API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

David Flight
DOW CHEMICAL

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

Proposed
Change

Editorial

Some of the Imperial dimensions do not have a Metric

equivalent as the rest do.

5.8.1.2

Technical

Overall it is not feasible or warrented to MT or PT all

temp or permanent attachements for non Group IV,
IVA, V and VI materials. This will add substainal cost
and time to projects. I know of no cases of underbead
cracking in groups I, II, III or IIIA.

(Affirmative)
Tad Broad
Fisher Tank
Company
(Negative)

section 5.8.1.2.a. the term "provide external

reinforcement from tank shell" is new to me and
unclear why a 12" pad would be required.

5.8.1.2.a. "In addtion, the

external permanent plate
thickness shall be the smaller of
1/2" or the shell course
thickness. The edge of any
permanent attachment welds
should be at least..." May also
want to reference requirements
of section 5.8.11.4 for pads over
seams.
7.2.3.5 "the welds of permanent
attachments ()and areas where
temporary attachments are
removed, shall be examined
visually. Groups IV, IVA, V & VI
shall also be tested by either the
MT or PT method...

David Meaux

5.8.1.2

Technical

Fisher Tank
Company
(Negative)

David Meaux

5.8.1.2.a

Technical

The proposal states that the concern is for underbead

cracking when using Class IV, IVA, V, and VI materials.
The proposed changes, however, impose the reason
for this concern on all classes of materials. Perhaps
the reason why the Standard omitted spacing
requirements for Class I, II, and III materials was
because that the concern for underbead cracking was
not present in these materials. In my opinion, to totally
impose the same spacing requirements upon all
classes of materials is excessively conservative. The
only exception might be regarding the first course.

Do not delete the statement

below (as proposed):

I question the technical basis for the addition of the

Leave out this statement or

5.8.1.2 When attachments are

made to shell courses of material
in Group IV, IVA, V, or VI,

The group can discuss whether

there are technically sound
reasons to possibly include the
bottom course in all or some of
the lower classes of materials.
page 1 of 11

API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

following statement:

Fisher Tank
Company
(Negative)

David Meaux

Proposal:

If a permanent plate is intended to provide external

reinforcement from the tank shell, the minimum
external plate size shall be no less than 12 inches in
dimension (i.e. the external plate may be circular,
oblong, square, or rectangular in shape with a square
or rectangular plate having a minimum radius of 2
inches on all four corners). The plate shall be rolled to
the outside tank radius.

provide the technical basis

justifying the 12" dimension. I
presume that the proposed
requirement that the plate be
rolled to the outside tank radius
is due to the 12" size, however,
we can discuss.

5.8.1.2.a

Editorial

The words "or not to exceed" are unnecesary....be the

smaller of or not to exceed the shell course
thickness, whichever is less

....be the smaller of or the

shell course thickness, whichever
is less

7.2.3.5

Technical

The proposed added requirement to require additional

NDE methods of examination on all attachments,
permanent and temporary, for Class I, II, and III
materials in my opinion, is overly conservative

7.2.3.5 Permanent and

temporary attachments (see
7.2.1.10 for information on shellto-bottom welds) shall be welded
with low-hydrogen electrodes.
The welds of permanent
attachments (not including shellto-bottom welds) and areas
where temporary attachments
are removed, shall be examined
visually. For Class IV, IVA, V, and
VI materials, additional NDE
methods, either the magnetic
particle method or by the liquid
penetrant method shall be
used(see 8.2, 8.4, or 8.5 for the
appropriate inspection criteria).
When welding to Group IV, IVA,
V, and VI materials both
permanent and temporary
attachments shall be welded in
accordance with a procedure,

Fisher Tank
Company
(Negative)
David Meaux
Fisher Tank
Company
(Negative)

page 2 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

that minimizes the potential for

underbead cracking.
Nelson Acosta
HMT Inspection

Para.
7.2.3.5

Editorial

Delete "comma" in last sentence.

5.8.1.2

Technical

The indication is that there is a concern about

movement of the shell under hydrostatic loading for all
sizes of tanks. The requirements would apply even to a
10' diameter tank. The concern is for large diameter
tanks and some of these requirements should not
apply to smaller tanks.

