Jaggi Vasudev Doesnt Understand Science


Pseudoscience & Religion
Jaggi Vasudev Doesn’t

Understand Science (or the
Nature of the Universe)
July 26, 2012 • by tArkika
Introduction
Jaggi Vasudev is a self-styled new-age guru whose philosophy and agenda are
represented by his activities through his organization, the Isha Foundation. Isha
Foundation has steadily been gaining a follower base among the educated
middle class in India and among Indian expatriates in USA and other countries.
Among other things, Isha Foundation and Jaggi Vasudev are primarily purveyors
of instruction in yoga and meditation. Through their instructional sermons,
blogs, interviews, and other literature, they also dish out unscienti c advice
about life, health, and diet.
Mr. Vasudev has recently given a

few sermons, which, are plainly
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speaking, anti-science. He tries to
cast scientists as being naive
outsiders to the supposedly
wonderful world governed by the
laws described in his
pseudoscienti c philosophy. In my
opinion, the sermons are virulently
and dishonestly anti-science. It is
This image from CERN shows simulations of
quite evident that Jaggi Vasudev
proton collisions- of the kind that was used in
does not understand the basics of
the Higgs boson experiments at CERN.
the method of science that he self-
(Source: The New York Times, July 9 2012)
righteously decries as being
inferior. My hypothesis is that Jaggi
Vasudev’s act of interspersing his religious sermon with science is a conscious
attempt to appeal to the urbane middle class. Using intelligently misrepresented
scienti c concepts, Jaggi Vasudev willfully seeks to discredit the method of
science so that his followers adopt his supposedly superior philosophies.
The above video is a case study of sorts into how self-styled modern day ‘gurus’
make their woo-laden sermons appealing to the educated middle class. In
general, the educated middle class (in India and elsewhere) is not educated well
enough to reject pseudoscience, yet people remember enough science from
high school to be awed by popular (mis)representations. Since most people last
encounter rigorous science in high school, much of what one should know
about science is forgotten later in life. The listeners that Mr. Vasudev seems to
appeal are in this demography and know just enough science to ‘understand’
the dishonest and incorrect (pseudo)scienti c claims of self-styled gurus.
Further, Mr. Vasudev’s cunning and unprecedented use of ‘they’ and ‘us’ to refer
to scientists and his followers suggests that he seeks to represent his
organization as a ‘only path to The Truth‘-type cult.
Jaggi Vasudev fails to recognize that scienti c progress is a remarkable by-
product of human ingenuity. He wrongly claims that the scienti c method is not
the only approach to understanding the universe. At the beginning of the above
video, Mr. Vausdev attempts to take listeners on a brief tour of the history of
science. More speci cally, he mentions facts that most people would remember
from high school physics. He attempts a vague exposition on basic physics, by
using unsubstantiated but accurate-sounding accounts of the history of modern
physics. In the art of spin, such an introduction is probably designed to lend
credibility to the scienti c accuracy of Mr. Vasudev’s woo and to establish his
physics credentials.
Let’s examine critically, Mr. Vasudev’s claims, while playing along with the
ridiculous branding of scientists as some type of ‘the others’. Below, I
paraphrase or quote Mr. Vasudev’s claims, and point out how he is always either
inaccurate, illogical, factually wrong, or dishonest.
Jaggi Vasudev Does Not Understand Physics
Mr. Vasudev says, “They seem to have found something near to what they are
referring to as God particle [sic]. The Higgs boson, that has a mass of certain
signi cance.” Evidently, he knows nothing about what he is saying. If the entire
premise of Mr. Vasudev’s sermon is the a rmation of the existence of a Higgs-
boson like particle, shouldn’t he at the very least, understand what the Higgs-
boson is? His claim that ‘Higgs boson has a mass of certain signi cance’ is not
accurate enough to qualify as science. The Higgs-boson is a part of the standard
model of physics and there have been several attempts at explaining the
signi cance of its discovery, such as the video below by Jorge Cham of
phdcomics.com.
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Mr. Vasudev ignorantly claims that 1) yoga attempts to realize the space
between particles, 2) scientists seek answers to the same questions (about the
space between particles), but have given up on their attempt. The rst argument
has absolutely no scienti c basis. The second assertion is a vague claim at best
and false at worst, depending on how generous we are in interpreting it. If we
assume that Mr. Vasudev is aware of the quest for understanding dark matter
and dark energy, then he is willfully misrepresenting facts because this is indeed
a very hot area of research.
Jaggi Vasudev states the interesting fact that much of the universe is ’empty
space’ (e.g. in each atom, the nucleus and electron are separated by space that
consists of ‘nothing’, loosely speaking). While it is true that ’empty space’ has
recently ba ed scientists, Mr. Vasudev’s description of the science is inaccurate,
vague, and incomplete. Compare his loose remark with the impressive and
scienti cally accurate explanation by Brian Cox (via Phil Plait) of this very fact
and its implications in simple, yet accurate language. Mr. Vasudev, however,
attempts to give his sermon a pretense of scienti c accuracy. Judging by the
number of followers he has, his strategy appears to be reasonably successful.
“If you look at the universe, you see nothing. But if you look closely enough into
an atom, it yields to you.[sic]”- This sounds so much like what a scientist like Carl
Sagan would say. Yet, this platitude is neither complete, nor accurate as Mr.
Vasudev intends to portray. Let’s assume for a moment that by ‘looking at the
universe’ Mr. Vasudev refers to astrophysics. He seems to suggest that turning
our sensors to the vastness of the universe teaches us nothing about the nature
of matter. In reality, astrophysics is crucial to our understanding of the nature of
matter. For starters, early particle physics involved studying cosmic rays in cloud
chambers. Mr. Vasudev could have been useful to the popularization of science
and the scienti c method had he played on this platitude and suggested to his
followers that they build cloud chambers to study cosmic rays, which is an
interesting DIY project for a weekend. Such an exercise would teach us much
more about the universe than any of Mr. Vasudev’s own pseudoscienti c
sermons. Actually, there is no better place to look for Higgs-Boson or any other
sub-atomic particle, than in cosmic rays. As Ian Sample points out in this
interview, the reason that the massive accelerator was built on the earth was
because it is a much cheaper alternative to sending a su ciently sensitive
detector into outer space to look for the Higgs boson in cosmic rays that are not
sullied by atmospheric e ects. It appears that Mr. Vasudev is also ignorant,
willfully or otherwise, of the entire eld of cosmology. Only by ‘looking at the
universe’ was Edwin Hubble able to arrive at the conclusion that the universe is
expanding, leading eventually to the development of the big bang theory, and its
veri cation via the discovery of background radiation.
Jaggi Vasudev Casts Scientists as Being Ideological Rivals of His Cult
Paraphrasing Mr. Vasudev, ‘they’, the scientists “ rst discovered the atom, then
groped around, and discovered that there are things still smaller, etc.” That is
again, a disingenuous claim as indicated by the derisive tone that Mr. Vasudev
adopts. He seems to suggest that ‘they’, the scientists, don’t know what’s going,
that ‘they’re just groping in the dark and with each discovery, face the crushing
realization that they were wrong all along. In reality, that is a pretty inaccurate
reading of the life of scientists. The gaps in understanding are rarely a cause of
despondency for the scientist. Rather, for the scientists of Mr. Vasudev’s false
dichotomy each ‘known unknown’ is a remarkable opportunity to seek answers,
to sate curiosity. Thus, one of the goals of physicists since the mid-19th century
has been to understand the composition of the atom to as ne a detail as
possible. Each discovery related to particle physics enables us to get a more
detailed and accurate picture of the world around us.
Mr. Vasudev says that ‘yogic systems always claimed’ that knowing the
microcosm is knowing the macrocosm, and tries to portray these claims as
being consistent with modern physics. The words ‘microcosm’ and ‘macrocosm’
are philosophical or literary terms that don’t have rigorous scienti c de nitions.
This makes redundant and harmful, any attempt to link such an interpretation
of what is vaguely mentioned in the vedic scriptures to science. Even if we
assume that ‘microcosm’ and ‘macrocosm’ relate to the di erent scales over
which phenomena occur, it is grossly wrong to claim that somehow, physical
laws are invariant over scale. The most obvious counterexample to such a
‘microcosm-macrocosm’ equivalence is quantum phenomena which are
drastically di erent from classical phenomena.
The second sermon which is a lengthy tiresome elaboration on Mr. Vasudev’s

brand of woo is here:
In this sermon, Jaggi Vasudev ups the ante in his imagined clash with scientists,
perhaps emboldened by his appearance on national TV. He proposes that there
is a grand uni ed community of scientists who are ‘becoming good marketers’.
Haven’t we seen enough of such accusations of conspiracy elsewhere in the
community of religious apologists? Every woo-peddler from the homeopath to
the climate-denialist has adopted this line of attack. Skepticism and falsi ability
are crucial to the method of science. Anyone who has experienced rigorous peer
review knows how far from reality Mr. Vasudev’s uni ed-agenda-driven-
community-conspiracy-theory is.
Delusions About Finding Physics in the Vedas and Meditation
He proceeds to mock how scientists expend e ort and money into nding
answers that are either, 1) ‘realizable’ via meditation, 2) given in the vedas. While
some secular intellectual achievements of ancient Indians are impressive, these
claims by Jaggi Vasudev are dishonest falsities. Mr. Vasudev is misleading his
followers and the general public by claiming that the nature and composition of
the universe can be discerned by contemplative meditation or by turning to the
vedas. Such a claim would be laughable had it not been such a common belief
among woo-peddlers and their customers. Mr. Vasudev takes the standard
approach of suggesting that references to in nity, ‘Brahman’, etc. are actually
scienti c comments about the nature of the universe. This is totally false.
Modern physics rests heavily on observations and experiments that con rm

hypotheses about the physical laws governing the universe. There is not a shred
of evidence in the entire corpus of Hindu scriptures or archeological ndings to
suggest that ancient Hindus had any experimental or observational basis to
support their contemplative musings. It is impossible for the authors of the
vedas or anyone prior to at least the 19th century CE to have had any access to
the knowledge and technology that has been indispensable in the development
of physics. The path from physics as it stood prior to the 17th century to its
current state can only pass through all the important technological advances
since. When the famous biologist JBS Haldane was asked about the falsi ability
of evolution, he replied that that the absurd and impossible discovery of rabbit
fossils from the precambrian era would destroy his belief in evolution (600
million years ago- when there was barely any life on earth, while real rabbits
have only existed since a few million years). Like Haldane’s proverbial
precambrian rabbit, the impossibly likely event of nding fragments of large
telescopes among archeological artefacts of ancient India would be su cient
evidence to convince the world of ancient India’s precocity in matters related to
modern physics.
Meditation and yoga are functions limited to the human brain and the body.
There is no way of learning anything about the physical nature of the universe
from the kind of contemplation marketed by Mr. Vasudev. The only approach to
understanding nature is to competently apply the process of rigorous
theorization, observation, and experimentation that is characteristic of the
scienti c method. Further, competent application of the scienti c method also
involves a thorough understanding of the state of the art. Competence at being
able to apply the method of science cannot be achieved without spending
thousands of hours acquainting oneself with the scienti c literature in one’s
eld. ‘Self-realization’ and other such approaches related to the act of
contemplation are loosely de ned religious concepts that entail none of this
rigor and training. Thus there is no way to truly understand the laws of physics
via meditation and contemplation as Mr. Vasudev seems to suggest. Meditation
and yoga only result in personal experiences which, by their very con nement to
an individual’s experience, are neither generalizable nor reproducible.
Mr. Vasudev Draws False Equivalences Between Vague Vedic Concepts and
Modern Science
Jaggi Vasudev refers to the vedic classi cation of ‘existence’ into ‘sthUla’,
‘sUkshma’, ‘viJNAna’, and ‘shUnya’. Mr. Vasudev de nes these terms in vaguely
mystical terms, apparently consistent with the Hindu scriptures. The inexact
nature of such classi cations precludes the possibility of relating them to
modern science. It is thus wrong of Mr. Vasudev to draw an equivalence
between these supposedly Vedic concepts and modern science.
On Jaggi Vasudev’s Deceptive Appeal to Authority
Jaggi Vasudev then makes an appeal to authority. He claims to have spoken to a

‘great scientist’ about matters related to his own worldview. Mr. Vasudev uses
the age old argument that ‘Indian culture is dialectical, narrative, etc.’ and
wrongly attributes the superiority of modern science in describing the behavior
of nature to an apparent di erence between the ‘Eastern way of thinking’ and
‘Western way of thinking’. Mr. Vasudev makes what is arguably a sales pitch for
his philosophy, when he asks listeners to follow his approach to ‘realize the self’
to ‘realize the universe’. This again is dishonest as he obfuscates by not naming
the ‘great scientist’ who supposedly agrees with his philosophy. I call out Mr.
Vasudev to name this scientist and narrate the supposed anecdote in more
detail so that it can be subject to critical examination.
Vedic Speculations Are Irrelevant to Understanding the Universe
Mr. Vasudev claims that modern science conforms with the views of the vedas
that the universe is ever expanding or endless. The history of human thought is
full of conjectures about the nature and extent of the universe. Vedic views are
yet another set of such abstract conjectures with no scienti c foundations. The
only reliably correct model of the universe is the one derived from the laws of
physics as a rmed by rigorous observations and experiments. These are no
mere conjectures, but hypotheses backed by solid, rigorous, and reproducible
empirical evidence. Jaggi Vasudev disingenuously casts the results of modern
science as being equivalent to the contemplative speculation of the Hindu
scriptures. This is an obviously false equivalence. As stated earlier, there is no
evidence that the authors of Hindu scriptures had any access to the technology
that enabled say, Albert Michelson and Edward Morley, JJ Thomson, Edwin
Hubble, and every important physicist in the last two hundred years, to arrive at
accurate and reproducible conclusions about the composition and extent of the
universe.
In order to understand the absurdity of Mr. Vasudev’s (and other Hindu

apologists) claims that obscure references to the in nitude of the universe in the
vedas are legitimate scienti c statements, let’s indulge in a short thought
experiment. Imagine, 2000 years from now, someone comes across the work of
Isaac Asimov. Let us suppose that some speculation of Asimov’s, say, the
existence of portable sources of nuclear power as used by humans in the
ctional universe of Asimov’s Foundation series is a reality in the year 4000 CE.
As contemporaries of Asimov, we know that it would be ridiculous for humans
of 4000 CE to claim based on readings of Foundation that Asimov actually
invented such devices. Science ction of the recent past is replete with such
uncanny predictions. HG Wells considered the possibility of a network such as
the world wide web in a 1937 essay. The TV series Star Trek: The Next
Generation from the late 1980s and early 1990s features personal computers
that resemble the iPad. Yet, while we would readily agree that Asimov, Wells,
and the writers of Star Trek were no more than just visionaries and speculators,
most Hindu apologists are loathe to admit the same about ancient Hindus. In
reality, any Vedic reference to an endless or ever expanding universe is no more
than a speculative byline, with absolutely no relation to modern science. I should
add that I am also assuming Mr. Vasudev is not lying in claiming that there are
references to an in nite universe in the vedas. Once again, by peppering his
spiritual sermon with misrepresented science, I am of the opinion that Mr.
Vasudev intends to make his woo more credible and appealing to the middle
class.
Lies About ‘science being nothing without its ability to create useful technology’
The most malicious claim in the sermon is reserved for the end. Mr. Vasudev
claims that ‘scientists are nothing without technology [sic]’ and worse, that
‘science would be dead if it did not produce useful technology to the world to
justify the enormous money spent on scienti c research’. This is so egregiously
wrong! The most signi cant scienti c (and mathematical) breakthroughs came
about without any apparent utility. Starting with Galileo Galilei and Isaac
Newton, through James Clerk Maxwell, Albert Einstein, all the way to the work
related to the Higgs boson, few, if any of the fundamental breakthroughs in
physics were ever motivated by the need to create useful technology. Mr.
Vasudev’s smug condescension about the inferiority of ‘science before it is/was
useful’ is thus based on a wrong understanding of the history of science.
Conclusions
Jaggi Vasudev, like his fellow hustlers, Ravi Shankar, Zakir Naik, Deepak Chopra,
the Catholic church, and others, is ignorant about science, and yet he
dishonestly argues against science. As is de rigueur among the community of
‘spiritual’ ‘gurus’, ‘sadhgurus’, ‘jagadgurus’, and their apologists, Mr. Vasudev’s
claims are intellectually dishonest, factually incorrect, and riddled with logical
holes. In this article, I have elaborated on these mistakes in light of the true
nature and history of scienti c progress. Employing subtle malice and derision,
Mr. Vasudev casts the entire community of scientists as his ideological rivals. By
including allusions to science and the scienti c method, Mr. Vasudev seeks to
appeal to the educated listener. However, the general philosophy of science, the
history and nature of scienti c progress, and several key concepts in physics are
grossly misunderstood and misrepresented by Mr. Vasudev. Further, contrary to
Mr. Vasudev’s claims, one cannot discover the nature and composition of the
universe from the practice of yoga and meditation. Supposed Vedic allusions to
the nature of the universe are mere scriptural and philosophical comments and
have no relation to the modern descriptive model of the universe, most of which
is known to be correct and accurate beyond reasonable doubt. The unknowns
concerning our universe cannot be discovered by meditative contemplation and
the method of science is the only way forward.
Postscript
No, Mr. Vasudev, Solar Flares Do NOT A ect Human ‘Consciousness’
On July 21, 2012, Mr. Vasudev posted yet another pseudoscienti c message on
Youtube. This one pertains to how ‘human consciousness’ is a ected by solar
ares. Again, Mr. Vasudev is trying to capitalize on recent news from the world
of science. The claims again, are utterly untrue.
There is no way solar ares can a ect the human brain the way Jaggi Vasudev
wants us to believe. He also alludes to the moon a ecting the human brain.
There is only one way in which the moon can a ect humans, that is with its
gravitational pull. This is the only way you can ‘feel the energy’ of the moon. A
simple back of the envelope calculation gives us, for a 65 kg human,
F = GMm/(R^2) = (6.673*10^(-11)*7.36*10^22*65)/(3.84*10^8)^2 =
(6.673*10^(-11)*(7.36/1500)*65)/(0.0001)^2 (units: mass in kg, distance in m)
This equation basically tells you that the e ect of the moon is approximately the
same as the e ect of an object that is about 8 grams situated at a distance of 0.1
mm. That is the entire gravitational e ect of the moon on the entire human
body is as negligible as that of fruit y near your skin. Jaggi Vasudev, being savvy,
perhaps knows that whipping up hysteria based on the ill e ects of the moon
may be futile given how outrageous the claim is. Thus, he resorts to scare-
mongering using the more complicated phenomena of solar ares.
Solar ares are essentially electrical storms and their interaction with terrestrial
objects (via changes to the earth’s magnetic eld) is mainly electromagnetic in
nature, governed by the laws of electromagnetic induction (Maxwell’s equations,
etc.). If one were to compute their e ect on the human body, it would still be
negligible, since the entire human body is not large enough for large currents to
be induced. More details can be found here:
http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sw.html
Then, Mr. Vasudev appeals to empirical evidence about how people su ering
from psychiatric conditions report exacerbation during lunar phenomena. This
is again absurdly nonsensical. Skeptic Dictionary (skepdic.com) has a summary
of studies which disprove this. To quote from The Skeptics Dictionary:
 the moon, madness and suicide
Probably the most widely believed myth about the full moon is that it is
associated with madness. However, in examining over 100 studies, Kelly
et al. found that “phases of the moon accounted for no more than 3/100 of
1 percent of the variability in activities usually termed lunacy” (1996: 18).
According to James Rotton, “such a small percentage is too close to zero
to be of any theoretical, practical, or statistical interest or signi cance”
(Rotton 1997).
Finally, the notion that there is a lunar in uence on suicide is also

unsubstantiated. Martin et al. (1992) reviewed numerous studies done
over nearly three decades and found no signi cant association between
phases of the moon and suicide deaths, attempted suicides, or suicide
threats. In 1997, Gutiérrez-García and Tusell studied 897 suicide deaths in
Madrid and found “no signi cant relationship between the synodic cycle
and the suicide rate” (p. 248). These studies, like others which have failed
to nd anything interesting happening during the full moon, have gone
largely unreported in the press.
postscript: There are likely to be many studies in the future that nd a

positive correlation between some lunar phase and some human behavior
(or process affected by human behavior, such as the stock market).
Remember to consider a few caveats: correlation doesn’t establish
causation; studies that are well designed still need to be replicated before
they are accepted as not being ukes; some studies with positive results
will suffer from design aws or methodological errors. For example, in
2005 Yuan, Zheng, and Zhu found “that stock returns are lower on the days
around a full moon than on the days around a new moon. The magnitude
of the return difference is 3% to 5% per annum based on analyses of two
global portfolios: one equal-weighted and the other value-weighted.”
Whether this is a lunar effect remains to be seen. The study needs to be
replicated with a signi cant number of data points.
Mr. Vasudev ends the video with a call for people who wish to be saved from
these e ects (‘in the coming six years’ in his words) to join him in his plan. This
again sounds eerily like the manifesto of a salvation cult such as Heaven’s Gate
whose members committed suicide in the absurd belief that the appearance of
the comet Hale-Bopp in 1997 was going to a ect their lives in some way.
—-
The author would like to thank Arvind Iyer for his comments on the draft
versions of this article.
Post-post-script: I’d like to add Arvind Iyer’s comment below. He points out that
such views about mental illnesses as espoused by Jaggi Vasudev’s are harmful
and disrespectful to people who actually su er from psychiatric conditions.
Quoting Arvind Iyer,
 “The pseudo-psychiatric scare-mongering mentioned in the post-script is
especially worrisome. One shudders to imagine the plight of folks from ‘at
risk’ populations buying into the psychosis promoted by the likes of Jaggi
Vasudev, instead of availing of genuine and potentially life-saving help
from relatively unsung organizations like Metanoia (It will be worthwhile
to compile a link of India-based resources). Psychotherapeutic quackery,
which is as old as witch-doctoring, is as dangerous as other more
common forms of medical quackery if not more.”
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#Pseudoscience
About the author
tArkika
In my day job, I do science, mathematics, and engineering. I am interested in the philosophy of science, history of
science, history of human thought in general, and the history of Indian thought in particular. I cannot tolerate
pseudoscience. I strongly advocate that gatherings and celebrations ought to take place in science labs, math circles,
philosophy clubs, and museums, rather than under religious or spiritual pretexts.
My name, tArkika means 'skeptic' in saMskritaM. It is derived from root word tarka which roughly refers to logic,
reasoning, dialectics, or inquiry.
View all posts
777 Comments
Gurush
July 26, 2012 at 5:14 pm
And the skepticism around scientists, like the comment of Jaggi Vasudev that this article attributes to, rises when
they, sometimes,do the job of predicting the future and their claims falls at.
Take the instance of dark matter, the hypothesized place holder, that gives limbs to the big bang theory. In the ’80s
Vera Rubin said that dark matter will be found in a decade.In the ’90s Martin Rees stated that the dark matter will
be found by 2000. In 2000 the same astronomer claimed that the dark matter will be found out by 2004. And
recently John Ellis from CERN said that they will be nding it out in a decade. And now Carlos Frenk, a leading UK
astronomer is saying that the dark matter theory, may be wrong, as known today.
While someone can mount a defence that these were predictions based on technology available at the respective
time periods, to the common man, it appears skeptical, given the dark matter theory itself is a hypothesis without
which the big bang theory cannot stand.
My source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14948730
tArkika
July 26, 2012 at 8:00 pm
I mentioned in my article that this really isn’t a source of despondency for scientists. It instead is a great
opportunity.
You talk of predictions, taking their claims seriously is all about respecting their authority on the matter. While
authority (of, for e.g. Martin Rees) may give some weight to their opinions, scienti c results don’t stem out of
authority, but only rigorous peer review.
It is not correct to interpret failed predictions as failures of the method of science. Rather, it represents the success
of this method that failed theories, no matter how high up the pecking order it comes from, will all eventually be
weeded out. There may not always be accurate estimates of how long it will take for hypotheses to be proven to be
correct or wrong. But there is no doubt that eventually the *only* approach that guarantees that this decision will
be arrived at reliably is the method of science. Further, the kind of wishful prediction that Martin Rees, etc. made in
itself is not an application of the method of science, so such wrong predictions do not imply in anyway, the failure
of the method of science!
Gurush
July 26, 2012 at 9:40 pm
I do agree with you. And you were correct about Martin Rees’ wishful thinking. I have another question. I believe
that particle physics,as an area of science is more pronounced in Europe than in the States. I seriously doubt if the
States builds any of those particle accelerators at all. Do you see it the same way? If so, any idea why>
tArkika
July 26, 2012 at 11:44 pm
A part of the accelerator work was also done in the USA, speci cally in the now defunct Tevatron at Fermilab near
Chicago, IL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tevatron
There was a proposal back in the ’80s and ’90s before LHC to build the world’s largest particle accelerator in Texas
in the US. This was cancelled by the US Congress after budget overruns, questions about its utility, etc.
In any case, one of the earliest modern accelerators was built in the US- at Brookhaven near Long Island, NY, then
at Berkeley (present-day Lawrence Livermore lab I think), Stanford Linear Accelerator (SLAC), etc. etc.
The reason why USA is not at the forefront of particle physics today probably has a lot to do with the diversity of
political opinions in this country, and the di culty in getting big projects funded by Congress, as opposed to
undertaking similar governmental projects in a small and rich entity such as Switzerland (where LHC, CERN, etc.
are).
Arvind Iyer
July 26, 2012 at 11:51 pm
One trend in the US in recent decades is to adopt a middle-way approach of sorts between funding single labs
according to the traditional US model and gargantuan CERN-like consortia according to the EU model, by investing
in multi-institution Engineering Research Centers (ERCs).
Sunil Kumar
December 19, 2012 at 6:07 pm
It is hard to analyze the concept of enlightenment or god or similar phenomena. Thousands of years of search for a
logical explanation of god has failed. If there is something that has no equal, then it is impossible for our logic mind
to come to conclusions of that being – this is because logic works on the if-then model. The moment we say if then
it has to be compared with something else. In case of god – there is no comparison. We can also logically assumed
(if not safely) that anything that cannot be compared does not exist. Jaggu is sharing his thoughts. It is left to us to
decide if it an entertainment like a movie or just hear them and swipe under the carpet. We do not have any right
to criticize him. The fundamentals of since are still unclear. The uncertainty principles are not that easy to visualize
for our mind.
V SUBRAHMANIAN
April 29, 2015 at 6:19 pm
I have two readings and nd it hard to get the crux of your arguments in rebutting Sri Vasudev’s take on science
and the universe. Secondly your e ort in collating scienti c understanding is deeply hidden somewhere in
negatively projecting Jaggi’s sermons, blogs and video chats. Thirdly, one or more of Jaggis can not snatch the
opportunity that is awaiting the scienti c community in its exploration journey. Fourthly, you could have sent your
rebuttal to Mr Vasudev seeking his clari cation. Neutral readers like me will be more enlightened about who is
saying what and why. Thank you.
Arvind Iyer
July 28, 2012 at 11:03 pm
The pseudo-psychiatric scare-mongering mentioned in the post-script is especially worrisome. One shudders to
imagine the plight of folks from ‘at risk’ populations buying into the psychosis promoted by the likes of Jaggi
Vasudev, instead of availing of genuine and potentially life-saving help from relatively unsung organizations like
Metanoia (It will be worthwhile to compile a link of India-based resources). Psychotherapeutic quackery, which is as
old as witch-doctoring, is as dangerous as other more common forms of medical quackery if not more.
tArkika
July 31, 2012 at 2:23 am
Thanks for your comment. I would like to include your observation in the post itself.
Arvind Iyer
September 11, 2012 at 2:18 am
World Suicide Prevention Day is observed on September 10. ‘U can cope’ is a 22-minute free online movie released
on this occasion in 2012. More information and resources can be found in this post in the psychcentral blog.
Arvind Iyer
March 22, 2013 at 11:30 pm
Here’s another followup on the topic of mental health. Greta Christina’s recent blog-post’s title begins ‘Some
incomplete thoughts…‘ but is an overdue reminder and a strong case made to participants in the freethought
blogosphere to accord due attention and sensitivity to this topic.
Winterwind
July 29, 2012 at 10:44 am
Good article. Religious mystics often use scienti c jargon to lend credibility to their teachings. The average person
isn’t familiar enough with critical thinking and scienti c concepts to know when they’re being fooled. Well done for
having the patience to go through and deconstruct his claims.
keshav shet revankar

July 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm
All Hindu-Gurus are Asadgurus–not Sadgurus.Only Jiddu Krishna Murthy pointed out to American Audiance that
there is vaccum in their brains and Hindu ‘gurus’ ll that with their Rubbish This holds true in the case of Hindu
Middle class. IF only Media and socalled Hindu Intellectuals speak out like Justice Markandeya Katju there can be
some impact on the stupid middle class mindset. these Gurus are used as FRONTS by Hidutwa forces.
Krishna
January 9, 2016 at 1:44 am
Sir,
Why you and the author blame only middle class? Why don’t you just assume they (either middle class or anyone)
have their solace or something like that while spending their time with someone like Vasudev? Or you think
everyone should spend one’s time only the way you spend? Is it, you like an object and every one should like the
same object or you term them middle class? What is the reason you don’t blame low class or high class? Hope you
have targeted only Indian middle class. Note: I am a low class man. Hope some one do not blame me being low
class.
siva prasad
thanks for the author for analyzing this issue in a rational way.i have been closely watching the devotees of jaggi
vasudev(i cant call him mr. because he didn’t deserve this )how this people call western way of thinking and eastern
way of thinking.science don’t have boundaries unlike religion.i was bit shocked about his energy de nitions needs
some psychiatric treatment.hindu religion(of course all religions)is a big myth it will say everything discovered by
the ancient Indians only .but why they dont published before scienti c results.actually these kind of people dividing
humans as you western ,eastern,casteism,religion.
siva prasad
September 29, 2012 at 12:00 pm
as far as am concerned am one of the living cellular polymer

categorized under homosapien belongs to this planet earth.
Ashmant
November 2, 2012 at 4:52 pm
“Mr. Vasudev’s description of the science is inaccurate, vague, and incomplete.”- He does not intend to provide a
scienti c treatise, nor claims to be a scientist specialized in any eld of scienti c enquiry.Why the fuss??
“There is only one way in which the moon can a ect humans, that is with its gravitational pull”- Gravity is true for
anything with mass.Are humans merely mass? We can clearly see a “person” who goes into scienti c enquiry or
writes about the same. Who is that person?Mass, energy, something in between??
“Vedic Speculations Are Irrelevant to Understanding the Universe”. The very writer is part of the universe. Is he
understood fully? Even “understanding” is a function of the living organism. What is it? Nueroelectrical impulse in
parallel with storage in memory, something more, or something less? If it’s purely a function of physics, why bother
whether you understand X or Y or nothing? Where is this concern for understanding coming from?
“If one were to compute their e ect on the human body, it would still be negligible, since the entire human body is
not large enough for large currents to be induced.”- Assumption is that bodily e ect is the total e ect on a human
being. Surely, electromagnetic e erct would be low, even by common logic.But did JV say “e ects on
body??”.Anger,digust,jealousy,disbelief,cynicism..these are all very very real e ects in human life, though may not
have much measurable electromagnetic output. Even if we scan the brain and nd area of heightend activity, it’s
still RELATIVE to usual activity, not having any major physical consequences in the universe.But can we deny their
existence or e ect?
Neither is the writer a JV follower nor is argument his intention.Please be sceptical full-heartedly, even sceptical of
your own positions
Satish Chandra
“Why the fuss?” For the same reason you chose to comment. You have a vested interest in defending the likes of JV.
We have a vested interest in promoting science which also involves pointing out misuse of scienti c terminology
and concepts.
Captain Mandrake
November 3, 2012 at 2:14 am
I think you misunderstood the point of skepticism. Being a skeptic does not mean that you should just be skeptical
of everything and never be sure of anything. As a skeptic you are supposed to call BS where ever you nd it. As a
skeptic with a working knowledge of science people here are sure that JV knows nothing about science but he
shamelessly uses scienti c terms to fool his followers and low information on-lookers like you. Little bit of public
shaming is the need of the hour for people like JV and you.
Ashmant
I have only one vested interest. And that’s neither JV nor science nor anything else. It’s getting things straight.
The straight thing is that a person being very much part of nature is an immutable fact even if he is the very one
analyzing nature and its laws.
Science explores nature.Spirituality explores the very being exploring or even not exploring nature.
I am a fan of the scienti c method when I want to understand “something”. But to know myself, my origin,
direction, thoughts, feelings,experience, I have to resort to direct observation.
Reality comprises all.So “us” vs “them” is always going to limit our enquiry. It needs to be holistic.
Ashmant
I am with you Mr. Mandrake. One should call bullshit bullshit even when it’s our own.
Science follows a method of observation,experimentation and establishment of a theory.If tomorrow I want to

establish some new law of physics, I’m sure I’d need to form a hypothesis and its test scenarios, conduct
experiments and record ndings and establish a working paper which can then be shot down/accepted.Please call
me the biggest bullshitter when I propound a whacky theory that way.
I am not doing that. Even JV is not doing that. I claim zero scienti c knowledge. But this not about scienti c
knowledge but about scientifc temperament isn’t it? If not,why not make this a resricted website meant only for
discussion on speci c research topics by specialized practicioners?
So, scienti c temperament is about enquiry and not reaching conclusions without proper research. In case of
spirituality, that research takes di erent means than science coz the very thing being observed is of di erent
nature.
That doesn’t make mystics wrong.Surely, as far as objective understanding goes, scienti c enquiry is needed.
That was the crux.Sometimes, we need to just get the crux.
Satish Chandra
Science explores everything including our feelings and experience. But accepting that would mean accepting that it
is nonsensical to say that ‘human consciousness’ is a ected by solar ares. So you have to dance around with
deepities and never actually address what the article really says. As evidence, I point to your rst comment where
you conveniently quote mined to form your own conclusions (Hint: Please point out where in the article was it
denied that “Anger,digust,jealousy,disbelief,cynicism” e ect the human life).
Ashmant
Only a FOOL would consider JV as any authority on physics.Have I addressed the crux of the article now? But you
can’t take away the fact that he IS an authority in yoga. My point is that sweeping generalizations are being made
about Yoga, Vedas etc like the ones below, which undermine the millenia spent on its practice.I’m ready to
personally tell JV to his face to stop lecturing on physics. But what about statements like these:
“Mr. Vasudev is misleading his followers and the general public by claiming that the nature and composition of the
universe can be discerned by contemplative meditation or by turning to the vedas. Such a claim would be laughable
had it not been such a common belief among woo-peddlers and their customers.” -Laughable for what? So does the
article mean that the scienti c approach is to not investigate but to laugh beacause something seemingly lacks
rigor?Believe me, true yoga is damn rigorous, but in its own way. It’s a 24/7, day,night practice.His followers are
anyways going to him to learn Yoga, not science. He has a whole body of lifetime work in that dimension.I don’t see
him misleading anyone in that area .His takes on science I’m not taking seriously and hope none is. That end it
there. But to take that premise to attack Yoga as a whole is nonsense. That’s the only thing I address.
“Mr. Vasudev takes the standard approach of suggesting that references to in nity, ‘Brahman’, etc. are actually
scienti c comments about the nature of the universe. This is totally false.”- This is the sheer dogmatic stance that
made me respond on this website in the rst place. How do you know it’s totally false? Has the scienti c community
found FINAL answers to the existence of the universe?
Probably JV is giving a little prep talk to his followers so that they enter meditation with lesser mental burden for all
you know.But he has a very clear point that spiritual ‘awakening’ is a very concrete state reachable via a very
speci c way, and you’re free to try and nd out for yourself.Please tell me with CERTAINITY that the universe can be
fully understood that way in an objective way and I’m ready to research for life.
“Mr. Vasudev’s description of the science is inaccurate, vague, and incomplete. Compare his loose remark with the
impressive and scienti cally accurate explanation by Brian Cox (via Phil Plait) of this very fact and its implications in
simple, yet accurate language.”- Again the same thing, he’s not claiming to propound a perfect scienti c treatise,
but a perfect ‘inner’ treatise. You want me to de ne this ‘inner’ for you? If you take my word for it, it’s all there is to
know. If you don’t take my word for it, please nd out yourself. If you think you don’t need any of this ‘inner’ crap,
are ‘educated’ and ‘knowledgable’ enough to know everything for certain, good luck.
I mentioned human emotions because rationlism is NOT the means to master them. And it satis es you, I also say
that rationalism is the ONLY means to understand any external entity.The arguments in this article limited “e ects
on humans” to electromagnetic forces. I only added that there are many more things to consider when we put forth
“e ects on humans”.
“Middle class, not educated enough..”-Doesn’t this carry the same overtones as the very Church dogmas against
which “free thinking” emerged in the rst place?Or the Hindu caste system very much blasted here that disallowed
a class of people on having a say in matters of knowledge owing to them not having read scriptures? And many
scientists and inventors started with little formal education. Are you saying that intelligence can be equated only
with rigorous study of physical sciences? How about rigorous study of history or psychology for one?
“Self styled guru”- Yeah that’s true.Spirituality is only knowing this “self”. Being self styled is an inevitability here
because all understanding is very direct in nature. Please burn the vedas if you want, coz no written literature can
be of any help in knowing yourself.Yoga can give no universal theory. It can surely give universal understanding.
This I speak from my own insights with least regard to any sources.
I’ve said my piece and have nothing more to add. If you found even a ray of truth in what I said, please investigate
into that. Even otherwise, it doesn’t it doesn’t a ect me the least.
Satish Chandra
If you want certainty you won’t nd it in science. Instead of writing long comments, it would be nice if you
understand the basics of philosophy of science, importantly the probabilistic nature of knowledge. This is a good
resource.
Colonel Zaysen
December 7, 2012 at 2:34 am
Mr Jagadish Vasudev does not know what he is speaking and is only interested in one fact! How to get maximum no
of people into his cult and rip their pockets by selling them pseudo hotch-potch spirituality at in ated prices.
His Only concern is money! Money! Money! Nothing but money!
He had claimed some years [early 2000] back that he solidi ed mercury at room temperature when he erected the
Dhyanalinga[Hindu phallic form depicting Hindu Lord Shiva] at his Ashram.
He claimed that the energy form of his Dhyanalinga cannot be destroyed even if the entire planet is destroyed. Still
he cannot cut open his Dhyanalinga and show an international confederation of chemists and physicists where and
how mercury can be solidi ed at room temperature. Till date people are seeking proof of the same when he has
given none!
check this http://zaysen.blogspot.in/2011/04/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-his.html
shivaram
June 10, 2015 at 6:10 pm
Sir,
It is true that mercury can be solidi ed at room temperature. Also true is that metals which are poisonous to
human beings can be made to loose their poisonous charactor. water can remain as liquid even at -37 deg C under
speci c conditions.
Check out your assumptions.
Ravi
@Tarkika
are you a physicist?
Shanmugasundaram
January 1, 2013 at 2:01 pm
@colonel Zaysen, You need to go to vellingiri where a linga is immersed in water which is made of solidi ed
mercury in room temperature. You can see it and touch it for yourself. Good luck.
Regards
Shan
Captain Mandrake
Shan,
solidi ed mercury in room temperature
Solid mercury at room temperature?? Now that has to be a lie for the melting point of mercury is -38.83 °C. But
then why do I expect Jaggi Vasudev apologists to be truthful.
Shanmugasundaram
@Captain Mandrake,
What I meant was that a Linga is immersed in the water for all to see and if you are interested in testing whether it
is made of mercury, you can always go there and test it for yourself. That linga was made from people’s donations
and is not a property of anyone and hence you have every right to go and test it.
Without testing it, you cannot call it a lie that the linga was not made of mercury since Science believes in testing
any hypothesis.
I expect any serious scientist will test whether the linga is indeed made of mercury, even though the said scientist
knows pretty well that under normal temperature and pressure, mercury is a liquid. That does not mean, according
to science, that the normal behaviour of mercury cannot be turned into something completely di erent.If anybody
can do it, he/she will be quali ed for a Nobel Prize.
And, I am not a Jaggi Vasudev apologist and it was my mistake that I mistook that people in this forum will use
gentlemanly words instead calling others liars.
For your information, which I think is immaterial, but anyways, I have 14 patents to my name and I am a M.E
graduate from a reputed institute and am continuously doing real research rather than talking or arguing in
websites.
Regards
Shan
PS: This is my last post to this forum. I may return if any form normal web etiquette is followed.
Captain Mandrake
http://www.nist.gov/data/PDF les/jpcrd55.pdf
You can nd the phase diagram of mercury on page 808 of link above. Under room temperature and atmospheric
pressure mercury is a liquid. Does not matter how the linga was made, if it is at room temperature and pressure of
1 atm then it has to be in liquid state. All your patents and degrees or Jaggi Vasudev’s BS can not change that simple
fact.
Liars like you have to be publicly shamed for the misinformation you spread.
Badrinath
I am happy to see that this article has created so many Sadhguru’s & Self realizations which was possible only by
Sadhguru JV statements.
What I could see is two possibilities, one who believed those statements and one who does not which opens two
possibilities, One does not have any story to tell, and one has excellent arguments to prove that he is above
everybody.
However, those who know Sadhguru JV, will agree that he has never asked anyone to believe his experiences, but
walk the path of self realization.
K Chandrashekara
June 17, 2015 at 12:11 am
Why do you want to be neutral. Read up about Michael Faraday and James Clerk Mexwell’s contributions to physics.
You will be shocked to learn that modern electronics, internet, youtube etc etc., is built on their fundamental ideas
of electricity and physics. But they did not have a clue as to what their discoveries will be applied to in two hundred
years! Nor were they bothered about it! In fact when the queen asked Farady about the usefulness of his invention
(electricity) he is reported to have retorted if the queen could foretell the future of her baby. That Physics and
Maths are also a form of meditation can be appreciated only by those who practice it! you have to be obsessed with
it ‘inside’ and ‘outside.’
Captain Mandrake
Badrinath,
* However, those who know Sadhguru JV, will agree that he has never asked anyone to believe his experiences, but
walk the path of self realization.*
What the f%*& does that mean and how the hell is that relevant when his ignorance of physics is bring exposed in
this article?
R S Chakravarti
June 29, 2015 at 6:31 pm
Badrinath: I wouldn’t try to learn physics from Jaggi Vasudev. But I might nd him useful on the path to self-
realisation. I think these are di erent aspects of reality. Science tells me about the external universe whereas
religion tries to help me learn about myself, beyond what science says about the body, brain, etc. Swami
Chinmayananda used to say that what he was teaching was a scienti c experiment but it would take a long time to
see the results. I will not reject this without proof.
Leo
It seems to me that your reasoning has some aws…
When he says “science would be dead if it did not produce useful technology to the world to justify the enormous
money spent on scienti c research” he is saying that science would not SURVIVE if didn’t produce useful things,
people would not keep studying it, only a few people would be interested in doing it. If it produced nothing, it
would have the same status that philosophy has today.
He is not saying that science was created to produce technology.
K Chandrashekara
June 17, 2015 at 12:21 am
You are right in a way. Spirituality also would be dead if it did not provide the weak with emotional crutches (useful
technology, inner engineering!). Indeed science is philosophy and there are very few scientists…most practicing
scientists do ‘translational’ research to develop technology. Imagining time and space as being relative to each
other and imagining physical world in n-dimensions is possible only for YOGIS like Albert Einstein. Lesser mortals
can only hope to follow their path and ‘experience’ the beauty of physical reality. How di cult it is to imagine a
black hole swallowing up light! Only a TRUE YOGI can see it through meditation!
Ganeshan
Dear All
i also agree with science one thing i need answer from you people if science invent or discovered something will it
change or not. even physical thing cannot be true as it is today.
one more thing can we see current. we cant, just we can measure or we can say it is there, by switching on a light or
fan. if the opposite will not believe it and say it is light not current in wire. it is fan not current in wire then it is his or
her mistake. nally we has to make him or her to touch the wire and feel it.
same way by Dhayanam or Bhakti only one can experience it.
one more example of science and god. whether you believe god or not you will survive. whether you know what is
current or not if you switch on the bulb it will burn. it cant come and say to you. you do not know what is current so
i will not burn.
here i would like to say not to make the believer not to believe and those who not believe do not make them to
believe.
let every one goes on there own and live as a being human.
Harry
Being an Science student I too question all certain superstitious are mixed up with our culture. So that doesnt
mean all our ancestors understanding are stories…Before questioning theoritically ever one have you practiced the
meditation.The people who have practiced with so rigoursly could understand the reality as they reach reality….
He is no where blaming any scientist and science theories …He says to realize certain things a huge amount are
spend but didnt say they are wrong.
Theoritically questioning is not right come and practice and understand it.
Petr Hrabal
If you consider modern psychology as a method built on scienti c bases, and then look closer on its conclusions
and ,,message,, that it carries for men as living individual, you will see, that it greatly corresponds with Sadhgurus
teachings. His activity is focused on ones self development and well being, as well as existentional movement in
psychology. He is a great skeptic, claiming not to believe blindly, but question. If he is talking about science and
Vedas, it seems to be little bit o way, but it is not his main topic. His bene t for us is on spiritual level. He is limited
as everybody else.
p.s. He is for scienti c approach, technology and development. This article is out of context. thumbs down
Satish Chandra
 If he is talking about science and Vedas, it seems to be little bit off way, but it is not his main topic.
The topic of this article is JV’s understanding of science. Not his “main topic”. Looks like you are simply trying to
wave away all criticism.
Shriram
Hi,
What scienti c approach did he adopt when he discussed e ects of the solar ares or the moon on human
‘Consciousness’? Did he cite any studies conducted to nd such relationships? Or are we to take only his words?
Sivaram
March 13, 2013 at 3:17 pm
Dear Mr. Sriram,
There is speci c instances where in it has been observed that solar ares have e ect on mind though the e ect on
individual mind could be very minimal. studies have been conducted in the western scienti c community. I read
these in a web site but unfortunately I could not immediately retrieve the address.
How ever In a similar occurrence, You being an Indian must have been well aware that the phases of moon have
e ect on human mind and the e ect is more pronounced on people having unstable mind.
Amita
I agree with the author. The only saying of Sadhguru that one can agree with is that “Bull shit can get you to the
top”.
Ramesh
February 26, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Dear scientists, Sadhguru is not against for science or scientists or anything, pleas understand this. You unable to
understand what he has said, that is the problem!
msr sharma
March 6, 2013 at 10:38 am
let us not be under the impression that the science rules this world. when science could mitigate the
hunger,eliminate poverty,foster equality,bring peace to the planet,and lastly explain convincingly where have we
come from and what is the purpose of our stay here on this planet and where do we go from here,yes we agree
with your views.science has harmed life more than it helped.
Satish Chandra
March 6, 2013 at 11:44 pm
@msr sharma,
No one here has said that science “rules the world”. So I’m at a loss as to why you made that comment.
Sivaram
March 13, 2013 at 3:21 pm
Dear sir,
I believe that science is not the only way to understand the universe. Typical example is even before the invention
of electron microscope the structure of sodium and gold have been realised through mind focus by Annie Besant
and one another meditator and same was found to be exactly the same observed through the electron microscope
many years later.
You can google it for details.
Arvind Iyer
March 15, 2013 at 5:14 am
Does Mendeleef’s prediction that scandium, gallium germanium would one day be found, make him a ‘clairvoyant’
who relied on something other than the scienti c method?
Speculating model structures is only part of the scienti c method, of which the next integral part is subjecting the
speculation to empirical testing. For instance, Linus Pauling had proposed a triple helix model which was shown to
be incorrect by later crystallographic supporting evidence for a double helix model. Just sketching a structure from
the imagination is not science,in the absence of good reasons for choosing one structure and not another, and
pending experimental validation.
To say that the speculations of Besant and Leadbeater were somehow unprecedented and ahead of the science of
the day, is ludicrous given how postulation of atomic structures was mainstream science during their time. The
Periodic Law was already decades old when Besant and Leadbeater made their ‘astonishing’ discoveries by
‘clairvoyance’. To claim this work as miraculous is about as tenable as the narrative of an illiterate prophet.
Clairvoyance unfortunately doesn’t seem to submit itself to peer review or lead to any cumulative development of a
discipline. For some reason, clairvoyants seem to have an appetite for disconnected tidbits of information that is
already becoming common knowledge, rather than for answers to either pressing questions or big questions. For
instance, why didn’t Besant and Leadbeater use their impressive clairvoyance to see plasmodium in the anopheles
mosquito’s belly? That could have helped avoid so many preventable malaria deaths before the painstaking non-
miraculous discoveries of their contemporary Ronald Ross!
shivaram
June 10, 2015 at 6:18 pm
annie besat and the other person did this not in scienti c persuit. they did it because they were asked to do that to
show there are alternate way of gaining knowledge.
If you dont want to accept this , I am sorry to say that you dont have the open mind which is the pre requisiste for
any person engaged in gaining scientic knowledge ought to have.
Please be open minded and try it for yourself and then you declare it either way.
R S Chakravarti
I can’t comment on clairvoyance but just because a phenomenon isn’t amenable to peer review doesn’t mean it
doesn’t occur. For example, intuition; without it, progress in science or mathematics is impossible!
Surya
March 27, 2013 at 11:44 am
Hi ,
Really appreciate time taken to put-forth your point of view. However, I failed to understand one important point
from your article. What is Scienti c and what is Non scienti c. Some thing written by great Indian people (Vedas)
are unscienti c and what modern day people see with their eyes is scienti c?
Don’t you think our inability to understand and criticize makes one, unscienti c. don’t you remember, any
contradictions on Newtons and Einstein’s theory in news papers. which one should be believed. did you ever notice
that one day, Carrot was told good for health and after a week the very same carrot is bad for health so this so
called scienti c community that your are talking.
you must be a respected a person in your eld but that doesn’t give credence to the utterance over Veda’s. When
science doesn’t doesn’t believe in God, Why you call something as God Particle. That it self a big fallacy.
R S Chakravarti
A statement becomes scienti c if it is backed by evidence and logic. It doesn’t matter whether it occurs in the Vedas
or not.
Newton’s theory, while not strictly true, is good enough for almost all engineering applications, like designing a dam
or a car or a bullet train. Better approximations to reality were discovered in the 1st quarter of the 20th century:
relativity and quantum theory. The functioning of a tubelight can’t be described in Newton’s theory but needs the
quantum concept.
The Higgs boson is called the God particle by analogy with the concept of God. It doesn’t imply belief or non-belief.
Science doesn’t believe that God exists or that God doesn’t exist.
victor toso
April 1, 2013 at 1:04 am
“Meditation and yoga only result in personal experiences which, by their very con nement to an individual’s
experience, are neither generalizable nor reproducible.”
Hmmmm…the epistomological basis of science also presumes the inability to come to certainty about any of your
observations. As Kant and many since have asked: how can you be sure about the reality of anything your senses
bring to your perception because they are mediated by sense organs and transformed many times in the transit
from what we know as “outer world” to our “inner world” of conception and understanding? Thus the theoretical
basis of all science o ers which you proudly point out are reproducible events–hence objective?
Furthermore, isn’t it intellectual arrogance to limit possibly by what you have personally experienced? Consider this
thought experiment for a moment: What if in everyone lies hidden faculties of perception that remain dormant
until they are made to awaken through meditative exercise? What if the world that is opened to perception through
the awakening of these faculties is, indeed, just as objective as the perception we share of the natural world? What
if the same discipline developed in scienti c examination of the natural world is applied in this new world of
previously unseen reality? What if spiritual science were a reality and you, simply because you haven’t had the
interest or shown the curiosity, make a choice to remain blind?
Might it be possible to cut this sadhguru guy some slack while exercising some obviously untrained capacity to
remain open and tolerant to other points of view?
Just asking?
Krishna
Excellent
R S Chakravarti
February 1, 2016 at 7:11 am
I agree. Victor Toso put it really well.
Azad
April 24, 2013 at 6:17 am
The vedas are not scienti c documents any more than the bible or quran are peer reviewed scienti c manuscripts.
The illusion of great knowledge in the scared texts comes from selectively quoting extracts to suit scienti c
theories. Therefore only after a noteworthy nd is announced do proponents of sacred texts claim it was always
present in their books, i.e. they do not propose any new theories based on the study of these documents but only
claim certain obscure text refers to an already announced axiom. Also the scienti c method requires falscibility
which none of these pseudoscienti c theories have therefore no we cant cut proponents of pseudoscience any
slack. Hail discordia.
krishna samy Nallasamy

What is scienti c method, a method derived of human mind and that mind is in nite and so not all answers have
been given by science. Metaphysics is beyond science. science by human mind but not complete and the answers
may lie from sages and enlightened Masters and of course from religious books eg vedas. They are
incomprehensible to ordinary human conscious mind. Science cannot explain WHAT is human being can only
explain HOW it function not WHAT it function WHO is the source of this miracle called HUMAN. SCIENCE can only
name and explain the NATURE not create one. Take heed from Metaphysics explanation and we can survive as
human being and not with science for long.
Satish Chandra
Leaving aside the question of how much science can explain or not, I think it is pretty arrogant to assume that there
is only one kind of metaphysics that has all the answers. There exist others and they do a much better job than
Vedic metaphysics.
krishna samy Nallasamy

How much science can explain really matters because of the limitation of the human mind; thus science cannot
explain creation and existence. There is only one metaphysics as far as existence of universe is concerned that is
based on spirituality via religions and ancient religious texts and seers.The pertinent question for modern science is
who creates life? Religious texts and seers have answers but atheists refuse to SEE!
Bikash mohon sanyal
The controversy between science and religion is ridiculous. Each has its di erent domain.Both of the area is trying
to attain some fundamental truth. It must be absolutely clear that there is no end to this journey.
Captain Mandrake
** Both of the area is trying to attain some fundamental truth.**
What fundamental truth has been established by religion?
Ashwin
Maybe a sense of purpose? It’s not a “truth,” but naturalism can’t give it.
Shriram Bhandari
October 6, 2013 at 2:36 pm
Now rstly the point you’re making is correct that when we have study about higg’s boson we have to study cosmic
rays, what I don’t understand is that where does “Satguru” claim the superiority of meditation over science ? All he
says is that approaching nature and simply looking at things and seeing it as how it will be useful for me what can I
gain out of it is a mediocre way of looking at things. I personally do not see that this is the scienti c method. Also
before commenting on Hinduism better do your research, please nd out what “Carl Sagan” has said about
Hinduism and then post it. Your post has merely created a false dichotomy which does not exist in any of the talks.
Also this is no di erent from the view of fanatics who only view things as either you’re with us or against us.
Eswara Phalgun
Stories of Yore and Yogis of modern age claim that they have and is possible to achieve the state of oneness with
the universe or mukti or freedom or nivana etc.
Yes, the count is very very less compared to billions of humanity. Your immediate question is how do you believe in
those? Did you experienced? My answer is not yet, but I am experimenting on myself on a regular basis. There are
people in esh and blood beside me who are seeing the light in the fore head and hearing sounds with in. there are
many who could levitate in air still alive. Do I have to wait until Government funds a project on this and the
scientiests prove some thing? If you have cancer and you are going to die anyway do you dare risking some
alternative medicine. People are in a dire need. No one has the time to wait until science proves GOD or NO GOD in
the lab.
But, If we are so lazy,skeptical and biased to put the e ort and soleley rely on the reasoning of the mind and the
entertaining ego then it is not correct. Please set up an unbiased dedicated team of people who will risk self
experimentation on these yogic techniques. Why dedicated people? Becuase it is not an hours or days lab job to
observe the ndings.
Then we have every right to be a critic. Tagging ourselves as Theist or Atheist will not help a bit and waste of time.
krishna
Strange! The so called Hi Tech Gurus using science as an every tool for their existence irrespective of their
preachings. They need science the moment they wake up or open their eyes…they need electricity, they need
mobile phone even latest iphone, desires all the scienti c methods of travel or scienti c utilities for their well being
including lavish ashramas or mesmarising outlooks and even vigourous publicity of their own promotions in the
shape of not less than a song of Bollywood movie in the websites or internet..In this scenario where is their stand
on arguing science is worthless? Shame of their comments on science being using science in their breath of the
day!!! One Guru frequently used to say there is no GOD and even a Bu alo thinks a big Bu alo is it’s GOD..then I
put a question who is bu alo the Devotees? or the Guru?
sreeg
Modern day science does not reveal anything other than theories which has some pro t motives, second thing
what you believe as science is not the only science, these guru’s o er spiritual science, which is di erent from
material science but nevertheless it’s a science,just by researching some sick people you can’t conclude that whole
humanity is sick,only if you have answers for each and every question that exist in the universe, then probably you
have a right to criticise someone who is beyond your value,if not try to search for a true meaning.
Ranganath R
Sreeg,
You are badly in need of education about what Science is, what its aims and objectives are and its methods of
exploring phenomenon and application of such ndings in advancing the quality of our life.
Not all uses of science are completely materialistic. With technology, we can make and enjoy music better and
other hobbies are made more pleasurable by scienti c advances in making and doing things better.
If you cannot describe, explain or formulate cogently the meaning of the term ‘spiritual science’, it will be just a
weasel word, that has been thrown around and abused by Hindu Swamis and Acharyas.
Do you have the answers to all the questions of the life and Universe?! Which does not look like from the utter
rubbish that you are talking. Then why are you criticizing skepticism?!.
No wonder you ended your nonsense with another weasel term ‘search for true meaning’!Happy searching in the
wilderness of ‘Sanatana spiritualism’!
Ranjith
People can claim everything by science.Maybe if one visits the school in ashram Coimbatore will know the impact of
understanding how to use science in the right direction.using science for well being is more sensible than to prove
existence..
yssubramanyam
what is scientist? is it his brain? tongue which blaws?is it esh? every signal is sent to brain. is the brain which claims
ME, I, MY ..what is the origin? mere consciousness. it can not be tested in laboratory. you have to simply surrender
to god nature. your eyes and intellect is not the proper scale to measure. what is true to you is not true to other
living species.
TJ
What complete nonsense are you rambling on about? Consciousness can indeed be studied in a laboratory. Why
else would there be the entire eld of neuroscience?
yssubramanyam
science is not realistic tool to know what is consciousness.
Satish Chandra
August 30, 2014 at 12:01 am
Actually, science is the best tool we have to understand consciousness. What other alternatives do you think exist?
Certainly not the whishy-washy stu that gurus like Jaggi Vasudev peddle.
Subhajit
August 31, 2014 at 4:37 pm
Science is incomplete tool. If you reject other alternative tools without understanding or disproving them..then you
are not scienti c… Did you see Newton is scienti c in perspective of recent World views..?
yssubramanyam
do not take any body as reference? how can salt know the origin of sea? either egg knows its future or the chick
knows its origin. you need to self enquire?
science is part of universal intelligence.
Captain Mandrake
Yssubramanyam,
**do not take any body as reference? how can salt know the origin of sea? either egg knows its future or the chick
knows its origin. you need to self enquire?
science is part of universal intelligence.**
All this Is total gibberish. Let us get back to your rst post.
**science is not realistic tool to know what is consciousness.**
As Satish pointed out science is the only tool we have to know/understand anything. You seem to suggest that
there is some alternative tool out there.
Please let us know what this alternative tool is and how can it be con rmed that what this supposed tool tell us
about anything is realistic in any sense.
I would also request Subhajit to answer the same question.
It would also help if people like you and Subhajit make a e ort to understand what “burden of evidence/proof” is
and where it lies.
vicnada
As we are constituted as human beings, there is only one way to knowledge–thru perception and thinking. Natural
science as a methodology of inquiry presumes there are limits to our perception, namely, limits based on our
having physical senses only that can be expanded by tools such as telescopes, microscopes and the like. There are
those (some argue Jaggi Vasudev is one of these and I take no position one way or the other) who have opened
inner organs of perception that lie dormant unless a human being develops them through meditative exercises.
With su cient goodwill, one can at least consider the possibility that the new perceptions available through
previously dormant organs could be thoughtfully (and scienti cally) developed into a knowledge of a world that was
previously unattainable. However, “skeptics” will always have the right to deny the existence of this world just as
blind people have every right to deny such a thing as light exists or the deaf that sound exists. Commonsense, and
some good will can go a long way to at least having a rational conversation about something that might be possible
even if one hasn’t attained clairvoyant capacities.
Captain Mandrake
Vicnada,
You too do not understand what “burden of proof/evidence” is or where it lies. Also you do not understand what a
“special pleading fallacy” is. That is the problem when you confuse gulibilty with goodwill. In short you will be
laughed out of any freethinkers forum.
vicnada
Had I the wish to join you in your so-called “freethinkers forum”, I would heed your warning against the ridicule that
apparently greets all who don’t “freely think” as you do. Those swaddled in the comfortable limits of materialistic
science have reason to fear unbinding their imagination to include the unseen universe. Con ating “goodwill” with
“gullibility” (yes, they share double ell’s) is a dodge. Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking
forums”?
Captain Mandrake
**Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?**
Because people like you do not know the rst thing about reason. You are yet to answer the question I asked in an
earlier post. Here it is again.
**Please let us know what this alternative tool is and how can it be con rmed that what this supposed tool tell us
about anything is realistic in any sense.**
The second part of the question (how can it be con rmed…) is very important. Please answer the question without
resorting to special pleadings. If you can not answer it then stop hanging out in freethought forums. Go and hang
out with quacks like Miss Cleo and Deepak Chopra instead.
vicnada
**Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?**
*Because people like you do not know the rst thing about reason. You are yet to answer the question I asked in an
earlier post. Here it is again.*
Having you acknowledge your arrogance, if tacitly, is satisfying enough to have one more go.
**Please let us know what this alternative tool is and how can it be con rmed that what this supposed tool tell us
about anything is realistic in any sense.**
I don’t think what is called for is an “alternative tool” to replace science. That’s where you are stuck in your inquiry.
Science–a tool of thoughtful methodology developed to build consensus around what we call reality–is required for
human beings because of our constitution: we are built 1) to perceive and 2) to think about what we perceive. We
must approach the world rst as separate from it. The world is given by way of perception but useful concepts
about reality are only formed over time by linking perceptions logically and meaningfully.
Science is the perfect tool insofar as it demands rigor, repeatability and consonance in it’s results BUT there is
nothing in the thoughtful discipline of science that precludes the previously unseen world EXCEPT the prejudice
held by some that this unseen world does not exist.
My question is simply this: If there is an unseen world that can be accessed (perceived) once meditative discipline is
engaged to develop the slumbering organs of perception, why could not that world be investigated to thoughtfully
new body of knowledge? The scienti c approach required might need modi cation as the world approached might
not follow the natural laws we know apply to the physical world (I don’t think anyone expects angels to line up for
double-blind experimentation, for example) but might there be a world as “objective” behind the veil of the physical
that exists here? And might this this physical world be so important just because it stands still long enough for us to
develop these scienti c skills and thoughtful methods?
*The second part of the question (how can it be con rmed…) is very important. Please answer the question without
resorting to special pleadings. If you can not answer it then stop hanging out in freethought forums. Go and hang
out with quacks like Miss Cleo and Deepak Chopra instead.*
Sadly, one of the rst signs of prejudice is the name-calling that follows so quickly when confronting something
outside one’s comfort zone. It is the bully’s mask least someone see through to what is quaking at the core. It’s
often a hard blow that is required to wake one out of the materialistic dream.
Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon of great repute and scientist of the highest calibre, gleaned enough experiences
of another world during a prolonged coma to convert him from his “skepticism”. But he is no less a scientist now
than he was before. He is simply at work integrating concepts that include this world into a contiguous reality with
one he mastered as natural science.
Captain Mandrake
**Having you acknowledge your arrogance, if tacitly, is satisfying enough to have one more go.**
Wrong again. The fact that you do not know the rst thing about reason is why me asking you to not resort to
special pleadings and learn about burden of evidence appeared to you as tonal arrogance. Perhaps you would have
picked up on that if you knew how “not to beg the question” as you did here **Why should tonal arrogance replace
reason in said “freethinking forums”**.
Also you have not said anything new to convince me that you are no di erent from quacks like Miss Cleo and
Deepak Chopra.
The question still remains “Please let us know what this alternative tool is and how can it be con rmed that what
this supposed tool tell us about anything is realistic in any sense”.
Makes no di erence to me whether you call it alternative tool or meditative discipline. You have not answered “how
can it be con rmed…” part of the question yet. How do we know what you picked up from your meditative trance is
not something that just made up?
Also, Eban Alexanders hallucinations are not evidence of anything other than his hallucinations. He also belongs in
the company of Miss Cleo and Deepak Chopra.
Captain Mandrake
**Eben Alexander, a neurosurgeon of great repute and scientist of the highest calibre, gleaned enough experiences
of another world during a prolonged coma to convert him from his “skepticism”. But he is no less a scientist now
than he was before.**
Apparently Eban Alexander’s reputation was mud even before he claimed to have seen a girl riding a butter y
during his coma. He again lied about veri able things (the weather, and whether or not his coma was medically
induced) that happened around the time he was in coma. But we are being asked to believe his BS about him
seeing his sister riding a butter y during his coma for which he can not give any evidence anyway.
This guy does belong in the company of Miss Cleo.
rajath
April 5, 2014 at 5:59 pm
Sir,
You have written such a big article on your fault ndings with JAggi’s teachings. I totally respect your views. I can
only tell that there are a few things, which cannot be grasped by your mind or intellect. Once you experience that
rst hand, all the ndings, the rights and the wrongs vanish away. Science is always progressive- They nd new
things daily. Spirituality is just unveiling the truths, which you already know at some deeper level. What you said
might just be true now- but jaggis views have to be respected too. Take care
Pyhtoria
April 10, 2014 at 4:45 pm
Vasudev personally stated that he’s not a scientist nor claiming to be one. He said that he reads all scienti c
ndings online when he has time.
You can’t understand what his understanding is like, nor what his intent is all about. He’s not wrong, even when he’s
wrong about scienti c classi cation, get it? He also said once that galaxies turn supernovae, not stars. This is also
scienti cally wrong, isn’t it? But this is just like not knowing what’s outside your memory. It’s nothing about insight
or understanding, clarity etc.
Simply, your point of view is wrong when judging him.
Sanjay Chakravarty
June 11, 2014 at 11:19 pm
We are discussing science vs. spirituality. If science is building theories based on observations, then I must say that
modern science has changed its theories so many times over history, as we know. First atom was like this, then it
became like that, now it is like this. First it was Newtonian mechanics, then Einsteinian, then something that falsi es
both. In contrast, the spiritual theories based on observations of the human mind have remained the same over
ages. Even today, one can reach the same conclusions that our Upanishadic seers did.
Now, the di erence is that science, as we understand it, is all object science. Spirituality is science of the mind, or
subject science. Does spirituality unlock the secrets of universe? Sure, it does, but not in an objective way as science
understands it. Since all observations depend on the observer, the understanding of the observer gives the key to
the observed, that’s what spirituality says. Not convinced, Mr. tArkika? Please refer to Einstein’s general theory of
relativity.
Captain Mandrake
June 13, 2014 at 8:42 am
**We are discussing science vs. spirituality. If science is building theories based on observations, then I must say
that modern science has changed its theories so many times over history, as we know. First atom was like this, then
it became like that, now it is like this. First it was Newtonian mechanics, then Einsteinian, then something that
falsi es both. In contrast, the spiritual theories based on observations of the human mind have remained the same
over ages. Even today, one can reach the same conclusions that our Upanishadic seers did.**
Every religious fool has come up with this kind of an objection (it keeps changing) to science. Here
(http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Science_keeps_changing ) is an atheist who has done a good job of
addressing this issue. A cut and paste from the link shown below.
**In order to understand this issue, it must rst be understood what this nebulous “change” is, that the objectors
speak of. There’s two di erent kinds of “changing”:
1. Updating – A process of learning and improving where the knowledge or object is changed into a better state.
2. Resetting – A process of replacing the knowledge or object with a completely new, and contradictory set of
knowledge or objects.
Science gets accused of #2, when it’s really doing #1.

Science doesn’t consider computer technology unreliable because they’re changed to be faster, with more memory.
Science doesn’t consider a cook unreliable because he/she learned how to prepare a particular meal faster and
more healthily.
Science doesn’t consider an archer to be unreliable because he/she found a new way to increase his/her precision
at hitting the bulls-eye.
To criticize science for changing is to criticize the very act of learning.**
The nal sentence hits the nails on the head. What the religious fools are objecting to is really the act of learning.
Shame on them!
Ananth
Dude, there’s no point debating with such people. There’s absolutely no common ground – the (stupid) axioms they
start o with aren’t compatible with yours. Unless of course you’re trolling them, in which case more power to you.
Krishna
How do you know which axioms are stupid and which ones are wise?
Balamurali
I have basic question. Instead of attacking him from the back like this, why don’t you have a debate and also
arrange for a telecast? we will see which side has truth.
gans
June 15, 2014 at 9:42 pm
Indians are quite passionate when it comes to Vedas and upanishads. Nothing wrong, but in reality, most people
have trouble in implementing the teachings or techniques. People who criticize science often send their children to
modern education hoping they would become scientists,engineers or doctors. They want to believe, but have this
dilemma.
Scientists are passionate people. I am one of them, but I am open to the idea that modern science has just started
to understand how little we know about how the universe works. Con icts exist even among scientists. Even the
molecular structure of water continues to be a puzzle. It’s an interesting challenge though.
Science is yet to embrace the possibility of exploring the world by a di erent approach. People – that includes
doctors and scientists around the world are only now beginning to recognize the bene ts of Yoga and meditation
created by ancient Indians.
Science and technology are two edge swords. I am of the opinion that the focus of these gurus is to help us to be
good human beings, so that we can do what we do better. If scientists like me can follow these principles, we can
do science better and ethically as well.
After all, yoga is a science of body and mind!
Raja
Yoga and Meditation bene t the people to the extent of being a physical and mental exercise like reducing pain,
anxiety etc., It is not recognized as a tool to solve scienti c problems. Please don’t generalize the e ects of Yoga
and Meditation. Our ancient Scientists and Mathematicians used proofs and experiments to come up with their
theories. There is not even record stating that Aryabhatta, Bhaskara used Meditation as a tool to come up with their
proofs let alone anyone tested it.
Nabatanu Das
July 21, 2014 at 12:36 pm
The history of evolution in scienti c ideas is a testimony in itself that its search for the truth has not ended, it is still
on! The reality as understood in Newtonian view looks no longer the same in Quantum world. It is even more
enigmatic in “string theory”. It shows that science is still struggling hard to conceive the fundamentals of reality. So,
what is the point of arguing with things that is in transition itself ? Being a hardliner makes it a “religious belief”
only.
The fact that these revolutionary scientists could bring in a new view is an indication that they were not satis ed
with what was prevalent scienti c understanding of their times. Instead of holding onto these views as “religion”
and “ultimate”, they still went ahead to seek the truth, based on what they envisage as a likely “possibility”. By the
way, they also made their observations in their minds, often through mathematical abstracts and thought
experiments (in subtler dimensions).
The spiritual world has its ways of observing realities and has well-de ned disciplines for that. Only the means and
subject of observation are di erent, the goal is still the same – seeking the truth about reality.
Without following those methods/means, how do you know the view of reality as experienced are not the correct? I
would rather refrain from thinking that targeting Mr. Jaggi Vasudev is NOT the goal here.
So, trying to see science vs spirituality would be a very novice idea, albeit exciting. It servers little purpose so far as
knowing the truth is concerned.
However, there are physicists and scientists who looked at the same subject with an open mind and tried to see if
how Science and Spirituality correlate, if at all. I highly recommend to read them.
Fritjof Capra (physicist and author of “Tao of Physics), Moni Bhoumik (scientist and author of “Code name God”,
Roger Penrose (sceientist and author of “Shadows of the Mind”) are three books – I can readily recall – in that
direction.
Hopefully, that will help broaden our views.
Captain Mandrake
July 26, 2014 at 8:05 pm
**The fact that these revolutionary scientists could bring in a new view is an indication that they were not satis ed
with what was prevalent scienti c understanding of their times. Instead of holding onto these views as “religion”
and “ultimate”, they still went ahead to seek the truth, based on what they envisage as a likely “possibility”. By the
way, they also made their observations in their minds, often through mathematical abstracts and thought
experiments (in subtler dimensions).**
Yeah, but these scientists are always constrained by evidence. They never make shit up like the charlatan Vasudev.
This idiot and other spiritualists do not realize that their hallucinations are evidence of nothing but their
hallucinations. It says nothing what so ever about the world.
**Hopefully, that will help broaden our views.**
No. Your approach will only muddle the search for truth. And I suspect that is the goal of Vasudev.
Nabatanu Das
July 28, 2014 at 1:10 pm
Kindly read what the scientists say and go by, including “Stephen Hawking”. “Hypothesis” is always something
made-up. Please read what he clearly says about all these “hypothesis” (Brief History of Time) and how the success
and failure of experiments are viewed in the world of science, in the context of a hypothesis.
What I sense from your ungracious comments is that the objective of these discussions is more a personal attack
on someone whose views do not conform to your thoughts and beliefs. Well, be happy with your ideas and views
about science. But please do not leave a bad taste in the mouth. I am not interested in belief-vs-belief ghts.
Captain Mandrake
August 2, 2014 at 10:55 pm
Mr. Das,
**Kindly read what the scientists say and go by, including “Stephen Hawking”. “Hypothesis” is always something
made-up. Please read what he clearly says about all these “hypothesis” (Brief History of Time) and how the success
and failure of experiments are viewed in the world of science, in the context of a hypothesis.**
Yes I read that book long time ago. Do not remember Hawking ever taking an “anything goes approach” to
hypothesis. Hypothesis have to falsi able to be taken seriously. Show me one falsi able hypothesis that Vasudev
came up with. Falsi able as in showing exactly how it can be falsi ed. And then show me how he constructed an
experiment designed to falsify the said hypothesis and what were the outcome of these experiments. Oh, and btw
the experiments should be veri able. If you can not do that then have the common decency to admit that Vasudev
makes shit up.
If you do not understand what a falsi able hypothesis is then please read this.
http://scienceblogs.com/ethicsandscience/2007/01/31/basic-concepts-falsi able/
Nabatanu Das
August 3, 2014 at 12:26 pm
Mr Mandrake,
This is what Stephen Hawking has written in this book

“Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter
how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the
result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by nding even a single
observation that disagrees with the predictions of theory.” (Chapter 1, Page 11)
I have also seen youtube videos of Mr Vasudev saying that do not believe or disbelieve what I say. Just try out the
method I am o ering and see for yourself. Have only as much trust on the method as you believe that the person
lling petrol in your car is not lling it with explovsives. Try it and go by what you are convinced about only. That
means it is ok to discard it if it does not convince you. This sounds a fair approach to me to accept or dismiss
something after experiment.
Winning or losing an argument is of very little consequence. If the search is for the reality ( by this word I mean: the
fundamental eld /law that governs the universe and gave rise to our known universe ), scientists still have not
reached the conclusion. But they have able to unify three forces so far and only one is still left out. If we reach there
someday, and I hope we will, it will be truly wonderful.
There are interviews in YouTube of Dr. Mani bhaumika, a renowned scientist, about consciousness and physics. Dr
Rozer Penroze is also pointing to the same. Please have a look at them too, to see how the scientists are
approaching this concept of consciousness and physical reality (” Our brain has been designed to experience the
oneness”). The books I had mentioned in my rst posts are all dealing with that by the scientist today. Again, I am
not asking you to get convinced because someone has said (be Scientists or mr. Vasudev). But may be it will be a
worthwhile exercise to explore this subject, at least once through the eyes of the scientists.
This is my last post as my intention was not to argue for the sake of it, I just wanted to make aware what all
explorations are going on and how liberal those thoughts are!
Regards
Nabatanu
Captain Mandrake
August 3, 2014 at 10:57 pm
Mr. Das,
Nothing you quoted from Hawking’s book says that you can take an anything goes approach to hypothesis. The
hypothesis still has to be falsi able. You still do not seems to understand that.
Let us get back to what you said in your earlier post.
**The spiritual world has its ways of observing realities and has well-de ned disciplines for that. Only the means
and subject of observation are di erent, the goal is still the same – seeking the truth about reality.**
I asked you to present one falsi able hypothesis that Vasudev came up with. Show how the claim can be falsi ed.
Show how he constructed an experiment designed to falsify the said hypothesis. Present veri able data from the
experiment and what kind of conclusions he drew from the data.
If you can show a single example we can agree that these people have the capability to seek the truth about reality
as you said. But since you refuse show a single instance of that I can only conclude Vasudev is a quack and you are
a fool.
Captain Mandrake
August 4, 2014 at 1:05 am
**Our brain has been designed to experience the oneness**
Idiotic statement irrespective of who said it.
Captain Mandrake
**Again, I am not asking you to get convinced because someone has said (be Scientists or mr. Vasudev). But may be
it will be a worthwhile exercise to explore this subject, at least once through the eyes of the scientists.**
What do you mean by **this subject**? So far you have not even presented a falsi able claim. How can anyone
study **this subject** with out presenting a falsi able claim?
Shriram
July 28, 2014 at 1:28 pm
I totally agree with you. I think “evidence” is the key word here, that di erentiates science from all the pseudo
science. Scientists, like spiritualists, have many exotic ideas about the world and its ways of functioning.
However, all these exotic ideas remain just that – the ideas. They never become theory unless they are supported
by evidence. Moreover, when a scientist proposes a theory, it is never taken by the rest of the scienti c community
at its face value. Others replicate the experiments to see if the theory holds good, and also nd aws in it. This
falsi cation process is in fact the root of the scienti c development. So their is a big journey for any new idea, from
hypothesis to an accepted theory. And this is the major di erence between scienti c and spiritually driven
theories…. the later don’t bother to bear the burden of this long journey to be accepted. In the later world, “who
said it” carries more weight than “what was said”.
Sanjay Chakravarty
July 28, 2014 at 5:16 pm
I beg to di er. The Vedas and the Upanishads are only asking the people to walk on the path, using the tools
mentioned by them, whether meditation, contemplation, karma-yoga, devotion, whatever. These are tools, or
theories, or models, whatever we wish to call them, which need to be tried and replicated, just like any scienti c
theory.
The di erence between science and spirituality is that when one scientist makes a claim of some kind, others
question him, but also try to replicate the claim. This indicates an open mind to try and nd out. If it doesn’t work
out, the theory is discarded. In spirituality, there are few takers, who are willing to use the tools and walk the path.
There are many, however, who would challenge and shoot down the theories, without budging an inch to try and
replicate the experiments.
Captain Mandrake
July 30, 2014 at 7:13 am
**I beg to di er. **
Beg and di er all you want. Also keep on harping about other ways of knowing. Would not make an iota of
di erence. The freethinking community will continue to treat quacks like you and Vasudev exactly the same way
they treat Miss Cleo. With derision and mockery.
Captain Mandrake
July 29, 2014 at 10:38 am
**I think “evidence” is the key word here, that di erentiates science from all the pseudo science. Scientists, like
spiritualists, have many exotic ideas about the world and its ways of functioning.**
There is nothing wrong in having exotic ideas. But the ideas themselves must be falsi able. The spiritualist fools do
not understand this simple requirement. This is another major di erence between science and pseudoscience.
Nabatanu Das
July 30, 2014 at 9:10 am
Mr Mandrake,
I do not understand what quali cation or right you have got to call other fools, quacks etc. This is not the way any
healthy discussion / arguments happen in any science community, by calling names!
“I beg to di er” does not mean “beg” – google it out to see what it means.
I do not hope/want this to be published. But I would like the moderator to check if that is the quality of discussion
they want on this site which claims to be ‘nirmukta’, of course unless Mr Mandrake himself is the moderator. Then
there is nothing more to expect!
Captain Mandrake
Mr. Das,
Anyone who sells other ways of knowing is a quack. And those who follow the quack are fools, ie these people are
being fooled.
Let us see what you said in one of your posts.
**The spiritual world has its ways of observing realities and has well-de ned disciplines for that. Only the means
and subject of observation are di erent, the goal is still the same – seeking the truth about reality.**
You can not say that and expect not to be mocked. OK, tell me how you or Vasudev can gure out what is the
acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the earth using means and subject of observation that are di erent
from that used by a scientist? What kind of tools and methods does spirituality o er you to get an answer to that
question? I can easily tell you what tools and measurement devices I need to answer the question. I need a
pendulum, a ruler to measure its length, and a stop watch to measure time period of oscillation.
The fact that Vasudev can not answer that question using his spiritualist tools and methods and yet makes millions
by claiming that spirituality is another way to seeking truth about reality makes him a quack. And people who fall
for his quackery are fools.
There are di erent ways to handle these quacks and fools. I prefer derision and mockery. Good natured and mild
mannered freethinkers might prefer a more friendly approach. I can certainly have a healthy debate with those
freethinkers on the pros and cons of each approach.
But a healthy debate with you is impossible.
Shiva
July 28, 2014 at 7:23 am
Right. He uses the little bit of science words and terminologies and lowers science and technology.Without that he
would not be having his bikes , rovers, golf,beatles records,and the khush life he has.He has a good level of
energy,his so called enlightenment is just a pretty high level of lucky ash of conciousness, not enlightenment.Good
enough for dumb people and some not so dumb people to follow.But he is quite a few steps from the real thing;ie
enlightenment.Good enough though,he does’nt kill people or rip o people. I hope.
Captain Mandrake
**Good enough though,he does’nt kill people or rip o people.**
Not sure about killing but he does rip people o . Here is something he teaches. He calls it innerengineering. The
online version costs $150 and the live version an arm and a leg.
https://www.innerengineering.com/
Some of the claims about the bene ts of the course are shown below.
**91% of Inner Engineering participants gained a deeper sense of inner peace. 87% found improved emotional
balance. 80% increased mental clarity.**
Hilarious!
Balamurali
Have you tried that course? I will pay for you.
STEVEN KAGE
August 24, 2014 at 2:48 pm
The problem with this article’s reasoning, is that even if Jaggi has incorrect views of science, it does not disprove the
validity of Yoga practices or obtained results. The ip side of of any criticism of Yoga by scientists who say Jaggi
doesn’t understand science, is of course, that scientists don’t understand Yoga. The fact is, Yoga IS a science which
operates to elevate human consciousness, and the results of its practice always vary depending upon innumerable
qualities of the student & the teacher; results therefore do not have the degree of predictability that satisfy the rigid
requirements that scientists demand. Jaggi may indeed be a fake, an impostor, a con-man, or just a dumb ass, but
until one engages in a dedicated & serious study of Yoga, damning the practice can only be from a perspective of
ignorance. Ultimately, it really matters very little for personal betterment if there is or isn’t an understanding of how
chemicals react or the cosmos was formed, but it matters greatly how much knowledge an individual has of
methods to improve personal equipoise & awareness of the intricacies of human function which will foster
advancement to higher levels of personal evolution.
Captain Mandrake
August 25, 2014 at 7:06 pm
**The fact is, Yoga IS a science which operates to elevate human consciousness, and the results of its practice
always vary depending upon innumerable qualities of the student & the teacher; results therefore do not have the
degree of predictability that satisfy the rigid requirements that scientists demand. **
Don’t you get tired of contradicting yourself in the same sentence? If something “IS a science” then that something
should “satisfy the rigid requirements that scientists demand”.
STEVEN KAGE
June 8, 2015 at 10:54 am
I would only “get tired” of contradicting myself if it had any relevance or e ect upon my yoga practice. Yoga is
ACTION, not word games. Whatever I SAY, or you SAY, doesn’t really matter; what we DO does.
Adarsh Raghuram
Excellent article.
garreth
What does the scienti c method constitute? Feynman on the scienti c method:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPapE-3FRw
Captain Mandrake
Nice one, particularly the part about vague claims and methods of evaluation.
Senthil
Jaggi Vasudev’s Isha Ashramam occupied the forests and elephant routes in vellingiri hills and constructed 4 lakh
square feet building without any single approval from bodies. Govt ordered demolition — tamilnadu based
wikileaks kind of site savukku revealed and wrote a very detailed article about this. he is neither logical nor honest.
Captain Mandrake
Senthil,
**Jaggi Vasudev’s Isha Ashramam occupied the forests and elephant routes in vellingiri hills and constructed 4 lakh
square feet building without any single approval from bodies. **
And this crook was complaining about political corruption ahead of the elections.
Champak
January 31, 2015 at 10:12 pm
If he is a honest guru let him reply with in 15 days to the charges of illegal occupation of Elephant routes in Vellingiri
Hills and do not make a mockery of his ecological concern and Tree plantation drives.
stalin
April 26, 2015 at 6:44 pm
When government ordered for demolition..dont blab…The land was already in use. The savukku is saying the land
was bought from Lakshmi Mills owner..If so how u r saying isha has occupaid forest land.
andy
I got interested in this guy as someone sent me a video on Whats App about him. I spent entire day listening to his
clever You Tube clips. Initially he impressed me but when I examined him with more open mind, I could see the
chinks in his armor.
In one of his sermons he is saying there is no Diabetes in America as scientists there have started adding Vitamin
D3 in bread making process since 1950s. As a physician practising in USA, nothing can be further from truth.
Diabetes is really very common in USA and bread may be one of the many causes.
I think these Pseudo Gurus exploit the basic need in every human being to have “The Experience”. Most of the
people want someone else to do the hardwork and provide them with the answers. There is really a need for
someone to stand up and expose these frauds.
Bala
Tarkika,
After going through this and several other articles on this site, I am not quite sure what your group’s objective as a
whole is. If your claim is that Ancient India was not scienti cally advanced (far more so than any other group of
people at that time in the world) then you have not explored world history enough. If your claim is that the Vedas
and the related texts such as Brahmanas, Upanishads and Puranas are devoid of any scienti c value and/or
observations then you have not read them or assimilated them as yet.
Last but not the least, this is not to be misconstrued as any sort of defense of any godman. Perhaps most godmen
understand basic science. How many in your group can claim to understand, read and write basic Sanskrit and
claim to have read through the works in question?
It is about time people with scienti c background really sat down to do a thorough study on some of these ancient
works and try and correlate the ancients’ ndings with what we know from modern science! Need of the hour!
Best Regards!
Vijay
March 4, 2015 at 6:35 pm
Agree with u Bala, but this is not exactly what the group is discussing(I know its diverted a lot). I think we are in a
discussion whether JV is correct or not, or let me be little exible, if he is incorrect on physics basis then is his
incorrectness incorrect as a whole??
Thanks
vijaya
March 8, 2015 at 5:50 am
I am not sure of this extensive criticism on Vasudev. I am a scientist, a prcticing physician in USA and have been
living in USA over 40 yrs. I was not satis ed with the science and its methods becasue I am not interested in the
mater that is already in existance. I started wodering – who am I and what is my purpose? Science could not explain
this becasue this question arises in oneself when they really ask themselves and go beyond the matter. I do not
desclaim the scientist but they are still looking with in the BOX. One would get this questiong “who am I” when you
start getting out of the box and look outside. Why don’t you and others like you learn transendental meditation and
spend atleast 6 hours a day and just few years on meditaion and nd out what you will discover. Just imagine how
much of our life is spent sitting in the class room day after day and year after year learning about the nature and
then go on trying to understand its workings with so called scienti c methods. we simply waste our short precious
time on this earth doing this instead of going beyond to the ultimate truth of this matter. I will assure you that you
will not be disappointed. Please do not waste your time.
Dr Kavan
April 4, 2015 at 3:20 pm
I had listened to a few of Sadhguru’s online videos and was impressed in the way he presented eastern philosophy.
However after watching
http://www.ishafoundation.org/blog/lifestyle/food/food-and-lunar-eclipses-bad-combo/
I was shocked realise how totally ignorant he was on very basic science. It is a pity when those who have good
communication skills are unaware of the limits of there knowledge and talk absolute nonsense. I then looked for a
review and found this well written piece on Sadhguru.
Santhosh
April 13, 2015 at 10:48 pm
I hope you are passionate about proving Jaggi doesn’t understand science and you are the master of it.
Please add your insight for the following video as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpkYRKz3-eA
Mony Singh
May 5, 2015 at 10:39 pm
Jaggi Vasudev is enlightened, there is no doubt as far as the science of body features go, he has all the signs that
show that he has gone through the process. However, As Osho said in one of his discourses, enlightenment does
not make one super intelligent, you remain what you were as far as your abilities, your intellect and your level of
understanding goes. If this was not true than Narsingdatta ji maharaj would have dropped making bidis (Indian
Cigarettes) because why would an enlightened master pump negative stu into the society that causes cancer?
Narsingdatta should have dropped making bidis, should have opened up and ashram like Jaggi vasudev and should
have lived lavishly on seekers money.
Even if Jaggi Vasudev has something to o er to the real seeker, the problem is that Isha foundation is set in such a
way that unless you show them that you are a multi millionaire from the west, you will never get a chance to be in
front of Jaggi Vasudev and ask questions that can help you come closer to self realization.
For seekers, I would strongly recommend to listen to Osho without bringing in your conscious/active analyzing
mind and let your unconscious steer you in the right direction. Just as Buddha said: appo divo bhavo (Be your own
light).
namshivaya
June 6, 2015 at 10:46 pm
yoga is good.
but why you should fool people?
vellingiri is already a fertile land, with good rain.
how can you boast as if you are protecting the forest?
why cant you choose an area where there is less rainfall and make it your ashram?
why cant you live a simple life, while you preach others to be simple? why you use hummer? helicopter, ve star
hotel?
You are good in communication, I appreciate you for making well educated persons a fools and make them your
followers.
you say you have picture on vellingiri in ur eyes. if you are NOT SELFISH, you will not tell these bullshit information
and spoil nature around vellingiri.
In the name of Yoga, you are spoiling nature around vellingiri.
there is no di erence between you and a pimp. you are raping the nature. pls get our of vellingiri. leave the nature
as it has to be.
I know nothing can be done to you, as being a pimp you know how to owe the customers.
as long as those educated fools are with you, you can rule. enjoy jaggi!
ķrishna. P.
July 18, 2015 at 10:14 am
Believers of hindu vedas pls stop arguing with captain mandrake. He declare himself as captain of his ship. So no
point giving opinion. He wants tools before proving science!!??Knowledge of vedas is not science but far beyond
that. Science cant explain dream. What tools we need? But in vedas ,sure you can. You have to be a believer rst.
No need tools.
He is still in that level(hypothesis,materials,tools,procedures,method,observation,result,conclusion……). He does not
understand that he is in the eld of science but trying not to understand knowledge of vedas. He can hear here
only the present but in outer space, cant. But yogis can hear anything from any space n time. Ofcause our captain
who is still at that level cant or never want to understand us. LET HIM BE AS THE WAY HE WANT. DONT WORRY. BYE
keshava shet revankar

July 23, 2015 at 11:29 am
Why those Vedic scientists could not design a good toilet. Since 5000 years they were defecating in the open.
ķrishna. P.
July 24, 2015 at 9:55 pm
We can evaluate someone through the way they answer a question. But we also can judge someone through the
question raised by them. We should be careful when asking question because people will label us wrongly. We
need certain amount of knowledge in a eld to raise question.
The way human defecate n where they defecate is two di erent thing. Something like how we have sex n where we
have sex. Am sure you n me need to know how to make proper sex. This is written in kamasuthra. And no ñeed to
teach u or me where to make sex. Proper way to defecate is taught but where to defecate u decide. How u think
can b explained but where you think who cares. How to see god is important rather than to ask where to see god.
So therefore dont waste time searching why vedas never explain where to defecate.
Kamal
Science, as yet, is too immature to understand the universe.
You never know S.JV maybe true. I speak of the experiences of Yoga: an incredibly powerful technology that lies
within all of us.
Sanatana
October 27, 2015 at 3:47 am
Sorry . I m not sure what Sadguru meant when he said what he said but it is equally true that scientists often land
up saying what they do not know. Modern science has been built on a plethora of wrong assumptions though there
are a few partial truths. I, myself from a rigorous science background am saying this. My own work ( passion) for
past few years has been to unite all Vedic symbolism, particle physics , mythological symbolism,linguistics,
chemistry, quantum physics, music, geography,psychology, genetics, evolution, arithmetic, cosmology et al and
thus establish the uni ed theory of everything. It unites almost everything and much more. Large part of this
project is over and hopefully, it won’t take long before I complete it and lay it down before u. What is more it unites
all the religions and all the mythologies as well. So, let us not be too carried away by the tall claims of modern
science and neither by the bigotry of religion.
Ravi
My own work ( passion) for past few years has been to unite all Vedic symbolism, particle physics ,

mythological symbolism,linguistics, chemistry, quantum physics, music, geography,psychology, genetics,
evolution, arithmetic, cosmology et al and thus establish the uni ed theory of everything
Have you considered Lithium?
The last guy I met who said he was writing a book (he really was, don’t know if he nished it) to unify EVERYTHING,
never attended college, and I think he did not even nish high-school (US). I talked to him for a couple of hours
(traveling, nothing better to do) and he was completely clueless about how real science is done, but nevertheless
knew every pseudoscience out there and could not obviously distinguish between them. So there he was: an
otherwise normal IQ guy, in a fantasy science land, believing he was an intellectual. There are of course, even more
clueless people in US, who would be interested in buying his books.
 myself from a rigorous science background am saying this

So whats this “rigorous science background”? Several PhDs, in each of those subjects, from well ranked universities?
Lots of science publications in reputable journals?
It certainly would not be some degree mill certi cates and blog posts, would it? :-).
Parantap
What I fail to understand is why don’t these scienti c enthusiasts work on the scriptures to nd something new? We
have a lot of ambiguity around dark matter and dark energy. I would love if they can clarify something new rather
than correlating what science has already proven to the past, trying to interpret by false pattern recognition to suit
their agenda. I am dying to see one study that reveals something new (and I’m sure a lot of us are waiting for it to
happen) that ba es the scienti c world. Then I’ll accept it graciously that our scriptures are so uber-scienti c. Until
then, please don’t pass o metaphysical philosophy as science.
R S Chakravarti
There are some things that science hasn’t explained: does the soul exist, what is death, is there reincarnation, etc. It
is not clear whether science will or can ever provide answers to the above. Astrology claims that the heavenly
bodies have e ects on us, beyond what is known to science. In my opinion there is empirical evidence that
astrology works, at least sometimes. I have no explanation. Maybe there are interactions which science has not yet
discovered. I think we should respect the scienti c method but also recognise its limitations. The study of Vedanta
certainly teaches us something beyond science, but it can’t teach us science! Also, we shouldn’t assert that Vedanta
comes to the same conclusions as current physical theories, which are subject to change with the passage of time.
Ravi
As a follow-up to the soul question below…
There is empirical evidence that astrology does not work.
The most cited paper being…

Carlson S. A double-blind test of astrology. Nature. 1985 Dec 5;318(6045):419-25.
There have been several studies on astrology. They all show that the predictions are no better than chance,
frequently worse.
kapil
I wish you had meditated before trying to understand jaggi. And I know how you scientists dismiss meditation as
hocus pocus. Unfortunately, science is claiming the same unquestioning status for itself as religion once did. You
must read Lyotard’s idea of postmodernism.
Ravi
how you scientists dismiss meditation as hocus pocus

Scientists don’t dismiss meditation as hocus pocus. Scientists dismiss hocus pocus claims made on behalf of
meditation.
 Unfortunately, science is claiming the same unquestioning status for itself as religion once did.
Spoken like a true postmodernist.
 You must read Lyotard’s idea of postmodernism.

