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2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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GOOSING NUMBERS —

Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels,


German magazine says
One function reportedly "switched off emissions cleaning after 26 km of driving."
MEGAN GEUSS - 2/18/2018, 5:30 PM
getty images

Enlarge / (Photo by TF-Images/TF-Images via Getty Images)

US investigators are looking into whether Mercedes parent company Daimler used illegal software to cheat emissions tests on diesel vehicles in the
US, according to German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, whose report was picked up by Reuters. Though the investigation itself is not new—it was
reported as early as April 2016 that the Department of Justice was looking into Daimler's actions around emissions testing its diesel vehicles—the new
reports of emissions-cheating software draw parallels to Volkswagen's notorious emissions scandal.

The German paper allegedly saw documents indicating that one software function on Daimler diesel
FURTHER READING
vehicles turned off the car's emissions control system after driving just 26 km (16 miles). Another Daimler to offer software update for
program apparently "allowed the emissions cleaning system to recognize whether the car was being 3 million Mercedes-Benz diesels in
tested based on speed or acceleration patterns," according to Reuters. EU

Software that turns an emissions control system on and off depending on whether the car is being
tested in a lab or not is called a "defeat device," and unless the automaker gets explicit permission to have one, a defeat device's inclusion in an auto
system is illegal in the US. In 2015, Volkswagen Group was discovered to have hidden defeat device software on its VW, Audi, and Porsche diesels. The
automaker has since spent billions of dollars in buying back vehicles that were emitting up to 40 times the allowable amount of nitrogen oxide (NOx).

Ars asked Daimler for comment, and we'll update this article if we receive a response. To Reuters, the company declined to comment beyond stating
that it was cooperating with US authorities. "The authorities know the documents and no complaint has been filed,” a spokesman told Reuters. “The
documents available to Bild have obviously selectively been released in order to harm Daimler and its 290,000 employees.”

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 1/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica
Among the documents, Bild am Sonntag reported, were emails from Daimler engineers "questioning whether these software functions were legal."
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If Daimler were to be found guilty of installing defeat devices on its vehicles, financial repercussions for the company would likely be smaller than what
VW Group experienced, as Daimler has sold fewer diesel vehicles in the US than VW Group.

MEGAN GEUSS
Megan is a staff editor at Ars Technica. She writes breaking news and has a background in fact-checking and research.

EMAIL megan.geuss@arstechnica.com // TWITTER @MeganGeuss

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Carewolf / Ars Praefectus / et Subscriptor POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:36 PM

I thought that part was already known, the main difference was the magnitude of the cheating compared to VW.

+50 (+51 / -1) 5064 posts | registered 4/24/2007

Skeaptical / Smack-Fu Master, in training NEW POSTER POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:38 PM

This is a good reminder of how long these investigations often take.

+42 (+42 / 0) 8 posts | registered 12/3/2016

Fred Duck / Ars Praetorian POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:41 PM

Quote:
Among the documents, Bild am Sonntag reported, were emails from Daimler engineers "questioning whether these software functions were
legal."

Who would ever believe having something run differently when it detects a test in progress could be considered legal?

edit: Too many evers in there. I changed one to "could" and got a bowl of cereal.

Last edited by Fred Duck on Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:50 pm

+67 (+68 / -1) 462 posts | registered 6/29/2012

Belzebuth / Ars Scholae Palatinae / et Subscriptor POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:45 PM

It’s unfortunate that rogue engineers have corrupted Daimler as well. Let’s hope management can root out and punish these bad apples.

Do I really need to put “/s” at the end?

Last edited by Belzebuth on Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:47 pm

+166 (+177 / -11) 1115 posts | registered 5/28/1999

RobDickinson / Ars Praefectus FEB 18, 2018 5:46 PM

Fred Duck wrote:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 2/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica
Quote:
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Among the documents, Bild am Sonntag reported, were emails from Daimler engineers "questioning whether these software functions
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were legal."

Who would ever believe having something run differently when it detects a test in progress ever be considered legal?

The European laws are quite open to interpretation and you only have to get certified in one Eu country and the rest just go along. Its open
knowledge there that whilst the letter of the law is tight, the actuality is circumvented entirely (legally).

+23 (+27 / -4) 5883 posts | registered 8/16/2000

dwrd / Wise, Aged Ars Veteran POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:48 PM

Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just making
pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

+35 (+41 / -6) 196 posts | registered 9/9/2017

BugblatterII / Wise, Aged Ars Veteran / et Subscriptor POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:49 PM

Fred Duck wrote:


Quote:
Among the documents, Bild am Sonntag reported, were emails from Daimler engineers "questioning whether these software functions
were legal."

