SURANJAN GANGULY ALLEN GINSBERG ON BAUL POETRY: AN INTERVIEW AND SIX POEMS In 1962 Allen Ginsberg paid his first visit to India and encountered the “god-intoxicated” Bauls, a mystical sect of itinerant singers and dancers who live in rural Bengal. It was largely through his efforts that their music and poetry, especially that of Purna Das, became known in the West and is now widely available on cassettes and CDs. The word “baul” is apparently derived from the Sanskrit “byakul” (anxious) or “vatul” (frenzied) and describes the longing for union with God which is characteristic of almost all Baul poetry. Not much is known of the early history of the sect since the Bauls, being illiterate, transmitted their work orally, but it is generally believed that the sect emerged in Bengal in the seventeenth century. ‘A Baul usually plays the “gopijantra” or “aektara,” a one-stringed drone instrument and the “duggi,” a kettle drum. Other musical instruments include the “anandalahari” or the “gubgubi,” a plucking drum, and the “dotara,” a four-stringed long-necked lute. Traditionally, Bauls live in groups which include Hindus and Muslims. Each group has its own center or “akhra” presided over by a guru or teacher. In fact, their songs frequently celebrate the notions of a shared community, of the open spaces, of a common search, and of being equal before God’s eyes. The mysticism of the Bauls is an amalgam of tantric, Buddhist and Vedic elements, as well as aspects of Sufi mysticism and the Vaishnava cult of the sixteenth century, both of which conceive of God in terms of love. Since God is formless and resides within each individual, the Bauls call Him the “adhara manush” —the elusive man of the heart — who is to be caught through “bhav” or intense feeling. To prepare for the ecstasy of union, material possessions are 350SURANJAN GANGULY/ALLEN GINSBERG 351 shunned along with the ego, and the body is spiritualized through “sadhana” or tantric yogic practices. The moment of rapture is described as “jyanto-mora” or death in life. Perhaps the best-known Baul is Lalon Shah, sometimes called the “King of Bauls,” who is said to have lived for over a hundred years (1775-1891) and wrote more than a thousand songs. Lalon was born into a Hindu family, but adopted the Muslim title of “Shah” having lived with a Muslim Baul family who saved his life when he was dying of smallpox. In this interview Ginsberg talks about his visit to Birbhum, a traditional Baul center, with the Bengali poets Sakti Chatterji and Sunil Ganguly, and of his meeting with the legendary Baul, Nabani Das, and his son, the young Purna Das. He also talks of Baul poetry in general and its influence on his work, and reads a recent cycle of six poems inspired by an English translation of Lalon’s work. The poems appear here for the first time. The interview took place in July, 1993, at Boulder, Colorado, where Ginsberg spends part of each summer teaching at the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at the Naropa Institute founded by his teacher, the Tibetan lama, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche: cancuLy: When did you first encounter the Bauls? GINSBERG: There were wandering Bauls on the streets of Calcutta, around my hotel and in Howrah station. In my Indian Journals there is a photograph of an extraordinarily powerful-looking Baul singer with a little beard, a funny hat and patchwork clothing standing on a street corner. . . . So I heard quite a bit of their music, and also some in Nimtallah Ghat and when we visited Nabani Das and his sons in Birbhum. GANGULY: How did that visit go? GINSBERG: He was then the most respected Baul singer, an old man, quite ill, who was lying on a charpoy, and he sang to us. Sakti translated, and I wrote down the words, and the crude instantane- ous translation was really very effective, much more than the pol- ished literary version because we got the essence right there. We were high on grass I do believe. . . . It was very impressive. Two or three of those poems are in the Indian Journals. Also, it was a useful visit because Birbhum is a very strong religious center, the origin of a lot of Tibetan and Indian Vajrayana tantra. So I had some glimpse of that ancient base . . . and it was a total revelation, to get that deep into Bengali culture.352 MICHIGAN QUARTERLY REVIEW GANGULY: Didn't Bob Dylan have something to do with the Bauls’ first U.S. visit? GINSBERG: When I came back from India, Albert Grossman, who was Bob Dylan’s manager, told me that he and his wife Sally were going to Calcutta, and I suggested Sunil Ganguly for a guide, and he took them to Birbhum where they met Purna Das, got interested, and brought him and some other Bauls to America. And they stayed in the same house where Bob Dylan was living, and Purna Das is on the cover of Bob's album called John Wesley Harding or something. That was something— how quickly he became part of the most noto- rious and interesting aspect of popular American culture. Front cover photograph on one of the classic Bob Dylan albums of the mid-60s! The idea was to set them up as a stage presentation in America, and they did tour. When they come back, I generally see them and sometimes participate with them, introducing them or singing a song, or reading a poem. caNcuty: When did you think of experimenting with Baul forms? GINSBERG: One of the books I bought in India was Shashibhusan Dasgupta’s Obscure Religious Cults, which contains a very funny Baul song: The elephant is caught in the