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Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54104)

byAstusSatAug27,20119:00am
No, it is a Huayen view of the initial production of bodhicitta, which is the

entrance to the path of accumulation.
It says first bhumi and it means the first bhumi. However, the five paths system is not used
but the 52 stages. That means, for instance, that the buddhanature is realised on the level
of faith (first ten of the 52) in Zongmi's interpretation, or on the level of dwelling (second
ten) in Li Tongxuan's version. A description of the arousal of bodhicitta, following Zongmi's
teachings, is explained in Peixiu's "Exhortation to Resolve on Buddhahood" translated by Ven.
Dharmamitra and is available on his website.
No, since the ten stages are treated the same way. In Chinese Buddhism they
are merely encased within an alternate scheme, but when I say first bhumi, I
mean the first bodhisattva bhumi as described in the Dasabhumika sutra.
That's the point, it is not treated the same way. Here's Buswell's summary based on
Tongxuan's work:
"The ten bhumis are the original foundation of all dharmas. Here the bodhisattva pervades
all dharmas, all directions, and all positions simultaneously. Development before this stage
involved some measure of effort and entailed as well the progressive development of
meritorious practices. By the time the bodhisattva has reached the ten bhumis, however, he
has nothing left to practice and nothing left to achieve. It is a kind of "firmingup" stage at
which all the qualities and achievements attained throughout the previous levels are
matured and allowed to infuse his entire being. He merges with all dharmas without,
however, losing his own identity in the process. This is the stage of the unimpeded
interpenetration of all phenomena the highest expression of spiritual attainment in the
Avatamsaka Sutra and, by implication, in all the Buddhist scriptures."
Top

byHuifengSatAug27,201111:04am
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5102&p=54153#p54153
1/15
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byHuifengSatAug27,201111:04am
Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
No, we just have the usual philosophical sleight of hand I mentioned
above.
The sleight of hand is using a 9th century polemical argument to criticize a 2nd
century conception of the bodhisattva path.
Namdrol wrote:
The point that I am really trying to make is that Indian Mahynists took
their own tradition seriously. For example, Ngrjuna in the Ratnavali
lists in some detail how much merit is required for each of the major
and minor marks, when encouraging the king to cultivate merit.
And three uncalculable eons is not even really a Mahyna number. It is
a number which comes from the earliest ideas about the length of time
it took the bodhisattva to acheive buddhahood.
As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd

century India with our basket of tantras and claim that it's possible to attain
buddhahood in one lifetime, we'd be laughed out of every vihra on the sub
continent.
+1 each for these two points.

Top

byMalcolmSatAug27,20112:08pm
Astus wrote:
No, it is a Huayen view of the initial production of bodhicitta, which is
the entrance to the path of accumulation.
It says first bhumi and it means the first bhumi.
Which first bhumi? The traditional dasabhumi are bhumis 4050 in in the 52 stages scheme
which is a result of taking chapter 15, 21, 22, 25, 26 of the Avatamska to be descriptions or
levels on the bodhisattva path. Chapter 26 however,or the ten stages is the Dasabhumika
stra and that is what is under discussion.
2/15
14/10/2558
No, since the ten stages are treated the same way. In Chinese Buddhism
they are merely encased within an alternate scheme, but when I say
first bhumi, I mean the first bodhisattva bhumi as described in the
Dasabhumika sutra.
That's the point, it is not treated the same way. Here's Buswell's summary based
on Tongxuan's work:
"The ten bhumis are the original foundation of all dharmas. Here the
bodhisattva pervades all dharmas, all directions, and all positions
simultaneously. Development before this stage involved some measure of effort
and entailed as well the progressive development of meritorious practices. By
the time the bodhisattva has reached the ten bhumis, however, he has nothing
left to practice and nothing left to achieve. It is a kind of "firmingup" stage at
which all the qualities and achievements attained throughout the previous
levels are matured and allowed to infuse his entire being. He merges with all
dharmas without, however, losing his own identity in the process. This is the
stage of the unimpeded interpenetration of all phenomena the highest
expression of spiritual attainment in the Avatamsaka Sutra and, by implication,
in all the Buddhist scriptures."
As I said, it is treated in the same way. When a bodhisattva realizes the first bhumi, there is
no more emptiness to realize, all that is left to do is to complete the two accumulations, as I
told you, the ten stages only map qualities, not realization.
LasteditedbyMalcolm(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=638)onSatAug27,
20112:15pm,edited1timeintotal.
Top