Who would ever believe having something run differently when it detects a test in progress ever be considered legal?

Graphics card manufacturers? As least that cheating doesn't cause health problems though, just lower frame rates (although in VR that might
make you sick).

+36 (+37 / -1) 160 posts | registered 11/20/2012

Azethoth666 / Ars Praefectus POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 5:52 PM

Belzebuth wrote:
It’s unfortunate that rogue engineers have corrupted Daimler as well. Let’s hope management can root out and punish these bad apples.

Do I really need to put “/s” at the end?

Yes you do, otherwise you will forget when it matters.

Maybe some kind of ethics in automotive engineering course can fix this. /s

+31 (+33 / -2) 5309 posts | registered 1/20/2011

kurkosdr / Ars Scholae Palatinae POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:01 PM

dwrd wrote:
Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just making
pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

Not hard, just costly from a fuel economy or DEF consumption standpoint (that is, fuel economy for Lean NOx trap-equipped vehicles, and DEF
consumption for Selective Catalytic Reduction vehicles).

All a CEO has to do is tell the engineers to fiddle with the programming of the ECU to partially disable the NOx reduction mechanism mentioned
above in non-test conditions and... "look at those improved fuel economy/DEF consumption numbers, that 'll show the competition".

The irony of course is that those "improvements" were taken into account when crafting the Euro 6 standards.

Last edited by kurkosdr on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:02 pm

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2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica
+34 (+36 / -2) 679 posts | registered 6/14/2009
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Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y / Wise, Aged Ars Veteran FEB 18, 2018 6:01 PM

dwrd wrote:
Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just making
pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

Pickup trucks are not above the law. They are different vehicles from diesel cars and subject to different standards.

+13 (+24 / -11) 360 posts | registered 12/30/2017

Matthew J. / Ars Scholae Palatinae / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:04 PM

Here we go again...

-15 (+2 / -17) 856 posts | registered 6/8/2006

dio82 / Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:05 PM

RobDickinson wrote:
Fred Duck wrote:
Quote:
Among the documents, Bild am Sonntag reported, were emails from Daimler engineers "questioning whether these software functions
were legal."

Who would ever believe having something run differently when it detects a test in progress ever be considered legal?

The European laws are quite open to interpretation and you only have to get certified in one Eu country and the rest just go along. Its open
knowledge there that whilst the letter of the law is tight, the actuality is circumvented entirely (legally).

It is actually even worse ... you just have to find one country open to looking the other way, and there is NOTHING that can be done. Apparently
German authorities have proven that the emission values of many vehicles licensed in Netherlands and Italy are flat-out wrong and illegal, and
besides of some stern letters, there is nothing that can be done.

+28 (+28 / 0) 6174 posts | registered 1/18/2001

Fatesrider / Ars Tribunus Militum / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:08 PM

Belzebuth wrote:
It’s unfortunate that rogue engineers have corrupted Daimler as well. Let’s hope management can root out and punish these bad apples.

Do I really need to put “/s” at the end?

On the bright side, they can move the problem up to middle management in the HR department to be held accountable for so many rogue
engineers getting hired, and pray that the problem doesn't keep showing up to get the next level in the food chain.

Of course, that gives the top level management plenty of warning when to pop the old golden parachute, but you MIGHT catch someone
snoozing on that.

+10 (+11 / -1) 6984 posts | registered 11/16/2012

RobDickinson / Ars Praefectus POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:09 PM

Fewer US holidays for German auto execs in the future..

+40 (+40 / 0) 5883 posts | registered 8/16/2000

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2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

effgee / Ars Tribunus Militum / et Subscriptor SUBSCRIPTIONS


FEB 18, 2018 6:11 PM SIGN IN

Up next: Ford and Opel (back then: GM). Nobody who sold cars with Diesel engines in Central Europe from the 00s on adhered to the emission
standards by means of ingenious engineering. Every last one of them defrauded their customers along with the respective regulatory bodies (*).

Why would anyone anywhere believe that Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Opel all
knew how to properly engineer a Diesel engine and that VW alone, the second largest car maker on the planet, was not able to get that done and
had to cheat?

That they would not have been able to buy one of the many 'properly working' examples and reverse engineer that tech at the very least?

"BRIDGES! I GOT LOTS OF BRIDGES! ALL FOR SALE AT BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICES!!"

