ALL CONVERTING RELIGIONS ARE

DANGEROUS
All converting religions are dangerous: Swami Dayananda Saraswati
'Missionaries are the most violent people'
T R JAWAHAR

A religious teacher of supreme wisdom, Swami Dayananda Saraswati is also extremely articulate,
a combination that is very rare, given the stereotype of a Hindu protagonist that often raises the
hackles of the 'intellectuals'.

His superb command over the White man's tongue is backed by phenomenal knowledge of not
only the Vedas, Vedantas, Upanishads, Gita et al but also the religious texts and practices of
other faiths, not to speak of modern literature. In a way he is the ideal foil for those at the other
end of the ideological spectrum, namely,

Communists, atheists, JNU historians and lest I forget, 'other miscellaneous secularists': He is
one who could be more than a match to them, word for word and in wits.

And he does not have the habit of mincing words either, as the reader will observe from his
explicit, extensive, exclusive interview to News Today on a wide range of topics, past, present
and future ...and even the eternal.

For a moment, the journalistic impulse of brevity the penchant for wielding the scissors overcame
me. But on second thoughts, thankfully, I decided that the verbatim account should be presented
to the readers, even if it meant carrying it over for more than one day.

Now, over to Swami Dayananda Saraswati:

Q: You have come out strongly against the Pope's statements on the anti-forcible conversions
laws. You have also been a campaigner against conversions, terming it as violence. Can you
elaborate?
Ans: Okay. What is violence? When you physically hurt me it is violence. When you do anything
that can instigate physical violence, that is an act of violence, too. And if you can hurt me
emotionally it is also violence. If you can hurt me spiritually that is the worst violence, rank
violence. All these are there in conversion because it leads to physical violence. When you
convert somebody you have to criticise the person's religion, his worship, his culture; all these
hurt. Even when he changes it hurts. How will he change? He has to disown his parents, and
their wisdom and their culture, his ancestors, and entire community; you are isolating him,
uprooting him and all the uprooted people are emotionally unsettled. For instance, Blacks in
America are uprooted people. Even after generations they are not emotionally settled. It will never
help the persons who are uprooted from their culture. So it is great violence against culture,
tradition etc.

Q: Is the religious person, then, the core person?

Ans: Yes, we find some people die for their religion because in their scripture it is told that if your
religion is in danger then you will have to sacrifice your life so that you will also have a better
place in paradise. The fellow begins to believe that and he is ready to give up his life. This is
indoctrination. So, for their religion's sake, they have double standards. One who does not believe
in their religion is anti-god as if God has given only their religion to follow. If he does not follow
that he is an enemy to God, an infidel and deserves to be killed. Though God any way is going to
destroy him, but if you destroy him, God will be pleased that you have proved your faith. This is
the double standard. The values are not common. For followers one set of values, for non-
followers another set of values. Killing gets a sanction. That is why these are all dangerous
religions. And I say all converting religions are dangerous. They have created problems. It is like
somebody wanting freedom to destroy me. If I do not give this freedom, I become a
fundamentalist. But if I give them the freedom to destroy me, then I am a liberal, my religion a free
religion. That's it. Now this very concept of freedom itself has to be questioned, examined and
told to the people.

Q: And to the Pope?

Ans: Not only Pope. Pope told this because they have got away with it for 2,000 years in the
name of freedom of Religion. They have wiped out continents, cultures in various continents,
religions in countries ... where are those religions and cultures that built those pyramids? Show
me one fellow now as a sample. Greek and Roman monuments are there, but where are the
religions? In Europe they completely wiped out all the indigenous religions. In North America and
South America they have finished off all the native cultures. Even in Africa it is almost finished.

So now in Asia they are planting their religion. They want to be successful, between these two
people they want to destroy all cultures in this world. So therefore, I say enough is enough. I don't
want to ask them to give up their (the converts) religions now.

But their concepts, their beliefs are not acceptable to me. I give them the freedom to follow what
they follow. But I want them to leave me free to follow what I believe! They cannot say
evangelising is not against other religions. It is against other religions; Conversions are against
other religions. We don't believe in conversion itself. We do not accept that, we do not do that.

