D

14/10/2558
DharmaWheelViewtopicDifferencebetweenrecognizingrigpa&realizingemptiness?
ABuddhistdiscussionforumonMahayanaandVajrayanaBuddhism
Search
Search
Advancedsearch
Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Forumrules
Topiclocked
Searchthistopic
Search
318postsPage7of161...4,5,6,7,8,9,10...16
Reportthispost(./report.php?f=48&p=56301)
Replywithquote(./posting.php?mode=quote&f=48&p=56301)
Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

(#p56301)
bydeepbluehumTueSep13,20114:57am
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace upon one another by hitting
each other over the head. Funny.
Isn't every Mahayana practitioner a wannabe guru?

Top

(#p56303)
byusernameTueSep13,20115:05am
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a person
ceases to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the
direct perception of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness"
remains an intellectual sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but
conceptual nevertheless.
The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about
one's state as a working basis for practice, does not require realization
of emptiness as a prerequiste, and can't since if it did, no one could
practice Dzogchen. '
In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify
phenomena, for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is
the principal reason in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on
the basis through tregch, rather the path, tgal. If you are a first stage
bodhisattva and so on, then the four visions in Dzogchen will be very,
very rapid. However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize
emptiness merely through practicing tregch. Of this reason then,
practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5261&p=56372#p56372
1/10
14/10/2558
I will tell you why I don't get this.

You are defining emptiness as something specifically beyond the mind.
But you say the same thing for rigpa.
He is differentiating between recognition and realization too, so two sets of scales, and
saying there are stages from initial recognition all the way to the fourth vision. Actually we
are told the biggest obstacle to both is the didactic dry prison of concepts, to which some are
more prone than others and can never break free from. It's not too difficult even if some
might mention it by accident or even write books on it and not get the point of what has been
told to them for many years and merely repeat texts on achieving it merely conceptually.
Some are just more prsioners of mechanical thinking than others and can not see beyond it.
That is why relaxing is recommended before even trekcho, but then again some have more
anxst than others and all are not the same. We are told not everyone is going to get it in this
life and are accumulating the two for future lifetimes or might take many years if not
decades for realization but also Gurus like Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his son Tsoknyi
Rinpoche insist it is easier than most think. So looks like different circumstances for different
people.
Top

(#p56306)
byalwaysonTueSep13,20115:18am
Namdrol wrote:
I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a person ceases
to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the direct perception
of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness" remains an intellectual
sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but conceptual nevertheless.
The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about one's
state as a working basis for practice, does not require realization of emptiness
as a prerequiste, and can't since if it did, no one could practice Dzogchen. '
In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify phenomena,
for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is the principal reason
in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on the basis through tregch,
rather the path, tgal. If you are a first stage bodhisattva and so on, then the
four visions in Dzogchen will be very, very rapid. However, there is no
2/10
14/10/2558
gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through practicing tregch. Of
this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.
N
IF HERE YOU ARE SAYING:

A. that emptiness is defined as being free from the reifying mind
B. rigpa is knowledge of one's primordial state, which is obviously beyond the mind being
"primordial" as it were.
then
C. Then how the *censored* can you have vidya/knowledge without first realizing emptiness?
That makes no logical sense
Lasteditedbypurplerose(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=86)onTueSep
13,20117:53am,edited1timeintotal.
Reason:removedinappropriateword
Top

(#p56309)
byusernameTueSep13,20116:13am
Reifying and summing up both emptiness and Rigpa (!) in a few words as concepts is like
saying: this sentence is a lie! Specially if saying it is beyond concepts/reifying! These are just
pointers as the actual fruits are more difficult. Thirdly how something is experienced need
not mean knowing what it is in detail and how it functions. Just like a driver might not know
how an engine works. Only a fully enlightened Buddha has complete omniscience. Fourth,
emptiness applies to persons and phenomena BOTH as does the ultimate knowledge/rigpa
where it ultimately dissolves both too. So neither should be limited to one. Fifth, if someone
realized one of the two partly on the stages before full enlightenment, it does not mean he
will get the other fully, otherwise Nagarjuna would have revealed Garab Dorje's message.
However as Longchenpa showed they are in perfect harmony.
Top

(#p56372)
bydeepbluehumTueSep13,20114:52pm
3/10
14/10/2558
Rigpa is really just a translation for vidya. Vidya just means knowing in direct perception. The
mind and phenomena are empty Madhyamaka establishes that through inference. So this kind
of knowing is not vidya. Vidya is recognizing that emptiness with an intuitive inner sight
caused by following the instructions of the guru.
Top

(#p56382)
byalwaysonTueSep13,20115:46pm
of course rigpa is just tibetan for vidya/knowledge.

even wikipedia says that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)
Top

(#p56385)
alwayson wrote:
I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Who writes that stuff?
Top

(#p56388)
byPeroTueSep13,20116:07pm
deepbluehum wrote:
alwayson wrote:
4/10
14/10/2558
I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Who writes that
stuff?
Some if not all of it probably himself.

Top

(#p56390)
Pero wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
alwayson wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa)
I've never seen someone cite to Wikipedia so much for dharma. Who
writes that stuff?
Some if not all of it probably himself.
Lol
Top

(#p56398)
Wikipedia always pops up first or second into Google

Take it up with Google
Obviously Google and Wikipedia made some sort of deal.
13,20116:48pm,edited1timeintotal.
5/10
14/10/2558
Reason:removedinappropriateword
Top

(#p56399)
Did you ever read Brad Warner's Buddhist books?

He just cites Wikipedia for everything
Top

(#p56401)
byPeroTueSep13,20116:43pm
alwayson wrote:
Wikipedia always pops up first or second into Google
Take it up with Google
Obviously Google and Wikipedia made some sort of deal.
Haha true, but I find it useful sometimes.