(edit: * - and once found guilty, all of their C-level staff ought to spend a couple of years in jail.)

Last edited by effgee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:13 pm

+18 (+29 / -11) 1924 posts | registered 4/8/2006

LuDux / Ars Scholae Palatinae POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:11 PM

Jail.

Them.

Otherwise this will not stop.

A mere financial penalty that can simply be passed on to consumers in the future is just cost of doing business, utterly meaningless as a
deterrent.

+50 (+51 / -1) 1453 posts | registered 7/1/2012

Statistical / Ars Praefectus / et Subscriptor POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:11 PM

dwrd wrote:
Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just making
pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

Nobody is cheating on gasoline engines. Diesel is just filthy. It is difficult and expensive to even meet the bare minimum emission requirements.
Many gasoline engines are complaint today with the emission standards for 2030. Hopefully diesel just dies at least for light duty vehicles. It is all
but dead in the US but Europe seems to be unwilling to accept the reality.

Ideally we move to BEV as quickly as possible but in the interim a high efficiency gasoline engine is the least bad option.

Last edited by Statistical on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:36 pm

+43 (+54 / -11) 18066 posts | registered 9/27/2010

RZetopan / Smack-Fu Master, in training FEB 18, 2018 6:12 PM

So now there are *TWO* rouge engineers? Yikes! What if there are even more? How did the German car company management so completely
miss this conspiracy happening right under their noses?

+22 (+24 / -2) 55 posts | registered 12/26/2015

LuNatic_ / Smack-Fu Master, in training FEB 18, 2018 6:13 PM

Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y wrote:


dwrd wrote:
Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just
making pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

Pickup trucks are not above the law. They are different vehicles from diesel cars and subject to different standards.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 5/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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Interesting. Can you elaborate on how and why?

+6 (+9 / -3) 80 posts | registered 2/18/2010

Marlor_AU / Ars Praefectus / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:20 PM

LuDux wrote:
Jail.

Them.

Otherwise this will not stop.

A mere financial penalty that can simply be passed on to consumers in the future is just cost of doing business, utterly meaningless as a
deterrent.

But jail who? In the end, it will probably be whoever is most easily scapegoated.

After all, we know that these sorts of things only ever happen because "rogue engineers" go and implement them against the wishes of the good-
natured and entirely honest executives in charge of the company.

+18 (+20 / -2) 3940 posts | registered 10/3/2003

mjeffer / Ars Scholae Palatinae POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:21 PM

dwrd wrote:
Are the emissions targets just too hard to make? Seems like everyone and their dog is cheating in order to make the numbers (or just making
pick-up trucks, which are above the law).

It's diesel's where they're cheating. Because apparently if they actually make it as clean as they claim them to be, they run like crap...

+34 (+35 / -1) 866 posts | registered 6/20/2009

RobDickinson / Ars Praefectus POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:24 PM

Europe was sold a lie with diesel and took it hook line and sinker because it was 'cheap'
Even though it poisoned our cities.

USA was dragged along in the wake.

+54 (+55 / -1) 5883 posts | registered 8/16/2000

mjeffer / Ars Scholae Palatinae POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:28 PM

RobDickinson wrote:
Europe was sold a lie with diesel and took it hook line and sinker because it was 'cheap'
Even though it poisoned our cities.

USA was dragged along in the wake.

Diesel still isn't very common in passenger cars in the US. I'm not so sure how much we got drug along, but we certainly were the first to give
them a major smack down.

+26 (+31 / -5) 866 posts | registered 6/20/2009

bbf / Ars Scholae Palatinae POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:35 PM

effgee wrote:
Up next: Ford and Opel (back then: GM). Nobody who sold cars with Diesel engines in Central Europe from the 00s on adhered to the emission
standards by means of ingenious engineering. Every last one of them defrauded their customers along with the respective regulatory bodies
(*).

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 6/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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Why would anyone anywhere believe that Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Opel
SIGN IN
all knew how to properly engineer a Diesel engine and that VW alone, the second largest car maker on the planet, was not able to get that
done and had to cheat?

That they would not have been able to buy one of the many 'properly working' examples and reverse engineer that tech at the very least?

"BRIDGES! I GOT LOTS OF BRIDGES! ALL FOR SALE AT BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICES!!"

(edit: * - and once found guilty, all of their C-level staff ought to spend a couple of years in jail.)

Well, everybody that sold diesel cars in the US EXCEPT for VW had to add urea injection to get their cars to pass California emissions.

