,it'snecessaryfortheflameinthePrimaryCombustionZoneto
beextinguished(that'soneoftheconditions,anyway).DoestheflameinthePrimaryCombustionZonegoout
forafewsecondsduringtheLeanLeantoPremixTransfer?Ifnot,thenthetransferwon'tbesuccessful.
WhatotherProcessAlarmsareactiveatthetimeyouaretryingtotransitionfromLeanLeantoPremixmode?
WhatProcessAlarmsareannunciatedduringandafterthefailedtransferattempt?
WhatdoyoudototryanothertransferfromLeanLeantoPremixandwhathappens?
Wejustdon'thaveenoughinformationtobeofanyhelp.DoestheunithaveaTransferGasFuelValve,orisit
"Transferless"?Areyoucertainthecalibration/operationoftheGasFuelSplitterValveiscorrect?Areyou
suretheoperationoftheIBHControlValveiscorrect(ifsoequipped)?
WhatloaddoestheunitnormallytransferfromLeanLeantoPremixat?Whatisthecombustionreference
temperatureatthatloadbeforetheoutage,andnowaftertheoutage?
It'snotjustbadfortheGECompanyit'sbadfortheGEturbine!DidGEperformtheHGPI?Ifso,whatare
theydoingtotrytohelpresolvetheproblem?IfGEdidn'tdotheoutage,whatisthecompanythatdidthe
outagedoingtotrytohelpresolvetheproblem?
IfyoursystemwentintoPremixModebeforetheoutage,then,unlesstherehavebeenMAJORchangestothe
hardwareandsoftwareitshouldgointoPremixmodeaftertheoutage.Areyousureallmanualvalvesinthe
gasfuelpipingandpurgesystemsareintheirproperpositions?Istheairsupplytoallairoperatedvalves
(purgevalves,usually)turnedon?
Whathaveyoudonetotrytotroubleshoottheproblem?Whatweretheresults?

By abdi on 4 December, 2013 - 9:49 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Hi,
Aftercheckallofsignaltoactivethepremixunsuccessful.Ifindtheprimaryzonedetectedtheflame.Why?

By CSA
on 4 December, 2013 - 6:49 pm
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
abdi,
TheusualreasonisbecausethefueltotheprimarycombustionzonewasNOTcompletelyshutoff.This
typicallyhappenswhentheLVDTcalibrationoftheGasFuelSplitterValveisnotcorrect,orthevalvehas
beenrefurbishedandthestrokeisnotsetcorrectly,oracombinationofthetwo.
It'shardtoextinguishtheprimaryflameiffuelisstillflowingintotheprimarycombustionzone.
IftheGasFuelSplitterValvewaseitherrefurbished,orsomeone/somecompanyperformedamechanical
adjustment,orsomeoneattemptedtocalibratetheLVDTswithoutactuallyphysicallyobservingand
measuringtheactualvalvestempositionduringyourHGPIthisisthelikelycause(s).
Anotherpossiblecausecouldbeanincorrectlysetnullbiasvaluefortheservovalveoutput,usuallyoccurring
whensomeoneisattemptingtocalibrateLVDTswhentheyaren'tsureoftheprocess.
Lastly,iftheservovalvewasreplaced,didanyoneverifythepolarityoftheservocurrentsbeingappliedtothe
servovalvecoils?VERYimportant,andfrequentlyoverlooked.
Pleasewritebacktoletusknowwhatyoufind!

By abdi on 5 December, 2013 - 10:25 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
Theflameinprimaryzoneremoveduringtransferring,butwhenGCV1(aftertheflameremoveinprimary
zone)gotoopeningandGCV2gotoclosethetransferringunsuccessfulandtheprimaryzonedetectflame.
Why?
thanksalot.

By CSA
abdi,

on 5 December, 2013 - 3:15 pm

It'sreallynotpossibletosayforsurewithoutaLOTmoreinformation.
Myfirstinclinationwouldbethat,ifflameisbeingextinguished,thensomethingishappeningtocausethe
ignitors(sparkplugs)toreignitetheflameintheprimarycombustionzone.Again,youhaven'ttolduswhat
ProcessAlarmsarebeingannunciatedwhentheSpeedtronicistryingtotransfertoPremix,andthatcouldhelp
ushelpyouunderstandwhatisorisn'thappening.
Anotherpossibilitycouldbethatthereissomethingamisswiththereassemblyofthecombustionhardware,or
thatsomemanualvalvesarenotinthecorrectposition.
Ifthereisahighexhausttemperaturespreadbeforeorduringthetransferthatcouldbetheproblemor
contributingtotheproblem.

Ifitwerepossibleforustobeabletosaywithanycertaintywhattheproblematyoursiteisbeingcausedby
withtheinformationyouhaveprovidedsomeonewouldhavedoneso.Inmyexperience,themajorityofthese
failurestotransferaftermaintenanceoutagesaretheresultofoneoftwothings:eitheraproblemwiththe
combustionsystemhardwareorthereassemblyofthehardware(andtheMechanicalDept.neverbelievesit's
amechanicalorreassemblyissue,butitusuallyturnsouttobethereason),orit'sanLVDT"calibration"
issue.
Ifthegasvalveswererefurbishedorreplaced(and,again,youhaven'ttoldusiftheywereorweren't),that
couldalsobeaproblem.ButtheproblemisNOTlikelyaSpeedtroniccontrolproblem.
Finally,everyhourofoperationinExtendedLeanLeanmodeisequivalenttoTENhoursofPremixoperation.
DLNIcombustorsarenotintendednordesignedtobeoperatedinExtendedLeanLeanformorethanafew
hoursduringtroubleshootingorinanemergency.ProlongedoperationinExtendedLeanLeanisextremely
hardoncombustionliners.
Bestofluckwithyourproblem.Pleasewritebacktoletusknowwhatyoufindwhenyouresolvetheproblem!

By abdi on 6 December, 2013 - 2:58 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
flameisbeingextinguished,thenflamedetectioninprimarycombustionzoneishappening,duringtheGCV1
goingtoopenandGCV2GOINGTOCLOSING.
ExtendedleanleanmodehighemissionAlarmarebeingannunciatedwhentheSpeedtronicistryingtotransfer
toPremix,
thereisahighexhausttemperaturespreadduringthetransferbutlessthanallowablespreadforexample
allowablespreadis180andspread#1,2,3AREaround100.