5.8.1.2.a

Technical

This states that a minimum of a 12" x 12" repad is

required for all repads. The thickness is the thinner of
1/2" or the thickness of the shell. If you have a shell
with 1/2" thickness and a 2x2 angle attached to a
repad welded to that shell, the repad would be 1/2"
thick 12" x 12". If the weld on the pad is closer than 3"
to the horizontal seam, then you have to move the pad
or increase the pad size by almost 6" in height to meet
the weld spacing requirements. If the repad is not
required for reinforcing the shell for loadings but only
to meet some other requirement, does the repad have
to meet the size and thickness requirements? Based
on the requirements in this section all tanks of all sizes
and materials with a spiral stairway might have to have
the stairway attached to an inside stringer with
standoffs from the shell. The stair treads could not be
welded directly to the shell because you could not
maintain the weld spacing requirements. A pad could
not be welded to the shell because you could not
maintain the 45 degree angle of incidence to both the
horizontal and vertical shell joints that will be crossed.
There also is the requirement that the welds be at least
6" from the weld on a nozzle repad even though for an
Appendix A tank most weld requirements are 2.5 times
the shell thickness. This seems to be adding

(Affirmative)
Jimmy Schroeder
Innovative Tank
Solutions, LLC
(Negative)
Jimmy Schroeder
Innovative Tank
Solutions, LLC
(Negative)

".... shall be welded in

accordance with a procedure that
minimizes the potential for
underbead cracking."

page 3 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

additional burdens on small tanks.

Since many times customers do not locate such things

as pipe support clips until late in the project, the cost
impact to come back and do additional inspection
requirements due to clips or pads crossing seams
could be significant.
Jimmy Schroeder

7,2,3,5

Technical

The requirement that all permanent and temporary

attachments be welded with low hydrogen electrode
and that they all be inspected not only visually but also
with magnetic particle method or liquid penetrant
method is excessive when you are dealing with smaller
tanks. Tanks fabricated from Group I steel is typically
welded with E6010 rod not with low hydrogen rod. This
should not be applied in this manner to these type of
tanks. It causes increased cost that is not necessary.

Entire
Section

Technical

If welding of butt welded pressure containing parts can

be welded without the use of low hydrogen electodes,
then there is no reason for attachments to be welded
with low hydrogen.

Innovative Tank
Solutions, LLC
(Negative)

Doug Bayles
Inserv Integrated
Service Company
LLC

I would recommend leaving

these sections as they currently
exist in the standard.

(Negative)
Also, the testing requirements for temporary or
permanent attachments will increase the cost of tanks
that can be erected with Group I, II or III materials and
not neccesarily improve the quality of the finished tank.
Earl Crochet

Editorial

Kinder Morgan
Terminals

As balloted "When welding to Group IV, IVA, V, and VI

materials both permanent and temporary attachments
shall be welded in accordance with a procedure, that
minimizes the potential for underbead cracking."

(Affirmative)
Remove the comma from after the word "procedure".
Laurence Foster

8.5.1.2

Editorial

The paragraph is too long and difficult to read.

Break it up into multiple sections

like a)weld spacing, b)rolling, c)
page 4 of 11

API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

Marathon Oil
Company LLC

crossing welds and d) splices.

Renumber b) and c).

(Negative)
Laurence Foster

5.8.1.2.a

Technical

Shaping of plates is dependant on thickness and

radius.

7.2.3.5

Technical

I don't believe a good argument is made in the

background secton on why rules are necessary for
Groups I, II, III, and IIIA. The subgroup should
consider whether this change is necessary.

5.8.1.2

Technical

I do not feel there is justification to expand this spacing

requirement to all materials and stress levels.

7.2.3.5

Technical

As stated the attachments shall be made using lowhydrogen electrodes only. This would lead one to
believe that only stick (shielded metal arc welding or
SMAW)is allowed for such attachments. I believe that
both hard wire (gas metal arc welding or GMAW) and
flux cored wire (flux core arc welding or FCAW) are
used extensively in field welds and should be included
here.

Change to the following "...shall

be welded with low-hydrogen
electrodes when using the
manual welding process, and
either the appropriate solid or flux
cored wires when using the semiautomatic welding process. The
wire chosen shall be based upon
compatability with the base
metals being joined."

5.8.1.2.a

Editorial

Suggest this section be revised to clarify as per below

wording. Clarification of the section equivalent to the
wording suggested below will resolve my negative
ballot.

a)
Permanent
attachments may be welded
directly to the shell with fillet
welds having a maximum leg
dimension of 13 mm (1/2 in.). If
a permanent plate is intended to
provide external reinforcement of

Marathon Oil
Company LLC

Replaced "the plate shall be

rolled to the outside tank radius"
with "Refer to Figure 6-1 for
shaping of plates."