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
No, we just have the usual philosophical sleight of hand I mentioned
above.
The sleight of hand is using a 9th century polemical argument to criticize a 2nd
century conception of the bodhisattva path.
3/15
14/10/2558
I am not criticizing a second century concept of the bodhisattva path.
As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd

century India with our basket of tantras and claim that it's possible to attain
buddhahood in one lifetime, we'd be laughed out of every vihra on the sub
continent.
Yes, I have acknowledged this several times. The point I am making is that later Vajraynists
took this limitation seriously and proposed that early Mahyna was by definition a slow
path, requiring incalculable eons to complete because there were no unique methods in
sutrayna to hasten progress on the path.
Since Chan, Huayen, and so on do not add any new insights into the nature of reality, nor do
they add any revolutionary new methods, any claims they make to sudden buddhahood are
merely rhetoric and philosophical trickery.
N
Top

byAstusSatAug27,20113:22pm
"Which first bhumi?"

Only the usual ten bodhisattva stages are the bhumis, the others are faith, dwelling, conduct,
transference, then the stages/bhumis.
"As I said, it is treated in the same way. When a bodhisattva realizes the first bhumi, there is
no more emptiness to realize, all that is left to do is to complete the two accumulations, as
I told you, the ten stages only map qualities, not realization."
As the quote said, there is no realisation on any of those bhumis. The realisation happened
on the 11th level, the first level of dwelling, and the 1st bhumi is the 41st level.
Top

byAstusSatAug27,20113:50pm
"Since Chan, Huayen, and so on do not add any new insights into the nature of reality, nor do
they add any revolutionary new methods, any claims they make to sudden buddhahood are
merely rhetoric and philosophical trickery."
On one hand, Chan can be deduced from the sutras, so it is in no contradiction with the
Buddha's teachings. On the other, the interpretation they make of the Dharma is unique in
4/15
14/10/2558
content, method and style. In content it teaches the sudden enlightenment that
accomplishes buddhahood directly. In method it uses immediate insight into the true nature
of mind. In style it has developed a language of enlightened action, most apparent in koans.
Top

Astus wrote:
The realisation happened on the 11th level, the first level of dwelling, and the
1st bhumi is the 41st level.
If that is so, it is plainly wrong.

Top

bydeepbluehumSatAug27,20115:39pm
Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
So you basically doubt that Virupa, for example, traversed all the paths
and stages in a single lifetime?
I don't see any reason to take mahasiddha hagiographies literally.
Namdrol wrote:
And what about this Vajrayna tenet makes it "provisional"?
Look at the numbers Namdrol. Any direct equivalency is absurd on the face of
it.
This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please allow a

possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life. Please consider that the powers
gained on the bhumis as described in sutras are inspirational. The actual realizations and
samadhis that happen on the bhumis or that a buddha has are completely beyond description
and can only be referenced metaphorically. The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is
possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.
Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the obstacles to
5/15
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omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a
long time, then sometime around death wisdom throws off the veil of the elements.
Vajrayana has methods that make this certain. Chan does this potentially but without the
specific method, it won't be as certain.
Top

Astus wrote:
In content it teaches the sudden enlightenment that accomplishes buddhahood
directly.
One can say whatever one likes For example, consider the statement "Jesus teaches a
method of direct buddhahood, far superior to anything taught by any other Buddha or
tradition". Who can refute this if all statements about Buddhism are to be considered valid? In
other words, such claims are just so much hot air without reasons.
As we have seen, there is no precedent in Indian Buddhism from the 1st century BCE to the
time supposedly Bodhidharma visited China the the kind of claims some Chan masters make.
In method it uses immediate insight into the true nature of mind.
As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full buddhahood,
then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.
N
Top

byJnanaSatAug27,20117:43pm
deepbluehum wrote:
This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please
allow a possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life. Please
consider that the powers gained on the bhumis as described in sutras are
inspirational. The actual realizations and samadhis that happen on the bhumis
or that a buddha has are completely beyond description and can only be
referenced metaphorically. The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible
even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.
6/15
14/10/2558
Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the

obstacles to omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in
nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a long time, then sometime around death
wisdom throws off the veil of the elements. Vajrayana has methods that make
this certain. Chan does this potentially but without the specific method, it
won't be as certain.
You've reemphasized my previous point: Every Mahyna tradition is faith based. One of the
glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith based, visionary tradition, and
trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this began in India, with proofs of omniscience and
so on. But that doesn't legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the
Chinese and Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually
every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their tradition's self
proclaimed superiority.
Top