Q: Then how do you deal with this problem when it is so basic? What are the practical ways?
Ans: The theologians have to change. But they will not. That is because they have enough in-built
programming. What we call indoctrination. There is no use even to make an attempt. But we
should keep talking about that to them. But there is one thing with them. They just wait for a time
when there is more freedom for them to do. So let that time be kept away. That conducive time
for them to convert be kept away. The people have to be made aware and proud of their religion
and that would take care of that in course of time. They should be able to say enough is enough.

Q: But there is the lure of money and incentives and other benefits that the naive fall for...
Ans: It is not really the money that buys. What do they do? Small things, and then they try to
tempt them. That gives the thumb space. They begin to enter the heart. Then they tell the most
unkindly cut. When the missionary tells that the fellow's daily pooja is wrong, that his altar of
prayer is not the altar, he has to alter that. That is the unkindest cut you can get. It is a stab in the
heart, where this fellow innocently gives some space for the missionary to enter. That very place
becomes a place for attack. He attacks at the heart of the person, his religious core. And
therefore the missionaries are the most violent people in the world. They have committed
violence and nobody has committed violence as they have done. They continue to do that. But
people do not realise this. They do seemingly good things in order to commit this violence.

Q: What is the effect of missionary activity on national security?

Ans: Look at the Northeast. I wonder if I can go and talk there, in my own country. They ask if I
am from India! This is what the missionaries have done. Those people are made to feel they are
non-Indians. It is very unfortunate. It is a major problem for national integrity. And not good for our
tradition. In fact, Hindu religion has to be saved for the sake of humanity because the Christians
don't believe the Muslims will go to heaven, the Muslims don't believe the Christians will go
anywhere. They both are fighting each other in trying to reach heaven or paradise. And both
believe that the other is not going there, so they will fight forever. The only person who says
paradise is not up there but here is the Hindu. Hindu is the only one who makes sense. He has
also got a methodology to teach, it is not just a belief. Only they are working on belief. We are
working on wisdom. There it is just beliefs, many of which cannot be proved and several of which
are wrong and foolish. See, a belief is above reason. When you say there is heaven it is above
reason. You can believe that. You survive death then you will go to heaven, which is also a belief.
But when you say that you will survive death, but you will go to heaven or hell, then it is difficult to
believe. And another thing they say is God is formless. But he needs a location. You cannot
define foolishness in a better way. When you believe against all the evidence then it is called
foolishness.

Q: The inequalities that have cropped up in Hinduism are used as handle against?
Ans: Even they have their own inequalities. They have their own problems that are endless. But
that doesn't give us a sanction for us to have problems. We should try and solve them. But still all
these are our problems. Brothers are fighting each other over a property and if a third fellow
comes and says, since you two are fighting let me occupy the property, that cannot be allowed.
You remain an encroacher. You can help us, but you cannot become a beneficiary of our fight.
Therefore we should resolve our own fights. You have no business interfering in our house and I
would not intrude in yours.

Indian Christians and Indian Muslims are converted from Hinduism, without themselves knowing
what they are getting into. But once converted they are told that their brethren and forefathers are
devil worshippers! This is what I say is dangerous. As Indians they have a right to know the
religions, the people and their culture and forms etc. If they know there will be no problems. But
they are purposely kept away. The clergy is responsible for that, Islamic and Christian clergy are
responsible for that.

Q: But if they want to know or even reconvert, will the Hindu 'clergy' allow that...
Ans: In India, there is no clergy. Here all are Hindus until they call themselves different because
when I allow every form of worship then where is the problem? We deem you another Hindu, only
you are saying I am this and that. There is no re-conversion. There is a prodigality and they come
back. like a prodigal son. We do not even need to baptise. We have to ask him to give up beef
that is all.

'Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi are not negotiable' Don't trample on a sentiment, warns Swami
Dayananda

T R JAWAHAR

Ayodhya. For those who skim the surface, it may be a communal issue. But it is not. It is about
India and Indianness. In how we are going to resolve it may lie the pointer where the country is
headed to. Then again, the issue is not as intractable as it is being made out. As Swami
Dayananda Saraswathi points out, in this second part of his interview, all it needs is a bit of
understanding from the 'other side'.

Apart from Ayodhya, the Swami also talks about many things that make India India.

