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https://ethaniverson.com/interviews/interview-with-bob-cranshaw/

Interview with Bob Cranshaw

Very special thanks to Shane Gasteyer of Local 802 for arranging the introduction
to Bob Cranshaw; thanks also to Janelle Fisk for transcribing the interview. When
preparing Ben Street and Mark Stryker offered valuable insight into Bobs music.

Bob Cranshaw: Im from Evanston, which is outside the suburban area of Chicago,
north of Chicago. Its a college town Northwestern University, Bahai Temple
theres a lot of things there. The Chicago area is where I had my musical arising.

Ethan Iverson: How did you start learning about music in Evanston?

BC: Im kind of from a musical family. My father was a drummer from Kansas City.

EI: A professional drummer?

BC: Yeah. He was a drummer with the circus in Kansas City. He came up with Count
Basie and that group, but I never really got a chance to really hear him play. I
just know of his playing.

I have a brother who was a pianist and an adopted brother who was a vibist. Music
was always there. My brother was really an incredible player but at a young age, he
got strung out on drugs. He started using. He was a college graduate and so forth,
but could play his buns off. He came to New York.

EI: What was his full name?

BC: Stanley Cranshaw. Then, I have an adopted brother who was Jewish. He was a
friend of my brothers whose parents were killed and my parents adopted him at a
young age. He was a vibist.

So, I was around music. I started out playing piano but I wouldnt read. I was
studying and my teacher would play something, This is what I want you to play next
week. I heard it, so Id go out and play baseball all week and come back and play
the same thing shed play because I had heard it. My brother really was a student
of the piano, so I got a chance to really listen a lot and they pushed me a lot.
Now I didnt really want to get into jazz. I wanted to be a classical
percussionist. I wasnt really interested in jazz at all [laughs].

EI: What does classical percussion mean? Is that mallets and timpani?

BC: Timpani, yeah. I did all of that through junior high school and high school.
Then, I just kind of started with the bass. One of my friends had a bass, so I
would go to his house and just mess around. My brother played with a band, so I
would go and listen when they were rehearsing. I would be out sitting on the porch.
They wouldnt allow me to come inside because theyre smoking weed and so forth, so
they didnt really want me to see it. I had to stay outside, but I would listen to
what was happening.

EI: And it was jazz?

BC: It was jazz. Junior Mance is also from Evanston, and hes one of the few
people that knew my brother well and really knew of his playing.
I was fighting the feeling, I guess at that time, as far as really wanting to be a
jazz musician. In the orchestra, when my friend had this bass, I started to study
with another guy in Evanston who played bass. He gave me lessons and I really
started to get into it. Now, by my family kind of being from more of a jazz
background, I really didnt hear a lot of classical music. Although I wanted to be
a classical percussionist, other than being in the orchestra and the band, I really
didnt hear any other things. I didnt have a collection. I didnt go to symphonies
and so forth. I really never heard any of that.

But my father was a choir director, and I really got a chance to hear his gospel
choir. I mean, it was an incredible choir. As a young kid, I wanted to sing with
the choir but I was too young and I used to just cry. I used to listen to the choir
and I wanted to be a part of it so bad. One of the things that stood out at the
time with the choir was the bass singers. He had three or four guys that were bass
and I enjoyed the sound, that deep roar. Being in Evanston, I got a chance to hear
a lot of choirs at Northwestern University, male choirs. I heard a Russian choir. I
swear the basses were so low it just went through me. I could hear the sound. I
enjoyed the sound. I just said, I want to play bass. So I started to get into
playing the bass. My parents bought me a bass and I started to study.

EI: Who did you study with?

BC: I had the same problem with the bass. I heard it; I played it. Evanston is a
pretty wealthy community, black and white, because of Northwestern, so I came up in
a really lovely neighborhood. As I tell guys, I can play the blues, but I cant cry
the blues because I didnt come from that kind of thing. Chicago was a whole
different thing. Evanston was a safe city just a beautiful community with
Northwestern, right on Lake Michigan. It was just a gorgeous place.

EI: Was your high school segregated?

BC: No. Everybody in Evanston went there and it was a brilliant school. It was
large, but it was a wealthy school. Thats what Im saying: I cant cry poverty
because I didnt really have it. Sometimes, youd like to be able to say, I came
from the wrong side of this or so forth. I really cant tell those kind of tales
because I didnt. I had the best. I came from a gorgeous high school, a brilliant
high school that was like a college. It was a huge school.

EI: Sounds like you played some symphonic repertoire in your high school.

BC: I think I was the sixth chair bassist. It was mainly a lot of girls in front
of me, you know, the first chair and the second and third. I was not still sold on
the bass, on really getting into it, but one day we had a sectional rehearsal with
the bass, and it was a passage that the conductor wanted each one of us to play
alone. I remember the first chair girl said, You know, Id rather work on it a
while. A couple of people tried it. By the time it got to me, Id already heard
it, so I played it! I already heard it; I knew what it was, so I didnt have any
problem. But again, I was depending upon my ear; I didnt depend upon what I know
or what I saw. I depended upon more of what I heard.

EI: How did you start playing jazz on the bass?

BC: My brother would play things. My brother could play harmonically. He was
incredible. We were teenagers, but he was serious. He could play.

EI: So this was early 50s, then?

BC: This was in the early 50s, 40s. He could already play. I mean, he was great.
So, he would play a chord and he would say, Play the bass. So, again, by me
playing by ear, all of it was generally by ear when I played. I learned to read
long after I could play, and it was harder for me to really read because I could
hear it. My brother would play a chord and then I would play the root. But again, a
lot of it came from the bass singers in the choir that I was really drawn to
hearing this Russian male choir that came to Northwestern University and I wanted
to scream because the basses were so low and it just ran through me. It was like
the woofers and the tweeters. I like the woofers [laughs] rather than the tweeters.

I was a tenor; I sang in the choir. All of the musical activities in school, I was
a part of. Gospel music I still listen to when I want to get pumped up. The gospel
thing, especially now, all of that shit is hot. Its hot. You go to hear one of
those gospel choirs, and the shit is swinging. The rhythm sections are swinging.
The guys that are playing the stuff is just happening. I listen to a lot of it
because it gets me ready to fight. I put it that way.

I have a lot of students and I talk about generally playing by ear. When I played
piano, my piano teacher after two or three years went to my parents and said,
Look. Theres no need for him to study with me because hes not reading anything.
I play it, he hears it, and he plays. At that point, I just stopped the piano and
my brother continued playing.

EI: At some point, you must have started listening to the jazz records and
listening to the bassists.

BC: I heard my brother playing with those different groups, although I was sitting
on the porch. There was a guy named Big Guy Brown; he was huge, about 200, 300
pounds. They would be playing with the better musicians in Evanston. They would be
rehearsing and playing. I could just hear what he was doing. I knew because of
listening to records, listening to Nat Cole. My brother was into Bud Powell, he
loved that kind of thing, so I heard it. I just wasnt really participating as
much.

Then, when I started to participate in a band, it was kind of playing for the
chicks, you know? Music was probably a way to get to the chicks. I was in the
choir. The high school was so large; they had auto mechanics. It was a tremendous
high school. While the guys were taking other things, I was in the choir because
the girls were in the choir. I learned to knit in high school because the girls
were there! I didnt want to be with a bunch of guys all the time. So, I got
involved in the things where the girls were.

At that point, I was interested in music and then I started to conduct choirs
watching and listening to my father. I started to conduct youth choirs, and I
belonged to a youth choir. It was music all the way and fortunately, my parents
encouraged me to play. They never stifled my development at all.