By CSA
abdi,

on 6 December, 2013 - 3:07 pm

ThespreadsseemveryhighforamachinejustcomingoffaHGPI.
Sinceyouseemconvincedthereissomerelationtotheopening/closingofthetwogascontrolvalves,haveyou
comparedtheratesofopening/closingbeforetheoutagetothoseaftertheoutage?
Fortheopening/closingratestohavechanged,undernormaloutageconditions,itwouldbenecessaryfor
someonetohavechangedtheservogain(s)deliberately,orthevalveactuatorsand/ortheservovalvesto
somethingotherthanoriginalequipment.Dirtyorincorrectservoscouldalsobetheculprit.Ascouldincorrect
wiringreterminationsandbadLVDT"calibration(s)."
Inordertoextinguishtheflameintheprimarycombustionzoneit'snecessarytoshutoffthefuelflowtothe
primaryfuelnozzlesandredirectallthefuelflowtothesecondarycombustionzone.Then,onceflamehas
beenextinguishedforafewsecondsfuelisreadmittedbackintotheprimaryfuelnozzlesatthesametimefuel
flowtothesecondarycombustionzoneisreduced.WithoutbeingabletoseetheP&IDs(pipingschematics)
foryourturbineit'sdifficulttosaywhatthetwoGCVscontrolonyourmachine.
ButifitworkedbeforetheHGPIitshouldworkaftertheHGPIwithoutanymanualintervention.So,you
mustreviewalltheworkwhichwasdonetotrytodeterminewhatmighthavechangedwhichcouldbecausing
theproblem.IftheL.O.systemand/orthehydraulicsystemwasdisturbedit'spossiblethatsomedirtwas

dislodgedthathascausedaservovalveproblem.Iftheservoswerereplaced,thentheymaynotbetheright
servos,theymaynotbeinstalledproperly,theymightnotbewiredcorrectly.Ifthegascontrolvalveswere
refurbishedtheymightnothavetheproperinternals,theymightnotbeassembledcorrectly,theymightnot
havebeenadjustedproperly,and/ortheactuatormaynothavebeeninstalledorservicedcorrectly.
Thecombustionhardwaremaynothavebeencorrectlyinstalled,orthefuelnozzlesmaynothavetheproper
orifices.Again,inmyexperiencebasedonthescantinformationprovidedmostproblemslikethisare
mechanical(improperreassembly;impropermanualvalvepositions;impropercombustionhardwareand/or
fuelnozzles).OccasionallyimproperLVDTcalibrationprocedurescausesimilarproblemsaftermaintenance
outages.Improperinstallationofsubstitutionofservovalveshavealsocausedproblems.
ButunlesssomeonehasbeendeliberatelymakingchangestoSpeedtronicparameters,orhasnotproperlyre
terminatedwiringaftertheoutagethentheproblemismostlikelymechanicalnomatterhowmuchthe
MechanicalDept.wantseveryonetobelieveotherwise.It'ssomeone'sjobatthispointtoreviewthework
whichwasdoneinordertomakeadeterminationastothemostlikelycause(s)oftheproblemandthen
methodicallyworkthroughthemuntiltheactualcauseisfoundandresolved.
There'svirtuallynothingwecandoatthispointbasedontheinformationprovidedtohelpyou.There'sno
logicwhichcanbeforcedwithoutthepotentialforcatastrophicdamage!!!Nomagicbuttontopush.Justa
recommendationforsolidanalysisandmethodicaltroubleshooting.
Andarequestthatyouwritebackwhenthecauseoftheproblemisfoundandresolved!

By ABDI on 8 February, 2014 - 8:14 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
yousaidThepresumptionisthatifthefourprimaryflamedetectorsallindicatetheabsenceofflamethenthere
isnoflameinanyoftheothertencombustors.But,thehighspreadsespeciallyiftheyareinCelsiusindicate
thatflamemaystillbepresentinoneormorecombustorswhenit'snotpresentinthefourwiththeflame
detectors.
Or,ifthefuelflowstoallthesecondarynozzlesarenotuniformthenunevenpressurescanexistinthe
combustorswhichcouldcauseprimaryzonereignitionswhichpreventattainmentofPremixmode.
Ihaveaquestionwecanchangetheflamescannerfromtheonecantoanothercan?becauseindocument
showstheflamedetectormustbeincan#4,5,10,11butinreallythereisinmyunitatcan#1,2,3,4.
thankalotforreplyme.

By CSA
ABDI,

on 8 February, 2014 - 7:51 pm

Primaryflamedetectors(Ipresumeyouaretalkingaboutprimarycombustionzoneflamedetectorsyou
weren'tspecific...)canonlybemountedoncombustioncanswithmountsandthathavecombustionlinersand
flowsleeveswiththeappropriatesight"tube"holesthroughwhichtheprimaryzoneflamedetectorcansee
diffusionflame.Mostturbinesonlyhavefourcombustioncanswithprimaryflamedetectormounts,andfour
combustionliners(andflowsleeves)withsighttubeholes.Itmightbepossibletoshuttheturbinedownand
shufflecans/flowsleeves/linersaroundtochangethepositionsoftheprimaryzoneflamedetectors.
Pleasewritebacktoletusknowhowthisprogresses.
Thanks!

By MIKEVI
on 6 December, 2013 - 4:55 pm
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
SoAbdi,slowlywearelearningmoreaboutyourproblem,asCSAhassaidthemoreinformationyoucan
provide,thebetterwecantrytohelp.
YouindicatethattheunitisattemptingtotransferfromLeanleantopremix.Flameisbeingextinguishedin
theprimaryzonewhentheprimarygasvalvegoesclosed.Butinsteadofflamestayingonlyinthesecondary
zone,itisreestablishingitselfintheprimaryzoneastheprimarygasvalvestartstoopenagain.
AgainasCSAhasindicatedthistypeofproblemafteraCIorHGPinspectionistypicallyrelatedtoa
hardwareissue.
Myfirstquestionwouldbehaveyouverifiedalltheflamedetectors?Duringstartupwhenyouareinprimary
modeareyouindicatingflameonlyontheprimarychannels?Sincetheleadsfortheprimaryandsecondary
flamedetectorsareclosetoeachotherIhaveseenthemconnectedincorrectlybefore.Thiscancauseflameto
beindicatedfromtheincorrectflamedetectorchannel.
Asfarashardware,whoproducedyourhardware,nozzles,TP,liners,etc?WasitGE,oranaftermarket
supplier?Forflametomovefromthesecondaryzonebackintotheprimaryzonecouldbecausedbymany
issues.Leakingfuelnozzlesforthesecondarynozzlecouldallowaflamepaththatwouldallowtheflameto
travelbackintotheprimaryzone.Aproblemwiththelinercouldchangetherequiredpressuredropacrossthe
linerventuri,allowingflametotravelbackintotheprimaryzone.
Anyinstrumentationissuesthatcauseanincorrectreadingofreferencetemperature(TTRF)cancausetheunit
toatttemptthetransferatanincorrectloadwherecompressorairflowsarenotatcorrectvalues.
Whattemperaturedoestheunitattempttotransfer?Isisaround1950degf?Atwhatmegawattloaddoesthis
occur?Isthisloadconsistentwithwhatitdidpriortotheoutage?
Aretheexhaustspreadsyouareseeingnowconsistentwithwhattheywerepriortotheoutage?Assumingyou
didnothavethisissuethen.Anylargeexhaustspreadindicatespoorcombustioninatleastonecan.Thiscan
causeapressuredropacrosstwoadjacentcans,whichcanallowflametomovebackfromthesecondaryzone
totheprimaryzone.Doyounoticeancrossfiretubesindicatinghighertemperaturethanothers,orpossibly
glowing?
Primaryzonereignitionisnotaneasyissuetodiagnose,butwewillcontinuetotryandhelp,making
suggestionsthatmayleadtoadiscovery.Keeptheinformationcoming.

