Justice - What's The Right Thing To Do - Episode 01 - THE MORAL SIDE of MURDER

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funding for this program is
provided by
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additional funding provided
by
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this is a course about justice
and we
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begin with a story suppose
you're the
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driver of a trolley car and your
trolley
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car is hurtling down the track at 60
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miles an hour and at the end of the
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track you notice five workers
working on
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the track you try to stop but
you can't
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your brakes don't work you feel
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desperate because you know that
if you
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crash into these five workers they will
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all die let's assume you know
that for
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sure and so you feel helpless
until you
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notice that there is off to the right a
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side track and at the end of that track
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there's one worker working on the track
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your steering wheel works so you can
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turn the trolley car if you want
to onto
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the side track killing the one
but
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sparing the five here's our first
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question what's the right thing to do
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what would you do let's take a
poll
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how many would turn the trolley car onto
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the side track raise your hands
how many
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wouldn't
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how many would go straight ahead keep
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your hands up those
of you who would
go
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straight ahead a
handful of people would
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the vast majority would turn let's hear
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first now we need to begin to
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investigate the reasons why
you think
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it's the right thing to do let's
begin
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with those in the majority who would
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turn to go onto the side track
why would
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you do it what would be your reason
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who's willing to volunteer a reason go
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ahead stand up because it can't be right
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to kill five people when you can
only
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kill one person instead it wouldn't be
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right to kill five if
you could kill one
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person instead
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that's a good reason that's a
good
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reason who else does everybody agree
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with that reason go ahead
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um well asking is the same reason on
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9/11 we regard the people who who flew
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the plane into the Pennsylvania field as
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heroes because they chose to
kill the
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people in the plane and not kill
more
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people in big buildings so the
principle
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there was the same on 9/11 two
tragic
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circumstance but
better to kill one and
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so that five can live is that the reason
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most of you had those of you who would
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turn yes let's hear now from
those in
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the minority those who wouldn't turn yes
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well I think that's the same type of
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mentality that justifies genocide and
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totalitarianism in order to say save one
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type of race you wipe out the other so
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what would you do in this case you would
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to avoid the horrors of genocide you
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would crash into the five and kill them
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presumably yes you yeah okay who
else
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it's a brave answer thank you let's
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consider another trolley car case and
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see whether those of you in the majority
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want to adhere to the principle better
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that one should die so that
five should
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live this time you're not the
driver of
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the trolley car you're an onlooker
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you're standing on a bridge
overlooking
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a trolley car track and down the track
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comes a trolley car at the end of the
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track or five workers the brakes don't
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work the trolley car is about to
careen
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into the five and kill them and now
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you're not the driver you really
feel
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helpless until you notice standing next
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to you leaning over the bridge is a very
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fat man
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and
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you could give him a shove he would fall
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over the bridge under the track right in
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the way of the trolley car he would die
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but he would spare the five now
how many
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would push the fat man over the bridge
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raise your hand how
many wouldn't most
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people wouldn't here's the obvious
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question what became of the principle
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better to save five lives even if it
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means sacrifice one what
became at the
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principle that almost everyone endorsed
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in the first case I need to hear from
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someone who was in the majority in both
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cases how do you explain the difference
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between the two yes the second one I
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guess involves an active choice of
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pushing the person down which I
guess
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that person himself would otherwise not
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have been involved in a situation at all
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and so to choose on his behalf I guess
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to involve him in something that he
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otherwise would have escaped
is I guess
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more than what you have in the first
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case where the three parties that the
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driver and the the two sets of workers
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are already I guess in the situation but
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the guy working the one on the track off
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to the side he didn't choose
to
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sacrifice his life any more
than the fat
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man did did he
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that's true but he was on the tracks and
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you this guy was on the bridge
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go ahead you can come back if you are
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alright it's a hard
question alright
you
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did well you did very
well it's a hard
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question
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who else can find a way of reconciling
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the the reaction of the majority
in
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these two cases yes well I guess
in the
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first case where you have the one worker