EI: The bass teacher you mentioned, was he teaching you jazz or just bass?

BC: Just bass. My high school orchestra was a large orchestra; it had to be 40 or
50 kids. It was really outstanding. Now, I didnt understand that much about
classical music. I was there, but I didnt have that kind of background where I
heard it or where I was really into it. I didnt hear it at home.

The orchestra director challenged me and said, Look. I want you to play. I want
you to get some material together for the state bass contest. He gave me maybe two
months or more.

I said, Okay, Ill do it, not thinking that I was going to really do it. One
month went by and he said, How are you doing on your tune? I hadnt even started
to work on shit. I went down to the music store and having no idea what I was
doing, I picked a Sonata in A Minor by Marcello that had three movements. My
teacher at Northwestern looked at it and said, Wait a minute. I dont know whether
you can play this. You have thumb positionyouve got stuff here that youre
nowhere near. I played it on the piano and learned the whole thing by playing and
hearing it! Okay, so, I didnt really read it. I won the state contest, but it was
way over my head.

Everything changed because the orchestra director really challenged me in that.

When I won, I said, I gotta stop bullshitting now. Its been bullshit all the way.
Ive been able to get by by hearing it and then playing it. Now, I gotta learn to
read. I gotta turn the equation around. At that point, with my teacher at
Northwestern, I started to get into it. I started to really devote some time to it.

EI: Who were some of the jazz bass players that inspired you?

BC: Again, coming up, the guys that were in Chicago that were a little ahead of
me: Victor Sproles

EI: Was Wilbur Ware there?

BC: Wilbur Ware Wilbur Beware! Gene Wright. They were all playing.

EI: Was that the same Eugene Wright that played with Brubeck?

BC: With Brubeck, yeah. He was with Gene Ammons and so forth. I started to get
more into it. I started to listen more because my brother had all of the records
there. I was in the jazz experience at that point.

EI: Why did you say, Wilbur Beware?

BC: Because you had to keep your eye on him! At that point, a lot of the guys were
strung out. The drug thing was big, and my brother was a part of that group of guys
that were musically ahead of me. Im sure they were trying to push me to make sure
Wilbur stayed cool. Wilbur used to use my bass all the time because he would pawn
his stuff. He would call me, but I would go with him. I would never leave the bass
with him and say, Well, you bring it back home. I knew the deal, but I wanted to
hear him play.

I watched Israel Crosby with Ahmad Jamal. We worked opposite guys like that, so I
got a chance to really learn a lot more about jazz, but I could also already hear
it, so my main thing was the playing by ear.

Ill go some place to play, and I dont ask what key. If you put the music there, I
can read it, but if you just play, I hear it. I trust my ear. I dont ask any
questions. I tell my students, I dont think about the chords. I dont even get
into that.

EI: Well, you know, youre famous for that. Youre famous for being able to play
any tune, any key, just by hearing it, the first time.

BC: You know what Im saying?

EI: On this recording with Sonny Rollins in 59, he changes keys and you follow
him.

BC: Thats when I became his bass player. I met Sonny through Walter Perkins,
Walter was better known in Chicago at that time, but Walter and I played together
in a trio with Eddie Higgins. Everything that Walter was doing in Chicago, I was
with him. We had a relationship. We formed a groove that was just incredible, the
two of us. We could play with anybody, anywhere.

EI: Where was he from? Was he from Chicago?

BC: Yeah. He was from Chicago. By me living in Evanston, it was a ride to get to
Chicago, 45 minutes to an hour, so I didnt really hang in Chicago a lot. I was
really a small town, country guy. The guys in Chicago, Look. Hes from Evanston.
Get outta here with that shit. But it was okay; again, the way I was brought up
was like a rich kid.

EI: When you say Walter Perkins and you had a groove, and then youre talking
about these guys like Wilbur Ware and Israel Crosby, we usually think about this
powerful groove and this powerful quarter note, like the four notes in the bar that
have a real strength, and you have this, too.

BC: Thats kind of my thing. Even when I came to New York, I never look and say I
had to be this or I had to be that. I knew what I brought to the package.

I dont care to solo, although I enjoy hearing other bass players solo. My thing is
playing time. Im a groove merchant. I like to set a pocket.

I know there are guys who solo and play their asses off. I appreciate it, but it
was never my thing. I dont hear that kind of thing. I hear the bottom of the
chord. It was easy for me to play. You know what Im saying? I didnt put any
pressure on myself. I understood from an early age what God had given me. I wanted
to be a part of something thats great. I didnt have to be the greatest. I didnt
push myself to be the greatest or have to be in front.

I used to play a lot of club dates, so I played a lot of bar mitzvahs and that kind
of thing. I enjoyed them! But when I came to New York, most jazz musicians didnt
do that, Oh, Im too proud. I aint playing that shit.

What I enjoyed about it is I got a chance to learn some tunes. I got a chance to
play with other guys. I was going to make it feel so good. That lady in the
wheelchair? I was going to make her get up and dance! That was my attitude. I
wanted it to feel good to the people that I was playing for. A lot of times, for
me, because of my gospel upbringing and whatever, I gravitate towards the groove of
whatever Im listening to first.

Im an Oscar Peterson fan. I played opposite Oscar for years in Chicago. They would
come to a place called The London House, which was a big room for all of the
celebrities. They would be at The London House for a whole month. I worked with a
trio Eddie Higgins and Walter Perkins and myself and for a month, it was like
taking a beating [laughs]. You know? I got a chance to learn from Ray Brown, but it
was like they just stomped us. We would open, and it was like the steak came in; we
were the salad, and they would just wipe us.

I remember Jonah Jones coming in for a month after Oscar left. I took my anger out
on them because we swung them almost outta the joint because we were burned for a
whole month. We were hurt, so we were ready to hurt somebody else [laughs] and that
was the kind of attitude.

I also remember Shelly Manne came in, and he came in without Leroy Vinnegar, and we
got him. Leroy had a certain kind of feel. They came in without Leroy; we took it
to them.

EI: Im gonna ask one of these dumb college questions to you, Bob, and if you
dont have anything good to say to it, thats fine. When you were listening to
Israel Crosby with Ahmad Jamal and Ray Brown with Oscar Peterson: those are two
different feels, two different beats, and theyre both great, but what would you
say about how theyre different?

BC: Ray was time and notes. Israel played melodies.

Monty Alexander and I worked a long time together. We both play by ear. If Monty
was playing an Oscar feel, I did the Ray Brown thing. If he wanted to do his Ahmad
Jamal bit, I did my Israel Crosby thing. When I changed to the Israel Crosby thing,
I didnt have to play the root all the time, it gave me a chance to think out of
the box again.

I really listened to and watched Israel a lot. It wasnt my time feel, but what he
played was outstanding, and I understood the difference in the two. Ray Browns
thing was like a Mack truck coming through. When they hit it, you had to move. You
had to get out of the way because theyd run over you. It was so powerful and it
was that strong.

I watched Ed Thigpen with the trio. Ray and Oscar had more of the same feel; Ed
Thigpen was a little more laid back. It was like being drug under a car [laughs]. I
mean, Ed was able to stay there, but I knew there was a difference in the feel, and
it was hard to match what those two guys were doing because their thing was so
strong and so outstanding. I dont know a drummer that could really hold back
unless you had that same kind of groove. They would just take you and you were
gone. He did a great job, but I could see him losing hair with that kind of thing
because it was hard.

