Regarding the RPM of 6FA Turbine

Have a question regarding the GE 6fa gas turbine RPM. we use Mark 5 with
DLN 2+...

By jameelrahman on 6 December, 2015 - 11:41 am

Hi to all,

I have few questions about 6fa which Follows,

1.At what RPM of the turbine, starting Mean disengage from the turbine
shaft. (we use electric mean starting system with voith coupling and Natural
gas used as fuel)?

2.At what rpm purge done?

3.At what rpm firing done?

4.At what RPM Warmup done? and warmup estimate time?

5.at what Rpm acceleration starts?

6.if flame establish fail while startup, is the turbine reduced its speed to
cranking speed?

7.on what basis fuel stroke reference for all the gas valves is set while
starting the turbine or FSR is CONSTANT?

at last 8. why 100.3% speed at fsnl????????

Great minded peoples, Please do reply as easy...bliss to see.....

thanks and Regards....

By MIKEVI on 6 December, 2015 - 10:48 pm

2 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...

Dear Jameelrahman,
the Frame 6 machine is not the GE heavy design turbine that I have the
most experience with. But I will attempt to answer to the best of my
abilities.

1.At what RPM of the turbine, starting Mean disengage from the turbine
shaft. (we use electric mean starting system
with voith coupling and Natural gas used as fuel)?

Typically the starting means when they are electric or diesel will disengage
at either 50% or 60% of the normal operating speed of the machine. The
machines that use a static starter that turns the generator into a motor to
crank the machine will typically assist the acceleration of the machine
until it is near FSNL. I am pretty sure for your machine the speed is 50%
when the torque converter is drained, and no longer transmits torque. The
starting motor will usually run for a period of time after the converter is
drained to allow the motor to cool.

2.At what rpm purge done?

Purge speed is usually something slightly more than 20% speed but we
would need to see your application code to confirm. For most units using
the Voith torque converter there are speed switches that set the angle of the
vanes in the torque converter and those settings will determine the speed
of the unit during the purge cycle. Purge is usually satisfied by the turbine
speed being above the speed level detect of 14HM1 for a period of time
defined by the purge delay time K2TV.

3.At what rpm firing done?

Typical firing speed on gas is usually 10% speed.

4.At what RPM Warm-up done? and warmup estimate time?

Warm-up is usually not done at a specific speed but a period of time after
the unit fires. Typically fuel is admitted to the unit at a "firing" FSR rate.
Once flame is established fuel is reduced to the "warm-up" FSR rate to
reduce stresses on the turbine mechanical parts. Warm-up time is defined
in the application code for your unit, possibly the constant K2W.

5.at what Rpm acceleration starts?

Acceleration should begin once the warm-up timer has completed. Speed
will depend on how the torque converter has been accelerating the unit
while the warm-up timer was running.

6.if flame establish fail while startup, is the turbine

reduced its speed to cranking speed?

If the unit fails to establish flame during the start sequence and the "firing
timer" expires the unit will be tripped. The firing timer (K2F) is usually
between 30 and 60 seconds.

7.on what basis fuel stroke reference for all the gas valves
is set while starting the turbine or FSR is CONSTANT?

Firing FSR, warm-up FSR, minimum FSR, and shutdown FSR numbers
are constants. Most other operating situations are some sort of closed loop
control. Acceleration, temperature, speed etc.

8. why 100.3% speed at fsnl????????

100.3% speed defines a speed where the during synchronization the

machine has a positive slip as compared to the grid frequency. The 100.3%
speed reference also sets a positive megawatt output of the machine, also
known as "spinning reserve".
I hope this information is helpful to you, other contributers may answer
your questions in more detail.

By jameelrahman on 7 December, 2015 - 10:12 am

At first, Thanks for your time Brother....And Loads of Thanks for your
reply....And one more thing i need to know that fuel Mode changes from
one to another (like From primary to Lean Lean mode) based on RPM of
the turbine or based on Exhaust temperature.

Thanks in advance.........