By CSA
on 7 December, 2013 - 1:30 pm
Iftheexhaustspreadtemperaturesdescribedbyabdiare(asIsuspect)inCelsius,theyareREALLYhigh.One
mustremembertherearefourteencombustorsonaFrame9Eandonlyfourofthemhaveflamedetectorsinthe
primarycombustionzone.Thepresumptionisthatifthefourprimaryflamedetectorsallindicatetheabsence
offlamethenthereisnoflameinanyoftheothertencombustors.But,thehighspreadsespeciallyiftheyare
inCelsiusindicatethatflamemaystillbepresentinoneormorecombustorswhenit'snotpresentinthefour
withtheflamedetectors.Or,ifthefuelflowstoallthesecondarynozzlesarenotuniformthenuneven
pressurescanexistinthecombustorswhichcouldcauseprimaryzonereignitionswhichpreventattainmentof
Premixmode.

Again,thesesymptomsaremostlikelytheresultofmechanicalissues,whichcanincludeplugged("choked")
secondaryfuelnozzleorifices,problemswithcombustionliners,problemswithfuelcontrolvalvesand/orthe
LVDTcalibrationsorfuelcontrolvalves,etc.
Basedontheinformationprovided,itcontinuestolooklikeamechanicalissue(assuchproblemsusuallyare).
Finally,duringaLeanLeantoPremixtransfertheSpeedtronicisusuallyautomaticallyraisingload,which
automaticallyincreasestheallowableexhausttemperaturespreadtothemaximum,andthenwhentheload
increaseiscompletetheallowableexhausttemperaturespreadwillstartintegratingdown.Theallowable
exhausttemperatureisusuallyafunctionofaxialcompressordischargetemperature,soifthethermocouples
aren'tworkingproperly(astheyfrequentlydon'taftermanyamaintenanceoutage)thentheallowableexhaust
temperaturespreadwon'tbecorrect,either.
EvenifthespreadsareindegFtheyarestillhighforamachinejustcomingoffanoutage.

By abdi on 8 December, 2013 - 6:02 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
ATTIME15:03:30:500FLAMEatprimaryzoneextinguished,thenattime15:03:46:500theflamedetectedin
primaryzone.duringthistimethespread#1,2,3goesupto112,107,88
thetemperatureofexhaustareinCelsius:
TTXD1:573
TTXD10:618
TTXD11:601
TTXD12:597
TTXD13:602
TTXD14:603
TTXD15:613
TTXD16:590
TTXD17:555
TTXD18:547
TTXD19:544
TTXD2:545
TTXD20:584
TTXD21:585
TTXD22:581
TTXD23:576
TTXD24:571
TTXD3:529
TTXD4:510
TTXD5:504
TTXD6:540
TTXD7:559
TTXD8:590
TTXD9:617
WEhavefourflamedetectorinprimaryzone:
can#14,3,2,1
MW:84

TTRF1:1077inCelsiusGOESTOPREMIX
CPD:8.5BAR
ITHINKTHEPRESSUREofdischargeofcompressorislow.AMICORRECT?
yousaycheckthecalibrationtheLVDTOFgascontrolvalvepleasesaytomehowyoufindthecalibrationof
LVDTofvalvemaybecausetheproblemorwhichsignalmustbechecktosure?

By CSA
abdi,

on 8 December, 2013 - 11:00 pm

Yes;CPDdoesseemlow.DoalltheCPDtransmittersindicatethesamepressure?Howdoesthatcompare
withtheCPDPressureGaugeontheAccessoryGaugePanel?Howdoesitcomparewithoperationbeforethe
HGPI?
Iftheignitorsarefiringtoreignitetheprimaryflamedetectorsthenit'sprobablybecauseofthehigh
spread(s),butIwouldexpectaCombustionTroubleAlarmtooccuralso(that'saguessbasedonearly
SpeedtronicDLNIsequencing;GEBelforthavemadeaLOTofchangestowhatwasoncestandard
sequencing).
AsforverifyingLVDTcalibrations,thathastobedoneoffline,whileactuallymeasuringvalvepositionand
comparingittoreferenceandcalibratedLVDTfeedback.
However,basedonthedelaybetweenlossofprimaryflameandreestablishmentofprimaryflameitcontinues
tosoundmoreandmorelikeamechanicalproblemwithcombustionhardwareand/orcombustionhardwarere
assembly.Which,again,mostoftheseproblemsare.
Arethewitches'hatstrainersinstalledinthegasfuelpiping?Ifso,havethenbeencheckedforcleanliness?If
thesamespreadsoccuratthesameexhaustthermocoupleseachtimeyoutrytotransfertoPremix,thenyou
needtostartpullingprimaryandsecondaryfuelnozzlestocheckforblockagesorsomethinglikethat.
Again,wedon'tknowwhatwasdonetothecontrolsystemduringtheoutageANDmostofthesekindsof
problemsaftermechanicalmaintenanceoutagesaremechanical/reassemblyproblems.Ifyoupurchased
combustionhardwarefromsomeoneotherthantheOEM,that'soneplacetosuspect.I'veseenincorrect
dilutionholescausesimilarproblems,andinabilitiestomaintainNOxand/orCOemissionsevenifPremix
couldbeobtained.
Bestofluck!Pleasedowritebacktoletusknowwhatyoufind.Alotofpeoplearefollowingthisthreadto
learnhowtheproblemwasresolved.