You should also read Alan Sokal’s view of Lyotard’s view of post-modernism. Like most post-modernists, rather
than stay safely in the zone of social sciences, where he (Lyotard) can add some value (metanarratives), where
some loose talk goes with the territory, he also opens his mouth on science and reveals himself silly, way over-
reaching beyond his expertise; not di erent from JV, although the comparison is very unfair to Lyotard.
arun
What are your views on osho… pls comment
anonysubscribe
it seems that indians venerate science because of some kind of western colonial remnant which the British used to
undermine their culture. so indian gurus then use their ideas about science sometimes badly in trying to make their
point. it would be better for them to limit their comments to their metaphysics and not tread in dangerous loose
talk which can then destroy their ne points of philosophy or religions. Fritjof Capra wrote the tao of physics which
seemed to b critically acclaimed at the time. The Tao of Physics: An Exploration of the Parallels Between Modern
Physics and Eastern Mysticism is a 1975 book by physicist Fritjof Capra.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Physics.
even intelloigent people need to believe. they seek meaning in their lives. it is unfortunate that spiritual gurus need
to coopt science in this way, when it could be counter-productive. their ideas might have merit on ther own terms.
they should not quote any ‘science’ or western study, eg psychology, when they don’t fully understand both elds,
theirs and the ones they co-opt.
science also has its share of special interests and false steps and its progress might not be as smooth as this post
suggests.
it would be best to educate such gurus so that they don’t lose the main theme of their message.
Ravi
 it seems that indians venerate science because of some kind of western colonial remnant which the British
used to undermine their culture.
Indians don’t venerate science, at least no more than it as a path to better careers. If we did, we’d be talking
Astronomy, not Astrology and we’d laugh at Homeopathy. Astrology and Homeopathy hold a sway on our culture
because we don’t even understand the bare basics of science at the common man level and often at even the level
of the so-called science professionals. If we venerated science, we’d always ask: What does the data say?, in public
discourse. We don’t.
Using science is not about aping a more prosperous culture. Science is a universal method, not a western method,
because it plainly speaks to reality with clarity. It is about thinking in precise numbers vs. imprecise words; that
cannot be deemed culture speci c. It is to be used because it actually works everyday, not because it is “cool”.
 so indian gurus then use their ideas about science sometimes badly in trying to make their point.
A true guru is a teacher who properly understands the world. It should not mean a mystic. Our real gurus today
should be physicists, biologists and mathematicians. Our so-called gurus today are mostly charlatans who don’t
care about actual knowledge and wisdom and are only adepts at tugging at the emotional strings and insecurities
of the common man who has an extremely outdated understanding of the world.
We have idiots (education-wise, not in a social or political sense) for gurus because we don’t know who to put on a
pedestal. That’s our fault as a civic society and we should re ect on that and own up.
 it would be better for them to limit their comments to their metaphysics and not tread in dangerous loose
talk which can then destroy their ne points of philosophy or religions.
They won’t. If you want to know the ne points of philosophy, talk to an academic philosopher. If you want to know
the ne points of religion, talk to a theologian or a historian of religions. These gurus are not an authority on any
such things.
People need to intellectually mature. Our current crop of gurus won’t get us wisdom and enlightenment. A better
economy and better school systems will… schools that will help us understand the historical, philosophical and
intellectual struggles of the entire humanity, not these gurus.
Fritjof Capra wrote the tao of physics which seemed to b critically acclaimed at the time. The Tao of Physics
We have always been a culture that emphasized the past. I understand the value of having strong roots and a

cultural identity. But trying to t modern scienti c revolution into the models of the ancients is no longer a
productive exercise. We need to grow to a point where we do not feel an emotional need to do so, without losing
con dence in our identity. That will take generations.
 even intelloigent people need to believe.

Intelligent people want to know, not believe.
they seek meaning in their lives.


Intelligent people can turn to rational philosophy. There are entire schools of philosophy that deal with the
question of the meaning of life. A modern mind does not need mystical metaphysics. Mysticism is just a cheap
shortcut for those who are not equipped to deal with the complexities of philosophy.
That said, an average man does indeed want and need simpler answers to grand questions and that is the market
place these gurus exploit.
 it is unfortunate that spiritual gurus need to coopt science in this way, when it could be counter-productive.
their ideas might have merit on ther own terms.
They need to co-opt because they want to sound smarter and better educated than they really are. Their ideas are
not original at all, just recycled and repackaged platitudes.
 science also has its share of special interests and false steps and its progress might not be as smooth as this
post suggests.
Everything managed by people has at least some special interest in uence. These gurus do too. At least science has
a heavy dose of regulation that guards it against special interests, more than anything else today. When an interest
is recognized, it is weeded out. Scientists are still regarded as among those who have the highest commitment to
truth.
 it would be best to educate such gurus so that they don’t lose the main theme of their message.
We need to educate people, not these gurus. These so-called gurus are not trying to enlighten. They are trying to
grow their ocks. The quality of science education of these gurus depends on the quality of the science education
of their audience, not the other way round.
Of course, we need real gurus, well-educated gurus… but these are ones that will lead young minds in classrooms,
not claim wisdom from fancy owing robes. We need science gurus, philosophy gurus and history gurus. By that I
mean scholars who communicate all the nuance, rather than graduate students by the assembly line. Enlightened
and committed teachers are the real gurus. The people we call gurus today are just glamorous, self-styled
preachers.
Scientist
Science is based on observations that are used to construct hypotheses, theories etc based on accumulated
evidence that can be evaluated by peers. It is the building of a body of knowledge through carefully designed
experiments over a period of time. Scienti c methodology itself is an egoless process, that must minimize ‘observer
bias.’ Injecting ego into the process can invalidate scienti c inquiry. Further, one should recognise that (a) attacking
the messenger and his deeds doesn’t invalidate his/her argument (or) (b) invalidating the science in some of
messages cannot invalidate the ‘inner engineering hypothesis.’ Now, to the question. Can musings of the mystics be
subject to scienti c inquiry? If the knowledge acquired is an individualistic process that comes through ‘self
re ection’ or ‘meditation’ then it must have ‘observer bias’ and it is di cult to have a peer review process without
trusting the observer. The belief system of the ‘peer’ itself may in uence results. Science is based on the rational
mind. Inner Engineering hypothesis argues that you cannot go into the intuitive realm if you do not surrender the
rational mind. Herein lies the dichotomy in world views. This is why this is a hard nut to crack. Is is correct to
dismiss the hypothesis because scienti c methodology cannot address it? Is simply wishing it o as hoccus poccus
good enough? One cannot deny that there have been many enlightened souls in the world who have accessed this
inner knowledge and have dramatically changed world views. Were their brains simply di erently wired or is there
more to it. As scientists, we must be open to it.
Ravi
January 21, 2016 at 12:26 pm
“Inner Engineering” is a term made-up by Jaggi Vasudev to brand and market his Yoga program. It isn’t some
scienti c model of cognition. The word “Engineering” there has all the appeal to the crowd he wants to target and
none of rigorous connotations that the word ordinarily signi es. It is not unlike Deepak Chopra’s “Quantum
Healing”, a woo term.
A mystic’s claims can certainly be subjected to scienti c critique. If he says the moon or solar ares e ect the mind,
that absolutely can be scienti cally criticized as it has been in the article. If a mystic gets a lot of followers and in
fact changes “world views” that isn’t a proof of validity, but merely an evidence of irrationality in the public at large.
If the mystic’s claims do not produce any convincing evidence, we can of course quite reasonably conclude that
he/she does not have any special powers of intuition. Mystics, as a group, through history, have a terrible track
record at presenting any veri able discoveries using their claimed super intuition. So we can also reasonably
conclude that mysticism is bunk.
If the mystics were indeed operating by a special intuition, then all mystics in the world would point to a single
reality. But they don’t. All mystical claims should be congruent. But they aren’t. They are pretty culture-speci c. That
tells us that this is hardly an Ontological matter and is instead an Anthropology matter.
Science isn’t at all against intuitive thinking. But the products of intuitive thought don’t get a pass are still subject to
veri cation.
It is rather trivial to claim non-veri able super-powers for oneself, with the right rhetorical gifts and if a gullible
audience is available. Evidence should not be optional for any kind of claims. If it is, we invite a world directed by
charlatans. This should not be done casually. We need to move to a world that demands a lot more evidence for
everything, not less. We already tried the other way for the entirety of human history until the last few centuries
and we are still quite far from a rational world.
This is not a hard nut to crack. This is not about being “open”-minded. Open-mindedness isn’t about poor standards
of truth. Being open-minded does not mean – never closing questions when answers are obvious. At this point, we
do know how to distinguish what-works from woo. Without veri cation, knowledge claims, regardless of their
claimed epistemic origins, have little value. Saying that one is a mystic should not grant privileged immunity from
veri cation or critique. Mystical claims must be subject to MORE critique, not less, because they rest on much more
shaky foundations.
We did not discover mystics and mysticism yesterday. Human history is littered with mystics making grand claims
about the grand reality. We do know about their track record in producing enduring knowledge. At their humble
(that quality does not seem to describe Vasudev) best, regular mystics are doing amateur non-rational philosophy,
not an alternative to science. Rarely, mystics do do good philosophy… like Vivekananda. Even then, the only thing
that endures in the end is their philosophy, not their mysticism. We can celebrate Vivekananda, ignore his
mysticism and critique his philosophy. Nothing needs to be spared from rational critique. Surrender of reason is in
my view, the greatest spiritual (non-mystical sense) sin.
Note the di erences from a respectable mystic like Vivekananda who is genuinely trying to make sense of the world
in his own way and Vasudev’s shallow anti-rational position.
Inner Engineering hypothesis argues that you cannot go into the intuitive realm if you do not surrender the

rational mind.
Vivekananda: “It is wrong to believe blindly. You must exercise your own reason and judgment”.
So what surrender of the rational mind are we talking about here?
 Is is correct to dismiss the hypothesis because scienti c methodology cannot address it?
Vivekananda: “Are the same methods of investigation, which we apply to sciences and knowledge outside, to be
applied to the science of Religion? In my opinion this must be so, and I am also of opinion that the sooner it is done
the better. If a religion is destroyed by such investigations, it was then all the time useless, unworthy superstition;
and the sooner it goes the better”.
So Vivekananda is not at all against a scienti c review of mysticism and does not at all see it as beyond science.
R S Chakravarti
Everything that can be said on this subject has probably been said. But maybe a bit of clari cation can be given.
If there is such a thing as enlightenment, how can it be reviewed by peers who are not enlightened? If the process
of enlightenment takes several lifetimes, as stated by, e.g., Sankara, can it be reviewed?
I don’t have answers.
Well, maybe this doesn’t clarify but I hope it opens some minds!
Ravi
There is no reincarnation because there is no such thing as a soul. Biology is pretty clear on this. Life is a process,
not a thing. Religion becomes plainly clear once this simple aspect of science is understood. The wish to deny the
reality of death is however understandably too strong and makes people to not accept this simple fact.
With no soul, there is no such thing as accumulating enlightenment or any cognitive attainment in one’s life past
death.
Yes, enlightenment can be peer reviewed. Produce something that can be veri ed (by people who don’t believe in it
– that is the whole point of ANY critical review) beyond fancy rhetoric. If nothing can be produced, it is quite
reasonable to conclude that it is a fantasy claim.
R S Chakravarti
As far as I can see, biology is not in a position to say anything about the existence of a soul. Would you please
provide references for your assertion?
We have gone far from Jaggi Vasudev! He is now really irrelevant.
Ravi
Emperor Napoleon: But where is God in all this?

Pierre-Simon Laplace: Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis.
Same story with the soul. People used the soul hypothesis as a gap ller because they did not understand life in
enough detail. The whole idea is discarded now because it is simply not needed anymore to explain anything.
There won’t of course be a positive proof from science for the absence of anything (not just the soul), because
negatives are not logically provable… God, Russell’s Teapot and all that.
 We have gone far from Jaggi Vasudev! He is now really irrelevant.

I agree.
R S Chakravarti
Your response seems to con rm what I wrote. At least in mathematics, there are impossibility proofs. Your
statement “… soul hypothesis as a gap ller …” is only an opinion (maybe of someone like Dawkins or Hawking). I
don’t have to accept it. I guess there is no way to resolve this matter. If it is a matter of accepting someone’s
opinion, I prefer Ramana Maharshi to Hawking: enquire into the nature of the ‘I’ thought and nd out by oneself, no
room for peer review.
Ravi
is only an opinion

It isn’t an opinion. It is something that is well past debate in the scienti c community – stu that people roll their
eyes over now. In all ancient medical texts, there was soul talk. In modern medical texts, there is none… simply
because it is now known to be u talk with no value whatsoever. These are simply non-falsi able culturally-driven
pre-scienti c ideas.
 I guess there is no way to resolve this matter.

The person who claims that there is such a thing as a soul has to prove the claim, not the person who disagrees.
That’s the basic idea of the burden of proof (that was the reason I brought up Russell’s Teapot earlier). You should
be presenting proof for the soul, not asking me proof for its absence. If there is no proof for a soul (and there isn’t),
the matter is fully resolved. The case can be reopened if any new evidence pops up in the future. But things are
settled, as they stand.
Why Hawking? He is a physicist, not a cognitive psychologist or a philosopher. It is not within his expertise to talk
about “I”.
When I talk about souls, I am not talking about psychology (ego, identity, higher thought, senses) or convenience
metaphysics. I am talking about the idea of stu of some sort (claimed to be non-material), jumping from one body
to another elsewhere, at the event of death… i.e. reincarnation… or going to some sort of Heaven/Hell… or merging
with the super-soul. We do know enough Neurology, to understand that this simply cannot happen, just as we
know enough Chemistry to say that Homeopathy cannot work or know enough Astronomy to say that Astrology
cannot work.
 and nd out by oneself

To “ nd out” is an extremely complicated a air. Science understands what nding out means and how di cult it is.
So it is extremely productive. Mystics don’t understand what to “ nd out” means. So mysticism has not yielded any
useful knowledge in all these thousands of years human history. What you call “ nd out by oneself” is simply about
subscribing to a belief. Actually nding out is something entirely di erent.
R S Chakravarti
It seems obvious that concepts like soul and reincarnation are beyond the scope of medical science. Evidence is
there. For example see http://www.victorzammit.com. In every part of India, throughout its history, there have been
saints who convinced people of the existence of God, etc..
The burden of proof is o.k. for debates and courts of law but it has its limitations. As recently as the 19th century,
there was no evidence that aircraft could ever be built. A scientist could argue, following the “burden of proof”
argument, that it was impossible. I would not base my life on such a principle. Better keep an open mind.
Hawking was just an example of an atheist. You can put any other name there.
Homeopathy is also rejected by science merely because there is no explanation so far. But millions in India have
bene ted from it. I have seen its e ect personally.
Ravi
 It seems obvious that concepts like soul and reincarnation are beyond the scope of medical science.
A better way of putting it is that these concepts simply don’t stand up to scienti c scrutiny… because they are held
by non-falsi able statements and don’t o er any evidence. Nothing needs to be beyond science. People just say
stu is beyond science to avoid scrutiny. If it e ects the world, it should be testable. If it does not e ect the world,
we are simply dealing with fantasy/imaginative concepts.
Evidence is there. For example see http://www.victorzammit.com.

An unimpressive, amateurish resource. There have been loads of testimonies like this… lots of books written
a rming afterlife. They never stood to critical scrutiny. Near Death Experiences represent hypoxic cognition, not
afterlife. Past life accounts never tested out well.
 In every part of India, throughout its history, there have been saints who convinced people of the existence
of God, etc..
I agree, in the sense that it just doesn’t take a lot to convince people to believe in things. The entire human history
is a cavalcade of misplaced belief, with low standards for establishing truth. If you look at news these days, it
appears to be not that di cult, even in these modern days, to convince people to kill blow themselves up, and
many along, to reach a God that they are completely convinced of. You don’t even need “Saints” for that. Convincing
people is hardly a standard of truth.
The human mind is naturally prone to a great number of cognitive biases. It takes a great e ort to shield ourselves
from it. That is where science comes in… so that we try to know, not believe. Knowing needs a critical and rigorous
process. That is all science is.
 As recently as the 19th century, there was no evidence that aircraft could ever be built. A scientist could
argue, following the “burden of proof” argument, that it was impossible. I would not base my life on such a
principle.
Every year, for the foreseeable future, there will be something technologically that wasn’t there before. That’s not
the burden of proof we are talking about.
 Better keep an open mind.

Open mind is ne. But there is a line between an open-mind and a lack of critical thought. Too often, the former
becomes a euphemism for the later.
 Homeopathy is also rejected by science merely because there is no explanation so far.
No, it was just (reasonably) viewed suspiciously because its explanations made no sense. It was rejected because
there was no EVIDENCE (regardless of whatever silly mechanism it proposed) it worked even after thousands of
studies… not even in a SINGLE case. In the end, it is just water over sugar pills that people fool themselves is
medicine, for conditions that naturally remit after a while. At this point, please don’t be compelled to share your
personal experiences. I get it.
 But millions in India have bene ted from it. I have seen its effect personally.
They haven’t at all. Millions of people no doubt strongly believe they bene ted from it. And I understand your
conviction as well. However, these are not things to be established by personal conviction. They are meant to be
demonstrated statistically. That is why we spend a great deal of resources organizing studies, because personal
testimonies have no value in medicine. People who don’t understand probability theory (we just don’t teach these
things well) think that these things are personally knowable. Even the opinion of an experienced physician means
little on whether a cure occurred, when e ect sizes are low and variance is high, let alone that of a patient.
truthnlight
January 28, 2016 at 11:03 am
It seems Mr Jagadish Vasudev aka Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev aka Jaggi has been accused by his own father in law of
killing his daughter (Sadhguru jaggi’s wife) Vijji aka Mrs Vijaya kumari either by strangulation or by poisoning, in
1997. Mrs Vijaya Kumari was 31 years old then with a 6 year old daughter . Jaggi has escaped saying that she went
into mahasamadhi. (Now, which court accepts mahasamadhi and acquits a murderer?).
Mr. Jagadish cremated the body of his wife on the next day itself, hence no autopsy could be performed. Before
marrying Jagadish vasudev, Vijaya kumari was working in a bank and was previously married to someone else. After
her death, another woman who was involved with them (in the tri-vortex of energy needed to consecrate the so -
called dhyanalinga), a certain Mrs. Bharathi divorced her husband and came to live with Mr. Jagadish vasudev.
Mr. Jagadish vasudev has a daughter named Radhe, who is a dancer and she is married to a classical singer and is
living a normal, luxurious life in Chennai and the USA, whereas most young women and men in the ashram live as
unpaid slave labour, just on 2 meals a day and 3 sets of clothes and hard work to produce products and money for
his so called Isha foundation, which many say is just an excuse to get tax exempt status in India and the USA for all
ashram activities and businesses. Isha foundation doesnt seem to work much as it is advertised.
Mr Jagadish Vasudev once said that children who go to govt. schools are walking 4 km per day and giving the bus
charges (7rs/ day) to the ashram and that they are very commendable.
Also, while he asks people to live frugally, and donate to the ashram, he and his daughter, and Bharathi etc live very
luxuriously and Jaggi has bought himself a landrover, a landcruiser and a hummer apart from other things. He
advises people not to drink co ee, but he himself drinks folgers co ee and is seen at starbucks. His family
members (daughter, son in law etc ) go to movies, malls, foreign vacations, and drink co ee and hang out with
friends along with their latest i-phones as normal people do. It seems that Mr. Jgadish vasudev is keeping them in
“miserable” luxuries while the ashramites are enjoying sublime “spiritual” bliss in bare frugality.
He has once said that 3 things should never be commercialized…education, health care and spirituality. He is
commercializing all the three as – a) isha home school charges around 6 lakh per annum, b) isha arogya (medicine)
products are sold through isha stores and c) inner engineering and all other programs (spirituality) are also being
sold to the masses.
He is good with words, but he himself never practices what he speaks. Some people who want to come out of the
ashram are threatened from leaving saying that their spiritual progress will be stopped and that they will also a ect
the lives of many people around them…or something like that. Anyways most of them are in a kind of hypnotic
delusional state where they worship their master since he is o ering them something intangible like
enlightenment, and they believe all the lies he continuously says and defend him and the organization to the best
of their abilities.
You can read more on sadhguru jaggi vasudev aka sjv on guruphiliac forums written by ex ishaites. They say that
few people were found dead at both his ashrams in India and the US.
R S Chakravarti
In the Hindu tradition, one who says he is enlightened (like this man) is not enlightened.
masha
I am on LOGIC Tarkika is using When he(she) is saying ” First claim is unscienti c ” . No need to say that. Yoga and
science are founded on two di erent ASSUMPTIONS .
truth
Recently, the AP govt proposed to gift sadhguru jaggi vasudev 400 acres of land in the new capital city worth 800
crores. (Deccan herald and DC- The Andhra Pradesh government’s proposed allocation of 400 acres of land near
Vijayawada for the development of spiritually-oriented institutions to isha group.)
It seems Mr Jagadish Vasudev aka Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev aka Jaggi has been accused by his own father in law of
killing his daughter (Sadhguru jaggi’s wife) Vijji aka Mrs Vijaya kumari either by strangulation or by poisoning, in
1997. Mrs Vijaya Kumari was 31 years old then with a 6 year old daughter . Jaggi has escaped saying that she went
into mahasamadhi. (Now, which court accepts mahasamadhi and acquits a murderer?).
Mr. Jagadish cremated the body of his wife on the next day itself, hence no autopsy could be performed. Before
marrying Jagadish vasudev, Vijaya kumari was working in a bank and was previously married to someone else. After
her death, another woman who was involved with them (in the tri-vortex of energy needed to consecrate the so -
called dhyanalinga), a certain Mrs. Bharathi divorced her husband and came to live with Mr. Jagadish vasudev.
After his wife died, Mr. Jagadish Vasudev ew to the united states and got himself certi ed seriously ill to escape
the prosecution. He then started rumors about how the consecration of the dhyanalinga made him ill, so that no
one would doubt his fake illness.
Mr. Jagadish vasudev has a daughter named Radhe, who is a dancer and she is married to a classical singer and is
living a normal, luxurious life in Chennai and the USA, whereas most young women and men in the ashram live as
unpaid slave labour, just on 2 meals a day and 3 sets of clothes and hard work to produce products and money for
his so called Isha foundation, which many say is just an excuse to get tax exempt status in India and the USA for all
ashram activities and businesses. Isha foundation doesnt seem to work much as it is advertised.
Mr Jagadish Vasudev once said that children who go to govt. schools are walking 4 km per day and giving the bus
charges (7rs/ day) to the ashram and that they are very commendable.
Also, while he asks people to live frugally, and donate to the ashram, he and his daughter, and Bharathi etc live very
luxuriously and Jaggi has bought himself a landrover, a landcruiser and a hummer apart from other things. He
advises people not to drink co ee, but he himself drinks folgers co ee and is seen at starbucks. His family
members (daughter, son in law etc ) go to movies, malls, enjoy luxury villa stay with private pool type vacations
both in India and abroad, and hang out with friends along with their latest i-phones. It seems that Mr. Jagadish
vasudev is keeping them in “miserable” luxuries while the ashramites are enjoying sublime “spiritual” bliss in bare
frugality.
He has once said that 3 things should never be commercialized…education, health care and spirituality. He is
commercializing all the three as – a) isha home school charges around 6 lakh per annum, b) isha arogya (medicine)
products are sold through isha stores and c) inner engineering and all other programs (spirituality) are also being
sold to the masses.
He is good with words, but he himself never practices what he speaks. Some people who want to come out of the
ashram are threatened from leaving saying that their spiritual progress will be stopped and that they will also a ect
the lives of many people around them…or something like that. Anyways most of them are in a kind of hypnotic
delusional state where they worship their master since he is o ering them something intangible like
enlightenment, and they believe all the lies he continuously says and defend him and the organization to the best
of their abilities.
You can read more on sadhguru jaggi vasudev aka sjv on guruphiliac forums written by ex ishaites. They say that
few people were found dead at both his ashrams in India and the US.
This news came in the Indian Express in 1997-

Coimbatore, Oct, 11: Close on the heels of scandals relating to fake godmen getting exposed, yet another ashram
from Coimbatore is in the limelight with Jaggi Vasudev aliash Jagadeesh of Isha Yoga ashram at Poondi near
Coimbatore, being charged with the murder of his wife Viji alias Vijayakumari.A team of police personnel recently
visited the premises of Isha Ashram at poondi and interrogated the inmates of the ashram. Godman Jaggi is away
in the US.According to police, T. S. Ganganna of Bangalore (father of Viji) had preferred a complaint with the
Bangalore Police suspecting foul play in the death of his daughter Viji. The complaintant had stated that his
daughter left him last on June 15, 1996. He reportedly received a message on January 23, 1997, from Jaggi Vasudev,
stating that Viji was no more.Ganganna said that Jaggi Vasudev had hurriedly completed the cremation on Jan.24
even before they could rush from Bangalore, raising suspicion about the nature of death. He suspected death due
to poisoning or strangulation.According to him, Jaggi Vasudev could have caused the death of Viji to facilitate his
illicit relationship with yet another inmate of the ashram. Based on the complaint of Ganganna to the Bangalore
City Police on Aug. 12, a case was registered.The Bangalore City Police transferred it to the Coimbatore Rural
Police.The Coimbatore Rural Police have registered a case against Jaggi Vasudev under Section 302 of IPC (murder)
and IPC 201 (suppression of evidence).
Update- Also he got his daughter married at his ashram in 2014 and invited 6000 (six thousand) guests for the
ceremony, some of the guests were celebrities and politicians too…Wonder where did the money come from for
the accommodation, the festivities, the food and decorations ?
Sridevi
April 11, 2016 at 10:48 am
Not a surprise,,, that which goes beyond our understanding, the only way we have known to deal with it is to
criticize… Just like we can’t stop people like you, nobody can stop the immensity of yoga or Gurus like Sadguru from
working towards it..
He clearly mentions that not everything in universe can have scienti c proof.. & if you argue he is wrong,, you
should by now have scienti c reasons on every thing that is happening right from the reasons why the universe if
formed…
Not that I’d agree whoever written this article has thorough knowledge about science or even yoga.. So, when we
are half-baked & don’t understand something completely, with all due respect, either try to understand or walk
away from passing vague & insensible comments.
If you still want to make comments against yoga or for yoga,, against science or for science, I’d insist that you know
about it thoroughly before making such irresponsible comments..
In short, you could only be a critic if you have mastery of the subject (in this case yoga & Sadguru).. If you have not
known about them, you just miss the basic quali cation of being a critic..
Ravi
April 20, 2016 at 7:11 am
@Sridevi
 In short, you could only be a critic if you have mastery of the subject
That is kind of the point of the article. These self-proclaimed gurus (as opposed to actual gurus who spend decades
in advanced formal training and rigorous evaluation before advancing the understanding of the nature of things via
very focused questions) should not talk ippantly about science, when they do not understand the basics, let alone
“have a mastery of the subject”. Vasudev is incompetent to be a critic of science.
So, when we are half-baked & don’t understand something completely, with all due respect, either try to

understand or walk away from passing vague & insensible comments.
Which is exactly what Vasudev is doing – He has a half-baked understanding of science (he has no formal training in
science at all… and it clearly shows) and he is passing “vague and insensible comments”.
 If you still want to make comments against yoga or for yoga,, against science or for science, I’d insist that
you know about it thoroughly before making such irresponsible comments..
EXACTLY. When will you be insisting that Vasudev train “thoroughly” in science “before making such irresponsible
comments”?
mkd
June 3, 2016 at 4:59 am
This is the argument between a Man and an Owl, one says night is the time of light other says day is the time of
light. Neither has a faculty to see light both the times. I did yoga for quite some time and now can clearly feel the
impact of the moon on myself during its di erent phases. Saying that “He also alludes to the moon a ecting the
human brain. There is only one way in which the moon can a ect humans, that is with its gravitational pull” is
clearly nonesense in my experience. I cannot categories it has a gravitational impact but it just shoots up the energy
level of the body and every cell in the body feels it.
Alejandra
July 1, 2016 at 4:27 am
I get where you are coming from because i used to have that “non-plastic” “scienti c” mindset, but you lost it when
starting to talk about “nothingness”. When he says nothing he is not talking about the “nothing” that invalidates and
that is so rooted in our culture that it disquali es. If you see how he speaks about the rst yogi, “Adi Yogi” that for
others is a god but for yoga is only the most extraordinary human being, Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev refers to it as
“that which is nothing”. He is not desquilifying science by saying it is nothing, he is saying (i’m expresing this in a
crude way) that nothingness is that which uni es. Since that very basic concept is not understood in the present
analysis, the rest is not valid. It is valid as an opinion but has no debatable content.
tinytots
July 4, 2016 at 10:54 am
regarding your solar are argument above…I think you are justifying the whole argument of JV being ignorant with
your own limited “ignorance” and “knowledge”….Now
” If you ever do a Raman, you will see quite a signi cant background “noise” …primarily due to cosmic rays….now
imagine for a 1mm by 1mm sample , you have such “detectable “interactions…so for complete human body this
cosmic ray “particle” interactions can be quite signi cant…How they e ect us physically …”we dont know” …yet
Now same goes for neutrino…well it may not be colliding with human matter, but could be causing certain
“interference” at atomic level …the truth again is “we dont know yet” , we only know secondary interactions like
cherenkov radiation (in Icecube etc) ….
So if a solar storm can signi cantly disturb magnetosphere , then that could lead to change in ux of both cosmic
particles , neturino “types” on the ground from normal equilibrium…
If yogic guys are claiming it does, then you can be skeptic about ….and reach to the point saying this is the point
“where” we dont know…rather than saying its absolute bullshit…
Amusingly….jains have always worshiped sun as binary star..now richar muller nemisis theory is also looking for
that “failed”..and recently altast one binary star with exo planet con gration was observationwise con rmed…that
makes me wonder…”were jains really bullshitting ”
Remember….the life of “star Wars” story will always be much longer (by millennia) in human memory than space
station (max 2030)…stories survive …a bit ction..a bit non…
tinytots
July 4, 2016 at 11:34 am
Let me try explaining with one of your examples…. “solar are argument above ”
I think you are justifying the whole argument of JV being ignorant with your own limited “ignorance” and
“knowledge”. Now…..
If you ever take a Raman(IR) spectra of a sample, you will see quite a signi cant high energy background “noise”.
This is primarily because of cosmic particles interactions with both the Raman detector and sample. For such a
small detector and sample, about 5-10mm sq area , you have such “detectable ” external disturbances/interactions.
So imagine, for complete human body this cosmic “particle” interactions will be quite signi cant (extrapolate to
human body surface area). Now how that physical vibration (raman) translates to biochemistry to consciousness, is
simply “we don’t know” in modern science…yet!!
Now same goes for both solar and cosmic neutrinos. Well, they may not be colliding with human matter directly,
but could be causing certain “interference” at atomic level. Again, the truth so far about how is, “we don’t know “, we
are today only capable to(by 2016) detect secondary interactions like Cerenkov radiation (in Icecube etc). Again any
interactions, no matter how small inside human body will remain physically-directly “non detectable” for some time.
But do they e ect human consciousnesses?? Modern science will only say “we dont know” rather than saying NOT
AT ALL. So its a research question/direction that makes sense and needs to be investigated before negating
completely.
So if a solar storm can signi cantly disturb magnetosphere , then that could lead to change in ux of both cosmic
particles and neutrino ” avor types” on the ground in comparison to normal Sun.
If yogic guys are claiming it does, then you can be skeptic about it, and say this is the point so far “where” we don’t
know…rather than saying this “theory” its absolute bullshit !!
Amusingly….Jains have always worshiped sun as binary star. Surprisingly, Richard Muller’s Nemesis theory is also
looking for that other Sun, and has experimentally so far “failed”. Although recently, atleast one binary star with
exo-planet con guration was con rmed with observations. Now, that makes me and “modern science” both
wonder “were Jains really bullshitting ” or we were not good skeptics to begin with that this took so long. At-least we
(in west & desi-west) could have theorized or simulated the whole binary star concept rst, before making fun of
Jain mythology.
Remember….the life of “star Wars” will always be much longer (by millennia) in human memory than actual ISS
space station (max 2030)…stories survive …a bit ction..a bit non…
Mukunda
July 5, 2016 at 8:30 pm
Well already there a r many comments posted on ur site…good for u that u have got great response to ur article
from scienti cally ignorant middle class of india…See, my rst point is that a spiritual guru need not b a theoritical
physist…if you believe that an enlightened person knows everything…my frnd I nd you rather ignorant to
understand that humans cannot know everything…However, the goal of everyones life is to live a life with unending
happiness and bliss…Whether sadhguru really has meta human powers, to know everything, or not is
unnecessary…He has used higgs boson as an analogy to describe smthng else…Chill bro…its ne…
SHANAYA
July 6, 2016 at 10:28 pm
Come on dude, “middle class- the less educated”- does science tells that education is based on social classes, then
you might infact yourself be proving the hindu caste system very scienti c……Then what about his low class and
upper class followers????? First of all he is not a scientist and in order to refute a theory you must rst know the
fact….Though he might be wrong in some of his assumptions, but rst one has to know the fact. We do not know
much about the universe yet to disaprove every theory….Secondly, people go to him to learn yoga not science and I
don’t see how’s that misleading.
Sujai
July 14, 2016 at 6:19 pm
De-bunking spiritual BS essense of jaggi Vasudev.
If there is one science that jaggi is good at, it is at confusing already confused people.
This is how he sells Ice to a snowman in Antarctica,
** See baba, you are not a snowman, you are a questioner. so I’m speaking to the questioner even when I blabber
BULLSHIT.
** Look at this water,, when I look at it it will turn to ice at room temperature…
.
. After some time,,
.
** Climate cools the ice. The stupid snowmen end up believing that Jaggi dit it.
** Sitting in silence, a.k.a meditation, calms anyone’s mind. The meditator feels fresh and will obviously attract
better lifestyle. Jaggi has nothing to do with it.
** BTW, I heard that some of the weakling bhakthas actually act like Snowmen during this fatallic Inner Engineering
workshop . It is more of an inner handjob to their confused minds. Isha volunteers live up to the snowman
potential in every workshop
IMHO
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Sadhguru-seem-to-claim-that-he-knows-the-whole-thing/answer/Sujai-Karthik-
M-S
Now, a little spirituality,
*** Having considered all spiritual systems/theories, even if we assume that JV refers to the soul[jeevatma] when
he says questioner, the basic principle that your soul is made in the image of god is taken for a toss. Why TF is he
addressing the questioner/You / Your soul / I am that already knows everything. It is the mind which clouds the
connection with the soul and the actual confused person who asks the question that has to be answered to in
order to get clarity.
*** If the answer is only for the questioner, Why TF is it hosted publicly as blogs/videos?
** A few people in this thread used several exclamation marks when JV was called a liar.
*** Pls think, neither is his science correct
*** nor is his spirituality correct
**** He sells you religion in the name of yogi philosophy [Kashmiri Shaivism ie. everything is darkness and then
blah blah happened. Who TF is this Adi Yogi?]
**** This is cheap. Providing Relegious sounding BS when asked a spiritual question like settling for a Chevvy when
you have actually paid the price of a Bentley.
Have fun reading this ! [ An abstract answer I wrote in Quora ]
EVERY MAN HAS A PAST,EVERY MYSTIC, A HISTORY.
There was a tall dark man,
he went to the top of the mountain and meditated.. on the peak, he found eternal bliss.. Then he came down and
shared his knowledge with 7 rishis.
When did this happen? , people dont know.
But one thing is sure, Jaggi vasudev was there,hiding behind a tree. He still lives to re-tell the story.
Again in 1990’s, This tall dark man who had renamed himself Adi Yogi appeared in Jaggi’s dreams and asked him to
build a big spiritual theme park with big reception, swimming pool, temple,big statue, residential quarters and a
souvenir store.
To teach Yoga, Jaggi took some crash courses from the lineage of maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s lineage has not been
acknowledged so far. Adi Yogi asked jaggi to keep silent about this.
And Jaggi being a good storyteller used the Adi Yogi story to grab land from people around Velliangiri. Being a
construction contractor before becoming self-proclaiming to be a mystic, he was able to build building after the
other in forest land.
Girish
August 2, 2016 at 11:57 pm
You are no di erent from Jaggi vasudev in claiming the audacity of what you know knowing very well that what you
know is limited and can change tomorrow yet you claim others are wrong or ignorant when you are equally
ignorant!! Accept the fact that we humans don’t know enough about the cosmos to make authentic statements, we
know nothing, absolutely nothing, that’s the fact!!
Hotch
August 12, 2016 at 11:50 pm
If anyone try to say yogis are not scientists, then how could they able to identify the colours of planets in solar
system, when there is no telescope or any facilities are available to see it. Actually the yogis found the universe
within them and identi ed it’s colors and given in the “navagraham” . Yogis said everything but now the scientists
are trying to prove that’s all.
Sangeetha Baskaran
How many of you here know Sanskrit and know the Vedas completely?
Unless you know it and understand what it says, you cannot argue for or against it.
Modern science current or next big thing is the study of wat the currently unbreakable fundamental particles are
made of, string theory proposes models that cannot be completely proved or even try to attempt in its
experimentation. Physics is proven mainly on the basis of mathematical models and experiments cannot be even
modulated based on super advance mathematical string modelling.. it may take years for the theory of string to be
proven through experiments. I have, by the way done research on fundamental particle physics. Mathematics is the
only way modern science community depends on to explain its theories. Having said that,i don’t think mathematics
is the only way to understand the true nature of this universe
Nobody, who accuses SJV has tried to understand what he says. There is this yogic science which has existed over
many thousands of year, explores nature of universe, our very life in a fundamentally di erent ways. You can
understand it’s credibility, only if you attempt practice it, for that you rst need some level of trust and skepticism
and willingness to try.
Prashant
Namshkar and hello .
With due all humility and politeness ..I want to state that : Vedas are entirely scienti c and I hope I will clear the
misconceptions of this scienti c forum .
my brothers of science .
it’s going to be little bit lengthy(sorry)
Before I start explaining things ..
A small scienti c concept from Vedas .

-Sanskrit “Nada Brahma” – all the world is sound. i.e (universe is vibration )And anything that vibrates reacts to
vibrations.
At times we put out a signal unaware of its unique imprint and shocked when it returns to us as a harsh re ection,
sometimes misunderstood by all.
The scienti c research today has come up with the recognition that all creation is energy in movement, vibration,
each vibration having it’s own sound, colour, visual pattern. When the vibration is slow enough we recognize it as
our material world.
Actually it’s quite enough to prove Vedas scienti c credibility.
(Typically It takes 10-12 year to learn veads alone)
Now I start ..om
Vedas and Puranas, which were revealed second time 6,000 years ago centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently
discovered or proven by scientists.
Sphericity of Earth:
The existence of rather advanced concepts like the sphericity of Earth and the cause of seasons is quite clear in
Vedic literature. For example, the Aitareya Brahmana (3.44) declares:
The Sun does never set nor rise. When people think the Sun is setting it is not so. For after having arrived at the end
of the day it makes itself produce two opposite e ects, making night to what is below and day to what is on the
other sideHaving reached the end of the night, it makes itself produce two opposite e ects, making day to what is
below and night to what is on the other side. In fact, the Sun never sets.
Shape of Earth is like an Oblate Spheroid. (Rig VedaXXX. IV.V)
‘Earth is attened at the poles’ (Markandeya Purana 54.12)
“Sixty-four centuries before Isaac Newton, the Hindu Rig-Veda asserted that gravitation held the universe together.
The Sanskrit speaker subscribed to the idea of a spherical earth in an era when the Greeks believed in a at one.
The Indians of the fth century A.D. calculated the age of the earth as 4.3 billion years; scientists in 19th century
England were convinced it was 100 million years.”
Polar Days and Nights

For the period when the sun is north it is visible for six months at the north pole and invisible at the south, and vice
versa. – (Ibid Sutara)
Now Lets see what modern science says about this:

June 21, 1999: Later today, at 19:49 UT (3:49 p.m. EDT), Earth’s north pole points more directly at the Sun than at
any other time during the year. For polar bears and other denizens of the Arctic it will be noontime, the middle of a
6-month long day, as the Sun climbs to 23 1/2 degrees above the horizon.
June 21st marks the beginning of summer in the Northern Hemisphere and the beginning of winter in the Southern
Hemisphere. In the North it’s the longest day of the year. At mid-latitudes there is sunlight for over 16 hours. Above
the Arctic Circle the sun doesn’t set at all!
“He made this Earth xed by di erent devices like hills and mountains in shape of pegs but it still rotates . Sun
never sets; all parts of earth are not in Darkness.” [RIG VEDA]
movement of earth:
“Earth rotates in two ways by the Will of Brahama, rst it rotates on its axis secondly it revolves around sun. Days
and Nights are distinguished when moves on its axis. Season change when it revolves around Sun”. (Vishnu Puran)
“There are suns in all directions, the night sky being full of them.” (Rig Veda)
Now lets see what what the modern sceince says:

In the 1920s astronomers realised that our island universe, the Milky Way Galaxy, is not alone in space. Outside it
are other galaxies, each containing thousands of millions of suns. One of these other galaxies is visible to the naked
eye, as a faint fuzzy blob in the constellation of Andromeda. The Andromeda galaxy is similar in size and shape to
the Milky Way and is our galaxy’s nearest neighbour, 2 million light years (20000000000000000000000 km) away.
Further away are other galaxies, too faint for the eye to see. With powerful telescopes, millions have been
photographed. Remarkably, all the galaxies are eeing from one another: the whole Universe is expanding. This is
one of the key pieces of evidence that about 15000 million years ago, there was a beginning to the Universe, an
immense explosion we call the Big Bang. The debris from the explosion is still ying apart. Earth is one of the
cinders.
stant cluster of galaxies.
Each galaxy contains
about a 100000 million suns.
Because each galaxy contains about 100000 million suns, galaxies can be seen to enormous distances, and they
light up the distant universe for us.
Modern scientists’ comments:
Hinduism is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scienti c cosmology. The
Hindu literature is work of a Genius.
(Dr. Steinn Sigurdsson, Pennsylvania State University)
It looks like that the writers of Vedas and Puran came from the future to deliver knowledge. The works of the
Ancient Arya Sages is mind blowing. There is no doubt that Purans and Vedas are word of God.
(Scott Sandford , Space Scientist, NASA)
How could Hindus have possibly known all this 6,000 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this
using advanced equipment which did not exist at that time? Such concepts were found only recently.
(Dr. Kevin Hurley of the University of California at Berkeley)
Blue Sky is Nothing but scattered sunlight (Markandeya Purana 78.8)
what Modern Science says about it:

The blue color of the sky is due to Rayleigh scattering.
Nothing in Brahmand(universe ) is immovable (Sam Veda)
“NOTHING IS STATIC IN THIS WORLD NEITHER LIVING OR NON LIVING”. (Brahmand Puran)
“Earth is divided in many plates as much as 14 of them in present Manavatara.” (Brahmand Purana)
In the 1920s, Edwin Hubble used the 100″ telescope (2.5 meters) at the Mount Wilson Observatory in California to
detect variable stars in nebulae. He discovered that the stars he observed had the same characteristic variations in
their brightness as a class of stars called Cepheid Variables. Earlier, astronomer Henrietta Levitt had shown there
was a precise correlation between the periodic change in brightness of a Cepheid Variable and its luminosity.
Hubble was able use this correlation to show that the nebulae containing the variable stars he observed were not
within our own Galaxy; they were external galaxies far beyond the edge of our Milky Way.
The current continental and oceanic plates include: the Eurasian plate, Australian-Indian plate, Philippine plate,
Paci c plate, Juan de Fuca plate, Nazca plate, Cocos plate, North American plate, Caribbean plate, South American
plate, African plate, Arabian plate, the Antarctic plate, and the Scotia plate. These plates consist of smaller sub-
plates.
Origin of Universe
Hindu concepts of Hiranyagarbha (golden womb) and Brahmanda (the rst egg), are comparable to cosmic egg
origin systems. The Bhagavata Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Vayu Purana among others contain references to the
initial process of the origins of the universe as a cosmic egg. The twelve phase creation of the universe and the
history of our Brahmanda is described in Srimad Bhagvatam.
The Hiranyagarbha Sukta announces: Hiranyagarbhah samavartatagre bhutasya jatah patireka asit, which means,
Before creation existed the golden womb Hiranyagarbha, Lord of everything born. (Rig Veda 10.121.1)
The whole universe including sun, moon, planets, and galaxies was all inside the egg, and the egg was surrounded
by ten qualities from outside. (Vayu Purana 4.74-75)
Before creation, it was only the braham that was everywhere. There was no day, night or sky. First I created the
waters. And in the waters I sowed the seeds of brahmanda. the great egg. From this seed there developed a egg
which began to oat on the waters. This egg is known as Brahamand (Universe)
Finally we came to conclusion that Universe is shaped like a egg but this information was already present in Hindu
Literature.
(Alan Kogut, NASA)
Modern Science:
If we take a look at the COBE results, we notice the uneven pattern in the radiation stemming from the decoupling
of matter and radiation when the Universe was a mere 300,000 years old. The blue and magenta patterns
represent areas that were slightly cooler and slightly warmer than average. These variations are at a level of about
1:100,000, but they must have been enough to seed the structures we see today.
OZONE LAYER
Protection of Earth
After the formation of the earth planet, Brahama created atmosphere in group of seven , from that formation
oceans began to exist, and the rst form of life appeared on the earth planet. Atmosphere was created as
protective skin of earth (Shrimad Bhagwatam)
“Amazing isnt it Vedas and Puaran are divine source of knwoledg” said Dr. Donald Mitchell of the Johns Hopkins
Applied Physics Laboratory. It is hard to believe that these facts were already mentioned in hindu books thousands
of years back, in the time when Human didnt knew much about Astronomy.
The Vishnu Purana gives a quite an accurate description of tides:

“In all the oceans the water remains at all times the same in quantity and never increases or diminishes; but like the
water in a cauldron, which in consequence of its combination with heat, expands, so the waters of the ocean swell
with the increase of the Moon. The waters, although really neither more nor less, dilate or contract as the Moon
increases or wanes in the light and dark fortnights”..
About Creation of Moon
Theia colliding with Earth.
“In the initial stage of creation of Universe some creation material slipped from the hands of Brahma and collided
with earth resulting in the formation of Moon”.
(Brahmand Purana)
what Modern Science says
At the time Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago, other smaller planetary bodies were also growing. One of these hit
earth late in Earth’s growth process, blowing out rocky debris. A fraction of that debris went into orbit.
Vedas theory of evolution is so conspicuous to understand …
Now on quantum physics

The famous Danish physicist and Nobel Prize winner, Laureate Niels Bohr (1885-1962) , was a follower of the Vedas.
He said, “I go into the Upanishads to ask questions.” Both Bohr and Schrödinger, the founders of quantum physics,
were avid readers of the Vedic texts and observed that their experiments in quantum physics were consistent with
what they had read in the Vedas.
Niels Bohr got the ball rolling around 1900 by explaining why atoms emit and absorb electromagnetic radiation
only at certain frequencies.
Then, in the 1920’s Erwin Schrödinger (1887-1961), an Austrian-Irish physicist who won the Nobel prize, came up
with his famous wave equation that predicts how the Quantum Mechanical wave function changes with time. Wave
functions are used in Quantum Mechanics to determine how particles move and interact with time.
Bohr, Heisenberg and Schrödinger regularly read Vedic texts. Heisenberg stated, “Quantum theory will not look
ridiculous to people who have read Vedanta.” Vedanta is the conclusion of Vedic thought.
Furthermore, Fritjof Capra, when interviewed by Renee Weber in the book The Holographic Paradigm (page 217–
218), stated that Schrödinger, in speaking about Heisenberg, has said:
“I had several discussions with Heisenberg. I lived in England then [circa 1972], and I visited him several times in
Munich and showed him the whole manuscript chapter by chapter. He was very interested and very open, and he
told me something that I think is not known publicly because he never published it. He said that he was well aware
of these parallels. While he was working on quantum theory he went to India to lecture and was a guest of Tagore.
He talked a lot with Tagore about Indian philosophy. Heisenberg told me that these talks had helped him a lot with
his work in physics, because they showed him that all these new ideas in quantum physics were in fact not all that
crazy. He realized there was, in fact, a whole culture that subscribed to very similar ideas. Heisenberg said that this
was a great help for him. Niels Bohr had a similar experience when he went to China.”
Consequently, Bohr adopted the Yin-Yang symbol as part of his family coat-of-arms when he was knighted in 1947.
Schrodinger wrote in his book Meine Weltansicht:

“This life of yours which you are living is not merely a piece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole;
only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the
Brahmins [wise men or priests in the Vedic tradition] express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so
simple and so clear; tat tvam asi, this is you. Or, again, in such words as “I am in the east and the west, I am above
and below, I am this entire world.”
ब्र ैवेदममतृ ं पुर तात् ब्र प चात् ब्र उ रतो दि णत चो रेण ।
अध चो व च प्रसतृ ं ब्र ैवेदं िव विमदं विर ठम् ॥ 2.2.11
This is a reference to the Mundaka Upanishad mantra (above) in which the Vedic understanding of the connectivity
of living entities is put forward to help the Bhakta (practitioner of yoga) to understand the di erence between the
body and the living entity. How the real nature of the living entity is realized only in union with the source, the
supreme being (Brahman/Krishna) through a platform of transcendental divine loving service.
Schrödinger, in speaking of a universe in which particles are represented by wave functions, said, “The unity and
continuity of Vedanta are re ected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. This is entirely consistent with
the Vedanta concept of All in One.”
“The multiplicity is only apparent. This is the doctrine of the Upanishads. And not of the Upanishads only. The
mystical experience of the union with God regularly leads to this view, unless strong prejudices stand in the West.”
(Erwin Schrödinger, What is Life?, p. 129, Cambridge University Press)
“There is no kind of framework within which we can nd consciousness in the plural; this is simply something we
construct because of the temporal plurality of individuals, but it is a false construction… The only solution to this
con ict insofar as any is available to us at all lies in the ancient wisdom of the Upanishad.” (Mein Leben, Meine
Weltansicht [My Life, My World View] (1961), Chapter 4)
In his biography on Schrödinger, Moore wrote: “His system – or that of the Upanishads – is delightful and
consistent: the self and the world are one and they are all… He rejected traditional western religious beliefs (Jewish,
Christian, and Islamic) not on the basis of any reasoned argument, nor even with an expression of emotional
antipathy, for he loved to use religious expressions and metaphors, but simply by saying that they are naive.
Vedanta and gnosticism are beliefs likely to appeal to a mathematical physicist, a brilliant only child, tempted on
occasion by intellectual pride. Such factors may help to explain why Schrödinger became a believer in Vedanta, but
they do not detract from the importance of his belief as a foundation for his life and work. It would be simplistic to
suggest that there is a direct causal link between his religious beliefs and his discoveries in theoretical physics, yet
the unity and continuity of Vedanta are re ected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world
view of physics was a model of the universe as a great machine composed of separable interacting material
particles, During the next few years, Schrödinger and Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on
superimposed inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the
vedantic concept of the All in One.” (Schrödinger: Life and Thought (Meine Weltansicht), p. 173)
In Schrödinger’s famous essay on determinism and free will, he expressed very clearly the sense that
consciousness is a unity, arguing that this “insight is not new…From the early great Upanishads the recognition
Atman = Brahman (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought
considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent, the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of
the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to
assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts.”
According to Moore on page 125 of his biographical work, A Life of Erwin Schrödinger, Schrödinger found “Vedanta
teaches that consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal consciousness and there is
no multiplicity of selves… The stages of human development are to strive for Possession (Artha), Knowledge
(Dharma), Ability (Kama), Being (Moksha)… Nirvana is a state of pure blissful knowledge. It has nothing to do with
individual. The ego or its separation is an illusion. The goal of man is to preserve his Karma and to develop it
further – when man dies his karma lives and creates for itself another carrier”.
Regarding mystical insights, Schrödinger tells us: “The multiplicity is only apparent. This is the doctrine of the
Upanishads, and not of the Upanishads only. The mystical experience of the union with God regularly leads to this
view, unless strong prejudices stand in the West” (Amaury de Riencourt, The Eye of Shiva: Eastern Mysticism and
Science, p.78).
In autumn of 1925 Schrödinger wrote an interestingly personal account of his philosophy of life called Mein
Weltansicht – My World View.
He completed this in 1960. In chapter 5 of this book he gives his understanding of the basic view of Vedanta. He
writes, “Vedanta teaches that consciousness is singular, all happenings are played out in one universal
consciousness and there is no multiplicity of selves.”
Maya (illusion) is the cause of our faulty identi cation with this material world. In all the embodied forms of
existence, Atma (the individual living entity) is fully able to at any time revive his forgotten, eternal and inherent
connection with Brahman or Paramatma, the supreme self and source of all the living entities.
Schrödinger did not believe that it is possible to demonstrate the unity of consciousness by logical arguments. One
must make an imaginative leap guided by communion with nature and the persuasion of analogies. He understood
the nonmaterial eternal nature of the conscious self and how the Atman is intimately connected to the supreme.
In the 1920’s quantum mechanics was created by the three great minds mentioned above: Heisenberg, Bohr and
Schrödinger, who all read from and greatly respected the Vedas. They elaborated upon these ancient books of
wisdom in their own language and with modern mathematical formulas in order to try to understand the ideas that
are to be found throughout the Vedas, referred to in the ancient Sanskrit as “Brahman,” “Paramatma,” “Akasha” and
“Atman.” As Schrödinger said, “some blood transfusion from the East to the West to save Western science from
spiritual anemia.”
In 1935 Einstein Prodolsky and Rosen challenged Quantum Mechanics on the grounds that it was an incomplete
formulation. They were the rst authors to recognize that quantum mechanics is inherently non-local, which means
it allows for instantaneous action across arbitrarily great distances. So an action in one place can instantly in uence
something on the other side of the universe in no time at all. This very powerful paper (The EPR paper) explaining
Quantum Entanglement changed the world and alerted us to the magical implications of quantum mechanics’
metaphysical implications.
But, Einstein states in his letter from to Max Born, 3 March 1947, “Es gibt keine spukhafte Fernwirkung” which
translates to “There is no spooky action at a distance.” He did not believe in magic. He believed in science and
would regularly read the Bhagavad-gita.
Einstein’s famous quote on the Bhagavad-gita is: “When I read the Bhagavad-gita and re ect about how God
created this universe everything else seems so super uous.” He also wrote in his book The World as I See It, “I
maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scienti c research” (p. 24-28).
Since scientists like Schrödinger did not possess a direct knowledge of Sanskrit to discern rst-hand what the Vedic
texts actually were saying, they were forced to read various translations of these great books of wisdom, such as
the Upanishads. There are persons like Robert Oppenheimer (1904 – 1967) (pictured on left) who were not lacking
in such an advantage. Oppenheimer learned Sanskrit in 1933 and read the Bhagavad-gita in the original, citing it
later as one of the most in uential books to shape his philosophy of life, stating that “The Vedas are the greatest
privilege of this century.”
Upon witnessing the world’s rst nuclear test in 1945, he instantly quoted Bhagavad-gita chapter 11, text 32, “Now I
am become death, the destroyer of worlds.”
The fact is that, irrespective of east or west, great minds that come in contact with the Vedic texts agree that the
ultimate reality remains timeless and changeless, and is contained in the Vedic texts such as the Bhagavad-gita and
the Upanishads.
The well-known early American writer Ralph Waldo Emerson, read the Vedas daily. Emerson wrote: “I owed a
magni cent day to the Bhagavat-Gita”
Henry David Thoreau said: “In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous philosophy of the Bhagavad
Gita… in comparison with which… our modern world and its literature seems puny and trivial.”
So great were Emerson and Thoreau’s appreciation of Vedantic literatures that they became known as the
American transcendentalists. Their writings contain many thoughts from Vedic Philosophy.
Another famous personality who spokes of the greatness of the Vedas was: Alfred North Whitehead (British
mathematician, logician and philosopher), who stated that: “Vedanta is the most impressive metaphysics the
human mind has conceived.”
Lin Yutang, Chinese scholar and author, wrote that: “India was China’s teacher in trigonometry, quadratic
equations, grammar, phonetics… ” and so forth.
Francois Voltaire stated: “… everything has come down to us from the banks of the Ganges.”
Another genius scientist was Nikola Tesla, a super genius Serbian. Tesla, along with the others mentioned above,
knew that the ancient Indian Brahmans (wise men), well equipped with knowledge from the Vedas, had
understandings of the intricate laws, mathematical formulas and subtle workings of the universe that far surpass
anything we can even imagine today.
Much of Tesla’s life and work has been erased from history due to this mastermind inventor and scientist wanting
to make the fruits of all his work available for free to the world(tesla free energy) .
Tesla understood the great power of Zero Point Field or Akasha or Ether: the power of space between the electrons
and the nucleus. Vivekanda’s e ect on Tesla was so great that he became vegetarian, became celibate and started
using Sanskrit words. He died with his scalar energy science in his head, because he did NOT want the US military
to use it to destroy the planet. No wonder he was denied the Nobel prize and eventually killed. Knowledge is power,
and there are many people that want all the power for themselves. Tesla wanted to give power to everyone for
free! He was actually the rst person to gure out how to make radio communication possible across the Atlantic
ocean. But because he wanted to make this ability free for others his funding was stopped and the credit was later
given to someone else that played the power game better than him.
The Vedas recommend for yogis, and those wanting super intelligence and inner power, to conserve their own
divine energy by observing celibacy. As Tesla himself has said, “The gift of mental power comes from God, divine
being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power.” and “Our senses
enable us to perceive only a minute portion of the outside world.”
Carl Sagan stated, “Vedic Cosmology is the only one in which the time scales correspond to those of modern
scienti c cosmology.”
Nobel laureate Count Maurice Maeterlinck wrote of: “a Cosmogony which no European conception has ever
surpassed.”
French astronomer Jean-Claude Bailly corroborated the antiquity and accuracy of the Vedic astronomical
measurements as “more ancient than those of the Greeks or Egyptians.” And that, “the movements of the stars
calculated 4,500 years ago, does not di er by a minute from the tables of today.”
Voltaire, the famous French writer and philosopher) stated that “Pythagoras went to the Ganges to learn geometry.”
Abraham Seidenberg, author of the authoritative “History of Mathematics,” credits the Sulba Sutras as inspiring all
mathematics of the ancient world from Babylonia to Egypt to Greece.
As Voltaire & Seidenberg have stated, many highly signi cant mathematical concepts have come from the Vedic
culture, such as:
The theorem bearing the name of the Greek mathematician Pythagorus is found in the Shatapatha Brahmana as
well as the Sulba Sutra, the Indian mathematical treatise, written centuries before Pythagorus was born.
The Decimal system, based on powers of ten, where the remainder is carried over to the next column, rst
mentioned in the Taittiriya Samhita of the Black Yajurveda.
The Introduction of zero as both a numerical value and a place marker.

The Concept of in nity.
The Binary number system, essential for computers, was used in Vedic verse meters.
A hashing technique, similar to that used by modern search algorithms, such as Googles, was used in South Indian
musicology. From the name of a raga one can determine the notes of the raga from this Kathapayadi system.
Cosmology and other scienti c accomplishments of ancient India spread to other countries along with mercantile
and cultural exchanges. There are almost one hundred references in the Rig Veda alone to the ocean and maritime
activity.
This is con rmed by Indian historian R. C. Majumdar, who stated that the people of the Indus-Sarasvata Civilization
engaged in trade with Sooma and centers of culture in western Asia and Crete.
…as we can see many renowned intellectuals believed that the Vedas provided the origin of scienti c thought.
And there are plenty of them

but I think it’s enough expounded.
And last some one raised a question of toilet …I Will nish it in brief
So kindly allow me to update that fella ….in archaeological survey of Indus valley …toilet with ushing facility has
been founded and I don’t think I have to explain the reason why we are a developing country (thanks to
invaders)large amount of our history,education and scienti c works was extirpated but we are recovering and hope
will lead the world towards peace(our intrinsic nature).
Brothers,
science and spirituality complement each other .
Tat tavm asi (that thou art – you are that )

Vasudhaiva kutumbakam (the entire world is one family)
Nanashkar
Thank you
Prashant
*found
R S Chakravarti
@Sangeetha Baskaran:
I think mathematics is not su cient but it is necessary, in fact essential, for understanding the universe. Don’t you
think relativity and quantum mechanics are needed? They don’t tell you what life is but they do explain some
aspects of reality; are there any non-mathematical substitutes for them?
Of course, humans lived for thousands of years without learning GR and QM, and we believe that some of them
achieved enlightenment regarding the nature of life and death, the soul, etc.. Some such individuals probably
existed even in recent times and some may be around now. If this is true (I think it is, but can’t prove it; that is why I
say “probably”) did such people understand things like the curvature of space, quarks and so on? I have no idea.
What do you think? Please don’t dismiss it as unnecessary knowledge!
It is another matter whether Jaggi Vasudev is in the same league as Ramana Maharshi or Shirdi Sai Baba or
Ramakrishna (of course, assuming that they were enlightened souls, which we believe without proof).
From the information in this blog, I don’t think so.
Marl
October 22, 2016 at 12:33 am
Is this the same science that ignores elegant and explanatory models like the Electric Universe in favor of the old
and increasingly falsi ed gravity driven model? You know, the “science” of faked studies with false conclusions
concocted to get more grant money?
I’ll take Sadhguru’s rationalism any day of the week.
Ravi
@Marl
– Electric Universe is a pseudoscience: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe
– Gravitational model has not been “falsi ed”.
– “Sadguru” is not rational. He is a literature major, who has not taken science lessons since 10th class.
– Conspiracy theories are dime a dozen.
Rama Bapat
Is everyone on this forum at least willing to ‘experiment’ by practising meditation? It doesn’t need anything except
an open mind ?
shivratri
Is everyone on this forum at least willing to ‘experiment’ by practising meditation? It doesn’t need anything except
an open mind ?
bob
March 13, 2017 at 5:16 am
very nice article Prashant.
FS
March 30, 2017 at 2:02 am
Excellent. Another video I’ve watched is about warning people not to sleep with their head pointed to the north if
they live in the northern hemisphere. The pseudo-scienti c rationale given for this is that the magnetic eld
emanating from Earth’s northern pole will slowly cause blood to drift to your head and potentially hemorrhage the
ne capillaries in the brain. He goes on to explain this by using the “blood contains iron routine” in a very scienti c-
sounding manner, that easily convinces people whose scienti c backgrounds are limited to elementary / middle
school science. Iron in the blood is not present in a ferromagnetic state. It is part of a molecule called haemoglobin,
that transports oxygen from the lungs to di erent parts of the body. In this form, iron is not attracted to magnetic
elds. Even the weakly magnetic deoxyhaemoglobin has no signi cant attraction to Earth’s magnetic eld of 32
microteslas. For context, a lowly fridge magnet is 150 times stronger and has no demonstrable e ect on blood.
R S Chakravarti
March 30, 2017 at 7:57 am
@FS: His explanation may be wrong. He may be a cheat and a murderer as alleged in the comments above. But
there may be another explanation for the custom. In other words, as long as a custom isn’t harmful, I won’t rule out
the possibility of its having a scienti c basis unless it is disproved.
Dileep
May 18, 2017 at 5:43 pm
The arguments of the author sound feeble.
Shanmugam
May 25, 2017 at 5:46 am
Many comments from Isha lovers say that one should go ahead and try the techniques o ered by Isha before we
make any comments. I have done Shambavi and BSP, have gone to ashram many times and meditated in the
Dhyanalinga shrine and also bought Linga Bhairavai Gudi and Dhyanalinga yantra.. I think that makes me
completely quali ed to comment here…
First of all, I do admire sadhguru for his skills.. His leadership skills, oratory skills, his social service activities and his
attempt to bring Yoga to international attention is all excellent…
But the argument of this blogger is completely valid as well… Trying to promote Isha Yoga with half-baked and
pseudo-scienti c concepts will de nitely invite a lot of criticisms… In one discourse, Sadhguru said that water has
memory and science has con rmed it.. It is true that there were experiments conducted and an evidence for it was
observed.. But since the experiments were not conducted in controlled conditions, many scientists tried the
experiments many times in controlled conditions and were unable to produce the same results.. So, the whole
concept of water memory has been rejected by science as pseudo-science…
In another discourse about Psychology, he said ” All the psychologists and psychiatrists have only studied sick
people. People like Freud never found a meditator or a Buddha to study”… Who told him so? He is still thinking that
psychology is all about Freud..(He obviously got this from Osho) But most of the Freud’s theories have been
rejected by modern psychologists.. Hundreds of modern psychologists have been studying meditators and
enlightened buddhist teachers and have found amazing results.. A lot of mindfulness meditation therapies have
been created to improve well being, reduce stress, cure insomnia and depression and more and more…. Many
neuroscientists have written books about spiritual enlightenment and they are doing research on it… Does
Sadhguru even know this or he is still going to rely on Osho’s books which were talks that Osho gave two to three
decades ago? When Osho criticized Psychology he was absolutely right, because ideas of Freud was popular at that
time and it is true that he was only studying sick people… But after thirty years, things have changed a lot!!
After reading comments from people who bash the author of this blog, I can’t help but asking ‘why do you people
ridicule science like this? it is because of Science that you are able to comment on this blog.. it is because of science
and technology Sadhguru can give webinars, travel all around the world and broadcast Shivrathri programs live on
TV….
Just because Isha Yoga techniques work on your well being, it doesn’t mean whatever Sadhguru says is right… Osho
said that enlightened people are also infallible… Even Sadhguru doesn’t encourage blind believers… So,if some one
points out that what Sadhguru said is wrong, you people should have the open-mindedness and courage to admit it
and also tell Sadhguru that he was wrong….
Read my whole story here: https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/05/10/the-journey-of-a-seeker-my-story/

.. I have so much to tell you about these things… I have also provided links to various authentic scienti c resources
about research that has been conducted on spiritual enlightenment and meditation…
If Isha has helped you towards your well being, that is beautiful… But just stop getting too emotional about
criticisms against Sadhguru… If you are really meditating, you should have less emotional reactivity… The obsessive
need for blindly defending anyone itself comes from the obsessive clinging to your ego..
I wish to end with following quote from Buddha:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. …
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
But when, after observation and analysis, you nd anything that agrees with reason, and is conducive to the good
and bene t of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
– Buddha, Kalama Sutta
Nye
May 28, 2017 at 11:53 am
First of all this article is heavily awed in it’s assumption that Sadhguru was trying to explain the universe in
scienti c terms. He has always said that modern science functions upon intellect and intellect can only dissect and
percieve things in bits and pieces but never the whole picture. So what Sadhguru is talking about is not supposed to
be understood purely based on logic. He has also said several times that you can’t talk about the truth you can only
talk around it since truth is the fundamental basis of reality so it’s always there. He has also said many times that
you don’t need to go into the universe to know what it is because whatever you experience you experience it within
you. So if you turn inward you can know the entire universe. If you want to make sense of this we can put it this
way. Human body is fundamentally composed of Carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen. Most of the universe is
also composed of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen. So the universe and you are made of the same thing just
in di erent structures and patterns. Neil Degrasse Tyson said that himself and he’s an astrophysicist. He also said
that you are not in the universe the universe is within you. Now when an astrophysicist says that you put trust in
him but if sadhguru says it you don’t. Don’t try to perceive life with pure logic which is what science does and it’s
been very good at nding useful things and producing technology but you can’t know life by science or logic but
only by experience.
Nye
May 28, 2017 at 12:45 pm
@FS What you said is correct although that only applies when you’re talking about permanent magnets a ecting
blood and hemoglobin which it doesn’t since it relies on ferromagnetic properties. But Earth’s magnetic eld
doesn’t work that way. Earth’s magnetic eld works like an electromagnet since it functions from Earth’s liquid core
like running current through a wire in an electromagnet. Also in the US a study was performed which found
consisted of creating a tube with electromagnetic elds and placing people in it and seeing how it a ects the blood
and hemoglobin aligns itself with electromagnetic eld which is measured in Tesla’s. Also in India studies were
performed where participants are told to sleep in di erent positions and they found that participants sleeping in
South had lower blood pressure, heart rate and better sleep than people sleeping in north. It had to do with our
organs which are sensitive to electromagnetic elds such as pineal gland and eyes both of which regulate sleep
patterns. “E ect of electromagnetic forces of earth on human biological system” – Abha Shrivastava, K.K. Mahajan,
V. Kalra, K.S.Negi is the name of the study if you wanna look at it. So yes oxygenated hemoglobin isn’t
ferromagnetic but neither is earth so that argument only works at debunking the myth that magnetic bracelets
a ect your overall health and other pseudoscience. What sadhguru said was completely reasonable and correct
but a lot of people are quick to look things up and try to prove him wrong. Anyways he also said it won’t hurt you
immediately but over time slowly it may start causing damage so do what you will but get your science right before
you start calling other people’s arguments pseudoscience. Also oxygenated hemoglobin behaves di erently from
non oxygenated hemoglobin which is how fMRI’s work that detect brain activity. It uses magnetic eld to detect the
di erence between the two and create an image of course it’s much more complicated than I’m describing but
that’s a simpler way of putting it. I love it when people doubt other people’s explanation which I loved about your
comment but hate that it’s not backed up by proper science in it’s right context.
R S Chakravarti
May 28, 2017 at 1:30 pm
@Nye (reply to comment of 11:53) “If you turn inward you can know the entire universe.” Are you saying we can
learn all of, say, Physics in this way?
Ravi
May 30, 2017 at 3:55 pm
@Nye
 Also in India studies were performed where participants are told to sleep in different positions and they
found that participants sleeping in South had lower blood pressure, heart rate and better sleep than people
sleeping in north
I would largely ignore “studies” like these. They are done with poor controls and are typically unreplicable. There
are a lot of junk studies out there. A majority of study results are demonstrably false. Don’t confuse this as a
limitation of science. It is just that certain types of research questions require rather elaborate setups that many
investigators don’t/can’t invest in. Unless a result has been consistently replicated, don’t jump to conclusions in a
hurry.
From the abstract, the paper you cited looks like a absurd paper, written in a low-impact journal that barely got
cited by anyone.
Even the authors agree that they have not settled the question, but that “further studies are needed” (a standard
“hedging” phrase that is all too common). I don’t see that the authors themselves bothered to follow-up, which
would happen if they actually believed they were onto something.
 intellect can only dissect and percieve things in bits and pieces but never the whole picture.
Name a few things that have not been perceived by “intellect”. By that I mean things we can all agree on, not
subjective beliefs, cultural notions etc. I would say exactly the opposite – it is ONLY intellect that gives you the big
picture – evolution, cosmos, sub-atomic reality etc.
 you can’t talk about the truth you can only talk around it since truth is the fundamental basis of reality so
it’s always there.
That makes no sense. Of course you can talk about reality. That is what science does.
Sounds to me because all Jagadish does is a lot of talking around, he wants to claim that it is all everyone else does
as well.
 So if you turn inward you can know the entire universe.

Name one thing we found out about the universe by turning “inward” i.e. by meditating.
 Most of the universe is also composed of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen
Helium and Neon are more common than Carbon and Nitrogen in the universe. Not a lot of those in our bodies.
 So the universe and you are made of the same thing just in different structures and patterns.
That is like arguing that since computer chips are made of silicon, we can learn computer science and
semiconductor technology by just meditating on sand in the lotus position.
 you are not in the universe the universe is within you

Sounds more like Eckhart Tolle (whose mystical content, Jagadish probably recycles), than Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Care to point to the actual quote?
Now when an astrophysicist says that you put trust in him but if sadhguru says it you don’t.

Don’t try to perceive life with pure logic which is what science does
Show me where someone like Neil Degrasse Tyson says: don’t put all your stock in logic. That is exactly the opposite
of what he would say. Down-playing logic is Jagadish’s job, because he is neither scienti c nor logical. You won’t
hear Neil deGrasse Tyson saying that.
 it’s been very good at nding useful things and producing technology but you can’t know life by science or
logic
If you think the point of science is just to be useful and make toys, you completely missed the point of science.
Understanding the scale of the universe and its origins, the process of evolution, our genetic closeness to other life,
the details of biochemical reactions inside us, the mechanics of the human brain… all these profoundly e ect our
philosophical evaluation – not just make things more convenient.
Any one can manufacture a worthless metaphysics out of thin air, which is what countless god-men have done, and
a god-man is who Jagadish is, one among many.
Knowing actual reality is a completely di erent matter. That is what science does. A real “Sadguru” is Newton,
Einstein, Bohr etc. They were the real gurus who taught us real things. It is not much of an honor to impress
scienti cally and philosophically unequipped middle-class and give oneself a title like “Sadguru”. Tell me one single
thing that Jagadish discovered about “Truth” to become a guru.
 but only by experience.

The entire point of the scienti c method is that we go astray when we go by “experience”. So we need math and
rigorous data collection to guide us. Any one can talk pseudo-intellectual smack, but meticulous data collection and
proper analysis is golden.
Nye
May 30, 2017 at 11:04 pm
It’s a little biased to ignore studies you disagree with. A lot of studies would be accepted by you just because they
go along with your assumptions but they are backed up by multinational corporations isn’t that corrupted. A few
decades ago smoking cigarettes was proven to not show any damage and provide health bene ts but later once
they found it these were backed up by cigarette and tobacco companies all the studies were carefully looked into
and proven wrong. When I said there are hydrogen, carbon, oxygen and nitrogen in our body I mean to say it
makes up 96% of our body so it makes up majority of our body. When the big bang happened 75% of the universe
was hydrogen and only 25% was helium. Even now the most mass abundant chemicals in the universe are carbon,
hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. I can tell you many things that the intellect has not percieved. With all the science
no one has ever even seen an atom. We know how to use it how to make models of it and how to detect it but we
don’t know what it is. There is no experiential knowledge of it. We still don’t know how the body works. We can’t
make sense of quantum physics even though that same intellect or logic explains classic physics. There are many
theories in science but don’t forget these are just theories why? Because we haven’t understood these things fully
we only know parts of it whether it’s physics or biology. Even scientists themselves know they can’t understand
things fully. Theory of evolution explains many things but still many other things cannot be explained by it like
abrupt appearance of species in the fossil record which doesn’t support the theory and we still haven’t found what
our common ancestors with other primates was. Neil degrasse never said don’t follow logic he just said the
universe is within you. Science can’t answer a lot of things like consciousness. And science really can’t explain how
the body works they can just perceive bits of pieces of it and work with that on how to use the knowledge to help
the body. A doctor doesn’t really heal you directly he just knows which chemicals to use and which procedures to
perform so our cells respond in repairing if our cells didn’t have the ability to repair itself doctors would be of no
use. And science does produce toys and technology otherwise how would it be funded? It would be of no use to the
economy or society it would only serve to explain a few things but no one would care if it didn’t produce
technology. Even now a lot of studies and research is not getting enough funding because companies which hold
power and money don’t care unless it helps them make more money. Yes individually science serves a purpose for
you and gives you knowledge and lets you explore your passion but if it didn’t produce technology it wouldn’t be
funded. The budget of NASA right now is about 0.5% of the national budget but back when NASA was supposed to
send people on the moon it has a bigger budget because it ful lled the national purpose of driving the economy
and showing o to the world the power of the country. Experiential knowledge is the most important kind of
knowledge because according to science light re ects from objects falls into your retina inverted and then
processed by your brain but in your experience it doesn’t happen like that does it? It happens much di erently
experientially. If I give you a ower right now you have will experiential knowledge of looking at it and smelling it
and will know what the ower is but if I give it to a scientist he will cut it open and learn about it and he will know a
lot more about it than you but in the process the ower will be destroyed and he still won’t know what the ower is.
So the nature of the intellect is always to rip things apart to understand it. Anyways the debate was about
something totally di erent. Even if you go by science the Earth’s magnetic eld works like an electromagnet and
that’s what I wanted to point out in your post cause you assumed it works like a permanent magnet but it doesn’t.
Also yeah scientists assume it works like an electromagnet but they are not absolutely sure since we have never
reached the core of the earth. But the argument that there is no possibility that sleeping position a ects health
because hemoglobin isn’t ferromagnetic is false. All I’m saying is there may be a possibility of it and most likely it’s
true. If I ever become a researcher it’s something I would look at it I could try this on someone else myself. But
denying it on quick assumptions is an immature way of going about addressing this.
Ravi
May 31, 2017 at 5:36 am
It’s a little biased to ignore studies you disagree with.

No, I am saying that ALL small studies like this are suspect. And it isn’t just my opinion. It is a well demonstrated
nding from John Ioannidis of Stanford, one of the top researchers in the world. He nds that small studies, or as
one of my mentors calls them – little dinky studies… are about as good as a coin ip… in other words worthless.
To be sure, there are cases when small studies are enough, but those are very special cases with distributions of
speci c statistical properties. This isn’t one of them.
Let us not get into non-falsi able conspiracy theories shall we? Yes, crooked researchers can mislead the public. So
can sloppy and incompetent researchers as in this case. The scienti c method works, but only when it is
meticulously applied.
That there have been crooked researchers in the past is all the more reason to look even more carefully at the
methods, biases and con icts of interest.
The study you pointed is silly. There is a reason why such studies attract no attention. If you have not been taught
to critically read research, you would naturally fall for every tiny nonsensical “study” that lines up with YOUR biases.
 I can tell you many things that the intellect has not percieved.
And I can tell you that nearly 100% of what these mystics say is horse manure. They NEVER added anything to the
body of knowledge. Go ahead, give me counter examples.
Note that I asked to name things that the intellect cannot lead you to, but your mystics can. None of your examples
t that. Science needs to discover more about the atom? Sure. But does a mystic add to that? The Theory of
Evolution needs more detail. Sure. What does Jagadish have to contribute to that?
My question still stands: What did Jagadish contribute to our understanding of the Truth?
There is no experiential knowledge of it.
You don’t need “experiential” (as in human sensory) knowledge of everything. Human senses are limited, but

technology can reliably extend them. Proper mathematical sense of things is almost always far superior to anything
sensory/experiential, when it comes to Truth (capital T).
 but don’t forget these are just theories

This tired old argument? Science theories, are not “just” theories. They have a lot of data and critical validation to
back them up. Anyway, are you actually comparing the mystical mumbo-jumbo of god-men with scienti c theories?
The former have ZERO evidence.
 we haven’t understood these things fully

This is the standard line of argument by people who push pseudo-science. Science hasn’t answered everything, so
listen to this complete nonsense instead.
 Even scientists themselves know they can’t understand things fully.

“No, our science is no illusion. But an illusion it would be to suppose that what science cannot give us we can get
elsewhere.” – Freud
If science cannot give you knowledge about something, don’t assume that you can get it from mystics and
charlatans. All they give you are feel good explanations – no relation to Truth at all.
Again, simple question: tell me what all these god-men (and women) have discovered? Anything at all?
 abrupt appearance of species in the fossil record which doesn’t support the theory
many other things cannot be explained by it like abrupt appearance of species in the fossil record which
doesn’t support the theory.
Note that “abrupt” here is 25 million years. There are plenty of explanations well within the theory with regards to
the causes.
he just said the universe is within you

Again, link to the full quote. I am pretty sure you are taking it out of context.
 Science can’t answer a lot of things like consciousness

Unlike mystics, science knows the extent to which it understands consciousness. The mystics know absolutely
nothing about it, but still talk as if they know plenty about it. Tell me one thing that Jagadish told you about
consciousness that you could not have gotten from science.
 science really can’t explain how the body works

Come back after you nished a textbook on physiology.
 A doctor doesn’t really heal you directly he just knows which chemicals to use and which procedures to
perform so our cells respond in repairing
Sounds great to me. Your magic quacks can’t do even that. They just convince you they healed you when they did
absolutely nothing. Any objective evaluation exposes them.
 because companies which hold power and money don’t care

Companies are not required to care. People and governments should. If more people hold your views on science, I
can see why people don’t want to see their taxes to go to science, but would instead rather spend on religion and
god-men.
Experiential knowledge is the most important kind of knowledge


Every modern physicist or for that matter just about any scientist would disagree with you. Hard analysis is king,
not experience.
 But denying it on quick assumptions
Learn about the philosophical burden of proof in science. You make a claim, it is your job to prove it (not just argue
for some remote plausibility), not mine. Until then, I can absolutely reject it.
Jagadish has a lot of charisma. That is pretty much a requisite for god-men. So he has you in a hold. Don’t confuse
that with actual intellect and wisdom. All these god-men do is establish personality cults.
Nye
May 31, 2017 at 12:08 pm
First of all he is not claiming to teach you anything that science can teach you. Why would he waste his time on
that? Why do you assume he is competing with science and trying to give you knowledge in his talks. All he is there
for is to make you capable enough to know existence yourself without needing external tools to understand the
fundamental basis of life. Saying he is a God man is like saying every scientist is a crazy evil villain. Stop making
stereotypes from your limited assumptions. All he has ever done is try to rip apart every belief you ever hold
whether in God or in science. Science has its limit cause it’s physical and everything that is physical has its limit.
Theory of Evolution can’t explain everything and that is a fact. Even big studies are heavily awed. So many studies
are done on weight loss diets each year and every year science goes back and forth on what’s healthy and what’s
not. Government should nd science but it doesnt. Not everything in life is fair so don’t think this should happen or
this shouldn’t happen what’s reality is reality and you either accept it and start changing it or get stuck in ideals. I
am not taking Neil degrasse’s quote out of context. If I wasn’t typing from my phone I would link it up but go on
YouTube and watch him do a hot wing challenge and listen to end of the video he says all this in it’s right context.
What have mystics produced? Well if you wanna go logically their methods are totally absurd and stupid cause how
can closing your eyes and sitting down doing nothing be productive or lead to better health? If you look at this from
a evolutionary perspective our bodies aren’t made to be stagnant and sit still but for some reason it’s makes us
healthier and more capable and is more productive. How? If it helps shouldn’t evolution support this? But it doesn’t
support it and those are the kind of things science cannot explain. What it can explain is that after meditating you
are healthier, have lower stress and are more productive and numerous studies con rm this. There is a reason why
things like yoga and meditation are catching up in a big way. Sadhguru is always a Yogi rst and science didn’t
produce yoga our so called dumb ancestors did according to you I guess since you believe that just because they
didn’t have modern science their way of thinking produced nothing good. India had looked into so so many things
in a detailed way everything from astronomy to biology had been looked at in ancient India and there are texts that
detail all of these things. They knew all about the planets and their movements well before modern science. Ancient
Yogi’s even discovered the speed of light like 15,000 years ago since it’s written down in the books if you translate it.
Don’t believe me? Google it or read the original ancient textbooks. You will de nitely ght me on this but if you look
at what’s written down and convert the numerical value to English and do the math it gives us the exact same
answer that modern science did. Coincidence? No it’s pure science just di erent ways of discovering things. One
was done through experiental knowledge and other was done with modern science. India was so far advanced in
mathematics that modern science couldn’t have existed without it yet India was seen as uneducated by Western
societies cause it didn’t have any science. As far as Freud goes well all he studied was mentally sick people. He
never studied anyone healthy or people like Buddha. So don’t base your psychology on him. And sense perception
too is limited if your experience is limited to that but inner experience isn’t based on senses. Scienti c tools are
good for measuring things but inner experience will take you beyond certain things. Yogi’s and mystics had
discovered many many things like pineal gland which science ignored for a long time or predicting planetary
movement or looking at the science of food. Science has its place in society and as far as sadhguru goes he has
always said his goal is to confuse the hell out of you so you realize that you don’t know anything and that’s when
you really have a longing and a possibility to know. If you have made too many assumptions based on science then
that will not get you anywhere. Just look at your life from a logical perspective it’s so meaningless and repetitive. If
you look at life logically it’ll make you depressed but if you just live life without having the burden of logic then you
will know life in it’s full capacity. You should be able to use logic when you want and you should be able to drop it
when you don’t need it. Logic doesn’t work in nany situations I like lovelationships, inner experience or going
beyond the physical but I’m sure science looks at those things too from a logical perspective. Science can tell us
exactly what it is like to fall in love but is it the same as actually falling in love? You know it isn’t but this shows that
science has its limits. Sadhguru never answers the question he always answers the questioner. If you think he
should give you all the answers then you should look for some other guru. He is only there to help you become
capable enough to handle yourself so that all of life’s possibility is available to you not to prove things scienti cally
or explain everything directly.
Ravi
June 1, 2017 at 9:05 am
 First of all he is not claiming to teach you anything that science can teach you.
Did you read the article? The entire point was that he thinks scientists don’t get it (you don’t get it because your
programming has been complete) and you can meditate your way to scienti c knowledge.
 Why do you assume he is competing with science and trying to give you knowledge in his talks.
Well, he has no “knowledge” to give. That has been settled. The article was about his “competition” with science,
which it documents.
 All he is there for is to make you capable enough to know existence yourself without needing external tools
to understand the fundamental basis of life.
He had a religious experience. Please look it up. It is an altered sense perception. It was what Mohammad had in a
cave. It is what evangelicals call being “saved”. It what people get by chanting and doing meditative rituals. Please
look it up. Does it change the subject’s perspective? Yes. Is there some actual “knowledge” accessible through it?
None. Atoms won’t “yield” to you when you look at them.
BTW, you asked if science can see an atom. Look up scanning tunneling microscope
 All he has ever done is try to rip apart every belief you ever hold
That BTW is a characteristic of cults. Pick up any book on cults. There are several books that discuss cult
psychology. Most involve deconstruction of some sort… breaking up your existing beliefs, leading you to a sense of
confusion, from which the cult leader can shape you as his own.
 Science has its limit cause it’s physical and everything that is physical has its limit.
Physical is all there is. There is no spirit. Science has limits, mystics have even more. If science stops at 99, mystics
don’t even start from a 0.
 science goes back and forth on what’s healthy and what’s not
That is an essential nature of statistics. Things that produce minor e ects, after long periods of time, with multiple
intervening/confounding factors require far greater e ort than pinning down whether a drug that produces large
e ects and acts immediately, works or not. You don’t need to pay a lot of attention to small diet studies for the
same reason you should not be paying attention to the so-called “study” you talked about. You need to study
statistics to understand this better – this is a math issue. Unfortunately, popular press plays up the importance of
these studies, more than they warrant.
 Not everything in life is fair

I don’t think life is fair, but we still can think about where we need to be.
 I am not taking Neil degrasse’s quote out of context.

Yes, you were. Perhaps not by intention. First, you did not notice that he quali ed the list of elements with
“chemically active”. Second, this is a variation of Carl Sagan’s (who was almost his PhD mentor, he declined Sagan’s
o er) quote – “We are made of star stu ”. The point of his quote was however that we are all the same. We think
we are special, but we are not. Now, can you accept that Jagadish is the same as you? You don’t accept a guy with
no medical degree to operate on you. Why would you look for science critique from a guy with a BA in literature?
You don’t understand basic research methods in medicine because you never took a statistics course and that is
normal. It is also normal for Jagadish who has not taken a science class since he was 15 years old, some 40-45 years
ago, to not at all get what science is… which is the point of the article. If he wants to talk about his personal and
subjective (but not really special) religious experience, that is ne. But it does not give him any insights to comment
on what science is or isn’t.
You should also understand according to Neil’s argument that our experiences are not that di erent, even though
we have an illusion we are special – that a very large number of people have these so-called “religious/spiritual
experiences” and that the scienti c community understands them well as temporarily altered sensory states (that
of course change people’s subjective perspective of their lives later). We can even replicate them… using scienti c
means… with about 90% precision (requirement for this is that you should already be religious in some way – does
not matter which religion). You still have a lot to learn about the science of religion/spirituality. Yes, everything is a
science, including what you imagine to be spiritual – even that is a province of science. Again, of course, there are
gaps and more work is always needed – that useless phrase again. But as comedian Dana O’Brian puts it – “Science
Knows It Doesn’t Know Everything… Otherwise It Would Stop.”. You and Jagadish don’t know that you don’t know –
the very thing you confusedly think is what science does.
 for some reason it’s makes us healthier and more capable and is more productive.
It does not. Most of the meditative e ects is from slow breathing. There is some value in that. It does not matter
whether you say Om or Donald Duck. Slow breathing does alter your cardio-vascular system somewhat, (as does
fast breathing – to the other side). Too much chanting and meditation also reportedly causes people to become
scatter-brained. It does not give you super powers mentally. Obviously, if you are in these cult bubbles, everyone
keeps giving testimonies about how awesome meditation has been for them and providing positive reinforcement.
Most of the meditation studies are low quality studies… for about the same design problems as diet studies and
your sleeping position study. You just don’t mind the later because it conforms to YOUR biases.
Yoga’s e ects have also been over-played. Please refer to the article on Yoga on this web site. First, Yoga practiced
today has little to do with what your ancestors did. Second, there is little evidence to show that it is signi cantly
better than equivalent exercise methods, in other forms (most studies are again low quality and don’t even bother
with these basic controls). Sure, it beats sitting in Sofa and watching TV though.
 They knew all about the planets and their movements well before modern science.
If you mean that they thought that Sun and moon were planets in the same sense (because they all moved across
the sky – graha) and that they thought the shadows of earth on sun and moon were also planets and that
everything went around the earth, not around the sun, then yes – “They” were well ahead of modern science. That
was sarcasm BTW.
 Ancient Yogi’s even discovered the speed of light like 15,000 years ago since it’s written down in the books if
you translate it.
Please don’t believe any garbage Google will nd for you. That very Tyson video you mentioned talked about this.
Watch it at 6 minutes. He is talking exactly about people like you. But you do… and that is how you will believe any
garbage Jagadish will tell you.
 As far as Freud goes well all he studied was mentally sick people.
You are playing Jagadish like a tape recorder. Like a cult leader, Jagadish has deconstructed you and lled you up
with himself.
 So don’t base your psychology on him.

Don’t worry. I don’t. His ideas are way out of date. But they were not bad for the time and were an interesting start.
Many of the Freud’s quotes still hold well though. And that quote had nothing to do with his psychology ideas.
 inner experience will take you beyond certain things.