Q: Ayodhya. Where lies the problem, and where lies the solution as you have been involved at
one point of time?
Ans: I find there is a basic denial of problem. Denial is a huge problem. Muslims are living in this
country. They have to live with the Hindus. There is no question about that there should be
harmony in society within the communities. But they should also know certain things. There have
been some wrongs done over the centuries which have also been continuing. These people are
not responsible for those wrongs, I accept that. But there are certain realities. The reality is the
people of India, particularly North, and those from South who visit Ayodhya, look upon the place
as the place of Rama. We all know Ayodhya as the place where Rama was born. For us that is
the reality. You may not accept, need not, we do not want you to accept.

Even we do not accept a lot of things. But we should not deny that that sentiment.

Rama was born there and they are not going to give up that sentiment. You cannot trample upon
a sentiment. Babri Masjid came down because of that sentiment. And a lot of things will come
down if such sentiments continue to be trampled upon. Let us not make that happen. I always
plead to the Muslim leadership, that you have to accept this Rama and Krishna are part of this
culture.

Q: Can you elaborate?

Ans: You remove Rama and Krishna and there is no Hindu culture. There is no Hindu dance,
there is no Hindu music, Rama and Krishna are predominant, they dominate everything ..music
and literature. All pervading. Our lifestyle, our walking and talking. And so Ayodhya and Mathura
are symbols of Rama and Krishna. Hindus do not want that to be disturbed in any way ...in their
mind. When they go to Krishna's place they do not want that place to be occupied by somebody.
That leaves them guilty. They feel that they have not done something, towards that Krishna. They
allowed something else to stand there. It is something like a woman feeling that there is another
woman in her husband's life. She finds things are a bit crowded (laughs).

And so too Lord Shiva in Kashi. It is everybody's dream to go to Kashi. In Gujarat they used to
say, Surat me jaman, Kashi me maran go to Surat for food, and Kashi for death. Kashi stands for
moksha.

It is mokshapuri. When I went to Kashi first, I was very disappointed. I was brought up in and
around temples in Tanjore district where even a village temple was bigger by ten times. There is
no place in Kashi. A huge mosque is standing. I see the temple and I see the mosque, imagine
how I would feel. And recently I saw something else also in Kashi the wall of the mosque. Even
Syed Naqvi has written that the wall with all the rishabas and all the sculptures, that wall has
been integrated into the mosque as one of the walls. That wall standing there is a time bomb.
Don't keep it, convert it into a temple that is the best thing. These are realities we must accept.

The Hindus must also accept the reality that the Muslims are there. Older temples were
destroyed, that is true. We know that more than two thousand temples were destroyed, there are
a lot of places where mosques have come up over that. But we cannot hold these people
responsible for all that. So we should live in harmony with these people. But these three,
Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi, are not negotiable. They have to give up.

After all, a mosque is a place where you offer prayers to Allah. In their own theology, they do not
accept the concept of worship. A Wahabi of Saudi Arabia once told me that there are only three
things that are holy in Islam, Allah, the Prophet and the Kuran. Not even Mecca and Medina.
Then I asked him what about the millions of people who go there, he said they just come.

In fact I pleaded for the holiness of those places and he pleaded against that! But holiness is a
question of people and their sentiments. Therefore, the concept of a place of worship is not there
with them. Mosque is only a place of namaz and namaz can be placed anywhere. They do not
have altars of worship, which is entirely different. They do not worship, they only offer prayers.
They can do that anywhere by just facing the direction of Mecca. In Arab hotel rooms, there is an
arrow or carpet indicating the direction of Mecca for namaz. Namaz means namaskar. But our
altar of worship is entirely different. It is consecrated. Once it is an altar of worship it is always so.
But a place of prayer is not always so, because they can pray anywhere, on the street, even on
planes. That's the big difference.

Q: In India, there has always been a gap between history and mythology. Rama and Krishna do
not figure in our history books. But they have been much believed and revered personalities. How
do you reconcile this conflict?
Ans:The concept of God is such. God need not be in history, rather all history is God. Everything
is Ishwara. God should not have history. Now, we believe in avatar. If God can create this jagat, if
he can manifest in the form of jagath, one more particular special form he can assume also, not a
big deal. For instance, when you create a dream world, you create a body for yourself also. That
is called avatara. So Rama is looked upon as an avatara. It is not just a belief but an explainable
possibility, like a new star is an explainable possibility, like a star becoming a black hole is an
explainable possibility. We can explain what avatara is all about, and in Gita, Krishna is looked
upon as an avatara. He explains himself. As an avatara. There is enough material for us to make
people understand what is God and what is an avatara. So Rama is looked upon as an avatara.
Even there, he is not for a particular job. There are avataras for particular jobs. So where there
are avataras for particular jobs then they are only altars of worship now, like Narasimha. But an
avatara where the idea is to set an example, it becomes much more, it becomes an Itihaasa, an
epic, history like. Therefore Rama is not a fictitious character from Valmiki's head.