By abdi on 11 December, 2013 - 12:08 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
YOUtellmethedelaybetweenlossofprimaryflameandreestablishmentofprimaryflameitcontinuesto
soundmoreandmorelikeamechanicalproblemwithcombustionhardwareand/orcombustionhardwarere
assembly.ITmeansthatwemustopeningthehardwarecombustionchamber.ITHINKIT'SDIFFICULTTO
DObecausetheallofthingforcombustionchambernowisnewandopeningthissystemishardworkandI
amnotsureexactlywhatprobleminhardwarecombustionchamberexit,pleaseguidanceme.
beforeHGPFOR5000hrsthisunitworkinpremixmodeafterthatthisunitcan'tgotopremixmodeandfor
881hrsworksinextendedleanleanmode.

By CSA
on 11 December, 2013 - 10:48 am
1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
abdi,
Thecontrolsystemcanonlydosomuch.Itcannotbeusedtomakeamechanicalissuelikethisgoaway.
GEpublicationGER3620sayseveryhourofoperationinExtendedeanLeanistheequivalentofTENhours
ofoperationinPremixmode.
WhenaDLNIcombustorisoperatedinExt.LeanLeanmodethereisdiffusionflameinboththeprimaryand
secondarycombustionzones.AndiftheunitisbeingoperatedatornearBaseLoadthenquitealotoffuelis
beingcombustedinadiffusionflame(hottestpossibleflametemperatures)andthediffusionflameimpinges
ontheventuribetweentheprimaryandsecondarycombustionzonesweakeningtheventuri.
TherehavebeenotherreportsonvariousWebforums,includingcontrol.com,aboutseriousandcatastrophic
failuresofcombustionhardwareafterprolongedoperationathighloadinExt.LeanLeanmode
Ifullyunderstandyourfrustrationandthefactthatyouareaskingwhytheunitwon'ttransferinto
Premix.Thelikelyreasonisthatsomethingwasnotreassembledcorrectly,orthewrongpartswereused
duringreassembly,buttheproblemisnotlikelythecontrolsystem.Byconfiningtooperatetheunitin
ExtendedLeanLeanyouaredoingevenmoredamagetothehotgaspathcomponents.
DLNIsystemsarecomplexsystemsandifitwerepossibleforsomeonetosay,"Adjust[thisorthat]andyou
willbeabletotransferintoPremixmode,"itwouldhavebeensuggestedalready.
Usingaqualifiedcontractor/supervisorandpartssuppliertoperformHGPIandsimilarmaintenanceworkis
critical.Allowingacontractor/supervisortoleavesitewithouttheunitbeingabletoreturntonormaloperation
isnottypical.Havingaqualifiedandknowledgeablecontrolspersonpresentduringtherestartisgood
insuranceagainsttroublelikethis.
Yes;it'shard,difficult,andextremelyexpensivetoshuttheunitdownandtakeitapartagainsosoonafter
theHGPIbutBASEDONTHEINFORMATIONPROVIDEDINRESPONSETOQUESTIONS
ASKEDOFYOUthat'swhatit'slikelygoingtorequiretoresolveyourissue.
Here'salinktoanotherthreadoncontrol.comaboutthedamagecausedbycontinuedoperationinExt.Lean
Leanandanotherunitthatdidn'tdoregularlyscheduledmaintenance.Theyarebothscaryscenarios.
http://www.control.com/thread/1375449205
ThereisaFrame9DiscussionGrouponLinkedInthatalsohasasimilardiscussionatthesametime
(month/year)astheoneabovecomplainingaboutdamagecausedbyprolongedoperationinExt.LeanLean
modewhenitwasnotpossibletotransfertoPremix.
InallthesecasestheexactcauseoftheinabilitytotransfertoPremixwasneverdeterminedbecauseofthe
extensivedamagetotheunit.
I'mtryingtotellyoutogetthecontractor/supervisoroftheHGPIbacktositetoinvestigateandcorrectthe
inabilitytotransfertoPremix,ortheconsequencesmaybecatastrophic.
Pleasewritebacktoletusknowwhenyoudofinallytakethecombustionsystemapartwhatthecombustion
linerslooklike.

By 309EGuy on 7 December, 2013 - 7:54 pm

HaveyoucheckedtheoperationofthetertiarymanifoldgaspurgevalvesVA133andVA134.We
encounteredthisproblemonceanditendedupbeenthetimingoftheabovevalves.Frommemoryithinkthe
requirementis40secondsmaxtoopen.Alsotheswitches33PG5678,and63PG2shouldbecheckedalso.

By Mambo on 12 December, 2013 - 9:27 pm

HelloDearFriends
ThisismyexperiencewithoneoftheDLN1frame6GeGasturbinesatoneofoursites.Italsohappened
aftertheHGPinspection.Theflamewasgettingextinguishedinprimaryzonebutwasreestablished
immediatelywhenmachinewasgettingtransferedprimarytosecondarymodeandgetstransferedtoextended
leanleanmode,ThereasonlateronwefoundoutwastheSparkplug.
Thetechinicianfixedtheinsertionlengthofthesparkplugmoreintothecombustionchamberwhichreignited
theprimaryzone.Pleasecheckyoursparkplugsinsertion.oryoumayfindthesparkplugisalmostburnthalf
way?
AlsotherearesoftwaretemperatureswitchsandconditionsintheMKVsoftwareprogramwhichwillallow
transferiftheconditionsaremet.Pleasecheckiftheconstantsandsetvalueswerenotchanged
Cheers
Mambo

By CSA
on 13 December, 2013 - 12:11 am
0 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
Mambo,
Idon'tunderstandhowignitorinsertiondepthcanhaveanythingtodowithfailuretotransferfromLeanLean
toPremix.Duringasuccessfultransfer,theignitorsshouldnotbeenergized,soinsertiondepthshouldnot
haveaneffect.
Theintentofextinguishingdiffusionflameintheprimarycombustionzoneistothenreintroducegasfuelinto
theprimarycombustionzonewithoutdiffusionflametocreateanextremelyleanfuel/airmixtureandreduce
hotgastemperaturewhichreducestheformationofNOx.
IftheignitorsfireafterflameisisextinguishedintheprimarycombustionzoneduringorevenafteraLean
LeantoPremixtransferit'sbecauseeitherdiffusionflamewasdetectedinoneormoreofthecombustorswith
flamedetectors,ORahighexhausttemperaturespreadwasdetected(whichcouldbeanindicationofdiffusion
flameinoneofthecombustorsWITHOUTflamedetectors).
ThereisoneotherconditionwhentheignitorsshouldbeenergizedduringPremixoperation:whentheunitis
beingunloadedandatransferfromPremixtoLeanLeanisbeinginitiated.
Ihavehadtoadjustignitorinsertiondepthbecausewhentheunitwouldtripbecausediffusioncouldnotbere
establishedintheprimarycombustionzoneduringunloading/shutdown.Airflowsaresohighathigherloads
thatiftheignitorisnotproperlylocatedinthecombustorthattheairflowwillnotallowthesparktoreignite
thefuelintheprimarycombustionzone,causingtheunittotripbecauseofaninabilitytoestablishdiffusion
flameduringunloading/shutdown.
So,ifyoucouldclarifyorexplainhowignitorinsertiondepthisaproblemwhentheignitorsshouldnotbe
energizedthatwouldhelpmyunderstandingofyourdescription.

