Mini Depo of John Dubois (8 4 16)

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2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE ELEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
IN AND FOR MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA
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4
MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, by and CASE NO.: 12-37012 CA 24
5 Through the Regulatory and
Economic Resources Department,
6
Plaintiff,
7
-vs-
8
JOHN E. DUBOIS,
9
Defendant.
10 ____________________________________/
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VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOHN E. DUBOIS,
19
20 Whereupon, the deposition was taken at
Dade County Courthouse 73 West Flagler Street,
21 Courtroom 3-2, Miami, Florida,
Commencing at 10:30 a.m., and adjourning at 4:30 p.m.,
22 Taken on Thursday, August 4, 2016
23 Taken before Teresa H. Miranda,
Court Reporter for the State of Florida,
24
25
Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

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1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:
1 A 54.
3 OFFICE OF THE MIAMI-DADE COUNTY ATTORNEY 2 Q What is your date of birth?
By: Christopher A. Angell, Esquire
4 111 Northwest 1st Street, Suite 2810 3 A 05/25/62.
Miami, Florida 33128 4 Q I know you've given a deposition before in other
5 Phone: (305) 375-1024
E-mail: Angellc@miamidade.gov 5 unrelated matters, correct?
6 6 A Yes.
7 On behalf of the Defendant:
8 JEFFREY P. LEARY, ESQUIRE 7 Q When was the last time you gave a deposition?
18495 South Dixie Hwy, PMB 107 8 A Unrelated to this case you mean?
9 Cutler Bay, Florida 33157
Phone: (585)747-2952 9 Q Yes, sir.
10 E-mail: Mdcpr.jl@gmail.com
11
10 A It was probably a couple of years ago.
12 ALSO PRESENT: 11 Q I'm going to go over some ground rules to start,
13 John Ricisak,
Christian Hernandez and Sandra Solis - Videographers 12 because I know it's been a while and I want to make sure we're
14 Teresa Miranda - Court Reporter 13 all on the same page.
15 INDEX
16 Witness Direct Redirect Cross Recross 14 MR. LEARY: Before we get to the rules, let's do
JOHN E. DUBOIS 3 15 appearances.
17
EXHIBITS 16 MR. ANGELL: Oh, I'm sorry.
18
Plaintiff's Page
17 MR. LEARY: Jeffrey Leary is also here on behalf of
19 18 the Defendant, John Dubois.
Exhibit No. 1: Picture of the subject property 101
20 Exhibit No. 2: Picture of the subject property 130 19 MR. ANGELL: And, as I stated earlier, Chris Angell
Exhibit No. 3: Picture of the subject property 176 20 on behalf of Miami-Dade County. And also present is our
21 Exhibit No. 4: Document: Location of
Jurisdictional wetland 182 21 representative, John Ricisak. Also present in the room are
22 Exhibit No. 5: Carney e-mail with mockup graphics 212 22 two videographers and one court reporter.
Exhibit No. 6: Walberg 1992 survey 216
23 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
(All exhibits retained by counsel) 24 Q As you know, we have two videographers here today
24
25 25 pursuant to court order. The Court has ordered that everybody
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1 Thereupon, 1 in the room is to videotaped. That's why we are positioned
2 John E. Dubois 2 where we are, and that's why we have the two cameras.
3 was called as a witness by the Defendant and, having been duly 3 A Okay.
4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 4 Q I'm going to go over some basic ground rules with you
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 before we begin. Even though you are being recorded, all
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're on the record. The date 6 answers have to be audible and out loud, because there is a
7 is August 4th, 2016. The time is 10:30 a.m. 7 transcript being taken down as well. And Madam Reporter, who's
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (10:30 a.m.) 8 writing that transcript cannot take shakes of the head or
9 BY MR. ANGELL: 9 gestures of the hands, so I'm going to have to ask you to speak
10 Q Good morning. 10 your answers. Okay?
11 A Good morning. 11 A Okay.
12 Q We're here in the case of Miami-Dade County versus John 12 Q In addition, you have the right to explain your answer.
13 Dubois. 13 A lot of questions are going to call for "yes" or "no" answers.
14 Can you please state your name for the record. 14 After you give that "yes, no, I don't know," or "I don't
15 A John Dubois. 15 remember," which are all valid answers, you have a right to
16 Q Mr. Dubois, we're here to take your deposition today. 16 explain your answer if you feel it's necessary.
17 Before we begin, we are going to go over some preliminary 17 Sometimes we lawyers ask very bad questions that we
18 matters. 18 think are good questions. Sometimes we ask questions that make
19 First, I'm going to ask for you to remove the 19 no sense to anybody but ourselves. If that happens, and I ask
20 sunglasses, because this is a courtroom and you're giving live 20 you a question that you do not understand, just let me know and
21 testimony on camera. And even if you weren't, it wouldn't be 21 I'll be happy to rephrase the question. Okay?
22 appropriate. You wouldn't be allowed do so in a court of law, 22 A Okay.
23 so I'm going to ask you to remove the sunglasses. 23 Q Otherwise, if you answer a question it will be assumed
24 A Okay. (Witness complies). 24 that you understood the question.
25 Q Thank you. Sir, how old are you? 25 A Okay.
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1 Q This is not a test of endurance. If, at any point in 1 to form." If you hear objection to form, you still have to
2 time, you need to use the restroom, you want to take a break, 2 answer the question. The only time you do not answer a
3 you want water, you want to talk to your lawyer, all those 3 question, is if your lawyer specifically directs you not to
4 things can be accommodated. 4 answer that question.
5 A Okay. 5 A Okay.
6 Q Just let us know. 6 Q Okay?
7 A All right. 7 A Yep.
8 Q The only thing that we ask is that if there is a 8 Q All right. Where were you born?
9 question pending that you answer the question before we take the 9 A Do you mean what city or hospital?
10 break. 10 Q What city?
11 A Okay. 11 A New York City.
12 Q Given our schedule, I know we started a little late 12 Q When did you move to Miami?
13 because of traffic and some confusion. So, it's 10:33 now. If 13 A Roughly 2001.
14 it's agreeable to everyone in the room, my thought is that we 14 Q Where did you live prior to moving to Miami?
15 break at 1:00 for lunch. We'll take a short lunch and then we 15 A Northern Virginia, Reston.
16 can reconvene. 16 Q I'm sorry?
17 A How long did you want this to continue until? 17 A Reston.
18 Q This deposition will continue until my questions are 18 Q How long had you lived in Reston?
19 finished, which I hope will not be longer than today. 19 A I lived there since 1986.
20 Do you have a time issue this afternoon? 20 Q What did you do for a living in Reston?
21 A Yeah. Yeah, I don't mind working through lunch and 21 A I was an engineer for GTE.
22 skipping lunch, or having it brought in, or whatever, to get 22 Q How long were you with that company?
23 through the questions. 23 A I worked there from '86 to about '89.
24 Q What time do you need to be out by today? 24 Q Why did you leave the company?
25 A Five. 25 A My boss went to a defense contractor and brought me
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1 Q All right. No matter what, we'll conclude at 5. I do 1 with him over there.
2 have to usually feed the other people in the courtroom, though, 2 Q Okay. When you say defense contractor, it was a
3 so we will still break for lunch at 1:00 but we'll limit it to 3 private company?
4 30 minutes. There's restaurants right across the street -- 4 A Yes.
5 A Okay. 5 Q What was the name of that private company?
6 Q -- that are really close and you can usually get 6 A SRA.
7 something and come back. 7 Q How long did you work for SRA?
8 The next thing is I know you are an intelligent man. I 8 A One year.
9 know that you will be able to anticipate my questions as I ask 9 Q And then did you continue to --
10 them. However, Madam Reporter cannot take down both of us at 10 A I'm sorry.
11 once, so therefore I'm going to have to ask you to wait for me 11 Q Oh!
12 to completely finish asking my question before you answer, and I 12 A Yeah, I think it was a little over a year, yeah.
13 will until your answer is completely finished before I ask you 13 Q That was contract work, correct?
14 the next question. 14 A Yes.
15 A Okay. 15 Q Were you working with a company that just continued to
16 THE WITNESS: (To Mr. Leary) Can you grab my 16 do contract work up to 2001 when you moved to Miami?
17 binder, please. 17 A No, I had various other jobs.
18 MR. LEARY: Yeah. 18 Q So, after you did the contract for a little over a year
19 THE WITNESS: Thanks, the one on the right there, 19 with SRA, what did you do?
20 the binder there. 20 A I went to -- so, what happened is when I was finishing
21 (Whereupon Mr. Leary complies.) 21 up at GTE I was an engineer. I applied for a job in sales with
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thanks. 22 a company based in Fort Lauderdale. They had a hiring freeze,
23 BY MR. ANGEL: 23 so they told me they would get back to me. So then I took my
24 Q The other thing is that, from time to time, your lawyer 24 job with my former manager at SRA, went there. And then a year
25 may object. Oftentimes, what you're going to hear is "objection 25 later they called me and said they had an opening, and my job
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1 offer was ready. So then I went, and I think it was in 1990, to 1 A Netrail, yeah.
2 work for Telematics, which is based out of Fort Lauderdale. 2 Q Were all of these sort of IT-related jobs?
3 Q How long did you work for Telematics? 3 A Yeah, they were all telecommunications, yes. Well
4 A I worked there until 1996 maybe. 4 check that. Yeah, they were all more or less
5 Q What you did you do for them? 5 telecommunications. Leave it at that.
6 A I was sales engineer, manager and director. 6 Q And for all of these jobs that we've discussed so far
7 Q At the time that you worked for Telematics did you work 7 up to Netrail, were all of these voluntary departures by you
8 for any other company? 8 from those positions?
9 A No. 9 A Yeah, I mean, Netrail was four months, but I was hired
10 Q So, no outside employment? 10 to sell the company, and I sold it in four and a half months.
11 A No. 11 Q And so, about what year did you stop working for
12 Q When your time at Telematics ended, who did you go work 12 Netrail then?
13 for? 13 A Also '97.
14 A Let me clarify the last statement. 14 Q Then who did you go work for?
15 Q Sure. 15 A I started with Redback Networks.
16 A I held a real estate license, but I don't know if you 16 Q What did they do?
17 consider that part-time or just... 17 A 1997. I didn't exactly know when they hired me, but
18 Q Were you actively engaged in the sale of real estate? 18 they were in telecommunications, also. They were a startup
19 A For part of the period while I was at GTE, yeah. And I 19 company, and they were some super bright people. And I figured
20 don't remember when I stopped being active in real estate, but I 20 it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to work with that level
21 held the license probably for 15 years. 21 of people. So I joined them in November, also in
22 Q Do you currently still have a license? 22 telecommunications. And, ultimately, we made technology that
23 A No. 23 enabled broadband services. We didn't create the SL but we
24 Q When did the license lapse? 24 enabled the wide scale to play in with DSL technology back in
25 A I believe it lapsed -- well, there are different states 25 1997.
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1 that the license goes in, depending on your activity level. So, 1 Q Where they based in Fort Lauderdale as well?
2 I still had a license up until I left Virginia...I believe it 2 A Sorry?
3 was just inactive...and that would have been around 2001. 3 Q Was that company based in Fort Lauderdale?
4 Q Okay. So, you left the sales manager job in '96. 4 A No, they were headquartered out of San Jose.
5 Where did you go work then? 5 Q Did you actually live in San Jose, at that time?
6 A So, I worked -- I was hired by one of my customers as 6 A No, I stayed in Virginia.
7 their CEO. It's called Netrail. 7 Q Okay.
8 Q What did they do? 8 A I ran sales for part of the United States for them.
9 A They were a national backbone internet provider. 9 Q So, when that job you had applied for back at...let me
10 Q How long did you work for them? 10 see if I get it right...Telematics, that was in Fort Lauderdale?
11 A I worked for them for maybe four or five months. 11 A Yes.
12 Q And the job before that, the job before Netrail? 12 Q When that came open, did you actually move to Fort
13 A I'm sorry. I skipped -- sorry. I skipped something. 13 Lauderdale, or stay in Virginia?
14 Q Okay. 14 A No, same thing. As sales engineer and manager you have
15 A So, let me go back to this. Telematics would have been 15 people all over the world, and you just fly wherever you need
16 maybe 1990 through '95. 16 to.
17 Q Okay. 17 Q So, your base of residence was still Virginia?
18 A And then after that, there was a company called 18 A Right, and offices were there, local satellite offices
19 Cascade, and I was there for a couple of years, probably '96 and 19 were there.
20 part of '97. And I moved from sales engineering management 20 Q So, the first time you actually moved to Florida was in
21 directly into sales for Cascade during that period. And they 21 2001?
22 were acquired by Ascend, and then my Cascade customer hired me 22 A Yes.
23 as their CEO in 1997 at Netrail. 23 Q And between living in Virginia, in Reston, and living
24 Q So, Telematics to Cascade, which became Ascend, then 24 in Florida, did you live anywhere else in between those two
25 from Ascend to Netrail? 25 locations?
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1 A No. 1 Q Does it have any nickname that people know it bu?
2 Q So, go ahead and walk me through your employment from 2 A No.
3 where we left off. 3 Q Is that area that you developed in unincorporated Dade,
4 A From Redback in 1997? 4 or is it in a municipality?
5 Q Uh-huh (affirmative expression). 5 A Palmetto Bay was incorporated in 2002. I bought the
6 A So, I was there from 1997 to January of 2001. One of 6 property before that, but when I developed it, it was part of
7 the former presidents of Atlantic was a mentor of mine, and he 7 Palmetto Bay.
8 hired me as the CEO of a company called NX Networks. That was 8 Q No, I understand that you bought that property.
9 January of 2001. So that's when I left Redback. Same thing, 9 There was one structure on that property when you
10 telecommunications equipment company. 10 purchased it, is that correct?
11 Q Was that job actually based here in Miami? 11 A Yes.
12 A No. That was also in Virginia, right near where I 12 Q And you lived in that structure?
13 lived. 13 A Yes.
14 Q How long did you work for them? 14 Q How long did you live in that structure?
15 A That was about one year, a little over a year. 15 A Basically from 2001, when I moved down here, until July
16 Q Who did you work for next? 16 of 2003 when I moved into Coconut Grove.
17 A So then, I kind of retired and moved down here. 17 Q What was the address for that home that you lived in
18 Q So, when you moved here it was retirement, at that 18 from 2001 to 2003?
19 point? 19 A I don't recall.
20 A Yeah. 20 Q I probably wouldn't recall mine either from 2001.
21 Q So, you didn't move here for a different career 21 A It was 179 something, two more digits after that,
22 opportunity or different job than when you initially came? 22 Southwest 82nd Avenue.
23 A No, I mean, I did some real estate development, 23 Q When you moved here in 2001 and lived in the home that
24 residential real estate development as kind of a hobby. And I 24 was on Southwest 82nd Avenue, did anybody reside with you in
25 found the property that I now live at. I bought a property 25 that home?
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1 nearby to stay at, about a mile away, right next to Palmer 1 A No.
2 Trinity School, while my house was under construction. And 2 Q When you lived in the Grove, from 2003 to 2007, did
3 then, I ended up developing that, because it was a little over 3 anybody reside with you in that home?
4 five acres with an old house on it. So, when I developed that, 4 A No.
5 I temporarily moved into Coconut Grove while the construction 5 Q Do you still own the home in the Grove?
6 was going on. And I stayed there -- I was there I think from 6 A Yes.
7 July of 2003 until probably the summer of 2007 when I moved into 7 Q Does anybody currently reside there?
8 my residence where I am now. 8 A Yes.
9 Q So, when you say you stayed there, you're referring to 9 Q Is it a tenant?
10 the place in the Grove from 2003 to '07? 10 A Yes.
11 A Yeah. 11 Q When did you start leasing out that address?
12 Q And the other place that you purchased, that you then 12 A When I moved out in July, or in the summer of 2007.
13 developed, that you said was about five acres, where was that 13 Q Have you had the same tenant since 2007?
14 located? 14 A No.
15 A Between 179 and 180th, Southwest 179th and 180th, 15 Q How many tenants have you had in the Grove address
16 between 80th Avenue and 82nd Avenue, basically right next to 16 since 2007?
17 Palmer Trinity School. 17 A I'd say, on average, probably one tenant every two
18 Q Okay. 18 years, two and a half years.
19 A On the west side. 19 Q Did you ever know any of the tenants personally before
20 Q When you said you developed that area, did you develop 20 they moved in as residents in the Coconut Grove address?
21 into other single-family homes? 21 MR. LEARY: I'm going to object to the relevance of
22 A Yeah. We took the single old home on a little over 22 these of questions. You can answer.
23 five acres and built 10 single-family homes. 23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 Q Does that neighborhood have any official name to it? 24 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 A No. 25 Q The home that you owned in 2001, or the home you lived
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1 in from 2001 to 2003, which I understand you then developed that 1 Q And just to be clear, the Coconut Grove address, what
2 property, when you developed that property where that home was 2 is that address?
3 located, did you take that home down, or did it remain standing? 3 A 3471 Main Highway. It's The Cloisters in Coconut
4 A You mean is it still there today? 4 Grove.
5 Q Yeah. Is it still there today? 5 Q What is your current address?
6 A No. 6 A 17575 Old Cutler Road and 17505 Old Cutler Road.
7 Q When you demolished that home in order to build -- or 7 Q The landholding corporation, I understand that you said
8 the project demolishing it, did you ever have any residents or 8 you don't know if the landholding corporation or the
9 tenants live in that home other than you? 9 construction corporation that you had did any work on 17575 Old
10 A No. 10 Cutler Road address, is that correct?
11 Q The property that you developed, do you currently own 11 MR. LEARY: I'm going to object to the form of that
12 any of the houses that are located on that property? 12 question.
13 A No. 13 THE WITNESS: Can you state the question again?
14 Q You said you didn't -- well, let me rephrase that. 14 BY MR. ANGELL:
15 The real estate development that you did, we talked 15 Q Sure. The Del Mar corporation that you had, did that
16 about that, that one place now. Did you develop any other 16 do any actual work on the 17575 Cutler Road address, or the
17 areas? 17 adjoining property?
18 A No. 18 A The corporation existed at the time 17575 Old Cutler
19 Q Did you do it by yourself as an individual, or through 19 Road and 17505 were being developed. Is it possible that there
20 a corporation? 20 were some contractors that did work on the other property by
21 A Through a corporation. 21 Mardel Development or Del Mar that were used at my property?
22 Q Is it a corporation you set up and established, or was 22 Yes, of course, I used the same contractors. Did they invoice
23 it somebody else's corporation that you joined? 23 under the new house, or the old name of the entity? There were
24 A Well, it's not a straightforward answer. There were 24 thousands of invoices. So, the answer is I'm sure there was. I
25 two corporations involved. There was a landholding corporation, 25 just couldn't tell you how many, or who invoiced. But to answer
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1 and then there's a construction corporation. There were two 1 your question, which I think you're getting at, all of the
2 different corporations. 2 construction at my current residence was done, and intended to
3 Q Are they both your corporations? 3 be done, in my own name.
4 A They were both my corporations when they existed, yes. 4 Q As a private individual?
5 Q When did they cease to exist? 5 A All the procurements. Yeah.
6 A I don't remember. 6 Q And just for ease, the 17575 and the 17505 addresses,
7 Q Did you establish both those corporations upon arriving 7 those are the correct addresses, right?
8 in Florida? 8 A Yes.
9 A I honestly don't recall. I know the land development 9 Q For the purposes of this deposition we're going to
10 corporation was established well before the construction. 10 refer to it as the "subject property."
11 Q Do you recall the names of either of those 11 A Right.
12 corporations? 12 Q That's way it's easier for Madam Reporter with the
13 A Yes, Del Mar Development and Mardel Development. 13 numbers.
14 Q Did you have partners in these corporations? 14 A Good plan.
15 A No. 15 Q Ill have to remember it.
16 Q So, you were the primary -- well, you were the 16 The businesses Mardel and Del Mar, I understand that
17 principal I should say? 17 you've already testified that they no longer exist.
18 A Yes. 18 Do you still retain records from those companies?
19 Q You would have been the president of both those 19 A I probably have tax returns, probably at least the last
20 corporations as well? 20 tax returns I filed on those, yes.
21 A President, sole director, managing partner, whatever 21 Q Other than tax returns, any invoices from the
22 they're called, yeah. 22 construction of the subject property, that were made under
23 Q Did either of those corporations participate in the 23 either of those two companies, Del Mar or Mardel, would you
24 development of your current address? 24 still have those invoices?
25 A Not sure. 25 A So, typically not. I only usually keep records for up
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1 to seven years. Those entities, I believe, ceased to exist 1 Q And your campaign people, if they have a Twitter, if
2 before 2010, so I probably don't. There might be some floating 2 they have a Facebook...just so I'm clear...if they have any of
3 around, but I couldn't tell you with conviction that I have a 3 that, you rely upon your campaign people to use their judgment
4 significant amount of records of original invoices. 4 on your behalf?
5 Q Where were those companies based out of? I mean where 5 A I can tell you I have never logged onto any of that
6 were the offices? 6 stuff, and I have never had access to any of that stuff, unless
7 A I don't recall what the listed principal addresses 7 people just forward me little snippets, but I don't know where
8 were. Those were incorporated so many years ago. 8 it comes from.
9 Q Did they share an address, or do you know if they were 9 Q And you, personally, other than the Facebook account
10 two separate addresses? 10 that you've never used, you don't have any social media,
11 A I don't recall. I really don't recall. 11 correct?
12 Q Other than yourself, did you have any staff that worked 12 A Correct, unless you call e-mail social media.
13 for either of those two companies? 13 Q Well, as public officials it can be.
14 A No. 14 Do you have a blog at all associated with your e-mail?
15 Q So, you were it? 15 A No.
16 A Yeah. 16 Q I know the answer to this question is going to be no,
17 Q We're going to talk more about the property on this a 17 but we ask it of everybody.
18 little later. I want to go back to some background information. 18 Have you ever been arrested?
19 A I figured we'd get to that sooner or later. 19 A No.
20 Q We got a little sidetracked. I'm going to get back to 20 Q Has your driver's license ever been suspended?
21 these configurations. 21 A I believe on multiple occasions.
22 Social media, do you have a Facebook? 22 Q Okay. Do you know when?
23 A I don't personally, no. I mean, I signed up for one 23 A I can tell you the last time I believe it was. I mean,
24 many years ago. I haven't logged onto my account because I lost 24 I'd have to check right now to see if it is now.
25 my password probably, three or four years. 25 I filed a police report for an incident, a vandalism
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1 Q I know some people have accounts other people monitor 1 incident. And, for whatever reason the cops, the police...
2 for them -- 2 because they're Palmetto Bay...and I'm an elected official, I
3 A Correct. 3 guess, decided it would be smart, and they decided on their own
4 Q -- especially people like in your public position. 4 to run my driver's license, which they did. And they called me
5 A Yeah, there's a campaign Facebook thing. 5 back, like a day or two later and said: By the way, we ran it.
6 Q All right. 6 Your license is suspended. Just a heads-up.
7 A I've never even logged onto it. I have no idea what 7 So, I went online, checked it, and sure enough it was
8 gets posted on that thing. 8 suspended. It was an administrative screw-up on their part. I
9 Q So, someone does that for you? 9 think Jeff has also done the same. When there was a problem I
10 A It's managed by my campaign. 10 think he's found some administrative screw-ups were tickets that
11 Q That's solely for campaign purposes? 11 were paid, but weren't processed properly by the state or
12 A Uh-huh (affirmative response). 12 whatever.
13 Q So, the private Facebook that you had at some point in 13 Q When was the last time that you were aware that your
14 time, that you don't use and you don't remember, no one monitors 14 license was suspended? What year was that?
15 that for you? 15 A I don't remember.
16 A Absolutely not. 16 Q Do you know how many times your license has been
17 Q Do you have a Twitter? 17 suspended by the State?
18 A No. 18 A I really don't.
19 Q Instagram? 19 Q You mentioned there was a vandalism incident in which
20 A No. 20 the police came out, and you did a report?
21 Q Any other form of social media? 21 A Yeah.
22 A I can't tell you what my campaign people do. If they 22 Q When was that?
23 have one in my name under my campaign, I don't know about it. 23 A I think this was...which would have coincided with the
24 Q Okay. 24 suspension...probably maybe a year and a half ago.
25 A But they do all of that stuff for me. 25 Q Was that on the subject property?
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1 A No. 1 is Eyecast...E-Y-E-C-A-S-T.
2 Q Unrelated? 2 Q You generally refer to it as Eyecast?
3 A Yeah. 3 A Right.
4 Q I know. I went over your work history with you. I did 4 Q When did you found Eyecast?
5 not go over your educational background. 5 A Eyecast was founded in -- it was incorporated in
6 What is that, sir? 6 October of 2008.
7 A I went to American -- you want from college on? 7 Q What does Eyecast do?
8 Q Yes. 8 A We provide technology and -- we build technology and
9 A American University in Washington, D.C. I was high 9 provide service to the public, principally commercially, for
10 school class of 1980, so I started there at that time. Finished 10 cloud-based video surveillance.
11 in -- I think I graduated January of 1985. I had two majors, 11 Q What does that mean "cloud-based video surveillance"?
12 economics and business administration. I graduated with a BS, 12 A If you know what a DVR is, for people who record their
13 and then I got a Masters in technology management, also at 13 video surveillance cameras, basically in a computer device.
14 American University, Technology of Management is what it was 14 MR. LEARY: TiVo.
15 called. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, we basically eliminate the need
16 Q Masters of -- 16 for that. We put our devices in, and it's stored on our
17 A Of Science. 17 servers in the cloud.
18 Q Okay. And after that, any additional higher education 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 after that? 19 Q So, the physical equipment for any surveillance is
20 A No. 20 still located at the individual's home, but everything is
21 Q Do you hold any professional licenses or certificates? 21 uploaded to the cloud?
22 A Yeah. 22 A The cameras and the technology that we developed are on
23 Q What do you hold? 23 premise, yes.
24 A Professional licenses or certificates? Well, it 24 Q Homeowner premise?
25 wouldn't be a professional license. 25 A Well, it's commercial. It's not residential.
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1 Q Well, I know an arborist, so we'll talk about that 1 Q Okay. Maybe that was a bad question on my part, which
2 later, but... 2 is why it didn't make sense.
3 A Yeah, I don't know if it classifies as either of those. 3 I understand that what you developed for the cloud
4 Q I don't know either, but anything else that come to 4 purpose, as I'll call it, where the surveillance footage is
5 your mind? I know you were licensed in real estate. 5 uploaded to, is your on premises, correct?
6 A Right. 6 A No.
7 Q Anything else? 7 Q No? Well, explain.
8 A Nothing comes to mind right now. 8 A Say that again. Sorry.
9 Q What did you do, or look at in order to prepare for 9 Q No, my question may be bad. I'm just trying to
10 this deposition today? And I want to make it clear that I don't 10 understand the business.
11 want to know about any communications or anything that was 11 I understand that it's a cloud-based business.
12 verbally said between you and your lawyer. 12 A Right.
13 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 13 Q So, my understanding of that is that it's based on
14 THE WITNESS: I could include that, too, and say 14 surveillance, correct?
15 nothing really. 15 A Video surveillance.
16 BY MR. ANGELL: 16 Q Is it homeowners' video surveillance?
17 Q Did you review any documents in order to prepare for 17 A No, commercial.
18 this deposition? 18 Q Oh, commercial?
19 A No. 19 A Businesses. We do some residential as a courtesy to
20 Q Any photographs? 20 the owners that own the businesses, that are customers. And we
21 A No. 21 do it for investors. We do it for employees. But we do not
22 Q We went over your past employment. What is your 22 actively sell, and we turn down, residential customers
23 current employment? 23 generally.
24 A Currently, I'm the CEO of a technology company called 24 Q So, for your business customers, the cameras that would
25 Optical Crime Prevention, I think is the legal name. The d/b/a 25 do the recording footage are located at those specific
8 (Pages 26 - 29)
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1 businesses? 1 subject property in 2008, other than yourself?
2 A Yes, the cameras are located or the premises for 2 A Well, first of all, in 2008 and 2009 it wasn't called
3 whatever is being surveilled. 3 Eyecast; it didn't have its d/b/a back then.
4 Q But the actual server that would hold your cloud would 4 Q Okay.
5 be located at your business? 5 A It was Optical Crime Prevention, Inc. So, at the time,
6 A That holds the video is -- no, it's not located at our 6 my cofounder, we would meet generally at my house to discuss
7 businesses. It's located in hosting facilities and/or our 7 corporate company matters, strategy, hiring, that sort of thing.
8 facilities. 8 Q Who was your cofounder?
9 Q Where is your business located, your physical office? 9 A Suhail Nanji.
10 A 8360 West Oakland Park Boulevard in Sunrise. 10 Q Is there any way you can spell that for Madam Reporter?
11 Q Are you the principal of that business? 11 A The last name, or the first name, or both?
12 A I'm the Chief Executive Officer of the company. 12 Q All of it.
13 Q Do you have any partners in that business? 13 A All right. First name Suhail is S-U-H-A-I-L. The last
14 A Yes, a lot. 14 name is Nanji...N-A-N-J-I.
15 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of these 15 Q Thank you. Would anybody else meet with you about the
16 questions. 16 development of the company in 2008 on the property?
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 A I would say no.
18 Q Are you the president of that business as well. 18 Q Then come 2009 is that when the company really started
19 A I am listed as the Chief Executive Officer. Under 19 to perform its work?
20 corporate filings in certain states...and we file both in 20 A Yes.
21 Delaware and in Florida as a foreign corporation...you are 21 Q Do you recall which staff you had working out of the
22 required to have officer/director designations for a president, 22 subject property in 2009?
23 for a secretary. Those are the two main ones. I am designated 23 A Yeah, but you're not going to get me to spell these for
24 as President through the corporate filings, but that's not my 24 you.
25 title at the company. 25 Q That's okay. If you can't spell them, I understand.
Page 31 Page 33
1 Q Okay. How many employees do you have? 1 A Karuna Carsacala Bachtala (phonetic) was one. We had
2 A We have probably -- I mean, it depends what you include 2 --
3 as employees, but probably eight or nine, something like that. 3 Q Madam reporter is like...huh.
4 Q How many partners do you have? 4 A We had Huashan Lu. Those are the ones that I can
5 A I'm going to assume that by "partners" you mean 5 recall. We had others, that I don't remember their names, that
6 investors -- 6 were just as confusing and, you know, that are no longer with
7 Q Yes. 7 the company.
8 A -- that are my partners that way? 8 Q Okay.
9 Q Yes, sir. 9 A But, yeah.
10 A I would say probably close to 30. 10 Q Are the two names you gave me still at the company?
11 Q Has this business ever operated out of the subject 11 A No.
12 residence? 12 Q Do you retain employment records?
13 A Yes. 13 A Yeah.
14 Q In what years did it operate out of the subject 14 Q Do you still have the employment records of the
15 residence? 15 employees that worked out of the subject property in 2009?
16 A When we first incorporated. I'm not sure we used that 16 A I don't, but I imagine our office manager probably
17 as the principal address, but for all intents and purposes 17 would.
18 that's where would he met. 18 Q How long did the business function out of the subject
19 Q So, that would have been in 2008? 19 property?
20 A Yes. 20 A I don't recall.
21 Q When the business was operating out of the subject 21 Q Was it more than a year?
22 property, did the employees actually work at the subject 22 A It could have been around that time.
23 property? 23 Q So, approximately a year?
24 A Some did during 2009. 24 A It may have been, yeah. I mean, it wasn't years. I
25 Q Did any employees actually work for Eyecast on the 25 could tell you that.
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1 Q And after you stopped -- let me rephrase that. 1 A I don't really know how to answer that question because
2 A We moved to Sunrise after that. 2 we do, and can get involved, with inquiries regarding incidents
3 Q Thank you. That was exactly what my question was going 3 that occur for video that we stored. And sometimes those
4 to be. 4 incidents include incidents in our own building that own and we
5 Where did you go? 5 monitor ourselves. So, you could conceivably say that in those
6 A It was a previous address. 6 instances we're involved with investigative services.
7 Q The previous address you gave me on Sunrise? 7 Q Have you ever used your business Eyecast to investigate
8 A No, it was previous to that address. It was a 8 anything relating to this case?
9 different Sunrise address. 9 A Not that I recall.
10 Q How long were you at the prior Sunrise address? 10 Q Have you ever used Eyecast, or any of its employees, to
11 A I don't remember that. 11 investigate a county employee?
12 Q How long have you been at the current Sunrise address? 12 A Not that I recall.
13 Do you remember that? 13 Q Have you ever been married?
14 A I would guess we bought the building out there probably 14 A No. That one I recall.
15 four years ago maybe. You can find that in the public records 15 Q Do you have any children?
16 under that address. We actually -- our company has a 16 A No.
17 wholly-owned subsidiary that owns the building which is called 17 Q I should have asked you this far earlier. I'm sure the
18 OCP8360 Property, LLC. If you look that up, you will find an 18 answer is going to be no, but I assume your hearing is fine, and
19 actual date. 19 you're hearing me okay during the course of this deposition?
20 Q Okay. Have you been the CEO since the company's 20 A Actually, I have somewhat diminished hearing.
21 inception? 21 Q Okay. Do you need me to speak louder, to speak slower?
22 A Yes. 22 A If I don't hear you, I will tell you.
23 Q What are your duties as CEO? 23 Q Thank you. I should have asked you this earlier as
24 A Really? You want to ask that question? 24 well.
25 Q I'm going to ask you that question. 25 Is there any medicine that you take on a daily basis
Page 35 Page 37
1 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of that 1 that would interfere with your ability to participate in this
2 question. 2 deposition today?
3 THE WITNESS: I mean, the same as the CEO of any 3 A Not that I know of.
4 small startup company. You really want me to go through 4 Q Just checking.
5 that with you? 5 At any point in time, did you ever get a chance to read
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 the deposition of Steve Carney?
7 Q Yes, because I don't know what that entails. 7 A No.
8 A So, you run day-to-day, and you run strategy planning, 8 Q Have you ever read the deposition of John Ricisak?
9 process methodologies. You report to your investors, to the 9 A No.
10 Board, and that's pretty much it. 10 Q Have you ever read the deposition of Ed Swakon?
11 Q How often do you actually work out of the physical 11 A No.
12 location where Eyecast is based? 12 Q Have you ever read the deposition of Rainer Schael?
13 A It depends on the week, month and year. Sometimes it's 13 A No, but I can help you with this. That's why I hired
14 as many as -- it has been as many as four, five days a week in 14 him (indicating).
15 Sunrise, to as little as maybe one day a week, one day every two 15 Q Referring to Mr. Leary?
16 weeks. It just depends on how much is needed, how many customer 16 A Yes.
17 meetings I have, how many supplier meetings, you know, whatever. 17 Q Have you ever read the EQCB transcript?
18 It just depends on the schedule. 18 A No.
19 Q I understand that your business, from what you've told 19 Q Have you ever read your prior testimony before the
20 me, stores video surveillance. 20 EQCB?
21 A Correct. 21 A No.
22 Q Does it ever function as a private investigating 22 Q Have you ever read any court proceedings, any
23 agency? 23 transcripts of court proceedings from this case?
24 A As a private investigating agency? 24 A Probably. Hold on. Hold on.
25 Q Yes. 25 Q Sorry. By transcripts I'm referring to -- transcripts
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1 would be like deposition transcripts where the court reporter 1 Q How long have you been the Vice-Mayor of Palmetto Bay?
2 writes down what the Judge says and what the parties say. 2 A Three and a half years.
3 A Right. 3 Q How long is your term?
4 Q Not pleadings and documents that are filed in cases. 4 A Four years.
5 A I read what my attorney puts in front of me, so you'd 5 Q When were you first elected to the position?
6 have to ask him. 6 A Three and a half years ago.
7 Q Okay. Fair enough. 7 Q Do you recall a specific date?
8 A And I don't read a lot, if I don't have to. 8 A It was the November elections of 2012. It was a
9 Q You told me that you own the subject property and that 9 runoff, so it was two weeks after election day that year. And
10 you own the property in Coconut Grove. 10 then, technically you become Vice-Mayor when you're sworn in,
11 Do you currently own -- well, that your business owns 11 which is the first Monday of December during a Council meeting
12 the property in Fort Lauderdale. 12 that same year.
13 Do you personally own any other businesses? I mean, do 13 Q Briefly what are your duties as Vice-Mayor?
14 you personally own any other properties? I'm sorry. 14 A Briefly, to represent the interests of the community.
15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 15 Q Does the Village of Palmetto Bay also have
16 THE WITNESS: Any other properties? 16 commissioners?
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 A They're called council members.
18 Q That was a bad question. 18 Q The council members of the Village of Palmetto Bay, how
19 A No. 19 is their job different than yours?
20 Q No? 20 A The only one that has a different job that I do is the
21 A No. 21 Mayor. He has a slightly broader scale of duties than the other
22 Q You understand what I meant. Do you own any other real 22 four council members. He's generally the one -- well, by
23 estate in the State of Florida as an individual? 23 charter his duties expand through both increased salary and
24 A No. 24 appearance -- he's the designated face of the village, if you
25 Q Are you currently a member of any Miami-Dade County 25 will. So, for public appearances he's usually the one, or he or
Page 39 Page 41
1 boards? 1 she is usually the one that would make appearances and speak on
2 A No. 2 behalf of the Village for ceremonial purposes. Otherwise, all
3 Q Are you currently a member of any Miami-Dade County 3 five council members, being a strong manager counsel government
4 committees? 4 forum, have equal responsibility in voting and bringing forth
5 A No. 5 legislation.
6 Q You used to be a member of a Miami-Dade County 6 Q I'm just curious, because I don't know, so hopefully
7 committee? 7 you can educate me.
8 A Yes, you sat on one with me once. 8 If all of the council members have the same
9 Q Twice I think actually. I had to sit in for the other 9 responsibilities as the Vice-Mayor, why the different titles?
10 lawyer. 10 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance and the form.
11 What committee was that? 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean, this is way outside the
12 A It was the ITC, International Trade Consortium, that 12 scope here but...
13 had some other name before that. 13 BY MR. ANGELL:
14 Q When did you stop serving on that committee? 14 Q I understand.
15 A That would have been I guess 2014 when there was a 15 A But the Vice-Mayor, one of the duties of the Vice-Mayor
16 change in commissioners for the district and a reappointment. 16 is to step in for the Mayor in case the Mayor can no longer
17 Q Originally were you appointed by Linda Bell? 17 perform his duties. So, it's just like with the Vice-President
18 A Correct. 18 of the United States, and Lieutenant Governor of a state, their
19 Q What about Commissioner Cava? 19 principal duty is to be there just in case. In my situation, I
20 A Someone else. 20 am basically just an equal council member that also shares a
21 Q And you currently hold a political position as well, 21 duty to step in, in the event that the Mayor...
22 correct? 22 The other difference is that we don't have what's
23 A I am an elected official, yes. 23 called single-member districts, which means you can only vote
24 Q What is your official title as elected official? 24 for people if you're in the district you are running for. We
25 A Vice-Mayor of Palmetto Bay. 25 don't have that form of government. Everybody votes for
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1 everybody. However, Districts 1, 2 and 3, which are the other 1 Q What was your relationship with Ms. Weis?
2 seats, you actually have to reside in those districts in order 2 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of that question.
3 to run for those districts. So, Vice-Mayor is an enlarged 3 THE WITNESS: She was -- we were engaged.
4 position just like the Mayor. 4 BY MR. ANGELL:
5 Q Your term then is up soon, correct? 5 Q Where does she currently reside?
6 A Yes, this year. 6 A I don't know.
7 Q So, you're running for reelection currently? 7 Q Do you know if she still resides in Florida?
8 A Yes. 8 A I believe she does not.
9 Q Are you a member of any Village boards? 9 Q There was an individual, maybe a year ago, who stayed
10 A There are various legal entities that we are 10 with you for a short period of time, who had a pending criminal
11 effectively members of board of directors of parallel entities. 11 matter.
12 It's just as a matter of legal form, that really have no 12 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance.
13 significance other than rubber-stamping certain things that have13 BY MR. ANGELL:
14 to be done legislatively and legally. 14 Q What was that person's name?
15 Q Are any of those boards environmental in nature? 15 A It was Stanley Kowlessar, Jr.
16 A No. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Last name?
17 Q When did you first to run as Vice-Mayor? 17 THE WITNESS: K-O-W-L-E-S-S-A-R.
18 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to -- 19 Q What years did he live with you -- or let me rephrase
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 that.
21 Q The first time? 21 During what time period did he live with you?
22 A -- the first time? 22 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance.
23 Q Yes. 23 THE WITNESS: I was the court-appointed guardian,
24 A Probably -- I would guess probably maybe November of 24 and he stayed at the house during that appointment, from I
25 2011, November or December, probably, or close to it. 25 think it was April of 2015 to June of 2015 maybe, or
Page 43 Page 45
1 Q The subject property, what date did you acquire it? 1 thereabouts.
2 A This would have been I think July 24th of 2000. 2 BY MR. ANGELL:
3 Q You said that you had moved into that property after 3 Q Did you have any other individuals who stayed on your
4 the construction of the house in 2000 -- 4 property for a short period of time, not years, but like Mr.
5 A '07. 5 Kowlessar, for months?
6 Q -- '07? Do you currently reside on the subject 6 A Not that I know of.
7 property full-time? 7 Q So, no long-term visitors? No family that came into
8 A Yes, when I'm in town, yes. 8 town to stay?
9 Q You say when you're in town. When you're not town is 9 A Not long-term, no.
10 it for travel, also, or do you have another residence, also? 10 Q So, has anybody other than Mr. Kowlessar lived at your
11 A No, I don't have a residence anywhere else. 11 -- let me rephrase.
12 Q Since you constructed the house in 2007 to present has 12 Has anybody, other than Mr. Kowlessar and Ms. Weis,
13 anybody lived in that property with you? 13 lived on your property for more than a month at a time?
14 A Yes. 14 A No.
15 Q Who? 15 Q Did you know Mr. Kowlessar before you were appointed as
16 A Her name is Monica Weis. 16 his representative?
17 Q Can you spell the last name for me? 17 A Of course.
18 A W-E-I-S. 18 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance.
19 Q How long -- I should rephrase. 19 BY MR. ANGELL:
20 When did Ms. Weis reside in that property? 20 Q How long have you known him?
21 A Pretty much from the middle of 2007 to some time in 21 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance.
22 2008, as I recall. 22 THE WITNESS: Many years.
23 Q Other than Ms. Weis, has anybody else lived on that 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
24 property? 24 Q When you say "many years," I don't know what that
25 A No. 25 means.
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1 A I mean, you're going to have to specify on what you 1 Q Did you ever speak to Ms. Weis about the landscaping of
2 mean by "known him." 2 the property?
3 Q Well -- 3 A I don't recall. It's entirely possible.
4 A What does that mean? 4 Q Do you know if Ms. Weis was ever on the subject
5 Q At some point in time you met Mr. Kowlessar, correct? 5 property when any work was being done on the subject property?
7 Q When did you meet him first? 7 Q What did Ms. Weis do for a living?
8 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. I'm going to 8 A She worked in the pharmaceutical industry.
9 have a standing objection to all questions regarding Mr. 9 Q Do you know for what company?
10 Kowlessar. 10 A No, I don't recall.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I was friends with his father, 11 Q Do you know her date of birth?
12 and he -- and I was over at the Kowlessar's home all the 12 A No. I mean...
13 time while Stanley, Jr., lived there. So, every time there 13 Q Do you know if she ever had a valid Florida Driver's
14 was a party there, or at my house, or whatever, he was -- I 14 license.
15 would probably say it's possible it's 40 or 50 times prior 15 A I've never seen it. And actually, I never asked, but I
16 to the court-appointed guardianship. 16 assume the answer is yes. I might be wrong. I don't know.
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 Q Did Ms. Weis ever have any children that stayed with
18 Q Prior to the construction of your house, did you know 18 you on the property?
19 him? 19 A No.
20 A Prior to the construction of the house? Prior to the 20 Q Other than Ms. Weis, are there any friends or
21 beginning of the construction of the house, no. 21 individuals, that were not in your employment, who you recall
22 Q So, while the construction was -- let me rephrase that. 22 having been on the property during the construction of your
23 During the course of the construction of the house did 23 home?
24 you come to know him? 24 A Say that again, please.
25 A Yes. 25 Q Sure. Other than Ms. Weis, were there any friends or
Page 47 Page 49
1 Q Had he or his family ever been on your property during 1 acquaintances that you can recall who were not in your employ,
2 the construction of the home? 2 who had been on the subject property during the construction of
3 A I don't recall. 3 the home?
4 Q How long were you in a relationship with Ms. Weis? 4 A Yeah, for sure.
5 MR. LEARY: Completely object to the relevancy of 5 Q Do you recall who those people were?
6 this question. 6 A I can tell you there were a lot. The ones I could tell
7 THE WITNESS: A long time. 7 you for sure that were there would have been Alan and Ann
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 Zabelinski.
9 Q Had Ms. Weis -- 9 You said during the construction, right?
10 A To answer your question, I knew her before, well before 10 Q Yes.
11 that period where she moved in. 11 A Certainly them. There were a lot of people that were
12 Q Had Ms. Weis ever been to the property, the subject 12 there. I just don't recall who it was.
13 property, prior to the construction of the house? 13 Q No one else comes to mind?
14 A To be honest, I don't know. I don't recall. It's 14 A They were there probably, by far, the most, because
15 possible. 15 they lived across the street. They were my very close friends
16 Q Do you know if Ms. Weis ever had been on the property 16 for a long period of time.
17 during the construction of the house? 17 Q Do they still reside across the street?
18 A It's possible. I don't recall specifically. 18 A More or less, yeah. I mean, it's not across the
19 Q When the house was being built, did you ever consult 19 street. It's walking distance. It's 169th, right off Old
20 with Ms. Weis about the location of the house? 20 Cutler.
21 A No. 21 Q During the construction of the home, to your knowledge,
22 Q Did you ever consult with Ms. Weis about landscaping on 22 was April Burch or her father, Elliot Burch, on your property?
23 the property? 23 A Say the question again.
24 A Actually, I'm going to have to rephrase that. I don't 24 Q During the construction of your home, to your
25 recall. It's entirely possible. 25 knowledge, was April Burch, or her father, Elliott Burch, on the
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1 subject property? 1 important.
2 A Probably. 2 Q Okay. Well, I didn't know if you silenced it, sir.
3 Q Do you actually recall seeing them on the property? 3 Do you know how long the property had been on the
4 A I recall seeing them on the property. I don't 4 market prior to you purchasing it?
5 actually -- and I recall speaking to them for hours out in the 5 A The subject property?
6 yard. I don't actually recall whether that was before, or 6 Q Yes, the subject property.
7 during construction. 7 A How long had it been on the market? I know it had been
8 Q How about Clifford Kunde? Do you recall if he had ever 8 on the market for a very long period of time, because they had
9 been on the property during the construction of the home? 9 some, I think, construction plans associated with it prior to me
10 A I would give the same answer there. Certainly before 10 looking at it, in an earlier period where there was supposed to
11 construction. After construction maybe, or maybe not during. I 11 be a seven-home development, or something on there. And they
12 don't recall. 12 were trying to sell it to developers, so it was kind of in a
13 Q Is there anybody else that you can recall that was on 13 different category. And it was on the market for a long period
14 the property during the construction of the home, or potentially 14 of time because they tried to sell it that way, and then they
15 on the property during the construction of the home, that was 15 tried to sell it afterwards as a single-family home, and they
16 not in your employ, other than the Burches, Clifford Kunde, and 16 kept lowering the price...bla, bla, bla.
17 the neighbors a few ways up, the Zebeilinskis? 17 Q It was on the market for a couple of years, right?
18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 18 A At least, yeah.
19 THE WITNESS: I mean, there were a ton of people on 19 Q Do you know if it was on the market for more than five
20 my property during construction. Obviously, a gazillion 20 years?
21 construction people, contractors, people that were making 21 A I don't know.
22 introductions -- people that knew me that were making 22 Q Did you ever actually meet the Walbergs?
23 introductions to contractors and subcontractors, or 23 A No, I didn't.
24 whatever. I just don't recall. It was a very long list of 24 Q Do you know if the Walbergs are still alive?
25 people. It was in the thousands. 25 A I would really doubt it, but I'd have no way of
Page 51 Page 53
1 BY MR. ANGELL: 1 knowing, though.