Hmm... so that means that EVERYBODY else added customer unfriendly Urea injection (because one has to replenish the Urea every couple of
months) because they all cheated as badly as VW. Oh wait...

That's not to say that all manufacturers don't game the regulations to the "legal" limits and don't follow the "spirit" of the regulations... and
honestly they've probably all "cheated" at one time or another to some extent. But the magnitude of the cheating for the VW dieselgate vehicles
was extraordinarily brazen.

Just like most crimes, the magnitude matters. Shoplifting a chocolate bar should be penalized less than stealing billions in the 2008 financial
crisis... oops bad example, but you should get what I meant.

Last edited by bbf on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:42 pm

+67 (+67 / 0) 1054 posts | registered 1/31/2011

tcowher / Ars Scholae Palatinae FEB 18, 2018 6:35 PM

LuNatic_ wrote:
show nested quotes

Interesting. Can you elaborate on how and why?

I think the previous poster still has some old beliefs. Depending on if he's talking about Commercial Trucks like long haul semis or if he means
Pickup trucks. When most emissions were setup in the US at least Trucks were exempt or had much lighter regulation. This was due to them
being seen as work vehicles as at the time there was no such thing as an SUV which initially were sold compliant with truck emissions and fleet
fuel efficiencies. I believe that more modern regulations no longer give those same exemptions to trucks or more tightly define what a truck is to
avoid the skirting of the law that SUVs enjoyed.

Now if he is referring to actual commercial vehicles like Buses and Semi trucks. These have a very different regulations than personal vehicles.
Diesel is still much better than gas at these scales at least when I last worked at the local bus company. School buses, same year, same
manufacture, that used diesel instead of gas got a good 30% better mileage.

This isn't even counting off road gas or diesel construction and farm equipment that may not have any emission controls.

tc

+15 (+16 / -1) 1356 posts | registered 12/7/1999

effgee / Ars Tribunus Militum / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:43 PM

mjeffer wrote:
RobDickinson wrote:
Europe was sold a lie with diesel and took it hook line and sinker because it was 'cheap'
Even though it poisoned our cities.

USA was dragged along in the wake.

Diesel still isn't very common in passenger cars in the US. I'm not so sure how much we got drug along, but we certainly were the first to give
them a major smack down.

See, if you'd done some reading, or at least googling, before commenting, you'd have known that there already is a class action suit pending
against GM (Opel & Vauxhall), along with the tidbit that Chevrolet sold highly suspicious Cruze Diesel models that have yet to be investigated. If I
weren't so lazy I'd look for an English article, alas here's a German one.

The world. Not quite as black and white as some would have you believe.™

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 7/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica
Last edited by effgee on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:44 pm
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+6 (+9 / -3) 1924 posts | registered 4/8/2006

Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y / Wise, Aged Ars Veteran FEB 18, 2018 6:43 PM

tcowher wrote:
show nested quotes

I think the previous poster still has some old beliefs. Depending on if he's talking about Commercial Trucks like long haul semis or if he means
Pickup trucks. When most emissions were setup in the US at least Trucks were exempt or had much lighter regulation. This was due to them
being seen as work vehicles as at the time there was no such thing as an SUV which initially were sold compliant with truck emissions and fleet
fuel efficiencies. I believe that more modern regulations no longer give those same exemptions to trucks or more tightly define what a truck is
to avoid the skirting of the law that SUVs enjoyed.

Now if he is referring to actual commercial vehicles like Buses and Semi trucks. These have a very different regulations than personal vehicles.
Diesel is still much better than gas at these scales at least when I last worked at the local bus company. School buses, same year, same
manufacture, that used diesel instead of gas got a good 30% better mileage.

This isn't even counting off road gas or diesel construction and farm equipment that may not have any emission controls.

tc

In the US these are the CAFE standards. Don't confuse this with taxes. Pickups have historically (and still do) enjoy looser fuel efficiency and
emission mandates than passenger cars.

This explains the current CAFE standards in a nutshell:

https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/2016 ... -the-ugly/

Last edited by Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:46 pm

+24 (+26 / -2) 360 posts | registered 12/30/2017

Chris FOM / Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius FEB 18, 2018 6:43 PM

Regardless of the specifics here the prevalence of issues that keep coming up across manufacturers clearly indicates that clean diesel is a myth.

+15 (+17 / -2) 8264 posts | registered 1/26/2005

LuDux / Ars Scholae Palatinae FEB 18, 2018 6:46 PM

Marlor_AU wrote:
LuDux wrote:
Jail.

