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A Timely Discovery: Examining Our AMD 2nd 236

Gen Ryzen Results Comments

by Ian Cutress & Ryan Smith on April 25, 2018 11:15 AM EST + Add A
Comment
Posted in CPUs AMD Intel Spectre Windows 10 Ryzen Core Meltdown

AN AUDIT AFTER OUR RYZEN 2000-SERIES REVIEW

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Last week, we published our AMD 2nd Gen Ryzen Deep Dive, covering our testing and analysis of the for Windows 10 April 2018 Update
latest generation of processors to come out from AMD. Highlights of the new products included better cache
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latencies, faster memory support, an increase in IPC, an overall performance gain over the first generation Shush Mode, Usage Dashboard, & Other
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In our review, we had a change in some of the testing. The big differences in our testing for this review was with AMD's James Prior
two-fold: the jump from Windows 10 Pro RS2 to Windows 10 Pro RS3, and the inclusion of the Spectre and
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Meltdown patches to mitigate the potential security issues. These patches are still being rolled out by SPEC-05 Mid-Tower Case
motherboard manufacturers, with the latest platforms being first in that queue. For our review, we tested the
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new processors with the latest OS updates and microcode updates, as well as re-testing the Intel Coffee Lake Aggressive Scaling, But Thin Power and
processors as well. Due to time restrictions, the older Ryzen 1000-series results were used. Performance Gains
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Due to the tight deadline of our testing and results, we pushed both our CPU and gaming tests live without as Mesh Wi-Fi System with an Integrated
much formal analysis as we typically like to do. All the parts were competitive, however it quickly became Cable Modem
clear that some of our results were not aligned with those from other media. Initially we were under the AMD 18.4.1 Driver Brings Beta PlayReady
impression that this was as a result of the Spectre and Meltdown (or Smeltdown) updates, as we were one of 3.0 Support for Polaris; Support for Vega
GPUs & APUs Still to Come
the few media outlets to go back and perform retesting under the new standard.
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Nonetheless, we decided to take an extensive internal audit of our testing to ensure that our results were Windows
accurate and completely reproducible. Or, failing that, understanding why our results differed. No stone was Samsung Posts Lowered MSRPs For 970
left un-turned: hardware, software, firmware, tweaks, and code. As a result of that process we believe we PRO And 970 EVO SSDs
have found the reason for our testing being so different from the results of others, and interestingly it opened
a sizable can of worms we were not expecting.

TWEETS
IanCutress: @megatomic70 Is it working yet,
or are there still issues?

IanCutress: RT @AMDRyzen: AMD’s

@cavemanjim is taking your Ryzen
questions right now in the @anandtech AMD
AMA. Post your questions here:
An extract from our Power testing script
https://t.co/…
What our testing identified is that the source of the issue is actually down to timers. Windows uses timers for IanCutress: @megatomic70 I just changed
many things, such as synchronization or ensuring linearity, and there are sets of software relating to something. It might work now if that app has
monitoring and overclocking that require the timer with the most granularity - specifically they often require the updated the rss
High Precision Event Timer (HPET). HPET is very important, especially when it comes to determining if 'one IanCutress: @megatomic70 I'm assuming
second' of PC time is the equivalent to 'one second' of real-world time - the way that Windows 8 and Windows that app reads our RSS feeds. The feeds
10 implements their timing strategy, compared to Windows 7, means that in rare circumstances the system have the right links, we've not done anything
time can be liable to clock shift over time. This is often highly dependent on how the motherboard different
manufacturer implements certain settings. HPET is a motherboard-level timer that, as the name implies, andreif7: @awmar Not sure what your point
offers a very high level of timer precision beyond what other PC timers can provide, and can mitigate this is. https://t.co/DfJsKOAAet
issue. This timer has been shipping in PCs for over a decade, and under normal circumstances it should not
IanCutress: RT @anandtech: The
be anything but a boon to Windows.
AnandTech Podcast, Episode 46: More
Choice on x86 https://t.co/pZKxEUxSB4
However, it sadly appears that reality diverges from theory – sometimes extensively so – and that our CPU
benchmarks for the Ryzen 2000-series review were caught in the middle. Instead of being a benefit to testing, RyanSmithAT: Any suggestions for
what our investigation found is that when HPET is forced as the sole system timer, it can sometimes a replacement keyboards on iOS 11? The
hindrance to system performance, particularly gaming performance. Worse, because HPET is implemented native keyboard's landscape keyboard is
insufferable, and… https://t.co/XHzqFu513T
differently on different platforms, the actual impact of enabling it isn't even consistent across vendors.
Meaning that the effects of using HPET can vary from system to system, as well as the implementation. andreif7: @iamnotcobain Those statistics
are utterly meaningless.
And that brings us to the state HPET, our Ryzen 2000-series review, and CPU benchmarking in general. As
RyanSmithAT: Inexplicably, my iPhone 6s
we'll cover in the next few pages, HPET plays a very necessary and often very beneficial role in system timer
has finally outsmarted me and updated itself
accuracy; a role important enough that it's not desirable to completely disable HPET – and indeed in many
to iOS 11. Arg.
systems this isn't even possible – all the while certain classes of software such as overclocking & monitoring
software may even require it. However for a few different reasons it can also be a drain on system andreif7: Still think the Snapdragon S9 is on
a totally different league in terms of battery.
performance, and as a result HPET shouldn't always be used. So let's dive into the subject of hardware
https://t.co/g601bN0pz1
timers, precision, Smeltdown, and how it all came together to make a perfect storm of volatility for our Ryzen
2000-series review. RyanSmithAT: @BrettHowse Alright, what
happened this time?

