Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 10 - Stan Lee Deposition

Case 11-3333, Document 81, 01/26/2012, 509521, Page1 of 170
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME X OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon
TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
22631 Pacific Coast Highway #348
Malibu, California 90265
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Attorneys for Defendants-Appellants,
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME X OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
TABLE OF CONTENTS
JA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
X N/A Transcript for the May 13, 2010 Deposition of 2421
Stan Lee (requested by the Court and
submitted by Plaintiffs on June 6, 2011)
i
INDEX TO APPENDICES
Joint Appendix

Volume No.
I N/A 1/9/2012 Docket for Civil Case 1:10-cv-00141- 1
CM-KNF as of January 9, 2012
I 1 1/8/2010 Complaint 19
I 9 3/9/2010 Notice of Defendants’ Motion to 36
Dismiss for Lack of Personal
Jurisdiction and Failure to Join
Necessary Parties
I 10 3/9/2010 Defendants’ Memorandum of Law re: 39
Motion to Dismiss
I 11 3/9/2010 Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: Motion to 67
Dismiss
I 12 3/9/2010 Declaration of Neal Kirby re: Motion to 71
Dismiss
I 13 3/9/2010 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: Motion 75
to Dismiss
I 18 3/26/2010 Declaration of Alan Braverman re: 78
Motion to Dismiss
I 19 3/26/2010 Declaration of Eli Bard re: Motion to 80
Dismiss
I 20 3/26/2010 Declaration of James Quinn re: Motion 84
to Dismiss
I 23 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 87
Motion to Dismiss
I 24 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: 91
Motion to Dismiss
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 95
Dismiss
I 30 4/28/2010 Answer to Complaint and Counterclaims 111
ii

Volume No.
I 43 10/14/2010 Order re: Deposition of Mark Evanier 140
I 50 12/6/2010 Answer to Counterclaims 142
I 60 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion for 150
Summary Judgment
I 61 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 152
Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
I 62 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Memorandum re: Plaintiffs’ 186
Motion for Summary Judgment
I 65 2/25/2011 Declaration of Randi Singer re: 214
Judgment
II 65-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 1 – Excerpts from the May 13, 226
2010 and December 8, 2010 Depositions
of Stan Lee
II 65-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the October 327
21, 2010 Deposition of John Romita
II 65-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the October 378
26 and October 27, 2010 Depositions of
Roy Thomas
II 65-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the January 7, 422
2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
II 65-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the June 30, 448
2010 Deposition of Neal Kirby
II 65-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 6 – Excerpts from the July 1, 497
2010 Deposition of Lisa Kirby
III 65-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 7 – Excerpts from the October 515
25, 2010 Deposition of Susan Kirby
III 65-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 8 – Excerpts from the November 531
9, 2010 Deposition of Mark Evanier
III 65-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 9 – Excerpts from the December 553
iii

Volume No.
III 65-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 10 – Excerpts from the January 581
10, 2011 Deposition of John Morrow
III 65-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 15 – August 31, 2009 Press 599
Release from the Walt Disney Company
III 65-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 17 – May 30, 1972 Agreement 603
between Jack Kirby and Magazine
Management Co., Inc.
III 65-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 18 – 1981 Interview with Stan 609
Lee by Leonard Pitts, Jr.
III 65-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 25 – November 1, 1998 629
Agreement between Stan Lee and
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
III 65-29 2/25/2011 Exhibit 26 – August 6, 2007 Interview 640
with Lawrence Lieber by Daniel Best
III 65-30 2/25/2011 Exhibit 27 – January 9, 1963 Letter from 671
Stan Lee to Jerry Bails
III 65-31 2/25/2011 Exhibit 28 – Excerpt from Kirby: King 674
of Comics by Mark Evanier
III 65-32 2/25/2011 Exhibit 29 – “Stan Lee Made Up the Plot 677
… And I’d Write the Script” by Roy
Thomas
III 65-33 2/25/2011 Exhibit 30 – Two-page synopsis of The 692
Fantastic Four
III 66-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 31 – Interview with Stan Lee by 695
Dan Hagen
III 66-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 32 – Transcript of Interview with 715
Stan Lee by Eric Leguebe
III 66-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 33 – Excerpts from Origins of 724
Marvel Comics by Stan Lee
III 66-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 34 – June 11, 2007 Affidavit of 758
Stan Lee
iv

Volume No.
III 66-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 35 – March 7, 2006 Agreement 774
between Stan Lee and Marvel
Entertainment, Inc.
III 66-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 36 – May 19, 1978 Agreement 777
between John Romita and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 37 – June 1, 1978 Agreement 779
between Roy Thomas and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 38 – April 28, 2008 Letter from 781
Gene Colan to Marvel Comics
Enterprises
III 66-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 39 – Excerpt from The Art of 784
Jack Kirby by Ray Wyman, Jr.
III 66-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 40 – January 9, 1966 Article 787
“Super-Heroes With Super Problems” by
Nat Freedland
IV 66-11 2/25/2011 Exhibit 41 – Interview with Jack Kirby 794
and 66- by Gary Groth
12
IV 66-13 2/25/2011 Exhibit 42 – Excerpt from Jack Kirby 826
Collector Fifty-Four
IV 66-14 2/25/2011 Exhibit 43 – Interview with Jack Kirby 829
by Mark Herbert
IV 66-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 44 – July 12, 1966 Affidavit of 841
Jack Kirby
IV 66-16 2/25/2011 Exhibit 45 – Renewal Copyright 853
Registrations signed by Jack Kirby
IV 66-17 2/25/2011 Exhibit 46 – March 24, 1975 Agreement 874
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
v

Volume No.
IV 66-18 2/25/2011 Exhibit 47 – June 16, 1986 883
Acknowledgement of Copyright
Ownership by Jack Kirby
IV 66-19 2/25/2011 Exhibit 48 – June 16, 1987 Agreement 886
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
IV 66-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 49 – May 12, 1987 Letter from 898
Joseph Calamari to Jack Kirby
IV 66-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 50 – October 3, 1986 Article 901
“Response: Jack Kirby replies to Marvel
Statement”
IV 66-22 2/25/2011 Exhibit 51 – November 19, 1997 Letter 904
from Stephen F. Rohde to Joseph
Calamari
IV 66-23 2/25/2011 Exhibit 52 – Interview with Stan Lee by 908
David Anthony Kraft
IV 66-24 2/25/2011 Exhibit 53 – Interview with Stan Lee by 925
Clifford Meth and Daniel Dickholtz
IV 66-26 2/25/2011 Exhibit 55 – September 22, 2009 Article 931
“Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby
Lawsuit]” by Al Nickerson
IV 66-27 2/25/2011 Exhibit 56 – Excerpt from “The JACK 934
F.A.Q.”
IV 66-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 57 – Excerpt from “The JACK 939
F.A.Q.”
IV 67 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 945
the Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69 2/25/2011 Declaration of Sabrina Perelman re: 947
Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 950
vi

Volume No.
IV 69-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the November 995
IV 69-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from November 16, 1008
1999 trial proceedings in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group Inc., et al., Case
No. 97-638-RRM, in the U.S. District
Court for the District of Delaware
IV 69-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 1014
12, 1999 Deposition of Mark Evanier in
In re Marvel Entertainment Group
IV 70 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 1017
the Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72 2/25/2011 Declaration of David Fleischer re: 1019
Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the January 1021
IV 73 2/25/2011 Notice of Defendants’ Motion for 1077
Summary Judgment
IV 74 2/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1080
Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 74-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1088
Report of Mark Evanier
V 74-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from Kirby: King 1116
of Comics by Mark Evanier
V 74-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit C – 1972 “Jack Kirby’s Gods” 1125
Portfolio
V 74-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit D – 1969-1971 Presentation 1132
Pieces by Jack Kirby
V 75 2/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1135
Judgment
vii

Volume No.
V 75-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1140
Report of John Morrow
V 75-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Fantastic Four: The Lost 1161
through Adventure #1
75-4
V 78 2/25/2011 Defendants’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 1229
Judgment
V 82 3/25/2011 Supplement Declaration of Randi Singer 1235
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 82-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit 58 – Excerpts from the October 1238
Roy Thomas
V 82-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit 60 – Excerpts from the January 1249
7, 2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
V 82-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit 61 – Excerpts from the June 30, 1252
V 82-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit 63 – Excerpts from the January 1259
V 83 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 1277
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 85 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1295
Testimony of John Morrow
V 85-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the January 1299
viii

Volume No.
V 85-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – “Battling the Kirby Bug” by 1315
John Morrow
V 85-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Cover of Challengers of the 1317
Unknown, No. 1
V 87 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1319
V 87-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpt from Kirby: King of 1323
Comics by Mark Evanier
V 87-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the December 1325
V 87-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1342
V 87-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the October 1348
Roy Thomas
V 88 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1356
V 89 3/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1359
Judgment
V 90 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1364
Judgment
V 91 3/25/2011 Declaration of Richard Ayers re: 1372
Judgment
V 92 3/25/2011 Declaration of Joe Sinnott re: Plaintiffs’ 1378
VI 93 3/25/2011 Declaration of Neal Adams re: Plaintiffs’ 1384
ix

Volume No.
VI 94 3/25/2011 Declaration of James Steranko re: 1390
Judgment
VI 95 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Toberoff (Part II) 1397
re: Motions for Summary Judgment
VI 95-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit A – September 16, 2009 1408
“Fantastic Four” Termination Notice
VI 95-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the November 1424
VI 95-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the December 1437
VI 95-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit D – Excerpts from the January 1477
VI 95-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the January 7, 1513
VI 95-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1532
VI 95-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the June 30, 1559
VI 95-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit H – Excerpts from the October 1602
VI 95-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit I – Excerpts from the May 13, 1611
2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit J – Excerpts from the December 1621
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit K – Excerpts from the October 1653
27, 2010 Deposition of Roy Thomas
VI 95-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit L – Plaintiffs’ December 20, 1660
2011 Response to Defendants’ First Set
of Requests for Admissions
VI 95-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit M – Attached as Exhibit 17 to 1668
the Declaration of Randi Singer
x

Volume No.
VI 95-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit N – Jack Kirby Pencil Drawings 1675
of “Thor”
VII 95-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit O – Article “Kirby’s Gamma 1682
Rays: Alpha to Omega! – An Ultra-Rare
Find from 1962!”
VII 95-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit P – July 7, 2006 Agreement 1690
between Lisa Kirby and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
VII 95-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit Q – December 23, 2008 1692
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit R – November 3, 2008 1704
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit S – “Article “Fantastic Four 1713
#108: Jack’s Way”
VII 95-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit T – March 21, 1965 “Request for 1723
Payment” from Don Heck to Western
Printing and Lithographic
VII 95-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit U – Excerpts from “Five 1726
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
VII 95-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit V – Excerpts from “Alter Ego 1737
Presents: John Romita … and All that
Jazz!” by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash
VII 95-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit W – Excerpts from Jack Kirby 1746
Checklist Gold Edition
VII 95-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit X – Excerpts from The Art of 1763
Jack Kirby
VII 95-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit Y – Article “Kirby Gets 1776
Cracked”
xi

Volume No.
VII 95-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit Z – Article “The Monster of 1781
Moraggia”
VII 95-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit AA – 1974-1975 Checks to 1791
Richard Ayer
VII 95-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit BB – 1986 Check to Jack Kirby 1817
VII 95-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit CC – Article “Would You Like 1820
to See My Etchings?”
VII 95-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit DD – Attached as Exhibits 36 1828
and 37 to the Declaration of Randi
Singer
VII 95-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit EE – Draft Agreement between 1831
Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics Groups
VII 97-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit FF – Artwork by Jack Kirby 1842
VII 97-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit GG – Excerpts from Article “A 1850
Failure to Communicate: Part Two”
VII 97-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit HH – Excerpts from Article 1860
“Jack Kirby”
VII 97-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit II – Excerpts from Article “Hour 1863
Twenty-Five”
VII 97-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJ – Excerpts from Article “Jack 1865
Kirby Interview”
VII 97-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit KK – Excerpts from Article 1869
“Wow-What an Interview”
VII 97-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit LL – November 12, 1980 1872
Declaration of Donald S. Engel and
Exhibits C, D, E, attached thereto from
Gerber v. Cadence Industries
Corporation, et al., Case No. 80 3840
DVK, in the U.S. District Court for the
Central District of California
VII 97-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit MM – Excerpts from “Stan Lee: 1899
Conversations”
xii

Volume No.
VII 97-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit NN – Excerpts from Article 1904
“Jack Kirby A Celebration”
VII 97-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit OO –Article “Jack Kirby 1907
Interview”
VII 97-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit PP – Article “Kirby and Goliath: 1909
The Fight for Jack Kirby’s Marvel
Artwork”
VII 97-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit QQ – November 19, 1985 Letter 1917
from DC Comics to The Comics Journal
VII 97-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit RR – Handwritten Notes of Jack 1919
Kirby
VII 97-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit SS – Excerpt from Article “A 1924
Talk with Artist-Writer-Editor Jack
Kirby”
VII 97-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit TT – Article “Jack Kirby 1926
Interview”
VII 97-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit UU – Excerpts from “Superhero 1929
Women” by Stan Lee
VII 97-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit VV – Excerpts from “Interview 1933
with Stan Lee” from ign.com
VII 97-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit WW – Excerpts from “Son of 1937
Origins of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee
VII 97-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit XX – Excerpts from “The 1942
Fantastic Four” by Stan Lee
VII 97-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit YY – Excerpts from “Alter Ego, 1946
No. 74”
VII 97-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit ZZ – Excerpts from Article 1950
“Jack Kirby – The Master of Comic
Book Art”
VII 97-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit AAA – Excerpts from Article 1953
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– August 12, 1986”
xiii

Volume No.
VII 97-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit BBB – Excerpts from “The 1956
Incredible Hulk” by Stan Lee
VII 97-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit CCC – Excerpts from Article 1959
“The Goldberg Variations”
VII 97-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit DDD – Excerpts from Article 1962
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– March 3, 1967”
VII 97-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit EEE – Article “Jack Kirby: 1965
Prisoner of Gravity”
VIII 97-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit FFF – Article “Jack Kirby: A 1968
By-the-Month Chronology”
VIII 97-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit GGG – Article “The Highs and 2006
Lows of Henry Pym”
VIII 97-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit HHH – Article “They Were 2011
Aces”
VIII 97-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit III – December 24, 1980 2014
Declaration of Stephen Gerber and
Exhibit 3, attached thereto from Gerber
v. Cadence Industries Corporation, et al.
VIII 97-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJJ – Excerpts from “Nimmer on 2037
Copyright” (1963)
VIII 97-32 3/25/2011 Exhibit KKK – August 5, 1986 Letter 2049
from Joe Sacco to Paul Levine and
enclosure
VIII 98 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 2056
re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
VIII 99 3/25/2011 Redacted Declaration of Gene Colan re: 2146
Judgment
IX 108 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2152
Judgment
xiv

Volume No.
IX 110 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Sabrina Perelman 2286
re: Plaintiffs’ Motions to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier and John
Morrow
IX 110-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from November 16, 2288
1999 trial transcript in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group
IX 114 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 2292
Judgment
IX 114-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from “Five 2296
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
IX 114-2 4/8/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 2302
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
IX 114-3 4/8/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the December 2313
IX 114-4 4/8/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the October 2319
IX 114-5 4/8/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 2325
Roy Thomas
IX 116 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2332
Judgment
IX 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 2367
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
IX 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 2417
IX 124 8/15/2011 Notice of Appeal 2419
xv

Volume No.
X N/A Transcript for the May 13, 2010 2421
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
June 6, 2011)
Confidential Appendix
CA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2011 Declaration of Gene Colan re: Plaintiffs’ 1
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit A: March 22, 1975 Agreement 7
between Gene Colan and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit B: May 30, 1978 Agreement 15
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit C: April 28, 2008 Letter from 16
Gene Colan to Joe Quesada
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit D: May 31, 2008 Agreement 18
between Gene Colan and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Confidential Declaration of Marc 28
Toberoff re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for
Summary Judgment
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 2: July 26, 2002 Agreement 33
between Stan Lee and Marvel Enterprises,
Inc
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 4: March 20, 2006 Agreement 35
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 5: May 2, 2008 Agreement 39
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
xvi

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 6: December 31, 2009 47
Agreement between Catalyst Investments,
LLC and POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 7: December 18, 2009 59
Agreement between Silver Creek
Pictures, Inc. and POW! Entertainment,
Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 8: June 11, 2007 Agreement 72
between Marvel Entertainment, Inc. and
Stan Lee.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 9: Excerpts from the January 7, 77
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 10: March 22, 1975 Agreement 82
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 11: September 1, 1974 91
Agreement between Roy Thomas and
Marvel Comics Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 12: August 27, 1976 Agreement 99
between Roy Thomas and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 13: February 24, 1978 Letter 110
between Cadence Publishing Division
and Roy Thomas, enclosing March 7,
1977 Agreement between Roy Thomas
and Marvel Comics Group
II N/A Transcript for the October 21, 2010 115
Deposition of John Romita (requested by
the Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
July 12, 2011)
III N/A Transcript for the October 26, 2010 395
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
xvii

Volume No.
III N/A Transcript for the October 27, 2010 601
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
IV N/A Transcript for the December 8, 2010 705
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on June
6, 2011)
Special Appendix
SA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 1
I 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 3
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 53
Dismiss
xviii
CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
Page 1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
4 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., )
5 MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and )
6 MVL RIGHTS, LLC, )
7 PLAINTIFFS, )
8 )
9 VS. ) NO. 10-141-CMKF
10 )
11 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
12 NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
13 DEFENDANTS. )
14 __________________________________)
15
16 CONFIDENTIAL PURSUANT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
17 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF STAN LEE
18 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
19 MAY 13, 2010
20
21
22 REPORTED BY:
23 CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, CSR #7954, RPR, CRR, CLR
24 JOB NO.: 30189
25
TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

JA2421
Page 2
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 May 13, 2010
8 9:35 a.m.
9
10
11
12
13 Deposition of Stan Lee, taken on behalf of
14 Plaintiffs, held at the offices of Paul Hastings,
15 515 South Flower Street, 25th Floor, Los Angeles,
16 California, before Christy A. Cannariato,
17 CSR #7954, RPR, CRR.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

JA2422
Page 3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS:
4
5 WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES, LLP
6 BY: JAMES W. QUINN, ESQ.
7 RANDI W. SINGER, ESQ.
8 767 FIFTH AVENUE
9 NEW YORK, NY 10153
10
11 -AND-
12
13 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
14 BY: DAVID FLEISCHER, ESQ.
15 1221 AVENUE OF THE AMERICAS, 26TH FLOOR
17
18
19 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANTS:
20
21 TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.
22 BY: MARC TOBEROFF, ESQ.
23 2049 CENTURY PARK EAST, SUITE 2720
24 LOS ANGELES, CA 90067
25

JA2423
Page 4
1 APPEARANCES (Cont'd)
2
3
4 FOR THE WITNESS:
5
6 GANFER & SHORE, LLP
7 BY: ARTHUR LIEBERMAN, ESQ.
8 360 LEXINGTON AVENUE, 14TH FLOOR
10 REPRESENTING
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 ALSO PRESENT:
19 BRENT JORDAN, VIDEOGRAPHER
20 ELI BARD, MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT
21
22
23
24
25

JA2424
Page 5
1 I N D E X
2
3 EXAMINATION BY PAGE
4
5 MR. QUINN..............................................8
6
7 ----------------------------------------------------------
8 EXHIBITS
9 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
10
11 Lee Exhibit 1
12 Affidavit of Stan Lee..................................23
13
14 Lee Exhibit 2
15 Affidavit of Millicent Shuriff.........................29
16
17 Lee Exhibit 3
18 Article by Nat Freedland, "Super Heroes With Super
19 Problems," NY Herald Tribune, 1/9/66...................39
20
21 Lee Exhibit 4
22 Reprint "Super-Heroes with Super Problems".............39
23
24 Lee Exhibit 5 - Retained by Counsel for Plaintiff
25 Jack Kirby Collector Fifty-Four........................49

JA2425
Page 6
1 EXHIBITS
2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
3
4 Lee Exhibit 6
5 Color Photocopy of "Fantastic Four"....................53
6
8 Book, Alter Ego........................................62
9
10 Lee Exhibit 8
11 Deposition transcript of Stan Lee 11/18/03............102
12
13 Lee Exhibit 9
14 DVD titled Stan Lee Deposition Audio and Video Clips..103
15
16 Lee Exhibit 10
17 Collection of Audio CD labels from University of
18 Wyoming...............................................103
19
21 Book, Stan Lee Conversations, Edited by
22 Jeff McLaughlin.......................................121
23
25 Book, Origins of Marvel Comics, by Stan Lee...........120

JA2426
Page 7
1 S. LEE
2 Los Angeles, California; Thursday, May 13, 2010
3
4
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the start of DVD
6 labeled No. 1, the videotaped deposition of Stan Lee in
7 the matter of Marvel Worldwide, Inc. versus Lisa R. Kirby,
8 et al. filed in the United States District Court, Southern
9 District of New York, Case No. 10-141-CMKF.
10 This deposition is being held at 515 South
11 Flower Street, Los Angeles, California on May 13th, 2010,
12 at approximately 9:35 a.m.
13 My name is Brent Jordan from TSG Reporting,
14 Inc., and I am the legal video specialist. The court
15 reporter is Christy Cannariato in association with TSG.
16 Will counsel present please identify
17 yourselves for the record.
18 MR. QUINN: Jim Quinn, Weil Gotshal & Manges,
19 representing the Marvel entities.
20 MS. SINGER: Randi Singer with Weil Gotshal
21 representing the Marvel entities.
22 MR. FLEISCHER: David Fleischer with Haynes &
23 Boone also representing Marvel.
24 MR. BARD: Eli Bard, Deputy General Counsel,
25 Marvel Entertainment.

