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Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery

DavidW

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom

Message 1 of 6
28 December 2007 at 5:37am | IP Logged

I'm reader of your posts, from which I've learnt a lot and
adopted many ideas. I'm a 22 year old engineering
university student, and I'm currently studying in Malaysia
Joined 1609 days ago
200 posts - 47 votes on an exchange program from the UK. I would like you to
Speaks: English*, comment on my study plan. Please excuse the long post,
I know you dont have a lot of time.
Spanish, French,
Italian, Persian,
Here's what I've managed so far:
Malay
Studies: Russian,
From the Romance languages I know Spanish the best, a
Arabic (Written),
couple of years ago I spent the best part of a year in
Portuguese, German, Costa Rica speaking the language for several hours a day
Urdu
in a social context, and last year I read lots of

newspapers and a few novels as part of a university

module. Although I would like to read more literature and
expand my vocabulary further, it's rare that I'm short of
words. I spent a lot of time last year working on French,
reading from many sources, and working with different
courses. I have a good command but I find my active
vocabulary is lacking. I think more real exposure is called
for. Then comes Italian, I used a linguaphone course and
the assimil advanced course, but, I have had only a little
real interaction with the language. Portuguese is similar.
I have studied Russian, which I gave a great deal of time,
over a thousand hours over a couple of years, but
unfortunately not used the time to the greatest
advantage. Last Christmas I spent a month in Russia, in
an intensive language course. My active oral ability was
very low on arriving, but on leaving it was improved, but
still lacking. This summer I spend about 2-3 hours a day
for two months using 'lingnet' Gloss online bilingual texts

with audio, and my reading ability has improved

somewhat.
Arabic I have been giving most of my attention recently, I
have shadowed the linguaphone course intensively, as
described in your posts, and now I can 'play' most of the
dialogs in my head. I am now finishing 'Elementary
Modern Standard Arabic' audio-lingual course, of which I
have practiced mostly with the recorded oral exercises,
and have left the written exercises, as I feel my time is
better spent. I am also using 'Assimil Tome 2', although,
more as a reader than really shadowing. Telenovelas
dubbed in MSA are quickly becoming within my grasp. I
think if I could broaden my vocabulary by a couple of
thousand words I could claim basic fluency.
Persian is the most recent language Ive started, I'm
nearly done with the Assimil course, and I will have,
hopefully, many opportunities to talk with Iranian friends
on campus. I like the language, and it has been helped
along by my Arabic.
I would like eventually to bring my Arabic, Russian and
Persian up to a good conversational level. I would also to
reach a level of 'basic fluency' in Urdu, German, SerboCroat and Polish, which, I think, once I improve upon the
languages I know already, should not present many great
difficulties. I understand from your posts Urdu has many
loan words from Persian and Arabic, and the Slavonic
languages are quite closely related.
I am undecided as whether to attempt any Mandarin,
although if I did, I would primarily be interested reaching
a spoken level of basic fluency, Im not sure I would
really read enough Chinese to really justify learning all
the characters. I dont know how many hours of study
that would take. From your comments I understand it
would take comparatively more time to reach a given
level that for Arabic, although, ignoring the written
language is this still true? I have heard that the spoken
language is actually quite easy.
The coming semester I will have about 4 months during
which I can put aside about 5 hours for language study a
day, including weekends. Im planning on:
1hr/day Russian w/ Gloss bilingual texts w/audio. **
1hr/day Arabic using bilingual texts.
30mins/day Persian. I will have the chance to talk with
Iranian friends on campus also.
Possibly: 3hrs/day Mandarin (using the Defense
Language Institute/FSI course)
In the summer I will have a couple of months available