TheoriginalposterhasNOTprovidedanyinformationaboutwhatchangesmayormaynothavebeenmadeto
theControlSystemorcontrolsystemparameters.Usually,thesekindsofthingsarenotadjustedduringany
maintenanceoutage,becausetheyneverchange.Theyareprettyuniversalsettingsformostmachineswith
DLNIcombustionsystems.
Hopefullywe'llhearbackfromtheoriginalposterafterhe'stakenthemachineapartanddiscoveredwhatthe
problemwasandtheunitthensuccessfullytransfersintoPremixmode.

By mhwest on 14 December, 2013 - 10:21 am

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
CSA,
Ihaveseenexcessiveigniterinsertiondepthcausereignitionoftheprimaryshortlyaftertransferanumberof
timesovertheyears.It'saglowplug.

By CSA
mhwest,

on 15 December, 2013 - 5:46 am

Thisisanunderstandableexplanation.
However,oneonewouldthinkiftheignitorweregettinghotenoughtobecomeaglowplugthatthelifeIOC
theignitorwouldbesignificantlyshortenedevenafterthedepthwasdecreased.Also,sincetheignitorsare
usuallyheldinpositionbyaSwaglockcompressionfittingthatitwouldhavetocutoffextremelycarefullyto
preventdamagetotheignitorbody.
Atanyrate,thanksfortheadditionalinformation.It'smosthelpful.

By Ebi on 15 December, 2013 - 9:59 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Helloeveryone
theproblemisnottheignitorpositionbecausewedonothaveanyflameuntiltheCGV1reached27%of
opening(fromLeanLeantopremix).Itmeansifwehadglowonignitorthenimmediatelyweshouldseethe
flame.
alsowecheckedthereignationgraph,alwaysthestatewas0.Sothebigquestionis,assoonaswehavemixed
airandfuelinprimarycombustionat27%ofopeningofCGV1,weseetheflameinprimarywithouthaving
anyreignation??

By CSA
on 16 December, 2013 - 12:11 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Ebi/abdi,
AccordingtoMambo'sandmhwest'sexplanations,theproblemcouldverywellbetheignitorposition.What
they'redescribingisthatthetipofoneorbothoftheignitorsifinsertedtoofarintothecombustionlinergets

VERYhotduringdiffusionflameoperationinPrimaryandLeanLeancombustionmodes,hotenoughto
ignitefuelintheprimarycombustionzoneoncetheair/fuelmixturegetsaboveminimumcombustionmixture
(richensupenoughtobecapableofdiffusionflame).
Oncemore,duringaLeanLeantoPremixtransfer,thefueltotheprimarycombustionzoneiscompletelyshut
off(it'salldirectedtothesecondarycombustionzone).Then,onceflameisNOTdetectedforafewseconds,
thegascontrolvalvethatdirectsfueltotheprimarycombustionzonestartsopeningtoreadmitfueltothe
primarycombustion(asthefueltothesecondarycombustionzoneisreducedatthesameratethistoprevent
loadswings).IFthereissomeignitionsourcetheextremelyhottipofanignitorthatisinsertedtoofarinto
thecombustionline,forexamplethenthefuelthatisbeingreadmittedtotheprimarycombustionzonecan
bereignited.So,justasyoudescribesometimeafterfuelstartsbeingreadmittedintotheprimarycombustion
zoneifthereissomethinghotenoughtoignitethefuelintoadiffusionflamethen,voila!ExtendedLeanLean
combustionmodeisswitchedto.(Infact,ifflameisdetectedintheprimarycombustionzoneduringaLean
LeantoPremixtransferorduringPremixmode,theignitorsareignitedforashortperiodjusttoensurethat
ALLtheprimarycombustionzonesareignited(throughthecrossfiretubes)topreventhighexhaust
temperaturespreadsfromdamagingthehotgaspathturbinebuckets.
WheninPremixcombustionmode,thereisnodiffusionflameintheprimarycombustionzoneeventhough
approximately80%ofthefuelisbeingintroducedintotheprimarycombustionzone.Togetthelow
temperaturesrequiredtoreduceNOxemissionsit'snecessarytoextinguishtheflameintheprimary
combustionzonethatexistsduringPrimaryandLeanLeanoperationandtheonlywaytodothatistoremove
allthefuelfromtheprimarycombustionzone.
Oncethediffusionflameisout(becausethereisnofuelflowingintotheprimarycombustionzoneforafew
seconds)thenfuelstartsbeingreadmittedtotheprimarycombustion.Undernormalcircumstancesthereisno
ignitionsourceintheprimarycombustionzoneandtheair/fuelmixtureissoleanthatdiffusionflamedoesnot
existintheprimarycombustionzone.Thepremixingofthegasfuelintheprimarycombustionzoneis
sufficienttoproducethehotgasesrequiredfortheturbinetoproducetorquebutnotsohotthatexcessive
NOxisformed.
ThemostcommonsourceofprimarycombustionzonereignitioninGEdesignheavydutygasturbineDLNI
combustionsystemsisthepresenceofhydrocarbonbasedsolidswhicharesohottheycanignitethenatural
gasfueloncethereisenoughfueltobeignited.Suchsolidscomefromliquidcontaminantsinthegasfuel
that"coke"andformsolidsonthefuelnozzles(usually)thatgetVERYhot,hotenoughtoignitegasfuel
oncetheair/fuelmixturereachestheminimummixtureandcausetheunittotransfertoExtendedLeanLean
mode.Suchcontaminantsincludelubricatingoil(fromthenaturalgascompressors),sealoil(fromthenatural
gascompressors),dieselandgasoline(yesbothdomysteriouslygetintonaturalgaspipelines;gasanalysis
reportshaveconfirmedthisonmanyoccasions),andotherhydrocarbonbasedliquidsentrainedinnaturalgas
pipelines.
So,trytoenvisionwhat'sgoingonduringaLeanLeantoPremixtransferwhenfuelisshutofftotheprimary
combustionzonethenreadmitted,andrecognizethatanyignitionsource(suchasahotorglowingember,or
theoverheatedtipofanimproperlyinsertedignitor)cancausethefueltoigniteintoadiffusionflamewhen
theair/fuelmixturegetshighenoughasfuelisbeingreadmittedtotheprimarycombustionzoneastheLean
LeantoPremixtransferisbeingcompleted.
WeretheignitorsreplacedduringtheHGPI?Wastheinsertiondepthsetwhenthenewignitorswereinstalled?
(Thisusuallyrequiresauniquetooltomeasurethedistancefromtheignitormountingflangetotheinsideedge
ofthecombustionliner.)Iftheignitors,orevenjustoneofthetwoignitors,were/wasreplacedandthe
insertiondepthwasnotsetcorrectlythenthiscouldindeedbythe"sparkinggun"inyourproblem.
Pleasewritebacktokeepusinformedoftheprogressandresolution.