Why don’t you just say “inner engineering”, just to be a perfect tape recorder.
Yogi’s and mystics had discovered many many things like pineal gland

No that was later revisionism. There is no ancient text you can quote that talks about the pineal gland unless you
bend over backwards. Go ahead, cite the text.
 predicting planetary movement

Everyone had geocentric astronomy. Read up.
 science of food
What science? They had humoral theory. They knew nothing about nutrients as we do today.
 as far as sadhguru goes he has always said his goal is to confuse the hell out of you so you realize that you
don’t know anything
And he succeeded with you. Cult leaders generally succeed when their acolytes did not have much grounding to
begin with. That was the point of the article.
“In general, the educated middle class (in India and elsewhere) is not educated well enough to reject
pseudoscience, yet people remember enough science from high school to be awed by popular
(mis)representations. Since most people last encounter rigorous science in high school, much of what one should
know about science is forgotten later in life.”
 Just look at your life from a logical perspective it’s so meaningless and repetitive.
I am sorry to hear yours is from a logical perspective. Mine isn’t.
 If you look at life logically it’ll make you depressed

It won’t. Properly understand existentialism.
 you just live life without having the burden of logic then you will know life in it’s full capacity
You certainly succeeded in the rst part.
 You should be able to use logic when you want and you should be able to drop it when you don’t need it
We rationalists have been long embarrassed about many of our so-called scientists in India for this exact reason.
They seem to drop their logic, like their aprons, after they step out of the lab and go do a pooja, lookup a
horoscope and break a coconut. For them, science and logic are not profound philosophical positions, but mere job
skills for a paycheck.
Bala
June 1, 2017 at 10:18 am
This diatribe has become exasperating.
Everything about science is generalized while spirituality is rooted in Jagadish solely? Where is the sense in that?
A portion of the blame is also due to the supporters of Jagadish. It is important to rise up over the man himself and
look deeper.
And Ravi, if you think every ancient civilization believed in a geocentric model of the heavenly bodies you have a lot
of reading up to do. And yes, just as you repeatedly ask others to brush up on their science, it is time for you to
read some history. Unbiased ones, if you can nd them. It is not the others’ duty to nd and quote material on this
to enlighten you.
Just stepping back a bit, today science is being vehemently and needlessly ‘defended’ by self styled missionaries
with corresponding zeal and ardour. Science is not religion and to be exact it is not Abrahamic that it requires such
defense and for everyone to espouse only it’s gospel as the only Truth!
For the defenders of Jagadish, what changes is science. What does not is religion. Again, more or less… So while
doctors kept on proclaiming that coconut oil was bad for cholestrol, today they do a somersault and exclaim
without shame that there is precious little called bad cholestrol and that coconut oil is now ‘kosher’.
The last point but nevertheless the rst item for consideration in this argument is that 21st century man cannot put
on his sunglasses and choose to look upon ancient man and ascribe and assume endlessly as to customs, activities,
theories etc. Perspective is key. And that takes time.
Religion of yesteryears was necessarily philosophy, science and faith all rolled into one. That we split these into
branches is not their fault.
There is not going to be a common consensus on this subject and neither does there need to be. Plurality of
thought and diversity of belief system is a gift and a pride of the East. In particular, India. Let us not degenerate into
the syndrome of homogeneity.
Nye
June 1, 2017 at 10:24 am
Didn’t you claim that science had the whole picture instead of having bits and pieces? And now you are claiming
science doesn’t know anything. If science has proper grasp of everything or even a proper understanding or a
whole picture of one single atom then there would be no need to look more into it right? If you have all the
information and a whole picture then you wouldn’t need more information. It’s only because science is gathering
limited information that more and more information is needed because it cannot grasp the whole picture. Also the
studies you are mentioning about religious people are not any better than the ones you claim to be not trustworthy
or be too small to be reliable. And you’re already working with wrong information calling Sadguru a man of religion.
He believes in no damn religious and neither do any of his followers. He shatters all previous beliefs whether
religious or false assumptions about life. Religion and spirituality are two totally separate things. Spirituality means
seeking and religion means believing. Hinduism itself isn’t even a religion. It has no particular God that you need to
worship or any code of beliefs. Hinduism has over a million gods only because it allowed people to worship
whoever they wanted. It doesn’t even have a book like the Quran or the Bible with commandments. In bhagvat
Geeta which isn’t a constitutional book of religion it’s just lled with one person questioning god and if it was a
religion there would be no room for questions since religion relies on not questioning and purely believing. There
are all kinds of people who practice Hinduism and each can worship their own God and make their own rules so it
doesn’t really qualify for a religion although this has changed a lot over the past few centuries due to invasions and
what not. Also you can call those Indian scientists illogical or crazy but they contribute a lot to science and can do
more amazing things with science than any so called logical people. Ramanujan was a famous mathematician who
was so ahead of his time that his calculations from 1900’s are being used now to discover black holes when they
didn’t even know black holes were a thing. His calculations and contributions were so profound but other English
professors rejected him and called him crazy. They criticized him and didn’t give him credit at rst. Ramanujan had
no formal education never was taught any math and he just knew math equations they came to him without
learning and other mathematicians were angry cause he never provided proper proof. Ramanujan was invited to
England cause his math was just too amazing to deny but it had no proof so they made him work on basic math
and he sucked at it. He was a very very religious man and said all he did was worship his Devi in a temple and that’s
where all these equations just came to him out of nowhere. Now I don’t believe any of that or sadhguru or god for
any reason since I don’t believe anything but I do know that as far as what I’ve looked into it seems ramanujan
somehow was really gifted and his theories were correct and are still being practiced today to discover amazing
things in this universe yet he had no formal education so not everything can be explained by science and logic.
Sadhguru never competed with science so the approach of this article is false. All sadhguru did was give his
perspective on science and he never even asked anyone to believe him or disbelieve him and he doesn’t give a shit
anyways. Not everything is science. There is art, poetry, literature, history, and so many more things. Everything has
its place in society so don’t give one any more importance than another. Just learn to accept it if not enjoy it. As far
as science it has its place and can reveal a lot but not everything. Someone once said that science and mathematics
are things humans do to survive but English, poetry, art these are the things we live for. If our lives were not
beautiful and were solely logical it would be a horrible life. A society could never exist without beautiful aspects of
life. There is a scienti c perspective to all those subjects I mentioned but let’s not forget other perspectives do exist.
I am studying biology myself but I am decent enough to understand that what I know I know and what I don’t know
I don’t know. And for yoga and meditation it’s not just breathing. If that was all there was to it then everyone could
teach you how to breathe and doctors wouldn’t be prescribing anti anxiety and depression meds. There is scienti c
evidence that meditation has anti aging properties. All this from just breathing? There is a lot more to it. And yeah
you can say anything instead of saying Om who told you that you have to say Om? Try saying something else and
see the di erence between that and Om. If it works for you great if not just say Om. There is a whole technique to
di erent types of meditation. And I’m not believing garbage on Google. There is pieces of text recorded in history
and by translation it equals to speed of light. You can believe it or disbelief it but what di erence does it make? All
I’m saying is that our ancestors were not as stupid as you think they are. If the math matches and there is historical
record for it then what other explanation is there for it? It just shows that maybe our ancestors had a few things
gured out for themselves or there is a possibility they may have done it before modern science. You can go on
arguing forever but there is really no use to it. I don’t see any di erence between you and a person who is religious.
Some people are not willing to believe anything just because religion says so and neither will they accept any logical
explanations or calculations about existence or life. Some people won’t believe or accept anything you tell them
unless it’s in their experience.
Abhijit
June 1, 2017 at 10:55 am
This is the worst time wasting thread I have ever come across,so putting a single nal comment here.The point of
scienti c endeavor is not to disprove Jaggi Vasudev’s grasp on physics,which is just one of the myriads of topics
possible to be explored.Whether he’s genuine,a quack,or anything in between,he must have conducted 100s of
workshops,talks,appearances all the while all over the world on whatever he has to o er, while our great scientists
here have been busy playing keyboard ninjas.Why don’t you actually go ahead and discover a new material to build
bridges,or a technology to cure cancer,just examples..it could be any actual piece of scienti c work,and once you
receive your accolades,quote to the whole world that you are the same Nirmukta science crusader who also
con dently puts down Jaggi?? People will take you much more seriously.Ofcourse,the assumption is that you
yourself have scienti c pursuit as your priority.Einstein had no time at all in disproving people from other walks of
life.The “scientists” here seem juvenile by comparison
R S Chakravarti
June 1, 2017 at 2:35 pm
I don’t think Abhijit is justi ed in sayng that only those who have received accolades should think of criticising Jaggi.
His example, Einstein, is a bad one. Einstein used to get into controversies.
The messages here assert that Jaggi has in uenced many to come to wrong conclusions about the scienti c
method and scienti c facts. I agree with that.
Ravi
June 2, 2017 at 6:38 am
@Nye
 And now you are claiming science doesn’t know anything

I did?! You read “Science Knows It Doesn’t Know Everything” as “science doesn’t know anything”, just as you
misunderstood what Neil was saying. BTW, I don’t think I ever disagreed with anything Neil has said… so far. If you
agree with him, you more or less agree with me. I am just not as articulate in presenting my views.
 He believes in no damn religious

He is a New Age mystic, along the same lines as Deepak Chopra. Happy?
Hinduism itself isn’t even a religion


Funny thing is the Christian cultists I once lived with also kept insisting that they were not practicing any religion. No
sir, they were only seeking and practicing “The Truth”.
Let’s get a few things out of the way.
I know that eastern religions are di erent from Abrahamic religions in many ways.
I don’t disrespect ancients of any culture. I would have believed the same things if I lived then. I admire even those
who created humoral theories, geocentric theories etc. They were necessary stepping stones in human intellectual
evolution. It just gets annoying that people still continue to cling to the past however.
I feel that India and China, will in a few decades, become the major engines of science. My complaints are against
the ideas that are holding us back, our refusal to subject ideas to higher standards of critique.
I am perfectly aware of the irrationality and sometimes strains of actual insanity that run amongst mathematical
geniuses, regardless of the country. Everything is ne for geniuses who produce – we make way. Not for you and
me.
Nowhere have I discounted literature, arts etc. I spent time pursuing liberal arts for the sheer pleasure of it.
I am perfectly aware that ideas do emerge intuitively. In fact I argued in one of my research projects that space
should be provided for abductive reasoning. That does not mean it releases me from normal burdens of
veri cation by the scienti c method, once the idea was put forward.
 If that was all there was to it then everyone could teach you how to breathe
The issue isn’t that it is di cult to teach. The issue is that it isn’t enough to manage. It only goes so far.
 Some people won’t believe or accept anything you tell them unless it’s in their experience.
My position is just this: Claims are cheap. Language games are intellectually harmful (nearly all New Age quacks
play them). Popularity of a claim isn’t proof either. We should always ask for numbers. Critical approach is a good
thing, it is not closed mindedness.
And nally Nye – Please do check some books on guru cults and ask yourself, how much of this is also true for
Jagadish. I leave that to your judgment. Obviously, not everything will stick, they are all di erent variations. But I
think you will be surprised nevertheless.
None of this is personal, even when I am being sarcastic. I have treated you as an archetype of a certain kind of
thinking I deeply disagree with.
Good luck with your Biology studies.
@Abhijit
I am sorry, but there aren’t any Einsteins available today. You will have to settle for minions like me.
@Bala
 Just stepping back a bit, today science is being vehemently and needlessly ‘defended’ by self styled
missionaries with corresponding zeal and ardour
Where are you getting this picture from? Turn the TV on. Count the number of hours spent on various channels
promulgating pseudoscience – self-styled gurus, homeopaths, astrologers etc. Now count the number of hours you
see zealous science missionaries. Is it a ratio of 1000:1? I sure don’t recall any zealous “self styled” defenders of
science in any popular/mass media. All I see are quacks and charlatans. Science gets almost no voice of
representation amongst local content. I wish we frequently invited our desi professors to discuss cutting edge
research in their respective elds. We don’t.
The problem is exactly the reverse. We need orders of magnitude more pushback when pseudoscience nonsense is
put forward.
And what exactly do you expect on a rationalist web site, but the defense of science, the scienti c method and
criticism of god-men and pseudo-science? Were you expecting people here to be chummy with New Age “gurus”?
 doctors kept on proclaiming that coconut oil was bad for cholestrol
Long term e ects of diet was never something medical evidence was good at. This is because of the reasons we as
a society allow ourselves to do science – not a aw in the scienti c method. It is not the face of medical research,
but made to appear so by popular press by that emphasis. The face of medical research today is creating an Ebola
Vaccine and CRISPR – gene editing. Unfortunately, public cares about coconut oil more than the profound
implications of genomics technology because that is what they encounter everyday.
 This diatribe has become exasperating.

And it has been for me as well. I have a busy couple of weeks coming up. I am signing o .
Nye
June 2, 2017 at 6:44 am
Tired of your negative covfefe Ravi
abhijit
June 2, 2017 at 10:59 am
Ravi-Hahahahahaha good one on “settle for minions like me”…just made me type this one last comment(surely last
now ).Why should anyone settle for anyone less than world wide prominent if he wants to follow any eld?If I
want to learn the essence of science without being a professional physicist,I am sure I can watch all the Stefan
Hawking youtube footage possible.Yes,agreed, science isn’t getting the representation in popular media as it
should,but for that,you have to capture eyballs and imaginations through positive promotion.Let people get a small
sense of all the good changes science is at the cusp of bringing to our world and you’ll get much more recognition
and acceptance.While you devote years on this thread,Jaggi,charlatan or not,has made just a passing reference to
physics and has moved on,while you keep ogging a dead horse.Good luck and good bye!
Shanmugam
June 2, 2017 at 7:06 pm
I have been watching this post for the new comments and reading them with joy… And it has become very
interesting now.. So, I decided to comment to share my views…
Nye,
Let me quote what Ravi said in one of his comments.. “The entire point was that he thinks scientists don’t get it (you
don’t get it because your programming has been complete) and you can meditate your way to scienti c
knowledge.”…
Do you get the point? You seem to be saying all kinds of things just to defend Sadhguru and trying to prove that he
is always right.. My current view on spiritual enlightenment/awakening is exactly what Ravi said, but would like to
rephrase it a little bit.. “Spiritual awakening is a process that makes neuroplastic changes in the brain which in turn
reduces emotional reactivity, changes the perspective of self and makes an individual to be more relaxed and
peaceful in life.”… I myself have veri ed it through years of mindfulness practice (not by chanting mantras and
manipulating the breath though, so I can’t say if those practices also lead to spiritual awakening.. But there has
been numerous studies conducted about mindfulness meditation which has shown that it does reduce emotional
reactivity, changes the perspective of self and reduces a lot of self-referential thoughts in the brain)… But I am
skeptical of any other claim which implies paranormal stu … Look up ‘James Randi’ and also read about thousands
of studies done on paranormal stu and you will know no convincing evidence has been found on them yet… I have
read texts of Ramana, Ramakrishna, Osho and many others.. They all seemed to believe in paranormal stu but
nobody actually claimed that they had any such powers themselves… But Sadhguru has said about seeing auras,
seeing velliangiri mountains all the time in his eyes, seeing through things, controlling stu from distance,
energizing things and more… When such claims are made, it is natural for people to raise questions…
You say that Sadhguru is against religions… Religion is nothing but a particular system of beliefs. Even though he is
against certain beliefs, is he not giving you new beliefs? Don’t you believe in Sadhguru when he says he sees
velliangiri mountains all the time in his eyes?
You may repeat what Sadhguru said, “Don’t believe me or disbelieve me”… I agree with that attitude… It is nothing
other than being skeptical and open-minded at the same time.. But do you really have that attitude.? It seems that
you are blindly believing in Sadhguru and being close minded to science… But if you don’t know this, let me tell
you.. Science is all about being skeptical, open minded, accurate and maintaining objectivity. It is funny that he
advocates scienti c attitude but at the same time ridiculing science… Self-serving bias!
As I already mentioned, I have attended 2 Isha programs, went to ashram hundreds of times, and bought linga
bhairavi gudi and dhyanalinga yantra… Once, I used to have the same attitude that you have now… Later on I
discovered a few discrepancies about certain things and I also studied Psychology, which changed a lot of my
views.. It also helped me better understand about my own spiritual experiences… Now I think Science is doing a
pretty good job…And anyone who ridicules science is a complete idiot……
Also, your last lengthy comment sounded exactly like a Sadhguru’s discourse… Please for God’s sake, stop parroting
Sadhguru or anyone.. It is disgusting.. You are unique and have your own individuality… If you are losing it, you are
losing the most valuable thing in your life…
It is because of Science you are able to post a comment here.. It is because of Science NASA discovered the
possibility of life in a Saturn’s moon last month.. Do you have a cell phone? It is Science!.. Sadhguru is able to make
multiple trips to US because of science.. He can do webinars on the internet because of that… Science has given
you enough proof that it works, what more do you want?
You have created an unnecessary prejudice against Science because of believing in whatever Sadhguru says… If
Sadhguru says that scientists don’t get it, then that is just his quick, irrational, careless opinion.. Does it mean you
have to have the same opinion too?
At this point, I really don’t know if Sadhguru’s paranormal claims are true or not but I am sure that Science doesn’t
have any evidence yet and the long term research and million dollar challenges to nd evidence for these things
have only raised more disbelief in many people… But I am sure about one thing; people like you are creating more
embarrassment to Isha… Anyone who has average intelligence and has no connection to Sadhguru can see that
your mind has been completely programmed… I am starting to doubt whether you are a robot or human… I am
sorry if this is very rude but I think you should understand…I am not for or against Sadhguru at this point and my
comment is completely unbiased… If you want more of my opinions regarding this, you can check out the recent
articles in my blog…
Also, you have commented saying that Ravi is being negative.. What exactly do you mean by the word ‘negative’? I
went through his comment and it is perfect.. I don’t see anything negative in it..
Ravi,
I don’t think you are not articulate enough because you have made excellent arguments… But when you talked
about studies done on meditation, I got a question for you.. I do agree that many studies done on meditations are
very biased, may not be done in controlled conditions and only intended to increase the appeal for a particular
meditation technique taught in a particular organization. But what about mindfulness? It cannot be really said as a
meditation because mindfulness can be practiced when doing anything, like sipping wine, bathing, walking etc..
There is strong evidence for positive e ects of mindfulness which cannot be replaced by any other relaxing or
resting activities..
Nye
June 2, 2017 at 10:28 pm
That thing I said about him being negative was a joke. If you didn’t understand that then either you’re living in a
cave or are too serious to enjoy life. And science doesn’t allow me to use my phone and comment here technology
does. Science is just discovery about things that have always been here. Technology is making tools using science.
I’m trying to move away from what people call individuality since it’s nothing more than some bullshit that you
make up such as likes and dislikes, personality and tastes. It’s all self made and the kind of things you are saying
dont make you spiritual at all. Spirituality is just a word many people are throwing around without understanding
what it means to be spiritual. Mindfulness is another popular term that people like you use to decieve themselves
into thinking they are spiritual but they aren’t. All of Sadhguru’s e ort is to remove mindfulness not practice
mindfulness. Only because studies have been done on mindfulness that you support it. The problem with people
like you is that they don’t believe or try anything at all unless it’s backed up by countless studies which may be
saying one thing right now and another thing in the future. It doesn’t matter even if I give you something that will
change your life you will not try it unless it’s backed up by current science. If science is not sure about a few things
then de nitely it’s not realiable. If it’s still in the research phase then it surely needs some work without being
realible. You can go by science your whole life but you will just see how complicated and unful lling your life will
become. Paranormal things are just things that you can’t perceive right now. If you to a tribe in a jungle and show
o your technology I’m sure they will say that is paranormal and they wouldn’t have any proof of explaining it by
their logic but in reality is that really the case? I used to be like you constantly looking at science and ways to
improve my life with science but unfortunately science doesn’t know a whole lot of things. Scientists have
conducted studies on many many things but majority of the studies out there are incorrect so it doesn’t apply to
reality. Like in a scienti c journal they posted some number of studies that proposed treatment for cancer and
when they redid the studies 82% of them could not be reproduced. There are other problems with science like who
is funding it how it’s been done what analyses is there and is there more to look into? By the time you get all these
things right you would probably be so old that you wouldn’t even care. Science is a wonderful thing but it has no
use to me when I’m dealing with things that aren’t physical. You are just so focused on putting sadhguru down but
in reality you just want to feel bigger because you’re a scientist and he isn’t. It’s very easy to make yourself look big
by putting others down but you’re not really any big than anyone else. If you really dedicate yourself to living life
according to science you will just see how many things don’t make sense in your life yet you’re still doing it. It’s just
because you only think about science but not actually put it to any use in your life that you’re not realizing the
problems with science. And for me I am just doing what works best for me. Sadhguru has said that it’s a very
shameful thing to declare that you’re enlightened because the whole world will question you and bellitle you
because nothing you say will t into your logic. Most enlightened beings don’t talk at all and it’s best they don’t. I’m
glad most enlightened beings don’t reveal themselves sadhguru is just one of the stupid ones. Also you keep saying
India’s population isn’t smart enough to gure out science India’s middle class population isn’t smart enough well
I’m not part of the Indian population. I’m an American and there is so much research conducted here and once you
really dedicate yourself to science here at a university you see the vast di erence between research and reality. You
guys aren’t willing to live in reality you’re willing to live in research. You say you’re skeptical but all you’re doing is
shutting o your own logic and relying on scientists intellect since they’re smarter in your opinion so it’s best to
trust them. I don’t believe what sadhguru says and I don’t disbelief it either I just keep an open mind. Maybe the
things he says might be in his experience. How would I know? I’m not him so how can I claim it happened that way
or not. What you’re saying is no whatever he said cannot happen cause he’s talking paranormal stu and science
has no evidence for paranormal stu . Do you see the di erence? Which sounds more open minded? If you told
about some of the quantum physics to Isaac Newton when he was young he’d call you crazy and tell you that you
don’t know a single thing about science but he discovered law of gravity. All I’m showing you is that current
understanding isn’t enough to grasp things which aren’t in your understanding or experience yet so it’s best to keep
an open mind. Maybe 100 years from now all of science is found to be false every single piece of it and sadhguru is
100% correct what will you do then? Or maybe 100 years from now sadhguru is exposed to be totally crazy exposed
fake gurus like countless others and all the science he talked about was incorrect every bit of it what will you do
then? Instead of ghting one and supporting another why don’t you keep an open mind and just practice whatever
works best for you? I’m just doing what works best for me. If it didn’t I wouldn’t be doing it.
Shanmugam
June 2, 2017 at 11:14 pm
Wow, you have made a lot of assumptions about me Nye….
Again, you are simply repeating Sadhguru here… Technology depends on Science… If there is no science, there is no
technology…
When I say ‘individuality’ , I am not talking about likes and dislikes, personality and tastes.. I am talking about your
being, your uniqueness.. You obviously didnt get my point.. Have you ever heard of Buddha’s quote ‘Be a light onto
yourself’?.. That is what I am talking about.. I don’t think what I said was that hard to understand… Just repeating
what someone said can be done by a tape recorder, why do you want to be a tape recorder or parrot when you are
actually a human being with a fully developed brain (?)..
You say ‘Mindfulness is another popular term that people like you use to deceive themselves into thinking they are
spiritual but they aren’t’… That is the funniest thing I have ever heard…You obviously don’t understand what
mindfulness is.. It is one of the things in eight fold paths that Buddha advocated… It is called ‘sammasati’ in Pali.
When I was practicing ‘mindfulness’ , I didn’t even know the word ‘mindfulness’… The English word ‘Mindfulness’ is a
little misleading, when you just look at the word.. But mindfulness actually means being present and conscious, a
non-judgmental awareness of everything that happens in the present moment including thoughts and emotions..
And, I didn’t practice mindfulness because Science suggested it.. I was not a bit aware of any research done on
mindfulness when I practiced it.. But the fact that Science supports it was a good news that I came to know almost
12 years later. So, stop assuming things about me!
‘ Like in a scienti c journal they posted some number of studies that proposed treatment for cancer and when they
redid the studies 82% of them could not be reproduced’
That is the beauty of science… If the results of an experiment couldn’t be reproduced, then it will not be accepted in
science.. You are saying that like a problem in science. But in the domains that are not science, people just accept it
based on hearsay or just because some authority said it..
There are a lot of rants after that I really don’t feel like answering… It sounds like you vomited those words real
quick with a lot of anger.
You are talking about open mindedness and advising me to be open-minded.. When I said ‘At this point, I really
don’t know if Sadhguru’s paranormal claims are true or not’, did you read it properly? I only said ‘I don’t know’…
Because it is not in my experience.. If I have to know something like that it should either happen to me or at least
the reliable scienti c method should bring some evidence… I don’t go by beliefs, period.. Either I know or I don’t
know…
You have ended saying that “Instead of ghting one and supporting another why don’t you keep an open mind and
just practice whatever works best for you? I’m just doing what works best for me. If it didn’t I wouldn’t be doing it.”
I am ghting against blind beliefs and supporting the hard and fast knowledge that doesn’t rely on beliefs.. Thats it!
And you are asking me to practice what works for me… I practiced mindfulness and it worked for me… Is that clear?
I suggest you to read the comments carefully before you reply.. It seems you don’t get it properly.. At least, don’t
make me to keep repeating what I already said..
Nye
June 3, 2017 at 12:02 am
Actually 82% of studies not being reproducible is a big problem with science right now. Many scientists know that
and it’s not beauty it’s a problem. Cause if someone repeats your study they don’t know who made the error the
one repeating or the one who did the original research or if both made an error and a third person has to be
brought in. And the problem is that these studies are being published without being repeated so they’re wrong but
still being put out whereas they should repeat the studies verify the same result and only then get published but
that would be a nancial loss for scientists who are performing the study and the scienti c journals. Not only do I
think that many others also think that. What you’re calling as mindfulness is already being referred to as
pseudoscience by Ravi. He says it’s just a breathing pattern. And you’re calling me a parrot for repeating things but
everything you’re saying has also been said before. No one really says anything new. Buddha didn’t say anything
new and neither are you or sadhguru. It’s just a way of taking the old things and recycling them producing it in a
di erent manner so that it feels new or is more easy to understand. If mindfulness works for you go do it that’s
what I’m trying to tell you but people like Ravi are out there saying mindfulness is just a breathing pattern and has
nothing to do with how you sit and has no bene ts beyond being a little stress free and even research on that is
unveri ed whereas more research shows exercise does the same thing that mindfulness meditation does so whose
logic is correct yours or his? What I was talking about mindfulness is in a di erent context. Mindfulness is a
wonderful tool but it will not get you to the end of the spiritual goal with spirituality in it’s right essence unless you
don’t have a goal in spirituality. If all you want is a great life with good mental and physical health and want to
change yourself mindfulness is great but if you have a completely di erent goal then mindfulness is not the right
approach. And if you’re really dedicated to mindfulness then why do you want to shatter the beliefs of others
except your own? It wouldn’t make a di erence to you what other think or believe and you’d be able to completely
let it go being non judgemental. But because spirituality is like a part time job for you you don’t even practice
mindfulness fully otherwise it would have produced di erent results. If you really practiced mindfulness you would
see it’s true potential and later on realize that despite it being totally amazing it still holds limitations if you want to
reach the goal. And about uniqueness I don’t have to let my uniqueness out or explore it. it’s already there it just
exists the rest is all self made and self deceptive. Look at nature sometime everything is completely unique yet
nothing tries to be unique. When you already exist as a unique being you don’t need to try to be unique. To explain
it with an example of science you won’t nd anyine with 100% same DNA as me it’s completely unique to me and
me only no matter what you do so it doesn’t matter if I behave the same as someone else or not fundamentally I’m
always unique.
Ravi
June 3, 2017 at 5:31 am
I didn’t read all the content so far, but a few lines caught my eye.
 Actually 82% of studies not being reproducible is a big problem with science right now.
This looks like an accessible writeup and discussion on this matter suitable for non-researchers.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/02/17/90-of-all-claims-about-the-problems-with-medical-studies-are-wrong/
Science is doing ne. It is critiquing itself, which is how it continues to constantly evolve.
Properly trained researchers generally know how to separate the wheat from the cha . We don’t give the same
weight to every “study”. Someone who isn’t, but is simply trying to google up a study to con rm their biases does
not and will usually nd something they would like to see.
We all love Ioannidis. But some context please.
 What you’re calling as mindfulness is already being referred to as pseudoscience by Ravi. He says it’s just a
breathing pattern.
Actually, I attended a mindfulness meditation class while I was at University. It was not taught as a pseudoscience.
There is a right way to do it. The teacher was a researcher doing this for fun at lunch. Our research center has
mindfulness meditation groups to those who are interested. I haven’t gone. During my medical internship, our
professor live-demonstrated the e ect of slower breathing rate on cardiovascular phenomena, while discussing
meditation.
It is one thing to say that meditation has a calming e ect, reduces the pulse rate for a bit or when done for
extended periods, produces altered perceptions (which have psychological side-e ects of their own BTW. Some
report inability to focus in real-world tasks, after investing too much in meditation – it is not some super power that
is always good, as is sold by the gurus) in some people. None of this is making claims that cannot be veri ed.
The pseudoscience issue is when people claim that meditation is a cure for MEDICAL PROBLEMS without properly
controlled studies to back that up. They then claim that it is an alternative to a medical intervention in actual
disorders. Simply prescribing meditation in lieu of medication for patients with anxiety attacks and depression is
irresponsible. There are actual neuro-transmitter issues that underlie these. They aren’t just thoughts that need to
be trained.
I will leave the rest of the discussion to you.
Nye
June 3, 2017 at 6:26 am
I’m not even gonna comment after this. Do whatever you want I’ll live my life the way I want and you live yours the
way you want. The neurotransmitters you’re talking about aren’t even properly understood. Doctors don’t even
know how anti depressants actually work which is why a psychiatrist tries di erent meds on every person with
changing doses and chooses the one that works best kinda like guessing. Also any medicine prescribed by a doctor
has at least 30% placebo e ect. With SSRI’s this is even higher and scientists don’t know how much serotonin do we
actually need or how much is the normal amount so it’s evaluated on behavior and mood changes and then
doctors do best to nd that perfect dose and medicine. There’s a reason why doctors avoid antidepressants as
much as possible because it has a lot of side e ects like a lot and most patients end up going back on it and you
have to go through side e ects of each antidepressants even of the ones that don’t work. That’s why we haven’t
found a good treatment for depression. When a person is diagnosed with depression their neurotransmitters aren’t
looked at or any kind of physical testing isn’t performed. And it takes 6-10 weeks for many antidepressants to work.
It’s ridiculous how much science you claim to know yet have so much misinformation that you can chalk up
understanding depression to just neurotransmitter issues. And there’s proof on this website from your previous
comments that you said mindfulness is just breathing patterns and even the scienti c evidence for that is minimal
and you even said exercise has better chance of working than mindfulness. Anyways do what you want I had my
fun with this thread. Have fun living life according to science.
Ravi
June 3, 2017 at 9:24 pm
I don’t disagree. We were taught, decades ago, BY PSYCHIATRY PROFESSORS, more or less what you are talking
about, in of course less cynical terms. We were taught that the normal highs and lows of life need to be excluded
before making a diagnosis like say Major Depression (we are not talking meds for light stress). We were taught to
not assume that a resolution of a depression episode is necessarily due to medication since the auto-resolution
time frames overlap in some cases and the delayed onset of e ects makes it hard to study the meds or easily
correlate in a clinical setting.
Yes, there is trial and error in reaching a treatment. But there are now emerging techniques to potentially do this
through PET scans.
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2013/07/02/personalizing-depression-treatment-with-brain-scans/
Brain is the most complex and the most delicate organ. The science is challenging. The neuroscientists I know do
great work in advancing the foundations of elds like Psychiatry.
You are an American. I am told in US the eld tends to err on the side of treatment in US and there are arguments
made for that.
Things are very di erent in India. Any label of a mental health problem is a stigma. People are both unaware as well
as avoid seeking help. Many simply su er in silence.
http://nirmukta.com/2016/01/11/unnoticed-and-prejudiced-what-else-do-we-need-to-know-about-mental-illness/
Compliance to treatment is low (I am not a psychiatrist, but I know more who took themselves o meds against
advice than those who keep asking for them) and it is easy to talk a patient out of any med with side e ects and
direct them to pseudoscience.
For anyone with a platform, to talk dismissively about mental health management by mainstream science,
especially without the basic science training on the topic is deeply irresponsible in the context of India. I hope
Jagdish is not doing that. Otherwise it puts him in the same cult space as Scientology.
 you even said exercise has better chance of working than mindfulness
You keep, I think unintentionally (perhaps too much meditation is e ecting your concentration ), twisting what I
say (as with Neil’s).
I said this about exercise: “First, Yoga practiced today has little to do with what your ancestors did. Second, there is
little evidence to show that it is signi cantly better than equivalent exercise methods, in other forms (most studies
are again low quality and don’t even bother with these basic controls). Sure, it beats sitting in Sofa and watching TV
though.”
Mindfulness is di erent from Yoga and regular, almost ritual meditation.
Do whatever you want I’ll live my life the way I want and you live yours the way you want.

I don’t think anyone is preventing you from that.
@Shanmugam
 mindfulness can be practiced when doing anything, like sipping wine, bathing, walking etc
I agree.
 There is strong evidence for positive effects of mindfulness which cannot be replaced by any other relaxing
or resting activities..
You mean this?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002239991500080X
I have not read it, but it says it is “moderately e ective” and more work remains.
Doesnt Matter
July 3, 2017 at 3:53 pm
see… writer !!
criticism can be done by anyone. u did too. That’s great to know that you can think about ‘beyond’… Our whole old
holy books are lled with the same stu what Sadguru Vasudev is saying… It doesn’t matter what he understands
or not… what matters is… that ‘You’ yourself understand or not… Because it is a very personal journey to dissolve in
all…
Here is a free suggestion… rst try to look beyond … without intellect … and you will nd something beyond your
reasoning.
the point is to get it …

but you have to do it before old age comes to you.
All the Best !!
Acharya Birju Maharaj

July 25, 2017 at 9:46 pm
Dear Tatrika,
look at you! Aren’t you doing the same act?
Science does not negate any possibilities. Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev has probably done the same thing that Einstein
or Galalio have done before they commenced their research work on their own ideas! Don’t be so unscienti c! Start
researching to nullify his claims or saying.
S. Chandrakant Reddy
August 6, 2017 at 1:41 pm
Certainly you are being too childish to accept that existence is simply logical. And if you think it is then i have no
say. Anyhow you will get it because life has its own ways of teaching. If you really want to know don’t resort to any
spiritual guru or any scientist for that matter. Pay attention to your body and its environment. Just don’t talk
empirical stu s to show your ignorance. if you have at least a little knowledge about the measuring instruments
that your beloved scientists use you will know that no measurement can be without error. Moreover, you must be
familiar with the uncertainty principle right. Then how would you ever know the reality????. So don’t believe on
anyone’s claim be it a Guru or a scientist. If the question really matters to you. Then have the courage to nd the
answer yourself using the most perfect and trust-able instrument you have right now i.e, your own body and mind.
rather than any arti cial instrument. Okay so Please don’t die in ignorance. All the best.
Ravi
@S. Chandrakant Reddy
 Certainly you are being too childish to accept that existence is simply logical.
A child does not understand logic well, but an educated adult does. Which one do you want to be?
 if you have at least a little knowledge about the measuring instruments that your beloved scientists use you
will know that no measurement can be without error
Don’t know “a little”. Know more. A “little knowledge” is dangerous.
Science exploded once we stopped just empty thinking and started to actually measure things. There is an entire
branch of mathematics that addresses uncertainty and it is used in literally every science.
We have pretty good certainty, when uncertainty is corrected in this way. When you typed that post, trillions of
calculations happened exactly as engineers intended them to, and your post appeared here, and when they did
not, that was immediately detected and corrected as well.
 you must be familiar with the uncertainty principle right

Unless you have read a proper textbook or such (clearly not the case) on the uncertainty principle, it is perhaps
best for you to leave that to people with an actual education on the topic.
 Then have the courage to nd the answer yourself using the most perfect and trust-able instrument you
have right now i.e, your own body and mind.
The mind and the body are often the WORST instruments (given where technology is at now). They have very low
reliability. This is not an opinion. It can easily be shown so.
We use reason and science because our mind is easily biased. We use instruments because the sensory systems in
our body are quite unreliable, beyond the most basic use and quite imprecise for the detail necessary to
understand the world.
jasmine
August 22, 2017 at 1:23 am
This Nirmukhta does not even want to understand that it is being foolish. then no point in even reading this
pseudo-intellectual blog.
Venki
Jaggi’s mission is di erent from that of a Physicist. Many great physicists of 20th century tried to read the indian
and buddhist scriptures to see if they can get ideas on how to solve the physics problems. If you google seriously
you will nd many physicists dabbling in religion to understand physics phenomenon. You can nd fault with them
as well. The consciousness research in Upanishads and Buddhism is used by evolutionary psychologists to
understand the science after 3000 years of its postulation rst in India. Do not try to nd 100% accuracy of physics
theories in what Vasudev explains. He is not teaching a physics class. He is trying to give some idea to a common.
Do not think that physics has solved all the problems. Even Einstein did not agree with the quantum physicists on
many of their theories. If you expect Jaggi to get a Nobel prize for Physics then it is not going to happen. So leave
him alone to do what he does best. Find fault with him the moment he starts misusing his power for personal ends
and not for public good.
Ravi
 Many great physicists of 20th century tried to read the indian and buddhist scriptures to see if they can get
ideas on how to solve the physics problems.
No, that was not what they were doing. They were reading them as a refreshing change from the Abrahamic
scriptures that they were brought up with. They were not trying to nd physics discoveries in them.
Eastern religions were a fresh exposure to many 20th century intellectuals. Abrahamic texts talked about small
things and doctrinal things… that the world was only 6000 years, having di erent views on religious texts was
heresy etc. In contrast, eastern texts tried to IMAGINE humongous everything – the mahakalpa being a prime
example… and the culture rewarded that imagination. People were charmed that the religion was about wonder,
rather than sti ing ideas about the world. But no one was seriously looking for facts and science in it.
 If you google seriously you will nd many physicists dabbling in religion to understand physics
phenomenon.
If Google “seriously”, you will nd all sorts of silly views on just about anything. I know people with Biology PhDs
that are biblical creationists. It just proves that elaborate degrees don’t always clean stupidity, not that the said
stupid ideas have validation.
 The consciousness research in Upanishads and Buddhism is used by evolutionary psychologists to

understand the science after 3000 years of its postulation rst in India.
No it was not. There is no consciousness “research” in old texts. There was some early philosophy, at best. Don’t
confuse this with science and research.
 Do not try to nd 100% accuracy of physics theories in what Vasudev explains.

Of course we don’t. He does not know any Physics. He never studied it formally at all. Since his education was a
bachelors in English Literature, the last physics class he would have taken would be in 10th class. After that, just like
everyone else, he Googled stu and read some mass market books on the topic.
The issue is not just that he does not understand physics; it is that he lacks the humility to understand that he does
not. I expect any one who presents himself to be a wise man to be aware of what he does not know and be humble
about it.
But the kind of these so-called gurus that our society is putting on a pedestal are just full of it and have king size
egos and bluster – The recently convicted Dera baba being the worst caricature of this problem. While these other
gurus may not be as horrible as him, the problem is the same… followers put these people on a pedestal and
stroke their egos. They soon think they are oozing with wisdom and are right about everything.
 He is not teaching a physics class. He is trying to give some idea to a common.
He teaches to an English speaking/reading audience like you. Can’t you read physics books on your own? Do you
need a baba with no physics education explain it to you? This is the problem with us. We make personality cults. We
look for larger than life gures. We make it pro table and we have plenty of pretenders.
Want to know physics? Get it from an accomplished physicist. Even better, take a free online class on Physics.
Want to know the meaning of life? Read proper philosophy books on the topic from academics who spent a life
time examining the ideas that have emerged throughout human history.
Don’t let any ONE person to become a curator of all information for you.
 Do not think that physics has solved all the problems.

Does it need to? Physics is about understanding the physical world. It already is a monumental success. Just
because there is this or that problem that is yet to be addressed because the experiments are di cult to conduct,
does not take anything away from it. Name a SINGLE problem Jaggi has solved. He has ZERO intellectual
contributions. Where is the comparison between a baba/guru who just plays word games to entertain a non-
intellectual audience and an actual mature science that has revolutionized the world?
 Even Einstein did not agree with the quantum physicists on many of their theories.
But he did not disagree with the math.
 If you expect Jaggi to get a Nobel prize for Physics then it is not going to happen.
I don’t even expect Jaggi to pass an 11th grade Physics exam today. What Nobel Prize for Physics?
 So leave him alone to do what he does best.

And he should leave science to those who actually do science and do what he does best – bilking and regaling
gullible followers who have made no attempt to explore abstract thought on their own and are oored by his word
games.
James Cornell
“Did you read the article? The entire point was that he thinks scientists don’t get it (you don’t get it because your
programming has been complete) and you can meditate your way to scienti c knowledge.”
Sadhguru didn’t say that “you can meditate your way to scienti c knowledge”.(at least from what I’ve heard up to
now), (so it seems to me that) you got him wrong.
I agree that he should learn more science if he wants to talk about it. But you should keep in mind that the scienti c
jargon he uses is just a fun, a words play – if you consider that to be some kind of blasphemy then your reaction is
natural. He hurt your ‘scienti c feelings’, you kinda want to punish him because he is being playful and making fun
of the ‘Sacred Science’. Making fun of the fanatics of science actually, not of the science itself, cuz he is all for
science from what I’ve observed up to now. He is letting the scientists do their work, and he is doing his work. I
don’t care whether he’s a fraud or not – it’s his business. But if you want to refute him you will have to become a
realized yogi. Otherwise you can’t refute him or yoga.
I’m not realized either, but scienti c fanatics can be refuted easily, there’s no need to become a yogi for that.
James Cornell
By the way , what are the Nobel committee guys waiting for?
“When we do an experiment like that, we get a very strong result. Keep in mind that a 5 sigma was able to give
CERN the Nobel Prize for nding the Higgs particle which turned out not to be Higgs after all. We’ve got a 5 sigma
result too but I haven’t heard from the Nobel Prize commitee yet.” (Dean Radin)
Perhaps the most interesting nding was that certain individuals proved to be signi cantly more successful at
in uencing the photons’ behaviour. The unique factor in these individuals was that almost all of them were highly
experienced in either meditation or some kind of attentional training.
Since Radin presented these ndings at the Science of Consciousness conference they have since gained quite a bit
of attention. They seem to suggest that mind is continuous with the world in a way that poses a serious challenge
to the assumption that mind/consciousness is insigni cant to the structure of reality.
The only problem was that the e ect had not yet been replicated by independent scientists. That was, until now.
In recently published experiments, conducted by the physicist Gabriel Guerrer Ph.D. at the University of São Paulo,
the apparent mind over matter e ect has been observed once again, and with similarly high statistical signi cance.
Just as observed previously by Radin and his colleagues, Guerrer found that participants are able reduce the wave
distribution of photons in a double-slit system, simply by directing their attention towards it.
According to Guerrer this e ect points to “a not yet mapped form of interaction between a conscious agent and a
physical system”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY
Ravi
@James Cornell
 Sadhguru didn’t say that “you can meditate your way to scienti c knowledge”.
He thinks you can understand the nature of reality if you just meditate. He thinks mysticism is a valid epistemic
approach like the scienti c method. He has argued repeatedly to that e ect.
Mystics in the entire history have produced absolutely no veri able understanding of reality. They just keep coming
up with arbitrary metaphysics (mere conjectures), over and over, that you are expected to take on faith. That
should be enough proof to anyone who spent one minute thinking critically (a better meditation, I would say).
 But you should keep in mind that the scienti c jargon he uses is just a fun, a words play
OK. You agree then. His guru talk is just word play. It is word-play meant to fool lightly-educated middle-class
professionals (who always vastly over-estimate their grasp of science) who have just enough money, to be
mesmerized for pro t.
This is the case with all these New Age gurus like Deepak Chopra – empty.word.play.
 if you consider that to be some kind of blasphemy then your reaction is natural.
I consider the fact that we as a society put these faux “gurus” on a pedestal to be o ensive. It is o ensive to the
intellect we are required to possess in the 21st century.
Our Sat(true)-gurus are those who taught us real things. They were our un-glamarous school teachers and college
professors. Jaggi and others are bling-gurus who run multi-million dollar enterprises.
 I don’t care whether he’s a fraud or not – it’s his business

You may not care. I do… and you should too.
 But if you want to refute him you will have to become a realized yogi. Otherwise you can’t refute him or yoga.
That’s horse-manure. There is no such thing as a “realized yogi”. It is just a lie. He is a “realized yogi” to you, if you
are gullible enough to believe that. I will keep pointing to our recent Dera baba because he is such a ne example.
Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh Insan is an enlightened man only if you are going to be a chump about accepting him as
one – and he says he has 50,000,000 people who do. Same thing with Jaggi.
 (Dean Radin)
Dean Radin is a well-known quack and woo-meister.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dean_Radin
He belongs in the same bucket as Jaggi and Deepak Chopra. For completely illiterate people in India, we have Dera
Babas. For slightly read, but still gullible people here and elsewhere, we have phoneys like Jaggi Vasudev and
Deepak Chopra.
The entire so-called eld of “para-psychology” is quackery.
Institute of Noetic Sciences is a well-known pseudo-science group. The so-called “Noetic science” is not a science at
all. It is just quackery peddled to people like you who get bowled over when a few science-sounding terms are
thrown in.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Noetic_science
Nobody cares about their quackery “conferences”. They just talk nonsense and pat each other on their back. Of
course you are gullible enough to think these are legit sciences. Science-illiterate and gullible people like you are
pretty much the bread and butter of these New Age frauds.
If India is to prosper in the 21st century, we need to understand science. We need to nd our enlightenment on our
own, not from the cud of these faux-gurus, but from our real gurus. There is enlightenment and spirituality to be
had in plain science, but not in mystical woo.
James Cornell
First I want to tell you that it’s okay to attack all gurus, actually I also do it all the time. Most of them ARE fake. And
it’s always good to have information from BOTH sides, no matter what guru or scienti c discovery we are talking
about.
‘I don’t care whether he’s a fraud or not – it’s his business. You may not care. I do… and you should too.’ <- actually I
care, what I really meant is that if he really is a fraud (which he may be), it’s okay to reveal him out, but I will still
respect people decisions who consciously choose to listen to him and learn from him. If the real thing is not
available , then a fraud is better(or worse??) than nothing. The thing is, people have a need so their need some way
or another has to be ful lled. Where there’s demand, there will be a supply. Until we manage to have the real thing,
fakes will prosper. You think that the real thing is already available – the so called mainstream science, but I
honestly tell you that you should inspect the situation more carefully. It’s not the real thing yet. It has a wonderful
potential but I can see how this potential is being misused by frauds who hide behind the mask of science to
promote materialistic belief systems. Not only at individual level, but at institutional level, just like mainstream
religions.
All belief systems are bad, not just the spiritualistic ones. Believing in science is the same crap.
“He thinks you can understand the nature of reality if you just meditate.”
If you understand the nature of reality it does not mean that you will know all the physics. You’re misunderstanding
the statement.
“Dean Radin is a well-known quack and woo-meister.”

So that’s what you mean by science? Having faith in the church of scientism and dismissing everyone else as
heretics? I pointed you to an EXPERIMENT, and your reaction is to talk about a person, to dismiss him as a ‘quack’. If
you are really for science then discuss the experiment, nd its aws and improve upon it. You haven’t found any
aws (most probably you haven’t even read the papers or listened to the conference that describes this experiment
which took so many years)
Also, the rationalwiki links you provided provide no proofs for the ‘woo’ claims. Rationalwiki seems to be more of a
‘believe me!!!!!’ thing , it’s neither scienti c nor academic. It’s strange that you quote from such sources… And on
what grounds you call this academician a ‘quack’ ? Just because you believe so strongly in these so called rational
sites (which again, they only succeed in debuking illusionists and street magicians ‘like people who sell fake
miracles, and that’s how they somehow manage to create the image that they are somehow in support of science.
They are not. For example on both rationalwiki and wikipedia hypnosis falls into the category of Pseudoscience .
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hypnosis <- look at the bottom “Categories: Psychology Alternative medicine
Pseudoscience Scams” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience <- hypnosis is
listed there as ‘pseudoscience’. What they promote is not science at all, it’s just a bunch of materialistic beliefs, it’s a
belief system and nothing more. No doubt that this whole propaganda succeeds because REAL SCIENCE which is
about experiments and results and veri cation has brought amazing results and bene ts to humanity, and they are
using the facade of science to promote these blind beliefs ‘there is no spirituality’, ‘there is no mysticism’, ‘there is
no hypnosis’, ‘meditation is crap’, ‘there is no third-eye’, ‘there is no prana energy’, and so on. People easily take
these blind materialistic beliefs as science, just like people easily take believing in meditation,yoga, as spirituality.
No belief can be scienti c or spiritual, only experiment and experience can be.
Hypnosis is such a hot research topic and it’s shown amazing results, it’s hilarious that these so called skeptics from
rationalwiki and wikipedia have the guts to claim that they are in the service of science.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3324744/
“Hypnosis is e ective in various acute medical settings. In a randomized controlled trial, which observed the
anesthetic e ects of hypnosis during interventional radiology, the control group experienced intensifying pain as
the procedural time became longer, but the hypnosis treatment group, who had learned self-hypnosis, had
reduced pain and the amount of analgesia used through the patient-controlled analgesia pump, also decreased.
Not only this, but the hypnosis treatment group had lower hemodynamic instability after the procedure, and the
procedural time was also reduced 22% when compared to the control group [20,21]. As a result, $338 in medical
fees had been reduced per procedure, even when the costs for educating and instructing patients in self-hypnosis
was taken into account [22]. Montgomery et al. were the rst to conduct a meta-analysis of 18 research laboratory
and clinical studies, and reported a e ect size 0.71 of hypnosis in the analgesic e ect [23]. Hypnosis not only has
analgesic e ects in acute pain, but it also serves to relieve chronic pain such as bromyalgia, cancer pains, and
headaches [24].” )
“Mystics in the entire history have produced absolutely no veri able understanding of reality. ”
You’re wrong, my man… Mystics don’t o er descriptions of reality in the form of a theory or theology or story. They
use these only as a means to make the disciple’s mind relax, then the real thing – that is meditation – begins. They
only o er techniques, and you have to experiment, you don’t have to believe anything. People prefer to believe
instead, so most of them fall into the traps of the fake mystics , religions, etc. Many people can be with a real guru
(a mystic) and still realize nothing, because they just believe, they never experiment. So yeah they will form a
religion, although the mystic didn’t intend that. People can form a religion around anything – around science also,
around political ideologies, around vegetarianism, around nationalism, around any stupid belief and around any
true fact also… They will transform EVEN the real thing into a fake one, it’s hard to avoid this phenomena. So
naturally there are also many fakes around, fakes in the name of spirituality, in the name of science, in the name of
nutrition, in the name of sport, in the name of anything. Just because in the world there are many fakes it doesn’t
mean there is no real science, or no real spirituality, or no real sportsman or no real genius.
‘There is no such thing as a “realized yogi”. It is just a lie.’

This is just your belief. Believe it, if you want, I don’t mind. No need for you to search, just believe, it’s easier.
‘He is a “realized yogi” to you, if you are gullible enough to believe that. ‘
What I meant is even if he’s a fraud, you can’t easily dismiss him as far as the spirituality is concerned. You know
nothing of Yoga. I am not saying is a realized yogi , nor I am saying he is not.
If you just believe there is no such thing as yogic realization, ne – then you won’t even try to refute his yogic
realization, so no chance to succeed in this refutation. Refuting his yogic realization is done by you yourself
becoming a realized being, that’s the only way to know whether he is true or not.
All you can refute are his so called scienti c assertions. But be careful, in case he is a true yogi, he might also make
true assertions which are ahead of our time, about things which science has yet to discover them.
About his yoga, though, you can’t refute much. Fraud or not, he knows more yoga than you, that’s all I said.
R S Chakravarti
@James Cornell: I completely agree with your last comment. When a “scientist” becomes rigid and dogmatic, he/she
is no longer a scientist. I would call it the Scienti c Trap.
Ravi
@James Cornell
 First I want to tell you that it’s okay to attack all gurus, actually I also do it all the time. Most of them ARE
fake.
For gurus that claim to have mystical abilities, ALL of them are fake, not most.
There are no actual, real mystics. You just need ONE to prove that there are. There are a bazillion claimants, many
with their own mini-personality cults. Not a single one can objectively show any mystical abilities when subjected to
critical examination. Their power entirely lies in gullibility of people like you.
 And it’s always good to have information from BOTH sides, no matter what guru or scienti c discovery we
are talking about.
There are no BOTH sides to science. There is demonstrable Truth and there is an error. The gurus are ENTIRELY in
error. Note that by saying ENTIRELY I am making it really easy for you to refute me. You just need to show one
veri able instance of mysticism that everyone can agree. But you can’t.
Saying that there are 2 sides here is no di erent than saying there are 2 sides to voodoo or rain dancing. Some
things are just non-factual.
 but I will still respect people decisions who consciously choose to listen to him and learn from him.
Right, you will still “respect” the gullibility of the people who follow Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh Insan. I, on the other
hand, happen to think we have a social responsibility to at least try to make those who have been hoodwinked, be
aware that they have been hood winked – however impossible a task it may be. At least a few will get it.
 If the real thing is not available , then a fraud is better(or worse??) than nothing.
Huh? Fraud is fraud.
 The thing is, people have a need so their need some way or another has to be ful lled. Where there’s demand,
there will be a supply.
I actually agree here. I said as much earlier. People face the question of mortality. No one wants to accept that they
will really die. There is a big market for charlatans who will convince us that we don’t actually die and will just move
on in some sense. This lie historically came from religion. Now old religion does not t the sensibilities of some of
us. So we need a new kind of charismatic liars who will tell us we won’t die. That is the market here – not to produce
some superior understanding, but to satisfy a yearning to make peace with death, usually with a lie, than real
acceptance of the fact of reality.
 Until we manage to have the real thing, fakes will prosper. You think that the real thing is already available
– the so called mainstream science
The actual market is the existential crisis (or death crisis). The genuine commodity here is philosophy. But
philosophy is not accessible to everyone. It tends to bring up as many questions as answers. So they settle for
mysticism.
Rather than genuinely struggle to nd their own meaning for life, it is much easier to suspend thought and blankly
let a “guru” or a god-man claim to have done the thinking for you.
Yes, mainstream science can be a source of wonder and contemplation.
 I can see how this potential is being misused by frauds who hide behind the mask of science to promote
materialistic belief systems.
Switch materialistic to mystical and you have Dean Radin and Chopra.
I am not promoting a “materialistic belief system”. I am just asking for replicability of your so-called experiments
and claims.
 All belief systems are bad, not just the spiritualistic ones. Believing in science is the same crap.
Science never asks you to just believe it. If we weren’t producing results consistently, we would not be doing it,
producing is something New Agers never did. All we got was rhetoric.
 If you understand the nature of reality it does not mean that you will know all the physics. You’re
misunderstanding the statement.
Jaggi is simply playing word-games with the term “reality”. What he is talking about is a subjective feeling, a
perspective at most, not reality. I know that.
 So that’s what you mean by science? Having faith in the church of scientism and dismissing everyone else
as heretics?
Everytime New Agers are asked for science standards, they resort to this “church of scientism” argument. It is really
tiresome. I am just asking you for objective, replicable evidence, as everyone should.
 I pointed you to an EXPERIMENT, and your reaction is to talk about a person, to dismiss him as a ‘quack’.
And I pointed you to articles with links to articles on how their “ EXPERIMENTs” are absurd. There is plenty already
written about Radin and IoNC. They have been doing this junk research for decades. IoNC is not a source I (or
scientists in general) have any trust in.
They cherry-pick anecdotes and ignore all evidence that points otherwise.
Here, I am just pasting from Wikipedia:
Chris French criticized Radin for his selective historical overview of parapsychology and ignoring evidence of fraud.
French recounts that the medium Florence Cook was caught in acts of trickery and two of the Fox sisters confessed
to fraud, but that Radin did not mention this fact. Radin has claimed the results from psi research are as consistent
by the same standards as any other scienti c discipline but Ray Hyman has written many parapsychologists
disagree with that opinion and openly admit the evidence for psi is “inconsistent, irreproducible, and fails to meet
acceptable scienti c standards”.
Why does Dean Radin ignore evidence to the contrary? Because he is a woo-meister. He has no interest in actually
pursuing this stu with integrity. He just wants to convince you and sell books. He will just do activities that look like
“experiments”, elaborate enough to look like science, just to give an illusion of a sophisticated e ort.
Here are a couple (which you no doubt have already read since you seem to be his fan):
https://www.csicop.org/si/show/when_big_evidence_isnt_the_statistical_pitfalls_of_dean_radins_supernormal
http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/radin1.html
You don’t need to convince me personally – convince the scienti c community at large. All physics and
neuroscience research departments will run to noetic guys, if they are convinced they are doing anything but
playing games and are on to something. They will be talking about this at every major physics conference. They will
all be writing for grants to explore consciousness and quantum mechanics. Why do you think they don’t? Is it
because only you New Agers (mostly people without any science education, except perhaps the few top scammers)
get it? All the physics professors in the world are blind and closed-minded to your wonderful experiments? Only
people like you have the open-mindedness and wisdom to get this? Or do you think it is possible because you don’t
get the ABC of science and they do? Could it be that you and your people live in your own la-la land producing
nothing, and not the actual scienti c community, which has produced plenty? Could it be that Radin and Chopra
who have no advanced physics training at all simply don’t grok Quantum Mechanics? Could it be that Chopra who
charges exorbitant sums as speaking fees is simply in it for the money?
 If you are really for science then discuss the experiment, nd its aws and improve upon it.
This whole mess got started when people misunderstood the double slit experiment and the uselessly dumbed
down “interpretations” of quantum mechanics.
They misunderstood what the observer e ect really meant. This started an entire cottage industry of quantum
mysticism. The faux-science being promoted is really old-school magic – make strong wishes and the world will
bend to you is the mantra. All mainstream physicists tell these quacks the aws in their reasoning. But there is too
much money to be made here that they don’t care.
No, Guerrer did not get anyone to alter particle behavior in the double slit experiment. He just claims he does. And
he can claim till cows come home. He can bring his best psychic and they will just turn out to be Uri Gellers.
 You haven’t found any aws (most probably you haven’t even read the papers or listened to the conference
that describes this experiment which took so many years)
I have known about this New-Age junk science for a long time. I really don’t care about yet another one. I will pay
attention when your guys actually manage to get mainstream physicists interested, not just their little kitty parties.
They are just generally looking for spurious statistical correlations using hyper-sensitive equipment. They simply
cannot replicate them. Homeopaths also engage in this nonsense to pretend they are scienti c. There is nothing
here. You can only cry wolf for so long.
 Also, the rationalwiki links you provided provide no proofs for the ‘woo’ claims. Rationalwiki seems to be
more of a ‘believe me!!!!!’ thing , it’s neither scienti c nor academic.
The so-called “experiments” you are talking about are also not academic. Sure, you have an oddball on tenure here
and there that tries to lend credence to these, but academia in general does not even cast a glance on them
anymore. You think you will get academic rebuttals for these? The ippant dismissal you see in the RationalWiki is
all the response these are eligible for. They earned this status by their repeated untrustworthiness by not
maintaining the requisite critical standards.
I am also pointing you to Rational Wiki to show you these aren’t my personal opinions. They are the opinions of
rationalists worldwide in general. The wiki articles are short. They are more of: yes, we know about this nonsense
already. They do link to more detailed critiques.
You want an Academic Particle Physicist Professor refuting it? Try this:
https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Gods-Creation-Search-Consciousness/dp/1591027136/
It’s strange that you quote from such sources… And on what grounds you call this academician a ‘quack’ ?

Dean Radin might have been a faculty member at some point. But he does quackery now, just as Deepak Chopra
has medical training, but what he promotes now is mysticism and quackery, not EBM.
 Just because you believe so strongly in these so called rational sites (which again, they only succeed in
debuking illusionists and street magicians ‘like people who sell fake miracles
I did not come into this reading rationalist sites. I have formal science training. Do you have any? This is simple,
straight-forward scienti c thought – apply critical standards, ask for evidence and replicability. It is not science
without these.
Rationalist groups are simply the public facing articulations of scienti c critical thinking. They are not taking any
non-scienti c position. Your New Age beliefs are illusions and are simply a more sophisticated version of street
magic. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Tell me ONE experiment, your noetic guys have executed rst that regular
physicists have also executed and con rmed, published in any major physics journal and now is considered part of
the physics mainstream. It need not even be a consciousness project, just any novel physics phenomenon will do.
 and that’s how they somehow manage to create the image that they are somehow in support of science.They
are not. For example on both rationalwiki and wikipedia hypnosis falls into the category of Pseudoscience .
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hypnosis <- look at the bottom “Categories: Psychology Alternative medicine
Pseudoscience Scams”
That’s your proof? – That its pseudoscience list contains one thing you think isn’t pseudoscience?
The RationalWiki simply notes the multitude of pseudoscience that falls under hypnosis. There has been plenty of
evidence of false memories and such being claimed under hypnosis.
For instance:
People have claimed that hypnosis can get you past-life regressions – that is pseudoscience.
People have claimed that hypnosis can reveal “UFO abductions” (another bunk a air). Later inquiries found that the
details were injected in. That is pseudoscience.
It does not say, hypnosis itself is quackery. See the sentence: “Hypnosis is a natural state experienced at times by
nearly all human beings. For example, people often lapse into hypnosis while driving”.
We even have sedative-hypnotic drugs. They work great. No one is saying hypnosis, as a psychological
phenomenon itself is pseudoscience, although people have questioned the extent of the e ect that can properly be
attributed to hypnosis. The stage hypnosis has been reasonably questioned in this regard.
promote these blind beliefs ‘there is no spirituality’, ‘there is no mysticism’, ‘there is no hypnosis’,

‘meditation is crap’, ‘there is no third-eye’, ‘there is no prana energy’, and so on.
So go ahead and prove it with evidence. Without using faith based arguments, prove that there is a third-eye (no,
not the pineal gland), prana, mysticism, spiritual worlds, telekinesis etc. Don’t tell me I have to believe rst. That is
not proving at all.
In critical thinking, if you claim that something exists, it is your job to claim it exists, not the critics’. It is the basic
philosophical burden of proof.
 Hypnosis is such a hot research topic and it’s shown amazing results, it’s hilarious that these so called
skeptics from rationalwiki and wikipedia have the guts to claim that they are in the service of science.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3324744/
This is just a u piece from some random journal of little consequence. There is no science presented here. There
are a lot better articles than this. Please don’t type some search terms and shove random articles at me. I am in
medical research. This is a very unimpressive article.
No, it is not a “hot” research topic and it has not shown “amazing” results. Evidence in medicine works di erently
from physics. It takes a lot more replicability than physics to establish anything. We don’t jump easily for joy unless
they are very large e orts. The statistical issues here are quite di erent and we need to account for a lot more bias
in human subjects and even more so when subjective phenomena are involved.
 You’re wrong, my man… Mystics don’t offer descriptions of reality in the form of a theory or theology or story.
You haven’t been paying attention. Mystics o er loads of theories, theologies, metaphysics and stories, as does
Jaggi.
 They use these only as a means to make the disciple’s mind relax, then the real thing – that is meditation –
begins.
They o er simple-minded explanations to their followers that are meant to shut down critical thought. Then they
start further thought-stopping exercises, like meditation. This leads to altered psychological states. Often, the
clients have not experienced them before and are blown away. They then tell them: see – I am revealing some
greater reality to you.
Except it is not. It is just a mental state. You can get that through scienti c means in multiple ways. It is not
revealing any additional truth about reality. Learn what a religious/spiritual experience is. It is plain neuroscience,
not mystical.
 They only offer techniques, and you have to experiment, you don’t have to believe anything.
Yes, they o er techniques to reach alternative psychological states, but they mislead you, often out of ignorance
themselves, but sometimes knowingly, as to interpreting what those states mean.
 This is just your belief. Believe it, if you want, I don’t mind. No need for you to search, just believe, it’s easier.
That’s not a belief. It is the logical position based on a lack of evidence. It is your job to present evidence, not the
kind of non-replicated faux-experiments as you have done, but well replicated and recognized experiments.
What I meant is even if he’s a fraud, you can’t easily dismiss him as far as the spirituality is concerned.

I can. I can even dismiss his spirituality on entirely factual, logical and empirical grounds alone, without a
single opinion on whether he committed any kind of fraud.
You know nothing of Yoga.

First, which classic texts on Yoga did you read?
 I am not saying is a realized yogi , nor I am saying he is not.

If you just believe there is no such thing as yogic realization, ne – then you won’t even try to refute his
yogic realization, so no chance to succeed in this refutation.
But I am. I am saying he (or any other mystic) has not submitted any evidence of his “yogic realization”. That is my
refutation.
Forget Jaggi for a bit and I will pretend this “yogic realization” exists for a bit. I will give you 2 gurus, one who
achieved “yogic realization” and one who did not. How will you determine which one has it and which one does not?
What will be your methods? How will you assess and quantify the accuracy of our methods?
 Refuting his yogic realization is done by you yourself becoming a realized being, that’s the only way to know
whether he is true or not.
No, that is not how it is done.
I don’t need to become a rain dancer to tell you that the idea that dancing in any way brings about rain is utterly
and fundamentally awed.
I can absolutely state via science whether rain dancing does what it says, without doing any rain dancing myself.
In India, we believe that performing certain re rituals (homas) brings about rain, BTW. All these “fully-realized”
yogis we have had over the centuries were super-cool with that idea of course. Great proof of their “fully-realized”
wisdom. No sir, they weren’t just a superstitious lot.
 All you can refute are his so called scienti c assertions. But be careful, in case he is a true yogi, he might
also make true assertions which are ahead of our time, about things which science has yet to discover them.
Same tired argument from New Agers. We are too cool for science, we are too advanced for science. Science is so-
sti ing, it does not allow us to say whatever we feel. It has all these inconvenient standards and rigor etc. etc.
You can endlessly wait in a “second coming” sort of exercise for him to be proved right.
The rst thing about science you should know, is not to make non-falsi able claims like this.
About his yoga, though, you can’t refute much. Fraud or not, he knows more yoga than you, that’s all I said.

Yes, a rain-dancer will always know more about rain-dancing than I do, especially if he gets to de ne it, but even
otherwise, when it is culturally de ned. But I have the basic level of scienti c literacy to refute it.
Ravi
@James Cornell
My earlier reply did not make it past the spam lter. I will try a shorter version.
Who is an academic? Why do we value him/her?

A proper academic tries to entirely talk from data, not his/her agenda. She has extensive training in her discipline.
She takes time to review all the evidence and literature available, including those that do not agree with her own
positions. When an experiment is conducted, great care is taken to adjust for biases. When they are not fully
adjusted, she attempts to fully disclose the limitations before anyone else needs to point it out. She discusses the
limits of certainty with which her claim may be accepted. She goes to her the peers, who are intellectually equipped
to critique her work. Whenever an anomalous nding is available, the results are hotly and critically debated. After
all the dust settles, then the public is presented with the conclusions in a popular press work or text books.
Is Dean Radin an academic?

He certainly does not act like one. He has no training in quantum mechanics. He was found to have cherry-picked
narratives. He makes bombastic claims. His experimental designs are silly and do not convince the scienti c
community. He ignores physics experts who explain to him that his very core premises are fatally awed –
Observer e ect has nothing to do with consciousness, but simply with the fact that the particles are so damn small
such that the very act of shining photons on them, disturbs them. He formed a non-critical bubble with IONS where
he may make claims without a critical review. He short-circuits the academic process and directly goes to the public
which has no capacity to critique.
Why don’t I show academic critique of his “experiment”?

Because this nonsense is not considered science at all. Until he comes to an actual scienti c forum and faces the
critical review, there is nothing to criticize. Radin says he deserves a Nobel. He is nowhere at the level of Ig Nobel
awards, what Nobel is he talking about? I’d put more stock in a paper that wins state-level science fare award in US,
than a paper that Radin writes. How did he get here? He got here by writing unsubstantiated bakwas after bakwas
(in case you are not familiar with the term, it translates to BS). His fellow, Deepak Chopra is a such a legendary
bakwasi that there are websites like this
wisdomofchopra dot com
This years Ig Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to “On the Reception and Detection of Pseudo-Profound Bullshit” (a
bit about Chopra). A ippant e ort it may be, but it has more science in it than New Ager “experiments”. Being
featured in Wikipedia and RationalWiki are about the most these quacks can accomplish.
Radin and Chopra are fellow bakwasis. They are not doing this to advance science. In fact, they do not care about
that in the slightest. These “experiments” exist solely to confuse people with no scienti c training to think there is
something profound to the bakwas they peddle VERY PROFITABLY. This is about book sales, speaking fees, resort
packages etc. This is what the New Age mystical machine produces. It has not, will not and has no desire to, actually
produce any better understanding of anything.
I said Jaggi would not pass 11th class physics test. Chopra and Radin will unk a formal university quantum
mechanics class (I am not talking QM for dummies classes). If they had any actual interest, they would have rst
gone back to school, obtained the necessary pre-requisites i.e. know enough math of quantum mechanics such
that they can discuss a standard paper on QM and then argue what the implications are. Instead, they just og the
almost useless “interpretations” of quantum mechanics to basically talk magic.
We had a mystic in India, by the name of Swami Vivekananda. He was a genuine mystic. He had no ego, he did not
try to market himself, he lived simply and always tried to learn from science. I don’t care for mystical metaphysics
and Swami Vivekananda had his own. But I respect his e orts as an honest e ort of a genuine mystic. I haven’t
seen a genuine one after him.
Jaggi, Radin and Chopra, on the other hand are pompous charlatans who are in it for the money. The minute they
are pointed to that they are factually incorrect, they will claim that they are beyond science and that science is
arrogant, Scientism etc. You claimed that Jaggi is ahead of science (“in case he is a true yogi, he might also make
true assertions which are ahead of our time, about things which science has yet to discover them”). OK then, so
wait all those years. Why whine for a Nobel now? Radin can either go through the rigors of a scienti c examination
or can stay a legend in his own mind (and in the minds of people like you).
Hypnosis is a real phenomenon. Neither Wikipedia nor the more ippant and critical RationalWiki are denying that.
They are simply noting the multitude of pseudoscience that does happen in the name of hypnosis. And no,
hypnosis for pain management is not a “hot” topic. Neither the paper you cited nor the journal it was in are
in uential. It is an opinion article.
 If you are really for science then discuss the experiment, nd its aws and improve upon it.
Well, do what academics do. Act like academics. Get training. Be competent in the complex math necessary here,
since QM is all about math, not rhetoric. And if you cry wolf too many times, you made your bed, now sleep in it.
“Experiments” like this are quite common in pseudo-sciences. Homeopaths do a lot of these spurious correlation
studies, for the same reasons. It does not have any weight until several other people can replicate it. Radin claims
that “certain individuals proved to be signi cantly more successful at in uencing the photons’ behaviour”. OK. Now
trot out just your “proven” super-psychics and let someone else who does not buy your BS, test the photon
behavior. We’ll see if your Jedi tricks are facts or ction. If it replicates everywhere, it is science. If does not, it is bunk
and is simply spurious correlation, which has been the case every.single.time with things like these. Just doing a
presentation at IONS is like bragging about doing an open-mic at Woodstock.
James Cornell
@Ravi
“Because this nonsense is not considered science at all. Until he comes to an actual scienti c forum and faces the
critical review, there is nothing to criticize.”
You seem to be talking about Dean Radin just from your own imagination So you’re not really saying anything
about him, you are just showing your own inability to act and respond in a scienti c manner. He published scienti c
papers about the experiment and they are facing critical review. The experiment has already been replicated by an
independent researcher, so what nonsense are you talking there?
How do you know that Dean Radin hasn’t studied quantum mechanics? You think that just throwing around
random accusations is a way to AVOID the ACTUAL EXPERIMENT AND THE RESULTS IT GAVE?
And he’s published dozens and hundreds of experiments with dozens and hundreds of replications – but this last
experiment is one of the most complex of them all, and novel in many aspects.
“Be competent in the complex math necessary here, since QM is all about math, not rhetoric” Are you even
suggesting that Dean Radin is not competent in maths ? Are you talking about the real person called Dean Radin or
about the one in your own imagination?
He’s published the scienti c report with all the maths and everything – but how could you know that, you don’t
even bother to look at the research , your own prejudices are the supreme “Science” it seems. :))
His experiments, his maths and the replications of independent researchers is just ‘rethoric’ for you , and your false
assertions about him are the real deal, really scienti c! Please enlighten us more, teach us more about the science
It’s a pleasure to read
And you don’t seem to understand the di erence between QM and the kind of experiment we’re discussing about. I
did not tell you about some QM paper at all. You’re just changing the subject hoping that your rethorics will sound
like an argument . It is not. Bullshitting absurd things like ‘he is not a QM guy’ (how do you know this? He’s an
engineer and he’s studied QM among other things, on what grounds do you say such things? )
You are just avoiding the topic – that is the experiment that’s been REPLICATED by independent researchers!
Ravi
 He published scienti c papers about the experiment and they are facing critical review. The experiment has
already been replicated by an independent researcher, so what nonsense are you talking there?
Cool man. These are totally skeptical, experienced scientists who have not dabbled in New Age stu previously,
right? Now Radin will totally get a Nobel prize in physics. We will revise both physics and biology books and after
that, I will eat crow. Sounds good?
My small mind is having trouble seeing that his super-duper game changing paper has only 2 citations in Google
Scholar, one of which is your Brazilian boy and the other is about monks transferring their powers to water by
meditating on it to make it grow seeds faster – yeah, sounds legit. Not magical at all. Highly signi cant results (p <
10–13), even better than Radin. Let’s queue these guys for a Nobel too. No spurious correlations here, no siree.
Shiah, Yung-Jong, et al. “A Randomized Trial E ect of the Intentionally Treated Water on Growth of Arabidopsis
thaliana Seeds with Cryptochrome Mutations.”. The Journal of Science and Healing (2017).
“These outcomes conformed to the monks’ intentions because a decrease in hypocotyl length and increase in
anthocyanin and chlorophyll are associated with enhanced photomorphogenic growth. These experiments suggest
that the His-CRY2 mutation of Arabidopsis may be an especially robust “detector” of intention.”
The Journal of Science and Healing – a known woo journal.
skepticaleducator org /science-education/peer-review-a-new-signature-of-quack-science/
 How do you know that Dean Radin hasn’t studied quantum mechanics?
Because he does not put that anywhere in his pro le. Why are you asking me to prove a negative anyway? That’s
like Logic 101. The only physics education he received seems to be the physics he studied to become an engineer.
Who regards engineers as QM physicists? After that, he got a psychology degree.
You think that just throwing around random accusations is a way to AVOID the ACTUAL EXPERIMENT AND

THE RESULTS IT GAVE?
Not my accusations. I am relaying to you the criticisms that people have provided everywhere.
Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud – Robert L. Park (physicist)
“No proof of psychic phenomena is ever found. In spite of all the tests devised by parapsychologists like Jahn and
Radin, and huge amounts of data collected over a period of many years, the results are no more convincing today
than when they began their experiments.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voodoo_Science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Park
He puts Radin under:

pseudoscience proper: work falsely claiming to have a scienti c basis, which may be dependent on supernatural
explanations.
Some more
Committee for Skeptical Inquiry
www csicop org/si/show/when_big_evidence_isnt_the_statistical_pitfalls_of_dean_radins_supernormal
The Skeptic’s Dictionary

www skepdic com /refuge/entangledreview.html
www skepdic com /refuge/radin1.html
At this point, you will say: But all that was in the past. NOW we have replications.
Sure, as soon as the mainstream quantum physicists accept his claims and the quality of evidence about collapsing
a “quantum wave function” and put out a position paper through any respectable mainstream physics organization,
I will also accept them. OK? Sounds reasonable? Other than that this is Uri Geller’s spoon bending and Russell Targ’s
remote viewing.
This is not at all about pushing “distance healing services”, right?
noetic org /research/projects/compassionate-intention-prayer-and-distant-healing/faq
This is some intense scienti c advice from IONS [sarcasm, in case you have been missing it] – where Radin
presented his stu . Remote control mind-magic medicine. All proven of course, lots of studies, here are references,
materialistic science fools like me just don’t get it.
You have your Jaggi test BTW. No need to wait to know. If he is a super-duper fully-realized yogi that you think he
might be, he should pretty much be able to light up the Buddha toy and make it play to any tune he wants.
Otherwise, he is pretty ordinary. Right?
Shanmugam
This article of yours is getting famous in Quora. There was a question which was raised: “The way Sadhguru was
exposed by Nirmukta community is that genuine? As there is an article that critically defames Sadhguru on
Nirmukta website and the link is given below.”
I answered that question and I have tried my best to explain to people to not to blindly follow an authority, repeat
what he says and defend him blindly against criticism.
You can read it here: https://www.quora.com/The-way-Sadhguru-was-exposed-by-Nirmukta-community-is-that-
genuine-As-there-is-an-article-that-critically-defames-Sadhguru-on-Nirmukta-website-and-the-link-is-given-
below/answer/Shanmugam-P-12?srid=hJCJi
Sherry
Very well written I was searching for words to explain the cow dung spread by this abhorrent argument against
science. Your article provides that. Such type of Swamis and their followers have to be studied anthropologically to
understand their socio economic base their appeal and the type of social elements they seek to engender… talking
about stress management this baba tells that there is di erent dimension than senses to understand the
universe… He tells logic can not reach that understanding and then he claims he has all this bogus methods to
achieve that understanding if he and his followers have achieved that understanding they should stop talking
because language is logical construct they should not be using it to communicate something which is beyond
logic… The type of empty stance taken by jaggi and his followers can result in individuals who will never understand
science because they will be under impression that they and their guru know everything or there is no need to
know anything because they are beyond knowing…
Ankush Chauhan
Hahaha….. A mystic is beyond the reach of Tarkika… Hahahaha…
PS; i just hope u approve my comment. I dare you.. Hahaha
Ravi's Evil Twin

these comments are hilarious. No one here knows a single thing about sadhguru or any mystic for that matter. This
article tries to criticize sadhguru but you cannot even comprehend his capability to do things. Forget about having
the capability to know mystical dimensions of life almost everyone here cannot even survive alone in a forest. How
many of you can survive on 3 hours of sleep for decades and do physical activity 20 hours a day? How many of you
can touch another person so deep without saying a word that will make them cry? You may be great at criticizing
and arguing but nothing will be transformed. Even if you have all the knowledge in the universe your life still won’t
be ful lled and it’s a quite wasted life if you don’t see what this life is possible of. Only those who are seeking truly
will know life the rest will just make stupid conclusions and die. Sadhguru can do many many things that will seem
like god like to you but he won’t because he isn’t seeking that kind of attention he just needs to do his work.
Ravi
@Ravi’s Evil Twin
Cute handle.
No one here knows a single thing about sadhguru or any mystic for that matter.

I lived with people in a cult. I know how their minds work. This is a psychology topic of interest for me. I know of
several mystics and the damage they caused in their followers lives, damage that the followers themselves are
unable to recognize. How many mystics and cults from how many cultural traditions did you study?
 Forget about having the capability to know mystical dimensions of life

There are no “mystical dimensions of life” dude. There is however such a thing as a Spiritual/Religious Experience
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_experience
You have been duped to believing that this is Enlightenment. It isn’t. It is the opposite of what the word has meant
since the scienti c revolution.
It is a genuine, neurologically-mediated, perspective changing sensory experience. The experience is real. What is at
aw is the interpretation of it. It is not connecting you to any “super-reality”, but people who experienced it think it
is. Nearly all world religions are based on this experience, interpreted in di erent cultural and civilizational
contexts. There is plenty of science on this. You don’t need a mystic for it, a mushroom will do. Often, even that is
not necessary.
Your guru does not want you to know the science behind this. Naturally, he brainwashed you into thinking that
science is nothing. They all do that. That is his motive for downplaying science – to make sure that people like you
get none the wiser.
 almost everyone here cannot even survive alone in a forest.

Neither can your billionaire, helicopter guru.
 How many of you can survive on 3 hours of sleep for decades and do physical activity 20 hours a day?
Is that what Jaggi is telling you? I did not know Jaggi was doing this, but it is a very well-known cult tactic to tell
followers they don’t need much sleep and give them absurdly lofty goals of not needing sleep. Sleep-deprived
cultists are very pliant, have very low critical analysis abilities – good sheep.
vanwinkles . com/sleep-deprivation-and-cults-including-jonestown-the-moonies-aum-shinri-kyo-heavens-gate
Jaggi is a light-weight compared to these well-known cults, as is his “power”.
I pride myself on making the e ort to get as much sleep as I can get, even if I don’t always succeed. Sleep is your
friend. All research shows that sleep is critical to a sound mind.
A tired mind is more vulnerable to delusions and yes, “spiritual experiences”. Once you have a “spiritual
experience”, you will be blown away by it and you be completely defenseless against all reason and the cult can
program you any way it likes. You will believe in anything programmed into you right after you had it. If you are told
that it is the super-consciousness, you will believe it. If you are told that it is the holy spirit and you need to
proselytize everyone, you will believe it. If you are told that you now need to strap a suicide vest because that is
what is best for you, you will believe it and do it. Such is the disaster of this so-called “enlightenment”. In your case,
Jaggi probably will just tell you to work for free his empire.
 How many of you can touch another person so deep without saying a word that will make them cry?
One too many cult leaders. Read a few books on cults and come back. Your guru ain’t that special. You just think so
since this is the only cult you know. That is the case with every cultist.
The power isn’t in him. The vulnerability is in those that seek it.
 You may be great at criticizing and arguing but nothing will be transformed.
My issue isn’t speci cally against Jaggi, it is against all these money-grubbing mystics in general. I am treating Jaggi
as a routine cult leader.
Even if you have all the knowledge in the universe your life still won’t be ful lled and it’s a quite wasted life

if you don’t see what this life is possible of.
Oh, please do tell me what new possibilities you have discovered after joining the Jaggi cult that I am incapable of
imagining. Impress me.
 Only those who are seeking truly will know life the rest will just make stupid conclusions and die.
Said every fanatic ever. After that, they next say that what they are not in a cult and they are not in a religion, they
are just spiritual. Next you will lecture me of how Jaggi is not religious, of how he is beyond all traditional religion, of
how you are all about Truth and Enlightenment. Heard it all. Both from eastern and western cults.
 Sadhguru can do many many things that will seem like god like to you but he won’t
Fraud-like, not god-like.
You are making it really easy to show that you are a genuine cult member. Others above defended him far better
than you.
Look, you have fallen victim for a cult. No one who has fallen victim ever admits that they did. They ferociously
defend that they have not. I don’t expect to convince you. It takes years for someone like you to process what they
did to you (and what you did to yourself – the complacency was yours and will be the hardest to get over). I would
consider you lucky, if you realized after several years from now on how YOU wasted YOUR life. As someone who
lived with insu erable cultists, I know.
Then you can lament like the rest of the ex-ISHA people on
tapatalk . com/groups/guruphiliac/sadhguru-and-the-isha-foundation-t2073569.html
while current-ISHA people deride you saying it was all your failure that you are in disillusionment, that the guru is
never wrong etc, etc. Seen it all before.
he isn’t seeking that kind of attention he just needs to do his work.

Is that why he is in rich countries marketing his programs and spending time mostly with celebrities? Yeah, not
attention seeking at all.
KKSram
Sorry, though I do not have time to read all things written and commented, but understood or ‘perceived’ the
thoughts of people.
Whatever said and done, now one can entirely understand the REAL universe and science for “REAL”. every one
perceives to understand something and wish to share it as REAL and the listeners ‘think’ and ‘perceive’ their own
way and pass it on. This is the “REALITY” we are living in and has to live with. NO ONE or Collectively can never
UNDERSTND it fully. Even biggest of biggest SCIENCE inventions are made to realize.
DO NOT TRY to defend any nor refute any, as long as the things are taken out of control.
Live the life with genuine and open mind to understand the reality forever.
Ravi
@KKSram
Sorry, though I do not have time to read all things written and commented, but understood or ‘perceived’ the

thoughts of people.
Next time, try reading. From your post, “perceiving thoughts of people” does not seem to be working.
 every one perceives to understand something and wish to share it as REAL and the listeners ‘think’ and
‘perceive’ their own way and pass it on.
This is what I mean about being a Jaggi tape recorder. How many years did you spend in ISHA?
 NO ONE or Collectively can never UNDERSTND it fully.

Especially these self-declared to be enlightened and “fully realized yogis”.
 DO NOT TRY to defend any nor refute any

Sure. Go and tell Jaggi not to defend and refute anything, not just his critics.
In the cult I observed, they had this thing called: “Leave like a gentleman”. Sounds decent on the surface, but here is
what they really meant. If you liked what they did, they will gradually get you to drop all your free time and
endlessly proselytize on their behalf and work for their organization. But if you got disillusioned, you are told to just
leave quietly, without voicing any critique. That way they managed to censor their group such that members would
only hear positive things about themselves but never the dark side of their cult.
Defending and refuting are what thinking people do. If anyone tells you to live blankly, they are telling you to live
like zombies. That is not enlightenment. We should try to not judge emotionally, but analytical judgment is
essential. If you don’t, other people will judge for you – which is what happens in all cults, the cult leader does the
thinking and tells the members to suspend independent thought and go along as lemmings.
Is there value in occasionally sitting quietly and try looking at the world non-judgmentally to gain a di erent
perspective? Sure. But you can’t run your life like that. Jaggi is judging all the time. This article was written because
he was incompetently judging science.
BTW, who gave this title Sadhguru to Jaggi? The leader of the cult I observed also gave himself a similar title. They all
want to be larger than life.
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHUaNAxsTg&t=180s
Ravi
October 10, 2017 at 11:40 pm
@Anonymous
Rupert Sheldrake is yet another well-known pseudoscience guy in the so-called “parapsychology”, much like Dean
Radin. These guys imagine themselves to be Einsteins and Galileos while spinning fantasy theories. The scienti c
community recognizes their ideas as utter nonsense. So they write books for people who don’t have a good
education in science but overestimate their understanding of it. They are popular among new agers and conspiracy
theorists.
Also see Sokal A air

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_a air
This was a famous prank played by the physicist Alan Sokal to expose the so-called journals that called themselves
“open-minded”. They were basically publishing any garbage forwarded to them with no real peer review. Sokal’s
paper was a deliberately written up arbitrary nonsense by throwing around some science like terms such as the
“morphogenetic eld” – Sheldrake’s woo.
Please don’t cite TEDx talks. They let all sorts of garbage in. There is no quality control.
Shanmugam
The whole issue could have been avoided by not talking about Higgs boson.. He could have avoided a lot of
criticism about him by just not talking about Higgs boson, especially when he doesn’t know what it is..
I can tell you very con dently that meditation has got nothing to do with outer world and any knowledge that has to
do with outer world.. I have been meditating for more than 15 years: it has given me ultimate well being and peace,
it made me to look at things the way they are, it made me to look at reality in a totally di erent perspective and
more. But if I want to know about Higgs boson, I have to study the appropriate science text book and I can’t know it
with any kind of meditation, period..
Here is what he is trying to do in that video: He claims that emptiness is the basic essence of existence, that our
yogic system already knows it and that scientists have been wrong from the very beginning.
First of all, I know that Yogic culture doesn’t mention a word that literally means ‘emptiness’ , as the essence of
existence… Yoga says that world originated from unconscious principle, prakriti.. But the concept of emptiness
does exist in Buddhism as well as Vigyan bhairav tantra and it is actually similar to what we call as ‘Brahman’ in
vedanta’.. (Sadhguru must have picked it up from Osho’s commentary on Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, he quotes a lot
from Osho: https://www.quora.com/Has-Sadhguru-copied-the-ideology-and-thoughts-of-
Osho/answer/Shanmugam-P-12?srid=hJCJi).
But this concept of emptiness actually means ‘empty of any attributes’ which is purely subjective.. It has got nothing
to do with objective world. When we say ‘nirguna Brahman’, it means ‘Brahman without attributes’… This pure
witness which is empty of attributes can be tasted in deep meditation and it has been my own experience. But
people, including Vedantins fail to understand that it is subjective only and nothing to do with outer world. You go
through this emptiness whenever you sleep but it is experienced without consciousness..When it is experienced
consciously it is the peak of meditation.
The main reason for this confusion is caused probably by people who interpreted scriptures without tasting
meditation. It has been happening since the ancient days.. There has been lot of misinterpretations and
interpolations which has changed the whole meaning of the scriptures. Vedantic scriptures are poetry ; when we
interpret a poem, we need to understand that they tend to have eulogies, metaphors and other gures of speech.
Obviously, no yogi has talked about atoms, the mass of its nucleus, behavior of electrons in quantum level etc. Just
by taking a statement that says ‘emptiness is the essence of everything’ and saying that we know everything all
along is ————-.. (You can ll in the blank with any word you like, by putting yourself in a scientist’s shoes)
And people who try to support Sadhguru in this particular scenario don’t understand another problem. The more
they try to justify this, the more others will think that Isha followers have become totally blind and have been
brainwashed..I can understand their emotions, but this is not the time to let the emotions cloud their thinking. They
will not only fail in their attempt to justify it but they will also bring more bad name to Isha.
Dr Mohan Ranawade
October 12, 2017 at 10:01 am
Religious efdoms , belonging to the Sadgurus, Shanakarcharyas, Mullahs and the Pope have but one common
enemy….Science !
These people have fought science throughout centuries and they will continue to ght,demoralise scienti c
methods and practice.
The biggest loser is India , wherein science had always been and still is being denounced .
JV
How Cults Work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJyfqeaKU8
Ravi
A better quality version of the above

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3wTtmrFQxI
Sam Harris on gurus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbKZ3pcjsjc
Sam Harris had a spiritual experience, left Stanford, came to India, listened to gurus, eventually returning back to
US as an author and completing a PhD on the neuroscience of beliefs.
The faux “science” of Sheldrake

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake
contrast that with Alan Sokal’s critical thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuKmMyhnG94
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack
They still remember him in Oregon for that, not for his “teachings”.
Ravi
Didn’t clear the forum spam lter. Reposting with disabled links. Remove spaces.
A better quality version of the above

youtube . com/watch?v=C3wTtmrFQxI
Sam Harris on gurus

youtube . com/watch?v=CbKZ3pcjsjc
Sam Harris had a spiritual experience, left Stanford, came to India, listened to gurus, eventually returning back to
US as an author and completing a PhD on the neuroscience of beliefs.
The faux “science” of Sheldrake
rationalwiki . org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake
contrast that with Alan Sokal’s critical thought.

youtube . com/watch?v=kuKmMyhnG94
en.wikipedia . org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack
They still remember him in Oregon for that, not for his “teachings”.
Swaminathan
October 14, 2017 at 11:15 am
In my opinion, this guy is now getting dangerous… Because, he is starting to bring back the old beliefs and
rationalize everything in the name of science. But this is not how this guy started doing business.. Initially, he was
all against rituals, yantras, mantras, beliefs etc.. But slowly in the last several years, he is justifying all the old beliefs
saying that there is a deep science behind everything. Right now, his only focus seems to be to prove that
everything that we suspect to be superstitious is actually science.
He attracts people by using logic in the rst place (by talking like a skeptic),.
Then he convinces people to not to think logically.
Finally he says whatever he wants to say; He cooks up a lot of stories and gives them by mixing them with facts;
And no matter what he says, people end up in believing him..
This three fold process he is using is very clever. But the followers don’t realize how easily they are fooled this way.
He is changing all the skeptics into believers again! What a tragedy!
On the other hand, he emotionally appeals to people by doing things like Rally for rivers etc (like a politician who
pleases people for the votes in the next election) and makes sure that he gets good name.. Because now, if anyone
criticizes him then the critic will be labelled as somebody who doesn’t care about the country, who doesn’t care
about the rivers and tries to nd problems in every solution.
He is a clever businessman with political mind and knows how to sell his product. But if he had picked up some
other business, I would have appreciated it . He picked up the spiritual business which is hot in US and India and
the bullshit he is promoting is actually making India going backwards. Because I can clearly witness that the
followers don’t use any logic and reasoning anymore.. The comments that I see here proves that.
By the way, I know about both Yoga and Vedanta and what he is teaching is neither of those. It is just a mixture of
Osho’s ideas with some of his own beliefs. And he has used the methods that he learnt from Osho’s books and
Rishi prabhakar’s course to cook up his own version of yoga courses. This guy is the most dangerous fake guru than
anyone else, because he uses clever techniques to make others to fall for his business instead of using the stupid
techniques used by most other fake gurus.(like pulling out lingas from mouth, declaring oneself as avatar etc).
There is a close friend of mine. He used to be very intelligent and a critical thinker. After watching a few videos,
attending a 7 day program and reading his books, he no longer thinks or speaks the way he used to. He sometimes
sounds totally illogical and he also parrots Jaggi a lot. The worst thing is, he becomes very angry and reactive if
anyone around him criticizes and makes fun of Jaggi. He looks dull than before but he claims that Jaggi has changed
his life. And now his family and friends worry what happened to this guy. His performance in the job has gone
down because he is always busy checking youtube videos of Jaggi, listening to podcasts and he walks around like a
zombie. All he does in social media now is sharing Jaggi’s videos and posts… He doesn’t live his life he used to
anymore.. I feel very sad and sorry for him.
This has to be stopped and something has to be done. I think Nurmukta can do something about it by publicly
challenging some of his claims, especially the claim that he can change the taste of the water by touch. I also read
somewhere that he imitates Osho and quotes him verbatim but pretending to be a original thinker. There was clear
evidence and citations. Nirmukta can probably write one more article exposing all these. That would actually save
many people.
You guys did a good job in writing this article. I request you to do something more about this problem. (my sister
was very excited about Rally for Rivers recently and I showed her your article and a few more. But she says she
doesn’t care but she is just watching his videos for time pass.. But I know this is how it starts and I am getting
worried now. Those bald ladies in his ashram are haunting me in my dreams, I really don’t want my sister to
become one).
Harshad
This is a very interesting blog.

