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Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks - Lyme Disease

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Guest Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks

Despite numerous debates with TM and other board staff at the Marshall
Protocol site,
It is patently clear that 'they' are continuing to dismiss all possible

risks or any connection between the use of ARBs and the serious
symptoms that some people are complaining about: serious low blood
pressure, adrenal crisis, some describe 'heart herxs'.

Having experienced all of the above myself and nearly died because of
repeated Addison's crisis, and now having spoken to others who are
using Benicar who have also been having similar serious problems, I
have decided to take it upon my self to warn others of the potential
serious risks of having adrenal insufficiency / Addison's, and further
what to do if a crisis does occur while using ARBs and Antibiotics.

The following link is of a debate between myself and Trevor Marshall. I

would hope that this will go some way towards avoiding the fate I
suffered happening to anyone else, and further that the official board
staff at the MP.com site are sensible enough to acknowledge the
potential dangers and in future adequately warn people who may
experience such problems.

http://creatocracy.org

Steven Carroll

Back to top

Guest Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks

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Trevor Marshall: Addison´s and ARBs

This Q & A between Trevor Marshall / Steven Carroll, regarding the

potential dangers of using angiotensin II blocker (ARBs) such as
benicar, in those that have weak adrenal function, namely those who
lack Cortisol and Aldesterone production, also known in serious cases
as Addison´s disease.

Addison´s disease is a life-threatening situation, and calumniates in

what is referred to as an adrenal crisis. Following 5 such adrenal
crisis, and despite having made my problems clear on the official
Marshall Protocol site, (from the very first crisis), I felt my
symptoms were ignored by the senior staff there who dismissed my
symptoms as a herx (Bacteria die off) and following a long debate I was
forced to reframe from posting messages on the official site.

Following these events and now having a confirmed Diagnosis of

Addison´s; and having the hindsight of spending time reading up about
the possible connections between these ARBs and Addison´s, and further
from learning about others who have also described very similar
problems to me, who were also treated as I was on the official MP site,
I have decided to go public with my concerns.

Herein follows a conversation (slightly edited to exclude the sometimes

heated nature of the debate).

SC: My tests results for ACTH arrived today and were 10 times
The lower level. AMAZINGLY my light sensitivity has disappeared with
Cortisone supplementation IMMEDIATELY. As Pä here also mentioned the
same happened to her upon cortisone supplementation.

Quote:
From what I am learning, one of the most common indicators of Addison's

Is that the body obtains a sun tan (strange that). What with this being

a very common symptom of Addison's and finding that at least two people
here who are CONFIRMED to suffer with ether Addison's or Adrenal
insufficiency have mentioned that the sensitivity to sun went with
cortisone treatment, Id be surprised if what is being related to by
many here is sun induced bacteria HERX, as claimed by TM but rather a
hormonal crisis being brought on because of lack of adrenal hormones.

Many of the people who have complained of so-called Light Herx, here
and on the MP site have described symptoms exactly as I had that
were clearly not herx but rather related to hormonal changes. If anyone

looks through the battles I had on the MP site, you will see many
arguments I had with those 'in the know' with me explaining to them
that what I was experiencing was no Herx but hormonal. Contrary to

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their professional opinion.

The other interesting thing I learn recently (from those in the know
about Addison's) is that some drugs are well known to deplete ones
reserves of Aldesterone and Cortisol. I will over the next few days try
and compile some more evidence to show this. But if you read between
the lines I think we might all seriously consider having a good look
into the possibility that what is noticed as sensitive to light could
be being caused because of Adrenal hormones insufficiency.

TM: What you posted to the message board is absolute bää. Do you have
any
idea what the effect of Cortisol is on the immune system? Well, it is
time
to find out, Steve, before you kill yourself.

Meanwhile, I am not going to let you induce anybody else to kill

themselves. I know more about corticosteroids than you ever dreamed,
Steve,
and I have had quite enough of this nonsense.

Your conclusions are totally wrong. Dozens, hundreds (who cares how
many)
sick people have recovered based on our understanding of these
diseases.
You have not recovered. That is the bottom line. I can't help you while
you are convinced that everything is soooo simple. Convinced that you
are
right and everybody else is wrong.

SC: What I posted is absolute fact. No bää.. My ACTH tests are now
confirmed 10 times the limit they should be. I got almost banned on
your site for trying to explain that what Meg and others were telling
me was D herx was wrong and that rather it was hormonal. Go see your
self Im sure you can remember though. You stopped my conversations from

continuing.

I have been screaming Adrenal crisis, Addison's life threatening

episodes. Yet I have never had any further responses from any of
yourselfs about this. Nothing by way of help what-so ever. Apart from
take more benicar. Avoid Light. This is Bää.. Addison's Kills man.
And to dismiss ones experience because it does not fit well and snug
into your theory serves only to do harm to the individual and possibly
your own reputation as time goes and the truth comes out.

You have consistently failed to recognise the gravity of what I have

been saying. You have all fought me consistently about my theories of
Addison's. What is more you have banned me from discussing it on your
board and clammed I was just trying to cause others unnecessary alarm.

I don't know if you are aware but someone else I know on benicar nearly

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died a few weeks ago, off? have a guess : Adrenal crisis. I know that
The MP works. But I am still not convinced about your theory about the
Vitamin D issue, but time will tell on this. I do strongly suspect
however that Addison's will occur in some who do Benicar and abx. Not
many but I strongly suspect it will be the straw that breaks the camels
backs in at least a few.

You say you know more about Cortisol than I ever well. "Do you have any
idea what the effect of Cortisol is on the immune system" Yes without
Cortisone people with Addison's go into shock and die, they always did
until it was synthesized. Yet I know only too well that it has been
incorrectly dished out to all and sundry when they have suffered with
inflammatory diseases. I having been DX with ReA auto-immune disorder
have been offered all the bää. under the sun. Yet before this time
I have NEVER taking Cortisone b/c I too know that it is a stupid
solution to an immune problem. Instead I went out and self prescribed
abx that have giving me back my life to this point.