spider’s web The ant bursts out laughing. Well, if you think of the elephant as the body, and the spider web as the mind, then the laughing ant is the observer, consciousness. I also bought Bankey Behari’s Sufis, Mystics and Yogis of India which was my introduction to saint poets like Kabir and Gyaneswar and to much of Muktabai. One of the poems there that really knocked me out was by Changdeva, a disciple of Muktabai, who according to the book lived for 700 years: Gyaneswar drank to his fill the water of pearls; Nvrittinath caught in his hands the freshness of the clouds; Sopana decorated himself with the garland of fragrance, Muktabai fed herself on cooked diamonds; the Secret of all four has come to my hands—Says Changdeva. I like the sound of “Changdeva” — it sounds so serious! I don’t know who he is even, But that “cooked diamonds” blew my mind. It was a bit like Gregory Corso’s “fried shoes,” or “penguin dust” or “hydro- gen jukebox.” So years later in 1978 we made a film here at Naropa to connect the mystic tradition and the beatnik tradition and calledSURANJAN GANGULY/ALLEN GINSBERG — 353 the film Fried Shoes, Karma Cooked Diamonds. Then in 1990 or 1991 Sunil Ganguly sent me a translation of Lalon, a book called Lalon Shah and I sat down one night to read it, and read it through and it stuck in my head and I kept waking up that night and writing imitations of that style. Imitations of the translations. I have done that in Chinese with Bai Juyi—a whole series of poems called “After Juyi.” I'm sure the formal style of Lalon is very different from Juy much more regular, but the English translations are sort of interna- tional open form free verse. . . . What interested me is something common to all sophisticated primitive religions—the trickster figure — Coyote or Bear for some American Indians, Fox in Japan, Mercury and Hermes, Woody Woodpecker and Donald Duck in Walt Disney. The indestructible troublemaker. In India all the gods are in a sense tricksters. And I found the trickster in Lalon’s poetry as well. GANGULY: What else did you find so compelling? GINSBERG: Well, the idea of the poet dealing with his relationship to God, going beyond the formal imagery to annihilate the notion of self or the notion of God as just different, and all the different ways he could make puns and cover a range from complete atheistic igno- rance and lust all the way over to the other side, to the most com- plete refinement. There’s also a little ambiguity as to whether the ultimate refinement is a vulgar laugh of the enlightened person or the aesthetic silence of the muni, the holy man, but in that there’s a whole range. And it’s all very human. . . . The poems deal with the mystical life as if it were everyday frustration and confusion and chaos. So it turned me on and I remember I couldn't sleep. I'd get an idea, get up, turn on the light and write it down. I was writing them one after another maybe at twenty minute or half hour intervals. All this happened during the night of March 31, 1992. Six short poems in that style and in the tradition of the poet naming himself at the end. GANGULY: Kabir also names himself at the end of a poem. Did you first come across that convention in his work ? cinsBerG: What I've liked in Kabir all along . . . [reads from the Bankey Behari book]: Love grows not in the garden, nor is it sold in the market-place. Whosoever likes to purchase, be he a king or subject, can offer his head and have it in return.354 MICHIGAN QUARTERLY REVIEW Or If ye heard in exchange for the head love being sold in the market, Lose no time in negotiating the bargain; instantly sever thy head and go in for love. In most cases they end with “So says Kabir.” . . . He hath departed at the dawn. That person alone is awake In whose heart the arrow of the word hath pierced So says Kabir. Tlike that notion of the poet almost turning himself into an object, so that the extreme subjectivity of “So says Kabir” fades like a dissolve into objectivity. The most extreme examination of subjectivity becomes an object, and treating oneself as an object is true because one doesn’t know oneself anyway. “So says Ginsberg” doesn’t neces- sarily suggest egotism but is an acknowledgment of the egotism turn- ing egotism into another piece of furniture. It’s a friendly comment on one’s relationship to his ego. . . . Right now American audiences have no idea who Lalon is, but I think someday he will be pretty well-known. This sort of thing slowly penetrates consciousness (reads the poems): After Lalon I It’s true I got caught in the world When I was young Blake tipped me off Other teachers followed: Better prepare for Death Don't get entangled with possessions That was when I was young, I was warned Now I'm a Senior Citizen and stuck with a million booksSURANJAN GANGULY/ALLEN GINSBERG — 355 A million thoughts a million dollars a million loves How'll I ever leave my body? Allen Ginsberg says, I'm really up shits creek That's vernacular — totally vernacular. II I sat at the foot of a Lover and he told me everything Fuck off, 23 skidoo, watch your ass, watch your step exercise, meditate, think of your temper— Now I'm an old man and I won't live another 20 years maybe not another 20 weeks, maybe the next second I'll be carried off to rebirth the worm farm, maybe it’s already happened — How should I know, says Allen Ginsberg Maybe I’ve been dreaming all along— OK, so that sounds mystical but, on the other hand, it’s a common thought that everybody has at one time or another