EI: They were a little on top of the beat. Did Thigpen sort of have to try to keep
them in check, just with the beat?

BC: Right. And it was hard to do because they were gone. It could start here
[claps a fast tempo] and by the time they were through, you didnt know where it
was, but it felt so good. I know that Ed would be holding on because that wasnt
his feel; not that he played bad with any of it.

I talk to students about different kinds of feels. My thing is the more on top of
the beat not speeding up; Im aware of that, but more on top of the beat feels
better for me.

Again, Im a good listener for when Im playing with other people. I wont push. I
let them do where theyre going. All I want to do: Im gonna stick it. Thats my
thing. Wherever you want to count it off, its okay, but Im gonna give you that
extra little thing because thats what I feel. Thats what feels good to me without
changing what you do.

I did Sesame Street for 30-some years.

EI: Youre wearing the sweatshirt.

BC: Yeah. Oh, I have a million of them. In doing it, all of these things have been
a learning experience. There were three of us. There was Joe Raposo, who was the
musical director for the show, and the drummer named Danny Epstein. Here are three
guys we were like misfits because we each came from a different place. When I
heard Joe play, he played Klump, klump, klump, klump [quarter notes]. Im used to
playing with a McCoy Tyner or people like that who comp and who have a whole
different feel. Joe didnt play like that. Danny Epstein was a percussionist more
than a drummer, but he had a good feel. I used to say, he lived in Forest Hills and
wed play rock and Id say, Danny, youre playing Forest Hills Rock, just to
tease him, but he had a great feel.
When I heard Joe play, I said, Look. I dont want to change anything that hes
doing. I dont want to change the way he plays. Hes playing the bass part, so
that didnt leave me a lot of room, but I could hear what he was doing, so I
couldnt put him down for it. I said, What Im gonna do: Im gonna make it feel so
good to him, hes gonna stick his left hand in his pocket. I ended up doing that.
He stuck the left hand in his pocket because I was laying it down so he didnt have
to. He knew we were doubling each other. I didnt have to do it, but I didnt say
anything to him. I didnt ask him to change anything. As we started to get
familiar, you know, with the trio, as you learn each other, you just start to add
things. We would sit and play and laugh all day. It was fun. It was not like work.

EI: Steve Little was in there too, sometimes, right?

BC: Yeah. Ed Shaughnessy was the first drummer with the show, but Steve came in
after a while.

EI: For my jazz-type questions, Id love to hear what you have to say about
playing with Art Blakey versus Elvin Jones versus Billy Higgins versus Walter
Perkins versus all these guys who play the beat in these different places.

BC: Drums are exciting to people; theyre exciting when its done right. I used to
watch Buddy Rich. Buddy Rich and I spent a lot of time together and that was crazy,
because Buddy was nuts! He was crazy, but we would sit down and play. God gave that
guy some hands. Ive never seen anybody play a solo like Buddy Rich, but Buddys
time feel was not always there. What he liked about me was, I would lock him down.
I would lay the beat. What he was doing had a whole different color and texture. He
gave me the opportunity: bring it. Bring it. And thats what I did when we played
together and we spent a lot of time together. Im gonna lock down. Im gonna lock
you down, but I dont care where you put the beat.

Elvin Joness thing is exciting, so I dont want him to change, but I just get
under him and I lay the time. For me, I assist drummers because I like to lay it
down and give them a chance to do what they do.

EI: Do you attribute your feel to the gospel thing early in life?

BC: As a musician, that was my God-given gift. That was given to me. I didnt have
to change. I dont have to do anything.

EI: You never had to practice your feel.

BC: At this point, Im 81. I just sit back and groove with all of these different
drummers. I hear what theyre doing. I dont fight it. I take it. Is that where
you want it? Cool. But this is what Im going to bring and its gonna feel good.
Again, in my mind, that lady in that wheelchair, Im gonna make her dance tonight.
And that was my feeling, playing with Horace Silver, playing with any of those
people. Thats my focus. I hear the notes, so Im not fighting it. I dont ask you
what key. I dont even care.

EI: I think in another interview, speaking of piano players now, you say McCoy
Tyner was particularly helpful to getting the groove going for you.

BC: I felt like, in thinking about with Trane, his group, Elvin created excitement
with Trane. McCoy was almost like the bass player. He kept the time, to me. He kept
the chordal thing so that whatever the structure, wherever they went, it was cool
and it was exciting to hear Coltrane live. You would end up screaming because it
felt so good. McCoys thing to me he laid the shit down. He gave them a chance to
do what they do. He played solos, he did everything else, but his comping was like
an orchestra.

EI: It also, I think, is connected to gospel music. Many of the gospel pianists
now play McCoy Tyner phraseology.

BC: I know. With the piano and the organists and the gospel thing, its just a
whole different scope.

EI: Youre on so many canonical records of the 60s. Howd this stuff happen? Did
you always rehearse? Did you even know who was going to be on the date when you
would show up?

BC: Well, especially with the Blue Note dates, we would have a rehearsal. It was
funny because we would get paid for the rehearsals. So many guys were into drugs
and different things, so many people were there because they needed that money. I
dont remember if it was 20 bucks or something like that for the rehearsals.

At any rate you didnt want to miss out on what was happening. You would play the
music down, but by the time you got ready to record it a couple of days later, shit
changes. Everything changes once you get in the studio; all of the sudden, its a
whole different number. I just enjoyed. I listened to everybody that was playing.
Im always aware. Im a team player.

EI: I have a recording of the first night you played with Sonny Rollins. I think
this night in Chicago, you also played with Coleman Hawkins, which is on a bootleg
somewhere, too.

BC: Yeah. It was the first Playboy Jazz Festival. Let me tell you the story behind
it. Walter Perkins called me and said, Bob, I got a call from Sonny Rollins. He
told me to get a bass player for the jazz festival. Do you want to do it? I said,
Yeah. Ill do it. All of the sudden, after I hung the phone up, I started to
think. I said, Oh, shit. I dont know whether Im up for that, because the Wilbur
Wares and the Victor Sproles, they were the more experienced bass players in
Chicago. And there was no piano. If there had been piano, I would have said,
Yeah, because I would have felt comfortable. But here, it was just bass and
drums. I said, Aw, man. I may be biting off more than I can chew. But I followed
through.

Sonny told us to be at the place; it was an afternoon concert. He told us to be

there a couple hours ahead and set up. We get there and we set up. I hadnt met
Sonny. I heard Sonny play in Chicago, but it was with the Wilbur Wares and the more
experienced people when he was there. I didnt know him.

I remember, the concert started. The guy came to us and said, Wheres Sonny? I
said, I have no idea. I havent met him yet. I dont know. Maybe hes here. I have
no idea. The first group played for about forty minutes. The second group, I
remember, went on. They played. The third group I think, I dont know whether it
was the Four Freshman or something and then there was a Dixieland band playing
before us. Now, these groups are playing. The Dixieland band played twenty minutes,
half an hour. We were next, and everybody was waiting for Sonny because Sonny
hadnt been out. When he took a leave of absence, he hadnt played. This was the
first time Sonny was playing in a year or two, so nobody had heard Sonny. The
Dixieland band is playing and playing and people are now tired of hearing that.

All of the sudden, Sonnys there. At that point, we ate it up.