Cortisone in higher doses is bad, but there is a point below where one
will die without it. It being commonly known as Addison's and no amount
of benicar is going to save someone when they are in one of these
crises. I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE HAD 5 now. Each one life threatening. And
each one has weakened me further.

You say I will kill myself, what by taking cortisone b/c I have
Addison's? Are you completely äää. If I don't take it Im a dead man. Go
and look in your articles and show me where Addison's crisis will be
cured by benicar! IM WAITING.

Others need to be warned. There is a possibility that while attempting

the MP one who is borderline Addison's may run into a crisis. If that
is the case they
need help. The name of that help is called CORTISONE. No bää. talk
about åavoid light or take more benicar.´ TAKE CORTISONE. THAT IS THE
ONLY CORRECT ADVICE. Everything else is Bää..

I strongly suspect that Benicar depletes the bodies reserves of

Cortisol quicker than otherwise. I cannot prove this yet, but the
literature does mention a connection with Aldesterone. Among those in
the know about Addison's this fact is widely recognized about certain
drugs depleting ones reserves of Cortisol. I will find the data in due
course I assure you.

It is no great shakes to assume that the benicar does the same.

Especially with abx. Since the bacteria wriggle it plays havoc with the

immune system and I have not heard of one person yet who did not go
through serious herx when the abx started. So I think this is a logical

conclusion to be considered even without hard data at this time. It is

therefore only responsible to warn others about this possibility.

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TM: Steve, Your conclusions are totally wrong. Addison´s is very common
in the Sarcies. You take Cortisone and you will feel better - for a
year or two. Just look at the sarcie message boards.and you will see
the havoc that corticosteroid supplementation brings. the relapse
following my last 9months of steroids in 1989 left me barely hanging on
during the decade of the 90s.

The sun sensitivity is part and parcel of the healing process. It has
nothing to do with the MP meds, but with the bacteria being killed. If
you
supplement with corticosteroids you will stop the killing process and
you
will stop the light sensitivity - for a few years - until you relapse.

Can't you guys understand that there is a century of failed

understandings
and failed therapies lying behind us? The only folks who have ever
recovered are the ones whose advice you are rejecting.

SC: My conclusions are not 'totally wrong'. Make your self-clear. Which
ones please tell me precisely?

I state:

Benicar / Abx (or the Herx as a result) depletes adrenal reserves.

Addison's symptoms are Tanning of the skin and light-sensitivity. This
point is not mentioned in ANY of the MP papers. OVERSIGHT I think so?
I assert that these heart Herxs that people are complaining about are
being brought on by sunlight, are hormonal and NOT bacteria Herx.
Adrenal hormones at that! Look into the symptoms of adrenal crisis It
is as clear as daylight.

People close to Addison's are at risk of having an adrenal crisis,

which can be brought on B/C one is under stress. Benicar and ABX Cause
stress!

I am not advocating people take cortisone for inflammation. I never did

myself and never would. I know even just by being an electronic
designer that is a stupid solution to a problem. I AM saying that if
one is close to Addison's and they do Benicar and abx then they need to
be warned that they may suffer an Addison's crisis and in that event
should take CORTISONE.

SC>Benicar / Abx (or the Herx as a result) depletes adrenal reserves.

TM: That is a non sequitur. There is no evidence to support this

statement, and the hormonal cascade based on 1,25-D normalization would
indicate it is incorrect on its face

SC: You are really on very thin ice if you think that benicar and abx,
I.E serious Herx does not deplete adrenal reserves, as a point of fact

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stress clearly does. So trying to dismiss this clearly obvious fact

shows a lack of logic.

I will be back on that point and prove to you that in Addison's it is

known that other drugs are known to increase ones need for cortisone!
Yet I´m sure you can surmise that yourself.

SC>Addison's symptoms are Tanning of the skin and light-sensitivity.

This
Quote:
point is not mentioned in ANY of the MP papers. OVERSIGHT I think so?

TM: No, this is irrelevant

SC: It is not irrelevant when you´re having a so-called (described)

heart herx. On the contrary how a bacterial die off herx could cause
one to experience such a dread awful feeling in minutes after being
exposed to sunlight is a claim what needs to be proved by you. It is
well proven already that Addison's are sensitive to the sun (Adrenal
crisis can be brought on by this alone). Now it is up to you prove that
these slow growing bacteria start a serious herx in a few minutes in
the sun and you will have an argument. Currently you have nothing, not
a single paper that backs this up, and the best strategy you can come
up with is dismissal.

SC>All these Heart Herx that people are complaining about being brought

Quote:
on by sunlight are hormonal and NOT bacteria Herx. Adrenal hormones at
that! Look into the symptoms of adrenal crisis it is as clear as
daylight.

TM: This statement is incorrect.

SC: Well it can be proven (it is proven) that people with Addison's
react badly to the sun. The symptoms are serious problems in the
electrolytes, and blood pressure. Stemming from the Pituitary (ACTH no
doubt). I have had these personally and despite being told it was
bacteria herx from your staff, I stated clearly that it was hormonal
and yet I was dismissed. (Ignorance on their part.) I shouted Adrenal
Hormones at that. You and your staff are telling people on a regular
basis that light will cause a bacteria herx. Thus avoid the light. This
might well be so in one sub set of people but clearly with me and at
least one other person who has experienced the exact same effect with
the sun and then resolved with cortisone you were all clearly
incorrect. (We were on the brink of crisis not having a little herx). I
am yet to see you site a paper that shows how slow growing bacteria can
affect the heart in such a dramatic that after such short exposure to
the sun will cause an adrenal crisis or at least what some refer to as

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heart herx. Until then you would be well advised to inform your staff
about the possible interactions of the sun on those with Addison's, and
the possibility of adrenal crisis. How to spot it and what the correct
advice to give to people in such an emergency. That word is CORTISONE.

