COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF
PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS
(BLUE RIBBON)
DATE
TIME
11:00 a.m.
VENUE
Session Hall
2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines
Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard
Pasay City
AGENDA
ATTENDANCE
SENATORS:
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Nestor A. Espenilla Jr.
SENATORS STAFF
Atty. Nicholai Noel Lazaro
Ms. Judith Lee
Mr. Dante Xenon Atienza
Ms. Giselle Anne Campos
G.H. Ambat
Ms. Khristine Joy E. Pulumbarit
Mr. Alemar I. Mosquito
Mr. Joseph Irvin Obenza
Ms. Michel Palma
Ms. Kristel Castronuevo
Ms. Rikka Sotto
Ms. Mini Dumalaog
Ms. Liselle Lucas
Mr. Nyl Mendoza
Mr. Doni Capuyan
Ms. Vina Panes
Mr. Claro Sampaga
Ms. Kathreena Tam
Mr. Arnyl Madayag
Ms. Judith Mijares
Atty. Alain Baguisi
Ms. Margie Manlunas
Ms. Hazel Villarba
Mr. Shielo Reyes
Atty. Lutgardo Barbo
Atty. Valery Joy Brion
Atty. Maria Patricia Rebao
Atty. Dona Paula Mendiola
Atty. Catherine Manahan
Atty. Harold Ian Bartolome
Atty. Daniel Solomon
Mr. Ryan Martin Macalatan
Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez
Mr. Ricardo Calimag
Atty. Czarina Dee
Atty. Sheela Millera
Atty. Hector Villacorta
Ms. Cecile Palines
Ms. Joan Narvaez
Ms. Sheryl Vargas
Ms. Ayn D. Nepomuceno
Mr. Dominic Lacbayo
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Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
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Recto
Recto
Recto
Recto
Recto
A. Cayetano
A. Cayetano
Enrile
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Angara
Angara
Angara
Angara
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Binay
Binay
Sotto
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Aquino
Ejercito
Ejercito
Ejercito
Legarda
SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Atty. Agapito Rene S. Conchu
persons.
Lets
get
through
with
the
administrative
requirements.
But first off, let me acknowledge the presence of the Senate
Minority Floor Leader, Senator Juan Ponce Enrile--good morning, sir;
Senator Tito Sotto--good morning, sir; Senator Serge Osmea, the
Chairman of the Committee on Banks--good morning, sir; Senator JV
Ejercito--good morning, sir; Senator Bam Aquino--good morning, sir;
Senator Koko Pimentel--good morning, sir; Senator Ralph Recto--good
morning, sir.
We have some resource persons who are new. I would like the
comsec to administer the oath. Comsec.
MR. CONCHU.
Please say it. [The resource persons who took their oath are Ms.
Nepomuceno, Mr. Marbella, Mr. Agarrado, Mr. Valerio, Ms. Ratcliffe,
Mr. Wong and Ms. A. Torres. All responded in the affirmative.]
Thank you. Please take your seats.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.
We will start with the Chairman of the Committee on Banks.
Senator Osmea, I think you have some questions.
SEN. OSMEA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning everybody.
not here today. And that former senator Rene Saguisag would like to
make a statement on her behalf.
But can we just make it short, Mr. Senator? Would you like to
just tell us why Ms. Deguito is not here and when she will be able to
appear? Can you hear me well, Rene?
MR. SAGUISAG.
So
And may I state now that I just got out of Makati Med. In fact,
when I was last here, I was in a wheelchair for the necro of Uncle Jovy
Salonga. So baka hanggang ala-una lang po at wala na ang kamandag
nyo. Maraming salamat po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay then. Thank you, Senator Saguisag.
SEN. OSMEA. May I just make a suggestion na we speak in
English because we have foreign observers and we would like them to
be able to understand whats going on. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Senator Osmea, you have the floor.
SEN.
OSMEA.
Yes.
We
also
understand
that
the
All right.
You
brought up again the fact that the Bank Secrecy Law protects the
integrity of the individual accounts. Correct?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
have the AMLA Act, theres the Bank Secrecy Law and the FCDU Law.
There are four laws, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Now, thats for an account owned by a person,
right? We understand that RCBC already has found out that those five
accounts including Picaches dont exist. Those persons dont exist. So,
therefore, there is nothing to protect. There is nobody to protect.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
consulted with our external counsel and the advice is, the wording of
the Bank Secrecy Law covers the deposit itself. So even if the account
holder, for example, would be fictitious, first, there has to be a court
order determining that. But even if, the bank secrecy still applies to
the deposits. We are very cooperative. We would like to discuss the
details.
the AMLC and the BSP. But we are unable to discuss details of specific
deposits and accounts unless there is a
SEN. OSMEA. So now you are not protecting the person, you
are protecting the deposit.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. Thats actually
what the law says.
SEN. OSMEA. Will you read the specific provision in the law?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Section 2 of the Bank Secrecy
Law provides that, All deposits of whatever nature in banks in the
Philippines are absolutely confidential in nature and may not be
inquired or looked into by any person, government official, bureau or
office. There are some exceptions, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. And so that refers to the deposit itself.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The deposit itself.
SEN. OSMEA. So if those deposits are the fruits of a robbery,
a fraudulent transaction, youre still going to protect those deposits.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
10
like towe see the loophole in the law and we hope that with this
11
steal your money and I deposit it in an account, no one can look into
that account to determine whether it was Macels money or not? As to
amount, the date it was deposited, wala.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
Honor, and there is a court case with respect to that amount, we can
discuss it in court.
SEN. OSMEA.
investigation lang.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. But in Senate hearing, sir, on
investigation the law does not allow us to speak about these deposits.
12
like to know what is the stand here or what is the personality of the
Bank of Bangladesh who owns that money.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
Bangladeshwas not?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. But this is not their money or you dont know
that its their money?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
concerned and given the current laws in place, it is not for the bank to
determine if the owner of an amount that was robbed has a right to
the account or to the deposits. Its not for the bank, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Teka muna.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Even if I would want to, we are
unable to, Your Honor.
13
SEN. OSMEA.
Teka muna.
from New York had arrived earlier and the funds were not remitted out
of Jupiter into somebody elses account, wouldnt you, the bank, have
had the obligation to stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is a freeze order from a
court, Your Honor, yes.
SEN. OSMEA. No. Without a freeze order, dont you use your
judgment and stop payment at any point?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. In general, Your Honor, if its a
request for freeze, the best that banks could do under the current laws
would be to allow the parties, the person questioning the sending of
the funds and the account holder to speak. But the bank itself does
not have the right that it has under a freeze order.
So we cannot
return the funds unilaterally in that case. That is what the law allows
us. We really just operate that way, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA.
Hindi.
ninyo, dumating iyong hold order, you got a notice from the Bank of
Bangladesh, you got a notice from the Federal Reserve Bank of New
York?
bank, not we, but the hackers hacked a US bank that is why it is now
14
federal crime and thats why there has been bigger hullabaloo because
tinamaan ang New York.
So we would like to know from you what would you have done if
you had ample notice?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If we have ample notice, in any
case, the only rights that are given to us would be to file an STR, a
suspicious transaction report, and
SEN. OSMEA. Pero itutuloy ninyo iyong remittance?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We can hold it for a period.
SEN. OSMEA. No, no, no. Tell me what you would do, dont
tell me what you can do.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
15
Honor. But unfortunately, the laws do not reflect the rights that you
are explaining. It would befor example, if a supplier sold a tractor to
a buyer and
SEN. OSMEA. If you have proof that there is legal transaction,
of course, youve got reason.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is proof
SEN. OSMEA.
Bams money and I was just transferring the money to somebody else
and I dont have any legal transaction with that somebody, there is no
trade, there is no payment for services
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.
muna.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Then we would slow down
on the processing.
SEN. OSMEA.
payment, right?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
16
processing and make the parties speak. But may I finish my example?
SEN. OSMEA. But you will stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down.
SEN. OSMEA. No. Dont tell me slow down because I dont
know what slow down
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
same effect.
SEN. OSMEA. either this goes through or this does not go
through. Isang pindot lang iyan.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
17
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
Its the
18
would be good to amend the law to give more teeth to the banks.
SEN. OSMEA. Youre blaming us now.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, sir, I am not.
Even the regulators do not have that authority, Your Honor.
wish that it would be the case because it would make our jobs easier
and it would not put us in a position where there is logic in what youre
saying and we cannot follow.
SEN. OSMEA. So you are telling the whole world that, Send
your money to the Philippines because we cannot stop the transmittal.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. I am not
SEN. OSMEA.
amount.
19
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
If thats the
procedure, our operations head is here and he can discuss the details.
SEN. OSMEA. No. This is nothing secret. I mean, you either
have a threshold amount or you dont and you have already
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
billion.
SEN. OSMEA. One billion pesos?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Or roughly $20 million?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. More or less.
SEN. OSMEA. More or less. So if it was less than that, you
dont go up to higher ups?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
20
SEN. OSMEA.
21
Pesos?
Yes.
remittances of one billion or more the past three years and we dont
hear about these remittances, you know, because most of the time we
are either in meetings or out of the country.
and this became a problem. I thought compliance rules meant for you
to be adequately forewarned.
MR. L. TAN. No, sir. They raised the issue to me, but after the
funds had left already.
SEN. OSMEA.
22
SEN. OSMEA.
not stop it because you are not allowed to stop it under the law.
MR. L. TAN. Thats right, sir.
SEN. OSMEA.
and call the Central Bank governor instead and said, Ive got a
problem?
MR. L. TAN. Well, under bank secrecy, our obligation, sir, is to
file the appropriate STR report and let the AMLC deal with the
SEN. OSMEA.
23
SEN. OSMEA.
dont think its the amount. They go to us for a business decision from
time to time, but
SEN. OSMEA.
Ms. Macel.
24
All right.
had been deposited into the account, they would have not gone to
you?
MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, they would have gone to me.
I mean, its like the difference between lending a 50-million clean loan
versus a billion clean loan. Instincts come in.
SEN. OSMEA.
25
SEN. OSMEA.
$10,000 here.
MR. L. TAN. I think what will really catch dirty money would be
having intelligent systems in your bank, like what you have in global
banks today.
bigger than RCBC and they all have threshold amounts of thatone
million, 2.5 million.
MR. L. TAN.
If
26
these remittances are meant to pay certain obligations. Like if you are
dealing with the capital market
SEN. OSMEA. Only for RCBC? I mean, you were president of
the Bankers Association of the Philippines for two years, so surely you
knew exactly what the other banks also were doing, what their
thresholds...
MR. L. TAN. Unfortunatley, Your Honor, we dont share notes
on thresholds and things like that.
systems
SEN. OSMEA.
Yes, sir.
from the people on the ground. I think if you look at our systems, we
have been applying six sigma principles in our processes.
We have
foreign consultants that look at every process of the bank and we have
16 products that we sell to every consumer and every corporation.
Remittance is just one of 16, Your Honor.
27
human controls.
execution.
