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4.1 idesperatelytrytoevaluatinghysteresislossincomsolway.thereareafew
Materialsandfunctions
4.0a commonlyusedformulas.
4.0
3.5a ithink,theeasiestistomeasuretheareaenclosedbythehysteresisloopina
cycleAhyst
Listalldiscussions
Ph=f*integral[H*dB]>buthowaboutsekundareLoop?seethe
attachment(hysteresisonthestatortooth)

therearetwomostcommonmodelsJilesAtherton(JA)andPreisachmodel
(PM)

touseJAparametersalpha,M,a,kandcshouldbeidentifiedforexamplebei
conductanexperiment

PMismathematicalmodelofhystereses(verymathematic).ihavedifficulty
tounderstanditandimplementitincomsol.

SteinmetzModel(SM)

Phy/V=k*f^alpha*B^

thisSMismoreforpureperiodichflux.kandcanbecalculateusingPM.
seeBcurve(greenline)

IhavenonlinHBCurveoftheSoftiron.

Whatisthebest(accuracy,simple)waytoevaluatehysteresisloss?

thankyouinadvance!

regards
akmal
Attachments:hysteresis7807.jpgBcurve7810.jpg

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June7,201111:58amUTCinresponsetoAkmal

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

Akmal HiAll,

igotthecurveofoneperiodeofmagnetizinginBvsH.

TheBHAreacouldbecaculatedinprimitivway.comsolhasrmm.Wm
calculated.byusingphotoshopicanevaluatetherelation(c=Ahyst/Amax)
betweenclosedloopareaandthemaximalareaofB*H(insteadofrmm.Wm).

Whyst[J/m]=c*Wmax

Physt[W]=Whys*freq*Volume

anycommentsarewelcome.

regards
akmal

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June8,201110:19pmUTCinresponsetoAkmal

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

FlorisvanKempen HiAkmal,

Idonotknowalotabouthysteresismodels,butwouldn'titbepossibleto
determinethethehysteresislossesbyfirstdoingananalysisusingamaterial
modelwithouthysteresis,forinstancebyusingaconstantmur.Andthen
usingamaterialmodelthatusestheHBcurveanddoesmodelhysteresis.

Ifyouusethecoilcurrentandthecoilvoltagetocalculatetheelectricalpower
inbothcasesthedifferencebetweentheanalysesshouldbethehysteresis
losses,right?

Regards,
Floris

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June22,20114:16amUTCinresponsetoFlorisvanKempen

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

DanielHarburg Akmal,

Iamalsoveryinterestedinmodelinghysteresislossesinmagneticmaterials.I
hadreadthatmanypeoplehavesuccessfullyimplementedthePreisachmodel
inCOMSOL,forexample,theymentionitinthispaper:

www.comsol.com/papers/2604/download/Sergeant.pdf

Ialsoamhavingtroubleunderstandinghowtomodelhysteresislossesinthe
simplestmannerpossble.
Anyhelpismuchappreciated!

Thanks,
Daniel

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June27,20119:40amUTCinresponsetoDanielHarburg

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

Akmal HiAll,

thxforyoursuggestion.havealsoconsiderseparatemodellonlytoevaluate
hysteresisloss.BandHcurveonstatortoothcanbeappliedinmodelalso.i'll
trytosharethemodellonlyforhysteresislossessoon.

"Ifyouusethecoilcurrentandthecoilvoltagetocalculatetheelectrical
powerinbothcasesthedifferencebetweentheanalysesshouldbethe
hysteresislosses,right?"
No,thedifferenceisnotonlyhysteresislossbutalsoeddycurrentloss
(inducedcurrentinthesoftiron).

ToDanielHarburg,tellmeaboutyourmodel.itisarotatingmachineor
somethingelse?

regards
akmal

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June27,20114:33pmUTCinresponsetoAkmal

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor
DanielHarburg Akmal,

Thanksforthereply.Iamtryingtomodelhysteresislossesinalaminated
magneticmateriallayerswhichareseparatedbyepoxy.Ihaveattachedthe
modelthatIhavebuiltsofar.Thismodelisofasmallsectionofatoroidal
inductor,sotherearecopperturnsbothaboveandbelowthemagnetic
material.Wearetryingtolookateddycurrentandhysteresislossesinthe
magneticlayers(whichrightnowIammodelingjustassoftiron).

IhaveimplementedtheBHcurveinmymodel,butthatdoesnotproduceany
hysteresislosssincethereisnocoercivityinformationfortheBHcurve(orno
BHloopwithalossyarea).

Iwouldbeveryinterestedtoseeyourmodelwhichmodelshysteresisloss
becauseIdon'tunderstandhowIcanmodelthistypeoflossforthismodel.
DoIneedtousetherealandimaginarypartsofpermeability,oristhere
anotherway?

Thanksforallthehelp.

Daniel

Attachments:laminationswithBHcurve8239.mph

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July8,201110:49amUTCinresponsetoDanielHarburg

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

Akmal HiDaniel,

attachedishysteresismodelusingJilesAthertonMethodJAM.

regards
akmal

Attachments:hysteresis_example8419.mph

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October16,20118:42amUTCinresponsetoAkmal

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

PatrickGoes HiAkmal,
Thanksforpostingyourmodel.Idon'tunderstandtheexpressionfordMirrdt
though.Couldyouexplainitorgiveareference?
Thankyou!
Patrick
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October19,201110:35amUTCinresponsetoPatrickGoes

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

PatrickGoes HiAkmal,

Don'tbother.IfoundA.J.Bergquist,IEEEtrans.ofMagnetics,vol32.No5
1996,thatexplainsit.