during which I might be able to do a language course at a

university or language school in China, Moscow, or Egypt.
A lot of Mandarin is spoken here is Malaysia, also.
Next academic year (~6 months) I plan to be shadowing
Assimil courses:
2hrs/day German
45mins /day Serbo-Croat
45mins /day Polish
1:30hr/day Hindi/Urdu
I am trying to find ways to increase the number of hours
I can study a day. I have been unsuccessful in trying to
change my sleeping habits, and my schedule is always all
over the place. It is a source of frustration.
After this, some languages will still be in need of more
work, surely. Hopefully Ill have more time available to
travel, and improve on the languages as I get to know
the countries; Im not really planning a career as such.
My questions are:
-Should I try to get some real exposure to Arabic before
seeking attempting to study more advanced texts and
broaden my vocabulary? Will it be better use of time to
put off the next stage of my studies in this language? I
have an advanced textbook, Al-kitaab Part III, pour
mieux conaitre larabe, materials for colloquial Egyptain
dialelct etc.
-Am I overstretched?
-When I use bilingual texts with audio, I generally listen a
few times until I can understand everything I can, and
isolate the unknown words. Then I read along a few
times out loud with the recording, and then I look and
the translation for the meaning of the unknown words,
and read out a few more times. Is this a good strategy?
-Do you have any ideas about how to better organize my
studies and any techniques I should be using?
-When I want to embark on the study of a language's
litrature, where is a good place to start to find
authors/titles? I would like to read at least a small
sample of books representative of the litrature of each
language.
Thank you for your time, your comments will be greatly
appreciated.
David

2 persons have voted this message useful

ProfArguelles

Moderator
United States
foreignlanguageexper
Joined 2339 days ago

610 posts - 772

votes

Message 2 of 6
30 December 2007 at 4:52pm | IP Logged

In answer to your questions:

Given the situation of diaglosia that exists in Arabic, you
do not need real-life exposure to it before you seek to
study more advanced texts and broaden your vocabulary.
If contact with the living language will cement your
relationship with the tradition, then this will be
worthwhile, but it will propel you into colloquial dialectical
studies that will not really be of assistance in your literary
aspirations. As it seems that your desire to read texts is
paramount, then the better you can do this, the more
you will profit from real-life exposure to living dialects
when you meet them.
Are you overstretched? Only you can answer this
question. What prompts you to ask it? If it is an internal
voice, then you may well be. You have accomplished an
impressively admirable amount in your short life,
especially considering your field of study, but you surely
know that really mastering languages, and especially the
kinds of exotic ones you are chasing, is always a life-long
task. It takes time for them to really take root, and you
do not want to overcrowd your cerebral soil. On the other
hand, if it is an external voice that makes you wonder
this, you should certainly ignore it. The voice of general
common sense and expectations in this world would insist
that what you have done already is impossible, and of
course it will try to dampen your spirit to continue. You
appear to have great talent and potential, and you must
not let those without these hold you back with their fears
and limited horizons.
Your strategy for using bilingual texts with audio sounds
fine given what you have done with it. If you desire,
experiment with slight variations on the practice to see if
you can tailor-make it to better suit yourself, but do not
loose study time doing this.
As for ways to better organize your studies, you are to be
commended for maintaining 5 hours a day for your
language studiesyou will go very far with this! However,
as your comments indicate you already know, the more
regular and systematic your study times can be, the
better, and the world seems to conspire against this kind
of planning. The simplest and most effective thing, if you
can do so, is to go to bed early and wake up earlythere
are fewer disturbances around dawn than at any other

time. Apart from that, many of your blocks of time1.5

to 3 hoursseem rather large. I do hope that these are
total amounts of time you commit, and they are in fact
broken down into smaller chunks?
Regarding additional techniques you might use, please
investigate returning to the oldest technique of them all,
namely transcribing by hand. If in my first incarnation on
this forum I was the apostle of shadowing, this time
around I feel the most important thing I have to share is
a testimony of the efficacy of handwriting. I suspected
no, I actually knewthat this was a most valuable
technique for years before I finally put it into practice. I
held back because I was impatient with the slowness of
it, compared to typing as a means of writing, and,
overall, after the initial rush of learning by shadowing. I
also refrained because I was displeased with my ugly and
irregular letters, and because of the physical difficulty, for
while scribes could write all day, I, as an unpracticed
modern who had years before converted to the computer,
felt real physical pain and strain in my hand after less
than an hour. I have finally preserved, however, and the
benefits of doing so are geometrically greater than those
of typing texts, and incomparably greater than not
writing at all. I most strongly encourage you to try this.
Finally, the best place to embark upon the study of a
languages literature is generally in a book whose title will
include the word reader, such as (actual titles seen
glancing over at my shelves) Russian Intermediate
Reader, Modern Persian Prose Reader, or A Reader of
Modern Arabic Short Stories.
4 persons have voted this message useful