SC>People close to Addison's are at risk of having an adrenal crisis

which
Quote:
can be brought on B/C one is under stress. Benicar and ABX Cause
stress!

TM: Stress does not necessarily cause exacerbated th1 disease, as

exacerbated th1 disease decreases the stress threshold. The interaction
is not as simple as you have stated it

SC: Nonsense it is. While Benicar and the TH1 modulation helps reduce
stress, but the abx cause havoc, and Benicar increases all this.
(Increasing the strength of the abx is commonly claimed in the MP
Papers).

SC>I am not advocating people take cortisone for inflammation. I never

did
Quote:
myself and never would. I know even just by being an electronic
designer that is a stupid solution to a problem. I AM saying that if
one is close to Addison's and they do Benicar and abx then they need
to
be warned that they may suffer an Addison's crisis and in that event
should take CORTISONE.

TM: No, in fact Th1 patients need to wean off cortisone before starting
antibiotics. Sometimes they need to start Benicar before fully weaned,
as the weaning process itself is too painful otherwise

SC: You seem to be ignoring my point. People taking cortisone as an

anti-inflammatory might well need to reduce their doses before the
benicar will work. But I am not talking about these people. I am
talking about people who have Addison's who produce little or no
Cortisol and Aldesterone by themselves. If they reduce their cortisone
they will most likely have a crisis and possibly WILL DIE. I´m NOT
TALKING about all the millions who are pumped Cortisone because the
Doctors no nothing about TH1 diseases.

I have had more than my fair share of Herxing. Doing 1.5G Cipro per day
while in full swing bacteria heaven for 6 weeks teaches one about the
art of perseverance. I know what a herx is believe me. I get them in my
prostate and left eye. The shit going on in my head, and heart was
hormonal. Now I can prove was caused by ACTH levels 10 times the norm.
I now know this is caused because of Addison's. If you were not so
obsessed with this hatred you have for cortisone (Which I know has been

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a daft solution for many years) then you might have been able to help
me when I started explaining the crisis I was having. As it is I´m
really annoyed at you and your staff because I have now had 5 adrenal
crises, and one is clearly enough to kill anyone. You and your staff
have had every opportunity from the very first one, when I posted what
happened to alarm me of the potential threat. Yet you ALL said little
more than avoid the sun and take more Benicar.

YOU and your STAFF CLEARLY OWE ME AN APOLOGY.

YOU and your staff need to wake up to the Addison's connection before
someone dies.

I want to ensure this does not happen to anyone else. With or without
your help I will do what I can. I am sorry you are unable to listen to
others. I still appreciate your efforts, I know what difficult job you
have burdened yourself with but your ignorance and dismissal of others
and me is unforgivable to me at this point.

TM: Steve, Please be assured that none the 30+ physicians on

MarshallProtocol.com, nor the moderators (including the RNs) have
indicated any concerns such as you are expressing. There is a way to
beat CFS, but it involves total objectivity, and the collective
experiences of more than one individual.

SC: What on earth does that have to do with Addison's and ARBs? I bet
you one thing, none of them have the faintest idea what it is like to
have an adrenal crisis. TAKE IT FROM ME it´s like the worst feeling you
can ever imagine!

SC>Benicar / Abx (or the Herx as a result) depletes adrenal reserves.

TM: That is a non-sequitur. There is no evidence to support this

statement, and the hormonal cascade based on 1,25-D normalization would
indicate it is incorrect on its face

SC: I have only just started the search to show that some drugs will
increase the need for extra cortisone and Aldesterone in people with
Addison´s. Here is something that looks like it could hold some
indications that should be considered.

"role of the renin-angiotensin system for the maintenance of blood

pressure in the state of adrenal insufficiency."..............

Nippon Naibunpi Gakkai Zasshi. 1978 Nov 20;54(11):1262-70.

[A study on the pathophysiology and diagnosis of adrenocortical

insufficiency using angiotensin II blocker (author's transl)]

[Article in Japanese]

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Ogihara T, Hata T, Maruyama A, Nakamaru M, Mikami H, Mandai T,

Kumahara Y.

Angiotensin II analogue (AIIA), 1-sarcosine, 8-isoleucine angiotensin

II (Sar1, Ile8-AII), was given in a graded dose to patients with
adrenal hypofunction of various etiologies, and the blood pressure
response to AIIA was observed to investigate the role of the renin-
angiotensin system for the maintenance of blood pressure in the state
of adrenal insufficiency. An agonistic pressor response to AIIA was
observed in the control subjects without adrenal hypofunction. In
contrast with this, patients with Addison's disease showed a blood
pressure fall to AIIA.
When the test was repeated on the same patients after
hydrocortisone replacement, these patients showed a neutral or
pressor response. Three patients with adrenalectomy and
hydrocortisone replacement showed a pressor response to AIIA in a
supine position. When these patients were tilted, fall in blood
pressure to AIIA was observed in two of them who had been on a
regular diet, whereas one patient who had been on a high sodium diet
showed no fall in blood pressure with this procedure.

We concluded that the renin-angiotensin system plays an important

role in the maintenance of normal or subnormal blood pressure in
Addison's disease and in the postural change of adrenalectomized
patients on hydrocortisone and regular salt intake. The response of
blood pressure to AIIA may be a clue for the diagnosis of Addison's
disease and the evaluation of the adequacy of replacement therapy
with regard to these patients.

PMID: 720700 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

TM: Proof?
You have just sent me a paper. The (ancient) opinions of a group of
researchers. Science has advanced a lot since this group produced these
postulates. Such an abstract does not offer proof, I am afraid. If it
did, then anybody with an Internet connection could immediately solve
all the diseases which currently afflict humanity.

TM: Detailed response. The paper is old, before we understood anything

about 1,25-D and the real complexity of the endocrine system.
Additionally, the hypotheses advanced by those investigators (to
explain their observations) were incorrect.

