R = A middle aged Religious Male

R: I believe homosexuality is wrong. This IS mostly for religious reasons.

Nothing anyone tells me about how evil I am will change the fact that I had an
undeniable (at least to me) spiritual experience during my search for truth. I
cannot accept gay marriage because marriage is reserved for men and women
to create life. Homosexuals cannot create life. I know God still loves them, and
so I do. I wish homosexuals all happiness, but I cannot condone infringing on
the sacred principle of marriage.
ME: Some of the most shameful tragedies in human history have been
committed not by bad people, but by good conscientious people who knew
not what they did. These people were sincere, but not intelligent, and
zealous but not knowledgeable. These people were sincere in their HATE
because they thought it was right. Over and over again the bible warns us of
the danger of zeal without intelligence and sincerity without knowledge. I say
you have been misled in your beliefs.
R: I believe that overcoming our circumstances and conquering them is one of
humanity's defining characteristics, not just religion's.
I try again and again to emphasize my LACK of hate.
I have considered all of the points people will make. I have arrived at my
conclusion, based my personal conviction of God's reality and our purpose on
Earth. I will never commit a hate crime or violent act against homosexuals
because of that. Do I really come across as a zealot?
ME: Yes. Your words, but I cannot condone infringing on the sacred
principle of marriage."......This belief is zealous in denying equal rights to
another person due to their sexuality. That is discrimination. Discrimination
is not love. It may not be an extreme or violent hate crime, but it's still hate.
Gay people have just as much a right to express their love as other people
do.
R: Expression of love and marriage are not the same thing.
I have explained my position. There is nothing more to say.
ME: They have every right to have the option to get married as straight
people. The position of "marriage is a sacred institution reserved for men
and women to create life is archaic, homophobic, and discriminatory.
Plenty of lives have been created outside of marriage and homosexuals can
create life. Basically, you are trying to give religious and biblical sanction to
exclude and discriminate against a whole body of people based on their
sexual orientation. That is hate. I've read somewhere that God is LOVE.
.....what was your "undeniable (at least to me) spiritual experience during

your search for truth?"

R: If you want to call it that. I suppose that is the technical definition when
Someone stands his ground on a moral issue. And although this rather
personal in nature, I will say that I have undeniably felt the presence of God.
The feelings I experienced did not come from me. You may dismiss it, but I
know it. It's difficult to explain without sounding like a hippie.
ME: Religion and morality are supposed to be synonymous. The question is
how the morality is applied. You are using hate with your beliefs about gay
marriage. If it is personal, message it to in my [youtube] inbox. I will not
stereotype your experience with such labels as "hippie." It's possible you
could be right, this could help me.
R: There are two things you need to understand about me.
1. I'm Mormon. That means I add the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and
Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price to the Bible as the means to draw
doctrinal correlations from. You can find pages of correlations and clarifications
between these books on mormon.org, but I get the impression you're not
interested in that.
2. God gives spiritual experiences to those who sincerely desire them, and put
forth the effort to gain them.
When I was 16 years old, I had a crisis of my faith in the LDS church. The irony
is, it arose from the issue of gay marriage. As I have said before, several of my
friends are homosexual, and the idea that they were somehow morally inferior
to straight people disturbed me. I had been raised in the church, and I believed
most of the gospel simply because I had never known anything else, and my
parents had taught it to me. So, once I became upset about one issue, the rest
of my faith began to crumble. After some consideration, I decided that there
was one thing I could do to solve both problems - I had to reread the Book of
Mormon and I had to discover its truth for myself. The Book of Mormon is really
the center of the LDS faith; our prophets have described it as the "keystone of
our religion". If it was true, than the church's teachings were true. I planned to
ask God in sincere prayer, as James directs us in the New Testament:
Chapter 1, verses 5 & 6
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and
upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing
wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and
tossed.
God, I decided, could give me the evidence of his truth if he wished, or else I
would leave the church. There was no question in my mind whether I truly