SEN. OSMEA.
behaviorwhat time they go in, what time they go out, what they do
outside. We have to look at transaction behavior. Only computers can
do that because if you have a bank and you envision to have 20
million, 40 million customers times x number of transactions per
second, there is no way you can have human intervention along the
way. You must combine the people and IT.
SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN. Well, Your Honor, its like a Formula 1 race, right?
28
SEN. OSMEA.
Yes.
Nick Leeson brought down a hundred-year old
We have six
levels of training program. And yes, we are sorry this happened, but,
you know, its human error, human judgment or intentional.
SEN. OSMEA.
29
SEN. OSMEA.
may
dumating
na
$100
million,
one
account,
no
Someone
should
If its a multinational
30
been alerted?
MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if the people feel
SEN. OSMEA.
31
Wouldnt I
How
32
MR. L. TAN.
And since its going to RCBC, I dont think the banks would
Your Honor. You know, the STR report and things like that
33
SEN. OSMEA.
Yes, I know.
hypothetically. Id like you to tell me, would $400 million have alerted
your boys to tell you, Take a look at this because
MR. L. TAN. I think eventually they will inform me. But I dont
think, you know
SEN. OSMEA. Eventually?
MR. L. TAN. Yes. I dont think theyll have to inform me the
same day.
SEN. OSMEA. If it were $800 million?
MR. L. TAN. I think 800 is really out of whack, you know.
SEN. OSMEA. You mean, its impossible.
MR. L. TAN.
Well, no.
34
Will you
And another $20 million was the subject of a stop order by the Federal
Reserve on its way to Sri Lanka. Were talking about 35 payment
instructions totaling $951 million.
Now, five payment instructions went through. This one covers
the 30 payment instructions that did not go through. What is notable
here is that all payment instructions were created on the same day,
February 5, 2016.
35
RCBC, the $850 million would have gone to the five fictitious
accountsRalph Picache, Michael Cruz, Jessie Lagrosas, Alfred Vergara
and Enrico Vasquez. Five fictitious accounts, each having $30 million
payment instructions, $30 or $20 million.
another five names, the same names.
succession.
30 payment orders.
In fact, the Federal Reserve sent a Telex or as message to the
Bank of Bangladesh and they were asking the following information:
No. 1, they say, We would greatly appreciate if you could provide us
with more information on these transactions, specifically please
provide the following: No. 1, full information of the beneficiaries
Alfred Vergara, Jessie Christopher Lagrosas, Michael Cruz, Enrico
Velasquez, Ralph Picache. Then they go on and said, Please include
their occupation, connection to the originating party which is the Bank
of Bangladesh, and the website reference, if possible.
36
suppose/jbc
37
And number four, which is very intriguing, why are these payments
that represent repayment of institutional loans being made to these
individual beneficiaries. So, in other words, they were wondering why a
central bank is dealing with individual beneficiaries.
As we all know,
That would be
Mr. Tan.
I think in that case, Your Honor, it will elicit a
mean, its like a credit card that averages a thousand dollars a month
then all of sudden its charging a hundred thousand. You know, it will
be a different reaction from the team.
38
Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.
Which 81?
Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.
And
were trying to find out when will you act to stop the payment. And,
obviously, you said, Well, $81 million, its up to my lower guys to
determine whether it should come up to me. But at $850 million, it
will definitely be brought to your attention.
39
you would have allowed the $850 million to go through because the
law does not allow you to stop the payment.
transaction any longer, Mr. Chairman, because these amounts did not
go through. They were held by New York, US$850 million all supposed
to have been transmitted to RCBC. In the same manner that the first
four accounts were from New York. Kaya tinatanong ho ng Committee
kailan ba kayo mag-a-aksyon? When will you take action under your
internal rules?
MR. L. TAN.
End of day?
Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.
40
department,
someone
looks
at
the
summary
of
transactions then they start noticing big transactions like this one.
SEN. OSMEA. Uy mali, get it back. There was an order from
AMLC pero it was too late. How much will be freeze there, $60,000?
Please do not nod your head; youll have to speak into the mike,
Ms. Abad.
MS. ABAD.
41
MS. ABAD.
Sixty-eight thousand
SEN. OSMEA.
MS. ABAD.
SEN. OSMEA.
but you wouldnt freeze $81 million, thats what you are telling us.
Yes.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. OSMEA.
So
42
SEN.
OSMEA.
Yes,
thats
why
what
was
asking
hypothetically, if you had learned and you had been alerted of this,
would you have put a stop to it? Even if its a temporary stop for one,
two days until you can validate.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. OSMEA.
Yes.
a stop to this, siguro in less than two hours you will find out that those
four accounts were fake.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
43
(Central Bank of Bangladesh). And they verified that they sent us this
list with the amounts involved, the names, the date, the account
numbers. I would like to submit this to the Committee for its records.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Yes.
Good
mahaba, ano?
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
44
MR. WONG.
Sa
pong
akusasyon
laban
sa
akin
at
sa
maraming
malalaking tao, nandito ako para sabihin ang totoo at sabihin ang
aking nalalaman.
Itong negosyo namin sa casino, mayroon po kaming rules.
Kailangan magsabi ng totoo kahit anumang mangyari.
Una, wala akong kinalaman sa pagpeke ng bank documents para
pumasok ng pera sa bansa.
million.
Pangalawa, dalawang foreigners ang nagpasok ng $81 million,
isa sa kanila ay matagal nang labas pasok sa Pilipinas at kilalang
junket agent at high roller.
45
natitirang more or less P40 million sa Midas, more or less 100 million
po sa Solaire. Four point six three million dollars nakalagay sa isang
junket sa Solaire, at more or less $70 million ay hindi nakarating sa
casino at sa mga foreign players.
Pang-anim, sa kabuang $81 million na sinasabing ipinasok sa
RCBC, more or less $63 million ang pumasok sa Solaire at Midas
Casino. Ang balanse, more or less $17 million sa pagkakaalam ko po
ay na kay Philrem.
Maraming salamat po. Handa po akong sagutin ang inyong mga
katanungan.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Sandali po.
million dollars?
46
Okay.
47
Okay.
Bloomberry
around?
YesSubmitted
report
to
the
should expose the name of the--well, Ding Zhize, the guy who brought
in the funds and the 18 players who played the non-negotiable chips
that were purchased out of the funds that we received from Philrem,
Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, then.
Pinangalanan iyong pangalan, do you confirm sino ba itong mga
ito?
48
kasama ni Maia?
MR. WONG. Iyong sana ipapangalan ko po John, kung puwede
po?
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, for now John para matuloy yung
kuwento. Sige, pakikuwento anong nangyari?
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.
49
mga tao na ito, ang gobyerno po natin sa Pilipinas sana maitago para
mahanap po nila.
po.
SEN. ENRILE. Dapat sinabi mo doon sa immigration na huwag
ninyong palabasin itong mga taong ito kung nandito.
Nandito ba iyong mga tao?
MR. WONG. Supposed to be po dapat hindi po nakalabas kasi
po noong March 7 po sinabi ko sa abogado ko po kausapin ang AMLC,
kumbaga makatulong kami. Noong wala namang response ang AMLC
so iyong Solaire, March 10, hinuli niya lahat ng tao. Lahat ng kuwarto,
lahat ng perat chip hinuli ho nila kaya lang wala naman po kaming
magawa kaya nakaalis ho lahat.
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, sige. Teka muna. Teka muna, lets
put things back in perspective.
50
Sabihin mo.
Kailangan na malaman
Shuhua Gao.
51
THE CHAIRMAN.
...Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA. I think, for the record, the family name should
be the one that we use. Iyong family name niya Gao, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Gao, opo, opo.
SEN. OSMEA. G-A-O.
MR. WONG. A-O.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Thank you.
MR. WONG. G-A-O po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Gao. Okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Sino si Shuhua Gao?
MR. WONG.
Kilalang-kilala ko po.
operate sa
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, unti-untiin natin.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya?
MR. WONG. Kilala ko po.
SEN. ENRILE. Ayon. Taga-saan siya?
MR. WONG. Taga-China po.
52
53
54
THE CHAIRMAN.
question.
O sige, ako naman facilitator lang, ano?
So, anong nangyari? Sino ang nandoon sa opisina?
MR. WONG. Eto po, si Mr. Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, tatlo kayo?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Anong nangyari?
MR. WONG. Sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia magbukas po ng account,
sabi ko, Refer kita. Gusto ni Mr. Gao na dollar. So, sabi po ni Maia
kailangan corporation, corporate ba. Kasi hindi pa ho ...
THE CHAIRMAN. Corporation.
MR. WONG.
So, hindi ko
Tapos ay
nagmamadali din po ako umalis. So, sabi niya po siya na ang bahala.
Pagkatapos po-THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy mo.
55
So, sabi
Ipadala na lang. So, sabi ni Mr. Gao ipadala. So, pinadala 2,500 po
kay Maia. Iyon po ang nangyari.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
Okay.
May
Opo.
56
57
MR. WONG.
morning, ang sabi niya, Magkita tayo sa Solaire. Sabi ko, Sige po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino ang nagsabi sa iyo magkita kayo? Sige.
MR. WONG. Dalawa po sila.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si?
MR. WONG. Si Ding po at saka si Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Ding at saka si Gao. Okay.
MR. WONG. Oo kasi sabi niya po may darating na pera. O sige,
ang sabi ko, Sige. Tawag po ako kay Maia, ang sabi niya, Wala po.
Di wala. Ang sabi ko sa kanila, sabi niya, Tawag ka pa, sabi noong
dalawa. Sige, tawag ulit ako. Ang sabi ni Maia ang kulit ko. Ang sabi
ko, Ang kulit nitong dalawa. Tapos tawag na naman ulit ako. Mga
ilang tawag po, wala po.
THE CHAIRMAN. February 4 ito?
MR. WONG. February 5 ho, morning po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, February 5 na.
MR. WONG.
Tapos dumating ho
58
dumating ho $6 million.
Opo.
59
60
61
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. SOTTO.
Dala niya?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
Dinala niya?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
So dumating si Maia po
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
62
Okay.
Bale ho pagbaba.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay, sige.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Kinuha, okay.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
VOICES.
Si Maia.
MR. WONG.
Si Maia po.
63
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
Cash iyon?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Cash po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
Mayroon pong patunay iyan, itong cash na
ang
casino
po,
kami,
mayroon
kaming
gentlemen
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
64
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Ikaw?
Ako po.
SEN. ENRILE.
Marunong ka talaga.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
kami.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Kiwa.
Opo.
65
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Sa bahay nino?
Ni Concon po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
February 9?
Okay.
THE CHAIRMAN.
dollars?
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
All in cash?
Opo.
66
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
February 10, kumuha po ako ng two million
Dollars?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
February 10.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
67
THE CHAIRMAN.
Okay.
4.63 million iyong natira ko sa isang junket po, iyong nasabi ko, dahil
nag-aaway na po kami. Kinuha niya 370,000 so nagagalit na ako kasi
wala hong usapang kukuning cash.
Kasi itong negosyo namin, usapan lang, tiwala. Sabi ko, Niloloko
ninyo ako. Sabi ko, Talunin ninyo muna lahat ng pera na nasa
Solaire, saka ninyo na lang kunin ito. So kaya naiwan po iyan4.63
million dollars po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. SOTTO.