For example, I participated in the landmark work on pulsatile delivery

of Gonadotrophin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) after this paper was
published, and our work (20 years ago) was still only just starting to
unlock the complexities of the endocrine system.

ARBs weren't even discovered when that paper was written. They are
taking about angiotensin

SC: I cannot understand the basis of your points.

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Its an old paper so what?

before you knew about 125D, so what?
What did they get wrong. As I see it they are warning of the use of
angiotensin 2 blockers (which is what Benicar is) in people who have
insufficient Cortisol (Addison's). What they seem to suggest is that
people who were taking cortisol, avoided the problem of potential
adrenal crisis. What is wrong here. Seems like it holds some logic to
me at least.

SC: I am sure that I will be able to find further evidence suggesting

that benicar + abx (even by way of herx alone), will increase ones need
for Cortisol and Aldesterone. I am sure it will not take to long, and
appears to even a layperson such as myself that it would be the logical
result of such stress. (If not directly potentated by the ARB directly,
which is not the basis of my claim), My claim has always been the based
on the increased herx of using ARBs and ABXs. Not to mention other
factors such as loss of sleep, some face while on MP.

END OF Q & A.

I remain convinced at this time despite the previous Q & A with TM that
for people who are borderline suffering with Addison´s or at least
adrenal fatigue, and who then go on to attempt to use Benicar or other
ARBs along with ABX, who then find that they are suffering with
extremely low blood pressure should in effect have there Cortisol
levels and more importantly their ACTH checked ASAP, to ensure that
they are not at risk of having an adrenal crisis. I forewarn others
reading this that the lead-time for an ACTH test can be up to 10 days.
Which is of little help in a crisis. Not to mention the added time it
can take to arrange such a test. My 8h Cortisol test did not indicate a
problem. These I understand are notoriously unreliable.

I feel the sensible way to advance for those considering using ARBs
such as Benicar and ABX, is to before commencing treatment to try and
arrange an ACTH stimulation test.(Not the same as an ACTH test.) These
are quite expensive and difficult to arrange. But this is the only test
that would conclusively indicate the function of the adrenal glands
properly.

More over in the unlikely event of crisis ensure that you get a doctor
to give you Hydrocortisone injection or tablets if not so serious, and
something to calm you down. Else you will experience a fate
indescribable.

I hope this effort goes some way to ensuring that others are able to
avoid my own fate, and that further the people at the
MarshallProtocol.com site are able to recognize this problem for the
seriousness that their dismissal entails and discontinue to ridicule
those that are complaining of these symptoms by fogging them off as
bacteria herxs that are rather strongly suggest adrenal weakness at the
least but more seriously adrenal crisis and imminent Addison´s.

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Despite my own problems and unfortunate expeirence with the people at

the MP. I remain convinced that TM has discovered a huge breakthrough
in the understanding of these mystery illnesses that plague us so.
Having used Benicar at high dose for 3 months I personally was able to
rid some unwanted and hard to reach pathogens. I do think it holds
merit. But I also do have grave personal doubts about ignoring these
aspects, which could be avoided easily by screening them prior
treatment and ensuring they had the necessary adrenal reserves to
continue the treatment to the point of good health.

Sincerely

Back to top

Rita Stanley Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:53 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

Ok. Can you explain some things to me about this Marshall Protocol?

First off, are you being experimented upon in a clinical trial or some sort
of legitimate study? If so where is it? How did this guy get to do all
this?

Are patients being recruited for this study on the internet? Are patients
being sent to doctors of some sort to obtain this experimental treatment?
Are they paying for their experimental treatment? Are there doctors out
there who are putting naive patients on this protocol or do patients have to
request it?

If this is some sort of experiment, then I would guess this would be written
up for publication somewhere. But then, I would guess that the study would
be done properly and would include those patients who drop out for whatever
reasons, and that is usually that they have bad reactions. Oh, and there is
the matter of controls and blinding and stuff like that...............

I am just wondering how all this stuff got started and what is going on.

I also have heard (unofficially, but from a smart source) that about 1/3 of
those who try this protocol have adverse enough reactions such that they
drop out, 1/3 see no real change, and the rest are 'better' but for who
knows how long. I, of course, will be happy to stand corrected if someone
can get actual results. Oh, and those that don't do so hot are usually
dubbed Lyme patients, but I have no idea how they were diagnosed as such.
Also, I would like to see actual data, and not just reports back from docs
and patients.

I encourage you and others to post here or elsewhere about your adverse
situations. I know that on many moderated places, you will be censored or
damned. Here you might be damned a bit, but there are others who will work
to let you at least voice your concerns. We always have those who push all
sorts of treatment schemes, but most who have had bad experiences or
question any of it don't say much for fear of being put down or
marginalized.

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BTW I personally would be very concerned about low blood pressure and other
adverse reactions by these drugs. I am ALWAYS concerned about ANY adverse
reactions of drugs. Explaining away a patient's experience--and doing so in
a condescending and paternalistic way--is anathema to what doctoring is
supposed to be about and certainly, for someone who is doing research of
some sort, only makes one's work suspect if only for placing one's
hypothesis and ego a little to high on the importance shelf.

Remember that the third leading cause of death in the US is iatrogenic

(doctor induced), and that that most of those are due to prescribed drugs
used correctly. Think about the perils of using drugs experimentally.

Rita

<colourbleu@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1106835074.075785.225230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Despite numerous debates with TM and other board staff at the Marshall
Protocol site,
It is patently clear that 'they' are continuing to dismiss all possible

risks or any connection between the use of ARBs and the serious
symptoms that some people are complaining about: serious low blood
pressure, adrenal crisis, some describe 'heart herxs'.