Thanksagainforyourinstructivemodel.

Patrick

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November3,20117:38amUTCinresponsetoPatrickGoes

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

PhanVanTung HiPatrick,
Canyousharethatpaper?Ialsoneedtostudythis.

Tung

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December16,20117:05pmUTCinresponsetoPhanVanTung

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

TrevorMunroe HelloTung,
TherearelotsofavailabledocumentsonthewebthatcovertheJilesAtherton
Model.ButoneofthebetterpapersisAnInverseJilesAthertonModelto
takeintoAccountHysteresisinTimeSteppingFiniteElementCalculations
byN.Sadowski,et.Al.,IEEETransactionsonMagnetics,Vol.38,No.2,
March2002.Withthisdocumentyoucaneasilyfollowthehysteresisexample
attachedabove.Ialsomodifiedtheexampletomakeitfully2D.Ihope
COMSOLwillofficiallyincorporatethistypeofschemeintheirAC/DC
Module.
Trevor

Attachments:hysteresis_example_2D10975.mph

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April20,20122:18pmUTCinresponsetoTrevorMunroe
Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

Hi,

DamienBarthlmy Iamworkingonanacademicproject,andtryingtosimulatemagnetic
hysteresislosswiththeJilesAthertonmethod.Iamusingthemodel
hysteresis_example_2D.mphasabasis.It'srunningfinewithdefault
parametersonComsol4.2a:
freq=50Hz
1A<I<5A
a560A/m
Ms1.6e6A/m
k1200
c0.1
alpha0.0007

ButIgetconvergenceproblems(unsolvablesystem)whenImodify
parameterssuchasfrequencyandcurrentamplitude.

Ichangefrequencyto50kHzinparametersdefinition.I0_Coilisnowdefined
with:
1[A]+2[A]*(t>0.04e3)+2[A]*(t>0.08e3)
Ialsoadjustthetimeintervalusedforsimulationlikethis.
range(0,5.0e7,1.2e4)
Nowsimulationisstillok.Itrunsfine.

ButifIchangecurrentamplitudelikethat:
I0_Coilisnowdefinedwith:1[A]+10[A]*(t>0.04e3)+10[A]*(t>0.08e3)
Iassumed,nosmoothingofsignalwasnecessarybecauseitsasinewave...

Igoterror:

Repeatederrortestfailures.Mayhavereachedasingularity.
Time:4.336672761686902e005
Undefinedvaluefound.
Undefinedvaluefoundinthestiffnessmatrix..
Thereare6equationsgivingNaN/Infinthematrixrowsforthevariable
mod1.H1x.
atcoordinates:(0.005,0.00885346),(0.005,0.00942673),(0.005,0.01),
(0.00461831,0.00963079),(0.00423662,0.00926159),...
Thereare6equationsgivingNaN/Infinthematrixrowsforthevariable
mod1.H1y.
atcoordinates:(0.005,0.00885346),(0.005,0.00942673),(0.005,0.01),
(0.00461831,0.00963079),(0.00423662,0.00926159),...
andsimilarlyforthedegreesoffreedom,NaN/Infinthematrixcolumns.
Lasttimestepisnotconverged.

Whatcanbedonetosolvethis?Itriedreducingmaximumtimestepintime
dependentsolverbutnosuccess.

Thanksinadvance.

D.Barthlmy

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August18,20123:20pmUTCinresponsetoDamienBarthlmy

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor


AntonioLopez Hi,everyone.IamworkinginmyPHdegreeandIneedyourhelpto
implementtheJilesAthertonmodelinComsol.
Iamtryingtomodelferromagneticmaterialsusingthe
"hysteresis_example_2D.mph"examplepostedhere,butIobtain"funny"
results.Mymodelisonlyarectangle(ferromagneticplate)andthreecircles
(threecopperconductorswithbalancedcurrents).IsayIhave"funny"results
becauseissomethingstrangethatforbalancedcurrents(shifted0,120and
120)Iobtaina"Failedtofindconsistentinitialvalaues"error,butiftheyare
notshifted(0,0and0)Ihaveacorrectsolution.Please,anysuggestions?

Thanksinadvance.

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August23,20162:21pmUTCinresponsetoTrevorMunroe

Re:HysteresisLossesonsynchronmotor

GauravKumar HiTrevor,

Iamalsotryingtosolvelossproblem.Iamgoingthroughyourmodel.Ihave
gotfewdoubts,

1>Canyoupleaseelaboratetheuseofflshmsandtheexpression
smoothRamp(Mrevx*d(Hex,t)+Mrevy*d(Hey,t),delta)/(c*k)*if(normMrev>0,Mrevy/norm
2>WhenIseetheodeexpressionitisbeingdifferentiatedwithrespecttot,
d(mf.Mx,t)(1c)*dMirrxdtc*d(Manx,t)

HoweverIntheSadowskipaperitisdifferentiatedwithrespecttoBe.

Canyoupleaseexplainitforme.

Withbestregards,
Gaurav

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