Okay.
Naiwan saan?
68
THE CHAIRMAN.
Naiwan saan?
Go ahead.
Money first?
MR. WONG.
Opo.
69
SEN. SOTTO.
Money first.
MR. WONG.
Money first.
SEN. SOTTO.
Money first.
SEN. RECTO.
No, manifest.
SEN. SOTTO.
SEN. RECTO.
Manifest.
MR. WONG.
SEN. SOTTO.
SEN. RECTO.
No, manifest.
SEN. SOTTO.
Manifestano?
MR. WONG.
muna.
70
SEN. OSMEA.
MR. WONG.
SEN. OSMEA.
Atty. Toto.
71
nyo iyong kuwento nyo. You were explaining iyong junket. So, hindi
pa nakumpleto iyong junket. Pakipara malaman ng tao.
MR. WONG. Ang junket operator po like Solaire po, mayroon po
silang mga 14 junket operators po like, say, iyong si Ding, si Mr. Ding
ho dumating po, ang tawag po diya junket agent lang o casual junket.
Usually, may dala siyang player, wala ho siyang puwesto, hindi ho siya
gumagastos, nagsusundo, lahat po.
So,
magkaiba po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
allowed ng Pagcor, iyong kita po bawat ikot po. For example, tumaya
ka ng isang million, nanalo ng isang million, meron po 1.2 po.
72
Opo, opo.
So, ang
73
I-submit mo nga sa
committee secretary.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. At this point, Mr. Wong, the chair will
start off with the questions. Mr. Wong, is that you?
MR. WONG. Opo, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sabi mo dala ni Concon Bautista on February
5 P80 million cash.
74
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Parang nasa kahon, iyong parang box,
papel na box, karton po, karton.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tapos iyong kay Ms. Maia Deguito
papaano?
MR. WONG.
Hindi ko po
kasi takot ako sa mga driver baka matsismisan ako. Never ko pang
nakausap ang tao ko hanggang ngayon.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Okay, sige.
75
Yes or no?
MR. S. TAN. That period, particular period that Mr. Kim Wong is
saying, Your Honor, is beyond the
THE CHAIRMAN. How long is the period?
MR. S. TAN. Pagcor rule requires 14 days, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Suma-total, was it erased? Yes or no?
76
MR. S. TAN.
77
THE CHAIRMAN.
Okay.
78
79
itong
harassment,
makakakuha
kang
ebidensya
para
Kasi po iyong
affidavit po.
SEN. SOTTO. Okay. Sinong nagbayad?
MR. WONG.
80
81
82
No, no.
questions we have for Mr. Kim Wong but during the last hearing, I was
able to frame my questions towards a very nagging issue and right
now Mr. Kim Wong has brought up the issue again, the issue of the
Philrem. It seems that Philrem has a starring role in this controversy.
So during the last hearing, and the Chairman already mentioned this,
you committed to submit to the Committee the records of Philrem
particularly on the amounts earned by your company and this $81
million transaction. So have you submitted the records already? Last
time you committed to submit. Sabi ninyo iyong initially you said 58
per transaction then you clarified that certain financial transactions you
get a handling fee of zero point twenty-five (0.25) percent or onefourth of one percent, something like that. Have you submitted this
already?
83
MS. BAUTISTA.
Yes, sir.
What exactly is a handling fee?
What do you
mean by handle?
MS. BAUTISTA.
accounts or
peso accounts in a certain bank like in this case the RCBC at dadalhin
sa casino, bakit kailangang dumaan sa inyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.
alam
bakit
84
po kami, Your Honor, ako like ako, I make it appoint that I get credited
first before I actually talk. Like you said, the funds have been credited
to my accounts so clear ho iyong funds na na-credit sa amin kasi
galing ho sa kliyente nila sa RCBC.
SEN. SOTTO. So iyong nagre-remit si Mr. William Go?
MS. BAUTISTA.
Opo.
Hindi po.
instructions?
MS. BAUTISTA.
85
MS. BAUTISTA.
already?
MS. BAUTISTA.
86
SEN. SOTTO.
na ito.
MS. BAUTISTA. Iba-iba po.
SEN. SOTTO.
maliliit lang?
MS. BAUTISTA. Mayroon pong malaki naman po.
SEN. SOTTO. Saan iyan? Sa casino din?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po. Sa account din po sa RCBC.
SEN. SOTTO. All right. In your statement last time, you said,
you delivered to Mr. Weikang Xu?
87
88
89
90
91
Korean
92
personally?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
know.
SEN. OSMEA. Yes, Mr. Wong said, yes. But who inside the
casino?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
93
SEN. OSMEA. All right. Mr. Chair, I move that the committee
secretary invite Mr. Rey de Guzman.
THE CHAIRMAN. So ordered. Comsec.
SEN. SOTTO. Ms. Bautista, at any point, did you or any of your
officers not be suspicious of these transactions na ang lalaki? Were
there no red flags raised?
MS. BAUTISTA. No, Your Honor, because when you talk about
casino and cash, it makes sense, if they are going to play in the
casino.
SEN. SOTTO. So, you do not have any systems or processes of
guarding against money laundering?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, we do but in this particular case,
the money came from an account in RCBC that was transferred to our
account in Unimart and all my disbursements were allowed by the
RCBC Unimart branch. I do not see any problem with the transaction
because everything has been cleared.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA. May we have the name of the manager at RCBC
Unimart branch?
MS. BAUTISTA. Her name is Pinky/rommel
94
MS. BAUTISTA.
Macaalay.
hearing, please?
THE CHAIRMAN.
Naalala ko na last time, si Ms. Deguito said that it was Kim Wong
who instructed her to use your services at Philrem. Iyon yung sinabi
po niya eh.
Mr. Wong, iyon po ang sabi dito ni Ms. Deguito, kayo daw ang
nagsabi sa kanya na gamitin ang Philrem.
MR. WONG.
Totoo po ba iyon?
Actually posa totoo po,
95
MR. WONG.
Hindi po.
Sinabi mo ba
iyon?
MR. WONG. Hindi po.
96
SEN. SOTTO.
Iyong si Maia.
Mr. Chairman.
SEN. SOTTO.
SEN. ENRILE.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
niya, kayo daw, ikaw at saka si Mr. Jayson Go at saka si Mr. Tan,
Lorenzo Tan, ay may Thursday club at nagkikita kayo halos linggolinggo. Nagkikita kayo, magkakaibigan daw kayo. Totoo ba?
MR. WONG.
Thursday club.
Sir, sandali po. Sorry po.
Hindi po ako mahilig sa social. Never po.
At marami tao po
97
SEN. ENRILE.
Ikaw.
At saka hindi
Imposible po.
Pagkatao ko, pagkatao ni Mr. Tan, hindi naman sigurong ganoon po.
Wala po.
SEN. ENRILE.
questions.
Kasi po anosa Philrem, based on the flow of the funds as
reported, it appears that the entire $81 million stolen from the Bank of
Bangladesh or part of what was really stolen ended up in your dollar
account.
98
media and the banks, they are fictitious or fake. On the other hand,
ang undisputed account lang talaga rito ay yung account ninyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. SOTTO.
true, the AMLC would be able to say that, I think all of the
personalities that have already been mentioned concerning this issue,
their accounts were frozen by the AMLC.
ng AMLC, hindi?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO.
frozen.
SEN. SOTTO.
question?
99
SEN. SOTTO.
transaction. Kayo ang nasa gitna eh. Kayo ang dinaanan ng lahat ng
pera aside from the branch manager.
MS. BAUTISTA.
manager.
100
SEN. SOTTO.
Pero ho kapag
All right.
submitted one week ago. I want to look at these receipts and records
and all that before I recommend anything to the Committee.
So I will give the floor back to you, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, thank you.
One administrative matter before I give it to Senator Recto.
The one we called for Midas, what was the name again, Ms.
NepomucenoAtty. Nepomuceno?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
THE CHAIRMAN.
101
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
Yes, sir.
Mr. De Guzman, when he comes here on
And Solaire
102
THE CHAIRMAN.
player in Solaire.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Siya po iyon.
So nakaupo ako,
Okay.
Para may customer, so nakapagbukas ako ng
Tama.
Opo.
103
SEN. RECTO.
common friends kayo, si Jason Go ang isa and then si Mr. Lorenzo Tan,
magkakilala kayo, kaibigan din ni Mr. Tan si Jason Go, if Im not
mistaken, at empleyado din itong si Maia. Kilala mo ba si William Go?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
Kakilala ko po.
Kakilala mo rin si William Go.
Opo.
Okay.
104
SEN. RECTO.
kinalaman sa hacking?
MR. WONG.
Hindi po.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
dito sa testimonya natin dito, nag-umpisa ito gawa ng may 450 million
utang sa inyo.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
Ni Mr. Gao.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
SEN. RECTO.
magtayo ng account.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
si Maia, may kasamang ibang tao sa labas, nag-usap kayo ni Mr. Gao
at si Maia para mag-open ng account.
MR. WONG.
Naiintindihan ko.
pagkaunawa ko dito.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
Opo.
So ikaw ang nagpakilala kay Mr. Gao kay Maia?
105
MR. WONG.
Opo.
Opo.
Opo.
Okay. So eventually, nakapagbukas ng account.
Wala po.
Pinakilala mo lang.
Opo.
And then noong araw ng February 5, tumawag
Opo.
Dumating nga iyong pera.
Opo.
Hindi kaya nakakapagtaka, Mr. Kim Wong
106
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
Ni
Sino po?
Si Mr. Gao.
Nabanggit niya po.
Nabanggit niya na nakapagtayo na siya ng
Opo.
So alam mo na may account na siya with Maia?
107
MR. WONG.
Alam ko po.
magsinungaling po.
SEN. RECTO. Oo nga. So alam mo rin na lima ang account na
tinayo?
MR. WONG.
Opo.
Hindi ko po alam.
Hindi mo alam iyong pangalan ng account?
MR. WONG. Maski sabihin nila hindi ko po alam iyong mga iyon.
SEN. RECTO.
ang papasok?
MR. WONG.
Parang sine lang po, iyon kasi ang nasa isip ko.
Didiretso natin.
Ang
108
iyong
nalagyan
ng
pera.
Lahat
itohindi
kaya
ngayon
Nakakataka po.
SEN. RECTO.
Nakakataka.
Kilala ko po.
Paano mo nakilala? Kay Jason Go din.
109
MR. WONG.
Madalas po.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
gawaan po.
SEN. RECTO.
Okay. Tama.
RECTO.
Oo
nga.
Tinatanong
kita.
Puwede
kayong
sumagot.
110
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
111
treasury ng RCBC?
MS. BAUTISTA.
na
lumampashanggang
February
10,
kung
hindi
ako
112
SEN. RECTO.
Okay.
So, you
confirm 61 million?
MR. R. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
113
SEN. RECTO.
Eighty-one iyon,
namin.
SEN. RECTO. Iyong 20 million na balance. Iyon ang sinasabi
ninyo. O sige, lets move forward.
So magkano iyong palit nung 61 million?
