Rev.

Lawrence Interview

Cheryl Lawrence (CL): How many pastors have agreed to do this?

Sarah Arney (SA): My goal is 16, so far about eight.

CL: Okay. Have you tried Jen Anderson at Cavalry in Durham? Shell do it I bet.

SA: One of the things I was trying to do was not necessarily talk to everybody who
usually talks.

CL: Well shes got a reconciling church. Her church is full of gays.

SA: They also made a documentary that she was in.

CL: Okay, okay.

SA:
But I would like to start this off by playing you something that I heard in a plenary
session at General Conference. This was one of the bishops who was starting a series
of group discussions, so this ishere it is:
Bishop: the Council of Bishops a couple of years ago was having table
conversations about some of our most challenging issues in the life of the church and
the several cultures that we represent around the globe. One of our colleague bishops
at the table where I was sitting said, We all need to take a step back. There was a
pregnant pause, as you might imagine, not knowing what would be said next by this
particular bishop, who Ill not throw under the bus as we speak. He said, Why dont we
try telling our story, before we take our stand. I found those words memorable, and I'm
grateful for them to this day, no matter what the subject is before us. So, would you see
this as a time for you to tell your story, and you dont have to give every detail of your
life, but as it relates relevantly to this conversation that weve been engaged in over
many decades around human sexuality. And as you begin that, the statement is coming,
that ought to be available at the heart, but think about telling a story, telling your story,
before you take your stand.

SA: So, I felt like that was very relevant to the conversation that we will be having today.
That is really more of the spirit of what this conversation should be about instead of
trying to establish sides and pit them against each other. So here we go. Would you like
to state your name, your occupation, and a bit about yourself?

CL: Cheryl Lawrence, Im the pastor here at Aldersgate. Ive only been the pastor here
since January. I came in into a distressed situation where the pastor had left midyear, so
I don't know a whole lot about this congregation yet, only having been here a few
months. But I've been a pastor now for 11 years. I graduated from Duke Divinity. Im
married, I have two adult children, who just got married last year, both of them.

SA: Congratulations

CL: Thank youwhat else?

SA: I guess thats it. So, can you tell me about your call to ministry? A question you may
get a lot.

CL:
I used to, yeah. So, I was a newspaper reporter. We moved to North Carolina
when my children my husband a job working for Duke, and my children were very
small. I wanted to stay home with them so I did that and eventually wanted part-time
work. At the time, we did not go to church although I was raised in the church. I took a
job as basically a church secretary in a Methodist Church and got very involved in the
church, took my family with me. Eventually felt a call to ministry, I guess. At the time I, of
course did not think that's what it was. I felt like I wanted to get trained to do something
beyond be a church secretary. I assumed that would be the business manager of a
large Methodist Church, and so I applied to Duke and to my shock was accepted. As
time went by decided that it was a call to be a pastor. I'll say that with great fear and
trembling at the time because United Methodist pastors are required to itinerate,
meaning we go where the Bishop sends us. I was terrified by the prospect of being
separated from my family, but as it turned out I was never separated from my family, so
that was good.
So, what was your question? That was my call, so my call was constantly being
sort of attuned as I was in Divinity school. It wasn't until my probably my last semester
that I was able to say yes, I'm called to be a pastor, I think, but it's not too late God for
you to change your mind. (laughter) So, anyway

SA: Thank you. So how important would you say that your culture is in shaping your
religious beliefs? So, this could be living in the American South, being an American,
more locally, whatever that means to you, the culture around you.

CL:
As to shaping my religious beliefs? Mine or people in general?

SA: Yours.

CL:
I would say not very important, that I am shaped and have been shaped by the
religious practices in which I engage, spiritual disciplines. Of course, my church
practices Wesleyan practices. That has shaped my beliefs more than, certainly more
than culture.