2 Q Had Linda Bell ever been on your property during the 2 Q Did you ever hear, or were you ever told if the
3 construction? 3 Walbergs had any children?
4 A Not to my knowledge, no, at least not while I was 4 A I never asked, and I don't recall anybody ever
5 there. 5 mentioning it to me.
6 Q When you purchased the subject property, was your real 6 Q Was your purchase of the property directly with the
7 estate license still valid? 7 Walbergs? I mean, were they the people selling it, or was it
8 A In Virginia? 8 the estate? Do you recall?
9 Q Did you ever have a Florida real estate license? 9 A I believe it was directly with them.
10 A No. 10 Q When you first went to look at the property, other than
11 Q Never mind then. 11 the realtor, did anybody else go with you to tour the property?
12 When you purchased the subject property, did you use a 12 A Not that I recall. You mean with the real estate
13 realtor? 13 agent?
14 A Yes. 14 Q Yeah, other than the real estate agent.
15 Q What company did you use? 15 A At the same time the real estate agent was there? Is
16 A It was EWM, yeah. 16 that what you're asking?
17 Q EWM? 17 Q No, no. I understand that when you went to go see the
18 A EWM I think it was. 18 property the real estate agent was most likely with you.
19 Q Do you know who specifically from that company you 19 A Right.
20 used? 20 Q Other than yourself and the real estate agent, was
21 A God! She was an old lady. I really don't remember her 21 there anybody else with you when you first viewed the subject
22 name. 22 property?
23 Q Do you need to get that, or if you need to take a break 23 A Before I bought it?
24 if that was you? 24 Q Before you bought it.
25 A No. If it only rings for a split second it's not that 25 A I don't recall.
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1 Q During the time period that you were considering 1 the house, had it been repaired at all since Hurricane Andrew?
2 purchasing the subject property, did you ever bring anybody with 2 A No, my understanding -- excuse me. My understanding,
3 you, other than the real estate agent, to look at the property? 3 as the story went, is that the Walbergs were actually occupied
4 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 4 in the house during the hurricane. And then, they were so
5 THE WITNESS: I don't really recall. I mean, we're 5 tormented by what happened that they moved downtown to a
6 talking about, you know, over 15 years ago. 6 high-rise, and never came back to the property, never put a blue
7 BY MR. ANGELL: 7 tarp on it, never did anything to try to preserve or protect it.
8 Q When you were considering buying the property were you 8 So, it sat unattended, unrepaired, and exposed to the elements
9 still in a relationship with Ms. Weis? 9 from August of '92 until I bought it to in 200, severely
10 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 10 damaged.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the timing of the 11 Q I've heard differing things about how soon after Andrew
12 relationship, of the periods of the relationship so I can't 12 that the Walbergs departed the property. Although, I'm sure it
13 answer that question. 13 was all shortly after Andrew.
14 BY MR. ANGELL: 14 What is your understanding as to when they abandoned
15 Q Do you know if Ms. Weis ever viewed the property prior 15 the property?
16 to the construction of the house beginning? 16 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question.
17 A Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: Like I told you, that was my
18 Q Do you know if she ever viewed the property prior to 18 understanding through thirdhand information.
19 your purchase of the subject property? 19 BY MR. ANGELL:
20 A I would say no, because I didn't live in Florida at the 20 Q Who was that thirdhand information from?
21 time. 21 A I believe it was from the real estate agent at the
22 Q Do you know when the Certificate of Occupancy was 22 time. She was also the listing agent of the property, so she
23 issued for the house? 23 knew the Walbergs.
24 A December of 2006. 24 Q Was there any other real estate agent involved in the
25 Q Other than Eyecast, which I know had a different name 25 transaction?
Page 55 Page 57
1 originally, was there any other business run out of your home? 1 A No, I don't think so. I mean, other than her
2 A Not that I recall. 2 associates that would help me with the transaction.
3 Q When you first went and viewed the property with the 3 Q I understand that.
4 real estate agent -- well, let me ask it this way. The first 4 If I understand correctly, the real estate agent told
5 time you went on that property were you with the real estate 5 you that the Walbergs moved off the property and didn't want
6 agent? 6 anything to do with the house, so to speak, is that correct?
7 A Yes. 7 A Right.
8 Q Have you ever been on that property, prior to its 8 Q Did she express to you if the Walbergs had ever come
9 purchase, alone without the real estate agent? 9 back to the property for any other purpose?
10 A No. 10 A No.
11 Q At the time that you first saw the subject property 11 Q Do you currently employ a landscaper?
12 with the real estate agent, was there any structure on the 12 A Yeah.
13 property? 13 Q And who is that?
14 A Yes. 14 A Patrick Deary. They're called Trimscape.
15 Q What was that structure? 15 Q How long have you had Trimscape in your employ?
16 A That was the original house built in 1926. 16 A I would say maybe two years.
17 Q Where was the original house located? 17 Q Did you have a landscaping company prior to them.
18 A It was probably within 100 feet off of Old Cutler Road. 18 A No, I had a bunch of lawn mowers.
19 Q What state was the house in? 19 Q Before the landscaping company, so two years, 2014
20 A Well, I actually worked with the architects. We tried 20 roughly?
21 to put some plans together for selective demolition so we could 21 A I think so.
22 keep it as kind of a guest house or historical property, but 22 Q So, from 2007 to 2014, who was doing your lawn
23 that didn't work out. The amount of damage after Hurricane 23 maintenance?
24 Andrew was too significant. 24 A I did a lot of it myself, and I would have -- it was
25 Q Had the house been repaired at all? From your view of 25 mostly me. There were some workers I had periodically over the
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1 years that would do it, as well. 1 Q I understand you never contracted anybody else but, to
2 Q The workers that you had periodically over the years 2 your knowledge, did anybody else, other than him and yourself,
3 that would assist with lawn maintenance, were they with any 3 trim mangroves on your property?
4 specific company? 4 A Yeah, I'm sure there have been. I mean, a lot of my
5 A No. 5 workers that I've directed to trim like the circular hedge
6 Q Do you recall the names of any of those workers? 6 around the basin there, have trimmed. There's a guy from
7 A Yeah, one was Salvador Halpin. One was Rainier 7 Vermont named Tinker, he was one of my property -- he worked on
8 Santana. One was David Ruiz. Let me think. There was Joe 8 my property during construction. He used to do trimming back
9 Mora, Joseph Mora. Those are the ones that come to mind. I 9 then. So, yeah, I mean, various people would help.
10 mean, I'm sure there were a lot more. 10 MR. LEARY: To clarify, are you talking about
11 Q And all four of these people were not affiliated with a 11 voluntarily, or are these still workers?
12 company, to your knowledge? 12 MR. ANGELL: I'm sorry?
13 A Correct. 13 MR. LEARY: Your question where you're talking
14 Q How did you find them? 14 about people who were -- sorry.
15 A Just through referrals, just people that needed work. 15 MR. ANGELL: I'll rephrase the question. If you're
16 Q Do you keep records of the work that they did for you 16 you don't understand I'll rephrase it.
17 on the property? 17 BY MR. ANGELL:
18 A Not really. 18 Q I'm asking from 2007, after the house is built, is
19 Q Did you keep records of payment of these people? 19 there anybody --
20 A Not really. A lot of it was cash. 20 A Say the years.
21 Q Did you ever have any contracts with any of these 21 Q From 2007 to 2014?
22 people for work on the property? 22 A Right.
23 A No. 23 Q From 2007 to 2014, other than the people that you've
24 Q Do you currently have a contract with Trimscape for 24 mentioned, who was yourself, is there anybody else other than
25 work on the property? 25 you, to your knowledge --
Page 59 Page 61
1 A No, there's no contracts. 1 A No.
2 Q Does Trimscape currently engage in the maintenance of 2 Q -- has trimmed mangroves on the property?
3 mangroves on your property? 3 A Like I said, the only people that would assist me, I
4 A No. 4 was always there during trimming. I'd do the trimming myself,
5 Q To your knowledge, has Trimscape has ever trimmed or 5 for the most part, and I'd have helpers that would put the stuff
6 altered any mangroves on your property? 6 -- collect it and put the trimmings on the truck, and that sort
7 A Not to my knowledge, but... 7 of thing.
8 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 8 Q Now, before the house construction, after the purchase
9 THE WITNESS: I mean, obviously I'm not there when 9 of the property, you had James Robinson do some trimming on the
10 they're there. So, I mean, I can't say 100%. 10 property, correct?
11 BY MR. ANGELL: 11 A After purchase, yes.
12 Q The other four individuals that you listed, who were in 12 Q What year did he do work on your property?
13 your employ some time between 2007 to 2014, to do some form of 13 A I believe -- I can tell you when he started. I don't
14 the lawn maintenance, did any of these four individuals, to your 14 recall -- And, again, he was a PMT.
15 knowledge, ever trim mangroves on your property? 15 Q Yeah.
16 A I would say all of them probably assisted with, you 16 A -- with Dade County, so he was the licensed PMT, but he
17 know, taking trimmings and putting them on the trucks and taking 17 didn't do any trimming, himself, I don't think. I think he
18 them to the dump, that sort of thing, but I always did the 18 subcontracts to, or did, to a tree company, and they actually
19 cutting, or trimming. 19 would do the trimming.
20 Q I know that you, at some point, had a gentlemen named 20 Q Do you know when you retained him?
21 Mr. Robinson, James Robinson, do trimming on your property. 21 A Yeah. Like I said, the beginning of it was...and this
22 A Correct. 22 is all in the documents you guys have. It was either 2003,
23 Q Other than him and yourself, have you ever had anyone 23 2002, somewhere in there.
24 else do trimming on your property of mangroves? 24 Q Do you know who he subcontracted with to do the
25 A No, I never contracted anyone else. 25 trimming?
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1 A I don't recall. 1 not trying to give you a hard time. I'm just trying to
2 Q Do you know how many times he conducted trimming on 2 understand the period of times that Mr. Robinson was working on
3 your property? 3 the property.
4 A I don't recall. I was -- actually, I'm wrong. He 4 My understanding is that his work on the property was
5 probably started before 2002, because I think I was still out of 5 done pre-construction of the home.
6 town. So, he was on the property sometimes when I was out of 6 Is that your recollection?
7 town in Virginia. So, it might have even been before 2002. 7 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
8 Q Did you know him prior to retaining his services? 8 THE WITNESS: For the most part, yeah, yeah.
9 A No. 9 BY MR. ANGELL:
10 Q Do you know for how many -- well, I understand you said 10 Q And if I understand you correctly, you're uncertain
11 you don't know how many times James Robinson, or his 11 whether or not he may have been doing some trimming on the
12 subcontractors -- 12 property, or his subcontractors may have been doing some
13 A Yeah. 13 trimming on the property?
14 Q -- did trimming on your property? 14 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question.
15 A Yeah. I wasn't there for a large portion of it. In 15 THE WITNESS: I'd have to go back to the paperwork
16 fact, I'm not sure I was ever there when his people would do the 16 and check if I can even find it. I just don't recall.
17 trimming. 17 BY MR. ANGELL:
18 Q But your understanding is that he did trimming on your 18 Q I know you said that he has at least trimmed more than
19 property on more than one occasion? 19 once on the property.
20 A Yeah. 20 A Yes.
21 Q Did he send you a bill for each time he trimmed? 21 Q Do you know if it was more than five times?
22 A I honestly don't recall. I mean, like I said, there 22 A I don't recall. Like I said, I wasn't there, I don't
23 were thousands of invoices and stuff going on during that 23 think, ever during his trimmings.
24 period. 24 Q Do you know if it was over a period of more than a
25 Q Did you have a contract with him? 25 year?
Page 63 Page 65
2 Q Do you still have that contract? 2 Q How did you come to choose Mr. Robinson as the person
3 A I think it has been -- I think -- actually, let me 3 for the PMT?
4 rephrase that. I'm not sure I have a contract with him. I 4 A He, and I think one other, like I think him and David
5 believe there was a contract. I provided, through my attorney, 5 Ettman were the two that were recommended by Cliff Kunde as
6 all the paperwork during discovery on that. So, if I had it, I 6 former DERM employees and PMT's.
7 would have given it to you. I just don't recall. 7 Q Did you ever have David Ettman on your property?
8 I mean, I do recall that there was an agreement I had 8 A Yes.
9 with him. I don't recall whether I had the paperwork at the 9 Q And when was he on your property?
10 time you did the discovery, and whether it was turned over to 10 A I know he was on the property before Cliff Kunde's
11 you guys, or not, if it did exist. 11 father died next door, because he was the one that actually made
12 Q Did Mr. Robinson remain in your employment during the 12 the introduction, now that I think about it.
13 construction of the home? 13 Q Cliff Kunde's father died in 2006.
14 A I'd have to go back and check, because I don't recall 14 A I'm impressed.
15 exactly if it was 2003. The construction started in 2003, so 15 Q We just took his depo last week. That's the only
16 the answer would be yes. I just don't recall the years. 16 reason we know.
17 Q Do you recall if anyone was employed by you to do 17 MR. LEARY: We just took his deposition.
18 mangrove trimming during the actual construction period of the 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 home? 19 Q That's the only reason I know, and then his mother died
20 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 20 in 2010.
21 THE WITNESS: No, not that I recall, other than -- 21 A Yeah, so before 2006 Cliff Kunde's father introduced me
22 as I said, if there was any, it would have been helpers for 22 to David Ettman. That was the first time I met him on my
23 the most part. I don't recall. I really don't. I just -- 23 property, in the back looking at the mangroves, actually.
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 Q Do you know when you first met David -- is it Ettman?
25 Q I'm just trying to understand the periods of time. I'm 25 A Ettman...E-T-T-M-A-N...or something like that.
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1 MR. LEARY: Yes. 1 Q Once you retained Mr. Robinson, did you have him deal
2 BY MR. ANGELL: 2 with your general contractor directly?
3 Q When you first met David Ettman, had construction 3 A No.
4 already begun on your home? 4 Q To your knowledge, prior to the construction of the
5 A I don't recall. 5 home, did anyone do a wetland delineation on that property?
6 Q Did you ever interview David Ettman to do work on your 6 A Oh, and there was another one, Swakon also did work for
7 property? 7 me. And I didn't even remember that he did, other than I had
8 A Yes. 8 issued some checks to him. Like I said, I just don't get
9 Q Do you recall if you met with David Ettman before you 9 involved. There was so much paper flying around. It wasn't
10 met with James Robinson? 10 just the general contractor. We had the architects that were
11 A I can't say with 100% certainty, but I'd say probably 11 involved with making sure that the plans were getting approved
12 not. It was probably afterwards. 12 to get my permits. So, every time -- and DERM was the Agency
13 Q Do you recall if you met with David Ettman after you 13 that extended the time period for getting approval. Every other
14 had hired James Robinson? 14 -- I believe every other part of Dade County had approved the
15 A Well, definitely after. I met with him. 15 plans for permitting within three or four months. DERM took 362
16 Q On your contract with James Robinson what services was 16 days. So, there was a lot of back and forth with DERM.
17 he supposed to perform for you? 17 At that time, it wouldn't have been through the general
18 A Mangrove trimming. 18 contractor because construction hadn't started. That would have
19 Q On what parts of your property? 19 been through the architects and engineers. So, those are the
20 A I'd have to go back to the same paperwork that you'd be 20 people that would have recommended Swakon and Carney and those
21 going back to. I don't know how to describe it, and I don't 21 other people, not my general contractor.
22 recall the details without looking at the paperwork. 22 Q I'm sorry. You said who would have recommended Swakon?
23 Q Okay. We will show you some pictures later on. 23 A My architects and engineers.
24 A All right. 24 Q And who was your architectural firm?
25 Q Do you recall when the last time was that James 25 A It was Portuondo Perotti.
Page 67 Page 69
1 Robinson was on your property himself? 1 Q So, prior to the construction of your home beginning,
2 A The attorney or the mangrove trimmer? 2 do you know if anyone did a wetland delineation on your
3 Q The mangrove trimmer. 3 property?
4 A James Robinson. 4 A Like I said, I know Carney did some work. I know
5 Q The attorney is Tom Robertson. 5 Robinson did some work. I just recalled Swakon did some work.
6 So, Mr. Robinson, do you recall when James Robinson was 6 There were some other engineering firms also that did work
7 last on your property? 7 related to the grounds of the property. I just don't really
8 A No. Like I said, I wasn't there when he did the 8 recall.
9 trimming every time. 9 Q So, you don't recall if any of these people that you
10 Q So, we're clear, Mr. Robinson was never hired to do any 10 mentioned did an actual --
11 form of wetland delineation on your property, correct? 11 A I didn't know --
12 A I don't recall. I mean, there was -- during 12 Q She can't take us both down.
13 construction I know Steve Carney was hired as a recommended 13 You don't recall if any of these people on the property
14 consultant back then. Robinson was hired on the mangroves 14 ever told you, or if you were ever informed that any of these
15 trimming. I had, you know, my general contractor and other 15 people did a wetland delineation prior to the start of
16 people were managing paperwork back and forth. I really don't 16 construction?
17 remember. I mean, I was not that hands-on. I was not that 17 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question.
18 involved. 18 THE WITNESS: I can tell you at that time that
19 Q Did you have someone managing that aspect for you of 19 you're referring to I didn't know what a wetland delineation
20 the construction? 20 was. So, it would have gone just way over my head, and it
21 A The general contractor. 21 wouldn't have sunk in. So, I have no recollection of it.
22 Q Okay. Understood. You hired a general contractor. 22 BY MR. ANGELL:
23 Was there anybody else that you had in your employment 23 Q You told me about the architect that you recall being
24 to oversee the general contractor? 24 in your employ for the property. What engineers?
25 A No. I did. 25 A There were a bunch. There were a whole lot.
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1 Q Do you remember what companies? 1 take his name down and depose him.
2 A I couldn't even tell you the first one, because the way 2 Q That's my next question: What's his name?
3 it works in construction is you contract with the architect, 3 A His name is William Real. I call him Willie, Willie
4 let's say X dollars per foot. That includes architectural 4 Real.
5 services, and all the engineering services. Some of the 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 5 minutes.
6 architectural firms have inhouse engineers. Some of them 6 MR. ANGELL: Oh, we need to take a break in five
7 subcontract. 7 because the tape's going to run out.
8 Portuondo Perotti, for the most part, outsourced most 8 THE WITNESS: Civic Construction...C-I-V-I-C.
9 of the engineering because they weren't a big enough firm to 9 Civic Construction is the name of the firm.
10 have engineering in-house. And anything that the engineers were 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 to communicate with the general contractor or the property 11 Q Had you known William Real prior to retaining his
12 owner, me, would have been through the architect. So, I had 12 services?
13 very little direct interaction with any of the engineering 13 A So, if you're implying to the subject property, yes.
14 companies other than paying bills. 14 Q Yes. I'm referring to the subject property.
15 Q Do you recall any of the names of any of those 15 A Okay. So, there was another property, the one that I
16 companies? 16 lived at between 82nd and 80th Avenue where he was also the
17 A I really don't. 17 general contractor for that construction, which occurred before
18 Q When you would pay the companies for their work, did 18 the construction of my home, and before -- I believe it was
19 you pay them directly, or through the general contractor or the 19 before I selected him as the general contractor because of his
20 architect? 20 experience.
21 A Both. 21 Q So, the 10 houses that were built in the development,
22 Q I assume those would be check payments, because I would 22 William Real in the construction did that work as the general
23 imagine they're too large for cash payments. 23 contractor?
24 A (Laughter) Actually, I wouldn't say they would be too 24 A They were the general contractor, yes.
25 large for cash payments in all cases, but... 25 MR. ANGELL: I think we can take that break if you
Page 71 Page 73
1 MR. LEARY: This is Miami-Dade County after all. 1 want to switch tapes.
2 THE WITNESS: But I would say: Yes, they would 2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record. The time
3 have been checks. And if they would have been through the 3 is 12:00 p.m.
4 architect -- I'm sorry, through the general contractor, or 4 (Whereupon, a short recess was taken from 12:00
5 potentially through the architect, they could be aggregated 5 noon until 12:11 p.m.)
6 payments for a month, where I'd just write one check, and 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: One second. We're back on the
7 then they did all the disbursements. 7 record. The time is 12:11 p.m.
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 BY MR. ANGELL:
9 Q How did you pick your general contractor? 9 Q Okay. We left off talking about the general contractor
10 A I think they had Yellow Pages back then. I'm just 10 and the architect, William Real. And you had said that William
11 kidding. That was a joke. Hello? A joke. 11 Real was the general contractor for the other project.
12 Q You smiled. It's on film. 12 A For Mardel Development, yes.
13 A Somebody -- the general contractor, that's a good 13 Q Do you have a social relationship with William Real?
14 question. I do not recall how he was referred to me. 14 A I would chat on the phone a little bit, but not much
15 Q Do you recall if he had been on the property prior to 15 beyond that.
16 accepting the job? 16 Q Has he ever been to your house for non-work-related
17 A Well, of course, he would have had to have been. 17 reasons?
18 Q Do you recall how many times he had been on the 18 A I have invited him, but I don't believe he's shown up
19 property prior to accepting the job? 19 at any parties. He may have. I don't recall.
20 A I couldn't tell you because that would have been over 20 Q Do you consider William Real a friend?
21 15 years ago. 21 A Yeah, I would say so.
22 Q When he came onto the property before accepting the 22 Q When did the construction finish on your property?
23 job, for the initial inspection or any subsequent inspections, 23 A Well, the plumbers are still there today.
24 do you know if he took any photographs of the property? 24 Q Okay. I'll rephrase.
25 A I couldn't tell you that either. You're welcome to 25 The initial construction of the house, when did that
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1 finish? 1 Q And through whom is the test given?
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 2 A The person that applies, and I did apply.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, that's also a difficult one to 3 Q You applied for the test. Who administers the test?
4 answer. I mean, I could tell you the dates that the CO was 4 A Right. The ISA, I think, or a contractor for them.
5 given. 5 Q Other than take a test, is there anything else that you
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 had to do to become an arborist?
7 Q And that you've already given me. 7 A You'd have to ask them. I don't recall.
8 When was the work done by William Real concluded? 8 Q So, you don't recall if you did anything other than
9 A I don't recall. 9 take a test --
10 Q Do you know if you had William Real do any additional 10 A I don't recall.
11 work for you after the CO was issued? 11 Q -- in order to become an arborist? You don't recall?
12 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 12 A I mean, you have to take -- initially, I took a test.
13 THE WITNESS: I do not believe so. 13 I think you can get something called CEU credits, and you have
14 BY MR. ANGELL: 14 to get like 30 of them to get certification or recertification,
15 Q Do you have any staff that regularly works at your 15 or whatever it is.
16 home? 16 Q Do you have to do any continuing education?
17 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 17 A Yeah.
18 THE WITNESS: I do not have staff that regularly 18 Q How often do you have to do continuing education?
19 works in my home. 19 A I think it's every three years you need a grand total
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 of 30 CEU's which are like educational unit credits, or
21 Q Do you have -- 21 something like this.
22 A Well, is that like cleaning ladies and stuff? 22 Q Are you current on the CEU's that you are required to
23 Q You know what? Let me rephrase. 23 do to maintain your certification?
24 Do you have any staff that works there everyday of the 24 A Actually, I'm on an extension. I'm currently still
25 week? 25 technically certified under their program. My deadline was June
Page 75 Page 77
1 A No. 1 of this year, and I'm behind on my certification. So, they give
2 Q Do you have any staff that comes at least once a week? 2 me till -- I think they automatically extend till the end of
3 A The cleaning lady. 3 August, and then you ask for an extension after that, if you
4 Q And she'd never been on your property prior to the 4 need it. But, yeah, I'm behind.
5 construction of your home, I assume? 5 Q I just want to remind you unfortunately --
6 A It's hard to clean when there's nothing there to clean. 6 A Sorry.
7 Q So, I'm assuming the answer is: She's never been there 7 Q Unfortunately, we both have to wait until the other one
8 prior? 8 is finished speaking before we can respond to one another. We
9 A Correct. 9 started talking over each other, and she's making me aware in
10 Q We mentioned earlier that you are an arborist, correct? 10 nonverbal eye communications.
11 A Yes. 11 A You need the red Staples button or air horn.
12 Q When did you become an arborist? 12 Q Do you recall at all the documents you had to submit in
13 A If I recall, it was maybe -- oh, wait a minute. I 13 order to become an arborist?
14 think my first expiration was '06, so it probably would have 14 A I don't recall.
15 been three years before that. I really don't recall. 15 Q Do you recall if there is anything you had to do, other
16 Q So, approximately 2003? 16 than to take a test, in order to demonstrate your expertise?
17 A Might have been 2003. Might have been 2006. I really 17 A I don't recall.
18 don't recall. 18 Q Can you tell me about your experience as an arborist.
19 Q Is there a certification that goes with being an 19 A I do tree trimming and planting and maintaining of
20 arborist? 20 trees.
21 A What do you mean? 21 Q Do you do that just on your property, or for anybody
22 Q How do you become an arborist? I'll ask it that way. 22 else?
23 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 23 A My property, and I've done it on some other properties
24 THE WITNESS: You basically take a test. 24 as well.
25 BY MR. ANGELL: 25 Q What other properties have you worked as an arborist
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1 on? 1 mangrove statute that was placed in front of Village Hall.
2 A Well, I wouldn't say that I've worked on as an 2 Q Have you ever trimmed mangroves on anybody else's
3 arborist. I've been called by the City of Palmetto Bay to 3 property other than your own?
4 evaluate the health of some oak trees, a long time ago before 4 A No.
5 they had a certified arborist. That was before I was elected, 5 Q What is your experience in trimming mangroves? What
6 because I was on the tree board then. I was the certified 6 does it consist of?
7 arborist on the tree board for Palmetto Bay. 7 A What does it consist of?
8 And then, when I got elected, you can't be on any 8 Q Yes.
9 boards or committees after that, so I didn't do anything for the 9 A The same thing as it would trimming any other trees.
10 City after that. 10 You take a pair of clippers, you clip off a little leaf, and do
11 I did some landscape-related stuff on the Del Mar 11 it in a way that keeps the tree healthy and happy.
12 development property. And I've been called to give opinions and 12 Q Do you still do mangrove trimming on your property?
13 do letters and evaluate the health of trees, and that sort of 13 A I try to, when I have the time.
14 thing, just periodically. I don't remember the details of them. 14 Q I'm sorry?
15 Q That work where you've been called to evaluate the 15 A When I have time, yeah.
16 health, that's not for the City, correct? 16 Q How often do you do it?
17 A Correct. In addition to, yeah, right. 17 A As often as I can.
18 Q Have you ever done any work for the Burch property? 18 Q I don't know what that means.
19 A No. 19 Is that once a year? Twice a year? Once a week?
20 Q Have you ever done any work for Mr. Kunde, back when 20 A No. I mean, I would like to do it everyday, but
21 his family owned your neighboring property? 21 realistically there are some weeks where maybe it's one or two
22 A No. 22 days, and there's some months where it's zero. So, it just
23 Q Have you ever done any work for any of your neighbors 23 depends how much free time I have.
24 with regard to trimming? 24 Q Are there portions of your property that have mangroves
25 A No. 25 that you do not trim?
Page 79 Page 81
1 Q How long were you on the tree board? 1 A Oh, yeah.
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 2 Q Do you know how many species of mangroves there are?
3 THE WITNESS: Two, three, four years. I don't 3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
4 recall, to be honest with you. 4 BY MR. ANGELL:
5 BY MR. ANGELL: 5 Q I'm asking in general, not on your property.
6 Q I know it was before you were elected. 6 A Well, if you don't consider green buttonwood a
7 Do you know what years? 7 mangrove...which I don't, Dade County might, the State DEP does
8 A Gene Flinn appointed me, so it was when he was Mayor 8 not...that would be three species.
9 the first time, which would have been '02 through 2010, so it 9 Q What are they?
10 would have been prior to 2010. 10 A Red, whites and blacks.
11 Q What does the tree board do? 11 Q Can you tell me the distinguishing characteristics
12 A The City established a tree board in order to take the 12 between the three types?
13 City through a Tree City USA status, which is -- you know, you 13 A Yeah.
14 get to say you're Tree City USA certified. It entitles you to, 14 Q Please do.
15 I guess, some grant money, or additional funding sources for 15 A So, the white and the black mangroves are typically
16 landscaping, and that sort of thing. 16 found in upland areas. The red mangroves are typically more
17 They needed -- in order to get the Tree City USA status 17 coastal, deeper wetland trees. The red mangroves have the
18 they required an ISA certified arborist. Instead of hiring 18 octopus-looking grid system look to them. They have kind of
19 somebody or paying somebody, I did it as a volunteer. 19 greener long leaves with a consistent color throughout. The
20 Q Did the tree board have anything at all to do with 20 white mangroves have kind of a rounded green on both sides of
21 mangroves? 21 the leaves. And blacks have green on one side, white on the
22 A Not while I was there. 22 other side, with typically more vertical balanced trunks on them
23 Q Have you ever trimmed mangroves -- go ahead. 23 than the whites or the reds.
24 A Let me rephrase that. I believe they actually endorsed 24 Q You already stated, to some degree in your testimony,
25 or selected, in conjunction with Art in Public Places, the 25 that you are aware that mangroves are regulated by both the
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1 county government, by the state government and, to some degree, 1 Q So, do you consider yourself to be an expert in the
2 by the federal government, correct? 2 application of the Mangrove Trimming and Preservation Act?
3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question and
4 THE WITNESS: I was never aware that they were 4 to the relevance.
5 regulated by the federal government. 5 THE WITNESS: That's an unclear characterization.
7 Q Are you aware that they're regulated by the state 7 Q I'm unclear of your distinction, so can you explain to
8 government? 8 me what you mean by: You believe that you have more expertise
9 A Uh-huh (affirmative response.) 9 than anybody on County staff, as far as --
10 Q Are you aware that they're regulated by Miami-Dade 10 A Well, a distinction in terms of understanding of the
11 County? 11 Mangrove Trimming and Preservation Act, the people in the County
12 A I have read many times the Mangrove Trimming and 12 may have more knowledge of every line, and be able to cite the
13 Protection Act of 1996. 13 chapter and verse better than I can, because I've only read them
14 Q Are you aware that dead mangroves are regulated under 14 a few times, but in terms of the experience with the mangroves,
15 state statute? 15 not even close. I have far more experience than anybody who
16 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 16 works for the County, I would venture to say.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure necessarily I agree with 17 Q You've read the act, correct?
18 that interpretation. 18 A Yes.
19 BY MR. ANGELL: 19 Q How many times would you say you've read the act?
20 Q Okay. Do you agree that dead mangroves are regulated 20 A If you're talking about the state, probably -- well,
21 under the state statute? 21 probably, cover-to-cover in one reading, one sitting, probably
22 A I don't necessarily agree. 22 once, but sections of it many times over.
23 MR. LEARY: That calls for a legal conclusion. I 23 Q When is the last time that you read the Mangrove
24 object to the form of all of these questions. 24 Trimming and Preservation Act in its entirety?
25 BY MR. ANGELL: 25 A Probably four years ago...I don't know...five years
Page 83 Page 85
1 Q And why not? 1 ago.
2 A Because I've read the statutes, and I don't think that 2 Q When was the last time that you've reviewed a section
3 was the legislative intent, nor the letter of the law. 3 of the act?
4 Q Your lawyer made an objection that it calls for a legal 4 A Probably in the last year or so.
5 conclusion. 5 Q Have you read the Miami-Dade County code as it pertains
6 And so we're clear, you haven't had any legal training, 6 to mangroves?
7 correct? 7 A Yes.
8 A Correct. 8 Q When was the last time you reviewed the code?
9 Q Are you aware that dead mangroves are regulated under 9 A I would group that together with my last statement. I
10 the Miami-Dade County Code? 10 can't really distinguish whether it was state or county, or
11 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 11 separately, or both.
12 THE WITNESS: I have the same disagreement on that.12 Q Do you believe you have an expertise in how the
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 Mangrove Trimming and Preservation Act should be applied to the
14 Q What is the basis of that disagreement? 14 actual infield handling of mangroves?
15 A The same as the one with the state that I just 15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
16 articulated. 16 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say on how it should be,
17 Q Which is you don't believe it specifically says that? 17 or expertise in that. What I would say instead is that I
18 A I don't believe that was the legislative intent, nor do 18 have probably even more knowledge than any of the PMT's in
19 I believe that that is the letter of the law, in my 19 Dade County on the effects and experience. Because, if you
20 unprofessional opinion as a lawyer. 20 think about it, a professional mangrove trimmer that goes
21 Q Do you consider yourself an expert in the Mangrove 21 out and trims for a living, he goes to a site, he trims, and
22 Trimming and Preservation Act? 22 then he leaves the site. And probably a year later, or six
23 A Not in the Act, itself, but in terms of experience with 23 months later, but typically a year later or more, he will
24 mangroves, probably more so than anybody on the staff in the 24 come back, or she will come back and trim the mangroves
25 County. 25 after having done dozens of other properties. And they
22 (Pages 82 - 85)
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1 don't typically put study books together of: Oh, this is 1 county law I assume it's the same, with the exception that you
2 what it looked like last year. Let me look at the pictures 2 have to pay a fee each year, which I have never paid. I have
3 and compare it to see the health. I, on the other hand, 3 tried to pay, and it was rejected by the county improperly. And
4 live on the property where I do the trimming, so I can see 4 so, you are better suited to answer that question as to whether
5 day-to-day the effects of trimming on the different species 5 I'm a PMT than I am.
6 and how they react. 6 Q Do you know if there's any other additional requirement
7 So, I would say I'm probably more capable of 7 by the county, other than the State -- let me rephrase that.
8 trimming mangroves, to keep them healthier, certainly more 8 That was a bad question.
9 than anybody in the county, and probably more than any PMT 9 Do you know if there are any other additional
10 in Dade County. 10 requirements of Miami-Dade County for you to be a PMT, other
11 BY MR. ANGELL: 11 than what's already set forth by the state?
12 Q You mention study books. Have you, yourself, ever put 12 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
13 together a study book of the mangroves on your property? 13 THE WITNESS: What I will tell you is what the
14 A Of comparison, no. The county has done a good job of 14 agency director told me in a meeting at the South Dade
15 that for me, though. 15 Government Center face-to-face in front of Lisa Spadafina.
16 Q So, you don't keep regular photographs? 16 He told her...and I think Barbara Brown was there...to go
17 A No, I don't mean a study book. I mean a record of the 17 ahead and issue me my Dade County PMT, as long as I pay the
18 macro view of the mangroves is done by the county on a regular 18 $500. So she said: Just give it to him. So, I would
19 basis. 19 assume the answer is no. It would just be an issue of the
20 Q Do you keep any photographs of the sections of trees 20 payment. I refused to make the payment so they didn't issue
21 that you have trimmed over the years to see its growth and 21 it at the time.
22 development over time? 22 Later, I did apply for status with the county and
23 A No need to, because I'm the one doing it each time, so 23 they rejected it improperly.
24 I can tell without it. 24 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 Q Do you consider yourself to have expertise in the 25 Q When you say the director, we've had a few. Which
Page 87 Page 89
1 Miami-Dade County code in how it applies to mangroves? 1 director?
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 2 A Lee Hefty.
3 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say I have expertise in 3 Q Which one? I'm sorry.
4 the Miami-Dade County code. I've read it cover-to-cover, 4 A Lee Hefty.
5 and I've read sections of it periodically. 5 Q Do you have to register with the state to be a PMT?
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 A No.
7 Q Does the village have its own regulations concerning 7 Q Do you have to register with the county to be a PMT?
8 mangroves? 8 A You have to send them $500, and then you become
9 A No. 9 registered, as far as I know. And I guess you fill out a form
10 Q And so we're clear, are you a PMT? 10 that asks to be listed.
11 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 11 Q You said that you were improperly denied your PMT
12 THE WITNESS: It depends what you mean by a PMT. 12 registration, I guess by the county?
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 A Right.
14 Q Okay. Well, what is a PMT? 14 Q Did they give you a reason for the denial?
15 A Well, I could tell you what PMT stands for. It stands 15 A On the material that they sent back to me by mail, I
16 for professional mangrove trimmer. Do I make my living trimming 16 don't recall.
17 mangroves? No, I don't. So, am I a professional? If you 17 Q At the time that you applied to be a registered PMT
18 consider, you know, somebody that makes a living trimming 18 with the county, did the county already have an enforcement
19 mangroves, then no, I am not. 19 action against you where the county alleged that you had engaged
20 Q Do you consider yourself to be qualified to be a PMT? 20 in improper trimming of mangroves?
21 A I don't know whether I'm qualified. The ISA will have 21 A Yes. They've had the enforcement action against me for
22 to tell you that, if you ask them. 22 about four years now.
23 I will tell you -- well, first of all, a PMT is not an 23 Q Do you recall if that was the reason for the rejection?
24 ISA issue. A PMT is a State of Florida issue, and a Dade County 24 A I believe that was the reason. I don't recall whether
25 issue. Under state law I am a PMT, under state law. Under 25 it was put in writing that way or not, but I believe that was
23 (Pages 86 - 89)
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1 the reason. 1 experience with identification is working and spending time
2 MR. LEARY: Stated reason. 2 with other environmental people that have -- you know, when
3 BY MR. ANGELL: 3 I see tree species that I don't recognize, I ask, and I
4 Q Other than the work you did to become an arborist, do 4 learn that way. And I typically do a lot of that.
5 you have any other background or experience in the 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 identification of plants? 6 Q You mentioned Ed Swakon. We talked about James
7 A Repeat the question. 7 Robinson.
8 Q Let me rephrase that. 8 Are there any other environmental people that you've
9 To become an arborist, did you take any classes? Did 9 worked with on your property? Oh, and Steve Carney.
10 you study any materials formally? 10 A Swakon.
11 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 11 Q Swakon, Carney, Robinson. Any other people in addition
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 to those three?
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 MR. LEARY: Are you including Ettman in that list?
14 Q Other than that training, did you get any additional 14 MR. ANGELL: No.
15 training in the identification of plants? 15 THE WITNESS: Having more qualifications --
16 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 THE WITNESS: Other than what training? 17 Q I'm asking: Have you consulted with any others?
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 A Any others what, though?
19 Q Other than the training you did yourself in order to 19 Q Any other people that you would consider to be
20 become an arborist. 20 environmental experts?
21 A No, I went to classes before I got my certification. 21 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
22 Q Okay. And after your certification, though, you did 22 THE WITNESS: Well, my opinion of an environmental
23 the continuing education? 23 expert may be different than yours. And, having said that,
24 A I did the continuing education, yes. 24 I would say: Yes, there are other people. I mean, I
25 Q Anything in addition to the continuing educational 25 actually considered Cliff Kunde an environmental expert.
Page 91 Page 93
1 courses? 1 BY MR. ANGELL:
2 A Give me a hint on what you're looking for. 2 Q Okay.
3 Q No, I'm just asking: Is there any additional training? 3 A Oh! We forgot Rainer.
4 Some people go become plant biologists and go to 4 Q That's Rainer Schael?
5 college and study classes in biology. 5 A Right. Rainer Schael, Cliff Kunde, Henry Clifford.
6 A I go to conferences sometimes. 6 There's one who was in my head that just popped out. Yeah, you
7 Q What type? Are they arborist conferences? 7 said David Ettman. He's been on the property and I've consulted
8 A Yes, yes. 8 him. There have been others. I just, off the top of my head, I
9 Q What's the last one you went to? 9 just can't pull them out.
10 A I think the last one I went to was one that they held 10 Q Can you tell me, in your own words, why mangroves are
11 in Key West, back in -- oof! It was either '06 or '09. I don't 11 important?
12 recall. 12 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question.
13 Q Other than training, is all of your experience in 13 THE WITNESS: I never said they were important.
14 identification -- let me rephrase that. 14 BY MR. ANGELL:
15 Is all of your hands-on experience in the 15 Q Do you think mangroves are important?
16 identification of plants primarily from your experience on your 16 A Important for what, and for whom?
17 property? 17 Q Do you think mangroves are important for the
18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 18 environment?
19 THE WITNESS: Say that one more time. Sorry. 19 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 THE WITNESS: I think they're part of the
21 Q Sure. Your actual experience in identifying different 21 environment. I'm not an expert biologist to tell you, you
22 types of plant species, is that experience that you gained from 22 know, where they fit in the food chain, and whether
23 doing work on your property? 23 particular types of fish could do without them, and eat off
24 MR. LEARY: Objection to the form of the question. 24 of whatever else is growing, like buttonwoods or whatever,
25 THE WITNESS: No. I would say most of my 25 so I couldn't answer that question.
24 (Pages 90 - 93)
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1 BY MR. ANGELL: 1 A We pass local ordinances and other things, yes.
2 Q Do you know any of the ecological functions that 2 Q Are your ordinances considered laws in the Village?
3 mangroves perform? 3 A They are.
4 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 4 Q And it's the executive that's charged with enforcing
5 THE WITNESS: Do I know? I have read about some of 5 those laws, correct?
6 them that I could probably regurgitate to you and -- yeah. 6 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of all these
7 BY MR. ANGELL: 7 structure-of-government questions, a standing objection.
8 Q What do you recall? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, to the extent that they don't
9 A Well, they provide food to some of the hierarchy of 9 violate constitutional rights and get challenged and get
10 fish, and they clean certain impurities out of the water, as do 10 shut down, yes.
11 other plants, as plants do to air, in general, non-species 11 BY MR. ANGELL:
12 specific, and they provide erosion protection. 12 Q So, if the legislature was to pass a law that contained
13 And one of the biggest objections I have to the 13 specific language, it is the executive job to interpret that
14 statutes surrounding the mangroves is clearly the people that 14 language and to enforce that language.
15 wrote them had an intent to be pro-environmental when they wrote 15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form, object to the
16 them. And that is the legislative intent. The way they're 16 relevance.
17 enforced has an opposite effect on the environment. What the 17 THE WITNESS: To a degree, yes.
18 people that don't understand...and the environmental agencies 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 and the legislators have no way of knowing it, when they passed 19 Q Unless there's a challenge. Then, of course, the
20 the legislation...is certainly that white and black mangroves do 20 judiciary gets to --
21 not perform the stated beneficial environmental function of 21 A Well, not only that. There's policy issues by the
22 erosion protection, as they grow to be very tall trees. 22 legislators that are in office. They give policy direction to
23 They have quite the opposite effect. They smother out 23 the executive branch. We have -- and our city attorney in
24 growth of smaller ones, and the healthiest mangroves for erosion 24 Palmetto Bay, Dexter Lehtinen, gives great examples.
25 protection are ones that are allowed to grow up and be cut with 25 We have legislation, including in the United States
Page 95 Page 97
1 thicker trunks so that they can provide more stability, both 1 Constitution, that is extremely discriminatory, that has never
2 more stability for the soils for erosion protection, and allows 2 been removed and is still on the books, but is not enforced, and
3 more seedlings to grow and get a much denser, thicker mangrove 3 cannot possibly be enforced by anybody today because it's just
4 fringe. 4 wrong.
5 So, there's a major disconnect in the community, as 5 So, I don't agree entirely with your statement for that
6 there is on many other issues like sea level rise versus filling 6 reason.
7 of coastal wetlands, and all the rest of the stuff. 7 Q Well, that would be a decision of either the judiciary
8 And so, yeah, how much time do you want to spend 8 that it's unenforceable, correct, or --
9 talking about this? 9 A Or the executive branch --
10 Q Unfortunately, we'll spend a little bit more. 10 Q Or the decision of the executive not to enforce it?
11 A Okay. 11 MR. LEARY: Objection to form. Object to
12 Q But I want to go back to something you said earlier. 12 relevance.
13 The village is a strong manager type of government, 13 THE WITNESS: Or policy of the elected officials to
14 correct? 14 direct the executive branch not to enforce it, yes.
15 A Right. 15 BY MR. ANGELL:
16 Q So, as vice-mayor, unlike Miami-Dade County you have a 16 Q Well, can the councilmen direct the executive to do
17 strong mayor, and therefore the Mayor is the executive. And as 17 something, or not do something?
18 Vice-Mayor of the Village, you're part of the legislative, 18 MR. LEARY: Objection to form and relevance.
19 correct? 19 THE WITNESS: In a strong manager architecture,
20 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. 20 which is what we are in Palmetto Bay...and I'm assuming
21 THE WITNESS: I am. 21 that's what you're referring to...the answer is: No, that's
22 BY MR. ANGELL: 22 a violation of the charter because legislative, or direction
23 Q And as with the state legislation and the county 23 by council or elected officials has to be by resolution, or
24 legislation, the Board of County Commissioners, as part of the 24 a vote in aggregate. It cannot be by individuals.
25 Village legislation, part of what you do is pass laws, correct? 25 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 (Pages 94 - 97)
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1 Q What agency has the state delegated authority to 1 you'd classify that as part of the exemption or not. I
2 regulate mangrove trimming to in Miami-Dade County? 2 mean, there's a bunch of things that could give you the
3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 3 right to cut without a permit, a Class 1 permit, if that's
4 THE WITNESS: I would have to consult with my 4 what you're after.
5 attorney to be able to answer that question accurately, 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 because I really don't know the extent and -- in fact, I do 6 Q Yes. I'm asking: Are there any others that you recall
7 know there's a delegation agreement in place. I don't know 7 as you sit here, without having to look at the act?
8 the legality of it, whether it's -- the breadth and scope 8 A I think those would be the ones that apply to me, so
9 that it applies to. 9 those are the ones I've focused on.
10 BY MR. ANGELL: 10 Q Can you explain under what circumstances a permit must
11 Q Have you ever read that delegation of authority? 11 be obtained in order to trim or alter mangroves?
12 A No. 12 MR. LEARY: I object to the form of that question.
13 Q Do you know what agency issued that delegation of 13 THE WITNESS: Not really.
14 authority? 14 BY MR. ANGELL:
15 MR. LEARY: Object to relevance. Object to form. 15 Q Do you believe there are any circumstances that exist
16 THE WITNESS: Well, I assume it's DEP's authority 16 on your property with your mangroves that you could not trim
17 that's been delegated. In terms of who actually executed 17 without having a permit?
18 the delegation, and who had the authority to execute it, I 18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
19 couldn't tell you. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the ones that I don't touch,
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 that are over 24 feet, definitely.
21 Q Other than any communication with your lawyer that you 21
22 may have had, excluding that, did you have any independent 22 BY MR. ANGELL:
23 understanding of what the delegation of authority was? 23 Q I'm just trying to avoid pulling out pictures before
24 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object to 24 1:00, but I guess I'm not going to get there.
25 relevance. 25 MR. ANGELL: We're the Plaintiff.
Page 99 Page 101