Noong pinapalitan
So mula
dolyar naging peso ito, hindi ba? Two point nine zero six (2.906) billion
ba ang sagot doon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Parang 2.895 billion more or less.
SEN. RECTO. O sige, give or take na. Ang calculation ko 2.906.
O sige na, 2.9 billion. Ang pinag-uusapan dito kulang-kulang apat na
bilyon. Medyo accounted for na natin iyong 2.9, iyong almost three or
four billion. Iyong 2.9 naman, isang bilyon tinelegraphic transfer ninyo
sa Eastern Hawaii Leisure Corporation. Tama ho ba iyon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. So, bank to bank.
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Mula RCBC
114
Leisure Company.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.
Hawaii?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi ninyo kilala?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi kaya iyong tao na sa kaliwa ninyo na apat
na hakbang sa inyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.
alam.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi mo alam. Ngayon alam mo na.
MS. BAUTISTA. Alam ko na po ngayon.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
Mr. Wong, kayo ba ang may-ari ng Eastern Hawaii Leisure
Company.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Kayo ang may-ari?
115
Okay.
laundering, isasama natin iyong casino, ito bang si Kim Wong makoconsider ninyong suspicious character? Ano sa tingin ninyo?
116
Hindi po.
Anybody
So all
117
I know.
Hindi ko po alam.
Hindi ko po alam.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi mo alam. Hindi mo alam kung bawal kang
pumasok sa China?
118
MR. WONG.
Hindi ko po alam.
Kasi
negosyo ko casino.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So, thank you, Pagcor, for your reply.
So, maliwanag, of the 4 billion, 25 percent accounted for, 1
billion, pumasok sa inyo, pumasok sa Midas, nilaro sa Midas.
May
sasabihin nyo, Sila ang sumagot ng tanong na ito. May pera bang
natitira?
119
operates.
MR. MANALASTAS. Its just that, sir, that you wanted
SEN. RECTO.
120
Wala ho.
Sa Midas
nga.
MR. MANALASTAS.
sir.
SEN. RECTO. So wala kayong report tungkol sa Midas?
121
Okay.
Thank you.
directly para mabilis tayo. Kulang iyong oras, hindi ba? Okay.
Now, Philrem, so 1 billion went there. How much did you remit
to Solaire?
MS. BAUTISTA. Peso value, Your Honor?
SEN. RECTO. Puwedeng peso.
MS. BAUTISTA. One billion three hundred sixty-five million.
SEN. RECTO. Remit iyon, 1.365 billion.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir, total. Broken down ho iyon.
SEN. RECTO. And galing sa Philrem iyan?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Did you remit any money to Centurytex Trading?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir. I deposited pesos/alicc
122
Six
123
In the first hearing nga, you said ang kinita mo lang 500.
Okay.
In the second hearing, you said 600 million and $18 million
already. Okay. And you said all of this was delivered to Weikang Xu
whatever that name is.
Now, Mr. Wong is saying that that is not true.
saying that you only deliveredwhat?
Magkano?
Mr. Wong is
Eighty plus 20 to
Mr. Weikang Xuwhatever his name is. And iyong balanse, siya ang
kumuha sa bahay ninyo. Iyon ang sinasabi niya.
So it would appear to me at that point in time, you were
protecting the name of Mr. Wong na you were giving a different
name600 million, I delivered it to this person; $18 million, I
124
To that extent.
these to AMLC.
MR. S. TAN. Thats correct, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.
125
operators. Fixed room junket operator, they will have their own room,
they will have their own chips; and casual junket operator, no fixed
room.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
126
operator in the sense that he has no junket contract with us, Your
Honor. We consider him a junket agent. He brings in people. He gets
commission.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. How much business does he give you in a
month?
MR. S. TAN. I am sorry. I did not get that information. I dont
have that information with me now, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.
127
Okay.
napunta. Okay.
Mr. Wong, masasabi mo ba dahil sa iyo rin itong 1.3 na galing sa
Philrem, napunta sa Solaire ay dahil sa inyo rin iyon?
Player mo rin
iyon.
128
129
Concon plus kinuha ko po iyong 300 million is 400 po, hindi ba?
SEN. RECTO. Okay, tama.
MR. WONG. Opo. At iyong $5 million po, nandiyan po, tapos
hindi ba poito pong 2.365, hindi ba nandiyan na po sa Solaire, Midas
po, iyong 400 million na cashhindi ba iyong 100, 100, 100400
million.
SEN. RECTO. Natatandaan ko.
MR. WONG.
130
131
132
thing we have.
SEN. RECTO.
Yeah.
$17, $18 million. Unless, huh. Baka iba iyong sinasabi ng isa.
Anyway, what about iyong YXR Trading?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor, a client of ours also.
SEN. RECTO.
$81million.
MS. BAUTISTA.
Okay.
iyong 20 wala. But you are claiming thatNow, youre changing your
testimony from the first hearing that you said, Everything was
delivered to Weikang Xu. And then, none of you wanted to mention
133
the name of Mr. Wong, it would appear to me. And now you are
saying, We delivered it to both of them and, in some instances, they
picked it up from our home.
MS. BAUTISTA. No, sir. Dineliber namin kay Weikang Xu, that
was the instruction of the branch manager.
SEN. RECTO. Yeah, we heard that already.
At lahat kayo magkakilala. You all know each other, one way or
the other. And I dont expect any of you to say naman that, Hey, we
knew that this will come from an unlawful activity. Hey, we knew that
this will be from a heist job or from a cybercrime or a hacky.
I dont
expect you to say that, but, you know, the facts are the facts
pinakilala sa isang tao ito, open account; accounts were opened,
money came in; money went to Mr. Go; went to Philrem; exchanged in
RCBC; remitted to Mr. Wong; remitted to casinos; theres a portion not
in the casinos; twenty-five percent is not in the casinos. Hindi, inisip
ko lang, baka commission naman iyon.
Anyway, finally, to Pagcor, since we are talking about AMLA,
payag kayong mapasok ang casino sa AMLA, hindi ba?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
134
SEN. RECTO.
Hindi ba nakakapagtaka
135
Bautista.
SEN. RECTO.
I will
136
And then,
137
MR. R. TAN.
center.
SEN. RECTO. And the cash center is where, head office?
MR. R. TAN. In this case, probably the head office.
SEN. RECTO. Head office.
MR. R. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. And how much cash would the head office have?
MR. R. TAN. That could be a lot, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Magkano ang tantiya mo?
MR. R. TAN. It can actually reach 500 to a billion.
SEN. RECTO. Five hundred to a billion.
But hindi ba kayo magtataka din diyan if, for example, someone
in one branch would request cash na 400 million and $5 million?
Nakakapagtaka ba iyon?
MR. R. TAN. Well, for certain clients, thats not really unusual
/jmb
138
139
iyon, ano?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Picache, Vergara, Vasquez, Cruz and Lagrosas,
di ba? Di ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Kay Gao po iyon, iyong sa junket ko po.
SEN. ENRILE.
binuksan, di ba?
MR. WONG. Opo, nung junket player ko po.
SEN. ENRILE.
Hindi.
140
Ano ba ang
Opo.
141
SEN. ENRILE. Bakit mo tinanong iyon kay Maia? Anong nagudyok sa iyo o dahilan at tinanong mo iyong question na iyon kay
Maia?
MR. WONG. Kasi po palagi niya akong kinukulit na magbukas
ng account sa RCBC.
magbukas po ng account.
SEN. ENRILE.
142
Tagalog, mag-Ingles o?
MR. WONG. Nakakaintindi kaunting English pero ako po nagtatranslate.
SEN. ENRILE. Ikaw ang naging translator.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Nag-uusap sila ni Maia?
MR. WONG.
Pero nakakaintindi
143
siya ng utang niya sa iyo o dahil gusto niyang magdala ng pera upang
magsugal sa Pilipinas?
MR. WONG. Ang sabi niya po sa akin, ibebenta niya iyong lote
niya para makapagbayad sa akin.
kilala.
SEN. ENRILE.
sugal.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Matagal na.
MR. WONG. Matagal na po. At saka nagdadala rin po siya ng
player.
SEN. ENRILE. At mayroon siyang utang sa iyo, ganoon ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Kasi naglaro siya one time po sa Solaire kasi
junket siya at saka sugarol siya.
So naglaro po sa Solairepuwede
144
500 million.
SEN. ENRILE. Ang credit niya sa iyo.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Ang limit niya 500 million.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Natalo siya ng 450 million.
MR. WONG. Opo, opo. May record po iyan pagka-pinakuha sa
Solaire. Para maipakita sa inyo iyon pong katotohanan.
SEN. ENRILE. At iyong talo niya na 450 million ay hindi niya
nabayaran.
MR. WONG. Hindi po.
145
Solaire.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Nung mangyari itong money laundering na ito,
magkano ang balanse na hindi pa nababayaran?
MR. WONG. Ang hindi ko pa po nababayaran is 290 million.
SEN. ENRILE. Two hundred ninety million.
MR. WONG. Opo, sa Solaire.
SEN. ENRILE. Ngayon, noong si Mr. Ding Zhize/jbc
146
Opo, sir.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.
Oo nga.
SEN. ENRILE.
na iyon?
MR. WONG.
Opo, sir.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Si Mr. Gao?
147
SEN. ENRILE.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Kasi po minsan po
na siya?
MR. WONG. Nagsusugal po, nagdadala po ng player. May record
po tayo. Mayroon po akong record, pwede ko pong i-submit po.
SEN. ENRILE.
million po.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
148
SEN. ENRILE.
siya, walang ?
MR. WONG.
Oo.
MR. WONG.
May
Ang
Nagdadala ng player?
Opo, marami po, regularly po kami, matagal na
po.
149
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Nagdadala ng player?
Opo, kaya lang minsan lang po siya nagsugal
Mr. Zhize?
MR. WONG.
Ding po.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Si Mr. Ding--
Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.
Na investor?
150
MR. WONG.
Hindi isusugal?
MR. WONG.
sorry po.
SEN. ENRILE.
sugarol din?
MR. WONG.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Huh?
Nagdala si Ding?
SEN. ENRILE.
Twenty?
MR. WONG.
MR. S. TAN.
THE CHAIRMAN.
How many?
MR. S. TAN.
MR. WONG.
SEN. ENRILE.
151
MR. S. TAN.
Mr. Gao?
MR. S. TAN.
Huang Zheng(?).
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
Huang?
Huang Zheng.
That was the name given?
Yes, Your Honor.
Was that the first time that he was brought into
Solaire?
MR. S. TAN.
152
SEN. ENRILE.
Hindi po.
SEN. ENRILE.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Si Mr. Gao?
Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.
Deguito kay Mr. Gao, May 13, 2015, hanggang doon sa February 4
bago dumating iyong pera kung sila ay nagu-usap tungkol doon sa
mga accounts na iyon? Sila, ibig sabihin si Maia at saka si Mr. Gao.
MR. WONG.
153
sila. So sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia na baka pwede po magbukas siya ng
limang accounts na peso kasi nandito na ang pera, ipapadala na lang
peso.
SEN. ENRILE.
Mr. Gao?