I will just give you an argument. Take the case of Sherlock Holmes from Baker Street. Though the
settings were real, the contemporary society did not allow Holmes to pass into the next
generation as a character who lived, but only as a fictitious character. So too James Bond. Or
Harry Potter, now. But is Rama a fictitious character? No, the contemporary society did not allow
that to happen. I didn't receive Rama as a fictitious character, just as Gandhiji was not also a
fictitious character. Rama walked here, Rama lived here, Rama was born here, Krishna was born
here, he played here, this was the Yamuna ghat, this is how Rama and Krishna came down. Just
like Gandhiji. You can go and see, Sabarmati is there. Only water was not there, now thanks to
the dam, water is there. Modern children, they have not seen Gandhiji, but they have received
him from the contemporary society of Gandhiji. And generations from now, people will know
Gandhiji only as one who lived. Rama lived, Krishna lived. But Valmiki who depicted Rama was
also a kavi.

Q: ...prone to exaggeration?
Ans: No, not prone to exaggeration, but given the freedom to exaggerate, poetic licence. He is a
kavi. Ramayana is mahakavyam, born of a kavi. He is allowed to have a certain tapestry, through
words he can create.

Valmiki as the author of a mahakavya was given the freedom to create situations to portray his
emotions. These were his sentiments. Vyasa did the same thing when writing the Mahabharata.
Many people say that bhagavata language is different from Mahabharata language. But Vyasa
presents Krishna as Ishwara avatara. Very very authentic, but with poetic freedom. Like Walter
Scott novel Ivanhoe. You can find the Scottish ire against Normans, the pride of the Scottish men
even though they were ruled and humiliated by the Normans. You can also read, the Jews were
persecuted even at that time which was so well portrayed. The time was true, the places were
true, the people and society were true, the various conditions that obtained at the time of Walter
Scott were true. He was talking about contemporary society. So it is something like a kavya
based upon history. Rama was true, Sita was true, the kidnapping was true, rakshasa was true,
Lanka was true, war was true, Sita coming back was true, pattabishekam was true. And several
things were also woven into these facts. Like Kalki's Ponniyin Selvan.

Q: And so Rama's birth in Ayodhya was also true?

Ans: (laughs) And that is why they won't give up!

Q: There have been lot of developments after the discovery of the vedic Saraswati river, which
has pushed back the antiquity of the Indian civilisation besides nailing several historical canards.
Your comments.
Ans: You see, the people who colonise a country have to make sure, the natives do not have any
big nationalism, then only they can rule. To destroy nationalism you destroy the antiquity of a
nation, its roots and evidences. So the Britishers were interested in making the majority of the
people aliens in this country. It is understandable. They were aliens. So also the majority of the
people who came here several thousand years ago. But by that logic all are aliens since entire
mankind came from Africa. (laughs) Everybody is an alien everywhere except those people in
Ethiopia! This is all nonsense. So the Britishers wrote, since the Aryans are aliens why crib about
we being aliens! And it suited many people here too.The whole idea was a necessity for them, the
basis is absolutely ignorance. They themselves admit that, they were not able to read many
inscriptions. You can interpret ignorance in a hundred different ways. Why should they interpret
ignorance to the advantage of India? It should be to the advantage of those who wrote. But we
are allowing it to continue even after independence, that is wrong. You have to tell the truth and it
has to be accepted, people should have the open mind for that.

Q: But there is so much resistance for that...