wanted to know; I was so torn up about the whole thing, in fact, that my
performance in school suffered because I had thought for so long and so
exclusively about this. My plan was to read the entire Book of Mormon,
beginning and ending with a prayer for guidance and understanding. And so I
did. Reading every night, it took me about two months to finish the whole thing.
So, on that last night when I finished, I read the words of the prophet Moroni,
who wrote the final advice for those who sought to know the truth:
Moroni 10:4-5
And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask
God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if
ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will
manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
So, I got down on my knees, and I prayed. I asked God to "manifest the truth of"
the things I had read by the power of the Holy Ghost (which essentially is
another name for God's spirit) with all the power of my heart and soul. I can't
remember anything in my life that I cared about as deeply as that prayer that
night. And God responded. He didn't move a mountain - I didn't even hear a
voice - but I felt what can only be described as an enormous, overwhelming
feeling of peace. A calming sense of rightness and joy that seemed to
extinguish all of my other emotions at the time. It didn't come from me. I'd never
felt anything like that in my life. Perhaps my brain just told me what I wanted to
hear - but I don't think so. I don't believe my brain is capable of producing what I
felt. The only times I've been able to feel it again was during activities of a
spiritual nature. That is my "undeniable spiritual experience" that you asked me
about. Now that my faith in the church, and more particularly, the Book of
Mormon was restored, I could accept our stance on homosexuality, which
mostly stems from our ironclad stance on the divine importance of the family
unit. I suggest you read "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" for a clear
and relatively concise explanation of the Mormon church's position. That will
help you understand why I don't hate homosexuals, while firmly believing that
the correct path is for a husband and wife. I hope you read this without bias,
and I wish you well.
ME: First of all, I admire your kindness and sincerity. I chose to open a
discussion with you because although I disagreed with your position, I saw the
polite manner in which you expressed your opinions. You are correct that Id have
no interest in The Book of Mormon and Ill tell you why. The people who live by
the principles and values taught in the book are clear examples of what the
teachings are all about and the different ways of how they are applied to life. It is
tragic indeed, that religion teaches people to be immoral. The church is called to
lead men to the highway of brotherhood and summon them to rise above the
narrow confines of race and sexuality, but it is so often found comforting men in

their prejudices and giving their discriminatory theories of exclusiveness biblical

and religious sanction; God is not interested merely in the freedom and equality
of straight people. God is interested in the freedom and equality of all people
regardless of tribe, race, class, nation, sexuality, gender, etc. The notion that a
person is innately inferior based on their sexuality is appalling. Its a strange
thing how people will use religion often to justify their prejudices. Much like you,
there are many people who have been taught to believe in the morality of immoral
positions. The church has victimized many to harbor ungodly principles, values,
and beliefs.
Pertaining to your spiritual experience, I have no problem with the What in
your experience..the quest, and the praying. My issue is with the Where in
which you sought the What. The Where being The Book of Mormon. You
restricted your search for truth to the very belief system that caused you to search
for truth in the first place. I wouldve extended my search for truth beyond the
restrictive confines of the very book that limited my knowledge of truth to begin
with. The mind cultivates the consciousness, so perhaps had you acquired new
information contrary to what you already knew, rather than a reinterpretation and
new outlook on previous knowledge, your understanding would grow. New
insights and new experiences naturally make for new illustrations.
Your quote.. Now that my faith in the church, and more particularly, the Book
of Mormon was restored, I could accept our stance on homosexuality.
It is interesting to note that you said I could accept Our stance, rather
than I found My stance. Accepting Our stance implies that you finally found
some way to be at peace with someone elses beliefs. Finding My stance would
imply that you acquired the beliefs with your own intuition and experiences rather
than an already existing set of beliefs with a hint of indoctrination and
subservience. It reads as though your Mormon faith is an all or nothing
proposition. I have no need to read the book entitled, The Family: A
Proclamation to the World." Ill tell you why. If the cow is Mormon, then the
milk the cow produces will also be Mormon. Mormons are taught that
homosexuals are sour milk, so I know they arent included in their idea of what
family should be. The family unit is important. Having a healthy relationship
between parents and raising kids in a happy and loving home is important. I
understand that. The problem is gays are not included in your ideal family life.
Can a Mormon household accept and embrace having a gay child? Ive seen a
documentary where a parent completely disowned their child just because of his
sexuality. It seemed as though the parent only loved their child when they were
within the parameters of their religious beliefs. In that documentary, a gay BYU
student told the story of what happened when he came out to his parents. His
mother literally told him that it would have been better if he had been taken from
the Earth than to live and be gay. That doesnt sound like a happy family unit to

me.