It gave me a chance to learn something about Sonny because Sonny had been there
probably a couple hours before we were there. He watched everything that went down.
In my mind, he watched it, and he picked his time to go on. At that point, I always
said, I learned the method to Sonnys madness. We played the concert. We finished.
Sonny wrote me a letter and said, Im going to put a group together. Would you
like to be a part? I said, Yes, but then I started to think again. I said, Oh,
shit. I dont know whether Im ready for Sonny Rollins. Ive been dicking around
here, but I dont know whether Im ready for someone like Sonny Rollins. He didnt
do it right away. He would write me letters and so forth, and a year later, he put
it together.

I guess Ive been with Sonny forI dont know, like a marriagefor 40-some years.

EI: Its longer than that. Its over 50 years, Bob.

BC: Damn!

EI: Im not sure if these tunes are in the right order or not. The sound is bad,
but the music is still great. The first song is I Want to Be Happy.

BC: [Listening] We used to play this fast when Sonny would play. We would do it
for an hour. Not necessarily this song, but something like that when he came out. I
remember being in California and we played at least forty minutes like this. When I
got through, I couldnt bend my fingers [laughs]. I was playing something this
morning that I did with Carmen McRae, and it was fast. I said to my wife, There
aint no way in hell I could play that fast now, period. I couldnt even think
that fast. But Sonny stopped really doing that. During that time, he was really
playing uptempo.

That bass that I had then was gorgeous. Eldee Young, who was with Ramsey Lewis,
found it for me. When I came to New York, I was working at the Blue Angel, playing
shows with a guy named Frank Owens on piano. I went in on a Saturday and my bass
was gone; somebody stole it. Never saw it again.

EI: Thats terrible, Bob.

When youre playing this fast, are you feeling it like every quarter note, or more
like one beat to a bar, orknow what I mean?

BC: I think Im thinking probably every quarter note. I know the tune. Youre
probably just holding on. Im hoping Im gonna make it! [laughs] But I was younger,
you know, so I had the stamina. Im sure Sonny had the stamina. I dont know
whether he would think of playing like that now. Not an easy tempo. Sonny is 83
hes a year, two years older than me and it takes a lot to play this fast.
Sometimes I go up to Smoke and I play with Michael LeDonne. Hell play maybe one or
two of these a night and Im holding on. Youre trying to play some different
things, but its hard to really be able to think or move. You dont want to keep
repeating yourself, so what do you do? How do you create something different
without really getting into some theatrics?

During this time, Walter Perkins and I, because we played together so long in
Chicago, we would finish our job at The London House; wed finish early because it
was a steakhouse. Then we would go to different clubs. Everybody knew Walter, so
when we walked into the club wed go to the south side they know were going to
sit in. We would come in. Theyd see Walter walk in, and Id be behind him, and
wed go up and maybe play two, maybe three, and tear it up, leave the house
standing! Then wed leave and go to another club and do the same thing. Walter,
again, as a drummer, had a good feel. I mean, he wasnt an outstanding drummer as
far as chops, but his feel he could swing at the drop of a hat. He had groove. It
reminded me Art Blakey had a pocket that was incredible. [listens] Damn. [listens]
Yeah, I never heard this before.
EI: Ill leave it with you.

BC: Thank you. How did you get it?

EI: There are collectors. You know?

BC: Oh, bootlegs.

EI: They trade tapes and that sort of thing. I dont know how you feel about that.

BC: I know theyre there.

EI: [Announcer introduces in the band; Oleo starts] This might have been the
first tune. I might have it out of order.

BC: Im not sure myself.

Sonny and I, over the 50 years, we talked very little.

My wife talked to Sonny. They could be on the phone because he got her into yoga.
Sonny was heavy into yoga. Theyd sit and talk. They could talk for hours.

EI: You and Sonny never really talked about music?

BC: I think Sonny and I, over the 50 years, may have talked an hour and a half
worth [laughs]. I mean, I say that; its probably more, but we never got into that
much discussion. I listened to him talk to other people. I was around him when hed
talk to his wife, but as far as Sonny and I, one on one

EI: Did you ever hear Sonny talk about music with anybody?

BC: Yeah. Sonnys heavy. Hes brilliant. Sonny could have been a surgeon. He could
have been a doctor. In fact, Sonnys brother is a doctor.

Just brilliant as far as his thought of music and what he thinks about how he
approaches. Sonny practices. Sonny can practice six hours a day, eight hours a day.
I dont want to listen to six hours of music in a fucking day! I couldnt do it. I
dont have that. I like to do other things. Music comes through me, but its not my
all. I put it that way. When Im playing, I could be sitting in the audience. I
could tell what youre talking about at the table. Im there, but my body and what
Im hearing is here. Its like an out of body experience for me.

EI: Listening to Sonny phrase Oleo here, I have another sort of dumbass
question: Sonny can play really behind the beat sometimes. If youre fitting in
with the drums and the piano, are you also listening to the time of the horn player
when youre playing? Does that affect you?

BC: Yeah. Im listening to what hes doing and where he is within the tune,
because Sonny can do some things. Sonny can play, and hes playing in and out of
things, but it can become confusing. So, if a guy didnt know him, hed say, Where
the fuck are we? Where are we in this tune? Where is he?

Sonny, the way he can play time in and out of phrases

Sometimes Ive heard him with other bass players or other drummers, and they were
confused. You hear something; is he really in that place or is he someplace else?
My thing was, because Im really into trying to play the changes in the bottom, I
usually stay where I am. I can hear him if hes in another place. I talk about that
with guys in the band, drummers especially: Sonny turned the time around. Ive seen
him turn the time around. Now, where do you go? Do you go with where he is, or do
you stay where you are? Sometimes youre in that position because hes playing so
much stuff until youre saying, Should I be there, or should I be there? Usually,
Im locked down. Im going. Im straight ahead. If I hear something else happening,
I hear it, so I can go there. If I have to jump into the next bar, or go back, I
hear it. Its coming through me.

Again, Im listening to the same thing as the guy sitting in the chair. Im hearing
the same thing. Im on stage playing it but I never think of it in that way. Its
kind of like Im sitting and Im listening to it. I know that Im playing. Thats a
God-given gift to me. Im there, but Im like in the audience because Im watching.
I can see what theyre doing, and its like its coming through me. I think, when
people ask, thats probably why I look so young, because I dont feel like Im
doing anything. Its not work. Its not really any work. Im playing the tune. Its
not work. Its not any work for me.

EI: Speaking of Sonny and the form and so forth, theres a very famous Oleo on
Our Man in Jazz, which is extremely fast, and it morphs into many feels.

BC: That was a rough thing. Not the date in itself, but Im not a free form
player. I like form. Im more locked into form. Playing free: For me, I always said
Id rather be in bondage. I dont want to be that free. It took some time for me to
make up my mind whether I could really get into it when Sonny started to do that.
Sonnys a master, so it was just another transition for him. Hes checking out
something different. At that point, Im still into changes. Im trying to make sure
Im playing the right changes to the tune. My head was more there at that time. So,
it became a little difficult for me. I dont know whether I left because Sonny
started to get into the free form thing. I left the group for a minute because I
didnt feel that I could be true to what was happening, musically, because I wasnt
there. I wasnt there yet. I didnt want to put it down. Were coming here and
listening to Ornette Coleman when Ornette and them started. Im trying to figure
out, What the hell are they doing? But what I enjoy with Ornette and what brought
my attraction was Billy Higgins and Charlie Haden. That shit was swinging. It felt
good to me, so they locked me in with Im still trying to figure out whats
happening, but they locked me in.