Having experienced all of the above myself and nearly died because of
repeated Addison's crisis, and now having spoken to others who are
using Benicar who have also been having similar serious problems, I
have decided to take it upon my self to warn others of the potential
serious risks of having adrenal insufficiency / Addison's, and further
what to do if a crisis does occur while using ARBs and Antibiotics.

The following link is of a debate between myself and Trevor Marshall. I

would hope that this will go some way towards avoiding the fate I
suffered happening to anyone else, and further that the official board
staff at the MP.com site are sensible enough to acknowledge the
potential dangers and in future adequately warn people who may
experience such problems.

http://creatocracy.org

Steven Carroll

Osseo-Tip Bone Grafter Dental Implants New York

Collect Bone while drilling No waste of Natural teeth restored and missing teeth
autogenous bone replaced by a specialist
Ads by Google

Back to top

a_weisman@yahoo.com Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

Rita Stanley wrote:

Quote:
Ok. Can you explain some things to me about this Marshall Protocol?

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One thing: Trevor Marshall is a PhD

He is NOT a medical doctor/

He should be arrested and prosecuted and put in jail for practicing

medicine without a license.

Further: there is no IND for this use of benicar. That is another

violation of the law.

Of course Lymeland is all aboard this bandwagon/train even though it

was never on the tracks and has derailed anyhow.

Quote:
First off, are you being experimented upon in a clinical trial or
some sort
of legitimate study? If so where is it? How did this guy get to do
all
this?

There is no IND, no legitimate anything.

People are being charged to be guinea pigs. All of this violates every
principle of ethics in medicine and scientific trials on humans.

Quote:
Are patients being recruited for this study on the internet? Are
patients
being sent to doctors of some sort to obtain this experimental
treatment?
Are they paying for their experimental treatment? Are there doctors
out
there who are putting naive patients on this protocol or do patients
have to
request it?

If this is some sort of experiment, then I would guess this would be

written
up for publication somewhere. But then, I would guess that the study
would
be done properly and would include those patients who drop out for
whatever
reasons, and that is usually that they have bad reactions. Oh, and
there is
the matter of controls and blinding and stuff like
that...............

IF it were a proper clinical trial there would be an IND from the FDA
for this use.

Of course there is not.

This is almost as bad as Ritchie Shoemaker and questran and almost as

bad as Nich Bachynsky and ICHT.

Not quite as bad as Bachynksy but similar in many ways other than the

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lethality.

Quote:
I am just wondering how all this stuff got started and what is going
on.

Desperate people.

Quote:
I also have heard (unofficially, but from a smart source) that about
1/3 of
those who try this protocol have adverse enough reactions such that
they
drop out, 1/3 see no real change, and the rest are 'better' but for
who
knows how long. I, of course, will be happy to stand corrected if
someone
can get actual results. Oh, and those that don't do so hot are
usually
dubbed Lyme patients, but I have no idea how they were diagnosed as
such.
Also, I would like to see actual data, and not just reports back from
docs
and patients.

YOu can't trust "data" provided in unofficial inevitably self serving

"studies"--remember shoemaker claims "data" and so did Bachynsky.

Quote:
I encourage you and others to post here or elsewhere about your
adverse
situations. I know that on many moderated places, you will be
censored or
damned. Here you might be damned a bit, but there are others who will
work
to let you at least voice your concerns. We always have those who
push all
sorts of treatment schemes, but most who have had bad experiences or
question any of it don't say much for fear of being put down or
marginalized.

This is the oNLY place they can post.

Other than their own websites.

Quote:

BTW I personally would be very concerned about low blood pressure and
other
adverse reactions by these drugs. I am ALWAYS concerned about ANY
adverse
reactions of drugs. Explaining away a patient's experience--and doing
so in
a condescending and paternalistic way--is anathema to what doctoring
is
supposed to be about and certainly, for someone who is doing research
of
some sort, only makes one's work suspect if only for placing one's
hypothesis and ego a little to high on the importance shelf.

Remember that the third leading cause of death in the US is

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0.25

iatrogenic
(doctor induced), and that that most of those are due to prescribed
drugs
used correctly. Think about the perils of using drugs experimentally.

Rita

colourbleu@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1106835074.075785.225230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Despite numerous debates with TM and other board staff at the

Marshall
Protocol site,
It is patently clear that 'they' are continuing to dismiss all
possible

risks or any connection between the use of ARBs and the serious
symptoms that some people are complaining about: serious low blood
pressure, adrenal crisis, some describe 'heart herxs'.

Having experienced all of the above myself and nearly died because
of
repeated Addison's crisis, and now having spoken to others who are
using Benicar who have also been having similar serious problems, I
have decided to take it upon my self to warn others of the
potential
serious risks of having adrenal insufficiency / Addison's, and
further
what to do if a crisis does occur while using ARBs and Antibiotics.

The following link is of a debate between myself and Trevor

Marshall. I

would hope that this will go some way towards avoiding the fate I
suffered happening to anyone else, and further that the official
board
staff at the MP.com site are sensible enough to acknowledge the
potential dangers and in future adequately warn people who may
experience such problems.

http://creatocracy.org

Steven Carroll

Back to top

Rita Stanley Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

<a_weisman@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1107045761.247676.302600@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Rita Stanley wrote:

Ok. Can you explain some things to me about this Marshall Protocol?

One thing: Trevor Marshall is a PhD

He is NOT a medical doctor/

Yes, I know that.

He seems to have recruited MD's for this 'study' to do the wet work then?
He seems to have distanced himself from an MD role, yet somehow he uses MD's
to do the 'study', is that correct?

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0.25

Quote:

He should be arrested and prosecuted and put in jail for practicing

medicine without a license.

Further: there is no IND for this use of benicar. That is another

violation of the law.

So what would someone have to do to have this investigated?

What can the patients who feel they may have been harmed do?

What practical steps can be taken?

I am guessing that the attending physicians ('llmds') who write out the
'scripts would be first in line for trouble, and that won't set well with
these patients for fear they will lose their docs.