Ans: That is because there are stakes. Many parties are based upon such untruths. Some of the
historians may go out of work. Communists do not like antiquity, they do not like nationalism. JNU
people will always be against any kind of roots. According to them you have to destroy
nationalism first. There is no motherland for them. In fact it is only nationalism that can really build
the country. What obtains between Himalayas and Cape Comerin? This is a unique country and
the uniqueness should be preserved. And to preserve that entire history has to be owned by the
people and its history is the most ancient. It has such profoundity which has to be recognised.
Only then will the people feel that they belong to something very rich and profound. It is
important. For one's emotional security, for emotional stability for the core person, for self-esteem
culture plays a very big role. Modern psychology has proved that. Cultural disturbance is really
the greatest form of disturbance to emotional stability and cultural uprooting is also dangerous to
emotional stability. That is why conversion is violence. So we require to trace our culture all the
way. So for them if the Saraswati river is the villain, let us own it up. We have it in books, now let's
have it in our heads and hearts.

US norms on religious freedom not acceptable: Swami Dayananda 'There is reverse

discrimination against Hindus'

T R JAWAHAR

It is a truism that sometimes it is more important how we are looked upon than how we really
look. And despite India being the most open and free country in terms of religious practices, it is
still being projected as a place where there is religious discrimination. Despite minorities here
enjoying several special privileges that are denied to the majority, they are still complaining. It is
galling. It certainly does Swami Dayananda Saraswathi, who in this third part of his interview,
talks about the reverse discrimination and other such inequities that Hindus have to endure.

Q: What is the awareness and perceptions of Hinduism outside India?

Ans: Outside, if you take Americans, they do not know anything beyond America. They do not
even know Canada. The great grouse of Canadians is that the Americans do not know enough
about them. They do not know anything about Sanskrit, about Hinduism. Bush did not know about
Vajpayee before he got elected. It was a famous, great goof-up. That is typical American.
Therefore let us not think they all know. But even those who know talk only in terms of oriental
religions Buddhism, Zen and such forms of meditation. And, of course, oriental food means
Chinese food (laughs). But those who have studied in some detail, they admire. Psychologist
Freud did not know Hindu religion, but his disciple Jung knew. He admired Hinduism. He said if
Rama can cry in the forest when he lost Sita and if still Rama could be an altar of worship, that is
why Hindu society is a sane society. He said the Hindu society legitimised sorrow, while other
religions do not do that. And therefore those who know Hindu religion appreciate the rituals, the
Ishwara concept and the scriptures. They just love it.

Q: The US government appears to have a different view on the religious freedom here...?
Ans: The US government had appointed a Commission on International Religious Freedom. This
Commission is an authentic body and funded by the government. The Commission gets
information from all countries and then submits a periodical report to the government and is
recognised seriously by the government. Based on its report, the government of US applies
pressure on those countries where, according to the Commission, there is lack of religious
freedom. You'll be surprised India is among the Countries of Particular Concern (CPC) according
to a new report. They cite the anti- conversion Bill of Tamilnadu and Gujarat and some Gujarat
incidents as basis of their action. And they say there is no religious freedom. This is according to
their own matrix of norms on the basis of which they decide 'religious freedom'. I question this
matrix of theirs.
Q: What's your logic?
Ans: What is it that you say as 'religious freedom'? Is it freedom to evangelize and convert with
impunity? Is it not religious freedom if somebody says you should not make such conversions,
that it restricts freedom on you as you cannot practise openly your religion? If you as a religious
group is persecuted by legislation as well as by society then you say there is lack of religious
freedom.

What is it that constitutes religious freedom? We have to give guidelines. But they have their own
guidelines.

So if they can evangelize for conversions then there is religious freedom. That means if they are
free enough to destroy me and if I don't question that, then there is religious freedom. If I question
their actions missionary activities which are directed towards an indigenous religious tradition and
aggressively at that if the religious tradition stands up to that aggression, then it is questioned as
infringement upon their human rights and religious freedom. Therefore I am appealing to the
government of India to appoint a Commission on religious freedom. And give the people on the
Commission certain guidelines on the basis of which we decide where there is religious freedom
and where there is not. On Sonia's political aspirations

Q: What do you think of Sonia's bid to lead the country?

Ans: You know what, even against Indians, I have a complaint. Nehru was an Indian but did not
like our culture totally. It did tell upon his attitude towards our culture and traditions. Because he
was brought up in England and even here he had a British household. And there was still
something Indian about him, some appreciation. But somebody like Sonia has been struggling to
even learn Hindi. It is always a question whether at all it is possible for her to feel for the whole
country, its culture, religion, everything. So being not born and brought up in this culture, it is very
difficult for her. So I would sympathise with her. I am not against her, but I would sympathise with
her. If I were her I would say, let me not get into this, because I have not really absorbed this
culture. It would take centuries for that. And because of that I cannot lead the people.