JA2427
Page 8
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Marc Toberoff representing the
3 Kirby children.
4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Arthur Lieberman representing
5 Stan Lee.
6 THE WITNESS: Stan Lee, I guess representing
7 Stan Lee.
8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
9 please swear in the witness.
10
11 STAN LEE,
12 having first been duly sworn, was
13 examined and testified as follows:
14
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. QUINN:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lee.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. And we've met before, haven't we?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you know that I represent Marvel and the
22 Marvel entities and also Disney in connection with this
23 matter?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And I'm going to be asking you some questions

JA2428
Page 9
1 S. LEE
2 today about information you may have relevant to the
3 matter. You understand that?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. You also understand that this is a deposition
6 that's being held pursuant to a court order in New York?
7 A. I'm sorry, I --
8 Q. That the deposition is being held pursuant to
9 a court order issued by the Court?
10 A. Oh, yes. I understand.
11 Q. And you and I met before? We met yesterday?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And we met on at least one other previous
14 occasion?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And we talked about what knowledge you may
17 have that would be relevant to the issues in this case.
18 A. Yes, we did.
19 Q. Could you tell us, sir, how old you are?
20 A. 87.
21 Q. And give us your educational background. I
22 thought you were 88. You're a young man.
23 A. Well, I'm 87 and-a-half, I guess.
24 Q. Okay, 87 and-a-half.
25 A. I went to high school in New York City at

JA2429
Page 10
1 S. LEE
2 DeWitt Clinton High School. And that's about the extent
3 of it.
4 Q. And when did you graduate from DeWitt Clinton
5 High School?
6 A. You know, honest to God, I don't remember the
7 year, but I did graduate.
8 Q. Fair enough. And did you serve in the
9 military?
10 A. Yes. I was in the US Army Signal Corps in
11 World War II.
12 Q. And how long were you in the military?
13 A. Three years.
14 Q. And could you briefly, or as briefly as you
15 can, tell us your employment history after you left DeWitt
16 Clinton High School?
17 A. Well, I had a lot of different jobs. I was --
18 I wrote obituaries for a press service. I was an office
19 boy. I was an usher. I did some advertising for the
20 National Jewish Hospital at Denver. I never knew what I
21 was supposed to be advertising, whether telling people to
22 get sick to go to the hospital, but...
23 And finally I got a job at a place called
24 Timely Comics which published comic books.
25 Q. And approximately when was that? The late

JA2430
Page 11
1 S. LEE
2 1930s, 1940s?
3 A. I think it must have been 1939 or 1940,
4 somewhere around there.
5 Q. And what was your first job responsibility at
6 Timely?
7 A. Well, I was hired by two people, Joe Simon and
8 Jack Kirby, who were producing the comics at that time for
9 this company which was called Timely Comics.
10 Q. And --
11 A. And my job was to really be an assistant. I
12 went down, and I got them their lunch sandwiches for them,
13 and I filled their -- in those days they dipped the
14 brushes in ink and used pencil sharpeners. And I
15 sharpened the pencils. I erased the pages after they were
16 finished. And I did whatever an assistant or an office
17 boy would do.
18 Q. And at that time who was running or owned
19 Timely?
20 A. The company was owned by a man named Martin
21 Goodman.
22 Q. And he was the publisher?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did Timely -- is Timely a predecessor or
25 did Timely eventually become what we now know as Marvel?

JA2431
Page 12
1 S. LEE
2 A. That's right. It had many different names
3 over the years, and it finally became Marvel.
4 Q. And do you currently do work for Marvel?
5 A. Oh, yes. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And what does that involve?
7 A. Pardon me?
8 Q. What does that involve? What does your work
9 involve with Marvel?
10 A. Oh, mainly now I write occasional stories for
11 them. And I do promotion and publicity for them, and
12 whatever they ask me to do, really. I -- little things
13 that have to do -- sometimes I do cameos in their movies.
14 And I appear on panels at conventions. Things like that.
15 Q. You recently were Larry King in Iron Man 2?
16 A. Yeah, I did that, too.
17 Q. And do you receive compensation from Marvel?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, do you also have a company called Pow --
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. -- that you're involved in? And what is Pow?
22 A. Pow is an entertainment company. And what we
23 do is we seek to produce movies, television shows, things
24 for the Internet. Whatever we can in the field of
25 entertainment.

JA2432
Page 13
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And does that company Pow have a contractual
3 relationship with the Disney company?
4 A. Yes. They -- we have a first look. See, I'm
5 not good at the technical part of this, but it's some sort
6 of a first look deal. Whatever we create, we show to
7 Disney first, and hopefully they will want to make use of
8 it. If not, then we can bring it elsewhere.
9 Q. And you've had that deal with them for a
10 number of years?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Going back to the mid around 2006?
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. Now, I believe you just told us that you began
15 work at let's just call it Marvel unless, you know, we
16 specifically have to refer to one of the prior names,
17 around 1940 or so?
18 A. About then.
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Excuse me one minute. He's
20 got no access to this nor do I. Can you fix it?
21 THE REPORTER: I can.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Just two seconds.
23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 9:42 a.m.
24 (Recess.)
25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 9:46 a.m.

JA2433
Page 14
1 S. LEE
2 Q. BY MR. QUINN: You mentioned just a few
3 minutes ago before we took our short break that you had
4 started as, I guess, an apprentice effectively at Timely
5 Marvel around 1940. Did there come a time that you were
6 -- you got a promotion?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Tell us about how that occurred.
9 A. Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were really the only
10 two people there producing the comics, and for some reason
11 they left, and I was the only guy left in the department.
12 So Martin asked me if I could sort of function as the
13 editor and art director and writer until he hired someone,
14 a grown up. And I said, Sure. You know, when you're 18
15 years old, what do you know? I said, Sure, I can do it.
16 And I think he forgot to hire a grownup, because I was
17 there ever since.
18 Q. Right. 60 years later they still haven't
19 hired a grownup?
20 A. I'm still waiting.
21 Q. But you had grown up.
22 Now, did you have an understanding at the time
23 or did you come to have an understanding as to why Simon
24 and Kirby were let go?
25 A. I didn't know at the time, but I have heard

JA2434
Page 15
1 S. LEE
2 much later from a number of different people that it had
3 something to do with -- they were supposed to have been
4 working exclusively for Martin Goodman, and he found out
5 they had, I think, been doing some work for some other
6 company. Something like that.
7 Q. And he fired them, in effect?
8 A. I guess. Yeah.
9 Q. Now, when you became the editor, what were
10 your job responsibilities?
11 A. Well, I was writing a lot of the stories, and
12 I also would hire different artists to draw the stories,
13 artists, letterers, inkers, so forth.
14 Q. And was it your responsibility to hire the
15 writers and other artists and inkers and so forth and give
16 them assignments --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- with regard to what they were going to
19 actually be doing?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Leading.
22 Q. And who oversaw -- tell us a little bit how
23 that assignment process worked.
24 A. Well, it was my job to dream up new characters
25 or to continue with the characters we had and to pick the

JA2435
Page 16
1 S. LEE
2 best artists and the best writers unless I wrote something
3 my -- I had the privilege, which now that I think back, it
4 was rare, but I could either write stories myself or I
5 could hire writers. I couldn't write everything. And it
6 was my job to hire the artists to draw the stories. And I
7 did that for quite a number of years.
8 Q. And did you give instructions to the artists
9 as to how you wanted the story to go?
10 A. Oh, yes. That was my job as Art Director.
11 Q. So in addition to writing, you were also the
12 Art Director?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, who oversaw -- whose responsibility was
15 the creative editorial aspects of the comic books that
16 were created?
17 A. Well, the responsibility was mine, because I
18 had to answer to the publisher, Martin Goodman, and he had
19 to be happy with what I was doing.
20 Q. Did you have the ability to not only make
21 assignments but also to edit and change things that other
22 writers or artists did in connection with the comics?
23 A. Yeah. That was my job. If, for example, I
24 saw some art work, and I felt there wasn't enough action
25 on a page, or it was confusing, the reader might not know

JA2436
Page 17
1 S. LEE
2 what it was, or in a script if I felt there was too much
3 dialogue or too little dialogue, it was -- it was up to me
4 to make the stories as good as I could make them.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned that you did perform
6 services not only as an editor but also as a writer.
7 A. Mm-hmm.
8 Q. Did you consider the services you performed as
9 a writer part of your duties as the editor or something
10 additional?
11 A. Well, I never thought of it that way. I was
12 the Editor. I was the Art Director. And I was also a
13 staff writer.
14 Q. And how were you paid in connection with the
15 work that you did?
16 A. How was I paid?
17 Q. How were you paid in connection with the work
18 as Editor and as a writer?
19 A. I received a salary which paid me as Editor
20 and Art Director, but I got paid on a freelance basis for
21 the stories that I wrote.
22 Q. And when you say you were paid on a freelance
23 basis, how were you paid? On what basis?
24 A. The same as every other writer. I was paid
25 per page, so much money per page of script.

JA2437
Page 18
1 S. LEE
2 Q. There was a fixed amount of money --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- for each page?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was there a policy or did you have a
7 policy to pay writers and artists on that per page rate
8 whether or not the page was actually used or published?
9 A. Oh, yes. Even if we didn't publish -- if an
10 artist drew a 10-page story, and the artist rate was $20 a
11 page, I would put in a voucher for $200 for that artist.
12 Now, if -- and this happened rarely --- but if we decided
13 not to use that story, the artist would still keep the
14 money because he had done the work. It wasn't his fault.
15 So -- and that's the way it was. Everybody was paid per
16 page.
17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you had the right to
18 edit and make changes. Was there anyone else in addition
19 to you who had the right to edit and make changes --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. -- in the work? Who was that?
22 A. Oh, my boss, Martin Goodman, though he really
23 didn't edit. He would just call me into his office and
24 say: Jeez, Stan. I didn't think that story was good. Do
25 a better one next time. This book didn't sell so well. I

JA2438
Page 19
1 S. LEE
2 think you better see what's wrong. Maybe it needs a new
3 artist or a new writer." Things like that. But I did the
4 actual detail work.
5 Q. Were there times where Mr. Goodman would tell
6 you that he didn't want something to be done a certain way
7 --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- and you changed?
10 A. Yes, there were. Not that often, but yes.
11 Q. But that was your understanding of how the
12 process worked?
13 A. Oh, absolutely. He was the -- he was the
14 ultimate boss.
15 Q. And did he have the final say on what was
16 published back in the 1950s and 60s?
17 A. Yes. As long as he was the publisher, he did.
18 Q. Did Mr. Goodman ever edit any of your work?
19 A. Not too often except every so often he'd say:
20 I think you're putting in too much dialogue. I don't
21 think the readers want to read that much. And I always
22 disagreed with him, so I would sneak in as much dialogue
23 as I could.
24 Q. Now, was this pretty much the practice that
25 existed at Marvel beginning when you started as Editor in

JA2439
Page 20
1 S. LEE
2 the early 1940s and then up through the time that you
3 became the publisher in the late 1960s?
4 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague and ambiguous.
5 Q. You can answer.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did this process of assignment and so
8 forth come to be known as the Marvel method?
9 A. Oh, no. No. The Marvel method referred to
10 something else.
11 Q. Okay. Why don't you describe the Marvel
12 method.
13 A. There was a time when I was writing so many
14 stories that I couldn't keep up with the artists. I
15 couldn't feed them enough work. And, you see, the artists
16 were freelancers. Now, for example, if Jack was working
17 on a story, and Steve was waiting for me to give him a
18 story because he had had finished what he had been
19 doing --
20 Q. Jack being Jack Kirby?
21 A. Jack Kirby.
22 Q. And Steve Ditko?
23 A. Right. Or it could have been any of the
24 artists. But just using them as an example, if one of
25 them was waiting for a story while I was still finishing

JA2440
Page 21
1 S. LEE
2 writing the story for the other one, I couldn't keep him
3 waiting because he wasn't making money. He was a
4 freelancer. He wasn't on salary.
5 So I would say: Look, Steve, I don't have
6 time to write your script for you, but this is the idea
7 for the story. I'd like this fill in, and I'd like this
8 to happen, and in the end the hero ends by doing this.
9 You go ahead and draw it any way you want to, as long as
10 you keep to that main theme. And I will keep finishing
11 Jack's story. And when you finish drawing this one, I
12 will put in all the dialogue and the captions.
13 So in that way I could keep one artist working
14 while I was finishing something for another artist. That
15 worked out so well that I began doing that with just about
16 all the artists. I would just give them an idea for a
17 story, let them draw it any way they wanted to. Because
18 no matter how they drew it, even if they didn't do it as
19 well as I might have wanted, I was conceited enough to
20 think I could fix it up by the way I put the dialogue and
21 the captions in. And I'd make sense out of it even if
22 they may have made -- have done something wrong.
23 And I was able to keep a lot of artists busy
24 at the same time by using that system. And I have never
25 given that long an explanation before.

JA2441
Page 22
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Did you end up using that system -- and when
3 did this come into play? In the 1950s and 60s,
4 approximately?
5 A. Probably the 50s.
6 Q. During the time that you were the Editor?
7 A. I was always the Editor.
8 Q. Until the late 1960s when you became
9 publisher?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And in that process, did you always maintain
12 the ability to edit and make changes or reject what the
13 other writers or artists had created?
14 A. Oh, sure.
15 Q. And did you do that on a regular basis?
16 A. If something had to be rejected, sure.
17 Q. And that would include artwork that was done
18 by, for example, Jack Kirby?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And do you recall instances where that
21 occurred?
22 A. It's a strange thing. I didn't recall it --
23 recall those instances too well. But I was talking to
24 John Romita once. He was one of our artists. And we were
25 talking about whether I had every rejected any pages. And

JA2442
Page 23
1 S. LEE
2 I said sometimes I can't remember. And he said, "Stan,
3 don't you remember? Sometimes if somebody wanted a job as
4 an inker at our place," and an inker is somebody who goes
5 over the pencil drawings with ink so that they can be
6 reproduced better at the engraver, he said, "If we wanted
7 to test an inker to see how good he'd be, we would take
8 one of the pages of Jack's that you hadn't used and ask
9 the inker to ink over them as samples."
10 And I had forgotten about that, but John
11 Romita -- we were talking about that. It was a few years
12 ago he told me that.
13 Q. And when you had that conversation with Mr.
14 Romita, did that refresh your recollection that you had
15 from time to time rejected pages from Jack Kirby?
16 A. Yeah. Actually probably less from Kirby than
17 anybody else, because he was so good. But I had -- there
18 were times when things had to be rejected for a myriad
19 reasons.
20 (Lee Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
21 Q. Let me mark as Lee Exhibit 1 an affidavit,
22 it's a document entitled "Affidavit of Stan Lee," and ask
23 you to take a look at that.
24 MR. TOBEROFF: I would like to make a standing
25 objection, if you will agree, otherwise I have to make it

JA2443
Page 24
1 S. LEE
2 each time; that we were produced none of the documents
3 you're using as exhibits in this deposition. They could
4 have all been produced prior to this deposition to the
5 Defendants and they were not. So that's a standing
6 objection.
7 MR. QUINN: We're following -- just I don't
8 want to make a long statement here. We're following the
9 Federal rules in connection with our response to your
10 document request. We, of course, had asked you to make
11 document requests months ago, and you didn't. So you have
12 your standing objection, and we can move on.
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Since you responded, I need to
14 respond to what you said. You offered on multiple
15 occasions to produce those documents prior to any
16 deposition on an expedited basis. In fact, you sought the
17 expedited deposition of Stan Lee on the basis that you
18 would produce documents to us on an expedited basis. But
19 when push came to shove and we scheduled a deposition with
20 more than enough opportunity, but you failed to produce
21 the documents.
22 So you will agree that this is a standing
23 objection so we don't have to go through this every time?
24 MR. QUINN: Definitely you have your standing
25 objection.

JA2444
Page 25
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Thank you.
3 MR. QUINN: I totally disagree given the fact
4 that you rejected over and over again our offer. But in
5 any event, let's move on and save time.
6 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Okay. Now, could you take a
7 look at the last page of the document entitled Affidavit
8 of Stan Lee. It's page 8 of the affidavit.
9 And is that your signature?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And have you had an opportunity in the last
12 day or so to review this affidavit?
13 A. I'd have to refresh my memory.
14 Q. Go ahead and refresh your recollection again.
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And having reviewed the affidavit, is there
17 anything in the affidavit as far as you know today that's
18 inaccurate or wrong?
19 A. No, I don't think so.
20 Q. It's all truthful?
21 A. Mm-hmm. Yes.
22 Q. I'm just going to ask you a couple of
23 questions --
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. -- about some of the things that's in the

JA2445
Page 26
1 S. LEE
2 affidavit.
3 You just testified a little while ago about
4 the process that you utilized in connection with making
5 assignments, and so forth. And paragraphs, I guess, 3 and
6 4 of this affidavit also describe the same methodology.
7 In paragraph 4 of the affidavit it reads, and
8 I will just read it and you can follow along, it says,
9 "Timely," that would be Marvel, "however, always
10 maintained the right to direct the storylines and the
11 right to edit any aspect of the materials I submitted for
12 publication, including the characteristics of any existing
13 or new characters I utilized in the storylines."
14 Now, would that also be true with regard to
15 other writers and other artists; --
16 A. Wait.
17 Q. -- that Marvel maintained the right to direct
18 the storylines --
19 A. Oh, yes. The artists and -- it held for the
20 artists and the writers and the letterers and the inkers
21 and the colorists and everybody.
22 Q. And the next sentence says, "At that time it
23 was typical in the industry for comic book publishers to
24 own the rights to the materials that were created for them
25 for publication."

JA2446
Page 27
1 S. LEE
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that was your understanding --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that continued through the time that you
8 stopped being the editor in the late 1960s?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So that would include the period of the 1950s
11 and 60s?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it further goes on that -- and that would
14 apply not only to things that you created but also things
15 that were created by other writers and other artists like
16 Jack Kirby?
17 A. Yes. That's right.
18 Q. And that was the understanding in the industry
19 at the time?
20 A. That was my understanding.
21 Q. And it goes on to say that "Timely," referring
22 to Marvel, "would own whatever rights existed to all of
23 the materials I created or co-created for publication."
24 That was your understanding?
25 A. Yes, it was.