MR. WONG.
SEN. ENRILE.
2016?
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
154
MR. WONG.
Hindi po.
SEN. EJERCITO.
Iyong apat na
155
natin ngayon kaya ho gusto ko tumulong para maano itong tao na ito,
itong gumawa ho nito.
SEN.
EJERCITO.
Kasi
madalas
hong
nabanggit
nitong
sa
ito
na
bilang
isa
sa
mga
tingin
na
mastermind?
MR. WONG.
lang po.
156
SEN. EJERCITO.
inuutos po.
SEN. EJERCITO. At ang isa pa ano, tutal nandito na rin si Mr.
William Go, ay ang pagbubukas daw ng account sa pangalan ni William
Go ay ipinag-utos din daw ninyo, totoo ba po ito o hindi?
MR. WONG. Nandito po si William puwede nyo ho itanong, di
ba po?
SEN. EJERCITO. Hindi, iyon nga
MR. WONG. Hindi po ako ang nagbukas ng account ni William.
Hindi ko po alam sino ang nag-isip noon na buksan. Nagkataon lang
po. Ang laki ng ngayon dahil sinasabi ni Senator Recto na ang dami
kong kaibigan lahat.
157
siyang alam dito, si Mr. Tan po. Ako po ang maggagarantiya, sigurado
po.
SEN. EJERCITO. Sige po, salamat po.
May tanong lang din ho ako, kasi noong nakaraang hearing gusto
ko lang hong linawin kay Mr. William Go, ang sabi rin po ni Ms. Deguito
at ayon din sa affidavit, puwede ko na rin munang tanungin bago ho
kayo, andito na rin po si Ms. Angela Torres na siya pong assistant
manager ng Jupiter Branch ng RCBC.
Ayon po sa salaysay ni Ms. Deguito at dahil sinangayunan niyo
rin po, na mayroon hong 20 million na idineliber o isinakay sa
sasakyan po ni Mr. William Go sa labas po ng RCBC Jupiter, totoo ba
ito o hindi?
MS. A. TORRES. Your Honor, hindi ko po masasagot iyan kasi
nag-file na po ng case sa akin si Mr. William Go.
158
Iyon
Iyong
159
Sila din
At may
nabanggit din ngayon si Mr. Kim Wong, may kinlaro nga po ngayon 20
million nasa kotse ni Maia Deguito doon sa Solaire.
Valid na siguro
iyon.
SEN. EJERCITO. May itatanong lang ako, Mr. Chairman. Just a
few more questions to Atty. Julia Bacay-Abad of AMLC.
Ms. Abad, as to your investigation, did you uncover new facts
relative to this case since the last Senate hearing?
hearing was March 17, so are there anything new regarding this case
in that period?
MS. ABAD.
160
SEN. EJERCITO.
accounts used in these transactions are fictitious, did you find out the
real names of those in the pictures during your investigations?
Because it was recently reported in the news so I just read it, Atty.
Abad, that some pictures were employees of RCBC.
Do you confirm
this?
MS. ABAD.
161
162
THE CHAIRMAN.
to--you have to still dig deeper because the hole seems to be getting
deeper and deeper. As you have seen today, Mr. Kim Wong is saying
that the 80 million was never delivered. In fact, he is saying that there
was no Mr. Weikang Xu at Solaire whereas Philrem is saying they did
deliver the 80 million to Mr. Weikang Xu.
So, we expect more action on your part in the next few weeks or
days.
Is Mr. Agarrado here?
Mr. Agarrado--can we ...the page?--I just like to ask--Ito iyong
kotse na--picture na sinubmit (submit) ni Mr. Kim Wong?
Can you show it to him?
Since you are a member of the branch, does that appear to be--I
know you wouldnt say it to the exact picture but I would like to say,
does that appear to be the car of Ms. Maia Deguito?
MR. AGARRADO. Your Honor, ito po iyon. This is her car and
the car Honda Jazz DR 2685.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Okay.
163
Ah, okay.
164
Sabi nila by 14
165
naman gambling area, eating area iyon. Baka naman iba iyong--hindi
14 days.
MR. S. TAN. Understood, Your Honor-THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Baka you can produce something next
hearing.
MR. S. TAN. I will report in the next hearing, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.
Senator Bam Aquino.
SEN. AQUINO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maraming salamat
po.
166
167
Wong.
SEN. AQUINO. But Mr. Kim Wong was present?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, madami po sila.
SEN. AQUINO. Sino pa iyong mga kilala mo doon na kasama ni
Mr. Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi ko na ho kilala, mga Chinese po sila.
SEN. AQUINO. Si Mr. Wong kilala mo?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo.
168
hearing Mr. Wongs name was quite popular already, umiikot na and I
think that is why he is here, ano, para mapag-usapan niya mismo
iyong kanyang narrative.
Paulit-ulit iyong
pangalan niyang Kim Wong and yet you still did not mention it during
the last hearing, tama po?
MS. BAUTISTA. Kasi po ang pinag-uusapan lang ho namin sa
remittance iyong beneficiary lang po.
SEN. AQUINO. So, you did not feel it was important to mention
that Mr. Kim Wong was present in the last hearing?
MS. BAUTISTA. Madami din pa ho kasing ibang mga Chinese
na kasama noong...
SEN. AQUINO. But, obviously, Mr. Kim Wong is central to this
conversation. Hindi nyo siya minention (mention) talaga?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, hindi ho namin alam--
169
SEN. AQUINO.
Okay.
But
Senator Recto asked you pointblank kanino nyo binigay and you said,
Weikang Xu, which is right.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Weikang Xu.
SEN. AQUINO.
170
171
172
MR. WONG.
SEN. AQUINO.
namin iyong mga tao sa bahay ninyo, will they say that there was Mr.
Kim Wong, Mr. Weikang Xu and five other players?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.
SEN. AQUINO.
SEN. AQUINO.
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.
SEN. AQUINO.
173
Hindi po totoo.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.
Opo.
SEN. AQUINO.
kanina, pwede mong sabihin on the record daw kung anong nakita mo
sa loob ng bahay nila? May painting ka bang nakita? May picture?
Pagpasok ba living room, may TV?
MR. WONG. Maraming painting.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.
Ano?
Pag tiningnan ninyo po iyong painting maliit po,
Okay.
Special painting ho iyon. Maliit lang po, pag
Hindi ko ho malimutan.
SEN. AQUINO.
174
MR. BAUTISTA.
When
was
he
at
your
house,
previous
to
these
Last year.
SEN. AQUINO.
175
MR. WONG.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.
Okay.
SEN. AQUINO.
Okay.
Nawawala po.
SEN. AQUINO.
176
P1.365 billion.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
That is right.
sa perang iyon?
MR. S. TAN.
177
SEN. AQUINO.
SEN. AQUINO.
Sorry.
178
MR. S. TAN.
room junket operator, so they have their own rooms and when a
junket player plays with them, they issue their separate, distinct nonnegotiable chips, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.
the junket operator has its own cage. That is the pocket cashier. And
so we have no visibility on the transaction of a junket operators games
between the junket operator and the player, your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. So hindi natin alam kung na-encash ba ito, nasa
account ng junket operator. We dont know. Your Solaire does not
know.
MR. S. TAN.
na alam, in effect.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
179
MR. S. TAN.
Have you written junket operator A and told them P900 million
worth of Bangladeshis money is with you. Nasabi ninyo po iyon?
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.
out and they said thatWe told them that you will be called to a
hearing and youll be asked to explain. And they said, they will explain
when called, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.
operators.
When they said they were paid out, does that mean they
encashed it already? Sabi mo, they were paid out.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
perang iyon.
180
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. AQUINO.
181
Im sorry.
Last
Where is Weikang Xu? And you gave us information of him and the
players under him.
182
MS. ABAD.
After we
Okay.
perang iyon baka nasa sistema natin, kailangan natin talagang ibalik
iyan. So, please use that information of Atty. Tan. We dont want to
mention that name but it is already with the
MR. S. TAN.
AMLC.
We dont want to
Nuong
183
600
saka
18
na
in-encash
na
right
now
hindi
tayo
184
SEN. AQUINO.
Magkano pa po
iyong intact?
MR. WONG. Iyong natira po doon sa laro, more or less, nasa 40
million pa.
SEN. AQUINO. Dollars?
MR. WONG. No, pesos po.
SEN. AQUINO. Fourteen?
MR. WONG. Four-zero (40).
SEN. AQUINO. Out of 550 million of 900 million.
MR. WONG. Iyong P450 million binayaran sa utang ko po.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay.
MR. WONG. Iyong 550 po may natira pa ho, P40 million plus.
SEN. AQUINO. So, youre saying may P40 million pang natitira.
Ano ang nangyari doon sa P510 million, nilaro?
MR. WONG. Nilaro po, nilaro po.
SEN. AQUINO.
Iyong dead chips po tapos nilaro, pag nanalo po sila, puwede ho silang
kuning cash.
185
ngayon, naging 1.5, iyong 500 puwede mong kunin ng cash. So, iyong
one million ipapalit ho.
SEN. AQUINO. So, intact pa ba iyong chips worth 550 million?
MR. WONG. Hindi na po. Natalo po sila, eh. Mga sa 40 million
something po.
SEN. AQUINO. Natalo sa Midas?
MR. WONG. Opo. Puwede po, nasa record po ng Pagcor, kung
ire-reconsume, puwede naman po i-submit para makita po.
SEN. AQUINO. Meaning puwede pang ibalik iyong pera?
MR. WONG. Iyong 40 million plus po.
SEN. AQUINO. Hindi, iyong 510. Actually, sa totoo lang, alam
ko may utang siya sa iyo pero kahit iyon galing iyon sa nakaw na pera.
MR. WONG.
186
SEN. AQUINO.
Okay.
under Pagcor, puwede pa bang ibalik iyon? I dont know the answer,
Mr. Manalastas.
MR. MANALASTAS.
187
MR. WONG.
Midas po.
So,
Ang
tanong ko, nasaan iyong pera, nasa Eastern Hawaii, nasa Pagcor, nasa
Midas?
MR. WONG. Nasa Eastern Hawaii po.
SEN. AQUINO. Eastern Hawaii.
MR. WONG. Iyong sinasabi nyong pera 550 nasa Eastern
Hawaii.
SEN. AQUINO. But youre considering that a done transaction
kasi nilaro na?
MR. WONG. Iyon ang ano ko.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. May tanong ako, Atty. Abad. Alam ko
kung
ma-establish
na
iyong
perang
gamit
mo
illegal
ang
188
In this case,
However,
Manilas World. Puwede nyo naman pong makuha iyong record kung
sinong player.
SEN. AQUINO. Atty. Abad, mayroon ba tayong legal recourse?
189
Hacking or kung
ano man ang nangyari, hindi iyan pera nung limang tao na pinasok
iyong pera, hindi iyan pera ni William Go, hindi rin iyan pera ng
Philrem, hindi iyan pera ng RCBC. That came from Bangladesh. Aside
from the cash, nati-trace naman natin kung saan napunta iyong pera.
May legal recourse ba tayo na. . . (nam)
190
SEN. AQUINO.
is
concerned, it has been checked in. I dont know what check in means.
