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176 A Wonnn,s Voice Pameh Brown 177
writing and there's a great area of interest in that, almost as a her poem "Bullocky", which I now consider one of her worst
rejection of the anti-poetic. poems and she probably does too. But as a kid at school, I found
I became aware of being anti-poetic basically because I was it interesting. And then I read "South of My Days" and saw that
trying to disrupt the poetic. It's not because of feminism. I was it moves on technicdly and that influenced me. But I iust wrote
writing before I was a feminist for a start; many other women
were. And then once you became a feminist what occurred
the sarne as anyone
- turgid adolescent rot, really. It was
always free verse, blank, I never did the rhpring stuff.
then was that whole uprising of confessional writing and
self-discovery. It was important then and I did a bit of it. gut t Soare would argue thot you need to start out with the
always did it with an intellectual eye on what I was doing. I rhyning stuff, beforc you can become wrstructwed,
wasn't trying to constnrct the self. or constmct myself as a No, I wouldnt agree with that. Fhee verse is the norm of the
feminist personality or as a woman. krt of the influence of the twentieth century. All you need when you're starting out is to
movement was to tell these things, to say these things, to have be a reader and pick your favourites and try to emulate them
these positions about relationships and about society as a or be influenced by them.
feminist. The anti-poetic staace actually rejects a lot of that.
Other than ludith Vlhight who wene those favourites ond
That sort of self-expression. I dont think I did it for long, but
influences?
you can see it in the early poems of the seventies what
was going on! But I was never interested in notions- that,s
of ,.only
\Alhen I was really young I was influenced by TS Eliot
- of
course, everyone was. That was outside the school curriculum;
women bleed". I knew that and t tfuerrght it was important tt
say. I aQtually used to think that menstmal poems were hilari-
I didn't like much of what we read at school. When I was a
teenager I was quite lucky because I fell in with some Commu-
ous. Menstruation poetry! ... [laughter].
nists rcal Communists I mean, not fictional ones. A friend
-
of mine was the daughter of the Secretary of the Communist
what do you meon by menstnrution poetry Iinguistic
fluiditya "flowingfrom the body,, t1rye of thing?-
Party in Brisbane. In a way that led me into other kinds of
No, I mean literally. In the seventies when women poets ruriting. I remember reading Vladimir Mayakovsky as a teen-
ager, which I found really exciting. And I read novels. I suppose
were starting to really publish and write and read a lot, many
women literally wrote poems about their periods ...
the influences would have been Ilya Ehrenberg; and Oscar
[laughter] \rVilde was really important to me. But I cadt remember, it's so
... the pain and the angst. Not to say that isn t important to tell,
long ago, I was a teenager thirty years ago! ... flaughter].
it is women's e4perience, but there's en intellectual component
in poetry as well as a telling. How did they influence you? ll&rs it ideology? Or stylistic
aspects?
when you storted to vwite, did you write in a traditionol
With Mayakovski it was a bit of both his ideolory and his
foru, and then become ress s&u chred, or were you olways -
excitement to do with the Russian Revolution
anti-poetic? - and his
poems. They were so minimal: 'A Cloud in Trousers" arld
No, I didn't start that way because I started to write when I things like that style, that sparse minimalism. I didn't go
was a teenqger. My story's the same as anyone's. That,s where - thewas
to university, which great actually, because I would have
one's story doesn't really matter. The first kind of poetry I wrote had to go through a lot of English poety that I wouldnt have
was influenced by |udith 14hight when I was at scfuool. I copied Iiked, in those days. I then discovered the Beats, only about a
178 A Wonan,s Voice
Pameh Brown 179
was. I dont think it's that special, that's all. And I dont think
include in the interview. Thatis, I,m not i"r, fond
of the idea
of being "a personality". In fact, I shouldn t rlafly it will help anyone to tell you more than that ... fiaughter].
u" aoi"sii"
interview for that reason. I'm opposed to that self-promotfnal
idea. You say that you didn't have o sense of yourcelf as a writer
or a poet. How does it happen then?
Perhaps we should caII this uthe utti-intenziew,, As usual and asain I think this is a very ordinary thing
...
hobably it is ... [laughter]. But I guess people want to -
at high school I had a great E.glish teacher. It's as simple as
-
know.
How voyeuristic does it have to be? \Alhy do they want that. And also the Communists. On Saturday arvos we used to
to know
about my childhood? visit the home of Ted Bacon, a historian. He had discussion
gxoups for kids and he would say: I'll tell you the history of the
when I interuiewed Dorcthy Hewett (one of my
uiews) I said that I wufied to ask her abiut the lirst inter- wheel from the caveman to General Motors Holden. So he
autobio_ would oElain capitalism. I guess it would be thought that he
gaphicg aspect of h* witing, not about her life, ,Lnd
she was brainwashing us, or indoctrinating us, with terrible ideol-
said: "that's atelief!" Evetyone seemedoDsessed
withfud- ory. My parents certainly thought so. But I would also always
ing out more about her and confrating lthe ,,1,, in
her piems go away from his home with a book. Things like lGthe Krill-
with the authon so I owided doins tirt. I,m not interested
witz's drawings. They seemed to me incredibly cultured peo-
in voyeufism. I have justfound thaias rprcgrrss ed with
the ple, and they were. I was introduced to lots of ways of thinking
intemiews people have totked obout ih"r, perconal
lives and that more sociological input gave my brain something to
and how perhaps childhood panents, fonilies, forutative
have produced-thi poet.