SA: So here is: Do you have a stance on the debate over LGBT persons in the church,
and can you describe that for me?
CL:
Well I've come to a church that voted itself to be a reconciling church back in the
1990s. As far as I know, there are no gays in this church currently, but the church made
a decision to be welcoming, whatever that means. We did have a gay man who was
attending here for several Sundays, and as he was exiting the church one Sunday he
said, Could I talk with you about maybe getting married to my partner here? and I told
him I'm not allowed to do that, and that was the last I saw of him. That was my first
experience as a pastor with we welcome gays, but. You know, for my way of feeling is if
I were fully going to fully welcome this man I would treat him like any other person so
yeah come let's talk about it, but couldn't do that. And that was really my first experience
of feeling like something was wrong in saying that we welcome gays we welcomeso it
felt like I was saying yeah, we welcome you but, not completely. So, Im still thinking
about that. So, as a pastor, yeah, we, everyone is welcome but what does that welcome
entail? Because if that man had been heterosexual and said can my fianc and I come
and talk to you I would have said yes, sure, and then I would have made a decision
about whether or not to officiate at their wedding, but we couldnt even get that far
because the denomination says I'm not allowed to, so I dont.
I think my stance would be informed by when we moved here my daughter was
inactually we lived in Chapel Hilland my daughter was in fourth grade and
befriended a boy who lived behind us, and I can tell you that my husband and I knew
that little boy was gay long before he did. So, through that little boy I came to believe
that he was born that way. It wasn't something that he, it wasnt a choice that he made,
because as he grew up he was treated horribly by theeven in Chapel Hill which tends
to be somewhat liberal, the kids were very mean to him. My daughter was always upset
about it because he was her friend. The meanness got worse in middle school and high
school, and so I don't believe it was a choice that he ever made. If God created him that
way, what God creates is good.
So, I keep that in mind, and in my experience, limited experience, as a pastor of
gay people, has been that most of them were similarly treated as children and growing
up and maybe even as adults, and that it is not a choice that people would make, so.

SA: Alright, so, were going to go back in time a little bit. The language in this this, at
least in the United Methodist Church was established in the early 70s. So, growing up,
were you aware of either LGBT persons or the debate, and if you were how did people
talk about it, what you hear?

CL:
I was not, while I was raised Baptist and Presbyterian. So, I was not at all aware
of gays in church, I mean I just wasnt. And I was raised in Louisiana. So, the more, the
bigger issues, were race and gender in church when I was growing up. I was aware that
such a thing exists in high school. I went to Catholic high school, and actually I had a
friend or two who I was aware of that were probably gay but it didn't really impact the
way I thought about them. Certainly, in college I knew gay people and it just didn't really
impact the way I felt about them, and it didn't seem to impactyou know if they were
treated differently I just wasnt aware of it. I'm sure they were, but it just wasn't
something that was important to me.

SA: Was it talked about at all in your training as a pastor or when you were in seminary
or divinity school?

CL:
It mustve been, but I dont remember it, so it must not have been verywe did
talk about it some. I was in Dr. Stanley Hauerwas ethics class and it was talked about in
ethics class, but he had a way of reframing questions so that you just, that was so
completely different, that you didn't know how to answer anything.
For example, when we were on the topic of abortion, he reframed the question to
be what do we need to be as a church in order to welcome all children. That was the
way he reframed it. So, I think I remember him saying that homosexuality ought to be
handled on a case-by-case basis in terms of how the church should respond. But he
also framed it within a marriage, so his question, so he believed that marriage, the
purpose of marriage, was to provide a safe environment to raise children. I would say
that if you framed marriage within that in order to provide a safe place to raise children
that you would not exclude gays from that. He was very against the idea that you fall in
love and get married, because if that's the reason that you get married then when you
fall out of love that gives you a reason not to be married. So, if you reframe marriage
based on it being safe place to raise children then you have to have a different
conversation when you talk about divorce. I think that the conversations that we had
didnt really change my way of, I think I was probably still just didn't really think
about it, honestly.
So that was my training. Didn't talk about it in my local church when I was
layperson. It just didn't seem to be, to come up, and that's perhaps because the church
was in Chapel Hill, because boy, it came up in my field education church. So that would
be part of my training I suppose.
My field education church was Pleasant Green in Durham whose pastor, my
supervisor, was very liberal and very supportive of gays. I would say that a lot of his
church people were not. When I led the disciple Bible study there, and that Bible study
constantly got bogged down early on with people wanting to argue about it. My solution
was to say, You know, when we get to what Jesus said about homosexuality then were
going to discuss this, but until were going to set it aside.. Well that was me punting
because Jesus didnt say anything about it, but they didnt know that so they agreed to
that and we stopped having these constant arguments about it. For what it's worth, that
was my way, but we didn't have I mean I did have conversations with my supervisor
where he said, listen.
And he had a change of heart. He was actually at the church previously that I got
sent to as my first appointment. When he was at church he had a member who was
dying of AIDS and that members mother was a member of the, was also a member, and
she came to him when he was the new pastor there she said, I want to know how you
feel about homosexuality right now. He said Well, you know I think that as a church we
have to be tolerant. She said We are not as Christians called to be tolerant. We are
called to be compassionate and humble. He said That changed my whole thinking
about subject. He changed his whole stance on it because of that, and he did share
that with me, and caused me to think, yeah, were called to be compassionate and
humble. So, what does that look like when we talk about homosexuality? That did come
with my training, how about that?
SA: So how would you say, over the past 20 years, through your time as a pastor, would
you say the debate has changed, if you think it has, or evolved over time?