1 THE WITNESS: I don't recall whether the initial 1 THE COURT REPORTER: I'll take care of that later.
2 thought process in my head about delegation of authority 2 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's
3 came out of a discussion I had with my attorney, or whether 3 Exhibit No. 1 for identification to the deposition.)
4 I came to the -- I read about it on my own. I really don't 4 BY MR. ANGELL:
5 recall. 5 Q I show you what's been marked for identification as
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 Exhibit 1.
7 Q Going back to mangroves. 7 A Okay.
8 A All right. 8 Q Are you familiar with that exhibit?
9 Q Can you explain under what circumstances mangroves may 9 A Yes.
10 be trimmed without a permit pursuant to the act? 10 Q Have you seen it before today?
11 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object to 11 A It looks familiar, yes.
12 relevance -- just to form. 12 Q I mean, have you actually seen the actual exhibit
13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, under the exemption. 13 before today?
14 BY MR. ANGELL: 14 A How would I know? I really -- I mean, I've seen stuff
15 Q Which exemption? 15 that looks just like it, so probably.
16 A Well, there's an exemption that says that you can trim 16 Q Okay.
17 either 100% of your coastal mangroves, if you have less than 150 17 A If you tell me it's from exhibit whatever from the
18 linear feet of shoreline with coastal mangroves in it; or 66% of 18 EQCB, I can probably tell you: Yes, I've seen it.
19 them if it's over 150 feet, under certain conditions. 19 Q That's the subject property, correct?
20 Q Are there any other exemptions to the state act that 20 A Absolutely.
21 you're aware of? 21 Q It's not the entire property, though, is it?
22 MR. LEARY: Would a copy of the act help? 22 A Right.
23 MR. ANGELL: Well, I'm asking if he recalls. 23 Q But there's areas on Exhibit 1 that --
24 THE WITNESS: There's a bunch. I believe there's a 24 A Exhibit 1?
25 historical maintenance, grandfathering. I don't know if 25 Q That's Exhibit 1 (indicating).
26 (Pages 98 - 101)
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1 A Okay. 1 A I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The western portion of B.
2 Q There are areas on Exhibit 1 labeled A, B, C, D and E. 2 Q On Exhibit 1, he's referring to an area with an end or
3 A Right. 3 start point just above the letter "B" on the diagram.
4 Q Can you tell me which areas you believe you are allowed 4 Is that accurate?
5 to trim mangroves in without a Class 1 permit? 5 A Yeah, yeah. The western half to two-thirds of the
6 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 6 section above B, correct.
7 THE WITNESS: Can I -- these are prescription 7 Q Okay. So that the eastern part of that spit that goes
8 glasses. I'm very farsighted. Is it okay if I put those 8 out into the water is the part that you believe that you cannot
9 on? 9 trim without a Class 1 permit, correct?
10 BY MR. ANGELL: 10 A Correct.
11 Q Of course. If you need them to read, yes. 11 Q We can't talk over each other. Sorry. We're getting
12 A Okay. Yeah, D we mutually agree on. C, I think, is 12 in the habit of speaking over each other. We can't do that.
13 part of your settlement agreement offer. You said no problem 13 A Okay.
14 trimming those. So I assume you're good with those. 14 Q And what other areas besides that part of B, D and C?
15 Q Well, actually C you know is part of an enforcement 15 A There's also a section of A, also the very westerly end
16 action, isn't it? 16 of A.
17 A You tell me. 17 Q Can you point to it for me?
18 Q Well, the settlement agreement is separate from the 18 A Yeah, something like from here over (indicating).
19 enforcement action. And, in fact, just so you're aware -- 19 Q So, indicating sort of below the A, and then heading
20 A I'm not an attorney. 20 west on the diagram.
21 Q I know, but so you know I'll help here. 21 A Correct. And then, I would also add that under the
22 Negotiations and things discussed during settlement 22 historical trimming stuff, some of the lateral growth to areas
23 agreement we actually can't use in other proceedings, just so 23 outside of that are also subject to trimming entitlement.
24 you know. 24 Q I'm not understanding what you're saying.
25 A Oh! So, I'm not supposed to talk about that here. 25 Are you saying outside of the area --
Page 103 Page 105
1 Q Because, you know, we can agree to all sorts of things 1 A Outside of the -- sorry.
2 in settlement agreements. 2 Q You said outside the area labeled as A?
3 A Okay. 3 A Outside of the areas that I just identified that I
4 Q But, to your understanding, is Area C a part of the 4 believe are subject to exemption, or other permissible trimmings
5 enforcement action currently against you? 5 without a Class 1 permit, there are other areas that also fall
6 A It is part of the enforcement action against me; 6 under that. Including, for example, the deep water channel on
7 however, in my opinion, it is clearly covered as exempt, not 7 either side of it. Infringement into that area is also covered
8 requiring permitting. 8 under historical trimming rights, because it's been maintained
9 Q Okay. So, you think D and C. 9 that way for extended periods of time and it interferes with
10 A Yeah. 10 navigable waterways.
11 Q What other areas do you believe -- 11 Q The parts of A that you identified, the parts of B that
12 A And I would say part of B, probably half to two-thirds 12 you identified, D and C, do you believe that's all subject to
13 of B also apply. 13 exempt trimming?
14 Q Can you show me which half to two-thirds of B you're 14 A Yes. Hold on.
15 talking about? 15 Q I'm sorry. I meant historical trimming.
16 A Well, the easterly half or two-thirds. 16 A Rephrase the question, please.
17 MR. LEARY: Is there a compass on this? 17 Q Yeah. My question is: You said that you believe that
18 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I mean, I'd have to go out 18 you could trim parts of A, parts of B, D and C without a Class 1
19 to the property, walk it off and then show you on here. But 19 permit.
20 somewhere in here is probably the edge of -- from here to 20 Is the exemption that you believe that that trimming is
21 here (indicating). 21 allowed, is it the historical exemption?
22 BY MR. ANGELL: 22 A It's a combination, but let me also clarify. I
23 Q So, you're indicating on -- 23 wouldn't necessarily say all of C, is what I was referring to,
24 A The eastern portion of B. 24 because the little thing to the left of the C kind of includes
25 Q -- on Exhibit -- 25 an area that I think is untouchable.
27 (Pages 102 - 105)