India has too many intellectuals per ca pita. Many of them are now in the western world and doing just great.
Unfortunately the English majors have very little to do in India. They certainly cannot make too much money. So a
few of them decide to become Gurus. And India has millions of people desperate to follow some living deity.
Persons like “Ram Rahim” are extreme examples. Satya Saibaba was possibly similar. To give their position some
legitimacy they certainly do some good, serve the poor, take up some current environmental issues and so on. No
matter what their ultimate objective these things are commendable. But in the end, they want to increase number
of their followers and the ow of money in their co ers.
JV has said in one of his daily sermons,” people will believe most absurd things in the name of religion”, and that
certainly is true about many things he says himself.
Yes, some of the things he says are thought provoking and even true, but most are inaccurate at best.
Although I do not approve of his methods and arguments to appear legitimate, I cannot ignore the fact that at
some level they are providing some solace to some in the masses.
Prashant
October 16, 2017 at 11:48 am
@Ravi
You are doing an excellent work here. You may not be able to convince the staunch followers of their ignorance but
your comments will surely help those in doubt to understand how science works.
I think there must be a course in our school about how scienti c theories are postulated and how they are peer
reviewed and the whole process of the science community endorsing the theory and giving its legitimacy. I have
heard most of the religious gurus making ridiculous comments that “Theory of Evolution” is just a theory and hence
yet to be proven. They do not understand the meaning of Scienti c Theory.
Nye, says mobile and internet is technology and not science. Now imagine you are dealing with someone with that
level of ignorance. Nye is blinded and may never understand or even attempt to understand what you are trying to
say. But there are readers who read your side of the narrative, the side of science and that’s where your
engagement is so crucial.
There is someone called Dr Krishna Kumari who works tirelessly for the cause of Science an example of how to
bring down pseudo science –
http://kkartlab.in/group/some-science/forum/topics/how-pseudo-science-is-born?xg_source=activity
Thank you
Warm regards
Prashant
Swaminathan
October 16, 2017 at 12:56 pm
Prashant… Good points. I think scientists should debate with him and challenge his claims. There seems to be no
limit for bullshit he is spreading. I am pretty certain that Jaggi Vasudev is the most dangerous guy in India now, who
is capable of destroying people’s intelligence.
By the way, there is a mystery behind her wife’s death. I also came across this:
http://halfcenturywisdom.blogspot.in/2016/08/a-chance-encounter-that-stirred-me-to.html . What if this is true?
He has a lot of power to in uence politicians now. But if this government changes, he may be challenged.
Also came across this video posted a day before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O53M-VVhal0 I don’t know if it
is in telugu or kannada, but I can understand the tribal lady, since she is speaking in Tamil. It seems that Isha’s land
grabbing is true.
Ravi
Thanks Prashanth. Yes Swaminathan. He sounds as dangerous as Ram Rahim, the more I read about him. Harshad,
while I understand your sentiment, it is not true that India is producing a high number of intellectuals “per capita”
(although, since we are a big country, non-rate-adjusted numbers make things appear di erently). The problem is
the opposite. Most of our college grads lack basic critical thinking skills, including those that go to the west (which
seems to be why he is expanding his operations).
There seems to be a new Youtube channel that catalogs Jaggi’s illiterate claims.
youtube . com/channel/UCOlspUV pJZ4G2L4Z7 ww/videos
Hat’s o to the irreverent user Sad Guru who took the time to compile these. More will help. Obviously, he is
trolling, but what matters are Jaggi’s words on record.
It is pretty easy to test these.

youtube . com/watch?v=_uzULQ9DW-k
Claim: He can basically do divination on if the water is “poisonous”. He also seems to still think miasmatic theory of
disease (diseases spread through “poison gases”) still holds 165 years after it has been disproven. And this guy
want to talk about Quantum Mechanics? He isn’t quali ed to utter those 2 words.
Test: Put 100 kamadalas and put any thing that quali es as “poison” (his words) that is colorless and odorless in
some random 10 of them. Then he can go with his magic rudrakshas to each of them and let’s see what the success
rate is.
As I hear, Jaggi is peddling these trinkets. So I assume the claim is that they will work for anyone. So you don’t even
need Jaggi to agree to test these. Any brainwashed Jaggi follower will do and there is an oversupply of them. A TV
channel should do this in collaboration with the local rationalist chapter (normal scientists are usually not equipped
for this, you need a skeptic with experience in dealing with fraud on a regular basis). They will get their publicity.
You can be guaranteed that Jaggi will come up with all sorts of excuses on why that failed.
youtube . com/watch?v=cCwEDEOpMOM
There is an entire eld of study called Thanatology that meticulously catalogs which tissues irreversibly die at what
stage. This clown is saying “a tantric” can bring back the dead even after the body has cooled down, using TANTRIC
methods (what else), even after rigor mortis – does not matter if the brain tissue died (irreversible), does not matter
if the blood coagulated (irreversible) etc – Why? Because tantric.
youtube . com/watch?v=whlHAlSI4Oc
And here he is claiming that
a.) he can paralyze and inebriate you by just touching your spine – that can be tested – not using his brainwashed
fans who scream like teenage girls in a Beatles or Elvis concert, but with actual skeptical subjects. It will end the
same way the TV challenge with the tantric and the rationalist ended (youtube).
b.) The age of western ghats – factually false
c.) you can use Rudrakhas to identify which leaf is packed in a cloth sack – again testable.
And there are lots more…

Again, hats o to the Sad Guru channel.
Seriously Isha-ites? You watch absolutely idiotic claims like this and it never occurs to you whether you should test
these? You don’t think this guy has lost touch with reality? According to you, an “enlightened” guy would just
“perceive” reality in its most truthful form, in ways that normal people like us supposedly can’t. You think all this
stupidity is direct perception of reality? And you want to lecture people on what science is?
No one except brainwashed people would not get up and walk or call him out after hearing idiocy like this. Jaggi is
Ram Rahim, just with better English skills and savvy. And your tribal (no o ense to actual tribals, the type that get
defrauded by Jaggi) behavior on Youtube is the web equivalent of Ram Rahim’s follower’s behavior on the streets.
You have no answers – just bluster and tantrums.
Please feel free to comment, defending on how any of this garbage is defensible. Don’t name-call. Don’t posture.
Bring arguments. Bring proofs.
Note that he is crafty enough not to spout this garbage in front of western audience. There he sticks to abstract
talk. He seems to titrate the levels of idiocy according to the audience’s gullibility – layers of onion from the “How
cults work” video.
Jaggi is selling a psychology product, not a psychic product mind you, but a psychology product. He is mislabeling
an altered mental state as enlightenment, while it is exactly the opposite: de-enlightenment.
Jaggi fans: Here is a homework for you. Go to any random stranger, one who does not know you or your Jaggi
fanaticism and ask them to describe how an enlightenment man would behave. Then, compare notes with how
Jaggi behaves. I don’t see how you see this highly-egotistic (tell me how Jaggi is free from self and ego), judgmental,
arrogant, manipulative, extreme materialist (as in: I want a helicopter bought with money I told people to donate by
skipping meals materialism, not the rigorous scienti c materialism) who lacks humility or awareness of his
profound ignorance, as some one who is enlightened; all because you got a psychological experience in a program
at his McDonald style franchise? – This is not even fast-food spirituality. You don’t see a con-artist and a snake-oil
(or rather, magic rudraksha) salesman in plain sight? Explain.
Please educate yourself about cults. They feel good in the short term, but are invariably destructive to your mental
health, to your families and your nancial future. There are many books on the topic of cult psychology, none of
them written with Jaggi in mind and yet they are as if they are written with Jaggi in mind. You owe it to yourself and
if not, to your family to inform yourself.
Prashant
October 17, 2017 at 11:06 am
Yesterday scientist observed collision of neutron star. It was a rich source of gravitational waves and gamma rays. It
was one of the most amazing cosmic events observed by humans. Mainly scientists from LIGO and VIRGO(yes they
got the Nobel Prize a few weeks earlier).
Einstein predicted gravitational waves and that they travel at the speed of light.
According to General Relativity gravity can bend light and Neutron Star being so dense it was observed so clearly
that light can’t escape the huge pull of the Neutron star that LIGHT orbits round it.
Now why am I saying this? Because this is science and it happened just yesterday. It was observed and all those
Scienti c theories by the giants of science where vetted and proven(again). This is how science works.
What Jaggi and his followers are peddling is an insult to the true greatness at work here. It is an insult to all those
geniuses and their brilliant mind, their hard work, their passion and their painstaking and vigorous toil for facts.
So all those Gurus and quackery practitioners back o this is science. And you the blind followers I genuinely pity
you. Please note that followers of Nithyananda, Ram Rahim and their ilks also had the same con dence in their
Gurus as you have in yours. It is just matter of time before the stupidity gets exposed.
Ravi
Here is a book on cult psychology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Way_Home
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_J._Deikman
And here is the summary of the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htqOIjzi-jE
I can assert that I witnessed ALL of these phenomena in the cult I observed and I see them in the followers of Jaggi
and Ram Rahim.
Vijay
in my opinion these self styled Gurus does not know Hindus scriptures either. The assumption that his sermons are
in consistent with Vedic knowledge is false.
I don’t know if knows science or not, but I think he does not know Hinduism
Hindu belief can be summarized below.
Only Brahmam (God) exists nothing else- space, time, universe is unreal.
Individual self (soul) = supreme soul of Gods = This Brahmam
individuals consider self as body and mind and are ignorant. So we cannot directly comprehend this Brahmam who
is beyond senses and imagination.
hence worship the forms of God
Ritual discipline (karma associated with one’s caste and ashrama) perfomed without desire leads to purity of mind.
To perform without desire and attachment one need to follow the morals and values of scriptures.
Once purity of mind is achieved, with devotion supreme knowledge of self is achieved. thus one attain salvation
These morals, values, rituals associated with varna and ashrama are time tested and proven. No need to reinvent it
Simple
Ravi
@Swaminathan
 There is a close friend of mine. He used to be very intelligent and a critical thinker. After watching a few
videos, attending a 7 day program and reading his books, he no longer thinks or speaks the way he used to.
Two researchers, Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman explored what you describe. They interviewed numerous ex-
cultists and additionally, their friends and family members. It was very common for friends and family members to
describe EXACTLY what you have witnessed. As interviews continued, the researchers noticed that there was a
common word that was being used by friends and family members, again and again – “snapped”. It was as if the
cult victim’s mind was suddenly broken – snapped, snapped into something else, not through a slow gradual
change that one would imagine, but rather through an abrupt transition.
The indoctrination routines where this snapping occurs seem identical to ISHA programs – sensory deprivation,
sleep deprivation, thought-stopping exercises, breathing manipulation etc.
They wrote a whole book about it in 1978.

Snapping: America’s Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapping:_America%27s_Epidemic_of_Sudden_Personality_Change
In the book, they trace cults of all kinds – eastern and western. The psychological patterns are the same since the
human minds are the same and all cults use more or less the same techniques in modern times.
Vijay
October 19, 2017 at 11:05 am
@Ravi,
Sorry to cross your path again jumping in middle of your conversation. I respect your arguments/balanced posts
though it is opposite to my beliefs.
I think in India starting from 19th century , which strengthened in 20th and 21st there is a fancy for “spiritualism”.
Traditional organized religions were considered bad and spiritual guru`s orders become fashionable. Post Dera
(Ram Rahim) chief’s arrests, there is some reversal?
Hinduism traditionally been strongly coupled with family, community /caste. Religious are often very disciplined
and follow routine. Even Adi Sankara says ritual discipline leads to purity of mind necessary for spirituality.
I personally seen those who follow well de ned routine and are disciplined are emotionally strong and consistent in
their attitudes and beliefs and even character. They are also healthy.
They may have false beliefs, and could be wrong, but they will be consistent unlike your friend
Ravi
@Vijay
It is not MY conversation :-). I don’t even think we are on opposite sides on this topic. I question his science. You
question his theology.
Jaggi is about neither. He uses both when they serve him and puts them down when they don’t. He invokes
bogus/tiny studies to claim that his “Inner Enginnering” is scienti cally proven (such a common tactic that it is
represented in the How Cults Work video), but says that scientists don’t get it, when it suits him to dismiss science
so that he may elevate himself as wiser than science in his follower’s minds. Likewise, he will quote theology when
it suits him to sound traditional, but will say that the only scripture he seriously studied was Asterix, when it suits
him otherwise. Jaggi is for Jaggi.
It is not just India. Even in the West, it is fashionable to say you are spiritual, not religious… even if you are religious.
From the late 60s (cults like Scientology began earlier in the 50s), especially over the 70s and into the 80s, there
were quite a few cults in US. During this time, seemingly educated people fell for them. Gradually however, the
awareness of the concept of the cult increased and public generally gained an awareness of the manipulative
methods being used. But that took devastating events like that of Jonestown, Heaven’s Gate and Rajneeshpuram in
the better educated US for people to come to their senses. It looks like India is just beginning to enter this phase
and the guru cults have just begun in India on the large scale. It will take a lot more abuse before our countrymen
realize the nature of these groups. As a country, we are much slower to respond to problems due to institutional
inertia.
I do not think that Ram Rahim’s conviction heralds an end to this guru epidemic. I think it will take several more
convictions (The gurus won’t be able to help it. They will invariably abuse and exploit followers because their so-
called “wisdom” is only for appearances and power always corrupts – all these godmen are human, all too human)
before the public understands the cult phenomenon and learns to view these pompous charlatans with
appropriately suspicious evaluations.
Ravi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw1LQXuwfLk
Apparently, some nobel laureate told him that if he puts his idea in math, he can get a Nobel for it. I think Jaggi
misunderstood what was being said. I attend Nobel laureate talks now and then, when they speak at our research
center. They are not mysterious creatures to me. When we in science say you can get a Nobel if you can prove that
to a person outside science, we more often mean this: Your idea is so ridiculous that the entire conception of reality
has to be restructured to accommodate it and since such a restructuring would be so monumental, you are only
likely to prove your idea in a Nobel winning scenario. The colloquial expression of the same would be: Yeah, when
pigs y.
I think Jaggi either did not grasp this or did, but was con dent that his fans would not, and so is actually bragging
about it. That is what I meant when I said: “Now Radin will totally get a Nobel prize in physics”. It means that there is
no chance of that happening.
I said that because his idea that consciousness just needs to be ipped to the bottom of his silly pyramid is so
monumentally stupid. Of course Radin, who has no record of receiving any biology education (let alone
Neuroscience – Psychology is NOT Neuroscience) is quite illiterate about the things he talks about and can’t grasp
why it is so monumentally stupid to even propose that and why actual scientists don’t even give him a glance.
And he goes on about how he does not care for a Nobel. No Jaggi, you don’t do a Nobel level work because you
want an award. You do it because Truth needs to be shown. It is our obligation to humanity. And you don’t need to
know math. Someone who knows math will come by and assist you, IF there is any actual substance in your idea.
When people in science tell you to give it a mathematical backbone, they mean: your idea is not clearly thought-out.
Forcing yourself to express it in math will give YOU more clarity in thinking about it, rather than spin silly conceptual
webs without any intellectual discipline.
And nally Truth isn’t about “this is how it is within me”, it is about how things are universally. Subjective models of
reality are not science, they are merely your opinions.
This documentary show how nutty the guru cults can go. This is a BBC documentary about Aum Shinrikyo (Om –
The Supreme Truth). They chanted Om, claimed that the founder channeled Shiva and Jesus, meditated, did yoga,
were told to not read, say or question with anything critical of the group, the leader was considered infalliable and
wise. They believed that they developed super-powers through meditation and could heal, levitate and have divya-
dhrushti & astral projection. Sounds familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XelFvih2n_8
They additionally used LSD, a drug that is well-known to induce religious/spiritual experiences (the so called
enlightenment) – a whole lot more e ective than hypoxic inducement (that is what rapid breathing does to you, via
carbon dioxide washout which in turn temporarily suppresses the respiratory centers in the brain – the hypoxia
messes up the brain, causes dizziness, induces hallucinations and whatnot) by breath control and by thought-
stopping (chanting or focusing on a single word/image etc) exercises. People who attain this so-called psychological
“enlightenment” become highly programmable in those states – zombies, robots. They also tried electric helmets,
trying to copy their guru’s brain waves.
(Please pursue meditation, spirituality and whatever you consider enlightenment in private, not in boot camp
franchises – that will give you some protection from mental abuse. Indians never did that in our history, AFAIK –
commercial, fast food spirituality is not our culture).
The cultists who leaked the deadly gas were 2 physicists, a very skilled chemist, an AI researcher and a cardiologist.
If you are a Jaggi follower, ask yourself this – If these arguably very intelligent people could fall for this, why do you
think you are immune to brainwashing and mind-control techniques? They also considered themselves seekers.
One of them even came to India (from Japan) to learn Yoga, before joining Aum. They all likely experienced the
altered mental states and assumed they were enlightened. These were genuine, intelligent and innocent people
who were trying to pursue spirituality. They were seemingly well-educated (at least well-skilled, education is a lot
more than university degrees). They were not evil in the sense that they did not want anything from the world for
their greed. They were just disillusioned by material pursuits. Yet these ordinary people were manipulated to do
awful things in the name of their guru and his mission. They believed everything their guru said without using their
brains to question. Like any cult, Aum broke families, turned people to mindless zombies, gobbled up the money of
its members into the organization and tried to steal land.
Our guru cults are relatively unsophisticated compared to cults like these. Ram Rahim was a tractor driver before
he came the Dera chief and did not have any signi cant education. So he mostly only managed to mesmerize
poorly educated people. But looking at twitter, he seems to have some skilled people as followers as well. How
does this happen? When one places themselves in an information bubble, even the most absurd things sound
reasonable.
Jaggi does have excellent english skills and is gifted in rhetoric – he may not have any substance in what he says,
but we can all agree that everything stupid (and he has a lot of stupid stu to say) sounds awesome when he says it
– great voice, language, structure and delivery, but much of it falls like a house of cards when given a minute of
critical scrutiny, so his followers have to resort to “perceive” (be a good tape recorder),-but-don’t-judge mantras,
because this stu can’t stand to any critical judgment.
The most outrageous lies that can be invented will nd believers if a man only tells them with all his might – Mark
Twain.
Unlike Aum, he does not have to wage a war against the state because in our country, because thanks to the short-
sightedness of our politicians (forget about which party, they all have to chase vote banks), the state tries to
kowtow to cult leaders, gives awards etc. Like the Aum leader, the ISHA leader claims his followers can develop
super-powers and that he already has them. He says many of his followers already have the powers to heal the sick
and predict the future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2qwjFtUNU
Jaggi fans, do you think you have already have super-powers? Or do you think you will be able to in the future if
only you stayed longer with ISHA? Jaggi seems to be crafty here. He seems to know that his followers really don’t
have anything of the sort. He seems to just want them to feel awesome for forking their money over, because he
says he will kick anyone who actually tests their powers out and magically remove their spirituality with a
vengeance. Apparently, healing people is just a cheap trick according to him. Really? Curing a ward full of sick kids
dying of cancer is a cheap trick? What di erence does it make to life?
Here is the Aum guy purporting super-powers in a TV-anime style propaganda video in the 90s. TV anime was cool
then, especially for Japan. Now it is Youtube for us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVnscHsPfR4
20+ years later, we have Jaggi’s internet brigade working overtime on social media trying to give an illusion that
there is consensus that this guy who says he has magical rudrakshas to sell that “are smarter than you” and can
detect imaginary poisons and leaves, that tantra is not a superstition but totally real, that cold corpses with clotted
blood and decaying tissues (brain dies in minutes without oxygen at room temperature, there is nothing left to
bring back after hours) can be magically brought back to life, that atoms yield to meditation etc etc.. is somehow a
wise philosopher and not a routine cult leader taking India back so that it has no chance to succeed in the rapidly
evolving scienti c world of tomorrow, just so he can make money – now that is a cynical materialist. People like him
will make an Africa out of us when we need to wake up like China.
Ravi
Reposting without direct links…….
youtube. com/watch?v=Iw1LQXuwfLk
Apparently, some nobel laureate told him that if he puts his idea in math, he can get a Nobel for it. I think Jaggi
misunderstood what was being said. I attend Nobel laureate talks now and then, when they speak at our research
center. They are not mysterious creatures to me. When we in science say you can get a Nobel if you can prove that
to a person outside science, we more often mean this: Your idea is so ridiculous that the entire conception of reality
has to be restructured to accommodate it and since such a restructuring would be so monumental, you are only
likely to prove your idea in a Nobel winning scenario. The colloquial expression of the same would be: Yeah, when
pigs y.
I think Jaggi either did not grasp this or did, but was con dent that his fans would not, and so is actually bragging
about it. That is what I meant when I said: “Now Radin will totally get a Nobel prize in physics”. It means that there is
no chance of that happening.
I said that because his idea that consciousness just needs to be ipped to the bottom of his silly pyramid is so
monumentally stupid. Of course Radin, who has no record of receiving any biology education (let alone
Neuroscience – Psychology is NOT Neuroscience) is quite illiterate about the things he talks about and can’t grasp
why it is so monumentally stupid to even propose that and why actual scientists don’t even give him a glance.
And he goes on about how he does not care for a Nobel. No Jaggi, you don’t do a Nobel level work because you
want an award. You do it because Truth needs to be shown. It is our obligation to humanity. And you don’t need to
know math. Someone who knows math will come by and assist you, IF there is any actual substance in your idea.
When people in science tell you to give it a mathematical backbone, they mean: your idea is not clearly thought-out.
Forcing yourself to express it in math will give YOU more clarity in thinking about it, rather than spin silly conceptual
webs without any intellectual discipline.
And nally Truth isn’t about “this is how it is within me”, it is about how things are universally. Subjective models of
reality are not science, they are merely your opinions.
This documentary show how nutty the guru cults can go. This is a BBC documentary about Aum Shinrikyo (Om –
The Supreme Truth). They chanted Om, claimed that the founder channeled Shiva and Jesus, meditated, did yoga,
were told to not read, say or question with anything critical of the group, the leader was considered infalliable and
wise. They believed that they developed super-powers through meditation and could heal, levitate and have divya-
dhrushti & astral projection. Sounds familiar?
youtube. com/watch?v=XelFvih2n_8
They additionally used LSD, a drug that is well-known to induce religious/spiritual experiences (the so called
enlightenment) – a whole lot more e ective than hypoxic inducement (that is what rapid breathing does to you, via
carbon dioxide washout which in turn temporarily suppresses the respiratory centers in the brain – the hypoxia
messes up the brain, causes dizziness, induces hallucinations and whatnot) by breath control and by thought-
stopping (chanting or focusing on a single word/image etc) exercises. People who attain this so-called psychological
“enlightenment” become highly programmable in those states – zombies, robots. They also tried electric helmets,
trying to copy their guru’s brain waves.
(Please pursue meditation, spirituality and whatever you consider enlightenment in private, not in boot camp
franchises – that will give you some protection from mental abuse. Indians never did that in our history, AFAIK –
commercial, fast food spirituality is not our culture).
The cultists who leaked the deadly gas were 2 physicists, a very skilled chemist, an AI researcher and a cardiologist.
If you are a Jaggi follower, ask yourself this – If these arguably very intelligent people could fall for this, why do you
think you are immune to brainwashing and mind-control techniques? They also considered themselves seekers.
One of them even came to India (from Japan) to learn Yoga, before joining Aum. They all likely experienced the
altered mental states and assumed they were enlightened. These were genuine, intelligent and innocent people
who were trying to pursue spirituality. They were seemingly well-educated (at least well-skilled, education is a lot
more than university degrees). They were not evil in the sense that they did not want anything from the world for
their greed. They were just disillusioned by material pursuits. Yet these ordinary people were manipulated to do
awful things in the name of their guru and his mission. They believed everything their guru said without using their
brains to question. Like any cult, Aum broke families, turned people to mindless zombies, gobbled up the money of
its members into the organization and tried to steal land.
Our guru cults are relatively unsophisticated compared to cults like these. Ram Rahim was a tractor driver before
he came the Dera chief and did not have any signi cant education. So he mostly only managed to mesmerize
poorly educated people. But looking at twitter, he seems to have some skilled people as followers as well. How
does this happen? When one places themselves in an information bubble, even the most absurd things sound
reasonable.
Jaggi does have excellent english skills and is gifted in rhetoric – he may not have any substance in what he says,
but we can all agree that everything stupid (and he has a lot of stupid stu to say) sounds awesome when he says it
– great voice, language, structure and delivery, but much of it falls like a house of cards when given a minute of
critical scrutiny, so his followers have to resort to “perceive” (be a good tape recorder),-but-don’t-judge mantras,
because this stu can’t stand to any critical judgment.
The most outrageous lies that can be invented will nd believers if a man only tells them with all his might – Mark
Twain.
Unlike Aum, he does not have to wage a war against the state because in our country, because thanks to the short-
sightedness of our politicians (forget about which party, they all have to chase vote banks), the state tries to
kowtow to cult leaders, gives awards etc. Like the Aum leader, the ISHA leader claims his followers can develop
super-powers and that he already has them. He says many of his followers already have the powers to heal the sick
and predict the future.
youtube. com/watch?v=S_2qwjFtUNU
Jaggi fans, do you think you have already have super-powers? Or do you think you will be able to in the future if
only you stayed longer with ISHA? Jaggi seems to be crafty here. He seems to know that his followers really don’t
have anything of the sort. He seems to just want them to feel awesome for forking their money over, because he
says he will kick anyone who actually tests their powers out and magically remove their spirituality with a
vengeance. Apparently, healing people is just a cheap trick according to him. Really? Curing a ward full of sick kids
dying of cancer is a cheap trick? What di erence does it make to life?
Here is the Aum guy purporting super-powers in a TV-anime style propaganda video in the 90s. TV anime was cool
then, especially for Japan. Now it is Youtube for us.
youtube. com/watch?v=IVnscHsPfR4
20+ years later, we have Jaggi’s internet brigade working overtime on social media trying to give an illusion that
there is consensus that this guy who says he has magical rudrakshas to sell that “are smarter than you” and can
detect imaginary poisons and leaves, that tantra is not a superstition but totally real, that cold corpses with clotted
blood and decaying tissues (brain dies in minutes without oxygen at room temperature, there is nothing left to
bring back after hours) can be magically brought back to life, that atoms yield to meditation etc etc.. is somehow a
wise philosopher and not a routine cult leader taking India back so that it has no chance to succeed in the rapidly
evolving scienti c world of tomorrow, just so he can make money – now that is a cynical materialist. People like him
will make an Africa out of us when we need to wake up like China.
Ravi
With regards to Rajneesh aka Osho. I think Shanmugam has done a great job showing how Jaggi borrows from him
without attribution (one could say: plagiarizes). But Rajneesh also did not come up with any of his teachings
himself. Much of that is familiar stu to anyone who is familiar with liberal arts course work. Rajneesh just made a
salad out of it and sounded profound when he really wasn’t.
The real surprise for me is why no one in India seems to talk about what Rajneesh has really done. Earlier I posted
about Aum Shinrikyo, a guru cult, which conducted the largest bio-terror attack in Japan. Who conducted the largest
bio-terrorist attack in US? Rajneesh’s cult.
slate.
com/blogs/atlas_obscura/2014/01/09/the_largest_bioterror_attack_in_us_history_began_at_taco_time_in_the_dalles.
html
Process that a bit. Slowly. The largest bio-terrorist attack on US soil was conducted not by an islamic terrorist, but
by an Indian, as a guru-cult at that. The only lucky thing was that no one actually died. However 751 fell sick. And
this was just a trial run. When truth came to light, an year later, Rajneesh escaped and denied involvement, but his
right-hand, Ma Sheela, who was convicted, insists that she did it with his support.
It is to the credit of Americans to not have painted Indians as whole, with a broad brush after these shenanigans.
We have swept this embarrassment under the carpet. But Oregon remembers. US remembers. While normal
Indians in US work hard as engineers, doctors, academics, CEOs etc, who muddies the name of India? A “spiritual”
guru. A guru who loved Rolls Royces. He had 74 of them.
oregonlive. com/rajneesh/index.ssf/1985/07/rajneesh_followers_amass_ eet.html
And we still don’t call him out. We wonder how Ram Rahim was successful as a bling-guru. Well, he wasn’t the rst
and he certainly won’t be the last. When will we actually expect our so called god-men to actually be ascetic and
ego-less.
How about Europe? This is how Vice news covered Jaggi’s visit to London
vice. com/en_uk/article/5gax8q/sadhguru-isha-cult-london
Our export gurus don’t cast India in a good light and are a blight on our image. Their fanatics in social media,
posting english comments, in full world-view, come o as brain-washed. Yet, Jaggi portrays himself as some great
philosopher who is going to teach India how to be India.
Yet, despite all evidence that these mega-gurus and god-men are nothing but egotistical, conniving manipulators of
minds, we as a society still treat the pretenders with reverence and forget our true gurus, the unglamorous men
and women in our schools and universities who taught us science, math and everything else. We replaced guru
devo bhava with mega-guru devo bhava.
R Surve
October 25, 2017 at 11:47 am
I agree with all that Ravi says about Jaggi and Rajneesh. But Ravi himself is a bit similar to Jaggi! He wants us all to
put him on a pedestal: “We in Science …”. There is a hierarchy: Nobel Laureates, those like Ravi who are almost at
their level, etc., down to us ordinary mortals. Ravi tells us the truth and we learn it.
Ravi
@R Surve
Yeah, good luck trying to tie me to Jaggi. I work at a research center with an excellent track record of producing
science. I consider myself very average compared to people at work. Working here is a very humbling experience.
When I say “We in science”, I obviously mean that everything I say is (or should be) rather mundane knowledge to
anyone who has education in science (and that I claim no special positions). Jaggi obviously has no science
education beyond his high school. He has much to learn before sermonizing on this topic. That is the entire point of
the article. To those of us who studied science for decades, he sounds like an idiot.
You can say there is a hierarchy. In fact, I would say there are many hierarchies – one for each major eld, at least.
No one is an expert on everything. I don’t have a physics PhD. So unless I can solve the said equations, I should not
lecture against the consensus of the community of theoretical physicists about what those equations say about
matter or anything else. There is no shame for me that I always have to learn the truth from the said experts and
will never have anything to add. I am very much an “ordinary mortal” with respect to competence in this area. The
question is when will Jaggi recognize this?
If one has not studied Biology past high school, it is highly unlikely that they understand what medical research is,
just by reading newspaper reports on medical research.
If you haven’t studied evolutionary biology, don’t try to sound smart with a creationist argument. It looks silly. First,
get up to speed on where the evidence stands, from primary literature, then enter the debate.
If you don’t have any education in chemistry, perhaps talking about the non-existent “memory e ect of water” is a
bad idea.
If you have not studied astronomy or psychiatry, perhaps you should recognize yourself as an “ordinary mortal”
who does not know much on whether the moon e ects the mind.
Science does not exclude anyone. But expect to be called out for foolishness if one talks without bothering to
acquire minimal competencies that are open to all.
Jaggi does have a competence. By all means, let him lecture on english literature. No one will have an issue – except
other people who study literature, if he steps over a competency by the standards of that eld. But I hear they are
rather lax about it.
xkcd. com/451/
Ravi
@R Surve
The funny thing is, my entire post above can be surmised by Jaggi’s own unoriginal quote. He says stu to sound
profound but clearly does not follow himself. I actually completely agree with the quote below. Building a cult is
about saying a few actual truths and mixing in a whole lot of lies (as How cults work video puts it). I hear a lot of
stu from JV that I can agree with, all that I recognize from elsewhere – nothing original. But it is the interspersed
breath-taking ignorance that shows his real intellectual depth.
“Stop bullshitting yourself. Learn to say “I do not know”. What is wrong with that? I do not know carries a
tremendous possibility. The moment you destroy “I do not know” you destroy all possibilities of knowing. The very
longing to know you destroy. Confusion is better than stupid conclusions. In confusion, there is still a possibility. In
stupid conclusion, there is no possibility.” – Jaggi
How about JV saying I don’t know anything about prana types, water-memory, tantra, bosons, atoms, psychiatry,
solar ares, eclipses etc. etc. rather than “bullshitting” (his words) about it. This entire article and forum thread is
about Jaggi talking BS about things he has no clue about.
And it isn’t his own original wisdom. It an old and popular saying, much better put by:
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” – Daniel J. Boorstin
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” – Mark Twain
And it likely goes further back than that.
According to Shanmugam, Jaggi also got this from Rajneesh as the intermediary.
As for your pedestal comment, don’t put people on a pedestal. Put the proven processes on a pedestal – critical
thinking, rational thought and the scienti c method. They can yield results for anyone, including this 9 year old girl
who applied them and at 11, went on to become the youngest author in a peer-reviewed journal. When Jaggi
attacks rational thought and belittles science, he is de-educating people from what little they received in school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNoRxCRJ-Y0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa
Jaggi likes to say, people don’t have to believe him, they should test it themselves.
Now of all the 5 million Jaggi followers, did even ONE ADULT get up and say, Now Mr. Jaggi, that Rudraksha claim
sounds fantastical and does not t with the science I learned, I think I will test it. Did they even get a wisp of that
idea?
Critical thinking is the rst casualty (if it was ever there, that is) within the manipulative frameworks of cults. Even
an estimated 80K nurses in a developed country believed in this BS. What chance do JV acolytes have? He knows he
won’t get a peep out of them because they don’t know the rst thing about what testing means.
But even the little girl did not have statistical expertise. So she got help, just like most scientists who get a
statistician to review their protocols. What was important was that she had an actual critical mind to question,
something that cult followers already lack or quickly surrender.
Suresk Kumar
Not only science..
Jaggi Vasudev doesn’t understand history either: https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/06/17/was-shiva-

the-real-adiyogi-or-is-that-sadhgurus-nonsense/ (don’t miss the comments)
Ravi
I will be busy for a couple of weeks.
I think this is an excellent summary of cult psychology. You can nd more extensive coverage in books on the topic,
but this is concise and covers a great many key features.
What Is A Cult and How Does It Work? (Margaret Singer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bRBFhMEQFk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Singer
Note the use of euphemistic terms. “Inner Engineering” should really be translated as “Psychological Manipulation”.
Note the use of hyperventilation, acid-base states (keto acidosis for instance causes euphoria) etc, the e ects of
over-meditation and chanting – although not covered in depth.. and gradual progression in hooking with
increasingly more expensive courses and expectation to stay with the organization and dedicate years.
All this study predates Jaggi (she likely never heard of him). She died in 2003. Much of this literature emerged from
the 70s onwards when US was increasingly under assault by cults. Jaggi is just following the standard cult leader
template.
One small exception: I actually insist on the terms: zombie and automaton, based on my limited subject, but very
extended observations. What do I mean by that? I don’t mean that they have an empty look in their eyes and
stumble as they walk (they were engineers and were able to function in jobs, although the cult took its toll – they
were no longer keeping themselves up-to-date). By that I mean that I could elicit certain behaviors almost as if they
have been programmed. The conversations that follow are very predictable, along the lines of the term she uses –
“closed system of logic”, making them very robotic, as if on auto-mode. Because they were conditioned to self-
censor, they could not obtain new arguments (this was a widely observed behavior that the ex-cultists of the cult I
observed also note) because researching critical literature was considered poisonous . And the ow of arguments
was almost Pavlovian, so much so that I quickly got tired of listening to tape-recorder patterns.
But she is the scholar on this, not me. She likely has a more detailed exposition in her books.
Shanmugam
I have compiled an ebook with everything that I wrote about Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev and have posted it here. :
https://archive.org/details/IsSadhguruJaggiVasudevAConman
It is completely unbiased. I have also dedicated a chapter regarding this Nirmukta article. I hope this book will raise
the level of skepticism in people and stop blind followings to some extent.
FirstShelli
I see you don’t monetize your website, don’t waste your tra c, you can earn extra bucks every month because
you’ve got high quality content.
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Keruph
Nice job.. Even I have a very less tolerance level to BS
Ravi
The cult of Jim Jones
Rajneesh infected 900+ people. Here is a cult leader who actually killed as many people.
This cult is important to me since it was the rst cult I read about and the worst in terms of the deaths it in icted. I
was only about 10 or 11 or so when our local newspaper did a Sunday feature on it – it was a disturbing article that
was one among the early in uences that set up my BS detectors. I permanently remembered the name of
Congressman Ryan (Leo Ryan) who I saw as a model politician, one who gave his life in the service of his
constituents.
Jim Jones started as a routine Christian priest. He gradually began to transform his congregation into a personality
cult – People’s temple. He spoke of economic justice, racial integration and other contemporary social issues in US
in the 60s. They did good work – desegregating communities and won awards for it. It was far more di cult work
than tree planting drives and river campaigns. If you were to ask anyone with modern views in this period, they
would have said he was an open-minded spiritualist, a good guy. As his ego grew, he claimed he was the
reincarnation of Gandhi, Jesus and Buddha. Other times, he said he was an agnostic or an atheist.
He set up a commune and moved it to a forested part of Guyana as Jonestown. He pitched it as a Utopia where
people could lead spiritual lives, but e ectively made people into farm slaves. He con scated their passports. He
gave them no time to think – prayer meetings would go late into night only for the followers to have to wake up
early for farm chores. Cults always try to keep people busy with no time to think on their own.
When complaints started coming in (many from their friends and relatives who lost people to his cult) that people
were being prevented from leaving, a US congressmen, Leo Ryan, ew to Guyana to assess the situation. Jones kept
a lid on the situation and kept pleasant appearances. Ryan was prepared for such exertion of in uence. He took
independent interviews. Several followers con ded that they wanted to leave. One left a note, indicating fear of
suppression. Ryan tried to be as smooth as he could, trying to hint that he will write a favorable report saying that
the percent of people who wanted to leave was small. But Jones felt he failed. His followers launched a movie-style
attack from a tractor-trailer on the plane on the runway. Ryan was killed, along with several others. While one plane
was disabled, the other escaped and brought help, while the rest found cover in the jungle.
Jones knew his time as a cult leader would come to an end. He decided to end everyone as well. He told his
followers to commit suicide, giving them cyanide mixed in a avored drink (Flavor Aid was a knock-o of the US
product, Kool Aid – like Rasna in India). “Drinking the Kool Aid” would become an expression after to describe
gullible followers of any leader who do not think critically anymore and just believe whatever they are told
regardless of how absurd it is. Unimaginable scenarios: Mothers poisoned their own children. A father, a high-level
cult leader told to ee with a large amount of cash, failed to stop the poisoning of his own child in time, as he
watched his wife and child die and broke down. Some 300 children died that day, along with some 600 adults.
Apparently, this did not come out of the blue. Jones had been fascinated by death in his childhood and killed
animals to hold their funerals. He already made his followers practice mass-suicide on a couple of occasions as a
“loyalty test” and tested the poison on pigs. To his enthralled followers, he was awless and was always right. But in
reality, he was a charismatic psychopath.
There are several books written about this cult and there are several Youtube videos of documentaries. Please look
them up. Keyword: Jonestown
I learnt this tidbit recently. Ryan’s daughter Shannon, of all people who should have known better, joined
Rajneesh’s cult. She insisted that Rajneesh, who had similar messianic delusions was nothing like Jim Jones. She
changed her name to Amrita Pritam. Cults change the followers names to remove them from their personality and
identity. She married within the cult. Cults also encourage that – makes it easy to retain members.
people .com/archive/the-daughter-of-jonestown-victim-leo-ryan-argues-that-her-gurus-sect-is-not-a-cult-vol-15-no-
6/
Quote: Asked if there is a limit to her devotion, Pritam replies: “It is impossible that Bhagwan would ever ask people
to kill anyone. But if he asked me to do it, I don’t know. I love and trust him very much. To me he is God. He sees
more clearly than I do. But if I want to say no to Bhagwan, I’ll say no.”
She says: “I don’t know” for a question with a clear answer of no. Cult followers rarely want to say no to the cult
leader. They believe they still have free will in the matter. But thanks to the language games played in a cult, that
never happens. See Margaret Singer’s talk.
I wonder how she felt when she found out that Rajneesh’s cult was running a bio-terror lab and infected 900+
people, just because they didn’t want them to vote. Outsiders are seen as less human than members of the cult
and can be dispensed with as necessary for the cult’s goals.
Vijay
Ravi, I think you are more charismatic and better in words than Jaggi Vasudev. But you could be as wrong in your
most of the claims as you claim Jagdish wrong. You have also not proven your eligibility to comment by your formal
education; I mean you disquali ed him for not being a science student.
Please don’t think that I am an Isha follower or a ‘Jaggi Bhakt’ or I am trying to do a dual with you here. I am not as
good as you and many others are here in expressing. I am neither a science graduate nor a theologist, nor even an
undisputed arts student. I am only using this as a opportunity to be part of this discussion on the basis of my ability
of reading and writing and i am writing this after reading and understanding every comment in my mental capacity.
I understand and agree that most (i say most for being humble and politically correct, I wont be surprised to know
that all are same) of the ‘godmen’ are fooling around. I agree that the standard of Guru’s IQ is determined by the
society and not the other way round.
My curiosity and question is- are you typing all that in your precious time to aware people that the gurus are
running a market to take away your brain? if no, then what? if yes, then what di erence will it make? because i
mostly believe that all are conman. I believe Jaggi is making is political alliance with B.J.P. and in a very cunning way
he is making foundations for alignment with Congress as well. He did it in future as well. But I still listen to him. I
mean to say I know he is not an enlightened one as he says (in my understanding there is no enlightenment, only
intelligence, sensibility and smartness exist), but I still listen to him. Reason?
Because i want to know things which i don’t want!
I started listening Rajneesh like most. Then came English guru Jaggi. May be its not your case but those who were
schooled in my way, those who did not study well in schools, or ok those who were not honest were their then
education, or those who cant tolerate painful ways of learning by reading lot of books when a precised and easy
Google is there, for then the storytellers like Osho and Jaggis are important, at least till then they know they are
cheating.
I don’t know how many read it what you say, how many agree, and even after agreeing with you as in my case…
how many can stop taking interest in them!
Once again I want to say that you wrote very beautifully and I have a regard for you as well like i have for many.
Vijay
Ravi, Vijay,
I can’t say i am the real Ravi, but I used to answer to Ravi as Vijay or answering Ravi.
I never listen to jaggi, rajneesh or any other gurus from 1800 AD ownwards. I became religious following religion of
my family.
Vijay
I can’t say i am the real Ravi
my bad
I mean vijay
VJ
Vijay, I had in my mind that there is another Vijay here but…. well let me try my name as VJ to avoid confusion.
“I never listen to jaggi, rajneesh or any other gurus from 1800 AD ownwards. I became religious following religion of
my family.”…. You were schooled in a rather responsible environment i think. There are schools where teachers
dont teach, they themselves are not educated enough, students who dont study are only beaten, and much more.
Its probably not the case of corruption but competence of teachers, It is probably the case of corruption as well of
education ministry.
But whatever, those kids are grown up now, some failed, some succeeded, some only passed. Most of then are
reasonably educated only. i mean to say we have largely whole society of that level of education. you listen to the
MLA, MPs, ministers, local leaders. You go to villages, towns and check their brain conditioning. You are and
exception Vijay, i am talking about examples. They were only people who liked Rajneesh, Asharam, Modi, Kejriwal.
Society is largely conditioned to like them and many new, yet to come I believe.
Ravi
@VJ
I have not disquali ed him for not being a science student. You could say I disquali ed him, in part, for not realizing
the obvious fact that he isn’t. Not knowing science in detail is ne. But ..
a.) Saying crazy things isn’t – if anyone promotes magical nonsense in the 21st century, they deserve to be laughed
at. That feedback is necessary to prevent crazyiness from spreading.
b.) Not being aware of his own ignorance. This is especially important when one claims wisdom. His hubris takes
him further away from enlightenment claims than even any average person.
I understand you trying to nd story tellers. And I don’t think you have joined his cult since you are able to see his
aws and ambitions. Compare that to someone who posted on Shanmugam’s blog something to the e ect of being
at the lotus feet of the guru. Or talking of magic enlightenment power passing through at mere touch – That is cult
talk. You did not do that.
I empathize with the reasons you provided. I agree that people have their vulnerabilities based on their
backgrounds that draws them closer to these gurus. Guru cults rise when the society is experiencing the turmoil of
change. Many eventually collapse and mainstream religion adjusts. We saw this with the Dera cult recently. The
Sikh institutions learnt the error of marginalizing some groups and are trying to mend. But there is a mess still
waiting to happen as the remaining cults run their course.
Finally, I don’t get why you (and Bala) think my posts are odd or wonder what motivates me to post. You do realize
this is a rationalist web site?! What else would you expect here? My views are simply normal rationalist viewpoints. I
don’t really have any special things to say beyond the way I say it. Go ahead and browse rationalist web sites from
any country. They will all sound like me or this site. The thing I don’t know is where the other rationalists are.
Perhaps they just went to Facebook and I don’t do social media.
Ravi
@VJ
All that said, it matters who you listen to. On Youtube, you can nd Jaggi. But you can also nd far smarter people
than him, speaking in accessible terms. You just need to make a slightly harder e ort in nding them. Youtube
algorithms won’t know what to suggest to you if you don’t try.
I recommend listening to proper professors online doing mundane classes, rather than gurus. I don’t think they are
that hard to listen to.
Here, try one:

Yale: Philosophy of Death (it should appeal to spiritual types)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEA18FAF1AD9047B0
I am not sure if this covers later (after the scienti c revolution) philosophers on the topic, especially Heidegger, but
otherwise seems to be a good course to start with.
Unlike with ISHA, you don’t have to pay anything. They won’t market you more expensive courses. There is no time
frame to nish it. There is no con dentiality agreement. Unlike Jaggi’s courses, you can go back to them any
number of times. You will learn a lot more concepts. You can be sure that these are not anyone’s personal
opinions, but well-debated ideas for thousands of years.
Finish this and then listen to Jaggi and tell me how it felt. Education is not a pre-requisite for these pursuits. It is
rather a result of them.
This is the source material (in a general sense) for gurus like Rajneesh (which Jaggi borrows second-hand). They
take this and twist it badly with their half-baked understanding and sound profound. It is better to go directly to the
source. Again, it isn’t as hard as you think. It may take a bit of getting used to though.
VJ
Thank you Ravi, for understanding me in-spite of wrong English I wrote (I saw later).
And thanks for the links. A bit of like those I also listened to and probably that is the reason I could see the aws in
Jaggi and Osho. When you hear too much again and again from someone you start seeing the shy substance
mostly. Like you will nd many sentences (paragraphs rather) Jaggi speaks with same rhythm, same accent, same
smile and same laughter amount in between. A person over owing with wisdom should not sound so empty! A
point comes when the guru, his books, his discourses, his ideas…. start telling you that you are still there where you
started, at least in the domain of spirituality. However in many aspects you are moved away. You kind of know that
perhaps the guru and his words are not that worth. And the meaning of life you were seeking is equally far. Its like
getting treatment from a wrong doctor who is determined to retain you as a ‘patient’.
And they are easy, no doubt, understanding Osho and understanding Albert Camus is not same.
I don’t know if I could touch the knowledge (whatever it is) I have now had not the Osho and the Isha well marketed
and easily available. May be I would have searched something really worth in their absence, may be they were
stepping stones. You can not bypass all the steps always, I think.
Now, in my understanding I do not have that dream of knowing the ‘meaning of life’, because i think its a useless
and more importantly an unful llable dream. A speck of dust can not feel and know the universe being a speck, I
feel so. I am not disappointed about it at all.
It is not that I feel free from the cult trap or hopeless being in nowhere zone. It is only I was reading a book which
now i think is not worth completing.
i will read something else now of course.
And I don’t understand anyhow that you are odd, Ravi. I don’t know what other rationalists’ web sites are like. Yes, I
still don’t know what motivates you. May be one day I will understand.
Thank you once again, especially for the link you shared and for being humble
Shanmugam
This explains the Rudraksha trick: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ideomotor_e ect
“A classic example of the ideomotor e ect in action dates back to the use of a held pendulum as far back as 371 CE.
An operator would hold the pendulum and attribute certain meanings depending on which direction the pendulum
would swing. Priests used this technique to channel divine messages. Alchemists used it to determine the
composition of an object. The results were very convincing, until double-blind trials failed to yield the same results.”
Ravi
@VJ
 Now, in my understanding I do not have that dream of knowing the ‘meaning of life’
“Nobody ever gures out what life is all about, and it doesn’t matter. – Richard Feynman
You read Camus. You are further along than I initially imagined. You know then that the “meaning of life” is very
personal, not universal. It is whatever you choose it to be for you. That is more or less the liberating essence of
existentialism.
I think the reason why people fall for these gurus in India is that most are not introduced to abstract thinking. We
go for skill based courses, as citizens of developing countries should and ignore things like philosophy.
The rst time one encounters abstract thought, it is a heady experience for anyone. A professor (a real guru) is
honest and does not claim to own all the ideas but states that he is only the communicator of thinkers before him.
These mega-gurus instead claim that these are all their original ideas. This itself shows their dishonesty as well as
their need to seek approval as a wise man – the very petty things we expect an enlightened person to grow beyond.
 Yes, I still don’t know what motivates you

Nothing di erent from what motivates any other poster here or anywhere.
@Shanmugam
Good link. You can actually see Jaggi giving his beads a little movement in one of the Sad Guru videos.
Raj
January 27, 2018 at 12:05 pm
Interesting conversation of pro/con’s related to Isha foundation, in any cult the problem starts when people start
believing blindly, with the intellectual they pose at that time.
On reading some negative news of the foundation, started viewing his videos, really very nice comparison of
ancient science to modern science like many was mesmerised by his talk and comparisons of two worlds :), as
viewing more videos of him and articles like above triggered my subconscious mind and got me back to
consciousness. No man in universe cannot become a god(creator), they can only be a destroyer only a women is
creator she has the capabilities.
Siva is represented as re(destroyer) very nature of men, and women as sakthi (energy) creator. This basic things is
manipulated by many according to their need. Another the union this people speak is totally di erent, the idol of
linga represent union of nothing but men and a women which is child birth, this was very much need that ancient
time as there was less number of human so they treated the unions as most precious thing which should be
respected.
Viewing/reading various people ideas is good but cant get into it since one that suits him will not suit me, so I need
to grab as much information from it with my intellectual take what is needed and leave other, do not follow blindly.
From his own video Yogo means union of body and soul (mind), the basic simple logic is by simple stretching,
bending we can make the blood ow in all part of the system (body), naturally it make every part of the body active.
Next make the mind align to body by meditation (controlling mind work), when both get aligned we can excel in our
life.
Note: He is far better that others, had got many useful information and interpretations from his speech that need
to be respected/appreciated
Ravi
January 27, 2018 at 10:13 pm
@Raj
 really very nice comparison of ancient science to modern science

The point of the article is demonstrating that Jaggi is a complete ZERO when it comes to understanding science. He
is completely un t to talk about ancient vs. modern or even east vs. west. He has no in-depth understanding. He is
just recycling platitudes which sound wonderful to those who have not heard these before.
 like many was mesmerized by his talk
Yes, his chief skill is making even utter nonsense to appear profound. His chief skill is mesmerizing by rhetoric, not
content or insights.
 the basic simple logic is by simple stretching, bending we can make the blood ow in all part of the system
(body), naturally it make every part of the body active.
The whole point of doing painstaking scienti c studies is that this kind of simpleton logic doesn’t work in reality.
Take Shirshasana for instance: If you do headstands all day, everyday, your IQ won’t shoot-up. Your brain already
gets all the blood it needs. It already has mechanisms in place to make sure of that. Increasing blood ow further
by forcing it with gravity isn’t safe.
Same with other parts of the body. If any tissue is not getting enough blood/oxygen, it sends out various chemical
signals that initiate laying down of new circulatory channels. Exercise also signals the same. There is no evidence to
indicate that doing it the Yoga way does it more than plain exercise.
Unfortunately, we don’t like nuance. We like things to be packaged nicely with simplicity… with a mystical bow on
top, even if it is complete make-believe with no evidence.
 had got many useful information and interpretations from his speech that need to be respected/appreciated
His interpretations are often half-baked and misguiding. Cult leaders always need to be looked at with suspicion,
not respect. Shower respect by the millions, even an initially humble person could get some megalomania. In a
sense, people who show unwarranted respect build the psyche of these cult leaders.
Following mesmerizing cult leaders always sounds great at rst and only brings hurt later (after one is sucked into
abusive/exploitative organizations). All cult victims think it is harmless at rst. Then they commit themselves to the
said organizations, separate themselves from their friends and family, lose money etc. In they end, they do not
even nd peace in the said organizations even though they are conditioned to mindlessly say that they have. But
their dysfunctional behavior gives them away.
 so I need to grab as much information from it with my intellectual take what is needed and leave other, do
not follow blindly.
Maybe. But the chief problem is not looking for insights from the respective experts, the real ones.
If you want to know about the body, ask Biologists. If you want to compare civilizations, ask Historians. If you want
to know about Physics, ask Physicists. Jaggi just muddies everything and coats himself with it. His agenda is to sell
himself as enlightened so that he can market you ISHA programmes, cheaper ones at rst… and trying to hook you
with pricier ones later. This is the standard tactic of all the cult leaders I wrote about earlier.
Why try to use a cult leader as a source? Why all this trouble about ltering his biases and agenda? Garbage in,
Garbage out. We all over-value our intellectual capacity to see through nonsense. The better strategy is to not treat
those who spout garbage as sources.
Proper academic sources are already available. Nothing he says is original. You might say, well, not everyone is
equipped for consuming academic content. I don’t believe that, but if one is not equipped to listen to a subject-
matter expert, that one is probably also not equipped to see through the hidden agendas of a cult leader. Taking
good and leaving out the bad is incredibly hard. Almost everyone will swallow things whole.
VJ
Dear Ravi, (I am using ‘dear’ out of a ection and not because of daily habit of starting an email with). All you said is
correct and true to me but you know what, since our last comments, I am continuously thinking something similar
to your last line (Almost everyone will swallow things whole). I assume, had I not read Osho and liked him, I would
not have liked Jagdish as well. Nor Tagore, because Rajneesh mentioned him many a time and I could come across
Geetanjali. Nor Dostoevsky and others for the same reason. And nor other Nobel laureates (for my lter to select a
book somehow became the Nobel prize). Yes I used to read many others without any one’s recommendations as
such. But I seriously believe that believing on these gurus whole heatedly made to see wholly. I don’t know what
course my life would have taken without them. I cant con dently assume that. I know among my fellow friends who
never treaded onto these steps, there are who going deeply and deeply into the cult bore. There are ritualistic types
too, who believed and do believe very moderately.
I here, only want to ask that isn’t all those are the obstacles ( quite obviousness of course) that help people learn
how to cross them!
Ravi
@VJ
I understand that Jaggi and Osho turned out to be a starting point for you to explore things that you think you
would not have explored otherwise (that is a possibility, not a necessary case). And because of this, you see good in
them. I understand your perspective.
However, I still do not think they are good starting points to recommend to anyone. Nor does this immunize the
mega-gurus from critique when they spout nonsense.
You have navigated to better thinkers, in spite of the cult rhetoric packaged along with the references in their books
and talks that gave you the leads to further exploration. Shanmugam seems to have done the same.
It is unfortunate that many of us have not been exposed in schools and colleges to great philosophical ideas and
thinkers and to the habits of exploring intellectual ideas on our own. We had to learn these on our own. It is
because of this lack of proper exposure that the cult leaders appear so profound and hijack our authentic curiosity
to know more, often with their personal and stunted catch-all theologies and theories of everything.
 But I seriously believe that believing on these gurus whole heatedly made to see wholly.
My position is that this whole-hearted belief in the “guru” (ANY guru, even those who I consider REAL gurus, the
academic ones) is a harmful idea. Obviously, this notion of teacher-veneration (which I argue, should not be
extended to these mega-gurus) has deep cultural roots in our traditions. We have held onto this notion for millinea.
At best, it might be OK for a child during basic education to hold that position, but no more (and even that can be
argued against). I openly (and very politely) disagreed with my own teachers (whom I held in very high regard) in my
school when they got theistic or dogmatic. I was there to learn physics or biology from them, not their personal
philosophies. I always felt this was the right thing to do. “Whole” intellectual submission is never a good idea, even if
the teacher is a genius. Ask, debate and certainly consider their personal views (consensus views are a di erent
matter – they have the intellectual backing of the entire humanity, not just a single person and a school or college
level training is usually inadequate to challenge them), but don’t just submit. As for mega-gurus, they are loaded
with personal, non-mainstream opinions that they never intellectually defend against other intellectuals. They just
pander to lightly read crowds. That should ring alarm bells. These aren’t intellectuals, they are merely pretenders.
This concept that ANY person who explains the whole world to you (and told to take it on faith or as his own
personal premises) is most often likely to lead to exploitation. The knowledge of humanity is now vast. Even people
who spent decades in their elds today do not fully understand their own elds. This is normal. No one should be
believed “wholly”. But why do we love whole-theory peddlers? In a psychology sense, we are trying to regress to the
secure state of our childhood. When we were children, we could always count on our parents to have an answer to
our every question. We liked that safety and certainty. But as we grow and our questions become more complex,
we cannot realistically expect that. Yet we pine for an individual who will declare with all con dence and gusto that
he/she can (BTW, these aren’t my personal insights, but those of cult psychologists like Margaret Singer, experts
relevant to these areas). When that individual comes with some insights that we do not have, we mistakenly
assume with this bias, that they have insights about everything. Critical thinking gradually falls way side and a cult
leader and the victim are born.
You might have defended your intellect well. But that does not seem to be the case with Jaggi’s acolytes. My critique
is for them to see the other (dark) side of this, not so much for you.
VJ
Thank you Ravi for understanding my perspective and for the quickly responding which you always do here. I also
feel Shanmugam’s case similar to me.
Actually I am not advocating those con gurus by saying that they became my guides anyhow. It is like someone
determines to never drink alcohol in life after seeing his father drunk everyday. That father is anyhow the core
reason but not worthy of regard.
I was tossing a ‘what if…’ case only. I am in a way grateful to life not to gurus that I was able to see their that side
and this side also. Its a worthy experience.
‘Whole heartedly…’ perhaps I wrote it wrong, I don’t know actually how to put it, when I used to read Rajneesh, I was
also interested in how did ‘he’ learn it, therefore his references and the poems he used to recite were important for
me almost equally. Even today I often buy those books listed in bibliography.
I didn’t surrender anything but yes I was very much impressed. I can recall that I used to miss his presence on the
planet, for I believed he was the enlightened being. I liven in the pang that my meditation is not ‘happening’ and
much more. Then came Jaggi, his narrations, his English, and his (in a way) extension of the subject which Osho had
left midway (or confused me because confusion is the only possibility). I was more than impressed again. This is
what I said, whole heartedly.
And yes, I am listening to the Shelly Kagan. They is very brilliant and sharp.
Ravi, with your due permission, can you be contacted? How?

Why? Because someone who answers my questions with such a commitment, I feel like keeping in touch with him
more than virtually.
Thank you.
Ravi
@VJ
I am thrilled to hear that you are enjoying Shelly Kagan. I hope it develops into a habit as it did in me.
One of my hobbies is listening to liberal arts lectures from unarguably accomplished academics, as I travel, exercise
etc, when I am otherwise not reading. I feel this has bene ted me.
I must respectfully decline breaking my anonymity though. I would have said the same to anyone else, not just you.
I still have some recollection of the essay: “Advantages of Anonymity” by R.K. Narayan, that we read in school.
VJ
@ Ravi. Hahaha… I would not have asked for it probably, had I also read R.K. Narayan in my school or outside.
Its ne Ravi, I,of course understand your point.
Yes, I have developed this kind of habit of listening to anything (mostly light dose), while driving or designing. I
started with Rajneesh though many years ago. Then some interviews of my favourite writers and academics
lectures. Although for Shelly Kagan, I need some uninterrupted environment comparatively.
KAVITA
TO THE AUTHOR,
GO GET A LIFE !!
KAVITA
stop maligning JV, he is doing what needs to be done, can say the same about you.!
Sadaryavarta
Hi,
fail to understand why ppl wish to push thr pov on each other
Being a student of physics have seen, studied di erent principles (from school to PG & research days) evolving &
proving previous theories absurd I also agree JV has never criticized science vehemently rather has openly
appreciates, enjoys di erent technological advantages science has o ered to mankind
lets understand this land has vast & great mythological track record which has opened door ways beyond realm of
5 senses time & again !!!
Yes ppl from both eld can bit more respectful of basic belief matrix of each other & keep exploring new dimension
whether through science OR spirituality
for betterment of mankind
Ravi
@Sadaryavarta
 fail to understand why ppl wish to push thr pov on each other
Why not ask Jaggi that? Why is he pushing his anti-science POV on his followers?
Being a student of physics have seen, studied different principles (from school to PG & research days)

evolving & proving previous theories absurd
Which theories in physics have been proved “absurd” since modern physics began? They have been re ned at best.
Einsteinian physics did not render Newtonian physics ABSURD. We still nd the former very useful.
In modern science, there are rarely absurd theories. In almost every case, it was the best available theories, given a
set of data and a set of analyses methods, vetted by the standards of the time. Reaching wrong conclusions in the
absence of inadequate data or tools is not absurd, it is normal and natural. Being asked to come to conclusions
with data yet unavailable is what is absurd.
You know what is absurd?
Absurd is Jaggi thinking that diseases are spread by miasma (his rudraksha sales pitch).
Absurd is Jaggi believing in Tantra.
Absurd is people believing that Jaggi’s wife went into Maha Samadhi.
Absurd is people thinking this self-absorbed guy with a king-size ego is somehow enlightened.
Even in the pre-scienti c era, bad theories were not “absurd”. In a world without a microscope, Miasmatic theory of
disease was not the that unreasonable (although one strictly did not need a microscope to disprove it). It is
however absurd to still hold on to it today as Jaggi does, when we can clearly see and measure the disease agents.
Even a child is expected to understand these things today.
 I also agree JV has never criticized science vehemently

Perhaps you should actually read the article in full and watch the videos before directly jumping to comments?
Nobody said he is criticizing science “vehemently”. He is belittling science “ ippantly”, science that he is completely
clueless about.
It may not matter if you or I do it thoughtlessly in conversation. But it very much matters when ANY public gure
does it.
Jaggi thinks with all the scienti c sophistication of a 17th century uneducated Indian, not a 21st century Indian. He
is that backward (not saying he is not crafty or that he is naive to other things, he is very good at that).
 lets understand this land has vast & great mythological track record which has opened door ways beyond
realm of 5 senses time & again !!!
Oh really? Please list what door ways those are.
There are no magic (meditation) “door ways” to Truth, as Jaggi promotes. The only door ways available are
naturalism, reason and empiricism. Supernaturalism always led to delusions. That is its track record.
It was science that went beyond our subjective senses. What his cult practices induce are very much subjective
experiences – small-scale, self(and group)-induced, neuro-electric phenomena that are similar to a temporal lobe
petit-mal epilepsy. You are not opening any new “door ways” to any objective Truth (but a change in subjective
perspective that helps some and harms others).
 ppl from both eld

Nice try at false equivalency. There are no “both” elds. Science is a eld. Jaggi nonsense is just cult talk.
If science is critical of the social evil and superstition of witch craft, you don’t say… now, now.. let both the “ elds”
talk with “respect” to each other. I am not exaggerating. This is literally a guy who says Tantra is real.
Stand up and call it for what it is – superstitious nonsense that costs lives. You have a constitutional obligation to
have scienti c temper.
 can bit more respectful of basic belief matrix
Science is not a “belief matrix”. It has tons of objective data and analysis to back that up. Jaggi’s cult is entirely a
belief matrix of a cult. It is unfortunate that you have been de-educated to this level.
 keep exploring new dimension whether through science OR spirituality for betterment of mankind
You better mankind by applying your education, not wasting time in his cult. Cult followers are always told that they
are bettering humanity. In reality, they are gradually sucked dry of their funds and social life by the cult.
Look, this is Jaggi’s bushiness model. It is the same thing with all cults. He wants more followers. They all do.
All cult leaders have some bull crap ideas to sell. In principle, you already are supposed to have received enough
education to think critically to see through all this bull crap. Unfortunately, most don’t absorb it enough in school
thanks to our system of rote.
Jaggi’s task here is two-fold: First, (after capturing your attention using Philosophy and other liberal arts material
that a STEM major in India does not read) he belittles science. This encourages you to not apply your education to
question his utter nonsense that he masks in a sea of truisms. Next, he elevates his ideas to magical levels. He lies
to his followers that they will get or already have super powers. If he has not yet convinced you that you have
special healing powers, he at least seems to have convinced you that you have special senses.
You have just fallen for this one-two punch of manipulation.
I really don’t have anything against Jaggi per se, just against the whole cult mindset, since I had to live with people in
a cult.
 Being a student of physics have seen, studied different principles (from school to PG & research days)
One of people I lived with had a physics masters degree, just like you. He fell to a christian cult leader. Just like your
uninformed illusions about our mythical past, the cult leader exploited his cultural ideas of biblical inerrancy. Once
the trust was gained and a “spiritual experience” (a so-called “getting saved” moment is not very unlike your
meditative experience, it is just induced by a di erent emotional means) was obtained, they are steered to become
slaves to the cult.
His life was sucked dry and he would insist that he was living the real life. The cult would tell them to relocate
wherever they needed to expand. They would spend all their spare money and savings on “training programs” and
retreats. They even got them to invest their savings in the cult’s business ventures. When they failed, they were told
to let it go. It altered their behavior so much that it came di cult for them to talk to anyone outside their cult for
extended periods.
I see cult leaders like Jaggi infecting India with the same harmful institutions. We should talk about cults, their
features, modus-operandi and outcomes. The only defense is being informed.
Ravi
@Sadaryavarta
Also note that critique on a web page is not considered “pushing” POV on others. Welcome to the Internet. We all
have critical opinions. There is at least a page for every opinion and at least one against it. Critical disagreement is
important. Being conditioned to saying only approving things results in information bubbles.
The cult I knew did this – If anyone disagreed with the cult leadership, they were told to “leave like a gentleman”. So
people in the cult were only bombarded with talk about how wonderful the cult and the leader were, since that was
what people were rewarded for saying. Problems were covered up, rather than discussed.
Things are di erent when it is done by a person who e ectively holds power/sway on followers like Jaggi. This is
more or less a captive audience. Note how rarely anyone in the audience questions Jaggi when he talks pseudo-
science and in the rare occasion that someone does, that person is immediately labeled with all sorts of
meaningless labels – for instance see comments on Burkha Dutt’s panel interview of Jaggi on Youtube
(h5OMNw4ARUQ) and head to the comments section. These are supposed to be the so-called “don’t judge, just
perceive” ISHA-ites? They can’t stand even the mildest group interview of their dear leader. See if you can count the
adjectives heaped on the interviewer just because she did not fawn over him – typical cult mentality. They can’t
even name what she should not have said.
If I say something nonsensical, no big deal – I have no power over you. But when a politician, teacher, boss,
“spiritual leader” or some other authority gure does it (and routinely at that), it becomes concerning. It is for the
society to push back in discourse.
R Surve
@Ravi
I guess my comment about you may have been a bit unfair. I agree with practically everything you’ve written
recently about cults and Jaggi. But I don’t agree that everything is subject to scienti c analysis and “burden of
proof”. That is a legal concept and so is “proof beyond reasonable doubt” (on which basis innocents have been
hanged). I think there MAY BE things beyond the scienti c method. We should be willing to admit that it MAY leave
some questions open (not satisfactory for a medical researcher, of course, but can’t be helped). Can you answer
that (come up with anything better than falling back on the burden of proof)? As someone mentioned above, a 19th
century scientist could assert that aircraft were impossible. We should use the scienti c method as far as possible
but not farther (does this paraphrase Einstein?).
You (and other readers) should look at Victor Zammit’s (downloadable) book “A lawyer presents the case for the
afterlife”. Also learn about Jose Silva’s work (Silva method, Silva Mind Control). I read that it is/was taught in some
American medical schools.
Sadaryavarta
Hi
there have been major di erence in past over when you say ” Einsteinian physics did not render Newtonian physics
ABSURD. We still nd the former very useful”
let me share unlike in a Newtonian world, the universe is not quite a constant, for the most part anyway. Taking a
look at the Lorentz Transformation using time as our variable:
t’=t/sqrt(1-((v^2)/(c^2)))
In this equation we see that Time and Velocity are variables because neither of them have a constant physical
value, like the speed of light “c”. Here we can see that the speed of light MUST be a constant in the universe. This
agrees with Newtonian physics, the speed of light being a constant, with time and length being di erent, this bit
obviously doesn’t agree with Newton.
Now you say re nement :)) as sophisticated term but
there have been huge mud slinging between believer of two groups which probably may never come out in open
domain for a commoner & its very common in scienti c community also…I can assure
Am not here to pass on judgement who is right or wrong…

the way you may quote 10 example against JV other side may quote 100 including past literature like SURYA
SIDHANTA ( 4th-5th BC) which are incredible keeping in mind limitation of science & tech of that era !!!
so many scriptures so many structures world across have huge science ( stories) behind them to ponder over
countering thought that its only recent historical inroads of science which made this universe more logical
I am not in or against JV but rm believer that there has to be di erent dimensions beyond realm of modern day
science when you see Kailasa temple or Balbek in lebnon OR any other similar structure right from its architect to
civil work to di erent alignments are mind boggling either science of that era was too eveloved OR they have
dimensions beyond modern day science !!!
Avoiding urge to destroy di erent theory & pushing own ahead that too in manner which may not be very civilized (
you may appreciate ferocious lingo used if not derogatory by some of frnds even here ::)) !!! is my concern, which
unfortunately happening in other parts of society too
let JV may continue his zest for spirituality & mother science keep discovering new technology for betterment of
mankind is all have to say
no more arguments friend
have a productive debate
tks
R Surve
@Sadaryavarta
Special relativity di ers from Newtonian mechanics at high speeds where the latter is inaccurate. But for designing
a car or aircraft or even a spacecraft, if you start with relativistic equations you will end up with their Newtonian
approximations before you do any calculations. In other words, Relativity is irrelevant for this purpose. General
Relativity was considered to have no applications for a long time and most physicists didn’t learn it. But it is used in
GPS.
All that mudslinging (most of it, except for a few people who are ignored by the world) ended decades ago,
probably 100 years back. It is totally irrelevant now.
Ravi
@R Surve
Sure, you are also not R S Chakravarti? You sure sound exactly like him. :-).
Sure, science can’t answer everything. It only can when it has the required data and the necessary methods. If
either is missing, it won’t be able to. But the folly I see frequently is to assume any such unavailable knowledge can
be obtained through mystical means.
I casually picked up a book in a library on this “Silva method” in the pre-internet era (back when every book was a
mystery since we did not have ready access to reviews that would have saved our time), out of curiosity. I recall
it being pseudoscience. Silva method is not endorsed by any US medical school I know and it will not be. But you
need to understand – US universities are large entities with many independent actors. Some one may start a small
class on an innocuous name in a well known university and use these materials and these Silva guys may claim that
they have academic rati cation. But it is simply not so.
There is no case for the soul today. With that goes any discussion or afterlife, reincarnation, heaven or hell. It was a
pre-scienti c idea. Victor Zammit’s name was brought up earlier. I saw the website and found it to be nonsense.
In a few decades, science will tell you what your so-called soul is. By that I mean, we will have mapped in a much
better way, the hundred trillion or so synapses that exist in your brain. Perhaps, we would have developed a better
mathematical model of their activations. The technology to make this possible is just emerging. We might be able to
say, with a scan at birth or perhaps a little later in life, who might be statistically predisposed to
religious/spiritual/mystical (whatever you choose to call it) experiences and who would not be.
Read this review of the book

amazon .com/gp/customer-reviews/R1X1S1QU2QH1XK/
It is a lawyer’s review of this book (appropriate since Zammit makes a big deal of his law degree).
“Victor Zammit sets great store by his being a lawyer, to the point where he includes it in the title of his book. I am
also a lawyer and I can assure you that if Mr. Zammit ever knew anything about the burden of proof, constructing a
case and testing evidence, he has forgotten it. He seems to feel that being admissable in a court of law is somehow
of value as proof since he includes that in his publicity blurb. Every lawyer who ever practiced would laugh at that.”
@Sadaryavarta
 so many scriptures so many structures world across have huge science ( stories)
No one said that the ancients were stupid. They just did not have the intellectual tools we have today. But they had
Geometry and they were ingenious with it and used it to great e ect in both astronomy and architecture. But either
could only go so far. In astronomy, geometry was good enough to estimate distances using trigonometry, but
without adequate calculus, it is was di cult to sort out what rotated around what. Likewise with architecture. No
mystical postulates necessary here. None of this is the case for Jaggi’s loose talk.
 let JV may continue his zest for spirituality

I have an easier time believing in someone’s spirituality when he is not raking in a billion dollars, selling trinkets and
training programs. Right now, I just see him as a devious CEO and salesman selling a false product.
VJ
@ Sadaryavarta
Your opinion is understandable that what after all JV takes from everyone! He takes INR 1500 for an inner
engineering program- food too, rent of place, organizing headache and that becomes tax free too. One can go to
any of his satsang for free which are organised in many cities. So much of knowledge is free there after all! Why the
hell any one should have a problem with him?
I don’t know about everyone’s problem much but my problem is he gave me a dream, a dream of self realization,
dream of spiritual attainment, a dream of buddhatva.
You know what, its very easy to capture (or say impress) someone’s mind by itching its ignorance (which in my
understanding is because of forgotten memory, insu cient training of critical analysis, poor education and active
politics to kill awareness in a common man.) It inevitably becomes very easy and vulnerable to believe in the ‘world
beyond’.
Humanity is continuously going to evolve knowledge due to real scienti c (I mean logical) e orts and not because
of spiritual e orts. Siddharth’s profoundness which we believe today is more because of his political alliance with
Mourya empire and his excellent communication skills. Mythologies in the world are still alive not because there
were real heroes as claimed in them, but because of careful preservation and intelligent scholars who wrote and
rewrote them again and again sensing the social demands. Jaggi is so good in easily impressing people because of
his good schooling and not pranayams and samadhis.
A cut short solution for the ultimate knowledge, and nal answer for the complex questions which many people
don’t even know how to ask them is very lucrative and people become slave of their own desire. The deal of
knowing the whole universe in return of surrendering the mind appears very wise. To become extra ordinary is a
very very ordinary desire.
My e orts to live the dream Rajneesh gave me, my decision to give my helm to JV, my time I wasted in many books
about Krishnamurti – made me more and more confused. Yes I learnt from them, and I say I learnt a lot but its like
someone says, “If you jump from a tall building and spread your arms in the air, you will start ying like birds”…….
you jump and you spread your arms too….. Well, you are somehow saved from any major damage and now you
walk on the earth like humans with a sound knowledge of ‘Gravity’ and now you know that falling is not ying.
JV and Osho are my real gurus in teaching me this, however it was their best e ort to prevent me from this. I am
not alone of my kind who were saved and believe in gravity more than divinity, there are many. I wish all the best to
you too. Never surrender your mind to anyone.
If you read the full blog, I think Ravi is only saying that there are other ways to learn the gravity apart from taking
risk of falling.
All I typed above are my personal opinions and not to be taken too seriously without reliable check.
And the mega structures made in Egypt, Balkan, Peru and anywhere else are made by humans only, with tools
signi cantly less advanced than of today and in ages of time. And its possible.
Ravi
@R Surve
Here is the entry for Helen Duncan, an exposed fraud, who Victor Zammit claims is proof for after-life, according to
the review.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Duncan
Likewise, Dean Radin (whose name came up earlier), a well-known pseudoscience pusher, claims that Fox sisters,
who confessed to faking all their spirit talking, are among the proof for his nonsense. The sisters’ fraud started a
huge number of copy cats who continued their act, even after the Fox sisters confessed.
Someone’s summary
youtube. com/watch?v=w8ktpH38_F0
Let’s assume that Radin and Zammit were initially naive and did not know about the confessions when they wrote
the books. But they would have learned about them later, when it was pointed to them. At the very least, they
should mention the confessions in the next edition of their book, even if they take other positions. They don’t. I
consider this willful intellectual dishonesty, not ignorance.
Robert Park, in his book – Voodoo Science, wonders if initial foolishness gradually evolves into fraud because it
proves lucrative.
Same thing with “UFO” crop circles. A few farmers initially faked them for fun. A huge number of copy cats followed.
The original guys confessed, but that never stopped the phenomenon because the audience had already
developed.
Carl Sagan, in his critically acclaimed book – The demon haunted world, covers the above phenomena and many
more. I think you should read these books before accepting soul talk.
It would open up a fascinating area of research if souls were shown to exist. All scientists would be excited about
the new opportunities for discovery. Yet, scientists don’t even take a glance in this direction now. Why? Is it because
Zammit’s readers are wise and open-minded, but the scientists aren’t.. or could it be that they simply do not know
how to apply critical standards to understand hoaxes and frauds.
I see the world full of gullibility, misconceptions, lies, fraud and ignorance. A supernatural explanation for me can
only be arrived at after the highest standards of critical reviews are met, not eagerness. Once such standards are
applied however, every supernatural claim falls at. Our old books were full of supernaturalism. Not even one was
ever proven.
Academia and its institutions usually hold these essential standards, while book authors like these eagerly push
nonsense for pro t. Critical peer review is important. Exercise caution about any sensationalist book that does not
have academic consensus.
Apoorva
Anyone kind enough to debunk this?
http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/yoga-meditation/science-of-yoga/why-should-you-be-awake-all-night-on-
mahashivratri/
Pl provide a link if this has already been debunked elsewhere.
Ravi
@Apoorva
The science case is obviously laughable. Man became bipedal around the time his brain got bigger. Coincidence? So
you should be upright tonight. Why just on Shiva Ratri? Why just at night? Thankfully, he saves us from further hare-
brained, faux-science explanations.
People have been doing all-nighters for Shiva Ratri for centuries. A harmless practice for a healthy person. It is
usually a communal experience and people in religion, whichever one that is, do practice stress activities to a rm
their faith.
But what got my attention was Jaggi insinuating himself as a deity into the traditional practice: You can use my
photo with owers and incense. Or why not use that overpriced “yantra” I hyped up and sold you?
“You can prepare your room by lighting a lamp or a Linga Jyothi, and placing a Dhyanalinga Yantra or Sadhguru’s
picture, owers, incense etc.”
isha.sadhguru. org/mahashivratri/celebrations/participate/
The chutzpah of a cult leader is always a sight to behold.
Shanmugam
I wrote a clear post regarding the Rudraksha trick as an answer in Quora: https://www.quora.com/Does-Rudraksha-
from-Isha-foundation-rotate-according-to-the-quality-of-food-as-Sadhguru-Jaggi-Vasudev-claims-Does-it-still-work-
if-you-tie-the-Rudraksha-on-something-static/answer/Shanmugam-P-12
I suggest Nirmukta to write an article regarding this Ideomotor e ect and the Rudraksha trick. Many people are not
aware of it and an article in Nirmukta will gain more exposure..
VJ
@Shanmugam, thank you for this. Actually then also I kind of realized that there is something my hand does as
rudraksh moves. So i tried hanging it like a pendulum. I remained still after few oscillation regardless of what you
put beneath it, an onion or water or curd. I then replaced rudraksh with a plastic pearl and it oscillated in my hand
and got still on stand. I am really waiting to ask this to JV in public when he comes to Delhi and I am free.
Shanmugam
VJ
“Actually then also I kind of realized that there is something my hand does as rudraksh moves.”
Yes, if you look carefully you can realize that. I too have felt the same way when I experimented with it many years
before. But since I was completely ‘impressed’ by many claims by Isha, I didn’t give it much thought about it and
dismissed as something trivial. That is how con rmation bias works. You search for, pay attention to, and
remember only those things which support your beliefs. Now, I am pretty sure that this con rmation bias,
bandwagon e ect and authority bias are working together in many Indians which stops them from thinking
rationally.
“So i tried hanging it like a pendulum. I remained still after few oscillation regardless of what you put beneath it, an
onion or water or curd.”
Yes. It won’t work. But if you state this as an objection, they will reject it by saying this “Actually the rudraksh will
move only if you hold it in your hands. Because whether it works or not depends on the person who is holding it. If
you are meditative/receptive enough, it will move. It is not moving when you hang it on something because no one
is holding it”
I already saw such rebuttals given by few people on Youtube. They can invent such rebuttals so easily. Even after
reading the answer in Quora, one guy commented the following:
“if its so , why does the rudrakash behaves di erently when the water is clean and when its dirty ? It should behave
in similar way if i consider your post”
He obviously didn’t understand how ideomotor e ect works. So I gave him the following suggestion:
“That is how ideomotor e ect works.. I don’t think you understood the answer properly.. You have been already
told in which direction it is supposed to rotate and you are anticipating the move in that direction. Because of that,
you initiate a slight movement that you are not really conscious of..
May be you can try this experiment, if you are really interested to nd out the truth about it, putting aside all the
bias. Try each of the following with two or three people:
Give the Rudraksh to someone who doesn’t know about what you have been told in Isha and try the
same experiment with dirty and clean water. Note down your observations.
Give the Rudraksh to someone and tell him the exact opposite of what you have been told in Isha
and try the same experiment with dirty and clean water. Note down your observations."
But he refused saying the following:
“Well I don’t think I need to do that . When I was testing on water I did not anticipate which direction it should move
.Anyways I don’t think We can conclude it like this . Thanks for ur inputs”
I realized nothing can be done with some people because their conditioning is so deep. Even if you prove certain
things with evidence, people will still hold on to their old beliefs. It is called ‘belief perseverance’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance
Beliefs are very dangerous. Unless it is prevented in advance, it cannot be cured.
” I am really waiting to ask this to JV in public when he comes to Delhi and I am free. ”
First of all, he won’t let you to even nish the question. Then he will say some joke and make people laugh. He may
also try to ridicule you.. Once people enjoy the humor, they will become less serious. He knows how to carry on the
conversation after that.
The situation is hopeless unless there is some kind of revolution. And with the current government, things are
going worse and worse everyday. Read this: https://www.quora.com/Would-you-want-the-Indian-government-to-
increase-funds-in-science-education-and-research-would-you-sign-the-March-for-the-Science-
petition/answer/Shanmugam-P-12
Ravi
When I was growing up, I assumed that people who studied science thought scienti cally and those who did not
were more prone to magical thinking. I assumed that since more and more people were studying science, we would
naturally move to a more scienti c society.
That has not turned out to be the case. Increasingly people now argue, hey look, I studied science. I believe in
magical things. Therefore we must conclude that magical thinking is consistent with science education – wisdom
even, rather than face the bitter reality that they have not received good scienti c schooling.
Part of the reason is that we have just taught the kids what people discovered during the scienti c revolution; but
we did not teach them the experience of looking at a problem, breaking it down to experiments, executing those
experiments without biases and logically defending the conclusions against criticism. We taught kids by rote, not
for critical thinking. Now we are paying the price.
We over-burdened them with dry facts to remember, but did not educate their mindset. We gave them books to
memorize, but did not make them spend much time in labs. When we did take them to labs, we just gave them
experiments to repeat as recipes, but did not encourage them to unravel little mysteries by designing their own.
If a college graduate cannot gure out that astrology, homeopathy and mantra-tantra are pseudoscience, what
value does that college degree have? It is a trade school degree, at best. Indeed that is what most of us look for in a
college degree – a good paycheck in return for job skills, not for being educated to look at the world in an intelligent
way.
To be fair, even the best educational systems have failures. There will always be a certain percent that cannot be
educated well. But our defects are systemic and we are failing at a civilizational scale. Our PISA scores are so
embarrassing, that we opted out of the testing.
https://www.thequint.com/news/india/indias-pisa-moment-are-we-turning-into-a-nation-of-nitwits
This is not about race. Indians do well, once they receive education in other countries. Indian academic
achievement is higher everywhere, except in India. Yes, this is partly skewed given that a selected demographic is
more prone to immigrate, but we seem to do better in other systems even when adjusted for that.
Cult leaders, quacks, politicians are both themselves victims as well as the exploiters of this mindset. We have hit a
new low. Magical thinking is now the o cial government position.
Shanmugam
@Ravi
Totally agree… The scienti c method is not taught as much as scienti c knowledge.. If the education system
changes, everything will change..
Not sure which state you are from, but in Tamil Nadu, Kamal Hasan has entered politics.. He is a critical thinker.. He
said that his rst goal is to improve the quality of education. Hopefully, if he gets a chance, he may strive towards
improving it.
d
I’m available for high tea, call me
R Surve
The scienti c method should de nitely be introduced to our students ( rst, our teachers need to be re-educated!
Can it be done?). However, we shouldn’t use it rigidly or dogmatically. For example, a lot of the transformation that
Shanmugam describes can’t be veri ed scienti cally. But I wouldn’t reject it for that reason.
R Surve
I wouldn’t be surprised if “The scienti c method” soon becomes yet another topic to be memorised in the vast CBSE
syllabus. That’s the way we do things!
Titas Bandyopadhyay
I have just one questions to ask to all the science…

Apart from several attempts at explaining the signi cance of its discovery…. Did you actually nd out what Higgs
Boson is ?
sadaryavarta
@Titas
Second your pov
Science would not be able to explain every thing OR may take time to arrive conclusively what has been explored by
a di erent dimensions which this land had for thousand of years.
No wonder this path has been deteriorated & heinously commercialized to a level where its hard to believe now but
it has given logic & experience of so many natural process’s
Please read life of Swami Vivekananda am sure his life & spiritual approach if far evolved compared JV
look at the controversy around HB – Higgs himself has agreed with idea by preferring to call the particle a “scalar
boson,” and reportedly has expressed discomfort over his “rock star” status. The physicist, perhaps preferring to
avoid the incoming storm of media attention, said he would not be available to news reporters today.
That year’s Nobel Prize for physics may go down in history as one of the most controversial, even if physicists all
seemed to believe that the Nobel committee must recognize the “rock star event of the decade” in some form,
according to the New York Times.
Still, Mark Jackson, a theoretical physicist at the Paris Centre for Cosmological Physics, pointed out in Scienti c
American that the prize is no stranger to controversy with its “not-so-noble” history of overlooking certain scienti c
contributors—especially women. Quite a few chronicles & magzines detailed an ugly dispute over the Nobel award
for the invention of the charge coupled device in 2010.
This is what I meant when I say mudslinging ……which ppl above have rubbished to con rm that it all stopped 100
years back among science fraternity
Sapt Sindhu always had & will always have this strong spiritual science of studying & understanding micro ( self) to
arrive at macro though I appreciate quality level have gone down whether its JV or somebody else can raise the bar
….only time will tell
let quality of life grow
Namaskar
Titas Bandyopadhyay
As once Heisenberg said…

“The rst gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is
waiting for you.”
and I don’t know who or what is this God… neither do YOU…
Thanks @ Sadaryavarta
Ravi
@Shanmugam
I agree that xing education will x most of India’s problems, but it will be on a scale of decades. We dug ourselves
into this hole over decades. It will take about as much to get out.
@R Surve
 rst, our teachers need to be re-educated! Can it be done?
Yes, but only with great e ort. As a general rule, if you don’t grasp the basics of rational thinking very early, well
before college, it is quite di cult to inculcate them later.
Most of my own teachers were not fully scienti c. However, for most part, they kept their personal irrationality out
of the class aside from occasional lapses.
We can do a good science education even with only super cially scienti c teachers. The process is the key, not as
much the mediator (though that will help).
 However, we shouldn’t use it rigidly or dogmatically.

You are vastly overplaying this. I cannot think of any problems in India where the problem is that India is
“dogmatically” scienti c. Can you list some? All I see are problems where even the bare basics of science are not
understood.
In fact, let’s take your own case. You articulated support for two irrational ideas: souls and homeopathy. I’ll set
aside souls since that was covered.
You said: “Homeopathy is also rejected by science merely because there is no explanation so far.”
Do you think the problem here is that Science is dogmatic or that YOU, along with most Indians don’t understand
what science is and where it stands on Homeopathy? The former is a more pleasant thing to believe for you – made
easy when our government itself foolishly endorses it now.
It is trivial to disprove Homeopathy. Give sugar pills to one group and give homeo sugar pills to another. There
virtually will be no di erence between the groups. People from both groups will of course say that the pill
(whichever one they got) worked on them. But that is meaningless, given the control group.
Homeopaths say they do “provings” to discover “medicines”. It is also trivially easy to debunk. Everything that the
subject says during the so-called proving is just bakwas. How to show that? Simple. Again: double-blind trial. Give
say 10 substances to a group of subjects and now ask the homeopath to gure out who got what based on his
proving method. He will dismally fail. You can even tell him which 10 substances you used, only holding back
information on who got what. He will still fail. He may get 1 or 2 right (based on sample size) in case of the later
method due to random chance. But that is about it.
And yet, you likely won’t change your position due to the way your brain has already been wired. Science and the
rational method is simply the way to ght against this wiring.
I have repeatedly asked what mystics came up with in the entire history of humanity and so far I only heard
crickets.
@sadaryavarta
 Please read life of Swami Vivekananda am sure his life & spiritual approach if far evolved compared JV
You should read Vivekananda.
As I posted earlier
Vivekananda: “It is wrong to believe blindly. You must exercise your own reason and judgment”.
Vivekananda: “Are the same methods of investigation, which we apply to sciences and knowledge outside, to be
applied to the science of Religion? In my opinion this must be so, and I am also of opinion that the sooner it is done
the better. If a religion is destroyed by such investigations, it was then all the time useless, unworthy superstition;
and the sooner it goes the better”.
Vivekananda might not have understood science well, but he was harmonious with it to the extent that he was able
to. I may not care for mysticism and may not agree with everything Vivekananda said. But I respect his intellectual
honesty, candor, lack of material interests and general lack of ego – all opposites of Jaggi.
Compare “Are the same methods of investigation, which we apply to sciences and knowledge outside, to be applied
to the science of Religion? In my opinion this must be so, and I am also of opinion that the sooner it is done the
better.”
to Jaggi, the idiot:
Water changes taste when I hold the bowl.