in their youth. Even non-spiritual people question their own world. It’s actually the ordinary mind, and by giving attention to it, it becomes extraordi- nary. I think it is probably to some extent tantric alchemy, that we alchemize the ordinary into the extraordinary by paying attention to it or by noticing it.356 MICHIGAN QUARTERLY REVIEW Il It’s 2 AM and I got to get up early and taxi 20 miles to satisfy my ambition — How'd I get into this fix, this workaholic show biz meditation market? If I had a soul I sold it for pretty words If I had a body I used it up spurting my essence If I had a mind it got covered with Love— If I had a spirit I forgot when I was breathing If I had speech it was all a boast If I had desire it went out my anus If I had ambitions to be liberated how'd I get into this wrinkled person? With pretty words, Love essences, breathing boasts, anal longings, famous crimes? What a mess I am, Allen Ginsberg. Iv Sleepless I stay up & think about my Death —certainly it’s nearer than when I was ten years old and wonderd how big the universe was— If I dont get some rest I'll die faster If I sleep I'll lose mySURANJAN GANGULY/ALLEN GINSBERG 357 chance for salvation — asleep or awake, Allen Ginsberg’s in bed in the middle of the night. That one thing was certain! Then I had a dream. .. . Vv 4AM Then they came for me, T hid in the toilet stall They broke down the toilet door It fell in on an innocent boy Ach the wooden door fell in on an innocent kid! I stood on the bow! & listened, Thid my shadow, they shackled the other and dragged him away in my place—How long can I get away with this? Pretty soon they'll discover I’m not there They'll come for me again, where can I hide my body? ‘Am I myself or some one else or nobody at all? Then what's this heavy flesh this weak heart leaky kidney? Who’s been doing time for 65 years in this corpse? Who else went into ecstasy beside me? Now it's all over soon, what good was all that come? Will it come true? Will it really come true?358 MICHIGAN QUARTERLY REVIEW VI Thad my chance and lost it, many chances & didn’t take them seriously enuf. Oh yes I was impressed, almost went mad with fear Td lose the immortal chance, One lost it. Allen Ginsberg warns you dont follow my path to extinction. So it looks like a very strange ending, but it’s actually quite seri- ous, “Dont follow my path to extinction.” At the same time, just try not to, You know everyone's going to be extinct anyway, so every- body will follow my path to extinction. So what is it? The ordinary mind with its absent-mindedness, lack of attention, confusion, loss is transformed alchemically into sacred mind simply by realizing that that’s the nature of the mind and the mind ultimately isn’t so empty anyway. So you get all sorts of things— puns, metaphysical puns, mental ideational puns like “Am I myself or someone else?” Well, I ain’t myself, I ain’t someone else, I ain’t nobody at all! Baul psychol- ogy can make you see that. GANGULY: There are poems like these all through your work. . . crnsperG: Yeah. Like “At 66 Just Learning How to Take Care of My Body.” It ends, you know, with waking up in the morning, washing myself, and finally: Sit silent by the sink a moment Happy not yet to be a corpse. ‘That's somewhat similar. When Trungpa Rinpoche was here teach- ing Buddhist aesthetics, he asked me to make up a poem and it was: Young I drank beer & vomited green bile Older drank wine vomited blood red Then I had to finish it and I couldn’t think of anything. And sud- denly I said: Now I vomit air Meaning poetry. There are a number of poems based more on Bud- dhist Vajrayana paradox.SURANJAN GANGULY/ALLEN GINSBERG 359) Here’s one [reads from White Shroud]: Homage Vajracarya Now that Samurai bow and arrow, Sumi brush, teacup & Emperor's fan are balanced in the hand —What about a glass of water? Holding my cock to pee, the Atlantic gushes out. Sitting to eat, the Sun & the Moon fill my plate. That line, “Holding my cock to pee, the Atlantic gushes out” is straight Baul style. The paradox has a literal base because living on the East coast the waters of the Atlantic are drawn up into the rains and the rains fall and they make corn, and I eat the corn and drink a glass of water and actually I’m peeing out the Atlantic. And the sun and moon have an effect on the crops. . . . So it’s quite literal and at the same time it sounds far apart. There are a number of little poems influenced by that kind of thought [turns over the pages]. There’s a blues that I like quite a bit that depends on the notion of sunyata, emptiness. It has a climactic stanza. “Airplane Blues” [sings]: I'm alone in the sky where there’s nothing to lose The Sun’s not eternal That's why there’s the blues It’s like saying the sun’s not eternal, that’s why there’s samsara. So I'm using “blues” and “samsara” interchangeably. Then . . . I've got a little song on meditation, how to meditate, called, “Do the Medi- tation Rock.” And there are a couple of little funny things that have some relationship to Baul, like “Prophecy” from 1985: ‘As I'm no longer young in life and there seem to me not so many pleasures to look forward to How fortunate to be free to write of cars and wars, truths of eras, throw away old useless ties and pants that don’t fit. So it’s like you have to get to the truths of eras to get down to ties and pants that don’t fit like old clothes. Well, the ideas between Vajray- ana and Baul are not that dissimilar. I imagine they come ultimately from the same roots.