By CSA on 7 December, 2015 - 5:40 pm

2 out of 3 members thought this post was helpful...

MARKVI,

Great detail--thanks!
 I only have one quibble--and that is what happens when the unit fails to
establish flame during starting. In my experience, when the unit fails to
fire on the first START attempt the unit just continues to spin ("crank")
until an operator takes some action.

Some units have "legacy" sequencing that will automatically try a second
firing--with no operator action required, which surprises many people to
be discussing the first fails START attempt and to see the unit has
established flame and is accelerating "all by itself."

I have heard of machines that do trip on "Failre to Ignite"--but I think

they're the exception rather than the rule.

How many turbines do you see, as a percentage of the total machines you
work on, trip on "Failure to Ignit"?

By CSA on 7 December, 2015 - 8:21 am

2 out of 3 members thought this post was helpful...

Hi,
I'll answer two of the questions:

> 7.on what basis fuel stroke reference for all the gas valves
> is set while starting the turbine or FSR is CONSTANT?

Well, FSR is the total amount of fuel to be flowing to the machine, and
when there are multiple fuel nozzles operating in a staged system the
control system is programmed to split FSR into the various nozzles based
on a fixed calculation of the percentage of fuel to flow to each set of
nozzles based on the combustion mode the unit is currently operating in.
For example, if FSR was 25%, and the combustion mode required 25% of
FSR to flow into one set of nozzles and the remainder (75%) to flow
through another set of nozzles, the control system would position the
appropriate valves to have 6.25% FSR flow to one set of nozzles and
18.75% FSR to the other set of nozzles.

The FSR during firing and warm-up is derived from the two Control
Constants (FSKSU_FI & FSKSU_WU) that are modified by a speed- and
axial compressor inlet temperature bias (TNHCOR) to help reduce
temperature stresses during stating. When th ambient temperature is
colder, the machine requires a little more fuel for firing and warm up, and
when the ambient is warmer it requires a little less fuel to fire and warm
up, but the difference is really only a few tenths of a percent FSR.

> 8. why 100.3% speed at fsnl????????

When synchronizing a heavy duty gas turbine its customary for the
generator frequency to be slightly higher than grid frequency. The control
system designers decided to standardize on 100.3% as the point at which
the unit would be accelerated to during a START in order to be
synchronized more quickly. (Having the prime mover running at a speed
slightly higher than grid frequency means that when the generator breaker
closes and the unit speed decreases to 100%, the extra energy that was
keeping the unit just slightly above rated speed will result in a positive
power output from the generator, thereby preventing a reverse power
condition. And for a machine rated at 80 MW with 4% Droop that means
the unit would be producing (((4/0.3)/100) * 80 MW)=+10.33 MW when
the generator breaker closes.)

Its just a umber, and for some machines it's a big number and for others it's
a smaller number (for a 25 MW machine it's (((4/0.3)/100) * 25
MW)=+3.33 MW; for a 150 MW machine it's (((4/0.3)/100) * 150
MW)=+20 MW). It's not cast in stone--meaning it can be reduced slightly,
but it should only be done so with consultation and agreement of the OEM
or equipment packager.

Hope this helps!

By jameelrahman on 7 December, 2015 - 1:07 pm

i blissed with your Reply CSA

Thanks so Much.
i have two more questions,

1.on what basis the gas fuel mode changes,whether it based on RPM of
the turbine or the exhaust temperature?

2.what is the IGV angle at various startup sequence?

and one more thing from the reply of MIKEVI, which is the first reply of
my post. In that first one , he said the starting mean disengage at 50 or 60
% speed of the turbine rpm.And also he told, the starting mean provide
acceleration to turbine upto FSNL(100.3%) of the turbine. how it give
acceleration to the turbine while it disengage at 60% or 50% speed of the
turbine.

Please do reply ..Eagerly waiting for your answer.

thanks and regards.