I can just look at the water you drink with an evil eye and make you sick.
Atoms will yield if I meditate.
Reiki (another make-believe pseudoscience) will e ect your karma.
We ISHA people can magically heal with our karma.
We ISHA people can look into the future.
I have super powers to terminate your super powers.
Here, buy this dowsing bead from me.
But let’s not test any of this OK? Because I (Jaggi) am so awesome that I am beyond science. Science is limited and
dogmatic, I tell you. You should just believe whatever I tell you. Don’t use your brain logically. Just meditate on
trying to be as awesome as me.
Kahaa Vivekananda, an honest mystic and Kahaa Jaggi, a devious cult leader. Your false equivalences again.
If his sophistry skills were not so wonderful, he would be regarded by any intelligent person as a routine village-
idiot for these positions.
sadaryavarta and Titas Bandyopadhyay: Don’t worry about the cryptic things particle physicists say. First worry if
you have enough basic schooling to not be fooled by an obvious idiot. Go ahead, debate any of Jaggi’s stupid talk.
After we cleared all these up, then we can worry about quantum mechanics. OK?
sadaryavarta
@ Ravi
My school which majorly happened at home taught & have enough insights about rich spiritual science of this great
land to be fooled around by any one including your idiot Jaggi
fortunately what all JV shared was taught to us long back when he hasn’t appeared on scene
so for us what he say may not be all wrong but whether he holds those spiritual power for upliftment for mankind
& do not commercialize & market it cheaply shall decide ultimate faith for him
Right now all we saying one can not rule out dimension beyond science
Ravi
@sadaryavarta
Home schooling with religious training? That explains a lot.
Sure, let’s call superstition as spiritual science, if that makes you feel better with your “belief perseverance”. Sounds
more respectable.
This land is indeed great, but not because of its superstitions. It is great, inspite of them.
All cult leaders convince their followers that everything they say is inline with the sacred texts and beliefs of the
followers. That is how they gain authority in the rst place. They all demonstrate some grip over existing
superstitious ideas that their followers consider to be “spiritual science” of some sort. They enter their minds
through these aws in reasoning. Then they start injecting their own interpretations that are self-serving. Gradually,
their teachings may even replace the initial magical beliefs they exploited.
This is the same story with cults all over the world – eastern or western. Same story with ISHA, the Christian cult I
lived with or Aum Shinrikyo. See my posts about Aum Shinrikyo and other cults above. Read some books on cults
and cult psychology. Without this awareness, you are ripe pickings, especially given your upbringing; and not just
for Jaggi, but many more like him. People like you keep looking for people like Jaggi to dominate your minds, to help
give fancy and respectable explanations for the existing irrationality unfortunately programmed into you early on.
 Right now all we saying one can not rule out dimension beyond science.
I have heard this over and over again, all my life. And every time I hear it, it comes from someone who does not
grasp what science is (whatever the degrees and positions maybe).
Science is not a single rigid method. There is nothing to be dogmatic there. In fact, it is by de nition, non-dogmatic.
But you are understanding what a dogma is in reverse.
All it says is: Don’t.Be.Foolish. It isn’t about test tubes and formulas. It isn’t about particle accelerators and agar gels.
It is about having clarity about your thoughts and language. It is about subjecting your own ideas to critique at
every juncture when you make novel claims. It is about verifying things. It is about avoiding bias and learning from
past mistakes of reasoning and execution.
Arguing that “one can not rule out dimension beyond science” is like arguing that one cannot rule out dimension
beyond SANITY.
Science changes every day. New methods are constantly added. Anything that you can show to reliably gives new
insights can be included in its fold. 100 years from now, we will be using completely new approaches and methods.
But that will still be science, because the central core of sanity/clarity and critical thought is the same.
The opposite of critical thinking is gullibility, not spirituality. The opposite to science is pseudoscience. It is not an
alternative for anything.
BTW, if you think that any grown man who claims super powers anywhere should be called something other than
an idiot, let me know. I am “open-minded” to other adjectives. In my view, a 6 year old who makes these claims may
be cute, but a 60 year old who thinks like this is an embarrassment. As are the followers who nod mindlessly after
him. That’s not being spiritual.
There is also a di erential diagnosis of Mania – a psychiatric problem. It can be treated.
Apoorva
March 1, 2018 at 12:32 am
If Jaggi Vasudev does not give reference to & does not use terms like ‘Science’, ‘Scienti c method’, ‘Scientists’,
‘Physics’, and many other similar terms, then his entire sermon will sound like hollow, going-in-circle, kind of
voodoo talk.
Filter his talks of these terms and you will see the di erence.
MSusanne
March 1, 2018 at 6:51 pm
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It’s simple survey lling. Even $10 per survey (ten minutes
duration). If you are interested, send me email to hans.orloski[at]gmail.com
fred
April 15, 2018 at 11:12 am
fortunately sadhguru is tons smarter than whoever wrote this silly article.
VJ
April 15, 2018 at 9:21 pm
Fred, what actually occurred in your mind to conclude this in one sentence? Would you care to explain so that your
words can be taken seriously atleast! Did you read the entire thread and then judged everyone’s smartness level?
I think the nice thing to do will be putting your arguments and disagreements in a mannered way instead of
passing a judgement from the window and then probably shut it! However you are free.
Deepu Aby Varghese
April 20, 2018 at 4:52 pm
Thank You. You are 100 correct. Vasudev sounds accurate but some member of Indian society are not educated to
enough point out the part where he blu s. Thank You
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Devotee
May 25, 2018 at 9:31 pm
Spirituality starts where intellectual pursuits end. Spirituality is more like an art than a science. You can’t learn it in a
science laboratory.
The moment you connect with God – all intellect is set aside. It’s an experience that is a little hard to describe. At
the time of communion with God, nothing else matters.
R Surve
May 25, 2018 at 10:47 pm
@Devotee: My father used to nd peace when he was in a temple. It may have been the same experience. (I haven’t
had it.)
Ravi
May 26, 2018 at 8:53 am
@Devotee
I completely disagree.
The so-called spiritual experiences are very much a subject of intellectual study. This is well within the domain of
academic neuroscience and psychology.
Our brains are complex network structures. What we call consciousness is simply the emergent phenomenon
arising from the rings of 100 TRILLION synapses. We have only barely begun to produce the tools capable of
modeling them.. mathematically and empirically.
In our day-to-day life, our brain res in certain patterns. This constitutes our “normal” experience. However, the
brain can re di erently due to a number of factors. This is, at the core, no more mysterious than an old audio disk
emitting a di erent sound when played at a di erent speed, with a di erent needle etc. In case of the brain, this
leads to di erent perceptions of ego, time etc, leading to personally novel (but not novel across groups) states.
The factors range from rituals (group chanting, thought-stopping meditation), fuel (oxygen) control (breathing
exercises), chemical stimuli insults (psychedelics, neurotoxins), centrifugal forces and strong electro-magnetic
elds. All of these can mess with the delicate electrical activity of the complex lipo-protein apparatus that is the
brain.
All this is studied under the domain of neuro-theology. You need to rst study that before you get to even consider
a supernatural mystery here. This is a fascinating area of research. We can already replicate these experiences with
a high degree of precision in sub-populations. Ignoring all we have uncovered so far and jumping to feel good,
magical thinking is being unworthy of the the 21st century.
These so-called spiritual experiences are much more common than people typically believe. Cults commonly use
meditation and breathing rituals, less commonly psychedelics and rarely, as in case of Aum, even electrical helmets.
I am not dissing the “spiritual experience”. It is a recognized phenomenon (with a poor name). A so-called spiritual
experience is sometimes a very valid way of looking at the world. An altered activity in many cases leads to
irrationalism, but may also look at the world in interesting ways that may “sometimes” be productive (in my view,
this is not the common outcome however). However, none of this has anything to do with spirits or the divine. They
are both cop-out explanations. We should instead engage in a rigorous and laborious unraveling of these
phenomena – the routine duty of science, rather than these hand-waving proclamations.
R Surve
May 26, 2018 at 10:47 am
@Ravi
Devotee’s post has an answer to your comment. It’s the last sentence. Communion with God is not for the purpose
of acceptance by the scienti c community.
Ravi
May 26, 2018 at 5:17 pm
@R Surve
a.) It has nothing to do with “Communion with God”. It is purely imaginary.
I have nothing against imagining things to feel better. Your mind is your domain of freedom. But it helps to
understand where reality ends and where imagination begins. Without that, some take a mild engagement in
imagination for feeling better to destructive heights – a participation in cults for example.
It is OK for you to imagine you can y, for pleasure. Just remember where imagination ends and reality begins
before you jump from anything. Reality has no accommodation for your beliefs and imagination. And you do not
have a right against criticism if you go around declaring immunity from gravity.
This is the equivalent to “yogis” (usually on cannabis) declaring that they visit other planets in meditation and it is as
if they then come and declare that in an astrophysics forum, or like Jaggi saying that atoms yield to him – no, that’s
just his imagination, not reality.
b.) Of course, he is looking for acceptance. Your father might not have been looking for acceptance, but Devotee
certainly is (even if he is unaware of it). Why else come to a rationalist web site and declare the bounds of intellect
and reason? What he does not care for is a push back to his imaginary ideas. Unlike a temple, this is not a safe
space for irrational proclamations.
Realtor
May 26, 2018 at 9:14 pm
Ravi,really dude,get a life.Which speci c yogi told you he visited planets?Any speci c hard proof?”Communion with
God” is purely imaginary.Which is the experiment that we you to this conclusion?Who were your test samples?What
was your statistical de nition of null hypothesis?Jaggi said atoms yield to him.When?Any video archives as proof?
It’s all imaginary.Did you enter people’s brains to conclude this?? Come on,the thread running since 2012,and you’re
playing endless ping pong here rather than getting a patent or discovering a new particle for instance.So neither
could you stop JV in these 6 years,who has spread his work immensely ever since,nor did you come up with any
original scienti c work,nor could you put this discussion to a logical conclusion.Hats o
Ravi
May 26, 2018 at 11:12 pm
@Realtor
 Which speci c yogi told you he visited planets?
Ganjai (cannabis) Sanyasi accounts from decades ago.
They would go around villages declaring that they visited this loka or that loka (planet is my word) thanks to their
meditative divya shakti and get freebies.
Jaggi’s yarn is only a bit more sophisticated since he wants to bilk middle class, not poor illiterate villagers.
 Which is the experiment that we you to this conclusion?

You seem to not understand the basics of how logic works. I don’t need to conduct a study to disprove your
“communion”. That burden is on YOU to show that you communed. People can snicker at you and not believe you
when you claim magic events. If you say you communed with some supernatural entity (let alone the chutzpah to
claim that the entity that supposedly created the universe wants to commune with some insigni cant you), you
have an ENORMOUS burden in proving that, not just a tiny p-value. You are not entitled to non-critical acceptance.
But typically people like you live in echo chambers like the at-earthers and declare “we are not crazy”, rather than
prove anything.
 Did you enter people’s brains to conclude this??

There are MRI studies on spiritual experiences. Again, consult neuro-theology work. Look up studies on psilocybin
and related compounds.
 So neither could you stop JV in these 6 years

Jaggi did not accomplish anything either, other than enriching himself in these 6 years and you guys have been total
suckers enabling him to do that. That he has been able to continue is not a measure of his greatness, but the
gullibility of people like you. How exactly do you consider yourself di erent from Ram Rahim’s followers again? That
Ram Rahim went unchecked with 5 crore followers means 5 crore people like you were gullible, not that Ram Rahim
had “spiritual super powers”.
Jaggi did not prove any of his BS. Try to stop his BS talk in his meetings and ask him for sample sizes and null
hypothesis. Your science bravado talk shuts down there. We’ll see how he will manage you by mocking you.
Go to Jaggi and ask him to prove his magic beads that he is peddling you or to prove his super powers that he
claims are capable to healing the sick, sickening the healthy or seeing into the future with his mind powers. Let me
know what rigorous statistical designs you will set up for him. We can discuss that.
 Come on,the thread running since 2012,and you’re playing endless ping pong here
The pongs can go on as long as Jaggi fans do the pinging.
 rather than getting a patent or discovering a new particle for instance.

My work is going ne, thank you. So when is Jaggi going to use his claimed mind magic to do any of those? When
are you going to ask him for some of those?
At least Ganjai Sanyasis had an excuse. They were high on weed.
R Surve
May 27, 2018 at 5:40 am
@Realtor: You sound as if you know Ravi personally (“… nor did you come up with any original …”). But his response
indicates that you don’t! Being anonymous may be a wise policy.
@Ravi: By connecting or communing with God, I presume Devotee means going into nirvikalpa samadhi which is
widely described. In other words, the experience of oneness without any di erences; we are (supposedly) just
waves in the ocean. Maybe my father came close to this when he visited temples, I don’t know. As far as I can see,
this can’t be proved or disproved by science. Some individuals such as Ramana Maharshi are supposed to be in
sahaja samadhi; they experience the world like us as well as oneness all the time. Some, like Sai Baba, could also
supposedly see things like individuals’ past lives and even control events.
When you assert that science will accomplish this and that, it is your faith, not science.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 7:06 am
@R Surve-Same here.Ravi seems to be sure that I am a JV follower,or much much worse,a Ram Rahim follower…I
guess he tried some of the ganjai baba weed last night :-).He also seems to know JV personally as he’s sure of his
accomplishments or lack thereof.Make no mistakes,I am all for rationality.But there are areas of self development
where doing something oneself is the only way to really get a hang.Spirituality is like an inner tuning of the nervous
system to more things than are required purely for survival and are hence factory made for us humans
@Ravi-It boils down to the de nition of real vs imaginary.If someone has a bad tooth pain,there could be a
possibility of recording brain activity through MRI,but the exact pain sensation can only be described by the one
undergoing it.So it’s very real for the one undergoing it,but unreal for someone else unless he is made aware of it
by the one with pain.Even then,the other person can’t live the experience himself,and at the maximum, understand
it in the context of available references.The only way to really feel it would be to go through it oneself.So the
changes in inner neurological structure through yoga can be felt only by rst hand experience.Here,the burden of
proof lies in trying on oneself,as one isn’t talking of external phenomenon.Just like it’s impossible to pick up a sport
or an art through just external observation.You can apply all external observation on an accomplished vilonist for
example,but to get anywhere near his working violin rythum,one has to practice.
Yogis always aimed at teaching this inner rythum,so the method of proof lies in constant inner observation.The end
result is not a universal theory,but the unique crystallization of one’ own being.The proof of the pudding lies in the
individual eating here,not in deducing some universal avour.So,the methodology applicable to external
phenomenon won’t work here.Forget yogis,just try bettering any basic nuerological skill such as driving,
swimming,playing the piano through studies and experiments on others without practice on oneself and see for
yourself how you fare.
Again,inner development is not like knowledge of universal laws,but tuning up of the observation and response
mechanism to the utmost.They called even Sachin Tendulkar God because of razor sharp re ex training received
not through lab experiments,but practice on self.The yogis are just an advanced version of that
Ravi
May 27, 2018 at 8:58 am
@R Surve
 By connecting or communing with God, I presume Devotee means going into nirvikalpa samadhi which is
widely described
The so-called spiritual experience is pan cultural neurological phenomenon. It is wired into us. People obviously
ascribe di erent religious meanings to it because they know no better.
 Maybe my father came close to this when he visited temples

As people experience it in churches, mosques and often in non-religious settings – I know one who unexpectedly
got it on a hike. Mother Teresa got hers in a packed train etc. Both Christians. Both assumed that they were
communing with the holy spirit. That is a belief.
We don’t doubt the “existence” of these subjective experiences and states. There is enough evidence. What is at
challenge is the traditional, cultural interpretation of what that experience actually is, beyond the subjective.
Subjectivity is purely activation patterns. Yes, even Tendulkar’s skills are just useful activation patterns that
happened to align well with the sport in question. If I reduce the speed of his activations with a drug, his skills will
obviously disappear, for the duration of e ect. If a sportsman’s brain is resected (as in the case of an accident or
injury), he may also lose the said skills because the neurons holding those activation patterns are permanently lost.
People with brain damage have to relearn language all over again, if it e ects well-recognised speech regions. What
you consider to be your soul is entirely neural circuits and their activation patterns.
If your father already had a religious experience, that experience can be recreated with 90% success in laboratory
settings. fMRIs can show corresponding activity, good for him, if it brought peace. What it isn’t is cosmic (unless we
argue like Sagan, we are the stu of stars).
 Some individuals such as Ramana Maharshi are supposed to be in sahaja samadhi; they experience the
world like us as well as oneness all the time.
Let’s not suppose. Suppositions are cheap.
I like Ramana Maharshi. He never claimed any magic powers. He did not care about wealth accumulation – very
unlike these cult leaders like Jaggi. He was an honest mystic. He simply shared his experience and the perspectives
it brought him, within the context of knowledge available to him then. We now have a much larger corpus of
narratives of spiritual experiences from across the entire world. They have recognizable themes. There is
anthropology work on this.
No, my issue is with personality cults. It is about letting other people exploit your mystical experience – what cults
do. It is also about attributing supernatural causes to it, even after all that is known about how brain work
(admittedly, a lot more detail still needs to be worked out, but the basic physiology is well understood). Even when
personally interpreted, people sometimes assume divine causation and ignore their family responsibilities. This is
destructive. So it needs to be demysti ed.
 Some, like Sai Baba, could also supposedly see things like individuals’ past lives and even control events.
Supposedly, supposedly. That is for the gullible. People will testify to just about anything – every sort of
demonstrable nonsense. We talked about Homeopathy earlier. You believe in it and you are not alone. Millions in
India will give testimonies with all the honesty and utmost con dence that it works. But the reality is that
Homeopathy is just plain sugar pills. How do we know? Well, if you really understand and have internalized basic
Chemistry or Biology, I should not have to explain it. But even ignoring that, just give plain sugar pills and these so
called homeo sugar pills without letting neither the prescriber nor the patient know, who is getting what. The
results are identical, no di erence at all – unsurprising. Yet, even after thousands of studies showing this, people
continue to come up with all kinds of delusional justi cations to see what they want to see. Testimonies are
completely useless. We need to adjust for all kinds of biases to get at reality. But I can’t make you understand this if
you never studied Biology beyond basic schooling or ever had to deal with the headaches of designing research
studies. Same deal with divine miracles and past lives. These are completely undependable accounts.
The entire research framework exists because of the reliably remarkable human propensity to delude (I am not
claiming immunity, none of us can). Even the most well-trained researchers, looking at very formal data, are still
prone to mix in biases. We have critical peer review, because we know we can’t trust ourselves even on seemingly
straight forward examinations and interpretations. We evolved the critical method to defend ourselves from our
own ckle minds. The lay public testimonies are so utterly smothered in biases that it is impossible to identify any
truth from it.
Past lives is an idea that utterly has no basis in Biology. I am assuming that you did not formally study Biology
beyond basic schooling. It is a superstitious belief. I cannot make at earthers understand how silly their views are.
None of them have formally studied Astronomy. The most they did was watch TV documentaries and read a book
here and there on the topic, just like you, and assume they are equipped for taking positions. Likewise, without a
formal education in Biology and Neuroscience (you can’t get this by ipping through a paperback on neuroscience –
not in-depth enough), you simply cannot grasp how utterly silly the notion of souls and past-life regressions are. It
is as irrational as claiming that the earth is at.
Likewise, Jaggi, who did not study Biology beyond basic schooling and was never even really interested in science in
school, by his own admission (and proud of it), will assert with great con dence and ignorance that tantra works,
reiki is real and espouse long dead miasmatic theories with complete con dence.
The only problem with each of you is that you either did not have the requisite education or worse, did not
internalize what you were taught and instead studied to test like Jaggi.
 When you assert that science will accomplish this and that, it is your faith
Is the atom bomb, a faith? Is polio vaccine, a faith? Is gene editing a faith?
Jaggi’s super power claims are a faith. Your belief in souls and past lives is a faith.
It is unfortunate that you cannot grasp the enormous di erences between the two.
Claiming science is faith is as bad as at earthers claiming that the spherical earth is a belief, not a fact. They
honestly imagine themselves as critical thinkers. I hope you can relate to at least this.
@Realtor
 Yogis always aimed at teaching this inner rythum

All this is ne. If meditating gives you peace, more power to you. No rationalist will critique that. Just don’t claim you
are interfacing with sentient, omnipotent cosmic entities or gaining super powers that defy physics. Then, you will
be asked to bring proof – big time, something that you don’t have in the slightest.
 Forget yogis,just try bettering any basic nuerological skill such as driving, swimming,playing the piano
through studies and experiments on others without practice on oneself and see for yourself how you fare.
You are completely subscribing to my argument that the brain is a neural network. You CONDITION it with
repetition. That is neuroscience. We can empirically demonstrate circuits strengthening. This isn’t the subjective.
There is objective biology behind it. We can show activation di erences in broad terms.
 They called even Sachin Tendulkar God because of razor sharp re ex training
Not really. There is also an internal component. You can improve anybody with training, but you can’t make a
Sachin out of any random kid with just practice. Not yet anyway. And practice in childhood better persists circuits
than does later training.
 The yogis are just an advanced version of that

Not even close. We can objectively test Sachin Tendulkar’s competence. Most of these Yogi’s just BS their way
through.
Try this link I posted earlier.

youtube .com/watch?v=CbKZ3pcjsjc
Note his golf coach argument.
Spiritual experiences are common and the overwhelming majority aren’t obtained through Yoga.
Advanced version of what anyway? Assume non-belief. How will you demonstrate a “yogi” is an advanced version of
anything? How will you measure? Given 2 “yogis” how will you reliably decide which one is more advanced? This is
all just hand waving.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 10:06 am
Ravi,very quick points-

1-Yes all spiritual development is akin to ne tuning of the nuerological system.That’s what’s described as
‘Chakras’.It’s like having not knowledge,but perfect reception of the cosmos as far as possible in the human
form.This has been wrapped in mystical terminology since ages because the average human wouldn’t have
understood any better
2-Even a perfect objective study won’t su ce,just like any amount of study of gymnastics doesn’t make a
gymnast.The goal is to be the gymanst rst hand,not study gymanst a.That is bound to be subjective.
3-Perfect nuerological harmony res an intuitive understanding of all other living beings.That’s the litmus test for
yogis.
4-Good that you appreciate Raman Mahirishi.But read a bit about him;he communicated with wild snakes and
monkeys even.It’s a di erent matter he never marketed these things as they were his spontaneous reactions and
he wanted folks to focus on the inner process,not external entertainment.Ofcourse with deeper development,
these things happen with such people spontaneously
5-The only way to measure a yogi is to be one himself.No other way possible
6-I agree that cults and the guru business can’t help this cause.Gurus are just like a working sample to demonstrate
what’s possible.Actually,a real devotee is one who takes the cue and carries out his own inner work
7-Absolutely,not everyone can reach the goal at once.It require tremendous talent and dedication.But the work is
cut out,and there are de nitely success stories.
8-That’s where they say this takes many lifetimes.Reincarnation will never have a basis in biology as it’s not the
physical body that can ever reincarnate,but subtle information.Just like a computer that has crashed,but the
recovered info moves on
9-The goal again is not proving or disproving reincarnation.If one tries meditation for even a month,enhanced
perception and clear,sharp thinking will be there to witness,to be used in anything from literature to science
10-Yes there is a bigger scheme of things beyond our understanding,scienti c or otherwise.Please don’t mind,but
can you point out to any scienti c construct to explain the untimely demise of Ajita Kamal?We all have an unknown
time left,with no clear understanding of reincarnation.So trying to be in as much harmony as possible is our only
bet.This in no way opposes science,but the scientist himself has a ticking clock on him.When the game’s over,the
king and the pawn go to the same place.So the idea is to develope oneself as far as possible as everything else will
be lost one day
Cheers
R Surve
May 27, 2018 at 10:24 am
Realtor: Your last two posts are really informative and I appreciate them. You could have written like this earlier
instead of having a dig at Ravi, which made me think you were a typical Jaggi bhakt.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 10:40 am
@R Surve:Thanks a lot! Actually I am not pro JV or anti Ravi.All humans are manifestations of the same universal
force.Ultimately,one is responsible for his individual life,and being follower or opposer of anything will not help
matters.May the light be with all!
Cheers
Ravi
May 27, 2018 at 3:52 pm
@Realtor
That is probably the most balderdash as I have seen in one post in this forum and that is saying something.
You seem to believe in every irrational nonsense there is.
Mystical states are “slightly” altered neural states, no matter how subjectively profound they feel to you. They don’t
give you super powers. They don’t tune you to cosmos. But they sometimes make you a bit more receptive in
conversation (I saw the reverse, more often). They don’t give you telepathic powers, much less animal telepathy.
There are no cosmic chakras in your body. This is childish nonsense.
Ramana might have genuinely imagined that he was talking to snakes and monkeys. He is not known for his critical
thinking (my appreciation is mostly for not taking advantage of the opportunity to exploit and enrich himself, not
his messages or beliefs). And there are much better sources for philosophy than him.
People with mystical experiences don’t get better. If anything, as a whole, they are less productive than they
previously were. If they did, ISHA would be lled with ordinary people entering and exiting as patent holders and
particle discoverers (to borrow your line). That is not the reality. If that was happening, I would be rooting for cults
like ISHA, not criticizing them. You don’t become a better scientist by this imaginary “spiritual development”. What
that takes is entirely di erent. If you look at the greatest minds today, hardly any waste time in this mystical
nonsense and “spiritual development”. There might be a few exceptions since they too are a slice of humanity.
As I remember, Ajita had already died before I took interest in this site. I can’t tell you anything more about his
death than what is publicly written. I don’t know any further. Why do you expect a special scienti c construct here?
Death is death.
Yes, I will die, as will everyone. I perfectly understand that. You don’t seem to. You, like Surve, seem to not grasp
what death really is. It is the nal event. Once the delicate circuits decay, there is no more you. It is entirely physical
(without getting philosophical). Your imaginary soul won’t just hop into another new born infant, puppy, kitten or
calf, with points in tow. It won’t go into another loka. It is this death denial, death angst as some philosophers call it,
that leads people to invest in all sorts of mystical nonsense including the soul delusion, despite zero evidence.
Accept death as a reality and you will spend life much more fruitfully. There are no other lifetimes to make amends
or improve. This is all we get.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 4:25 pm
Ravi-You have zero scienti c temperament,and that’s saying something, coz you are simply dismissing stu without
the slightest experimentation.A scienti c mindset is neutral to begin with and is ready to test and see for
oneself.Any dimwit can term anything as nonsense.A rational mind will atleast test both sides of the coin rigorously
under the required conditions,which you clearly don’t.Just spewing out synonyms of nonsense doesn’t make
scienti c analysis
Anyways,since we agree that life is short,please clarify your objective.If it’s-

1)Getting people o gurus, you’re failing miserably as you have to provide them the solutions they seek there as a
substitute.Otherwise,you get zero converts to your perspective,and all this discussion goes in vain.
2)Getting people to embrace science even if they’re not from the scienti c fraternity,then you need to put articles
on science,not against gurus.You have to have some original content showcasing your o ering,not commentary on
someone’s work who isn’t even from your walk of life
3)Get people to treat science as the ultimate answer giver-Well you have to rst have some respect for the
questions that people pose.Science is not holier than thou.All scienti c research runs on funding that governments
collect as tax and that pays scientists.So yes,you would do better to look at the demand for science in the overall
world that upkeeps it
4)Dissing and putting any person,practice,tradition,experience that doesn’t t your perspective-This I think is your
only motive.And you succeed here with ying colours.But it amounts to no positive change in the world.
So as we will all die one day,please get it very clear whether you want to leave any positive impact on science,
philosophy or whatever,or be remembered as some online troll.Will help you a lot.No matter how many time you
keep labelling stu as nonsense,if some positive outcome on the world doesn’t ensue,you will be one of the
millions of life’s forgotten pages.
Over and out.
Ravi
May 27, 2018 at 4:56 pm
@Realtor
Your problem is that you have no clue what scienti c temper is. Believing magical BS is the OPPOSITE of scienti c
temper. A rational mind does not give equal weight to BS. You are neither scienti c nor rational, not even remotely.
It is amusing that you think you are.
Do you think scientists have never heard of the words chakra, reincarnation and what not? Do you think no one
looked into these things? All reincarnation claims that were critically examined turned out to be nonsense.
Don’t worry about my life goals. It is hilarious that you think this forum is my life goal.
What exactly do you think rationalism is? What do you expect to nd in a rationalist web site? I am not the troll
here. You (half the posters here actually) are closer to that here (strictly speaking, you aren’t because you actually
believe this BS. Trolls only pretend to).
What response do you expect if you go to any scienti c forum and talk about chakras, animal telepathy and
reincarnation, other than laughter? This is not just me. You have absolutely no clue of what scienti c thinking or
rationalism, but you think you do. I blame our educational system.
Try this as an exercise. Go to a dozen rationalist web sites from di erent countries and note their view points. Look
for your pseudoscience beliefs in any science forum and see how they are treated. I have completely boring
scienti c and rational positions. It never ceases to amaze me on how people here think I promoting a strange or
novel worldview. If you know any reputed/mainstream science or rationalist web site that treats your BS with
respect, let me know. I would like to take a look.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 5:17 pm
Just 1 question-If this is a scienti c forum,why is all the energy spent on dissing whatever you believe is BS?Talk of
science,there is lot of good stu on arti cial intelligence,robotics,Internet of things,space exploration..and you’re
stuck with dissing JV,Nadi science,chakras,what not.So the entire narrative is against something,not for
anything.Since you put up nothing but negative criticism on something that’s not even your core o ering,you get
responses from various people.That’s for the scienti c part.For the rationalist bit,again the world will be really
better with rationalist expositions on varios problems being faced by people.Why don’t you attack radical Islam for
example which is a true threat and where much rational debate is needed?Or the fact that Brits emotionally upkeep
the Royal family on tax money?Or the fact that US jingoism hurts the world?Or that meat eating traditions are
killing the ecology?Or that child marriages are ruining lives?
So on this website,I nd zero scienti c or rationalistic analysis and remedial suggestions to any major world
issue.Only dissing.That’s why it will leave no mark on the world.
The believes you’re trying to puncture are neither radicalized nor do they pose a serious threat to society.And to
test anything,I mentioned speci c test conditions.Sit,meditate,see what you see.Decide if it’s hogwash or not for
yourself.That’s the condition for the experiment.Yes,they’ve tries to measure the weight of the soul and such
stu .But the question is,why apply your own pre decided conditions?
Anyways,enough wasting time on a futile pursuit of bringing some sense.Good luck with whatever you pursue
VJ
May 27, 2018 at 5:39 pm
Realtor, you seem to have lost temperament I think. You should revisit the entire thread if you haven’t or forgot.
What Ravi is saying is what you seem to miss all the time. He says, he likes Raman and Vivekananda for the reasons
that they seem honest to him for their words. And that they didn’t exploit people to enrich themselves unlike
Jagdeesh, Rajneesh, ram rahim and other similar cults.
On meditation, he says yes it helps some and harms some as well.
I personally feel after trying meditation for more than 6months…. that it’s not useful for sure, may be it’s not
harmful and for sure it’s a time waster activity. Yes you feel better after some realisation as I feel now after
realisation that meditation is a time waste. Observing my actions, thoughts, words, reactions is more logical, fruitful
and happiness provider than forcefully pushing urself in a hybernate state. Sound sleep is way better to resurrect
the enthusiasm.
Your demand that Ravi will be in the position to comment only after trying meditation…he mentioned also that he
was also involved in some cult in past.
And about death, if you say that life becomes more harmonised by not thinking death as death is…that becoz idea
of next life gives better hope to live…well may be that is a little less disappointing way to see at death but truth is
truth be it rude or dry or anything….I feel so atleast.
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 6:01 pm
VJ-Meditation is not slumber,but observation of every single breath within.And every thought and action is powered
by breath.Yes,one will have to cut through a ton of thoughts inside before reaching very subtle vibrations within,but
that’s the fun, coz that’s when you realize that thought is just a tool.Hence you start using thought,not the other
way around.And then,thought will become more e cient as it’s being harnessed,not followed.Hence it is a very
useful activity to power much more e cient throught and action.But don’t worry on all this..Keep up the dissing
game.I’ve seen this thread from the beginning.I’ve never seen more unnecessary hubris anywhere else.
Please try and answer atleast few of the questions posted
Adios
Ravi
May 27, 2018 at 6:12 pm
@Realtor
Rationalists are primarily concerned with correcting the misconceptions the public has about science.
Pseudoscience critique is a key component of rationalism. Rationalism is the social activism side of scienti c
communities. The routine work of science is discussed elsewhere – in academic forums. Rationalist forums are
necessarily critical forums.
So yes, criticizing cult leaders, astrology, medical pseudoscience, mystical claims is very much a part of rationalist
community activity.
 Why don’t you attack radical Islam for example

This is a tired question I have answered in several places. Look for it. The short answer is because I don’t belong to
or live in a muslim country. Muslim communities have their own scientists, rationalists and atheists (not enough
perhaps, that is a di erent issue) and it is their job to x their own communities.
Further, we all have issues that annoy us most. For me, it is medical pseudoscience, astrologers and cults, due to
my personal exposure to each of these irrationalities. Other rationalists may be animated by other concerns. I don’t
comment much on social justice, ecology, gay rights, women’s rights etc, because I don’t have complex viewpoints
to share, at least not for now. There are other people who are better equipped for that.
This website, in my view at least, serves as supplying counterweight views to many things that otherwise go
uncontested in OUR culture. Astrology, gurus, cow urine, homeopathy are all often uncontested ideas in our
culture. People are not even aware that these things have absolutely no scienti c proof and think that their
neighbor testifying is all that proof is. Just making people aware that things aren’t that simple is a service.
Take the concept of gurus. Almost no one in India understands the concept of a cult or that there are studies on
cult psychology. If they are simply made aware that there are books they can read about this and it isn’t milk and
honey, that is service enough.
In India, most people have no clue about how science works, including a good chunk of those with college degrees
in science. The issue is not intelligence, but not knowing that they have been under-served by educational
institutions. Just letting people know that, will at least enable those with a passion, to start on a path of continued
education, rather than sit smug and be content in an illusion of understanding.
Yes, I agree that there are a lot worse beliefs. But I don’t believe in aiming for the worst standards possible. Just
because there are communities worse than ours does not mean we don’t have to try to improve. We should try to
beat the best, not just aim to not be the worst.
 That’s the condition for the experiment.

Whose condition is that? I don’t need to be infected with condition X to do research or think scienti cally about it.
That’s just not how it works. I can publish a paper on sports injuries, without ever having participated in the sport in
question. I could, but my research would be not less valid if I didn’t. Science is objective and data-driven, not based
on subjective immersion and assertions.
VJ
May 27, 2018 at 6:12 pm
Realtor, yes they say so…breath observation and all. And that’s fun too. But to me non productive fun. A fun like,
playing with infant’s toys….I nd it more sensible dealing with real and rst hand component , the thought, not the
metaphor, the breath.
I tried it and I saw people trying the same. Observing on thought didn’t bring any change.
I don’t know which questions you are referring to….
Realtor
May 27, 2018 at 6:27 pm
VJ-Please do deal with thought.Breath in increasing levels of subtlety is the background and underlying
nourishment to thought.So the better one developes it,the more clarity he will gain in thought.Ofcourse one is free
to enjoy the action in outward thinking.Just that it works much better when the source is addressed.The questions I
mentioned are around scienti c and rational discourse in a post above.
Ravi-No other tradition has this emphasis on practice and perfection of one’s own senses rather than a gospel on
God.To put in another way, Islam and Christianity are poor cousins of Yoga and meditation,as these are not belief
systems but techniques of self mastery.So in the Indian context,the Guru tradition has been going on for ages and
there are surely true and false cases of real inner development.Western cults are nowhere in terms of
content,while Indian gurus do give out techniquesn and there are many genuine cases.Hence the treatment of
Indian and Western traditions can’t be the same.Anyways,if your aim is to educate and point out books and
supplementary education, creating threads around those will be much more fruitful,if that’s truly your goal.
Ravi
May 28, 2018 at 4:24 am
@Realtor
 No other tradition has this emphasis on practice and perfection of one’s own senses rather than a gospel on
God.
Neither is appropriate for the modern world. The lessons of the 18th century enlightenment are
a.) Don’t trust religious authority.
b.) Don’t trust your senses (and sensibilities) – use critical analysis instead.
These lessons propelled the West forward, by allowing it to develop new (and proper) sciences in a relatively short
period of time. We still have not reached this point even after some 250-300 years.
 if your aim is to educate and point out books and supplementary education
Go to any major MOOC resource and type in the topic of your interest.
Coursera is a good start.

Or a MOOC search engine.
class-central. com
This course can help you

coursera .org/learn/medical-neuroscience
(I looked at the content some years ago and the reviews are great too)
The point is not whether you need this medically focused information.
Once you go through a proper intro course, you will get a sense of how modern minds think about these things.
You will think di erently after being exposed to this information. You really need to know the basics of how the
brain works before making any claims on ne tuning it.
Please note that the course may sound dry/di cult, with new terms introduced left and right, if you are not used to
studying Biology. But you should persist.
Other than that, before you can make any claims about the body, you should understand Human Physiology. It will
demystify the body and these mystical talk will no longer appeal to you. You will understand the body far better
than Jaggi does.
We read this in college

amazon .com/Guyton-Hall-Textbook-Medical-Physiology/dp/1455770051/
But it may be too heavy if you are not committed to it.
However, I am cautious about recommending a much shorter format like this

coursera .org/learn/physiology (did not review the content)
You might not appreciate the topic enough.
Nevertheless, you can explore from there.
P.S: Busy for the rest of the week.
Realtor
May 28, 2018 at 6:44 am
Thanks for the links.Will de nitely visit.
The western enlightenment just can’t be compared to Eastern traditions as the former is a social movement against
a really dogmatic church.They never ever even came close to working on any senses or sensibilities of the
individual,but worked on pure Church dogma.The eastern concept of enlightenment is an individual development
involving changed within the individual.
So kudos that we’re nally talking on some sources.Surely these will help anyone in bettering his/her knowledge
and avoid bad hookups.But again,it doesn’t mean Jaggi is a dimwit or Eastern traditions are meaningless or there is
no potential to enhance the mind/senses,as we have not considered either them or Jaggi’s work in its entirety and
there’s a ton of it.
So,great you shared these sources and it’s good to expose oneself to it.At the same time,western traditions had
zero impetus on inner growth and ran on dogma,not to mention their small lineage compared to 1000 of years on
the other side.Since the subject matter was the human physiology and perfect control,not clinical research on it,the
old teachings simply can’t be brushed aside as they deal with things that haven’t changed much over the millennia
and are still relevant for each human.
Example of breathing control leading to much much better physical toughness and mental alertness-the Chinese
art of Qigong.Look that up also.The results are proven..you can see videos also.The aim,I repate is not just to study
Qi as the Chinese call it,but to perfect the moves.Do check out.
Anyways,good we have some positive exchange.
PS-Super busy for a while.Will surely go through the links
Ravi
May 28, 2018 at 7:46 am
@Realtor
Glad you liked it.
As with science, you also have not ever read any books on Western Philosophy (or perhaps philosophy in general)
from either before or after their Enlightenment. It is just as rich, if not much more, than any Eastern Philosophy. I
am aware that Jaggi casually dismisses West because he does not know anything about it intellectually. You should
go through some Philosophy courses from reputed universities. Perhaps I can link some next week. For now, you
can check out the Philosophy of Death course from Yale that I linked above earlier.
Next week, we can talk about the pseudoscience of QiGong and Chi and about Chinese QiGong cults where they
also claim super powers.
There are also many Chi/QiGong based martial arts cults in China and Japan just like we have meditation cults. They
look magni cent to their gullible cult members, just like Jaggi does to ISHA guys posting here, but are easily
exposed whenever anyone who does not believe in their BS comes by and tests them.
Example:
Yanagi Ryuken
youtube. com/watch?v=WN9V4PFUdqg
There are many more like this.
Realtor
May 28, 2018 at 8:17 am
Ravi-Open mindedness and the willingness to try out a new perspective are essential to reach any meaningful
enrichment.
Thanks for bringing in a constructive vibe here.Appreciate it
There are cults around each and everything.But throwing the baby out with the bath water is dangerous.I will go as
far as to say that rejecting yoga/meditation/,Qigong etc as a whole is a bold,brash and unwise perspective.I mean
come on,breath control is used in boxing,weightlifting,singing,sprinting,music creation..you name it.If you opine
that Bruce Lee, Beethoven,Ali have practiced and learnt nothing in life,just because they weren’t into lab
experiments,you will never ever be taken seriously.
If possible for you,please understand one things-Pro, Science is a part of the world,not the other way
around.And,there are many many eld of human pursuit which focus on not,as an example,studying a racer bike
engine and transmission,but rather,to learn how to ride it.It’s a di erent ball game altogether,and not everything
need be examined critically as the whole point is lost that way.Let me put it this way-If not for useful technologies,
science won’t get any traction from the larger population.Yoga clicks with people also because they get tangible for
them,if not lab tested physical and mental results.
The Church was sti ing progress,hence the western Renaissance.Yoga at the very least is harmless,hence no such
thing happened here.Make no mistakes,Sari,caste system,fragmented kindgdoms etc were sti ing India.But Yoga/,
meditation are a di erent ball game.I hope you understand that a white belt is martial arts has no authority or
business judging a tenth Dan black belt .
Anyways,still welcome the openness nally and thank you for that.
Am taking up a new assignment from today so won’t be active for a while,but will surely go through the
links.Anyways,when the focus shifts from dissing to speci c and mutually bene cial discussion,I’m sure that shorter
and less frequent posting will do.
Thanks again and Cheers
Ravi
May 28, 2018 at 10:20 am
@Realtor
All of QiGong/Chi super powers are made up. ALL. Just as all Yoga and meditation superpowers are made up. ALL.
No one contests them as exercise systems though.
Breathing control does not give any super powers either (we are not talking of exercise use). You won’t understand
these things until you obtain an education in the relevant topics.
Your initial willingness to learn is very welcome. But you still need to understand that you have several thousand
hours of study (since we are talking about multiple disciplines) and coursework remaining before you understand
these issues at the standards of a 4-year college degree level from a well-rated institution.
I am saying this as an academic. You are still in a position to BEGIN learning, not in a position to debate. This isn’t an
insult.
 I hope you understand that a white belt is martial arts has no authority or business judging a tenth Dan
black belt .
I have several years of martial arts experience. I very well understand the BS and reality in martial arts. Belts mean
little. They can mean anything. There is little standardization. Anyone can declare themselves as a master and
promote their students as they please, just as Yoga and QiGong masters self-declare expertise.
Professional ghters aside, the majority of black belts in the world can’t defend themselves against a single
untrained, roughneck thug intent on hurting. They likely won’t last more than a few seconds in that ght. Actual
ghts don’t work anything like movie ghts.
The basic ghting techniques are ne, but beyond that, most are just for show and are completely useless in the
chaotic setting of a real ght when someone actually wants to hurt you. FYI, Bruce Lee, unlike Ali, is a movie star.
Was he t and a beautiful and strong specimen – yes. But there is only one record of him actually ghting against
an opponent and the witnesses disagree on what actually happened. But all agree (including Lee and his opponent)
that neither party won de nitively.
 you will never ever be taken seriously.

Don’t worry about me being taken seriously. I just have plain, mainstream opinions that any normally educated
person is expected to have and I question before I accept things – as skeptics are expected to. You have this “never
ever be taken seriously” problem if you keep casually asserting the supernatural, especially on this site.
Realtor
May 28, 2018 at 10:42 am
Ravi,I will read the stu ,but the same stu of going through training applies to you also.What makes you think I
know nothing about thug ghts?Just what?Meet me in the street,and you’ll be tomato sauce in a minute.Yeah I
know about belts..it was an example..can pummel most belt holders on strength alone,in which I have 23 years of
exp.Convert that into hours and minutes.Again,what makes you think I require hours to read through and
understand stu ?Just what do you know about me??? Couldn’t I have a much more than average reading and
comprehension speed???And about Bruce Lee,read reviews on him by Chuck Norris whom he fought and Arny
amongst others.If you think you have more expertise on that area than all these combined,get o weed
immediately
I am willing to have a look.But unfortunately I am dealing with a know all who seems to be an expert in every eld
possible.If you truly are,Then please,educate the wider audience on wider forums where you will get much wider
rebuttals also,if you have the guys.
Trained ghters also work on breathing.If breathing helps with nothing,I dare you to stop it.Seriously.
Seriously,my issue is not with exploration,but with this hubris of yours-I have experience in everything and I put
down everything.Ultimately,since we discussed that life is short,if all that knowledge gives is arrogance,I say to hell
with knowledge.
Anyways,since both of us are busy,I hope we can discuss stu later when I have had a chance to study the links.So
please carry on with your supposed imp work for a while
VJ
May 28, 2018 at 2:49 pm
Realtor: as much as I knew I replied. I don’t want to give guess replies. I feel i don’t know much with con dence.
I felt that you and Ravi were having kind of communication gap so I jumped in. I however still feel the gap of
understanding though. But I think it’s OK.
About Eastern and Western philosophy which you referred, I want to say….yes the ancients were also wise wrt the
time they belonged to. Be it West or East, past or present, human intelligence and excellence has always been
amazing in every eld of life. Bengal renaissance is no less than of Florence. Homer was no less than ashvaghosh.
You read books of French philosophers, sociologists … you will be surprised that how come they don’t know about
Hinduism! Such a great philosophical ocean and Dostoyevsky never mentioned it, the nest writer of his time who
wrote only to portray human behaviour! I am sorry, but so are you sounding as if almost unaware of Greek
philosophy and it’s founders. I would say they were great but not very relevant these days. No book can be the
ultimate wisdom. Saying this is insulting human potential.
For breaths, they say it’s oxygen and all thoughts originate when brain gets oxygen difused blood…and the whole
process. Yes it’s true but I can’t work like that. I tried and I couldn’t. It’s like driving car while looking at the steering
wheel alignment….it’s true that it should be aligned, it’s a perfect indication also of where the wheels are
going…..but we don’t look at steering wheel and we can perfectly drive anywhere….we can live and think and
analyse and read and write without noticing breaths. It’s my personal opinion only though.
Ravi
May 28, 2018 at 7:13 pm
@Realtor
 Couldn’t I have a much more than average reading and comprehension speed???
My apologies then. From what you wrote, it looked like you had worse than average comprehension and had no
exposure at all to any modern thought or sciences, are more likely to read from a blog or watch youtube than a
source book and that I had to be careful in choosing short and compact resources with audiovisual content since
they may not otherwise hold your attention.
If you say that you learn better and faster than an average person, I can just point you to the better and classic
introductions.
Forget about that short course on Physiology and stick to Guyton and Hall.
Supplement it with Lehninger Principles of Biochemistry – by Nelson and Cox
For understanding the West:

The Story of Civilization – Will and Ariel Durand
The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire – Gibbon
For Philosophy intro:

Complete Works by Plato (available for free online).
A History of Western Philosophy – Bertrand Russell.
The later is too short for the topic, but well written for especially the earlier chapters. I can’t recommend any single
comprehensive resource on this topic. But you can supplement it with more complete readings from Kant,
Heidegger and Searl.
On Cults: I pointed to several books in prior posts. You can refer to those.
BTW, please share whether or not you had a spiritual experience and whether you were a part of ISHA at any point.
VJ
May 29, 2018 at 11:27 am
Ravi, you mentioned about Sachin Tendulkar recently that ‘There is an inner component also’. What is that and
what do you mean by that?
Ravi
May 29, 2018 at 4:04 pm
@VJ
I meant genetic and development factors. Or more colloquially – raw talent.
Some long distance bicyclists naturally produce more erythropoietin than others. Their endurance is better as a
result. But taking it arti cially, or using transfusions of one’s own RBC concentrate (packed cells) collected earlier is
regarded as cheating (see blood doping). Others try training at high altitudes to stimulate production of
erythropoietin (lower pressures stimulate production) to compensate.
Michael Phelps has several advantageous anatomical features for his sport in one package.
Some women athletes produce more testosterone than is normal for women. There have been decisions to
exclude such individuals from competing with normal women. Both sides claim discrimination.
If a male athlete’s body makes more testosterone and others do not dope/cheat, he will be at a considerable
advantage in many sports. His body recovers faster from training. He can train more and make more rapid
advances.
Musical prodigies often have perfect pitch that most of us don’t.
Early exposure to said activities or even nutrition or other substance exposure at key points during development,
both in the womb and in childhood also play a role in setting us apart.
My general point is that practice can get you far, but only so far.
I don’t have any speci c factor for Sachin. But it is not realistic to expect to make a Sachin or Kohli out of a random
kid and it most certainly has nothing to do with meditation. Recently, Rashid Khan stated that he only had a TV, not
a coach, to teach him cricket. Well, so do most aspiring kids. But they aren’t becoming Rashid Khans, even with
more opportunity.
Let’s say, their (stars) neurons have slightly better myelin sheaths and conduct impulses a little bit faster. Their
reaction times will be better. If the respective pattern recognition regions of the brain are better developed, they
may be better able to pick the ball from the bowling action or adapt to the pitch faster. With the nervous system,
conditioning helps a lot. So do innate factors. At the top, everyone trains about the same hours and to their limit
and these things can set people apart.
I hope that clari es.
VJ
May 29, 2018 at 4:54 pm
Thank you Ravi. Glad you kept it in physical domain.
Realtor
May 30, 2018 at 3:26 pm
@Ravi-The limitation of a forum is that one cannot get a good grasp of someone’s abilities just through words typed
quickly on a phone amidst poor network conditions sometimes.
Did I have a spiritual experience?Yes.Owing to ISHA or any guru or system?No.Was I ever associated with ISHA?
No.Now the thing is, it’s such a tremendous,uncomparable and dead certain jolt of energy that to try and study its
nuerology seems pointless.Certainly, anything in life or death pales in comparison to the fresh functioning of the
faculties.And I intend to neither become a guru nor open a cult,and am anyways employed in a highly knowledge
oriented but not physical sciences oriented industry, so don’t feel the need to go too much into the scienti c
background of everything.Having said that,you may be working in the same industry,so your awareness on these
works is perfectly legitimate and has my respect
So,all I’m saying is that spiritual growth has no contradictions with any amount of advanced education and
exposure,but is a latent part of everyone with the best or worst of education, exposure or place in society.The
tangible di erence in living experience I talked about is from rst hand experience.
I didn’t have any genetic advantage like the athletes you mentioned.But I have an uncanny level of physical and
mental coordination now.Whatever the hell I want to learn I can grasp now at an unbelievable pace.There is no
pent up fear/insecurity/ulterior motive inside and things seem to automatically fall into place.This is all rst hand
experience.
Yet again,this has NO contradiction whatsoever with science, technology or any happening in the modern world.I
consume tons of material on economics,geopolitics, nance just for fun.At NO point does the notion of being more
knowledge than anyone else arises inside.
Again,thanks for sharing some of these sources.As I said, will go through in bite size pieces as I get some free
time.But again, It’s NOT going to create any knowledge high ground in me.All the high grounds have been razed
down permanently and I have no shame to admit that I am no more important than any dog,cat or mosquito,as a
living organism.So am a child with children,a saint with saints and a sinner with sinners.No judgementality
whatsoever.All my posts here are also spur of the moment responses typed in under 5 mins.
@VJ-There is no misunderstanding with Ravi here.He is equally right in his own experience.What you mentioned
about the car being in balance is valid point.All I saying is that till a point that takes e ort.At one point, everything
shatters, including the e ort and the one who makes the e ort.Then everything is balanced on its own,happening
spontaneously.
@Both-One thing I can say for certain is that for folks who went through any such experience,their eyes are
whiter,clearer and much steadier than those of ordinary folks.It’s because of operating from some other centre of
the brain/mind/self/consciousness.. whatever.I say whatever because if one’ sorted for life/all lives/no need for
another life..whatever..it doesn’t even matter what that stu is made up of,coz it seems a petty pursuit unless one
is a professional in the area and draws his bread from it.As per my judgement,Jaggi Vasudev is certainly one such
dude.Does it make him am expert on any speci c subject?Nope unless he put in e orts in the direction.So yes,I
myself will agree with the title of the thread in terms of knowledge of the physical sciences.But has he lived every
bre of his being to the extent that proof,disproof..whatever are trivial pursuits?Yes, absolutely.The beauty of this is
then that one can be the most hardcore astrophysicist in his profession,but yet undergo the same transformation
which is fundamental to all.
So happy scienti c exploration to you.All roads lead to the same ultimate destination PS-This one took 7 minutes
VJ
May 30, 2018 at 4:22 pm
Realtor, I don’t agree that both of you are saying same thing. I am surprised you are denying that no
communication gap is there between you and Ravi.
….”Did I have a spiritual experience?Yes…” Can you please explain it further what kind of spiritual experience! I am
excited that you are saying that the experience is rst hand and it doesn’t belong to Jagdish Vasudev.
….”So,all I’m saying is that spiritual growth has…” What is spiritual growth and what is spirituality rst? Its not
physical according to you I suppose. If you mean that its some sort of ‘altered state’ than its pretty psychological.
Please enlighten. (Here I only mean ‘please clarify/ explain/ make understand. I am not expecting JV’s or any kind of
enlightenment nor do I believe in that. Using the word ‘enlighten’ as a synonym of explanation is a sarcasm actually
for those who substitute spirituality over psychology).
…”It’s NOT going to create any knowledge high ground in me.All the high grounds have been razed down
permanently and I have no shame to admit that I am no more important than any dog,cat …” To me Realtor, you
seem perfectly contradicting with perfect awareness of it. Its like if I say, “I always tell lies only”. What would you
make out, this very statement is the truth or a lie? How, how not?
“….car being in balance is valid point.All I saying is that till a point that takes e ort…..”I don’t understand what do
you want to say here. I tried giving you example in reference to focusing on breathing and proving the breathing is
necessary and not focus on it. Yes in the beginning when anyone falls in a di erent medium its di cult, with
practice its easy. your 7 minutes is because of that and you can type more also in less time. There is nothing
spiritual in it. If this is spiritual, than everyone is spiritual in many a thing.
Realtor
May 30, 2018 at 4:45 pm
VJ-Appreciate that we don’t want too much mysti cation in words such as ‘enlightenment’.My request is,also let’s
drop any special empahsis on ‘spritual’ vs ‘nuerological’,’physical’ etc and let’s consider something very very simple.
What one calls ‘me’,’my background’,’my knowledge’ etc etc is basically an accumulation of experience bundled in
nuerons.Now consider this-When you say ‘I am sitting here’,just for a moment think,what is this ‘I’?The head?The
heart?The limbs?The ass?Just what?If one really really looks closely,this ‘I’ is just an accumulated idea-‘I am a scholar
sitting g here with x purpose’.’I am a contractor sitting here for my payment’s..Etc etc.
At the very base point of breath release,when the fresh breath isn’t even formed,all of this goes boom.Yet there is a
presence.I can vouch my life on it-This can be experienced after few years of practice.There is just dead
silence.None of the accumulated knowledge or personality,yet some presence.You don’t even say ‘There is a
Presence’,’Eureka’ or whatever..Words and thoughts are all gone long back.There,the old ‘I’ disintegrates and
something much much bigger takes over.The much talked of ‘experience’ is just every old idea,concept about this ‘I’
blasting away and your eyes,ears,every sense going through a reset.Your old idea of ‘I’ kind of dies.
Yes,names,concepts,the ability to learn,talk remain,but you’re now just using them as tools,and the fun bit is,hence
the damn things now operate beautifully,in perfect rythum.The restrictive idea of the ‘I’ within one physical and
mental setup blasts o ..So essentially every being and thing is the ‘I’now.It’s akin to the ultimate expansion.
That’s why there’s no contradiction,as the same singular energy powers you,the so called ‘me’ and Ravi.In my
case,I’m dead sure of it..Hence don’t subscribe to di erences of personality.
I have learnt many thing really well really quick without much practice also When all is the same energy,mingling
is e ortless
VJ
May 30, 2018 at 6:01 pm
Realtor, this is no less mystical when you say all this about the “I”.I don’t understand why this way of disintegration
is so much hyped. When I say “I am sitting”, It is being referred to one who understands it and takes responsibility.
When you are driving the car and high speed and tra c inspector gives signal to stop, who is being asked to stop?
The car! Because its car which is speeding high. The Wheels! Because they are rolling speedily. The petrol! Because
ultimately that is fueling the machine. Or you! Why? because its you who are taking responsibility, who are
equipped of understanding the doing and not doing of that act. If its a driver less car then de nitely you are not
asked to stop. I mean to say, Its your brain that understands. If the limbs, the hips, the skin and much more is
chopped out and you can still understand, you would know what is “I”. You would know that what they have done
to you and now asking about the “I”.
And please, its you who is a scholar, quick learner, almost master (as you claim and unclaim at the same time). You
are as good as Ravi here or JV or Osho or anyone in the ability to bring out the truth as i genuinely feel about you. It
doesn’t sound logical that you say its something you cant explain. If so, then I am sorry your all claims about
energies being in harmony with existence, extraordinary abilities to learn or whatever are all vain. I don’t know but
may be, perhaps you still know that why are you making such claims!
I am sorry for being harsh with you, its only because I feel sad when such talent uselessly advocates the case he
himself is not fully sure of. Making claims on the words of others (may be of high regard for you) just makes one
prone for the day when he thinks he wasted so much time. if an average person does it, i am still in the position to
settle. I said all this, because I have been like you, almost.
Realtor
May 30, 2018 at 9:19 pm
VJ-I’ll be very mild with you because I need some very small pointing out here.Please bear with me.
All physical,medical and social sciences deal with study that can help a person in the common noun sense of
it.So,when we say ‘The retina’ in medicine,’The voter’s in political sciences,’The chairperson’ in corporate law,we’re
talking about commonly applicable principles useful in common circumstances.Is this mystical by any chance?
However,in one unique individual,there is a personal set of competencies,experiences, knowledge,personal traits

etc.Anything fancy here?
Now,we have invested a lot in the aforementioned sciences,and they follow a logical methodologies and have
created common bene ts.So far,so good.
But,when it comes to one unique individual,apart from sciences like psychology etc,there is some part where the
onus of development is on the individual,no external science can help.You can argue creating spiritual experiences
in labs,but then they can’t be matched by the natural con guration of things.It’s simply a lock that only opens from
within.Either you can argue all your life or try it its way..
Now,you talked of the hype on splitting.I simply want to point out that while we read tomes on possible
extraterrestrial life,the average human doesn’t even observe his own body
movements,gestures,breath,thoughts..all the stu going on within the only space only he experiences directly in
the world.Science didn’t begin with life on the planet.Surely some curious folks would have started this journey of
wondering, thinking,discovering.
So my simple query is-When discovering the immensity of your living form has tons of value in terms of a much
enhanced perception and balance and peace in life,with absolutely NO contradiction with any ‘common noun’
science,and is hence a net win win,why would anyone NOT show wonder and curiosity towards this???It’s like you
have an HD version of your life right in front,but you want to reject it.Is that an intelligent choice?
But,this inner lock is absolutely unique to one.So quoting any research won’t help.Knowledge or speculation
gathered from outside won’t help.As an analogy,even in physics, gravitation and quantum mechanics work on
di erent scales of objects.What will a wide guy who wants to study very small particles do?Use quantum mech or
open forum and discuss for 5 years on gravity as the universal approach?I’m sure we understand the di erence
between learned and wise here.
So,this individual stu ,where none of your textbooks can help,has its own set of rules.Just arguing ad in nitum
about ‘altered state’s or this or that state can’t help an individual state which has to be grown just like a
plant,waters and fertilized.Again,’altered state’s is the most ridiculous possible word.Nature wants things to be at a
lower energy level.Example,you nd 100s of dumb people,because it’s easy to be dumb.To be learned, you have to
go through,as Ravi said,hours and hours of training and years of study.It’s easy to be sloppy.Being damn good at
anything requires years of practice.
Similarly,most people are walking, working, talking as if they’re asleep.They won’t notice where their hands and feet
are, won’t look quickly at something, won’t react quickly.Psychologically, they’re slaves of upbringing, circumstances
and atmosphere.Even very learned ones are slaves of their limited perspectives and interests.So I ask you,just like
humankind reached new frontiers when ight,space travel were invented,why do we want to,at an individual
level,avoid new frontiers??We’ve taken for granted that this awareness level has no bene t even if it’s somehow
possible.And we’re missing new frontiers in inner growth which only enhences outer pursuits with more energy and
poise coming in.It’s as good a deal as possible.
But it has its own method and juts like any other development,requires practice.Judging me won’t help.I told you
about breath.I told you I vouch my life on it.The simple thing called alertness when applied to every breath that’s
happening to you while you’re busy with some trivial diversion has pure magic embedded in it,but hard and sincere
practice is needed.Here,the keyword is not knowledge but practice.I gave athletic examples just to illustrate how
hard the practice is.
Forget Osho, forget Jaggi,this is,as I said,a case to case method where one works on one’ own inner
constitution.That’s the only way to know.Just like no matter how much you study or discuss an athlete,to become
one,you have to shut up and train.Period.
My only point in visiting this thread is to point out that while you’re spending a ton of energy in discarding
someone’s passing comments on his non-expertise area,you are not even looking one bit at the core subject
making the person newsworthy in the rst place because other critical websites in countries with zero tradition of
real inner growth (extreme alertness,razor sharp intellect,poise,grace, contentment, happiness) follow the
monotonic argument of ‘Which experiment suggests this’ll do the same.Be a bit original,I’d say.
And the experiment here is to watch the breath and everything around keenly.I’m sorry but that’s all I can say.Only
one who practices and goes deep will see stu himself.If some crook taught you false meditation, remember,even
experiments fail few times.Shit happens.Move on
VJ
May 31, 2018 at 2:04 pm
Realtor, I often come across an argument when they say, ‘that even if you do PhD in swimming, you can not learn
swimming without actually stepping into the pond.’ There can be many such examples for this.
I would say, that swimming has a scienti c basis and all studies support it. Doing and knowing are di erent but not
opposite. Meditation, kapalbhati, Aalom-anulom, bhramari are all time wastes. They are at the best not harmful for
many. May be for few they work little bit. For few I still believe they do harm. No study supports them. It has always
been a way to push people with an excuse that everything cant have a scienti c basis. It is not so. They said love,
compassion, beauty cant be studied by making fragments. Now, they explained almost everything in words about
beauty, love and all.
Religions, cults, beliefs and godmen have always proved their superiorities on the basis of scienti c principles. I
remember someone saying that conservation of energy was discovered much earlier in India and its written in
Geeta, only replace Aatma with Energy. When atom bomb was invented they said brahamashtra was already there.
Now may be we will see a ying machines on gyroscopic principles they will say Ravan already had Pushpak
Vimaan.
JV was claiming one day that an american university proved that Gama rays develop in the brains of those who
practice his yoga. Yes you are right shit happens, and I am OK with it. Experiments fail, yes mine was failed too. And
I have moved on.
My mistake was which I learnt that I substituted belief over skepticism, short cuts over genuine academics, greed
over patience. Now I will not do those mistakes. I will believe my logic than someone else’s.
Please go up on my comment on (February 8, 2018 at 7:33 pm) for better clarity of what I want to say.
Realtor
May 31, 2018 at 4:01 pm
VJ-I am noone to comment upon or suggest you a way.You’re more than welcome to follow whatever your good
reason suggests.
Genuine academics is good,but again,there is lot of it in non physical science areas such as economics,ecology,
developmental nance..this is useful stu and without a working world,the physical sciences won’t be
supported.So,to say that to understand one’s own systemn purely from an awareness perspective,one needs to go
through tomes of physical sciences research would be a stretch on many brilliant brains who are anyways doing
useful genuine academics.In today’s world,if a currency collapses,or a sanction is declared,or few large banks
collapse,nuclear physics research budgets could very well be the rst casualty.
So,the urge to know one’s true nature is nascent within all,regardless of background.If physical sciences studies
don’t support meditation,I will not wait for their conclusions to gain control on my mind and system,as who knows
how long this life is,and I am surely doing genuine and useful work anyways.Let’s not forget that even the scientist
carries out paid work.Why should someone carry out unpaid study on his time when he anyways is contributing to
society,generating taxes that feed the scientist amongst others,when his motive is to gain peace and clarity for
himself,and he himself is the best judge of the impediments therein?If you have to build muscle,would you follow
the one with muscles or look up scienti c manuals and con rm whether the great physicists have carried out a
study?
Many animals swim without any idea of scienti c studies on the same.What if I want to swim,not do a postmortem
on its mechanics?I’ll simply either ask someone who knows it and learn,or learn myself through trial and error.I
didn’t refer any scienti c studies or lack thereof before learning to go underwater.I tried and it happened,and I’m
happy.
Lot of times the woods get missed for the trees.Self awareness has nothing to do with Brahmastra,Pushpak and
what not.I don’t subscribe to any of it myself.These are,at best,allegories for folks of old times when we had no
electricity, information ow,democracy,global interconnectedness etc.So I said myself,forget what X or Y guru said.I
even say,forget shastras,rituals,omens,demons,gods,the whole rigarmole.
Yet,self knowledge is the best possible thing to pursue and accomplish.I am not aware of the greed you mentioned
that led you to some shortcuts.Maybe someone promised X result in Y days with Z form of activity.I don’t
know.What I know for sure is that if the aim is to know who you really are,the desire is intense,and work
sincere,one nds his answer.
I have good academic chips myself on my very large shoulders.I have zero need to comment here or anywhere
about my outlook on these things,as am already doing well and have no desire for followers,minions or fans.I pay
taxes and have no legal or criminal cases against me.Hence,I’m doing my bit in society,and have all the right in the
world to de ne my own pursuits and burning desires.
What I absolutely agree with you on is to believe your own logic.Yes, you’re completely true.Even my own
experiences are derived of self experimentation and testing,not download from any guru or tradition.
So seems like we don’t have any di erences actually,just that one learns from other perspectives,and I am glad to
learn from yours.As I said,I can put my neck on the line for things I’ve seen for myself.If everyone follows self
logic,deduction,rumination and meditation (which is completely di erent from the breath exercises you
mentioned,I’m talking of laser sharp focus on very very minute breaths that commoners don’t even notice),then
free thought will truly be achieved.
My best wishes for your journey!
Cheers
VJ
May 31, 2018 at 5:21 pm
Realtor,
“If you have to build muscle,would you follow the one with muscles or look up scienti c manuals and con rm
whether the great physicists have carried out a study?….” Yes. Only if you change the word physicist with
physiologist.
The swimming thing was an example out of many only to mention how people coin into get into water. However
the is a di erence. Di erence is you jumped into water because you saw someone. This is also a study Realtor. You
ask how should be the movements of your limbs. you analyse the risks and opportunities in your way and then you
decide to go into it.
The case of meditation is di erent. People who can’t explain, can’t give logic, don’t exhibit any symptoms of
improvements or specialty in them, they use the swimming example as an argument tool for the defense of their
fancy. However when I came across its usage more than once I could conclude this tool is also borrowed. Probably
their so-called guru used it on them as a tradition.
‘Greed’, I meant as Ravi has put it in a beautiful way above, ”That humans are greedy in a sense that they want easy
answers of complex questions”. They don’t want to go through the long pain of derivation and want a one liner
result. Their this laziness, this greed to get the ultimate answer, the demanding market of this mindset is exploited
by the gurus.
For me if physical pain is spared somehow I think as of now that the most pleasurable aspect of life is the ability to
see the reality of life with most accuracy in given time. I know the idea of ultimate reality is not beyond time. The
ultimate meaning of life and existence can at the best be a ne guess. That all answers are probably not possible.
I see di erences in our perspectives unlike your claim.
I am sorry, I mostly see my grammatical and typing mistakes after I have posted it. I am not as good in this
language also as you and many others. However I am glad we are communicating.
Realtor
May 31, 2018 at 6:55 pm
VJ-Di erences in perspective are bound to be there as we are two di erent people with di erent stories.Infact,only
dumb people will agree with anything,so di erence is a positive sign.
Language is imperfect at its base.If there is a need to communicate something where common experience or
structure is missing,analogies and examples are the best bet,and I’m not exactly a professional story teller to come
with a billion Having said that,it doesn’t mean it’s borrowed.
We do agree on the real and moot issue which supercedes any minor di erences of perspective-The desire to see
life in all its clarity as you said.I agree with that wholeheartedly.
My only point is that there is an intrinsic aspect to this clarity also,which any science can at most point to as a
‘common noun’ problem,but in my own case,is the only reality I can authentically claim to have undergone,not
studied or derived.
In this reality is the sum of all life experiences and tendencies of not ‘a human’,’a brain’,’a mind’,but poor old ‘me’.
I am not interested in miracles,promises of heaven or what not but simply ‘Who am I’,coz clearly whatever I point
out as ‘me’ has a nite de nition under nite conditions,but something seems to carry on when I’m no longer at
work,with people,with concepts,with news..Even when I sleep, there is some mechanism going on.
So with careful observation,one gradually starts experiencing a gap between observer and whatever one calls
oneself.That gradually shows him directly that personality, knowledge,thought,emotion,physical movement are not
‘him’,but things around a deeper ‘him’.This is in no way avoidance of hard work.It’s arduous work,as societal and
self programming hard wires these sensations with self identi cation,and immense e ort is needed to see for
oneself that the real ‘I’ is a very base observing faculty which directs everything else at a lightning pace.This is how
nature has wired us,so can’t make this simple fact to forcefully t any experimental setup.
Just like in science,we cannot change the majority of how the universe is,but at max discover things.So yes,If I have
to understand a molecule,I’ll put it under microscopic test.If I have to understand who I am,then the only possible
method is to keenly observe the constituent parts without interference and see for oneself that my ‘self’ is some
deep intelligence independent of all worldly identities.
The tangible bene t of the above is freedom from the stranglehold of false identity and a
relaxed,peaceful,smooth,energetic existence which I’m sure scientists would also want.
So no contradiction between the inner and the outer.They are di erent setups and hence have di erent methods
of exploration,but are both driven by deep curiosity and hard evaluation,and evey human deserves both.That’s
where I say no contradictions,coz believes,personalities and occupations apart,we all want peace and happiness.
Cheers
Realtor
May 31, 2018 at 8:12 pm
VJ-Just a humble epilogue that occured to me.Firstly,thanks for correcting me on the physiologist bit.My bad :-).I
appreciate the grammatical errors you mentioned.That shows signs of humanity.Machines are perfect,but also
dead Even I make typos in my posts,but in the interest of the overall theme,carry on.
The real problem in the World causing ISIS,World Wars,nuclear weapons,riots etc is this ‘I’ thing.I am a
‘Muslim’,’American’,’Communist’,’White’,’Leftist’…yada yada is the cause of all the ‘I/Us’ vs ‘Him/They’ con ict.If each
human knows who he is,formless,timeless energy,imagine the trillions of dollars saved and millions of lives
reshaped that can be harnessed for science.It’s a very sound business proposal.And I’m sure business sense need
be ‘sensed’ and not lab proved So knowing who one really is is the best pursuit one can undertake, regardless of
his role in society in any professional capacity and any level of education or exposure.
Cheers
Ravi
June 2, 2018 at 9:04 am
@Realtor
 The limitation of a forum is that one cannot get a good grasp of someone’s abilities just through words typed
quickly on a phone
From a phone typed message, I cannot get a good grasp of your language skills, which I don’t have much interest in.
We all make typos. But I can get a very good grasp of someone’s understanding of the world when they they
Chakras / Chi / QiGong / “perfect reception of cosmos” / Animal Telepathy.
 am anyways employed in a highly knowledge oriented but not physical sciences oriented industry, so don’t
feel the need to go too much into the scienti c background of everything
That’s ne. I have no NEED to study humanities. But I do so because I want to understand the world. You won’t get
far if you treat education and study as just for degrees and money. It is for REAL enlightenment, not the make-
believe kind.
it’s such a tremendous,uncomparable and dead certain jolt of energy that to try and study its nuerology

seems pointless
It is especially important to neurology because of that. We have a huge number of accounts of the mystical
experience and plenty of empirical data.
Sorry to pop your bubble, but it appears to be a type of epileptic phenomenon. So yeah, it is a jolt of energy
(electric) alright. All those special sensations are associated with normal epilepsy as well. I know, it feels a lot nicer
to think of God and Cosmos as the cause, rather than a mis/altered ring of the brain.
 Whatever the hell I want to learn I can grasp now at an unbelievable pace.
So why haven’t you directed that ability at hard to learn things? Are you brilliant at Math for instance? As in, not just
doing some calculations for a job, but that you can pick up a top math journal and understand the latest paper?
 I consume tons of material on economics,geopolitics, nance just for fun.

It does not take brilliance to read news. That is more of leisure reading. Sure, it is a bit more serious if you are paid
to be a nancial analyst in an investment rm.
 All my posts here are also spur of the moment responses typed in under 5 mins.
This one took 7 minutes
Please don’t. Take time. Respect other people’s time. More so than with Email. You were the one who complained
about this thread being too lengthy. So distill and be thoughtful. Don’t just blurt out anything you think of in 5 min.
This is not a race.
 Jaggi Vasudev is certainly one such dude.

I actually don’t doubt that Jaggi had a mystical experience. It is so banal and has nothing to do with enlightenment,
that I would take almost anyone’s word for it, except perhaps that of a politician. What I don’t believe is that it made
him wiser to how the world works (on which he has endless uninformed opinion). I have no idea if he was this good
with managing people from before or after.
 You can argue creating spiritual experiences in labs,but then they can’t be matched by the natural
con guration of things.
How do you know that? The experiments I pointed to were on psilocybin. It is used in a lab setting, because you can
know the exact dosage and measure responses. That adjusts for avoidable variations. Psilocybin is a natural
compound present in a huge number of mushrooms. It interacts with key receptors, which results in your so called
mystical experiences. So is it arti cial?
For me, this dichotomy between natural and arti cial is meaningless. You will think so too when you understand
about cells and receptors. All that matters is what ts what, structurally – locks and keys.
So do you think, using a chemical substance in any form, “natural” or otherwise is cheating? Where do you think our
Vedic ancestors got their mystical inspirations? From a plant they describe and venerate a lot called Soma. See Rig
Veda. At the core, it is all about messing with the brain – either with chemicals (many tribes use plants and
mushrooms or even fasting which leads to ketoacidosis, also sets you up for this – this is probably why many
religious traditions emphasize it), electromagnetic elds (lab settings), Newtonian forces (Spinning Darwishes in Su
traditions) or by messing with breathing (our meditation practices). Some have innately vulnerable (not gifted, but
vulnerable) brains to some of these stresses.
 It’s simply a lock that only opens from within.

As I said, over and over, we can open this lock from outside in any number of ways. You can pretend that is not true
because you feel it diminishes all the time and e ort you put into it, while someone else can it from a pill. What can
you do? Shrug.
 the average human doesn’t even observe his own body movements
Just like you. You did not try to study Biology to understand your own body. So why are you concerned with
GeoPolitics? :-). Don’t you think you should rst understand how your body works rather than what people are
arguing about on the other side of the world – hey, that’s your reasoning :-).
Don’t you think you should rst start with what is well-established about your body and mind, rather than with that
which obviously constitutes a lot of hand waving and self-declared experts who cannot demonstrate anything at all?
Don’t build your house on (intellectual) sand. Start on a good foundation, then you can explore the unknowns, not
the other way round.
What you are doing here is amateur philosophy. It always ends badly. It will look profound to you, but not to
anyone with any degree of familiarity with the real thing. People have been discussing these for at least 3000 years.
Please start with a proper study of Philosophy including Philosophy of Self / Mind. Combine that with Psychology.
Read college readings, not those red meat books in mass market on Psychology. And of course, you will need
Neuro Science to understand the material underpinnings. A reading of Psychiatry helps as well. It is a better
grounded perspective than Psychology in many ways, but is more narrow for good reasons.
 It’s like you have an HD version of your life right in front

Reading all the ISHA commenters in this thread, I don’t get the sense they have a HD insight into anything. Their
sight seems to be worse than an old VHS tape. They (and you) seem to have a wonderful sense of con dence on
what you think you are seeing. But I see no insights or arguments – just a sense of magni cent certainty. As a
science guy, I know the importance of having clarity about uncertainty. Facing uncertainty, with quantitative clarity
is a good part of modern thought and enlightenment. The mystical types seem to utterly lack that.
 But,this inner lock is absolutely unique to one.So quoting any research won’t help.
You think that because you don’t understand research. You probably have never done any of the empirical kind.
Research always helps, with just about everything. It is just that some of it is harder than others to get it right.
And no, your “lock” is not unique at all. This is the problem with us people. We all assume that our lives are special.
They are not. Read about the Forer e ect. Literally no one in India understands it. Little surprise then, that
everyone thinks Astrology is real.
 So,this individual stuff,where none of your textbooks can help

How many textbooks have you read after you got your degrees? None? I think you have a lot to gain if you start
reading textbooks again. This time, read them without exams as the goal.
 arguing ad in nitum about ‘altered state’s or this or that state can’t help an individual state which has to be
grown just like a plant,waters and fertilized
Are you saying that Botany and Agricultural science textbooks won’t help you better grow things? You just have very
little respect and awareness for knowledge pursuits and dismiss them too casually. Our research methods
completely rede ned the world in unimaginable ways in the last few centuries. Please don’t underplay that.
 They won’t notice where their hands and feet are, won’t look quickly at something, won’t react quickly.
That’s a good thing. I can either pay attention to my hand movements or I can pay attention to important things
that contribute to the society and the world. India will improve, not when people pay attention to where their
hands and feet are, but to actually understanding their educational curriculum, building on it, learning to think
rationally and critically and surpass the current scienti c super powers. Else, the country will always be dominated
by those who can do that.
 So I ask you,just like humankind reached new frontiers when ight,space travel were invented,why do we
want to,at an individual level,avoid new frontiers??
What makes you think you broke new frontiers than the rest of us, with your meditation? Simply saying so won’t cut
it. Show us what these meditation types have super-humanly accomplished.
ISHA must be full of over-achievers by now, because they are all in so much sync with the cosmos and all. Is that the
case? Or are they all just sitting around, doing free work for Jaggi’s empire, as he assures them all that they are all
super awesome?
 We’ve taken for granted that this awareness level has no bene t even if it’s somehow possible.
So show! Jaggi says that their enlightened people just perceive the reality as it is. Things just fall into place since
they are in sync with the cosmos or what not. So how do we test them? Do you think if we put these guys in a
cricket eld, they will just perceive what ball will be bowled and will always play the right stroke? They will be so
good such that Kohli will be embarrassed about his “outer” training? After all, these guys, according to the BS of
Jaggi, have precognition super powers. Surely, they can foresee a quarter second into the future. That should be
enough. Do you think that will be the reality if we put them of a cricket eld against a real team? Or do you think
they will be like sloppy movie stars playing those bene t matches?
 to become one,you have to shut up and train.Period.

That only works for real skills. Not imaginary things.
For example, no amount of Chi training will give you armor. You can train all your life if you like. You can fully
convince yourself though.
youtube .com/watch?v=ufsko8SQNGY
Such wonderful breathing exercises as he weaves some invisible force, as if under tension over his arm as armor.
Contd…
Ravi
June 2, 2018 at 10:10 am
contd…
 you are not even looking one bit at the core subject making the person newsworthy
I did. He is a cult leader. In India, people don’t know what cults are, how people fall prey or how cult psychology
works. That is the core, not his BS philosophy and grand standing.
He claims he can just perceive things but does not perceive how little he understands the world. We are perfectly
OK with Ramana or Vivekananda not knowing science well. They know that they don’t know. Jaggi does not even
perceive that.
It is also how no one around him can correct him, because the cult leader is always right to the cult members.
Now, of course you will say, Jaggi has his expertise and I don’t have the capacity to understand that, just as he
cannot understand mine. For that my answer is, without any objective way to verify expertise, it is simply imaginary
(goes for your meditation bene ts too). The martial arts world that you have an interest in, is full of charlatans who
claim prowess that they cannot prove.
If I drink co ee, my mental clarity goes up. We can test that empirically. Why is your mental clarity from meditation
immune to empiricism? And perhaps you do have an improvement. Then we can measure that and compare it with
x mg of ca eine. Any psychological e ects you claim can always be tested one way or another. And we even agree
on some e ects, such as a diminishing of self, ego (we can design clever questionnaires for that).. just not cosmic
tuning or whatever other hand-waving.
I can tell if a swimmer or a runner has skills. For Jaggi, I certainly can tell that the signs of expertise, as he claims
them – ability to JUST perceive, healing powers, precognition, super power termination etc are either lies or
delusions (if not both).
there is lot of it in non physical science areas such as economics,ecology, developmental nance

This is not about the primacy of non-physical sciences, as you are painting it. This is about non-rational non-science
non-sense. No one is questioning say poetry here, just because it is not a science or not physical, it has value too
(we agree that we stretch metaphors) – we are just questioning delusional thinking.
 I will not wait for their conclusions to gain control on my mind and system
Do you think if that Filipino martial arts master said: I believe in Chi. Just because science does not validate it does
not mean I can’t control it, and then proceeded to badly injure himself, we can rightly assume he is foolish and
deluded? He believes in his powers just as strongly as you do. He feels he tested them privately, in perhaps all
honesty as well. Can you show me ONE Chi master who can reliably prove it to everyone? Not just once, mind you,
any street magician can do that.
Can you show one ISHA guy, their top-most member, who has healing powers like Jaggi claims? He does not have to
prove how it works, but he does have to prove that it works at all, if he makes claims.
The simple reality is: They are a cult. They believe in nutty things. They can’t perceive even basic reality like the rest
of us normal people, let alone some super reality. And I prefer that my country men and women do not fall for this
BS.
 Why should someone carry out unpaid study

You rst need a whole lot of training to know how to conduct studies. With a PhD and one or more postdocs, it
often takes about 10 years (not always of course) for a scientist to be trusted with grant money. Don’t worry. No
one is really expecting you to do a study or anyone will take it seriously, if you do. Medical pseudoscience studies,
done by non-scientists are often hilariously awed in design, let alone execution.
 I have good academic chips myself on my very large shoulders.
Then act like you have them. Education isn’t meant to give you a piece of paper for a job and then you go back your
old ways of thinking. It is supposed to fundamentally change your thinking. If you have academic chips, your writing
should re ect that. At least write with as much rigor as you would in a comment forum for whatever discipline you
studied.
 have all the right in the world to de ne my own pursuits and burning desires.
That you do. But the world does not owe you an immunity from counter view points when you publicly declare your
passions and beliefs as truths, that too in a rationalist / skeptic web site.
I am not really against you doing any meditation practice that feels nice to you. That is not a cult topic and it is your
business, just like religion. You have a right to your irrationality and whatever you see as your happiness. You don’t
even have to explain to anyone.
But when take assertive positions on reality, claim walls and limits around sciences that you have not bothered to
study, there is obviously a disagreement.
 What I absolutely agree with you on is to believe your own logic.

There are no really personal versions of Logic. There is just ONE. Please study Formal Logic. Coursera should have
an intro course on that.
If I say, that’s your logic – I mean that’s your faulty logic (mine can be faulty as well). We have to measure ourselves
against the formal standard. We get our individual opinions and beliefs, but not our own facts and logic.
Post on Chinese cults later.
Realtor
June 2, 2018 at 10:15 am
Ravi-This ping pong will go nowhere.As far as going through the links you suggested,I unequivocally welcomed
it,but of course discussing anything on that will need some time,as it’s not exactly not the only item on my plate.
The only alternative at the moment is to put my own perspective and experience,which you will go to immense
lengths to put down,citing the lack of the same readup from option one.So essentially,we’re in a logjam.I decided to
spend some time on the links,but you came back with your great exposition on martial arts and chi where I had to
come back.
So,if your REAL enlightenment does you any good,all the best.Yes and I know my math,you don’t hold a copyright
on it.If you can’t convince someone with my education and IQ,leave aside spiritual experience,you have a very hard
time in succeeding with larger audiences.And I guess that’s what you want,right? Promotion of the scienti c way,as
de ned by you.Your methodology is only driving away the very people you want to in uence.So yes,learn a bit of
humanities..how to position your product.If going around in loops pleases you,please do it with the entire army of
4-5 contributors here.Overall,those might be the only success stories for you.I for one,am done with this endless to
and fro.Will go through the links and comment only if I feel the need to.
JV is doing what he’s doing.You are not pulling o one person from him or from any other teacher through this
forum atleast,because of your snobbery.If you feel spiritual experiences can be lab grown,why don’t you shut up JV
directly?Hold a press conference,create news..I’ll be the rst person willing to undergo a public trial.As for martial
arts and you knowledge on it,I told you, let’s have a televised brawl.Keep a hospital bed booked for yourself in
advance though.
As far as this thread goes,I’m done now.I owe you no time or explanation or rebuttal legally.And yeah,the email id I
provided in comments is invalid.It’s one of the very basic website design techniques that the great physicists here
have forgotten.
Cheers and sayonara forever
Ravi
June 2, 2018 at 11:42 am
@Realtor
 If you can’t convince someone with my education and IQ

Yes Sir. If you say so. The meditation sure seems to have xed your ego.
 because of your snobbery.

Says the “High IQ” guy.
This isn’t a negotiating platform. You say some nice things about science, and I meet you half way and say some
nice things about your beliefs. There are other places for that.
 If you feel spiritual experiences can be lab grown

I am not telling you about my feelings. Subjective feelings are for you and your meditation experiences. I am just
informing you of the current state of established science on the topic. While not my area, I actually meet with
people working on these fungal compounds, studying their e ects on the nervous systems.
 Hold a press conference,create news

I think, you should worry less about advising me on what should be my ideal approach, especially when you are on
the other side.
There are rationalists who write, there are those who respond in boards, those of us who go on TV shows and there
are those of us who go to villages and demonstrate pseudoscience.
You do things your way, we do ours, as we see t. I do not expect sudden change. I do not have delusions of being a
great change maker personally. I am just one of many.
 let’s have a televised brawl.

A very high IQ solution indeed. You must meditate on it.
You can win every ght, still does not prove your Chi.
 And yeah,the email id I provided in comments is invalid

No one is interested. I am not even the moderator.
 Cheers and sayonara forever

Up to you. Works for me.
VJ
June 2, 2018 at 12:24 pm
Realtor, I disagree and that is not about the minor issues. I don’t know why are you proving an imposed alignment. I
am trying in the best of my capacity to tell you in very black and white what I think. You are trying so hard (or may
be it’s easy for you, or only this is easy for you) to blurr every clarity. See, I have very little doubt about my ability to
understand atleast here, (yes many things are di cult for me to understand) but it’s like I reading Deepak Chopra,
or Ravi Shankar or osho or anyone for that matter who instead of remaining on to the point keep on showering
what they have to say, in a very forgetful way whether or not that is required. I am sorry, reading you and seeing
this strange ability of yours I am more repelled from meditation, breathing observation exercise and all.
Ravi, even if there should be one objective logic, still holder or believers of that logic are many. Any logic howsoever
stated can not be outlawed the personal domain of that person who states it.
I mean, even if there is a plain standardised way of thinking and reasoning, there are con icting statements. I have
never been into the lobby of scientists but I feel it’s quite possible there also.
About the co ee thing, can someone really get co ee e ect without co ee? Can clarity of thought enhance by any
meditation {I am assuming standard de nitions of meditation- it’s not out of mind but beyond mind. It’s not
sleeping but a wakeful experience (not even observation according to few), it’s not concentration, it’s allowing your
mind not think (not disallowing to think), some say it’s seeing your thoughts and some say it’s seeing that you are
seen seeing the thoughts}? They can be fun acts, yes but can any of these or all together be substitute for sleeping
and thinking wakefully (with or without co ee) whenever required?
Ravi
June 3, 2018 at 8:55 am
@VJ
 Any logic howsoever stated can not be outlawed the personal domain of that person who states it.
I am not quite sure I understand the use of the word outlawed here
 I have never been into the lobby of scientists but I feel it’s quite possible there also.
It is generally easy for scientists (and most other academics) to resolve scienti c di erences compared to the
general public because the ground rules are well understood and logical fallacies are well recognized and everyone
is arguing on the basis of data. Scientists don’t argue like politicians on TV.
 About the coffee thing, can someone really get coffee effect without coffee?
By co ee, I assume you mean ca eine. Yes, there are of course many other stimulant substances.
 Can clarity of thought enhance by any meditation {I am assuming standard de nitions of meditation- it’s not
out of mind but beyond mind.
Scienti cally, there is no such thing as beyond mind/brain meditation. It is just a belief, not a matter of fact. Perhaps
you meant that feeling of disconnecting from self.
Can it enhance clarity? Sure, some report it as such. The di culty is in ascertaining the degree, variance, cost-
bene t ratio and objective outcomes.
 it’s not concentration, it’s allowing your mind not think (not disallowing to think), some say it’s seeing your
thoughts and some say it’s seeing that you are seen seeing the thoughts}?
Sure, there is mindfulness meditation. There are numerous, long-standing accounts of practitioners reporting that
they perceive thoughts form.
 They can be fun acts, yes but can any of these or all together be substitute for sleeping and thinking
wakefully (with or without coffee) whenever required?
No. There is no substitute for sleep. A lot of good things happen in sleep. People, especially in cults, restrict sleep,
because it makes it easy to attain mystical experiences in a tired state. But sleep deprivation is a risk to their mental
health. They may of course rede ne mental health and claim hallucinations are visions and therefore are desirable
super states and such.
Yes, there are fun activities that stimulate you. Mild to moderate exercise improves clarity – nothing fancy, going for
a walk for instance. Any mildly mentally taxing activity like a short thinking game can increase alertness. If you
missed sleep at night, simply nishing that de cit with a short nap is better than ghting it.
Sleep whenever you want? Well, there is Melatonin. It is the normal hormone produced in the brain. Even 1 mg is
helpful (as low as 0.3 mg as per studies). But other than that, generally paying attention to sleep hygiene helps.
Mindfulness meditation just puts some to sleep, even if that is not the intended e ect. But it is hard to recommend
these since the variance is high. If it works for you, why not?
Ravi
June 4, 2018 at 6:21 am
In 1837, Hong Xiuquan, an aspirant for a government job, unked China’s civil services exam 4 times, and while still
in that despondency, had a high fever. This was the pre-paracetamol era and he su ered from febrile
hallucinations, that were far more common those days. Anything that messes with the delicate environment of the
brain can cause altered information processing.
The causes may be inadequate oxygen delivered to the brain, drugs and substances that mimic neuro-transmitters
and interfere with normal signaling, as well as fevers that raise temperature thereby e ecting the neural
machinery.
Here is a long list of known Hallucinogens

wikipedia. org/wiki/Hallucinogen
They are one among the various ways one can induce altered states of consciousness. This is not new knowledge.
Active research has been going in this area since the 60s and much has been uncovered.
en.wikipedia. org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness
For a person who does not understand that there are such things as hallucinogens and altered cognitive states, it is
easy to (self) explain this as God, enlightenment, cosmic experience, visiting other lokas etc. When a person
consumes even a tiny amount of LCD, it alters the way they view the world. Colors may be more vivid. They may
become more sensitive every little background sound, even in otherwise quiet settings. They notice little things that
they would not have noticed before. You can gain a small part of this e ect through meditation. But the point here
is, this is just Neurology, nothing mysterious going on here.
Similarly, as people near death, oxygen supply to the brain starts failing and it starts malfunctioning. This manifests
as hallucinations. Since the experiences are psychedelic, people who were lucky to survive and remember, interpret
this as having seen heaven or their religion’s God. What is really happening is something more akin to a problem
with the motor or disk/tape of a gramophone player/tape player – recall the distorted sound? It is a distortion in
neural information processing, not special access to a “higher” reality. People of course interpret these according to
their respective culture and myths available around them and often become very religious / spiritual following such
experiences.
Back to Hong – This was also a world when the Western powers were challenging the Chinese empire, which was
increasingly impotent in fending o the insults and Christianity was looking like a more powerful religion. In this
external political environment and with Hong’s internal environment of Fever, he hallucinated.
Febrile hallucinations are quite common. Hong thought he met God in his hallucinations. He starting believing he
was Jesus reborn. With his new found conviction, he started a cult, gradually amassed an army (there were other
factors of disillusionment at the time and people were looking for someone to fall behind), called himself the
heavenly emperor and started war. The resulting war cost 2 CRORE LIVES (possibly, 3). It was the largest war
catastrophe in the entire human history until that time, until the World Wars. I am surprised about how little it is
talked about today.
wikipedia .org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
This, at least in part explains why Chinese government, among other reasons, is very jittery when religious cults like
Falun Gong arise and assert themselves. It raises the specter of a very painful time in Chinese history… and that
was because of a cult.
Cults frequently lie to their followers that they will get super-powers if they follow them. In the Boxer’s rebellion,
the rebels were convinced that they will have magical shields that will de ect bullets. They were systematically
brain-washed into believing this through emotional rituals, chanting mantras and fake demonstrations with dummy
rearms. They thought that if they trained hard enough, they could even y. When they actually charged the
European positions, they were naturally mowed down by gun re since the forces of physics weren’t informed
about these invisible shields. The lies that Jaggi tells his followers (will be able to predict future and have healing
powers, are milder compared to how far the secret society – The Righteous and Harmonious Fists, went).
Falun Gong’s leader Li Hongzhi, at the height of his popularity (with some 70 million followers, compare with 5
million Jaggi followers), likewise claimed magic powers and says the practice will give the members supernatural
and healing powers – just like Jaggi. Similar to the Aum guy, he says he can implant magical wheels inside the
followers. Like many cults, they present themselves as benign meditation and traditional exercise group but the
cult features such as the infallible leader with purported super powers are there. It initially began as a QiGong
group (think Ramdev).
Chinese think of QiGong like Indians think of Yoga. Neither know much about the other, (some Chinese I met
thought Yoga was a martial art like Kung Fu, because that was how popular Hong Kong movies depicted it
occationally, but this was a long time ago before Yoga was promoted everywhere), but they’re basically the same
(exercise systems that mistakenly believe they are manipulating life energy). QiGong has ancient origins, can be
good exercise, can be a calming ritual and people freely and non-critically ascribe all sorts of additional bene ts
(some super-natural) to it even though concrete evidence is completely lacking. It is their cultural motherhood and
apple pie. Introducing rational thought is di cult on such topics, although we must try.
Even though China is generally more rational than India, there are still half-baked Chinese science students, who
just like their Indian counterparts, claim to link Falun Gong and String Theory (like Jaggi’s atoms yielding to a
meditator, Quantum Mechanics nonsense in New Age echo chambers) and make about the same claims about the
Pineal Gland. Same pseudo-science, just in di erent cultural terms.
When a physics professor at a major Chinese university wrote an article in a university magazine criticizing the
irrational beliefs of the cult, the cult did a major dharna. Cults claim free speech when it suits them. But make no
mistake, they are highly authoritarian groups which reject free speech and other freedoms in every sense that does
not bene t them. When Kiku Sharda satirized Ram Rahim, the police was used as a proxy and arrest was made and
he had no choice but to apologize. He may have had the last laugh, but our state failed with justice here, kowtowing
to the god-man’s muscle. He also may have likely ordered the assassination of the journalist Chatrapati Ram
Chander that picked up his rape case.
The story diverges here. To its credit, Falun Gong did not kill people and destroy property like how Ram Rahim’s
followers did. Unlike Ram Rahim’s followers, Falun Gong members were more educated on average (like Jaggi’s
followers – but the average standards are still quite low) – not critical thinkers, but educated nevertheless. So they
were less prone to be manipulated to form angry mobs. The physicist had political connections and would not be
thrown under the bus to placate demands like Kiku was. China’s one-party state saw a political threat (they don’t
need vote banks) and swiftly shut Falun Gong down with force. Cults manipulate information to control members
(often simply through self-censorship, brought about by psychological conditioning). But the communist
government could do much more beyond that with its tools – its control of police and media. Falun Gong had since
alleged all sorts of brutal abuse from the state and some of it may very well be true, but it is also di cult to
distinguish the truth when the information source is a personality cult – they have a tenuous relationship with
truth.
James Cornell
June 4, 2018 at 12:10 pm
I’ve researched more into Sadhguru and indeed I found him lying.
Although I don’t agree with the authors of this blog on the topic of meditation (which they should study more from
a scienti c perspective – and that is, to practice it themselves and optionally to read scienti c studies about it), I
have to confess that my personal nding is that Sadhguru is indeed a fraud. I was optimistic, I didn’t want to dismiss
him fast… I thought he’s doing something good even though he might be unenlightened, at least he’s promoting
meditation and yoga. I was wrong, he’s not promoting meditation or yoga or intelligence, he is promoting bullshit
IN THE NAME of these. This is my conclusion.
Keep researching guys.
VJ
June 4, 2018 at 3:08 pm
James Cornell, I, even now get excited when someone claims about the actual use meditation for someone who has
sound body and mind! Does it make mind and body more sound? does it improves digestion? Does it make
someone more intelligent in any sense? How?
Yoga, I will not say the same about yoga because it after all gives physical bene ts, howsoever subtle or minimum
they may be.
VJ
June 7, 2018 at 1:14 pm
Ravi,
‘Any logic howsoever stated can not be outlawed the personal domain of that person who states it.’
I think I confused you. I wanted to say that we nd some logic very objective. For example Sun rises in the East. But
not all facts are this much clear. For example (I don’t know it was a genuine resource or not but I am putting it here
for argument shake to express my point) It is believed that gravity is a pull force due to earth but some say that
there are equal chances that this e ect is due to push force of surroundings in the cosmos. I am not very serious
about this possibility however but it is interesting.
In humanities the dominance of subjective ideas is more than in science I suppose. For example there are several
views on Aryan Invasion Theory.
I said all that on your statement: “There are no really personal versions of Logic. There is just ONE. Please study
Formal Logic.”
About Co ee I wanted to ask if someone can get the same results by meditating which others get by co ee!
What is ‘mindfulness’ meditation? How disconnecting with self or anything like that help clarify thoughts?
By sleep and thinking I meant, that one must know how to think to solve the problems (its about every kind of
problem we face, puzzles, cross-road situations, professional, social, mathematical whatever. I believe the art of
thinking is to realize the desired result by least mental e ort in given time and situation) and body (brain included)
needs rest. Why brain needs rest I don’t know really but I believe and feel so also.
Thank you very much for keeping patience for my confusing sentences and for your e orts to reply all. I try my best
to sum up in least words but …. -)
Ravi
June 8, 2018 at 9:55 am
@VJ
 In humanities the dominance of subjective ideas is more than in science I suppose.