JA2447
Page 28
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And that was your understanding not only with
3 regard to materials you created but were created by the
4 other writers and artists who were working under your
5 direction?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you ever recollect, going back during
8 that period of time anyone, any of the other writers or
9 artists disagreeing or telling you that they didn't --
10 they didn't agree with that?
11 A. During this period of time? No.
12 Q. Now, in paragraph 11, there is a reference to
13 a Schedule A that's attached to this affidavit. And it
14 says that, "A list of some of the characters I created or
15 co-created for Timely, Marvel, appears on Schedule A."
16 And, to the best of your knowledge, is that a
17 list of some of the characters that you either created or
18 co-created?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And looking at paragraph 13 of the affidavit,
21 it states, I will read it into the record, "For years I,"
22 being you, "received checks from Timely and its successor
23 that bore a legend acknowledging that the payment was for
24 works for hire."
25 Do you recall -- that's a true statement;

JA2448
Page 29
1 S. LEE
2 right?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And do you recall that that was the practice
5 at the time?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. And was that the practice not only with
8 respect to you but with all the writers and artists?
9 A. Oh, yes.
10 Q. And that would include Mr. Kirby?
11 A. Yes. Everybody.
12 Q. Do you remember a woman who worked for Marvel
13 back at the time by the name of Millie Shuriff?
14 A. There was a Millie. I think she was in the
15 Bookkeeping Department. I never knew her last name or I
16 don't remember it.
18 Q. I'm going to mark an affidavit as Lee 2. And
19 I'm just going to ask you an a couple questions about the
20 affidavit. I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to point you
21 to the paragraph 7, which is on the second page of the
22 affidavit.
23 And it says that, Miss Shuriff says that "all
24 of the writing and drawing for the comic books was done on
25 a work made for hire basis."

JA2449
Page 30
1 S. LEE
2 That was your understanding?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Consistent?
5 And then it says in paragraph 8, that "The
6 work for hire language was affixed to each freelancer
7 check by way of an ink stamp."
8 Is that consistent with your recollection?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. That's all I have on that.
11 Let me go back for a second to you mentioned
12 the fact that the writers and artists during this period
13 of time were paid on a per page rate.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And were different artists and different
16 writers paid different rates?
17 A. Oh, yes, according to how valuable we thought
18 they were.
19 Q. And did it matter -- let's take a particular
20 artist, oh, say Jack Kirby. Did it matter whether he --
21 was Mr. Kirby one who got a higher page rate?
22 A. He got the highest because I considered him
23 our best artist.
24 Q. And with regard to his page rate, he got that
25 page rate whether or not the actual drawings were

JA2450
Page 31
1 S. LEE
2 ultimately published?
3 A. Oh, yes. Most of them. They were practically
4 all published, and, yeah, he always -- I made sure he got
5 the highest rate.
6 Q. Now, did it matter -- he always got -- he got
7 the highest rate, but he got the same rate, whether it was
8 for Fantastic Four or for The Hulk or for -- in other
9 words, he wasn't paid a different rate based on the
10 characters?
11 A. As far as I can remember, he wasn't paid a
12 different rate. I wouldn't swear to it, because there may
13 -- I don't remember ever giving him a different rate. Let
14 me put it that way.
15 Q. That's what I'm asking, your best
16 recollection.
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. That's your best recollection?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a few questions,
21 general questions, about kind of creation of the comic
22 book. And perhaps nobody knows it better than you do.
23 In general terms, and let's focus on the
24 period 1950s and 60s, which is the relevant period in this
25 case. What was -- I'd like you to tell us the role of the

JA2451
Page 32
1 S. LEE
2 different contributors to a comic book, the writer, the
3 artist, penciler, the inker, the colorist, the letterer.
4 What did each guy do, or woman, if there were any?
5 A. Well, somebody has to come up with the idea
6 for the script itself. Then it has to be written. So the
7 first thing that happens is you either get a script by the
8 writer, or, in my case, you'd get an outline saying what
9 the story is.
10 Then it would go to the penciler, who would
11 draw the script in pencil.
12 Then it would go to the letterer, who would
13 letter the dialogue balloons and the captions in ink over
14 the pencil drawings.
15 Q. Mm-hmm.
16 A. Then it would go to the inker, who would ink
17 the pencil drawings. So now the page had the lettering
18 and the artwork done in ink so that it could go to the
19 engraver, and he could photograph it or whatever he did
20 with it.
21 Then in those days we would get back from the
22 engraver some sheets of paper, eight by ten usually, that
23 were called silver prints. And there was a silver print
24 for each page. And they would go to the colorist, who
25 would use some kind of aniline dye paints, and they would

JA2452
Page 33
1 S. LEE
2 color the pages, which were then sent back to the engraver
3 or the printer, I was never sure, but to tell that person
4 how we wanted it colored when it was printed.
5 The engraver and/or printer used those colored
6 sheets as a guide to -- so they would know how to color
7 the pages.
8 Q. Right, actually do the printing.
9 A. And that's -- I think that's all. There was
10 the writer, the penciler, the letterer, the inker, the
11 colorist. Of course we had proofreaders and sometimes we
12 would make changes. I, as the editor, would often look
13 over a page and say, I don't like this drawing, let's fix
14 it, or, let's make this a long shot, not a close up. Or,
15 you know, whatever I would do.
16 I didn't do that too much because it cost us
17 money, and it wasted time, so only when it had to be done.
18 Q. Now, were all these people working in the same
19 room?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How did that work?
22 A. No. Usually the production people were -- the
23 people who made the paste ups.
24 Q. Right.
25 A. But very often the artists worked at home. We

JA2453
Page 34
1 S. LEE
2 did a lot of shipping things around. We would -- I would
3 talk on the phone or in person to the artist, giving -- or
4 I would type out an outline, depending how we worked. And
5 the artist usually went home and penciled it, bring it in
6 to me, I would approve it or not approve it, or have what
7 changes needed to be made.
8 Then I would send it to the inker. We very
9 rarely had an inker who was really on staff. At a
10 different address the inker would do it and ship it back
11 to me. And if I liked it, usually it was okay, it would
12 then go to a letterer.
13 Now, often the letterers were on staff, but we
14 also had a number of letterers who worked at home. In
15 fact, our main letterers, Sam Rosen and Artie Simick, they
16 both worked at home, so we had to ship the artwork again.
17 They would letter it, bring it back.
18 We had a colorist who worked on staff, but we
19 also had colorists who worked at home.
20 So again, it either was done on staff or we
21 shipped it. We were always moving and shipping things
22 back and forth.
23 Q. There was no FedEx back then.
24 A. No FedEx. No. It was very difficult. And we
25 had a small staff really in the office, usually one

JA2454
Page 35
1 S. LEE
2 letterer who would make corrections on things. And
3 sometimes one of the people also did coloring. But mostly
4 everything was done freelance and shipped around the city.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned all the different books
6 involved, but you mentioned first somebody had to come up
7 with the idea.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Was that your role for the most part?
10 A. Pretty much. Yeah.
11 Q. And after you would come up with the idea, how
12 would you communicate that idea to the writer, or in some
13 cases you were the writer, but a different writer or the
14 artist?
15 A. Well, we would meet, and I would talk about
16 it, and I would usually have, well, often have something.
17 I'd write out a brief outline of what the idea was.
18 Q. A synopsis?
19 A. A synopsis. Or sometimes I would just talk it
20 with the artist. It really depended on how well I knew
21 the artist, how well we worked together, how familiar we
22 were with each other's style.
23 Q. Now, typically who came up with the ideas for
24 stories at Marvel during the 50s and 60s?
25 A. Well, in the 50s, in the early 50s, we were

JA2455
Page 36
1 S. LEE
2 doing a lot of odd books. And very often the writers of
3 those odd books would come up with their own, although I
4 did most of them.
5 In the 60s, the ideas for the new characters
6 originated with me because that was my responsibility.
7 And what would happen is the publisher, Martin Goodman,
8 for example, with the Fantastic Four, he called me into
9 his office one day. And he said, "I understand that
10 National Comics," which later changed its name to DC, "but
11 I understand that National Comics has a book called The
12 Justice League. And it's selling very well. I want you
13 to come up with a team of superheroes. Let's do something
14 like that."
15 So it was my responsibility to come up with
16 such a team. And I dreamed up the Fantastic Four, and I
17 wrote a brief outline. And at that time, you know, I gave
18 that to Jack Kirby, who did a wonderful job on it.
19 With The Hulk and the X-Men and Iron Man, I
20 couldn't -- I wanted to use Jack for everything, but I
21 couldn't because he was just one guy. So with Iron Man I
22 gave that script to Don Heck after I came up with the
23 idea.
24 With Daredevil, I gave that to Bill Everett.
25 I think with Iron Man I still wanted Jack to

JA2456
Page 37
1 S. LEE
2 do the cover, though, for it.
3 With Spider-Man, that was kind of an
4 interesting thing. I thought Spider-Man would be a good
5 strip, so I wanted Jack to do it. And I gave it to him.
6 And I said, Jack, now you always draw these characters so
7 heroically, but I don't want this guy to be too
8 heroic-looking. He's kind of a nebbishy guy.
9 Q. Would we call him a nerd today?
10 A. I would say so. Yeah.
11 Anyway, Jack, who glamorizes everything, even
12 though he tried to nerd him up, the guy looked still a
13 little bit too heroic for me. So I said: All right,
14 forget it, Jack. I will give it to somebody else.
15 Jack didn't care. He had so much to do.
16 Q. Who did you give it to?
17 A. I gave it to Steve Ditko. His style was
18 really more really what Spider-Man should have been. So
19 Steve did the Spider-Man thing. Although, again, I think
20 I had Jack sketch out a cover for it because I always had
21 a lot of confidence in Jack's covers.
22 Q. When the covers were done, were they done
23 before or after the actual work was created?
24 A. You know, I don't think there was a hard and
25 fast rule for that. I really can't remember. I think

JA2457
Page 38
1 S. LEE
2 you'd have had to have done some of the work first, so in
3 doing the cover you knew what the characters looked like.
4 Q. And did you take particular interest in the
5 cover?
6 A. Oh, that was my specialty. The covers in
7 those days, the covers were the most important thing.
8 Because we didn't have fans the way we do now. Today,
9 fans go to a book store, Did the latest Fantastic Four
10 come in yet? In those days we sold according to how
11 attractive a book looked on the newsstand. A kid would
12 walk in the news stand, and whatever caught his eye he'd
13 pick up.
14 So we made sure -- and this was something that
15 my publisher Martin Goodman, he was an expert in. He
16 taught me a lot about what to do to a cover to make it
17 stand out, what kind of color schemes to use, and so
18 forth.
19 So I paid a lot of attention to covers. They
20 were very important.
21 Q. And you would make changes in covers?
22 A. Oh, sure.
23 Q. And you mentioned that you thought that Kirby
24 actually did the cover on Spider-Man. What was -- the
25 cover that he did was based on his original drawing or was

JA2458
Page 39
1 S. LEE
2 it based on what Ditko had done?
3 A. Oh, it would have had to have been based, I
4 think, on what Ditko did because it would have to look
5 like the Spider-Man.
6 Q. The nerdy Spider-Man?
7 A. I would think so. Well, as Spider-Man he
8 didn't look nerdy. He looked nerdy as Peter Parker, yeah.
9 Q. Fair enough. Now, you mentioned that you
10 would have meetings from time to time, I guess, plotting
11 conferences. Do you recall -- and let me mark as -- we'll
12 mark actually two documents, although they're related, an
13 article that was written by a man by the name of Nat
14 Freedland in the New York Herald Tribune dated January
15 9th, 1966.
16 Do you recall the article? I'm going to show
17 you copies of it.
18 Let's mark this as Lee 3.
19 And Lee 4 --
22 A. I hate that article.
23 Q. I'm only going to ask you about one part of
24 it.
25 In the reprint there's a reference, and I will

JA2459
Page 40
1 S. LEE
2 just read it into the record, that says that, "The
3 plotting conference at the end of this article was for
4 FF No. 55," FF would be the Fantastic Four?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. " -- No. 55 and issued just after the most
7 prolific period of new character creation on the series."
8 I want you to take a look at the end of this
9 article. Either one. Yeah, that's the one.
10 And specifically there is a paragraph that
11 begins right here, Mr. Lee (pointing), that starts.
12 Lee arrives at his plots in sort of ESP
13 sessions with the artists. He inserts the
14 dialogue after the picture layout comes in and
15 then it goes on. Here he is in action at a
16 weekly Friday morning summit meeting with Jack
17 "King" Kirby a veteran comic book artist, a man
18 who created many of the visions of your childhood
19 and mine.
20 Then it goes on for the next several
21 paragraphs just to describe the plotting conference. And
22 you can just take a quick look at that.
23 I want to just ask you whether, in fact, this
24 is consistent with your recollection of how typically
25 plotting conferences would be -- would go back in this

JA2460
Page 41
1 S. LEE
2 period in the 1960s.
3 A. Well, pretty much, except this is written by
4 somebody who I don't know why but he must have taken a
5 very unfair dislike to Jack. And it is so derogatory.
6 It's just terrible the way he pictured Jack in this
7 article. I can't tell you how badly I felt.
8 At any rate, this is the way the conferences
9 went. Very often Jack would say more than "mm-hmm." You
10 know, he might contribute something or he might say,
11 "Stan, let's also do this or do that." I mean, we had
12 conversations.
13 But aside from that, yes, we would get
14 together. I would tell Jack the main idea that I wanted,
15 and then we would talk about it, and we'd come up with
16 something.
17 Q. And that was fairly typical of how a plotting
18 conference would go?
19 A. Yeah, in that sense. Yeah.
20 Q. Now, during the period of time that you've
21 been testifying about, did Marvel ever buy work that was
22 created by one of the writers or freelancers on spec as
23 opposed to having the material being part of an assignment
24 that you would give him?
25 A. Not that I remember. Excuse me. You know,

JA2461
Page 42
1 S. LEE
2 they may have made deals I don't know about.
3 Q. I'm just asking --
4 A. But nothing that I remember. Right.
5 Q. -- in your recollection --
6 A. Right.
7 Q. -- having been there all that period of
8 time.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Now, when you would give out an assignment,
11 how did that work? Did you give them deadlines? How
12 did --
13 A. Yeah. Every strip had a deadline, because
14 these books had to go out every month. And it was very
15 important that the deadline be met. Because if a book was
16 late, we had already paid the printer for that press time.
17 And if the book wasn't delivered in time, we still had to
18 pay the printer. So it was a total loss to us. So the
19 deadlines were very important. And the artists always
20 knew this has to be delivered by thus-and-such a date.
21 Q. Now, in connection with the way that artists
22 and freelancers were paid, did they get paid whether or
23 not a particular book or comic was successful?
24 A. Oh, sure. They were paid before the book went
25 on sale. We didn't know how successful it would be. They

JA2462
Page 43
1 S. LEE
2 were paid when they delivered the artwork.
3 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr.
4 Goodman about what his investment and his risk was in the
5 context of being the publisher?
6 A. Yeah. Once in a while -- I remember there was
7 one time some artists had wanted an increase in their page
8 rate, and they felt they weren't getting paid enough. And
9 Martin was in a pretty gloomy mood that day, and he said
10 to me.
11 You know what they don't realize? They
12 don't realize the risk that I'm taking. Because
13 if the books don't sell, it costs -- I lose a lot
14 of money. And I have no guarantee the books will
15 sell. And we have periods for month after month
16 after month where I'm losing money where the
17 books don't sell. But I don't cut their rate. I
18 don't fire them. I try to keep going as much as
19 possible.
20 And he gave me this whole thing from the
21 publisher's point of view.
22 Q. And did you understand that point of view?
23 A. Well, yeah, I could understand it from his
24 point of view. I could understand it. Yes. Just to add
25 to that, he said he was the fella taking all the risk.

JA2463
Page 44
1 S. LEE
2 That's the thing that he stressed.
3 Q. Let me go back to the covers for a second.
4 Now, who typically designed the covers for the
5 comic books? How did that process work?
6 A. I usually, almost always, would say what I
7 wanted the cover to be. Sometimes I'd make a little
8 thumbnail sketch. I'm no great artist, but I would just
9 indicate where I wanted the character.
10 Because, as I said, we considered the covers
11 the most important part of the book. And I was very
12 careful about the covers. And I would say what the
13 illustration should be, where I wanted the caption, where
14 I wanted a blurb, how I wanted -- whether I wanted a
15 closeup or a long shot, whether I wanted it to be an
16 action scene or just a dramatic scene. That I spent a lot
17 of time on that.
18 Q. And after you'd give direction, were the
19 covers done before or after the pencils were complete?
20 A. It didn't -- it could have been either way.
21 Q. Either way. And did you ever reject a cover
22 and ask him to go back and redo it?
23 A. Oh, sure.
24 Q. Now, you mentioned also the practice was to
25 pay writers, artists, and the others inkers, and so forth

JA2464
Page 45
1 S. LEE
2 on a per page basis. And they had different rates and so
3 forth.
4 During the period of time that you were there,
5 were writers or artists ever -- did they ever get
6 royalties from Marvel for the work they did or was it just
7 a per page?
8 A. While I was there I don't remember any
9 royalties.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Is this a good time for a
11 break? We've been going for about an hour.
12 MR. QUINN: I think it's a very good time.
13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 10:29 a.m.
14 (Recess.)
16 Q. BY MR. QUINN: We were discussing a number of
17 different items generally about the process that you
18 oversaw as editor back in the 50s and 60s. And now I want
19 to focus specifically on issues relating to Jack Kirby.
20 You're aware that this is a dispute with the
21 Kirby heirs?
22 A. (Nods head up and down.)
23 Q. You've got to say yes on the record.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When did you first meet Jack Kirby?

JA2465
Page 46
1 S. LEE
2 A. Well, the first day that I came to work at
3 Timely Comics, which was either '39 or '40.
4 Q. And over the course of the years, what was
5 your relationship with Mr. Kirby?
6 A. Well, on my part it was very cordial. I was a
7 big fan of his from the beginning.
8 Q. Now I'm going to focus on the period of time
9 at issue in the 50s, and late 50s and early 60s. At what
10 point in time did Mr. Kirby come back to Marvel or Timely?
11 A. I don't remember the year, but there was a
12 time that he left, and he did some work for DC Comics, and
13 then he came back. Yes.
14 Q. And by the late 1950s he had returned?
15 A. The late 1950s -- 60s.
16 Q. Let me rephrase the question.
17 By 1960, he was back working at Marvel, in
18 that general area?
19 A. Maybe he left two times. Maybe he left in the
20 50s, and that's what you're referring to. He was back by
21 '60.
22 Q. Right.
23 A. That may be. Because I know there was a time
24 later in the 60s that he left and he came back, I think.
25 Q. Now focusing on the period when he was at

JA2466
Page 47
1 S. LEE
2 Marvel in the 60s, what was Jack Kirby's role at Marvel?
3 A. The same as it had always -- wait a minute.
4 Did you say in the 50s?
5 Q. No, focusing on the 60s.
6 A. As far as I know, the same as it had always
7 been. He was our top artist, and I gave him what I
8 thought were our most important projects.
9 Q. And what was -- what were his job
10 responsibilities as an artist?
11 A. Well, to draw the strip as well and as excited
12 -- excitingly and grippingly as possible, and draw it in
13 such a way that the readers would want to see more, more,
14 more.
15 Q. And who had the right to direct and supervise
16 Mr. Kirby's work?
17 A. That was me.
18 Q. And who had the ability to edit and control
19 Kirby's work?
20 A. That was my job.
21 Q. And who decided which comic books and
22 characters Kirby would draw?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. And who gave him those assignments?
25 A. I did.