Quote:

Of course Lymeland is all aboard this bandwagon/train even though it

was never on the tracks and has derailed anyhow.

Oh, I know that well.

Of course, that is the Lymeland that is vocal about anyone questioning

anything that a 'llmd' does.

But I hear from so many patients who 'want a llmd who does the Marshall
protocol', so this seems to be marketed well. It seems to be right up there
with cat's claw in acceptance.

Quote:

First off, are you being experimented upon in a clinical trial or

some sort
of legitimate study? If so where is it? How did this guy get to do
all
this?

There is no IND, no legitimate anything.

People are being charged to be guinea pigs. All of this violates every
principle of ethics in medicine and scientific trials on humans.

So there is no infomed consent, and this really is no legitimate research

then. Never thought it was, but wanted to make sure.

This appears to be an experimental bandwagon then that desperate Lyme

patients have been recruited for to substantiate someone's hypothesis.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

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Quote:

IF it were a proper clinical trial there would be an IND from the FDA
for this use.

Of course there is not.

This is almost as bad as Ritchie Shoemaker and questran and almost as

bad as Nich Bachynsky and ICHT.

Not quite as bad as Bachynksy but similar in many ways other than the
lethality.

But it is a matter of degree isn't it? Or luck in that no one has died at
this point in time. If one uses drugs on desperately ill patients with
plain contraindications to use of such medicines, then what might one
surmise will happen at some point?

Quote:

I am just wondering how all this stuff got started and what is going
on.

Desperate people.

Of course, the desperate patients in Lymeland are there to be tapped. That

is very obvious now, and it is beyond deplorable what is going on. But it
goes beyond that. One can only tap the desperate easily when what they are
being used for is legitimized by Lymeland if it is only by not allowing
dissent, discussion, and holding all of these "researchers' " feet to the
fire.

The ball is ALWAYS in the court of anyone who wants to use, test, try out,
any hypothesis on patients. Damning or censoring anyone who asks ANY
legitimate question is an ethical ruin.

Quote:

YOu can't trust "data" provided in unofficial inevitably self serving

"studies"--remember shoemaker claims "data" and so did Bachynsky.

I don't. I wouldn't trust one morsel. Doesn't pass the first round of the
smell test.

I do listen, however,to the stories I hear from patients. If they feel they
are harmed, then they very might well be, and these claims should always be
treated seriously. I find trying to silence these people unconscionable.

.. >
Quote:
This is the oNLY place they can post.

Other than their own websites.

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I know. How truly unfortunate. How much damage is done to patients from this
practice of censorship?

Any monitored group that disallows argument, discussion, questioning,

HOLDING THESE RESEARCHERS FEET TO THE FIRE especially when patients are led
to--encouraged to--be in these types of studies is contemptable.

Final question: is this going to be presented at some conference? And just

who is going to back it?

Rita

Quote:

colourbleu@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1106835074.075785.225230@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Despite numerous debates with TM and other board staff at the

Marshall
Protocol site,
It is patently clear that 'they' are continuing to dismiss all
possible

risks or any connection between the use of ARBs and the serious
symptoms that some people are complaining about: serious low blood
pressure, adrenal crisis, some describe 'heart herxs'.

Having experienced all of the above myself and nearly died because
of
repeated Addison's crisis, and now having spoken to others who are
using Benicar who have also been having similar serious problems, I
have decided to take it upon my self to warn others of the
potential
serious risks of having adrenal insufficiency / Addison's, and
further
what to do if a crisis does occur while using ARBs and Antibiotics.

The following link is of a debate between myself and Trevor

Marshall. I

would hope that this will go some way towards avoiding the fate I
suffered happening to anyone else, and further that the official
board
staff at the MP.com site are sensible enough to acknowledge the
potential dangers and in future adequately warn people who may
experience such problems.

http://creatocracy.org

Steven Carroll

Back to top

zipzip Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

Rita Stanley wrote:

Quote:

But it is a matter of degree isn't it? Or luck in that no one has

died at
this point in time. If one uses drugs on desperately ill patients
with

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0.25

plain contraindications to use of such medicines, then what might one

surmise will happen at some point?

nothing?

i mean this happens with LLMD's using nothing more than antibiotics as
well. it's a fine, gray, ambigous line. unfortunately.

Quote:
Of course, the desperate patients in Lymeland are there to be tapped.
That
is very obvious now, and it is beyond deplorable what is going on.
But it
goes beyond that. One can only tap the desperate easily when what
they are
being used for is legitimized by Lymeland if it is only by not
allowing
dissent, discussion, and holding all of these "researchers' " feet to
the
fire.

like the OHM conference. now even klinghardt is gaining some

"credibility".

Quote:
Final question: is this going to be presented at some conference? And
just
who is going to back it?

it has already been presented at a few conferences.... marshall is

making the rounds and the "soft sell'.

Back to top

Rita Stanley Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

"zipzip" <mcpucho@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1107064557.069790.42710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

Rita Stanley wrote:

But it is a matter of degree isn't it? Or luck in that no one has

died at
this point in time. If one uses drugs on desperately ill patients
with
plain contraindications to use of such medicines, then what might one

surmise will happen at some point?

nothing?

Nothing happens all the time. I am talking about the negative impacts of
stuff like this. Of course, any adverse reactions are always blamed on that
wonderful catchall, the 'herx'. And, of course, the disease process.

Forget about doing no harm.

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0.25

Quote:

i mean this happens with LLMD's using nothing more than antibiotics as
well. it's a fine, gray, ambigous line. unfortunately.

There are rational apporaches, and then there are these confounding (if you
can't convince 'em, confuse 'em) hypotheses that are pushed at naive hurting
patients and at practitioners who are just as naive.

Quote:

like the OHM conference. now even klinghardt is gaining some

"credibility".

And Klinghardt's reputation will rub off on those rubbing shoulders with
him. I don't believe that enhances real credibility one bit where it
actually counts, and that is in the real medical arena.