Fair enough. Alternate perspectives, rather than subjective ideas perhaps – i.e. they tend to be limited, but distinct
schools of thought, rather than one view per person. They still await resolution to a single perspective though and
look for data to enable that.
Perhaps, we are talking about di erent senses of the word Logic, one with a capital-L and small-l logic, to mean
personal applications of it (i.e. what is personally sensible to us – I try to downplay my personal sensibilities in
relation to the scienti c consensus, as much as humanly I can).
 About Coffee I wanted to ask if someone can get the same results by meditating which others get by coffee!
Most regard meditation as a calming exercise, not as a stimulant. This seems to be the case with mindfulness
meditation. But some hyperventilation practices do lead to a “high”, which may be perceived as stimulation (mild
euphoria is not the same as stimulation though). These seem to be a part of ISHA routines. Hyperventilation highs
are qualitatively better compared to high-altitude highs – in both cases, you end up less oxygenating the brain
(paradoxical, in case of hyperventilation). Ketotic highs are also somewhat similar.
Shanmugam can better contrast the two since he seems to have tried both.
 I believe the art of thinking is to realize the desired result by least mental effort in given time and situation
I think of the art of thinking as something entirely di erent. It is not so much about quick-thinking, but about
thinking the right way – more e ort and slow thinking are perfectly ne, this isn’t a race. Maryam Mirzakhani, who
was the rst woman to win the Field’s Medal describes her thought process as “slow” (or rather, meticulous
perhaps). The most uid thinking is utterly useless if you conclude like Jaggi, that blood can be unclotted by a ritual.
The people who champion meditation often celebrate the intuitiveness of the mind and subjectivity. Those of us in
the sciences think of the mind in almost the opposite way – it is seen as very error-prone in reasoning and our
thinking needs to incorporate a number of safeguards. Only in this way can we hope to see in the direction of the
objective Truth (capital-T).
 What is ‘mindfulness’ meditation? How disconnecting with self or anything like that help clarify thoughts?
Just Google. Many articles on it. It is a fairly straight forward process. People say they become better aware of their
thoughts as they form and this gives them new perspectives on themselves. Again, I think Shanmugam will be able
to better answer for you.
@James Cornell
I think it would help the discussion if you elaborated on what these lies are that you uncovered, assuming they are
di erent from what has already been said.
The point I make about meditation isn’t to argue against it, but against over-selling it, sometimes to super-natural
levels. We have been culturally been conditioned to this. While I don’t pay attention to single studies making special
claims, I would consider any scienti c consensus, regardless of my personal experiences with it or with those who
practice it in my vicinity.
James Cornell
June 8, 2018 at 2:27 pm
(please combine this comment with the preceding one if it’s possible)
https://youtu.be/T69Fzh5fC78?t=17m26s Look how Sadhguru was asked a question which he wasn’t prepared for
and how he avoided it twice. He was asked about intimate relationships, how we come to face unknown sides of
our ourselves when the partner gets angry at us or when we get angry at our lover… how we come to “break our
shells”… Sadhguru doesn’t seem to know much about this subject, so he dodged it: “It depends who you are with!”
The interviewer then naturally asked : “If it depends who you are with, then what about a wise guy? Please talk
about relationships, talk about wisdom in relationships!”. But no, Sadhguru is afraid about this subject it seems. He
avoided it the second time by saying that “A wise guy won’t stay with you.” (implying that the woman who asked the
question is stupid). Because he tried to avoid it the 2nd time (and he succeeded), it now becomes clear to us that
his rst answer “It depends who you are with” was not a genuine answer at all, it was only an attempt to dodge the
question.
PJ
June 13, 2018 at 11:48 pm
Finally someone who also feels that Sadhguru makes up a lot of BS science just to make his points believable, just
how sales guys attach random numbers to make things believable (fake sales ppl)
I have spent quite a time to educate a lot of people not to quote “science” examples from him, but in vain. They all
use http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Science_keeps_changing this argument to get away.
As a person who has his in uence over so many people (apparently educated scientists as well, Im told), he should
not use half baked science for the interest of other people, who mindlessly and con dently propagate stupidity like
water having memory. Also kudos to all the clickbait videos on youtube where “he proves time travel” and “talks
about God particle” and “proves Hawking was wrong”.
The only part what I fail to get is , How does he manage to get sessions to speak with scientists like David Eagleman
and universities like Harvard Medical School ?? Even though it was all lled with “Chitta”, “Buddhi” which he recycles
everywhere.
VJ
June 14, 2018 at 12:49 am
Ravi, (about art of thinking) I think you are right. I don’t know clearly that I was like this or became later because of
JV and Rajneesh like continuous speakers. May be I was like this or wanted to be like this that they appealed to me.
But whatever, it’s probably the desire of fun that comes by concluding fast in a [may be wrong but] convincing way.
Or an attempt to bypass pain of being in an indecisive situation.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Also, Ravi, I don’t know if this is the right place or not to ask this but I was searching for some books about
‘thinking’. Thinking Fast And Slow, is that worth trying for me?
Ravi
June 14, 2018 at 5:06 am
@PJ
As a person who has his in uence over so many people (apparently educated scientists as well, Im told),

We can say with con dence that these scientists are in name only. They may have a PhD that is not a little more
than a piece of paper. They may follow mechanically follow scienti c procedures and even get a novel nding to
publish, but their education has not given them any scienti c temper. I have seen plenty such paper scientists – the
kind who consult horoscopes or use homeopathy.
 Sadhguru makes up a lot of BS science just to make his points believable, just how sales guys attach random
numbers to make things believable (fake sales ppl)
I have some of that in the next post.
 How does he manage to get sessions to speak with scientists like David Eagleman and universities like
Harvard Medical School ??
Harvard (and many other Ivy league Universities) will let you speak or even name buildings if you give them enough
money. I have no idea whether ISHA donated for this privilege, but that is the only possibility I can think of.
@VJ
 it’s probably the desire of fun that comes by concluding fast in a [may be wrong but] convincing way. Or an
attempt to bypass pain of being in an indecisive situation.
Deep down, that’s just human (and beyond human) nature – we all have to overcome it. Evolution favors quick
decisions (survival in the wilds), not long contemplation. Civilization is young, contemplation and complex choice
are recent (at least on evolutionary scales) luxuries and powerful tools.
 but I was searching for some books about ‘thinking’.

Some universities do courses on these. Something like this
thegreatcourses. com/courses/tools-of-thinking-understanding-the-world-through-experience-and-reason.html
You can look for free alternatives, but this is a general idea.
Understanding the right way of thinking is to simply look at it the opposite way as the mystics, i.e. stop thinking of
the mind as some mysterious tool and instead see it as something with natural aws that need to be overcome.
Simply read about cognitive and logical biases and try not to make them. Despite my e orts, and all these years, I
still make them. Sometimes I recognize them a little later and perhaps other times, I never do. We can’t be perfect,
but we should all try the best we can.
Ravi
June 14, 2018 at 5:16 am
Here are some ne demonstrations of Jaggi’s unenlightened stupidity. This is what “just perceiving”, without the
e ort of real study gets you.
“Now they think Mercury is poison. No Mercury is not poison. But if you drink it, it’ll kill you. Not because you can
absorb it as poison. It is because of its sheer weight. If you put it into the stomach, it will not go through the pipe, it
will just drip through the stomach because of its sheer weight, because its speci c gravity is almost 14 times that of
water… because of that… because of its sheer weight, if you place it in your hands, it just goes through your hands
through the pores. Similarly, if you put it into the stomach, it will go through the stomach, it will not go through the
intestine. Because of that, it may kill you because it bores holes, not because it’s acidic, simply because of sheer
weight.”
Source: 9gag. com/gag/aoObAjX
“So the reason why so many things are taken care of on a full lunar eclipse day is because you are passing 28 days
in 2 hrs time, approximately 2 hrs time. So here, the moon is on fast forward today, all the 28 days, all the 28 faces
of the moon, you see right here. Everything that happens in a month, in a subtle way is happening right here. When
such a fast-forward is happening, many things are changing. One thing you will notice is, that the food, when I say
food, don’t hang your tongue out, so when I say food, the food, particularly the cooked food will go through the
phases of deterioration much, much more in a subtle way than it does in a normal day. If.. if there is food in your
body, it would happen to you much more, that is in 2 hrs time your energies will age by approximately 28 days.
That means 27 days less of life span could happen to you.”
Source: 9gag. com/gag/ajNbnzp or 9gag. com/gag/a5nmrEO
This is what happens when we take a charismatic fool who admits he did not understand his classes in high-school
or was even ever interested, never studied anything real beyond that or had the curiosity, and allow him to call
himself a guru. That’s not a Sadhguru, that is a Durguru.
VJ
June 14, 2018 at 8:25 am
Thanks a lot Ravi.
PJ
June 14, 2018 at 9:29 am
@Ravi
I had my hunch that it was money/donations that gave him a chance to speak in Harvard, , but nobody would
believe me. I have seen him speak with in Google, Economic Forum (which had people like Michio Kaku) , Im more
and more saddened by the fact that what these people think of our country when people like these spit out things
like these.
Specially the “water having memory and him touching water and making it sweet” story was given in IIT Madras,
And specially his misconception about genetics passing information in your brain to next generation. He messes
with your rational thinking so much that no matter how well founded arguments you have, it wont stand in front of
his “bhakts” and also funnily they all will say that they are not his “bhakts”.
What motives do these institutes have to bring a mystic and speak a load of crap about science which people within
the institutes are more capable at handling.
I would really appreciate if he would sit in a discussion with , say the monks of the Ramakrishna Mission order, on a
neutral platform and say such things.
My only request to Sadhguru is , everytime he (mis)quotes a “scienti c” fact or phenomenon, and shows utter
disregard to the real science by saying things like “they are trying to …..” and “Scientists have proven what we knew
earlier” (my favourite), A REAL SCIENTIST DIES, also A REAL YOGI DIES as well..
Please stick to your brand of “Inner Engineering” 2-minute noodle form of spirituality and leave the SCIENCE (in
bold and capitals) to real scientists with proper training and temperament.
Ravi
June 15, 2018 at 8:35 am
Here is an example counter view point research to all the milk and honey meditation papers. It just came out.
Hafenbrack, A.C. and Vohs, K.D., 2018. Mindfulness Meditation Impairs Task Motivation but Not Performance.
Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 147, pp.1-15.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S074959781630646X
I don’t draw too many conclusions from individual studies and wait until the expert consensus emerges. It is just
hard to get studies in this area right. That goes for this study as well.
Almost everything has bene ts and drawbacks. We tend to discuss only the bene ts of meditation in our culture.
Again, the point is not towards dissing meditation, but only towards nudging for a more nuanced consideration.
James Cornell
June 20, 2018 at 3:34 pm
Ravi,
I’m reading through that study and I can see some issues there: “Participants were recruited for a study on “Tasks
and Temporal Feelings” and randomly assigned by the survey software to listen to a 15-min focused breathing
mindfulness meditation”
First of all, 15 minutes is better than nothing, but it is not enough, especially for untrained people. I mean if you
want to measure some e ect, you should do some serious mindfulness training, or use meditators who have been
meditating intensely many hours every day. Or if you use novices then at least rst train them for long enough. One
becomes rooted in mindfulness when he can do it WHILE doing OTHER ACTIVITIES. One is really mindful when he is
aware even while his body is sleeping. <- if one hasn’t achieved this state then one isn’t really mindful.. he can only
say that “I only tasted a little tiny bit of what mindfulness is, but I am not really mindful.”
Of course It can also be interesting to examine people who have only tasted a little… perhaps this can also give
some us some hints, but I think that if we are to do real research then we should do it with real meditators.
I can say from my experience that mindfulness can boost your happiness while doing a task that you love. (and I am
not even a real meditator who can be mindful 24/24)
Thus comes a second issue:
“3. Task motivation. After the manipulation, participants were told that they would soon be asked to complete
anagram word puzzles. The instructions explained that anagrams are words or phrases made by rearranging a
string of letters, and provided two examples”
Now this really stupid !!!! :))) Doing anagram and word puzzles is a stupid activity in itself… if one feels less
motivated to do such an activity, that’s a good sign! – unless you have a passion for word puzzles, of course. If YOU
DO HAVE a passion for word puzzles and mindfulness has decreased your motivation, only then the conclusion of
this study becomes valid.
From my experience, mindfulness will boost your motivation for tasks that you have passion for, and it will diminish
motivation for all those things that you’ve been doing for others sake…. So for example if you love painting, by
practicing mindfulness you will have more stamina and you will want to do more painting, you will become more
passionate about it! If you love painting and you do mindfulness, it seems very natural to me that your willingness
to do word puzzles WILL DECREASE.
It’s amazing how this study fails to take this basic thing into account. It doesn’t mention whether any of the
participants had any talent or natural inclination towards words puzzles.
It’s such an obvious thing… if we are to test task motivation then we should give some tasks for which the
participants have a natural attraction! Don’t give mathematical tasks to people who don’t feel any attraction for
maths, don’t give sports tasks to those who hate being told “run”, “jump”, don’t give musical tasks to those who are
not sensitive to music and are not interested in it…
So I think further study should take these aspects into account. They should rst make sure that the participants
have a talent, a gift, for that task, and that they love doing it.
In our society everyone is doing tasks by compulsion… for the sake of money, not for the sake of that task itself. But
that is not scienti c at all. Science should change these stupid habits and “traditions”, but what we can see instead
is that it takes these traditions as the basis… I am ashamed of this study… are the authors 10 years old children or
what… wtf how is science going to evolve if we stick to these childish concepts that people should work like robots
whether they like it or not. The authors can’t even understand such a basic thing….
“There is an inherent tension between being accepting of one’s present experience and motivated to achieve
something new. A main aim of mindfulness is to get people to be content with their current state (Bishop et al.,
2004), whereas task motivation could be cast as being the opposite of that (Locke & Latham, 2006).”
I don’t think there’s any tension: some people will do sports because that’s their natural talent, some people will do
mathematics because that’s their way of manifestation… When you do a task that you love, you are doing it in the
present… mindfulness means that you will enjoy your natural hobby more!
So I think the problem is that we expect people to be willing to do any task by compulsion. We expect people to be
robots. That’s idiotic.
Indeed, mindfulness will decrease your will to do things that don’t t with your way of being. It’s something so basic
and simple and natural and OBVIOUS…………………………………………….
If mindfulness makes you less motivated in your tasks, it only means that you were doing those tasks forcibly, that’s
all. And it’s GOOD to stop doing tasks forcibly. Go and nd your natural talent, do the work you love. And if you
don’t love any work, then just enjoy being lazy, nothing wrong with that!
At the end the study discusses how mindfulness might make employees unmotivated. They somehow imply that
this is a bad thing. Their premise is wrong. I’ll repeat what I said above: “if we are to test task motivation then we
should give some tasks for which the participants have a natural attraction!”
In this world we don’t need people who do work they don’t love. (the companies need such people, but that’s not
good for the world, in my opinion. the companies need robots, slaves.)
It’s good that mindfulness makes you less robot, less a slave. <- that’s a hypothesis, and we should continue
researching it
“They took part in exchange for $1.50.” <- I am not sure I understand. Were the participants given money to
meditate?????? This is like saying “Take $1.50 and love my wife.” If you don’t do meditation for meditation’s sake,
then it’s not meditation. If you don’t love for love’s sake, then it’s not love.
In experiment 4, they say: “In the preceding experiments, participants did not have an incentive to perform well.
Given that nancial incentives are positively correlated with how hard people work (Jenkins, Mitra, Gupta, & Shaw,
1998) and given our aim to test mindfulness’s e ect on
motivation and performance, we included a nancial incentive as a strong test of its possible e ects.”
I can’t believe my eyes. =))+)) =)) =)) :)) :)) :))
hahahahahah
I’ll repeat again: if you do a work for the sake of money and not for the sake of work itself, it means you’re doing it
forcibly, reluctantly… you are like a whore, you are doing it for money. No wonder mindfulness makes you less
motivated to do it…
In Experiment 5: “Task performance. Participants were instructed to think of as many creative uses for a brick as
possible”
Wtf hahahahahahahah, now that “sounds” intelligent! =)) =))
Were these participants well versed in the science of bricks/construction materials? Were they at least in any actual
NEED of thinking about bricks? Were their lives concerned in any way with bricks? Do they love constructions, do
they love bricks in any way? If not, it’s natural that they didn’t give a fuck about bricks…
In my opinion such ways of testing task motivation are not suited to humans, but to robotic slaves. They are not
really testing any motivation, they are testing “How willing are they to conform and obey the tasks?”
Can’t believe it, is this a 2018 study?
Note that I didn’t mean to insult anyone… it’s just that I couldn’t help expressing my astonishment…
James Cornell
June 20, 2018 at 3:54 pm
To the moderator: please accept my comment in which I presented dozens of studies about mindfulness and
hypnosis and the brain.
VJ
June 20, 2018 at 4:30 pm
James, are you sure it can work that if someone doesn’t like doing anything then being lazy is not wrong? I am
asking it because possibly everyone wants it. I think man did not invent work to kill boredom or to express his
talent, he had to do it for survival.
Ravi
June 21, 2018 at 1:52 am
@James Cornell
That is, broadly speaking, a healthy way to read a paper. I don’t think it is a great study either, but it is a start and it
is not atypical at this stage. Methods get re ned iteratively through critique. I don’t think it leads to de nitive
conclusions, as I indicated earlier.
I wish you would read the pro-meditation papers with the same level of doubt – How can this result be reliable?
They could not have blinded it. So what does that mean for the interpretation? Did they try a sham procedure? Is
there a control activity? Did they account for e ects such as the Hawthorne e ect? Do the metrics have internal and
external validity? Do the questions in the survey have interpretation problems? Did others replicate? Did the
numbers in other studies converge or did they vary wildly etc.
BTW, I don’t think there is an active human moderator for this thread. If you had too many links, it was probably
mis-classi ed as spam. My posts get auto-rejected as well. Sometimes, a human moderator comes along, weeks or
months latter and clears it.. or not. I personally disable links with spaces when I have more than 2 or so. I am not
sure about the threshold.
Ravi
June 23, 2018 at 5:39 pm
As was noted earlier, critical thinking is an acquired skill. It needs to be taught in schools, but often isn’t. This is
hardly an India-speci c problem, but our rote school system in India is especially weak in this regard.
Reading some of the comments on this site is depressing. People, seemingly with college degrees, seem to have
never been introduced to critical thought and readily believe in every kind of magical positions.
College graduates cannot tell the di erence between scienti c medicine and make-believe alternatives with no
biological plausibility or evidence. It is easy to manipulate them saying: your ancestors knew this all along.
Little surprise then that fake gurus like Jaggi who spout a dumbed down combination of truisms and utter BS are
put on the pedestal, while the real gurus – university professors, who explore complex problems are treated as
boring.
Here is a study that actively attempts to teach university students critical thinking and measures the response. The
results are promising.
Wilson, J.A., 2018. Reducing Pseudoscienti c and Paranormal Beliefs in University Students Through a Course in
Science and Critical Thinking. Science & Education, 27(1-2), pp.183-210.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11191-018-9956-0
Beyond the data, the review and discussion is interesting. We need studies and e orts like this in India. I’d much
rather that the students learn a lot less equations and terminology and much more about the general processes of
rationally dissecting claims.
Ravi
June 28, 2018 at 4:40 pm
Does Jaggi have Pseudologia Phantastica Syndrome? The Psychopathology of Cult Leaders.
From:
Akimoto, H., 2006. The Aum Cult leader Asahara’s mental deviation and its social relations. Psychiatry and clinical
neurosciences, 60(1), pp.3-8.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2006.01454.x
I wrote about the Aum cult in Japan and their unthinkable attack in Tokyo. Since then, Japan tried to understand the
phenomenon of cults. The area of study is Social Psychiatry. Here is a researcher from the Tokyo University Medical
School talking about how Asakura, Aum’s cult leader is basically a psychopath.
This is a psychological pro le of Pseudologia Phantastica Syndrome, rst described in 1891.
Quote:
1. He or she has an unusual imaginative power and puts fantasy before reality
2. To all appearances, he or she is talented, erudite, well versed in various ways, in geography, history, poetry,
technology and medical science. He or she seems to always have something interesting to talk about. But, with a
little investigation, it becomes clear that his knowledge is just a mixture of books and pieces of stories told by other
people
3. He or she speaks uently and retorts wittily 4. He or she likes to use di cult borrowed words, and enumerates
words with a menacingly, ferocious look
5. He or she is very skillful at appealing to peoples’ minds, catching the public fancy, and attracting attention
6. He or she is intoxicated with his or her egocentric fancy. He or she turns a deaf ear to any comments
“Kraepelin added the following comment: Super cial observers are dazzled by exaggerated words and deeds of a
fanciful liar, and believe him as an outstanding thinker. In contrast, attentive people see through him that he is just
a boaster and a cheat.”
“The six criteria preferred by Kraepelin are perfectly ful lled in Asahara’s case.”
I feel they are also ful lled by Jaggi, Ram Rahim and several other cult leaders, while naïve people like Realtor think
it is enlightenment.
Of course, not every person with Pseudologia Phantastica Syndrome can become a cult leader, but many cult
leaders seem to exhibit these traits.
Mike
July 4, 2018 at 8:40 am
Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Dukes, Emory, Oxford, Google, Facebook etc etc, call him to give Talk and also discuss about
science and mysticism .
Now this two cent blog with no credible backing just laments blah blah….
First prove something through work like an useful invention or run a successful billion dollar company and then
write your crap.
You stand no where to him in credibility, just a mindless prejudiced egoistic lamenting without understanding
fundamentals
Ravi
July 4, 2018 at 5:53 pm
@Mike
You unintentionally took words out of my mouth. I can’t think of a single person who is the very de nition of a
“mindless prejudiced egoistic” who talks “without understanding fundamentals” – basic, high school level
fundamentals. Literally.
If he is a smart mystic, he would be like Meher Baba and go into Maun Vrath. It is better to not speak than remove
all doubt that he is a fool – mercury, eclipses, dowsing, tantra, reanimation of the dead, precognition, healing super
powers, super power termination, sweetening water, evil eye.. the list goes on and on.
At least, Jaggi knows to keep the BS levels relatively low, when he speaks to people who have not yet fallen for his
cult (the forums you mentioned). The BS comes in, after the brainwashing – standard cult procedures. But we still
have video.
Ravi
July 6, 2018 at 5:26 pm
Today’s news: Aum cult leader/guru was nally executed today in Japan for the attack he conducted 23 years.
https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqSQgKIkNDQklTTERvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoOGFIV1JrZVVJMFZTMUphRGt6Y
jJGeFRXOHliME5UUTNSb1drWnFkVzFOS0FBUAE
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-43395483
I wrote about Aum in the past. The news of its attack in uenced me two decades ago. I think of it as one of the
most important case studies of a cult. So I felt it was important to note this event. It perhaps represents the worst
case scenario of a meditation cult.
People who join meditation cults in India should spend some time understanding how Aum devolved. We should
compare their practices vs. the practices of our own cults. People should understand how meditation cults can give
rise to personality cults. Media should talk about this.
In my view, it is dangerous to pursue mystical states in groups, because you end up also buying the group’s
ideology (package deal), not just the mystical state itself, which has its own set of issues (and to others – bene ts).
Meditate on your own, if you must.
In India, I often hear: a lot of our members are well-educated, engineers etc. No, this does not give you immunity
and critical thought automatically. It should, but does not always. Meditative/mystical experiences can be quite
powerful, emotionally (applies to non-meditative religious experiences as well). After people experience mystical
experiences, they can be confused to the nature of reality because it is such a di erent cognitive state. After the
experience, it is easy to convince people to cast aside logic and reason.. and manipulate them as the leader or
group desires. Aum’s members included very talented scientists – they were still brainwashed into being murderers
(they were also executed today). I have personally seen people basically de-educated in much milder cults.
Like Jaggi, Aum leader was also a guru personality on TV, claimed super powers, psychic and otherwise, talked in
pseudo-philosophical babble, cleverly marketed himself on main media owned a helicopter, and commanded a
following across countries and ran a multi-million dollar organization. I see Jaggi as more commercially successful,
with a larger and better marketed organization, but still only a light-weight version of Asahara.
VJ
July 6, 2018 at 8:51 pm
Thanks Ravi.
Shanmugam
July 6, 2018 at 10:15 pm
Isha has used everything that will create a psychological attachment. People usually associate their experience of
meditation with the things they see around them like the music they hear, the visuals etc. These things, along with
the power of meditation combined with the experience of meditation makes them completely addicted. In
combination to all of that, there is groupthink. People get their need for the sense of belonging, self-esteem and
emotional security satis ed there. But in the long run, they lose the ability to listen to the reason. But they
genuinely think that they are correct and the rest of the world is wrong.
After observing their behaviour for more than a year, I came up with the list of beliefs they hold. (The beliefs they
have are much more but the following beliefs and behaviours are something one can frequently observe in them)
1)The rst and foremost belief they hold is the belief that they don’t hold any beliefs. If you ask them, they will say
‘We don’t believe in anything; Sadhguru never asks you to believe in anything’. It is true that Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev
uses the Osho’s punch line’Don’t believe me and don’t disbelieve me’ and never asks anyone to believe in anything.
But beliefs don’t work that way. Beliefs are formed gradually by exposure and usually not formed in a single
instant. Second, once you start trusting the person, you will start taking things for granted.
2) Sadhguru can never ever be wrong in anything no matter which subject he talks about, be it physics, chemistry,
history, Sanskrit, etymology etc.
3) Anyone who shows skepticism on what Sadhguru says and disagrees with him is an idiot, moron, fool and stupid.
The word ‘idiot’ is probably consecrated by Sadhguru just like he consecrated a mantra called ‘Brahmananda
Svarupa’.
4) Anyone who shows skepticism on what Sadhguru says is getting paid by a Christian missionary or a Naxalite.
5) There was a human being called ‘Adiyogi’ who lived 15,000 years before, who married a yogini called Parvati. She
gave birth to Ganesha and Skanda who were also yogis. Everything that is written in Shiva Purana is actually about
this human being who suddenly appeared in Himalayas. No one, including Sadhguru knew where he came from,
even though Sadhguru knows every thing else about his life.
6) Science is dumb, arrogant and has been wrong many times. Science is something that is in competition with
spirituality. If anyone with scienti c background points out some unscienti c statement said by Sadhguru, that guy
is an arrogant idiot. (The fallacy ‘science was wrong before’ is a classic statement used only by religions: “Science
Was Wrong Before!” | Debunking Denialism )
7) They are not devotees or followers but meditators. The cult of personality that exists in Isha about just one
person has got nothing to do with ‘devotion’ at all.
8) The police department and law in our country is completely perfect and corruption free. If a case is closed by
police saying that there is no evidence, you can be sure that it is true. Because, not even a single policeman in our
country knows what bribery is. (If a cop asks you money illegally, it probably is a donation; but not bribe). Law and
order is 100% perfect in our country.
9) A question can be interpreted as a statement. For example, a guy asks Sadhguru, “How can I be sure if you are
not another Ram Rahim?”, it means that the questioner is saying, ‘You are another Ram Rahim’.. The person who
asked that question deserved a lot of verbal abuses. (this is a real incident by the way).. Asking such questions are
always like ‘trying to insult’ Sadhguru. And Sadhguru always ‘shuts them up’: https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-
qimg-1c5d605ecda98c0e9e91bb0030d45b25
10) Christians must be hated for every reason (unless he is also a part of Isha). If a person with a Christian name
comments on Youtube video showing a little bit of skepticism, it is completely ok to abuse him until your frustration
and anger is completely gone.
11) Even though Isha is not a religion, it may change according to convenience. For example, if someone is
criticizing Sadhguru, an Isha follower may comment and say ‘Why is that you people always criticize Hindu gurus?
What about that church pastor? what about ‘so and so’ incident done by an Islamic preacher?” etc. That comment
will have a lot of likes or upvotes. It is ok for Isha to become a religion on a temporary basis just to insult another
human being.
12) Along with daily meditation practice, insulting a non-follower who questions Sadhguru everyday is also a good
practice and a social norm. You are free to ridicule each and every one.
13) To comment on some written article or a video, you don’t have to read it or watch it completely. You can make a
rough assumption by just reading the title or by skimming through.
14) A person who supports Sadhguru is always correct in his supportive comments, even if what he says is
completely contradictory to what Sadhguru himself said.
15) It is completely ok to comment on a post that criticizes Sadhguru by saying ‘You wasted my time’. For some
reason, the time he took to comment that never gets wasted. Also, you can go ahead and engage in an argument
with that person and that will not be a waste of time either.
16) If you want to disagree with a critique but don’t know what to say, the best way to handle the problem is to say
‘Sadhguru never said that’… (I have watched a few instances. One person was questioning Sadhguru’s
enlightenment in Youtube comments section and another guy replied ‘Sadhguru never said he is enlightened’..
There was another instance in Quora, where another guy con dently said ‘Sadhguru never said that the word
Sadhguru means the uneducated guru.’).
17) It is cool to put the phrase ‘undercover yogi’ near your name and photograph in all the pro les, even though the
word ‘undercover’ is about something that is not revealed publicly.
18) Water has memory. A random website which talks about a scientist doing an experiment can be trusted
completely if it can be used to justify the belief that water has memory. You don’t have to understand about peer
review or authentic science journals. If this argument doesn’t work, then all you have to say is ‘Science has not yet
discovered it, because it is so dumb anyway’.
19) An important holy book of the religion: Mystic Musings.
20) A main code of conduct: Ad hominem or personal attacks.
There is more… But I think it is enough for now.
R Surve
July 7, 2018 at 7:56 am
The scienti c method is essential but it has its limitations. There are things that can’t be proved or disproved. For
instance, take Shanmugam’s assertion (in his blog) that most of the time he is not aware of his separate identity,
apart from the rest of the universe. Should we disbelieve this unless it can be reproduced in a large group under
the supervision of scientists?
R Surve
July 7, 2018 at 12:05 pm
According to Mike (above) Jaggi has infected Stanford, MIT, Oxford, etc.! In these circumstances, what impact can
Shanmugam’s 20 points have?
James Cornell
July 7, 2018 at 5:59 pm
To avoid having my (long) comment ltered out again, I pasted it here https://pastebin.com/4LxVvuKW .
Ravi
July 7, 2018 at 7:12 pm
@R Surve
 The scienti c method is essential but it has its limitations.

Its limits are simply what is knowable at all, given all information available.
 There are things that can’t be proved or disproved.
Please lookup phenomenological studies. You have a very narrow de nition of science. You can pursue anything
scienti cally.
See post on October 25, 2017 at 5:00 pm to you.
If X percent of people who meditate say, it detaches us from self, we can simply note that down – that in itself is a
nding, without making any claims whether or not that is a fact. We can look for thematic convergence,
triangulation etc. There are tools in qualitative research for this.
Then we can ask them what that means to their lives. If they declare any consequent behaviors, we can verify them
from interviewing others around them (because we know from cognitive studies that what people think of
themselves is often highly, sometimes hilariously, unreliable) or better, by empirical studies. For example, did it
really reduce emotional reactivity? We can setup experiments for that.
Some of these experiments in this area will be initially unreliable, not because science is “limited”, but because of
the general vagueness of the claims involved. But they can be re ned as limitations are discovered.
 According to Mike (above) Jaggi has infected Stanford, MIT, Oxford, etc.!
If you take a sample of 30 researchers from each of Stanford, MIT etc now and ask them about Jaggi, they will all
probably say – Jaggi who? In each of these places, what do you think is the percent of actual experienced
researchers in the crowd? Pseudoscience guys have a record of giving themselves legitimacy by latching their name
to credible institution. The cult I knew used to say their special holy text is in Harvard Library. That is likely true and
they probably even lobbied for it just so that they can say it.
From my experience, it is usually more of the support sta that attends these types of meetings, not the busy
senior researchers. Most come in to watch the other speakers – Michio Kaku will draw the crowd here, not Jaggi. I
highly doubt that Jaggi talk had any impact in any of these places, but that is not the point for him. The point is
simply to enable his PR team to market him deceptively as MIT-grade to people who understand little about these
institutions.
One pseudoscience group that was claiming to do absurd experiments claiming that you can in uence Random
Number Generators by mass meditation (Dean Radin, parapsychology woo) wanted credibility. So they rented an
unused building from University of California at Berkeley and started saying: “Researchers from Berkeley showed
that… “. I am familiar with how this game is played. But generally, this is not necessary since you can nd at least
one guy on tenure who is sympathetic to some woo, outside of his actual expertise.
Ravi
July 7, 2018 at 9:45 pm
@James Cornell
 Read the actual research, read about the actual experiments

Yes. But just be aware that unless you have general research training, you will read them badly. The majority of
“research” published today is junk – with poor experimental designs and weak processes that non-domain
audience cannot generally discriminate (A researcher in one domain cannot realistically detect mistakes in a
domain only slightly removed from his/hers – this is hard). Most of this comes from people at non-research
institutions who are pushed to publish token papers to get promotions. This is why I stress, pay attention to expert
reviews of this research.
 be yourself meditative, only then you can say

This is like saying use Homeopathy or try Astrology. Only then can you say whether they work as they say. Whether
they work is something you determine from data, not subjective feelings. If Realtor thinks meditation makes him
super-smart, we don’t need to care about how he self-evaluates his intelligence, but test him objectively. We can do
objective pre and post meditation studies for whatever e ects are claimed.
The general public thinks “research” is looking stu up without structure or trying random things. That is not
“research” at all, academically speaking. You need to have a process. You have the freedom to de ne that process
but you also have the burden to defend it.
 Just don’t fall into the trap of thinking that you already understand the world, the human body, the brain,
and everything else.
Exactly. But rst start with the basics. First study the basic college level textbooks on physiology and neuroscience.
Then, you can question them. Don’t start lazily without any basics, look random stu up (the usual bias is to
gravitate to people who make sensational claims) and try random things (without having any colleagues to critique)
and imagine you are doing “research”. No, you are just web sur ng, no matter how long you do it.
 If you’re interested only to maintain your belief that meditation is useless

No. That is not my position at all. Meditation is useful to some people. I am against exaggerating claims. I was
against your ideas of “fully realized yogis” having access to knowledge about particles that scientists can’t and such
woo-laden ideas (your Radin talk – meditating to remotely e ect matter across the world). Now you are more
conservatively de ning “fully realized” as those who have conscious focus on autonomous or background
experiences. OK. So tell me what cognitive e ects you claim as a consequence and we can discuss experimental
setups that will convince, not you or me, but academic cognitive scientists.
Some people bene t from hypnosis. Some are manipulated through it. And some are not very reactive to it. Same
with meditation.
My point on Yoga was that most of what is currently promoted as Yoga is quite di erent from what Indian texts
described it as. For example, for Patanjali, the isotonic exercises are not key at all. For him, much of it was about
being mentally disciplined. The exercises were just a minor tool to help towards that.
 just a simple hypothesis that it is possible for man to be aware of all of his thoughts continuously. It is a
testable hypothesis
OK. Make a list of ALL the thoughts you had in 10 secs. Remember, you have 100 TRILLION synapses, with several
trillion ring at any instant. How do you intend to prove that you did not miss ANY?
That hypnosis study: They did not actually do any robust experiment themselves. I was just an opinion piece that
does cite a decent sized experimental study. I also have distrust in some of the types of claims made based on my
experience with literature. For example, in China, they claimed that they conducted surgeries without using general
anesthesia by using acupuncture. Scientists were naturally skeptical and visited the site to check. Turns out they
were giving patients Fentanyl, a very powerful sedative-hypnotic and were simply not mentioning it. It was
technically true that this did not do GA. But Acupuncture here was just the side show. The real e ect was due to the
pharmaceutical hypnotic. Unless, the experiments are followed up and critically veri ed, be very cautious of
believing any fantastical claims. In medicine, these alternative studies frequently promise the world, but fail to
deliver.
For example, nearly every small homeopathy study reports positive results. Every one of them is false. Why do you
think this is the case?
Not sure what you make of the stories about the worm, hydrocephalus boy and others. Worms, strictly speaking,
don’t have brains in the same sense as we do. The most they have is a nerve ring. It is nowhere as di erentiated as
our brain. It is certainly plausible that learning associations are stored away from it as well and more di usely. The
boy in question does have a brain now. He was lucky that his respiratory centers in the brain stem did not get
compressed. And he is su ering from de cits due to early damage.
There are of course odd cases when the doctors don’t expect survival, but the patient beats the statistical
improbability. It happens more often than people think. This does not overturn biology or medicine. These are
statistical events, not supernatural miracles. Our nervous system can be quite plastic.
If you are seeing these as cases where the mind/consciousness is beyond the nervous system, that is simply
incorrect. Please read neuroscience from proper formal sources. Don’t get these arguments from people like Radin,
who do not seem to have any neuroscience training (along with not also not training in quantum mechanics, but
claiming to combine the two for non-science audience).
I may cover the other points later. I am i y again for a month or so.
Shanmugam
July 7, 2018 at 10:54 pm
@Ravi and others….
I see a lot of interesting discussion going on here… So let me o er my two cents…
First of all, people who are into spirituality misunderstand how science works. Science is a method to objectively
verify a hypothesis while making sure that there are absolutely no errors and no other factors (other than probably
the one variable that we are interested in) are in uencing the results of the experiment. (correct me if I am wrong, I
have some basic understanding of scienti c method after I completely nished a textbook of Psychology 2 years
before, which is this: https://www.amazon.in/Psychology-Indian-Subcontinent-class-Robert-
Girishwar/dp/B00PIX1RO2). So there is absolutely no point in arguing to accept a point of view or a statement that
is not yet science)…
But let me tell you about my experience of ‘meditation’. One of the biggest problems when talking about meditation
is that everyone has a di erent concept of it and everyone understands it di erently. But since I am commenting
on a blog which is moderated by people who understands what science is, I will take a di erent route to explain the
meditation I did.
I used to be a completely neurotic person, depressed to the core, suicidal and crazy to the extent of using a blade
to make deep cuts all over my left hand. This happened when I was 15 years old and I still have those scars. I was
also taken to a psychiatrist. But I was a very intelligent kid at school; I could very easily get the rst mark in the
class, write poetry, give speeches in public and do more…
Even though things got better as I became mature in the following years, depression never disappeared. It was a
constant struggle of trying to overcome my own tendencies, ghting with myself etc. When I was about 17 years
old, I resolved to make myself better than before at any cost. So I went through a deep analysis of my own thoughts
with complete self-honesty. After any incident when I had a quarrel with someone, got depressed for some reason
or anything that happened which made me regret what I did, I sat down to analyse what happened with complete
self-honesty. But yes, It was all subjective even though they were very deep. I practised extreme self-control like
studying my subjects every day, getting up at 4 am everyday etc…But I couldn’t do that anymore after six months. It
felt like everything was meaningless and there was no point to continue to live.
After that, I learnt a meditation technique by chance, and I have already discussed from whose book I learnt it .
But that meditation is exactly the same as the therapy which is given in ‘Acceptance and commitment therapy’:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance_and_commitment_therapy
In that therapy, they di erentiate between ‘observer self’ and ‘conceptualized self’.. This is a very important
discrimination and they explain it very well. (I read it in a book called ‘ACT made simple’ by Dr. Russ Harris)… The
therapy is a short -term therapy but I practised this for about 12 years. This was my only choice as it gave me a very
safe place to detach myself from my own ‘self-concept’. The idea may look dangerous and in fact, for many people,
the practice may cause fear of losing oneself. In those 12 years, I have gone through many ‘spiritual experiences’
which the scienti c community is well aware of and can be explained using neuroscience.
In April 2014, I intensi ed this practice and began to do whenever I found time. (this can be done when you are
doing your day to day activities like bathing, walking, eating etc)… At one point, It became something that I was
doing all my waking hours. Doing it felt so good at that point of time. At some point, something happened which is
very hard to explain but it was like a permanent unclutching from my personal story and self-concept. Here are my
observations after that:
1) I hope you are aware of psychological self-consciousness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-consciousness. It was

gone. I no longer feel it.
2) It seems as if ‘psychological time’ has completely stopped and it is so till date. I hardly think about tomorrow and
I never think about what I should do next month or any time beyond that.
3) Self-image has almost zero importance. I am using ‘almost’ because the traces of it still exists and I do defend
myself. But sometimes I don’t care about it.
4) Being peaceful is like my default state. How I experience life is similar to how it was when I was three years old. I
do get a little disturbed and I also get angry. But there is a di erence which I am not able to explain.
5) I can focus on the work I am doing (only if I choose to do it) for many hours with zero distraction. The experience
is similar to how the ‘state of ow’ is described. But if I am asked to do something which I don’t want to do, I will
have no interest at all in the beginning. So I may have to put some e ort into getting interested in the task. Still, I
don’t have the same mind I used to have before. At any point in time, the thought ow is very low and there is a
peaceful stillness in my mind.
6) I can relate to other people very well, understand them very well and can also be nice to them.
I did go through a transition period of learning to live with this transformed nature. Because, initially I was behaving
almost like a kid and people use to say that to me all the time. Many people treated me like a kid at my previous
job. So there were also gradual changes that took place in the last two years, adapting and learning to live. But now
all the su ering that happened to my life seems to be a blessing in disguise. One thing that has changed is the
perception of self.
I can suggest how a research on this can be done. I am not an expert but doing an MRI scan on my brain may reveal
few things or give some clue on how to proceed. I have read similar reports where people say that the activity of
‘default network mode’ is tremendously reduced. I remember reading something from Gary Weber (if I remember
correctly) who also said that he had very less activity in DMN. I am willing to participate in a research like this.
Because I believe that some di erences can be noticed if a brain scan is done when I am doing various activities like
watching a movie, remembering something bad that happened before, reading something that emotionally
provokes people etc.
Ravi
July 8, 2018 at 3:08 am
@James Cornell
Just skimmming:
From: The Osho article
 People go on growing physically up to seventy, eighty, ninety, a hundred years — in some places like
Caucasia, up to one hundred and fty, even one hundred and eighty. But their mental age remains stuck at
fourteen. This has been the routine up to now.
This is nonsense. The oldest recorded (and veri ed) person is about 130, not 180. The brain continues to mature
much, much longer than 14. These are baseless assertions. You don’t expect much rigor from these guru web sites.
They are not a source of any reliable information.
 “In 1980, Roger Lewin published an article in Science, “Is Your Brain Really Necessary?”
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/neuroskeptic/2015/07/26/is-your-brain-really-necessary-revisited/
 And if you are a meditator, as your meditation goes on becoming more and more luminous, your intelligence
will be growing to the last breath of your life. Not only that, even after the last breath your intelligence will
continue to grow — because you are not going to die, only your body will be dying.
Pure unadultrated, pharmaceutical-grade BS.
@Shanmugam
(The comment system ate my comment again. You may see a di erent version later).
 I am not an expert but doing an MRI scan on my brain may reveal few things or give some clue on how to
proceed.
Thank you for the case report. I suspect that as well. And given the recent advances in Deep Learning, researchers
are now able to detect subtle patterns of change that were undetectable by normal visual inspection of scans, and
there are getting better every year now and it is very exciting. But we are still in early stages. The trouble is, one
subject is not enough for this approach. We would need large samples for these algorithms because they have no
semantic understanding of what they are looking at.
R Surve
July 8, 2018 at 8:33 am
In his post above (July 7, 10:54 p.m.) Shanmugam has restricted himself to things which can be scienti cally veri ed,
at least in principle, unlike some of what he has written in his own blog.
@Ravi
We don’t know exactly what Rajneesh meant by “”intelligence”.
“… because you are not going to die, only your body will be dying”: in my opinion this is unveri able by science,
beyond biology. If, as you say, there is no basis for it in science, I don’t dispute it!
“We would need large samples for these algorithms …”: probably di cult; such people may be extremely rare.
R Surve
July 8, 2018 at 8:57 am
@Ravi
Reply to your earlier post (July 7, 7:12 p.m. IST). Suppose I assert that X is living continuously in non-duality. Science
can maybe conclude, after some experiments, that X has detached himself from self. But whether that non-duality
is the ultimate reality, science can’t tell. Isn’t this a limitation?
Ravi
July 8, 2018 at 9:45 am
@R Surve
 We don’t know exactly what Rajneesh meant by “”intelligence”.

We do. He made up his own silly de nition in that article, at the end.
I found the whole article to be very poorly argued. Very unintelligent.
 in my opinion this is unveri able by science, beyond biology.

Some claims are so baseless that they don’t deserve the dignity of veri cation. Rajneesh is simply speaking
ignorantly. It is easy to get away with this when his devotees practically worship him and fawn over him – cult
dynamic.
Anyone can make up any number of unveri able claims. Never mind science, such loose talk indicates lack of basic
intellectual rigor, let alone scienti c rigor.
 such people may be extremely rare.

Not at all. Mystical experiences are fairly common (perhaps not the speci c experiences Shanmugam reports, but
in general). They can also be induced arti cially with ease.
 Suppose I assert that X is living continuously in non-duality.

If you assert anything, YOU have the philosophical burden of proof. Not anyone else. I can say, we all will go to
Mickey Mouse heaven after death. How will you disprove it? Why just duality? I will claim I exist in a million
dimensions. Why is this any worse than Rajneesh talk? Such talk is cheap. I should not be digni ed for childish
make believe like that. Neither should Rajneesh.
R Surve
July 8, 2018 at 9:59 am
@Ravi
It isn’t just Rajneesh. Life after death is asserted by most religions. I thought you would have noticed that.
Going into a trance may not be so rare but living with a continuous experience of non-duality is supposed to be.
You have surely seen the term “jnani”.
You just brush o anything you disagree with. Not a scienti c attitude, although it may not be unusual among
scientists!
James Cornell
July 8, 2018 at 10:48 am
“I was against your ideas of “fully realized yogis” having access to knowledge about particles that scientists can’t and
such woo-laden ideas”
I used that term without de ning it.. I actually never meant to say yogis who are omniscient or who know physics
better than Einstein…
“(your Radin talk – meditating to remotely e ect matter across the world)”
Radin’s experiments are a di erent subject… If you have objections regarding the methodology or results of any of
his experiments, feel free to share it. I am ready to listen to any such objections and to learn more about
experimental design aws and so on… he has done quite a few (hundreds? thousands ?) experiments, and he has
also written books about them. It’s a vast subject. And it’s all about research, it’s about exploration. I didn’t
randomly pick up a Dean Radin’s link just to show you “HEY I HAVE THE PROOF. I KNOW FOR SURE EVERYTHING
ABOUT EVERYTHING.”. I don’t know, that’s why I want to investigate
And I agree with you 100% that we should also read books about biology and neuroscience and psychology and
physics and so on! If we’re really interested in the truth, then we should learn from all sources.
“Evidence exists that individuals can, through parapsychological means, acquire information in regard to remote
targets.” (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001100080003-0.pdf ) <- what
do you say about this? I take it as an indication that we should study these topics open mindedly. How do you take
it? It’s the CIA’s website after all.
“So tell me what cognitive e ects you claim as a consequence and we can discuss experimental setups that will
convince, not you or me, but academic cognitive scientists.”
For example it is possible to be aware/conscious while the physical body is sleeping. I have experienced this, and
the method is not that di cult.
Awareness of every breath can lead to this state. You just keep on watching each breath… the whole day, then in
the evening when you’re going to sleep you keep on watching it… If you manage to have an uninterrupted ow of
awareness of each breath and body movement, the mind will become very silent, you will feel so well. You ‘ll even
feel jerks of energy and have amazing feelings that perhaps people who take drugs experience: for example you
can feel that you have become as big as the room, that the physical body is somehow “inside you”.. You feel you’re
oating, you’re something like a “spherical eld”, and that the body is inside you.. you jump and you can’t believe
that this is possible “Wtf why do I feel my body as being separate, why do I feel like I’m being dilated? <- these
“Secondary E ects” are not the point, though. And they might di er with each person. Perhaps a di erent person
might feel he has become very small instead.
The hyphothesis I want to put forward is that it’s possible to be aware while sleeping!
Personally I’ve succeeded for only half of the night. When you fall asleep, something in you remains awake, you are
still aware of your every breath! You are still aware that “Hey, I am here, conscious!” (NOT as a thought! but as a
presence, as a “ ame” of awareness ) although the mind and the body are put to sleep. And the sleep feels very
good, refreshing.
After a few hours of sleep I woke up to go to the toilet. Afterwards I started loosing my awareness and when I fell
asleep again I became unconscious again…
I had rst heard about being aware during sleep from Osho. Later on I found out that in Bhagavad Gita Krishna has
said that “when others are sleeping, the yogi is still awake” or something like that.
Then one day when I didn’t expect it, it happened to me also. For me it is a very interesting phenomenon, and it is a
con rmation that these yogis knew something. Of course many other con rmatory things happen but this
“awareness during sleep” hypothesis can easily be put to test by the scientists I think.
“Some people bene t from hypnosis. Some are manipulated through it. And some are not very reactive to it. Same
with meditation.”
People are manipulated mostly IN THE NAME of hypnosis… and in the name of meditation.
Hypnosis perhaps can be used in a wrong way too, if you exploit the person to whom you’re giving suggestions. But
that applies to any technology. You can use any discovery in a destructive way or in a creative way…
Also, some people bene t from using computers, some people don’t want to learn much about computers. For
them it’s enough to surf on Facebook. That’s ne too.
I only mentioned these things because I thought this is a blog about science. If this is a blog where people are not
interested into a certain kinds of discoveries, ne..
“My point on Yoga was that most of what is currently promoted as Yoga is quite di erent from what Indian texts
described it as. For example, for Patanjali, the isotonic exercises are not key at all. For him, much of it was about
being mentally disciplined. The exercises were just a minor tool to help towards that.”
I agree one hundred percent with you on this!
“OK. Make a list of ALL the thoughts you had in 10 secs. Remember, you have 100 TRILLION synapses, with several
trillion ring at any instant. How do you intend to prove that you did not miss ANY?”
Ok, one route I’m thinking of is that as thoughts become less and less, the breathing becomes slower and slower. I
know from experience that the breathing can become VERY slow. You feel as if it had stopped. (But I’ve read that it’s
not really stopped, it’s just very very slow). So what I rst want to explore is for how long can one stay into such a
state where the breath is really slow, and whether is it possible or not to enter a deep “breathless” state. A
breathless state perhaps might be associated with a thoughtless state.
The key is that the more aware you are, the less thoughts there are. So a thoughtless state should be associated
with a Very-Aware state. If after reaching that state of full-awareness is possible or not to fall again into
unconscious reveries/habits is what I want to test. I mean, the thoughts might be there in the body, but if you are
able to remain disidenti ed, that’s what I’m aiming for, that’s what I want to test: the capacity of not getting caught
in thoughts unconsciously.
So perhaps there are 2 possibilities: the rst one, as you said, it might not be really possible to watch all the
thoughts and activities in the mind/brain/body. They might happen automatically and mechanically. If this is the
case, I consider that the ability to remain unidenti ed with all these activities is what makes one a real yogi. Not
sure how to test this in the laboratory, but perhaps there are ways. Also, there are indications that although
thoughts are mechanical, the awareness has in uence upon them… so I think this possibility is not very probable. I
think a very aware consciousness can lead to the impossibility of mechanical thinking. All thinking will be conscious.
or the second possibility: you can watch every thought as it arises. All thinking is conscious and you’re the master of
it.
“If you are seeing these as cases where the mind/consciousness is beyond the nervous system, that is simply
incorrect.”
What you can’t deny is that some of these cases are anomalies. So I see them as anomalies, that’s all.
“Please read neuroscience from proper formal sources.”

Sure. The point here is though, that we must also understand the mechanisms of all these anomalies. If
neuroscience can’t explain how those mathematicians with (almost) no brains can still have a mind, then we must
not remain dogmatic and sti , we must explore. Neuroscience unfortunately works with some unproved
assumptions, as if they are proven. That’s not scienti c !
By saying this I am not criticising all the ndings and methods of neuroscience, no, not at all! I’m just pointing out
that we should not take an assumption as truth.
“Don’t get these arguments from people like Radin, who do not seem to have any neuroscience training (along with
not also not training in quantum mechanics, but claiming to combine the two for non-science audience).”
Radin is talking about the results he has been observing in his experiments. His arguments are not “Look that
quantum mecahics say that phenomena X is possible!”, but : “We’ve been observing these results and we must nd
how they work. Let’s study, let’s see.” He is trained in engineering and computer science and couple of other
domains and his work is all experimental.
Shanmugam
“and I have already discussed from whose book I learnt it” Just say the name ! It’s OSHO, right ?
This name is dangerous
I think we should say it, no matter how dangerous it is.
James Cornell
July 8, 2018 at 10:55 am
Ravi:”They are not a source of any reliable information.”
But I didn’t quote Osho as a source of reliable information… You seem not to know much about him.
“I came to know this day that Chinese sannyasins are a little bit upset because I may have told you that a few of the
Zen masters are Japanese, and their disturbance is that they are Chinese.
I am not a very informed person. I don’t speak out of information, I speak out of my transformation. I know that
Zen belongs to no country, so to me it does not matter whether they were Chinese, or Japanese, or Indians. At least
Zen should not be con ned to any country, to any race, to any language. It belongs to the whole universe. So what
is the fuss all about?
I have never read the sutras. Maneesha nds the sutras; I simply speak spontaneously. My concern is Zen, not
China or Japan. And you will see Sekito himself says, “I don’t belong to the east, I don’t belong to the west, I don’t
belong to the south, I don’t belong to the north.” If Zen is also to be con ned to a race, to a language, to a certain
part of the earth, then it is not Zen.
So you have to be very clear. Neither am I a scholar, nor am I knowledgeable, informative. What I am saying is my
moment-to-moment response. And my consideration for Zen is that it belongs to the whole universe.
So don’t be bothered. It is good that you got upset. I love upsetting people. And do you see the trivia you get upset
about? What does it matter where Sekito was born — China or Japan?” Osho
He is a Seer, and he managed to share his vision while at the same time he made sure he can’t be believed. You
can’t believe in him even if you wanted to.
“And that’s my device – to give you contradictory statements. That is my design. It is a NAQSHBANDI. I contradict
myself so much for a certain reason: if you go on listening to me, sooner or later you will stop believing. That is the
whole purpose – because you will know it is meaningless to believe this man. Tomorrow he will contradict himself.
Before you are established in a belief he will contradict it. He will not leave you settled in any shelter. Once you
know this, slowly, slowly, the mind’s old habit of clinging to a certain concept disappears. It can disappear only if
you are continuously contradicted. If I am very consistent I will become your belief, I will become your church, I will
become your religion. And I don’t want to become your church or your dogma or your religion.” – Osho
But you can learn meditation from his books. That’s what I did, and that’s why I wanted to quote his vision about
the intelligence growth and the stopping of aging of the brain cells How did he know at that time, when
scientists hadn’t yet done brain scans to see the e ects of meditation on the brain? How did he know that those
cells can regenerate?
He knew it from his experience – so he talked about this phenomena. Note that he didn’t talk about cells, he talked
about intelligence. But his answer is to a question that speci cally asked about those aging cells! He was con dent
that there is a link.
“I am not a man who wants you to believe in anything, including me. I am against belief as such.
That’s why I have been continuously contradicting myself, so nobody can make any belief out of my statements. No
scholar, no theologian is going to make any system out of my statements. In thirty years I must have contradicted
myself thirty thousand times. Anybody working on me for a Ph.D. will soon be found in a madhouse. And my
reason for doing so is crystal clear. If I were making statements consistent with each other, you would not listen to
me, you would make a belief system out of it.” Osho
Osho’s video discourses and books, have another great use: deprogramming. They are not encyclopedias. They are
full of Vision but presented in such a way that you can’t make a belief system out of it. Note that I’ve researched
and studied Osho for many years, it’s not the same situation as with Sadhguru. They’re incomparable. I was a open-
minded about Sadhguru for a while, I said “who knows…” maybe he is also a daring person and maybe he has a real
vision as well. I should rst observe, only then judge. So I observed and saw that he is an imitator and an exploiter.
His cool stu is mostly crap but he was cunning enough to steal some stories and ideas from Osho in order to creat
in his listeners the illusion that he knows something and that he is unconventional.
Many of Osho’s anecdotes are modi cations, or pure inventions. You can get the point, the message, or you can
miss it. But he is not speaking to share information…. What I really like about him is that he hit hard not only the
materialistically obsessed people. but also the spiritualistically obsessed. His approach will annoy anyone who can’t
see the point. And that’s great, because some people just want to misunderstand.. one should not compromise and
say “likeable” things just for their sake.
“Maneesha has asked another question:

OUR BELOVED MASTER,
THE STORY OF BUDDHA MECHANICALLY BRUSHING AWAY THE FLY IS PUZZLING. WAS IT
STILL POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO DO SOMETHING WITHOUT BEING CONSCIOUS, SOMETIMES
MECHANICAL? I THOUGHT ONCE ONE WAS ENLIGHTENED, ONE COULD NOT HELP BUT BE
CONSCIOUS IN ALL THAT ONE DID, TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY.
Maneesha, you have raised a right question.
I have spoken with Buddhist monks in their assemblies. The head of the Buddhists in India, Anand Kausalyayan,
was very much puzzled by the story because it is not written anywhere. But even he could not ask the right
question. He asked me, “Where is it written?”
I said, “That does not matter. You can write it!”
But he said, “The story is beautiful, makes the point of mechanical behavior and conscious behavior very clearly.”
But even he could not ask the right question.
Your question is far more signi cant. I was hoping someday somebody would ask. It is true that once a buddha you
are always a buddha. Then how do I explain the story?
This was a device for Ananda, who was following him. Even on the rst occasion he was not mechanical, he just
acted mechanically – with full consciousness. And then he stopped, and again moved his hand.
Ananda said, “What are you doing? The y is gone.”
Buddha said, “The rst time I did it mechanically; that was wrong. I continued to talk with you. I should have been
more conscious and aware, more graceful, more loving in shooing the y. That’s what I am doing now. The y is not
there, but what I should have done – and I missed the situation – I am making up for it.”
As far as I know, Buddha could never be mechanical. He acted mechanically for the sake of Ananda to make the
clear distinction between the conscious act and the unconscious act – and he made it really beautifully. But it is not
in Buddhist scriptures. What to do? – the story is so beautiful that it should be.
In my book on DHAMMAPADA I have written it. After all, Buddha has not written anything. Anybody writing
anything is writing after Gautam Buddha – somebody one day after, somebody one year after. I am writing twenty-
ve centuries after! And a living river should move on to new territories, new pastures. The moment it stops owing
it becomes stagnant and dead.” –
http://oshosearch.net/Convert/Articles_Osho/Isan_No_Footprints_in_the_Blue_Sky/Osho-Isan-No-Footprints-in-the-
Blue-Sky-00000007.html
“Be a non-believer and go on doubting me. If there is something in me, the trust is bound to arise. If there is not,
then it is good not to trust.” – http://osholibrary.org/book/72/1?i=1
“Hence my teaching is in a way very simple if you can see the point. If you miss the point it is very di cult.” Osho
“Not only that, even after the last breath your intelligence will continue to grow — because you are not going to die,
only your body will be dying.”
(Ravi:)Pure unadultrated, pharmaceutical-grade BS.
I don’t know whether it’s BS or not. I am ignorant, so I am willing to explore and learn So far I have indications
(from my experiences) that life after physical death is very plausible. But I don’t have any conclusive evidence yet,
so I can’t say either way.
You seem to be pretty sure. Great. You know much about life. I don’t know that much, I want to investigate and nd
out.
James Cornell
July 8, 2018 at 11:11 am
(VJ:) “James, are you sure it can work that if someone doesn’t like doing anything then being lazy is not wrong? I am
asking it because possibly everyone wants it. I think man did not invent work to kill boredom or to express his
talent, he had to do it for survival.”
my response: https://pastebin.com/Gk2SnThH
Ravi
July 8, 2018 at 8:53 pm
@James Cornell
Perhaps I am wasting my time explaining science to you both. Just to be clear, I am not discussing with you as
equals. I am educating you, as a teacher, not debating you. This is speaking matter of factly, not being
condescending. I am educating people who might have pursued a di erent track in education, those who might not
have taken a Biology class since high school and therefore have the misunderstanding of science that 15-18 year
olds have.
Currently your understanding of science is paper thin. You (and most people who try to defend these gurus)
however believe that you actually understand this quite well. Consuming just documentaries, paperbacks and
sensationalistic blogs give you an illusion that you understand these things far more than you actually do. Please
look up Dunning Kruger E ect.
I already provided you links which explained Radin’s aws in methods. You appear to have not bothered to read
them or were unable to understand them. I already mentioned Russell Targ’s awful Remote Viewing experiments.
Why would you then point me to Stargate les, as if you are showing something new? You don’t seem to be
carefully reading.
I am glad you learnt that Jaggi is a fraud. I was surprised when you posted on how you came to this realization
because after I posted the most egregious misunderstandings that Jaggi has about science, the thing that clicked
for you was some statement he had about relationships. Perhaps the same needs to happen to you about
Rajneesh, Radin and Drake. Rajneesh in particular is speaking the same level of nonsense as Jaggi, with the same
level of ignorance about science. But as of now, you are completely convinced that this is wisdom.
Rajneesh isn’t being incoherent to save you from belief. He is incoherent because that is all he can be, however
strongly he may assert otherwise. He is not contradicting himself deliberately. He can’t help but contradict himself.
He is not just a cult leader. He is the very archetype of a cult leader, only a couple of steps below those like Jim
Jones and Asahara. Rajneesh isn’t deprogramming you. You need deprogramming after you fall for him (and you
have). Please read a few books on cults, with at least one that also discusses Rajneesh. It will put him in context of
the phenomenon. List them for me after you have. Don’t just read web surf and imagine you understood the point.
I don’t believe that you have the basic science competencies to understand any of my arguments at this point.
Hopefully, you will take the time and acquire them over the next 5 years or so. There is no shortcut to
understanding science. Blogs are not substitutes for textbooks and university classes. Forums are not a place to
teach you science.
Until you have taken at least one neuroscience class, you really have no idea what you are talking about it. Nothing I
have spoken are Ravi’s special views. These are standard views that any Professor at any ranked university will
hold. If you have a good, recognized university close by, go there and ask for a neuroscience class. They will
probably tell you nish a few pre-requisite classes in basic biology rst. Finish those, take that neuroscience class
and then ask the instructor if the hydrocephalus cases disprove neuroscience’s position on consciousness. My
hunch is: you will realize by that time how silly you have been and won’t need to ask.
Don’t just say you are ne with the idea of taking classes. Actually take them. Don’t just say you are “willing to learn”
and only read blogs, cult and pseudoscience materials. Read the standard ones rst and then read whatever you
like.
R Surve
July 8, 2018 at 10:28 pm
@Ravi
Both? Maybe you’re including me; you mentioned only James Cornell. I’ll assume it. I am not defending Rajneesh. I
don’t think he really knew what he was talking about. His knowledge, it seems to me, was only theoretical. (I don’t
know his views on science; that’s not the point.) He had a good, theoretical understanding of meditation, etc. and
convinced a lot of people that he was an Acharya, later Bhagwan. But from the information in these blogs I
conclude that he was quite egoistic, de nitely not enlightened. As for Radin, I haven’t read any of his books but the
blurbs are not impressive.
You’ve put in a lot of e ort and I appreciate it. But I don’t think we’ll come to any agreement. My limited purpose
today (8:33, 8:57, 9:59 a.m. IST) was to demonstrate the limitations of science and I think I achieved it. You had to
fall back to ridicule and “philosophical burden of proof”.
Standard views that any professor …? Or standard prejudices (e.g. atheism)?
Ravi
July 8, 2018 at 11:27 pm
@R Surve
Both, with respect to narrowly de ning and understanding what science is, not both with respect to Rajneesh.
No, you have not demonstrated any limitation of science so far. The di erence between us is that you dignify non-
robust claims and argue that science can’t handle them. I don’t and say that the problem is with claims that lack
intellectual rigor, not the methods.
The claims of religions which were created when even the most basic aspects of biology and the world were not
understood don’t have any knowledge value. We can give them a pass since people then really did not have a
choice. But people in 20th and 21st century should not get that pass.
There is no case for theism in science today.
Philosophical burden of proof is not a fallback. It is the basic standard of argumentation, even in non-science
matters. These are well discussed ideas. I mentioned them before – Russell’s Teapot and Sagan’s Dragon.
Sadanand
July 10, 2018 at 6:07 pm
Why nirmukta is obsesses with this guy? I heard about both Narendra nayak and jaggi vasudev from this site only
Shanmugam P
July 11, 2018 at 10:20 pm
I just came across a letter written by Swami Vivekananda today. Seeing his skepticism and the nature of questions
he asked in that letter, I think all these people who are blindly supporting Jaggi Vasudev should learn from him.
The following letter was written to Pramadadas Mitra of Varanasi.
BARANAGORE,
17th Aug., 1889.
DEAR SIR,
You have expressed embarrassment in your last favour for being addressed reverentially. But the blame attaches
not to me but to your own excellent qualities. I wrote in one letter before that from the way I feel attracted by your
lofty virtues, it seems we had some a nity from previous births. I make no distinction as to householder or
Sannyasin in this, that for all time my head shall bend low in reverence wherever I see greatness, broadness of
heart, and holiness — Shântih! Shântih! Shântih! My prayer is that among the many people embracing Sannyâsa
nowadays, greedy of honour, posing renunciation for the sake of a living, and fallen o from the ideal on both
sides, may one in a lakh at least become high-souled like you! To you my Brahmin fellow-disciples who have heard
of your noble virtues tender their best prostrations.
About one amongst my several questions to which you sent your replies, my wrong idea is corrected. For this I shall
remain indebted to you for ever. Another of these questions was: Whether Acharya Shankara gives any conclusion
regarding caste based on Gunas as mentioned in Puranâs like the Mahabharata. If he does, where is it to be found?
I have no doubt that according to the ancient view in this country, caste was hereditary, and it cannot also be
doubted that sometimes the Shudras used to be oppressed more than the helots among the Spartans and the
negroes among the Americans! As for myself, I have no partiality for any party in this caste question, because I
know it is a social law and is based on diversity of Guna and Karma. It also means grave harm if one bent on going
beyond Guna and Karma cherishes in mind any caste distinctions. In these matters, I have got some settled ideas
through the grace of my Guru but, if I come to know of your views, I may just con rm some points or rectify others
in them. One doesn’t have honey dripping unless one pokes at the hive — so I shall put you some more questions;
and looking upon me as ignorant and as a boy, please give proper replies without taking any o ence.
Is the Mukti, which the Vedanta-Sutras speaks of, one and the same with the Nirvana of the Avadhuta-Gitâ and
other texts?
What is really meant by Nirvana if, according to the aphorism, “Without the function of creating etc.”2 (ibid., IV. iv.
7), none can attain to the fullest Godhead?
Chaitanya-deva is said to have told Sârvabhauma at Puri, “I understand the Sutras (aphorisms) of Vyasa, they are
dualistic; but the commentator makes them, monistic, which I don’t understand.” Is this true? Tradition says,
Chaitanya-deva had a dispute with Prakashananda Sarasvati on the point, and Chaitanya-deva won. One
commentary by Chaitanya-deva was rumoured to have been existing in Prakashananda’s Math.
In the Tantra, Acharya Shankara has been called a crypto-Buddhist; views expressed in Prajnâparamitâ, the
Buddhist Mâhâyana book, perfectly tally with the Vedantic views propounded by the Acharya. The author of
Panchadashi also says, “What we call Brahman is the same truth as the Shunya of the Buddhist.” What does all this
mean?
Why has no foundation for the authority of the Vedas been adduced in the Vedanta-Sutras? First, it has been said
that the Vedas are the authority for the existence of God, and then it has been argued that the authority for the
Vedas is the text: “It is the breath of God.” Now, is this statement not vitiated by what in Western logic is called an
argument in a circle?
The Vedanta requires of us faith, for conclusiveness cannot be reached by mere argumentation. Then why, has the
slightest aw, detected in the position of the schools of Sânkhya and Nyâya, been overwhelmed with a fusillade of
dialectics? In whom, moreover, are we to put our faith? Everybody seems to be mad over establishing his own view;
if, according to Vyasa, even the great Muni Kapila, “the greatest among perfected souls”,3 is himself deeply involved
in error, then who would say that Vyasa may not be so involved in a greater measure? Did Kapila fail to understand
the Vedas?
According to the Nyaya, “Shabda or Veda (the criterion of truth), is the word of those who have realised the
highest”; so the Rishis as such are omniscient. Then how are they proved, according to the Surya-siddhânta, to be
ignorant of such simple astronomical truths? How can we accept their intelligence as the refuge to ferry us across
the ocean of transmigratory existence, seeing that they speak of the earth as triangular, of the serpent Vâsuki as
the support of the earth and so on?
If in His acts of creation God is dependent on good and evil Karmas, then what does it avail us to worship Him?
There is a ne song of Nareshchandra, where occurs the following: “If what lies in one’s destiny is to happen
anyhow, O Mother, then what good all this invoking by the holy name of Durgâ?”
True, it is improper to hold many texts on the same subject to be contradicted by one or two. But why then are the
long-continued customs of Madhuparka4 and the like repealed by one or two such texts as, “The horse sacri ce,
the cow sacri ce, Sannyasa, meat-o erings in Shrâddha”, etc.? If the Vedas are eternal, then what are the meaning
and justi cation of such speci cations as “this rule of Dharma is for the age of Dvâpara,” “this for the age of Kali”,
and so forth?
The same God who gives out the Vedas becomes Buddha again to annul them; which of these dispensations is to
be obeyed? Which of these remains authoritative, the earlier or the later one?
The Tantra says, in the Kali-Yuga the Veda-Mantras are futile. So which behest of God, the Shiva, is to be followed?
Vyasa makes out in the Vedanta-Sutras that it is wrong to worship the tetrad of divine manifestation, Vâsudeva,
Sankarshana, etc., and again that very Vyasa expatiates on the great merits of that worship in the Bhâgavata! Is this
Vyasa a madman?
I have many doubts besides these, and, hoping to have them dispelled from my mind through your kindness, I shall
lay them before you in future. Such questions cannot be all set forth except in a personal interview; neither can as
much satisfaction be obtained as one expects to. So I have a mind to lay before you all these facts when presenting
myself to you, which I expect will be very soon, by the grace of the Guru.
I have heard it said that without inner progress in the practice of religion, no true conclusion can be reached
concerning these matters, simply by means of reasoning; but satisfaction, at least to some extent, seems to be
necessary at the outset.
Yours etc.,
VIVEKANANDA.
It can be read here:

http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_6/epistles_second_series/009_sir.htm
VJ
July 12, 2018 at 9:57 am
@ James Cornell, Glad you could see Jagdish Vasudev as a mimic man of many especially Rajneesh. Infact if you had
read, listened to Rajneesh a lot, its really not di cult as well to reach to this conclusion. So I would request you to
read something of signi cance, to know that Rajneesh was also copying.
For an instance when I rst read Fritjof Kapra’s Tao Of Physics, I was thinking Rajneesh already new all what Kapra
was saying because may be he had read it too.
And now just for the sake of argument let’s say, Rajneesh’s contradictions are like- suppose I say, ”The truth is I
always tell lies.” Would you believe my this very statement? If yes, then how can you believe for this is also the part
of my ‘always telling lies’. If not, then that means you believe my earlier lies.
His contradictions were not because he wanted to speak contradictory. He actually spoke so much without analysis.
You ask him anything, he would not only reply but take many hours. Give many examples, tell many lies and what
not.
Once a man stood and complaint, “Acharya ji, you said di erent thing about this last month in Indore and you said
di erent yesterday, Why?” and he replies, “I did not say that to you In Indore. Why do you listen to the stu not
mend for you?”
On another occasion when a man complains on why Rajneesh said that Geeta is more a psychoanalysis book and
less a religious. On it he defends himself very rigorously, says he never speaks anything without thinking very
deeply about anything and anything.
Once he said he has read 150 thousand that is 1.5 lac books. I wonder how many books he could nish in a day,
even with ying eyes.
The thing is (in my opinion) that he got such a stupid, unaware, and easy crowd that he could go on smoothly, like
Jaggi is going these days. He had a right sense of understanding what people want to listen instead of understand
about the truth of nature as he claimed. He was a cunning man instead of intelligent. I
Wish you read the philosophers he mentioned. There are many and chances are you will know many a lies about
him. But people mostly don’t read tough books and keep on listening to Osho’s audios, watching Jaggi Vasudev on
You Tube….People want to feel like intelligent and superior with their laziness intact.
Brandy Wessel
July 20, 2018 at 4:01 pm
Wow. You quoted a LOT of scienti c NAMES, but yet had ANY (AND I MEAN ANY) scienti c logic to support your
GINORMOUS RANT…..Im not sure if you had heard of a quantum physicist Steven Hawkings? He most certainly laid
to rest all of the previous (so called) scientist you so passionately stated in this articles ideas of physics. So with that
said, you may not like what certain people have to say, none of us do, however the non-Informative ridiculous
negative banter on a person shows personal issues with the writer and not informative (thought provoking)
reasons as to question a belief or standpoint on a topic. Maybe psychology might be a good area for you to trundle
in? Perhaps?
R Surve
July 20, 2018 at 4:13 pm
@Brandy Wessel: It is not at all clear who you replied. Please specify it.
@Ravi: After a few days.
Sushobhan Mandal
August 21, 2018 at 7:19 pm
I bow down to your e orts
RAMESH
PLEASE NOTE “””THE (R) THE POINT”””, THAT SCIENCE ALWAYS BEND TO CHANGES, TODAY ONE MAN (SO CALLED
AS SCIENTIST OR WHATEVER) SAID SOME THING ABOUT SOME THING BASED ON HIS EXPERIMENTS AT
PERMISSIBLE LIMITS, WILL DEFINITELY CHANGE WHEN SOME ONE FIND OUT”” JUST OPPOSITE “””TO THAT THE
PREVIOUS ONE, “””” SCIENCE IS NOT A FIXED THEORY EVER””. DONT BLINDLY (REPEATEDLY) BLAME SOME ONE OR
SOME THING WITHOUT KNOWING THE THINGS ACCURATELY.
VJ
October 25, 2018 at 10:59 am
@ Ramesh we all know that every theory is unboundly changeable with the arrival of new ones which appear more
correct on the tests. Even the gravitational principles can proved wrong with time and may not be. Its not for
nothing that we believe gravity, we have no better tool to understand the physical phenomenal. There is no
absolute knowledge, no nal theory in this setting of endless time and space.
My point is, if you are saying that JV may be correct on this basis then he is un t (unreliable as well) to make
comments.
Do you want your words ‘WITHOUT KNOWING THE THINGS ACCURATELY’ be interpreted di erently? if so Please
clarify…
Malav
Tarrika hello,
nice you have spent alot of time writing a lecture/essay on just one person and his views of science, what you forget
is, he himself appreciates what science has to do human population. and how it has elevated our standards of
living.
i see that you havent replied since long still though let me share my views on it. Pardon my language as its not my
rst language. I would try to summarize as short as possible.
his basic point is yogic sciences are very ancient. when egyptians or europeans were struggling nding out the basic
principles we in india had Hanuman chalisa not written but in spoken form. it was always taught orally. in which the
distance between sun and earth is mentioned. kindly nd time to read it. so the point is he is talking not about the
ages of Ramayan but beyond that. And that ancient science is di erent then todays science. Atleast thats what i
have perceived. in the lost vedas which were destryoed by mughals and then britishers still there are few parts of it
left, in which the atom is described. and there is no way to nd out how old actually vedas are. but there has been
recent ndings that in Gujarat state of india a 9000 year old port has been found. similar port has been found out
in southern india. if half of this is true it means our civilization is very old. it had great sense of understanding about
the nature around and the fundamentals of the universe. But most importantly the knowledge was never
commercialised. the knowledge for just seeking the knowledge and not to make something out of it and sell it to
the world. so no misuses happend and people lived for thousands of years without technological products for
conveniences. U look at yourself what we have done to earth in past 150 years since scienti c break through.
so in my understanding he is not undermining todays ways of science he is just saying its very unfortunate that
instead of the quest to know something science has become means to quest human greed. as there is always
economics attached to it.
i think in many of his videos he has clearly stated it. And i think u have wasted yours and ours time just to get it in
right perspective.
Malav
i just read again that u have mentioned the superiority of Western science. hmmmm
u know when i was young around 10 or something. i have never heard of Divorces. only in the past 10-15 years i am
hearing it too often. Now we have been inferior in past or superior now just like the west by immitating them and
demolishing our family structures is totally your call to think about.
i think it will take u few lives to even understand the indian culture. why it is structured the way it is. U need to go
back to in history few thousand years, and collect data from point to point, and try to understand what we were.
and why only in past 1000 years we have become what we are today. The superiority and inferiority word will
vanish from your mind.
IR
Malav
“But most importantly the knowledge was never commercialised.”
So why is Mr. Vasudev commercializing his methods? Let him publish all the Isha methods and course material
online.
“u know when i was young around 10 or something. i have never heard of Divorces.”
Me too. What I also remember is husbands coming home drunk and beating their wives and depending on your
de nition, raping them while drunk. The wives then cried themselves to sleep. They had no means of making a
livelihood of their own, no support from society if they left from this torture.
Now, that kind of husband can expect a divorce, the woman can expect to nd another husband or live on her own.
No thanks, I think we will keep our present.
Reuben Singh
Ravi
How do you explain chanting of mantras and its healing bene ts and full lling ones wishes ?
Sadguru spoke abt mantras link provided below
https://youtu.be/tIYEBXenJV8
Ahms
Maybe it’s all bullshit.

But I have been doing Isha yoga and it’s saved me from my own mind following very unfortunate circumstances
which took me to the edge.
And to the scientists for whom science is like their baby and they want to be aggressive about it, I don’t know what
to say to you really.
I could have been reliant on drugs. I have been lucky I don’t need to as yogic practices have sorted me right out and
have helped me excel in the last few years in all aspects of life.
Anything dharmic is an easy target as followers of such faiths often don’t do much about the criticism in
comparison with some others.
It’s easy to just rubbish it all.

It’s easy to rubbish something which is experiential in nature because who reading your bashing will actually have
the commitment to experience ?
The original poster wrote such a long ass post, it was like a dissertation. That level of dedication to bash a guru is
amazing and thought provoking.
This can go on like a tennis match but if certain individuals want to feel superior. Their science is the only truth and
the only way to knowledge then it’s their life and their experiences and consciousness.
Likely you may think I’m an idiot and some kind of cult member etc that’s cool.
I’m not, I’d love to go and stay in the ashram for some time but I have family commitments. Those who give up
certain things to go there, you may quantify how they are not making money like in previous jobs- they are not
stupid the money didn’t buy them what they seek.
Maybe don’t measure people by your own desires. If you only want more money that’s cool. If a guy walks away
from that money because he realised there was a bigger picture, good for him. He isn’t stupid and can go back and
earn any time, but he hungers for something else.
I’m not accusing anyone here but some Indians now are almost apologetic for the Vedic sciences as they model
themselves on their western counterparts.
I’m glad for those who are proud of their history.
Thomas Babington Macaulay, 1st Baron Macaulay 1835.
I have traveled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a
thief. Such wealth I have seen in the country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we
would conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural
heritage, and therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the
Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem,
their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.”
Jai
Ahms – Macaulay never said that.
https://timeso ndia.indiatimes.com/TOP-ARTICLE-Interpretation-Of-Dreams/articleshow/4455896.cms
It is just a fake quote that is all over the internet.
Jai
Ahms – Macaulay never said that.
timeso ndia . indiatimes . com / TOP-ARTICLE-Interpretation-Of-Dreams / articleshow / 4455896.cms
It is just a fake quote that is all over the internet.
Mayank Pathak
Nice article. I used to be a fan of Sadhguru until he started preaching this pseudo scienti c crap. I nd it hilarious
that how can someone teaching meditation, self-awareness and peace be so unaware that he is oblivious to the
fact that he doesn’t understand science. Not just Sadhguru, there are a lot of people who get all excited by pop
science videos on internet ultimately to misunderstand concepts. Also, I think Sadhguru’s self-image is so buoyed
up because of his huge followership that he thinks he knows it all.
AGYAT
You are invited to ask question to SADHGURU directly on his webisite , or on asksadhguru…….jo just go their and
help us to make more educated in tetms of science and spirituality .
भवतु सबब मंगलम ।
I am a science stident with spiritual mind.
Amd what meditation has given me and many of human being , i dont think science would be ever able to deliever
so #
Mayank Pathak
@agyat : I agree that true peace of mind and happiness comes from within, not just from learning physics ,
accumulating wealth etc. But that doesn’t make Sadhguru a scientist. Regarding topics relating to science, he is
almost always wrong. And he has no right to mislead people into believing wrong things.
Yogesh Khandke
I’ll give a small example – the concept of थूल, सु म, शु य & िशव look these concepts up. Why were these extremely
sophisticated and intricate and nuanced concepts stated? What was the need for them in a pre ic engine, pre
electricity pre anaesthesia, pre microscope/telescope, pre vaccine, pre vaccine world.
It is stupid to compare what Verne & Asimov wrote and concepts as the above, as modern sci- is the extrapolation
of what they knew from the science of their times.
Ranting as this article brims full with isn’t an expression of rationality.
venkat
March 4, 2019 at 2:00 pm
Simple questions to the author

What is science? do scientists create life? what is rationality? how do scientists de ne life? are there are levels of
life? Do you think vedas are waste of time? if yes, support your argument from the rst verse in the RIGVEDA to the
last verse in the ATHARVA VEDA. have you rst of all studied them. You can’t prove or disprove anything without
reading what is there in them and comparing them with the practicality of life. Have you done that? if yes, please
give us proof. Do you have the complete understanding of the universe and its laws. did the scientists create the
laws and made the universe follow them? or they only discovered the laws that already existed? who made these
laws and why are they still working? Once you honestly do these things and give us proof, we can go to the next
level. PS : – I am no supporter of any GURU and philosophy. In fact i am an atheist. But we should not use our little
knowledge to say that we know everything. SCIENCE may accept the existence of god. IT is OK. Science can deny the
existence of GOD that is also OK. But when Science says IT IS GOD, there is something seriously wrong. negation of
everything without solid proof is the saddest part of our Indian self proclaimed intellectuals. -nothing personal
thanks and regards
VS
April 8, 2019 at 2:12 pm
This is the state of education in India.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/elections/lok-sabha/india/job-crisis-just-went-from-bad-to-worse-for-
indias-engineers/-vikas-kamble/slideshow/68372433.cms
Out of 10
3 engineers with Bachelor’s degree can’t spell the word Bachelor and then they wonder why they can’t get jobs.
1 can’t spell the word training even when it is a part of his institute name.
80-95% engineers and MBAs are considered unemployable by employers since they lack minimal skills.
Our college graduates can’t think, even the 1% graduates with well-paying jobs. Nor can their lecturers half the
time. They are easy targets for con-men.
VJ
April 8, 2019 at 5:01 pm
Dear Venkat, i think I have read the full thread and because it is a blog, so I am trying to answer you on my behalf.
“What is science? do scientists create life? what is rationality? how do scientists de ne life? are there are levels of
life? Do you think vedas are waste of time?”
Author never claimed or invalidated or dismissed anything of them. Ravi has referred many a time about Russel’s
Tea Pot as well. Hope that answers your questions, in an abstract way though.
“…….if yes, support your argument from the rst verse in the RIGVEDA to the last verse in the ATHARVA VEDA.have
you rst of all studied them. You can’t prove or disprove anything without reading what is there in them and
comparing them with the practicality of life. Have you done that? if yes, please give us proof.”
He has written that ancients were not at all stupids or inferior in the given situation and time they belonged to.
“Do you have the complete understanding of the universe and its laws.”
No.
“…did the scientists create the laws and made the universe follow them? or they only discovered the laws that
already existed? …”
Its a funny question and to add more fun to it I should say ,Yes.”
“who made these laws and why are they still working?”
Here, ‘Who’ is the wrong word to start the question with. It could be ‘What’ and then be a discussable thing. I can’t
clearly tell you however that what it was/were/ is/ are.
“….Once you honestly do these things and give us proof, we can go to the next level. ”
Waiting for the next level.
“PS : – I am no supporter of any GURU and philosophy. In fact i am an atheist. But we should not use our little
knowledge to say that we know everything. SCIENCE may accept the existence of god. IT is OK. Science can deny the
existence of GOD that is also OK. But when Science says IT IS GOD, there is something seriously wrong.”
No comments on these, for they are personal and they are not questions as well. But this para confuses as it seems
contradicting what you asked in your questions above. AND science doesn’t claim itself God, nor does the author.
” negation of everything without solid proof is the saddest part of our Indian self proclaimed intellectuals.”
That is true and the relevance and importance of this sentence remains equal if the rst word ‘negation is replaced
by the word ‘acceptance’.
“-nothing personal thanks and regards”

Thanks, same to you.
Somesh
May 12, 2019 at 8:15 pm
Tarkika : You have failed to prove wrong Jaggi in any one of your examples. None of your example is complete. Jaggi
is not after science. You are after science. He just says we are yet to invent so many things through science. But if
you touch yourself within you, you will get happiness which you are looking through extra means. Go inside you.
Really it works my friend. If you practice correctly what is said in Yogi terms, you really get jolts of electric shocks.
Try. Science not always….
VJ
May 12, 2019 at 11:27 pm
Somesh, you really need to know a lot about what else jaggi says about science ….this is very little you know about
his spoken words….
VS
May 13, 2019 at 8:51 am
Somesh, sounds like you are having a seizure. Stop and consult a good doctor before it is too late.
https://www.epilepsy.com/article/2014/3/meditation-epilepsy-silent-debate-wages
F68.10
May 20, 2019 at 4:01 am
“He wrongly claims that the scienti c method is not the only approach to understanding the universe.”
Unfortunately, the scienti c method has limitations. For instance, a simple statement like 2+2=4 is not a product of
the scienti c method in its strictest sense. It is nevertheless a true statement about a factual claim. So, yes, if your
understanding of Science excludes Mathematics, then factually, you see that the scienti c method is not the only
approach to understanding the universe.
Science is only a subset of Rationality.
And Rationality can still allow us to understand the Universe.
Please dispute that analysis if you can.
Other stu I nd inaccurate in your article. For instance:
“Mr. Vasudev says, “They seem to have found something near to what they are referring to as God particle [sic]. The
Higgs boson, that has a mass of certain signi cance.” Evidently, he knows nothing about what he is saying. If the
entire premise of Mr. Vasudev’s sermon is the a rmation of the existence of a Higgs-boson like particle, shouldn’t
he at the very least, understand what the Higgs-boson is?”
Let’s break down things a bit.
“If the entire premise of Mr. Vasudev’s sermon is the a rmation of the existence of a Higgs-boson like particle”
Factually, it’s not. Look, pay attention to the wording: “THEY SEEM to have found”. His claim is factually true. And
your characterization of his claim is factually wrong.
Language matters.
“shouldn’t he at the very least, understand what the Higgs-boson is?”
Well no. You can make factual claims about the state of a given topic while not understanding all of the
underpinnings of a given topic. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Being a skeptic does not give one the right to misrepresent other’s position and spout bullshit. Language matters.
You’re giving a bad image of skeptics by behaving that way. I do not like that all.
I’m not saying this guy is right on everything. Why would I? But if you want to dispute speci c points, pick your
battles well enough and be accurate with your language.
NT
May 24, 2019 at 8:32 pm
@F68.10
Are you serious? Have you read the thread? Is there some kind of training camp where they teach Vasudev’s
followers to completely ignore all clear factual errors he makes that are pointed out and somehow drag the
discussion to hair-splitting language and pseudo-philosophy? This seems to be happening a lot.
Here are some of Jaggi Vasudev’s “factual” statements for you to chew on.
Let’s see Jaggi Vasudev’s school of toxicology, just from this thread.
a.) Mercury is not poisonous

b.) But a lunar eclipse makes food poisonous
c.) Mercury passes through your tissues due to speci c gravity and kills you
d.) He can detect poisons using his special pendulum
And you want to talk about skeptics “spouting bullshit”?
If you think your stupid pendulum is detecting negative energy or poisons, talking about science is not for you,
forget about Bosons. Maybe being a meditation teacher doesn’t make you understand anything other than just
that.
“I’m not saying this guy is right on everything.”
The discussion isn’t whether he is perfect or only slightly imperfect – great misdirection. It is whether he is “smarter
than a 5th grader”. Great show and they should put him in it, he will fail all questions but still say he won. Next day
his Youtube channels will make a video with the thumbnail of him having an aura and the 5th grader looking really
pathetic and discuss how he shut up that primary school know-it-all like a boss.
What Vasudev and many half-wits like him in India have is Einstein complex. You can read about it here.
https://thewire.in/the-sciences/poor-albert-einstein-his-wrong-theories-and-post-truths
Every footpath intellect wants to think he is an unrecognized philosopher and scientist.
F68.10
June 21, 2019 at 3:42 am
“Is there some kind of training camp where they teach Vasudev’s followers to completely ignore all clear factual
errors he makes that are pointed out and somehow drag the discussion to hair-splitting language and pseudo-
philosophy?”
Not to my knowledge. I wouldn’t describe myself as a Vasudev follower, by the way. It’d be a hard sell on myself…
“And you want to talk about skeptics “spouting bullshit”?”
Yes. He also may be spouting bullshit. Haven’t listened to the guy a lot, I must say.
“If you think your stupid pendulum is detecting negative energy or poisons, talking about science is not for you,
forget about Bosons. Maybe being a meditation teacher doesn’t make you understand anything other than just
that.”
I just discovered the video where he claims mercury is not poison. Must say I had a good laugh. My opinion about
him is that, as far as I see it, he does seem, as a principle, to endorse science. From what I’ve seen, there are quite a
lot of nutcases in India who explicitly DO REJECT science. I’m just happy he claims and apparently strives not to be
one of them. Simply on that ground, I appreciate his public discourse. And I do not expect him to shake his beliefs
so easily, so I’m maybe a bit too lenient.
“Every footpath intellect wants to think he is an unrecognized philosopher and scientist.”
That’s not how I think about him. He’s a public “intellectual” like you have a ton in many countries around the world.
Such type of people tend to say many things that do not hold water. But if you want to take sides when it comes to
these type of people, it’s way too easy to exaggerate what they say, and extrapolate the whole business to
previously unknown heights. I’m fed up of this kind of demonization I see more and more everyday.
OK. He spouts more bullshit than what I’ve come across previously concerning the guy. Nonetheless, your article
still leaves a bad taste in my mouth and a queasy feeling: I do not like mocking people who have inaccurate views of
science. I oppose people who outright reject science or who politicize non-political scienti c issues. But make me
meet a at-farther, and I’ll be much more sympathetic with him than with the random theocrat who wants me to
believe in God so that he can impose his absolute morality on me.
I do not see Vasudev as a threat to rationality. I’m under the impression that, unlike others, he still can improve and
progress on the path towards rationality.
VJ
June 21, 2019 at 3:42 pm
@F68.10, an irrational leader of masses is de nitely a threat to rationality. He speaks so much about science and
mostly all the time arrogantly, carelessly inaccurate. You can see that if you listen to him more.
In his own strange way he is brutally oversimplifying the science and day by day making people believe that he is
right. Wouldn’t students think that a rudraksh can be used to produce endless energy by just hanging over
anything? There are parents who would teach these things to their kids under science course. We are already
su ering from many superstitious science teachers . What would be the result other than an incompetent arrogant
society?
Its a threat when such claims are made because who is going to believe him! ? obviously society. I strongly believe
that its still ok to spread your political views, your moral views but one should not be allowed to weaken the
scienti c temperament of coming generations.
NT
June 21, 2019 at 8:47 pm
F68.10
“That’s not how I think about him. He’s a public “intellectual” “.
How I think of him is as “the stupid person’s idea of the clever person” (Huxley). The only way to use the word
“intellectual” in the same sentence as Vasudev is like you did – with quotes.
“I do not like mocking people who have inaccurate views of science.”
Most of us have inaccurate views of science at some level. But the people who should get criticized are public
personalities who are smug and brazen about it while talking nonsense against it. I don’t feel he endorses science.
NT
June 22, 2019 at 2:21 am
Who is a public intellectual?
De nition – an intellectual, often a noted specialist in a particular eld, who has become well-known to the general
public for a willingness to comment on current a airs
A person should rst be recognized as a specialist, a leader in a particular eld, an intellectual eld.
Foreign example – Richard Dawkins is a public intellectual. Pierce Morgan isn’t.
F68.10
June 25, 2019 at 7:45 pm
@VJ: “an irrational leader of masses is de nitely a threat to rationality.”
Depends. I wouldn’t be so clear-cut about the concept.
“You can see that if you listen to him more.”
I’ll have to listen to him more. Aside from hilarious mercury video, I mostly see him with little scienti c competence,
saying generalities that I’m kind enough to let go o , and generally supporting the concept of science. I barely
expect much more of anyone… I’d be a huge pisser if I did. I’ll nevertheless have to double check whether the
mercury video is a one time incident or a recurrent behaviour.
“I strongly believe that it’s still ok to spread your political views, your moral views but one should not be allowed to
weaken the scienti c temperament of coming generations.”
I’m ne with this view and tend to agree. But I’m afraid that being too patronizing may backlash. And that’s one of
the fears I have with the article.
“I don’t feel he endorses science.”
Maybe I su er from some form of “white colonialist syndrome”. It happened to me more than once to promote the
concept of science to some African people with really little education. I feel it’s more important to get them to get
the concept of science right than it is to shove scienti c truths down their throats too fast. The rst can be done in a
very courteous and polite manner. The second cannot be rushed over… you’d lose the game. That’s why “endorsing
science” can have very di erent meanings.
“De nition – an intellectual, often a noted specialist in a particular eld, who has become well-known to the general
public for a willingness to comment on current a airs”
Simplistic: Artists can be intellectuals. Standup comedians can be intellectuals. And in my country there are so
many intellectuals who clearly do not even deserve to be called one that I feel the demarcation line is often blurred
very much in practice. I’d rather de ne a public intellectual as someone who has the power to shape ideas in a
society. An expert/specialist can or can not be a public intellectual, and a public intellectual can or can not be an
expert/specialist. Unfortunately…
NT
June 25, 2019 at 8:46 pm
F68.10
“I’ll nevertheless have to double check whether the mercury video is a one time incident or a recurrent behaviour.”
Read the long list of comments here. It is recurrent behavior. There are a lot more samples discussed. He basically
wants to market his paid courses as some cosmic awareness tool. Ironically, whenever he rambles about science,
he quickly proves the exact opposite.
Other samples – precognition, karmic healing, dowsing, reiki, afterlife, various kinds of supernatural visions etc etc.
There are so many more.
“Simplistic”
It isn’t. I gave you a copy paste de nition from a dictionary, not something I just made up. You just have your own
de nition. John Oliver may shape public opinion as a comedian. But he isn’t an intellectual. Vasudev is criticized
precisely because he is a terrible shaper of public opinion.
He isn’t an intellectual. He isn’t debating any intellectuals but makes sure he is seen on stage with some of them.
Aditya Bhargava
July 3, 2019 at 12:26 pm
godel’s incompleteness theorem is the death of logic and mathematics. Any system capable enough to have self
reference creates paradoxes, illogical systems and strange loops, and so does arithmetic when bombarded with the
problem in which a set includes all possible sets in existence.
So, all I can say is, science and mathematics are not the best way to comprehend the nature of reality. Quantum
mechanics has already reached a dead end. Nobody has been able to decode the mysteries of the double slit
experiment. Nobody will ever be able to identify the smallest particle in existence because reality, like any other
complex system, is a strange loop.
You cannot de ne a superset using a subset, similarly, you cannot comprehend the nature of reality by using
instruments that actually are a part of reality, and therefore the systems of observation and experimentation fail
miserably.
You have to raise the amount of consciousness to grasp the magnitude and nature of reality. The ancient yogis and
mystics understood this and devised tools to understand the true nature of the existence.
Sadhguru is yet another mystic who is propounding the ways of the yogis. Therefore, instead of giving fallacious
and strawman arguments, propose some concrete facts in your posts so they don’t look like a mad man’s enraged
rant.
Aditya Bhargava
July 3, 2019 at 12:30 pm
The universe is not the slave of the tiny human race to act according to its puny logic.
NT
July 3, 2019 at 6:31 pm
It is not just Jaggi Vasudev, Sri Sri’s Art of Living also promotes fake science.
https://www.ndtv.com/health/solar-eclipse-2019-dos-and-donts-heres-what-ayurveda-suggests-2062879
“Dr. Mitali Madhusmita and Dr. Neeraj Jaswal, senior Ayurvedic doctors at the Art of Living elaborate on the do’s
and don’ts to follow during the surya grahan or solar eclipse. Here’s what they have to say”
“During an eclipse, the wavelength and intensity of light radiations on the earth’s surface is altered. Especially, the
blue and ultraviolet radiations – which are known for their natural disinfecting properties – are not available in
su cient quantities during eclipse. This leads to uncontrolled growth of micro-organisms in food products during
eclipse and the food products are not suitable for consumption. Hence, Ayurveda advises that one should stop
eating at least two hours before an eclipse, so all the food can get digested. You can also practice meditation during
the eclipse.”
“Also, sun is the source of energy for all living beings and since the sun is hidden during the eclipse, our energy
levels go down and this can slow down the digestion process. Hence, according to Ayurveda one must stop eating 2
hours before an eclipse. Also, it is advisable to eat light and easy-to-digest foods before and after the eclipse.”
“There are multiple myths around the dos and don’ts for pregnant women during an eclipse. Ayurveda doesn’t
specify any particular precautions for pregnant women. However, staying indoors and meditating for good health
of the child is advisable as it has a relaxing e ect on the mind and body of the mother.”
Basically, all meditation groups dumb people down. In India, stupid people pass o as experts.
And people like Aditya Bhargava will try to distract from this fact by mentioning Quantum Physics and Godel. Your
stupid gurus and their groups are a pathetic failure in understanding eclipses, digestion and bacteria. Quantum
Mechanics and Godel are too far above your level.
NT
July 3, 2019 at 7:16 pm
Just in case someone is confused the quotes above explain science, let me make it clear — they don’t. These so
called doctors of Ayurveda at AOL are complete fools when it comes to understanding any science, whether is
physics, astronomy, microbiology or medicine.
This is fake or pseudo science. They are just using a few smart sounding science words to essentially say nonsense
and support same old foolish beliefs.
NT
July 7, 2019 at 5:10 am
I was wondering how Aditya Bhargava can be so foolish that he thinks Jaggi Vasudev is trying to advance beyond
Godel. I mean Godel was one of the greatest mathematicians that ever lived and Jaggi Vasudev is a complete fool
when it comes to understanding even basic maths. How can anyone be so stupid to compare the two?
Then it occurred to me that it is possible. This is the land of Rajinikanth with childish adulation for impossibly larger
than life heroes for their fantasies.
Fantasy Rajinikanth: Jumps his bike over a train.