JA2467
Page 48
1 S. LEE
2 Q. As best you can recall, did Mr. Kirby ever
3 submit work to you or to Marvel that he had done on spec?
4 A. Not that I remember.
5 Q. And you mentioned the situation with taking
6 him off the Spider-Man book. In addition to that, were
7 there other instances where you did edit Kirby's work?
8 A. Well, I edited everybody's work. I don't
9 remember taking him off anything else.
10 Q. Do you remember Mr. Kirby ever refusing to
11 make any of the edits or changes that you made?
12 A. As a matter of fact, no. Jack was really
13 great to work with.
14 Q. To your knowledge, during this period in the
15 60s, was Kirby working only for Marvel or was he doing
16 work for other comic books?
17 A. I thought he was working just for us.
18 Q. Now, typically, what was the work product
19 after you had given Kirby an assignment? What was the
20 work product that you would receive back from Kirby?
21 A. I would receive back usually, if the book was
22 20 pages long, I'd receive back 20 beautifully drawn pages
23 in pencil which told a story.
24 Q. And did Mr. Kirby ever suggest dialogue?
25 A. Not orally, but what he would do, when I would

JA2468
Page 49
1 S. LEE
2 give Jack a rough idea for what the story should be, and
3 he went home and he drew it in his own way, laying it out
4 the way he thought it would be best, he would put in the
5 borders, the margins of the pages, he would put little
6 notes letting -- so I would understand what he was getting
7 at with each drawing, and he would sometimes put dialogue
8 suggestions also.
10 Q. Let me show you what I'm going to mark as I
11 believe it's Lee 5, a magazine entitled "Jack Kirby
12 Collection 54." And I just want to point you to some
13 portions of that.
14 THE REPORTER: Do you want me to put the
15 sticker actually on it?
16 MR. QUINN: Yeah, you can put it on.
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Can I have a copy, please?
18 MR. QUINN: I'm sorry.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Thank you.
20 Q. BY MR. QUINN: We tagged a particular section
21 that has a little blue tag on it. You can open to that.
22 See the little --
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. And it's page 59 of this exhibit. And on the
25 top it talks about being fantastic penciling and the size.

JA2469
Page 50
1 S. LEE
2 It says, "What would a Lee and Kirby issue be without the
3 Fantastic Four being heavily represented?" And then it
4 has a representation, I guess, of the penciling or the
5 drawing done by Kirby in the first instance.
6 Do you recognize the notes around the pages?
7 A. Well, that's Jack's handwriting. That's the
8 way he wrote them. Yes.
9 Q. And could you tell us, for example, in this
10 instance I see that there's a dialogue that's actually in
11 the different blocks. Tell us who did that dialogue. How
12 was the process done?
13 A. Well, I wrote the dialogue and the captions,
14 but Jack would give me notes. For example, in panel 4 of
15 that page, the next to the last panel --
16 Q. Right.
17 A. -- Jack wrote what he suggested the dialogue
18 might be. "I will rule. My years underground will end."
19 That was to let me know what he felt the fellow should be
20 doing or saying.
21 So I wrote, "My conquest will be complete. I,
22 the Mole Man, banished from my fellow men half a life time
23 ago, will return at last as Master of the Earth."
24 Very often I would write dialogue to fill up
25 spaces. In other words, I also indicated where the

JA2470
Page 51
1 S. LEE
2 dialogue balloons and the captions should go on the
3 artwork. And I might not have written so much if he had
4 made the face bigger, but inasmuch as there was that space
5 on the upper right-hand part of the page, I put in more
6 dialogue to sort of dress up the -- balance the panel with
7 picture and dialogue. That was something else I had
8 mentioned but I concentrated very much on.
9 For example, in the panel above it, that panel
10 was an interesting panel, and I didn't want to -- I only
11 used three lines of caption. I didn't want to crowd that
12 with copy.
13 And the same with the first panel. There's so
14 much going on, that I only had a two-line caption that
15 only went part way across, because I wanted the reader to
16 enjoy looking at Jack's artwork with no interference.
17 Q. And who was it who decided where those --
18 where the dialogue would go?
19 A. I did. I always made the indications for the
20 letter -- before giving my strips to a letterer, I always
21 indicated in pencil after I typed out the dialogue where
22 the dialogue should go in the panel. And the sound
23 effects, also.
24 Q. And this was the typical way that you would
25 work with Mr. Kirby?

JA2471
Page 52
1 S. LEE
2 A. With all the artists. Yeah.
3 Q. And who had the final say with regard to what
4 was going to be written in those panels?
5 A. Well, I was the editor. I did.
6 Q. So just looking at some of the other panels,
7 who -- let's go to the next page up on top in the second
8 panel.
9 A. Mm-hmm.
10 Q. Read me what Kirby had written in.
11 A. Let me see if I can make it out. "As it
12 leaves his hands, the staff's power blows and rocks" --
13 something -- back." I can't make out the word.
14 Q. Right. And what did you substitute for this?
15 A. Well, I thought it was so self-explanatory,
16 and design wise I felt a big sound effect would be good.
17 So I lettered in the word "batoom" (phonetic) for the
18 letterer. I did it in pencil so the letterer would follow
19 it, and I tried to make it part of the design of the
20 panel.
21 Q. Was that something that you typically did?
22 Let's look at another, the next page.
23 A. The next page?
24 Q. I'm sorry, two pages over which would be 62.
25 I see in the third panel --

JA2472
Page 53
1 S. LEE
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. -- there is Shaboom.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Is that work that you did?
6 A. Absolutely. In fact, we used to have fun with
7 it. Sometimes I remember there was one story where I did
8 a sound effect like that with three Os in it, and on the
9 bottom I wrote a little caption saying something like, "As
10 every Marvel fan would know, the third O is silent." The
11 kids used to get kicks out of those kind of things. I
12 didn't do it in this one because this was too dramatic.
14 Q. Let me also mark as -- this would be Lee 6, a
15 document that the cover says "Fantastic Four."
16 A. Mm-hmm.
17 Q. August. And it says 15 cents. Those were the
18 days. Back in the day.
19 A. Started out at a dime.
20 Q. And looking we've also clipped one of the
21 panels. Actually the panel it's the same as in the
22 drawing. There's a -- should be a blue thing there.
23 Yeah.
24 A. Oh, the blue thing. Sorry.
25 Q. Go to that page. And then take a look at --

JA2473
Page 54
1 S. LEE
2 compare. Is that the same page that in Lee 6 in its final
3 version that is in --
4 A. Oh, it seems to be. Yes.
5 Q. With the same dialogue that you wrote in?
6 A. Mm-hmm.
7 Q. So this would be -- this --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Stan --
10 A. This is the way it looked printed.
11 Q. This is the way it came out to the public.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. That now includes the work of the inkers and
14 the colorists and all the other folks.
15 A. And the letterer.
16 Q. And the letterer. Now, as part of the way you
17 worked with Mr. Kirby and the assignments you gave, did
18 you ever ask Mr. Kirby to create new characters? Or did
19 he ever create new characters in the context of the work
20 and the assignment you gave him?
21 A. Well, he, in the context of the work, I would
22 give him the outline for the story. I might add, that as
23 we went on, and we had been working together for years,
24 the outlines I gave him were skimpier and skimpier. I
25 might say something like: In this story let's have Dr.

JA2474
Page 55
1 S. LEE
2 Doom kidnap Sue Storm, and the Fantastic Four has to go
3 out and rescue them. And in the end, Dr. doom does this
4 and that. And that might have been all I would tell him
5 for a 20-page story.
6 Q. Dr. Doom --
7 A. Dr. Doom being the villain.
8 Q. The villain.
9 A. And Jack would just put in all the details and
10 everything. And then it was -- I enjoyed that. It was
11 like doing a crossword puzzle. I get the panels back, and
12 I have to put in the dialogue and make it all tie
13 together.
14 So we worked well together that way for years,
15 but, I'm sorry, I forgot what your question was.
16 Q. No, no, no. Whether during that period of
17 time was it part of his job to create new characters from
18 time to time?
19 A. Oh, that's why I mentioned.
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts. Go ahead.
21 Q. Go ahead.
22 A. That's why I mentioned that, because I might
23 give him a very skimpy outline like let Dr. Doom kidnap
24 Sue. Now, when he drew the strip, he might introduce a
25 lot of characters that he came up with in the story. He

JA2475
Page 56
1 S. LEE
2 might have decide to have Dr. Doom send some giant robot
3 to get Sue Storm, and he would make up the robot. Or
4 there might be some other people. Sure, Jack would often
5 introduce a lot of new characters in the stories.
6 Q. And that was part of what his assignment was?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And did other artists do the same thing?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To your recollection, were there any
11 characters that Kirby had created before he was working
12 with you or anyone at Marvel that he brought to Marvel and
13 then were then published by Marvel?
14 A. No, I don't believe so. I don't recall any.
15 Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Captain America, for
16 God's sake. He and Joe Simon had created Captain America.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. Now, by the time in the 60s, Jack came to work
19 for us, we weren't -- there was no more Captain America.
20 We weren't publishing it because Martin Goodman thought it
21 was just a World War II character and people wouldn't be
22 interested in it anymore.
23 I always loved the character, so I decided to
24 bring it back. And I tried to write a story where he had
25 been frozen in a glacier for years, and they found him and

JA2476
Page 57
1 S. LEE
2 he came back to life, and so forth. And I tried to give
3 him some personality where he always felt -- he was an
4 anachronism. He was living in our day, but yet he had the
5 values of 20 or 30 years ago. And I tried to make him a
6 little bit interesting.
7 And Jack would draw him. And Jack just drew
8 him so beautifully, and the stories worked out so well
9 that he became part of the Marvel superhero characters,
10 the one that I did not create. Yeah. And he's a great
11 character, and they'll be making movies of him soon.
12 Q. Other than Captain America, you can't remember
13 any --
14 A. No, I don't remember any others.
15 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever shop a
16 character around to other publishers before bringing it to
17 Marvel?
18 A. Not that I know of.
19 Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr.
20 Kirby as to who owned the rights to particular characters?
21 A. No. Again, not that I can recall.
22 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Kirby was
23 aware of Marvel's policy that everything was work for
24 hire?
25 A. I took it for granted. We had never discussed

JA2477
Page 58
1 S. LEE
2 it.
3 MR. TOBEROFF: Did you hear my objection?
4 THE REPORTER: No, I didn't. Sorry.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Leading.
6 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
7 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever try to
8 use a storyline or a character that he and you created
9 together for Marvel when he left Marvel and went to DC or
10 someplace else?
11 A. Did he take any stories we had done and use --
12 not that I know of.
13 Q. Now, we talked generally about how the
14 freelancers were paid. How was Mr. Kirby paid?
15 A. When he brought in -- like everybody else.
16 When he'd bring in his artwork, he'd hand in a voucher.
17 We had pre -- you know, pre-prepared voucher forms. And I
18 would, of course, okay the voucher, and it would go to the
19 Bookkeeping Department.
20 Q. Based on the number of pages?
21 A. Yeah, so much per page.
22 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Kirby ever receive
23 any royalties from Marvel?
24 A. Did he receive royalties?
25 Q. Royalties from Marvel.

JA2478
Page 59
1 S. LEE
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Now, you indicated that Kirby had left and
4 come back to Marvel at several different periods of time.
5 To your knowledge, when Mr. Kirby was working for other
6 comic book publishers, did he do some of his own writing?
7 A. I think so. I didn't really follow it, but I
8 think when he worked for DC that he may have written some
9 of the characters he created. But I don't know for sure.
10 Q. Do you know whether after he left Marvel he
11 had -- his characters had the same kind of success that
12 the characters that came about during the period of time
13 he was at Marvel?
14 A. Well, I don't think they became as successful
15 as the Marvel heroes, no.
16 Q. I want to focus specifically on the creation
17 of a number of the specific characters that -- we talked
18 about several, but I want to go into them in a little bit
19 more detail.
20 And let's start with the Fantastic Four. You
21 actually referenced them earlier. Tell me to the best you
22 can recall, how did the idea for the Fantastic Four come
23 about, and who they were, and what was the back story with
24 regard to the Fantastic Four.
25 A. Well, as I mentioned, Martin Goodman asked me

JA2479
Page 60
1 S. LEE
2 to create a group of heroes because he found out that
3 National Comics had a group that was selling well. So I
4 went home, and I thought about it, and I -- I wanted to
5 make these different than the average comic book heroes.
6 I didn't want them to have a double -- a secret identity.
7 And I wanted to make it as realistic as
8 possible. Instead of them living in Gotham City or
9 Metropolis, I felt I will have them live in New York City.
10 And instead of the obligatory teenager Johnny Storm
11 driving a whiz bang V8, he would drive a Chevy Corvette.
12 I wanted everything real, and I wanted their
13 relationship to be real. Instead of a girl who didn't
14 know that the hero was really a superhero, not only did
15 she know who he was, but they were engaged to be married,
16 and she also had a superpower.
17 So, you know, things like that. And I thought
18 I would try that. So I wrote up a very brief synopsis
19 about that, and naturally I called Jack, because he was
20 our best artist, and I asked him if he would do it. He
21 seemed to like the idea. Took the synopsis, and he drew
22 the story and put in his own touches, which were
23 brilliant.
24 And it worked out beautifully. Books sold,
25 and that was the start of the Marvel success, you might

JA2480
Page 61
1 S. LEE
2 say.
3 Q. And tell me or tell us all your thinking in
4 the creating the four different characters, Mr. Fantastic,
5 the Invisible Woman, the Human Torch, and The Thing.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts.
7 A. I'm sorry?
9 A. Tell you what?
10 Q. Tell us what was your thinking with regard to
11 or the idea behind these specific four characters.
12 A. Well, I wanted them to be a team, but I wanted
13 them to act like real people. So they didn't always get
14 along well. I wanted one of them to be -- we called him
15 The Thing, to be kind of a very powerful ugly guy who
16 would be pathetic because -- they all got their
17 superpowers by being in a spaceship that was hit by cosmic
18 rays. And Mr. Fantastic got the ability to stretch his
19 limbs. The girl Sue Storm had the ability to become
20 invisible and surround herself with the force field. And
21 the boy Johnny Storm, her brother, was able to burst into
22 flame and fly.
23 I took that from an old Marvel book, one of
24 Timely Comics' first books called The Human Torch. I
25 always loved that character who had been an android, a

JA2481
Page 62
1 S. LEE
2 robot or something. But I felt I'm going to give Johnny
3 Storm that power. He can fly and burst into flame.
4 So we had a guy who can stretch, a girl who
5 could be invisible, a man who was an ugly monster. And
6 again, to go against type, I thought I'd make the ugly
7 monster kind of a funny guy. He's pathetic, but he's also
8 the comedy relief. And he was always arguing and fighting
9 with The Human Torch, who was always trying to give him a
10 hot foot. And he was always trying to grab him and
11 throttle him.
12 They all loved each other, but they never got
13 along well. The more they fought amongst themselves, the
14 more the readers loved it. And that was the way I
15 envisioned them.
17 Q. Now I'm going to mark as Lee I believe it's 7,
18 the next exhibit.
19 A. There's no little blue thing.
20 Q. I'll get you there. It's a document that's
21 actually a magazine entitled "Alter Ego, the Comic Book
22 Artist Collection."
23 And are you familiar with the Alter Ego?
24 A. Oh, yes. It's a well known fanzine.
25 Q. And is a man by the name of Roy Thomas --

JA2482
Page 63
1 S. LEE
2 A. Mm-hmm.
3 Q. -- that is I guess involved in publishing the
4 Alter Ego?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Tell us who Mr. Thomas is.
7 A. Well, Roy Thomas is somebody that I met years
8 ago. He came up to the office for a job as a writer. And
9 unlike a lot of comic book writers, he had been an English
10 teacher in school. Even though he was a fan, that sort of
11 set him a little above the others.
12 And I hired him, and he began to write a lot
13 of our stories. And then when I left to become the
14 publisher, I appointed him as Editor-in-Chief to replace
15 me.
16 Q. And that would have been somewhere around
17 1968?
18 A. I guess.
19 Q. And let me call your attention to an article
20 that starts on page 32 of Stan Lee 7. And specifically
21 this is an article entitled "A Fantastic First," authored
22 by Roy Thomas.
23 And are you familiar with this article?
24 A. I read it years ago.
25 Q. And specifically it's a discussion about the

JA2483
Page 64
1 S. LEE
2 creation of the Fantastic Four. And do you recall when
3 you read it did you see anything that was wrong or
4 incorrect in the article?
5 A. I guess not. No.
6 Q. There's a recreation of a note in the article
7 that reads, and it says, "Hi Roy, I found the FF No. 1
8 synopsis."
9 A. Oh, he must have been asking me if I could
10 ever get it for him.
11 Q. And then you go on. And that's your
12 handwritten note? That's your signature?
13 A. Oh, yes.
14 Q. And you recall generally sending him this
15 note?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it goes on to say, "Will mail it off to
18 you on Monday. It's not clear enough to fax." Then it
19 says, "Sorry to say I have no other synopses on file.
20 Never thought to save any. To this day I will never know
21 what made me save FF No. 1 synopsis. I certainly never
22 thought anyone would care about it later on."
23 And then across on the other page there is a
24 document, a recreation of a document that says, "Synopsis
25 the Fantastic Four July '61 No. 1."

JA2484
Page 65
1 S. LEE
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And then it says, Story No. 1, Introduction,
4 "Meet the Fantastic Four."
5 Is that the synopsis that you wrote back in
6 1961?
7 A. This is the original synopsis that I wrote,
8 and I gave it to Jack. And of course, after that we
9 discussed it, and we embellished it, and we made little
10 changes. But this was the beginning of it. Yeah.
11 Q. You mentioned in your note to Mr. Thomas that
12 you hadn't saved others because you didn't think anyone
13 would ever -- did you create other synopses from time to
14 time?
15 A. Oh, yeah.
16 Q. In the article on the first page, and I will
17 just read it to you, it says, Mr. Thomas writes,
18 "Actually, this wasn't the first early 60s synopsis of
19 Stan's I'd seen."
20 And it says, "See later part of the article.
21 And when I had gone to work for him in July 1965, I had
22 learned that he was increasingly dispensing with written
23 synopses with Marvel artists, often working merely from
24 brief conversations in person or over the phone."
25 A. That's right.

JA2485
Page 66
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And is he referring to what you previously
3 testified how the Marvel method came about?
4 A. Yes. And you see also these artists were so
5 good, and I had worked with them for so long, that I knew
6 what I could expect from them. And I think they knew what
7 I expected, and what I meant when I would give them a few
8 words explaining a story. It's like two comedians who had
9 been a team on stage for a long time, and they could
10 anticipate what each other was going to say. That I
11 couldn't have done this with an artist I just met, you
12 know, that I had never worked with. But I had worked with
13 these people for so long. We knew each other, and we
14 could work where I'd give them a few words, and they could
15 go ahead and come up with the written drawn story.
16 Q. They would know what you wanted?
17 A. Right. And if they did anything a little
18 different, it was usually an improvement, and I would
19 change the dialogue and to suit what they had done.
20 MR. TOBEROFF: I'm sorry. Since I don't have
21 the entire exhibit in front of me, just the article, I'd
22 like to know the date of the magazine this appeared in and
23 the issue number.
24 MR. QUINN: Yeah. Hold on one second. I can
25 tell you that, I think. It's --

JA2486
Page 67
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: If I could just look at Stan's.
3 MR. QUINN: I will tell you. It's Volume 2
4 No. 2, the Summer of 1998.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Thanks.
6 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Now looking at let's turn the
7 page over to page 34. And I'm going to read a portion of
8 the article that's quoting you. Mr. Thomas writes, "In
9 answer to my earlier query, Stan sent a few comments along
10 with the synopsis."
11 And then he quotes you, "Incidentally, I
12 didn't discuss it with Jack first," referring to the
13 synopsis. "I wrote it first after telling Jack it was for
14 him because I knew he was the best guy to draw it." And
15 you go on, "PS, as you are probably aware, the biggest
16 change that was made after the synopsis was written was I
17 decided to make the thing more sympathetic than originally
18 intended."
19 A. Right.
20 Q. After giving -- "After seeing the way Jack
21 drew him, I felt it was too obvious for such a ugly
22 monstrous looking guy to act in a typically monstrous,
23 menacing way."
24 Do you recall sending that note to Mr. Thomas?
25 A. Yes.

