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AcceptableExternalNozzleLoadscalculationforPressure
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IamapipingstressengineercurrentlydevelopingacompanyprocedureAcceptableNozzleLoadsforProcess
Equipment.Weneedthisprocedurebecauseinthepastwehaveseenequipmentsuchastanksandvessels
suppliedwithoutanyallowableexternalnozzleloads,withunreasonablylowallowablenozzleloadsandwith
zeroallowableexternalnozzleloads.Thisprocedureismeanttoobligethepotentialequipmentsuppliersto
followstandardsandgoodindustrypracticeandsupplyrobustequipmentcapableofwithstandingreasonable
pipingloadswiththeminimumvaluesindicatedinthisprocedure.
Anotheruseofthisdocumentistoallowpipingstressanalysttoapprovenozzleloadsthatarebelowthose
specifiedinthedocumentwithoutfurthervendorapprovalorFEAanalysis.
InmypastexperienceIhavecomeacrossmanydifferentcompanystandardswherevesselallowablenozzle
loadswerecalculatedbasedonsomeempiricalformulae(suchasinattachment)andtankallowablenozzle
loadsweregiveninatabularformwithoutanyexplanationonhowtheywerecalculated.Inmanycases
providedvaluesandformulaedifferedquitesubstantiallyanditsnotclearformewhetherdifferentsafety
factors,nozzleflexibilitiesorapproacheswereuse.
IhavedoneresearchreadingagainSectionVIIIDiv.2API650,someASMEpapers,forumsetc,butcouldnot
findanyuniversalruleforcalculatingminimumacceptableallowablenozzleloads.
Myquestionishowtocalculateminimumallowableloadsimposedbyexternalpipingontankandvessel
nozzlessotheywillbereasonablyhightonotcreateaproblemforpipestressanalystsanddesignersandat
thesametimeguaranteeacceptableandsafelevelofalocalstress?
Pleaseprovideyouropinionordirectmetoareliablesource.Thanks.
Cheers,
Vikoll
Vikoll......anexcellentquestion!
In1977,whileatanancientcompanycalledStone&WebsterinBoston,Mass,Iwasgivenvirtuallythesame
taskforNuclearPowerequipment.Thetaskwasreassignedoverandovertonewengineeringpersonnelandit
outlivedatleast30yearsintheengineeringmechanicsdivision.
Therearenohardandfastrules...
Manycompaniesdeveloptablesofreferenceloads......tobegiventothevesselfabricatoratthetimeof
purchase.Theseloadsareusedatthetimeofpipingcompletionandstressanalysisto"prequalify"thenozzle.
Therehavebeenmanythreadsonthisforumregardingthissubject.
Goodluck.....pleasekeepusinformedaboutyourfinaldecision!
http://www.astforum.com/ast_forum_tree.asp?master...
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18641/allowablen...
http://www.engtips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=75687
http://www.lixanindustries.com/engineering/info/lo...
http://www.pipingsoft.com/bbs/viewthread.php?actio...

Iamnotthefanofnozzleloadsbecauseitismisconceptioninthefirstplace,evenourcompanyandmany
othercompanieshavetableandformulaforit.
Questionis:whatarethoseloads?sustained?thermal?operating?Ihaven'tseenanycompanywelldefine
whatitis.
InCAESAR,sustainedandthermalloadswillbecomparedwithallowables,notoperating.Youmayhavemore
thermalloadsthensustained,viseverso.Sustainedstressmayfailbutthermalstresswillpass,viseverso.And
whenyourunthelocalstressanalysis,eitherWRC107orFEA,youneedtoidentifywhichissustained,whichis
thermal,becausetheyhavedifferentallowablestressperDiv2,Part5.Anylocalstressanalysisbyusing
"operatingloads"hasnotmuchmeaningperB31.3orDiv.2sincebothcodesrequireseparationofsustained
(includingpressure)andthermalloads,andthencomparewiththespecificallowables.
ManypipestressengineersIhaveseen,donotunderstandthesignificantdifferencebetweensustainedand
thermalloads.Theywillgivemenozzle"operatingloads"formetorunlocalstressanalysis.Ikickitbackand
askthemtoidentify"sustained"and"thermal"fromCARSARIIoutput.Idon'tneedanyoperatingloads.
Pipestressengineerswillclaimtheirloadswillbewithinthetableorformula.Iamjustlaughingandwouldnot
wanttoarguewiththem.Aretheytreattheseloadsas'operating"loads?Mostlikely,buttheymisswhatcode
says.
Igiveourloadtableandformulatovesselvendor,andtellthemtheseare"sustainedloads"sotheycanonly
comparewith1.5S,not3S,foraconservativenozzledesign.
Youwillseesomevendorscomparewith2S,3S,orwhatever.Thetruthis,aslongasvendorprovides
calculation,regardlesswhatallowablestresstheyuse,manyvesselengineersjustletitgo.Noonedareto
bother.
So,whatarethenozzleloadsyouwanttodefine?Sustainedoroperating?