DavidW

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom

Message 3 of 6
21 January 2008 at 8:04am | IP Logged

I'm sorry for the delay, it's been exam time and I've been
a litte under the weather. It's nice to have some support
from someone with your experience, and also I was very
Joined 1609 days ago
200 posts - 47 votes pleased to finally converse with you after reading your
Speaks: English*, many posts. I'm already putting into practice what you
have suggested here, and, as to the time blocks, yes they
Spanish, French,
are to be divided up into several chunks. Thank you for
Italian, Persian,
your comments.
Malay

Studies: Russian,
Arabic (Written),
Portuguese, German,
Urdu

ProfArguelles

Message 4 of 6
29 March 2008 at 10:46am | IP Logged

Moderator
United States

DavidW, how are your language studies coming along?

foreignlanguageexper Well, I do hope, but I wonder if I can offer you any
Joined 2339 days ago
further assistance? In any case, I am curious, and I
610 posts - 772
would simply be appreciative of periodic progress reports
from those who have sought my counsel in this regard.
votes

DavidW

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom
Joined 1609 days ago

200 posts - 47 votes

Speaks: English*,
Spanish, French,
Italian, Persian,
Malay
Studies: Russian,
Arabic (Written),
Portuguese, German,
Urdu

Message 5 of 6
28 August 2008 at 10:19am | IP Logged

Hello Professor,
Heres an update on my studies:
My Persian is quite functional now, for everyday things at
least, Ive had a good deal of practice speaking and can
read simple stories easily enough. Next year Im sharing
a house with two Iranians and things should continue to
improve. Ive also got a reasonable hold on spoken
Malay/Indonesian, by working with the linguaphone
courses, which I know well now, and a short stay in
Indonesia. Ill be finishing my last year of studies next
year in Malaysia, although I dont have any plans to take
this language to a very high level. I will certainly make an
effort to use it when I can, although more English and
Chinese are spoken on campus.
I had a motorcycle accident in May and have been having
a few problems getting around since then, so I didnt get
away for the summer, on the other hand I did a fair
amount of language study. Im planning on starting to
study Hindi/Urdu and German shortly.
Here are the materials I have collected for Hindi/Urdu:
Spoken Urdu (SLS) this course looks very
comprehensive, has drill exercises and comes with 12
cassettes.
Assimil le Hindi
TY Urdu
TY Hindi (1989 edition)
Linguaphone Hindi
In the Urdu books I have found that a lot of the words
look familiar from Persian. In the Hindi materials I have, I
dont recognise many at all. Im thinking the best
strategy may be to focus on the Urdu materials first, as
progress will be faster with the familiar vocabulary, and
then start with the Hindi materials, already having

mastered the structure. Many of the new Urdu words will

also be of immediate use in speaking Persian too I think.
German Here I will use the 60s linguaphone course
with the Assimil course, followed by drills, if necessary. I
really like these old linguaphone courses, they are
comprehensive and a systematic effort has been made to
make sure you have all the words you might need for a
practical command of the language. I have German
relatives and I hope to make more contact with them.
For the next eight months or so, this is what Ill try and
study:
2 hours Arabic
1 hour Urdu/Hindi
1 hour German
1 hour Persian (working with readers)
30mins French/Portuguese (working with audiobooks, to
keep things fresh)
30mins Russian (Old Assimil course, ditto)
This schedule may be a little optimistic, and I might
reduce the study time to 4:30 5:00 hours, but Ill see
how it goes.
For Arabic, I will continue using the DLI drill tapes, and
then pass on to the Al-kitaab series. Im beginning to
realize now what a time-consuming language it is,
compared with Persian, Ive put in 2-3 times the amount
of time and my progress is less. But, there is definite and
steady progress, I didnt have any expectations for
progress when I started to study it, and I enjoy it.
I have decided to put off studying Chinese, I dont think
its wise to be taking on another language that would
require so much time at the moment, even though the
conditions are ideal in Malaysia for doing so and I find it
quite interesting. Polish and Serbo-Croat can wait until
my Russian is better.
I recognize that while Ive found strategies to learn
languages that work well for the beginner-intermediate
phases of learning, Im less confident about how to
systematically take a language to a very high level. I took
a great interest in your offer to coach students on your
website, Im sure it would be immensely worthwhile, and
if I am in that part of the world in the future I will
certainly try to get in contact.
Regards
David