So, we ourselves can decide and give them a report. I want the government of India to appoint a
Commission constituting people of different religions but working dispassionately. Let them
submit a periodical report which may be made available to the United States and all other
governments through the embassies. And I think they should do this. Otherwise what right have
they got to say that in this country there is no religious freedom?

Q: But even the minorities in India often complain about lack of religious freedom?
We should find out the amenities and privileges of the minorities in this country. Nowhere in the
world minorities enjoy such privileges. For instance, if I want to start a teachers training or nurses
training college at Tiruchi I cannot. But a Christian can. All the teachers training colleges are
conducted by them. The Bishop openly says that if you become a Christian, I will give you
admission because it is meant for Christians. That is minorities' privilege. Amazing.

We are fighting with the government, for the same privileges given to the minorities to be given to
the majority also. It is not discrimination, but reverse discrimination. The Hindus are reversely
discriminated. Because of the sin of being in majority. All our endowments are under the
government scrutiny. When there is property they come into picture, too. And in teachers
'appointment and admission, government interferes. In management schools also, certain quota
is to be given to government. Everything government decides.

But in minority schools, teachers' appointments are by the management. The government does
not have any say. But again they are only government-aided schools. Minority-run government-
aided schools. The teachers are paid by the government, but are appointed by the management.
The nuns, fathers and priests are all paid the nuns are wedded to poverty and the money they
receive are given to church for conversion work as a donation. So, it becomes a money-spinner.
Government in other words is paying for the conversion work. And they say in this country there
are no privileges. Opposite.

Q: You mean the majority is discriminated...?

Ans: There is a Minorities Commission already. And some fellows are travelling by planes all the
time. They say: I am the president of Minorities Commission. He goes from one place to another
and this is funded by the government. The clergy is given money, the madrassas are given
money. Why can't we give money at least to those who go on Kailash Yatra? Why don't they give
something for us also? But then if they find some money, then they will sit there as vultures. So,
all the money is in the hands of the government. They decide what they want to do. Temple
money they are in the hands of the government. They use it for whatever they want to use for,
what they say as 'constituency development'. You know what is constituency development MLAs
and MPs development. Hindus are fighting for equal rights. We want minorities' rights. That is all
we want. Whatever the minorities have, yes, we want those rights.

Q: But for that to happen we may have to become real minorities...?

A: If I am in the majority, I cannot open my mouth for anything, even for dental surgery. But if you
are a minority, you can do anything here.

Already, all the fellows are dancing to them. Even those who have got nothing to do with religion,
Communists for instance, are dancing to their tunes, because they have got some votes. If the
minorities become 30 to 40 per cent, that will be enough! It is the majority that suffers and
therefore, I say, we have reverse discrimination, here in this country. It is blasphemy to say that
there is no religious freedom in India.

The only place where there is religious freedom in this world is India. They can convert with
impunity, they can talk about it. The Bishops can go and complain about this to Pope and they
can go to the Commissioner and complain about it. They are keeping the entire media under their
control. They can write against us, but we cannot even publish our articles. You know writers are
complaining that most of them who are writing (on the issue) are not getting columns any more.
They are not writing nowadays. You can't see their articles appearing anywhere because they are
all blacklisted. Occasionally I write, and if I am a regular writer I would be blacklisted also. Once in
six months or so I write, especially when there is an issue. I wrote recently because the American
Commission listing India as among the countries of CPC is a serious allegation. The State should
take this seriously. The Indian people should take this seriously. We don't take this seriously. That
is why these people go about complaining.

Q: But that is their right....

Ans: Bishops are complaining. Why should they complain to the Pope? Then after they complain,
they release this complaint, the Papal approval of the complaint. And then the Papal message is
released to the public. They say that press released it. Then, when there is a protest for this, they
say that the Pope had talked privately to the Bishops. Then how did it come to the press? They
thought they would get away with it and therefore released it to the press. They never thought
they would get an attack from the Chief Minister of the State. She was the Head of the State. If at
all Pope has got anything to say, he should send an official note to the government of India. He
had no business to tell all these Bishops. They are Indian citizens. And when Bishops go and talk
to Head of another State, then that is religious freedom. They go outside and paint our country in
black colours. And they say they don't have freedom when they are actually allowed to talk.