By abdi on 25 December, 2013 - 2:53 pm

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
hi,
WETESTTHESPARKPLUGIGNITIONTHEREISnotanyproblemabouttheignitor.
butIthinkTHEREISAPROBLEMFORTRANSFERRINGNOZZLEofcombustionchamber#1,because
atanyloadjustduringthetransferringthiscombustionhavetheminimumtemperature.
THEMINIMUMTEMPERATUREWAS424deg_cwiththeloadofgasturbinewas115MW.
THEsecondlowtemperaturewas443deg_cforcombustionchamber#2,thethirdlowtemperaturefor
combustionchamber#10was470deg_c.
thehightemperaturewas588deg_cforcombustionchamber#6.
AMItrue?thereisproblemfortransferringnozzleofcombustionchamber#1.butIdon'tknowwhatproblem
exactlyexit?
THEthreeofgasdetectionindownofcombustionchamberwasactivatedduringthehighload.
thanksalot.

By Mambo
DearCSA,

on 16 December, 2013 - 9:24 am

ThishappenedonFr6DLN1GEmachine.WhenGTstartitisonPrimarymodeoffiring,afteritgets
transferstoLLmodewhenflameispresentinBothZones.TransferringfromLLtoPremixmodehappens
around1823MW.Atthistimeflamehastobepresentonlyinsecondaryzoneside.Duetothesparkplug
insertionlengthmoreintothechamberitwasredhotanddidn'tallowtheflametoextinguishandreignite
primaryzone.thesparkplugwhenremovedonshutdownwasfoundburntandindamagedcondition(steel
coveroverporcelainfoundwornout).Thesparkplugreplacedwithnewandadjustedasperspec.justfewmm
neartocombustionlinear.

By CSA
on 17 December, 2013 - 3:31 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Mamboandmhwest,
Thanksfortheexplanationsandclarifications!
Icontinuetolearnfromtheexperienceandknowledgeofothershereatcontrol.comwhichiswhatmakesthis
sitesousefultosomanypeople.
Thanks,again!

By mhwest on 18 December, 2013 - 7:16 am

ThankstoyoualsoCSA.Ihavefoundyourfrequentanddetailedtutorialsveryeducational.Idon'tbelieveI've
evermetyou,hopetosomedayyourdiscussionstyleisunlikeanyoneIrecallworkingwithovertheyears.

By Mambo on 18 December, 2013 - 10:16 pm

DearCSAandtheteam
Thanksforyourappreciation,thiswhatencourageeveryonetosharetheirexperience.
Cheers
Mambo

By ABDI on 28 December, 2013 - 8:02 am

0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Hi,
Wetestthesparkplugignitionthereisnotanyproblemabouttheigniter.ButIthinkthereisaproblemfor
transferringnozzleofcombustionchamber#1,becauseatanyloadjustduringthetransferringthiscombustion
havetheminimumtemperature.
Theminimumtemperaturewas424degcwiththeloadofgasturbinewas115MW.Thesecondlow
temperaturewas443degcforcombustionchamber#2,thethirdlowtemperatureforcombustionchamber#
10was470degc.Thehightemperaturewas588degcforcombustionchamber#6.
AmItrue?Thereisproblemfortransferringnozzleofcombustionchamber#1,butIdon'tknowwhat
problemexactlyis?
Thethreeofgasdetectionindownofcombustionchamberwasactivatedduringthehighload.
AfterFixthegasleakfromthegasinlettothreemanifoldofprimary,secondary,transferforcan#7andstart
theunitin10mwwehave500ppmCOinturbineandcombustionchambercabin.Afterincreasetheloadto
45mwconcentrationofcoreachtozero,why?

By ABDI on 15 March, 2014 - 6:19 am

Hi,
Wecheckthecombustionhardwarebutwedidn'tseeanyproblem.
Wecan'tgotopremixmode.everytrygotopremixmodeduringtransferringtheflameatprimarywas
detectedandwehavespreadjustduringtransferring.thenwedon'tknowwhatthingmustbecheck.
duringunsuccessfulpremixmodewehavejustextendedleanleanmodehighemissionalarmthatmeansthe
unsuccessfulpremixmode.
Wecheckthetrendof24thermocoupleofexhaustjustduringtransferring.wehavespreadaround100degC
andwhentheGCV3(GASCONTROLVALVEFORTRANSFERRING)HADmaximumopeningtheload
(MW)REDUCEDaround4MW,BUTIdon'tknowwhy?
Pleasehelpmebecausewecan'tincreasetheloadofgasturbineandwedon'tknowwhichloadisbetterfor
thisunit.
THANKSALOTFORREPLYME.