A TIMELY RE-DISCOVERY RyanSmithAT: @andreif7 You should say hi

to @DanMatte if you run into him
AN AUDIT AFTER OUR RYZEN 2000-SERIES REVIEW
ganeshts: @Bill_Rollender Interesting - did
Tweet PRINT THIS ARTICLE they present an official TDP? Also, isn't the
Nervana stuff that will go up again…
https://t.co/uMF0heeuIa

236 Comments POST A COMMENT ganeshts: @TMFChipFool Or, they might

View All Comments just go EPYC :)

andreif7: At IO, just shout out if anybody

Dr. Swag - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link wants to meet.
It looks like you guys are re running all the benchmarks in the original review then, right? I see that the results
look to be changed and less CPUs are on the lists (since you haven't rerun them all, I assume) andreif7: Nothing better than to be greeted
with 3 hour immigration queues after 12h
REPLY
trip.

Ryan Smith - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link RyanSmithAT: @IanCutress The trick is to go
Correct. We knew at the start of the Ryzen 2 review what benchmarks and what products we wanted to in the off season. Everyone wants to go in
include; this timer issue hasn't changed that. the summer for vacation or in
November/De… https://t.co/gZYcLMWTxr
REPLY
ganeshts: @DTheSleepless Specs in DM,
freaqiedude - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link please :)
So would it be fair to say that Intel’s HPET implementation is potentially buggy? It seems to cause a
ganeshts: @david_schor EETimes coverage
disproportionate performance hit.
indicated they are going to use RISC-V for
REPLY their upcoming 64-bit CPUs.

chrcoluk - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link ganeshts: @FPiednoel I hope it will happen
within my life time :) A lot of love for self-
no its just that TSC + lapic is the way to go, There is a reason thats the default in windows and other
driving cars is from folks who are…
modern OS's.
https://t.co/a9LjwMSp46
REPLY

KatieHeath - Monday, April 30, 2018 - link

Follow @ANANDTECH
I resigned my office-job and now I am getting paid £64 hourly. How? I work over internet! My old
work was making me miserable, so I was forced to try something different, two years after...I can
say my life is changed-completely for the better!

Check it out what i do... http://4u.fyi/4wO

REPLY

DanNeely - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link

It suggests that their implementation could probably be made less impactful than it currently is; but
that high precision timers have had a performance impact has been known for a long time. In its
guise as the multi-media timer in Windows over a decade ago the official MS docs recommended
using lesser timing sources in lieu of it whenever possible because it would affect your system.

What's new to the general tech site reading public is that there are apparently significant differences
in the size of the impact between different CPU families.
REPLY

Tamz_msc - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link

But is there a 'real' performance impact or does default HPET behavior simply introduce a fudge factor
that alters how the tools report the numbers? Is there a way to verify the results externally?
REPLY

eddman - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link

I'm wondering about the same thing. Do the games' frame rate really change (they get smoother or
vice versa) or the timer just messes up the numbers reported by benchmarks and the games' actual
frame rate that reaches the display doesn't change?
REPLY

rahvin - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link

I'd be more concerned that Intel has found a way to make the timer report false benchmarks that
are higher than they actually are. I'd also be curious if the graphics card/cpu combination is
potentially at fault.

Nvidia has been shown to cheat in the past on benchmarks by turning off features in certain
games that are used for benchmarking to boost the score. Is Intel doing something similar?
REPLY
 Rob_T - Wednesday, April 25, 2018 - link
I came across a similar issue on VMware, where a virtual machine's clock would drift out of
time synchronisation. The cause of this was that VMWare uses a software based clock and
when a host was under heavy CPU load the VM's clock wouldn't get enough CPU resource to
keep it updated accurately. This resulted in time running 'slowly' on the virtual machine.

Under normal circumstances this kind of time driftissue would be handled by the Network Time
Protocol daemon slewing the time back to accuracy; the problem is the maximum slew rate
possible is limited to 500 parts-per-million (PPM). Under peak loads we were observing the
VM's clock running slow by anywhere up to a third. This far outweighed the ability of the NTP
slew mechanism to bring the time back to accuracy.

If this issue has the same root cause, the software based timers would start to run slowly when
the system is under heavy load. Therefore more work could be completed in a 'second' due to
it's increased duration. It would be interesting to know if the highest discrepancy were also the
ones with the largest CPU loads? Looking at the gaming graphs on page 4 the biggest
differences are at 1080p which suggests this might be the case.
REPLY

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