- do.
influences
-
well, I think it does. But my experience is probably
similar Did you leel any boniers to becoming a poet when you wene
to many people of my generation: I didn t have an yowg poety being a mqsculine pnovenance?
ideal child-
hood, I had an itinerant childhood, I didn t live
with my family -
I dont think so at that stage. I was pretty bored by most
for years. My mother contracted tuberculosis and was
placei things in my education apart from f,nglish and writing, and
in a sanatorium. My father went overseas. My brother
were sent to our maternal grandpalents, and I lived
and sister
with a
also Fhench
- anything to do with language. I wasnt aware
that I was being a young woman poet; I could iust write. I
great-aunt from the age of eighteen months
until I was seven. wished I could paint, or be a musician. But with writing, I could
I had an unhappy childhood, io a way, not in a terribre, do it. I was often told how terrible and uncooperative and what
sensational, televised way. Like, I wouldnt get
on ,,60 Min- a terrible rebel I was, but also: 'Will do well with her ability
utes"! ... [augh] ... it wasn't fftaf bad. But it i", it convinced me. It was
disrupted with f,nglisfu". And it was tnre
", -
180 A Woman's Voice Pamela Brown 181
obvious. I guess I always had confidence as a writer (which I in that way. It's got this long history of movements, positions
philosophy,
certainly don t have now) ... a sort of rebellious confidence ... and ideas that will never agree. Also, probably like
not to success, but just that it was OK to do things, or to do it has that kind of function in the culture'
what I wanted to do. I also always knew that you had to earn
your living. I never thought of it totally romantically. I don't How do you defne Postutodernism?
think! Perhaps I did occasionally. Postmodernism is something that occurred probably from
To get back to thequestion about being a woman poet. If you about 1950 on. Ifs a post-war thing. It's post-Modernism,
consider |ohn Thanter's "Genbration of 68" (which I think of as which still exists of course. Postmodernist writers take a posi-
a mythical thing that he invented), I think my generation was tion outside mainstream culture, critically outside it, and are
engaged in opposing centralist ideas of linearity and
authority
the generation of og. we were involved in all sorts of counter with degree of
linearity says it alt really. Ifs also to do a
culture events
-theatre,
music, political discussions. we were -experimentation, a practice of trying to disrupt those solid
that generation, not constructed later in an anthology as a
generation. I think that influenced me towards becoming a centrist things of order. It occurred with the advent of huge
technological change video, TV media changes. There's no
woman writer, or being a feminist. Because we lived it; we did - a world
more TS Eliot's waiteland! There's all this spaceiunk,
it. The "Generation of 68" that )ohn was talking about had it's here. People who
of so much information, at such speed. so,
magazines and hierarchical stmctures and committees where ... silly. Our
live in it and say they are not postmodern are
all &e girlfriends were the treasurers and the secretaries. They
whole way of seeing things has changed because of it. So we
were already forming those administrative power bases. I
are postmodern whether we Iike it or not. There is
a reaction
wasnlt evea aware of them at the time. I wasnt interested in who wanting to return
against it, of course. All those poets are
things likei noeqy Austahia. My friends and I were making new
to forsralism. Ifs happening in America and here
-
sculpture at The Yellow House and having Dadaist film eve- formalism. The other tUi"S about it is that there is an element
of play and game in it and that's all right. You dont
nings in our lounge roons; we were actually living dl that. And have to be
I was a poet and others were other things. And the politics were po*plo, anld elevated and completely serious about what you
endlessly discussed. are doing.
I think that |ohns "Generation of 68" is where Australian
postmodernism began. ADd I would welcome that. I certainly And at a txtuallevel or lingaistic level, postmoderniszr is
like a lot of those writers and their works erTrresse d tlrough the non-capitatising of wotds
and reflex'
Laurie Duggan,
John Forbes I guess he made it in). John was
- just conveniently ivity Poems about twiting PoeW?
setting up this little column of power. Arrd there would be
-
Yes, that's part of it. The other thing that a number of people
another one that was opposed to it. But poetry has always been do is to introduce the real names of people, and not
fictionalise
like that. in a heroic way. The person who named that was Fhank o'Hara
It's a highly literary thing that |obn was doing with that (partly in his manifesto called "Personism". Thatwas
as a ioke)
anthologr; trying to make a statement. That's fine. It,s one of in 1959; ifs nearly forty years ago that these things happened'
the things that poetry has dways had they're not new. ue uaa tnis revelation that he could use the
menners and styles, mutually different, - traditions of various
but irreconcilable. telephone rather than write a poem. Befor-e this he was
using
- his poetry to communicate; to say, this happened and that
That's healthy. IGn Bolton said poetry is a bit like philosophy
182 A Womanrs Voice
Pamela Brown lO3
happened. Hc was agreat gossip,
and riked to tark on the phone.