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Page 106 Page 108
1 Q Okay. So, you're referring to the very -- 1 BY MR. ANGELL:
2 A South. 2 Q Areas A, B, C and D, you said that all these areas,
3 Q Yeah, south portion of the C line touches on a part 3 under your belief, were historically maintained and were
4 that you believe is not trimmable without a Class 1 permit? 4 historically maintained for decades, is that right?
5 A Correct. 5 A I think so.
6 Q So, for the part of Area C that you believe can be 6 Q Who maintained them before your presence on the
7 trimmed without a Class 1 permit, is that under a historical 7 property?
8 trimming exemption? 8 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
9 A Yeah, it's been historically maintained at six feet for 9 THE WITNESS: I wasn't here. I wouldn't know.
10 many, many decades. 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 Q And Area D, is that also historical? 11 Q What is your understanding of how often maintenance was
12 A Yeah, I think so. 12 done, prior to your purchase of the property, of Area C?
13 Q Is there any other exemption that you believe applies 13 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
14 to Area D? 14 THE WITNESS: I was not here at the time, so I'd be
15 A Yeah, A and B, the portions that I referred to, those 15 talking out of school if I give an opinion on that.
16 were historically maintained, also. 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 Q I'm sorry. What I meant to ask you was: Area D you 17 Q Well, do you know? Has anybody told you how often Area
18 believe you can trim it without a Class 1 permit under the 18 C was trimmed to be maintained prior to you purchasing the
19 historical exemption. 19 property?
20 Are there any other exemptions to the act that you 20 A Well, I would ask you: What do you consider required
21 believe apply to Area D? 21 maintenance periods to preserve your rights under the
22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 22 maintenance? That's not clear from the statutes, is it?
23 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the question. Can 23 Q Unfortunately, I don't get to answer questions during
24 you ask it again? 24 the deposition. You do.
25 BY MR. ANGELL: 25 So, the question is: What is your understanding of how
Page 107 Page 109

1 Q Okay. The trimming that you do in Area D, is that done 1 often you have to trim an area in order to maintain a historical
2 solely under your belief that you have a historical exemption to 2 trimming exemption?
3 trim in that area? 3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
4 A I believe I'm able to trim there because I was told by 4 THE WITNESS: Well, that's an area that I believe
5 DERM it's fine to trim there. 5 the courts are going to rule on, because it's a gray area
6 Q And is the trimming you do in Area C done solely under 6 that, like many other holes in the statutes, are gray areas.
7 your belief that you have a historical exemption to trim in that 7 The Dade County agency has taken a far more aggressive
8 area? 8 enforcement position than the state on the same language.
9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 9 So, I think that's going to be up to the courts to decide.
10 THE WITNESS: Maybe not solely, but I believe that 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 is true. 11 Q You purchased the property in 2000, correct?
12 BY MR. ANGELL: 12 A Yes.
13 Q Is there anything else besides that belief? 13 Q So, if the entire year before there was no trimming
14 A Well, the act itself, I believe, gives me the right to 14 done in Area C, but it was done in 1998, do you believe that
15 do it under one or more sections, yeah. 15 that's a historically-maintained area under the exemption?
16 Q And the portion of A and B, is that also historical 16 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
17 trimming that you believe you can do under the historical 17 THE WITNESS: I think you have to take it in the
18 trimming exemption? 18 context of the entire historical period that you're
19 A I think it would also -- 19 referring to.
20 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 20 If over a period of 40 or 50 years it has been
21 THE WITNESS: I mean, I would have to look at the 21 maintained, on average, at a six-foot level for most of that
22 details, but I also believe that all of the areas we're 22 time period, then certainly.
23 talking about combined would also fall under the regular 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
24 exemption for being basically 66% or less of my entire 24 Q In 1992 Hurricane Andrew hit. The Walbergs moved off
25 coastal mangrove fringe. 25 the property. They didn't come back to do any maintenance on
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1 the house. 1 the property.
2 Do you know if they came back to do any maintenance on 2 BY MR. ANGELL:
3 the mangroves since 1992? 3 Q That's based upon what the real estate agent told you,
4 A I was led to believe that there was maintenance there. 4 and what Mr. Kunde told you?
5 Q Who led you to believe there was maintenance done of 5 A That's based on my own observations.
6 the mangroves on the property? 6 Q Observations of what? You hadn't been on the property
7 A The real estate agent. 7 prior to 2000.
8 Q Other than the real estate agent, has anybody else told 8 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
9 you that maintenance was done of the mangroves on the property? 9 THE WITNESS: The property, you could see, was used
10 A I never spoke to the Walbergs. Cliff Kunde may have 10 as a launching point for an ultralight airplane. And you
11 mentioned it. I know Cliff Kunde had mentioned to me that he 11 could tell that the people that were doing it were
12 personally had done maintenance historically over there, 12 consistently trimming areas of the mangroves.
13 including after Andrew and other hurricanes, filling a section 13 BY MR. ANGELL:
14 that washed out soil from the western portion of Section B of 14 Q Which areas of the mangroves do you believe --
15 the island, because -- 15 A I wasn't here. When it was done I don't know, but you
16 Q So, Cliff Kunde told you he maintained part of the 16 could certainly -- I could see the portion that I approached
17 section of B after Hurricane Andrew? 17 when I drove onto the property. So, we know it was done. I'd
18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 18 have no way of knowing the extent.
19 THE WITNESS: The soil erosion -- because from the 19 Q Referring to Exhibit 1, are you stating that within
20 time he was a child, they had always used that, and driven 20 Exhibit 1 there is an area that you believe ultralight aircraft
21 their golf cart up and down the island, and that he had 21 were being launched from --
22 always, yes, participated in the maintenance, including 22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
23 after Hurricane Andrew. 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 Q -- prior to your ownership of the property?
25 Q Other than the real estate agent, did anybody tell you 25 A Yes.
Page 111 Page 113

1 that after 1992 Section C was maintained? 1 Q What is that area?
2 A I never asked. 2 A The Walbergs, it's my understanding, had given
3 Q Did anybody tell you if Section D was maintained after 3 permission for people to use the property for various purposes,
4 Hurricane Andrew? 4 including the use of it to launch ultralight airplanes,
5 A I never asked. 5 helicopters and stuff, all kinds of things.
6 Q Did anybody tell you if any other portion of Section B, 6 Q Which areas of the property?
7 other than what was identified by Mr. Kunde, was maintained 7 A I don't know.
8 after Hurricane Andrew? 8 Q Other than what people have told you, have you seen
9 A I never asked. 9 anything to show that light aircraft was, in fact, launched from
10 Q If you didn't begin maintenance to purchase the 10 this property?
11 property, obviously, in around 2001 or so, did you begin 11 A Yeah, I saw the airplanes, the airplane. There was at
12 maintenance? 12 least one that I saw.
13 A This is why I hired Bob Robinson. 13 Q When did you see the airplane?
14 Q I know that you don't recall the exact year of that. 14 A Very regularly, from before I bought the property, to
15 You said maybe 2002/2003. Let's assume 2001 just for the 15 -- I continued to allow the people that had the agreement with
16 purpose of the question. 16 the Walbergs to use the property, to continue. And they were,
17 A All right. 17 you know, kind enough to trim the mangroves as well.
18 Q If you hired him in 2001, yet if no one had maintained 18 Q Which section of the mangroves were they trimming?
19 those mangroves since 1992 when the Walbergs moved off the 19 A I don't know. I wasn't here. The parts that I could
20 property, do you believe you're still allowed to historically 20 see for sure that were done, were the parts that affected the
21 maintain the mangroves? 21 ultralights.
22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 22 Q Do you recall seeing any trimming in Area C?
23 THE WITNESS: I know that's a factually-incorrect 23 A I don't even recall being in Area C until after I
24 piece of information. I know, 100% for certain, that they 24 bought the property.
25 were trimmed in between Hurricane Andrew and when I bought 25 Q On how many occasions did you see an ultralight plane
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1 launched from this property? 1 A No. It took off from the land as well. Well, no, we'd
2 A Probably 30 or 40. 2 push it into the water, and then -- because it had pontoons, and
3 Q You purchased the property in 2000. So, during what 3 then you'd get the thing going, and when it gets enough speed it
4 years did you see the ultralights being launched? 4 goes up.
5 A From when I first got down here to look at the 5 Q So, the ultralight aircraft didn't use your property
6 property...probably end of '99, beginning of 2000...until -- 6 like a runway --
7 well, actually until maybe 2008, 2009. 7 A Right.
8 Q So, there were ultralights being launched on the 8 Q -- where it would run down --
9 property from '99 until 2008, roughly? 9 A Correct. Right, right, right.
10 A I would say so, yeah. 10 Q Sorry. We've got to go one at a time. You can't see
11 Q Who was launching the ultralights? 11 her. I get the looks.
12 A Well, there was a fire captain named Robert Garcia who 12 So, the ultralight would start -- so it's not like it
13 was killed in a car accident...it was on TV for days...he was 13 starts by like where your gate is, and it would run down your
14 the owner of the ultralight when he died. 14 property like a runway at an airport. It's that you guys would
15 Q Was it just one plane that was launched from there? 15 push it into the water, and from there it would take off?
16 A Yes, as far as I know. I mean, there might have been 16 A Correct. The wheels were only on the trailer, not on
17 others, but that was the one that was regularly launched there 17 the airplane. The airplane had pontoons on it, so it had to be
18 during that period. 18 launched from the water. So, we would take it from wherever it
19 Q Where was the plane kept when it wasn't being launched? 19 was, and push it out into the water. And probably, depending on
20 A It would be taken apart and put on its trailer and 20 tide, it might have been launched out of here, or it might have
21 driven away. 21 been -- I don't know. Anywhere and everywhere potentially.
22 And after the house was constructed, the garage 22 Q Did it always land in the water on its return?
23 actually was designed to fit the ultralight, so it was kept 23 A Yeah, I don't recall any accidents, so yes.
24 there for a period of time as well. 24 Q And when he landed on the water, which way would it be
25 Q Do you know how long prior to '99 they were launching 25 brought back onto the property?
Page 115 Page 117