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion.
Please allow a possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life.
Please consider that the powers gained on the bhumis as described in
sutras are inspirational. The actual realizations and samadhis that
happen on the bhumis or that a buddha has are completely beyond
description and can only be referenced metaphorically. The realization
of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does
not possess this method. Vajrayana does.
Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because
the obstacles to omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in
nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a long time, then sometime around
death wisdom throws off the veil of the elements. Vajrayana has
methods that make this certain. Chan does this potentially but without
the specific method, it won't be as certain.
You've reemphasized my previous point: Every Mahyna tradition is faith

based. One of the glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith
based, visionary tradition, and trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this
began in India, with proofs of omniscience and so on. But that doesn't
legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the Chinese and
Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually
every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their
tradition's selfproclaimed superiority.
We are are not really talking Tibetan Buddhism here. We are talking about Chan Buddhism
and Indian Mahyna. Your nonsequitors about Vajrayna are a distracting waste of time.
7/15
14/10/2558
N
Top

I also just wanted to point out something I feel matters a great deal. There is no difference
between what Chan and Vajrayana say emptiness is. Where the disputes arise is when either
side posits what a buddha is and how it is attained. Namdrol is accurate in pointing out the
key point is maintaining postmeditation equipoise. This is what merit is really about, to give
up grasping altogether.
Top

Jnana wrote:
You've reemphasized my previous point: Every Mahyna tradition is faith
based. One of the glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith
based, visionary tradition, and trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this
began in India, with proofs of omniscience and so on. But that doesn't
legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the Chinese and
Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually
every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their
tradition's selfproclaimed superiority.
I don't think I said Mahayana is faith based or visionary. I think it is reason and experience
based. But the results of the reasoning are way outside of the scope of reason. It is like
notion of the parabolic exponential extrapolation. When change goes vertical on the graph,
the notion of acceleration or increase go to infinity. The reasoning of buddha's qualities are
just like that. Though we cannot understand or comprehend infinite wisdom, we can
comprehend the path to get there, and we can understand infinite wisdom is infinite wisdom.
We can understand what causes limitations and we can understand how to overcome them.
Faith does not need reason. Buddhism does.
Top

Namdrol wrote:
As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full
buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.
8/15
14/10/2558
This is just another lame gradualist argument.

Top

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for
full buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But
they are not.
And this is just another petulant complaint lacking substance and reasoning.
Top

deepbluehum wrote:
The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week.
Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.
There is no "method" for entering nonconceptual gnosis. There is either recognition or non
recognition. This is the definitive teaching of both sutra and tantra.
Top

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a
week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.
There is no "method" for entering nonconceptual gnosis. There is either

9/15
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recognition or nonrecognition. This is the definitive teaching of both sutra and

tantra.
Let's say you are introduced to the nature of mind and appearance like this: "When your eye
contacts light and form a feeling arises. You grasp this feeling as real, then you enjoy or
dislike this feeling, further clinging to it. To realize the nature of mind you must search this
feeling to discover if it has any color or shape. Once you are convinced it does not, you rest
in the state of nonseeing. This is buddha."
Now just focusing on the nature of appearance for a moment, just having this experience is
great merit and a pivotal turn of events in one's contemplative life. But it is not sufficient to
never ever grasping appearances as real again. One will have to practice one appearance
after another until one becomes habituated to letting go into the nature of emptiness.
Let's just say Chan's method of introducing is equivalent to this. I don't think so. I think such
an introduction is special to Vajrayana, but it could be in theory. This bit is all Chan would
have, and it is not enough just to have this kind of experience. This experience alone is not
buddhahood, because the force of our habits will have us grasping again. A buddha would
have totally let go and never grasped again. Of course, theoretically, anyone can see
emptiness and understand intellectually that it is supreme, but bringing it down into a 24/7
commitment requires great discipline. The discipline is almost superhuman unless you have
the right method.
It is this very important moment when the practice of mandala offering becomes very crucial.
Or there are other secretive teachings involving channels and winds. The main point is one
has an inner experience of blissemptiness that makes letting go of externals very easy.
Again, this is not a point of faith, but yogic direct knowledge. The more powerful methods
make more powerful blissemptiness experiences. That everything abides nowhere yet
depends on everything else is something you can realize from just reading this sentence, but
it is very difficult to use that knowledge to overcome all your negative emotions. You can, but
it is not practical. All the vajrayana methods deal with this practical problem.
Top