JA2487
Page 68
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And what were you referring to?
3 A. Well, I was referring to what I mentioned
4 before. I would very often give a writer a synopsis or an
5 oral synopsis what I wanted, and then later when the story
6 was penciled, I would look at it and say, well, maybe we
7 should change this or maybe make this character a little
8 more that way. And as I mentioned with The Thing, when I
9 saw the way he looked, I thought it would be dull. We got
10 a guy who looks like a monster. If he just acts like a
11 monster, a dumb monster, it would be more interesting to
12 give him a real personality. And actually the guy -- some
13 of you were too young to know him, but I thought of Jimmy
14 Durante, an old comedian.
15 Q. Sadly, I'm not too young to know him.
16 A. I tried to have the thing talk a little like
17 Jimmy Durante, have that kind of an explosive personality.
18 So...
19 Q. The article on the next page, there's several
20 numbered paragraphs. And No. 5 talks about, and I will
21 just read it into the record:
22 Re the idea of Sue remaining permanently
23 invisible and having to wear a humanoid face mask
24 to be seen, well, Stan's note at the end of that
25 paragraph indicates that he was already

JA2488
Page 69
1 S. LEE
2 rethinking that bit. He asked Jack to talk with
3 him about it because "maybe we'll change this
4 gimmick somewhat." Since the writer, editor, and
5 artist probably discussed this point before Jack
6 started drawing any number of other changes,
7 including the notion of starting with a
8 multi-page action sequence may have been
9 suggested, then, as well by either man. In any
10 event, Sue gained control of her invisibility
11 almost at once.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. What were you referring to there?
14 A. Well, I think either Jack or I or both of us,
15 I don't know, must have thought at some point that she'd
16 always be invisible, and she'd have to wear a mask or
17 something so people would see her.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. And whether it was my idea or not, as I
20 thought about it, I thought, that's a lousy idea. So we
21 decided to change it where she could look like a normal
22 person and make herself invisible at will or make herself
23 normal at will.
24 Q. And who in this process had the ultimate
25 decision to decide how that was going to come about?

JA2489
Page 70
1 S. LEE
2 A. Well, I did. I was the editor.
3 Q. And turning over to the next page of the
4 article, up on the actually the crossover page 37, there's
5 another document that's recreated that says, Synopsis for
6 Fantastic -- Synopsis for Fantastic Four No. 8 "Prisoners
7 of Puppetmaster."
8 Do you recognize that as another of the
9 synopses you created in connection with Fantastic Four?
10 A. I hadn't read that for so many years, but,
11 yeah, that seems to be mine. I didn't even know this was
12 in here. Wow. Yeah. See, instead of telling him page by
13 page, I would say, Devote five pages to this, five pages
14 to that, and three pages to that. Yeah.
15 Q. That was typical of how you were working
16 utilizing the Marvel method?
17 A. Yeah. Sometimes I wouldn't even be this
18 specific. And I wouldn't have cared if Jack devoted,
19 let's say, six pages to this and he changed that to three
20 pages. Just so he got the idea what I had this mind. But
21 he was good at making his own changes, and very often he'd
22 improve them. But, yeah, this is mine.
23 Q. Let's go to another character, The Silver
24 Surfer.
25 A. Oh, yeah.

JA2490
Page 71
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Could you tell us how the Silver Surfer came
3 about?
4 A. Right. I wanted to have a villain called
5 Galactus. We had so many villains who were so powerful.
6 I was looking for somebody who would be more powerful than
7 any. So I figured somebody who is a demigod who rides
8 around in space and destroys planets.
9 I told Jack about it and told him how I wanted
10 the story to go generally. And Jack went home, and he
11 drew it. And he drew a wonderful version. But when I
12 looked at the artwork, I saw there was some nutty looking
13 naked guy on a flying surfboard.
14 And I said, "Who is this?"
15 And he said -- well, I don't remember whether
16 he called him the surfer or not. He may have called him
17 the surfer. But he said, "I thought that anybody as
18 powerful as Galactus who could destroy planets should have
19 somebody who goes ahead of him, a herald who finds the
20 planets for him. And I thought it would be good to have
21 that guy on a flying surfboard."
22 I said, "That's wonderful." I loved it. And
23 I decided to call him The Silver Surfer, which I thought
24 sounded dramatic.
25 But that was all. He was supposed to be a

JA2491
Page 72
1 S. LEE
2 herald to find Galactus his planets. But the way Jack
3 drew him, he looked so noble and so interesting that I
4 said, "Jack, you know, we ought to really use this guy. I
5 like him."
6 And I tried to write his copy so that he was
7 very philosophical, and he was always commenting about the
8 state of the world and: Don't you human beings realize
9 you live in a paradise. Why don't you appreciate it? Why
10 do you fight each other and hate each other? And I had
11 him talking like that all the time. And the college kids
12 started to love him. And whenever I would lecture at a
13 college, and there was a question-and-answers period, it
14 was inevitably the Silver Surfer that they would talk
15 about the most. So I was very happy with him.
16 But that's how it happened accidentally. I
17 mean, I had nothing -- I didn't think of him. Jack -- it
18 was one of the characters Jack tossed into the strip. And
19 he drew him so beautifully that I felt we have to make him
20 an important character.
21 Q. And this is -- you talked about it before that
22 artists were expected as part of their job to populate the
23 story with characters?
24 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates testimony.

JA2492
Page 73
1 S. LEE
2 A. Pardon me?
4 A. Oh. You see, if there's a story where the
5 hero goes, let's say, to a nightclub, so I would say or
6 whoever the writer is would say the hero goes to a
7 nightclub, and he talks to this person, and then there's a
8 gun fight. Well, when the artist draws it, the artist has
9 to draw other people in the nightclub. So the artist is
10 always creating new characters. I mean, the artist might
11 decide to have the character standing at the bar and draw
12 a sexy-looking bartender, a female or an interesting
13 looking bartender.
14 The artist in every strip always creates new
15 characters to flesh out the strip and to make the
16 characters living in the real world. Sure.
17 Q. Who is it up to? Who had the last word as to
18 whether or not a particular character would make it into
19 the final publication?
20 A. Well, I guess I did, and my publisher Martin,
21 who might also look at a character and say, I like him,
22 let's see more of him, although he didn't do it that
23 often.
24 Q. Did he ever say I didn't like --
25 A. Yeah.

JA2493
Page 74
1 S. LEE
2 Q. -- a particular character?
3 A. Yeah, mostly in Westerns. He was big on our
4 Western books. And sometimes he wouldn't like the way a
5 character was drawn.
6 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the Spider-Man.
7 How did the idea for Spider-Man come about?
8 A. Again, I was looking for -- Martin said,
9 "We're doing pretty good. Let's get some more
10 characters." So I was trying to think of something
11 different. And I have always hated teenage sidekicks, so
12 I felt it would be fun to do a teenager who isn't a
13 sidekick but who is the real hero. So that part was easy.
14 But then you had to -- the toughest thing is
15 dreaming up a superpower. So I thought, What superpower
16 can I give him? And it finally occurred to me, a guy who
17 could stick to walls like an insect, crawl on a wall and
18 stick to a ceiling. I didn't recall ever having seen any
19 character like that before. So I thought that's what I'll
20 do. I'm going to get a teenager who can crawl on walls.
21 But then the second most important thing is a
22 title. Titles are very -- the names of the characters are
23 very important. So I went down the list. Could I call
24 him Mosquito Man? insect Man? fly Man? And I got to
25 Spider-Man. It sounded dramatic. And I remember I had

JA2494
Page 75
1 S. LEE
2 read a pulp magazine when I was a kid called Spider-Man.
3 The guy didn't have a superpower. He was just a guy who
4 went around fighting bad guys. But I thought Spider-Man
5 sounds great.
6 And again, I went to Jack. I think I told you
7 this before, but --
8 Q. It's okay.
9 A. I went to Jack and asked him to draw it, and
10 he did, but he didn't make the teenager look as wimpy or
11 as nerdy as I thought he should. And I realize that
12 really isn't Jack's style. Jack mostly draws glamorous
13 heroic Captain America type. Not that he couldn't have
14 but he would have had to force himself. So I figured I
15 will get somebody that it comes easy to.
16 And nobody, Jack nor I nor anybody, thought
17 that Spider-Man was going to be a big strip, so it didn't
18 matter. So I said, "Forget it, Jack. I will give it to
19 someone else." He said okay and he went back to Fantastic
20 Four or Thor or whatever he was drawing, and I gave it to
21 Steve Ditko. And Steve had that kind of awkward feeling.
22 It was just right for Spider-Man, so I gave it to Steve.
23 And that's what happened.
24 Q. Now, did you discuss the idea that you had for
25 Spider-Man with Mr. Goodman?

JA2495
Page 76
1 S. LEE
2 A. Oh, yeah. He hated it.
3 Q. Tell us about that.
4 A. Want that story?
5 Q. Yeah. Sure.
6 A. Hope I'm not boring you all.
7 Q. Not at all.
8 A. I had the idea for Spider-Man, so then I went
9 in, and I told him. I said I want him to be a teenager.
10 I want him to be called Spider-Man. And I want him to
11 have a lot of personal -- I didn't mention that I wanted
12 him to have a lot of personal problems because I thought
13 that would make him very empathetic to the reader, teenage
14 readers.
15 Q. And today is what we call them issues. He'd
16 have issues.
17 A. Pardon me?
18 Q. He'd have issues.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Personal issues.
21 A. That's right. And I told that to Martin
22 Goodman. And Martin said:
23 Stan, you're losing it. That's the worst
24 idea I ever heard. He said, First of all, you
25 can't call a hero Spider-Man. People hate

JA2496
Page 77
1 S. LEE
2 spiders. Secondly, you can't make him a
3 teenager. Teenagers can just be sidekicks. And
4 finally, problems? Don't you know what a
5 superhero is? They don't have problems. They're
6 superheroes.
7 So I had a feeling I hadn't hit pay dirt with
8 that one as far as Martin was concerned, but I always
9 liked the idea. So sometime later we had a magazine we
10 were going to drop. It was called Amazing Fantasy.
11 Strangely enough, Steve Ditko had drawn all the stories in
12 that one, now that I remember. Anyway, it wasn't selling
13 well, and we were going to drop it.
14 Now, when you drop a magazine, nobody cares
15 what you put in the last issue because you're dropping it
16 anyway. So just to get it out of my system, that's when I
17 asked Jack to draw it. Then I asked Steve to draw it.
18 And we did a little, I don't know, 10- or 12-page story.
19 And we threw it in Amazing Fantasy in the last issue. And
20 just for fun, I put him on the cover.
21 And the book sold fantastically. So a couple
22 months later when the sales figures were in, Martin came
23 to me and he said, "Hey Stan, you remember that Spider-Man
24 idea of yours that we both liked so much? Why don't we
25 make a series of it."

JA2497
Page 78
1 S. LEE
2 And I will never forget that.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We need to pause in about
4 five minutes to change tapes.
5 MR. QUINN: Actually, let's pause now because
6 we're going to go to another subject.
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This marks the end of DVD
8 No. 1. Off video at 11:25 a.m.
9 (Recess.)
11 This marks the beginning of DVD No. 2, the video
12 deposition of Stan Lee.
13 MR. QUINN: Just for the record, I just want
14 to note that Marvel is going to designate the deposition
15 transcript confidential pursuant to the protective order
16 when it's signed. I guess we're operating now under an
17 agreement.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Well, we don't have a
19 protective order in place, and we're not accepting the
20 protective order submitted by Marvel. We proposed a
21 protective order, the same one we had in the Superman
22 case, but I never heard back from anybody about it. That
23 was nearly a week ago.
24 MR. QUINN: I'm sure we'll get back to you
25 shortly Marc. I promise.

JA2498
Page 79
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Okay.
3 Q. BY MR. QUINN: In any event, let me go back to
4 something you testified about a little while ago when we
5 were talking about the process of where artists sometimes
6 create characters as part of the story. And you
7 mentioned, for example, the possibility of an artist
8 creating a lady bartender.
9 Whose job or whose responsibility, if it was
10 decided that this was really an interesting character, who
11 would be the one who would make the decision to take that
12 character and make him or her a separate character for a
13 new comic?
14 A. Well, either whoever is the Editor or the
15 Publisher.
16 Q. So at this period of time it would be you or
17 Mr. Goodman?
18 A. At that period it would have been me or
19 Martin.
20 Q. So, for example, with regard to the Silver
21 Surfer, who decided to essentially take the Silver Surfer
22 and make him a separate character?
23 A. Oh. Me.
24 Q. And why?
25 A. Why?

JA2499
Page 80
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Why did you decide to do that?
3 A. Because I just thought he was such an
4 interesting looking and such a unique character. We had
5 never seen a guy on a flying surfboard who could travel
6 from planet to planet.
7 Q. And it was you who gave him the name Silver
8 Surfer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go now to the Incredible Hulk.
11 And could you tell us how The Incredible Hulk came about?
12 What was your idea for him?
13 A. Well, same thing. I was trying to -- it was
14 my job to come up with new characters and to expand the
15 line as much as I could. So I was trying to think again
16 what can I do that's different. I liked the thing very
17 much, and I thought, what if I get somebody who is a real
18 monster? And I remembered I had always in the old movie
19 Frankenstein with Boris Karloff I had always thought that
20 that monster was the good guy because he didn't want to
21 hurt anybody, but those idiots with torches who were
22 always chasing him up and down the hills.
23 Q. He was a misunderstood monster.
24 A. A mis -- you said it better than I could have.
25 So I thought it would be fun to get a monster

JA2500
Page 81
1 S. LEE
2 who is really good but nobody knows it, and they fight
3 him. But then the more I thought about it, I figured it
4 could be dull after awhile just having people chasing a
5 monster. And I remember Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I
6 thought, why not treat him like Jekyll and Hyde? He's
7 really a normal man who can't help turning into a monster,
8 and it would make a very interesting story if when he
9 needs his monstrous strength the most, the poor guy turns
10 back into a normal man. I could get a lot of story
11 complications. So I thought that would be good.
12 I needed a name. Years ago I remember there
13 was a comic book called The Heap, H-E-A-P. I don't
14 remember even what he was, but I always thought that was
15 some real crazy name. And somehow or other I thought I
16 will call him The Hulk. It's a little like The Heap, and
17 it has that same feeling. But I love adjectives like the
18 Fantastic Four, the Uncanny so-and-so. So I decided I'll
19 call him The Incredible Hulk. And that's what happened.
20 Q. And how come The Hulk is green?
21 A. That's a long story. When I did the Fantastic
22 Four, we started getting a lot of fan mail. And the fan
23 -- remember, I told you I didn't want them to have
24 costumes. And the fan mail said, We love the book. It's
25 great. Oh, it's the best new thing we've seen. But if

JA2501
Page 82
1 S. LEE
2 you don't give them costumes, we'll never buy another
3 issue. And I realize there's something unique about the
4 comic book reader. They love -- the superhero fan. They
5 love costumes.
6 Well, I couldn't figure out a way to give a
7 monster a costume. I couldn't see a monster, The Hulk,
8 walking into a costume store or making one for himself.
9 So I figured I'll do the next best thing. I'll give him a
10 different skin color. That will always look like a
11 costume.
12 You may not know this, but originally I made
13 him gray. I thought that a gray skin would look spooky
14 and scary and dramatic. But when the book was published,
15 the printer apparently had a problem with the color gray.
16 On one page he was light gray. On one page dark gray. On
17 one page black. On one page almost white. I said, This
18 will never do. So I decided on another color. See, you
19 can do that when you're a comic book editor. You can do
20 anything.
21 So I will change the color of his skin. So I
22 looked around for a color that wasn't being used. I
23 couldn't think of any green hero. I said, I will make him
24 green. And it turned out to be a good choice, because I
25 was able to come up with little sayings like, The Jolly

JA2502
Page 83
1 S. LEE
2 Green Giant, or the Green Goliath, and so forth. And
3 that's how it happened. I could have thought of pink or
4 blue or any other color.
5 Q. Now, after you came up with the character, who
6 did you ask to draw the character?
7 A. My best guy, Jack Kirby.
8 Q. And do you remember giving Kirby directions as
9 to what you wanted with regard to what he was to draw?
10 A. I remember the first thing I said to him. I
11 said, Jack, you're going to think I'm crazy, but I want
12 you to draw a sympathetic monster. And he came up with
13 The Hulk.
14 Q. And did you, as part of that direction, give
15 him a back story and a story line?
16 A. Oh, yeah. We had to figure out how The Hulk
17 would be -- how he came to be The Hulk. So I decided he's
18 a scientist named Bruce Banner. And I'm not very
19 scientific. All I know are the names of things. I don't
20 really know how they work or anything. But I had used
21 cosmic rays for the Fantastic Four to get them their
22 powers. So I heard the expression "gamma ray" somewhere.
23 So I said let's let Bruce Banner be subjected to a gamma
24 ray, and that turns him into The Hulk. But it had to be
25 in a heroic way. So I said let's get a teenage -- they're

JA2503
Page 84
1 S. LEE
2 doing a test for a new kind of gamma ray bomb somewhere.
3 The military is doing that. And some idiot teenager is
4 riding his bike past the no trespassing sign onto the test
5 area. And Bruce Banner in his cubicle sees the kid, and
6 he runs out to save the kid, say, "Get out of here.
7 There's going to be a gamma ray explosion."
8 But Bruce Banner had a rival scientist who was
9 jealous of him, and when the scientist sees Bruce Banner
10 run out, he says, "Quick. Start the explosion." And the
11 gamma ray explodes, and Bruce throws himself on top of the
12 kid to save the kid, and he gets subjected to the gamma
13 ray. That's how he becomes the Hulk, and that's how we
14 know he's really a hero at heart.
15 Q. And in creating and then coming up with the
16 back story, did you --
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts not in evidence.
18 Q. -- as The Hulk progressed, did you follow the
19 same process that you previously testified to in terms of
20 how you directed and edited The Hulk stories?
21 A. Yeah. Well, I told Jack essentially what I
22 told you. And he just drew it any way, you know, the best
23 way he could. And it turned out great.
24 Q. Let's talk a little -- let's talk about Iron
25 Man. Tell us about how Iron Man came about, how he was

JA2504
Page 85
1 S. LEE
2 created, the back story with regard to Iron Man.
3 A. I will try to make it shorter. It was the
4 same type of thing. I was looking for somebody new. And
5 I thought -- I don't know why I thought it, somebody in a
6 suit of armor. And what if it was iron armor. He would
7 be so powerful. So for some reason I have always been
8 fascinated by Howard Hughes. I thought I would get a hero
9 like Howard Hughes.
10 He's an inventor. He's a multimillionaire.
11 He's good looking. He likes the women. And but I got to
12 make something tragic about him. And then it occurred to
13 me if he -- somehow when he got his iron armor -- it's a
14 long story -- but he gets into a fight, and he gets
15 injured in his chest. And his heart is injured, and he
16 has to wear this little thing that runs the iron armor.
17 He has to wear that on his chest because it also keeps his
18 heart beating. And that would make him a tragic figure as
19 well as the most powerful guy. So I thought the readers
20 would like him even more with that little bit added to it.
21 And that was it. Then again -- oh, but wait a
22 minute. This one wasn't Jack. I called Don Heck, and I
23 asked Don Heck because I think Jack was busy with
24 something else. That must have been what it was.
25 Q. Don Heck is another artist?

JA2505
Page 86
1 S. LEE
2 A. He's another artist that we had who was pretty
3 good. And he drew the first Iron Man. I think I might
4 have given the cover to Jack to do. I don't remember who
5 did the cover. I think it might have been Jack.
6 Q. And in coming up with the back story, did you
7 include a love interest?
8 A. Oh, yeah. I forgot. I made up a name called
9 -- a girl who worked for the millionaire. I figured he
10 has -- I wanted him to be a playboy, so he has this
11 gorgeous assistant secretary named Pepper Pots. And he's
12 in love with her, and she's in love with him, but he won't
13 admit he's in love with her because he figures he could
14 die any minute with his bad heart. And he loves her too
15 much to make her a widow, and so he never admits to her
16 how he feels about her, which again is a little touch of
17 pathos for the series.
18 He also has a friend named Happy hogan, and it
19 goes on and on.
20 Q. Now, in addition to Don Heck, did your brother
21 Larry Lieber have a role in Iron Man?
22 A. Oh, yeah. I came up with the idea, but when
23 the script was -- when the strip was drawn, I didn't have
24 time to put in the copy. So I asked my brother Larry to
25 write it.