Them.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 8/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

Otherwise this will not stop.


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A mere financial penalty that can simply be passed on to consumers in the future is just cost of doing business, utterly meaningless as a
deterrent.

But jail who? In the end, it will probably be whoever is most easily scapegoated.

After all, we know that these sorts of things only ever happen because "rogue engineers" go and implement them against the wishes of the
good-natured and entirely honest executives in charge of the company.

The CEO and board of directors. Doesn't matter if they 'didn't know', the /responsibility/ is ultimately theirs.

+20 (+22 / -2) 1453 posts | registered 7/1/2012

MMarsh / Ars Praetorian POPULAR FEB 18, 2018 6:48 PM

Statistical wrote:
show nested quotes

Nobody is cheating on gasoline engines. Diesel is just filthy. It is difficult and expensive to even meet the bare minimum emission
requirements. Many gasoline engines are complaint today with the emission standards for 2030. Hopefully diesel just dies at least for light
duty vehicles. It is all but dead in the US but Europe seems to be unwilling to accept the reality.

Ideally we move to BEV as quickly as possible but in the interim a high efficiency gasoline engine is the least bad option.

Diesel doesn't necessarily have to be filthy. It's just *really* damned hard to make a diesel engine clean, particularly if you care about weight and
cost.

The carmakers who used to be big on diesel for efficiency reasons are now discovering that it's cheaper and easier to hit your fuel efficiency
targets by throwing Moar Technology (tm) and a hybrid system at a gasoline engine, rather than missing two out of three of (cost, emissions,
performance) targets by trying to optimize the hell out of a diesel.

The carmakers (err, truckmakers) who are currently big on diesel for torque & towing reasons are now seriously looking at using electric drive,
either with plenty of batteries or with range-extending gas engines (or heavily optimized small diesels), once their current offerings are no longer
viable. It's hard for them to say it out loud while "rolling coal" is a thing among their customers, but it's in the pipeline.

Last edited by MMarsh on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:50 pm

+27 (+27 / 0) 779 posts | registered 6/7/2015

Statistical / Ars Praefectus / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:49 PM

Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y wrote:


show nested quotes

In the US these are the CAFE standards. Don't confuse this with taxes. Pickups have historically (and still do) enjoy looser fuel efficiency and
emission mandates than passenger cars.

This explains the current CAFE standards in a nutshell:

https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/2016 ... -the-ugly/

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 9/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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Fuel economy standards not emissions standards. Only true heavy duty vehicles are classified separately under emission standards. A prius and
an F150 have to meet the same light duty vehicle emission standards.

+8 (+11 / -3) 18066 posts | registered 9/27/2010

Abhi Beckert / Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius FEB 18, 2018 6:50 PM

Marlor_AU wrote:
LuDux wrote:
Jail.

Them.

Otherwise this will not stop.

A mere financial penalty that can simply be passed on to consumers in the future is just cost of doing business, utterly meaningless as a
deterrent.

But jail who? In the end, it will probably be whoever is most easily scapegoated.

After all, we know that these sorts of things only ever happen because "rogue engineers" go and implement them against the wishes of the
good-natured and entirely honest executives in charge of the company.

In a large corporation these things often do happen against the wishes of top level executives.

Lower level management usually own stock and get bonuses based on company performance, and they're quite capable of doing something
illegal without telling anyone above them.

+6 (+11 / -5) 6067 posts | registered 9/27/2005

Statistical / Ars Praefectus / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:51 PM

MMarsh wrote:
show nested quotes

Diesel doesn't necessarily have to be filthy. It's just *really* damned hard to make a diesel engine clean, particularly if you care about weight
and cost.

The carmakers who used to be big on diesel for efficiency reasons are now discovering that it's cheaper and easier to hit your fuel efficiency
targets by throwing Moar Technology (tm) and a hybrid system at a gasoline engine, rather than missing two out of three of (cost, emissions,
performance) targets by trying to optimize the hell out of a diesel.

The carmakers (err, truckmakers) who are currently big on diesel for torque & towing reasons are now seriously looking at using electric drive,
either with plenty of batteries or with range-extending gas engines (or heavily optimized small diesels), once their current offerings are no
longer viable. It's hard for them to say it out loud while "rolling coal" is a thing among their customers, but it's in the pipeline.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 10/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica
I wish that were true. Forget large trucks for towing most European auto manufacturers have a full lineup of diesels down to the smallest of cars.
The diesel bullshit has pushed back emission standards and the promotion of PHEV and BEV by at least a decade.
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+14 (+15 / -1) 18066 posts | registered 9/27/2010

Th3 Duk3 0f Sav0y / Wise, Aged Ars Veteran FEB 18, 2018 6:56 PM

Statistical wrote:
show nested quotes

Fuel economy standards not emissions standards. Only true heavy duty vehicles are classified separately under emission standards. A prius
and an F150 have to meet the same light duty vehicle emission standards.