1 person has voted this message useful

DavidW

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United Kingdom

Message 6 of 6
06 June 2010 at 8:19pm | IP Logged

Hello Professor,

I thought I would give you an update as to how things

200 posts - 47 votes are going. It's been nearly two years, I think, since my
Speaks: English*, last post. My studies have progressed more or less as I
had planned. During my last year in Malaysia, I spend
Spanish, French,
probably more time on my universities studies than I
Italian, Persian,
anticipated, but managed to get in a solid couple of hours
Malay
daily, spent on German and Hindi, as well as quite a lot of
Studies: Russian,
practice with Farsi.
Arabic (Written),
Portuguese, German, The summer I was at home for about half the time,
Urdu
where I worked on the drilling Hindi and Russian (with
Joined 1609 days ago

the 'Modern Russian' books, by Clayton), and the other

half I spent in Belgium, where I have relatives, working
on my French.

Last September I started on a masters course in

Engineering in France, where I stayed until February,
leaving the course. During this time I had pretty much
ideal conditions to polish my French, which is probably
my strongest foreign language now, and I continued to
work about an hour a day on my German. I also
shadowed, and know well, the content of the first
cassette of the linguaphone Norwegian course, although I
have now put this language to one side for the time
being.
At the beginning of April I've been studying at the Minsk
State Linguistic University, attending daily group classes
for three hours a day. After class I've been working with
the Modern Russian drill course for a least a couple of
hours, and now, after two months, I am beginning to
replace this with reading literature in a parallel text
format with the audiobook (I'm working on Orwell's
1984.) This is a technique I read about in the L-R
threads, and I'm finding it very effective to expand my
vocabulary effectively and pleasantly. I also do about an
hour and a half of German a day. I think in a few weeks I
will have finally mastered the content of the Assimil and
the 60s linguaphone course, and I will start drilling with
the FSI course. In general, I have been very impressed
with the university and their teaching techniques, and
they run courses in Middle Eastern and East Asian
Languages.
While I still base my life mostly around language study,

over the past year I've been listening to lectures on the

humanities, mostly from 'the teaching company,' for
about two hours a day, on modern history, economics,
psychology etc. I do this while walking outside, and I
think it's been worthwhile. I also continue with my
engineering studies, mostly via the internet. Many
universities have put complete video lecture series online
(see for example http://see.stanford.edu/ of
http://nptel.iitm.ac.in/ ) greatly facilitating independent
study, I suppose much in the same way that the
audiocassette has facilitated independent language study.
At the moment, all in, I typically study 7-9 hours day,
taking a day off a week.
I've also continued collecting language books for different
languages, such as Greek, Hebrew, Japanese and
Chinese. I have accepted that I want to 'specialise' in
European and Middle Eastern languages, although I think
I should learn something from East Asia, to get to know
more about the culture in that part of the world. I could
imagine someone could learn a lot about the Middle East
in general by studying one of Arabic, Persian, Hebrew,
Kurdish, Turkish etc., so I suppose the same holds true in
East Asia.
In the same line of thought, I have been tempted to
study something 'African' (..sorry, I know it's a culturally
diverse place.) Something like Lingala would seem to
make sense, there's a large community living within ten
minutes walk of my relatives in Belgium, or perhaps
Nigerian Pidgin English or Swahili. European languages go
long way to in this part of the world, but maybe people
do not identify themselves with this these languages. The
same maybe holds true for many African languages with
large numbers of speakers on paper - most of these
people do not speak the language as their native
language. I suppose it's complicated and varies from
place to place. I will try to find a way to find out more
before I decide on a strategy.
Over the years, I've picked up a certain amount of know
how as to how to approach language learning, and I
continue developing these ideas. But often when I try to
give advice as to how to use their time better when
studying languages, they often get defensive or don't
take my advice seriously. People are often incredulous
that I speak a language (mostly) only by self study. I
suppose this is because in many places people associate
education with something that comes 'from above,' i.e.
schools and universities. It would be nice if I could
instead recommend them a book, written by an
established learner like yourself. Please try to finish the
book, not least because I would like to read it :-).