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in the five it's its choice between
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those two and you
have to make a certain
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choice and people are
going to die
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because of the trolley car not
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necessarily because of your direct
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actions the trolley car
is a runaway
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thing and you're making it a
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split-second choice whereas
pushing the
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fat man over is an actual act of murder
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on your part you have control over that
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whereas you may not have control over
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the trolley car so I think it's a
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slightly different situation
all right
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who has a reply as that is no
that's
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that's good who has a way who
wants to
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reply is that a way out of this
um I
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don't think that's a very good reason
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because you choose
to its either way
you
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have to choose who dies because
you
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either choose to turn and kill the
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person which is an act of conscious
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thought to turn or you choose to push
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the fat man over which is also an active
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conscious action so either way you're
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making a choice do you want to reply
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well I'm not really sure that that's the
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case it just still
seems kind of
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different the act of actually pushing
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someone over onto the tracks and
killing
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him you are actually killing
him
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yourself
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you're pushing it with your own hands
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you're pushing it and that's different
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than steering something that is going to
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cause death into another you know it
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doesn't really sound right saying it now
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it's good I'm up here but it's
good
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what's your name Andrew Andrew
let me
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ask you this question Andrew yes suppose
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standing on the bridge next to the fat
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man I didn't have to push him suppose he
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were standing over a trap door
that I
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could open by turning a steering
wheel
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like
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would you turn for some reason that
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still just seems more wrong right
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I mean maybe if you accidentally like
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leaned into the steering wheel or
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something but or or say that the car is
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is hurtling towards a switch that will
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drop the trap then I could agree
with
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that fair enough it still seems
wrong in
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a way that it doesn't seem wrong
in the
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first case to turn you say and
in
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another way I mean in the first
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situation you're involved directly with
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the situation in the second one you're
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an onlooker as well alright so you have
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the choice of becoming involved or not
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bypassing the FATA let's let's
forget
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for the moment about this case
that's
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good let's imagine a different
case this
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time you're a doctor in an emergency
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room and six patients come to you
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they've been in a terrible trolley car
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wreck
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five of them sustained moderate injuries
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one is severely injured you could spend
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all day caring for the one severely
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injured victim but in that time
the five
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would die or you could look
after the
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five restore them to health but during
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that time the one severely injured
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person would die how many would save the
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five now is the doctor
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how many would save the one very few
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people just a handful of
people same
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reason I assume one life versus five now
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consider another doctor case this time
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you're a transplant surgeon and you have
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five patients each in desperate need of
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an organ transplant in order to survive
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one needs a heart when a lung
one a
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kidney one a liver and the fifth
a
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pancreas and you have no organ donors
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you are about to see them die and then
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it occurs to you that in the
next room
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there's a healthy guy who came in for a
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checkup
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and he's
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you like that and if he's taking a nap
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you could go in very quietly yank out
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the five organs that person
would die
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but you could save the five
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how many would do it anyone how many put
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your hands up if you would do it anyone
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in the balcony you would
be careful
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don't lean over to me what how
many
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wouldn't all right what do you
say speak
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up in the balcony
you who would yank out
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the organs why I'd actually
like to
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explore a slightly alternate possibility
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of just taking the one of the five who
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needs an organ who dies first
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using therefore healthy organs to save
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the other four that's a pretty good idea
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that's a great idea
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except for the fact that you
just
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wrecked the philosophical point well
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let's let's step back from these stories
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and these arguments to notice a couple
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of things about the way the
arguments
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have begun to unfold certain
moral
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principles have already begun to emerge
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from the discussions we've
had and let's
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consider what those moral principles
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look like the first moral principle that
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emerged in the discussion said the right
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thing to do the moral thing to
do
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depends on the consequences that will
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result from your action at the end of
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the day better that five should
live
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even if one must die that's an example
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of consequentialist moral reasoning
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consequentialist moral reasoning locates