What's the adage about lying down with dogs? The fleas go both ways as
well. So while Klinghardt and his ilk enhance their "credibility" (I read
that as being able to suck in more patients and being embraced in passive
fashion by non-IDSA Lymeland), his and the silver boys, cat claw cult, salt
cure scams, etc etc drag down the real credibility and acceptance in the
medical establishment.

Everyone wants to use the patients, and they end up paying in more ways than
one. They are sucked into all of this.

Quote:

Final question: is this going to be presented at some conference? And

just
who is going to back it?

it has already been presented at a few conferences.... marshall is

making the rounds and the "soft sell'.

What conferences? Who is letting this guy in?

So, I would guess that open arms await him. I would also guess little if any
challenge is made. And I would also guess that he would use support groups
and their leaders to recruit patients and these conferences (where ever they
may be) to recruit the treating doctors.

Just guessing.

I know as a support group leader (I am retired now) that I was often

approached to push somebody's , some organization's , some company's stuff,
or for them to use the mailing list or try and collect money for some lyme
cause. Nope. I wasn't gonna push anything from labs to Lymerix to channeling

0.25
0.25

patients to vitamin mills to recommending any doctors.

Rita

Back to top

brent Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:18:05 -0800, "Rita Stanley"

<rlstanleyNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:
silver boys

Can I ask you a question does silver work in-vitro against Bb?
Just wondering.

Back to top

Rita Stanley Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

I do believe that chlorox, draino, asphalt, gravel, Spam, Fritos, toe nail
crud, and plain old leave 'em out in the open (except if you believe that
wonderous belief that Bb is transmitted via doorknobs and pens) would work
in vitro as well. I certainly may be wrong, and will stand
corrected........Might be a little hard getting that MIC, but, hey why
bother- that is way too technical. People seem to buy any results of stuff
tossed in a dish and then it is Legitimate! There is that little problem of
toxicity to the organism with all these things, but that doesn't seem to
bother you. I mean you could use the argument that if you can eat Spam, then
it probably won't hurt if you mainline it.

Then again, no real studies have been done on these wonders; they don't have
the panache you seem to find in silver, so you gotta be clever. Why not
jump right in to an in vivo study? Work around the legalities. I do believe
that you could label some hungry someone a 'llmd', set up a web site (you
might want to try that), say it is a "healing Oasis - no argument allowed -
, recruit from SG's, go to conferences, and there you go! Fame, glory,
ego-gratifying, and you GET the patients to PAY the way. No informed consent
needed.

Oh, and if a substance is illegal to use in the USA, you could do the old
country hop thing like Bachnysky. Run from country to country and do your
experiments, but- now here's the catch-grab the bucks BEFORE you dose your
'patients" - seems you don't even even need a valid medical license if you
are sift, clever and enabled by Lymeland. But, I am afraid, Brent, that you
must do better at your marketing skills if you want to push your silver.
Running amuck like you have done here only drives people away from what you
want to convince people of. Take Marketing 101 or watch how the semi-pros do
it in Lymeland.

Really. Yelling too much simply backfires, and people also see your behavior

0.25
0.25

and fear that if they take what you did/do they might just turn out the
same. Perhaps then that might be OK, too, and they could assist you in your
mission.

So the field is wide open for any of your ideas, and Lymeland is full of
takers.

And don't forget the salt cure. Goes to show you that you got a really
desperate bunch who will down a package of Morton's because of some website
full of whack. But salt is intrinsically dull, and shiny and bright has that
mistique and allure.

Oh, and purge 'em beforehand with the Sputnik. I hear that works wonders.

Enjoy!

Rita

"brent" <borgersbrent@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:u26qv0t8nclfu8a22il8sum7j67n7vlq2e@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:18:05 -0800, "Rita Stanley"
rlstanleyNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:

silver boys

Can I ask you a question does silver work in-vitro against Bb?
Just wondering.

Back to top

brent Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:26:36 -0800, "Rita Stanley"

<rlstanleyNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:

Quote:
I do believe that chlorox, draino, asphalt, gravel, Spam, Fritos

Yes but they are toxic to human.

You are not silver literate so you may want to shut it until you are.

Back to top

a_weisman@yahoo.com Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Marshall Protocol ARBs Herxs Addison's Risks
Guest

brent wrote:
Quote:

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 11:26:36 -0800, "Rita Stanley"

rlstanleyNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:

I do believe that chlorox, draino, asphalt, gravel, Spam, Fritos

0.25
0.25

Yes but they are toxic to human.

J Wound Care. 2004 Apr;13(4):154-5. Related Articles, Links

Colloidal silver as an antimicrobial agent: fact or fiction?

van Hasselt P, Gashe BA, Ahmad J.

Ear Clinic, Bamalete Lutheran Hospital, Ramotswa, Botswana.

pvhass...@planet.nl

OBJECTIVE: Colloidal silver preparations are marketed on the internet

as omnipotent antimicrobial agents, but scientific support for these

claims is lacking. This study reports the results of in vitro tests
of
colloidal silver's antimicrobial activity against several pathogenic
or
non-pathogenic microorganisms. METHOD: Three samples of colloidal
silver were tested: one available commercially on the internet
(silver
concentration of 22 ppm) and two samples (concentrations of 403 and
413
ppm) which were prepared in our laboratory using standard chemical
methods. RESULTS: In an agar-well diffusion assay none of the three
colloidal silver solutions had any effect on the growth of the test
organisms. All tested bacterial strains were sensitive to
ciprofloxacin. Colloidal silver 22 ppm showed no bactericidal
activity
in phenol coefficient tests. CONCLUSION: As the tested colloidal
silver
solutions did not show any antimicrobial effect in vitro on the
microorganisms, claims of colloidal silver's antimicrobial potency
are
misleading and there is no place for it as an antiseptic.

Publication Types:
Evaluation Studies

PMID: 15114827 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------Neurology.