By MIKEVI on 8 December, 2015 - 10:28 pm

1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Dear Jameelrahman,

First I need to answer the question posed by MR CSA. In my experience

I have never had a machine trip on failure to ignite. I have seen the
legacy code you speak of that is designed to initiate a second attempt to
fire if the first attempt fails, but I have never tested the logic to see if it
would actually work. I have also seen the code that will trip on the first
failed attempt, but never tested that either. I admit that I definitely do
not have the field or life experience with the GE heavy duty turbines
that you have. But I still attempt to help, and I appreciate you catching
me when I might be wrong, or at least questionable in my answers.

For you Jameelrahman here goes a couple more.

1.on what basis the gas fuel mode changes,whether it based

on RPM of the turbine or the exhaust temperature?

Fuel mode changes are most always a function of TTRF1 which is the
calculated temperature of the gases entering the 1st stage turbine
nozzles. I assume by fuel modes you mean primary-secondary-lean-lean
and premix. Or in the DLN2.6 machines the admission of fuel from
various nozzles of PM1, PM2, PM3 and quat. I believe that the TTRF
calculated number is used since the calculation is the best way to
estimate a consistent load and mass flow through the machine that is not
affected by ambient conditions and compressor efficiency.

2.what is the IGV angle at various startup sequence?

The IGV's and inlet bleed heat are primarily used to protect the
compressor during startup and shutdown of the unit when the
compressor is most susceptible to stall. These two systems are also used
to control airflow through the compressor and combustion cans to best
match the supply of fuel. This is done to control CO and NOX
emissions at various loads. So I really can't give you a number of what
IGV angle is at various times in the startup sequence. I believe that they
are mostly closed during runup from firing speed to prevent compressor
stall, and they start to open at around 80% speed because that is the
speed at which the compressor starts to become efficient.

and one more thing from the reply of MIKEVI, which is the
first reply of my post. In that first one. he said the
starting mean disengage at 50 or 60 % speed of the turbine
rpm. And also he told, the starting mean provide acceleration
to turbine upto FSNL(100.3%) of the turbine. how it give
acceleration to the turbine while it disengage at 60% or 50%
speed of the turbine.

I did not want to confuse the situation with my answer, but I did anyway
so I will try again. With machines using an electric motor as a starting
device they may use a torque converter coupled to the accessory gear.
The older starting systems used a "jaw type clutch". Do a google search
and look for articles about gas turbine jaw clutches, I found a couple
from SSS that have good pictures and descriptions. The jaw clutch
systems were arranged where the output shaft of the torque converter
had a "jaw" attached. The input shaft of the accessory gear also had a
"jaw" attached. When a start was initiate pistons would push the two
jaw clutch halves together and torque from the motor and torque
converter would turn the turbine rotor through the accessory gear.
Switches on the jaw clutch would indicate to the control system that the
clutch was coupled together. As the unit accelerated past the "self-
sustaining speed" the turbine would start to outrun or overspeed the
torque converter shaft. This would push the jaw clutches apart, and the
control system would see that by a change in status of the clutch switch.
At this point the starting means would shut down since it was no longer
providing torque to accelerate the unit. Later units used a similar system
but replaced the jaw clutch with a SSS clutch. But with these systems
there were switches to indicate when the clutch was applied, and would
also signal the system when the turbine was accelerating on its own and
the starting means was no longer needed. The speed when this occurred
was typically between 50-60% speed.
Now in the case of your unit using a Voith torque converter I do not
think there is any type of clutch. The output shaft of the torque
converter is directly coupled to the input shaft of the accessory gear so it
spins all the time the machine is running. In this case there is typically a
speed setpoint in the control system that determines when the unit has
reached a self sustaining speed and can accelerate on its own without the
starting device. This speed is set in logic and for your unit I think should
be 50% speed.

Finally I mentioned that the large frame machines, 7FA, 9FA, and the H
class machines do not use electric motors for starting. Rather they use a
load commutated inverter (LCI) which transforms the generator into a
motor to crank the unit. This type of starting system can transmit torque
all the way to FSNL.