You know what, the government of India should take this very very seriously. They have not
taken it seriously and I have appealed directly to them.

In the presence of the Prime Minister I made an appeal. The Finance Minister was there and
Murali Manohar Joshi was there. I wrote a letter to the Home Minister saying this. I went to
Minister of State for Home and talked to him also. This is what I am afraid. Nobody understands.
Q: May be because they don't want to displease America?
Ans: Keeping quiet will only lead to America being more displeased. We should tell the privileges
that are here for minorities and convince them. Why should we not list them? I would like you, as
a press person, to get a list of all privileges of the minorities. I would like to have that. You please
write, list in your paper, I would like to see listed in a paper all the privileges both minorities and I
have got. And let us thrash this all over, send to all countries, we will send it to the Commissions,
you send it to the Commission also. If you give me, I'll send it to American Commission. The
government of India is toothless. I wonder whether it has got a vertebrae. It is slithering, it has to
stand up. Now it is a 'slithering beauty'.

Doing something else in the name of charity is uncharitable: Swami Dayananda 'Role of religion
is to make us humans'

T R JAWAHAR

How do you reconcile between Bhakthi and Reason? Can spirituality be sustained on empty
stomachs? And what is the role of religion? These are profound questions baffling humankind.
These are questions that only a man who has a deep understanding of traditions and culture and
also a vision for future can tackle with authority. And Swami Dayananda Saraswathi is one such
person as he answers these questions and a few others in his fourth and concluding part of his
interview with T R Jawahar.

Q: Can you tell us about some of your activities over the last few decades?
Ans: I have been basically teaching Vedanta. My work has been only teaching of sasthras in the
most traditional way and we have trained many. I have been helping social causes and also
organisations engaged in such social causes. Recently, I have started a movement putting
together certain projects keeping in view the needs of the people.

While working with people I found out that the first thing we can do is to have hostels wherever
they are needed for children going to high school. It will provide two things ensure students get
continuous education with there being no child labour. The other benefit is we can give them
some value structure, and protect their culture. This will help them to make choices in their life.
Now villagers and tribals can send their children to school. These people are uncontaminated,
they are very sharp and rooted in their own culture. They have a vision of the vedic culture and
the concept of Ishwara in their own way. But their children cannot pursue education because they
are far removed from schools. So what we are doing is to bring them to the hostels. Whereever
we have tried, it has been successful. The parents are proud of their children, the children are
proud of their culture.

Q: Where all have you tried this project?

Ans: We have tried this particularly in Coimbatore district's Anaikatti where there are a lot of
tribals. In India, we have 597 districts and our aim is to have hostels in all of them. Every hostel, if
it has to house a minimum of 100 children, needs a building, land etc. So we plan to approach
597 persons to provide this in their districts. Once we have the infrastructure, then we can go to
the people to run the hostels. Then the government can also help to the extent possible. We are
planning this not just for rural and tribal areas but also for urban areas where there are slums.
Those children can also get education, say, in government high schools where there is free
education but no staying facilities.

And we have seen that in rural areas, schools also get better if we can pay some attention to
them. We can provide them facilities like playground, compound, furniture etc . The villages also
stand to benefit by way of new government schemes. International agencies will also be involved
after two or three years. The NRIs can also be roped in for providing infrastructure.

We call it AIM for Seva All India Movement for Seva. This is a movement initiated by the
acharyas, that is the distinguishing feature about this. I have put these acharyas , mutt heads,
(Sankara mutt, Upa mutts, Vaishnava mutts, Jeeyar and others, Saiva Adheenams, Lingayyat
mutts, other north sampradayas, Mandaleshwars), all together in what we call Acharya Sabha. I
am just a coordinator. I have talked to them and told them my plans. They have all agreed to be
members of this Sabha.

I am also convening a meeting on 29, 30 November and 1 December at the Rani Meiyammai Hall
in Chennai. This is the first time such a thing is happening. It is not a big public meeting but just a
one to decide what to do and exchange ideas. We will also discuss national issues. We are all
sadhus doing our work for dharma.