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morality in the consequences of an act
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in the state of the world that
will
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result some the thing you do but then we
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went little further we considered those
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other cases and people weren't so sure
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about consequentialist moral reasoning
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when people hesitated to push the fat
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man over the bridge or to yank out the
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organs of the innocent patient people
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gestured toward reasons having to do
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with the intrinsic quality of the act
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itself consequences be what they may
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people were reluctant people thought it
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was just wrong categorically
wrong to
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kill a person an innocent person
even
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for the sake of saving five
lives at
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least people thought that in the
second
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version of each story we considered
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so this points to a second categorical
268
00:15:09,610 --> 00:15:15,480
way of thinking about moral
reasoning
269
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,320
categorical moral reasoning
locates
270
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,410
morality in certain absolute moral
271
00:15:20,410 --> 00:15:22,810
requirements certain categorical duties
272
00:15:22,810 --> 00:15:24,730
and rights regardless of the
273
00:15:24,730 --> 00:15:26,430
consequences
274
00:15:26,430 --> 00:15:29,770
we're going to explore in the days and
275
00:15:29,770 --> 00:15:31,660
weeks to come the contrast between
276
00:15:31,660 --> 00:15:34,450
consequentialist and categorical moral
277
00:15:34,450 --> 00:15:38,350
principles the most influential example
278
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:41,470
of consequential moral reasoning is
279
00:15:41,470 --> 00:15:44,940
utilitarianism a doctrine invented by
280
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:47,860
Jeremy Bentham the 18th century English
281
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:53,190
political philosopher the most
important
282
00:15:53,190 --> 00:15:55,510
philosopher of categorical moral
283
00:15:55,510 --> 00:15:59,250
reasoning is the 18th century
German
284
00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:02,980
philosopher Immanuel Kant so we
will
285
00:16:02,980 --> 00:16:05,320
look at those two different modes of
286
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,620
moral reasoning assess them and also
287
00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:11,200
consider others if you look at the
288
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:12,820
syllabus you'll notice that we read a
289
00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:16,060
number of great and famous books
books
290
00:16:16,060 --> 00:16:20,170
by Aristotle John Locke Immanuel Kant
291
00:16:20,170 --> 00:16:24,010
John Stuart Mill and others
you'll
292
00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:25,750
notice two from the syllabus
that we
293
00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:30,010
don't only read these books we also take
294
00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:32,970
up contemporary political and
legal
295
00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:35,410
controversies that raise philosophical
296
00:16:35,410 --> 00:16:38,350
questions we will debate equality and
297
00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:41,530
inequality affirmative action
free
298
00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:43,990
speech versus hate speech same-sex
299
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:47,020
marriage military conscription a range
300
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:51,730
of practical questions why not just to
301
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:54,360
enliven these abstract and distant books
302
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,490
but to make clear to bring out what's at
303
00:16:57,490 --> 00:16:59,589
stake in our everyday lives including
304
00:16:59,589 --> 00:17:04,679
our political lives for philosophy and
305
00:17:04,679 --> 00:17:07,869
so we will read these books and we will
306
00:17:07,869 --> 00:17:10,929
debate these issues and we'll see how
307
00:17:10,929 --> 00:17:14,470
each informs and illuminates the other
308
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:18,159
this may sound appealing enough but here
309
00:17:18,159 --> 00:17:22,659
I have to issue a warning and
the
310
00:17:22,659 --> 00:17:27,720
warning is this to read these books in
311
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,500
this way as an exercise in
312
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:34,929
self-knowledge to read them in
this way
313
00:17:34,929 --> 00:17:38,919
carries certain risks
risks that are
314
00:17:38,919 --> 00:17:42,340
both personal and political risks that
315
00:17:42,340 --> 00:17:45,879
every student of political
philosophy is
316
00:17:45,879 --> 00:17:49,450
known these risks spring from the fact
317
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:55,029
that philosophy teaches us and unsettles
318
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:57,850
us by confronting us with what
we
319
00:17:57,850 --> 00:18:03,399
already know there's an irony the
320
00:18:03,399 --> 00:18:05,590
difficulty of this course consists in
321
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:07,269
the fact that it teaches what
you
322
00:18:07,269 --> 00:18:12,370
already know it works by taking what we
323
00:18:12,370 --> 00:18:14,950
know from familiar unquestioned settings
324
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:20,529
and making it strange that's how
those
325
00:18:20,529 --> 00:18:23,289
examples work worked the hypotheticals
326
00:18:23,289 --> 00:18:26,289
with which we began with their
mix of
327
00:18:26,289 --> 00:18:29,620
playfulness and sobriety it's also how
328
00:18:29,620 --> 00:18:31,330
these philosophical books
were
329
00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:35,799
philosophy estranges us from the
330
00:18:35,799 --> 00:18:38,350
familiar not by supplying new
331
00:18:38,350 --> 00:18:41,440
information but by inviting and
332
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:47,649
provoking a new way of seeing
but and
333
00:18:47,649 --> 00:18:51,730
here's the risk once the familiar turns
334
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:57,059
strange it's never quite the
same again
335
00:18:57,059 --> 00:19:01,950
self-knowledge is like lost innocence
336
00:19:01,950 --> 00:19:06,279
however unsettling you find it
it can
337
00:19:06,279 --> 00:19:13,690
never be unthought or unknown what makes
338
00:19:13,690 --> 00:19:17,289
this enterprise difficult but also
339
00:19:17,289 --> 00:19:18,840
riveting
340
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,629
is that moral and political philosophy
341
00:19:21,629 --> 00:19:26,309
is a story and you don't know
where the
342
00:19:26,309 --> 00:19:28,470
story will lead but what you do know is
343
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:34,649
that the story is about
you those are
344
00:19:34,649 --> 00:19:37,470
the personal risks now what of the
345
00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:41,309
political risks one way of introducing a
346
00:19:41,309 --> 00:19:43,980
course like this would be to
promise you
347
00:19:43,980 --> 00:19:46,080
that by reading these books and
debating
348
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,809
these issues you will become a
better
349
00:19:48,809 --> 00:19:51,960
more responsible citizen you
will
350
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:53,999
examine the presuppositions of Public
351
00:19:53,999 --> 00:19:55,590
Policy you will hone your political
352
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:57,869
judgment you will become a
more
353
00:19:57,869 --> 00:20:01,700
effective participant in public affairs
354
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:03,990
but this would be a partial and
355
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:07,529
misleading promise political philosophy
356
00:20:07,529 --> 00:20:10,490
for the most part hasn't worked that way
357
00:20:10,490 --> 00:20:12,539
you have to allow for the
possibility
358
00:20:12,539 --> 00:20:16,440
that political philosophy may make you a
359
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,029
worse citizen rather than a better one
360
00:20:20,029 --> 00:20:24,240
or at least a worse citizen
before it
361
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,139
makes you a better one and that's
362
00:20:28,139 --> 00:20:31,909
because philosophy is a distancing even
363
00:20:31,909 --> 00:20:37,110
debilitating activity and you see this
364
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:39,960
going back to socrates there's
a
365
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,450
dialogue the gorgias in which one of
366
00:20:42,450 --> 00:20:45,779
Socrates's friends galaxies tries to
367
00:20:45,779 --> 00:20:49,860
talk him out of philosophizing
kal
368
00:20:49,860 --> 00:20:52,139
achlys tells socrates philosophy is a
369
00:20:52,139 --> 00:20:55,679
pretty toy if one indulges in it with
370
00:20:55,679 --> 00:20:57,990
moderation at the right time of life but
371
00:20:57,990 --> 00:21:00,059
if one pursues it further than one
372
00:21:00,059 --> 00:21:02,999
should it is absolute ruin
373
00:21:02,999 --> 00:21:06,600
take my advice calico says abandon
374
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,509
argument learn the accomplishments of
375
00:21:09,509 --> 00:21:12,600
active life take for your models not
376
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,580
those people who spend their
time on
377
00:21:14,580 --> 00:21:17,549
these petty quibbles but those who have
378
00:21:17,549 --> 00:21:19,769
a good livelihood and reputation and
379
00:21:19,769 --> 00:21:23,100
many other blessings
so kal achlys is
380
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,759
really saying to fall off to
socrates