Reality Rajinikanth: Probably can’t jump over a stool chair.
Fantasy Rajinikanth: Fights 20 people, all by himself, wins without a scratch.

Reality Rajinikanth: Most likely will loose a boxing match to the rst punch.
So it goes with Jaggi Vasudev
Fantasy Jaggi Vasudev: Contemplating all existence beyond Godel.

Reality Jaggi Vasudev: Does not understand basic school level Euclid.
Fantasy Jaggi Vasudev: Shares stage with Michio Kaku.

Reality Jaggi Vasudev: Thinks Eclipse poisons food.
Fantasy Jaggi Vasudev: Says he can feel empty space between atoms
Reality Jaggi Vasudev: The only empty space he is feeling is really the empty space in his head because he sucked at
his classes.
Fantasy Jaggi Vasudev: Discusses science experiments.

Reality Jaggi Vasudev: Too stupid to understand his “experiment” with rudraksha on string is not how one does
experiments.
Fantasy Jaggi Vasudev: Says he can just just perceive reality, so has cosmic awareness.
Reality Jaggi Vasudev: If cosmic awareness is telling him dowsing is real and mercury is not a poison, that is proof
that he has no awareness, forget cosmic whatnot.
Two stage performers for two generations. Vasudev is Rajinikanth of gurugiri. He isn’t a guru, he just plays one on
stage. And then he drags the character to cheesy extremes like Rajinikanth does.
I guess people either never grow up or the kids of Rajinikanth want a new Rajinikanth to fall at the feet of. There is
even less logic or intelligence in Vasudev’s stage talks than there is physics in Rajinikanth’s action scenes and both
their audience care about neither and think that lack as greatness, not silliness. At least the former was up front
that he was an entertainer. The later probably believes his character is real. That is cheap entertainment vs.
insanity. Enjoy Jaggikanth fans.
jay
July 10, 2019 at 10:15 pm
Veda says earth is 4.5 billion year old and science proved it wrong and right answer is 4 billion year old. veda has
0.5 billion error and god cannot have such a big error
VS
July 11, 2019 at 4:45 pm
jay, thanks man, these science types don’t understand that universe really came from brahma who came from a
lotus which grew out of vishnu’s navel while he was sleeping. Vedas were very clear about it. Enjoy your high IQ
hindu rastra under baba ramdev that you were posting in another board. What is your college major in? You are so
smart.
Aditya Bhargava
July 16, 2019 at 10:58 am
NT, when you run out of arguments, you begin with the bombarding of personal attacks. Very rudimentary stu
there. I expected a mature counter argument. Disappointing.
NT
July 18, 2019 at 5:36 am
Aditya Bhargava, so according to you, Godel is death of math and logic, quantum mechanics is death of physics. But
surprise, surprise, the loon who claims to the best meditator says mercury is not a poison, eclipse poisons food and
rudhaksha is magic isn’t the death of meditation. According to you his yoginess makes him more brilliant than
Godel. Great logic man. So he is a mystic and yogi (only because he says so). So he can talk retarded. Right? Logic
and facts don’t apply.
Science, math or logic says just once that something can’t be completely resolved and every footpath intellect like
you jumps in and says listen to our lunatic ideas now, we are beyond everything. Show glaring stupidity of your
lunatic ideas and you ignore all the basic errors pointed.
A footpath intellect is someone who reads like half a para of something in something like a book he found on a
footpath, suddenly thinks he is a genius because he understands a questionable summary and goes to debate
science and philosophy. Read the Dinesh Srivastava article I posted. It is exactly about people like you and
Jaggikanth.
You are all facebook and whatsapp intellects, nothing more. You don’t understand the level of your stupidity. You
think mentioning Godel and quantum physics makes you sound smart. I have a nephew in primary school who
knows more about an eclipse than Jaggikanth, lord of stupid gurugiri.
Amit
July 20, 2019 at 7:10 am
Those who want to understand gurus and spirituality should watch 2 documentaries.
Kumare (2011) by Vikram Gandhi is an interesting social experiment.
Wild Wild Country (2018) is a 6 part Net ix documentary series on Osho Rajineesh and his group.
NT
July 20, 2019 at 11:31 pm
This is a list of stupid science of JV.
https://scroll.in/article/927625/opinion-the-disturbing-irrationalism-of-jaggi-vasudev
The brainless Jaggikanth fanatics who have their head in sand never acknowledge any facts and believe that their
fool has “cosmic awareness”.
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July 23, 2019 at 5:43 pm
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VJ
@Aditya Bhargava, I am not a judge but just want to say that NT hasn’t been personal.
@ NT, Jaggi Vasudev is also an entertainer. Like Rajanikant pleases people, so does Jaggi. Only people entertained
by Jaggi take that with hypocrisy, for they think they are taking it seriously. People who do not understand science
much and are only google scientist and ocationally wiki worms are pleased to feel that they have by-passed the
quantum mechanics, and they feel superior.
Aditya, I am not commenting this on you [alone], I myself have gone through all this. I suddenly realized that I am
biasedly defending few men including JV and Rajneesh.
Girish
August 20, 2019 at 2:08 am
tARKIKA Your article clearly show you haven’t understood a word what sadhguru is trying to say . he is trying to say
things that are not perceivable through ve senses .he is trying to tell things which you will experience and know in
real only when you go beyond your ve senses. you have a completely wrong approach trying to dissect everything
using a knife in every work using a knife to stitch is no good,it will just create a whole mess no good for you. atleast
don’t try to mislead others when you have completely misunderstood sadhguru thoughts.
Jay123
August 26, 2019 at 9:44 am
@Girish
What is the experience beyond ve senses.Does it discloses the mystery of Universe .
NT
VJ, I agree with you.
I want to apologize. Jaggi Vasudev is not the lord of stupid gurugiri, like I said. That title belongs to Nityananda, the
other Tamil fake baba. Jaggi Vasudev is a total n00b compared to Nityananda. The followers of Nityananda satsang
are much more stupid than Jaggi Vasudev’s disciples. Jaggu has to work much harder to make his followers more
dumb to match Nityananda followers. He must make them meditate more.
Jaggi Vasudev thinks eclipse poisons food inside you and Nityananda thinks the sun personally waits for him to
accommodate his schedule.
Jaggi Vasudev tells people that by following him blindly one can get super powers like healing and future seeing.
Nityananda tells you that there are actually 200 super powers and he already gifted 60 of them to many people.
Jaggu thinks Godel is not good enough and he can do better. Nityananda thinks Einstein is not good enough and he
knows better about his equation. Jaggu thinks he can feel empty space. Nityananda tells you he can visit other
planets, is actually an alien. Jaggu says he magically knows a lot about Shiva. Nityananda says he is literally an alien
from Kailash and underworld after that and is now on earth to help us. He only planned to be here on earth for 120
years, but is now considering to be here for 200 years, not yet decided though.
Also, moon landing is fake. The drum roll obviously proves it. Nityananda and Jaggu just read some dumb web sites
and vomit that for their empty headed disciples.
https://www.news18.com/news/buzz/controversial-godman-tries-to-explain-how-albert-einstein-got-his-science-
wrong-fails-1880547.html
Meditation maybe means turning o thinking for 20 min, not turning it o altogether. But that is what seems to
happen to people who follow these meditation monkeys and meditate too much.
NT
Sun has to obey Nityananda’s schedule and commands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42W-A3Jw23o
Google proves it.
NT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYUTZwdUuNc
This is about Art of Living (Sri Sri). But it applies to Nityananda and Jaggu also.
The main trick seems to be in getting unhappy people to hyperventilate while listening to your voice in a soothing
tone. Then logic dies and they brainlessly believe anything said by the person during the hyperventilation process.
Once logic is dead, you can then tell them that sun waits for you, you are a divine avatar, you have magic vision into
past and future, you can heal with your power etc – all fake gurus do that. Don’t worry. No one around is smart
enough or logical enough to ask for proof, but if someone is, just give them some label and get rid of them, they will
be outnumbered, so it will be easy.
Then also tell people that their training is not complete and they have to keep paying money for longer
hyperventilation exercises, which like a drug, feel good, but kill logical thinking in the brain. Then just tell them that
logic is overrated anyway and they will believe it because they had some weird sensations while hyperventilating.
Just tell them that, that weird feeling is karma cleaning or something like that. Tell them what weird things they feel
during hyperventilation are real but what the rest of us feel is not. It plays well into maya beliefs.
Also tell them they are special because they are hyperventilating with your voice. Obviously, no one outside will
acknowledges that. So tell them they are undercover yogis and they are important for world peace. That explains
everything for them since there is no logic now. Everyone needs to feel special. So this provides that validation they
can’t get in the real world.
This indoctrination template seems to work for all these gurus.
VJ
@NT true but you are very funny!
Jay123
@NT thanks for uploading videos .These Godman making fool of everyone
Ashok
You are writing about what is Trigonometry but you are not aware of Mathematics. But let me tell why I am
answering this. Like most of us even I too got curious or say BORED, what is life all about. There must be something
more. No matter how happy you are, how successful you are, how good you are, you always still yearn for
something more. It is just matter of time. For eg: Even if I make you king of earth, after a point you will start to feel
something is lacking.
So you will not understand or experience mysticism or feel these gurus are fake, (yes 99% gurus are fake today) if
you are not having rst hand experience of life energies, Consecration, etc. As I said if you know what is
mathematics then it’s easy to understand Trigonometry. So if you are aware or experience energies around you
then only you can understand the answer. For this you will need some receptivity or meet a good genuine guru
who can make you realize about energies.
So you will not understand the answer if you are not having rst hand experience of life energies, Consecration, etc.
As I said if you know what is mathematics then it’s easy to understand Trigonometry. So if you are aware or
experience energies around you then only you can understand the answer. For this you will need some receptivity
or meet a good genuine guru who can make you realize about energies.
Coming to Sadhguru, there is nothing to hide about him. He has his fair share of critics and is a well known Spiritual
Guru or Mystic is what I prefer to call.
Now when you say Spiritual Guru he do does not fall in the bracket like the usual do good, be good gurus or just
preach, does yoga, give gyan, or o er solace. He knows how to handle the very life energies that is source of all
creation.
This is where I say DON’T BELIEVE THE ANSWERS I SAY, BUT FIND OUT IF WHAT I M SAYING IS TRUTH.
Here’s few OTHERS who have Transcended human Body, Mind, Consciousness, Emotions, Desires, Sins and even
worshipping God himself. Trailanga, Vivekananda, Ramana Maharishi. These people where able to die at will
because they knew how to handle their life energies. Details may be exaggerated but its not impossible. Dig deep,
atleast you will know they left body or died at free will. FACT, they left their body@ will. Even Gandhi– fasted for
21days. So you can call not even as spirituality.
So Sadhguru is truly a MYSTIC & read on for proofs. It is hard to realize if there are people who have TRANSCENDED
ve senses in some way or other.
Read their #Mahasamadhi Stories. #Vivekananda’s & especially #RamanaMaharishi leaving human body is well
documented. Even Jesus reserruction. So if you have no death i.e leave your body @ will, Time ceases to exist for
you. In short you are not bound by limitations that ordinary people face. Hope you got the point. It’s not escaping
from life. You can reach such a position only if know the nature of life completely. Else you might die at will but only
to be reborn as you tried to escape life. In fact, you won’t be able to rise beyond life, death and rebirth and cycle
keeps repeating. But this is what these people did, TRANSCENDED being human.
Why can’t a human quit his body consciously, tell me. Let’s not goto Yoga or Jaggi or which method works. This is
not Believing. This is Science.
Prove this wrong??? E=MC2. So anything in universe can be converted to anything right. So humans are also form of
Energy in Universe. What i meant by “lets not goto” means rst hope you agree E=MC2. Meaning anything in
universe can be converted to anything. So you can convert anything to anything. Life to death, death to life etc. Ask
any scientist. If you agree E=MC2 then we can GOTO to debate can person quit his body, Jesus, God yoga, isha, jaggi
etc. Who is fake?
Fact: Humans are beyond physical world. Not just survive and die or just enjoy life. Only as a human you can know
the highest possibilities of life. It doesnt matter what the nal destination is, if its Hell, Heaven, Meditation, God or
something new in future. Don’t worry you will miss out heaven or goto hell. No, 96% universe is NON-MATERIAL or
nothing. 4% is physical like stars, galaxy, planets etc. In this humans race born from rst man till date are just not
even 0.1% of the cosmos. So don’t worry. Point is Universe is itself a living cosmos and too big to just end with
earth, heaven and hell. Don’t you still get it. Universe is simply too big. If Sun, moon moves even a centimeter whole
life on earth will perish. Everything is connected. Sun, grass, blackholes, animals, rocks, oceans etc. It is just that we
stupid humans feel are superior. All are equal in universe be it a drop of water to the mighty stars. Living or Non
Living.
Just destroy the ozone layer and the whole game will change. Lot of other species will rule earth. E=MC2. Everything
in Universe is one and same. There is no special status to humans. So now you see where heaven stands.
Ramana Maharishi Mahasamadhi – death
On April 14, 1950 it was apparent that his physical end was near. In the evening, as the devotees sat on the
verandah outside the room which had been specially built for Bhagavan’s convenience during his illness, they
spontaneously began singing “Arunachala Siva” (The Marital Garland of Letters). On hearing it Ramana’s eyes
opened and shone. He gave a brief smile of indescribable tenderness. From the outer corners of his eyes tears of
bliss rolled down. One more deep breath and no more.
At that very moment 8:47 p.m. what appeared to be an enormous star trailed slowly across the sky passing to the
north-east towards the peak of Arunachala. Many saw this luminous body in the sky, even as far away as Bombay
and struck by its peculiar appearance and behaviour, they ascribed this phenomenon to the passing of their
Master.
Vivekananda Mahasamadhi – death
One day when Narendra was on the ground oor, meditating, the Master was lying awake in his bed upstairs. In the
depths of his meditation Narendra felt as though a lamp were burning at the back of his head. Suddenly he lost
consciousness. It was the yearned-for, all-e acing experience of nirvikalpa samadhi, when the embodied soul
realizes its unity with the Absolute. After a very long time he regained partial consciousness but was unable to nd
his body. He could see only his head. “Where is my body?” he cried. The elder Gopal entered the room and said,
“Why, it is here, Naren!” But Narendra could not nd it. Gopal, frightened, ran upstairs to the Master. Sri
Ramakrishna only said: “Let him stay that way for a time. He has worried me long enough.” So he had already know
knew to leave the body.
But unfortunately today people have spread news that he died becoz he was celibate and sperm became poison in
his body. Bull..Google about sperm, it is the nest, nal byproduct of the food we eat. First food we eat becomes,
blood, muscle, nourishes organs, hair, bone marrow, and like this only purest food is processed to become sperm.
As it contains DNA for next generation. Google properly. So sperm not ejaculated nourishes the body even more.
Still don’t believe. See Sivanada’s book on Practice of Brahmacharya. Yes I know modern science will say crap. I am
saying just google. Find the truth.
On 4 July 1902 (the day of his death) Vivekananda awoke early, went to the monastery at Belur Math and meditated
for three hours. He taught Shukla-Yajur-Veda, Sanskrit grammar and the philosophy of yoga to pupils,later
discussing with colleagues a planned Vedic college in the Ramakrishna Math. At 7:00 p.m. Vivekananda went to his
room, asking not to be disturbed; he died at 9:20 p.m. while meditating. According to his disciples, Vivekananda
attained mahasamādhi; the rupture of a blood vessel in his brain was reported as a possible cause of death. His
disciples believed that the rupture was due to his brahmarandhra (an opening in the crown of his head) being
pierced when he attained mahasamādhi. Vivekananda ful lled his prophecy that he would not live forty years.He
was cremated on a sandalwood funeral pyre on the bank of the Ganga in Belur, opposite where Ramakrishna was
cremated sixteen years earlier.
NERUR SADASIV BRAHMENDRA SWAMI BIOGRAPHY MIRACLES AND SAMADHI
He is said to have performed many miracles whilst alive, some of the most prominent are provided below.
1) On the river banks of Cauvery in Mahadhanapuram, he was asked by some children to be taken to Madurai,
more than 100 miles away, for an annual festival. The saint asked them to close their eyes, and a few seconds later
they reopened their eyes and found they were in Madurai.
2) While relaxing near a heap of grains, he began meditating. The farmer who owned the land mistook Sadasiva for
a thief, and confronted him. The farmer raised his stick to hit the saint, but became a statue. He remained in this
state until the morning, when Sadasiva nished meditating and smiled at the farmer. The farmer was restored to
his normal state, and asked the saint for forgiveness.
3) At another time, while meditating on the banks of the Cauvery river, he was carried away by a sudden ood.
Weeks later, when some villagers were digging near a mound of earth, their shovels struck his body. He woke up
and walked away.
4)Long after all these happened when almost people had forgotten the memories of his wandering in their lands,
once the naked sannyasi was seen walking right through a Muslim harem of a Nawab. As a brahma-jnani who sees
nothing but brahman everywhere, he would not distinguish between the di erent human gures which cross his
path nor would he be distracted by the sights or noises that his environment may present to him. It was in this
state of trance that he was walking along. He, the naked sannyasi, walked straight into the harem, entering it at one
end and walking out at the other all the while walking through a maze of inmates of the Nawab’s harem. The news
reached the nawab, he had his men chase him, they cut o both his hands as he was walking along, the hands fell
o and still he was walking along silently as if nothing had happened. The Nawab got scared, picked up the hands
that had been severed, ran to the Sage and o ered them in total remorse. The sage stopped his walking, the
severed hands were restored to their place, the hands became normal and the sage walked away! There was no
conversation.
5) In 1732, While SadaShiva Brahmendra was roaming near Pudukottai forests some soldiers saw him & mistakenly
asked him to carry some sticks on his head. SadaShiva Brahmendra carried happily & when he kept that sticks in
kitchen ground, it burnt. Then those soldiers understood that he was an great Saint.
6) There was a uneducated & born dumb man who was a devotee of SadaShiva Brahmendra. He served the Guru
immensely. One day, SadaShiva Brahmendra kept their hand on his head & prayed to Lord to give him speech and
knowledge. By the grace of SadaShiva Brahmendra that dumb man became educated & he started to talk. He
started giving speeches & he was famous as “Akasha Purana Ramalinga Shastry”. Up to this 20th century,
Ramalinga Shastry’s relatives were staying in Nerur. This incident is also mentioned in the Sri SadaShivendra Sthava
7) His most recent miracle(2004) is about the temple of Ageeswarar near Tiruvallur. You can read more about it in
the below
Shree Agneeswarar Temple at Neyveli (near Thiruvallur)
Mahasamadhi
Later he left Tiruvisanallur and reached Nerur, the surroundings of which were conducive and ideal for stay and
penance with the river owing southwards. A place where river ows southwards, is considered equal to Kashi (
Banaras).
Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra attained Maha Samaadhi on the Vaisakha Sukla Dasami with Makha star in the year 1755
A.D. Before his Samadhi,he mentioned that a Bilva tree would come over his Samadhi. He also mentioned that after
10 days, someone would bring a Shiva Linga and it has to be installed at a particular distance from his samadhi.
Needless to say, it happened the same way.
He is said to have attained samadhi at 3 places:
Nerur(TamilNadu)
Manamadurai about 60 km from Madurai.
Karachi, now in pakistan.
Paramahansa Yogananda Mahasamadhi – Death
In the days leading up to his death, Yogananda began hinting that it was time for him to leave the world.
On 7 March 1952, he attended a dinner for the visiting Indian Ambassador to the US, Binay Ranjan Sen, and his wife
at the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles. At the conclusion of the banquet, Yogananda spoke of India and America, their
contributions to world peace and human progress, and their future cooperation, expressing his hope for a “United
World” that would combine the best qualities of “e cient America” and “spiritual India.” According to an eyewitness
– Daya Mata, a direct disciple of Yogananda, who was head of the Self-Realization Fellowship from 1955–2010— as
Yogananda ended his speech, he read from his poem My India, concluding with the words “Where Ganges, woods,
Himalayan caves, and men dream God—I am hallowed; my body touched that sod.” “As he uttered these words, he
lifted his eyes to the Kutastha center (the Ajna Chakra), and his body slumped to the oor.” Followers say that he
entered mahasamadhi. The o cial cause of death was heart failure.
His funeral service, with hundreds attending, was held at the SRF headquarters atop Mt. Washington in Los
Angeles. Rajarsi Janakananda, the new president of the Self-Realization Fellowship, “performed a sacred ritual
releasing the body to God.” Yogananda’s remains are interred at the Forest Lawn Memorial Park in the Great
Mausoleum (normally closed o to visitors but Yogananda’s tomb is accessible) in Glendale, California.
Ramakrishna Mahasamadhi – death
Sri Ramakrishna was sinking day by day. His diet was reduced to a minimum and he found it almost impossible to
swallow. He whispered to M.: “I am bearing all this cheerfully, for otherwise you would be weeping. If you all say
that it is better that the body should go rather than su er this torture, I am willing.” The next morning he said to his
depressed disciples seated near the bed: “Do you know what I see? I see that God alone has become everything.
Men and animals are only frameworks covered with skin, and it is He who is moving through their heads and limbs.
I see that it is God Himself who has become the block, the executioner, and the victim for the sacri ce.’ He fainted
with emotion. Regaining partial consciousness, he said: “Now I have no pain.
He had cancer but no pain.
MAHASAMADHI
Sunday, August 15, 1886. The Master’s pulse became irregular. The devotees stood by the bedside. Toward dusk Sri
Ramakrishna had di culty in breathing. A short time afterwards he complained of hunger. A little liquid food was
put into his mouth; some of it he swallowed, and the rest ran over his chin. Two attendants began to fan him. All at
once he went into samadhi of a rather unusual type. The body became sti . Sashi burst into tears. But after
midnight the Master revived. He was now very hungry and helped himself to a bowl of porridge. He said he was
strong again. He sat up against ve or six pillows, which were supported by the body of Sashi, who was fanning
him. Narendra took his feet on his lap and began to rub them. Again and again the Master repeated to him, “Take
care of these boys.” Then he asked to lie down. Three times in ringing tone’s he cried the name of Kali, his life’s
Beloved, and lay back. At two minutes past one there was a low sound in his throat and he fell a little to one side. A
thrill passed over his body. His hair stood on end. His eyes became xed on the tip of his nose. His face was lighted
with a smile. The nal ecstasy began. It was mahasamadhi, total absorption, from which his mind never returned.
Narendra, unable to bear it, ran downstairs.
Nirmalanda Mahasamadhi – death 1996
He decided to shed his body in the month of January in ’96, and announced that he would attain Mahasamadhi. But
there was a big ruckus all around. The rationalist society of Karnataka led a case against him saying that this man
is going to commit suicide, so they put two constables in the ashram.
When Sadhguru went there, he hugged him and cried, “I have not even plucked a ower from a tree. Even for my
pooja I don’t pluck a ower, and they have put police in my ashram.” Just the insult of that hurt him so much. Not
once did he even pluck a fruit. He didn’t want to hurt the trees. Only if they fell down he ate them. Otherwise he
wouldn’t touch them. Sadhguru told him, “Don’t worry. What are the police going to do to you?” When the time to
leave came for him, he sat outside on a small deck. About forty people were sitting in his ashram including the two
constables. He sat in front of them and just left his body.
Exact Details may be exaggerated but its not impossible. FACT, these people left their body@ will. Get the essence
ignore the meaning what you get.
In fact Snakes know when they Die.
So like this even humans can consciously leave their BODY at will.
What does this Prove? It’s up to you.
See about Sadhguru’s previous life births. He has taken 3 life times of Sadhana just to be where he is today. Read
about his previous births.
Lifetimes Three – Bilva
Shivayogi
Sadhguru Shri Brahma
Goto the village of Sadhguru Sribrahma. Find the truth. It’s easy to sit at computer and give criticisms about things.
So just to nd if it’s true, sometimes you have to do the work.
Not only Sadhguru, google about rebirth. For few days if you research, don’t assume and search. Just nd what is
the truth. You will come to know that you can’t 100% DENY REBIRTH PROOF.
Still not convinced meet any authentic, reputed, genuine VEDIC ASTROLOGER. He will make predictions about you
that Will blow your mind. Yes, meet 5–10 of them. You will know though some are fake, wrong predictions some will
give but you will also get 100% predictions.
This is just prove to you that all universe is energy. What you are seeing is the physical dimension of universe. Say
you can’t deny entire UNIVERSE has Atoms, including blackholes, comets, animals, water, plastic, and you. And if
you access that dimension, you will be 100% happy irrespective of the worse that happens to you.
Still don’t believe. Meet any Reiki Guru, proper authentic yoga guru, (not tness yoga guru), Kundalini guru, or other
genuine Spiritual or mystics like Sadhguru. They will make you reverberate from the spine.
Forget Spiritual gurus, goto any temple like Tirupati, Abhayahastha Venkateshwara temple, Ujjain Mahakal. I just
know temples. There are Islamic Prophet Dargahs, and Christian Saints and Mother’s places as well. Try to go
immediately after bath, especially cold shower. And see if you feel the reverbation, the energy around that place.
Now you might feel it or may be Not. So how do I prove you. Trust me out of 100 atleast 10 people will feel. Take
with you 100 people who do not believe all this stu . Trust me. You will know what I mean. Nothing in the world is
100%. It’ like will ight take o Everytime, no. But we can know the reason. Same with people who do not feel the
energies. It’s just that you are not willing to nd the reason why YOU CANT FEEL THE ENERGIES. I know many
ordinary people in my society who can feel these ENERGIES. We live in city, go through daily life, enjoy the comforts
as well yet we also know that there are things beyond all this.
As for Dhynalinga, forget Isha, any temple, idol consecrated as per certain Temple ARCHITECTURE, (eg: Agama
Shastra, there are many ways to build temple) has powers.
You just need receptivity to feel it.

I am an young guy, married, goto work, party, ght, argue, watch movies, eat out but i have been also able feel,
physically feel the reverberations when i goto temples. Not all temples, never been to Dhyanalinga till date. But i
feel it in Tirupati, Ujjain Mahakal, Abhaya Hasta Venkateswara temple, in fact i feel the same vibrations in also few
small temples near my home. These temples not even one thing is done as per rituals but i can clearly feel the
vibrations.
As a proof if i am hallucinating, i asked my wife after few years. She too con rms she can but thought it would be
foolish to discuss.
She too works in a IT rm and is like any modern women and very clear and pragmatic about current a airs in the
world and reality.
Few of my neighbhours, an old lady who is uneducated and never married, my neighbour aunty and uncle, and a
man of 40 years and his father too acknowledge what i say, when i discussed it with them.
They too can feel energies present in a temple. Infact temple i speak is in a slum area, next to a storm water
drainage, highly populated by Christians.
No special seeking or sadhana done by us. The neighbors i speak of are just any normal city people. These people
have no exposure or comfort or use net, access to information like me. They are just like ordinary people working
in govt, doing own business living lives.
Spirituality exists, it can be felt but we need to be receptive. For me this receptivity happened accidentally. I was just
a usual happy go normal guy.
So may be dhyanalinga could be fake but deities, lingas, idols, temples or certain PLACES have POWERS. I was never
a seeker consciously, but today i can sense it, every time i am in presence of certain energy bodies, my spine
shakes, body vibrates, the ecstasy is out of world. It sounds as if i am on drugs or mindwashed. But no, you are on
other side of bridge, i am on this side of bridge.
Isha has acknowledged about Auroville building the Dhyanalinga.
Proof from Isha website.
https://www.ishafoundation.org/news/features/2015/ArchitectureforDivinity-1-May-2015.pdf
See consultants at end of pdf le. Yes, you can say the proof is being not publicized in a big way and you can prove
its intentional by Isha.
But here Proof from Auroville site. If Isha wanted to hide it, they could have taken care of this part as well.
http://www.earth-auroville.com/dhyanalinga_dome_en.php
My only wish, now that you have come so far in spiritual journey, be it Sadhguru or anyone else or just with
yourself, go BEYOND the 5 senses. There is SOMETHING that EXISTS & its ETERNAL TRUTH.
Rest is all just a child’s play, a small speck in the cosmos, be it you, your family, your own ABSOLUTE TRUTH about
SPIRITUALITY.
My only wish you reach that ULTIMATE in SPIRITUALITY.
Remember you need to have a certain RECEPTIVITY to realize these ENERGIES.
Now don’t think it’s religious. Ancient Indians had 33 million Deities or Idols or Tantras (machines or Tools) when
the population was around 33 million. Each ancient Indian knew that if we energize a non living object like is stone
which is stable, does not need food, water, medicine or falls sick, we can use that energies from the idol or deity to
be happy and live life to fullest.
See today humans are most dominant and comfortable species on earth because of our ability to use Tools. So
ancient Indians knew we could use ENERGY TOOLS or MACHINES for our well being. Remember as i said E=MC2.
Anything in Universe can be converted to anything. That means for health create one Deity-Yantra- temple. And o
course for those who didn’t want anything, temples were places to just go sit for Spiritual purposes or ultimate
realization, again create one deity-temple-Yantra etc.
It only after invasions people felt embarrassed, later some people started to make it as rituals. Otherwise ancient(I
mean really ancient like during indus valley civilization times) every indian created a energy form to live his life
happily even if WORSE happened to him or around him.
Tell me what do you want. You want everything in life and be sad/ say atleast discontent or be “100%. Happy” 24/7,
365 days inspite of all the WORSE problems of life.
Still not convinced show me any Veda or Hindu scripts where religion or God word is mentioned. It’s only
mentioned as Hindu Dharma and Bhagwan – meaning blessed being. Dharma does not mean religion. Google
properly to see meaning dharma. Hindu means land between Hi-Himalayas and Indu- Hindu Maha Sagara or Indian
Ocean. It’s like saying African, Asian. It’s a geographical identity.
As I said it became religious over centuries.
So point is Sadhguru like other Spiritual gurus is saying in the way he has experienced if you can access that
dimension beyond the 5 senses, which is your true nature. It’s like can you show life soul or life inside you…No but
it exists, you will have no more su ering. Only Bliss.
Need I say Sadhguru can leave his body at will. If everything goes well, he will show that to the world. But I already
shared with you many who done this already. Also see Swami Rama lingam. Even British have documented his
mahasamadhi. He made is body into light and disappeared. Google it.
Still don’t believe goto Isha, visit Dhyanalinga or Linga Bhairavi temple. Or Meet people there and ask them if all
these are true. Try to nd if what I am saying is true. Don’t assume already this is mumbo jumbo.
Yes, I also know about Sadhguru married a person who was already someone’s wife, his rumoured relationship
with Bharti Akka, him being lavish, his daughter being lavish and leading non-spiritual life, accusations of mind
wash to kids by their parents, land grab, forest exploitation, high fees, premium kinda Spirituality, police complaint
on him by his father in law, his wife Vijji, mahasamadhi, quick funeral, elephant corridor land grab, business
ventures of Isha, their costly products etc.
I have made the e ort to nd what is the matter, no assuming. Then I have come to conclusion. So you nd the
truth in such a way that if someone asks you to prove you should be able to prove.
For instance I can prove that these accusations are not proven and false.
Btw I m as educated as they come, have a good family and I am very much into today’s modern world and
entertainment. So it’s not that I am brainwashed etc. I just was curious to nd what is this all about. It’s not only
consecrating or energizing idols, yoga, mantra chanting (sound is the last barrier of physical dimension, so chanting
mantra in a proper manner with RIGHT MINDSET creates a positive energy), wearing gemstones/precious metals
(these are purest of matter found on earth. Hope you know Gold, Silver is good for health in minute quantities,
similarly wearing them creates positive energy over a period of time) etc.
Still don’t believe, there is a homa/Havana to produce rain. Yes in Bangalore there is a festival called Kargha, and
trust me it always rains atleast surely drizzles and surely weather becomes overcast in the peak of summer for few
days. Just google it. There is science behind it. See or Google how homa,havan works. You will know. Like these
there are many homas. Only thing is we don’t nd reason when it doesn’t work. We think it’s waste. As I said google
how homa works, you will know and then try for few times at your place. But it should be done properly and right
intention.
I repeat I am aware accusations on Sadhguru. I know about he is second husband to his wife Viji, alleged Sadhguru
wife death, his sour relationship with daughter, his wealth accumulation, his osho in uence, his shallow spirituality
knowledge in many aspects, his alleged proximity with Bharti, his speedy funeral of his wife and police complaint by
his own father in law, his father hates him, elephant land grab, forest land grab, Political connections, luxurious
lifestyle, mind washing innocents, SSY Yoga connection, Rishi Prabhakar, his old gurus etc. I say dig deep, nd truth.
If someone asks you, in black and white you have to show this person is fake. Not make good arguments…
NT
Thanks VJ, Jay123
Ashok, I have friends just like you. Nice people, but completely foolish about everything beyond everyday matters
and work. Just like you heard everything about Jaggu before, I heard all this pseudoscience crap before as well.
E=MC2 is true means you can debate you can quit your body? Gold and silver will create positive energy around
you? Wearing gemstones also does? Mantras create positive energy? Temples have energy powers and vibrations?
Go read the Temple Pseudoscience article on this web site.
I have heard all this crap before just like you heard all allegations about Jaggu. Jaggi has proofs? I have seen his
proofs. No one intelligent thinks anything he says are proofs.
All my friends read crap from whatsapp and parrot them. When I tell my ends this is all crap and give them articles
explaining how these things are crap, they have no answers, but just escape saying I have not reached there. This is
especially true of my friends with good salary IT jobs. They believe in most crap.
What you are feeling are not energies. If one person says he feels energy, everyone around will also say yes, yes we
feel it too. Nobody wants to be left out. Same as Rudraksha to nd if water is good or bad by detecting its energy.
Anyone can scienti cally prove that Jaggu is talking crap when he says rudraksha is detecting energy from water.
Ideomotor e ect has already been discussed by others in this page.
You need to rst understand how pseudoscience crap works. Then you can give me a speech about me trying to
get trigonometry without knowing mathematics.
Start with Temple Pseudoscience and Ideomotor e ect.
NT
Ashok,
Watch this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRxKnjn704Y
Watch the whole documentary – Enemies of Reason.
Learn about Dowsing, why it is pseudoscience. Like you said – “YOU CANT FEEL THE ENERGIES”. Yes, I can’t. What
you don’t realize is, you and Jaggu can’t either. The di erence is I know I can’t while you are deluded that you can.
I think you are sincere in your false belief that you can. I am not sure if Jaggu is. People all over the world foolishly
think they can feel energies and vibrations. But whenever you call scientists like they did in the show, and they take
the usual precautions, the result is always – mean chance expectation rate. Do you understand what that means?
If you go to temple and say you feel vibrations, slowly, in a few weeks, everyone will start agreeing with you,
because we all like to believe crap. It feels good. We can pretend we are spiritually superior to others. But Truth is
truth. If you want bitter Truth rather than smooth crap, it is important to test carefully and think.
My question to you is do you have the courage to admit that you were fooled because you did not know about
dowsing, ideomotor e ect etc, which I understand, or do you prefer delusion to Truth?
I will take your silence to mean you prefer delusion. I will also understand that, because you are just like the
dowsers in the clip.
But if you ask, I can nd you clips that explain to you how silly temple, gem and gold pseudoscience. The question is
if you want to learn or don’t. Most of my friends don’t. They prefer blind belief.
Ashok
I am glad we are atleast on discussing terms. Looks like we are on dead lock and in these situations it is best we
respect each other and agree to disagree.
I have submitted enough proofs and the people I said have nothing to gain and are least bothered about being left
out from the crowd or miss being in the herd mentality. I and the people I spoke about are equally practical about
life and are least bothered about falling into herd mentality.
All I am saying is with certain RECEPTIVITY you can feel the reverbation or energies. As I said google about
CONSECRATION or meet good genuine reiki guru, or authentic yoga guru or a siddha who has attained mastery
over his life energies. They will shake you from spine without even touching you. Try it. Spend one 30 days nd if its
true, dont assume it’s already pseudo science.
I am saying don’t believe just nd out if it’s true, dig deep.
Yes if I a look at it from a point of view that it’s already pseudo science, then I will look to prove it false or I will nd
only what I am looking at.
I am saying just try to nd out what if I am saying like energies, mahasamadhi is true or fake, that’s it.
There are mantras, which by just uttering you can quit your body. Again dig deep nd the truth.
Still if we don’t agree, let’s agree to disagree.

All those folks whom I have shared have quit their body at will.
CONSECRATION – Learn about it.
As for Trigonometry or mathematics I din’t mean to demean anyone.
All I am saying the subject we are discussing requires a bit of rst hand experience either directly or from a person
who has mastery over his life energies.
I repeat just nd out WHAT IS TRUTH ABOUT CONSECRATION, go meet some people in charge of ancient temples,
ask them. How it works. You will know. As for MAHASAMADHI, REBIRTH? I am sure 100% you can’t deny these. Just
Google and nd if it’s true, don’t x already it mind wash. Just spend 30 days, nd if its true or false.
Dig deep nd if it’s true or fake. Not already xed it’s pseudo science. Then you will know.
Nothing just because of critics view like you, i dug deep and found the ultimate.
If it wasn’t for you and many other posts, i wouldn’t be where i am today. I dug deep, and found the ultimate.
Still if we are not agreeing I respect your views, atleast can I expect the same from you. Why people who don’t
agree on spirituality or energies tag it as pseudo science, herd mentality etc. I respect your views on why you don’t
agree on these things but mostly rst thing folks tag it as pseudo science if they don’t agree on things. I repeat
mathematics, Trigonometry was not demean anyone. It was just to say that to experience these things you have to
have RECEPTIVITY and nd if its true and not assume it’s already pseudo. It doesn’t work that way.
Initially say for 30 years, I too din’t believe all these. I just kept on searching if it’s true. I still lead a normal life, and
people around me too don’t follow any guru so far.
NT
We are not discussing. We are not having a conversation. You didn’t watch even the 10 minute clip I gave you. You
did not address anything from it. You just repeated your personal experience and said the same thing that
everyone else with these fake gurus says. Dig deep.
I believe your story. I even believe your spine shook and you think you are full of bliss. I already have all those
friends. If you are having mild seizures from meditation, don’t call that “energy receptivity” like Jaggu is Darth Vader
or Yoda.
You keep saying dig deep. You are neck deep in pseudoscience crap. Jaggu using rudhraksha isn’t him interacting
with energies from time of universe creation. It is a very well-known crap. You don’t even need meditation for that. I
gave you a clip explaining it. Why won’t you watch it? It is not that long. I know you won’t watch the full program
anyway because it is not in line with your beliefs.
Reiki is famous crap. It has been proven wrong. There is no “good genuine reiki guru” just like there no genuine yogi
who can control energies. The whole idea is crap. The whole concept of you managing vibrations with mind is. I can
give you lots of science explaining to you how it is proven wrong. I am sure there are many mentions on this web
site on it. But what is the point? When it is you who won’t even try to scratch the surface in understanding what
pseudoscience is, when you put pseudoscience as if it is just a belief when it gives strong scienti c proof, how can
you possibly understand?
You know what, even if you don’t think Rudraksha dowsing and Reiki are not pseudoscience, name 10
pseudosciences that people around you believe or you got whatsapp messages of. Let’s see how well you
understand pseudoscience. Why are they pseudosciences and how were they proven as that?
Jaggu’s wife did not go into mahasamadhi. People are saying he accidentally overdosed her on sleeping pills. May
be just a rumor since I can’t believe everything I read from people I don’t know about, but that sounds much more
likely than mahasamadhi. I know all stories you hear about yogis going to mahasamadhi. You don’t have to repeat
them. They are just stories, no solid proofs.
Next you will talk about auras. My friends do. Please don’t. They are proven crap too. Yes, I know what kirlian
photography is.
I know that if I meditate for 30 days or so, I might feel the same things you did. The di erence is I don’t care about
feeling things. Relying on feelings are foolish. Try this for 30 days is no di erent from a drug pusher telling you that
he guarantees it will work. I know, you are not pro ting here like Jaggu and Sri Sri. Yes, the drug will “work”. But that
is not the point. I am agreeing with you it will e ect my brain. I have seen the e ects on my friends. Some of them
grin all the time too. I also believe that initially it won’t damage your life. Give it some time, a few more years. You
will say you are in bliss, but still have short temper when challenged. Your career will start to stagnate etc because
you will neglect it. You will start to alienate people. But you won’t recognize any of that since it will happen
gradually.
VJ
@Ashok, Please do a 10 minutes experiment and not 30 days. Make a pendulum of rudraksh. You can take any
rudraksh, any holy or unholy thread at any stationary place. Hand it and don’t hold it in your hand. Put milk, water,
egg, breads, anything turn by turn. Your rudraksh will stay stationary.
And dear, sensations are not positive or negative energies. Even if you feel current in your spine, even if you feel
cold air coming out from your head, what is the di erence that they make? Isn’t street magic a better option?
In the above blogs of yours, you are almost dictating, in a very humble manner though, that Jagdish is a realised
being. You have, in similar manner, dictated the realised status about many others.
My point is, lets us say that such a realised one should not be spreading anything which is wrong. So to prove him
wrong, it should be enough to prove his one mistake! Which, out of many, is the rudraksh pendulum. See, a normal
human can make incorrect claims but a realised mystic shall not spread false logics!
Ashok, NT is overly satirical about Jagdish, he should not be. But he is acknowledging your experiences. I personally
experienced such bizarre things as well and once in Isha center at Coimbatore. But They don’t mean anything to
me, people can hug such memories, those sensations for lifetime though.
Jagdish can be a genuinely realised in only one case that he accurately nows how big liar he is, how fake and
borrowed knowledge he has and uses! Only in that case he is a true realized person but inevitably a fraud and
dishonest man. as well
Apoorva
People like Jaggi and Nityananda, conduct workshops, especially the ones which are outside of India and charge
thousands of dollars per person.
Also add the expensive vooDoo things they sell on their websites, mainly for overseas customers.
These kind of people are hand in glove with politicians and share their fraudulent earnings along with commanding
vote bank of their followers.
In turn, the politicians will not prosecute these fraudsters.
Ashok
See I am not supporting Jaggi or some other guru.
I saw the video, but I am sorry the video speaks about herd mentality and why they believe things blindly and stand
by it.
I don’t believe in Jaggi, idols, gemstones, CONSECRATION. I know how they work.
For eg: if I have to understand why my bike is not working either I need to be a mechanic or understand what the
mechanic is saying. For which again I need to understand some basics about bike.
Same thing about Mahasamadhi – a person can die at will. You have to nd how do they do it. Then comment ts
fake. I have already shared all those people who died at will. You have to rst know what is mahasamadhi, is it
possible, dig deep and nd truth.
CONSECRATION – you say it’s fake. Agreed. I am saying go meet any ancient temple architect. See how temples are
built as per Agama Shastras. Find the truth about energies. Find does Consecration really ENERGIZE a place around
you and cam it bene t you. As I said when we listen to abike mechanic, same way have a RECEPTIVE mind set, does
it work or not. Not xed already that it’s pseudo science.
Reiki, Yoga, Siddha – Yes 99% people are fake. But nd, can a person master his life energies. Yes they can. For this
you need to again know the basics. Yoga, Reiki are not physical or mental exercises. Yes, one bene t is health but
they work on a certain dimension beyond your 5 senses. They give you access to dimensions beyond your 5 senses.
It’s not hallucinations or feel good factor. It’s a certain capability you acquire if you meet a authentic yoga guru, reiki
Master or a Siddha or if you practice yourself with a certain mindset of say let me see if yoga really works on my life
energies and gives me experience beyond 5 senses. I repeat 99% yoga, reiki etc are fake and diluted today. So don’t
judge just coz 99% people are fake yogis, reiki Master, yoga, reiki etc is fake.
First thing all modern science is not the latest. There are many ancient Indian science, even Egyptians and other
civilizations which are way advanced than today’s technology. Ask any reputed historian, scientists, they will tell
ancient Indians were advanced than today’s scientists in certain aspects.
Like this many ancient civilizations had inventions, scienti c technology advanced than today’s modern technology.
Just Google. Yes know you will say where they got lost. So again you have to nd how they got lost instead of
assuming it’s fake and ancient civilizations were just out dated.
All I am saying google, more importantly meet people who know properly about CONSECRATION and energizing
non living objects, Yoga, Siddhas who have mastered their life energies, Mahasamadhi, Rebirth.
I am not saying these are supernatural. I am saying there are ways to access a dimension beyond 5 senses.
Still if you don’t agree, I respect your opinions at same time I am sorry but I too don’t agree on your views.
Hope we MAINTAIN THE same DECORUM and maintain the good relationship.
Just coz Jaggi, Nitya etc. are fake how can one say mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION, Rebirth is fake.
Don’t connect it to Jaggi or Nitya. They din’t start mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION or discovered rebirth.
These things are not pseudo science. You nd, you will know the truth.
NT
You guys are parroting the same videos with no thinking whatsoever.
Girish – “he is trying to say things that are not perceivable through ve senses”
Ashok – “I am saying there are ways to access a dimension beyond 5 senses”
Of course, there are many things you cannot perceive with 5 senses – infrared, ultraviolet, microwave, x-ray,
gamma-rays, ultrasound, gravitational waves and so many more. Which of those can you perceive by meditation?
Nothing.
Nityananda probably felt gravity waves as soon as he heard of them though. Jaggu will just dismiss them and say he
was feeling them all along, long before these silly scientists thought of it.
What you do feel is damage from over breathing and under breathing. Brain is oxygen sensitive. You are not getting
spidey-sense from Jaggu, Nityananda and Sri Sri meditation. It is your brain getting damage. Perfect example of
brain damage from excess meditation is Nityananda logic, Jaggu needs a few more years of brain damage before
he talks like Nityananda or maybe he does not overdo it to that level. But all these modern gurus, maharshis and
brahmarshis talk crap like this. So I think it means it is excess meditation problem.
You are talking 2 ways.
Before – “Coming to Sadhguru, ….. He knows how to handle the very life energies that is source of all creation.”
Now – “See I am not supporting Jaggi or some other guru.”
“the video speaks about herd mentality and why they believe things blindly and stand by it.”
Yes, it also speaks about energy pseudoscience beliefs which you also have. But you ignored that. And I do think
you also fall into herd mentality. Every pseudoscience crap you listed so far, I heard from the herd already, my own
friend herd.
Side point, when I say crap a lot, I mean your ideas are crap, I am not saying you are crap. I feel you are a very nice
person with stupid ideas. I just want to know where my friends are getting these stupid ideas. They always become
silent when I give them links.
For example, you said: “I don’t believe in Jaggi, idols, gemstones, CONSECRATION. I know how they work.”
So it looks like you don’t the di erence between blind beliefs and “know”. Look man, I understand, no one will
admit they have any blind belief at all, not a single one. It is always, I know personally, you just don’t understand.
That is exactly how blind belief works. I ask – OK, show me proof. You say – Someone somewhere put this crap on a
web page or wrote a book, so it must be true. Also, you need to experience it yourself, so believe rst.
Let’s take gems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_healing
In 1999, researchers French and Williams conducted a study to investigate the power of crystals compared with a
placebo. Eighty volunteers were asked to meditate with either a quartz crystal, or a placebo stone which was
indistinguishable from quartz. Many of the participants reported feeling typical “crystal e ects”; however, this was
irrespective of whether the crystals were real or placebo. In 2001 Christopher French, head of the anomalistic
psychology research unit at the University of London and colleagues from Goldsmiths College outlined their study
of crystal healing at the British Psychological Society Centenary Annual Conference, concluding “There is no
evidence that crystal healing works over and above a placebo e ect.”
You see, you will “feel” e ects of wearing gems. You will also feel the same e ect if I give you a fake gem. Do you
understand what that is called? A DELUSION. That is what feelings are. It is not that I need to “dig deep” for feelings.
If you dig deep, you dig yourself into a hole.
Same study can be done with gold. Take gold energy believers like you, give half real gold and another half fake
gold, and tell them all it is real gold. Same percent of people in both groups will say it gave positive energy to them.
The same thing works for Reiki. They already tested Reiki thoroughly.
Then you will say – “Yes 99% people are fake”. You mean 99% of Reiki practitioners are fake, but you know some
good ones.
It is always like this crap
99% of religion is wrong. But the one I was born in or converted to is correct, I know. You don’t understand. Try it.
99% of reiki is wrong. But the one who treats me is genuine. It works. Try it.
99% of some other “alternative” medicine is wrong. But the one I use is genuine. It works. Try it.
99% of superstitions (gold, gems etc) are foolish. But the superstitions I have are true. I know. You don’t
understand. Dig deep.
99% of babas are fake. But the one I like is real. You don’t understand. Listen to him.
Look, once you get to this 99% nonsense, you already are 100% wrong. You just don’t get it. You need help to
understand that remaining 1%. But you will cling to that one 1% much stronger than to the rest of the 99%.
“Like this many ancient civilizations had inventions, scienti c technology advanced than today’s modern technology.
Just Google.”
I know enough crap web sites that talk like this and that ends up in whatsapp messages. I can’t believe you guys
nished engineering college and came out like this.
“Yes know you will say where they got lost.”
Erm, no I won’t. It never existed. “(ancient) scienti c technology advanced than today’s modern technology” did not
exist. You just can’t tell the di erence between crap and facts. That is your (and my friends) entire problem. You
guys believe basically anything, more impossible, the better. You have no sense of history. Never studied it. But you
all like to think you know all ancient secrets that the rest of us who did just don’t understand.
“I am saying go meet any ancient temple architect.”
Do you have a time machine to lend me? I will go back in time and gladly talk to these ancient energy temple
architects … and tell them they are full of crap!!! (but otherwise good job guys, thanks)
Shani temple and Jagannath temple don’t have magic energies just because they are designed with some silly
“shastra”. I am tired of those whatsapp messages. If you want, I can make up some shastra for you too. Will you
believe it if I use English or does it have to be in Samskrit? I will have to check Google Translate. I heard those Nadi
guys are good at printing fake palm leaves that look old. Then we can have yet another “shastra”.
“Just coz Jaggi, Nitya etc. are fake how can one say mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION, Rebirth is fake. …….. These
things are not pseudo science.”
OK ne, I won’t challenge your religious beliefs. I know I am not changing anyone’s mind on that. They are too deep.
I am content to make the point that Jaggi and Nitya are fake.
Ashok
Okay let’s go step by step. I too will be happy to proven wrong. I am not one of those who believe things. I don’t
believe anything. Either i know or do not know.
Here’s rebirth proofs. Please prove these as fake. Don’t share some other proofs to say rebirth is fake. In that case I
can also go on sharing proofs rebirth is true. That will end nowhere. It will be tit for tat.
So prove this proofs as fake.
6 kids who remember their past lives
https://youtu.be/qxGMzIRrtwg
Scienti c evidence of rebirth by Jim Tucker
https://youtu.be/z-1BvpDZwiw
There are many proofs. I am sharing just a couple for lack of time. I repeat prove these two videos as fake and
PROVE REBIRTH is fake.
If you share other proofs I repeat it will go nowhere. You are sharing proofs what you think is true which I don’t
agree. You already assume my proofs are fake and share your side proofs. So to avoid argument whose proof is
genuine, its best you prove the two videos I shared on rebirth are fake.
Next we will goto other topics.
As for Mahasamadhi, people can die at will. Yes, I have shared the people and their mahasamadhi stories who died
at will. Atleast prove one of them as fake.
Here is one more Swami Ramalingam who made his body into light and attainined mahasamadhi.
Finally, the forecasted midnight of 30th January arrived. Addressing the gathering of about half-thousand devotees,
“I shall remain locked in this room for about ten to fteen days. Do not try to catch a glimpse within or your vision
will be stunned. You would not see anything. If you still try to steal a look, my Lord would not allow me to be seen.”
Saying thus, Rāmalingam entered the room which was locked by the devotees. As the devotees sang “Arut Perum
Jothi” or the ‘Divine Graceful Light’ – the mantra worded to them by Ramalingam –they suddenly saw a glistening
blue light escaping from the room and merging into the spanless sky.
No one saw him after that.
The disappearance of Rāmalingam created a stir in the nearby regions. Many rumors held sway and the re
reached Madrās. The Government ordered the matter to be investigated and thereby sent Mr. J.H. Garstein, I.C.S.,
Chief Collector of South Ārcot, ̣ Mr. George Benverry, I.C.S. Revenue Board, the District Medical O cer, and Tehsīldār
Mr. Venkatraman
̣ Aiyyar.
In an atmosphere charged with deep emotion, the room was unlocked. But as expected by the devotees, nothing
was found within. The o cers carried out their investigations but did not nd any evidence of deceit. At last, they
concluded that Swami Rāmalingam was indeed a very great soul and had really disappeared along with his body.
This extraordinary happening is recorded in the Madras District Gazette – South Ārcot (1906,
̣ Page 316-317).
Still you don’t think people can die at will or attain mahasamadhi, let’s put an end to this. Lets take the bull by horn.
Come to Isha foundation. Let me know when you are coming. We will enquire and ask for proof and how it’s done.
In the ashram there are people who will quit their body at will. If I am wrong, I will PUBLICLY PUBLISH that
Mahasamadhi is fake. Apologize to you I was wrong.
To know somethings you have to make e ort and see physically present to understand is it really true. That is what
I meant by dig deep. Not to bury oneself.
Btw Hinduism is not a religion. I have already shared what is Hinduism. Hindu(Land between
Himalayas)+Sagara(Indian Ocean)= so anyone, anything born in this region is a Hindu. It’s a geographical identity.
Point is I am Atheist and I can be a Hindu.

You worship God you are a Hindu.
You worship Allah or Jesus also you are a Hindu.
Only thing is you follow what you want and let others follow they what they want.
Hinduism – it’s a long video. Hope you know Hindi language.
https://youtu.be/1iJOfxjaOZQ
Kindly go through the full video. There is no use calling Hinduism as religion without going through this video.
Finally, just come to Isha foundation, I will ENSURE you remember your past life, get 100% predictions about your
future, show you how mahasamadhi is done.
As I said if I am wrong i will apologize. As I said I too don’t want to waste my time, life on false things.
Let’s not drag this forever. It’s going nowhere. Let’s take the bull by horns.
I will be more happy to be proven wrong about CONSECRATION, ENERGIES, REBIRTH, MAHASAMADHI.
VJ
@ Ashok, I am waiting for your personal experience with rudraksh pendulum.
NT
I noticed one thing about ISHA people. They normally try to drag discussion into obscure science when it is obvious
Jaggu does not understand basic science. It is a distraction strategy.
I said, I am not interested in criticizing plain religion. Now you are instantly trying to drag the discussion into
religion. I will go along… once.
sure step by step
Reincarnation
Your both videos are about Ian Stevenson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson#Reception
Despite this early interest, most scientists ignored Stevenson’s work. According to his New York Times obituary, his
detractors saw him as “earnest, dogged but ultimately misguided, led astray by gullibility, wishful thinking and a
tendency to see science where others saw superstition.”[7] Critics suggested that the children or their parents had
deceived him, that he was too willing to believe them, and that he had asked them leading questions. In addition,
critics said, the results were subject to con rmation bias, in that cases not supportive of the hypothesis were not
presented as counting against it.[8] Leonard Angel, a philosopher of religion, told The New York Times that
Stevenson did not follow proper standards. “[B]ut you do have to look carefully to see it; that’s why he’s been very
persuasive to many people.”[7]
So no, “most scientists ignored Stevenson’s work” is not “Scienti c evidence of rebirth”. It is the opposite.
http://www.skepdic.com/stevenson.html
Chris Tucker, his student, sounds like he is another Quantum Crazy. He says 70% kids remember. Yet, he can’t
prove even one to scientists.
Mahasamadhi
Rāmalingam story looks like complete fraud. People can disappear on open stage, forget about from a room no
one is allowed to look into. None of the skeptics worry about getting vision stunned.
If ISHA publicly and uncontroversially demonstrates Mahasadhi I will join ISHA. Fine? Why wouldn’t I? You should do
it. Hinduism will become the fastest growing religion. ISHA will become internationally famous. The Mahasadhi guys
will be regarded as saints. Jaggu will become a prophet. So what’s stopping you?
Be sure to advertise for months, call all skeptical journalists and Scientists. Then repeat it in US in front of Richard
Dawkins and Chris French from the Enemies of reason video. Easier to fake it in India, harder in front of US
scientists. No the test can’t take place in ISHA. It should take place in the hands of people who don’t believe.
People should become pure light as press cameras are watching with full precautions against fraud as ensured by
skeptics, fraud busters and scientists, not in some don’t look while I run away scam situation.
You say
“Point is I am Atheist and I can be a Hindu. You worship God you are a Hindu.”
I don’t think you even understand the concept of an Atheist. No wonder you are so confused. Atheists don’t think
God exists at all. If you worship, you are not an atheist. I have no idea why you think you are. This is a simple
concept. Don’t meditate so much. Think. You can worry about enlightenment later.
I am confused. Now you are talking like an ISHA representative. “Finally, just come to Isha foundation”. That is quite
a bit di erent from when you said – “See I am not supporting Jaggi or some other guru”.
I am beginning to think there is no Ashok. It is just a nickname that ISHA cell is handling.
“Finally, just come to Isha foundation, I will ENSURE you remember your past life”
If I come, you guys will send me to not past life but next life, which there isn’t. So no thanks. I don’t think anyone
there is getting ready to quit bodies because “NT” from Internet said something. Your plans will be di erent.
NT
VJ, the test won’t work as you stated.

It will only work if someone else masks what he is holding the pendulum against and also is not present in the
room. See Chris French experiment.
People don’t follow this important step and will think it works. That is how dowsers convince themselves. You were
already suspicious. So it did not work for you. But a believer will sub-consciously move it as expected. That is the
point of ideomotor e ect.
Ashok
Ok let’s keep it simple.

Mahasamadhi, Consecration, Rebirth. These are the things I want to prove to you as true.
Let me know when you are coming to Isha.

Even I will come there.
Let’s nd out the truth rst hand.
Let’s put an end to this debate.
Ashok
Hi @VJ
About power of Rudarksh or does it work. This is what I want to share.
https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/wisdom/article/the-signi cance-of-rudraksh
Most importantly learn about Rudarksh and YOU SHOULD WEAR GENUINE ONE FACED RUDARKSH after
FOLLOWING PROPER ENERGIZING METHODS and procedure.
People say if you wear (One face rudarksh) an ek mukhi, you will leave your family within twelve days. Whether you
leave the family or it happens in 12 days is not the issue, it is just that it will make your energies in such a way that
you will want to be alone. It doesn’t make you compatible to be with other people. Some people may take few
months or weeks to notice the di erence.
Now may be it will not a ect you.

So does it mean it’s fake.
But let 100 people try who SAY RUDARKSH is FAKE. Yes, @NT and all people who say RUDARKSH has no powers and
it’s pseudo science. You will see that SURELY people will either leave the family or they will CLEARLY face issues with
all the people around them. Point is not 12 days or it didn’t happen to you. Try 100 people who are SURE
RUDARKSH has no powers. But these people should know about Rudarksh, wear GENUINE one faced Rudarksh and
energize Rudarksh and wear after following proper procedure.
Most importantly I repeat learn about Rudarksh and YOU SHOULD WEAR GENUINE ONE FACED RUDARKSH after
FOLLOWING PROPER ENERGIZING METHODS and procedure.
Follow proper procedure, read about Rudarksh, wear GENUINE ENERGIZED ONE FACED RUDARKSH and then
comment Rudarksh has no powers. You will SEE people who had good life, great careers, enjoyed family life will
notice changes. Out of 100 surely the SAME people who challenged Rudarksh has no powers, some will
immediately notice the changes in their normal life.
Please don’t argue without trying. All folks who say RUDARKSH has no powers, Do it.
I could have shared other links about Rudarksh, but I think this forum doesn’t judge someone because I shared Isha
resource again and again. Do not judge or assume just coz I share Isha foundation resource, I follow them.
I repeat I don’t follow Sadhguru or support Isha. So stop assuming things I am from Isha.
@NT I will be rst person to PUBLISH RESULTS if they are fake or propogate pseudo science.
Both of us are not ready to agree about the proofs shared.
As I said let’s keep it simple.
This is your best chance. I am ready to come there, enquire in Isha and demand proofs, are you ready???? Again
don’t assume I am from Isha. I will be rst person to acknowledge if Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION and Rebirth is
fake.
Ashok
As for Gemstones, buy GENUINE CERTIFIED BLUE SAPPHIRE GEMSTONE. Energize the gem stone with proper
Mantras, and then wear it. 100 people who say Gemstones are FAKE, do this.
I am saying it doesn’t happen to one person, doesn’t mean it’s fake.
You will see SURELY out of those 100 people who had no ill e ects in their life will be a ected. Just give it time.
Now folks don’t argue why time, why not a ect all, why energizing, why certi ed genuine gemstone, why 100
people, why it didn’t a ect one person.
Just because it din’t a ect one or few people it doesn’t mean it’s fake. Because you think everyone who wears
gemstone, rudarksh or should feel changes.
See you are saying it’s fake. I am saying it’s true. So simple just do it the way I have said and then see. It’s fake for
you because you have observed, collected proofs based on what you agree gemstone, Rudarksh is fake.
But what I can GUARANTEE is out of those 100 people who are SURE that Rudarksh and Gemstone is fake will no
more say it’s fake. This much I can assure. I say it’s true but only if you follow the way I have shared.
I am not blurting out stu . I am saying do it this way. Out of 100 People who challenged Rudarksh or gemstone will
no more say it’s fake.
VJ
@Ashok… I have a lot heard the nonsense about the powers of rudraksh. Why to complicate it? Why to nd 100
innocent people? Why not just check yourself if the claims are correct or hilariously wrong!
Ashok
@VJ it works for me. Google about Rajasic, Rajasic and Sattwic food categories. Rudarksh helps nd if it is positive
pranic food or negative.
Genuine certi ed Rudarksh energized with Mantras works. A fake and plain Rudarksh which is just brought from
shop and Not energized will not work. Even on water which is polluted or poisoned, Rudarksh moves anti clockwise.
I only said do it with 100 people who claim like you Rudarksh is fake. Not just any innocent people. You folks wear
one faced Rudarksh, do it. Suddenly the very folks who say Rudarksh is useless will agree it has powers. The folks
will face issues with people or leave family life.
Because I am saying Rudarksh detects negative energy you are saying No. Both of us don’t agree. I don’t agree with
you and you don’t agree with me. Now you will not agree with me. So I told you do it with 100 people who claim like
NT, you and others, Rudarksh is useless. Yes do the experiment with very people who like you say Rudarksh is
useless. Then you say share the results. Then we will who is wrong.
Apoorva
@Ashok, Sorry to say this but you seem to be a spokesperson of Isha foundation.
Just like soft core apologists of Christianity. They put across thier points in the similar way.
Again and again people are proving that Jaggi and Nitya are fake fraudstres and you want to cite their resources to
prove your point.
” I don’t believe Jaggi but I believe the things he put on his website and also I invite you to this shop” How does such
logic sound to you?
VJ
@Ashok, what a strange literate person you are. You display manners but you don’t even read what I typed. Let me
rephrase, Hang your precious rudraksh (anything it be) on any sturdy, stationary hook and put your rajasik, tamsik
and satwik food beneath it. And see what happens, if something happens at all.
Either you have done it and nothing happened and you are just using you stored literature here.
Or you just skipped that and replying me without reading what I said.
Or you you are afraid, for you very well know nothing will happen.
Or you will give some another irrelevant and overly large borrowed statements!
Or you will skip this.
Ashok
@VJ I already said you don’t agree that Rudarksh works. I have done the experiment again which you don’t agree.
So I told you test it with 100 people like you who say Rudarksh does not have powers. All the folks who say
Rudarksh has no powers, wear one faced Rudarksh. Do it. Then you tell who is wrong. 100 folks who say Rudarksh
has no powers do it. Why you guys backing out, diverting from the topic. Publish the results, record it scienti cally.
Then…say Rudarksh does not work..
Ashok
Hi @Apoorva, I am not spokesperson of Isha. I will be rst person to PUBLISH and share if Rebirth, CONSECRATION,
Mahasamadhi is fake.
I repeat I don’t want to follow false things and waste my time, resource and life.
Let’s come to the point. You guys sitting and typing, me sitting and typing is not working. You guys don’t agree with
me and I don’t agree with you.
I am ready to come to Isha foundation. Enquire, ask for proofs and PUBLISH and share if Mahasamadhi, Rebirth,
CONSECRATION is fake. You guys can simply go on commenting or take the opportunity to come and put and end
to this…Choice is yours..
NT
for reference
http://nirmukta.com/2012/05/19/temple-pseudoscience/
also
http://nirmukta.com/2010/01/01/update-in-the-case-of-the-7-year-old-sambhavi-declared-the-reincarnation-of-a-
buddhist-goddess
A famous quote: When Your Opponent Is Digging a Hole (Dig Deep), Hand Him a Shovel.
Ashok
Opponent – this is not about me versus you. It’s about whether CONSECRATION, REBIRTH, MAHASAMADHI is true
or fake.
This is your best chance. I am ready to come there, enquire in Isha and demand proofs, ARE YOU READY????
Why are you backing out????

You agree that your right, I agree I am right. So let’s get out, nd the truth.
Again don’t assume I am from Isha. I will be the rst person to acknowledge if Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION and
Rebirth is fake, share and PUBLISH if it’s fake.
There is No point you going on commenting..
Tanmaya
@Ashok
The Rudraksha works on the subconscious ideomotor responses. If you searched in the scienti c literature you will
nd a simple and well-established explanation for this phenomenon. Instead of going through it with you here, let
me simply point to a source: http://www.psychicscience.org/dows1.aspx
Ashok
@Tanmaya I already said to @VJ. You don’t agree that Rudarksh works. I have done the experiment and it works.
Which again you don’t agree.
So I told you test it with 100 people like you who say Rudarksh does not have powers. All the folks who say
Rudarksh has no powers, wear one faced Rudarksh. They will leave their family in 12 days or face issues with all
people around them. But follow the procedure what I shared and wear Rudarksh accordinly. Do it. Then you tell
who is wrong. 100 folks who say Rudarksh has no powers do it. Why you guys backing out, diverting from the topic.
Publish the results, record it scienti cally. Then…say Rudarksh does not work..
NT
http://halfcenturywisdom.blogspot.com/2016/08/a-chance-encounter-that-stirred-me-to.html
I made a mistake. I thought that his wife died because of accidental overdosing of sleeping pills through him.
Actually the real allegation is much worse – he killed her with sleeping pills deliberately after imprisoning her for a
long time because he was having an a air with another woman (second extra-marital a air for him) who was richer
and better connected.
https://sadhgurukilledhiswife.wordpress.com
There is a lot of discussion about this.
This is why ISHA crazies like Ashok are obsessed about Mahasamadhi being true and won’t give an inch even if the
entire concept is ridiculous. If it is fake then they will have to accept the alternative version and that their last few
years of life have been living a lie.
They would rather believe that bodies become pure light even though the account – don’t watch while I escape, is
so childish. His wife certainly did not become pure light. Her body had to be burned in a hurry because autopsy can
detect sleeping pills.
Same crap with consecration. These dumb followers have negative intelligence.
So many meditation crooks.
Nityananda followers won’t admit his a air even when there is a video. He has sexual assault charges.
Subhash Patri (calls himself Brahmarshi) also has charges.
Virender Dev Dixit was imprisoning women.
Ram Rahim killed and raped.
Rampal sentenced to life after 2 murders.
If you “Dig Deep”, every single major meditation merchant is a criminal.
Ashok
Hi @NT it’s okay even if you don’t agree but why do you have to be abusive and calling me ISHA crazy.
Can’t you get it. This is not about me versus you. It’s about whether CONSECRATION, REBIRTH, MAHASAMADHI is
true or fake.
I have already you multiple times.
Why are you backing out????

You agree that your right with proofs what you have, I agree I am right with proofs what I have. So let’s get out, nd
the truth.
I can also go on sharing links contradicting the proofs you shared.
Again don’t assume I am from Isha. I will be the rst person to acknowledge if Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION and
Rebirth is fake, share and PUBLISH if it’s fake.
There is No point you going on commenting..
I will come to Isha, why are you backing out???? Let’s put an end to this…simply you commenting will not make me
wrong or show you are right… sometimes you need to get in the eld and nd…which I am ready but you are not..
NT
Tanmaya
“If you searched in the scienti c literature you will nd a simple and well-established explanation for this
phenomenon.”
Thank you for the link but if any of these people have ever searched “scienti c literature” looking to understand
“phenomenon” through “well-established explanation”, they would not be crawling behind crazy criminals or would
instantly quit the minute they heard nonsense.
They think if you remember E=MC2, that is enough science for a lifetime. They are looking for special explanations
that are opposite to what scientists have to feel special.
I can guarantee that not a single one in any of these in meditation groups are capable of any of that. They never
even met anyone like that. Look at Ashok. I think you already saw how his mind works. Do you think he would be
here if he ever did that even once in his life? That is why I stick to simple and annoying words like c-r-a-p, even
though that is not “decorum” and is even likely to make them defensive, because it talks to feelings directly.
He only remembers simple sentences from school like energy and mass can be converted. That is for them full
license to any magic. Nevermind that an atom bomb is less than 1 gram of ssile matter converting and that a 60kg
person cannot casually, entirely and instantly convert to energy by just thinking it. Think of them as kids reading
super hero comics when they are thinking about meditation. Even that logic is too deep for them. Today’s comic
books are too complicated for people behind these gurus, forget about scienti c literature.
These gurus train them to dismiss science beyond any super cial detail they can exploit for their magic
explanations because they might gure out their magic crap otherwise. They tell them to forget logic and just feel.
Feelings are all they can communicate now, not arguments or fancy wancy things like “evidence”.
Ashok
@NT even I can go on giving wisecracks sitting at my computer.
Just because you put your comments with CONTENT doesn’t make you right.
In this debate like how you have dismissed the proofs I shared, I too don’t agree with any of your proofs.
Still I am willing to put an end to this debate by directly going to that place, enquire, nd proofs, share and
PUBLISH.
I repeat again and again, if I am proven wrong i will admit.
You sitting and commenting about science doesn’t make you an expert on that topic.
Me sitting and contradicting you doesn’t make me wrong.
You think what I am saying is dumb.

Good, I will make it DUMBER for you.
Why don’t you just come to Isha, even I will come. SIMPLE..
NO BUT YOU ARE SMART, and you will just go on commenting about scienti c air…
You don’t always have to be smart when simplicity works. Common Sense, I am giving multiple chances to directly
come, let both of us enquire, collect evidence and prove MAHASAMADHI, CONSECRATION, REBIRTH as fake. Simple.
No but you are Smart and keep on commenting…
Ashok
@NT see this is what I am saying???
DISCLAIMER: I don’t follow any guru.

I don’t support Isha foundation. I don’t care if Sadhguru or Isha foundation is proven fake.
Even if Sadhguru allegedly killed his wife, point is not that, I am saying is Mahasamadhi fake???
I have shared Many other people who have quit their body at will in front of many witnesses in my earlier
comments – like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Trailanga, Nirmalanda, Ramana Maharishi, Nerur
BRAHMENDRA Saraswati, Swami Ramalingam etc. There are many witnesses to these events but for you all those
witness are dumb, mind washed people.
Did Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev Kill His Wife?
https://medium.com/spreadjoy/did-sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-kill-his-wife-4eb3f0cce824
One allegation that keeps coming against Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev is that he killed his wife. Let’s look at the facts,
rst. Shall we?
Sadhguru’s wife, Vijayakumari, is said to have attained Mahasamadhi in the year 1997. There was a case led
against Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev after this incident. Skeptics claim that nothing happened because he is a Godman.
Facts:
(1) There were hundreds of witnesses to Vijayakumari’s Mahasamadhi since this happened in a program conducted
at the Isha Yoga Center in Coimbatore.
(2) Case was led in Bangalore only after 7 months of her death.
(3) Case transferred to Coimbatore police from Bangalore. After due investigation, the Coimbatore city police closed
the case as baseless.
For more details in this case, refer to someone who has obviously done a lot of research on this topic.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/hindu2/2016/08/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudevs-wifes-death-controversy-truth/
About 7 months after the death, the New Indian Express newspaper reported in August that a case had been led
in the Bangalore police station against Sadhguru, accusing him of causing the death of his wife. The case was
transferred to the Coimbatore Police. However, 8 months later, a news report notes that the case was closed after
investigation by police, who found no wrongdoing and concluded that there was no case for further investigation.
A case of murder or similar accusations being closed as having no evidence either means the case was closed
because of “pressure”, or the case was opened because of “pressure.” Which is the case here? It is hard to nd any
“hard” evidence because of the very nature of such “pressure”. However, the New Indian Express and the Tamil
magazine Nakeeran noted that the local DMK MLA — DMK is one of the political parties in Tamil Nadu — had
assured that “Jaggi would be put in jail.” (this is translated from Tamil).
That gives a possible clue. Probably the case was opened upon pressure. For the police to close a case in a few
months citing no evidence, despite pressure from the local MLA, probably means there wasn’t even a shred to pick
up and make a case out of. This is conjecture of course, but I think this makes it reasonably clear that there was
some pressure for them to forcibly le and make a case out of it.
Did Sadhguru run away to escape the case?
Some ‘intellectuals’ claim that Sadhguru ed to the USA to escape prosecution in this case. I am surprised to hear
such arguments because he is very much in India for last several years now and no action has been taken yet!
And he is not a US citizen — he keeps coming back every few days. Shouldn’t this trigger a logical question in the
skeptics’ mind about the authenticity of this allegation?
Was the case dismissed because he is a Godman?
There are those who claim that the case was dismissed because he was a Godman. People should remember that
he was just a yoga teacher who had taught hardly a few hundred (may be thousand) meditators in 1997. He was
not even popular outside Coimbatore area. So, how can it be that he was so in uential to escape such a strong
case? Even the Shankaracharya of Kanchipuram Math could not escape the clutches of law once they had a strong
case against him! So, this is just a rubbish claim.
What is the truth then?
In the yogic culture, “Mahasamadhi” is an act of intentionally and consciously leaving your body. The Oriental
culture has seen many Tibetan, Hindu and Zen Masters such a this graceful exit from this world. This is seen as the
ultimate and a feat that requires utmost dedication and determination in one’s yoga Sadhana.
Sadhguru’s wife, Viji or Vijayakumari, has achieved such an ultimate feat. It is saddening that such a person is not
looked upon with reverence for this. And what worsens the situation is spreading lies around such an open
situation! That, unfortunately, is the current state of TamilNadu.
I can go on sharing proofs many, many of them about CONSECRATION, REBIRTH, MAHASAMADHI is true. You can
go on to deny them.
You share proofs.
I don’t agree with them.
So let’s keep it SIMPLE.
Common Sense, I am giving multiple chances to directly come to Isha, even I will come. Let both of us enquire,
collect evidence and prove MAHASAMADHI, CONSECRATION, REBIRTH as fake. Simple.
I repeat I don’t follow any guru or support any Isha foundation.
I repeat I am aware of all the accusations on Sadhguru.
Now don’t start by taking by two lines and commenting and showing o your argumentative nesse. Read next four
lines, you can 100% say Sadhguru is fake.
Did you know SADHGURU is second husband to his deceased wife Viji.
HIS WIFE VIJI WAS ALREADY MARRIED TO SOMEONE. So stop taking two lines each…I can also give 1000 proofs to
say Sadhguru is fake…but this is where I take extra step to know the truth…
SOMETIMES THE TRUTH has to be DIRECTLY SEEN, GOTO THE PLACE, MEET THE PEOPLE, ENQUIRE YOURSELF,
COLLECT EVIDENCE and then come to conclusion when issue is not resolved.
For eg: Will you agree Gravity exists or any scienti c results by reading it or SEEING it for yourself. Which is BETTER?
When issue is not resolved…
I PREFER DIRECTLY GOING TO CRUX OF THE MATTER when issue is NOT RESOLVED, instead of reading piles of
intelligent garbage and claim I am a man of scienti c temper. SEEING, Collecting evidence for oneself is BETTER
than reading all your scienti c mumbo jumbo when issue is not resolved.
I know about –
Alleged Sadhguru wife murder. His sour relationship with daughter, his wealth accumulation, his osho in uence, his
shallow spirituality knowledge in many aspects, his alleged proximity with Bharti, his speedy funeral of his wife and
police complaint by his own father in law, his father hates him, elephant land grab, forest land grab, Political
connections, luxurious lifestyle, mind washing innocents, SSY Yoga connection, Rishi Prabhakar, his old gurus etc. If
someone asks you, in black and white you have to show this person is fake. Not make good arguments…i myself
can PROVE SADHGURU, ISHA FOUNDATION is fake.
Point is I took the extra step, saw both the sides..but you won’t AGREE With me…
So all you who don’t agree, let me know WHO IS READY TO COME, EVEN I WILL COME TO ISHA, LET’S ENQUIRE,
COLLECT PROOFS, SHARE THE TRUTH.
THIS is not the only forum, website, blog, media etc. this Science vs Spirituality, Sadhguru fake, Isha fake, etc.
debate is happening.
& INSPITE of this if Isha, Sadhguru is proven Fake, I will be rst person to share, publish they are fake.
So I REPEAT,
If I am wrong, I am ready to admit.
But simply commenting online, sharing evidence in this debate is not taking it anywhere.
Common Sense, I am giving multiple chances to directly come to Isha, even I will come. Let both of us enquire,
collect evidence and prove MAHASAMADHI, CONSECRATION, REBIRTH as fake. Simple.
No but you science followers (ONLY IN THEORY) (guys remember Science is ACTUALLY PRACTICAL) want to be smart
and keep on commenting…… shower wisecracks…and shoving o scienti c airs…so stop your science results,
theory, data, come to PRACTICALS… LET’S DO THE EXPERIMENT and nd FIRST HAND..NEWTON DIN’T DISCOVER
GRAVITY while listening to theory in his class. He was out there on the eld.
Sometimes one person doesn’t agree with science what you share, let’s do PRACTICALS, not believe others practical
data. So I am saying again and again and again, keep your Smartometer o for a moment. It has got heated up.
Give it a break. Bring your PRACTICAL NATURE OUT and common sense and let’s put an end to this debate. Simple.
I am wrong i admit..but what about you..MR. Science (Theory Only)..no PRACTICALS..just keep commenting…or
SHALL WE DO PRACTICALS this time..
You might be the best science brain in the cosmos with all the theories and data.
When I don’t agree with something, I go back to being a basic science student and have rst hand practical
experience in whatever I want to know is fake or true.
If i don’t believe even if Einstein shares the results of his ndings, what should be my next step. Even if whole world
says E=MC2, if i won’t agree I rst hand try to know it. I won’t keep on arguing or commenting.
When I don’t agree on something i don’t blabber online.
I goto the place, enquire, collect proofs, do the experiment rst hand and then come to conclusion.
But you go on keep commenting…that you are right..go on…
NT
OK, Man. Please do your fact nding mission to ISHA. By that I mean go to the next room.
I never promised you that I will come along. So I don’t know how you can call it backing out but we know how your
strange mind works by now. You saying that a hundred times like an ISHA parrot won’t change that. I would not
even give you my email address and feel safe, forget meeting you.
Please “publish” the individual information of several dozen of the hundreds of eye witnesses to her death. People
also read that ISHA defense and wrote about it. It is quite old and it was noted by ISHA critics that no one ever came
forward as an eye witness publicly.
You con rmed E=MC2 on your own? “First hand”? “Outisde”? Please let us know how. Even Einstein could not do
that.
You have a phone, you have a camera. It will take 5 minutes to record your experiment with Jaggu’s stupid
pendulum. Publish that. We will see your “ rst hand” skills.
Apoorva
@Ashok,
In earlier posts, People who have countered your “proofs” have done so by scrutinizing it point by point.
So instead of just saying,
“I don’t believe your proof/resources” (shared here), why don’t you pick a credible scienti c publication of your
choice, which debunks your claims & presents a rational explanation for a given phenomenon, and then counter it
point by point, here.
If you can’t do it then it’s plain as day that you don’t know what you are talking about, other than parroting, come to
Isha.
Ashok
@NT I have shared proofs which you don’t agree. For me the proofs are enough to say you are wrong on REBIRTH,
MAHASAMADHI, CONSECRATION.
Again I will share proofs you will say I have doctored the CONTENT, I need more videos, I need more answers, BLA,
BLA…
Like Your proofs are also no good at all to prove other side is wrong.
Plus you are the one needs to know it is wrong for which I am ready to take the risk and I am ready to come.
You are the one who is saying it is wrong sitting at home.
You go on commenting that these things are fake only shows you want others to agree you are right by reading
online.
You sit at your computer and say other side is wrong.
I am saying sitting at my computer and say you are wrong.
No di erence…
Either come, let’s prove who is wrong or you go on crowing about how you are right….
Atleast I am having courtesy to come with you and agree if REBIRTH, CONSECRATION, MAHASAMADHI is fake..
It shows your science, logic is only for theory and to be read by parrots.
Real science gets into PRACTICAL..but again I guarantee you will only comment to prove your point and not get in
action…
Ashok
@NT sitting at home I can also prove Sadhguru, Isha foundation, Mahasamadhi, Rebirth, CONSECRATION is fake.
I already mentioned this in my previous comments. Read properly…I can only prove sitting at home they are fake…
This topic deserves not observation, not theoritical parroting, scienti c gyan, to prove Mahasamadhi, Rebirth,
CONSECRATION requires PRACTICAL APPLICATION.
So rst thing is person who says it’s fake inspite of going through proofs I shared, needs to get into the eld. Follow
all due procedures to see if REBIRTH, CONSECRATION, MAHASAMADHI is fake. Without you getting rst hand
experience any video, any proof others share you will not agree.
No but you don’t even goto next room, sit in the same room, and go on crowing that I am parroting…
No di erence you are black, I am green… that’s it…
Get PRACTICAL at times…instead of just crowing……you are ‘dead’ right..
NT
Ashok, you are such a LIAR.