I remember going with Milt Jackson. Now, heres [someone] older than me, and
another way [of] music; [I was] watching him as he was listening to Ornette
Coleman. At that time, Ornette was getting a lot of kudos in all the articles in
the paper, What is the new thing? Being there with Milt and watching him, hes a
traditionalist. Hes from another school. Im more into the school with Ornette as
far as age [of] guys; Milt is older. Watching him listen to it had to be like
watching Coleman Hawkins going to hear Sonny, maybe. You know what Im saying? They
say, Where in the fuck did this come from? What is he doing? Where is he coming
from? Or, guys listening to Monk after hearing more traditional people. It was
kind of some of those transitions for me.

EI: You were right there with Coleman Hawkins and Sonny together on that famous
date, where Sonny plays the most avant-garde saxophone imaginable, really.

Paul Bley was there, too.

BC: Bucky Bley!

EI: Bucky Bley why do you call him that?

BC: Thats his name. Hes from Canada. It was different for me. It wasnt easy for
me to do. But again, playing by ear, I didnt go in with any preconceived anything.
What I hear, thats where Im going.
EI: You know, I think the most famous solo on that record is actually Paul Bleys
solo on All The Things You Are. Has anyone ever said that to you? Do you know
thats a famous solo?

BC: Yeah.

EI: Its really out!

BC: Yeah, its out, but we had a good time. My thing was, This is the way he
plays, so get used to it. Try to see how you fit, or what can you make fit with
what hes doing because he knows what hes doing. It wasnt like he was strange.
He knew!

EI: Actually, youre on one of his better later records, Bebopbebopbebopbebop,

with Keith Copeland. Its a nice record.

BC: Yeah. I kind of remember it.

EI: Lets go back to Sonny and Chicago listen to Without A Song. This is the
moment theres a little cadenza and then Sonny changes key and youre right with
him. [listens] I think youre in Eb here, right? Do you have perfect pitch, Bob?

BC: No. I think I have relative pitch. When I hear something, Im close.

Sonny said after he changed, when he did that, I became his bass player. Thats his
thing.

EI: So, he told you about this?

BC: Well, I didnt remember it, but in articles, Sonny said when he changed keys
and I went with him, I became his bass player because he felt like he could do
whatever he wanted to do and I was there. Im a supportive player. I dont have to
be the star of anything. I just like playing with people. [listens] I like this
tune.

EI: I do, too.

BC: When Jim Hall came with the band was nice. I had never played with just
guitar. How difficult it had to be for Jim when Sonny started to go through the
different things like Our Man in Jazz. With all of those things, it kind of left
Jim Hall out in the cold because that wasnt his kind of playing.

[listens] Hes a master, Sonny is, with the horn in his mouth. The stuff that he
plays, sometimes I have to block some of it because Im trying to remember it
because I want to play some of this shit. Its like hes looking at you and he sees
you trying to figure out whats happening, so he plays some other shit that makes
you forget. Thats the kind of player that just seems to be his mode, his
operation. Im sitting there and Im saying, Damn! I heard what he played. Thats
great. I want to play it. I want to remember it. But he plays it, you hear it, and
then he does the eraser. He plays so much other shit that you forget what he
played. Unless youre listening to something like this, you dont know whats
happening. [listens]

EI: Picked up the bow there for a moment. [listens and theres the surprise
modulation] There it is! Thats really hard to hear that. I couldnt have heard
that.

BC: Another experience that Ive had like Sonnys I did a CD with Erroll Garner
and Grady Tate. His last CD. The same kind of experience, like Sonny, played
standards. He played a tune; it was his tune. He said, Okay, Bob. Im just gonna
play a little of it so you can hear it. He played the tune down. Okay, now well
make a take. Take one! He turned back to the piano and put his hands down for an
intro. He was in another key. He had no idea. He played by ear. Grady and I looked
at each other. I heard it, so I didnt panic, but the two of us are looking there
and were laughing because how in the hell two second ago, he just played the tune
in one key, and the guy says, Now were gonna make a take, and he turns to the
piano and hes already wherever his hands were, thats where it was. He had no
idea. He couldnt read shit.

EI: What a hell of a player, though.

BC: To think of that kind of gift.

EI: Do you think he was joking with you?

BC: Nope. He did it a few times. No. Wherever he turns, wherever his hands hit,
hed play there. Most of the time hed play an intro, hes not even sure what hes
gonna play. Hes playing something and hes searching to see what tune. We had no
idea. We watched and we just laughed. First of all, we came in the studio, and we
were all short, so we were all the same size [laughs]. We went off on that because
it was just funny with all of these short guys. It was the same kind of experience.
He played. He justplayed.

EI: This may be a good segue to talking about some records. I have selected stuff
from your discography. I just thought we could talk through things, see if
something shakes out from the years, a comment about the session or the musicians.
You can almost think of it like word association, you know? If this isnt
pleasurable for you, you tell me and well stop.

BC: No, no, its all good.

EI: A lot of the first records were with the MJT+3.

BC: Walter Perkins was kind of the leader, but then we didnt one person to be out
front. It was kind of a co-op group.

EI: You guys made a few records. You must have played out a fair amount, too?

BC: We worked with Eddie Higgins, Walter and I, for three nights at the Cloister,
and then we worked another three nights with the MJT at a club on the south side.
So, it was a lot. We were able to do a lot. We had a good time.

Im telling you, I can play the blues, but I cant cry the blues, because I never
went through any of those things that most musicians go through; I never went
through it. It was one of the reasons why I do a lot of things at the union. It all
paid off for me. Its not good for everybody. I tell kids when they come in to
join, that kind of thing may not be good. I dont think its as great at this time
because theres not enough work to ask a guy to have to pay this into the pension
when theres not that kind of work out there, but its paid off for me with a huge
pension. That part of the system worked for me.

EI: You were in the union in Chicago back then with the MJT?

BC: Yeah.

A weird thing happened: I was in the union. I played a job with my brother and a
saxophonist, Junior MacDonald, who was a great player. He took a deposit for a job
we played up in Waukegan. He took a deposit and then he went to Lexington; he went
for the cure a couple days later. Now, hes got a deposit for money for the thing,
but he didnt make it. He sent another guy. My brother was not in the union. There
were a couple guys who were not in the union. When we got to the job, it was in the
union hall in Waukegan. When we started, I said, Look. Im in the union. Not
everybody is in the union. Am I going to be penalized for playing this job? I was
hired and asked to be here, so Im here. They said, Okay. All right. And it
wasnt all right. So, the union in Chicago wanted to fine me, and they put me out
of the union and knocked me out of a job with Ahmad Jamal, because Israel Crosby
was leaving Ahmad Jamal. Lets see, I dont know whether he was going with George
Shearing, but Israel was leaving and Vernel was leaving. Walter Perkins went with
Ahmad and he was bringing me in on the gig and I couldnt do it because I wasnt in
the union.

EI: The MJT+3 had Frank Strozier, a great player.

BC: Yeah. Incredible player, but the first group of MJT was with a guy named Nicky
Hill and Paul Serrano, trumpet, I think, or Bobby Bryant, trumpet player.

EI: I think the future Muhal Richard Abrams was just Richard Abrams at that time.
Did he play straight ahead at that time?

BC: Yeah. He did a lot of writing and arranging, but he was more straight ahead at
that time.

EI: Then youre on a record with Max Roach: Max on the Chicago Scene.

BC: With Ramsey Lewis.

EI: I have it listed as: Booker Little, George Coleman, Eddie Baker.

BC: Oh, Eddie Baker? Okay.

EI: Did Max he sort of came through Chicago and made a record there?