By CSA

on 15 March, 2014 - 2:38 pm

ABDI,
ThefundamentalsoftransferringfromLeanLeantoPremixareasfollows:
1)ReducethefuelgoingtothePrimarycombustionzonetoextinguishtheflameinthePrimarycombustion
zone;thismeansallthefuelflowingtothePrimarycombustionzonehastobestopped.Todo
thisandmaintainloadit'snecessarytoshiftallofthefueltotheSecondarycombustionzone.
2)OncethePrimarycombustionzoneflamehasbeenlostforafewseconds,thenstartincreasingthefuelflow
backtothePrimarycombustionzonewhiledecreasingthefuelflowingtotheSecondarycombustionzone.
(Loadisafunctionoffuelflowtomaintainstableload,thetotalfuelflowingto,andburningin,the
combustorsmustremainstable.)
IfatanytimeafterPrimaryflamewaslostandfuelisbeingreadmittedtothePrimarycombustionzoneif
flameisagaindetectedthentheignitorsareenergizedandfuelflowtothetwocombustionzonesisdriven
backtoapproximately5050(50%tothePrimaryand50%totheSecondary).
Ashasbeenexplained,therecanbemanyreasonsforPrimaryzonereignition:anignitororignitorsinserted
toodeepintotheprimarycombustionzone;somethingentrainedinthegasfuelflowthatignitesorleavesa
residuebehindthatisglowinghotenoughtoigniteadiffusionflameinthePrimarycombustionzone;
problemswiththecombustionlinerdesignandconstruction(particularlyiftheywerenotbuiltbyareputable
company).
ThereisaventuriinthecombustionlinerthatseparatesthePrimaryandSecondarycombustionzones.The
purposeoftheventuriistoincreasethevelocityoftheair/gasflowingfromthePrimarycombustionzoneto
theSecondarycombustionzonetobesohighthatdiffusionflamefromtheSecondarycombustionzonecannot
travelinareversedirectionbackintothePrimarycombustionzoneandreignitethefuelintoadiffusion
flame.So,ifthecombustionlinerisnotbuiltproperlythenthiscouldalsobeacauseoftheproblemsyouare
experiencing.
But,theremustbesomeignitionsourceinthePrimarycombustionzone(notnecessarilytheignitorsbeing
energizedbythecontrolsystemPRIORtothedetectionofdiffusionflamebythePrimaryflamedetectors).
It'seitheroilorgasolineornaturalgasliquidsthatarebeingignitedbythediffusionflameintheSecondary
combustionzoneandworkingtheirwaybacktothePrimarycombustionzone,orsomeothersource(carbon
buildupsthatarehotenoughtoignitethegasfuelbeingreintroducedtothePrimarycombustionzoneduring
thelatterstagesofthePremixtransferprocess)thatisignitingthefuelinthePrimarycombustionzoneintoa
diffusionflame.
Yousayyouhavehighspreadsduringtransferattempts,andthatloaddropsduringtransferattempts.That'san
indicationthatthefuelflowstothevariouscombustorsarenotequalequalfuelflowswouldmeantheexhaust
temperatureswereequal.(Itcouldalsomeanthatairflowstothecombustorswerenotequal,butthat'shardto
imaginewhenthecombustorshavenomovingpartsandshouldallbevirtuallyidenticalagain,here'swherea
reputablesupplierisimportant.)
Youhavealsoindicatedthatthesamethermocouplesalwaysindicateaspreadandyouhaveindicatedthat
youbelievethehotgasesflowstraightthroughtheturbinetotheexhaust.Unfortunately,thehotgasesdoNOT
flowstraightthroughtheturbinetotheexhaust;thereisa"swirl"effect,particularlyatlowload.So,while
exhaustT/Cs1and2aredirectlydownstreamofcombustor#1,theyarenotalwaysdirectlyindicativeof
what'sgoingonincombustor#1atallloads.
Whenyousayyouhavecheckedthecombustionhardware,that'snotverydescriptive,unfortunately.
Isthenaturalgasflowingtotheturbinepressurizedbyacompressornearby?Or,isthenaturalgassupply
pressurestableduringthetransfer?NaturalgassupplypressurefluctuationsduringPremixtransferscancause
sufficientproblemswiththefuelflowstoallowdiffusionflamefromtheSecondarytotravelbackthroughthe
venturiintothePrimarycombustionzone.Also,iftheIGVswerenotstableduringthetransferthiscould
causeaproblem.

YouhaveneversaidiftheunithasIBH(InletBleedHeating)andifitisactive/enabledduringthesePremix
transfers.
Lastly,ifthefuelflowstothesecondarycombustionzonesarenotallequalthenit'spossiblethatthespreads
andotherproblemscouldbetheresultofpluggedsecondaryfuelnozzleorifices,andifthesecondaryfuel
nozzleshave"transfer"gaspassages(whichissoundsliketheydo)thenifsomeofthemwerepluggedthat
couldbeapartoftheproblemaswell.
But,mymoneyisonsomethinginthegasfuelfloworsomethinginthePrimarycombustionzonesofthe
combustionlinersignitingthegasfuelflowingintothePrimarycombustionzonewhenitgetshighenoughto
sustaindiffusionflame(i.e.,whenthefuelairmixturegetstothepointthatitcansustaindiffusionflame).
Ifmymemoryservesmecorrectly,thereisoneotherconditionwhichcancauseaPremixtransfertobe
abortedoratransfertoExtendedLeanLean:highexhausttemperaturespreads.Thetheoryhereisthatthere
PrimaryflamedetectorsareNOTinstalledineverycombustioncan.Thismeansthatifdiffusionflamewereto
beignitedinthePrimarycombustionzoneofacombustioncanwithoutaPrimaryflamedetectorthattheflame
detectionsystemwouldnotbeabletodetectthediffusionflame.HOWEVER,diffusionflameburnsmuch
hotterthanPremixcombustionandthisresultsinahighexhausttemperaturespread(thehotgasesfromthis
combustorwithdiffusionflamewouldbemuchhotterthanthecombustiongasesfromthecombustorson
eithersidethatwereinPremixsteadystatecombustionmode)sothereforeahighexhausttemperaturespread
inPremixSteadyState(orwhiletransferringtoPremixSteadyState)couldbeanindicationofdiffusionflame
inacombustioncanwithoutaPrimaryflamedetector.So,italsotriggersatransfertoExtendedLeanLean,or
abortsaPremixtransferprocedureresultinginExtendedLeanLeanoperation.
YoumustusethetroubleshootingtoolsavailableontheSpeedtronicturbinecontrolsystemtodeterminewhich
isoccurring:PrimaryzoneflamedetectionORhighexhausttemperaturespreadthatisresultinginExtended
LeanLeanoperation,andaninabilitytotransferintoorremaininPremixcombustionmode.
Ifit'shighexhausttemperaturespreads,thenit'smostlikelytheresultofunevenfuelflowsintothe
combustionchambersofoneormorecombustorsWITHOUTPrimaryflamedetectorswhichhelpsnarrow
downthenumberofcombustorssomewhat.Thefactthatyousayloadisdroppingwhentheexhaust
temperaturespreadsarehigherisalsoindicativeofthepossibilityoflossofsecondaryflameinoneormore
combustioncans(becauseifthesameamountoffuelisflowingintoallcansandloadisdroppingthatmeans
thefuelisoneormoreSecondarycombustionzonesisnotburningwhichalsoresultsinahighexhaust
temperaturespread(thoughitmeansthehotgasesfromthatcan/cansiscoolerthanthegasesfromthecanson
eitherside).
Istronglysuggestyougetsomeoneknowledgeabletositetohelpwiththeproblem.Youseementirely
pressuredtojustsolvetheproblemandthat'snexttoimpossibleifyoucan'ttakethetimetounderstandwhat
thepossiblecausesmightbe(we'veexplainedthemseveraltimesoverhere)andthenlogicallyeliminatethe
possiblecausesuntilyouarriveattherealcause.AnunderstandingofhowDLNcombustionworksinthe
combustoriskeytothistroubleshooting.
AndanunderstandingofhowtheSpeedtronicworksisalsokey.TheSpeedtronicdoesNOTcontrolthe
amountoffuelflowingintoindividualcombustors.Ithasvalveswhichcontroltheamountoffuelinto
manifoldswhichsurroundtheaxialcompressorcasingandthesizesoftheorificesofthefuelnozzlescontrols
theamountoffuelenteringthecombustorbyvirtueofthepressuredifferentialacrosstheorifice(gaspressure
upstream;combustorpressuredownstream).TheSpeedtroniccannotincreaseordecreasethegasfuelflowing
intoanysinglecombustorwithrespecttoanyothercombustor.It'salldoneusingmanifoldstowhichallfuel
nozzlesareconnectedandbyhavingopenandfreeflowingnozzleorificestheSpeedtroniconlycontrolsthe
totalamountoffuelflowingintothemanifolds.Theamountoffuelflowingintoeachcombustorisafunction
ofthesizeandnumberoforificesandwhetherornottheorificesarecleanandclear.Pluggedfuelnozzle
orificescancauseimbalancesinfuelflowratesintoindividualcombustors,resultinginhighexhaust
temperaturespreads.