Ideally,thevessel/tankdesignercalculatesthestiffnessandunloadeddeflectionofthenozzles,reportsthatto
thepipingdesigners,whocalculatetheloads,andthoseloadsarethenusedtochecknozzlestressesbythe
vessel/tankdesigner.Inpractice,thisisnotoftendone.
Ifyouspecifyasetofloadsbasedonnozzlesizewithouttakingstiffnessintoaccount,itisnotsoclearthatyou
areaccomplishinganything.Asmalldiameterthickwallvesselwilleasily"pass"thenozzleloadcalculations,
butitisthetypeofverystiffnozzlethatwillinrealitygeneratethehighestloads.Alargediameterthinwall
tankwillbemostlikelytofailthecalculation,yetitisalsothemostflexiblenozzlethatisleastlikelyto
experiencethoseloads.Thenthesolutionto"fix"thatnozzlewillinvolvemakingitstiffer,whichwillactually
increasestheloadsonit.
Alsokeepinmindthatforaverticaltank,therecanberadialdeflectionofnozzles,verticaldeflection,and
rotation,evenifthereisnoappliednozzleload.Onalargetank,theradialdeflectioncanbeoveraninch.Also
keepinmindthattheinformationavailabletocalculatedeflectionsandstressesisratherlimitednsomecases.
jseng123,
Ireadwithinterestyourreply.Inparticular"ManypipestressengineersIhaveseen,donotunderstandthe
significantdifferencebetweensustainedandthermalloads.".IfthisisthecasethenthosePipeStress
Engineers"youhaveseen"arenotreallypipestressengineersexceptpossiblybynameatthatparticular
Company.Iftheydonotknowthefundamentaldifferencebetweensustainedandthermalloadsthenhaveno
rightcallingthemselves"pipestressengineers"andareearningmoneyfraudulently.Ithinkyourquoteisabit
"tonqueincheek"andratheroffensivetomostreputablePipeStressEngineersbutImustaddtherearean
increasingnumberwhomcouldfallunderyourcriticismbutagaintheyarenot"real"pipestressengineers
exceptbynameonly.
jtseng123yourdescriptionofthedifferentpipingcategorizationofthestress:sustain,thermal,etchaving
differentallowablelevelswhenevaluatedtothestressclassificationpertainingtoASMESectionVIII,Division2,
Part5iscompletelyanddemonstrablyincorrect.
ASMESectionVIII,Division,Part5,Table5.6saysthatthelocalmembranestressesfromexternalloads
(withoutreferencetowhethertheycomefrompipingweightorrestrainedfreethermaldisplacement)aretobe

consideredprimarylocalmembraneandthelocalmembraneplusbendingstressesfromexternalloadsareto
beconsideredP+Q.
AnyonewhoisperformingaWRC107/537orWRC297evaluationandmakingdifferentstressclassification
dependingontheoriginofthepipingloadsisdoingitincorrectly.Inactuality,whenthepipingstressengineer
providesyouwithoperatingloads,theyareslightlymoreknowledgeableaboutthatCodethanyouare.
Quote(Table5.6,ASMESectionVIII,Division2,Part5)
ForVesselComponent=Anyshell,cylinders,cones,sphere,andformedheads,ForLocation=Near
nozzleorotheropening,ForOriginofStress=Netsectionaxialforceand/orbendingmoment
appliedtothenozzle,TypeofStress:LocalMembrane=PL,Bending=Q,andPeak=F