381
00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:29,980
quit philosophizing get real
382
00:21:29,980 --> 00:21:32,880
go to business school
383
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:38,520
and callek Lee's did have a point he had
384
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,700
a point because philosophy
distances us
385
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:43,580
from conventions from established
386
00:21:43,580 --> 00:21:46,230
assumptions and from settled beliefs
387
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:48,870
those are the risks personal
and
388
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:51,270
political and in the face of
these risks
389
00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:54,090
there is a characteristic evasion the
390
00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:56,310
name of the evasion is skepticism it's
391
00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:58,290
the idea well it goes something like
392
00:21:58,290 --> 00:21:58,770
this
393
00:21:58,770 --> 00:22:02,750
we didn't resolve once and for all
394
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:05,880
either the cases or the
principles we
395
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,870
were arguing when we began and if
396
00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:12,660
Aristotle and Locke and Kant and mill
397
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:14,760
haven't solved these questions after all
398
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,560
of these years who are we to think that
399
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,600
we here in Sanders theater
over the
400
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,390
course of a semester can resolve
them
401
00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:29,370
and so maybe it's just a matter
of each
402
00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:31,800
person having his or her own
principles
403
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:32,910
and there's nothing more to
be said
404
00:22:32,910 --> 00:22:36,660
about it no way of reasoning
that's the
405
00:22:36,660 --> 00:22:39,480
evasion the evasion of
skepticism to
406
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,570
which I would offer the following reply
407
00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:44,610
it's true these questions have been
408
00:22:44,610 --> 00:22:47,730
debated for a very long time but
the
409
00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:50,190
very fact that they have recurred and
410
00:22:50,190 --> 00:22:54,960
persisted may suggest that though
411
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,170
they're impossible in one sense they're
412
00:22:57,170 --> 00:23:00,360
unavoidable in another and the reason
413
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:02,700
they're unavoidable the reason they're
414
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:05,540
inescapable is that we live some answer
415
00:23:05,540 --> 00:23:10,140
to these questions every day so
416
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:12,150
skepticism just throwing up your
hands
417
00:23:12,150 --> 00:23:15,020
and giving up on moral
reflection
418
00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:18,950
there's no solution Immanuel Kant
419
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:21,240
described very well the problem
with
420
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,880
skepticism when he wrote skepticism is a
421
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,340
resting place for human reason where it
422
00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:28,290
can reflect upon its dogmatic wanderings
423
00:23:28,290 --> 00:23:30,420
but it is no dwelling place for
424
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:33,750
permanent settlement simply to acquiesce
425
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:36,000
in skepticism Kant wrote can never
426
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,510
suffice to overcome the restlessness of
427
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:44,100
reason I've tried to suggest through
428
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:46,050
these stories and these arguments
429
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:48,810
some sense of the risks
and temptations
430
00:23:48,810 --> 00:23:51,780
of the perils and the possibilities I
431
00:23:51,780 --> 00:23:55,770
would simply conclude by saying that the
432
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:59,070
aim of this course is to awaken
the
433
00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:02,880
restlessness of reason and to
see where
434
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,950
it might lead thank you very
much
435
00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:16,990
like in a situation that
desperate you
436
00:24:16,990 --> 00:24:18,010
have to do what you have to do to
437
00:24:18,010 --> 00:24:20,080
survive you have to do what you have to
438
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,520
do yeah I've got to do what you had to
439
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,590
do pretty much if you've been
going
440
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:26,110
nineteen days without any
food um you
441
00:24:26,110 --> 00:24:27,220
know someone just has to take
the
442
00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:28,480
sacrifice someone has to make sacrifices
443
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,820
and people can survive all right
that's
444
00:24:30,820 --> 00:24:31,960
good what's your name
445
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,360
Marcus Marcus what do you say to Marcus
446
00:24:39,660 --> 00:24:46,900
last time we started out last time with
447
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:50,110
some stories with some moral dilemmas
448
00:24:50,110 --> 00:24:54,000
about trolley cars and about doctors and
449
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,820
healthy patients vulnerable to being
450
00:24:57,820 --> 00:25:00,940
victims of organ transplantation
we
451
00:25:00,940 --> 00:25:04,570
noticed two things about the arguments
452
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:07,780
we had one had to do with the way we
453
00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:11,500
were arguing we began with our
judgments
454
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:13,990
in particular cases we tried to
455
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:17,490
articulate the reasons
or the principles
456
00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:22,809
lying behind our judgments and then
457
00:25:22,809 --> 00:25:25,750
confronted with a new case we
found
458
00:25:25,750 --> 00:25:29,910
ourselves reexamining those principles
459
00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:32,020
revising each in the light of the other
460
00:25:32,020 --> 00:25:35,919
and we noticed the built-in pressure to
461
00:25:35,919 --> 00:25:38,799
try to bring into alignment our
462
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:41,770
judgments about particular cases and the
463
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:43,510
principles we would endorse on
464
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:47,530
reflection we also noticed something
465
00:25:47,530 --> 00:25:49,809
about the substance of the arguments
466
00:25:49,809 --> 00:25:55,270
that emerged from the discussion
we
467
00:25:55,270 --> 00:25:57,400
noticed that sometimes we were tempted
468
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,710
to locate the morality of an act and the
469
00:25:59,710 --> 00:26:02,530
consequences in the results in the state
470
00:26:02,530 --> 00:26:06,010
of the world that it brought
about and
471
00:26:06,010 --> 00:26:08,530
we call this consequentialist moral
472
00:26:08,530 --> 00:26:13,030
reasoning but we also noticed that in
473
00:26:13,030 --> 00:26:18,700
some cases we weren't swayed only by the
474
00:26:18,700 --> 00:26:22,810
result sometimes
475
00:26:22,810 --> 00:26:25,740
many of us felt that not just
476
00:26:25,740 --> 00:26:27,910
consequences but also the intrinsic
477
00:26:27,910 --> 00:26:31,660
quality or character of the act
matters
478
00:26:31,660 --> 00:26:36,550
morally some people argued that there
479
00:26:36,550 --> 00:26:38,160
are certain things that are
just
480
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,830
categorically wrong even if they bring
481
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:45,940
about a good result even if they
save
482
00:26:45,940 --> 00:26:49,810
five people at the cost of one life so
483
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:52,410
we contrasted consequentialist moral
484
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:58,060
principles with categorical ones today
485
00:26:58,060 --> 00:27:01,540
and in the next few days we
will begin
486
00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:05,430
to examine one of the most influential
487
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:08,250
versions of consequentialist moral
488
00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:12,040
theory and that's the philosophy
of
489
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,920
utilitarianism Jeremy Bentham the 18th
490
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,760
century English political
philosopher
491
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,460
gave first the first clear systematic
492
00:27:24,460 --> 00:27:28,600
expression to the utilitarian moral
493
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:36,820
theory and Bentham's idea his essential
494
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:44,250
idea is a very simple one with a lot of
495
00:27:44,250 --> 00:27:48,850
morally intuitive appeal Bentham's idea
496
00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:53,460
is the following the right thing to do
497
00:27:53,460 --> 00:28:00,690
the just thing to do is to maximize
498
00:28:00,690 --> 00:28:06,100
utility what did he mean by utility he
499
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:11,560
meant by utility the balance of pleasure
500
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,750
over pain happiness over
suffering
501
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:18,940
here's how he arrived at the principle
502
00:28:18,940 --> 00:28:23,020
of maximizing
utility he started out by
503
00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:26,860
observing that all of us all
human
504
00:28:26,860 --> 00:28:30,549
beings are governed by two sovereign
505