It was caled: I do this, Ilo Do you tltilr1" this lack of confidence thing is to do with
you can sneak up on people and
d:,, r;rt;i;I".o.rt,s risht, yet women' and that generolly men ore mone confident about
introduce more serious, even
sinister, observatioor *d ideas. you what they crcate?
can do those thiags much
more quietry, rather than writing: .w" the end of the
Possibly. I've always had this little theory about male poets.
Cenfury,, tlpe poem, or ,,f will
sa! "rL "t
g** poet, etc,, ... For a long time I used to wonder why theywere so competitive;
", " why they were so distressed when someone won a prize. I
How does the "r" relote to the notion
conflate with the poet? I notice
of ftersoniwt,,l doesit don't think it's iust that old biological thing. I think it is that
sively:
n"iyklrJ, ,,1,,
quite erten- really to be a poet and male when you are supposed to be an
engineer or a baker you're supposed to earn money and do
well, it's not onry arways "r". rt's not
riterar. I went through
-
these masculine, conquering things in the workforce to end
a stage where I started to use.,you,,to talk about
myserf. In the up a poet is a very fragile thing for a bloke. So they do - blokey
last decade I've become uninterested
in serf-ocpression. you stuff and are incredibly competitive with each other. Because
hoy writing poehy is realry boring; I suppose redly they should be engineers. They would probably be
everyone,s tord
you that ...
called sissies or wusses. For a boy to go off in a corner and read
a poem I'd probably like that kid it would be a fairly
No! Thefvesardit,s hoil work! -
private thiog that he was doing, while - but
he failed at cricket or
It's a Ail I want to say is that I,m not interested
task!
in sayi,g: baseball ...
really me; I'm reallywritiag this. yo,,
F _fu
"You"'arrd it doesn t have tL
or" the ,,f,,
or the
I think actualry makiag poems
u" utr;"uy t;; a digression _ You said in a recent intenriew that "poetty is close to popu-
thi* about it, that's -nypuopre have
is fun *i iotrr.r.'ng, but if you lar culhue".! I lgnow what you meorn by that, yet itsounds
to uu"o*, .,aperson.Iity, poradoxical in that people oten? rcading poetry, it isn?
because actuar! writing'isoi u that great.
Doing interviews popular ...
isut that great either. ltt oi"u to do
it,-but the actual work, if No, oh no, I didn't mearl it that way. What I meant was that
you think about it, is just sitting
there, at the desk, by yourserf,
shaping this th;ng, i*y, *oirar"i"g it's not part of popular culture, but it's /rke popular culture. It's
*U-rtU", it,s any good like the speed of imagery that you have in rock videos, small
(and I ne,er think *ytui"g anygooaj.
is t aon't think I m doing
this rearv wondertuirni"i r animations, advertisements. Not so much footy, that,s popular
b: so there you
are with your lack of .oofid"o." "riiri aII-b;
""i"*u],. culture, but I'm talking about artistic crrlture rather than that.
pg
will I write one today? It's a difficurt
yJurrru thiuking: condensation of imagery quickly absorbed, and you can leave
thing, I don t think it,s hard
but it's pretty dull,
fretty tedious ... it and move off onto something else in the same way you can
flick around your channels on TV you can channel-surf and
That saems totally consisfen t with you can poetry-surf. so I meant more - in its method than being
what you have been
saying. If you believed in the perfect part of it. I remember when I said that. I thought that too, I
would [oraw you had r;reoted it
ugh:*t object, you
... thougbt people would think I was tryrng to be "cool,,. I wasn t,
You're right. I'd feer compretery I just think it actually is like it, not part of it, because I am very
runatic if I actua[y thought
I was having some sort of t *r""odent awre that very few people read poetry.
*.p"ri"oce ... [raughJ.
lU AWomanrs Voie Pamela Brown 185
Gwen Harwood
f,'.il:"dffiH"Tfil*Xi::: tl*H;*"ry arr w iif,ks r s THE EVAI{ESCENTIE
Diane Firhey REVISIONART MTTTI
Cataloguing in Publication Data
Nationol Libmry of Ausfrr;.ka
Fhy Zwicky NOWAIVD AGAIN I TTE
Ania Walwicz THE POLTTICS OFEXTil
Digby, Ienny, 1956-
A womaa's voice: conversations with Aushalian poets. |an Owen SEE THE WORTDASIII
t. Aus$alian poetry - Women authors. 2. poets, fudith Rodriguez BAIHING IN A GRETITS
Aushalian
poets - 20th century
Australia - Intenriews.
Interviews.
3. Women
4. Women aad literature _ WONDERNJTWWT
-
Australia.I. Title. -
kmela Brown AI{A}IT IN THEAR}IE
4.827.3099287
Antigone Kefala A IdBYRINTHIA}.IIITIC
ISBN 0 7022 2732 3
Iudith Beveridge THE BEAUTY OF THBf,S
WORLD
Bibliography
References