One other major change to my study habits was due to

acquiring a motorised satellite dish. This meant I could all
of a sudden receive television from all over Europe and
the Middle East. I made a thread about this a little while
ago, and when I am at home I usually spend a couple of
hours a day watching documentaries in different
languages.
Well, sorry for the long post.
Take Care
David
Edited by DavidW on 06 June 2010 at 11:08pm

3 persons have voted this message useful

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23987&PN=1

The term "shadowing"

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Scientific Research

Shadowing

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Language Learning Forum : Lessons in Polyglottery

15 messages over 2 pages: 1

clumsy

Heptaglot
Senior Member
Poland
lang-8.com/6715Registered
users can see my Skype
Name
Joined 261 days ago

2 Next >>
Message 1 of 15
04 December 2010 at 1:54pm | IP Logged

Was the term "shadowing" coine on this forum?

I was browsing some language dvertisements in
Japanese and I saw this term mentioned.
That means it has spred so far? Or it is just thing
known all over the world?
Wikipedia article doesn't say much about it.

350 posts - 59 votes

Speaks: Polish*, Japanese,
English, Italian, Mandarin,
Korean, French
Studies: German

Message 2 of 15
04 December 2010 at 7:20pm | IP Logged

jeff_lindqvist

Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can
see my Skype Name
Joined 1992 days ago

2498 posts - 298 votes

Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish,

I first heard Professor Arguelles mentioning it here

on the forum. To me, "shadowing" explains pretty
well what is being done. I wonder if the term is used
in other fields than language learning, and even
outside this forum. Maybe he came up with the term,
who knows.

Russian, Mandarin, Esperanto,

Irish, French
Personal Language Map
hrhenry

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United States

jeff_lindqvist wrote:

languagehopper.blogs
Joined 213 days ago

532 posts - 319 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish ,
Italian , Catalan, Galician,
Portuguese
Studies: Norwegian, Polish,
Turkish
C2

C2

Message 3 of 15
05 December 2010 at 3:48am | IP Logged

I first heard Professor Arguelles mentioning it

here on the forum. To me, "shadowing" explains
pretty well what is being done. I wonder if the
term is used in other fields than language
learning, and even outside this forum. Maybe he
came up with the term, who knows.
This is the first link that came up when I googled for
it:
http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowing
He developed the technique.
R.
==

Message 4 of 15
05 December 2010 at 4:38am | IP Logged

The act of "shadowing" can mean a lot of things

outside language learning, ranging from following
someone secretly or accompanying a work colleague,
to using RAM to increase computational speed and
shading drawings. These are just a few examples.

Teango

Diglot
TAC 2010 Winner
Pro Member
England

Similar to jeff_lindqvist, the first time I heard the

term "shadowing" used for language learning was
when I watched some videos by Professor Arguelles
a while back (most likely on YouTube at the time).

I'd heard of "chorusing" and "listening and repeating

with the text" before, but not "shadowing". This
teango.wordpress.comRegistered prompted me to look into the technique a bit further
and I quickly discovered something similar called
users can see my Skype
"speech shadowing" (or more specifically "close
Name
shadowing") which was reportedly "first used as a
Joined 639 days ago
research technique by the Leningrad Group led by
1113 posts - 573 votes
Ludmilla Andreevna Chistovich in the late '50s"
Speaks: English*, German
[source: Wikipedia, Speech Shadowing].
Studies: Russian
Personal Language Map
Additional note: I've only just ironically discovered
now that one of my former bosses was a leading
researcher on speech shadowing amongst other

things. Small world! :)