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:37,120
pain and pleasure we human beings light
506
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:42,730
pleasure and dislike pain and so we
507
00:28:42,730 --> 00:28:46,149
should base morality whether we're
508
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:47,470
thinking about what to do in our own
509
00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:51,610
lives or whether as legislators or
510
00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:53,350
citizens we're thinking about what the
511
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:58,000
laws should be the right thing to do
512
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,320
individually or collectively is to
513
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,830
maximize act in a
way that maximizes the
514
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:10,230
overall level of happiness
515
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:13,480
Bentham's utilitarianism is sometimes
516
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,970
summed up with the slogan the greatest
517
00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:19,440
good for the greatest number with this
518
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,990
basic principle of utility on
hand let's
519
00:29:22,990 --> 00:29:26,440
begin to test it and to examine it by
520
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,840
turning to another case another story
521
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,130
but this time not a hypothetical story a
522
00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:35,289
real-life story the case of
the Queen
523
00:29:35,289 --> 00:29:38,559
versus Dudley and
Stephens this was a
524
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:41,110
19th century British law case that's
525
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:46,559
famous and much debated in law schools
526
00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:49,929
here's what happened in the case I'll
527
00:29:49,929 --> 00:29:53,880
summarize the story that I want to hear
528
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,090
how you would rule imagining that you or
529
00:29:58,090 --> 00:30:05,350
the jury a newspaper account of
the time
530
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:09,639
described the background a
sadder story
531
00:30:09,639 --> 00:30:12,700
of disaster at sea was never told than
532
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:14,559
that of the survivors of the
yacht
533
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:17,200
mignonette the ship foundered in the
534
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,139
South Atlantic it's 1,300 miles
from the
535
00:30:20,139 --> 00:30:23,980
Cape there were four
in the crew Dudley
536
00:30:23,980 --> 00:30:27,220
was the captain Stevens was the first
537
00:30:27,220 --> 00:30:30,669
mate Brooks was a sailor all men of
538
00:30:30,669 --> 00:30:33,340
excellent character or so the newspaper
539
00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:34,860
account tells us
540
00:30:34,860 --> 00:30:37,679
the fourth crewmember was the
cabin boy
541
00:30:37,679 --> 00:30:43,179
Richard Parker 17 years old he was an
542
00:30:43,179 --> 00:30:47,350
orphan he had no
family and he was on
543
00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:52,000
his first long voyage at sea he went the
544
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,460
news account tells us rather against the
545
00:30:54,460 --> 00:30:57,100
advice of his friends he went in the
546
00:30:57,100 --> 00:30:59,250
hopefulness of youthful ambition
547
00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:01,779
thinking the journey would make a man of
548
00:31:01,779 --> 00:31:05,620
him sadly it was not to be the
facts of
549
00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:07,149
the case were not in dispute
550
00:31:07,149 --> 00:31:09,789
a wave hit the ship and mignonette went
551
00:31:09,789 --> 00:31:13,509
down the four crew members escaped to a
552
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:14,259
lifeboat
553
00:31:14,259 --> 00:31:19,840
the only food they had were two cans of
554
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,039
preserved turnips no fresh
water for the
555
00:31:24,039 --> 00:31:26,740
first three days they ate
nothing on the
556
00:31:26,740 --> 00:31:29,259
fourth day they opened one of the cans
557
00:31:29,259 --> 00:31:30,909
of turnips and ate it
558
00:31:30,909 --> 00:31:33,360
the next day they caught a turtle
559
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,009
together with the other can of turnips
560
00:31:36,009 --> 00:31:40,120
the turtle enabled them to subsist for
561
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,649
the next few days and then for eight
562
00:31:41,649 --> 00:31:45,899
days they had nothing no food no
water
563
00:31:45,899 --> 00:31:48,700
imagine yourself in a situation like
564
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:53,169
that what would you do here's what they
565
00:31:53,169 --> 00:31:54,149
did
566
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:57,519
by now the cabin boy Parker is lying at
567
00:31:57,519 --> 00:31:59,850
the bottom of the
lifeboat in the corner
568
00:31:59,850 --> 00:32:03,250
because he had drunk seawater
against
569
00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:05,740
the advice of the others and he
had
570
00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:09,570
become ill and he appeared to be
dying
571
00:32:09,570 --> 00:32:13,049
so on the 19th day Dudley the
captain
572
00:32:13,049 --> 00:32:16,389
suggested that they should all have a
573
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:18,789
lottery that they should draw lots to
574
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:23,009
see who would die to save the rest
575
00:32:23,009 --> 00:32:24,190
Brooks
576
00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:28,139
refused he didn't like the lottery idea
577
00:32:28,139 --> 00:32:31,149
we don't know whether this was because
578
00:32:31,149 --> 00:32:33,190
he didn't want to take the chance or
579
00:32:33,190 --> 00:32:35,289
because he believed in categorical moral
580
00:32:35,289 --> 00:32:39,250
principles but in any case no lots were
581
00:32:39,250 --> 00:32:43,809
drawn the next day there was still no
582
00:32:43,809 --> 00:32:46,779
ship in sight so Dudley told Brooks to
583
00:32:46,779 --> 00:32:48,039
avert his gaze
584
00:32:48,039 --> 00:32:51,159
and he motioned to Stevens
that the boy
585
00:32:51,159 --> 00:32:53,979
Parker had better be killed dudley
586
00:32:53,979 --> 00:32:56,739
offered a prayer he told the boy his
587
00:32:56,739 --> 00:32:59,259
time had come and he killed him with a
588
00:32:59,259 --> 00:33:01,539
pen knife stabbing him in the
jugular
589
00:33:01,539 --> 00:33:05,229
vein brooks emerged from
his
590
00:33:05,229 --> 00:33:07,539
conscientious objection to share in the
591
00:33:07,539 --> 00:33:11,350
gruesome bounty for four days
the three
592
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:13,239
of them fed on the body and blood of 00:33:17,409
cabin boy true story and then they were
594
00:33:17,409 --> 00:33:22,049
rescued dudley describes their rescue in
595
00:33:22,049 --> 00:33:26,139
his diary with staggering euphemism
596
00:33:26,139 --> 00:33:30,159
quote on the 24th day as we were having
597
00:33:30,159 --> 00:33:32,940
our breakfast
598
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,800
a ship appeared at last the three
599
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,810
survivors were picked up by a German
600
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:43,060
ship they were taken back to Falmouth in
601
00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:45,400
England where they were arrested and
602
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,110
tried Brooks turned state's witness
603
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:52,000
Dudley and Stephens went to trial they
604
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,910
didn't dispute the facts they claimed
605
00:33:54,910 --> 00:33:57,970
they had acted out of necessity
that was
606
00:33:57,970 --> 00:34:00,490
their defense they argued in effect
607
00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:03,880
better that one should die so
that three
608
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:08,830
could survive the prosecutor wasn't
609
00:34:08,830 --> 00:34:10,060
swayed by that argument
610
00:34:10,060 --> 00:34:12,969
he said murder is murder and so the case
611
00:34:12,969 --> 00:34:14,949
went to trial now imagine you are the
612
00:34:14,949 --> 00:34:18,510
jury and just to simplify the discussion
613
00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:21,969
put aside the question of law let's
614
00:34:21,969 --> 00:34:26,380
assume that you as the jury are charged
615
00:34:26,380 --> 00:34:29,380
with deciding whether what they did was
616
00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:33,210
morally permissible or not
617
00:34:33,449 --> 00:34:40,900
how many would vote not guilty
that what
618
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:44,310
they did was morally permissible
619
00:34:48,929 --> 00:34:51,779
and how many would vote guilty what they
620
00:34:51,779 --> 00:34:55,918
did was morally wrong a
pretty sizable
621
00:34:55,918 --> 00:34:59,130
majority now let's see what people's
622
00:34:59,130 --> 00:35:01,230
reasons are and let me begin with those
623
00:35:01,230 --> 00:35:04,289
who are in the minority let's hear first
624
00:35:04,289 --> 00:35:09,109
from the defense of Doug Lee and Stevens
625
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:13,190
why would you morally exonerate them
626
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:18,599
what are your reasons yes I
think it's I
627
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:20,849
think it is morally
reprehensible but I
628
00:35:20,849 --> 00:35:22,319
think that there's a sting ssin
between
629
00:35:22,319 --> 00:35:24,359
what's morally reprehensible
and what
630
00:35:24,359 --> 00:35:26,400
makes someone legally accountable 00:35:28,200
other words you know as the judge said
632
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:29,730
what's what's always moral isn't
633
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:32,010
necessarily against the law and while I
634
00:35:32,010 --> 00:35:35,510
don't think that necessity justifies
635
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:38,579
theft or murder or any illegal act at
636
00:35:38,579 --> 00:35:41,640
some point your degree of necessity does
637
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,099