CL:
Well people, the side that wants full inclusion of LGBT has become more vocal
and more unwilling to simply be pushed aside. We now have retired Bishop, or the
bishops don't retire, we now have bishops, well I guess they are retired bishops theyre
still considered bishops though, doing services of union. They can't really be punished
for it, and that has given other pastors the courage now too. There's this upwelling in the
past four years, Id think, there's been much more upwelling of people who are willing to
put their ordinations on the line for something they believe in, and pastors who are
willing to come out of the closet and share the fact that they are gay. Maybe the whole
conversation is that they are practicing gay. So, I think that has changed. It has forced
the church to have to deal with it, to say were either going to bring these people to trial
or were not. So that has changed.

SA: You may have partially answered this question already, but Ill say it again. Has your
opinion of the debate or LGBT persons changed over time, you mentioned?

CL:
Clearly it has, over 20 years because that's the time that I was a parent and it
changed the most having actually been a parent rather than a pastor. Heres something
else I remember learning in Divinity school so we must've been talking about it: a
person's identity is located in their baptism, not in their sexual orientation. So that
changes the way that you think about so the gays that have been in my congregations
have already been baptized Christians. I've not ever been asked to baptize someone
who said they were openly gay, but I have had gays in my congregation that were
already baptized Christians. So, my attitude because of Divinity school, and because of
the conversations I had in field education, and as a parent, my attitude was, well theyre
Christians theyre Children of God.
Okay also, see all these things are coming back to me now. In Divinity school, I
took a trip called the METS, Middle East Travel Seminar. So, they picked divinity
students from five different seminaries, they chose five students from five different
seminaries, from each them there's 25 students, and they put them together with these
rich laypeople who paid for it, and then they took them all to the Middle East: Syria,
Lebanon, Israel, all that whole area. Duke was one of the schools and I was one of five
chosen, but so was the Southeast Baptist Theological Seminary was one of them,
McAfee which is a Baptist liberal seminary, Columbia was one of them, and Emery was
one of them. So, they threw us all together, and I was incensed that the people from the
Southeast Baptist Theological Seminary they had such conservative views, they were all
white men. They had such conservative views that included not only this intolerance of
gays but intolerance of women. They couldnt have cared less what I thought because I
was a woman. I can remember them having a heated conversation with one of the
young white men from Duke, and I leaned over the table and said, You know Jesus
didn't say a whole lot about gays, but he said a whole lot about greed and gluttony. Why
dont you guys go after fat pastors instead of gays?. They, like I said, they didnt care
what I said because I was a woman but that rendered them speechless momentarily.
(laughter) So that obviously had come out my training, because I was still in divinity
school.
Again, I have a feeling that the same people in the Methodist Church who are so
anti-gay, if you gave them half a chance would be anti-woman as well, and anti-anything
that is not a white male. I think that this whole election cycle is playing into this for me as
well. I am just sick and tired of white men wanting to call the shots with everything, in the
church, in the country, Im just tired of it.

SA: Thank you for sharing (laughter). So, you mentioned talking in your field education
church a bit about this issue with the Sunday School, but have you, and the churches
that youve been at, taken steps to discuss this issue?