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was
sufficient for full buddhahood, then first stage
bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.
10/15
14/10/2558
And this is just another petulant complaint lacking substance and reasoning.
Lama Shang:
In the instant that you realize your own mind,
all good qualities without exception,
are simultaneously completed without having to accomplish them.
Je Gampopa:
When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in
not included in this path. It includes going for refuge because the Naga King Anavatapta
Requested Sutra says:
A bodhisattva knows all phenomena to be without self, without sentient beings, without
life, without person. Like the Tathagata, the perfect nonseeingnot being form, not
being characterized, not being phenomenais going to the Buddha for refuge with an
unconfused mind.
That which is the phenomenaassuch of the Tathagata is the allpervading Dharma
sphere. That which is the allpervading Dharma sphere is said to pervade all phenomena.
Thus, it is seeing the allpervading Dharma sphere. To see that is going to the Dharma for
refuge with an unconfused mind.
One who meditates upon the uncompounded allpervading Dharma sphere and depends
upon the uncompounded vehicle of the Hearers and is not concerned with the duality of
compound and uncompound goes to the Sangha for refuge with an unconfused mind.
Cultivation of bodhicitta is also included. The Great Development of the Enlightened Mind
Sutra says:
Kashyapa, all phenomena are like space, without characteristics, are completely pure
clear light from the beginning. This is what is said to be the cultivation of bodhicitta.
Visualization of the deity and the recitation of mantras are also said to be complete when
this [the realization of emptiness] exists. The Hevajra Tantra says:
There is neither meditation nor meditator
The deity does not exist and the mantras also have no existence
In the nature free from all elaboration,
Dwell perfectly all the deities and their mantrasVairocana,
Aksobhya, Amoghasiddhi, Ratnasambhava, Amitabha, Vajrasattva.
The Glorious Great Buddhas' Union with Perfected Dakinis Uttaratantra says:
Realization will not arise from cast images and so forth. However, if one makes energetic
effort in bodhicitta, from that the yogin will become the deity.
The Great Secret Yogatantra Diamond Summit says:
The characteristic of all mantras is the mind of all Buddhas because it is the method of
accomplishing the essence of phenomena. The characteristic of mantras is explained as
being properly endowed with the allpervading Dharma sphere.
11/15
14/10/2558
Performing fireoffering rituals is also included in this. The King of Secret Nectar Tantra
says:
Why is it the fireoffering ritual? It is the fireoffering ritual because it burns conceptual
thought and grants ultimate attainment. Burning wood and so forth is not the real fire
offering ritual.
Even the paththe six perfectionsis complete in this. The Vajra Meditative Absorption
Sutra says:
When one has not moved from emptiness, the six perfections are included.
The Brahma VisesaantiRequested Sutra says:
Not to think is generosity. Not to dwell within differentiation is moral ethics. Not to
distinguish is patience. Freedom from acceptance and rejection is perseverance.
Nonattachment is meditative concentration. Nonconceptual thought is wisdom awareness.
The Essence of the Earth Sutra says:
The wise one who meditates upon the emptiness of phenomena neither abides in, nor is
supported by, all the world. Not abiding in all existence, the perfectly virtuous moral
ethics are wellguarded.
The same sutra says:
All phenomena are of one taste since emptiness is without characteristics. The mind
neither abides in nor is attached to anything at all. This patience will be greatly
beneficial. The wise one, having begun to act with perseverance, casts all attachments to
a distance. His mind neither abides in nor is attached to anything at all. This is called the
perfectly meritorious field. For the benefit and happiness of all sentient beings,
meditative stabilization is practiced and the heavy burden put down. Completely
removing all afflictions is the characteristic of the perfectly wise one.
Doing prostrations is also included in this. The Precious Sky Sutra says:
Just like water poured into water, like butter stirred into butter, perfectly seeing this
selfaware primordial wisdom by oneself constitutes prostrations.
It is also offering if one has this. The Meeting of Father and Son Sutra says:
One who relies upon the emptiness of phenomena and aspires to the field of Buddha is
offering to the Teacher. This is unsurpassed offering.
The King of Secret Nectar Tantra says:
The offering of the ultimate meaning pleases the Buddha. He is not delighted with
offerings of incense and so forth. Softening one's mind is the great offering which delights
Buddha.
Again, if one is endowed with this, it is also the very purification of evil deeds. The
Completely Pure Karma Sutra says:
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One who desires confession should sit straight and look at the perfect meaning. Properly
looking at perfection is the supreme regret and awakening.
The guarding of moral ethics and samaya is also included in this meaning. The Son of the
Gods, SusthitamatiRequested Sutra says:
The one who does not have the arrogance of having vows or not has the moral ethics of
nirvana. This is completely pure moral ethics.
And from the Ten Wheels Sutra:
Although one remains at home and does not cut either their hair or beard, does not even
wear Dharmarobes, and has not even received precepts of moral ethics, such a oneby
being endowed with the sublime truth of phenomenashould be known as the ultimate
bhikshu.
Listening, reflecting, and meditating are also encompassed in this meaning. The
Completely NonAbiding Tantra says:
If one has eaten the food of uncontrived nature, one will satisfy all the tenets without
exception. Childish beings, not having realized this, depend upon terms and words.
Everything is a characteristic of one's mind.
Saraha also says:
This is reading, this is comprehending, this is meditating, this is also learning
commentaries by heart. There does not exist any view which could indicate this.
Torma cakes and daily Dharma rituals are also included in this meaning. The King of Secret
Nectar Tantra says:
Offerings, torma and so forth, all the various activitiesby discovering the thatness of
the mind, everything is definitely included here.
In that case, if all these are included in meditating on only the essence or the mindas
such, why do there appear teachings on so many graduated methods? It is for the purpose
of leading all those sentient beings of little fortune, who are ignorant in the ultimate
nature. The Ornament of the Arising Wisdom says:
That which has been explained as the relation between cause and condition and also
entering into the different stagesthis all has been taught as a method to those who are
ignorant. Concerning this spontaneously established dharma, why would one need gradual
training?
The Arisal of the View of Supreme Happiness says:
Thus, the selfnature is like the sky. I have obtained the selfnature which is permanently
free.
The Precious Sky Sutra says:
As long as one has not entered into the ocean of the allpervading Dharma sphere, there
are indeed distinct paths and levels. Having gone into the ocean of the allpervading
Dharma sphere, there is not the slightest level or path to traverse.
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Saraha:
If youre not satisfied in your practice,
how will meditation get you free?
What use are lamps? What use is offered food?
What is mantra practice supposed to do?
No tantra, no mantra, no reflection or recollection
Hey, fool! All this is the cause of error.
Mind is unstaineddont taint it with meditation;
youre living in bliss: dont torment yourself.
Top