BC: Yeah. He made a record there and at that time, I guess he was looking for a
bass player. I was young and I had a family, so I decided not to really put my
hopes into coming to New York. We had a good time. I remember recording the record
but I dont even remember anything about it.

EI: Sure. Then, a few years later, like in 1960, you are out in New York making
some records. Had you moved here? Were you just visiting?

BC: No, I moved here.

EI: In 1960, about?

BC: Yeah. I came here in 5960. We came, as a group, with the MJT. We came here
with the group.

EI: Oh, the whole group came out here?

BC: The whole group came here. After Ornette left The Five Spot, we went in for a
month at The Five Spot after that. Then, the group kind of petered out. It was
hard. It was a strange experience because when we came here, we were not accepted.
The guys who were here seemed very strange.

EI: You felt like New York musicians didnt accept your group?
BC: They were not warm. There was just a funny feeling, but it really set me up.
Some of the guys that I became really close to once I was here were some of the
guys that just seemed kind of, Eh It was like, Well, were from Chicago. Im
sure youve gone through some of it here. Well, youre not the New York [guy].
Youre not the in guy, all of those things. At that point, I said, Okay. They
dont want me? They got me. Somebody is gonna have to move over. That was my
attitude. Somebody just gotta move.

Paul [Chambers] and I were close from Chicago. We knew each other, and Doug
Watkins. I knew most of the guys that would come to we knew. We had a good time
with I knew everybodys book. I used to tell Paul Chambers, Paul, you get drunk
one more time, Im gonna take your gig. I knew all of Miles stuff. I knew
everything they played. If one of the guys fell out one night, they were in
trouble. I used to tease Paul with that all the time because he would start to
drink. By the end of the night, maybe he had some problems, but we knew, because
all the guys were close, we knew all of the material.

EI: Do you think any of those bassists especially influenced your style as a
player?

BC: Well, I guess Ray Brown, probably more, because he was a time player. And Milt
Hinton. Milt Hinton was one of the first bass players that I heard. This was before
TV. I heard him on the radio. I think he was my biggest influence. When I heard him
play, the shit was swinging so hard that the radio was about to jump off the table.
I went to my father, and I said, I want to play that.

I have a story about Milt when I came to New York. I had been in New York maybe a
few months, and I was on 48th and Broadway. I was on my way to rehearsal with
somebody and I had a bag on my bass that was raggedy and about to fall off, but I
couldnt afford anything else. I was walking down to the rehearsal and this
gentleman dressed with a tie stopped me on the street. He said, Hi. Whats your
name? I said, Bob Cranshaw. He said, Are you a professional bassist? I said,
Yes, sir. He said, Im Milt Hinton. I said, Oh, shit. It was like meeting
God. Heres my mentor.

He took me into Mannys and he bought me a bass case on the spot.

EI: Really? Hadnt even heard you play a note?

BC: Took me and bought me a bass case right there. He said as a professional, I
couldnt be walking around with a bag like that. What I teach in my method and my
thought of music is, I say, The Milt Hinton Method, because when I came, I
followed Milt around. I used to just go. They were doing a lot of recording. They
were recording all day. I would just go to the date and I would sit on the side. I
didnt want to disturb anybody, but just to watch him. What I got from watching him
was when it could be 50 musicians when The Judge walked into the room, you
could feel the energy. Everybody was talking. That was the kind of guy he was. That
was the life. He was my biggest, my most wonderful influence, was watching The
Judge. When I started to play, when I started to work with Joe Williams and so
forth, Milt did all the record dates. He was part of the rhythm section with Osie
Johnson and a couple other guys. I would go to the dates and just watch him because
I was working with Joe and I was going to have to play the same music the next
week. I said, I might as well get it from the horses mouth. Let me get the first
thing and then I have a better understanding of what I need to play when we go out
on the road with Joe Williams.

I followed Milts career all the way to the point where I used to call him every
Sunday. Id say, Judge, I just want me blessing, just to talk to him and so
forth. One Sunday I called, and his wife said, The Judge is at a club meeting.
Im saying, Hes almost 90 years old. What kind of club meeting? What could he be
into now? There was a club called the Friendly Fifties that are in New York and
Im a member now. I joined following his thing. It was what guys like Jonah Jones
and a bunch of the older guys put together, this club, so that the wives could be
more together when they were traveling. These were the early days. I became part of
the Friendly Fifties, and I wrote an article for Allegro at the union about all of
these famous guys that were part of this club that nobody had any idea it existed.

EI: Of course, you and Milt are consummate studio musicians. Another person I
might put in there is George Duvivier. You must have known him, too?

BC: He knew a lot of music. He floored me, too. I enjoyed Milt because we had the
same kind of energy, but George Duvivier I did a record date and there were at
least 40 or 50 musicians on this date. They put the music out and it was all in the
wrong key. The copyist copied the stuff. This was strings and everything. To sit
down and write out your part for all of the music that was there George Duvivier
got up, he looked at the score, and he said, Okay. Violins, [imitates giving
instructions]. He did the whole thing! I said, What?! Every part that was
written there, George Duvivier transposed everything. He gave everybody their part.
That freaked me out. I never knew that he had that kind of ability. We would have
been there hours trying to transpose the music. He did it within 15-20 minutes
the whole orchestra.

EI: Do you mind if I continue with my list? I know this was a long time ago. Ill
just say names here, then you just see if you have a response. I got: Big Soul-Band
with Johnny Griffin arranged by Norman Simmons in 1960.

BC: Rough date.

EI: Yeah?

BC: It was rough for me because I became more disciplined after the date. It was
terrible for me. It was a lot of young guys on the date. I should have followed
Charlie Persip and Clark Terry because they all had pencils and they wrote
everything down. I thought, because I was young, I was going to remember
everything, all of the changes. I got on the date and I panicked. I didnt remember
shit.

EI: Oh, no.

BC: I never was in that position ever again. I have all my basses theres three
or four pencils. I didnt take a pencil and I didnt write down, Were going from
here to here to here. I just assumed that I could remember all of it. When they
said, Take one, I panicked. That was the only time I thought that I was very,
very uncomfortable. I went to the record company and apologized. It was
uncomfortable for me.

EI: Interesting. I see Wayne Shorter Second Genesis with Cedar Walton and Blakey.

BC: That was nice. It was enjoyable. We had a good time.

EI: Teddy Wilson Trio?

BC: I went out to do Jazz at the Philharmonic, the last Jazz at the Philharmonic
for Ray Brown. I was subbing for Ray. Through that, I met Teddy and that whole
group of guys. I was the youngest guy at that point in that group with Jazz at the
Phil. So, I was kind of silly. I was young. I just remember I used to go around,
when wed check into a hotel in England and so forth, if you put your shoes out,
they would shine them. They had a little hole in the door and they would put them
back. I used to, because I was young and just a lot of energy, I used to go and put
a black shoe with a brown shoe. I used to mess with the guys. It was Coleman
Hawkins and Ben Webster and all of them. I used to go and just fuck their shoes up.
That, I remember. That was a good time. They could play. Thats how I got involved
with Teddy and so forth, between Norman Granz. Then, I went with Ella. Right after
that, I worked years with Ella.

EI: Duke Pearson seemed like a special relationship.