SEN. AQUINO. Anyway, are our laws strong enough to recover
that money? Iyon na iyong last question ko. Kaya ba ng mga batas
natin na ma-recover iyong perang iyan or may kakulangan iyong batas
natin. Hindi na natin mare-recover kung nakapasok na sa mga casino,
nakapasok na sa ibang transaction, hindi na mare-recover o marerecover, kaya ba o hindi?
MS. ABAD. There are remedies provided under the law.
SEN. AQUINO. And that is one of the remedies, if I am not
mistaken.
MS. ABAD.
191
petition for civil forfeiture against all these properties or assets that are
being related to unlawful offense.
SEN. AQUINO. Thank you, Atty. Abad.
And of course, we are doing the hearings so people will know
what really happened or people can judge for themselves kung ano
talaga ang nangyari.
operators?
SEN. AQUINO.
the Philippines...
THE CHAIRMAN. Of which, Solaire and Midas?
SEN. AQUINO. No, just Solaire.
192
junket operators identified in our report, there are two, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.
cannot.
MR. S. TAN. Maybe they should be subpoenaed, Your Honor.
193
THE CHAIRMAN.
customers of yours?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, sir. They operate inside our casino.
THE CHAIRMAN. So if you say, If you dont go to the Senate,
then we dont do business with you. Then I suppose they will come.
In other words, my point is dont you have a hold over them?
MR. S. TAN.
Part of the
contract says they should follow Philippine laws so-THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Could you supply the names and their
addresses...
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.
194
SEN. AQUINO.
Very quickly.
probably has left the country via a private plane, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. They dont have a record of his departure?
MS. ABAD. The BI, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Aquino.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Weikang Xu is a known person to Mr. Wong
and to Midas.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, I was getting to that.
195
SEN. AQUINO.
Ano na iyong
nangyayari na ito.
MR. WONG. Hindi ko pa nakakausap.
SEN. AQUINO. You didnt try to?
MR. WONG.
second
confirmation
again
from
the
Immigration
196
THE CHAIRMAN.
Honor-THE CHAIRMAN.
I believe that
197
Eastern Hawaii. And in our case, Eastern Hawaii who actually operates
the-THE CHAIRMAN. So in other words you wouldnt know?
MS. NEPOMUCENO. We wouldnt know exactly-THE CHAIRMAN. You operate a casino but you dont know who
goes in and out?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
been submitted.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay then. Let us not dillydally on this point.
Anyway, Mr. Kim Wong, you said hahanapin ninyo po.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Now we go to Senator Koko Pimentel.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
For Pagcor, Mr. Manalastas, you have heard the explanation of
Atty. Nepomuceno hiding under the sub-agency agreement.
Should
this?
MR. MANALASTAS.
Sir, I may,
198
199
SEN. PIMENTEL.
your own flagship project, the Entertainment City? Whats the logic
putting up your own casino to compete with the casinos you have
incentivized to locate in Entertainment City?
MR. MANALASTAS.
have different types of market. Solaire has foreign market, bigger. And
we cater to the locals also.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
Atty. Tan?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
review
the
logic
behind
you
having
flagship
project
called
Entertainment City and then you are supposed to protect that project
to make the locators there earn money and then you want going to
compete with them by putting up your own casino just a couple of
kilometers away.
Anyway, for Atty. Nepomuceno, in one breath you mentioned
Eastern Hawaii and a certain Oriental. What are those two entities and
how are they related?
200
Prime Investment Korea Inc our own company, and we actually in turn
have a sub-agency agreement with Eastern Hawaii.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
Oriental Casino?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
Honor, I believe.
SEN. PIMENTEL. You dont know?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
Eastern Hawaii. I know for a fact, that it is being used in Midas Hotel
and Casino.
SEN. PIMENTEL. You dont care? You dont care to find out?
201
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
Eastern Hawaii.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Okay. To Director Abad. Against whom have
we filed money laundering cases or complaints as of today?
MS. ABAD. As of today, Your Honor, we have filed two criminal
complaints: The first one is against Ms. Maia Deguito and the four
account holders. And the second one is against Mr. Kam Sin Wong
a.k.a. Kim Wong, and Mr. Weikang Xu, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Seven? At least against seven personalities.
Yeah.
MS. ABAD. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. And what is the basis of your case against Mr.
Kim Wong? Is it because of the testimony of Maia Deguito that he was
the one who told her to open the four fictitious accounts or is it
because of the transfer of funds from Eastern Hawaii to his personal
account?
MS. ABAD.
202
activity behind the money. So, that means that AMLC is convinced that
Mr. Kim Wong has knowledge of the illegal source or the unlawful
activity which generated the money transfer to his account. But he is
if we put the events on a timeline, hes actually on the ending part. So,
I am wondering why an actor like Philrem which if not in the middle
but at the beginning part of the timeline of events constituting money
laundering, how come you do not attribute knowledge to Philrem
because you did not even freeze Philrem accounts and you did not file
a case against Philrem?
MS. ABAD.
203
part of Kim Wong and then you do not attribute knowledge on the part
of Philrem which played a very crucial role in remitting the amounts?
204
205
explain, Your Honor. Because when we filed the petition for freeze
order against all those identified/rommel
206
that person who received, like the passport which she promised to
bring which she did not bring.
And
then here comes testimony from Mr. Kim Wong that theres a missing
17 million, so its word versus word, but if you can believe the word of
Philrem, can you not also believe the word of Kim Wong and take
precautionary measure to save that $17 million?
MS. ABAD.
207
SEN. PIMENTEL.
that there are still left with the casinos, 40 million in Midas; 100 million
in Solaire.
something about it, and with your power to regulate and license
casinos?
AMLC first, what can you do?
parts of these monies are with the junket operators and if we can
receive information pertaining to those junket operators, then we can
file appropriate petition for freeze, Your Honor.
208
SEN. PIMENTEL.
for freeze with the Court of Appeals, we have to describe the assets
being frozen.
being frozen.
550 kasi nalaro na at natalo but sabi niya may 100 pang balanse, are
we not even going to try to recover the P100 million?
Anyway, we have heard Ms. Abads answer but, Pagcor, can you
not do anything about this?
MR. MANALASTAS.
209
SEN. PIMENTEL.
If
they are willing to cooperate, then they should not get hurt or be
insulted if such an amount is frozen?
If you
say that they are willing to cooperate, they told you they are willing to
cooperate, so whats wrong with
MR. MANALASTAS.
account, sir?
SEN. PIMENTEL.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair, would you like to repeat that, that
last sentence? I didnt quite catch it.
210
MR. S. TAN. The total amount which we made from the Ding
group when we stopped the play last March 10, 2016, Your Honors,
total--107,350,602 in balance in their chips account. In addition, we
confiscated
various
denominations
of
cash
from
their
rooms
This is companys
decision.
SEN. OSMEA.
freeze.
Yes, Macel, you want to say something.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Thank you, sir.
The bank has greater obligations, I believe, under existing laws.
SEN. OSMEA.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
out.
211
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
We have
that obligatiion.
SEN. OSMEA.
accounts.
MR. MANALASTAS. Thank you, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
million po.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
Opo.
Magkano?
212
Am I
correct?
MR. WONG.
So nakuha po nila ng
213
MR. WONG.
SEN.
PIMENTEL.
Pagcor,
can
we
secure
that
amount
immediately?
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Senator, if I may?
MR. ESPENILLA.
consign it to BSP and BSP has vaults that can secure amounts.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, thats why I am saying, Mr. Kim Wong
can make arrangements with the Central Bank for him to turn over the
money to the Bangko Sentral for safekeeping.
MR. WONG.
THE CHAIRMAN.
your part?
MR. ESPENILLA.
214
MR. ESPENILLA.
Okay then.
So, Mr. Kim, would you make arrangements with the Bangko
Sentral?
Anyway, after this meeting, you can meet with Governor
Espenilla to go over the procedure of turnover.
MR. WONG.
Whatever.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
RCBC of our law on the secrecy of bank deposits. They say that its
215
the deposits are the ones being protected. But if you read the law, the
protection over the deposits would disappear or would dissipate if
there is a written permission of the depositor.
Therefore, the
protection is not for the benefit of the deposit but for the benefit of the
depositor. That is very, very clear.
Hence, if the depositors have been determined by the bank itself
as fictitious depositors, there is no point in invoking or applying the
bank secrecy law.
Now I am interested in looking at the documents used in opening
the five fictitious accounts.
Correct.
all amounts were gone by February 9 or
216
for the transaction history of the July 2014 peso account of William So?
Have you submitted it to the Committee?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
hearing.
Honorable
SEN. OSMEA.
you guys always give these documents one hour before as if were
geniuses that we can absorb it. You will submit it tomorrow. Okay?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA.
documents to the AMLC and if thats a way for the Senate to receive
217
the reports, perhaps they could ask the AMLC. But we have submitted
all the documents relating to all the accounts to the AMLC, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Senator Koko.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
directly to RCBC.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
We want to
know. And we know that your reason would be bank secrecy, then I
will move that we will not accept the reason.
Is RCBC going to submit to this Committee all of the documents
including the opening forms for the five fictitious accounts opened at
RCBC Jupiter branch?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
secrecy did not apply to the Velarde account because it was fictitious,
it limited its decision only to that specific account.
So we do not have any decision yet that covers all the
supposedly fictitious accounts.
218
SEN. PIMENTEL.
It will be a political
But I need an
answer if they are submitting or not because I will move that we will
now overrule.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Atty. Macel.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
comply.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
request that you give the documents on the fictitious account? Yes or
no.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
clear
THE CHAIRMAN.
219
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
No.
comply.
THE CHAIRMAN.
Okay.
Thats all I
wanted.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
the ground invoked by RCBC which is the bank secrecy law as a valid
reason not to comply with the request.
even at the start. If you recall, iyong mga unang sinabi ko na bakit
ganoon, iyong tao fictitious, hindi totoong tao. And this morning also,
Senator Osmea reiterated that position.
At any rate
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
THE CHAIRMAN.
just comply?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
THE CHAIRMAN.
oclock, eight oclock.
answer.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
220
THE CHAIRMAN.
Ive been informed that the sound system, the speakers, theres
something wrong with them and they would like five minutes to check
on the sound system.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
time.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
sent by today.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN.
221
THE CHAIRMAN.
Hearing resumed.
following,
by
Senators
Recto
and
Angara,
all
receipts
of
Second,
Give it to us by tomorrow
afternoon, all of these documents. Its been two weeks. Now, I need
a response.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.
222
million.
THE CHAIRMAN.
(US$4.63 million).
So, at least, there is something positive.
Ambassador is here.
talked to Mr. Kim a while ago during the break and he is willing to
make arrangements through his lawyers to turn over the cash to the
AMLC. We agreed, instead of the Bangko Sentral, the AMLC. Anyway,
youre lodged within the Central Bank at the same time.
And from
223
Senator Osmea?
Are there
any objections?
Minority Floor Leader.