in fact exonerate you from any guilt
638
00:35:44,099 --> 00:35:45,329
okay good
639
00:35:45,329 --> 00:35:47,930
other defenders other voices for the
640
00:35:47,930 --> 00:35:53,039
defense moral justifications for what
641
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:57,990
they did yes all right thank you
um I
642
00:35:57,990 --> 00:36:00,299
just feel like in the situation
that
643
00:36:00,299 --> 00:36:01,799
desperate you have to do what you have
644
00:36:01,799 --> 00:36:02,730
to do to survive
645
00:36:02,730 --> 00:36:04,349
oh you have to do what you have to do
646
00:36:04,349 --> 00:36:05,789
yeah I've got to do what you had
to do
647
00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:08,400
pretty much if you've been
going 19 days
648
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,680
without any food um you know
someone
649
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,000
just has to take the sacrifice someone
650
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,770
has to make sacrifices and
people can
651
00:36:13,770 --> 00:36:16,230
survive and furthermore from that let's
652
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:17,760
say they survive and then they become
653
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,440
productive members of society
who go
654
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,450
home and start like a million charity
655
00:36:21,450 --> 00:36:22,740
organizations and this and
that and this
656
00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:24,329
and that I mean they benefit everybody
657
00:36:24,329 --> 00:36:26,160
in the end no I mean I don't know what
658
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,450
they did afterwards they might have gone
659
00:36:27,450 --> 00:36:29,309
in like don't kill more people
on
660
00:36:29,309 --> 00:36:33,630
whatever but what what if they were went
661
00:36:33,630 --> 00:36:35,220
home and they turned out to be assassins
662
00:36:35,220 --> 00:36:36,779
but they weren't going home and
turned
663
00:36:36,779 --> 00:36:39,210
out to be assassins mmm well you'd want
664
00:36:39,210 --> 00:36:43,290
to know who they assassinated
ask you
665
00:36:43,290 --> 00:36:46,359
that's fair okay with a sense all right
666
00:36:46,359 --> 00:36:46,990
that's good
667
00:36:46,990 --> 00:36:49,680
what's your name Marcus Marcus
all right
668
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,570
we've heard a defense a couple of voices
669
00:36:52,570 --> 00:36:55,660
for the defense now we need to hear from
670
00:36:55,660 --> 00:36:58,470
the prosecution most people
think that
671
00:36:58,470 --> 00:37:04,930
they did was wrong why
yes one of the
672
00:37:04,930 --> 00:37:06,790
first things that I was thinking
was oh
673
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:08,589
if they haven't been eating for a really
674
00:37:08,589 --> 00:37:13,329
long time maybe they they're
mentally
675
00:37:13,329 --> 00:37:16,869
like affected and so then that could be
676
00:37:16,869 --> 00:37:18,550
used as a defense a possible argument
677
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:21,940
that oh they weren't in the proper state
678
00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:24,160
of mind they weren't making decisions
679
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,990
they might otherwise be making and if
680
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:27,670
that's an appealing
argument that that
681
00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:30,070
you have to be in an altered mindset to
682
00:37:30,070 --> 00:37:32,460
do something like that it suggests that
683
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:35,190
people who find that argument
convincing
684
00:37:35,190 --> 00:37:37,599
do think that they were acting and but
685
00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:38,950
what is I want to know what you
think
686
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:41,230
you defend them you go I'm
sorry you
687
00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:43,270
vote to to convict right yeah I don't
688
00:37:43,270 --> 00:37:45,160
think that they acted in a morally
689
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,530
appropriate way and why not what
do you
690
00:37:47,530 --> 00:37:50,380
say here's Marcus he just defended them
691
00:37:50,380 --> 00:37:53,619
he said you heard what he said
692
00:37:53,619 --> 00:37:56,980
yes dead yes yeah
that you've got to do
693
00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:58,210
what you've got to do in a case like
694
00:37:58,210 --> 00:37:58,930
that
695
00:37:58,930 --> 00:38:05,460
yeah what do you say to Marcus but in
696
00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:08,230
that there's no situation
that would
697
00:38:08,230 --> 00:38:14,079
allow human beings to take the idea of
698
00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:16,150
fate or that the other people's lives 00:38:17,950
their own hands that we don't have that
700
00:38:17,950 --> 00:38:19,630
kind of power
701
00:38:19,630 --> 00:38:22,089
good okay thank you any what's
your name
702
00:38:22,089 --> 00:38:24,400
great red yeah okay
703
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,060
who else what do you say Jenna
I'm
704
00:38:28,060 --> 00:38:30,160
wondering if Dudley and Stephen had
705
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:31,839
asked Richard for Richard Parker's
706
00:38:31,839 --> 00:38:35,619
consent in you know dying um if that
707
00:38:35,619 --> 00:38:39,520
would would that exonerate them from
708
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,910
from an act of murder and if so is that
709
00:38:42,910 --> 00:38:45,369
still morally justifiable that's
710
00:38:45,369 --> 00:38:47,050
interesting all right consent what's
711
00:38:47,050 --> 00:38:49,089
wait wait hang on what's your
name
712
00:38:49,089 --> 00:38:52,690
Kathleen Kathleen says suppose they had
713
00:38:52,690 --> 00:38:54,870
at what would that scenario look
like so
714
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:57,990
Oh in the story Dudley is there
penknife
715
00:38:57,990 --> 00:39:02,640
in hand but instead of the prayer or
716
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,590
before the prayer he says Parker would
717
00:39:07,590 --> 00:39:10,040
you mind
718
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,880
we're desperately hungry as Marcus
719
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,730
empathy and empathizers with we're
720
00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:20,340
desperately hungry you're not gonna last
721
00:39:20,340 --> 00:39:22,770
long anyhow yeah you can be a martyr
722
00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:26,250
would you be a martyr how about
it
723
00:39:26,250 --> 00:39:34,050
Parker then then would
it what do you
724
00:39:34,050 --> 00:39:35,760
think would it be morally justified then
725
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,460
submit suppose suppose Parker in his
726
00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:43,380
semi stupor says okay um I
don't think
727
00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:45,000
it would be morally justifiable but I'm
728
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,800
wonderin then even then it wouldn't be
729
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,110
no you don't think that even
with
730
00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:51,990
consent it would be morally justified
731
00:39:51,990 --> 00:39:55,020
are there people who think who want to
732
00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:57,660
take up Kathleen's consent idea and who
733
00:39:57,660 --> 00:39:59,460
think that that would make it morally
734
00:39:59,460 --> 00:40:01,590
justified raise your hand if it would if
735
00:40:01,590 --> 00:40:06,090
you think it would that's very
736
00:40:06,090 --> 00:40:06,870
interesting
737
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:09,690
why would consent make a moral
738
00:40:09,690 --> 00:40:15,750
difference why would it yes well I just
739
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:17,130
think that if he was making his own
740
00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:19,920
original idea and it was his idea to
741
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,600
start with then that would be
the only
742
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,210
situation in which I would see
it being
743
00:40:24,210 --> 00:40:26,250
appropriate in any way because that way
744
00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:28,410
you couldn't make the argument that he
745
00:40:28,410 --> 00:40:30,840
was pressured you know it's three to one
746
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,150
or whatever the ratio was right and I
747
00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:34,920
think that if he was making a decision
748
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,600
to give his life and he took on the
749
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,690
agency to sacrifice himself
which some
750
00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:41,580
people might see as admirable
and other
751
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:44,450
people might disagree with that
decision
752
00:40:44,450 --> 00:40:49,050
so if he came up with the idea that's
753
00:40:49,050 --> 00:40:51,150
the only kind of consent we could have
754
00:40:51,150 --> 00:40:53,520
confidence in morally then it would be
755
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,990
okay otherwise it would be kind
of
756
00:40:57,990 --> 00:41:00,780
coerced consent under the
circumstances
757
00:41:00,780 --> 00:41:06,240
you think is there anyone who
thinks
758
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,440
that even the
759
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,390
scent of Parker would not justify their
760
00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:18,130
killing him who thinks that yes
tell us
761
00:41:18,130 --> 00:41:21,430
why stand up I think that a Parker would
762
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:23,170
be killed with the hope that the other
763
00:41:23,170 --> 00:41:26,560
crew members would be rescued so
there's
764
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,270
no definite reason that he should be
765
00:41:28,270 --> 00:41:31,210
killed because you don't know
who when
766
00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:33,069
they're gonna get rescued so if you kill
767
00:41:33,069 --> 00:41:34,270
him it's killing him and Bane do
you
768
00:41:34,270 --> 00:41:35,680
keep telling the crew member until
769
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,359