JA2506
Page 87
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And this happened on other occasions where --
3 A. Yeah. There were times when I would ask Larry
4 to write something. Mm-hmm.
5 Q. Now let's talk --
6 A. Excuse me one second. I may have asked Larry
7 to write it in script form and then give it to Don to
8 draw. I'm not sure. I may have done that.
9 Q. Let's talk next about Thor.
10 A. Mm-hmm.
11 Q. And how Thor was created and what was your
12 idea behind Thor.
13 A. Same thing. I was looking for something
14 different and bigger than anything else. And I figured
15 what could be bigger than a god? Well, people were pretty
16 much into the Roman and the Greek gods by then, and I
17 thought the Norse gods might be good. And I liked the
18 sound of the name Thor and Asgaard and the Twilight of the
19 Gods' Ragnarok and all of that.
20 And Jack was very much into that, more so than
21 me. So when I told Jack about that, he was really
22 thrilled. And we got together, and we did Thor the same
23 way.
24 Q. And what was the idea behind Thor? What was
25 his deal?

JA2507
Page 88
1 S. LEE
2 A. I wanted him to be --
3 MR. TOBEROFF: Excuse me. Objection. Vague
4 and ambiguous.
6 A. I wanted him to be the son of Odin, who is the
7 King of the Gods, like Jupiter. And I wanted him to have
8 an evil brother, Loki. And just like the Fantastic Four
9 were always fighting Dr. Doom, and Spider-Man was usually
10 fighting the Green Goblin, I figured Loki would be the big
11 villain. He's Thor's half brother. He's jealous of Thor.
12 He has enchantment powers. So in a way he's a good foe.
13 Thor has strength, but Loki is like a magician and can do
14 all kind of things. So that seemed good to me.
15 And then Thor had a girlfriend from legend
16 called Sif, S-I-F. And I would have her involved in the
17 stories and have jealousy.
18 And then I wanted some comedy relief, so it
19 wasn't -- I don't think it was until the strip had been
20 going for a while, but I decided there were three guys. I
21 called them The Warriors 3 that I wanted to include, a
22 very fat guy named Volstag, The Voluminous Volstag, I
23 called him, who acts like a real hero. "Come on, let's go
24 get them." But when the fights start, he's cowardly and
25 always holds back.

JA2508
Page 89
1 S. LEE
2 Another guy like Errol Flynn called Fandral
3 the Dashing. And a guy like Charles Bronson in Death
4 Wish. I think I called him Hogan the Grim. And the three
5 of them, Fandral the Dashing, Hogan the Grim, and Volstag
6 the Voluminous I thought they could be Thor's friends, and
7 they would provide comedy relief. And I'm happy to see
8 they're using them in the movie, I think.
9 And it was something that we both enjoyed
10 doing very much. And Jack was wonderful with the costumes
11 that he gave them. I mean, nobody could have drawn
12 costumes like he gave them.
13 Q. The character Thor, how did -- what idea did
14 you have to come up to give him his powers?
15 A. Well, he had --
16 Q. What was the back story?
18 A. Oh, yeah. He had mainly a hammer, an
19 enchanted hammer. The back story was I decided to make
20 him a guy here on Earth, Dr. -- I forgot his name. But
21 whatever his name was, he was lame and he walked with a
22 cane. And for some reason he went to Norway, and there he
23 -- I think -- the Stone-Men from Saturn or somewhere.
24 Some aliens who were stone men had landed in Norway and
25 they wanted to kill our doctor.

JA2509
Page 90
1 S. LEE
2 And he rushes into a cave somewhere to hide
3 from them. And they're coming toward him, but he sees a
4 hammer in the ground, and some kind of a sign that said --
5 I don't remember the exact wording, but, Whoever is worthy
6 would be able to lift this hammer, sort of like the King
7 Arthur legend. And he grabs the hammer, and he's able to
8 lift it up.
9 And it seems that destiny had prepared that
10 for him over the centuries. The minute it lifts it up, he
11 turns into The Thunder God Thor, and wielding the hammer
12 he takes care of the Stone-Men. And then he can always
13 become Dr. Don Blake. That was his name. I believe Don
14 Blake. If he hits the hammer on the ground, it turns back
15 into the cane that he always had because he was lame. He
16 walked with a cane as Don Blake, Dr. Don Blake.
17 So he's a surgeon, who walks with a cane, but
18 when he hits the cane on the ground, he turns into the
19 mighty Thor, God of Thunder. And that was the idea.
20 Q. You have a lot of doctors. Do you have any
21 lawyers in this whole process?
22 A. Maybe next time. Next go round. We do have a
23 lawyer Daredevil.
24 Q. Daredevil. Tell me about Daredevil.
25 A. Yeah. Same thing. Oh, by the way. I think

JA2510
Page 91
1 S. LEE
2 Thor also was written by my brother. After I came up with
3 the outline, I think Larry wrote the first script.
4 Now, let me see. Daredevil.
5 Q. Daredevil. I want to hear about the lawyer.
6 A. Again I'm trying to think of what can I do
7 that hasn't been done. And it occurred to me --
8 Q. Well, certainly making a lawyer a hero would
9 fall into that category. But, in any event, go ahead.
10 Tell me about Daredevil.
11 A. After this is over, I want him to write for
12 us.
13 I figure I will get a blind man and make him a
14 hero. And how you do that. So I said, what if all his
15 other senses are very acute? What if he can hear so well
16 that he can tell if you're lying to him because he hears
17 your pulse rate speed up, your heart beat. And he can
18 smell so well he can tell if a girl has been in a room.
19 He could smell her cologne even if it was two days ago.
20 You know, you get your balance through your ears.
21 So he's like an acrobat, like a circus
22 tightrope walker. He can do anything any trained athlete
23 can do. And on and on. And I figured that's kind of
24 good. Oh, and he has a radar sense and a sonar sense. So
25 when he's Daredevil, nobody knows he's blind. He is like

JA2511
Page 92
1 S. LEE
2 the greatest circus acrobat.
3 However, he has a law office. His name was
4 Murdock, Matt Murdock. And he had a friend named Foggy
5 Nelson. For some reason I called him Foggy. And they
6 have a law firm called Nelson and Murdock. And I have him
7 fighting villains who weren't too super. He didn't fight
8 monsters or anything. I tried to keep the strip a little
9 more realistic. But I loved the character.
10 And Jack was busy, and Steve Ditko was busy.
11 Everybody was busy, but there's an artist named Don Heck
12 -- not Don Heck, I'm sorry -- named Bill Everett who had
13 done one of the first strips that Martin Goodman ever had
14 when he started Timely Comics. And that was the
15 Sub-Mariner. And Bill was still around, and I called
16 Bill, and I said, "How would you like to draw Daredevil?
17 And he said, "Oh, great." So I gave him what I told you
18 essentially, little more because I forget who the villain
19 was in the first story. But whatever it was, that's what
20 I told him.
21 And he drew it, and I put in the copy. And
22 it's a shame Bill was ill or something. I don't know. He
23 couldn't do too many strips. He did one or two and then
24 that was the end of it.
25 Q. Keeping with our discussion, could you tell us

JA2512
Page 93
1 S. LEE
2 about the creation of X-Men? How did that come about?
3 A. Again, Martin asked me for another team
4 because the Fantastic Four had been doing well. And again
5 I wanted to try something different. And I thought what
6 -- I could think of superpowers for them, but how do they
7 get their powers? I have already had cosmic rays and
8 gamma rays and bitten by a radioactive spider. What was
9 left?
10 So I took the cowardly way out. I said I'm
11 going to just say they were born that way. They're
12 mutants. Now I don't have to figure out gamma rays or
13 anything. So I decided to have a group of young mutants.
14 And I really, the more I thought about it, the more I
15 liked it. I said, they'll go to a school. They have to
16 keep their mutant powers secret, so it will just say a
17 School for Gifted Youngsters. Nobody will know it means
18 mutants.
19 And we'll get a professor who gets them
20 together. And this guy should also have mutant powers,
21 but I will make him have mental powers. He's got a brain.
22 He can send thought waves all around, and he can send his
23 thought waves around to detect where there's a kid with
24 mutant powers, and then he'll ask that kid to enroll in
25 his school. And again, so that he isn't too powerful, I

JA2513
Page 94
1 S. LEE
2 thought I would make him in a wheelchair. He's the
3 professor.
4 Q. And what was his name?
5 A. Professor Xavier.
6 And then I thought of the characters. There
7 would be a girl who can do -- called Marvel Girl, who
8 could do crazy things, and a fella called The Beast, who
9 looks a little bit apelike. So to go against type, I made
10 him the smartest and the most articulate of all of them.
11 And a guy named The Angel with wings, and so forth.
12 And when I went to tell the idea to Martin
13 Goodman, I said -- he loved it, but I said, "I want to
14 call it The Mutants."
15 He said, "That's a terrible name. Nobody
16 knows what the word "mutants" means." So I went back, and
17 I thought about it. And I thought Professor X, Xavier.
18 And the mutants have extra powers. For some reason I
19 thought I could call them the X-Men. So I went back to
20 Martin. He said, "Oh, that's a good name." And as I
21 walked out, I thought, if nobody knows what a mutant is,
22 how were they going to know what an X-Man is? But I had
23 my name, so I wasn't about to make waves.
24 Q. And you gave the -- this --
25 A. Oh, yeah, luckily --

JA2514
Page 95
1 S. LEE
2 Q. -- idea to Kirby?
3 A. Luckily, Jack was free at the time. And
4 again, he did a wonderful job.
5 Q. Did you, again, with X-Men follow the same
6 pattern you testified before, using the Marvel method?
7 A. Yeah. I spoke to him. I don't even think I
8 wrote anything. I think we talked about it. And he was
9 on absolutely the same wave length. He saw it the way I
10 did. So I said, "Go on and draw it." And he did, and it
11 came out great. And I wrote the copy, and it became one
12 of our best-selling strips.
13 Q. Next Nick Fury. Tell us about Nick Fury.
14 A. Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. There was a
15 television series called The Man from U.N.C.L.E. that I
16 used to watch and I liked it. And I thought it would be
17 fun to get something like that as a comic book.
18 So I remembered we had done a war series
19 called Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos, Stories of
20 World War II. And it was quite popular. I don't really
21 like war stories, so after a few years of doing it I asked
22 Martin if we could drop the book so we could concentrate
23 on superheroes. And he said okay. But we got a lot of
24 fan mail. The kids loved the characters. And we kept
25 reprinting those books, and they sold as well as the

JA2515
Page 96
1 S. LEE
2 originals.
3 So when I wanted to do the thing like The Man
4 from U.N.C.L.E., I thought why don't I take that popular
5 Sgt. fury that was years ago in World War II, why don't I
6 say he's older now and he's a colonel, and he's in charge
7 of this new outfit that I made up, S.H.I.E.L.D, which
8 stood for the Supreme Headquarters International Law
9 Enforcement Division. So I took Sgt. Fury, who now has a
10 patch over one eye, and made him in charge of this group.
11 And again, there was Jack Kirby. I said, "How
12 would you like to draw Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
13 And it was right up Jack's alley. He loves that kind of
14 stuff. And he came up with all kind of weapons and
15 things.
16 Q. And again, you had the same process of
17 overseeing and editing it?
18 A. Yeah. It was always the same process.
19 Q. Let's focus on The Avengers. How did The
20 Avengers come about? First, tell us who The Avengers are.
21 A. Well, they're anybody that we wanted to put in
22 the group of our own heroes. I don't even remember who
23 they were in the first issue. It might have been Iron
24 Man, Captain America, Thor, Daredevil. I don't even
25 remember because we kept changing the roster each month,

JA2516
Page 97
1 S. LEE
2 whoever we felt like.
3 But the idea was that they were organized by
4 -- I don't remember which of our heroes organized. Oh,
5 they got together and decided to become a fighting team.
6 Again we wanted something like The Justice League that DC
7 had.
8 Q. Had you discussed the idea for The Avengers
9 with Martin Goodman?
10 A. Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I couldn't do any book
11 unless Martin approved of it. And I remember Iron Man who
12 was the rich one. I had them use Iron Man's mansion on
13 Fifth Avenue as The Avengers' headquarters, and Captain
14 America was definitely an Avenger. Iron Man. And
15 Spider-Man never joined them; he was a loaner.
16 But then I would have them -- the toughest
17 thing about The Avengers, they were also powerful that we
18 had to find very powerful villains for them to fight. And
19 again, you know, Jack drew it, and it turned out to be
20 popular. They're going to make a movie of that, too.
21 Q. You needed to have very powerful villains to
22 make it a fair fight.
23 A. Oh, sure. In fact, it's always best if the
24 villain -- if it isn't a fair fight; if the villains seem
25 even more powerful, because then you wonder how will the

JA2517
Page 98
1 S. LEE
2 hero ever get out of this one.
3 Q. And who came up with the back story for The
4 Avengers?
5 A. There really wasn't much back story. I did,
6 but just the idea that they all get together and form a
7 group. Because I didn't have to create new characters.
8 We had them. I just needed an excuse for them to get
9 together. And honestly I forget what the excuse was now.
10 Q. Let's talk a little bit about one of my
11 favorites, Ant-Man. Tell us a little bit about why you
12 came up with and how you came up with Ant-Man.
14 Q. Who created Ant-Man?
15 A. What could I do that was different? I didn't
16 know of any hero that was that big (indicating). So I
17 thought, I'll go for it. Martin okayed it. And I don't
18 remember if Jack did the first one or not. Maybe he did
19 or you wouldn't be mentioning it.
20 You know, it was just -- it was not all that
21 successful. And I later realized why it wasn't that
22 successful. The interesting thing about a character who
23 is that big (indicating), would be to show him against a
24 lot of big things. But somehow no matter which artist
25 drew him, they always made him look life size. They put

JA2518
Page 99
1 S. LEE
2 him in the foreground. So you didn't enjoy the contrast
3 of this little guy next to big -- you know, if they had
4 him near a cigarette in an ashtray, but they always had
5 him somehow where he didn't look like Ant-Man.
6 Anyway, I hate to give up. So at some point I
7 changed him to Giant-Man. He had the ability to become a
8 giant.
9 Q. The ant could become a giant?
10 A. Yeah. And that didn't become too popular
11 either, although he's still running somewhere in the
12 books.
13 Q. Who came up with the idea of making -- having
14 Ant Man become Giant-Man?
15 A. I'm embarrassed to say it was me.
16 MR. QUINN: Let's go off the record for a
17 second.
18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 12:05 p.m.
19 (Recess.)
20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 12:06 p.m.
21 Q. Just to clarify, because we may have been
22 talking over each other. Who was it who came up with the
23 idea for Ant-Man?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Okay. One more we can talk about right now is

JA2519
Page 100
1 S. LEE
2 the raw hide kid tell us about The Rawhide Kid.
3 A. I don't really know what to tell you. Martin,
4 the publisher, he loved Westerns. And we had a lot of
5 Western books, and he loved the name The Kid. We had Kid
6 called Outlaw, The Rawhide Kid, The Texas Kid. We had a
7 few others I can't remember. He loved that word. And the
8 Rawhide Kid was just one of the many Westerns we had.
9 And I, as far as I know, my brother had been
10 doing most of them. He was writing and drawing them. I
11 don't remember who started it. Maybe it was Jack that I
12 did it with first. I probably wrote the first one.
13 But it was just -- I don't even remember.
14 Maybe he was somebody wanted by the law, but he was really
15 a good guy, and nobody knew it and he just rode around The
16 West having adventures.
17 We didn't put a lot of thought into our
18 Westerns, really. They were all pretty much alike, just a
19 guy who is the fastest gun in the west, and he fights bad
20 guys.
21 Q. And with The Rawhide Kid, you followed the
22 same practice of making the assignment and then overseeing
23 it and editing it?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Switching to another subject. Do you recall

JA2520
Page 101
1 S. LEE
2 that sometime back in 2002 and 2003 you had a dispute with
3 Marvel?
4 A. Oh, yes.
5 Q. And what was that dispute about?
6 A. Well, according to my contract, I was supposed
7 to get 10% of the profits of -- Marvel's profits from the
8 movies and television and things like that. And I felt I
9 hadn't been getting it.
10 Q. Did during the course of that dispute did you
11 ever say that you owned the characters and not Marvel?
12 A. No, that wasn't part of the dispute.
13 Q. And from your perspective, who did you believe
14 owned the characters?
15 A. Say that again.
16 Q. Who did you believe owned the characters?
17 A. I always felt the company did.
18 Q. Now, do you recall during the course of that
19 dispute that my nice friend, Mr. Fleischer over there,
20 took your deposition?
21 A. I don't recall it, but I take your word for
22 it. Somebody took it. I don't remember who.
23 Q. I'm going to show you a portion of that
24 deposition --
25 A. All right.

JA2521
Page 102
1 S. LEE
2 Q. -- and just ask you a couple questions about
3 it. We'll mark the deposition transcript itself as Stan
4 Lee 8.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Is this the entire transcript
7 of the deposition?
8 MR. QUINN: Yes, but I promise I won't play it
9 all.
10 THE WITNESS: Oh, wow.
11 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, did you want me to
12 report it?
13 MR. QUINN: No.
14 (Video recording playing.)
15 Q. BY MR. QUINN: That was you up there, wasn't
16 it?
17 A. Looked like it.
18 Q. Now, is that testimony consistent with your
19 current recollection?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And truthful testimony when you gave it?
22 A. Pardon me?
23 Q. It was truthful testimony when you gave it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Back in November, I guess, 2003?

JA2522
Page 103
1 S. LEE
2 A. But we left out Thor for some reason. I
3 didn't remember Thor.
4 Q. Well, you've testified about Thor here.
5 That's probably good enough.
6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry, we're getting
7 some audio interference. Off video real quick.
8 MR. QUINN: Yes.
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off video at 12:14 p.m.
10 (Recess.)
11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on video at 1:36 p.m.
12 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Good afternoon, Mr. Lee.
13 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. We're going to mark, actually we have marked,
17 a couple more exhibits.
18 As Lee Exhibit 9 we've marked some excerpts
19 from audio and video clips that you're involved in, and
20 we're going to be going to be listening and watching.
21 And Lee 10, a compendium of labels from the
22 University of Wyoming American Heritage Center which
23 labels various of these audio and videos indicating their
24 dates and when they were done and with whom.
25 Now, and I believe did we give copies to Mr.

JA2523
Page 104
1 S. LEE
2 Toberoff? That's what those are.
3 Now, Mr. Lee, you have given a lot of
4 interviews over the years on the subject matter of the
5 comic book industry?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And also many speeches?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you've been involved in seminars?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Excuse me, if I can interrupt.
12 This disk which says Stanley Deposition, is this from the
13 University of Wyoming?
14 MR. QUINN: I believe the materials that are
15 on that disk or most of them were from the University of
16 Wyoming.
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Okay. And this is 10?
18 MR. QUINN: That's 9. The labels are 10.
20 Q. BY MR. QUINN: And were some or many of those
21 interviews and speeches and seminars recorded visually or
22 sometimes on audio?
23 A. Some were. Yes.
24 Q. And did there come a time when you donated
25 copies of these videos and recordings to the University of

JA2524
Page 105
1 S. LEE
2 Wyoming?
3 A. Yes. I had so much around the house I didn't
4 know what to do with it, and they offered to keep my
5 effects and archive what they have.
6 Q. And was there a particular reason why you
7 chose the University of Wyoming?
8 A. Silly. If I had thought about it, I would
9 have gone to a closer college. But they told me that Jack
10 Benny had his archive there, and they would put mine next
11 to his. And I was a big fan of Jack Benny's, and I
12 figured if they have him, it must be a good archive.
13 Q. Now, what I would like to do is play some
14 audio and video for you and ask you some questions about
15 these particular excerpts.
16 I believe according to the Wyoming archives in
17 1966 you were interviewed by a man by the name of Jim
18 Saunders on his Gabfest program on the radio. And I want
19 to play an excerpt from that audio, and we'll have some
20 questions about that.
21 (Audio recording playing.)
22 Q. Now, was that your voice?
23 A. It seems to be. Yes.
24 Q. And was you describing -- what you told us was
25 essentially the Marvel method in that recording?