AIM for Seva is a wholly secular activity but initiated by the Acharya Sabha. It has no particular
sphere of activity. It will help do anything that society needs to promote.

Q: How do you justify rituals in one's quest for spirituality and God?
Ans: There is nothing wrong with rituals. In fact the rituals make this religion great. So do prayers.
Just take the example of penicillin. If you have a headache and you take penicillin, it is overkill.
You have to take specific medicines for specific ailments. Like that, you have specific prayers for
specific occasions. If you have an eye problem, I can invoke Ishwara as a Devata presiding over
eyes.

There is only one Ishwara but there are different manifestations. It also depends on how we see
them. There are eyes your eyes, my eyes, eyes of owl, lizard etc. Not all see it the same way.

That is why Indian rituals are the greatest. The vedic rituals are not ordinary. Everything is a form,
your language is a form, namaste is a form, your dress is a form.

Q: Can spirituality thrive on empty stomachs?

Ans: There's spirituality on one side and on the other hand empty stomachs. True. People's
problems have to be attended to, and the State has to do that. But there is a lot of confusion as,
because of State's failure, the Hindu religion is being reviled. Spirituality cannot be sustained on
empty stomach. But it is spirituality that can sustain the empty stomach.

Religion has nothing to do with all that. It is to make you human and divine and then to take you
to divinity, the source of divinity. We all can go upto that point. And that is the role of religion.

Q: But Christianity lays much store by charity works ... ?

Ans: It is because these missionaries are using some of these methods perverted methods for
conversion works. And you also think that is the role of religion. The role of religion is to make you
human. That's all.

They should do humanity work, like the way we do. We have charities all over the world. Look at
Salem or Coimbatore, how many hospitals are there? Almost all of them are run by Hindu
charities. And what do they do? They don't convert, they just run the charities. There is no priest
or nun there for there is no conversion programme and therefore the charities remain charities.

But to run charities for some other purpose is the most uncharitable thing to do. Have you seen
how those who supply cows to slaughter houses treat those cows a week before the slaughter?
They don't allow the cows to move around in a bid to increase their weight. It is called 'pounding'.
In that period they feed them a lot.

When you look at it this way: love and feeding, you'll find, ah! how humanitarian these people are,
so human, etc... but those fellows have an eye on something else. This is how I see all the
missionaries work love of slaughter house people. They slaughter religions, slaughter traditions,
slaughter cultures. Yes, they do humanitarian work, but slaughter house love it is.

If you really love people just give it, forget about it, and don't talk about your religion, keep your
sacred religion in you heart. Therefore, I find it is not a happy thing to talk about, the vulgarity of it.
Even to talk about it is rather staining my tongue and leaves a distaste. The government of India
has to appoint a Commission immediately, I repeat, and submit a report. This is what we omitted
and this is to be done.

Q: In these high tension times where life has become so fast and stressful, as a spiritual man
what is your recipe for sound health of body and mind?
Ans: Attitudes. We need to have healthy attitudes. Attitudes really help us. You know 90% of our
problems can be attributed to improper attitudes. Because when I have to put up with situations
which are unpleasant, I murmur, I become violent, angry, sad. But we have to face it calmly,
dispassionately. We require composure and self-respect which can accommodate human
limitations and address them. Accommodation does not mean you do not respect,
accommodation is you don't condemn the people, at the same time you address the limitations of
the people, correct them, help them, you correct yourself, learning from situations. So, this is what
is required:

Attitude.
Attitude comes from understanding. Like your attitude towards money is to understand what
exactly is money. For us money is Lakshmi - without looking down upon it. And we don't look at
Her as everything. There is also Saraswathi. She is playing veena. She does not care whether
you come to her or not. But she knows that Lakshmi won't do much to you, unless you have
Saraswathi.

So, healthy attitudes will help us. That's what spirituality is. That means we have to understand
Ishwara. We have to understand 'Karma' and 'Karma Phala'.

Q: In this Kaliyuga it is often said Bhakthi is the best way for attaining salvation. Is Bhakthi above
Reason? How do you reconcile Bhakthi and Reason?'
Ans: It is something like love is opposed to reason. Love is not opposed to reason. There is no
reason above love. That's what Bhakthi is.

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