1 ultralights from the property? 1 A It depends. So, if it was being taken out of service
2 A Since at least before the first time -- I mean, they 2 and, you know, either stored in the garage, or taken and torn
3 told me it was since the Walbergs -- it was an agreement with 3 down, cleaned and put on the trailer, it would come in through
4 the Walbergs well before I had met the real estate agent. So, 4 this way. If it was docked, it would be here. It would be
5 it had been going on for a long time. 5 wherever (indicating).
6 Q You're saying "they told you." Who's "they"? 6 Q Indicating it would come in through Area D; and if it
7 A Robert Garcia, who was the owner of the airplane. 7 was docked it would come in through the deep water?
8 Q Did he launch for himself to fly, or for other people? 8 A The channel.
9 A Yeah, it was a two-seater, so he would take other 9 Q The channel?
10 people out on occasion. He was also teaching me how to fly it. 10 A Or C has a giant concrete docking station, if you will.
11 Q Did you ever actually go up in it? 11 Q Do you recall if, from the time you were first on the
12 A Of course. 12 property until you hired Mr. Robinson to do trimming, if Area C
13 Q On how many occasions did you go up in it? 13 had been trimmed?
14 A Probably a dozen. 14 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
15 Q Did it always launch from the same area of your 15 THE WITNESS: As I said before, I don't know
16 property? 16 because I wasn't there.
17 A That's a good question. Technically no, but 17 BY MR. ANGELL:
18 practically yes. 18 Q Well, you'd been on the property. My question is: The
19 Q Okay. I don't understand. 19 times that you were on the property, before engaging Mr.
20 A So, technically I own submerged land here. We did 20 Robinson's services to do trimming, do you actually recall
21 water takeoffs, because it had pontoons, from above the 21 seeing Area C having been trimmed?
22 submerged land. 22 A Like what time period are you asking?
23 Q Did it ever take off from the land itself -- 23 Q From the time period between 1999 and 2001 we'll say.
24 A Yeah. 24 A Did I observe anything? No.
25 Q -- or was it always taking off from the water? 25 Q Did you remember, between 1999 and 2001, seeing any
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1 portion of the property that appeared to have been trimmed 1 but somebody corrected me and said that wasn't the case; it was
2 during -- let me rephrase that. 2 just one day.
3 Do you recall seeing, between 1999 and 2001, any 3 Q Do you recall if she was with anybody else while on
4 portion of the property's mangroves being trimmed on the few 4 your property?
5 occasions that you were on the property in that time period? 5 A Yes, she was with some of her staff, I think.
6 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 6 Q Do you recall the name of any of that staff?
7 THE WITNESS: You mean did I see anybody cutting? 7 A I have no idea.
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 Q Do you know if it was more than one person?
9 Q No. Did you see evidence? 9 A I don't recall. I know there's some pictures of that,
10 A Oh, evidence? 10 so we could figure it out.
11 Q Yes. 11 Q When you were there, and Ms. Clingerman was there back
12 A Yeah. 12 in 2001, what was her purpose of being on your property?
13 Q Where? 13 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
14 A I actually saw some being done in the area there 14 THE WITNESS: Well, only she would know the real
15 (indicating). 15 purpose.
16 Q Indicating D? 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 A Yeah, D I know for sure. I observed it while it was 17 Q What was your understanding of her purpose for being on
18 happening. In other areas, I don't know. 18 the property?
19 Q When you observed the trimming in Area D happening, who 19 A The stated purpose, from our point of view, was I was
20 was doing it? 20 informed by Mr. Robinson that this was the process in order to
21 A Obviously the owner of the airplane. 21 get the needed trimming done. And she was coming there to -- he
22 MR. ANGELL: And, at this point, I think we'll 22 had submitted an application to DERM, and they had to come and
23 break for lunch, because it's 1:00. 23 inspect in order to grant the application.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 At that time, again, as I had mentioned before I had
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record. The time 25 never heard of a wetland delineation before. Also, at that
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1 is 1:00 p.m. 1 time, I didn't know what a Class 1 permit was. So, I was
2 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was taken from 1:00 2 oblivious to that, as well. I thought it was just some
3 p.m. until 1:55 p.m.) 3 paperwork that just needed to be filled out.
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on record, the time 4 So, after the fact, I learned that it was to get a
5 is 1:55 p.m. 5 permit issued to trim the mangroves in a certain manner.
6 MR. ANGELL: Just for the record, all the same 6 Q And that's a permit that was applied for by Mr.
7 parties are in the room. 7 Robinson on your behalf?
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 A Correct, yeah.
9 Q Mr. Dubois, when we left off we were talking about the 9 Q So, Mr. Robinson had already been on the property prior
10 ultralight aircraft that used to fly from your property, between 10 to Ms. Clingerman's first time on the property in 2001?
11 the years 1999 and 2008. 11 A Of course.
12 During that time period, at some point DERM personnel 12 Q And are you aware of whether or not Mr. Robinson took
13 were on your property in the early 2000's, is that correct? 13 measurements of the mangrove height when he was on your
14 A Yes. 14 property?
15 Q In fact, JoAnne Clingerman had been on your property in 15 A Well, I believe he provided me with a sketch, or
16 2001, is that right? 16 provided DERM with a sketch that I saw, at some point subsequent
17 A Yes, she was on my property. 17 to that.
18 Q Were you present when Ms. Clingerman was on your 18 Q Do you recall if that sketch had heights of mangroves
19 property? 19 on it?
20 A I believe I was present for one day when she was on the 20 A Yeah, I do recall that, because that was actually
21 property. 21 reviewed in the EQCB hearing that we actually had a couple of
22 Q Do you know if she was on your property for more than 22 years ago.
23 one day in 2001? 23 Q At the time that Mr. Robinson took measurements of Area
24 A I thought she was there for two days, but somebody 24 C, do you recall what heights he found in Area C?
25 corrected me and said two days in a row. That's what I thought, 25 A The only --
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1 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 1 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
2 THE WITNESS: The only thing I specifically recall, 2 THE WITNESS: I would tell you that, at that time,
3 height wise -- can I mark on this? 3 Mr. Robinson had no way of knowing the history of
4 BY MR. ANGELL: 4 maintenance on that, because I did not bring it to his
5 Q If you'd like. I have 1000 copies. 5 attention, nor did I know it, at that particular time.
6 A Okay -- was that there was one mangrove marked, which 6 BY MR. ANGELL:
7 was right about in here (indicating). Maybe I need a pen. 7 Q So, I assume that would be the same answer as far as
8 Q Here. (Counsel hands pen to witness.) 8 what Ms. Clingerman's measurements would be.
9 A Right about in here, (indicating), that was over 24. 9 Would you expect, if there was historic maintenance
10 It was listed at 26 feet, and it was a red mangrove. And it is 10 being done in Area C, that Ms. Clingerman's measurements of Area
11 actually the mangrove that you can see clearly in the aerials of 11 C would be six feet in height?
12 2005, in October, from the October aerial before you had Wilma, 12 MR. LEARY: Object to the form and object to the
13 that it was full-grown. And you could see right after Wilma 13 relevance.
14 that it, as well as many others immediately adjacent to it -- 14 THE WITNESS: I'm completely confused on what you
15 and, as I mentioned before, the tall trees are the ones that 15 just said.
16 usually get hit by winds, and that's why they shouldn't be 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 allowed to grow that tall, for erosion protection. That one, 17 Q If the area labeled C on Exhibit 1 was historically
18 and others next to it, were clearly knocked down by the winds, 18 maintained at a height of six feet, would you expect Ms.
19 and you could see that in the next month's aerial photographs. 19 Clingerman's measurements from 2001 to be at, or near, the six
20 So, yeah, that's the only height marking I recall from 20 feet height mark for Area C?
21 that sketch, because that was brought into question at the EQCB 21 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
22 hearing about a violation for a mangrove that was trimmed in 22 THE WITNESS: Well, if she measured it over the
23 excess of 24 feet. 23 last 40 to 50 years and took averages, yeah, they would
24 Q Just for the record, he put a circle on what is Exhibit 24 probably be about six feet.
25 1 in the mangrove hedge area that's labeled as A. 25 BY MR. ANGELL:
Page 123 Page 125

1 Do you recall if any area on your property that was 1 Q So, you think the overall average height was six feet?
2 measured by Mr. Robinson had a measurement of six feet? 2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
3 A If you would show me the sketch, I could confirm or 3 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not saying the average would
4 deny. 4 be six feet, because if they were trimmed to six feet and
5 Q You can't say without -- 5 they grow above that, obviously the average wouldn't be six
6 A Out of memory, I can't. 6 feet; it would be higher. But I would say that if you took
7 Q Did you ever see Ms. Clingerman's measurements of the 7 samples maybe over the last 40 or 50 years, more times than
8 mangroves on the property in 2001? 8 not it would have shown at the six to eight feet, or
9 A I have seen so much paperwork. If you tell me there 9 whatever that level was, that it's been maintained at.
10 was such a piece of paper, I'm sure I've seen it at some point. 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 I just don't recall it unless you show it to me. 11 Q Do you know how long it takes a mangrove to grow from 6
12 Q You testified earlier that you recall, was it Area D 12 feet to 17 feet?
13 being at six feet, maintained at six feet? 13 MR. LEARY: Objection to form.
14 A No. Actually -- 14 THE WITNESS: I don't think anybody can accurately
15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 15 answer that question.
16 THE WITNESS: No. I said C was historically 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 maintained at six feet according to the Kundes. 17 Q Do you know what the average growth would be?
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
19 Q I apologize. So, Area C was maintained at six feet? 19 THE WITNESS: I don't think anybody can accurately
20 A According to the Kundes, yes, by both affidavit and 20 answer that question without more input variables.
21 photographs that were submitted to DERM historically showing 21 BY MR. ANGELL:
22 exactly that. 22 Q Okay. Do you know how long it takes a mangrove on your
23 Q If Area C was, in fact, historically maintained at six 23 property to grow from 6 feet to 17 feet?
24 feet, would you expect Mr. Robinson's measurements of that area 24 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
25 to reflect heights of six feet? 25 THE WITNESS: Same answer. I mean, you could ask
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1 me -- you can point to a specific tree on my property, and I 1 Did anybody else ever advise you to get a Class 1
2 can give you my opinion. But no, there is no such thing as 2 permit for trimming on your property?
3 an average, because every tree has different conditions, 3 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance.
4 different health. They're different species and they all 4 THE WITNESS: Only DERM.
5 grow differently. 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 Q Did Mr. Kunde ever advise you to get a Class 1 permit?
7 Q Mr. Kunde testified that there were trees on their 7 A No.
8 property that were maintained at a height of approximately four 8 Q And by Mr. Kunde I'm referring to Clifford Kunde.
9 feet historically. 9 A No, quite the opposite. He said I should -- in fact,
10 Are you aware of that? 10 he was one of the reasons -- he said: Hey, John, why don't you
11 A Yes, I was told that. 11 and I go take this -- you know, get certified as ISA arborists,
12 Q And he would say that they would have to trim the 12 and go take it, because then we'll be able to trim our own
13 mangroves on his property -- let me rephrase that. 13 mangroves.
14 He testified that his parents would direct him to trim 14 Q Was that your motivation to become an arborist, was to
15 the mangroves on his property when the view of the horizon would 15 be able to trim your own mangroves?
16 be gone. 16 MR. LEARY: Objection to relevance.
17 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. That's not an 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, and to learn about trees, more
18 accurate statement. 18 than I had already, and to study them at a greater extent I
19 BY MR. ANGELL: 19 had previously.
20 Q And he testified that he would trim approximately four 20 BY MR. ANGELL:
21 times a year. 21 Q Just to be clear, have you ever had obtained a permit
22 MR. LEARY: Object to form. That's also not an 22 to do any trimming on your property of the mangroves?
23 accurate statement. 23 A From who?
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 Q From anyone, have you ever obtained a permit to do
25 Q Does that at all help you in determining, on the 25 trimming of mangroves on your property?
Page 127 Page 129
1 average, growth of the trees on your property? 1 A I never believed I had a need to do so.
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 2 Q Have you ever participated in obtaining a permit for
3 THE WITNESS: Well, the two are not correlated. 3 the trimming of mangroves on anybody else's property?
4 BY MR. ANGELL: 4 A Depends on what you call participate. I mean, I
5 Q So, it doesn't assist you? 5 certainly gave some advice on what I thought would be or
6 A Well, you can trim them 20 times a year. It depends on 6 wouldn't be subject to it, yeah.
7 how picky you are. If you don't like to see little sprouts come 7 Q To whom?
8 up that make it look uneven, you can trim everyday and get rid 8 A To be honest, I don't remember the names of the people.
9 of the sprouts, which I'd like to do, in the ideal world, if I 9 Q Was it more than one property owner?
10 had the time. 10 A Yeah, it's been certainly more than one property owner.
11 Q Can you describe the difference between trimming 11 One of them I can tell you, that I remember. His name
12 mangroves and altering mangroves as defined by the Mangrove 12 is -- it was the Philly steak that clogged my memory for the
13 Trimming and Preservation Act? 13 moment.
14 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 14 Art Finkle is his name. He lives in Gables Estates.
15 THE WITNESS: I can give you the fundamental 15 He apparently -- I looked in his backyard, because I played
16 differences. 16 tennis with him over there. He has something like three, four
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 or five small mangrove trees that he's been trying to get
18 Q Sure. 18 trimmed for years with a PMT. And he's been told that DERM has
19 A Alteration would mean that you cut a tree to the point 19 denied the PMT right to trim them. And I told him that that was
20 where you're doing damage to its health, including, but not 20 totally improper, and the typical predatory nature of DERM, to
21 limited to complete defoliation of a tree. In the case of 21 keep people from exercising their rights under the statutes.
22 certain species, a certain percentage would apply. It's 22 Q So, did you actually tell him it was okay to trim?
23 different between the species, in terms of their health. 23 A No, what I told him was he should have his PMT call
24 Q I know that you said Mr. Robinson applied for a Class 1 24 Jeff, who would help him legally exercise his rights under the
25 permit for trimming on your property. 25 law to do what he's entitled to. Because DERM's whole approach
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1 is to delay to the point where the trees grow above 24 feet so 1 THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell you what year it is,
2 that they can't be touched, and improperly deny the people their 2 other than to say that since I wrote on this document, that
3 rights to cut when they do have the right to cut. 3 it was either 2001 or 2002. That would probably be
4 Q I'm going to show you what I'll mark as Exhibit 2. 4 accurate. I have no reason to disbelieve it. I mean,
5 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's 5 clearly I didn't know -- it was within a couple year window
6 Exhibit No. 2 for identification to the deposition.) 6 there, based on what I wrote.
8 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 2. 8 Q That exhibit was attached to an affidavit by Clifford
9 MR. LEARY: Is that the one from Cliff? 9 Kunde.
10 MR. ANGELL: Yeah. 10 Have you ever seen any affidavits done by Mr. Kunde?
11 MR. LEARY: That would be 01434? 11 A I believe I have seen an affidavit by Cliff Kunde, but
12 MR. ANGELL: Uh-huh (affirmative expression). 12 I couldn't even tell you from recollection what it said in it,
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 other than it probably said what he told me about the fact that
14 Q Have you ever -- sorry. I'll wait for your glasses. 14 he used to take the golf cart out to the Walberg property and
15 A Okay. 15 maintained the erosion issue with the soils on the island, and
16 Q Have you ever seen Exhibit 2 before? 16 some trimming and stuff.
17 A I don't know. It looks familiar. I mean, I've seen 17 Q Well, the affidavit from 2002 actually references that
18 pictures like this, and I've seen some lines like this, and 18 photograph in it, and it references specific areas as apparently
19 areas demarked like this, but I can't tell you if this is 19 you designated them on that photograph in your handwriting.
20 exactly the same thing. Probably, because it's dated as a 20 A Right. That's my writing, yeah.
21 historical document. So, I probably have seen it. 21 Q Did you participate in drafting that affidavit?
22 Actually, this looks like my handwriting. It is. So I 22 A If you show it to me -- I didn't draft -- I couldn't
23 wrote this. 23 tell you without seeing it, if it's my verbiage.
24 Q You wrote which part of it? 24 Q Okay. Do mangroves naturally recruit into uplands?
25 A All the ink on this page is mine. 25 A I don't know.
Page 131 Page 133
1 Q Okay. 1 Q Under natural conditions are mangroves going to be the
2 A "Area key," I wrote that. That's my handwriting. 2 dominant vegetation and a naturally occurring upland?
3 "Current photo year 2001 or 2002," that's my writing. "Area A, 3 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
4 B, C, D" looks like my writing, which I assume means that I also 4 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't think so.
5 drew the lines and hash marks. 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 Q As we sit here today, which of those designated areas 6 Q Are buttonwoods a positive indicator for wetlands?
7 do you currently trim? 7 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
8 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 8 THE WITNESS: There are many species of
9 THE WITNESS: I mean, that more accurately depicts 9 buttonwoods. Which one are you referring to?
10 them. These don't match up, these A, B, C and D's don't 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 match up with those, right? 11 Q Do you know a species of buttonwoods that's not a
12 BY MR. ANGELL: 12 positive indicator of a wetland?
13 Q You may refer to Exhibit 1. 13 A I would assume the silver buttonwood is not a case of a
14 A So, D seems to match up. So, D is a yes. 14 wetland.
15 Area B on Exhibit 2 shows the entire island. Area B on 15 Q How about green buttonwoods, are they an indicator of
16 Exhibit 1 shows the western half of the island, which I said 16 wetlands?
17 that the western half of Area B, or two-thirds of it, is what's 17 A No, not necessarily. They're more of an upland tree
18 maintained. 18 species, like the white and black mangroves can be.
19 Area A, more or less, matches up between the two 19 Q Are buttonwoods a positive indicator for wetland
20 diagrams. So, the section that I mentioned in Area A is what is 20 hydrology?
21 currently maintained. And same answer as to C. 21 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
22 Q Okay. Exhibit 2, is it an accurate depiction of how 22 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
23 the mangroves appeared in 2001/2002? 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
24 A I couldn't tell you. 24 Q Can upland plants grow in wetlands?
25 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 25 A It depends on which ones you're referring to. I don't
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1 know. I mean, there's not a correct answer that applies to all 1 A Rainer, John Shubin, just about everybody that I've
2 upland plants, no. 2 ever asked that works with these people.
3 Q Some plants can and some plants can't? 3 Q When you say "works with these people" you mean
4 A I assume so. 4 external people, not agents of DERM --
5 Q Do you have -- go ahead. 5 A Correct.
6 A The black and white mangroves are examples of those, 6 Q -- or employees of DERM?
7 that grow in either wetlands or upland areas. 7 A Correct.
8 Q Do black and white mangroves naturally recruit into 8 Q You mentioned earlier that you believed DERM to be a
9 uplands? 9 predatory agency.
10 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 10 A They are.
11 THE WITNESS: Probably not, unless there is a means 11 Q What is it that you base that opinion on?
12 because they are usually carried by water. 12 A (No comment).
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 Q She can't take down a motion of the head.
14 Q Can black and white mangroves naturally recruit into an 14 So, you said that DERM is a predatory agency. On what
15 area with saturated soils? 15 do you base your opinion?
16 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 16 A I base my opinion on the fact that, as I have mentioned
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 17 to the director, Lee Hefty at the time, that they could care
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 less about the environment, and they only care about generating
19 Q Have you ever read the amended order granting 19 revenue because they are an enterprise fund effectively, or at
20 preliminary injunctive relief in the case that we're here for 20 least they were up until they were merged into RER, where all of
21 today? 21 their expenses had to be covered by the revenues from fines and
22 A Give me some clues as to what that said. 22 fees, and whatnot.
23 Q It was the one that said that you are to retain an 23 A perfect example was the tens, if not hundreds of
24 appropriate, competent professional consultant to determine the 24 thousands of dollars that were wasted, day-in and day-out,
25 degree and extent... 25 having boats and airplanes surveil my property and the Burch
Page 135 Page 137

1 A Yes, yes, yes, yes. That one, yes, I recall that. 1 property for years. And then, when they actually entered into
2 Q And was Mr. Schael the consultant that you hired? 2 the stipulation agreement with the Burches, where the
3 A Yes, he was. 3 environmentally sensitive work was done, nobody from DERM even
4 Q Did you interview any other consultants to do that 4 cared to go out there during the two months that their cousin or
5 work, other than Mr. Schael? 5 relative, or friend was sitting on a bulldozer lowering the
6 A Yes, he was not my first choice. 6 elevation into wetlands. And then, after it was done, they came
7 Q Who else did you interview? 7 in and said: Oh, you made it too low. So, there's absolutely
8 A David Ettman. 8 no concern for the environment, only concern for enforcement
9 Q That's the same David Ettman we spoke about earlier? 9 actions and fees and fines.
10 A Yes. 10 Other examples that I've heard where they were
11 Q Anybody else? 11 surveilling a piece of property where somebody came in with a
12 A I was pretty much told by everyone that nobody wanted 12 dump truck full of contaminated or bad fill, or some sort of
13 to do this because if they did it, knowing that I was on the top 13 fill, dumped it into an area that was "environmentally
14 of the most wanted list at DERM, that they'd have a hard time 14 sensitive," waited until there was 1000 or 2000 truckloads
15 getting cooperation, and that it would hurt their business. 15 dumped there over a nine-month period before they took
16 Q Well, we know that DERM doesn't actually have a 16 enforcement action to hit them with fees and fines, instead of
17 most-wanted list, or any such document. If they did, I'm sure 17 stopping the environment from being damaged. It's pretty
18 your lawyer would have already gotten with a public records 18 typical of what you'd call a predatory agency. And story after
19 request. 19 story I've heard similar to that.
20 So, what you mean is you had an impression that DERM 20 Q So, if I understand correctly, your position that DERM
21 doesn't like you? Is that your opinion? 21 is a predatory agency is based upon your personal opinion --
22 A That's what I've been told by many of the people that 22 A Correct.
23 work with DERM, yes. 23 Q -- of observations of the enforcement action against
24 Q Who specifically that works with DERM has told you that 24 your neighbor, April Burch, and about stories that you've heard
25 DERM has animosity towards you? 25 from other people. And I don't know if you would be able to
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1 tell me the names, or not....we'll ask in a moment...the names 1 A It started there. He confronted Linda during a
2 of people who related to you hearsay -- 2 commission meeting, was yelling at her, and that was the end of
3 MR. LEARY: Is this a question? 3 him, yes. He made a spectacle of himself by going after Linda
4 MR. ANGELL: Sorry. I'm making sure I have a 4 later, in a commission meeting as a result of that town hall
5 summary of what it is, and see if there's anything that I'm 5 activity. It was all interrelated.
6 missing. And you can lodge an objection, so I'll start that 6 Q You keep referring to former Commissioner Bell as
7 question over. You can make a formal objection if you have 7 Linda.
8 to. 8 You're friends with Linda Bell, correct?
10 Q So, my question is -- 10 Q And the enforcement action against you began before the
11 A I can answer. 11 town hall meeting had been called by Linda Bell, correct?
12 Q I mean, is that the basis? You're saying hundreds of 12 A Yes.
13 thousands of dollars were spent to surveil your property and the 13 Q When you refer to the Fernandez family --
14 Burch property, where is the evidence of $100,000 that was spent 14 A Right.
15 for the purpose of surveilling you and Ms. Burch? 15 Q -- was that Jose Fernandez?
16 MR. LEARY: Objection to form. 16 A Jose and Ida Fernandez, yes.
17 THE WITNESS: Let me also add the fact that I 17 Q Is that the same Jose Fernandez who threatened to shoot
18 attended a town hall meeting called by Linda Bell after she 18 the commissioners?
19 was elected with the then-head of DERM, which was Espinosa, 19 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
20 the head guy, I think from South Florida Water Management 20 THE WITNESS: No, he did threaten to shoot the
21 District. County Attorney Duvall was there, who was the guy 21 commissioners.
22 that did DERM enforcement at the time. 22 BY MR. ANGELL:
23 And I went there just to listen. And after hearing 23 Q Is this the same Jose Fernando who was arrested --
24 the stories, such as the ones of the Fernandez family that 24 MR. LEARY: Object to form.
25 had helicopters sitting on top of their home, shaking their 25 BY MR. ANGELL:
Page 139 Page 141
1 home, a story that only people that were, you know, 1 Q -- for statements made to the Board of County
2 government victims in Cuba would be able to believe. 2 Commissioners?
3 I was probably one of the few people in the room 3 MR. LEARY: Object to form. Object to relevance.
4 that believed it, because they did exactly the same thing at 4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 my house with helicopters sitting less than 100 feet over my 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 house hovering, just to shake the house to make sure that I 6 Q And that's the same Jose Fernandez who was prosecuted
7 knew that they were there. And that's the type of behavior 7 by the State Attorney's Office and represented by Mr. Leary,
8 that is consistent with a predatory agency who goes far 8 correct?
9 beyond what their mission is, with their warped sense of 9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object to
10 ends justifying the means. And that's the whole reason that 10 relevance.
11 I do what I'm doing, and will continue to do with Mr. Leary, 11 THE WITNESS: Prosecuted for what? I thought there
12 in terms of representing people that are treated improperly 12 was a plea agreement.
13 by Dade County government. 13 BY MR. ANGELL:
14 BY MR. ANGELL: 14 Q Prosecuted by the State Attorney's Office. Well, he
15 Q Well, sir, first, are you aware that DERM doesn't even 15 was prosecuted.
16 have a helicopter? 16 A Oh!
17 A Well, one of the things, and part of the reason that 17 Q He was charged in the information with multiple felony
18 Mr. Duvall no longer works for the county, based on my 18 counts. It was a protracted litigation and ultimately there was
19 understanding, is during that meeting Linda asked the South 19 a plea bargain entered, but nonetheless he was prosecuted by the
20 Florida Water Management District guy if they had let DERM use 20 State Attorney's Office for his conduct --
21 helicopters. He said no, at the time. And she found out later 21 MR. LEARY: Is there a question here?
22 that it was not true, and that DERM had been using South Florida 22 BY MR. ANGELL:
23 Water Management District helicopters for those missions. 23 Q -- at the Board of Commissioners, correct?
24 Q You're saying that's why Randy Duvall doesn't work for 24 A I feel I'm being prosecuted by the County Attorney's
25 the county anymore? 25 Office, as well, so I consider him similar, for the type of
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1 things that shouldn't have happened. 1 THE WITNESS: I personally invited him to the Burch
2 Q He was prosecuted, correct? 2 property at one time, in the last several years. I'm not
3 A It depends what you call prosecution. 3 sure when and what you're talking about.
4 MR. LEARY: Objection to the relevance and 4 BY MR. ANGELL:
5 objection to form. This is absolutely, completely 5 Q Well, he's in photographs on the Burch property that
6 irrelevant. 6 your lawyer has provided to DERM.
7 BY MR. ANGELL: 7 Are you aware of that?
8 Q I'm sorry. Are you telling me you don't understand 8 A I would not know about that. I have no knowledge of
9 what the word "prosecuted" means in the context of the State 9 that, other than the only time that he was there and, as far as
10 Attorney's Office charging a criminal action against somebody? 10 I know, he wasn't photographed when I was there him on the Burch
11 MR. LEARY: Object to relevance. Object to form. 11 property.
12 THE WITNESS: Even though, Jeff Leary is my 12 Q You said that Mr. Fernandez was invited by you onto
13 attorney and was Jose Fernandez's attorney, I do not follow 13 the Burch property?
14 the details of Jeff's work, other than as it relates, and as 14 A Yes.
15 he informs me about my case. 15 Q For what was he invited by you onto the Burch property
16 So, I have no way of knowing what the details are 16 for?
17 of what you did to Jose Fernandez. I do know what he was 17 A Because he was a former caretaker of horses, and there
18 arrested for, but I don't know what was done to him by your 18 was an animal services complaint against the Burches about
19 former office, State Attorneys, or Jeff's involvement other 19 treatment of horses. Our police department was involved. So, I
20 than representing him with defense or with what the plea 20 invited him over, as the only expert I knew, to give an opinion
21 agreement was, or any of the rest of the stuff. So, I can't 21 as to the condition of the horses.
22 comment on the details of that stuff or what, in fact, 22 Q Did he ever meet April Burch?
23 happened or didn't happen. 23 A He was there with her when I was there.
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 Q So, they were present on the property together?
25 Q You just said what "we did" to Mr. Fernandez. 25 A Yes, she was there. I was there. Jose was there.
Page 143 Page 145