you're rescued and then you're left no
770
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:38,680
one because someone's gonna die
771
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,440
eventually well the moral logic
of the
772
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,410
situation seems to be that that they
773
00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:47,349
would keep on picking off the weakest
774
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:51,790
maybe one by one until they were rescued
775
00:41:51,790 --> 00:41:53,710
and in this case luckily they
were
776
00:41:53,710 --> 00:41:55,420
rescued when three at least were still
777
00:41:55,420 --> 00:41:59,980
alive now if if Parker did give his
778
00:41:59,980 --> 00:42:02,260
consent would it be all right do you
779
00:42:02,260 --> 00:42:04,930
think or not no no it still wouldn't be
780
00:42:04,930 --> 00:42:07,300
right and tell us why it wouldn't be all
781
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:09,609
right first of all cannibalism I believe
782
00:42:09,609 --> 00:42:13,150
is morally incorrect so shouldn't be
783
00:42:13,150 --> 00:42:15,720
eating human anyway so you
784
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,119
so cannibalism is morally objectionable
785
00:42:18,119 --> 00:42:22,290
at suck so then even on the
scenario up
786
00:42:22,290 --> 00:42:24,720
waiting until someone died still it
787
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:26,609
would be objectionable yes
788
00:42:26,609 --> 00:42:29,670
swimming personally I feel like um it
789
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:32,730
all depends on one's personal morals and
790
00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:35,460
like we can't sit here inches
like this
791
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:37,260
is just my opinion and of course other
792
00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:39,750
people are gonna disagree okay
see let's
793
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:41,490
see what their disagreements are and
794
00:42:41,490 --> 00:42:44,280
then we'll see if they have reasons that
795
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,710
can persuade you or not let's
try that
796
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:52,280
alright let's um now is there someone
797
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,170
who can explain those of you who are
798
00:42:55,170 --> 00:42:59,700
tempted by consent can you explain why
799
00:42:59,700 --> 00:43:02,550
consent makes such a moral
difference
800
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:05,940
what about the lottery idea does
that
801
00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:07,589
count as consent remember at the
802
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:10,250
beginning Dudley proposed a lottery
803
00:43:10,250 --> 00:43:13,950
suppose that they had
agreed to a
804
00:43:13,950 --> 00:43:20,790
lottery then how many would then say it
805
00:43:20,790 --> 00:43:23,000
was alright suppose there were a
lottery
806
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,099
cabin-boy lost and the rest of
the story
807
00:43:26,099 --> 00:43:27,630
unfolded then how many people
would say
808
00:43:27,630 --> 00:43:33,390
it was morally permissible so the
809
00:43:33,390 --> 00:43:35,130
numbers are rising if we had a
lottery
810
00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:37,470
let's hear from one of you for
whom the
811
00:43:37,470 --> 00:43:40,640
lottery would make a moral difference
812
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,430
why would it I think the
essential
813
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:46,859
element in my line that makes it a crime
814
00:43:46,859 --> 00:43:49,500
is the idea that they decided at some
815
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,270
point that their lives were more
816
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:54,089
important than his and that I mean
817
00:43:54,089 --> 00:43:55,530
that's kind of the basis for really any
818
00:43:55,530 --> 00:43:58,290
crime right it's like my needs
my
819
00:43:58,290 --> 00:43:59,819
desires are more important than
yours
820
00:43:59,819 --> 00:44:02,339
and mine take
precedent and if they had
821
00:44:02,339 --> 00:44:04,079
done a lottery where everyone consented
822
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:06,869
that someone should
die and it's sort of
823
00:44:06,869 --> 00:44:08,339
like they're all sacrificing themselves
824
00:44:08,339 --> 00:44:11,579
to save the rest then it would be all
825
00:44:11,579 --> 00:44:12,060
right
826
00:44:12,060 --> 00:44:16,290
a little grotesque but but
morally
827
00:44:16,290 --> 00:44:19,560
permissible yes and what's your name
828
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:26,400
Matt so Matt for you what bothers you is
829
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,040
not the cannibalism but the lack of due
830
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:29,400
process
831
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:34,920
I guess you could say that right
and can
832
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,370
someone who agrees with Matt say
a
833
00:44:38,370 --> 00:44:42,680
little bit more about why a
lottery
834
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,160
would make it in your view
morally
835
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,850
permissible go ahead the way I
836
00:44:50,850 --> 00:44:52,830
understood it originally was that that
837
00:44:52,830 --> 00:44:54,360
was the whole issue is that the
Kevin
838
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,820
boy was never consulted about whether or
839
00:44:56,820 --> 00:44:58,590
not something was gonna happen to him
840
00:44:58,590 --> 00:45:01,080
even with the original lottery
whether
841
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:02,940
or not he would be a part of
that it was
842
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:05,100
just decided that he was the one that
843
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:06,870
was going to die that's what
happened in
844
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:08,700
the actual case right but if
there were
845
00:45:08,700 --> 00:45:10,470
a lottery and they'd all agreed to 00:45:13,080
procedure you think that would
be okay
847
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:14,730
right because then everyone
knows that
848
00:45:14,730 --> 00:45:17,070
there's gonna be a
death whereas you
849
00:45:17,070 --> 00:45:19,080
know the Kevin we didn't know that this
850
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,210
discussion was even happening
there was
851
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:24,030
no you know forewarning for him to know
852
00:45:24,030 --> 00:45:25,920
that hey I may be the one that's
dying
853
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,680
all right now
suppose he everyone agrees
854
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,480
to the lottery they have the lottery 00:45:33,560
cabin boy loses and he changes his mind
856
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,940
you've already decided it's like a
857
00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:38,100
verbal contract you can't go back on
858
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:39,930
that you've decided the decision was
859
00:45:39,930 --> 00:45:41,880
made you know if you know that
you're
860
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,680
dying for the you know the
reasons for
861
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,680
others to live you would if someone else
862
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,660
had died you know that you would consume
863
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:52,860
them so right but I but then he could
864
00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:57,240
say I know but I lost I just
think that
865
00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:58,500
that's the whole moral issue is that
866
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:00,780
there was no consulting of the cabin boy
867
00:46:00,780 --> 00:46:03,170
and that that's what makes it the most
868
00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:05,910
horrible is that he had no idea what was
869
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:08,010
even going on that had he known what was
870
00:46:08,010 --> 00:46:11,040
going on it would be a
bit more
871
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,590
understandable all right good now I want
872
00:46:13,590 --> 00:46:16,980
to hear so there are some who
think it's
873
00:46:16,980 --> 00:46:19,590
morally permissible but only about 20
874
00:46:19,590 --> 00:46:25,870
percent led by Marcus
875
00:46:25,870 --> 00:46:28,630
then there are some who say the
real
876
00:46:28,630 --> 00:46:31,770
problem here is the lack of
consent
877
00:46:31,770 --> 00:46:34,450
whether the lack of consent to
a lottery
878
00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:39,220
to a fair procedure or Kathleen's idea
879
00:46:39,220 --> 00:46:42,750
lack of consent at the moment of death
880
00:46:42,750 --> 00:46:49,450
and if we add consent then
more people
881
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:52,510
are willing to consider the
sacrifice
882
00:46:52,510 --> 00:46:55,090
morally justified I want to hear now
883
00:46:55,090 --> 00:46:58,570
finally from those of you who think even
884
00:46:58,570 --> 00:47:01,120
with consent even with a lottery even
885
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:06,070
with a final murmur of consent by Parker
886
00:47:06,070 --> 00:47:09,760
at the very last moment it would
still
887
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,600
be wrong and why would it be
wrong
888
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,260
that's what I want to hear yes well the
889
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:19,720
whole time I've been leaning all towards
890
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:22,840
the categorical moral reasoning and I
891
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,530
think that there's a possibility I'd be
892
00:47:26,530 --> 00:47:28,180
okay with the idea of a lottery and then
893
00:47:28,180 --> 00:47:30,520
the loser taking into their own
hands to
894
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,510
kill themselves so there wouldn't be you
895
00:47:34,510 --> 00:47:36,160
know an active murder but I still think
896
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,970
that even that way it's coerced
and also
897
00:47:39,970 --> 00:47:41,440
I don't think that there is any
remorse
898