(Negative)
Laurence Foster
Marathon Oil
Company LLC
(Negative)
Kenneth Erdmann
Matrix Service
Company
(Negative)
James McBride
Petrex, Inc.
(Affirmative)

John Lieb
Tank Industry
Consultants, Inc.
(Negative)

page 5 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

the tank shell, the minimum

external plate width or length
dimension shall be 12 inches.
The external plate may be
circular, oblong, square, or
rectangular in shape. Square or
rectangular plates shall have a
minimum radius of 2 inches on all
four corners, except for corners
of a plate that abuts the tank
bottom plate, top angle or a shell
stiffener. The plate shall be
rolled to the outside tank radius.
In addition, the external
permanent plate thickness shall
be the lesser of or the shell
course thickness. The edge of
any permanent attachment weld
shall be at least 75 mm (3 in.)
from the horizontal joint of the
shell and at least 150 mm (6 in.)
from the vertical joint, insert-plate
joints, or reinforcing-plate fillet
welds. Permanent attachment
welds may cross shell horizontal
or vertical butt welds, providing
the welds are continuous within
these limits and the angle of
incidence between the two welds
is greater than or equal to 45
degrees. Additionally, any splice
weld in the permanent
attachment shall be located a
minimum of 150 mm (6 in.) from
any shell weld unless the splice
weld is prevented from
intersecting the shell weld by
acceptable modifications to the
attachment.
page 6 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

John Lieb

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

5.8.1.2.a

Editorial

Tank Industry
Consultants, Inc.
(Negative)

Suggest this section be revised to clarify as per below

wording. Clarification of the section equivalent to the
wording suggested below will resolve my negative
ballot.

a)
Permanent
attachments may be welded
directly to the shell with fillet
welds having a maximum leg
dimension of 13 mm (1/2 in.). If
a permanent plate is intended to
provide external reinforcement of
the tank shell, the minimum
external plate width or length
dimension shall be 12 inches.
The external plate may be
circular, oblong, square, or
rectangular in shape. Square or
rectangular plates shall have a
minimum radius of 2 inches on all
four corners, except for corners
of a plate that abuts the tank
bottom plate, top angle or a shell
stiffener. The plate shall be
rolled to the outside tank radius.
In addition, the external
permanent plate thickness shall
be the lesser of or the shell
course thickness. The edge of
any permanent attachment weld
shall be at least 75 mm (3 in.)
from the horizontal joint of the
shell and at least 150 mm (6 in.)
from the vertical joint, insert-plate
joints, or reinforcing-plate fillet
welds. Permanent attachment
welds may cross shell horizontal
or vertical butt welds, providing
the welds are continuous within
these limits and the angle of
incidence between the two welds
is greater than or equal to 45
degrees. Additionally, any splice
weld in the permanent
page 7 of 11

API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

attachment shall be located a

minimum of 150 mm (6 in.) from
any shell weld unless the splice
weld is prevented from
intersecting the shell weld by
acceptable modifications to the
attachment.
Randy Kissell

5.8.1.2

Editorial

We need to metricate all dimensions.

change

TGB Partnership
(Affirmative)

no less than 12 inches in

dimension (i.e. the external plate
may be circular, oblong, square,
or rectangular in shape with a
square or rectangular plate
having a minimum radius of 2
inches on all four corners).

to

no less than 300 mm (12 in.) in

dimension (i.e. the external plate
may be circular, oblong, square,
or rectangular in shape with a
square or rectangular plate
having a minimum radius of 50
mm (2 in.) on all four corners).
John Mooney

5.8.1.2.a

Editorial

If a permanent plate is intended to provide external

reinforcement from the tank shell, the minimum.....

Technical

1) This seems to pertain only to plates welded to the

outside of the tank shell. Should these requirements
also apply to permanent attachment plates welded to
the inside of the tank? or are permanent attachment
plates on the tank inside excempt from these

(Affirmative)
David
Rosenkrantz
Access
Engineering, LLC

"from" should be "for"

page 8 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

requirements?

(YetToVote)

2) I do not understand what "from the tank shell"

means in the sentence "If a permanent plate is
intended to provide external reinforcement from the
tank shell, the ..."