1 Do you believe that my office had any role in Mr. 1 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance of any
2 Fernandez' case or his outcome? 2 questions regarding Mr. Fernandez' presence on the Burch
3 A Can you rewind and repeat what you think I said? 3 property.
4 Q I think you just said "what we did to Mr. Fernandez." 4 THE WITNESS: And I'm sure I would have introduced
5 MR. LEARY: Object to the form, object to the 5 them.
6 relevance. 6 MR. ANGELL: Well, Ms. Burch testified she's never
7 BY MR. ANGELL: 7 met him before.
8 Q Then later you said my former office. So, are you 8 MR. LEARY: Well, That's actually incorrect.
9 saying we as in the County Attorney's Office? 9 MR. ANGELL: She --
10 MR. LEARY: He's referring to the State Attorney's 10 MR. LEARY: I'm sorry, but --
11 Office. 11 THE WITNESS: I just told you when he was there. I
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sure I was referring to the 12 don't remember whether I introduced him to her. There were
13 State -- 13 a lot of people there. It wasn't just the three of us.
14 THE COURT REPORTER: One at a time, please. 14 There were police officers there. There was some other lady
15 MR. ANGELL: If you have a legal objection, you can 15 who was a big horse person from I think the veterinarian
16 make a legal objection. 16 community. She was there.
17 MR. LEARY: And I believe I did. 17 BY MR. ANGELL:
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, when I was referring to your 18 Q The ASPCA?
19 former office as State Attorneys, which is what your 19 A I don't think she was ASPCA. I think it was some
20 question was about. 20 other...
21 BY MR. ANGELL: 21 Q Was it Laurie Waggoner? If there's a horse involved
22 Q Are you aware that Mr. Fernandez has been physically 22 Laurie is usually there.
23 present on the Burch property? 23 A Yeah, I mean, that might have been it.
24 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance, and object to 24 Q I'm taking a guess, if that was going to be the person.
25 the form. 25 A Yes.
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1 Q Do you know how many times Mr. Fernandez has been 1 Q The Preliminary -- sorry, the Amended Preliminary
2 present on Ms. Burch's property? 2 Injunctive Order requires, as part of the assessment of your
3 A That's the only one I know about. 3 property, the mean high water line to be marked.
4 Q If you believe that DERM is such a predatory agency, 4 Do you know, was that done before Mr. Schael issued his
5 why have you not asked the South Florida Water Management 5 report?
6 District to come on and do an evaluation of your property? 6 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance and object to
7 MR. LEARY: Object to the form, and object to the 7 the form.
8 relevance. 8 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you what was done and
9 THE WITNESS: Why would I? I mean, I have no idea 9 what wasn't done. You're going to have to ask either Schael
10 what you're implying, or why you would think that that would 10 or Jeff. I mean, I just pay bills.
11 be beneficial to me, or why I'd even ask the question. Like 11 BY MR. ANGELL:
12 I don't think I connect the dots on your question. 12 Q So, you do not know if the mean water line was marked
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 prior to the issuance of Mr. Schael's report?
14 Q Well, it's a separate agency from the County. It's a 14 A I know I was asked to pay for somebody to do a mean
15 completely separate agency, isn't it? 15 high water line afterwards. I don't know if there was one done
16 A South Florida Water Management District has nothing to 16 before or not.
17 do with me. 17 Q Well, Mr. Schael has testified that one was not done
18 Q Did you ever ask FDEP? Why not ask FDEP to come and 18 before he authored his report; however, in his report it says
19 evaluate your property? 19 that it was done.
20 A Oh, because -- 20 Were you aware of that error?
21 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. This is -- 21 A I don't know.
22 THE WITNESS: Because they don't have -- as far as 22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Can't state a
23 I'm concerned, they don't have a problem with my property. 23 conclusion like that.
24 They have contacted me a few times, and we've resolved our 24 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 issues, and they've never pursued anything with me. 25 Q The Preliminary Injunctive Order also requires that a
Page 147 Page 149
1 BY MR. ANGELL: 1 jurisdictional wetland boundary be remarked as part of the
2 Q Has anybody from FDEP ever been on your property? 2 assessment.
3 A I don't know. 3 Do you know if that was done prior to the issuance of
4 Q Other than David Ettman, is there any other consultant 4 Mr. Schael's report?
5 that you recall the name of, that you consulted with about 5 A I'm going to go back to what I said earlier. I do not
6 potentially doing the work required under the Preliminary 6 recall the details, because most of it I don't get involved
7 Injunctive Order? 7 with. Everything is delegated to my attorney, who's been
8 A To be honest, I don't recall if we talked to -- we 8 working on the case. He comes to me when there are issues or
9 might have talked to Swakon. 9 problems, or when we need to hire somebody else, and I need to
10 Q Ed Swakon? 10 issue a check for it. I mean, he is fully up to speed on almost
11 A Yeah. 11 every issue, that I've been aware of, on the property for four
12 Q Anybody else? 12 years. So, he's basically been on autopilot for the last year
13 A I forgot whether we were at a stage where I was talking 13 and a half, and is very -- now it's very rare that he comes to
14 to Carney, at that time, or not. Possibly I could have, but I 14 me for everything. He handles everything.
15 don't think I would have asked him, at that time. 15 Q Did you participate in drafting Mr. Schael's report?
16 Q Other than with the assistance of your lawyer, are you 16 A I was asked some questions.
17 aware of anybody else who assisted Mr. Schael in drafting his 17 Q Did you ever edit Mr. Schael's report?
18 report? 18 A No, I don't edit other people's reports.
19 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 19 Q Did you ever make any corrections to Mr. Schael's
20 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, actually that's not 20 report?
21 true. I know he has an employee that helps, and I know for 21 A Not that I recall.
22 sure he was there helping measure, or taking measurements on 22 Q The report states that you were interviewed as part of
23 the property. So, he would definitely be included in that 23 the assessment.
24 list. 24 Were you actually interviewed by Mr. Schael?
25 BY MR. ANGELL: 25 A That's what I just said. I was asked questions.
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1 Q I don't know if that was by Mr. Leary or Mr. Schael. 1 line, and then he marked where you believed the jurisdictional
2 Mr. Leary I can't ask you about it. 2 wetland boundaries to exist on your property, has he done any
3 Were you asked questions by Mr. Schael? 3 other work for you since that day?
4 A Well, the two of them were together. I don't remember 4 MR. LEARY: Object to the form, and object to
5 who asked me the questions. 5 relevance.
6 Q If the two of them were together, then you can answer 6 THE WITNESS: You'd have to ask Jeff, because --
7 questions about what you were asked. 7 not that I know that's different than the work related to
8 A Yes. So, I was asked a bunch of questions and I can't 8 the report.
9 tell you what the questions were, or whether it was one guy or 9 BY MR. ANGELL:
10 the other that asked me the questions. I really don't recall. 10 Q Did Mr. Schael ever show you any mangroves on your
11 Q So, you don't have a recollection of the specific 11 property?
12 questions you were asked. 12 A He's been on my property without me there. I don't
13 Do you recall if Mr. Schael or Mr. Leary were taking 13 know.
14 notes while you were being asked questions? 14 Q Did Mr. Schael ever tell you that you should apply for
15 A I'm sure they were, if they had questions, and they got 15 a Class 1 permit?
16 answers, they would have documented those. It's just logic. I 16 A Not that I recall, at least not as it relates to
17 can't say for sure that I saw them writing anything down. 17 mangroves. I may have asked him about a boat dock.
18 Q Was any interview with you that was done by Mr. Schael, 18 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Schael ever interview Mr.
19 and/or Mr. Leary with Mr. Schael present, recorded in any way, 19 Kunde?
20 be it by video or audio? 20 A I have no knowledge of that.
21 A Ask the question one more time. 21 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Schael ever speak with April
22 Q When you were being interviewed by Mr. Schael, and/or 22 Burch?
23 Mr. Leary while Mr. Schael was present, were any of those 23 A Say that again.
24 interviews recorded either by video or by audio recording? 24 Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Schael ever speak with April
25 A For the report? 25 Burch?
Page 151 Page 153

1 Q Yes. For purposes of making the report. 1 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
2 A No. I don't think so. I don't recall. And I mean, if 2 THE WITNESS: If he did, it was not as a result of
3 they did, I didn't know about it. It's possible. 3 anything I organized or directed, so I really have no
4 Q Did you review any documents with Mr. Schael while he 4 knowledge of that either.
5 was preparing to write the report? 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 A I believe during the questions that I was asked, it was 6 Q Do you know if Mr. Schael was on the Kunde property
7 just like you did today, I was shown pictures and asked 7 prior to the issuance of his report?
8 questions related to pictures. 8 A I'd have to ask him. I just don't know.
9 Q Do you recall whether they were aerial photographs? 9 Q Do you know if Mr. Schael was ever on the Burch
10 A I don't recall the details. 10 Property prior to issuing his report?
11 Q Did you, yourself, ever send any e-mail communications 11 A I don't know.
12 to Mr. Schael directly, or was it all done through your lawyer? 12 Q Mr. Schael's report states that he did field
13 A No, I did frequently. In terms of -- if you're talking 13 reconnaissance on November 14th of 2014.
14 about as it related to the report, that would have been through 14 Were you present for that?
15 Jeff. I speak to Rainer on other issues through e-mails on a 15 A I don't recall. I mean, I believe most of the time
16 somewhat infrequent basis. 16 that he was on the property, Jeff had taken him over there. I
17 Q Does Rainer Schael currently do work for you on the 17 think I saw him and his assistant there once, when they were
18 property? 18 taking measurements of the area of C, maybe. Yeah, yeah.
19 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 19 Q Have you, yourself, spoken to Mr. Schael about the
20 THE WITNESS: No. 20 upcoming EQCB hearing?
21 BY MR. ANGELL: 21 A Only when I saw him at the hearing itself, because I
22 Q After Rainer Schael drafted, or after Mr. Schael's 22 came for a few minutes.
23 report was issued -- 23 Q So, when you saw him last month in June at the hearing,
24 A Right. 24 you exchanged words.
25 Q -- and then subsequently he marked the mean high water 25 Did you talk to him prior to that June hearing about
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1 his upcoming testimony for the EQCB hearing? 1 care of the framing. The drywall guys take care of the drywall,
2 A Jeff would have done that, not me. 2 so on and so forth.
3 Q It's been alleged that mangroves on your property were 3 Q So, Joe Mora was your superintendent?
4 damaged as a result of Hurricane Wilma in 2005. 4 A He wasn't the construction superintendent for the
5 A Well, that's a fact. 5 general contractor. He was my personal property superintendent,
6 Q Do you have any photographs or documentation that would 6 because of the amount of, you know, things that needed to be
7 depict that damage? 7 done to maintain the property, and to provide assistance to the
8 A It is clear to a fifth grader if you look at the aerial 8 subcontractors that came on the property, like where to park, or
9 photographs, from October of 2005 to November of 2005, that 9 if they needed tools that they didn't have, or find something or
10 clearly Hurricane Wilma knocked down trees all over the 10 whatever, or know what to do, he was my guy.
11 coastline, and a significant number of taller trees were snapped 11 Q So, he worked directly for you?
12 on my property on the coastline. 12 A Uh-huh (affirmative expression).
13 Q Other than aerial photographs, do you have any other 13 Q Was that for the whole time the construction on the
14 photographs of the hurricane damage? 14 property was being built?
15 A I don't believe so. 15 A It was probably part of it. It was probably the later
16 Q After Wilma, mangroves that had broken branches, or 16 part of it.
17 that were damaged by Wilma, did you cut any part of those trees? 17 Q Did you have somebody for the earlier part of it? Did
18 A Repeat the question. 18 you have a different --
19 Q Sure. I'm understanding from you that some of the 19 A Yeah, a different group of people. At the beginning --
20 mangroves on your property that were damaged by Wilma had broken 20 Q Yeah.
21 branches, is that correct? 21 A -- when it first got started, I would say, it was
22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 22 mostly Salvador Halpin, and Tinker...I forgot his last
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 name...from Vermont.
24 BY MR. ANGELL: 24 Q Is Salvador Halpin with a company? Does he work for a
25 Q Did you remove the broken branches, or leave them 25 business or a company of some sort?
Page 155 Page 157

1 attached to the tree? 1 A No. He worked directly for me back then.
2 A I don't recall. I mean, if we went back and took a 2 Q So, he does not have his own business?
3 look at the photographs from November and put it to each tree we 3 A No, no.
4 could probably figure it out. 4 Q And Mr. Tinker...which I don't know if that's his first
5 Q Would you have had anybody that would have assisted you 5 name or his last name...did he just work directly for you, and
6 with that post-Wilma? 6 not through a company?
7 A No. 7 A Correct. I think in the case of Tinker I got him from
8 Q Right after Wilma, did you have anybody assist you in 8 a temp agency, or a day-to-day. He was hired as day laborer and
9 cleaning up your property? 9 I just --
10 A I don't recall. Yeah, I'm sure. That was 2005. That 10 Q Kept him?
11 was during construction. I had a construction crew there. So, 11 A -- kept him. And Salvador was a waiter at a restaurant
12 I believe, at that time, Joe Mora was my construction, kind of 12 nearby that a friend of mine introduced me to.
13 superintendent that worked directly for me, not the contractor. 13 Q And Joe Mora, how do you know him?
14 And he had one or two other guys that I paid to watch things 14 A I don't know where I found him.
15 there, and help the contractors with. So, they would have 15 Q But he wasn't affiliated with a business?
16 helped if they were there, at that time. 16 A No.
17 Q I have to show my ignorance. 17 Q After Wilma, did you inquire from DERM as to what
18 What does a superintendent do? 18 regulations might apply to the cutting of Wilma-damaged
19 A It's somebody that stays onsite and helps with anything 19 mangroves?
20 anybody needs. So, you know, if there was a general contractor 20 A No. If you recall from the letter, the Clingerman
21 that had to redo this office, and tear out all the drywall, and 21 letter, they were not allowed on my property, the staff.
22 put new stuff in, the general contractor doesn't sit here. He's 22 Q I'm not talking about having them on your property.
23 the one who holds the license. It is the job superintendent who 23 A I did not communicate with them.
24 would be here, day in and day out, and make sure the 24 Q Did you communicate with FDEP?
25 electricians get work done. You know, the framing guys take 25 A No.
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1 Q No? 1 If you recall, 2005 was the height of the construction
2 A No. 2 boom. And what was happening is, like most of the general
3 Q Civic Construction, when they were building the 3 contractors in Dade County...that go through the droughts of the
4 structure on your property, did they have anything to do with 4 real estate recessions and the booms of the real estate
5 clearing the property? 5 highs...they tend to grab every project they can when things are
6 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 6 good, and they overcommit their resources. And that was
7 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. 7 happening on my property, where I had been getting very good
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 service and good attention from Civic in 2003/2004, and then in
9 Q Did Civic Construction have to level your property in 9 2005 they had so many projects going on, things were being
10 order for the structure to be built? 10 neglected. So, I don't exactly remember what happened, but they
11 MR. LEARY: Object to form. 11 were, let's say, less involved in '05 and '06.
12 THE WITNESS: I don't honestly recall who did that. 12 Q Did another company step in?
13 I can tell you, with respect to exactly where the house 13 A I don't remember.
14 is -- I don't know. I'd have to look and figure it out or 14 Q When you say they were less involved in '05 and '06,
15 talk to them. 15 did they continue doing work on the property, though, during
16 16 those years?
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 A I believe what happened is they continued to be listed
18 Q Did Civic Construction have anything to do with 18 as the general contractor of record, and I got help from
19 mangrove trimming on your property? 19 somebody that was a construction expert to just help me make
20 A Not that I know of. 20 sure everything was done right.
21 Q Did Civic Construction have anything to do with the 21 Q You don't recall who that person was?
22 removal of any mangroves off your property? 22 A Oh, yes, I do.
23 A Not that I know of. 23 Q Who?
24 Q Do you know if Civic -- well, we have aerial 24 A Armando Evora. His company --
25 photographs, which I know you've seen, that show all the fill 25 Q Can you spell the last name?
Page 159 Page 161

1 that was brought on your property for various reasons. 1 A E-V-O-R-A.
2 Do you know if Civic Construction had anything to do 2 Q Thank you.
3 with arranging for the delivery of that fill? 3 A His company was called, and it still is -- it will come
4 A Obviously they would have, yeah. 4 to me. I'll get back to you on that one.
5 Q Do you know who it is that they worked with to get the 5 Q I didn't even have a cheese steak, and I don't have a
6 fill? 6 memory of it. I think I knew it earlier, but it will come to
7 A I have no idea. 7 one of us. But you believe he's still with the same company?
8 Q Do you know if Civic Construction had anything to do 8 A No, Armando has his own company. I just forget the
9 with placing any fill on the Burch property? 9 name. He's basically a one-man shop.
10 A You'd have to ask the Burches. I don't believe there's 10 Q During the construction of the property on your
11 any communication between Willie Real from Civic and the 11 house -- sorry. During the construction of your house on your
12 Burches, to the best of my knowledge. 12 property --
13 Q April Burch gave a deposition, as did Elliot Burch in 13 A What did you have for lunch?
14 the Burch enforcement case. 14 Q -- how often would you go to observe the progress?
15 Did you ever read either of those depositions? 15 A Well, Eyecast hadn't started yet, and I had already
16 A No. 16 moved there. So, from 2000 and -- was it 2002 maybe -- or 2003
17 Q Did Civic Construction remain in your employment 17 to 2005 was during the 10-home development next to Palmer
18 throughout the entire building project on your property? 18 Trinity. So, that was about a mile away from my current house.
19 A That's actually a good question. I believe the answer 19 So, I was basically doing that close to full-time, so I was
20 is no. 20 there basically everyday, almost everyday.
21 Q What happened there? Why did they become no longer -- 21 Q When you say you were there everyday, you're referring
22 A We've got the Philly cheese steak situation again. 22 to the development of the 10 homes, you were there everyday
23 Oh, I think I recall. I think the issue was because 23 or --
24 the beginning of the project was 2003, and it didn't get 24 A Yeah, there or at the house.
25 finished until December of '06 for the CO. 25 Q So, you would go by?
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1 A One or the other, yeah. 1 A I assume they did the calculations.
2 Q So, multiple times a week -- 2 Q Do you know if there's anyone who was specifically
3 A Yes. 3 tasked by Civic Construction to oversee fill on the property?
4 Q -- during the period of '02 to '05 you would go to your 4 A I don't know.
5 property to observe whatever was happening with construction? 5 Q Do you know if any of the fill that was brought onto
6 A That's fair to say, yes. 6 the property was ever turned away as being unacceptable?
7 Q Other than the names of the businesses, that you have 7 A I don't know.
8 already provided me as people that did work on your property 8 Q Do you know who was actually responsible for spreading
9 during the construction of your home, do you recall any other 9 the fill on the property?
10 contractors that did work on the property? 10 A Again, you'd have to ask Civic Construction, some
11 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 11 subcontractor.
12 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question? 12 Q Were the property boundaries marked, in any way, during
13 BY MR. ANGELL: 13 the development of your property?
14 Q Sure. Other than the ones you've already told me 14 A The only thing that I know was marked was a keepaway
15 about, do you recall the names of any other contractors or 15 line by Steve Carney. But as a result of a late, last-minute
16 subcontractors who did work on your property? 16 request from DERM so that we could figure a safe place to put
17 A We could probably spend half an hour going through that 17 the -- they call them the Ferguson barriers, so that during
18 list, if you want. 18 rains, the soil and silt don't run off into the bay.
19 Q I'm asking do you recall? 19 Q Is that the only boundary demarcation, that you're
20 A Yes. That's what I'm saying. I mean, there's 20 aware of --
21 literally hundreds of them. Over time, a bunch of them will pop 21 A Well --
22 into my head. 22 Q -- that was done back then? Sorry.
23 Q Businesses? 23 A Well, for boundary demarcation? Well, before you get
24 A Yeah. The plumbers, Walter's Plumbing I think they 24 your CO you have to get an elevation certificate, but that's not
25 were called. Electricians, mechanical was Miami Restaurant 25 -- I mean that's elevation, not boundaries. It's this way, not
Page 163 Page 165

1 Repair. Patricio was kind of an independent team. There was 1 that way (indicating).
2 weatherproofing guys. That was, I think, Advanced Caulking. 2 Q Sure.
3 Painting was Active Drywall. Framing and drywall was Active 3 A I didn't have a loan on the property, so I wasn't
4 Drywall. The pool guy was Mandy's Drywall, but he had a 4 required to get a survey, if that's what you mean.
5 different company for pools. I mean, it's a long list. I could 5 Q So, there was no survey done?
6 just go on here forever. 6 A No.
7 Q We'll do it in a different way with interrogatories. 7 Q Elevation --
8 A Yeah, it's easier. 8 A Well, let me rephrase that. There wasn't a survey done
9 Q We've already talked briefly about fill being placed on 9 as a requirement for the home construction. There was a survey
10 the property for the construction. 10 required for removal of the original septic tank, and demolition
11 Do you have any idea how much fill was brought onto 11 of the original pool in the front of the property before the
12 your property? 12 house was built.
13 A I don't know. I wasn't there when the fill was being 13 Q That survey that was done for the purposes that you've
14 delivered, except if I got lucky and I just happened to be there 14 just stated, was that survey of the entire property?
15 when a truck pulled in. So, I have no way of knowing because -- 15 A I don't think so. I don't recall exactly. It was
16 yeah, I don't know. You'd have to ask Civic Construction. 16 another case of, you know, call it what you want, within Dade
17 Q Who's responsibility was it to direct the placement of 17 County, where I had applied for demolition of the original
18 the fill on your property? 18 house. I was in Virginia. The architects down here did all the
19 A Civic Construction. 19 paperwork for me. They submitted it. It came back, month after
20 Q And was it Civic Construction's responsibility to also 20 month, just kind of getting kicked back to the architect. They
21 determine if the fill that was being brought on the property was 21 told me this very often happens in Dade County with properties
22 appropriate to fill the property? 22 that, you know, clearly are high-valued, and high net worth
23 A I assume so, yeah. 23 individuals own them.
24 Q Was it also Civic Construction's job to determine how 24 And so, that went on for like six months. And,
25 much fill would be needed? 25 actually, I just went ahead and hired a bulldozer before they
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1 gave me the permit, because I got tired of it. So, I just 1 knock them down, run over and go steel my neighbor's propellers.
2 knocked it down, and then a day later, when they saw what was 2 So, they destroyed the original gates.
3 happening they issued the permit. So, that's kind of how the 3 I replaced them with chain link gates, cheap chain link
4 thing evolved. 4 swing doors during construction. Towards the end of the
5 Q But did you ever actually see the survey that was done 5 construction the service gate was put in first, and then they
6 for the purpose of demolition? 6 used that one. And then, after construction was done the main
7 A Like I said, it was for the septic and for the swimming 7 gates were finally put in for the entrance to the property.
8 pool. So, I think what they did was they took the original 8 BY MR. ANGELL:
9 surveys that you've seen from 1992 or four, or whenever it was, 9 Q Is there a mechanism for someone to contact you if they
10 from Task Surveyors. And I continued to use them. They were10 come to your front gate and want to get onto your property?
11 still around back then. And they just came out and marked the 11 A Cell phone.
12 locations and submitted that. 12 Q So, there's no --
13 Q So, it was a recertification of an older survey with 13 A They'd have to know my phone number.
14 some additional -- 14 Q So, if someone is driving up to the property and wanted
15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 15 to pop in and surprise you, they can't access unless they call
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think they just added the 16 your actual phone?
17 location of the septic. 17 A Or they know the gate code.
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 Q Do you have surveillance camera at the front of the
19 Q So, a complete new survey was not done? 19 property?
20 A Correct. 20 A Yeah, multiple.
21 Q During the construction of your home was a gate built 21 Q From your surveillance system, can you remotely view in
22 at the entrance to your property? 22 real-time people who come to the front of your property?
23 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. 23 A Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Say that again. 24 Q I hope so, especially given your business.
Page 167 Page 169

1 Q During the construction of your home was a gate built 1 Q If not, then...
2 at the entrance to your property? 2 MR. LEARY: It could be Cubans. They could come
3 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance. 3 the other way.
4 THE WITNESS: Was a gate built? 4 BY MR. ANGELL:
5 BY MR. ANGELL: 5 Q Is there a dock on your property currently?
6 Q Yeah. 6 A There's a floating dock that's been there for a long
7 A There was chain links put in, yes. 7 time, yeah.
8 Q At some point -- I know, because I've been to your 8 Q During the course of your ownership of the property was
9 property. At some point, there's an actual, very-nicely built 9 the dock ever reconstructed?
10 mechanical gate at the front of the property that exists now, 10 A It was maintained. So, as it rotted out there were new
11 right? 11 boards put in, yeah.
12 A You mean the one that opens -- 12 Q Was the structure ever taken down, and then rebuilt?
13 Q To let cars in. 13 A Well, as I said, as the boards are out of there,
14 A Yeah, those are the aluminum gates that I had made 14 they're removed and replaced with new ones.
15 after the construction was completed. 15 Q Well, is that something like a one-board-at-a-time sort
16 Q So, this was done after the construction was completed? 16 of thing, or two-boards-at-a-time sort of thing?
17 A For the most part, yeah. Maybe a little before it was 17 A I would like choose one at a time.
18 completed, but near the end. 18 Q So, at no point in time was the whole thing taken out
19 Q While the construction was being done, was there a gate 19 and a new one rebuilt?
20 at the front of the property coming in? 20 A No, it was piece by piece. But, I mean, ultimately all
21 A There was a cheap chain link swing gates -- well, 21 the pieces were replaced.
22 actually that's not right. 22 Q That was going to be my next question.
23 At the beginning, when I bought the property, there 23 Has the entire dock now been, shall we say, fixed?
24 were I guess the original aluminum gates from the previous 24 A Yeah, fixed over time, and the process will have to
25 owner. And then there were dump trucks that would come and just 25 start all over as it starts to decay again from water.
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1 Q Is there any part of the original dock that's still 1 Q Who was the septic company that you employed?
2 there? 2 A A-League Contractors.
3 A Yeah. 3 Q Have you ever had any relationship with Chapman Septic?
4 Q How much of the original dock? 4 A No.
5 A The little metal things that hold the floating dock to 5 Q Have you ever known Joe Chapman, the owner of that
6 the mangroves. 6 business?
7 Q Did you ever get a permit for the dock? 7 A I have met him on occasion, yes.
8 A It was preexisting. 8 Q Has he ever been to your property?
9 Q So, is it your opinion you didn't need to get a permit 9 A That's a good question. I don't recall.
10 to do the repairs to the dock? 10 Q The septic company you used, was it through your
11 A No, I mean, Mr. Ricisak started barking about that at 11 general contractor?
12 the EQCB meeting with Tom Robertson while I was there. And 12 A Well, I think I may have selected them, and I don't
13 Robertson basically told him to keep quiet about that, and it 13 know if the payment was direct, or through the general
14 was never made an issue after that. 14 contractor for their services.
15 Q By barking, I assume you mean -- 15 Q How many times were they on your property?
16 A He was hounding County Attorney Robertson to make an 16 A A lot.
17 issue out of it, and Robertson said no. 17 Q How long did their work take? Did it take more than a
18 Q Back in March of 2013 you took a photograph of Mr. 18 year?
19 Ricisak...since we're talking about him...you took a photograph 19 A Yes, because they didn't just do my septic. I'm
20 of Mr. Ricisak using a cell phone when he was on your property. 20 probably the only residential property in all of Dade County
21 A What date was this? 21 that DERM required that I put storm drains on the outside of the
22 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 22 property, despite the fact that there's no asphalt paving there,
23 BY MR. ANGELL: 23 just to make my life difficult, which cost me tens of thousands
24 Q Back in March of 2013. 24 of dollars. A-League Contractor was the contractor that put all
25 Do you remember doing that? 25 these storm drains around my property.
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1 A No. 1 Q I'm sorry. I keep missing the first name of it.
2 Q Do you know if you still have any pictures of Mr. 2 A-League?
3 Ricisak from his time on your property? 3 A A-League. A, hyphen...L-E-A-G-U-E.
4 A At what event was that? 4 Q Thank you. And do you know who the principal is of
5 Q I'm asking: Do you know if you have any pictures that 5 A-League Contractors.
6 you personally took of Mr. Ricisak on your property? 6 A Yeah, his last name is Suarez.
7 A Well, there was a time when he and other DERM people 7 Q Do you know if he's still with A-League contractors?
8 were on the property doing what they call their -- what was 8 A Yes, I think so.
9 supposed to be the wetland delineation. We got a continuance 9 Q Let's talk about Steve Carney.
10 from DERM, based on Attorney Robertson and Attorney Lucas' 10 Prior to hiring Steve Carney, did you know him?
11 agreement in front of the EQCB, that there would be a historical 11 A Prior to hiring him at what point in time?...because I
12 wetland delineation evaluation done by DERM, if I would allow 12 hired him on multiple occasions.
13 them on the property to do so. 13 Q The first time you hired him, prior to hiring him the
14 As I recall, when that was done, Mr. Ricisak basically 14 first time, did you know him before?
15 made some comment to the effect of: That's not what we're here 15 A You're talking about like in the 2002/2003 time frame?
16 for. I believe during that visit, when he was digging holes, I 16 Q Yes, sir.
17 probably did take a picture of him. If that's when you're 17 A No.
18 referring to, that would make sense to me. 18 Q How did he come to be your first environmental
19 Q What did you ever do with that picture? 19 consultant?
20 A I don't recall. 20 A He was probably recommended by my architects.
21 Q Do you still have the picture? 21 Q Did you interview anybody else, other than Steve
22 A This is a new phone, and it's not on my new phone, so 22 Carney, back in 2001/2002?
23 it's probably on the old phone somewhere. 23 A I don't recall.
24 Q Did you ever employ Chapman's Septic Tank? 24 Q What services was he initially hired to perform for
25 A No. 25 you?
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1 A I don't know. I didn't know at the time. 1 Q Indicating the area next to the -- well, you've drawn,
2 Q Back at the first time he was retained to work on your 2 for the record, a large circle which encompasses the letter B,
3 property, did you have a contract with him? 3 although not line of vegetation that's part of B.
4 A I don't remember. 4 And so, you say he dug three holes somewhere in that
5 Q Back when he was first retained to work on your 5 area?
6 property, did you ever have an actual conversation with Steve 6 A Yes.
7 Carney? 7 Q Do you recall what, if anything, Mr. Carney said he
8 A Yes, I did, because one of the things that I discovered 8 observed from those three holes, other than what you mentioned?
9 was that it appeared that there was a significant amount of fill 9 A Yeah, he said clearly there were chunks of concrete
10 placed on my property in the south kind of portion of the 10 that appeared to be from demolition of pools that was dumped
11 property. 11 there, at some point over the past years.
12 So, I asked Mr. Carney to take my backhoe driver, who 12 Q Do you recall how far down those holes were dug?
13 was on the property trenching at the time he was there. And I 13 A I don't, but, you know, it was a full-size backhoe.
14 asked him to pick three arbitrary spots and direct the backhoe 14 So, you know, it was -- I don't recall.
15 driver to start digging, which he did. And on all three spots 15 Q Do you recall if any of the holes ever dug hit the
16 that they picked they found buried -- it looked like it was 16 water table?
17 concrete from swimming pools that had been demolished and put 17 A I don't even recall whether it was high tide or low
18 there. 18 tide, or any of that stuff. So, no, I don't -- and I wasn't
19 Q Do you know who the backhoe driver was? 19 standing on top of it. I just told them to do that. They did
20 A Yeah, it was Mike Evora. 20 it, and then Steve had told me -- he said: Come on over and
21 Q Do you remember what company he was with? 21 take a look. And I swung on by, and he showed me the
22 A Why don't you include that in the Interrogatories. 22 bluish-colored, painted, colored concrete chunks underground.
23 I'll get that to you. 23 Q I understand that you felt there was fill placed on
24 Q Did you take any pictures of the holes that were dug? 24 that section of the property, which is why you had Mr. Carney
25 A No, I didn't. 25 dig the holes.
Page 175 Page 177