Those graphs from the article deal with emissions (gms CO2 per mile) which the article explains are derived directly from the wheelbase
measurements from CAFE.

+7 (+7 / 0) 360 posts | registered 12/30/2017

Fatesrider / Ars Tribunus Militum / et Subscriptor FEB 18, 2018 6:58 PM

LuNatic_ wrote:
show nested quotes

Interesting. Can you elaborate on how and why?

It's not true according to what I looked up.

Based on my read, vehicle emissions and economy standards are based on vehicle WEIGHT, not class, with the fuel type determining which
standards apply to it.

Diesels have different standards for economy and emissions, but if you have a diesel truck and a diesel passenger car in the same general weight
category (I believe it's under 10,000 lbs GVW), then they both must meet the same emissions and economy standards.

Both are considered "light duty" kinds of vehicles, regardless of the kind of engine they have.

Medium and heavy duty trucks and other such vehicles or engine uses adhere to different weight/type category standards as well.

So it's the engine type and vehicle weight that count - not body style.

[edit to add: cars and pickups have different standards for SAFETY - but not emissions. ]

Last edited by Fatesrider on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:00 pm

+7 (+8 / -1) 6984 posts | registered 11/16/2012

Veritas super omens / Ars Tribunus Militum FEB 18, 2018 6:58 PM

RZetopan wrote:
So now there are *TWO* rouge engineers? Yikes! What if there are even more? How did the German car company management so completely
miss this conspiracy happening right under their noses?

Clearly we cannot allow these "red" engineers to continue their miscreant ways. Otherwise we could have a veritable rogues gallery of sociopathic
tech types showing up at he "Red Sheep" (Moulin Rouge).

+11 (+12 / -1) 7112 posts | registered 9/10/2012

RobDickinson / Ars Praefectus FEB 18, 2018 6:59 PM

Abhi Beckert wrote:


show nested quotes

In a large corporation these things often do happen against the wishes of top level executives.

Lower level management usually own stock and get bonuses based on company performance, and they're quite capable of doing something
illegal without telling anyone above them.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/02/daimler-included-emissions-cheating-software-on-diesels-german-magazine-says/?comments=1 11/14
2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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IMO for large corporations it always stems from executive level. If your company is responsible for deaths etc you should be held to account.

Its part of the job to comply with legislation and to build structure and organization that supports that, and not put drive for profit ahead of
complying.

+19 (+19 / 0) 5883 posts | registered 8/16/2000

Abhi Beckert / Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius FEB 18, 2018 7:00 PM

Statistical wrote:
show nested quotes

I wish that were true. Forget large trucks for towing most European auto manufacturers have a full lineup of diesels down to the smallest of
cars. The diesel bullshit has pushed back emission standards and the promotion of PHEV and BEV by at least a decade.

Diesel engines are being promoted by European governments because they produce significantly less CO2 emissions compared to a other fuels.
Diesel is better for global warming.

The problem is diesel produces more NOx than a petrol engine which, while not particularly harmful to the environment is bad for humans
especially when a multi-lane road is full of cars all day long and there's not much wind (as in a major city with tall buildings preventing wind
dispersal).

The situation is nuanced.

+22 (+25 / -3) 6067 posts | registered 9/27/2005

Abhi Beckert / Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius FEB 18, 2018 7:05 PM

RobDickinson wrote:
show nested quotes

IMO for large corporations it always stems from executive level. If your company is responsible for deaths etc you should be held to account.

Its part of the job to comply with legislation and to build structure and organization that supports that, and not put drive for profit ahead of
complying.

How can that possibly work?

Employees often hate their boss. If they could simply commit a crime and their boss would be sent to jail they'd do it all the time... possibly even
use it as blackmail to negotiate a higher salary/promotion/etc.

VW has millions of employees - some of them are surely criminals.

If an employee commits a crime that employee is responsible. That's the only way it can possibly work.

Last edited by Abhi Beckert on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:05 pm

-17 (+7 / -24) 6067 posts | registered 9/27/2005

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2/19/2018 Daimler included emissions-cheating software on diesels, German magazine says | Ars Technica

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