13,20116:49pm,edited1timeintotal.
Reason:removedinappropriatewordinthequotedsection
Top

(#p56407)
Namdrol wrote:
However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through
practicing tregch. Of this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also
recommended.
N
Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

Based on this comment, realizing emptiness is some special tantric gnosis having to do with
6/10
14/10/2558
the center channel / avadhuti.

Top

(#p56415)
byMalcolmTueSep13,20117:08pm
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely
through practicing tregch. Of this reason then, practices such as
tummo, etc. are also recommended.
N

Based on this comment, realizing emptiness is some special tantric gnosis having
to do with the center channel / avadhuti.
That depends on the practitioner.

Top

(#p56418)
bySnamTueSep13,20117:16pm
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
N

7/10
14/10/2558
in one sense or the other ... or you practice thee channels and so on, or the channels takes
place by them self.
Snam
Top

(#p56423)
byVirgoTueSep13,20117:52pm
alwayson wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
N

Have you ever seen Ice Road Truckers on History? That is my favorite show. Those guys and
ladies drive the ice roads on the Dalton Highway in Alaska, from Fairbanks up to Prudhoe Bay,
where the oil fields are, in Big rigs and deliver huge loads (oversize, etc). The road is
dangerous, covered in ice, and there is no shoulder. There are hardly any passenger cars.
These guys are alone. Towns can be spread out probably 100 miles apart in some cases. It
reaches temperatures of 60 below 0 Fahrenheit. When the truck breaks down, those guys
have to fix it (in those freezing temperatures) by themselves. In many cases, if they can't, and
if no one happens to come by, they could actually freeze, hypothermia setting in. There is no
cell phone reception up there, and the trucks CB radios only go for so many miles. There are
many avalanches just about every year. Many people have died. You make 100 grand just to
start, for a three month season.
Buddhism is like driving a car to a destination. You drive from point A (wherever we are at
now) to point B (Enlightenment). When your car breaks down or you come into treacherous
conditions it becomes very hard, you might even turn back. When those Ice Road Truckers are
out on the roads by themselves, they have to fix the truck themselves. On the road to
Buddhahood, if the car breaks down, ie. the mind runs into major blocks it is good to be able
to fix it. How do you fix it? Being part driver, part mechanic. The mind rides on the winds in
the body, and the winds ride through chanells. Work with the winds, you work with the mind,
and cause it do certain things. That is the high speed way to reach your destination, and
know that you can bypass or fix any problems you encounter. We get to the other side, warm
and cozy. We don't freeze to death trying to help sentient beings.
Malcolm has the typical Rural/SemiRural Amercan attitude: learn how to fix anything, drive
anything, etc. Except he met the profound path. They mesh very well, perfectly in fact.
8/10
14/10/2558
Kevin
Top

(#p56428)
Namdrol wrote:
That depends on the practitioner.
So basically you do realize emptiness with the famous Clear Light / Lumosity????
I'm not saying that is the only way, since you also have the fourth consecration.
Top

(#p56475)
byKarmaDondrupTashiWedSep14,20112:28am
deepbluehum wrote:
A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace upon one another by
hitting each other over the head. Funny.
Good point.
Top

(#p56478)
bydeepbluehumWedSep14,20112:43am

9/10
14/10/2558
deepbluehum wrote:
A bunch of wanna be gurus trying to impose peace upon
one another by hitting each other over the head. Funny.
Good point.
Really?
Wow. Thank you so much.
Top

(#p56502)
byVirgoWedSep14,20116:44am
Recognizing Rigpa bypasses things such as recognizing emptiness, which by it's nature must be
a recognition of mind. That is what one learns from the Sample Wisdom. Coordinating ones
body, speech, and mind with this fact, is the activity. Dzogchen is beyond any other Buddhist
practice, for this very reason. People should get into it, based on that reason alone. The
Dzogchenpas are like the master electricians, master plumbers, and so on, that know tricks
the regular electritions can only dream of. We aren't transforming anything here. We are
dealing with purity, the basis.
Kevin
Top
PreviousNextDisplaypostsfromprevious: Allposts
Ascending
Go
Sortby Posttime
Topiclocked
318postsPage7of161...4,5,6,7,8,9,10...16
ReturntoDzogchen
Jumpto: Dzogchen
Go
Who is online
Usersbrowsingthisforum:lelopa,TomasBenadik,websat11and17guests
2015DavidN.Snyder,Ph.D.,VipassanaFoundationinassociationwithTheDhammaEncyclopedia
DharmaWheelisassociatedwithDhammaWheel.com,DhammaWiki.com,andTheDhamma.com..
Chatroom
>
10/10

D

Diunggah oleh

Informasi Dokumen

Judul Asli

Hak Cipta

Format Tersedia

Bagikan dokumen Ini

Bagikan atau Tanam Dokumen

Opsi Berbagi

Apakah menurut Anda dokumen ini bermanfaat?

Apakah konten ini tidak pantas?

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

D

Diunggah oleh

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

14/10/2558

Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Isn't every Mahayana practitioner a wannabe guru?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

I will tell you why I don't get this.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

IF HERE YOU ARE SAYING:

That makes no logical sense

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

of course rigpa is just tibetan for vidya/knowledge.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Some if not all of it probably himself.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Some if not all of it probably himself.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Wikipedia always pops up first or second into Google

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Did you ever read Brad Warner's Buddhist books?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Haha true, but I find it useful sometimes.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

the center channel / avadhuti.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

That depends on the practitioner.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Ok NOW I am starting to get this.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Isn't every Mahayana practitioner a wannabe guru?

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:

Isn't every Mahayana practitioner a wannabe guru?

Wow. Thank you so much.

Re: Difference between recognizing rigpa & realizing emptiness?

Anda mungkin juga menyukai