1 Q Do you know if Steve Carney did? 1 Was this before construction began on your property?
2 A I told him to document it at the time in his report, 2 A This was when I trenched. This was at the same time
3 which he did not. 3 that I trenched. I'd have to go back to the records to see. It
4 Q Steve Carney's report does reference the digging of 4 was at the same time I trenched for the fiberoptics underground.
5 test pits on the property, and it also references photographs 5 Q At the time that Mr. Carney, with the use of the
6 which Mr. Carney says he did do a report, but that he no longer 6 backhoe and backhoe driver, dug the holes, had fill already been
7 has it, or has the photographs. 7 placed on your property in order to prepare for the building of
8 Have you ever seen the photographs attached to his 8 your house?
9 report concerning the digging? 9 A Certainly not that in that section, no.
10 A Yeah, the fact of the matter is I did speak to Carney 10 Q Had fill been placed on your property elsewhere for the
11 about those holes that we dug with the backhoe. You know, when 11 preparation of the building of your house?
12 I rehired him, he had no recollection, so I questioned the guy's 12 A I'd have to look at the dates to see if -- I mean, I
13 memory. So, I don't know what -- I can't comment on what he 13 don't recall whether it was before or after, you know, the
14 says he did or didn't do. I really can't. 14 pilings and the structure of the house was done.
15 Q I'm going to show you what's marked for identification 15 Q At any point in time that Mr. Carney has worked for
16 as Exhibit 3. 16 you, to your knowledge, has Mr. Carney done a wetland
17 A Okay. 17 delineation on your property?
18 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's 18 A I don't know.
19 Exhibit No. 3 for identification to the deposition.) 19 Q Have you ever directed Mr. Carney to do a wetland
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 delineation of your property?
21 Q Can you show you me where on Exhibit 3 you recall Mr. 21 A No.
22 Carney dug the holes, or how the backhoe driver dug the holes? 22 Q Other than those three test holes that were dug by the
23 A Yeah, it was...let me use your pen. 23 person with the backhoe at your request, under the supervision
24 Q (Counsel hands pen to witness.) 24 of Mr. Carney, and the test holes that were dug later on by
25 A It was in this area here (indicating). 25 DERM, do you know if any other test holes were ever dug on your
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1 property? 1 didn't mean anything to me. It was the different types of soils
2 A Well, I don't know if you'd call them test holes, but 2 at the different elevations. So, I have no idea.
3 there were 30-foot piling holes that were made, 260 or 280 of 3 Q Do you know where specifically they took soil samples
4 them. 4 from?
5 Q Do you know what company did the -- well, let me ask 5 A No idea.
6 this. 6 Q Do you remember the name of the company that did that
7 Do you know what the purpose of those were? 7 work?
8 A The purpose of? 8 A I believe it was a different company than the one that
9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 9 did the pilings. I think, but I'm not sure.
10 BY MR. ANGELL: 10 Q Does Ardaman & Associates sound familiar?
11 Q Of the concrete poles that were placed in the ground. 11 A It does.
12 A The pilings you're talking about? 12 Q Do you recall if they were the company?
13 Q Yeah, the pilings. 13 A They might have been.
14 A Yeah, to hold the house up. 14 Q If Steve Carney didn't do a wetland delineation on your
15 Q Were they inserted in the area that is the blueprint of 15 property, how is it that you know that the areas that were
16 the house? 16 outside of his keep-away mark, as we'll call it, that he sprayed
17 A Yes, they were -- 17 into the ground, were not wetlands?
18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, they were designed -- the way 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't say that. You did.
20 it works is when you have a house that's being built on 20 And it was his job to figure that out.
21 unstable ground where you can't put a pad, like you normally 21 BY MR. ANGELL:
22 do, of fresh lime rock, you put pilings in. And the 22 Q I'll rephrase it.
23 engineers do the calculations and figure out how many are 23 Do you know if the areas outside the keep-away area
24 needed to hold up the house. 24 marked by Steve Carney were not wetlands?
25 They drill 30-foot holes, or so. They put rebar in 25 A Were not, or were?
Page 179 Page 181
1 them. They fill them up with concrete, and then they tie 1 Q Were not.
2 one, two or three of them together, and put something called 2 A It was my understanding, at the time...because of the
3 pile caps on top. So, it's like a little cup on top of this 3 last minute crap that we had to deal with from DERM...we had
4 thing. So, that's the pile cap. 4 very few days before everything was going to expire, and they
5 Then they line the pile caps up to put grade beams 5 would have had to start all over with new plans, the new
6 which are these giant concrete joists that are basically 6 building codes, and start everything all over. We had to get
7 placed in the foundation of the house, and then the house 7 this thing done in like a matter of a couple of days.
8 sits on top of the grade beams. Then they use fill to fill 8 So, Steve Carney basically said: Look, I'm just going
9 in between all the grade beams so that there's no animals 9 to eyeball this, walk around with red spray paint and draw a
10 that can nest underneath, otherwise it would be hollow 10 line that we know is safe for the Ferguson barriers to put in,
11 underneath the house. That's the point of the pilings. And 11 in order that we're not going to infringe on wetlands.
12 the pilings not only were required to hold the house, but 12 So, to me, my interpretation is clearly that meant that
13 they required me to put pilings underneath the swimming 13 was upland of where the wetlands were.
14 pool, as well, to tie that down. 14 MR. ANGELL: I'm going to reuse No. 4 from another
15 Q Do you know if any soil samples were done by whatever 15 deposition, and it happens to be No. 4 for your deposition.
16 company put in the pilings before doing that? 16 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's
17 A Well, there were definitely soil samples done before 17 Exhibit No. 4 for identification to the deposition.)
18 they started making the holes. 18 BY MR. ANGELL:
19 Q Did you ever see what the results of those soil samples 19 Q Have you seen this document before?
20 were? 20 A Yes.
21 A I probably read it. I think it's called the 21 Q When did you first see this document?
22 geotechnical or something...he probably would know better than I 22 A So, this is the document that was made -- again, we
23 would (indicating Mr. Ricisak)...the report that had to be done. 23 were on very short number of days before everything expired
24 I probably read it back during, you know, when the construction 24 because of what DERM had done by serializing all of their
25 was starting just because I had free time back then. But it 25 processes. And I almost ran out of time, so to expedite the
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1 process, instead of consulting a lot of experts, we just did 1 sprayed the paint, a line of paint on the ground where he
2 everything as fast as possible. 2 knew it was upland area and it would be safe. And, as long
3 Steve Carney went and sprayed his red line. I then had 3 as that's where we put the barrier, we would stop the silt
4 Task Surveyors come immediately the next morning after the red 4 from getting into the bay or into the waters.
5 spray paint was down, and I told them to mark on their survey an 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 outline of my property where that red line was put, and call it 6 Q And everything south and east of that line was an area
7 this. That was my direction and Steve Carney's direction to the 7 that Steve Carney denoted as a keepaway from, right?
8 surveyors. 8 A No. He said that's a safe place to put the barrier to
9 Q So, you directed the surveyors to call that "location 9 ensure that we don't possibly infringe, and without further,
10 of jurisdictional wetland"? 10 in-depth analysis this was the safest place to put it.
11 A Probably. 11 Q Was any further in-depth analysis done of the area
12 Q Steve Carney -- I mean, that's consistent. See, Steve 12 south and east of what's marked as the jurisdictional wetland
13 Carney says he did not tell them to call it that. 13 line even though it was a keepaway line --
14 A Yeah. 14 A There was no reason to --
15 Q He had no idea where that came from. 15 Q -- by anybody prior to the construction of the home
16 A I probably did because the paperwork I got from DERM 16 being completed?
17 probably had that term on it, and I just -- I didn't know what 17 A No. It was the first time we were asked, was days
18 it was, so that's what I told him to write on here, most likely. 18 before the 365 days was going to expire.
19 Q The line that he sprayed is, in fact, represented on 19 Is there a date on this thing?
20 Exhibit 4 as a jurisdictional wetland line, correct? 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You have 5 minutes left.
21 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 21 MR. ANGELL: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, we went over this in the last 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's dated February 13th of
23 EQCB, and we made it clear that that's a keepaway line. 23 '03. We had just a very few number of days before the
24 It's just mislabeled on this, but yes. 24 one-year mark would expire, thanks to DERM. So, we were
25 BY MR. ANGELL: 25 given this requirement at the last minute by DERM, and we
Page 183 Page 185
1 Q Yeah, I've read the transcript. 1 had to get it done as quickly as possible, and we did the
2 A Okay. 2 best we could.
3 Q I know the testimony. 3 BY MR. ANGELL:
4 So, it is labeled, and it's labeled that way by -- 4 Q When you retained Steve Carney for the purpose of your
5 (Phone rings.) 5 initial appeal to the EQCB, what instructions did you give Mr.
6 A By Task Surveyors. 6 Carney?
7 Q It is labeled that way by Task Surveyors. 7 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
8 Did you also direct them to label it that, in addition 8 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by the "initial
9 to the label on there? 9 appeal to the EQCB"?
10 A I think I did. I think it was me that did that. And 10 BY MR. ANGELL:
11 it's probably based on something, some document that either the11 Q Well, we're on the second appeal. I'm talking about
12 architects or somebody handed me, and I just -- or maybe 12 the first time -- well, let me rephrase the question.
13 something the plans processor handed it to me, and I probably 13 A No, it wasn't the first time --
14 just pulled it off of some document I found. 14 Q There was an appeal -- there was a prior proceeding
15 Q So, Steve Carney didn't do an actual wetland 15 before the EQCB for which you had retained Mr. Carney, correct?
16 delineation. 16 A Be specific on dates when you refer to EQCB because
17 Do you know what the basis of Steve Carney's belief was 17 I've been in front of the EQCB many times, for my property and
18 that everything sort of north of that line -- 18 other matters as well.
19 A Northwest. 19 Q How many times have you been in front of the EQCB on
20 Q Thank you -- north and west of the jurisdictional 20 this property?
21 wetland line was not, in fact, a wetland delineation? 21 A Well, before the construction started, I had to get a
22 MR. LEARY: Objection to form. 22 variance for water access from the EQCB. That was years
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, like I said, we ran out of 23 earlier.
24 time. So, he didn't have time to do a proper evaluation of 24 Q There was a hearing before the EQCB on May 9th, 2013.
25 any sort of biological accuracy, so he just eyeballed it, 25 So, in 2013 did you retain Mr. Carney's services?
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1 A Yes, we did, as the expert for that hearing. 1 A No.
2 Q Did you define Mr. Carney's scope of work for that 2 Q Did you ask him to dig test holes in 2013?
3 hearing? 3 A No. The only thing he did was he did some research,
4 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 4 like getting the ADID for us. He went back and did some
5 THE WITNESS: I did not. My attorney did. 5 overlays with the GPS overlays, or whatever they do with the
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 aerials, to come up with some analysis to do calculations on the
7 Q Did you ever speak to Mr. Carney about what his 7 canopy that he was arguing with the DERM people over, something
8 testimony should be before the EQCB? 8 like that, but that was all related to the EQCB. So, I think
9 A I did not. My attorney did. 9 the answer to your question is no.
10 Q I'm referring to May 9th, 2013. The first session -- 10 Q Did he ever go back on your property in 2013?
11 let me jump back. 11 A For what?
12 The first time that you had Mr. Carney in your 12 Q Was he ever on your property in 2013?
13 employment, how long did he work for you? 13 A I didn't invite him onto my property afterwards.
14 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have two minutes left.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I didn't even 15 MR. ANGELL: Okay. Well, we'll break so you can
16 remember that...what's his name?...Swakon worked for me, 16 change it.
17 until I found the paperwork. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. The time is
18 BY MR. ANGELL: 18 3:30 p.m.
19 Q After the initial time that you hired him, and then 19 (Whereupon, a brief recess was taken from 3:30 p.m.
20 obviously you hired him again in 2013, was there any time in 20 until 3:39 p.m.)
21 between that you used him again? 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record. The
22 A I don't think so. I don't recall any. 22 time is 3:39 p.m.
23 Q Did Mr. Carney do any additional work in preparation 23 BY MR. ANGELL:
24 for the 2013 EQCB hearing? 24 Q We were talking about Mr. Carney when we broke.
25 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 25 Have you ever read Carney's report that he did for you
Page 187 Page 189

1 THE WITNESS: What do you mean? 1 in 2002?
2 BY MR. ANGELL: 2 A Yes, a couple of times, but not recently.
3 Q Well, he had done work on your property initially when 3 Q When was the last time you read it?
4 you originally hired him -- 4 A Probably four years ago.
5 A Right. 5 Q At the EQCB hearing on June 3rd of 2013, Carney
6 Q -- that led to this diagram, Exhibit 4. You know he 6 testified that he had no reason to dispute John Ricisak's
7 did test pits and wrote a report that no one has ever seen, and 7 position that there were mangroves in the southern boundary of
8 he's done his actual report about vegetation on the property, 8 your property that's labeled E in Exhibit 1.
9 which we've all seen. 9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. I
10 Other than that work, was he tasked with doing any 10 don't believe that's entirely accurate.
11 additional work in 2013 in preparation for the EQCB hearing? 11 BY MR. ANGELL:
12 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. 12 Q Do you recall him testifying as to that?
13 Was that a question? 13 A I recall him being tripped up by Tom Robertson, and
14 THE WITNESS: Just one more time. 14 basically appearing to take both sides of a particular question
15 BY MR. ANGELL: 15 because of the way the question was phrased. So, I really don't
16 Q Sure. Did you have him do any additional work on your 16 know.
17 property in preparation for the 2013 EQCB hearing? 17 Q So, you do not recall, or you don't have any -- you
18 A When you say additional work -- 18 don't remember the testimony? Let me ask it this way.
19 MR. LEARY: Object to form. 19 Do you remember Steve Carney giving testimony about the
20 THE WITNESS: -- you mean work unrelated to his 20 presence of mangroves in Area E?
21 testimony in the EQCB? 21 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question. I
22 BY MR. ANGELL: 22 believe that is not accurate.
23 Q I mean work unrelated. I mean, did he do anything 23 THE WITNESS: I was there when he spoke. I could
24 additional, such as did you direct him to do a wetland 24 not tell you today what he said, though. I really don't
25 delineation in 2013? 25 recall, other than the one very annoying thing that he said.
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1 BY MR. ANGELL: 1 by 30 foot, or so, piece of sod, or sodded area that I put down
2 Q Which very annoying thing would that be? 2 in the corner in between A and C, that I would be happy to take
3 A Well, he had said repeatedly throughout that the 3 back up, if that would make everybody happy.
4 exhibit that was marked on the survey as a wetland delineation 4 Q Do you recall who you made that statement to at DERM?
5 was clearly as a keep-away boundary line. 5 A I think it made it publicly at the EQCB.
6 And then Attorney Robertson started doing: If this, 6 Q On the record?
7 then this. And just tricked him into answering the question 7 A I think so.
8 that conflicted with what he said earlier, basically saying 8 Q Well, you were displeased with Mr. Carney's testimony,
9 that: If that is true, then didn't Mr. Dubois illegally, or 9 is that correct?
10 violate this or that? And he just took advantage of Carney's 10 A Yes, because he got tripped up by -- you know, because
11 weaknesses. 11 of legal gymnastics by Tom Robertson.
12 Q Well, referring to Exhibit 3, Mr. Carney testified that 12 Q You didn't pay Mr. Carney for his services, is that
13 in the area that is E there's a strip of vegetation that used to 13 correct?
14 be there and was removed, and palm trees were subsequently 14 MR. LEARY: Object to relevance.
15 placed there. 15 THE WITNESS: No, that's not correct.
16 Do you remember that testimony? 16 BY MR. ANGELL:
17 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 17 Q Did you pay Mr. Carney for his services?
18 THE WITNESS: In E? I don't -- I know that was 18 A I did pay him for his services, yes.
19 discussed. I could not tell you that I recall a single 19 Q When did you pay him for his services?
20 specific statement of his about that. 20 MR. LEARY: I object to any questions regarding
21 BY MR. ANGELL: 21 payments paid to Steve Carney.
22 Q Do you recall Mr. Carney testifying that sod was placed 22 THE WITNESS: There were multiple payments made
23 in the area that's identified as E in Exhibit 3? 23 over time, from 2003 to his work during the EQCB.
24 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Not a question. 24 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I testified that sod was put by 25 Q Mr. Carney has testified that you never paid him for
Page 191 Page 193

1 me, in between kind of the corner of A and C. And I believe 1 his services in 2013.
2 I also mentioned that, yeah, sod was put down in Area E with 2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. That's not
3 some top soil underneath it. 3 accurate.
4 BY MR. ANGELL: 4 THE WITNESS: That's not true.
5 Q Do you remember testimony that sod is fill? 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 6 Q You sent Mr. Carney an e-mail telling him that you were
7 THE WITNESS: The only thing I remember, relative 7 displeased with his testimony.
8 to somebody calling sod fill, was that one of the EQCB board 8 Do you remember doing that?
9 members, in his deliberation said he does not consider sod 9 A I don't recall, but I'd be happy to send one today
10 fill. That's the only thing I recall. 10 reiterating that.
11 BY MR. ANGELL: 11 Q In fact, after the EQCB, you e-mailed Mr. Carney saying
12 Q Do you remember actual testimony from Mr. Carney that 12 that you were "very disappointed" with his testimony.
13 sod is fill? 13 A I told you that he fell victim to legal gymnastics by
14 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object to 14 Tom Robertson where he had already answered the question
15 relevance. 15 properly, and Tom tricked him into saying the opposite.
16 THE WITNESS: I probably said it myself, and I 16 Q Do you recall writing in that e-mail to Mr. Carney that
17 offered to pay to remove the 20 foot by 30 foot piece of sod 17 the obvious answer he should have given was that the area
18 on the corner of A and C, if they had a big issue with it. 18 denoted as E is not a wetland, and that sod should not be
19 BY MR. ANGELL: 19 considered illegal fill?
20 Q I'm sorry. Your recollection is that you testified 20 A I don't think I said that, unless you have a copy of
21 that you would be willing to remove the sod from the corner 21 it. I mean, I'd like to see it, and I will tell you if I did or
22 of -- 22 didn't.
23 A I don't know if I made the offer during the testimony, 23 Q Well, we may not get to it today, but you will see it.
24 but I made the offer to DERM, and I think I've said on the 24 Was Mr. Carney paid in full for his work done in 2013?
25 record that I would be happy to remove that. There's like a 20 25 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that question, as
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1 well as to all relevancy questions -- relevancy towards any 1 A I don't disagree with sod can be considered fill.
2 questions regarding payments made to Mr. Carney. 2 Q So, I'm not clear.
3 THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to answer the question 3 What do you believe that the lie or the confusion in
4 or not? 4 his testimony was?
5 BY MR. ANGELL: 5 A If you show me the transcripts I will read it to you
6 Q Yeah. 6 then I'll go ahead and explain it to you.
7 MR. LEARY: You can answer it. 7 Q I'm trying to find his testimony so it won't take you
8 THE WITNESS: He was paid for the vast majority of 8 as long.
9 the work he did. And the stuff he billed for the 9 A As long as it doesn't take you past 4:30 we're good.
10 preparation of the EQCB, there was payment withheld at the 10 Q When is the last time -- you've never read this
11 end for failure to perform his duties. 11 transcript, have you?
12 BY MR. ANGELL: 12 A Are you kidding me? Why would I read that? That's
13 Q What duties did he fail to perform? 13 Jeff's job.
14 A The one would we just discussed. Effectively he 14 MR. LEARY: It's at the bottom of one of the pages
15 represented himself as somebody that was competent to testify as 15 I'm sure.
16 an expert witness. 16 MR. ANGELL: He said he wants to find it. It
17 Q So, if I understand correctly, you withheld payment -- 17 starts here. It may take us longer.
18 well, partial payment of Mr. Carney because you disagreed with 18 MR. LEARY: You want him to look over all of
19 how he testified at the EQCB hearing? 19 Carney?
20 A No, because he lied inadvertently because he tripped up 20 MR. ANGELL: I want him to tell me where in Mr.
21 on the legal gymnastics of Tom Robertson, and effectively lied 21 Carney's transcript he believes Mr. Carney --
22 and buried me with that lie. 22 MR. LEARY: May I find it?
23 Q So, it's your position that Mr. Carney -- well, I'm 23 MR. ANGELL: -- was confused or lied.
24 just not clear. You are either saying Mr. Carney got confused, 24 Unfortunately you can't ask questions of your client.
25 and then said something in error, or he lied. 25 I would say, though, that -- here you go.
Page 195 Page 197
1 A Correct. One of the two. He didn't intentionally lie. 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Where am I supposed to start?
2 He got tripped up by Tom Robertson. Even though he had already 2 It was Carney being questioned by Robertson, right?
3 stated the opposite multiple times during the hearing, the one 3 BY MR. ANGELL:
4 time, at the end, that he got tripped up, he basically said: 4 Q I just started you at the very start of Mr. Carney's
5 Yes, if that is true, then this is true. And if that is true, 5 testimony.
6 this is true. The transitive properties of math were applied by 6 A You want me to read through all of this?
7 Robertson: But A doesn't equal C in that scenario. And he said 7 Q If you want me to bring you to that portion, I can do
8 it did because he didn't understand connecting the dots, and he 8 that.
9 effectively lied or got confused and said the opposite of what 9 A Here we go.
10 he said. And then, that one misrepresentation that he made, was 10 Q What page?
11 put in the final or the EQCB memorandum thing. 11 A I think we're on 169.
12 MR. LEARY: Drafted by Mr. Ricisak. 12 Yes, here it is.
13 MR. ANGELL: I'm sorry. Is that an objection? 13 (Whereupon, witness peruses documents.)
14 THE WITNESS: Drafted by Mr. Ricisak. 14 (Comments held off the record.)
15 MR. LEARY: It's part of one. 15 THE WITNESS: Instead of wasting another -- why
16 MR. ANGELL: Well, let's not. 16 don't we --
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I mean. So, he basically did 17 MR. ANGELL: We'll move on.
18 not perform his duties as an expert witness. An expert 18 THE WITNESS: Put this on the list for next time,
19 witness is not somebody that is easily tripped by an 19 and I will research it.
20 attorney to say the opposite of what the truth is, and 20 BY MR. ANGELL:
21 that's exactly what happened. 21 Q That's fine. Thank you.
22 BY MR. ANGELL: 22 By the way, the individual that dug THE test holes with
23 Q Well, his testimony was that sod can be considered 23 a backhoe on the southern boundary, that Steve Carney oversaw,
24 fill. That's part of his testimony. 24 was he related at all to your superintendent?
25 Do you disagree with that portion of his testimony? 25 A His son.
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1 Q Are you still in contact with him? 1 Q There you go.
2 A With whom? 2 A Hard one to remember. (305) 218-5577. He could give
3 Q The son, Mike? 3 you his son's number.
4 A No. I probably haven't spoken to him in four years, 4 Q So, back to Steve Carney, when you were talking about
5 five years. 5 Mr. Carney, which we talked briefly about, withholding some of
6 Q Did you speak to the former superintendent? 6 his payment because he held himself out as being an expert
7 A His father, yeah. 7 witness, and then didn't testify in that manner.
8 Q So, if I ask your lawyer, can you provide that kind of 8 A Well, in my view, he's not competent as an expert
9 information, if you still have it? 9 witness based on his performance.
10 A Yes, yes. No problem. 10 Q Do you believe he's an expert in the field of wetland
11 Q Also, earlier on Mr. Chapman, while he didn't do the 11 delineation?
12 septic service at your house, you said you met him a number of 12 A I believe he's an expert in his area, but I do not
13 times. 13 believe he's an expert witness.
14 Was it in relation to the property? 14 Q What's the difference?
15 A No, not a number of times. I've met him. I'm trying 15 A The difference is he just sits at home and write
16 to think where I met him. I don't actually recall where I met 16 reports after he figures the stuff out. He has no business
17 him. 17 testifying because he has problems focusing and following a
18 Q Did Joe Chapman ever have anything to do -- let me 18 logical path. He contradicts himself.
19 rephrase that. 19 Q Did you retain Steve Carney for Steve Carney to produce
20 Was he ever on your property during the construction of 20 a specific result that you wanted produced?
21 it? 21 A We retained Steve Carney because he was very competent
22 A Yeah, I believe he provided a bid to the general 22 back in 2002 and 2003. I had no reason to believe he wasn't
23 contractor, and I think that's probably when I met him, but I 23 competent, and I didn't really work with him that much. My
24 never selected him because he was too expensive. 24 attorney did. And then, actually the first time all he did was
25 Q Did he ever go on your property in order to prepare 25 a report and some field work back in the early 2000's.
Page 199 Page 201

1 that bid? 1 So, I had never seen him before doing expert testimony.
2 A To do what? 2 And he claimed that he was -- that was one of his services as an
3 Q Did Joe Chapman ever go on your property to prepare 3 expert witness for testimony purposes. Some people are good at
4 that bid, if you know? 4 it. Some people are not. In my opinion, he's not competent as
5 A I'm sure he would have had to, yeah. 5 an expert witness.
6 Q Other than just meeting with him, do you remember any 6 Q We keep -- maybe I'm confusing terms. You keep using
7 substantive conversations you had with Joe Chapman? 7 "expert witness," but isn't Steve Carney an expert who was a
8 A Not really. 8 witness?
9 Q And Joe Mora, the superintendent Joe Mora that you 9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
10 hired, do you still have his contact information? 10 THE WITNESS: If I could talk you into admitting
11 A Let me see. Yeah, actually I have two listings with a 11 that your tie is red and not purple in a court of law as an
12 bunch of numbers if you want them. 12 expert, you, being called as an expert witness in ties,
13 Q Sure. Let me have them. 13 would you consider yourself an expert witness?
14 A I've got (305) 763-2562. I've got (305) 772-4542, and 14 BY MR. ANGELL:
15 I have (786) 970-3797. Let me see if the other one is the same. 15 Q So, is it your belief that either Steve Carney was
16 No. And the other one, I think he went to Texas, or something, 16 unable to follow a string of questions, or to give a true and
17 for work for a while. That number looks like (832) 267-0185. 17 accurate answer?
18 Q What name goes with that number? 18 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
19 A Joe Mora. 19 THE WITNESS: Correct, yes.
20 Q Oh, that's also another number for Joe Mora? 20 BY MR. ANGELL:
21 A Yeah, that's another number I have on him. 21 Q But you've subpoenaed Steve Carney to come back to the
22 Q In the same phone do you have the numbers for Mike, or 22 EQCB for --
23 his father, the other superintendent? 23 A I didn't, my attorney did.
24 A Yeah, it's Armando Evora. His company, by the way, is 24 Q -- to discuss --
25 called Evora Investments. 25 A I did not. My attorney did.
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1 Q Have you ever spoken to Steve Carney since 2013? 1 BY MR. ANGELL:
2 A I saw him at the bottom, in the lobby of the DERM 2 Q Mr. Schael said -- I'm sorry. Mr. Schael testified
3 building during what was supposed to be our EQCB hearing weeks 3 that terms in that report were your lawyer's terms and not his.
4 ago, and just said hello to him, and that was it. 4 A Well --
5 Q Have you ever seen Rainer Schael testify? 5 Q And Mr. Schael testified that a soil sample summary in
6 A No. 6 the report was authored by your attorney, and not by Mr. Schael.
7 Q Do you have reason to question Rainer Schael's ability 7 MR. LEARY: Object to form of that question. That
8 to testify as an expert witness? 8 is inaccurate.
9 A No. 9 BY MR. ANGELL:
10 Q When you hired Rainer Schael, did you hire Rainer 10 Q And my question is: Did you retain Mr. Schael to do an
11 Schael to produce a specific result? 11 independent assessment of your property?
12 A He was hired to do the analysis that we were required, 12 A I think what you need to understand...and that you're
13 just like every other environmental expert I've ever hired. 13 missing completely from a context point of view, or
14 Q Was he hired to give an independent analysis? 14 intentionally misdirecting...is the fact that most of the time
15 A I didn't hire him. Ask my attorney. He was hired to 15 when people that have enforcement actions are required to get
16 do the report that was ordered by the court. 16 independent reports done, they hire an attorney and then they
17 Q The court order required a competent...let me get the 17 hire an expert. And the expert will go off, do his report, ask
18 language right; I don't want to tell you the wrong thing. 18 questions of people that are most knowledgeable on the subject
19 The court order required you to retain an appropriate 19 matter, which very often involves the homeowner. Okay. So, it
20 and competent professional consultant to assess the degree and 20 is normal for an expert to have questions for me, and interview
21 extent of each of the violations found to exist by the EQCB. 21 me as part of the process. So, the homeowner, particularly
22 That was what he was supposed to do. 22 knowledgeable about the subject, and it makes perfect sense.
23 As you sit here, do you understand that to have been 23 It is not normal for an expert to do that with an
24 the scope of work that he was given to do? 24 attorney in most cases. In this particular case...unlike
25 MR. LEARY: I object to the form. 25 probably any other case that DERM has ever gone to court on...
Page 203 Page 205