PLEASEhaveaknowledgeablepersoncometositetohelpwiththeproblemsandthenwritebacktoletus
knowwhatwasfoundtobetheproblem.
Troubleshootingisalogicalprocessofeliminationwhenyoudon'tknowwhattheproblemis,youhaveto
eliminatethepossiblecauses.
Iftheunithas"knockoutdrums"(cycloneseparators;coalescingfilters;etc.)haveyouverifiedthatnoliquid
isbeingcollected,orthattheamountofliquidisnotexcessive?FuelgasusedforGEdesignheavydutygas
turbinesMUSTnothaveatemperaturethatisclosetothedewpointtemperatureofthegas.Becauseasgas
flowsthroughvalvesthereisatemperaturedropacrosseachvalveANDatemperaturedropacrosseachfuel
nozzleorifice,andthiscancausegasfuelliquidvaporstocondenseandcauseprimaryzonereignitions.GE
recommendsathegasfueltemperaturebeatleast50degFabovethedewpointtopreventthepossibilityof
condensationacrossvalvesandorificesandcondensatehasdefinitelybeenknowntocausePrimary
combustionzonereignitions,withPERFECTcombustionhardware.
Lastly,youneedtoremember:Theunitwasworkingfinebeforetheoutage.So,thinklongandhardabout
whatwaschangedandwhatwasworkedon(mechanicallyandonthecontrolsystem:valves,Control
Constants,etc.).Andeliminateallthethingswhichwere"touched"orchangedduringtheoutageaspossible
causesoftheproblem.
AlogicaltroubleshootingprocessderivedfromanunderstandingofDLNprinciplesandsystem
configurations(P&IDs)istheonlywaytosolveaperplexingproblem.
AsforoperatingtheturbineinExtendedLeanLeancombustionmodeyes,theSpeedtronicwillallow
that.HOWEVER,YOUMUSTmultiplyeveryhourofExtendedLeanLeanoperationbyafactor10because
that'showhardonthecombustionlinersitis.DLNIturbineswereNOTdesignedtobeoperatedforextended
periodsinanythingotherthanPremixSteadyStatemode.NotevenLeanLeanmodewhichisjustatransition
modetogettoPremixSteadyState,andhasit'sownmultiplierforequivalenthoursofoperation.
Whoeverdidthemaintenanceoutage,installingnewcombustionpartsandreassemblingtheunit,shouldbe
heldresponsibleforachievingPremixSteadyStateoperationaftertheoutageespeciallyiftheunitwas
operatingproperlybeforetheoutage.TheONLYwaytheycannotbeheldresponsibleisiftheydidn'tprovide
thecombustionpartsinstalledduringtheoutageandthecombustionpartscamefromsomeoneotherthanthe
OEMoroneofitspackagersorfromareputablethirdpartysupplier(andtherearereallyonlytwosuch
suppliersotherthantheOEM;yes,lotsofsalespeopleallsay,"It'sjustlikeGE!"butit'sreallynot).
It'snotverylikelythatthisisacontrolsrelatedproblem.ItsoundsverymuchliketheSpeedtronicisdoingthe
rightthing.Again,please,Please,PLEASE,PLEASEhavesomeoneknowledgeablecometositetohelpsolve
thisproblem.Ifyouneedarecommendation,telluswheretheturbineislocatedandperhapssomeoneherecan
providethenameofaknowledgeablepersonwhocantraveltothesitetoassist.
AndPLEASEwritebacktoletusknowhowtheproblemisbeingtroubleshotandresolved!!!!!!!

By MIKEVI on 16 March, 2014 - 12:16 pm

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
DearAbdi,
IcanonlyrepeatwhatCSAsaidasthereisnowayIcanexplainthingsthewaythathedid.
1)Getsomeoneknowledgeabletositetoassistyouindiagnosis.
2)Yourexhaustsplitsaretoohighforaproperlyoperatingsystem.PriortoatransferIwouldexpectaspread
oflessthan10degc.

3)Thisissuealmosthastoberelatedtohardwaretolerancesorinstallationissues.Unlessyourstaffdid
somethingreallywrongwithreplacementoradjustmentofgasvalvesorIGV'sLVDT'sthenthecontrolsystem
istryingtodowhatitneedsto.
Youneedtobeclearonwhatyoudidtocheckthehardware.Whodidthehardwarecomefrom?Whatpieces
werereplaced?IfthistrulywasaHGPthennormallyfuelnozzles,liners,transitionpiecesatminimum.Asfar
asturbineareathiscanbe1st,2ndand3rdstagenozzlesandbuckets,shroudblocksetc.
Ifyoutrulyfoundloosefuelhosescausingagasleakinearlierpostthispointtosloppywork.
Diagnosingthistypeofissueisverydifficult.ButwiththelargeexhaustspreadIwouldhopethata
knowledgeablepersoncouldanalyzethedataandnarrowdownthepossiblecomponents.Oncethisisdone
theyshouldhavesomeideaastowhattheywouldhopetofindiftheyhavetodisassemblethemachineagain.
Thisproblemhasbeengoingonforawhilebasedonyourpastposts.Runninginleanleanmodeisverybad
forthemachineandyoureallyshouldgetsomeonetheretohelpandrepairtheproblembeforemoredamageif
caused.