CL:
Yes, although Ive only really been in one church who could discuss it without
getting upset about it, and we should discuss it even if we do get upset about it. We
discuss it in the context of Bible study. So, we will take what Paul said and take with the
Old Testament says about homosexuality, and discuss it from a standpoint of, was Paul
speaking into a cultural situation? If were going to because the letters of Paul are
canon, theyre a part of our canon, let's talk about all of the things that Paul says that we
grapple with, including the fact that women should not speak in church. I think that we
do have to struggle with it, but my own way of making peace with it has been to really
study the cultural context. Were these words said for all people for all time or did that
were they just addressing the situation?
Clearly you know, usually it's Paul's words about women that get put to me rather
than gays. I will always lift up to people who take the Bible literally, the inerrancy people,
and I'll say, Go to Luke 14 when Jesus says that unless you give up all your
possessions you cannot be my disciple. Those are Jesus's words, and so I want you to
tell me how you make peace with those words and how you are actually a disciple of
Jesus based on Jesus's own words, before you take Paul's words and throw them at
me. So, we take that into our Bible studies, and because our Bible studies have been
pretty much been people who accept female pastors, then they are willing to say that
there's a lot in Paul's letters that were influenced culturally. so, we have discussed it but
in Bible study.
I have brought it up in sermons occasionally. I did a preaching series with my last
church where they were, I encouraged them to write down questions to give me and I
would answer their questions. One of the questions is what is your stance on this
issue? And now that gay marriage is legal will we have these services at this church?
and you know basically, that was the question, and I have actually printed my answer on
our website not this church, that church. So, I said that the Methodists, this is where the
Methodists stand, this can only be changed by General Conference. Marriage though is
a legal contract, it does not require church to make it legal, and my own feelings about it
are that I'm perfectly fine with this law having been changed to make it legal, but were
not allowed to do the services of union in this church. Should it ever become legal to do
in the Methodist Church, I would still sit down with the congregation and have a
conversation, and want to reach some sort of consensus about it.

SA: How do you think being a Reconciling church, and I know you havent been here
very long, but especially this one has been reconciling for...

CL: A long time.

SA: A very long time, I found that surprising. How do you think that has changed their
life or your life now as the pastor, within the wider United Methodist community or in the
community of Chapel Hill?

CL:
I don't know the answer to that. A couple people have told me the discussions
they had before they actually voted on it, and how the conversations were difficult. So,
some people fell that it's not the practice of homosexuality that was sinful, but rather the
promiscuity that they felt went with that lifestyle. One person told me that when she
shared that with the person who was talking that he had acted shocked. He felt that if
you were going to support the inclusion of gays that you had to accept a promiscuous
lifestyle. And I mean I could turn that around and say dont we do the same for
heterosexuals? We just look the other way, is all most churches do. So, I can't answer
how it changed them, other than they feel pretty strong, some of them feel pretty
strongly about it.
I had a woman in my office yesterday in fact who was asking me my feelings
about welcoming gays, and she started crying when she talked about how after she got
her divorce there was a gay man who had befriended her who was the best Christian
that she had ever known. It broke her heart to think that he might be rejected by a
church, but she did not have a good understanding of what reconciling congregation
means. Because again, I have to always tell people I'm not going to do a service of
union, Im not allowed to. She said, Well I thought that's what it meant to be reconciling
church, is that they could have that done here and I said No, it doesnt mean that,
sadly.

SA: So, I know that you said that you dont have many gay or LGBT persons in this
church at this point

CL: None that I know of.

SA: But perhaps in your previous congregations, when you had these discussions, were
there any LGBT persons a part of those conversations? And how did they contribute to
the discussion?

CL:
The answer is no. So, in my first church I did have gays, but they did not come to
Bible study. Then in my second appointment which is out in the country, there was one
gay person, who was the child, these have all been the children of members, so they
been pretty well accepted by the congregation themselves. He did not come to Bible
study. Then I was actually asked fill-in as an interim, because once I had, I had a church
that worshipped at five. It was my last church that actually I still have, I have them until
the end of June. They worship at five so I was asked to fill in the interim at various
churches like this one.
But previously I was asked to fill in for Jen Anderson when she went on maternity
leave, and that was my first experience in a church that had a lot of gay people. It
actually was a fabulous experience for me, because the people there are so energetic,
are so creative, and theyre sothey were wonderful people! I was actually envious of
this church where
 So, there was one Sunday where a young woman came to visit, and she was in
her teens or early 20s and sort of crept into the worship service. She had cuts you
could see cuts on both of her legs and both of her arms, and she just sort of sat by
herself. I watched that congregation in the minutes before the service started, come
around this girl. They actually got out of their seats and sat by her and sat behind her,
and I'm just watching this. She wanted to lift up a prayer concern during the time we
have for that in the worship service, and she was struggling with her words and I
watched them just lay their hands on her. And I thought, I want to be at a church like
this. So, it wasn't just that she was, whatever she was, she was gay, she came in with
her partner too. It wasn't just that she was gay, it was that she was hurt. I watched this
church be the church. And that was the first experience I had ever had as a pastor, ever
had, with someone who is not a member, that the church just came around, could feel
her pain because they were sensitive to it, and came around her. I just thought, Oh I so
want to be in a church like this. So, I don't know if this church is like that are or not, I
kind of doubt it, but anyway.
It was very moving experience for me and I thought at the time I would like to be
the pastor of a reconciling congregation. So, I was excited when I read this one was,
and then I come here Im like well, obviously, there were gays here at one time, but for
whatever reason theyre not here anymore, along with a lot of other people who were
members here. There was conflict here, and a lot of people left, the conflict had nothing
to, the conflict was over money and a building, not over anything else.