1 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat that statement? 1 the person who the enforcement -- whose action has been taken
2 MR. LEARY: Object to relevance. 2 against has a full-time attorney that works for him
3 BY MR. ANGELL: 3 specifically, not exclusively, but specifically for this case.
4 Q He was told to -- I'm sorry. The Court order requires 4 The amount of research he has done and the amount of
5 you to retain appropriate and competent professional consultants 5 knowledge that he has is far greater than any attorney
6 to assess the degree and extent of each of the violations found 6 representing any of their other enforcement action targets.
7 to exist by the EQCB. 7 He's going to have far greater knowledge.
8 Is it your understanding that that was the scope of 8 And I, effectively, over the years, have transferred my
9 work that Rainer Schael was given to do? 9 knowledge base to my attorney's knowledge base; and, therefore,
10 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of the question. 10 it is logical for the expert to be able to sit down with the
11 THE WITNESS: Of course. What else would he do? 11 attorney, instead of the property owner, to do the interview and
12 BY MR. ANGELL: 12 conduct questions, and find out the information that's relevant
13 Q Was he supposed to do an independent assessment of the 13 and necessary to complete a report.
14 property? 14 Q Well, your attorney coauthored the report with Mr.
15 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. Object to 15 Schael. It's different than asking him questions.
16 relevance. 16 A Listen, that's a characterization I have not heard from
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by 17 my attorney, that he coauthored the report.
18 "independent." 18 Q You said that your lawyer has a fast factual
19 BY MR. ANGELL: 19 understanding of the property, is that correct?
20 Q Well, Mr. Schael testified that he considered your 20 A Yes.
21 lawyer to be part of the team. He testified that your lawyer 21 Q And he has a fast factual understanding --
22 and him sat in a room together, side by side, hours on end where 22 A What do you mean by "fast factual?"
23 they drafted a report back and forth. Mr. Carney said that his 23 Q Well, you said he has a greater factual understanding
24 report was "attorney work." 24 than you do.
25 MR. LEARY: Object to the form of that. 25 A No.
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1 Q Isn't that right? 1 THE WITNESS: I may have change typographical,
2 A That's not what I said. 2 because I'm very anal. I do that with his legal filings as
3 Q I may have misunderstand. Go ahead. 3 well. When I have time I'll take a look, and I'll say:
4 A What I said is, as compared to every other homeowner 4 Jeff, let me see this. I'm very particular on sentence
5 against whom they take enforcement action that has hired an 5 structure and paragraph structure. So, yes, I like to edit.
6 attorney, I have an attorney that works full-time. He spends as 6 It's one of the things I do.
7 many as 40, 50, 60 hours a week, whether there's court 7 BY MR. ANGELL:
8 proceedings that he needs to address, or not, researching 8 Q This morning I asked you, and you didn't edit Rainer's
9 things, public records, state and county historical documents, 9 report?
10 100 times more work than an attorney who's hired out of a law 10 A I don't remember editing Rainer's report. I'm telling
11 firm on retainer for a particular project is going to do on a 11 you that I do his, and if I saw something in anybody's report,
12 case. Therefore, he has far more knowledge than a typical 12 or writing, or submission that's going to go on record, that has
13 attorney. I have transferred 95% of my knowledge base, of what 13 incorrect sentence structure or paragraph structure, or is
14 has gone on, on that property, with respect to mangroves and 14 factually incorrect, of course, I'm going to...
15 wetland issues over the years, to him. 15 Q Do you remember e-mailing Rainer Schael a line out of a
16 So, he is the logical person to be providing the 16 copy of his report on your e-mail?
17 interview, as you call it, or as I call it, the question and 17 A No, I do not.
18 answer session with the expert. 18 Q You said Mr. Leary works full-time for you.
19 So, it may not be normal for them to have that 19 Is he also the lawyer for Eyecast?
20 relationship between the attorney and the expert, but it makes 20 A Yes, he does legal work for my personal business, my
21 absolutely perfect sense in this case. And there's nothing 21 business' businesses, and Miami Citizens For Property Rights,
22 inappropriate about it, which is what you are implying. 22 which we do free legal services for people that get screwed over
23 Q What I'm asking is if Mr. Schael was hired do an 23 by Miami-Dade County, or other government agencies.
24 independent report? Meaning was Mr. Schael hired to gather 24 Q When you talk about free legal services through
25 facts and do an assessment that he believes was appropriate 25 Miami-Dade Citizens For Property Rights, is Miami-Dade Citizens
Page 207 Page 209

1 under the rules that govern a wetland delineation. And, then 1 For Property Rights providing free legal services to April
2 based upon that, write an independent report of his own thought 2 Burch?
3 process? 3 A You'd have to consult with Jeff Leary. I don't know
4 A You haven't been paying attention to what I've been 4 what the arrangement is between him and her.
5 saying. 5 Q But you are the president of that non-profit
6 Q No, I have. 6 organization, correct?
7 A No, you haven't because, if you did, you'd realize that 7 A I do not actively manage anything day-to-day with that.
8 I have no way of answering that question because I'm not the one 8 Jeff does 100% of that.
9 that contracted or communicated the requirements with Rainer 9 Q Your picture is on your website?
10 Schael. Jeff Leery did, my attorney did. I did not. 10 A Yes, I founded it.
11 All of the information that I have, for all intents and 11 Q Yeah. And you're also listed as the president in every
12 purposes, has been transferred to him. I do not get engaged 12 year's filing?
13 with day-to-day things that are involved with this case. That 13 A Chris, let me make it clear. What I spend most of my
14 is his job. He is full-time. Okay? 14 time everyday doing is running my technology company. If I had
15 So, his communication with Rainer is a substitute for 15 time to do the vice-mayor's job for Palmetto Bay, running a
16 my communication. I still have to answer a few questions 16 technology company which I'm very hands-on with, getting
17 because it may be 95% instead of 100. I have no way of knowing. 17 involved with day-to-day activities of providing free legal
18 I have not seen an agreement. I never signed an agreement with 18 services to people, more than a handful of people, getting
19 Rainer. That was an agreement made between my attorney...and I 19 involved with the nitty-gritty of this case that's been going on
20 don't know how much of it is written and how much of it was 20 for years with your environmental agency, and all the
21 verbally communicated between my attorney and the expert, but I 21 non-profits I'm involved with, do you really think that I would
22 don't get involved, so I just don't know. 22 be able to do all these things? It's just you need to
23 Q Well, except you did edit Rainer Schael's report, 23 understand I don't get involved. And I can't answer a lot of
24 correct? 24 these questions because, quite frankly, I have no recollection
25 MR. LEARY: Object to form. 25 or I don't get involved with the details. So, I'm just not
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1 aware of these things. 1 with Mr. Carney's findings as Mr. Carney suggested be done?
2 Q Are you aware of any of the people that Miami-Dade 2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form.
3 Citizens For Property Rights represents? 3 THE WITNESS: I would not have been the one to do
4 MR. LEARY: I'm going to object to that question 4 the asking.
5 and direct you not to answer. It's not relevant. It's not 5 BY MR. ANGELL:
6 relevant. There's just no reason. 6 Q Do you know if anybody did so at your direction?
7 BY MR. ANGELL: 7 A I don't remember. The architects probably were
8 Q Well, it's certainly relevant as to April Burch, 8 supposed to do it, I think. I don't know.
9 because she's been called to testify on your behalf. And that 9 Q Following the EQCB hearing in 2013 Mr. Carney sent an
10 could be seen as you giving her benefits because you're biased. 10 e-mail...which I will mark as Exhibit 5...which has a mockup
11 So, do you know if April Burch has ever been 11 graphic depicting two areas of potential mitigation.
12 represented by your organization? 12 A Okay.
13 A Quite frankly, I don't know whether Jeff has an 13 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's
14 engagement agreement through Miami-Dade Citizens For Property 14 Exhibit No. 5 for identification to the deposition.)
15 rights personally, or what his arrangement is with April. I 15 BY MR. ANGELL:
16 really don't know. I've never seen it. I never asked him. 16 Q Do you remember receiving that?
17 BY MR. ANGELL: 17 MR. LEARY: Do you remember seeing it?
18 Q Do you know if April Burch is represented by your 18 THE WITNESS: What? This?
19 Miami-Dade Citizens for Property Rights -- 19 MR. LEARY: Yeah.
20 A I do not. 20 THE WITNESS: This looks familiar but I can tell
21 Q Let me finish -- in her lawsuits against the Village of 21 you -- as I've tried to --
22 Palmetto Bay? 22 MR. LEARY: I object to that. This is not being
23 A I do not know that either. 23 sent to Mr. Dubois. I object to the form of that question.
24 Q Do you know if Jose Fernandez was represented by 24 BY MR. ANGELL:
25 Miami-Dade Citizens For Property Rights in his criminal case? 25 Q Do you remember seeing this e-mail?
Page 211 Page 213

1 A I don't know. 1 A The e-mail was from me to Jeff, to my attorney. It's
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the relevance, standing 2 from me to Jeff, possible restoration areas, from Carney to my
3 objection to relevance. 3 other attorney Lucas.
4 BY MR. ANGELL: 4 Q Carney is in that e-mail chain, correct?
5 Q Carney's 2000 (sic) report states at the end that: "It 5 A Yes, from Carney saying "J&J..." which is John and
6 is recommended that concurrence with the regulating agencies 6 John, which is Lucas and me... "just had to do this. See that
7 based on this report be obtained prior to proceeding with the 7 attached mockup graphic. The two areas of discussion for
8 site work." 8 restoration, each are a little more than 5000 square feet or
9 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 9 11,000 square feet total. No matter how they cut it, they
10 BY MR. ANGELL: 10 wouldn't/shouldn't get about 15,000 square feet. Hopefully the
11 Q Are you aware it says that? 11 judge will have some luck tomorrow."
12 A Please say that again with the dates. 12 I don't know what that means.
13 Q Sure. Mr. Carney's 2002 report -- 13 Q My only question is: Did you ever request Mr. Carney
14 A Yeah. 14 to do that diagram, or did he do that on his own?
15 Q -- says that: "It is recommended that concurrence with 15 A Well, there's a third, more likely scenario.
16 regulating agencies based on this report be obtained prior to 16 Q Okay.
17 proceeding with site work." 17 A If I didn't...and I wouldn't have, because I don't do
18 A Okay. 18 this sort of thing...he either did it on his own, or he was
19 Q Are you aware it said that? 19 directed to do so by John Lucas, my attorney. But, as I recall,
20 A How would I know? 20 Carney just created a lot of stuff himself. I don't know
21 Q Well, the report was given to you. 21 whether he was asked to do this, or not, by my other attorney.
22 A When? In 2000... 22 I really don't know.
23 Q In 2002. 23 Anything else on this exhibit?
24 A You think I remember what was said to me in 2002? 24 Q Thank you. In 2013, prior to the EQCB hearing in 2013,
25 Q Did you ask any regulating agency if they concurred 25 do you know how many times Carney was on your property in the
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1 year 2013 before the EQCB? 1 Q In the lower right-hand corner there's a number of
2 MR. LEARY: Object to the form, asked and answered 2 dates where that survey has been originated, and then it's been
3 numerous times. 3 modified, correct?
4 THE WITNESS: Before the EQCB hearing he was there 4 A Yeah.
5 a lot. 5 Q And then the other corner, the left-hand corner,
6 BY MR. ANGELL: 6 there's a date of certification to you. It's a little cut off.
7 Q I don't know what "a lot" is? 7 A Okay.
8 A I don't either. 8 Q When was this given to you?
9 Q Is "a lot" five times? Ten times? 9 A I need stronger glasses.
10 A I would say certainly more than five. He could have 10 Q I'm sorry. Okay. I believe the date is August 15th,
11 been more than ten. And there could have been visits when I 11 2002.
12 wasn't there. I don't know. I think I gave him the gate code, 12 A Yeah, that's what it looks like, yeah.
13 so he probably popped in whenever he wanted, because it didn't 13 Q Do you know if that document was shown to Rainer Schael
14 require him to come inside the house. 14 when Mr. Schael was working to write the report in this case?
15 Q Do you know what he was doing during each of those 15 A I can only assume that it was.
16 visits? 16 Q And on Exhibit 6, is a meander line depicted in Exhibit
17 A Well, I mean, I know he was doing some work, and he was 17 6?
18 generating billing hours -- 18 A I don't know. I don't read these things. A meander
19 Q Do you know -- 19 line?
20 A -- like you attorneys do. 20 Q Yes. Do you see anything labeled "meander line" in
21 Q Do you know what the work part of that was? 21 there?
22 A Like I said, I wasn't directing him; John Lucas was. 22 A I see in that area mean high water, approximate
23 Q Okay. So, you weren't part of whatever was happening? 23 location of flood zone boundary, upland area lost by avulsion
24 A I am so busy everyday that I just try to minimize. And 24 after Hurricane Andrew.
25 the problem is if I try to parachute in on a particular issue, 25 No.
Page 215 Page 217

1 and he's got this many issues, and I'm jumping in on one issue, 1 Q Let me ask you this: You stated that you saw an area
2 I have to get involved with all the issues to fully understand, 2 that says "mean high water line."?
3 and I just don't have time. I just don't get involved with this 3 A Flood zone...yeah, it was here somewhere, mean high
4 stuff. 4 water line.
5 Q I'm trying to -- I know we don't have much time left, 5 Q Have you ever --
6 and I'm trying not to go into an area that will take us over. 6 A Right here, (indicating).
7 So, I want to pull out some stuff to see if I there's... 7 Q Have you ever seen an overlay of the mean high water
8 I brought a big diagram. This is going to be 5, or 6. 8 line as depicted on Exhibit 6 with a line indicated as
9 This is going to be 6. 9 jurisdictional wetland boundary on Exhibit 4? Has anybody ever
10 MR. LEARY: This is No. 6. 10 shown you an overlay of these two lines to see if they match up?
11 MR. ANGELL: Yeah, Exhibit 6. 11 A No, but what it appears to me -- I'm obviously not an
12 MR. LEARY: Which one is this one? 12 expert on reading surveys. It looks to me like the mean high
13 MR. ANGELL: This is the Walberg 1992 survey. 13 water line is right at the edge of the property where the edge
14 MR. LEARY: That could be more than one. 14 of the mangroves are. But they don't show mangroves on this
15 MR. ANGELL: That's true. 15 picture, so I don't know.
16 THE WITNESS: There's multiple exhibit numbers on 16 Q You indicated two areas on Exhibit 6 that state lost by
17 it, too. 17 avulsion.
18 (Whereupon, document was marked as Plaintiff's 18 Do you know if areas that are lost to avulsion have to
19 Exhibit No. 6 for identification to the deposition.) 19 be claimed under state law?
20 BY MR. ANGELL: 20 A Well, this is the area that Mr. Kunde testified that he
21 Q Okay. Are you familiar with Exhibit 6? 21 had filled right after Andrew, so I assume it was filled.
22 A Yeah, that one looks familiar. 22 Q How about on the southern boundary area? Do you know
23 Q How do you recognize Exhibit 6? 23 if that area also indicates lost to avulsion, do you know if
24 A Because this looks like the original survey I was given 24 that area has to be claimed as lost to avulsion under state law
25 when I was buying the property. 25 in order to be filled?
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1 MR. LEARY: Object to the form. 1 highlighter? I mean, something was highlighted in yellow. If
2 THE WITNESS: But it doesn't say that here. 2 you were aware that --
3 BY MR. ANGELL: 3 MR. LEARY: That is also not correct, so I'm going
4 Q Do you believe that the area of the southern boundary 4 to object to the form of that question.
5 was lost to avulsion? 5 THE WITNESS: My understanding, from what I was
6 MR. LEARY: Object to form. Object to relevance. 6 told, is that that wasn't the case.
7 THE WITNESS: How am I supposed to know? 7 BY MR. ANGELL:
8 BY MR. ANGELL: 8 Q And now, have you ever seen any documentation that was
9 Q I'm asking if you know. I take it you don't know? 9 filed or submitted to the state in order to claim...by the
10 A All I know is that he sent some letter to the state 10 Walbergs...in order to claim that any part of the property was
11 talking about this area here (indicating), that Kunde said he 11 lost to avulsion. I would have no reason to because -- I'd have
12 had filled after Andrew, and gave -- "he" being John Ricisak 12 no reason to?
13 sent a letter with some kind of modification to an official 13 MR. ANGELL: And it's 4:30.
14 document that they ruled that that was submerged land that was 14 THE WITNESS: All right.
15 not filled in effectively state land. And then he had sent a 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are off the record. The time
16 clean document, and then they reversed their opinion as to 16 is 4:30 p.m.
17 whether that was submerged land. And they came back and said it 17 (Whereupon, the deposition was adjourned at 4:30
18 was my submerged property, or something to that effect. That's 18 p.m.)
19 all I know about this submerged land area that we're talking 19
20 about. 20
21 Q Well, first, the modification to the document that you 21
22 are speaking of, did you ever see the original document that you 22
23 claim was modified? 23
24 A I didn't see any of it. 24
25 Q So, you only heard this from other people that the 25
Page 219 Page 221

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
1 document was modified? 2
2 A Not other people, my attorney. 3 STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF MIAMI-DADE
3 Q I don't want to know what your attorney told you. I 4
4 don't want to know anything your attorney told you. 5
I, Teresa H. Miranda, Florida Professional Reporter and
5 MR. LEARY: I object to that as privileged. 6 Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at large, do
6 BY MR. ANGELL: hereby certify that John Dubois was by me first duly sworn to
7 testify the whole truth; that I was authorized to and did report
7 Q I'm not asking what your attorney told you. said deposition in stenotype; and that the foregoing pages,
8 A Okay. 8 numbered from 1 to 222, inclusive, are a true and correct
transcription of my shorthand notes of said deposition.
9 Q But you've seen never the original document? 9
I further certify that said deposition was taken at the time
10 A The original document of what? 10 and place hereinabove set forth and that the taking of said
11 Q There's a claim the document was modified. deposition was commenced and completed as hereinabove set out.
11
12 You've never seen the original document? I further certify that I am not an attorney or counsel of
13 A Correct. 12 any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel of party connected with the action, nor am I
14 Q Are you aware that the modification was with a yellow 13 financially interested in the action.
15 highlighter? 14 The foregoing certification of this transcript does not
apply to any reproduction of the same by any means unless under
16 A I have no way of knowing what the modification was. 15 the direct control and/or direction of the certifying reporter.
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this 28th
17 All I know is that I was told by someone that -- day of August, 2016.
18 Q I don't want to know what your attorney told you. 17
18
19 MR. LEARY: I'm going to direct you not to answer 19
20 that question. 20
21
21 BY MR. ANGELL: <%Signature%>
22 Q I don't want to know anything he told you. I'm only 22 _____________________
Teresa H. Miranda
23 asking if you were aware that -- 23 Commission No. EE 223777
24 A I haven't seen anything. My commission Expires:
24 May 09, 2019
25 Q -- the alleged alteration was with a yellow 25
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& 180:10 14th 153:13 211:5,22 32:22 33:15 114:7
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03 184:23 169 197:11 16:18,20,23 17:25 2013 170:18,24
05 160:11,14 162:4 169th 49:19 18:1 111:11,15,18 185:24,25 186:10
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152:15 189:8 221:8 1990 10:1 11:16 2003 15:7,10 16:16 218-5577 200:2
10 15:23 72:21 1992 2:22 109:24 16:18 17:2 18:1 222 221:8
161:17,22 110:3 111:1,19 61:22 63:15,15 223777 221:23
100 55:18 59:10 166:9 215:13 75:16,17 159:24 24 1:4 100:20 122:9
66:11 99:17 111:24 1996 10:4 82:13 161:16 192:23 122:23 130:1
139:5 206:10 1997 11:23 12:17 200:22 24th 43:2
207:17 209:8 12:25 14:4,6 2003/2004 160:8 26 122:10
100,000 138:14 1998 109:14 2005 122:12 154:4 260 178:3
1000 122:5 137:14 1999 117:23,25 154:9,9 155:10 267-0185 199:17
101 2:19 118:3 119:11 160:1,9 161:17 280 178:3
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2 2:20 42:1 130:4,6 3 2:16,20 42:1
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20 127:6 191:17,25 190:12,23
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3rd 189:5 8360 30:10 acquire 43:1 34:12,16 206:8
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6 2:22 125:11,23 101:20 137:7 142:5
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60 206:7 access 24:6 168:15
66 99:18 107:24 191:12 affiliated 58:11
185:22 add 104:21 138:17 157:15
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23:12 82:9 130:12 aircraft 112:20 angell 2:3 3:9 4:16 146:13 147:1,25
156:12 113:9 116:5 119:10 4:19,19,23 17:24 148:11,24 151:21
afternoon 6:20 airplane 112:10 20:14 27:16 28:18 152:9 153:5 154:24
agencies 94:18 113:11,13 115:7 30:17 35:6 38:17 158:8,17 162:13
208:23 211:6,16 116:17,17 118:21 41:13 42:20 44:4 166:18,25 167:5
agency 35:23,24 airplanes 113:4,11 44:13,18 45:2,19 168:8 169:4 170:23
68:12 88:14 98:1 136:25 45:23 46:17 47:8 175:20 178:10
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136:14 137:18,21 alan 49:7 59:11 60:12,15,17 182:25 184:5,21
139:8 146:4,14,15 alive 52:24 63:24 64:9,17 185:3,10 186:6,18
157:8 209:20 alleged 89:19 154:3 65:18 66:2 69:22 187:2,15,22 188:15
211:25 219:25 71:8 72:6,10,25 188:23 189:11
agent 53:13,14,15 allow 113:15 73:8 74:6,14,20 190:1,21 191:4,11
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110:25 112:3 115:4 111:20 122:17 88:24 90:3,13,18 196:16,20,23 197:3
agents 136:4 157:21 91:20 92:5,14,16 197:17,20 201:14
aggregate 97:24 allows 95:2 93:1,14 94:1,7 201:20 203:3,12,19
aggregated 71:5 alter 100:11 95:22 96:11,18 204:1,9 208:7
aggressive 109:7 alteration 127:19 97:15,25 98:10,20 210:7,17 211:4,10
ago 4:10 22:8,24 219:25 99:6,14,23 100:5 212:5,15,24 214:6
25:24 34:15 40:6 altered 59:6 100:14,22,25 101:4 215:11,13,15,20
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agree 82:17,20,22 amended 134:19 109:23 110:24 animal 144:18
97:5 102:12 103:1 148:1 112:2,13,23 117:17 animals 179:9
agreeable 6:14 american 26:7,9,14 118:8,22 119:6,8 animosity 135:25
agreement 63:8 amount 22:4 55:23 120:16 122:4 ann 49:7
98:7 102:13,18,23 156:6 174:9 205:4 123:18 124:6,16,25 annoying 189:25
113:15 115:3 137:2 205:4 125:10,16,21 126:6 190:2
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171:11 207:18,18 analysis 184:10,11 128:5,20 130:7,10 6:9 7:12,13 8:2,2,4
207:19 210:14 188:6 202:12,14 130:12,13 131:12 17:22 18:24 20:24
agreements 103:2 andrew 55:24 56:1 132:7 133:5,10,23 20:25 24:16 36:1
ahead 14:2 79:23 56:11,13 109:24 134:13,18 138:4,9 36:18 47:10 48:16
88:17 134:5 165:25 110:13,17,23 111:4 139:14 140:22,25 50:10 54:13 63:16
196:6 206:3 111:8,25 216:24 141:5,13,22 142:7 74:4 75:7 88:4,19
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207:8 98:9 106:13 134:1 68:10,19,23 165:18 213:2,7 217:16,18
answers 5:6,10,13 apply 76:2 88:22 173:20 183:12 arguing 188:7
5:15 150:16 100:8 103:13 212:7 armando 160:24
anticipate 7:9 106:21 127:22 architectural 68:24 161:8 199:24
anybody 5:19 152:14 157:18 70:4,6 arrangement 209:4
16:24 17:3,7 32:15 221:14 architecture 97:19 210:15
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FLORIDA RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE
Rule 1.310
(e) Witness Review. If the testimony is
transcribed, the transcript shall be furnished to
the witness for examination and shall be read to or
by the witness unless the examination and reading
are waived by the witness and by the parties. Any
changes in form or substance that the witness wants
to make shall be listed in writing by the officer
with a statement of the reasons given by the
witness for making the changes. The changes shall
be attached to the transcript. It shall then be
signed by the witness unless the parties waived the
signing or the witness is ill, cannot be found, or
refuses to sign. If the transcript is not signed by
the witness within a reasonable time after it is
furnished to the witness, the officer shall sign
the transcript and state on the transcript the
waiver, illness, absence of the witness, or refusal
to sign with any reasons given therefor. The
deposition may then be used as fully as though
signed unless the court holds that the reasons
given for the refusal to sign require rejection of

the deposition wholly or partly, on motion under
rule 1.330(d)(4).
DISCLAIMER: THE FOREGOING CIVIL PROCEDURE RULES
ARE PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY.
THE ABOVE RULES ARE CURRENT AS OF SEPTEMBER 1,
2014. PLEASE REFER TO THE APPLICABLE STATE RULES
OF CIVIL PROCEDURE FOR UP-TO-DATE INFORMATION.

VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
COMPANY CERTIFICATE AND DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
Veritext Legal Solutions represents that the

foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete
transcript of the colloquies, questions and answers
as submitted by the court reporter. Veritext Legal
Solutions further represents that the attached
exhibits, if any, are true, correct and complete
documents as submitted by the court reporter and/or
attorneys in relation to this deposition and that
the documents were processed in accordance with
our litigation support and production standards.
Veritext Legal Solutions is committed to maintaining

the confidentiality of client and witness information,
in accordance with the regulations promulgated under
the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability
Act (HIPAA), as amended with respect to protected
health information and the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, as
amended, with respect to Personally Identifiable
Information (PII). Physical transcripts and exhibits
are managed under strict facility and personnel access
controls. Electronic files of documents are stored
in encrypted form and are transmitted in an encrypted
fashion to authenticated parties who are permitted to
access the material. Our data is hosted in a Tier 4
SSAE 16 certified facility.
Veritext Legal Solutions complies with all federal and

State regulations with respect to the provision of
court reporting services, and maintains its neutrality
and independence regardless of relationship or the
financial outcome of any litigation. Veritext requires
adherence to the foregoing professional and ethical
standards from all of its subcontractors in their
independent contractor agreements.
Inquiries about Veritext Legal Solutions'

confidentiality and security policies and practices
should be directed to Veritext's Client Services
Associates indicated on the cover of this document or
at www.veritext.com.

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Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

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& 13th 184:22 137:14 161:16 2009 31:24 32:2,18

178:25 191:17 7 accidents 116:23 added 166:16

Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

affirmative 14:5 air 77:11 94:11 angel 7:23 144:4 145:6,9,17

Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

108:23 124:7 appeared 118:1 arbitrary 174:14 216:22,23 217:1,20

Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company

Dynamic Reporting - A Veritext Company