2004 Apr 27;62(8):1408-10. Related Articles, Links

Myoclonic status epilepticus following repeated oral ingestion of

0.25
0.25

colloidal silver.

Mirsattari SM, Hammond RR, Sharpe MD, Leung FY, Young GB.

Department of Clinical Neurological Sciences, University of Western

Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada.

The authors report a case of a 71-year-old man who developed

myoclonic
status epilepticus and coma after daily ingestion of colloidal silver

for 4 months resulting in high levels of silver in plasma,

erythrocytes, and CSF. Despite plasmapheresis, he remained in a
persistent vegetative state until his death 5.5 months later. Silver
products can cause irreversible neurologic toxicity associated with
poor outcome.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 15111684 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Int J Dermatol. 2003 Jul;42(7):549. Related Articles, Links

Argyria associated with colloidal silver supplementation.

McKenna JK, Hull CM, Zone JJ.

Department of Dermatology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT

84132, USA.

A 65-year-old male presented for skin examination and was

incidentally
noted to have discoloration of the fingernails. These findings were
completely asymptomatic. The patient had been taking colloidal silver

supplementation (Silverzone 140 ppm silver Gifts of Nature, St.

George,
UT, USA) for 2 years as therapy for diabetes. He first noticed the
onset of nail discoloration 1 year ago. His past medical history
included type II diabetes and hypertension. His current medications

0.25
0.25

were metformin, glyburide, and benazepril. Physical examination

revealed slate-gray discoloration involving the lunulae of the
fingernails (Fig. 1). The skin, mucous membranes, and sclerae were
unaffected.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 12839605 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------Clin

Exp Dermatol. 2003 May;28(3):254-6. Related Articles, Links

Severe generalized argyria secondary to ingestion of colloidal silver

protein.

White JM, Powell AM, Brady K, Russell-Jones R.

Department of Dermatology, Ealing Hospital, London, UK.

jonathanmlwh...@hotmail.com

Argyria is a rare cause of cutaneous discolouration caused by silver

deposition. We report a case of dramatic and diffuse argyria
secondary
to ingestion of colloidal silver protein over a 1-year period.
Stained
electron microscopy with spectral analysis was used to confirm the
clinical diagnosis. Silver-protein complexes are deposited in the
skin
and reduced to inert silver salts by sunlight in a process similar to

that harnessed in photography. Our patient had obtained the silver

for
consumption via mail order. It had been advertised as a cure for a
variety of diseases. Colloidal silver protein is commercially
available
as a 'food supplement', hence circumventing the strict controls
placed
on medicines.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

0.25
0.25

PMID: 12780705 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------J
Wound Care. 2003 Mar;12(3):120. Related Articles, Links

Controversies over colloidal silver.

Lansdown AB.

Publication Types:
Letter

PMID: 12677875 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cutis. 2000 Nov;66(5):373-4. Related Articles, Links

Argyria following the use of dietary supplements containing colloidal

silver protein.

Gulbranson SH, Hud JA, Hansen RC.

Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center, Phoenix, Arizona 85006, USA.

The onset of argyria following the use of dietary supplements

containing colloidal silver protein is presented. The patient was
using
a silver-containing product for cold and allergy prophylaxis. We
review
the past and present medicinal roles of silver and include a
differential diagnosis for argyria. The hyperpigmentation of argyria
is
usually permanent, and it follows a sun-exposed distribution. This
case
report highlights the potential for toxicity following the use of
dietary supplements and demonstrates the importance of physician
inquiry regarding alternative medicines. Finally, we examine the
limited role of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in regulating
alternative medicines marketed as dietary supplements.

0.25
0.25

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 11107524 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Fed Regist. 1999 Aug 17;64(158):44653-8. Related Articles, Links

Over-the-counter drug products containing colloidal silver

ingredients
or silver salts. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS),
Public
Health Service (PHS), Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Final rule.

[No authors listed]

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is issuing a final rule

establishing that all over-the-counter (OTC) drug products containing

colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts for internal or external

use are not generally recognized as safe and effective and are
misbranded. FDA is issuing this final rule because many OTC drug
products containing colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts are
being marketed for numerous serious disease conditions and FDA is not

aware of any substantial scientific evidence that supports the use of

OTC colloidal silver ingredients or silver salts for these disease

conditions.

PMID: 10558603 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

J Toxicol Clin Toxicol. 1996;34(1):119-26. Related Articles, Links

Silver products for medical indications: risk-benefit assessment.

0.25
0.25

Fung MC, Bowen DL.

Center of Drug Evaluation and Research, Food and Drug Administration,

Rockville, Maryland, USA.

BACKGROUND: Legitimate medicinal use of silver-containing products

has
dramatically diminished over the last several decades. Recently,
however, some manufacturers have begun to enthusiastically promote
oral
colloidal silver proteins as mineral supplements and for prevention
and
treatment of many diseases. Indiscriminate use of silver products can

lead to toxicity such as argyria. OBJECTIVE: To assist health care

professionals in a risk versus benefit assessment of over-the-counter

silver-containing products, we herein examine the following issues:

historical uses, chemistry, pharmacology, clinical toxicology, case
reports of adverse events in the literature, and the recent promotion

of over-the-counter silver products. Other sources of silver exposure

(including environmental and dietary) and EPA exposure standards are

discussed. A list of currently available silver products is provided
for easy reference and screening. CONCLUSIONS: We emphasize the lack
of
established effectiveness and potential toxicity of these products.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 8632503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-------------------------------------------------------------------

JAMA. 1995 Oct 18;274(15):1196-7. Related Articles, Links

Colloidal silver proteins marketed as health supplements.

Fung MC, Weintraub M, Bowen DL.

0.25
0.25

Publication Types:
Letter

PMID: 7563503 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
You are not silver literate so you may want to shut it until you are.
You're not literate period so shut it until you are.

Back to top

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