JA2525
Page 106
1 S. LEE
2 A. I have to be honest. I couldn't hear it very
3 clearly, but I'm always talking about the Marvel method.
4 Q. And what you did here, is that consistent with
5 your recollection?
6 A. Yeah. Yes.
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Could I just ask you? Are you
8 going to -- the copies here, Lee 10, you've given me
9 copies of audio disks or video disks with labels, the
10 packaging, packaging for the disk with a label. This is
11 how it appears at the University of Wyoming?
12 MR. QUINN: These labels (indicating)?
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Yeah.
14 MR. QUINN: Yes.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: And are you -- you played an
16 excerpt from the first one in this package you've given me
17 Barry Gray January 31st, 1966. Is that what you just
18 played?
19 MR. QUINN: I think we just played one from
20 1966, a different one. It was identified on the record,
21 Gabfest.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: So are you going to be
23 producing the whole interview from which you just played
24 this tiny excerpt?
25 MR. QUINN: Yes, we would be producing that.

JA2526
Page 107
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Are you going to supply that to
3 me today?
4 MR. QUINN: I don't think we have it all here
5 today, but we will get it to you promptly.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: You have to sit where you can
8 hear it.
9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I should. I will move
10 over there next time.
11 MR. TOBEROFF: And Court Reporter, are you
12 taking down the audio?
13 THE REPORTER: No. Mr. Quinn said he didn't
14 need me to.
15 MR. TOBEROFF: I think the court reporter
16 should take down the audio because, you know, the disks
17 you're supplying me with on the deposition to make the
18 deposition understandable I think she should take down the
19 audio that he's responding to.
20 MR. QUINN: It's not a problem one way or the
21 other, but it is on the disk. So you can play it, and you
22 will hear it.
23 MR. FLEISCHER: It's not customary to have
24 her --
25 MR. TOBEROFF: Yes, but to have a --

JA2527
Page 108
1 S. LEE
2 MR. QUINN: It's not. I think Mr. Fleischer
3 is correct; it is not customary to do that.
4 But if you're able to take it down, do the
5 best you can. But that disk is the actual record. It is,
6 in fact, an exhibit to the deposition. So she may or may
7 not get it correctly given the fact that it's going to be
8 difficult to hear.
9 MR. TOBEROFF: I guess my question is the
10 exhibit to the deposition is going to be that short little
11 part of the interview that you just played or is it going
12 to be the entire interview?
13 MR. QUINN: To the deposition? The exhibit is
14 going to be what we have marked as the exhibit, which is
15 the excerpts.
17 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Okay. Now, hopefully we'll
18 have that and you'll hear it a little bit better. We have
19 another excerpt. And this one I want to make sure that
20 you can hear.
21 This is, according to the University of
22 Wyoming archives, an interview you gave to a Mr. Mike
23 O'Dell, WBAI-FM New York radio in March of 1967, you and
24 also Jack Kirby.
25 Do you recall from time to time that you gave

JA2528
Page 109
1 S. LEE
2 interviews with both yourself and on some occasions Mr.
3 Kirby?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can we play that and let's make sure it's loud
6 enough.
7 (Audio playing. Reported as follows:)
8
9 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Mr. Lee and Mr. Kirby
10 are going to be asked some questions about their
11 superheroes. And I guess the first one would be
12 addressed to Stan Lee, and it's the title of this
13 program. Stan will success spoil Spider-Man?
14 Now that Captain America is back in the fight is
15 there going to be talk about sending --
16
17 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, I can't take that.
18 Q. Did you hear that clearly?
19 A. I couldn't make out what the question was. I
20 could make out --
21 Q. Let's play it again.
22 A. Maybe if it is a little lower. See, my
23 problem is I have a hearing problem. I can hear, but
24 sometimes if the speech isn't clear, I can't make out the
25 words. It sounds like blah, blah, blah. You know what I

JA2529
Page 110
1 S. LEE
2 mean?
3 Q. Yep. I know What you mean exactly.
4 MR. TOBEROFF: That sounds that for us also.
5 MR. QUINN: Let's play it again.
6 (Audio playing. Reported as follows:)
7
8 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Mr. Lee and Mr. Kirby
9 are going to be asked some questions about their
10 superheroes. And I guess the first one would be
11 addressed to Stan Lee, and it's the title of this
12 program. Stan will success spoil Spider-Man?
13
14 THE WITNESS: That's what I didn't -- Stan
15 what?
16 MR. QUINN: "Will success spoil Spider-Man?"
17 THE WITNESS: Oh, will success spoil
18 spider-man.
19 MR. QUINN: Then there's a question directed
20 to Mr. Kirby. Play that.
21 (Audio recording playing.)
22 THE REPORTER: I can't report that.
23 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Now, what I want to ask you is:
24 Whose voice was that that we just heard?
25 A. That was Jack Kirby's very distinctive voice.

JA2530
Page 111
1 S. LEE
2 Q. And when Mr. Kirby said in that interview we
3 just heard that "The editor always has the last word on
4 that," is that -- you agree with that?
5 A. Was he referring to the question, Would
6 success spoiled Spider-Man?
7 Q. No, he was referring to whether Captain
8 America was going to be sent to Viet Nam.
9 A. I didn't hear that. Well, yes. I -- if
10 Captain America had been in this country, and one of the
11 writers decided, hey, I think I'd like to send him to Viet
12 Nam and let him be part of the Vietnamese war or whatever,
13 then I would have had to say okay. Or I might have said
14 to the writer, no, I'd rather keep him here.
15 Q. So you agree with Mr. Kirby that the editor
16 always has the last word on that?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. TOBEROFF: Counsel, are you going to be
19 providing me at this deposition with a copy of these
20 excerpts?
21 MR. QUINN: You have a copy of the excerpts in
22 your hand.
23 MR. TOBEROFF: They're all --
24 MR. QUINN: We're going to listen to them all
25 together.

JA2531
Page 112
1 S. LEE
2 MR. TOBEROFF: No, I'm talking about --
3 MS. SINGER: They're all on that disk.
4 MR. TOBEROFF: This is the Stanley deposition
5 and the audios on this disk?
6 MS. SINGER: It's the clip from the Stanley
7 deposition. It's all the audio and video.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: That was unclear to me. Thank
9 you.
10 MR. QUINN: Okay. The next excerpt, according
11 to the archives in Wyoming, involves questions that were
12 being posed by an unknown French man to you. And let's
13 play that. And I'm going to ask you some questions about
14 that.
15
16 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Again on this interview
17 from this guy in France, my method for the
18 construction of the script consists of discussing
19 the story with the artist and having the artist
20 do the penciled artwork on his own, drawing
21 whatever he wants so long as it tells the story
22 we've discussed.
23 I then would put in the dialogue and the
24 captions and indicate where the dialogue and the
25 captions -- where the dialogue balloons are to be

JA2532
Page 113
1 S. LEE
2 placed and where the captions go. And then the
3 script goes to the inker. It's lettered, of
4 course. And I have it proofread and that's it.
5 I proofread it myself really if it's my own
6 story.
7
8 THE WITNESS: Wow.
9 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Is that consistent -- that's
10 your voice, isn't it?
11 A. What I could hear sounded right, the dialogue
12 and the captions. And it goes to the -- yeah, that was
13 me.
14 Q. And that was the method you used?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Let's go to the next excerpt, this one from
17 the archives is marked as NYU-TV and dated March 16th,
18 1972.
19 (Audio recording playing. Reported as
20 follows:)
21
22 UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Good morning. I
23 wonder if you could tell us who you are and what
24 you do, for people that don't know.
25 STAN LEE: My name is Stan Lee, and I

JA2533
Page 114
1 S. LEE
2 produce comic books. There are 50 million
3 reasons why we change artists. Sometimes we do
4 it because the book isn't selling well to hype up
5 sales. Sometimes we do it because an artist is
6 simply tired of the job. He says, if you don't
7 take me off this thing, I will go out of my
8 skull, and I want to do something else.
9 Sometimes we do it it's like falling
10 dominos. An artist is late or is sick, and his
11 book is late, so we have to take an artist off
12 this strip to do that book quickly to make the
13 printing date. So we have to take another artist
14 off this book to do this book which this artist
15 came off. Now we have to take an artist off this
16 book to do this book, and it goes right down the
17 line.
18
19 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Again, is that your voice we
20 just heard?
21 A. Yeah, that was definitely me.
22 Q. And is that consistent with your recollection
23 as to how you dealt with artists during that period of
24 time?
25 A. Well, I caught the falling dominos part. I

JA2534
Page 115
1 S. LEE
2 really couldn't understand what came ahead of it, but the
3 falling dominos was correct.
4 Q. And what do you recollect about the falling
5 dominos?
6 A. Well, it was like if an artist couldn't do one
7 book, you had to take another artist and give him that
8 book, but then that artist had to be replaced on his book
9 by another artist. And you had to keep shuffling them
10 around.
11 Q. And who was in charge of shuffling them
12 around?
13 A. Well, I was.
14 Q. Now we have a video. This one is dated --
15 A. That might be easier to hear.
16 Q. We can hope. This one is dated from January
17 12th, 2000. And according to the archives in Wyoming,
18 University of Wyoming, it is an interview video that was
19 done and distributed by the, I guess, Disney Feature
20 Animation.
21 Why don't we play this one.
22 (Video recording playing. Reported as
23 follows:)
24
25 STAN LEE: Years later, Jack came back. I

JA2535
Page 116
1 S. LEE
2 don't remember, I guess it was in the 50s. And
3 it was great. And I would write scripts, and
4 Jack would do the artwork.
5 But then, we were such a small company. I
6 was doing most of the writing, most of the books.
7 And let's say I would be writing a story for Jack
8 and one of the other artists. Steve Ditko might
9 walk in or John Buscema or Romita or somebody,
10 and they needed a script. Now, these guys were
11 all freelancers. And if I didn't have a script
12 for them, they weren't getting paid. They were
13 standing around with nothing to do.
14 So I hadn't finished typing the script for
15 Kirby, and here is Romita who needs a script. So
16 I said, "Look, John. I can't stop what I'm
17 doing, but here's the story that I would like you
18 to do. I will tell it to you. You draw it any
19 way you want. I will put in the dialogue and the
20 captions later." And he did.
21 Then Ditko would walk in, and I would say
22 that to him, and Gil Kane, and whoever they were.
23 Now, it was done originally in order to save
24 time. It was sort of an emergency situation, but
25 I found we're getting better stories and artwork

JA2536
Page 117
1 S. LEE
2 that way. Because instead of me writing Panel 1,
3 closeup, blah blah blah; Panel 2 a longshot from
4 up above or whatever, I was leaving it to the
5 artist.
6 And I was very lucky, because I had the kind
7 of artists who were great visual storytellers,
8 and I'm sure that they dreamed up shots that I
9 never would have even thought of. So when I got
10 the artwork back from them, it was beautiful,
11 because they had the freedom to tell the story in
12 their own way visually.
13 Also, it was easier for me then to write the
14 dialogue, because as you can imagine, if you're
15 typing and looking at a blank sheet of paper,
16 you're imagining what the people would say. And
17 you're imagining how they would look in the
18 drawing.
19 But when you have the drawing in front of
20 you, and when you see somebody drawn like,
21 aagghh! (indicating), you know, you write
22 "Aagghh!" It makes it so obvious.
23 And what started as an emergency situation,
24 it turned out, I thought, to be the best way to
25 do the stories. And that, after awhile, became

JA2537
Page 118
1 S. LEE
2 known as the Marvel Method.
3 And Jack Kirby and I would, let's say when
4 we did the Fantastic Four, I first wrote a
5 synopsis of what I thought the Fantastic Four
6 should be, who the characters should be, what
7 their personalities were. And I gave it to Jack,
8 and then I told him what I thought the first
9 story should be, how to open it, who the villain
10 should be, and how we would end it. And that was
11 all. Jack went home and drew the whole thing. I
12 put the dialogue in.
13 And it turned out to be quite successful,
14 and we worked that way for years.
15
16 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Now, did I correctly recognize
17 that to be a slightly younger version of you?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Sorry, I didn't have my microphone on.
20 That was you up there on the screen we just
21 saw?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. Couple years ago?
24 A. Mm-hmm.
25 Q. You haven't changed much. And what you were

JA2538
Page 119
1 S. LEE
2 describing there was essentially the Marvel method?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that what was -- and the Jack that was
5 being referred to repeatedly was Jack Kirby?
6 A. Jack Kirby. Always.
7 Q. Let me just play two more, couple of more
8 clips or another clip from that same interview.
10 follows:)
11
12 STAN LEE: What input did I have in the
13 visual development of the Marvel characters?
14 Well, I had a lot of input in one sense. When I
15 created the characters and the idea for the
16 story, I would tell the artist how I wanted him
17 to look.
18
19 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Now, is that consistent with
20 your recollection of how you operated back in the 50s and
21 60s?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And one more clip from that same interview.
24 (Videorecording playing. Reported as
25 follows:)

JA2539
Page 120
1 S. LEE
2
3 STAN LEE: I never owned these
4 characters. I did them as a work for hire. So
5 the company owned the characters.
6
7 Q. BY MR. QUINN: And that's still consistent
8 with what you believe today?
9 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I want to mark, and I think we may have
12 already marked it this one -- I don't think we have a copy
13 of, but I'm only going to ask you a couple of questions --
14 as Exhibit 12. It's a book entitled, "Origins of Marvel
15 Comics," by Stan Lee.
16 And could you tell us what that book is?
17 A. At some time in the past Simon & Schuster
18 wanted to do a book about Marvel, and they asked me to
19 write it. And they wanted to know how I came up with the
20 ideas for the various characters, what the origins were of
21 the characters. So I turned out this book, and they sold
22 it.
23 It did very well, actually. They asked for a
24 sequel. I did "Son of Origins of Marvel." Then I did one
25 about the villains called, "Bring on the Bad Guys." And

JA2540
Page 121
1 S. LEE
2 then I did one about the females called, I think, The
3 Superhero Women." So there were four books in the set,
4 and this was the first one.
5 Q. This one I note was copyrighted in 1974. Was
6 that approximately when you did this book?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And when you were doing this book and the
9 other three books that make up the series, did you make an
10 effort to be as accurate as possible?
11 A. I always try to be accurate.
12 Q. And as truthful as possible?
13 A. Yes. I had to be because people were going to
14 be reading it. And if I wrote anything that wasn't so,
15 I'd sure hear about it.
16 Q. And okay. I want to go back over a little bit
17 of the ground we already covered but using some excerpts
18 from things that you've written or said in connection with
19 the creation of some of the characters that we've talked
20 about already.
21 And let me mark or I think we have now marked
22 another book entitled, "Stan Lee: Conversations," which
23 we've marked as Stan Lee 11. And I'm going to ask you
24 whether you're familiar with this particular book.

JA2541
Page 122
1 S. LEE
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And whose mug is on that face? Whose face is
4 on the --
5 A. Oh, that's mine.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Did you mark the prior book?
7 MR. QUINN: Yes, I believe we did. Have we
8 marked this one?
9 THE REPORTER: Yes, bottom right. Oh, it's on
10 this copy.
11 MR. QUINN: Yeah, that one is marked. I need
12 to get you copies of all of these.
13 MR. TOBEROFF: You don't have a copy of those?
14 MR. QUINN: Today I do not have a copy of
15 that.
16 MR. TOBEROFF: I don't know why -- with all
17 this technology around, and all these video clips and
18 audio clips, you can't copy a book on a xerox machine and
19 give it to me at the deposition?
20 MR. QUINN: Well, I'm sure we'll be able to
21 get it to you, you know, promptly. The book, as I
22 understand, happens to be very difficult to obtain. But,
23 in any event, let's --
24 Do we have a copy of -- no, the "Stan Lee:
25 Conversations" book. You have a copy of that one, I,

JA2542
Page 123
1 S. LEE
2 believe, or the excerpts that we're going to refer to, mr.
3 Toberoff.
4 You can certainly utilize the one that's
5 marked if you would like with regard to "The Origins of
6 Marvel Comics," since I'm not going to ask him any
7 questions about it beyond his identifying it.
8 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Let's take a look, if you
9 would, at page 137.
10 A. Which book?
11 Q. Of the red book right there, the one that has
12 your picture on the cover.
13 First of all, tell me what this book is.
14 A. Oh, I have a fan whose been writing to me a
15 lot who is a professor at some Canadian college. And one
16 day he asked if I would mind if he did a book. He
17 collected a lot of interviews I'd done, and would I mind
18 if he put some of those interviews in book form, because
19 he's expect -- as part of his job at the college, he's
20 supposed to do books every so often. And he chose this
21 subject. And I said, Sure, you know, be my guest. And
22 this is the book he did.
23 Q. So this is a compendium of interviews that you
24 gave over the course of I believe about 30 years? Because
25 it covers --

JA2543
Page 124
1 S. LEE
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. -- from 1972 to the late 90s.
4 A. I never really looked at the years, but, yes,
5 he took various things that he could find from my
6 interviews and put them in a book.
7 Q. Okay. And let's look at I believe so we have
8 that for the record this was a book that shows it has a
9 copyright of 2007. Is that about when he --
10 A. Yeah, I guess so.
11 Q. -- when it was distributed? Okay. Could you
12 take a look at page 137 of this book.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. And this is an interview according to page 134
15 that you gave to Roy Thomas in 1998. You've already told
16 us who Mr. Thomas is.
17 And I want you to refer specifically to
18 towards the bottom of page 137. I'm just going to read an
19 excerpt from what you are answering. Mr. Thomas has asked
20 you:
21 That would have been in very late '40 or
22 early '41 in terms of when the issues left the
23 office. Less than a year later, you became the
24 temporary Editor. That lasted for decades.
25 Now skipping ahead to 1961, the story has

JA2544
Page 125
1 S. LEE
2 often been told of this infamous legendary golf
3 game with Martin Goodman and DC President Jack
4 Liebowitz in which Mr. Liebowitz bragged about
5 the sales of Justice League of America. And
6 Goodman came back and told you to start a
7 superhero book.
8 Was that story really true?
9 A. Yes, as far as I know it was. He told me he
10 had been playing golf with -- I think it was Jack
11 Leibowitz. Somebody who was high up at DC. And they told
12 him that the Justice League was a big-selling book. So he
13 came and said, Let's do one like it with a lot of heroes.
14 Q. And you answer here:
15 That's absolutely true. He came in to see
16 me one day and said, "I've been playing golf with
17 Jack Leibowitz." They were pretty friendly. And
18 he said, "Jack was telling me that the Justice
19 League is selling very well and why don't you do
20 a book about a group of superheroes. That's how
21 we happened to do the Fantastic Four.
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And that's consistent with your recollection
24 and your prior testimony?
25 A. Yes.

JA2545
Page 126
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Now, could we now play from the University of
3 Wyoming archives a portion of a talk according to the
4 archives you gave at the Atlanta Fantasy Fair on July
5 26th, 1984. I'm going to show you a clip from that.
7 follows:)
8
9 STAN LEE: Martin came to me one day. He
10 said, "You know, Stan, I was looking for sales
11 figures, and DC has a book called" -- I never can
12 remember is it Justice League or Justice Society,
13 but whatever it was. He said, "It's selling
14 pretty well. Maybe there's a market for a team
15 of superheroes. Why don't you come up with one."
16 And I said okay. But I didn't want just
17 another DC type, you know, of a team of
18 superheroes. Not that there's anything wrong
19 with what they did. So I had to do a team
20 because that's what the publisher wanted, but I
21 had to try to figure out a way to do it
22 differently.
23 And I figured, okay, what can we do that's
24 different. Let's make a team that doesn't always
25 get along well together. They fight amongst

JA2546
Page 127
1 S. LEE
2 themselves. Let's have the girl be the fiancee
3 of the hero, so it's not a case of she doesn't
4 know his identity or anything. They're about to
5 get married, and in a later issue we'll have them
6 get married and have a kid and all that. And
7 let's make one of the heroes an ugly guy, and
8 that'd be a good thing.
9 And then I thought it would be really great
10 to take a character from the 1930s and bring him
11 back again. That would be Human Torch, whom I
12 had always loved. But I decided to make him a
13 teenager, which I had always hated, but I figured
14 I'll make him act like a real teenager. He's
15 rotten and nasty and fights with The Thing.
16
17 A. Boy, I was good.
18 Q. That was you up there in that video?
19 A. It sure was.
20 Q. And who was the other guy?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Was it Jim Shooter?
23 A. Mm?
24 Q. Was it Jim Shooter?
25 A. It could have been. I was looking at me.