deepbluehum wrote:
Let's just say Chan's method of introducing is equivalent to this. I don't think so.
I think such an introduction is special to Vajrayana
With Chan, everything is a direct introduction. Every moment of every experience.
deepbluehum wrote:
Or there are other secretive teachings involving channels and winds. The main
point is one has an inner experience of blissemptiness that makes letting go of
externals very easy. Again, this is not a point of faith, but yogic direct
knowledge. The more powerful methods make more powerful blissemptiness
experiences.
Saraha:
Dont hold your breath and think on yourself;
wretched yogin, dont focus in on the tip of your nose.
Hey, fool! Savor yourself fully in the innate;
dont just wander around, bound by the lines of existence.
Top

Jnana wrote:
Snip citation blizzard
14/15
14/10/2558
These don't say anything, absent contextualized reasoning and explanation. They certainly
don't mean that the path of seeing is buddhahood.
N
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14/10/2558

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54104)

No, it is a Huayen view of the initial production of bodhicitta, which is the

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54116)

As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd

+1 each for these two points.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54126)

It says first bhumi and it means the first bhumi.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54127)

I am not criticizing a second century concept of the bodhisattva path.

As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54139)

"Which first bhumi?"

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54141)

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54150)

If that is so, it is plainly wrong.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54153)

I don't see any reason to take mahasiddha hagiographies literally.

This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please allow a

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54157)

In method it uses immediate insight into the true nature of mind.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54175)

Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54179)

You've reemphasized my previous point: Every Mahyna tradition is faith

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54181)

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54182)

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54183)

This is just another lame gradualist argument.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54186)

This is just another lame gradualist argument.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54187)

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54191)

There is no "method" for entering nonconceptual gnosis. There is either

recognition or nonrecognition. This is the definitive teaching of both sutra and

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54193)

This is just another lame gradualist argument.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54194)

With Chan, everything is a direct introduction. Every moment of every experience.

Re: Buddhahood in Chan (#p54197)

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