3) The sentence describing weld spacing says that the

permanent attachment welds shall be 3" from
horizontal shell joints but need to be 6" from insert
plate joints. Since insert plate joints often (almost
always?) include horizontal joints, this has lead to
confusion. Is it possible to clarify this?
Ronald Bailey

Technical

I DISAGREE WITH EXPANDING SUB PAR 7.2.3.5 TO

INCLUDE GROUPS I-IIIA MATERIALS.I WAS
INVOLVED IN THE ORIGINAL CREATION OF THIS
PAR AND AGREED WITH OTHERS THAT THIS
ISSUE IS A STRESS/STRAIN ISSUE THAT SHOULD
ONLY APPLY TO THE "HIGHER STRENGTH"
STEELS.

Technical

Negative comments:

Negative comments:

1.
In the background section, the wording
doesnt make sense. Current proposal wording:
Currently API 650 does not address and also
include the possibility of underbead cracking on
Groups IV, IVA, V and VI materials.

1.

American Tank &

Vessel, Inc.
(Negative)

Steven Adolphsen
CBI Services
(NonVoter)

Suggested wording:
2.
API has NDE rules that limit the size of the
underbead. What is the justification for making API
more stringent (Has there been significant increase in
cracking in Groups I,II AND III?

Suggested wording:
Currently API 650 does not
address and also include the
possibility of underbead cracking
on Groups (CHANGE IV, IVA, V
and VI to read ) I, II , AND III
materials.

Affirmative comment:
1.

In purpose section,
page 9 of 11

API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

Affirmative comment:
1.
In purpose section, change code to read
Standard.

Larry Hiner

General

Technical

Chicago Bridge &

Iron
Company(CB&I)

Negative - Weld spacing requirements for mild carbon

steel is not needed, however, if provided, need not be
as restrictive as for group IV thru VI materials.

General

Technical

Affirmative - As an extension to this agenda item Weld spacing criteria for Appendix S tanks
attachments should be the same as for basic group I
thru IIIA materials. If the attachment weld spacing for
group I thru IIIA materials is added, Appendix S in API
650, 620, and 653 should be comparable.

General

Technical

Affirmative - As an extension to this agenda item attachment weld spacing criteria for Appendix X tanks
attachments should be the same as for basic group IV
thru VIA materials.

5.8.1.2.a

Technical

I do not agree with this change. If we think that we

Chicago Bridge &

Iron
Company(CB&I)
(NonVoter)
Larry Hiner

change code to read

Standard.

If weld spacing must be provided:

For shell material Groups I, II, III,

or IIIA, the edge of any
permanent attachment welds
shall preferably be 75 mm (3 in.)
from each other, any shell joint,
insert-plate joints, or reinforcingplate fillet welds. Otherwise, the
minimum distance between weld
edges may be reduced to 25 mm
(1 in.) provided undercut is
eliminated at locations where the
distance is less than 50 mm (2
in.)

(NonVoter)

Larry Hiner

Date: December 30, 2015

Chicago Bridge &

Iron
Company(CB&I)
(NonVoter)
Douglas Miller

page 10 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003

API Ballot Comments and Resolution

Ballot: 650-653Rev0 - Weld Spacing for

Permanent Attachments
1
Voter Name
(Vote)

Proposal:

Ballot ID:
1632

Date: December 30, 2015

Clause No./
Subclause
No./Annex
(e.g. 3.1)

Type of
Comment

Comment (justification for change) by the Voting Member

Proposed change by the Voting

Member

Comment Resolution

Chicago Bridge &

Iron
Company(CB&I)

must add some limits for materials I to III, then the

spacings could certainly be smaller in these lower
strength materials than for group IV to VI.

(Negative)
Douglas Miller

5.8.1.2.a

Technical

Regarding the new requirements for shape and

dimensions of structural pad plates; Why do we need
such a large minimum size of 12? API 653 9.3.1.7
requires only 4.

7.2.3.5

Technical

Similarly, I dont agree that we need to mandate low

hydrogen electrode and MT for attachments to group I
to III plate. Long standing practice uses E6010 even
on the shell verts up to 1/2 thick, per section 7.2.1.10.
Why would we demand something better for
attachment welds?

Chicago Bridge &

Iron
Company(CB&I)
(Negative)
Douglas Miller
Chicago Bridge &
Iron
Company(CB&I)
(Negative)

page 11 of 11
API electronic balloting template/version April 2003