JA2547
Page 128
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Could you identify or tell us who Jim
3 Shooter --
4 A. Jim Shooter was -- at some point he became
5 Editor-in-Chief of Marvel, and he was there for a few
6 years. I forget the exact years. Way after Roy Thomas.
7 Q. Sometime after Roy Thomas?
8 A. Right. He was more recently the
9 Editor-in-Chief.
10 Q. And looking at that video excerpt again,
11 that's consistent with your recollection as to how the
12 Fantastic Four was created?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Next we have a video. I guess, I think it's
15 from the same interview we saw before. This is the Disney
16 Feature Animation interview, January 12th, 2000. And this
17 one relates to the Silver Surfer.
18 Can we play Silver Surfer.
20 follows:)
21
22 STAN LEE: I remember saying to Jack, I want
23 to get a villain who is more powerful than any
24 other. Let's call him Galactus, and let's make
25 him a demigod. Because we already had Dr. Doom,

JA2548
Page 129
1 S. LEE
2 who was the king of his own country. How can you
3 be bigger than that? So we came up with
4 Galactus.
5 Okay. Now, I gave Jack a rough idea of the
6 story. He drew it and gave to me. And when I
7 looked at the artwork, there is some naked nut on
8 a flying surfboard that I didn't (laughter.) I
9 didn't know anything about him.
10 I said, "Who is this?" So this is what made
11 the work fun. I never knew what to expect.
12 So Jack said, "Well, I figure anybody as
13 powerful as Galactus who wants to destroy planets
14 ought to have a herald who goes ahead of him and
15 finds the planets." I thought that was a great
16 idea. So normally Galactus would have just been
17 a herald -- I mean, the Silver Surfer would say,
18 Hey, Galactus, there's a planet. Go get it, you
19 know. But there was something about the way that
20 Jack drew the Silver Surfer in the artwork. He
21 had a certain nobility. He was so great looking.
22 And I said you know, Jack, let's really --
23 because Jack figured we'd only use him once and
24 throw him away. I said, "I like this guy. Let's
25 use him."

JA2549
Page 130
1 S. LEE
2 And little by little we started putting him
3 in the stories. And the next thing I knew I have
4 him philosophizing and moralizing and all the
5 corny bits of philosophy that I might have liked
6 to find a way to get across started coming out of
7 the Silver Surfer's mouth.
8 Q. And once again, that's you up there --
9 A. It certainly is.
10 Q. -- on the screen? And that's consistent with
11 your recollection as to how Silver Surfer came about?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let's go -- let's look back at this book
14 again, the book which is "Stan Lee: Conversations," and
15 focus on page 96. Now, this is from an interview that you
16 gave to, according to page 85, an interview with Stan Lee
17 by Leonard Pitts in 1981.
18 And this was one of the many interviews that
19 you gave during this period of time?
20 A. Mm-hmm.
21 Q. Let's look at page 96. And in the middle of
22 the page Pitts is asking you about Spider-Man. And you
23 say:
24 I remember when I was a kid 10 years old.
25 There was a pulp magazine called "The Spider,

JA2550
Page 131
1 S. LEE
2 Master of Men." And I always thought that title
3 was so dramatic. He was nothing like Spider-Man.
4 He was just a detective who wore a mask, and he
5 went around punching people. He wore a ring with
6 a spider insignia so when he punched somebody it
7 would leave a little mark of a spider on the
8 person. And I figured, gee, why not call the
9 guy, my guy, Spider-Man.
10
11 And Pitts asked you, "Although Spider-Man is
12 arguably the most popular single superhero in comics,
13 legend has it that your publisher, Martin Goodman, took a
14 lot of convincing when you wanted to try the character
15 out."
16 And you say: "He said it was the worst idea
17 he ever heard. He said people hate spiders, and it
18 sounded too much like Superman, the idea of someone
19 sticking to the wall and stuff. He called it grotesque."
20 And do you recall that interview, and is that
21 consistent with your recollection of the development of
22 Spider-Man?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. We have another track that according to the
25 University of Wyoming archives is a lecture that you gave

JA2551
Page 132
1 S. LEE
2 at Virginia Tech. You'd get around back in those days.
3 A. Yeah, I did.
4 Q. A lecture that you gave at Virginia Tech on
5 November 15th, 1977. And I'd like to play that one for
6 you as well.
8 follows:)
9
10 STAN LEE: One reason was as a kid I had
11 loved a pulp magazine named The Spider. I was
12 very young and probably very stupid. And to me,
13 the most dramatic thing I could think of the
14 cover of this magazine, the series of magazines,
15 was like The Shadow but not as famous.
16 It said The Spider, and underneath it,
17 Master of Men. Somehow to me at the age of nine
18 The Spider, Master of Men. Oh, I would love to
19 be -- who wouldn't want to be a Master of Men?
20 And he had a ring, and he would punch a bad guy
21 in the face. And it had a little spider thing on
22 the ring, and it would leave a spider mark on the
23 guy's jaw.
24 I mean, you know, next to Shakespeare...
25 So when I was looking around for a

JA2552
Page 133
1 S. LEE
2 character, I felt, gee, I've always kind of liked
3 The Spider. Why don't I get a guy and call him
4 Spider-Man.
5 So I presented that to my publisher, who as
6 you may have gathered by now is a model of
7 erudition. And he said, "Nah, nobody likes
8 spiders. That's no good."
9 So I said, "Well, it's not a case of people
10 liking spiders. Remember there used to be a
11 Green Hornet. I don't think people are turned on
12 to hornets."
13 "Nah, I don't like it. Forget it."
14 Anyway, I couldn't get him to advance the
15 funds to put out this book. So finally we
16 introduced Spider-Man in another magazine called
17 Amazing Adult Stories, which we were going to
18 kill. The book was dying. And at the last issue
19 of that book when we were about to kill it off,
20 just to get it out of my system, I threw the
21 Spider-Man story in.
22 We got our sales figures later, and it was
23 the best-selling book we had ever had. We made
24 it into a series. And a few months later my
25 publisher came to me and he said, "You know,

JA2553
Page 134
1 S. LEE
2 Stan? Spider-Man, the best idea I ever had."
3 That was it.
4 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Again, that was you talking
5 about the origins of Spider-man?
6 A. That's right.
8 as to how Spider-Man came about?
9 A. More or less. Yeah.
10 Q. Let's talk about The Hulk. You have an
11 excerpt, according to the University of Wyoming archives,
12 of a speech that you gave at the L.A. Festival of Books in
13 May of 1998. And this particular part focuses on creation
14 of The Hulk.
16 follows:)
17
18 STAN LEE: My publisher, at that time I
19 worked for a publisher, and he said, "Hey, come
20 up with something else." So I was trying to
21 think what could be different than a guy who
22 bursts into flame and flies, an invisible
23 woman, an orange skin (unintelligible), and a guy
24 who stretches.
25 And I remembered I had always loved the

JA2554
Page 135
1 S. LEE
2 Frankenstein movie. You know, the one with
3 Karloff. I always thought that the monster was
4 really the good guy. He didn't want to hurt
5 anybody, but those idiots with torches were
6 chasing him up and down the mountains and making
7 his life miserable.
8 Then I also liked Jekyll and Hyde. I loved
9 the idea that this nice gentle dignified
10 intelligent doctor -- I'm sure it was modeled
11 after me -- he suddenly turned into the most
12 savage evil guy in the world. And I thought, why
13 don't I combine the two?
14 I will take a normal guy, that was Dr. Bruce
15 Banner, and I will have him turn into a monster.
16 But this monster would be good like I thought the
17 Frankenstein monster was. But nobody will know
18 he's good.
19 Anyway, I came to my publisher, and I said,
20 "Hey, I've got an idea for you for the next book.
21 We're going to do a green skinned monster."
22 He said, "That's great. That's a great
23 villain." He said, "Who's the hero?"
24 I said, "He's the hero." He is said, "Wait
25 a minute, Stan. You just said you're going to do

JA2555
Page 136
1 S. LEE
2 a green-skinned monster."
3 Oh, wait a minute. I'm lying to you. I
4 wanted him to be gray skinned, and I don't
5 remember why. I don't know why I thought of
6 gray, but I thought that was kind of mysterious
7 and dark. So in the first issue, those of you
8 who may have even seen it, he had gray skin.
9 But here is what happened. The printing
10 presses, I guess, weren't as well made or as
11 sophisticated in those days, and on some of the
12 pages his skin was light gray. On some it was
13 medium gray. On some it was totally black. Some
14 -- it was different shades on every page.
15 So there are no flies on me. And since when
16 you're the writer of a comic book you can do
17 anything, you're like God, so I said the second
18 issue we're going to change his skin color. And
19 I looked around. What color aren't we using?
20 And it happened that nobody was green at the
21 moment. So I made this very intelligent
22 decision. I said let's make him green.
23
24 Q. Again, that was you?
25 A. Yes, it is.

JA2556
Page 137
1 S. LEE
3 with regard to the creation of the Hulk?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Now we have one relating to Iron Man. And
6 this is an excerpt according to the archives at Wyoming of
7 a speech that you gave July 1st, 1984, a talk at the
8 Heroes Convention in Charlotte, North Carolina.
9 Let's play this one.
11 follows:)
12
13 STAN LEE: By the time we did Iron Man, we
14 were really facing challenges. And I was drunk
15 with power, and I was looking to do things that
16 nobody thought could be done.
17 Young people, as you know, are not really
18 big war fans. And everybody said, Stan, you
19 can't do a comic book where the hero is a guy who
20 manufactures munitions for the war effort. This
21 is not going to seem glamorous to our readers.
22 And also he's a big industrialist and a (
23 (unintelligible.) In those days people were
24 intent on being hippies and naturalistic stuff.
25 But here's this guy who represented the

JA2557
Page 138
1 S. LEE
2 Establishment.
3 I said, wouldn't it be something if we could
4 do him and make him popular. And of course the
5 one way to make anybody popular is you make him
6 tragic or pathetic in some way. So I tried to
7 turn him into something pathetic. I said a weak
8 heart is as good as anything.
9 And we did succeed. And I'm
10 happy to say that the readers did kind of like
11 him. I always thought of modeling him after
12 Howard Hughes. I thought of him as a sane Howard
13 Hughes.
14
15 Q. BY MR. QUINN: And that was a sane Stan Lee?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And that also that video clip is consistent
18 with your recollection as to the creation of Iron Man?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Only a couple more. Let's focus on Thor. You
21 testified previously about Thor.
22 We have a clip that, according to the
23 University of Wyoming archives, you did an interview with
24 a Dick Syaitt, WFAA News Talk Radio in Dallas. This is
25 dated May 1977.

JA2558
Page 139
1 S. LEE
2 And I'm going to play a clip of that interview
3 for you. I think this is an audio.
4 (Audio recording playing. Reported as
5 follows:)
6
7 DICK SYAITT: I'm Dick Syaitt on WFAA News
8 Talk 57. Stan Lee is on the line with us.
9 STAN LEE: You know we needed new heroes.
10 Finally I said to myself, the only thing stronger
11 than what we have, The Hulk is the strongest
12 mortal on earth. We'll get a guy who is a God.
13 Nobody has really done anything with gods lately.
14 So I thought to myself, let's see now. What kind
15 of gods are there? People -- there have been a
16 lot of stories about Greek gods and Roman gods.
17 Nobody has really done much with Norse gods.
18 That ought to be interesting.
19 DICK SYAITT: Norse gods?
20 STAN LEE: Norse, you know, N-O-R-S-E, you
21 know?
22 DICK SYAITT: Yeah.
23 STAN LEE: So, okay. I thought I'd always
24 liked the idea of Thor, the God of Thunder. And
25 I had seen pictures of him, and I read a lot of

JA2559
Page 140
1 S. LEE
2 books of legend when I was young. And there was
3 always a shot of Thor with a huge hammer, you
4 know. And I figured hey, that will be great. We
5 give Thor -- what a great weapon a hammer will
6 be, because the superhero always needs some sort
7 of a visual gimmick.
8 And I enjoyed the idea that
9 later on I could have him talk not in normal
10 dialogue like, "Take that, you rat," but "Thou
11 based varlot," pseudo-Shakespearean and biblical
12 dialogue.
13
14 Q. BY MR. QUINN: And once again that was your
15 voice?
16 A. Very much so.
17 Q. And again is that consistent with your
18 recollection --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- concerning the --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- creation of Thor?
23 Okay. Let's look at page 96 of the "Stan Lee:
24 Conversations" book. And again, this goes back to the
25 interview you gave to Leonard Pitts back in 1981. And

JA2560
Page 141
1 S. LEE
2 this part of the interview is discussing the X-Men.
3 And --
4 A. What page --
5 Q. The X-Men.
6 A. -- did you say?
7 Q. Page 96, towards the top of the page.
8 Pitts is asking you, "The X-Men." And you
9 respond:
10 They were originally called The Mutants, but
11 my publisher at the time thought that the readers
12 wouldn't know what a mutant was, so I changed it
13 to The X-Men. We're always looking for new
14 superheroes not so much for new heroes as for new
15 explanations of how they came about. And I was
16 getting tired of radioactive accidents. I felt
17 why not get some people who were born the way
18 they are who had mutant powers. So we created
19 X-Men.
20
21 And that's consistent with your
22 recollection --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- with regard to the creation of X-Men?
25 And last but not least, we have a video also

JA2561
Page 142
1 S. LEE
2 part of that interview you gave on January 12th, 2000.
3 And this one focuses on X-Men.
5 follows:)
6
7 STAN LEE: And that was how it started. I
8 said, Hey, I'm going to use mutants. Then they
9 can be whatever they want to be. Hey, they were
10 born mutants. Prove them wrong.
11 So then I had to figure out who they'd be.
12 And, oh, I got to tell you a funny thing. Here
13 again I had a thing with my publisher. I wanted
14 to call the book, The Mutants. I thought it was
15 very dramatic: The Mutants.
16 He said, Stan, he patted me on the head,
17 "Stan, our readers won't know what a mutant is.
18 Well, he was still paying my salary, so I said I
19 have to come up with another name.
20 Incidentally, I'm having a great
21 time.
22 So I have to come up with another name.
23 And I thought, and I thought, and I don't
24 remember whether I got the name first or I
25 thought of Professor Xavier first, but somehow or

JA2562
Page 143
1 S. LEE
2 other we have Professor Xavier with an X. And I
3 figured these characters have an extra power,
4 their mutant power, and somehow the idea hit me,
5 Let's call them The X-Men. A little bit sexist
6 perhaps, there was a girl in the group, but
7 nobody protested in those days.
8 So we called them the X-Men. And I
9 presented that title to my publisher, who said
10 now that's a good title. And I said to myself,
11 if the readers won't know what a mutant is, how
12 will they know what the hell an X-Man is? But I
13 needed a title, and I didn't want to argue, and
14 there we were.
15
16 Q. BY MR. QUINN: That's you again?
17 A. That's my recollection.
18 Q. Consistent with your recollection --
19 A. Consistent.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Getting to talk like a lawyer.
22 Q. Please don't. Stay as a comic book person.
23 Let's go back for one second to -- we have a
24 copy of what we first marked as Stan Lee Exhibit 1, which
25 was the affidavit with the attached schedule. It's

JA2563
Page 144
1 S. LEE
2 probably in that pile somewhere.
3 I believe this is an affidavit that you
4 testified about earlier, Mr. Lee. And it was a schedule
5 of characters attached to the affidavit.
6 And the question I really just have -- you can
7 take a look at the schedule. These are all I believe you
8 testified characters that you either created or
9 co-created.
10 A. (Marking.) (Document review.)
11 There are three of them here that I'm not
12 really sure of. I don't really remember them that well.
13 The one is Richard Fisk. I don't remember that one. I
14 may have created him. I just don't remember.
15 The other one is Mr. Fear a/k/a Machine Smith.
16 I don't remember that.
17 And there's one Ymir, I guess. I don't recall
18 that.
19 The others, though, I think --
20 Q. You do recall all those and created or
21 co-created the others?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Those three you just don't have a clear
24 recollection of?
25 A. Pardon me?

JA2564
Page 145
1 S. LEE
2 Q. Those three you have no clear recollection
3 of --
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. -- one way or the other?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. The question I have for you really is very
8 simple. You testified at some length over the last few
9 hours about the manner in which characters were created at
10 Marvel.
11 A. Mm-hmm.
12 Q. And was that same method used in connection
13 with the creation of the characters that are set forth on
14 Schedule A?
15 A. I'm sorry, would you say the last part of
16 that?
17 Q. Was the same method used in the creation of
18 the characters that are set forth on Schedule A?
19 A. Oh, yeah. Sure.
20 Q. It was the same kind of method?
21 A. Right.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Are you referring to the Marvel
23 method?
24 MR. QUINN: The methodology that he's
25 testified to over the last several hours is what I'm

JA2565
Page 146
1 S. LEE
2 referring to.
3 Q. The answer is yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague and ambiguous.
6 MR. QUINN: I have no further questions at
7 this time.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: I have no questions. I'm
9 reserving my questions for Defendants' deposition of Mr.
10 Lee.
11 MR. LIEBERMAN: We're gone.
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Any stipulations?
13 MR. QUINN: No.
14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes today's
15 deposition of Stan Lee. Number of DVDs used were two.
16 Off video at 3:32.
17 (The following proceedings were held off
18 video:)
19 THE REPORTER: Can you put on the record with
20 regard to Exhibits 5, 7, 11, and 12?
21 MR. QUINN: We're retaining those exhibits.
22 (Proceedings concluded.)
23
24
25

JA2566
Page 147
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
4 )SS.:
5 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
6
7 I, CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, a Certified
8 Shorthand Reporter within and for the State
9 of California, do hereby certify:
10 That Stan Lee, the witness
11 whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth,
12 was duly sworn by me and that such
13 deposition is a true record of the
14 testimony given by such witness.
15 I further certify that I am not
16 related to any of the parties to this
17 action by blood or marriage; and that I am
18 in no way interested in the outcome of this
19 matter.
20 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
21 set my hand this 25th day of May, 2010.
22
23
24 ________________________________
25 CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, CSR #7954

JA2567
Page 148
1 ERRATA SHEET FOR THE TRANSCRIPT OF:
2
3 CASE NAME: Marvel v. Kirby
4 DEP. DATE: May 13, 2010
5 DEPONENT: Stan Lee
6
7 Pg. Ln. Now Reads Should Read Reason
8 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
9 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
10 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
11 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
12 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
13 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
14 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
15 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
16 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
17 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
18 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
19 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
20 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
21 __ ___ _____________ ____________ ______
22
23
24 _____________________
25 Signature of Deponent

JA2568
Page 149
1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
2 ) SS
3 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 I, the undersigned, declare under penalty of
14 perjury that I have read the foregoing transcript, and I
15 have made any corrections, additions or deletions that I
16 was desirous of making; that the foregoing is a true and
17 correct transcript of my testimony contained therein.
18 Executed this ______ day of _________, 20__, at
19 _________, _____________.
20 (City) (State)
21
22
23
24 _________________________
25 STAN LEE

JA2569
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Special Appendix/ Joint
Appendix were served electronically by the Court’s ECF system and by priority
mail on those parties not registered for ECF pursuant to the rules of this court.
Pursuant to Local Rules 25.3 and 30.1, six paper copies of the Joint Appendix and
Special Appendix have been mailed to the Court on the date this brief was
electronically filed.
Dated: January 13, 2011 /s/ Marc Toberoff

Malibu, California Marc Toberoff (MT 4862)

Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
mtoberoff@ipwla.com

Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby, Neal L.
Kirby and Susan M. Kirby

Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 10 - Stan Lee Deposition

Diunggah oleh

Informasi Dokumen

Judul Asli

Hak Cipta

Format Tersedia

Bagikan dokumen Ini

Bagikan atau Tanam Dokumen

Opsi Berbagi

Apakah menurut Anda dokumen ini bermanfaat?

Apakah konten ini tidak pantas?

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 10 - Stan Lee Deposition

Diunggah oleh

Hak Cipta:

Format Tersedia

Case 11-3333, Document 81, 01/26/2012, 509521, Page1 of 170

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME X OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME X OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

JA Docket Date Description Pages

CA Docket Date Description Pages

CA Docket Date Description Pages

CA Docket Date Description Pages

SA Docket Date Description Pages

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting 877-702-9580