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,540
like in Dudley's diary we were eating
899
00:47:43,540 --> 00:47:45,730
our breakfast it seems as though
he's
900
00:47:45,730 --> 00:47:48,340
just sort of like um you know
the whole
901
00:47:48,340 --> 00:47:50,380
idea of that not valuing someone
else's
902
00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:54,340
life so that makes me feel like
I have
903
00:47:54,340 --> 00:47:56,200
to take the cata gonna throw the book at
904
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,780
him what when he lacks remorse or a
905
00:47:58,780 --> 00:48:00,610
sense of having done anything wrong
906
00:48:00,610 --> 00:48:05,940
right so all right
good other any other
907
00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:09,280
defenders of a who say it's just
908
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,630
categorically wrong with or without
909
00:48:10,630 --> 00:48:14,320
consent yes stand up why
I think under a
910
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,090
leader where society shaped
murders
911
00:48:16,090 --> 00:48:18,370
murder murder is murdering in
every way
912
00:48:18,370 --> 00:48:20,590
in our side he looks at murder down down
913
00:48:20,590 --> 00:48:22,030
on in the same light and all thinks any
914
00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:23,800
different any case good let me
ask you a
915
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,870
question there were three lives at stake
916
00:48:25,870 --> 00:48:31,420
mm-hmm versus one okay the one the cabin
917
00:48:31,420 --> 00:48:33,310
boy he had no family he had
no
918
00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:35,620
dependents these other three had
919
00:48:35,620 --> 00:48:37,570
families back home in England
they had
920
00:48:37,570 --> 00:48:38,470
dependents
921
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:41,589
they had wives and children think back
922
00:48:41,589 --> 00:48:44,140
to Bentham Bentham says we have to
923
00:48:44,140 --> 00:48:46,750
consider the welfare the utility
the
924
00:48:46,750 --> 00:48:49,690
happiness of everybody we have
to add it
925
00:48:49,690 --> 00:48:52,450
all up so it's not just numbers
three
926
00:48:52,450 --> 00:48:55,869
against one it's also all of those
927
00:48:55,869 --> 00:48:59,380
people at home in
fact a London
928
00:48:59,380 --> 00:49:01,450
newspaper at the
time and popular
929
00:49:01,450 --> 00:49:04,359
opinion sympathized with them Dudley and
930
00:49:04,359 --> 00:49:06,400
Stephens and the paper said if they
931
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,280
weren't motivated by affection and
932
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,799
concern for their loved ones at home in
933
00:49:11,799 --> 00:49:13,150
their dependents surely they wouldn't
934
00:49:13,150 --> 00:49:14,859
have done this yeah and how is
that any
935
00:49:14,859 --> 00:49:17,140
different from people on a corner trying
936
00:49:17,140 --> 00:49:18,520
to have with the same desire to feed
937
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:19,599
their family I don't think it's any
938
00:49:19,599 --> 00:49:21,369
different I think in any case if I'm
939
00:49:21,369 --> 00:49:23,079
from murdering you don't invest
my
940
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:24,970
status that's murder and I think that we
941
00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:26,170
should look at all that on the same
942
00:49:26,170 --> 00:49:28,349
light instead of criminalizing certain
943
00:49:28,349 --> 00:49:31,750
activities and making certain
things
944
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:34,000
seem more violent and savage
when in the
945
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,890
same cases it's all the same
it's all
946
00:49:35,890 --> 00:49:37,630
the same act and mentality that
goes in
947
00:49:37,630 --> 00:49:39,400
the murder of necessity feeds her family
948
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,319
so suppose it weren't three suppose it
949
00:49:41,319 --> 00:49:47,289
were 3301 light to save three hundred or
950
00:49:47,289 --> 00:49:49,720
in wartime three thousand we're
hoes the
951
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:51,490
stakes are even bigger suppose
it's
952
00:49:51,490 --> 00:49:53,289
stakes even but I think it's
still the
953
00:49:53,289 --> 00:49:55,660
same do do you think Bentham is
wrong to
954
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:59,079
say the right thing to do is to add up
955
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:01,150
the collective happiness you think he's
956
00:50:01,150 --> 00:50:02,829
wrong about that I don't think
he's
957
00:50:02,829 --> 00:50:04,599
wrong but I think murder is murder in
958
00:50:04,599 --> 00:50:06,250
any case well then Bentham has to be
959
00:50:06,250 --> 00:50:08,349
wrong if you're right he's wrong okay
960
00:50:08,349 --> 00:50:11,789
he's wrong all right thank you
well done
961
00:50:11,789 --> 00:50:14,500
all right let's step back from this
962
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:19,809
discussion and notice how many
963
00:50:19,809 --> 00:50:20,559
objections
964
00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:23,410
have we heard to what they did
we heard
965
00:50:23,410 --> 00:50:26,049
some defenses of what they did the
966
00:50:26,049 --> 00:50:28,930
defense's had to do with necessity their
967
00:50:28,930 --> 00:50:32,740
dire circumstance and implicitly at
968
00:50:32,740 --> 00:50:35,200
least the idea that numbers
matter and
969
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,260
not only numbers matter but the wider
970
00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:41,049
effects matter their families back home
971
00:50:41,049 --> 00:50:44,829
their dependents Parker was an orphan no
972
00:50:44,829 --> 00:50:50,289
one would miss him so if you add
up if
973
00:50:50,289 --> 00:50:52,270
you tried to calculate
974
00:50:52,270 --> 00:50:55,619
the balance of happiness and suffering
975
00:50:55,619 --> 00:50:59,140
you might have a case for saying
what
976
00:50:59,140 --> 00:51:02,920
they did was the right thing then we
977
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,960
heard at least three different types of
978
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:10,420
objections we heard an objection that
979
00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:13,000
said what they did was categorically
980
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,790
wrong Mike here at the end categorically
981
00:51:15,790 --> 00:51:19,180
wrong murder is murder it's always wrong
982
00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:21,670
even if it increases the overall
983
00:51:21,670 --> 00:51:26,140
happiness of society a categorical
984
00:51:26,140 --> 00:51:29,170
objection but we still need to
985
00:51:29,170 --> 00:51:33,580
investigate why murder is
categorically
986
00:51:33,580 --> 00:51:39,609
wrong is it because even cabin
boys have
987
00:51:39,609 --> 00:51:42,490
certain fundamental rights and if that's
988
00:51:42,490 --> 00:51:45,040
the reason where do those rights
come
989
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:48,430
from if not from some idea of
the larger
990
00:51:48,430 --> 00:51:50,980
welfare or utility or happiness question
991
00:51:50,980 --> 00:51:57,010
number one others said a lottery would
992
00:51:57,010 --> 00:51:59,920
make a difference a fair
procedure matt
993
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:07,119
said but and some people were swayed by
994
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:10,359
that that's not a categorical
objection
995
00:52:10,359 --> 00:52:14,380
exactly it's saying everybody has to be
996
00:52:14,380 --> 00:52:17,109
counted as an equal even though at the
997
00:52:17,109 --> 00:52:20,800
end of the day one can be
sacrificed for
998
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,950
the general welfare that leaves us with
999
00:52:23,950 --> 00:52:26,290
another question to investigate why does
1000
00:52:26,290 --> 00:52:29,859
agreement to a certain procedure even a
1001
00:52:29,859 --> 00:52:33,070
fair procedure justify whatever result
1002
00:52:33,070 --> 00:52:35,589
flows from the operation of
that
1003
00:52:35,589 --> 00:52:39,330
procedure question number two and
1004
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:43,420
question number three the basic
idea of
1005
00:52:43,420 --> 00:52:48,760
consent Kathleen got us onto
this if the
1006
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,869
cabin boy had agreed himself and
not
1007
00:52:52,869 --> 00:52:57,339
under duress as was added then
it would
1008
00:52:57,339 --> 00:52:59,230
be alright to take his life to
save the
1009
00:52:59,230 --> 00:53:03,250
rest and even more people signed
on to
1010
00:53:03,250 --> 00:53:06,170
that idea but that raises
1011
00:53:06,170 --> 00:53:08,690
a third philosophical question what is
1012
00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:14,480
the moral work that consent does why
1013
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,690
does an act of consent make such a moral
1014
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:20,150
difference that an act that
would be
1015
00:53:20,150 --> 00:53:23,410
wrong taking a life
without consent is
1016
00:53:23,410 --> 00:53:29,660
morally permissible with consent to
1017
00:53:29,660 --> 00:53:31,730
investigate those three questions we're
1018
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:33,200
going to have to read some philosophers
1019
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,989
and starting next time we're going to
1020
00:53:35,989 --> 00:53:38,480
read Bentham and John Stuart Mill
1021
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:44,119
utilitarian philosophers don't miss the
1022
00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:45,619
chance to interact online with other
1023
00:53:45,619 --> 00:53:48,109
viewers of justice join the conversation
1024
00:53:48,109 --> 00:53:50,359
take a pop quiz watch lectures
you've
1025
00:53:50,359 --> 00:53:51,829
missed and learn a lot
more
1026
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:54,319
visit justiceharvard.org it's the right
1027
00:53:54,319 --> 00:53:56,890
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1028
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:37,770
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1029
00:54:37,770 --> 00:00:00,000
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Justice - What's The Right Thing To Do - Episode 01 - THE MORAL SIDE of MURDER

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Justice - What's The Right Thing To Do - Episode 01 - THE MORAL SIDE of MURDER

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