SA: So, what aspects of your faith or values do you particularly lean on or find important
when youre trying to have a conversation with someone or you're trying to facilitate a
conversation about this issue?

CL:
Yeah, compassion. The overarching message of the Gospels is compassion and
love and acceptance, frankly. I always remind people that Jesus only had harsh words
for the religious people, the religious officials. All his harsh words were reserved for the
religious officials who were being judgmental. So, I think compassion in the end,
scripturally speaking, what I just saidnot tolerance--compassion and humility.
Theres another thing I thought of many times in terms of General Conference. In
First Corinthians 13 when Paul is talking about love is patient love is kind it says that
love does not seek to have its own way. I thought, boy, if we just really lived that love
does not seek to have its own way how would that change everything in the United
Methodist Church? EverythingAnd people around the margins, I wanted to say that.
Jesus ministry was in particular to people at the margins, and I do consider LGBTQ to
be people at the margins.

SA: So, second to last question: If you were speaking to, or could ask a question of
someone who doesnt share the same viewpoint that you do, this could be a wide
variety of viewpoints, what would you ask them?

CL:
Well I have had conversations like this with friends who are not Methodist. I do
ask them what did Jesus say about this? What does first Corinthians 13 and what
do you find to be the overarching message of the Gospels? If people want to quote the
Old Testament to me, Ill also say and do you keep kosher? Do you follow all of those
rules in the Old Testament? Why just this one? But I do it in a respectful way, because I
said that the Bible is canon, and I don't think that we can just simply dismiss parts of it
and say well this is not my beliefs and so Im just going to throw this out. I dont think
we can do that. I do try to be patient, and honestly, it's not usually this issue, it's usually
women or war or something. Capital punishment or abortion, those are usually more the
issues that people want to engage on what does the Bible say about this.

SA:
I asked that question of some of the other pastors that Ive spoken to, and one of them
they would ask the questionI have to rephrase what they saidhow important would
you find a personal relationship with someone of who was LGBT to be and in your work
as a pastor, being able to speak about this issue, or to be able to minister to people?

CL:
Yeah well to get to know someone as a person, is to get to know them as a
person. I feel like that's what people who are so anti-gay or whatevermy assumption is
that they simply have never gotten to know someone as a person or they would not
perhaps feel exactly that way. Maybe that's not a good assumption, but certainly
someone that they love, maybe that's the better. Once that there is someone that they
love very much, it tends to change their thinking. So yeah, I think it's important. Im kind
of sad that there's nobody in this church like that, at least that I know of, you know, not
everybody, I dont know everybody very well yet.
SA: Well that concludes my official set of questions. Is there anything else that you
would like to say or that you wish I had asked you about?
CL:
I think it's all tied in with the greater question of the how we as Methodists view
Scripture. I mean that the people who are anti, or who want to keep the language in the
discipline the way it is, tend to have a view of Scripture that is more, that tends towards
the inerrant side. I think that as a denomination we need to get straight on now Im not
going to be able to quote this to you exactly what John Wesley said about in in
essentials unity and nonessentials charity or freedom or something in all things love or
charity. Why, why, why is this so essential? Is a greater essential piece that we are
going to take Scripture exactly like it's written? I think that's why I suspect that they
would be anti-woman if they were given the opportunity. Why those verses and not
some of the others? Why are they so stuck on you know, let's get to the bottom of this
issue, of why were having these differences. Does it have to do with the inerrancy of
Scripture? I really want there to be more conversation about that from the leadership of
the church. I want the leadership of the church really to start taking a stand, because I
think pastors, the vast majority of pastors, sit on the fence about this and want to include
people, but want our leaders to talk theologically and to give some leadership in this
area. I dont think were seeing very much of that. Now Im going to have to tell you that
you cant use my name (laughter). I felt like Id done really well up to this point.
Yeah, Id like to see more leadership, and in this conference actually you know,
Bishop Hope could probably come back and say Well, have you been attending our
conversations about this? Because we are having these conversations on a regular
basis. I havent because I only just came into this church, and the last one they had I
thought, You know what? This is really something that I should be going to. So, she
would say, Well weve been providing that for you Cheryl, you just havent been taking
advantage of it. So, there it is.

SA: Well thank you very much.

CL: Yeah.