BC: Yeah. Well, I was part of his band, first of all. When he became musical
director for Blue Note, I would do a lot of things, but I had to tell Duke I
wanted to be very honest and we were very close and I would tell Duke, Dont
call me for all of the dates. Theres too many great bass players in New York.
Other people should also have an opportunity to do some things, so please dont
call me. Its not like I cant use the money, but I dont feel that its right.
But I did a lot of Blue Note dates because I was on time. If you said, Be there at
a certain time, I was there. It was a business for me at that point. There were
great bass players that came through; sometimes they were there and sometimes, you
know They could depend upon me. I didnt put any pressure on any of the record
dates. I didnt ask to be a star. I wanted to be a sideman. I wanted to be a super-
sideman. I think that was the relationship: that Duke knew that if he called upon
me, I would be there, and I wouldnt give anybody any problems.

EI: Would it be Duke Pearsons choice about who was on the records?

BC: Sometimes, yeah, and sometimes, the guys made the choice. It was like a
family. They knew that I would come. I didnt create any scene. I was easy to work
with. If this was what you wanted, I was going to try to do it without having a big
head. I wasnt messed up on drugs and so forth. I didnt get into a lot of that.
They didnt have any problems with me, and the company was full of people that they
had to worry about, who were stars. I didnt offer that.

EI: You played quite a bit with Barry Harris there in those 62-circa years.

BC: I enjoy playing with Barry, but it was hard for me because we had a different
time feel. It was one of the things guys play together when we get called; we just
play. You may have a different feel. I learned a lot about different feels. Barry
is more laid back. I gotta lean. I didnt want to do everything with Barry because
I wanted to make sure that our things mesh. I enjoy listening, but it was just
harder for me because its just not my groove. Playing with Monk and I was only
there for a short time I enjoyed the experience but it was different groove for
me. At that point, I really started to understand, Everything dont fit. It dont
always Not one fits all.

EI: Who was easier for you to play with? Was McCoy easier for you to play with?

BC: Oh, yeah. That type of playing. Herbie Hancock gave me more places to place my
notes. With Barry and Monk things, it was more of a stretch. Its got a different
kind of thing. It was funny: when we played on Lee Morgans Sidewinder, it was one
of the situations that was really funny. I always think in my mind, What would
have happened on Sidewinder had it been somebody like McCoy? It could have been a
whole different thing.

I remember Barry Harris saying, at the date, Barry saying, Ive never been on a
hit, so Im gonna play as funky as I can. Well, he aint a funk kind of player, in
saying as far as his sound and his groove is not in that kind of thing. But it came
off. He was able to pull it off.

I just remember the date, we laughed. Im laughing my can off. First of all,
Sidewinder wasnt a tune we had really rehearsed. We needed one more tune at the
record date. Lee Morgan went into the bathroom. We dont know whether hes getting
high or We had no idea. Hes in there for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and were just
waiting. We need one more tune to finish the date. When he came out, he put the
music down and it was Sidewinder.

EI: Its interesting about Barry Harris. I suppose his left hand is also lower.
McCoys left hand is a little higher, maybe more room for other notes, but Barrys
a little lower, in that Bud Powell zone.

BC: Right, so its harder. I would probably have had a hard time playing with Bud,
although it moves.

EI: You played comfortable with Horace and Horace, I feel, also has a left hand
thats down there, too. You even have to double a lot of stuff.

BC: But that was funny because before, I liked the way Horace comped. It was
moving, so I wanted to record with him. But when I started to record with him, he
wrote all the lines out. I said, Shit! because I had to play lines that he
[wrote] because hes playing the same line. I wanted to play with him when it was
not that, but I didnt get that. When he called me, it was always playing the
lines, but I enjoyed because I enjoy that kind of feel.

EI: I see that in Newport 63, sort of like Playboy 59, you played with a few
people and they ended up being records. One was McCoy Tyner; one was Joe Williams.

BC: Yeah. I was with Joe at the time and somehow we fell into doing a recording,
so we just got to play. It was a great day for me and my family because I brought
home a lot of money that day [laughs].

EI: Roker is there and I think you guys have a very special relationship, you and
Mickey Roker.

BC: Yeah. For me, most of my great relationships have been with the drummers.
Walter Perkins was one of the beginnings. Mickey and I. Another drummer, Bobby
Thomas, who died just a couple of months ago.

EI: I know him from Billy Taylor.

BC: We worked with Billy together, and then we did the David Frost TV show
together, but he died just a couple of months ago.

Each one of the drummers helped me with different things.

Mickey and I just locked down. We were the lock. Mickey is kind of a self-taught
drummer, and we started to play with Duke Pearsons big band. Duke would never
play. He was entertaining girls and stuff like that and the band is playing. We
were into the music; he was into the ladies. So, there was no piano player. It gave
me and Mickey a chance to get tighter because we had it with the band. It was a
learning experience, a great learning experience, for me at that time. Mickey and
I, we became tight. I heard Mickey when he came to Chicago with Ray Bryants trio.
I knew all of the music. Arthur Harper was with Ray Bryant, and Arthur would
sometimes, the last set, he would get drunk. I was ready to take the gig because I
knew the book. I studied everybodys book so if I had to, if there was ever a call,
I was ready.

EI: Sounds like the Duke Pearson Big Band played live quite a bit.

BC: Yeah. We played, like Thad Jones, but we played at the Half Note.
EI: Every Monday or something?

BC: Yeah. It was kind of that scene. Maybe a year or a few months. I remember
taking Ella Fitzgerald. I was working with Ella for years. I brought Ella down to
hear the band and she had a ball.

A lot of my musical career has been with singers.

EI: I think you played with them all, really.

BC: I played with a bunch of them. I enjoy accompanying. That meant that there was
no burden on me. I didnt have to do certain things. All I had to do was accompany.

EI: Its also great songs all the time.

BC: Well, I learned a lot of tunes.

EI: Sometimes those straight jazz gigs, its horn solo after horn solo, but
wheres the song?

BC: Thats what Im saying: you get drug. I enjoyed playing for singers. I really
had a good time working with Carmen. I had a beautiful time working with Joe
Williams, Peggy Lee, Sarah; all of these people, I had a wonderful time. Charles
Aznavour. All of them. It was a learning experience for me and I got a chance to do
what I do.

EI: Theres a famous record, Grant Green, Idle Moments, with Duke Pearson and Al
Harewood on drums, another special drummer.

BC: Groove, groove, groove. Got a heavy pocket. It was wonderful working with
Grant when we played. He was messed up.

EI: How so?

BC: Well, he was on drugs. He was heavy. So, to catch him right a lot of those
things, more guys were getting high. More guys were on heroin at that time. But
Grant, if you caught him at the right time, he could play. He was like a country
guy to me, but he could play his butt off. We had a good time. It was nice playing
with him. I enjoyed his company.

EI: One of my personal favorite records is more of an experimental record: Grachan

Moncor III, Evolution, with Lee Morgan, Jackie McLean, Bobby Hutcherson, and a
young Tony Williams.

BC: We were just having fun. That was a fun date. It was new for all of us because
it was different.

EI: Im going to toss out some other names. Maybe not records, but just names and
see if you have any memories. Jaki Byard?

BC: Great. Great player. I learned a lot from him. Nice energy. Happy. Just a
happy player. I felt great being in the presence of guys like that because from the
very beginning, they just gave me an opportunity to do what I do without having to
go through any bullshit, and it was nice. I wasnt put through any kind of test to
work with him. Id go and laugh and just had a good time. We always had a good
time. I enjoyed being around him.

EI: Jaki sort of had something where he could play the very oldest kind of jazz
music and the most modern, right?

BC: Yeah. He could do all of that in one tune. He would go into it. He was great.
Its funny because not that many people know about his playing. I mean, a lot of
the players who have passed, who guys have no idea even exist, when you think about
it, because I never think of the name. It seems like its been so long since he was
here, you know?