SEN. ENRILE.
policy question.
banking policy that protects the depositors of this country. Now, the
purpose is very clear that we cannot open these accounts except the
authority granted by law, granted by us. Only on those grounds can
224
opened these accounts, at the time they were opened, they complied
with all the requirements of validity of opening the accounts.
Somebody now used them for an illegal purpose. Thats given. But it
is not within the jurisdiction of these legislative house or committee to
determine the illicitness of those accounts.
authority under the Constitution.
powers to require them to violate the law that we so imposed upon the
general public, what value will be those documents when the litigation
will come? They cannot be presented as evidence. They are brought
to the public by duress.
225
SEN. OSMEA.
All right.
accounts?
SEN. ENRILE. Well, according to the record-SEN. OSMEA.
accounts?
SEN. ENRILE.
records, by Picache
SEN. OSMEA.
manager.
SEN. ENRILE. Vergara, Vasquez, Cruz and Lagrosas.
226
SEN. OSMEA. But they dont exist. But, Mr. Senator, they do
not exist.
SEN. ENRILE. Huh?
SEN. OSMEA. These personalities, these persons do not exist
and they have been admitted--As a matter of fact, RCBC
SEN. ENRILE. How do we know that they do not exist?
SEN. OSMEA. said that youve been able to trace
SEN. ENRILE.
But we have
submitted all required reports to the AMLC and to the BSP, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. AMLC, can you answer that? Because I read in
an articleand Im sorry, I didnt clip the articlethat RCBC confirmed
the identity of two people in the photos and they were the leg men of
Maia Deguito working at the bank. In other words, peke/alicc
227
228
SEN. ENRILE.
Yes.
knowledge?
MS. ABAD. Well, Your Honor, we did that. We gathered those
evidence or those documents in the course of our investigation and I
think the matter ofI mean, this investigation, the Senate inquiry
pertains to our investigation so I think I am justified in sharing this
information with this honorable body, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.
which way you look at it, there is no legal person who opened these
accounts and we cannot treat these accounts like they were opened by
people who really exist and who signed the signature cards.
SEN. ENRILE.
229
SEN. ENRILE.
And as a practical
230
submitted, some are probably government issued IDs and find out
whether these are LTO authorized IDs or completely fake IDs,
etcetera.
We dont know, Mr. Chairman, what conclusions or what
information we can get from these documents. What is important is
that they be before us so that we can study them.
We didnt know
that the appearance of Kim Wong today would yield $4.63 million. We
never knew that. So we dont know.
SEN. ANGARA. Mr. Chair, can we ask if RCBC forwarded such
information to AMLC? Because there is more than one way to skin a
cat and if we can get this information from AMLC, thenbecause I can
understand the dilemma of the bank because there such a thing as
bank runs, there such a thing as criminal sanctions under
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
231
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
Yes.
232
THE CHAIRMAN.
Hearing resumed.
233
statement?
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.
234
SEN. ENRILE.
They disappeared. Thats why the best proof of their existence or nonexistence is get the Registry of Death and the records of birth.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, they are fictitious, Mr. Senator, in the
sense that they did not open the accounts and these hearings have
been dragging on ever since and they have not shown up.
The
records,
the
as
found
by
the
Anti-Money
Laundering
Council,
hearing since the beginning and the worse that I heard from the
manager of the bank, from her own lips under oath before us, is that
these were referred clients and they completed all the identification
documents, including the required bank documents to be filled. They
exist according to the sworn testimony before us.
THE CHAIRMAN.
were given to her. According to her testimony, they were given to her
accomplished already. She did not see them personally sign the
documents.
235
testimony of the bank manager says that she did not personally see
them sign the documents.
SEN. ENRILE. Well, then if she did not, then that will remain a
subject of disciplinary action later on. But can we take that as a lifting
of the privilege granted under the law? They are depositors. The bank
has a duty to protect its own depositors as far as the bank is
concerned. There are depositors listed in their deposit list of accounts.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, that may be your opinion, Mr. Senator,
but that is certainly not my opinion. My opinion is that there is enough
reasonable basis to regard them as fictitious. And therefore, I stand
by my opinion.
SEN. ENRILE.
Okay.
Senator Angara.
236
237
Honor.
SEN. ANGARA. Oo. But as you mentioned, you cannot gamble
cash. Pero sa akin, iyong normal chips, parang cash iyon, hindi ba,
pwede mong i-encash kaagad?
purpose niya?
238
MR. S. TAN.
Thats
why, well, Id like to correct the impression that casinos, you know,
are black holes.
without a trace.
The casino, as
dead chips? Sabi niyo its to monitor the player. But if Im the player,
hindi ko maintindihan, why would I want to be monitored?
239
MR. MANALASTAS.
I mean,
Youre correct.
I see, okay.
240
players
to
your
by
providing
them
withby
241
iyon pag pinalit na because you assume that, eventually, at the end of
the day, pag nanalo iyon, papalitan niya ng real chips.
MR. MANALASTAS.
Your Honor
the proceeding?
casino?
MR. MANALASTAS. Well, No. 1, the junket operator has all the
records as to how much he will be playing. And then on the table, all
the dealers, I mean, all the supervisors will keep records and, of
course, the cage, meaning, the cashier.
agent himself because those are his players. He would want to monitor
them for purpose of collecting his commission.
SEN. ANGARA.
242
SEN. ANGARA.
Okay.
with Lucky 9. Player who getsI mean, if you get nine, thats
SEN. ANGARA. Is it just the dealer and the player or there are
many players?
MR. MANALASTAS.
Well, it depends.
Yes.
example, itong sinugal na 400 or 500 million. I think 550 million iyong
nabanggit na nawala sa casinos, iyong losses.
saan iyon, in what span of time, for example?
So if
243
But then
sometimes they do extend. And then after, for example, if they lose,
they may enroll or check in another amount.
SEN. ANGARA.
Kasi ang
naglaro ng one million, tapos nanalo siya one point five, di puwede
niya kuning cash. Pero pag nilabas niya po iyong one million, natalo
una natalo siya ng 500, iyong 500 naka-record, talo ho siya, isosoli sa
cage.
244
Iyong 550 million po, more or less, may natira sa Midas, nasa 40
plus million.
SEN. ANGARA. So 510 iyong nasugal at natalo doon sa junket
na hawak ho ninyo?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Mr. Wong, 510 million ho iyong natalo. Ilang
players ho iyon? Isa lang ho ba iyon, si Mr. Gao lang iyon?
MR. WONG. Hindi po, marami. Iche-check ko ho sa operation.
SEN. ANGARA.
245
talking to some people in the industry and they said one way of
laundering money through the casinos is by placing bets on both sides.
MR. MANALASTAS.
betting?
MR.
MANALASTAS.
Senator,
napakarami
hong
nagbabantay/jbc
246
MR. MANALASTAS.
Is it prohibited?
bawal but then we know that that is not correct in terms of-SEN. ANGARA.
should look into, Mr. Chair, because if its possible then it can be done
already because any amendment to the AMLA will be passed in the
Seventeenth Congress. And so right here, we have an admission that
its--from the gambling regulator that its possible to launder money in
this form of balanced betting. So I think maybe Pagcor can require
casinos to provide records of this balanced betting.
247
When I earlier
Is it against any
However, when we
MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.
Since 1986.
betting o prinivent (prevent) ninyo, you called their attention for it?
248
MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.
MR. MANALASTAS.
Bakit ho?
MR. MANALASTAS.
They are there to play. And then when they see this happen,
immediately they will be accosted.
SEN. ANGARA.
monitoring.
SEN. ANGARA.
Such as?
MR. MANALASTAS.
249
SEN. ANGARA.
Iyon nga.
for 81 million.
SEN. ANGARA.
And perhaps
250
na sabi nila nakaw, at least siguro may makuha iyong taong bayan in
the form of taxes. Because hindi ba iyong mga remittancesvarious
remittances, subject to documentary stamp tax ho iyon. Iyon naman
hong deposits, no matter how short it passes through the bank, thats
subject to withholding tax ho.
251
SEN. ANGARA.
Pesos, Im sorry.
anong sabi ninyo ho, Mr. Wong, magkano ang naiwan sa Philrem ho?
MR. WONG.
SEN. ANGARA.
Thats why I
SEN. ANGARA.
MS. BAUTISTA.
Yes.
SEN. ANGARA.
stamp tax?
MS. BAUTISTA.
I mean,
252
SEN. ANGARA.
subject to value-added tax because all goods and services are subject
to value-added tax, Mr. Chair.
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. ANGARA.
I know we are covered by VAT but Im-So you paid VAT on those transfers to the
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. ANGARA.
iyon.
253
SEN. ANGARA.
Pero sa
Pero
Oho.
So you accept.
Yes.
254
SEN. ANGARA.
So ano iyong--
255
SEN. ANGARA.
tingin nyo, what is your opinion na bakit kayo kinukuha nung mga tao,
256
withdraw the money from the bank, change the money in the bank,
and then give it to whoeverthe junket operator or the casino owner,
et cetera? Why do they have to go through you?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, I really do not know. Maybe kasi
baka mabilis ho kami mag-deliver at saka mataas ho ang aming
conversion pagka nag-aano kami.
SEN. ANGARA.
257
258
MR. WONG.
259
Well, anyway, Mr. Chair, Id like to point out, baka marami na rin
na nahihilo dito sa mga numero, but according to the earlier testimony
of Philrem, there are three beneficiaries ho, iyong Weikang Xu, iyong
Solaire, at saka Eartern Hawaii. Ayon naman ho sa testimonya ni Mr.
Kim Wong, he agrees that there was 29 million to Solaire and $21
million to Eastern Hawaii.
Philrem, what do you say to this allegation of Mr. Wong that mayroon
pang naiwan sa inyong $17 million?
MS. BAUTISTA.
Dineliber
260
Okay.
mayroong
MS. BAUTISTA. Mayroon po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ano yung dokumento, may receipt ganoon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo. Iyong ano, parang ano lang muna
SEN. ANGARA.
Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA.
261
disputed.
Back to Mr. Wong, sabi nyo willing kayo mag-cooperate, so we
appreciate that ho at iyong pagpunta nyo dito.
Sabi nyo willing ho kayo, tama ba, na ibabalik nyo ho iyong
$4.6 million na nasa cage or cashier ng Eastern Hawaii?
262
Babayaran ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Meaning, pag ni-require kayo na ibalik, ibabalik
nyo ho?
MR. WONG. Babayaran ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ah, 450 million dollars ho iyon o pesos?
263
Wala na
pong magtitiwala.
SEN. ANGARA. Naintindihan ko. Naintindihan ko.
MR. WONG. Kung ngayon, sinabi di ba na ano, nakaw, ibabalik
ko po iyon, 450 po/cbg
264
MR. WONG.
ibabalik ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo. Ang hindi ho nababanggit pa yata, kung
hindi ako nagkakamali, Mr. Chair, alam na natin saan napunta iyong
pera, pero dito ho, for example, iyong 550 million natalo doon sa
Solaire--Solaire ho ba iyon, sa Solaire natalo?
MR. WONG. Hindi po, sa Midas po.
SEN. ANGARA. Sa Midas?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Magkano ang kinita ninyo ho doon?