Accordingly,fromTable5.3(assumingthatyouareusingWRC107/537tocalculatethestressesintheshell),
youneedtoevaluateDesignLoadCombinations(1)P+Ps+D,(2)P+Ps+D+L,(3)P+Ps+D+L+T,etc(thereare
8DesignLoadCombinationsyouAREevaluatingALLofthem,right??).BasedonthedescriptionfromTable
5.6(above),allofthepipingreactioncanbeconsideredtoexistaseitherDorD+TinDesignLoad
Combination(2)or(3)andIwouldarguebasedonTable5.6,theyareallD.Therefore,D(orD+T)arethe
coincidentloadsonthestructure.TheymaybedesignoroperatingtheCodeissilentonthat(forthetime
beinghopefullyIcangetthatchangedforthe2015Edition).Youwon'tgowrongifyouusethenormal
operatingloads.
However,notethatthecheckforPLisverydifferentfromthecheckforP+Q.PLusesthestressvalueofa
singleapplicationoftheloads.P+Qusesthestressrangeinthedetermination.FortheP+Qratchetingcheck,
youneedtodoawholelotmoreworktofigureoutwhattheoperatingcycleis,sothatyoucandeterminethe
stressrange.Ifyouaren'tdoingthis,thenyouaredoingitWRONG.
TGS4,Ican'targuewithyou,asIhavesaidveryearlyPart5istoocomplicate,untilIretire,IwillstillsayI
don'tknowwhatitis,andmanyvesselengineersarenobetter.Why?becauseitisnotneededfordailytask.
Twocommonlyusedprograms,CAESARIIforpipestressandPVEliteforpressurevessel,botharedesigned
bythesameCOADEcompany.AssumingtheyareprogrammedperDiv2,Part5correctly,theyneedyouto
separatesustainedload,thermalload,occasionalload(windorseismic)inordertorunWRC107,anditwill
outputstressintoP,PL+PB,andPL+PB+Q,andcomparedwithS,1.5Sand3S,verysimple.Thereisnoroom
toinput"operatingloads".
Accordingtotheprogram,youcanfailinPL+PBifyouhavelargesustainedloadbutPL+PB+Qwillpassifyou
havesmallthermalload.Allkindsofthingswillhappenifyouplayaroundtheloads.Ifthisprogramiswrong,
thensomanycompaniesaroundtheworldusingitarejustwrongfordecades.
Yourexplanationisveryprofound,butIhaven'tseenanypressurevesselengineersorpipestressengineers
willingtogointothatdetailstofullyunderstandwhatitis.Thecodetotoodeep,letexpertdoingtheirjob,and
weengineersjustdoaquickanddirtycalculationbyrunningWRC107withseparateloadsfromCAESARII
output,butneveroperatingloads.Mostcompaniesaroundtheglobedoingthesamething.Ineverprovide
operatingloadstovendors.Ialwaysseparateintosustained,thermal,andoccasionalloadsdirectlyfrom
CAESARIIbecauseplayingWRC107for2decades,Iknowoperatingloadscanpass,butwhenloadsare
separatedintoSustainedandthermal,PL+PBcanfailandrequiresadditionalreinforcement.
Thetopicforthispostishowtospecifysomenozzleloadssovendorwillprovideadditionalreinforcementin
additiontopressureareareplacementpercode.Iftheloadsisdefineasoperatingloads,PVElitecan'trun
WRC107.However,itwillbeOKforCompressbecauseithasonlyoneloadinput,doesnotcarewhatload
categoryis.IdonotthinkCompressisprogrammedcorrectlyatleastforonething:allowablestressforwind
andseismiccango20%higher,andCompresswon'trecognizeit.
Letmethankeveryresponderforprovidedexpertise.Inanengineeringfieldonecanlearnevenfromdifferent
opinionsifagoodengineeringjudgementisapplied.
AtthesametimeIwouldaskagainaquestionaboutacceptablebenchmarkallowablenozzleloadsforPV,
heatexchangersandAPI650tanksthatcanbefoundindesignstandardsofmanywellestablishedEPC
companies.Icannotadoptanyofthesewithoutaclearunderstandingwheretheseallowableloadsarecoming
fromandwhatformulae/approacheswereusedasabasisforitscalculations.
Itismyunderstandingthattheseloadshavetobeconservativeenoughtoguaranteeacceptablestresslevel
regardlessoftheloadtypeandreasonablyhightonotcauseatroubleforpipingdesignersandstress
engineers.