EI: He was a powerful force.

BC: Yeah, he was.

EI: Quincy Jones?

BC: Had a good time. Quincy and Grady and I did a lot of things together because
we were all young guys. We were all growing together. It was nice.

EI: What about Mary Lou Williams? You played quite a bit with her in the 70s.

BC: Me and Mickey Roker. I got the gig; I forget who was playing bass with her
before. Mickey got me on the gig.

EI: It might have been Buster before you.

BC: No. I was before Buster.

EI: Oh, I see.

BC: I brought Buster into things when he came from California. I used to give a
lot of gigs because I enjoyed working and I wasnt uptight. If a bass player wanted
a gig, because there was so many great bass players at the time Mary Lou, I had a
good time with. We worked at the Hickory House here in New York. I remember I had a
good time. Worked. Made good money in a nice place to play.

I had a wonderful time with Mary Lou; a great experience.

EI: Was she someone that talked about music a lot or just played?

BC: She talked about music. She knew a lot of music. The lady really knew a lot of
music.

EI: One of the reasons shes so interesting is she was there almost at the
beginning, yet always kept learning the newer styles and working with it.

BC: She was great. I had a wonderful time.

EI: Hell of a blues player.

BC: Yeah.

I remember when Mary Lou did a concert at Carnegie Hall and she had Cecil Taylor. I
guess it was just going to be her and Cecil Taylor, but Cecil was out, so she
called me and Mickey to help her.

She got pissed at us at the end of the gig, because there was no way we could
control Cecil Taylor. When he went out, he was gone. There wasnt nothing we could
do about it.

EI: I must admit, I was so excited. I remember in high school, I thought, Oh my

God! Mary Lou Williams and Cecil Taylor did a record together. I cant wait to hear
this.

BC: I never heard it because it was so out.

EI: Cecil doesnt really let up his thing. Its too bad.

BC: She thought that we would be able to control it, so when we got through, I
just remember Mickey saying to Mary Lou. She said, Well, I thought you all!
Mickey said to her, Look The only way we could help her with it is, I grab one
arm and Mickey grab the other arm and carry him off the stage. There was nothing
that we could do musically to be able to help.

EI: She thought that you guys would help.

BC: Yes, she thought we would be able to help whatever, but it was as strange and
as new to us as it was to her.

EI: Maybe she thought if there were some good, solid swing from Cranshaw and
Roker, he would hear that and change.

BC: But we couldnt change it. We didnt know what was happening. I just remember
him playing. We took an intermission. He went backstage, and they had a piano
backstage at Carnegie Hall. He played through the whole [intermission]. Backstage,
he was still playing; it was like he never stopped.

EI: Wow. It sounds like he didnt talk any of the other musicians about working
out how to make this quartet concert more successful.

BC: No. He was into his thing and there was no way out.

EI: Interesting.

BC: Its humorous to me because we tried to control it while it was happening. It

was nutty. I have the CD. I asked Mickey the same thing; he never played it. He had
it, but he said no. It wasnt a happy experience when we were there, so I wouldnt
listen to it.

EI: I got a couple other names here: Dexter Gordon?

BC: Wonderful. A lot of fun. He and Sonny, because theyre big guys with the
horn in their hands, a tenor looks like an alto saxophone. With Sonny, because with
his fingers and his big hands and that was the same thing; Dexter was such a tall
guy when he played the tenor. You look at it and it looked like an alto saxophone
to me because he was so big.

EI: Hank Mobley?

BC: Oh, Hank. Wonderful. Wonderful experience. Hank was such a beautiful guy. Any
time you did a record date, Hank was right on. Whatever problems he would have, he
was just right on at the date. You never felt any thing but a positive thing from
Hank. He wasnt like a real up guy; he was quiet. We would play but I never really
got to know Hank. A lot of the guys that I played with, I didnt really hang
because I had a family. My thing was taking care of my family. I didnt do a lot of
hanging out and so forth. I just never got into those things.

EI: Youre on something like 450 records, Bob.

BC: Yeah, the Japanese say Im on over 3000-something records.

EI: Oh, really? I see that you played with Duke Ellington just for a little bit.
You sat in with Duke or?

BC: I did a record date because when I was with Ella, Dukes band was part of the
thing Norman Granz hired. So, Duke would play some cuts. I was with Jimmy Jones and
Sam Woodyard as the rhythm section at that point for Ella. One day Duke called. I
was sitting at home and he was recording in the studio. I never heard it. I dont
even know what it is we did. I went in the studio. His bass player, I think was
John Lamb or somebody, was in Philadelphia because Duke was never off. He never
gave the guys time off. They were off and the bass player went to Philly and didnt
come back. I went in the studio and Duke had heard me play with Ella, so he knew my
playing. I just remember walking in. He gave me some music. It would be like 8 or
12 bars, 24 bars nothing. Then he might have bridge written in or so forth. So,
one of the things that Ive learned through my experience: dont ask any questions.
There was nothing written. That means you listen and you play what you hear. I
didnt ask a thing. That was one of the first things: no questions asked. He wanted
me to play in those bars, but there was nothing written, so all I could do was
listen to what the band was playing and play from that. I didnt ask a thing.

EI: Thats fabulous.

BC: But Duke knew; Im sure he knew that I could hear it, so but I didnt open my
mouth. Mums the word. I aint said shit. Just listen to whats happening and play
what you hear.

EI: What was he like in person, Duke?

BC: Duke was wonderful. He talked about a lot of music. He was just wonderful to
watch. He would write. Watching Johnny Hodges and all the guys because when I was
with Ella, I was very young. I was like the kid, and they were bringing I was kind
of raised with spending time with Johnny Hodges and all the guys who were older,
just watching them and laughing, because I used to hide their shoes, too.

EI: Do you want to say something about transitioning to electric bass?

BC: I just played it. I never thought about it; never studied. I just picked it
up. A bass is a bass. Thats my attitude. When playing the electric, I was doing it
for TV shows, Sesame Street and so forth, so I started to play it a little bit
more.

I was in a car accident when I was doing the David Frost show, so it messed up my
back. Any time I was playing the string bass, I had to stop playing because the
muscles in my back would tighten up. I still had to work and I still wanted to
play, so I said, Okay, Ill play the electric.

But I know that the jazz guys dont dig the electric, so I gotta make it sound and
I gotta make it feel like Im playing the string bass, because Im not looking for
them to change, so I gotta make it more inviting for them to want to sit down. I
know if I bring this in and somebodys playing this, theyre gonna hear this.
Theres no doubt about it. I did the same thing with Sonny. When I started to play
the electric with Sonny, he could hear it. Not that he wanted it more. Im playing
the same notes I want to play. I never thought about it. Same thing Im gonna play
here, Im gonna play here. No different. I didnt make a difference in my mind. I
didnt go through that. I just wanted it to sound more like a string bass and
thats what I played.

EI: I think you did a remarkable job because it really has the real jazz feel on
electric bass, and thats very rare, as you must know.
BC: Yeah, but thats the only thing I know [laughs]. It couldnt be any other way
because I dont know anything else. Again, I didnt do a head job on me. I knew
that it was uncomfortable for guys. I didnt want to fight them, so I gotta make it
as inviting to them as I can. That was the deal.

Sometimes, when I go watch other string bass players, sometimes I hear it and
sometimes I cant hear it. Youre going to hear this electric bass all the time.
That was one of the things that I enjoyed about playing it.

EI: Thanks for your time, Bob, and for all this wonderful music your selfless
groove helped made happen.