MR. WONG.
kumikita. Actually po, sir, itong negosyo namin napakahirap po. Kami
ho ang nagpapautang, naniningil pa ho kami, kami pa ang nagdadala
ng player, bihira ho ang taong nakakaintindi. Akala mo napakadaling
kumita ng pera diyan sa casino.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. At saka ito, ganitong pera hindi ko gagawin ito kasi
malaki pa ang negosyo ko po kaysa dito.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. Opo.
265
SEN. ANGARA.
Ang
266
MR. WONG.
kang isang kuwarto po, kuha kang isang kuwarto, kumuha kang
sampung mesa, ang share ng sa Solaire po is 52.5 sa Solaire. Kami
po, 47.5. So, pag nanalo kaming isang milyon, sa kanya iyong 52.5,
sa Solaire. Sa amin po ang 47.5. Iyan ang sharing po pero kami po
ang nagbabayad ng commission, kami ang nagbabayad ng hotel nila,
kami ang nagbabayad ng ticket nila po.
SEN. ANGARA.
sumusugal po?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Kasi sabi ninyo nga, in your words, kayo iyong
bangka.
MR. WONG. Opo, pero sagot din ho namin pag natalo po, kami
po din ang magbabayad sa Solaire.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Sino ba ang bangka?
MR. WONG. Kung junket po, dalawa ang bangka po, Solaire ho
at saka iyong junket operator po.
SEN. ENRILE. Sa junket, sino ang bangka?
MR. WONG. Solaire po at saka kami po.
267
268
SEN. ENRILE.
Pero kapag
269
270
MR. WONG.
Sila po diretso
kausap sa Pagcor ho. So, iyong dealer, big boss(?), lahat po sa akin
iyon, gastos ko po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. So, 26.5 ang kinikita nyo, percent?
MR. WONG. Hindi.
SEN. ANGARA. So, magkano ang kita nyo ho?
MR. WONG.
Uh-huh.
271
272
MR. WONG.
nagpapatakbo po.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay.
MR. WONG. Hindi ho ako nakikialam po diyan.
SEN. ANGARA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am done with my questions.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Enrile.
SEN. ENRILE. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You know, Mr. Chair, we have been hearing this case for three
days now and I have no problem about that. My problem is we have
asked all the questions already here about how the money was
divided, was washed and so forth. The question is, how much of this
money remained in the country and how much money was taken out of
the country.
respect to who are the hackers that we must guard against. They are
intruding into our system, financial system and I think we should have
a sense of worry about that.
Philrem is not the hacker, Mr. Kim Wong is not the hacker, according
to the evidence so far, neither is RCBC.
government
like
our
government,
country
like
our
country,
273
Bangladesh.
Who are the hackers and who are their agents that
brought out the money that pertained to the hackers and their backers
outside of the country?
Are we
274
SEN. ENRILE.
who got a piece of this cake. But we do not know who prepared the
cake, how it was baked, and whether it is going to cause some more
problems for the country in the future. And we need to legislate on
this.
So can any of the people in the government answer this
question? Do we have any idea who were the hackers?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. ESPENILLA.
Governor Espenilla?
Mr. Chairman, we have no ideas as to who
you
please
speak
louder?
Because
although
this
MR. ESPENILLA.
SEN. ENRILE.
THE CHAIRMAN.
275
MS. ABAD.
clearly to me?
MS. ABAD.
was committed and who committed it. But it is no longer within our
jurisdiction to investigate that aspect, Your Honor, the hacking aspect.
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.
Why not?
SEN. ENRILE.
276
MS. ABAD.
they taken any initiative to ask the Chinese government to identify Mr.
Ding Zhize and Mr. Gao and all the caboodles that are gambling here?
Have you taken the initiative to involve the diplomatic service to ask
their counterpart?
MS. ABAD.
We havent
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.
we just learned of these things only recently or just now. But with this
information coming in, well try to find out, Your Honor. Well try to
gather more information pertaining to these persons, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.
characters that were mentioned by Mr. Kim Wong here and all the
names bandied around?
MS. ABAD.
No.
277
SEN. ENRILE.
when Mr. KimI asked him and it entered my mind that maybe, Mr.
Ding, is the center of the whole thing. Do you agree? Do you disagree?
Or do you not give any importance of these names?
MS. ABAD.
SEN. ENRILE.
bank, this agent, that agent, this sugarol, that sugarol, what is that?
We know that already. We have internal laws but they have broken it
through a new technology that perhaps was an ABC to the hackers but
it is very esoteric to us.
Now, I am addressing this to you because you are a part of this
present government. What has that government done to be concerned
278
demonstrate the fact that the non-inclusion of the casino sector in the
coverage of the AMLA is a big gap in our anti-money laundering
regime. Had the casino sector been included in the coverage of the
AMLA, probably all these transactions by the junket operators
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.
SEN. ENRILE.
279
MS. ABAD.
requested assistance from us, from the Central Bank of the Philippines,
from the AMLC to recover their money
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.
requested
SEN. ENRILE.
the AMLC are part of the government of the Philippines. And since the
Bangladesh government has requested assistance both from the
Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas and the Anti-Money Laundering Council,
then that is what we are doing right now. We are trying to identify
where all these stolen funds have gone.
SEN. ENRILE.
SEN. ENRILE.
280
But is the bulk of the 81 million still in the country or it has passed
through our banking system and out of the Philippines?
MS. ABAD.
Yes.
And it would appear that the money is still with
operator moved that money from the Philippine banking system and
out of it?
MS. ABAD.
have a way to know that because they are not reporting to the AMLC.
Their transactions are not reported to the ALMC precisely because they
281
are not covered persons. They are not covered by the provisions of the
AMLA and they have no obligations to report their transactions to the
AMLC, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.
do that, Your Honor, because they are not covered by the AMLA, Your
Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.
282
customer
identification,
record-keeping
and
reporting
of
pending bills which we filed with the Sixteenth Congress and I think
that is a perfect draft for the inclusion of the casino in the coverage of
the law. So, I think if this present Congress wont be able to approve
the pending bills, probably the next Congress, we will propose the
same bill for consideration of the Congress, Your Honor.
283
SEN. ENRILE.
Just a minute.
country?
MR. DOOC. Mr. Chairman, this is Manny Dooc of the council.
Mr. Chairman, Your Honors, I would like to inform the committee
that we have started our discussion with the local Chinese Embassy
yesterday.
concerning the junkets plus the names mentioned by Mr. Kim Wong,
we will pursue this meeting with them.
In other
284
China, sir.
SEN. ENRILE. Do you think China will condone operations like
these by their people? Is that your assumption? Dont you know that
gambling in China is prohibited? And if you write their prime minister
and plead with him to check the background of Mr. Ding and Mr. Gao,
they will probably be interested to find out who these people are who
are gambling in the Philippines.
MR. DOOC. Yes, Your Honor. We are thankful for that cue.
SEN. ENRILE. Do you want?
MR. DOOC. Yes.
SEN. ENRILE.
Do your
jobs.
MR. DOOC.
Honors.
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SEN. ENRILE. But how many hours have passed since February
5 and you are still thinking about the action you are going to do. Is
that the degree of efficiency of government that we should claim?
MR. DOOC.
very recently, in fact, I think, from the report of the casinos, which we
received yesterday about these junket operators and players. And this
is further reinforced by the testimony given to us by Mr. Wong and we
are thankful for this development.
SEN. ENRILE. You did not believe the sworn testimony of the
people talking here for three days, for two days at least before this
day?
testimonies going around in this room? All this time you have to wait
for Mr. Kim to come here and tell us these things only to be shocked
that after all, hes not, according to his narration of facts, he was not
the one the center of the game but only a part player. Then he was
the one who mentioned the two names, Mr. Gao and Mr. Ding, that
even before you heard those names, you have the name, Mr. Weikang
Xu. You could have at least sent a communication who is Mr. Weikang
Xu in China, what province does he come from, what region of China,
is he a member of the Politburo or what?
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Opo.
P200,000 po minimum.
287
Hindi.
Wala po.
Kaya lang po
SEN. OSMEA.
P1,000?
MR. WONG. Opo, opo. /. . .(nam)
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MR. WONG. ... Opo. Opo. Kasi po pagka nasa Soloire, hindi
ba, napakaganda po.
SEN. OSMEA. Oo.
MR. WONG. So parangmaraming player, maarte po, hindi ba?
Kapag dinala mo po sa Midas, hindi ba, hindi naman-SEN. OSMEA. Simple lang.
MR. WONG. Mahirap sabihin po. Pero tignan nyo naman, iyong
casino po ng Solaire at saka Midas ang laki ng diperensya po.
SEN. OSMEA.
Opo.
Opo.
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290
Sinugal ko.
291
Okay.
Six times.
292
All right.
dollars, on the first day nagiging 1.5 million, pwede ko nang i-cash
iyong 500,000?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Pwede ko nang iuwi iyon?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. Ngayon, natalo ako the following day
ng 500,000, hindi pa ako makakauwi kasi hindi pa ako nakaka-six
times?
MR. WONG. Yes, po. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. At the end of the week, naka-six times na ako,
natalo ako ng 500,000, maka-cash ko iyong remaining 500,000.
MR. WONG. Opo, pag-six times mo na roll.
SEN. OSMEA.
hindi ho sa casino?
MR. WONG. Hindi ho.
SEN. OSMEA.
293
Okay.
All right.
sabihin na hindi pwedeng i-launder sa casino kasi dead chips iyan. No,
hindi pwede iyan.
ang junket agent, hindi ko kailangan mag six times roll over. I dont
even have to bet.
MR. WONG. Maari po.
SEN. OSMEA. Huh?
MR. WONG. Maari po.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Halimbawa, pumasok ako doon may one
million dollars ako, sasabihin ko sa junket agent, Ito na iyong 100,000
mo, i-cash mo ulit iyong nine?
MR. WONG. Possible po lahat, sir. Possible po lahat.
SEN. OSMEA. Hindi lang possible, doable, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Siguro po.
294
Okay.
Okay.
295
296
whether they would want to jot down the serial numbers, Mr.
Chairman, for their own protection.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Now, example, if somebody wanted an
enormous amount of cash, like $10, $15 million, I dont think RCBC
would have $15 million dollars in cash lying around, hindi ba? All right.
From whom would they source that?
changers?
MR. R. TAN. Money changers, maybe from other banks as well.
SEN. OSMEA. Today, you got the bank and you got the nonbanks like the remittance companies.
297
SEN. OSMEA.
298
SEN. OSMEA.
Anything.
trades outside the banking system is also not visible to the Bangko
Sentral, so we dont have numbers for that, Mr. Chairman.
SEN. OSMEA. Dont you want numbers for that?
MR. ESPENILLA.
better the size of that market and considering the discussion here, it
seems to be already a fairly deep market because the transactions are
large.
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300
MR. ESPENILLA.
Mr. Chairman.
SEN. OSMEA. Or probably? You know, anything is possible.
MR. ESPENILLA. The economy is certainly growing, therefore
its probable.
SEN. OSMEA. All right.
All right. I think Ill suspend my questions.
Thank you, Governor.
THE CHAIRMAN.
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