IpersonallychecknozzlestressusingFEAsoftwaresuchasNozzleProbyPRGorANSYS.Formeronerequires
inputofSUS,OPEandOCCloadsfromASMEbenchmarkedpipestressanalysissoftware.IhavetouseFEAto
provethatpipingdesignissafeeventhoughthemanufacturerprovidedunrealisticallylowallowableloadsor
didnotprovideany
Iwanttoestablishdesigncriteriawithloadsinatabularformforvarietyofsizes,ratingsandmaterials(CS/SS)
thatwillbesubmittedasabasesfordesigntoequipmentsuppliers.Ibelievethatthiscanbeaccomplished
withsomehelpfromtheindustryexpertsandaskyouagaintoprovideyouropinionsonthis.
ThanksandCheers
Vikoll
Vikoll,
NozzleProisinlinewiththeinputWRC107inPVElite.THERMAL=OPESUSthatNozzleProwillbeableto
extract.ButaccordingtoTGS4,theyareincorrect.However,manycompaniesandvendorshavenobetter
cheapandquicktool,andCAESARIIdoesproducesSusandThermalloads,wewillstillusethemasinputto
WRC107.
Theproblemofloadtableorformulais:itmissestoaddressthetemperature.Applyingthesameloadsto100F
vesselandto1000Fvesseldoesnotmakesense,knowingthatitshallbepipestressengineer'sresponsibility
toprovideadditionalflexibilityinhightempservice.
MjCroninhasprovidelinkswithsomeformula
Oursisnobetter(forvessel):
150#300#
all3forces(lb)=300xD,nozzledia.ininch
all3moment(ftlb)=57.8xD^2+2.6D+9.8
600#2500#,increasedby84%.
Thesearetreatedasoperatingloads.ThatcomestotrickypartinNozzleProorWRC107inPVElite.IfSUShas
noinput,theentireloadbecomethermal.
SomeofmyvendorsusePVElite,soIaskthemtoinputasSUS,thatwillgenerateaveryconservativedesign.
Perhapsa50/50splitisabetterchoice.
Myotherrecommendation:eventhenozzlejustmeettheminimumcodereinforcementrequirements,itcan
takecertainamountofpipingloadsdueto1.5Sand3Sor2SyhighlocalallowablestressperDiv.2,not"zero"
asclaimedbyvendor.Whynotaskingvendortoprovideadditionalreinforcement,says20%,30%beyond
minimumcoderequirementsinsteadoftableandformula.
ImustagreewithDSB123.
Quotejtseng123:
ManypipestressengineersIhaveseen,donotunderstandthesignificantdifferencebetweensustainedand
thermalloads.
Unquote.
jtseng123Yourfirmmustemploysomerubbishstressengineers.Perhapstheyarejustsoftwaremonkeys?
Thefundamentalneedforclearallowablenozzleloadsistofacilitateparallelengineeringtoatightschedule.
Forexample,confidentdesignofalongleadvessel,priortostressanalysisoftheconnectedpipe.
Inthisrespect,whatisrequiredisasetofrealisticloadstobeusedasmaximabythestressengineerand
minimabytheequipmentdesigner.Reliableloadsformostcommonequipmentconfigurationsareprovidedin
theNorwegiandocument,NorsokR001.Thisisavailablefreeofchargeontheweb,andhasbeenusedin
NorthSeaareadesignforabout20years.
IagreewithTGS4.Ithinkjtseng123'sopiniononnozzleloadanalysisislittleoutofdate.Severalpapershave
beenpublishedbyvesselengineerssince89yearsagotonotusethesustained/thermalclassificationsinB31
codesonvesselnozzleloadanalysis.Theysuggestedtreatingmembranestressesdevelopedfromallnozzle
pipingloads,regardlessofwhethertheiroriginissustainedorthermal,betreatedasprimaryforthepurposes
ofevaluatingthecorrespondingshellstresses.
TryNORSOKStandardR001Para5.1.5.NORSOKstandardsareavailabletodownloadforfreefrom:
http://www.standard.no/en/