Edited by Teango on 05 December 2010 at 5:30am

Message 5 of 15
05 December 2010 at 5:22am | IP Logged

For anyone interested in the academic side of things,

here's an abstract taken from an interesting paper on
shadowing and speech comprehension:
"Pioneering research by Chistovich and her
colleagues used speech shadowing to study the
mechanisms of immediate speech processing, and in
doing so exploited the phenomenon of close
Teango
shadowing, where the delay between hearing a
Diglot
speech stimulus and repeating it is reduced to 250
msec or less. The research summarised here began
TAC 2010 Winner
with an extension of Chistovich's findings to the close
Pro Member
shadowing of connected prose. Twenty-five percent
England
teango.wordpress.comRegistered of the women tested were able to accurately shadow
connected prose at mean delays ranging from 250 to
users can see my Skype
300 msec. The other women, and all the men tested,
Name
were only able to do so at longer latencies, averaging
Joined 639 days ago
over 500 msec. There are called distant shadowers.
1113 posts - 573 votes
A second series of experiments established that
Speaks: English*, German
close, just as much as distant shadowers, were
Studies: Russian
syntactically and semantically analysing the material
Personal Language Map
as they repeated it. This was reflected in the ways
their spontaneous errors were constrained, and in
their sensitivity to disruptions of the syntactic and
semantic structure of the materials they were
shadowing. A third series of experiments showed
that the difference between close and distant
shadowers was in their output strategy. Close
shadowers are able to use the products of on-line
speech analysis to drive their articulatory apparatus
before they are fully aware of what these products
are. This means that close shadowing not only
provides a continuous reflection of the outcome of
the process of language comprehension, but also
does so relatively unaffected by post-perceptual
processes. In this sense, therefore, close shadowing
provides us with uniquely privileged access to the
properties of the system."
[source: Marslen-Wilson, W. D., "Speech shadowing
and speech comprehension", Speech Communication,
Volume 4, Issues 1-3, August 1985, Pages 55-73,
1985]
Edited by Teango on 05 December 2010 at 5:30am

3 persons have voted this message useful

Message 6 of 15
05 December 2010 at 12:04pm | IP Logged

hrhenry wrote:

This is the first link that came up when I googled

for it:
http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowing
jeff_lindqvist

Diglot
Moderator
SwedenRegistered users can
see my Skype Name
Joined 1992 days ago

2498 posts - 298 votes

Speaks: Swedish*, English
Studies: German, Spanish,
Russian, Mandarin, Esperanto,
Irish, French
Personal Language Map

He developed the technique.

Maybe he invented the walking around part, but I

definitely "spoke along simultaneously to a
recording" (without a script in front of me) long
before that. I just didn't have a name for the activity.
1 person has voted this message useful

Message 7 of 15
05 December 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged

I remember in one of his videos about shadowing, he

mentioned that he wanted to be recognized as the
originator of the method as one of the reasons for
discussing it on YouTube. So even if others were
doing it on their own, he is probably the first to have
named it and made it A Method.
Lucky Charms

Diglot
Pro Member
Japan
ameblo.jp/lapacifica
Joined 2032 days ago

537 posts - 524 votes

Speaks: English*, Japanese
Studies: German, Spanish
Personal Language Map

I've also noticed that it's a pretty widely-known term

in Japan among English learners and TOEFL
candidates. But while a Google search for
yields 146,000 results, I couldn't find any
reference to Professor Arguelles, where the method
originated, etc. It seems unlikely that the Japanese
would come up with this English label on their own,
so I believe it must have been introduce by someone
who was influenced by Professor Arguelles.

hrhenry

Hexaglot
Senior Member
United States

Message 8 of 15
05 December 2010 at 3:09pm | IP Logged

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
hrhenry wrote:

This is the first link that came up when I googled

for it:
http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowing
He developed the technique.

Maybe he invented the walking around part, but I

definitely "spoke along simultaneously to a
recording" (without a script in front of me) long
before that. I just didn't have a name for the
activity.
languagehopper.blogs
Joined 213 days ago

532 posts - 319 votes

Speaks: English*, Spanish ,
Italian , Catalan, Galician,
Portuguese
Studies: Norwegian, Polish,
Turkish
C2

C2

That's a fair statement, and one I agree with. I

personally believe that there have been no new
methods actually invented for a very long time (there
may be improvements or the media changes, but
nothing new with the method itself). However, in one
of the videos on that page, he explains why he would
like to be recognized as the innovator of that
technique.
R.
==
Edited by hrhenry on 05 December 2010 at 3:11pm