I hope this clears up my answer.

By jameelrahman on 9 December, 2015 - 8:27 am

thanks Brother, For give me a clear view of thoughts.....

Best regards....

By otised on 9 December, 2015 - 11:56 am

2 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...

The default design practice when I was directly involved in heavy duty
gas turbine controls (Mark I and Mark II time period) was to hold at
crank (purge) speed after a failure to fire, and wait for the operator to
decide whether to try again (the re-fire was initiated by moving the
selector switch from AUTO or FIRE to CRANK and then back to
AUTO or FIRE). However, for unmanned stations, with remote start
and stop capability, at least one additional automatic attempt to was
generally made. If the end user required it, additional firing attempts
were permitted. Note, purging was required between attempts. Back in
those days, cranking speed and firing speed were usually the same
(about 18% speed).

By CSA on 9 December, 2015 - 7:48 pm

1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
MIKEVI,

I haven't had a lot of exposure to some of the newer machines that

have, hence the reason for my question. People are ALWAYS telling
that their unit trips on a "Failure to Ignite" and while I have been told
by other experienced controls people they DID work on units which
actually tripped on "Failure to Ignite " each one also told me that it was
unusual in their experience--that usually the unit continued to "crank"
indefinitely.

You and I know that the 4's are still picked up and a START is still
active if the unit is still at CRANK speed after a "Failure to Ignite" but
that the Speedtronic won't "do" anything to try to re-fire (unless that
legacy sequencing is present and active). And we also know that it's
not written anywhere in any documentation that when a "Failure to
Ignite" occurs the operator must select CRANK then FIRE or AUTO
to re-initiate the firing sequence, or initiate a STOP and wait for the
unit to coast down sufficiently to get a "Ready to Start" indication to
try another fired start.
GE does such a disservice to their customers by not providing good
documentation, and this basic operation description is a perfect
example of the harm caused by the lack of documentation. The same
people who tell me the unit tripped on "Failure to Ignite" say they had
to trip the unit or give it a STOP in order to try another START. It
didn't really trip, but they couldn't get the unit to do anything even by
clicking START again--it would just keep cranking--and selecting
CRANK then re-selecting FIRE (or AUTO) is not very intuitive, so
they just think it "must have tripped."

I wasn't trying to slight anyone's experience, just asking to get an idea

of the percentage of units you have worked with that tripped on
"Failure to Ignite." Nothing more than that. I do believe there are
actually units that are programmed to trip on "Failure to Ignite" but
they are the exception rather than the rule, and it really goes counter to
GE's philosophy of trying to reduce the number of trips.

Again, no slight was intended--none. Just trying to get a feel for the
number of units that actually trip on "Failure to Ignite."
By MIKEVI on 10 December, 2015 - 11:04 am
1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...

Mr CSA,

No slight was taken in your question or comments. I wanted to be

truthful to you and the original poster that my experience and
exposure while growing is still somewhat limited. I have had the
pleasure to go through several commissioning activities where I think
one can gain the most experience. And have the chance to test various
parts of logic that may never get used or tested. But so far I have not
had a unit ever have a problem firing that caused a failure to ignite
that I can directly comment on.

I think GE could do a much better job of documenting logic. When

talking about control systems, certain OEM's do specific things very
well, and others not so much. But I have not seen the perfect control
system yet in my opinion. I enjoy working with the GE speedtronic
 systems, but they definitely do some things that make me scratch my
head.

Again no slight was taken from your comments or question. I like

many others very much appreciate the time and effort you contribute
to this site. And I count on you to catch me if I make a comment that
may not be correct, or is based on my limited exposure to the GE
fleet. I am here to learn, and hopefully help others with what
knowledge I can share.

By elomoon on 11 December, 2015 - 2:22 am

1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...

As a reference for the DLN 2.6 combustion mode changes are made:

1D - 100 F
3 1650 F
6.2 1850 F
6.3 2230 F
 Values can look at the Toolbox

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