Letmethankallparticipantsforprovidedguidanceandopinions.IdownloadedacopyNorsokR001butstill
haveaspread+/100%forloadsrecommendedbyvariouscompanystandards.MypersonalopinionNorsok
R001allowableloadsareveryconservativeandmaybedifficulttocomplywithbyconventionalpipingdesign
means.Ifyouhaveanyotherthoughts/suggestionsorcanshareyourvaluableexperienceyourinputwillbe
trulyappreciated.
Cheers
Vikoll

IdisagreeaboutNorsokbeingconservative.
Thepressurevesselallowablesareamathmodelofthetabulatedvaluesusedforyearsbymajorcontractors.
Allowablesonpumpsareverygenerous,upto10xAPI610,andequallywithcompressorsat4xNEMASM23.
LikeIsaidpreviously,NorsokhasbeenusedinNorthSeadevelopmentforabout20yearswithoutcomplaintso
farasIamaware.

Pleasedonotforgetthatthearbitarynozzleloadsissuedbycontractorcompaniesorstandardsarefor
communicationbetweenpipestressanalystsandvesselmanufacturers.Therefore,thevaluesaretargetting
bothsidestocomply,andaretheopinionofthatcompanycompanyorstandardstomaketheproject
equipmentworkableandreliable.Insomeindustries,asindicatedbyC2itthehigherloadsareselected,and
thesecomefromtheexperienceofthecontractorcompanyinthatfield.Thereforethereisnorightorwrong
nozzleload,buttheimplementationsometimesisverydifficultonthepipingsideiftheselectednozzleloads
aresmall.
Ihavetoagreewithjtseng123ontheevaluationoftheloads.Thecontractorcompanyshouldprovidethe
acceptableloadforeachloadcase(Ihaveseenonecompanyisdoingit).Isawmanyengineersusethe
allowableloadsintheirfavoursincethereisnoproperdefinitionoftypeoftheallowableload.Someengineers,
thisincludesmeifIdonothavethevesseltodesigninadditiontothepiping,usetheallowableloadsonthe
conservativeside.Butthismakesthevesselmoreexpensivethanrequired.
Believmeifyoudonotseethetypeandtheallowableloadinthespecification,thecontractorcompanyorits
engineersdonotknonwhattheyaredoingortheyarenotexperienced.Thismakesthejobverydifficultifthe
pipingandvesselsideengineersarenotexperiencedanddonotknowwhattoaskandwhomtoask.Sothe
jobsmostofthetimeslefttotheriskanalysisofthecontractorcompanies.
Kindregards,
IbrahimDemir
Somecases,theownercompanieswantvesselssurvivewithoutrepairalotlongerthanthepiping.Inthis
scenariotheownerorcontractorcompanyrequireslargerallowableloads(perhapswithhighershellwall
thickness)onthenozzlestodesignthevesseltomeetthisrequirement.Sowecannotseethisdirectlyfromour
officeunlessweinvolveinthistypeapplicationsorgetinformationaboutthereasonofficialyorunofficialy.
PleaseforgivemeIdidnotcheckthespellinginmypreviouscomment.
Regards,
IbrahimDemir
Finally,saplantiunderstandswhatIamtalkingabout.

PressureVessels
Specialpurposepressurevesselsandpressuretestingsystems

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