You never tested the pendulum and you never tested “ rst hand”, E=MC2 like you said.
This is why Jaggu tells his sheep to be “undercover yogis”. They will have a meltdown like you are having now, the
minute they try to defend their beliefs publicly. 5 questions and you guys are in a puddle.
This is what excess meditation does. I have seen it again and again.
Ashok
@NT your commenting and abusive nature shows you are only interested in commenting…that you are right..at all
costs…
If other side shares proofs, it’s parroting for you..and they are wrong..
What nonsense is this…your side proofs, you are right but other side proofs, they are wrong…
You just go on crowing…about others…they are wrong….
This is what excess scienciti c theory does with zero practical and no rst hand experience..
I repeat as you are diverting from topic…

This topic deserves FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE AND not observation, not theoritical parroting about scienti c gyan.
To prove Mahasamadhi, Rebirth, CONSECRATION requires PRACTICAL APPLICATION and rst hand experience.
Come directly, even I will come. Let’s prove mahasamadhi, Rebirth, CONSECRATION as fake…
Else go on crowing that you are right
Ashok
@NT read properly I already said I can also prove Sadhguru, Isha foundation as fake with proofs….there is enough
stu and stupid followers as proofs..
This topic requires to take that extra step and get rst hand experience and practical experience….
This topic deserves FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and not observation, not theoritical parroting about scienti c gyan
To prove Mahasamadhi, Rebirth, CONSECRATION requires PRACTICAL APPLICATION and rst hand experience.
Come directly, even I will come. Let’s prove mahasamadhi, Rebirth, CONSECRATION as fake????
If wrong i will admit…so stop crowing…that other side is pseudo, liar, blind followers…
Else you go on crowing that you are right….that others are parroting…
Ashok
@Apoorva I repeat for 3rd time. I can also sit and prove Sadhguru, ISHA is fake. There is enough stu to prove him
as fake and stupid Isha foundation followers…
I am only saying Rebirth, Rudarksh, Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION is true and I have shared umpteen proofs…
But there is no agreement…as I don’t agree with any of your proofs…
**When a topic is not getting resolved and requires rst hand experience and practical application why do you
have scrutinize the comments point by point.***
Like you think you are right with proofs you have, for me also the proofs on Rebirth, Mahasamadhi, Rudarksh,
Consecration is enough to prove its right..
So if anyone of you wants to just comment you are always right..go on…
For me the proofs are enough still if you guys who don’t agree. Come, i am ready to take it to next level, I am ready
to go the crux of the matter, meet folks, ask proofs, get evidence and nd out if its fake..
Ashok
@Apoorva speaking about credibility. The sources you share are credible for you while other side sources are
credible for them.
Best way to be Credible is you yourself and all folks who quote from credible sources, why don’t you become
credible.
Ya, goto Isha, even I will come, let’s prove what is fake..what is right.else you guys go on crowing…you are right…
Quoting, references from credible sources or being credible yourself.which is superior…use your logic…
NT
I am just calling out your crap.
I am asking you once again.
You said: “Even if whole world says E=MC2, if i won’t agree I rst hand try to know it.”
So how did you try rst hand and know E=MC2 is true? Famous Nityananda method? It is in the link I posted.
You said you got a di erent result with the pendulum. Show us the video, no need for audio, no need for your face
in video. Show how pendulum behaved with various food when hung from a sturdy hook etc like VJ described, with
no fan etc in room. You already have a web site.
If you refuse to settle these easy to answer, straight forward questions, then I will regard you a LIAR. That is not
abusing you.
Pendulum behaving di erently with di erent food is impossible under science (when you don’t involve your hand
to hold it). You say, you proved existing science wrong?, ne, post the few minutes of that easy test and we will see
what is wrong with your test.
If you can’t, it means you are yet another empty head with nothing but bravado.
Ashok
@NT you go on abusing to prove your right. First atleast stop abusing. It only shows your short temper…I can see
how shallow your scienti c knowledge is ..with such a short temper…
If I am not convinced I will do it. For me it works.. I have detailed the procedure earlier. Now what you want me
baby feed you…with all proofs…which anyway you will not agree…and say it’s fake..
You are the one who is not convinced. You prove it wrong with your video.
For me it works.
You want the proof, you do it the way i told you_ Genuine Rudarksh, Energized with mantra etc…still not convinced
do it with 100 folks who say it’s fake.
Then share the video…

Read properly. I can’t keep mentioning, as you guys go on crowing the same thing… Follow the procedure, I have
shared.
You Show us the video, no need for audio, no need for your face in video.
I will evaluate and say where you went wrong or admit if you do the video correctly..else it means your just one
heavy head with nothing but just plain theory…zero rst hand practical experience….
This is only for Rudarksh..debate…
For other topics I have told you can come to Isha, I will come, you prove it fake…
You want theories, videos, and use others proofs. For once do something by yourself for science that you so brag
about….
NT
So you chickened out but you don’t want to admit defeat that you never tested any science practically and you
know that rudraksha won’t react to food like Jaggu assures you it would.
Nityananda says he can levitate people by using his yogic powers. Naturally, journalists demanded that he prove it.
He of course failed on TV, but just like you, he started arguing that he did not fail.
If you say, you watched a scienti cally impossible thing, it is your job to prove it, why is it mine? You may have been
fooled once, but at this point you are just lying bare faced to save face, which does not work, because here no one
will believe you and you just look stubborn and childish.
End of the day, you don’t know what proof is. If you go to Nityananda’s stage, all his followers will assure you they
can feel his powers lifting them, just like all ISHA guys will assure you that mahasamadhi is true. You can get 10
crore people to say it, but it still does not become proof.
Testing is something completely di erent and you are too under-educated to understand that. You think personal
stories are proof. That is the rst thing you learn about science. You don’t know even that.
Also Sattvik, Rajasik and Tamasic are Ayurveda categories, not scienti c. Jaggu and Nityananda believe them
because they don’t understand food science (they don’t understand any science of any kind) and neither do you.
NT
Nithyananda’s new Abracadabra: Unsuccessfully trying to make people levitate
https://www.balendu.net/english/fake/swami-ji-writes-about-nithyananda-who-still-tries-to-attract-new-followers-
after-his-sex-scandal-in-march-2010-read-what-he-is-doing-now/
Additionally 1 year guaranteed deadline will be up for Nityananda to make Cows and Bulls talk in perfect Sanskrit
and Tamil in exactly one week.
Miracle of miracles. In 1 week the world will be stunned or Nityananda is just another stunted mind.
Ashok
@NT I can see who is chickening out.
I am giving you chance to prove me wrong, so much for me saving myself.
Do you even understand basic english??
I have shared the steps to test Rudarksh.
You make a video, share it.
I will evaluate and admit if you are right.
As you said about our under education.. right..so you are the one with the better science nesse..
Please prove me wrong..make a video..or go about crowing….you are right…Eureka…
NT
Ashok, google “burden of proof”. Having to explain that is why you are called under educated. Not understanding
that when it is mentioned in every pseudoscience forum and even after having it already spelt out for you (“you
watched a scienti cally impossible thing, it is your job to prove it, why is it mine?”) is you not understanding basic
english.
NT
Vivekananda did not die from mahasamadhi. He died of stroke as per autopsy. He always had bad health.
The real yogic tradition is followers of meditation teachers invent a supernatural death for their master’s natural
death as a coping mechanism. The teachers are not usually trying to die with dignity. It is the followers who try to
invent super-dignity and legends.
The extreme example is Ashutosh Maharaj
https://thoughtcatalog.com/zaron-burnett-iii/2014/05/dont-say-that-our-gurus-not-dead-hes-just-meditating/
He followers can’t face reality that he died and put his body in a refrigerator. Even when his body was putrefying
and stinking, they would not admit and police had to be involved.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-26556395
“Eventually, some 450 policemen entered his religious centre on the outskirts of the city and took away his
decomposing body for cremation in the face of erce protests by the devotees.”
Meditation clouds the mind. You want to see the world clearly? Face reality. No one ever is going to turn to pure
light in front of press cameras and skeptics.
I don’t think it was coping mechanism for Jaggu though since he burned the body in a hurry.
VJ
@Ashok, you are not in talking terms. You are too defensive. You are strange. Yes I am short tempered, I do not
know about NT. I can tolerate your English errors without loosing my calm but what you are ghting for and
ghting with is ridiculous! I wish you know it and be able to laugh at yourself along with me!
You are saying you know how shallow is someone’s scienti c knowledge! Do you know what do you actually mean
by scienti c? I am sure you don’t.
I suggest you a book which you don’t need to read… The Art Of Thinking Clearly.
All the best.
Ashok
Ok @NT @VJ you share one video where YOU GUYS PROVE RUDARKSH experiment is fake. Where you have done
the experiment….
I will evaluate and tell what is wrong.
I will tell where is the mistake and what needs to be done properly.
First you guys do the experiment properly and then quote science theories and sources.
I can also prove these things are fake.
Point is you need take the extra step and do and show it is wrong… not always do critical reviews, quote science….
Anyone can do that…
Yes rst you put some e ort from your end…simply don’t quote things and say you are right..
I repeat even I can prove Rudarksh is fake.. don’t you get…it…you guys rst do the experiment properly…
I am not at all being defensive..I am giving all the opportunity for you guys to prove me wrong…
All the best to you guys…as well..
NT
Let’s forget about the 31 diseases that Vivekananda had and that he was a heavy smoker which is a major risk
factor for stroke.
https://www.deccanherald.com/content/303522/vivekananda-su ered-31-ailments.html
Instead, let’s holy label his stroke, “well-documented mahasamadhi”. Vivekananda wanted to live for 100 years until
he found out about his illnesses and knew he would not last until 40. He didn’t want to die. He died because there
was no real medicine then, only junk medicine like Ayurveda, Sidha, Homeopathy and old western medicine.
And he was probably eating a very “satvik diet”. Satvik diet didn’t save him from any of the 31 diseases. You can’t
wish away bad genes. When he had advanced diabetes, he needed insulin injections, not satviik diet, but insulin
injections weren’t invented yet.
And all the said self-control from meditation didn’t help him that much from quitting smoking because nicotine is
an addiction.
VJ, nice book, looks good from table of contents. I like Chapter 4 title in that book
Chapter 4: If Fifty Million People Say Something Foolish, It is Still Foolish: Social Proof
That is something Ashok should read. Perfect title for him. Every time Ashok parrots Come to ISHA and ask, Come
to ISHA and ask, he is in fact seeking validation of his herd, even though he denies belonging to this herd. He
doesn’t accept Einstein, but his Herd is gospel. If they say it is true, it must be true for him.
Sr Sri Herd will of course say in chorus, Sudarshankriya is wonderful (also see their crazy eclipse scaring dumb
“doctors” above). Nityananda Herd will guarantee you they are going to levitate soon through meditation. And Jaggi
Herd will say Mahasamadhi is absolutely real (Viji coverup).
But when you have a Herd that thinks the shadow of the earth on the moon is poisonous back on earth, who cares
what their opinion is on anything?, however many they may be.
Apoorva
Ashok, please describe your understanding of the phrase ‘scienti c method’.
Also the phrase ‘Anecdotal evidence’.
I see you don’t have issue with typing long paragraphs so, please enlighten us with above two things.
Ashok
I already told even I can prove Vivekananda Mahasamadhi, Sadhguru, Isha foundation as fake.
You have take the extra step, go there, get in the eld and get rst hand experience if it’s fake…
NT
Ashok, why do you think Apoorva is telling you to learn about Anecdotal Evidence? That is what you call “ rst hand
experience”. “ rst hand experience” does not tell you if it is fake or not. It mostly con rms your beliefs. It is what
drowns you in fake beliefs.
You need education to interpret experience, which you now lack. “ rst hand experience” tells you eclipse is poison.
“ rst hand experience” tells you that the tingle in the spine you feel is yogic/pranic etc force. “ rst hand experience”
is exactly what lled your mind with crap.
That is why you should learn about scienti c vs. anecdotal evidence. You should learn about common biases like
the Herd/Social bias you have. Read that book that VJ mentioned. He is being a lot more of a guru than your Jaggu,
Sri Sri and Nityananda gang combined. You probably have every bias mentioned in that book.
NT
Ashok, is the earth spherical or at? What does your “ rst hand experience” tell you?
Is earth stationary? What does your “ rst hand experience” tell you?
Is sun moving around earth? What does your “ rst hand experience” tell you?
Ashok
@NT Don’t compare other scienti c ndings. This topic cannot be judged the same way earth is spherical or at.
Shall I tell you some thing earth is neither sphere, nor at. First read properly, slowly, then you can judge or joke….
What you are seeing is the overall shape.

If you draw outline of the earth, like how your draw or Chalk a human body during post mortem, you will know
what I mean.
Say I outline the mountains, oceans, there are deep trenches as well, forest, canopies, craters etc. So how can earth
be spherical. Spherical shape means earth should be perfectly round like Billiards ball, round marbles get it…but
earth has mountains, oceans, forest, etc you are ignoring this…while considering shape of the earth..
Overall looks spherical from a far distance but if you sketch it with all the things I said or draw outline along the
surface of the earth or MAP along the surface of the earth..it’s shapeless. Eg: Maps of all countries, same draw the
earth, even in 3Dif you draw with all its items I shared, you will get a shapeless earth..
It is from a far distance it’s spherical, and for the limited human mind to make sense, yes it’s spherical.
Now don’t go on giving wisecracks..BLA..BLA…
Try drawing the exact shape outlining the earth. Get it..no you won’t, you will mock and go by established existing
scienti c proofs and satellite images.
If you do not understand this..it’s your problem…but if samething few scientists publish in a paper, give satellite
images you will agree..i repeat satellite images give a distance image…you already xed in mind your way is right
way of judging things… can’t help it…
I repeat i told even I can prove Vivekananda Mahasamadhi, Sadhguru, Isha foundation as fake.
I can prove earth is shapeless if you draw the outline of the earth or spherical with existing scienti c proofs,
satellite images.
Question is what yardstick you are using in proving. You want use what you think is perfect which is not perfect for
me.
In fact science itself keeps evolving.
I repeat like many times since you are not getting it, You have take to the extra step, go there, get in the eld and
get rst hand experience, see if it’s fake…in this case
NT
Excellent logic ….. if it was coming from class II kid, not from a 30 something.
Earth is “shapeless” because it is not a perfect sphere? Are you stoned? This is stoner logic.
The lines and circles you drew with a ruler and circular weren’t perfect lines and circles either. They were full of
bumps. There is no perfect geometry in real world.
“science itself keeps evolving”
Do you know how many people repeated that crap in this page? Of course it is. It does not have mentally stunted
reasoning of Jaggu. It keep growing because it is living knowledge.
Jaggu is mentally retarded because he think all old superstitions came from meditation (without any proof for that
also), so he thinks they are perfect knowledge. No matter how much you explain that every thing he says is dumb
crap, he will stubbornly repeat his old myths. He has the intelligence of a rock. His herd follows because that is
what herds do.
“get rst hand experience”
OK, ISHA herder, let’s see how much independent thinking you have. Name one dozen things you disagree with
Jaggu about the world. Let’s see if you are a parrot or not. I will repeat this question.
Ashok
@NT you take the extra step, I will come with you to prove its fake or true. You want everything to be spoon fed.
Whatever herd, cattle, go ahead… crowing…
Ashok
Infact, read this and SURELY YOU WILL HAVE NO DOUBTS SADHGURU IS FAKE.
All links will take 6 hours atleast to read.
In fact hire a lawyer, you can even legally sue him. Or just print the stu out. File a PIL, just a few responsible,
retired judges, few journalists, educated folks, activists, couple of honest IAS o cers.
I am sure our country has enough concerned educated well connected and scienti c tempered folks who can prove
him fake just like that.
Just need a bit of planming, few people coming together, understanding how legal system works. With a bit of
smart work, Surely he can’t escape all the accusations against him.
Even powerful people, politicians have been brought to light in this country. Please now don’t give example of Ram
Rahim, Nitya Nanda etc and how they escape clutches of law as well…
There are cases where corrupt powerful folks have been punished as well.
Anyway read the posts that proves he is fake –
This post is especially intended for those teens and for folks in their 30s who get carried away by Sadhguru, his
mesmerizing voice and HIS logical talks..
https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/Zaysen2011/sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev-his-enlightenment-and-isha-cult-empire-
as-it-is
Part 1, cont’d…(unable to paste all links, so sharing in parts)
Ashok
The charlatan and his band of minions – Jagadeesh alias Jakki alias Sadhguru
http://ilavaluthy.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-charlatan-and-his-band-of-minions.html?m=1
Nellai Shanmugam was ardent follower of Sadhguru from 2003 to 2014. He did everything, even had been regularly
to Isha…and nally he realized the whole thing…
This is his criticism, it has more in depth links to speci c details on his teachings…
https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/why-do-i-criticize-sadhguru-jaggi-vasudev/amp/
Part 2, cont’d, unable to paste all links, so sharing in parts
Ashok
Part 3 of 3.
The previous link is Shanmugam’s journey on how he entered spirituality and his experience with Sadhguru…
I have read the whole thing…
Jaggi is a scam artist: Do your homework
http://sadhguruculteducation.blogspot.com/2017/04/jaggi-is-scam-artist-do-your-homework.html?m=1
The below blog is the best of the lot.

Not even negative about Sadhguru.
It SIMPLY shows a photo where Jaggi actually was connected with one yoga guru Rishi Prabhakar before he became
Sadhguru..
But later Sadhguru ditched him but modi ed his yoga techniques and o course became the man he is today…
Both their teachings clearly show similarities and something shy..
Clearly Sadhguru was close to Rishi Prabhakar as can be judged from the group photograph. Also the name tag on
him indicates that this picture was taken during a course (my anonymous source says that this picture was taken
during Rishi Prabhakar’s rst teacher training program and Sadhguru was in that batch). At the minimum, this
picture proves that Sadhguru was involved with Rishi Prabhakar and the fact is that he does not speak about it now.
Not even a mention!
It is said that Sadhguru had some di erences with Rishi Prabhakar and thus split from him. Earlier, he was indeed
working for Rishi Prabhakar in Coimbatore per the confession of an ex-Isha inmate –
https://ksmphanindra.wordpress.com/2017/12/10/proof-for-sadhgurus-rishi-prabhakar-connection/amp/
I have read all this. It doesn’t even require intelligence to PROVE WITHOUT DOUBT SADHGURU is fake.
This critical views were the rst thing I read about Sadhguru for years..
I for one don’t follow any Sadhguru or even agree with science.
I nally decide what is best thing for me.

It’s not being a class 2 kid or being a Einstein brain or agree with something or someone just because they are
smart, superior or say they are right.
I am damn concerned about my life, my thoughts and what I know.
I am really sel sh and will never put my life, energy, e ort for anyone else in the name of Spiritual bliss or Factual
Science…this much common sense I have.
I will only do what is best for me..nor for me to be spirituality drugged or to feel that I am scienti cally smart…
I took the extra step..I still Say I damn care if they are proven fake or called as fraud..I will admit if I am proven
wrong directly in front of me. Not you crowing you are right because facts, science said so…
Facts, Science is only based on that particular time, place and experience.
Moon is drifting from earth, in few thousand years, earth’s gravity pull will change. So today’s gravity will not be the
same as after few thousand years..
You can’t see the reasons, what I can see as right..
I can see the reasons what you say is right..but you crow you are right 100% and other side is wrong..
Anyway Sadhguru is fake proven…what do you say now..
But you won’t agree with proofs where I shared Rebirth, Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION is right..nor come directly
to prove it as fake..
Class 2 kids are better atleast they know they do not know things if you ask them questions.. they will say I do not
know…but Einstein brains think they know all and they know better than others..and that is the problem..
I know again you will take two-two lines from my comments and crow your smartostupidity….instead of simply
coming directly and prove it as fake….so much for you thinking you are smart…
You simply can prove me wrong by coming directly ..but you just want be a science bookworm calling me parrot…
NT
Ashok, Parrots gonna parrot.
Ashok
@ NT crows gonna crowing..
NT
OK, that is quite an improvement. I didn’t see these posts when I made the last post.
I still don’t agree with you on Rebirth, Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION or that ISHA is where anyone gures these
things.
But as I said before, I have no interest in debating your plain religious views, just fake gurus. They are your beliefs,
keep them.
Ashok
OK, surprising that is quite a downstairs for you. But I expected this when I started the debate itself.
I still don’t agree with you on Rebirth, Mahasamadhi, CONSECRATION is FAKE.
But as I said before, I too have no interest in debating in the plain science theories, or just quoting sources. They
are right in people’s agreement who are like you, you keep them.
Ashok
You don’t even have to prove Nithyananda as fake.
Yes because before you and me, many intelligent species have already proved he is fake..
BTW .see the.proofs…
Manifest three Nithyananda superpowers right now (for free)..
How to achieve three amazing powers of the one and only Swami Nithyananda, Living Avatar of
superawesomeness. Achieve your inner awakening right now, free of charge.
Here’s the link –
https://youtu.be/bMjkvx9TaUM
Third eye, Blind reading demonstration to rajiv malhotra – the original miracle video
https://youtu.be/J-ToDRl5BB0
Part 1
Ashok
Exposing “Midbrain activation” Scam: Dr.Narendra Nayak
https://youtu.be/V6dDfGqnZQM
Kerala Freethinkers Forum – kftf
Many fraudulent companies have sprung up in various parts of India, claiming that they can “increase the brain
power” of children , or make them “geniuses” through a ‘course’ in which they would “activate the midbrain ” of
children. The proof of children’s midbrain being “activated’, they claim, is their ability to see when wearing
blindfolds. Gullible parents who fall for this propaganda end up paying amounts as high as Rs.25000 per child!
Dr. Narendra Nayak , President of FIRA ( Federation of Indian Rationalist associations) has been campaigning
against this scam for some time now. On a public demonstration held at Kozhikode ( Calicut), Kerala on 19th April
2015 , he convincingly demonstrated that the ‘blindfolded reading’ is just a trick that can be taught to children in no
time, and this has nothing to do with “midbrain activation”.
Actually it’s not even peeping. They have wireless earphones in the eye pads. Just look at the eye pads, they look so
big, heavily padded. Easily wireless earphones are attached in that. They are given instructions in the eye pads..
Part 2
VJ
@Ashok, I have done inner engineering program. I have attended Jagdish live 5-6 times. I have been at Isha in
Coimbatore and stayed for 4 days. I didn’t count but i established communication with many there and during the
gatherings what they call satsang with jagdish vasudev.
I of course remember many of people’s views if not all. Fact is all are liars there, innocently or cunningly; deeply or
shallow, may be I was a liar then, I am not sure. I am not sure because I don’t remember claiming any thing I was
not sure then but I believed many things then, rebirth one of them. I read all books of Brian L. Weiss and it
reinforced by beliefs. I saw many people crying in front of me and I felt jealous that they are experiencing
something which I am not. I felt I am not receptive( the very term Jagdish coined). I kept on sitting in dhyanaliga for
hours and minute trying all techniques and trying dropping all techniques, sometimes with anxiety and sometimes
without, nothing happened. I purchased rudrakshas from Isha as well, they went still if hung line a pendulum
irrespective of what is there beneath them. I however, kept wearing them for months with holy imaginations. I took
bath in the Kund there and hugged the so called solidi ed mercury linga there, there are no rst hand sensations.
About the place, I only say that it is a soothing architecture, row and zero maintenance.
In short I would say, your demand of interviewing 100 people is kind of vague. I will not do that, whatever you say.
Now the pendulum case, you are simply saying Ashok that principle of conservation of energy is wrong. A rudraksh
will anyhow and every how oscillate eternally if there is something beneath it, water or sand as well. You can
produce electricity by it. One can hung tons of rudraksh and hang them over a lake! So if you are saying you did the
experiment and it is eternally oscillating, you are a liar and it is not something you are unaware of.
Ashok
Part 3- But is it really possible. Third eye, blind fold reading..
Now don’t crack wise cracks how do I know? If you come I can show rst hand show folks who can read book
without opening it and you can verify…any language
Don’t ask video conference bla..bla…or ask something..or some other way to show while you sit at the same place..
Simple you come, I will show.. you bring any books of your choice..you will know if it’s fake or true..
Swami Vivekananda was staying in Germany as a guest of great philosopher Paul Duschen. During his stay, Paul
mentioned to the Swami that he has been trying to read a German book for the last fteen days but was unable to
comprehend it. Hearing this, Swami borrowed the book from Paul and within 60 minutes returned it saying “I have
read it”. Needless to say, Paul was surprised. “Really?” he seems to have asked. To which Swamiji has replied “Yes.
Not only have I read it, but also comprehended thoroughly”. An incredulous Paul asked some questions from the
book Swami not only answered his questions but also cited the relevant sentences in German.
https://youtu.be/ywgqGz46WXo
Yes he had photographic memory. So you can say he just took photo of the book in his mind and vomitted the lines
when questioned…or give your usual Smartometer answers… by googling..like how I already proved Sadhguru,
Nitya, third eye is fake.
I know Sadhguru is saying..so you will again say third eye is fake…or say it’s not conclusive…or share contradicting
proofs as usual..from net..
There are many videos on third eye I can share..so it’s not about Sadhguru saying, so it’s fake..in fact I have already
shared third eye is fake.but that is not the way to prove..it’s not about proving in this case…it’s do you know..
But in reality it is possible..
Any person who goes through these proofs will say it’s fake..
But if you really want to KNOW, IF ITS FAKE…you have to directly, go enquire and nd if it’s true…now don’t say you
need time machine.coz Vivekananda died.BLA..bla..I am saying you can go and verify..if third eye is true or fake…
Seeing the proofs, fake people,

And this is what I meant by 99% is fake…that is why impossible for you to understand about third eye,
CONSECRATION, Mahasamadhi, Rebirth, Rudarksh etc..
Its not about proving fake or true by reading, seeing scienti c results etc…
It’s about knowing yourself if it’s fake or true…this method is Superior to what you read, quote, give references….
****use your logic..which is superior..always knowing by Yourself is best way of proving things…**** It’s Superior
way compared to quoting what science says
o course what you know can be wrong or you din’t understand correctly…or give many reasons and you can divert
the topic..
But if what you know is correct, then even scienti c proof is inferior to what you know…
And now don’t take two-two lines and do critical analysis and divert the topic..this topic is about knowing by
Yourself….not proving, Im or you are wrong..
**No scienti c experience, explanation, proof is superior compared to knowing by Yourself.***
Ashok
@VJ I already shared Sadhguru is fake, at same time I have shared reason why it’s true on topics of Rebirth, etc
In fact I shared about KSM Phanindra and Nellai Shanmugam (2003-2014) who did everything, followed Sadhguru,
been at Isha and overall spent many years and then decided he and Isha was fake.
I also know in many other Ashrams, not only Isha where best of Sanyasis, left spirituality after 10 years, and went
back to job, family. Worse some became useless, depressed and good for neither Spiritual life nor could go back to
normal life..
So don’t judge by others experiences…or because you didn’t get any experience..hang in there..it’s just matter of
time..
At same time, in many Ashrams, and Isha today many good for nothing drug addicts, failures, useless young people
rejected by their own family have become world touring yoga teachers, got good Spiritual sadhanas, at Isha those
useless chaps have become Sadhguru’s goto men, heading high posts in the Ashram’s operations, some have even
met their spiritual soul mates.
They work, but no pressure, tension like usual o ce.
They met their life mates, love their partners but are not all possessive or insecure about their partners. Yes they
enjoy life as well..best part spirituality, Spiritual activities binds them..together..not the usual you do this home
chore..I do that home chore…integrity among partners is guaranteed because of spiritual base…
Overall these folks are in a position that even if they die this second, nobody around them is a ected. Not even the
partner. The spiritual environment is like that. It instills that clarity from the start.
Usually, In family if one partner dies, its a huge loss but here the hurt is there but the spiritual base gives enough
clarity and least impact and life goes on.
I not saying everyone join Ashrams. This is what I saw. I am sorry you met with bad fake experience…I too saw
many of them..but..I explored other side as well..
so now coming to the point, please atleast stop accusing that other side is lying..like you have reasons to say it’s
fake, I have shared reasons it’s true…which you don’t agree..you forget that even I don’t agree you are right..so you
are also liar..is it..then..pls let’s not debate because we are liars…
Hmm..your experience, no denying. You are 100% right. In fact out of scores of people who goto Isha, or any
Ashram this is what MOST they say. It’s all fake..hogwash, gimmick..
Finally they realize that logic, science and common sense is best way and in fact live a happy life without spirituality
or Isha or other voodoo craps..
I will keep it simple.
I will come to Isha.
I will show you people in deep meditative states for days without food, water, no physical movement, where just
one small sound they can quit their body. This is risky..but rest assure you will be shown such meditative states
where a fully normal young healthy person is in such a state that one small sound, he can quit his body..this can be
shown to you..
Now you can say comatose stories, other proofs, even Schumacher is motionless bla..bla…
Sadhguru himself has told in YouTube, about HEALTHY YOUNG folks exist in Ashram, I repeat they can quit body at
will…
There are people who will use third eye and without reading books, can tell what is in the book..if not books can
predict things about you….
Dhyanalinga, Linga Bhairavi, Inner Engineering, Shambhavi Mahamudra did nothing to you hmm..sad.
So do you do Spiritual sadhana for things to happen is it… that is very substandard reason.
I did Spiritual sadhana just to nd if its true or fake…that too after 4 years of keeping tab, judging is Sadhguru or
Isha true…
But ideally one should do sadhana for nothing to happen. Infact before getting into all these, from 2014 to 2018, 4
years I never went to Isha or goto their programs. Only after 4 years I attended one inner engineering.
Now also I don’t follow Sadhguru or look up to him, been to ISHA just once for 11 days, came back as I fell ill…these
are what I saw, ENQUIRED there..
Just because I share this detailed information, i repeat I am Not associated with any Spiritual entity..if you want
legally also you can verify..I am not associated with any damn guru or Ashram…..
Just like you folks share in depth science reference I too have done the same.. don’t assume things…
I have a happy life..in the same society where we all live..
Yes don’t go by usual meaning of nothing… happen to you..
I hope I don’t have to say universe is only 4% physical matter like stars, comets, planets etc, rest 96% is empty
space. Do you get power of nothing… Rough numbers but matter is universe is almost empty with just minute
physical matter..
Only if a room is empty can you enter it, paint it, keep furniture, stay in room.
If room is already full like a block of brick. What can you keep inside the room..this is power of nothing…yes people
can mock at this…laugh…
So if nothing happened to you, then you should reach a state of equanimity, where you see, do things just the way
they are to be done, be neutral, ATLEAST ok I want to nd if its true or fake…it’s hard to remove the prejudice,
preassumption..but at least be curious..yes..just curious and do sadhana, thinking let’s see where it goes…
But tell me if nothing happened isnt it good. Yes, very fact that nothing happened to you is best possibility.
Miracles, Spiritual experiences, spine shivering, meta physical experiences are not the goal of a spiritual seeker..
Point is where you able to TRANSCEND yourself and connect with the the bliss body, the Atma, Soul, or scienti cally
how do we say- Subconscious mind. If no, then keep trying. You know the power of Subconscious mind right.
Now please don’t divert the topic.. Subconscious mind was easy term for you to relate to…
But this is wrong way to experience spirituality because now you will want to experience it, the way I told..
Still we can make you experience things, come to Isha. We will enquire, meet people. Find if fake???
You don’t want to come – read below but no guarantee, it will help…
From what you say:
Are you doing Shambhavi Mahamudra everyday?
Have you regularly attended practice correction sessions and are reasonably sure you are doing it correctly?
First 48 days when you learnt Shambhavi Mahamudra, did you do it twice without fail?
Did you do it after bath, did you practice with 4 hours gap of food, 2 hours gap of snacks, 1hour gap if you had
water, milk, beverage…
Did you do it at the Twilight timings when there is transition in nature from dawn to morning, morning to noon,
evening to sunset. Like 3:30 am to 6:30 am.
During 11:45am to 1 pm.
Before sunset, around 5.30 pm to 6.15 pm
These are rough timings.
Point is you have to do during Twilight moments for maximum impact. There is huge ux in nature during this time.
Night is not preferred as it is purely for people only on Spiritual path and no family, career etc.
Till 48 days, twice a day of practice, then are you doing it everyday once.. important thing is food, snacks, water..if
you had them..you should give 4 hrs, 2hrs, 1hr break based on what you had…
In fact of all the methods Kriya yoga (any), not only Shambhavi Mahamudra, a kriya yoga form; Kriya yoga is the
easiest, fastest way to experience spirituality growth.
Did you speak to Isha coordinators that you are going nowhere with your Sadhana?
Did you follow up and were you really keen, hungry to nd why your Sadhana is going nowhere or did you just
dropped after meeting fake Spiritual people at Isha, got disappointed and seeing zero experience from
Dhyanalinga, hugging mercury linga etc, after few months?
Point is did you exhaust all your options before coming to conclusion that this crap..
Just 48 days of not only Shambhavi Mahamudra, just about anything, any action like waking up, reading, learning,
doing anything at same time as a practice it will be imprinted in your mind.
Automatically changes will happen. But the rst 48 days you should do with proper timings and without miss. Any
habit..it will bring changes in you..forget Kriya Yoga or Shambhavi..you have to do it 48 days must..
So if usual activities will only show impact in your life after 48 days means, Kriya yoga considered to be easiest,
fastest way to transform will surely work..
Now coming to kriya, So if you did Shambhavi Mahamudra, and still doing it, then your physical health, mind,
energy level, sleep, stress surely would have improved.
It’s proven. Even people with high thyroid have been cured in 3 months.
So if nothing happens with anyone who does Shambhavi Mahamudra, they will surely be healthy in body, feel calm
in mind, have high energy levels, sleep better, but sleep less, react less to stress. This is guaranteed…with
Shambhavi Mahamudra..it’s proven..Google many medical reports are there. You can argue reports are paid by
Isha only….
You can argue any yoga, physical act or sports can do this. Yes please do them. Nobody forcing you to choose Kriya
yoga…it happens..you din’t like Shambhavi or Kriya yoga or spirituality is boring..not everyone has to favour yoga
nor other methods etc are bad..
For me if you have great career and busy and enjoy 24 hours, it is spirituality…
Anything that you gives you opportunity to live life to fullest is spirituality..it can be your pet dog, wife, anything,
anyone etc..
You don’t need any guru, spirituality or Kriya.. methods are plenty be it Spiritual or scienti c….but we can’t
guarantee what happens in career, wife -(no comments), dogs- even they have to be trained to not bite you…Else
you will get love with bites..bad joke..excuse me..
Spirituality ensures the core, yes not even your name, not even your image of yourself, not your clothes, not your
body, not your organs, not your blood, not your nerves, not even the conscious but the life is blissed always.
Yes even conscious is not you. Person in coma is unconscious but still alive…right..only the “Life” is you..Ether, Soul,
Spirit, say sub conscious whatever you call…
It’s like you are thrown on the road suddenly, no parents, no family, no money, no loved ones, no home, no money,
no next meal, no clothes..but you are still blissed out..this is level spirituality helps to be..or you can follow
something else…to be blissed out..
Little hard on you. Let me explain. Any baby you see, most of them are playful. Why aren’t babies, kids of 2-3 years
most of them not boring, lifeless, or serious…they are all bubbly naughty..this is nature of life…The LIFE INSIDE is a
bliss body.
You can give explanation as survival instinct bla.. bla..even new borne animals, jump around as soon as they are
born or .divert the topic..point is the result it’s feeling happy..
If you are in contact with this bliss either by spiritual practices or through outer means like knowledge, talent,
money, wife, family etc…you will be happy.
You can be happy if you are having huge knowledge right..like this outer means can also make you happy..
Spiritual practices cannot be taken away from you but all the others including your clothes can be taken away…
Still skeptical..about mysticism…
Wear one face Rudarksh.
I know you wore Rudarksh,

As I said simple way to prove.
Just wear one face genuine certi ed Rudarksh energized, see what happens to you. You will face issues with all
people around you, want to be alone..in just few weeks..the is guaranteed. You will not be able to live in any
relationship..just like to be lonely…
Or 2.
Else as I said come to Isha. There whatever I said if not proven to you, I will admit I am wrong…else you can go on
commenting..
Or
3. Do the practice of Shambhavi Mahamudra properly without fail..worst case spiritually you won’t experience but I
myself will any day trade spirituality for a healthy body, mind, less stress, better sleep, high energy..what I mean is
may be your Sadhana is giving you a normal life…it’s any day better to have a normal life then to have ups and
downs right..think…downs can really be dangerous…just saying…normal life looks better option..you can debate…
I damn care about spirituality, rst my food, my health, mind, family, then I will think about spirituality….meaning I
am blissed out with my normal life..I don’t need to tread Spiritual path speci cally.. but yes all the things in my
normal life can be taken in one second..this is where spirituality stands..it can’t be snatched…
It’s like this, eat chicken, mutton, or vegetarian or just fruits, raw veggies your entire life. All have their
consequences…its your choice..
But spirituality ensures you always move to next level or evolve as higher being…
Because other routes build karma, give results based on karma.
Spirituality, Sadhana works reverse.. BREAKS your karmic build up….yes you do wrong Sadhana, karma can build
but point is considering you will do Sadhana rightly most of the times, mostly karma is broken ..while in other paths
karma only piles up….
So if you din’t get experience it’s good as well but..if you come, you can meet folks, nd out if what I am saying is
true or fake…but yes feel sad for your experience.. hope you realize soon…ignore the fake people…there are
equally genuine Spiritual folks…but I consider you GENUINELY explored spirituality, told you went to Isha but found
zero results….so I shared all this….
Else what I shared you can laugh it o ..divert, contradict..
Point is all other routes including science will only make sense, carry weight if there atleast other person.
If there is everything on this earth as it is and just you….yes if you are the only person..no other human form at
all..chances are you will feel lifeless…not blissed out…this is where Spiritual practice comes in or is a better option
to science..think…
Your knowledge, your ethics, your money, your talent, you might be most talented stock trader, famous scientist, in
fact you don’t need o ce..but no use who the hell you are if you are the only human on earth..
But spiritual practice you don’t need any one..you will feel blissed out…with nothing but just doing sadhana..o
course you can debate you don’t need Spiritual practice as well. If you are in that level already good..
O course you can debate, it doesn’t matter whether you are sad or blissed as you are only person..
Ya but given a choice unless it’s a psycho, it’s better choice to be happy..even if you are alone..you can debate but
just think… common sense..
It’s better choice to be happy with no external support.
This is what spirituality ensures…you will be in Best space within yourself even if worse is happening to you…
Finally imagine, you are just one person on earth..there will never be another human life on earth….now
think..ponder on this..Science or Spirituality nothing matters.
No morals, you can’t even lie..no other person…get it..
Science has its own place like everything..no use of science if there is no other human life on earth and same with
spirituality…So now which is superior..both Science and Spirituality are useless..neither Sadhguru nor Einstein is
required..
So keep science in its place and spirituality in its place…if you still think it’s not your cup of tea..good.
Please don’t let few lines a ect your thinking. Read fully…
VJ
@Ashok. if I nd 1000 people whom I nd fake in reading blindfolded, there can still be a possibility of someone
popping out and claiming the same.
Secondly, saying that terrainian or surface aspects will prevent earth or any object from becoming pure geometrical
shape is so kiddish. Even the straight line is not possible if seen in depth as NT said. But that doesn’t mean that all
geometry is crap. There is a thing called least count. When we say the population of India in particular year is this,
we take for example 1 crore as lease count for general understanding. Surface undulations of earth are any day
incapable of proving that its a at or square or not spherical. NT didn’t say its an absolute sphere.
The foolish way you are defending your personal whim, you are a mere entertainment for me!
Keep it on please.
Ashok
@VJ I have already shared third eye as fake. You took the bait. You decided it’s fake before hand only.
You din’t even bother to see why it’s true or fake with a neutral mind set? So much for science folks being objective.
You already are pre xed and supporting your answers with science proofs favouring your preferences.
Don’t write things which I didn’t mention. I have not told test 1000 people for third eye. Read Properly.
Straight line, absolute sphere…you guys rst asked what is shape of earth – at or sphere to me.
In response to that speci c question I said earth is shapeless if you sketch it’s outline with all its terrains like you do
for a map or human body.
You missed the context and the question to which it was answered.
Do not take response of a particular question and then use it to prove as wrong in other situation.
In fact now you only are agreeing to what I say there is no shape to earth. Just that you are vomitting from science
and telling in di erent words.
Sad I thought you were earnest in your experience about Spirituality but it is evident that you were faking. Abusing
other side as foolish, won’t make you right. I am sorry but you are not t to be even an entertainment for me nor
anything else to me.
As your wish..keeping it on!
NT
Ashok, you have verbal diarrhea. People say meditation improves concentration. But I only see people who have
become scatter brained, including people who insist they can concentrate better. You keep going round and round,
repeating mostly the same things. Your teacher never taught you how to write concisely, cutting out junk? No one
will reply to all that verbal diarrhea, just some points that are particularly bad.
You can keep repeating, come, I will prove. No one is going to come. I believe you that there may be people who
can meditate for a couple of days on a fast. What does that prove?
Don’t keep playing that canard that 99% are fake but we are missing the real 1%. Find your most advanced,
miraculous meditators and bring them to rationalists. Don’t challenge them to come to you. You bear the expenses.
If you succeed, the world will change. But I can guarantee that will never happen because that your 1% is still a
gimmick. It is always 100% fantasy. You are only able to gure out 99% are fake because you don’t know that much
science. Rationalists have seen a lot of fakers and will expose the rest of the 1% too.
Show a single person who can read through a blind fold in front of Narendra Nayak etc, not people like Rajiv
Malhotra.
Taken bait? Isn’t that what Isha calling is?
Earth is at or sphere to you? Skteching is context? No you crazy person, you are just being childish or dumb. No
sane person will describe earth as shapeless or at. Your logic is idiotic. Anyone can see that.
Of course people will pick apart your dumb statements. So don’t say dumb things. Instead you are trying to set silly
rules that this is not allowed.
“Why aren’t babies, kids of 2-3 years most of them not boring, lifeless, or serious…they are all bubbly naughty..this
is nature of life…The LIFE INSIDE is a bliss body.”
So are puppies compared to old dogs. That is normal aging process. Nothing at all to do with karma etc. Reality is
serious. Trying to go back to being a blissfully naive baby is nothing great. That is why I said, don’t try to escape the
real world or adulthood.
You are not a meditation mind. You are just a fantasy mind. And you don’t understand science minimally.
karma, sadhana, consecration are your religious beliefs. Keep them if you like, but you cannot prove them as real,
because they are not. That is why they are called religious beliefs to start with.
Ashok
@NT here we go again, you got attitude diarrhea.
Abusing behind pretext of science and complicate things is what you are doing.
You didn’t even listen to your teacher, just mugged the books, and vomitting stu and became a science mentalist.
Keep it simple, why unnecessarily complicate.
Knowing by Yourself is better than having loads of science proofs and rationals supporting you. Why do you need
support of others to say you are right?
You won’t take extra step to know things…just quote science..is all you can do…
You might have all science proofs in the world but it doesn’t matter if you do not KNOW By yourself about what you
are commenting is fake or true.
It’s like in India, everyone comments on how Sachin should play, Modi should run the country just because they
have attitude diarrhea, loads of only science proofs, zero practical experience.
Why argue when you can simply go see for yourself whether what you are saying is true or fake???? Hiding behind
Science…using proofs favouring you..and complicating things when it’s not required.
We are not discussing rocket science or cryogenic engines to show o science air and stop abusing and saying you
are right. Strangely for a science wannabe you have actually created “science fantasy universe for yourself”
Fantasy is fantasy.
Science is Science.
You are in a Sci- land and calling yourself scienti c…but it’s just your sci- beliefs.
I have already proved Sadhguru, Nityananda, etc. as false sitting at my computer and vomitting proofs like you did.
You are not ready to explore the other side if it’s fake or true which requires knowing by Yourself.
If I am wrong now also I will admit not be pre xed and adamant like you that I am already right
Evidence, proofs, theories, data is not always enough to know if things are fake or true.
Sometimes you have to know yourself..
Keep it simple, smartness is knowing when to use..always being smart, especially when it’s not required, is not
really a smart thing…
NT
Ashok, Here we go again because you are back again.
What make you think I don’t know myself? Because I didn’t hold my breath? Because I don’t share your beliefs?
I do know myself because I know how to think. You will too if you read that book VJ proposed.
Calling an strangely long post that just repeated the same things over and over as verbal diarrhea is not abusive.
Some irritation yes, but not abuse. Just check the length of your post with others.
Rebutting with science is not science fantasy. This is a science and rationalist blog. Obviously, everyone here will
point to science and rationalists. You have no awareness where you are typing this. Did you read other articles on
this blog?
People join meditation herds because it is hard to be adults. I want to be a child too. I had fun. But reality knocks.
You are in IT. How many hours a day are you spending to keep yourself up to date with changes?
Ashok
@NT Knowing by Yourself is better than having loads of science proofs
If I am wrong now also, I will admit but not with proofs only. Even I shared proofs to prove Sadhguru, Isha,
Nityananda, Third eye is fake like you. You are ignoring this.
But I have taken extra step to know by myself what really is fake and true..and not gone with evidence only..
Go beyond evidence and data..know by yourself
You have misunderstood, I didn’t say you do not know yourself..I said knowing THINGS by Yourself is SUPERIOR
than having scienti c evidence.
NT
Ashok, “Knowing by Yourself is better than having loads of science proofs” is a guaranteed way to believe in stupid
things, even for good scientists. That is why science places a lot of weight on peer review.
Everyone with even a minimal science education knows this. But not you.
Ashok
Okay agreed for a moment your judgement is right about me and my debate.
@NT you say, This is a “”science and rationalist”” blog.
See the website description – Nirmukta. Promoting Science, Freethought and Secular Humanism in India. Science &
Philosophy as of 16 September 2019. 8.22 pm. India.
Hope description is NOT CHANGED now that I have pointed out.
So you say I should NOT be commenting. Please con rm. I will STOP.
@NT Please read properly the website description and Do NOT JUSTIFY, @NT just say should I comment or No.
I repeat do not justify..your statement..just say Yes or No.
NT
Ashok, for some reason, you seem to think you can control my responses. You can’t. You tried that a lot so far.
You can comment. Just expect every non-factual, unscienti c and veri ablly wrong thing you say to be pointed to
you….. a lot. Expect to be heavily criticized (that’s not abuse) for every such argument.
Ashok
And hope @VJ, @Apoorva & other rationals and scienti c folks do not divert topic or justify.
This is a “”science and rationalist”” blog.
So all rationals, Just say Yes or No. I am wrong as you say right. I will STOP COMMENTING..no need to
justify..because you scienti c guys say I am just being absolutely illogical. So what is the point debating with me.
Ashok
@NT I will come your scienti c logical way only. FYI..you @NT say, This is a “”science and rationalist”” blog.
So now either you are right or I am right, but kindly don’t divert topic..I won’t control your responses..tell me by the
logic should I comment – YES or NO.
Your logical, you only say.
I have no logic at all, not even minimal science..
NT
But Ashok, you are illogical, irrational and unscienti c. You went to great lengths to prove that. Haven’t you realized
that yet?
I don’t know about “absolutely”, you can certainly be even more illogical, irrational and unscienti c. That is very
much possible.
Do you want me to list your biases, irrationality and unscienti c or even anti-scienti c statements. I can do it
tomorrow if you ask me to.
Also previously, you were in a “come to ISHA” thought loop. Now you seem to be beginning a “can I comment – yes
or no” thought loop.
Do you understand what the word freethought means? I suspect you are confusing it with something else. Look it
up.
Ashok
@NT no use diverting the topic.
NT
OK Boss.
Oh, now I get. You think consecration, mahasamadhi is secular humanism or philosophy? Yeah, no.
You also seem to think science works with neutral mind. It doesn’t. It works with a critical mind. It assumes nothing
works, until very strong proof is presented it works. You think “Try it yourself” is proof. LOL.
Have you ever read a science paper? Which journals do you read? Since you are in IT, I would guess, nothing.
Correct? If you don’t, why give speeches like you understand science?
Ashok
@NT go on..take diversion
NT
Funny fellow this Ashok is. One minute he says Jaggu is fraud, another minute he talks about him with great
respect. One minute he admits mid brain activation is fake, but another minute he says, it is real (at ISHA? – not
sure).
Initially, I did a double take when he posted that Jaggu was fake with that summary (that we already have). But I am
not sure I believe he believes that any more. I think he only says that so that he is not bogged down by the
undefendable. Now I think he might even be an ISHA trainer or recruiter.
“Part 3- But is it really possible. Third eye, blind fold reading..

Now don’t crack wise cracks how do I know? If you come I can show rst hand show > folks who can read book
without opening it and you can verify…any language”
His proof is same as that of everyone who fell for it. I saw it. It looked real.
So for him, if he sees it and gets tricked by fake things, it is this 1% truth. But when other people get tricked, it is
that 99% fake.
“Its not about proving fake or true by reading, seeing scienti c results etc…
It’s about knowing yourself if it’s fake or true…this method is Superior to what you read, quote, give references….”
What a stupid thing to say! Everyone who believes anything fake thinks exactly like this – It feels true to me, how
can I be a fool? Science must be wrong. Classic ignorance and stupidity. Is there any other kind? Not checking
science and believing feelings of truth is how all people come to believe in crap.
“****use your logic..which is superior..always knowing by Yourself is best way of proving things…**** It’s Superior
way compared to quoting what science says”
No, Ashok. Your logic is crap. 100% crap. You are an under-educated dolt who never studied logic in any way (this is
not abuse Mr. Ashokji, this is a factual observation on seeing your negative knowledge). That is why you were
pointed to a good book where you may read something you know nothing about. But you won’t read it.
“But if what you know is correct, then even scienti c proof is inferior to what you know…”
To know what is correct is why people use scienti c proof. It is as if someone took soap and washed all science and
logic from Ashok’s brain. It is as if he has no concept of what science is or what logic is.
He is right about having an empty room in the mind to believe in meditation crap. Ashok’s brain is about as empty
as it comes. In fact, it is emptier than empty. His ideas about science are exact reverse of what science is. Even
empty is not this bad.
“they realize that logic, science and common sense is best way and in fact live a happy life without spirituality or
Isha or other voodoo craps.”
This is what I read Art of Living does. First they tell you to try, no harm. Then if you want to leave, they tell you all
scary stories about people who left. These people are crooks.
“I also know in many other Ashrams, not only Isha where best of Sanyasis, left spirituality after 10 years, and went
back to job, family. Worse some became useless, depressed and good for neither Spiritual life nor could go back to
normal life..”
So ISHA does it too.
“So don’t judge by others experiences…or because you didn’t get any experience..hang in there..it’s just matter of
time..”
Don’t judge by other’s experiences if they are negative. But if other’s experiences agree with you, then trumpet
them. Report anecdotes insisting they are proof.
“useless chaps have become Sadhguru’s goto men”
This, I completely believe. Birds of a feather.
“They met their life mates… Usually, In family if one partner dies, its a huge loss but here the hurt is there but the
spiritual base gives enough clarity and least impact and life goes on.”
If someone says, you can nd you partner in our group, but you won’t feel anything if they die because the group is
your life, run far.. far away. They will control you completely in the name of seva and sadhana.
Rest tomorrow. Some much text to scrutinize. So much crap to respond to.
Ashok
@NT nice detour..
Ashok
This video is about Conch Shell when immersed in raw rice, it comes out.
https://youtu.be/O0nToL9TZNA
Reasons it’s fake or gimmick mentioned below:
This is not even magic.

Its because the spiral shape of shell and its smoothness.
Reasons-1
This is Conch Shell natural reaction even on sea, sand slips on it.
2.
It’s all because of nature of rice and conch shell here….rice grains tend to stack up against each other because of
their oval shape, but when it comes in contact with conch shell, which has very smooth surface, it would not hold
together and rice grains would slip below the shell… very simple
My query-
I don’t think that’s the only reason there is something more than that. I am not saying it’s some mythical thing but
more science and I don’t agree that it’s because of oval and smooth gure. EGGS R OVAL AND SMOOTH WILL IT
WORK WITH IT?
Query- 2
Also will the Conch Shell pop up if its kept in a box or vessel and immersed in rice????
Hope it’s answered with no abuse or jokes.

It’s a genuine query..
Tanmaya
@Ashok,
I understand your belief in the Rudraksha. If it helps you be a better person, then I suggest you continue your belief
in the belief behind it. But it’s pointless to argue the science behind it because that’ll prove you wrong everytime.
And yes, I have tried out a real Rudraksha. A friend of mine is really into Isha and has spent thousands of dollars on
obtaining a yantra. It’s ne.. he’s a good person and if that’s what helps him, then so be it. It works as you perceive
it to work – if you think and say it’ll go clockwise, it will, or anti-clockwise, it will. But skeptics will say its because I’m
not spiritually “charged” so it won’t work with me.
I have also created my own mock “Rudraksha” and demonstrated the ideomotor repsonse to my wife and parents.
It’s a pretty cool scienti c principle. Next time you hold your Rudrashka, hold it above alcohol and you’ll expect it to
spin anti-clockwise. Because that’s what you’re told and you believe. But TELL it to spin clockwise, don’t just think it.
Think it strongly and tell it to spin clockwise. It will.
I have done my experiments and speak from my own experience, wouldn’t it be nice for you to have an open mind
and conduct your own experiments?
Vivekananda himself has emphasized the importance of questioning and seeking the ultimate truth that way. I
leave you with a quote of his:
“Each work has to pass through these stages — ridicule, opposition, and then acceptance. Those who think ahead
of their time are sure to be misunderstood.”
NT
Tanmaya, Great!. Now he will think he is thinking ahead of his time.
Ashok,
“where just one small sound they can quit their body”
You know this because you saw so many people who died when you made small sound? If no, how do you know?
Oh, that’s right, you have no problem taking other people’s “experiences” (crap they make up) when it ts your crap
logic and beliefs. Then you quickly forget “So don’t judge by others experiences” and they become evidence and
proof for you.
“This is risky”
Why? Isn’t there a copper ring gimmick Jaggu invented to convince his dumb followers that it is not risky?
He rst told them it was risky to make his dumb followers think this over-breathing is very powerful. But then who
will want to risk death? So he told them, just wear a copper ring, then your soul won’t escape. He then told them,
oh, my wife just took away her ring because she wanted to die. It was all her choice, nothing to do with me. Jaggu
followers being dumb, believed that. Only in brainless meditation groups will this logic work, not in a court room.
But money can keep you out of court.
“There are people who will use third eye and without reading books, can tell what is in the book..if not books can
predict things about you”
So here is divya dhrushti that Jaggu brags about – remote seeing and future seeing. More crap the brainless ISHA
herd believes.
Obviously ISHA powers know these are lies. Notice how they fund studies to prove that meditation has e ects, but
never studies to test this obvious crap.
If you have guts, don’t demand some person on Internet to come to see your crap. Announce to everyone that you
are getting a main Tamil Nadu university to investigate “third eye reading” and predict things about people by top
ISHA third-eye fakers. The real fun will be after the press nds out. Then you will start crying that press is so hostile
to you, why don’t they respect your beliefs etc.
“Point is you have to do during Twilight moments for maximum impact”
Yeah, when it does not work, give long list of conditions he might not have followed perfectly. You pull a classic – No
true Scotsman. Lots of fake medicine people play this trick. Medicine did not work, must be because you didn’t
follow my impossible diet perfectly. You did all that?, but did you do this I never mentioned before?
“We are not discussing rocket science or cryogenic engines to show o science air”
We are not. We are discussing little school science for you.
“Google about sperm, it is the nest, nal byproduct of the food we eat. First food we eat becomes, blood, muscle,
nourishes organs, hair, bone marrow, and like this only purest food is processed to become sperm”
They would have taught you spermatogenesis in 10th class. You even have Google to remind yourself how it
happens. And THIS is the crap you found instead of science? Exactly, how dumb are you?
See your “Apan Vayu Mudra for Heart Attack” post in Yoga Delusion page.
“Our body is made up of ve elements (Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Space) represented by our ve ngers”
Did a time warp open to spit you out from 1000 years ago? Because you seem to have no concept of Elements. How
did you pass school? Didn’t they teach periodic table in school to you? Didn’t study Chemistry? All your Intermediate
Organic Chemistry got washed out by meditation? Or Pancha Bhootas t your small brain but organic chemistry
was too complicated for your brain?
None of this Genius/Einstein level science air. It is whats kids are expected to know.
This is what happens when you accept the rotten foundation that whatever feels true is more important than
scienti c proof. This is what happens when you go to school, but don’t study. You get an empty brain, washed
completely o science by meditation and lled with crap in its place, which you think is perfume.
Actually, maybe it is a good idea for you to stop posting, not just on this blog, but any comment box on Internet.
You don’t have an adult brain. I don’t know if you were always like this or if Meditation infantalized you. But rst,
you need to mentally grow up before posting. Study Organic Chemistry rst and how your body parts work, then
post. OK?
Now you can begin your victim persecution rant. They are abusing me while I say mantra, tantra, kundalini is just as
important and real as science, blah blah blah. How can they not respect my opinions on a science promoting web
site?
Ashok
Hmm..in the video, conch shell buried in a bag lled with rice comes up..
Any comments why it happens…apart from the ones already told earlier…
https://youtu.be/zdFyK5wTXv4
NT
Looks fake to me. Who knows what some unknown guy did under unknown conditions? I will think about it when
someone known to be credible demonstrates it.
Not that you are credible, but let us know after you tried it, since you are so much into personally testing. Then you
can post your own video and ask. There are all sorts of gimmicks and fake things on Internet. Learn to approach
critically.
Anyway, why are you trying to distract? What does that have to do with Jaggu or ISHA?
Ashok
@NT ….i ve nowhere told it’s true or fake??
if this forum doesn’t feel the topic is right I will stop. But why abuse, did I say the video is true..
As for Jaggi, Isha, or whatever, If you stop being abusive to prove your points, we can go ahead… credibility does not
come free with abuse..
Ashok
Please share your comments on this.
My query – Is the discussion in the video Science or Pseudoscience? Pls share your views.
https://youtu.be/fAHLwvDydsA
Kindly request to go through full video, it’s a bit long…before sharing comments, as that will be a better judgement..
Dr. S. Rajasekaran with Sadhguru – In Conversation with the Mystic @ Indian Orthopaedic Association Conference.
Please don’t abuse or assume some other reasons that i shared this..
Dec 7, 2018
Here is just one sneak peek query I have pasted? So I recommend watch full interview and share your comments –
is the video, Science or Pseudoscience.
1:31:17 – Are we all manufactured di erently ? Can we choose to be born as an Einstein ?
Hope all the answers are watched and then share the views.
Ashok
Sadhguru’s Science or pseudoscience on mercury: – Share your comments, no abuse.
Sadhguru claims that, he can solidify and liquefy mercury by simply holding it in his hand and ‘energise’ it at room
temperature. According to the Sadhguru, the bene ts of such solidi ed mercury are related to people’s health,
mental state and economics while referring to it as ‘subjective science’.
“Energising” mercury or any other material by “holding it” through a process called “consecration through divine
reverberation”, mercury can be made “eternal”
“When we energize a substance, we want the densest possible material that we can nd. Mercury is one of the
densest possible substances and it is in liquid form – it is the only liquid metal. Once you energize this, it will remain
the same way for ten, fteen thousand years. If the right kind of situation is maintained, it may remain that way for
a hundred thousand years”
The Sadhguru went on to further explain that:
“It is because of this that most of the (shiva) lingas are mercury-based. The mercury lingas in the Theerthakunds are
solidi ed mercury – 99.2% pure mercury – that 0.8% impurity is because laboratories are not capable of removing
it. According to modern chemistry, you cannot solidify mercury at room temperature; you can solidify mercury only
if you take it to -38 degrees Centigrade. But I will take it in my hand and solidify and liquefy it at room temperature.
This is Indian alchemy and this is a way to energize any space. We have seen how for people who have taken
solidi ed mercury forms into their homes, their health situation, their mental situations, even their economic
situations, have changed phenomenally.”
“This whole science of solidifying and energizing mercury is called Rasa Vaidya. It is a subjective science, because if
you have to change one thing into something else, you need some kind of addition, subtraction, change in
temperature – you have to do something, otherwise it cannot happen. But now at room temperature, mercury is
solidi ed without any addition. That cannot be physical, objective science. It has to be subjective science.”
The idea and the science and technology behind this is that you create an energy form which will do something that
you want to do for a long period of time. It is because of this that most of the lingas are mercury-based. The
mercury lingas in the Theerthakunds
Mercury is not poison. Especially in the western part of the world, people are terri ed of mercury poisoning. The
poisoning happened only because industries used mercury and let out mercury compounds into rivers. It is the
mercury compounds which poison. Mercury has always been on this planet. It has not poisoned the earth, has it? It
is part of the earth.
Sadhguru about Mercury
https://youtu.be/SsXehlHWRso
So anyone can touch it with bare hands is it. As Mercury is not toxic but because of it’s speci c gravity it passes
through skin or when ingested it makes holes through your organs as it’s gravity is more.
I’ve Googled usual reasons. Can anyone give better reasons…especially touching Mercury with bare hands by
Sadhguru in the video.
In the South, we have temples where the idol is made of nine deadly poisons. They are called navapashanas. A
cocktail of poisons together become very healing and medicinal in nature. It is a very deep science of how to
convert visha into amrita – of making a cocktail of poisons, which would instantly kill you, but instead it nourishes
you.
People consume the water that runs o these idols and it is very healing. But slowly the deity wears out. Generally
their lifespan could be anywhere between hundred and fty to two hundred years depending upon the size. Slowly
they lose their shape and form because every day as water falls on it, it wears out and people are drinking it up,
taking the Divine in. Unfortunately, these deities are not being replaced today.
Also is there really FORCES and INVISIBLE ENERGIES that a ect humans, especially emotionally, psychologically.
Other reasons… ignoring Spiritual gurus.. reasons…
This is what Sadhguru says –
Right now in the world, people who think logically are trying to handle human wellbeing by changing only attitudes.
That is the only solution people have in the modern world, isn’t it? “Be calm, take care of yourself, don’t worry, be
happy” – all this stu . You will never achieve wellbeing that way. By changing attitudes you can manage to a certain
extent, yes, but it will never happen to its fullest extent because there are other dimensions and forces working
upon you. Without handling those, you will never be free from certain things. It does not matter how much you try
to change your attitude, you can just go bonkers in your mind simply because there are other forces both within
you and outside of you. If they are not dealt with, one will not know a true sense of wellbeing.
Sadhguru Solidify Mercury at Room Temperature – Part 1
He says it’s 99.8 or 99.2% pure. Remember.
https://youtu.be/g0FAx8x9MYw
Ashok
Sadhguru Solidify Mercury at Room Temperature – Part 2
https://youtu.be/MG E2GStH8
Part 3
https://youtu.be/CyWhZDOQKMI
Yes it can be Amalgam or other scienti c reasons.
But if it’s 99.8 or 99.2% as he claims isn’t it easy to prove Sadhguru is faking or used Alchemy i.e. Amalgamated
Mercury with other metal to Solidify it…
Also in earlier comments,

Shanmugamsundaram @
http://nirmukta.com/2012/07/26/jaggi-vasudev-doesnt-understand-science-or-the-nature-of-the-
universe/#comment-46508
Cearly says Lingam’s Mercury can be tested for purity.
So till date, no one was allowed to test or no one dared to test…it’s still highly audacios of Sadhguru to claim
Mercury Solidi ed at Isha is 99% pure.
Sadhguru has openly invited anyone to Isha and do the checks…It’s there openly.o n many issues PREVIOUSLY..on
all media..YouTube etc..that too directly he has told journalist who questioned him…about certain scams..so still
nobody proved he’s fake ..any better reasons as to why…it can’t just be power, in uence…we have seen even Rahul,
Sonia etc..on bail in cases…
What if someone Challenges openly to test the purity in media, surprised no one till date from Isha was established
has asked to prove purity of Mercury in the lingam and Sadhguru denies or diverts, his lie will be out. He is so
visible in media, just few journalist are enough to prove he’s fake if they want. In fact, for journos in India this is
easy matter to prove considering the risky and huge investigation stories they do.
Not a single journo till date could do this.

There are just too many easy things to prove he’s fake. Just challenge him, ask when to come, test, prove. In fact
Nalsar Joe, remember, so journos can atleast pose a query…
So do you think folks still he is lying….as it is lot of people challenge Sadhguru in media..but this is too easy to prove
he’s fake…so is Sadhguru still lying about Mercury Solidi ed at Room Temperature with over 99% purity. He’s smart
because he is cheating as folks say but if he’s so smart, Claiming to Solidify Mercury with 99% purity is too easy to
be proved as fake…isn’t it…but till date…not done…
Ashok
It’s a TED X talk video about Biology of women and Menstruation.
https://youtu.be/HrKm9AkJ6Hs
So one aspect of video says –
Why Temples restrict Women in age of 10-50 or ENTRY OF ALL WOMEN WHO COULD MENSTRUATE? Or say women
not to goto temple during Menses?
I am elaborating in detail, seeing more probabilities and o course expanding the topic to avoid follow up posts for
same topic..
Reasons given are:
The video says:
If women capable of menstruation, or that particular age say 10-50 eg: enter #Sabarimala or Shanti Shinganapur
and should NOT enter any temples during Menses then they can get retrograde menstruation, endometriosis &
uterine problems.. bcoz of Huge +ve Scalar eld.
It says,
Remember Temples, Idols are energized places.
Temples are Not places of worship.
Just adding what I gathered:
But Menstrual aged women are ok to go to other temples when not having their menses, based on traditions of
individual temple.
But if women who are of menstruation age or in the majority age of conceiving go to the temple, there are more
chances it will a ect. So also the ban.
Just a rough, usually by 50 most women would have been expected to not have any more babies and chances are
their menses would have stopped. Do from age of 10-50 only ban.
They say these or some temples are for occult purpose and can a ect women especially who are in menses or
carrying a baby..so the restrictions.
Yes still some defy, exceptions will be there like what about who can’t menstruate due to some issue, they should
be allowed to go right or 12 year old girl can lie and enter, Now, yes, folks will again say okay we will go during non-
menstruation days.Chapter close.
These are di erent story..but overall it’s to protect from negative e ects.
O course there are myths like celibate deity so women not allowed etc…it’s a big story…
But mainly what about the reason in the video about women, Menstruation and temples?
Both sides for or against should keep their emotions and abuses aside.
Looking forward to your views.
Tanmaya
@Ashok,
Here’s the link that gives more peer-reviewed concepts behind his claims: https://www.altnews.in/scienti c-
research-ascertains-mercury-toxicity-sadhguru-continues-endorse-indian-traditional-medicines/
Making claims is easy. Any famous personality can make any claims. I like how he says it’s part of Rasa Vaidya. Rasa
Vaidya comes from Ayurveda and Ayurveda has roots in Vedas. He himself has admitted to not reading any Vedic
literature. How does he know about Rasa Vaidya?
Any research will debunk the claims but as @NT has mentioned, he could just say oh that was not 99.2% pure, or
100% pure or whatever to suit the circumstance. He also will not solidify mercury in his hand in person to show to
people because he will make up a BS reason not to – “it is of no use to people right now” “i don’t like to show o ” etc
etc. And if he does do it in person, that substance will NOT be mercury but rather some other alloy.
On a higher note, it’s always the insecure group that feels the need to put others down. Why do Jaggi and his
followers feel the need to put down science? Science powers everything around them. Science does not give a crap
about Jaggi because it is of no use to science. Science does not have a propaganda, Jaggi does. Science is equal for
everyone, it does not discriminate – you or me could hit the switch and turn on the same light bulb. Science does
not ask you to believe in it, you simply do so because there are a series of logical connections leading to principle.
Flow of electrons – Charge – Voltage – Battery – Circuit – Light Bulb – Switch

All connections are logical and work every single day, for every single person.
The funniest bits are when spiritual “gurus” insert themselves in the quantum realm without a quanta of
knowledge. Something unexplained surely must be explained through magic. The geocentric theory propagated for
the longest time because there was not su cient evidence of heliocentricity. And the Church had too much power.
Now these Gurus do. That’s a smart business idea – sell your concepts for things that cannot be explained yet.
That’s ok. Atleast they’re thinking. But MERCURY?! You must be a special idiot of a guru to challenge concrete
principles – again that are proven through a logical set of connections.
If these gurus want to “beat” science, beat it at its own game. Beat science through science by establishing credible
proofs that counter previous set of ndings.
I listen to certain Swamis routinely because while I’m a man of science, I’m still a spiritual seeker. There are good
Swamis out there that are well-read in the Vedas and will clearly give you the answers as they are written in the
Vedas without their personal opinions based on their trivially “epic” “experiences”. Swami Sarvapriyananda comes
to mind. True knowledge of our ancient Vedas need not necessarily counter science because if anything Vedas
border more on philosophy rather than science. One can be compliant with both 1) the spiritual philosophy, and 2)
science. We as a race need to learn to think critically. From what I’ve read in the Vedas and Gita, they demand
critical thinking – none of which Jaggi has ever read by the ways as he has himself admitted.
To say that this unexplained science concept can be answered through philosophy is absurd.
To say that this well-explained science concept is incorrect because the philosophical answer is accurate is even
more absurd.
To say that here are some thoughts from our philosophy that may answer what you’re experiencing in life is valid.
But sadly, the Vedas cannot be monetized this way and this is why we have seen so many Jaggis for over several
centuries. People prefer to take a pill instead of doing the hard work. This is no di erent than all the fat-loss pills
that are sold which do nothing but millions use it as opposed to hitting the gym.
By the ways, you didn’t respond to my Rudraksha reply.
NT
Ashok, Biology of women and Menstruation
The talk is typical pseudoscience crap. Like Jaggu, she talks beautifully. But content is a pure crap – usual garbage of
quantum mechanics even though she knows nothing about it. She also knows nothing about medicine of any kind.
This is what happens when an engineer learns medicine from random Internet posts. She is exactly as dumb as
you.
The talk is “Biology of a woman”. What do you think her expertise is in Biology? PhD in Biology? Researcher?
Scientist? Doctor? No 10th class + Internet crap. What does she know about menstruation? Is she a Gynaecologist?
No. MBBS? No. Nurse/mid-wife, not even that. What about knowledge in Quantum sciences? Is she a Physics PhD?
No just another jobless B.Tech who learned a few sentences about Quantum Physics from Internet just like you (ok,
at least you have a job). She studied women across India? Does she have a social sciences degree? Doesn’t look like
it.. Did she learn to do research of any kind anywhere? Does not look like it. So she took a tour and called it
research. She is just another dumb faker who is capitalizing on her stage skills just like Jaggu.
That is why you should analyze content, not how good looking or powerful looking the speaker is or how good they
sound. Don’t go for what feels right. Think.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quantum_woo
Ayurveda discussion.
http://nirmukta.com/2015/09/11/ayush-utter-nonscience/
She says a lot of crap about temple energies. Where did she get all that crap? Did she measure energies going up
etc? What studies did she conduct to prove that any such energy exists? Nothing. It is just crap she read on Internet
and from superstitions.
There is no credible research that anything happens to you when you go into any temple, mosque or church. It is
just dumb people making up dumb fantasies and calling it science.
No research says any temples give retrograde menstruation, endometriosis & uterine problems. She made all that
up. Jaggu is just like her – empty head with no basic science understanding. So he also promoted this crap.
You can ask your wife’s gynaecologist if any of this crap is true.
Look, I am not interested in analyzing every video for you. I can’t do remedial education for you.
Ashok
@NT But why do you have to abuse as dumb and ask your wife’s gynaecologist.
What if i say meet your mom’s psychiatrist. If you are NOT INTERESTED you are free to not reply. Kindly have a
healthy debate.
Ashok
@Tanmaya I already said regarding Rudarksh. If you follow what I have shared then it happens but which you are
not willing.
Hmm..what about him touching Mercury with bare hands in the video..
NT
Ashok, OK ne. I think ideas are dumb, not necessarily people who have them. But you have to understand how
irritating it is when someone does not just have just one or two dumb ideas but is full of them – say they went to
college, studied some science and still say magic invisible energy that no one can measure, that science changes
(doh!) so we should ignore it, that feeling things are true is more important scienti c evidence, ignore chemistry
and talk about alchemy, talk about best food going to sperm – I feel I am living in a lunatic asylum.
College educated people are not supposed to be like this. You guys don’t check where information comes from,
believe whatever you read from wherever, without any educated analysis. Why?! On top of that you act like you are
teaching us things when you obviously lack any basics in everything.
She is talking about menstruation. Who is the best person quali ed to talk about menstruation? A gynaecologist.
Obviously, you being a male don’t need a gynaecologist. So I said your wife’s gynaecologist. That is not trying to be
an insult. If not wife’s gynaecologist, talk to any gynaecologist you know. They will explain to you that everything
that speaker said is total trash. But the real sad thing is you even needing to talk to a gynaecologist to understand
that it is trash when it is so obvious.
You won’t die if you touch mercury a few times and not swallow it. Even accidentally swallowing a little won’t kill
you.
“Compounds of mercury tend to be much more toxic than either the elemental form or the salts.”
But it is a proven toxin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_poisoning
“The most dangerous mercury compound, dimethylmercury, is so toxic that even a few microliters spilled on the
skin, or even on a latex glove, can cause death.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury
Many e ects are delayed as well.
Always go to the reference section, look at the studies in credible journals.
Ashok
@NT still just because you think your absolutely right does not give any right to abuse…
NT
I “think” I am absolutely right? I am informing you what the entire world has proof for.
The entire world knows Mercury is poison. Only Jaggu herd lives in fantasy in denying that. I am helping you not die.
One year is now up and cows didn’t talk in Sanskrit and Tamil and still Nityananda followers think he is absolutely
right. That is how insanely absolutist your beliefs are. Pointing that is what everyone should do, not just me.
This is how any normal college graduate feels when you explained earth is actually shapeless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2WMnnrbyFk
Tanmaya
@Ashok
I think you’re straight up trolling now and laughing at us behind our backs. Else, man you need to develop some
serious reading comprehension and critical thinking abilities. “Gurus” have been mooching money o people like
you for millennia and this will continue until we conduct a serious reform not only throughout India, but also
throughout the globe.
As I previously stated, the minute a “guru” works in the word “quantum”, the next moment I start exercising my
laughing muscles.
Ashok
@NT I simply meant stop abusing.
@Tanmaya I already said not to assume things.
If you want to abuse and assume that I am trolling you, it’s up to you.
NT
Ashok, you will hate me today. But hopefully, a couple of years later you will feel I splashed cold water on you that
needed to be done, to wake you up from your fake swami coma.
Ashok
@NT hmm.. atleast you agree you abuse.

If this debate had gone without abuses or trolling surely we would have known whether it was science coma or
swami coma.
Ashok
Clearly see cases of cult, mindwash, parents complaint, all kinds of abuse etc at all these Ashrams, by these gurus.
https://youtu.be/36ZIgOpD6rI
Published on Feb 2, 2018

Look how this spiritual Nityananda Ashram is turned out to be a Fun place for these Foreign Youngsters.
https://youtu.be/C-omcb4wU6M
Daily Life at Nithyananda Ashram || Meet the Faces of Adi Kailash (My Life in India Vlog 2)
Part 1 of 2.
Ashok
And now see this,
https://youtu.be/XsnxFh1orY4
Brainwashed by Nithyananda; Now I’m Speaking Out About his DANGEROUS CULT!
Sarah Stephanie Landry
Published on Sep 16, 2019

Lessons learned. Please don’t fall into the same trap I did.
If you have been abused by this guru or his cult, details to le a charge are given on this blog site. The creator of the
blog can also be reached through the contact details to o er support and guidance to victims: https://nithyananda-
cult.blogspot.com.
Another online resource o ering resources and court documents that expose the cult’s charges of racketeering,
and the rape case the guru has ed India to avoid, is a Facebook group called Nithyananda Cult or Culture. The blog
makes some incendiary judgements about me and the role I played as the cult recruiter, but the facts they lay out
about Nithyananda should not be ignored:
https://m.facebook.com/NithyanandaCultOrCulture/
**Most importantly, please do your own research into this cult, which matches the same characteristics as
Scientology and NXIVM, and please don’t fall into the trap of the false master before he leads everyone into a
Jonestown style worst case scenario.
Thank you for your time, and I’m sorry for the terrible role I played in recruiting people there while under the
in uence of mind control.**
So like these you can nd lot of evidence about Isha foundation, Brahmakumaris, Osho, Jaggi, Nityananda, etc. and
all ashrams..
In fact testimonials from ex-Ashramites about the bad things that happen at all these places..what more do you
need to say all this bull****
All I m saying is, I took the extra step, to know things..
Ashok
Part 3.
Also see the video at 4.45 Time stamp – Cognitive Dissonance, where a person still continues to believe what he
says is true inspite of producing convincing evidence against their beliefs.
So I am not adamant that gurus or true, Rebirth, Mahasamadhi etc what i say is true.
In fact I am not adamant on anything. I go by whatever the proofs say, be it for and against, plus, minus, science,
neutral side etc.
As of now whatever proofs you guys have shared do not prove them for me.
Which is the same with you guys..your proofs I do not agree.
But then the trolls, abuses took centre stage instead of a healthy debate.
And you guys forget I always insist if am proven wrong I will admit..
But you guys are pre xed you are right already..this is not a debate when one side is already xed they are true.
Ashok
It is really a sorry state that many have had to experience this. India is a land of learning and seeking about life.
True spiriual seekers do not follow Gurus, they listen, see what they o er, evaluate but never fall at for them. Do
not devote to them so much. In India life is what you make of it, and enlightenment is found within. Most of these
gurus use the weakness within humans who have lost themselves for their own gain. This happened so much in the
US during the 70’s and many more examples are there. Please do not hate the true ideals of India. We, as a people
are humble and respect humanity, these fake Spiritual people including the ones in Isha are inhuman. Anyone who
asks you to give your life to follow them are not real gurus.
Ashok
Correction – Spiritual seekers – spiriual seekers
NT
I learned something. I thought Nityananda group were just tempting and lightly pressuring kids to fake magic
powers, I didn’t realize that they were torturing kids, abusing them mentally and physically until they broke down
and even bleeding.
No, I was not abusing you. What I did was use words – crap, trash, dumb…… a lot, to describe things that completely
deserved to be called all those things. When you say things like best food becomes sperm, you are announcing that
you not only did not study basic things about reproduction, but also digestion. When you quote Sivananda today,
you don’t seem to realize that even doctors (Sivananda went to such medical school) believed in that trash at that
time. At that time, doctors did not do experiments and studies to nd truth. They just repeated myths and said
things that felt true, like you are doing now. All medicine was dumb back then. Result was it was more dangerous to
go to a doctor back then then to not go to one. All that completely changed since. This is well known. Yeah no,
holding sperm back does not give you vital force back even though a lot of silly people believe that even today.
“I go by whatever the proofs say”

“As of now whatever proofs you guys have shared do not prove them for me.”
You haven’t been taught how to think about proofs, so you made up your own bad method for thinking about them
based on feelings like everyone did in the past. Read some books that teach the di erence between science and
pseudoscience systematically as well as systematic books on logic. A lot of things you think you understand, you
don’t.
This is not a di erence in our opinion versus yours. It is a basic knowledge de ciency much of which was supposed
to be covered in school and college. I guarantee you that once you read good books on science and logic (instead of
spirituality books and think they cover science well) you will know exactly what is wrong with your approach. Give it
a couple of years. You are not doing this for me or “rationalists”. You are doing it for yourself.
Ideals of India were seeking. Seeking need not always be what it was a thousand years ago. Learning science and
logic is seeking too.
Ashok
@NT thank you for the concern about my de ciency.
Just wish only if you could understand the de ciency you have as well.
Ashok
For both sides,
Science guys who say all this is pseudo science and the Spiritual side who say all this true..
For science, nally you know the reason why the spiritual side follows all these. Hope this makes your case
stronger. Now you can easily say all this stupid.
Spiritual side, now that you know why exactly all Spirituality is exists, hope now you know that Spirituality is not
fake..
Now you can easily show that not everything is in the realms of science.
https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/wisdom/article/indian-culture
About Indian Culture
In the following articles, Present the historical context and current relevance of various aspects of Indian culture.
Indian Culture – Harmony in Disorganization
Indian culture is incredibly complex and resembles a chaos of mind-boggling proportions. But beneath this
seeming chaos is a scienti c foundation that is thousands of years old.
The Caste System
The caste system in India, as it appears today, looks unnecessary, unfair and uncalled for. Why should we
discriminate between people on the basis of profession or birth? But this was not always the case. why the caste
system was setup in the rst place and explores whether abolishing the caste system would solve any of the
problems associated with it nowadays.
Youth and Indian Culture
It has been a long-standing complaint that Indian youth are highly in uenced by American and European cultures.
With India fast becoming a truly global environment in terms of economy, food and culture, what does it take to
make sure our youth do not forget the richness of being Indian?
Sacred Places
Why Were Temples Built?
India is a land of temples. how for millennia, temples have been instruments for raising human consciousness, and
explores the science behind their creation.
What is Consecration?
The nature of consecration and what makes this life-transforming science so relevant to humanity.
Architecture and Spirituality
The nature of geometry and architecture, and explains the unique nature of the buildings at the Isha Yoga Center,
especially the Dhyanalinga dome.
Idols in the Hindu Way of Life
Idols are an integral part of worship in the Hindu way of life. how these are not mere depictions of gods, but are
scienti cally created as powerful energy centers.
Jyotirlingas – Tools for Ultimate wellbeing
The signi cance of the 12 Jyotirlingas and their importance as tools for our ultimate wellbeing.
Kedarnath Temple – A Crazy Cocktail of Spirituality
We look at the signi cance of Kedarnath temple, one of the twelve Jyotirlingas, and how it has been a space
energized by thousands of mystics and yogis over the ages.
Badrinath Temple – The Legend and History
We look at the legend of Badrinath temple and how Vishnu tricked Shiva and Parvati, and its history of how Adi
Shankaracharya established the temple over a thousand years ago.
Chidambaram Temple – How And Why It Was Created
how and why the Chidambaram temple was created and explores its association with Patanjali, the father of
modern yoga.
Kashi – The City of Light
about Kailash, the great repository of mystical knowledge.
Mount Kailash – The Greatest Mystical Library
Kashi, or Varanasi as it is commonly known today, was the center of rituals, and a phenomenal tool created for
spiritual growth. the lore and science behind some of its main rituals.
Can Women Be Priests?
In India, most temples open to the general public are managed by priests not priestesses. Is this prejudice or is this
science?
The Science of Everyday Life
Sleeping Right
Have you ever sco ed at elders who told you not to sleep with your head placed to the north and other such
things? Well, turns out they might just have had a point to make!
The Science of Mudras
the science of mudras and the capability of human hands to function as a “control panel to everything.”
What is the Meaning of Namaskar?
The greeting of namaskar or namaste is an ubiquitous part of Indian culture. The science and signi cance behind
the gesture of joining our palms together.
Does Astrology Work?
Skeptics say no, believers say yes, but does astrology work? Vedic astrology and whether the stars and planets can
in uence our lives.
Indian Classical Music – The Science and Signi cance
We look at the science and impact of Indian classical music, with Pandit Jasraj, doyen of Hindustani classical music.
The Signi cance of Lighting Oil Lamps
There is a lot more to the humble oil lamp, than its obvious use of providing light and aesthetics. Find out more
about how you can create an ambience of energy and positivity in your home.
Bha-ra-ta!
Bharat – The Power of a Name
The name “Bharat”, and how it wasn’t just a name inherited from India’s rst emperor, but a scienti c device to nd
your rhythm with the tune of existence.
Mystic India
God is in Your Genes!
The science behind the system of gotras and kulas that were established in Indian culture, which show a deep
understanding of genetics.
What is the Signi cance of Brahmacharya?
Brahmacharya has always been an integral part of the spiritual process. what brahmacharya is, and who a
brahmachari is.
Kumbha Mela – The Greatest Gathering
the science and signi cance behind the Kumbha Mela, the greatest gathering of people in the world.
Vibhuti – How and Where Should We Apply It
Vibhuti, the sacred ash, is a very important of the spiritual seeker’s life. Look at the methods of preparing vibhuti,
how it should be used and where it must be applied on the body.
Rudraksha – Everything You Need to Know About Rudraksha
A rudraksha is the seed of the Eliocarpus ganitrus tree and plays an important role in a spiritual seeker’s life.
Sadhguru looks at the various types of these beads and their bene ts, including the panchmukhi and ek mukhi.
Snakes and Mysticism
About the connection between mysticism and snakes, and the power and energy of this mysterious creature.
Sadhus, Saints and Seers – What’s the Di erence?
The di erence between sadhus, saints, seers, and yogis, and where enlightenment ts into all this.
Kali Yuga – When Did it End and What Lies Ahead?
the science of the four yugas, and calculates the timeline of Kali Yuga and the coming shift in human consciousness
in 70 years.
Festivals in Indian Culture
The Importance of Festivals
Festivals are a very signi cant part of Indian culture. how celebration can be a passageway to the most profound
aspects of life.
The Signi cance of Makar Sankranti
We look at the signi cance of the Makar Sankranti festival, a day where there is a signi cant movement in the
zodiac – the arrangement of the earth’s dial around the sun.
Why Mahashivarathri?
Mahashivarathri is the most signi cant festival in India. how it can be a stepping stone in spiritual evolution.
Ugadi
The science behind why Ugadi is the new year.
Sri Rama Navami: Conducting Yourself Gracefully
Why Rama is worshipped throughout India, and what we can imbibe from his life.
Guru Purnima
The full moon day in the month of Ashadha (June-July) is known as Guru Purnima. This sacred day honors the
ancient lineage of enlightened beings.
The Signi cance of Mahalaya Amavasya or Pitru Paksha
The signi cance of Mahalaya Amavasya or Pitru Paksha, and why the tradition of honoring our ancestors is
signi cant.
Dussehra – Why Do We Celebrate It?
Dussehra or Vijayadashami is the tenth day that follows the nine days of Navratri. How it can bring success and
victory into our life.
Ayudha Pooja – What Is Its Signi cance?
How Ayudha Pooja can be an important tool for growth, and much more than just a ritual.
Naraka Chaturdashi – Killing of All Wrongs
The legend behind Naraka Chaturdashi, when Krishna slew the demon Naraka, and explains how it is still relevant
to us today.
Diwali – Lighting the Fire Within
The signi cance of the Festival of Lights – Diwali, and how we can make it a cracker of a time!
The Signi cance of the Kartik Month
The importance of the Kartik month and looks at why lighting lamps is so signi cant in this month.
NT
“Just wish only if you could understand the de ciency you have as well.”
the only one here with a de ciency, which a lack of basic education is Y-O-U. Not believing stupid, unintelligent
things is not a de ciency. it isn’t “spirituality”, just stupidity. you seem to think is science against spirituality. this is
just between common sense and education against pure ignorance.
are you going to post entire pages from ISHA to make up for the fact that you don’t have any points?
all ISHA articles are dumb. why? because no one at isha has any basic concept of any intelligent study of anything.
so Jaggu abuses the word science and puts it everywhere. he says every superstitious idea is in fact science. he tries
to justify every bad practice as science when it is obvious that he is a fool that no basic concept of science.
caste is because of job training? nothing to do with the belief of segmenting of purush as per vedas? the much of
the world managed to do it ne with trades without caste.
yugas are a science?
temples are created for raising consciousness? we must be the most consciousness people in the world then.
snakes have magic energy? another jaggu promoted junk idea.
unique nature of dyanalinga? just believe whatever crap jaggu tells because his crazy followers have seizures etc
there?
idols are energy centers? which energy meters are you using? obviously nothing. you think because you thought
your spine tingled, it is energy?
sleeping to north is science? yet another jaggu stupidly trying to explain superstition as science.
astrology is science for you?
gotras are genetics for you? why only father’s side? but marrying a cousin with di erent gotra is OK?
what the hell does jaggu know about seeds? did the fool ever study botany in his life? did you think him throwing in
a latin name makes him look like he did for you?
this is what D-U-M-B means. you don’t have one or two stupid ideas. your entire understanding of the world is
nothing but a big jumble of foolish superstition. you just want to make it respectable by calling it science. well all
know the crap ISHA posts on its web site for unintelligent people. you don’t have to post that here. unlike you, we
know what pseudoscience justi cations are.
Jaggu is Nityananda who does not sound like a blabbering idiot for 2 seconds. after that he sounds the same.
This is why I said your posts sound like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2WMnnrbyFk
Ashok
https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/sadhguru-spot/mahasamadhi
Sama means equanimous. Dhi or buddhi means intellect. Samadhi means “equanimous intellect.” An equanimous
intellect is an intellect that does not discriminate between good and bad, high and low, joy and misery, pain and
pleasure.
Mahasamadhi means a great equanimous intellect – the highest level of equanimity of the intellect. That means
your intelligence lost all external input.
Right now, your intelligence is functioning because of external inputs – because of what you read, heard, gathered.
The information in your mind is what makes you look intelligent. You are projecting your memory as intelligence,
which it is not. Once you identify with your memory, equanimity is not possible.
Because memory has been accumulated in a prejudiced manner – “I like this person – I don’t like that person; this is
a good person – that is a bad person; this is all right – that is not all right.” All these judgments and prejudices are a
consequence of memory. Everything is labeled in some way: as good and bad; what you like and what you do not
like; high and low; God and devil.
As long as you are identi ed with the bank of memory that you hold, equanimity is not even a possibility. Samadhi
is an equanimous intellect. This means you have to disengage your memory from your intellect. If your intellect
gets disengaged from your memory, it struggles for a little while. After putting in a certain amount of sadhana,
suddenly you will see all that is in the memory does not seem to mean anything. Freedom is a crazy thing.
Everyone says that they are looking for freedom, but actually, they are working for bondage. Everyone is trying to
bind themselves to something or someone. Whether a man is trying to bind himself to a woman, a woman to a
man, or to a God, a party, an ideology, a philosophy, a belief system, or now Isha. No matter what you bind yourself
to, you are binding yourself to nd some meaning.
If you bind yourself to something that obliterates your memory in some way, for immediate purposes, it is a good
binding. It is a good binding to start with, because it creates a distance between you and everything that is past.
This is what brahmacharya or sanyasa means – you have divorced yourself from your memory, because you want
an equanimous intellect.
If you are attached to your memory, you will never know equanimity. It is like stepping on the throttle and thinking
the vehicle will stop – it will not stop. It will only go faster and faster!
Because without setting the necessary ambience, without releasing yourself from what you are tied to, if you row
the boat, the scenery will change because of the seasons, not because you are going somewhere.
Leave the bag of memory there, wake up in the morning – the sun is fresh and new, the air is fresh and new,
everything is new – just experience it for what it is.
If you are not able to dissolve it absolutely, at least diminish it to the minimum possible level.
This is something you must do, because if you don’t do what you can do, then how can you know? If you do
everything that you can do, there are certain things that you cannot do, because they are not within your
experience.
NT
classic evil godman words – honey coated poison or nonsense.
Nonsense Example:
“The information in your mind is what makes you look intelligent”
who de ned intelligence as memory? memory is reciting like a priest. intelligence is being able to think di erently
and create, something no one does in AOL or ISHA or Nithyananda Dhyanapeetam as they mindlessly stare and
praise as their master says crap like this.
Poison Example:
“This means you have to disengage your memory from your intellect.”
this is what all brainwashing godmen tell their dumb followers in di erent ways. it is so common that they made
this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EizE6U4yQpM
rst you have a job or life that has no satisfaction and so feel empty inside.
solution is to get a better job that interests you, learn more, nd better friends, have constructive hobbies.
but they tell you to just join them, that you will then become happy, ful lled and even smarter, just do kriya or
some other mechanical mind task. advice for everything is do more isha kriya, sudarshan kriya.
then you feel even more emptiness and may be scared.
they explain it away saying it is sign that it is working (at least it is for them) and you should continue.
then instead of becoming sharper, you start losing memory.
they explain that it is also good. memory is bad anyway. it is keeping you unhappy and so on.
if you have seizures from kriya, they praise you saying it is yogic energy, do more.
they tell you to let go of social bonds, meaning your family and friends and form new ones inside the mind control
group.
loosing memory, personality, social bonds is what brainwashing is. they wash o everything that was you to make a
robot who just repeats group propaganda.
by now no life left outside and it is hard to leave and you are their willing slave. by then they already reverse
de ned mental slavery as freedom. most evil thing.
the video is mocking exactly manipulative articles like this – evil mind control is always, always presented as honey
words. no one says directly, let me brainwash you. this is how they all say it.
NT
neuroscientist fact-checks Jaggu’s brainless sermon depression.

https://www.altnews.in/depression-the-myths-falseness-of-sadhgurus-quotes/
as usual Jaggu knows nothing but babbles his shower thoughts and his unthinking base eats it up blindly.
I like this Alt-News web site. this is good journalism, exposing fake news and fools in news with fact checking.
I see that the scientist, same lady who wrote the fact check for mercury is not poison nonsense wrote a book called
INDIA MISINFORMED, much needed book, there should be a 100 more like it.
https://www.amazon.in/India-Misinformed-Story-P-Sinha/dp/935302837X
Ashok
As usual keeping it simple to give your intellectual diarrhea a break..
https://youtu.be/a1Tsh0apAAc
There is a dimension beyond intelligence, you call it whatever you want or ignore it.
You need something BEYOND INTELLIGENCE to experience it.
Surrender or do not apply brains, it means not become dumb but even SURPASS your intelligence, transcend it.
Not blindly believe but atleast nd out if there is a dimmension beyond Intellect.
NT
“There is a dimension beyond intelligence, you call it whatever you want”
there is, and we call this “dim-mension” one of these things
getting high
getting stoned
hallucinations
minor insanity
same thing happens on weed. you and other stoners are completely con dent you are singing like Lata
Mangeshkar when you are high, but if you have yourself recorded and listen after you are not high, you will realize
it was horrible.
not di erent from meditation or “kriya”. you think your shower thoughts or those of other pot heads are serious
wisdom. you think you have transcended Godel or E=mc2 when in reality you might fail every math test or don’t
understand basic physics. you think you can solidify mercury with your mind or think you should lecture people
how toxicity works even though you know nothing about chemistry or biology. you want to lecture how sperm is
energy, how earth is shapeless when you don’t understand basic facts.
this is why many meditation stoners love to talk about transcending Einstein and Godel. people have a laugh at
stoners when they talk, and even stoners themselves when they are no longer stoned.
NT
Now for your stupid video.
LOL, Jaggu thinks Aristotle is the father of “modern” logic. No you idiot, it is George Boole. Aristotle is the father of
early logic. dumb Jaggu, Aristotle’s logic was not at all perfect. everyone knows that. he thought heavy objects fall
faster etc. his logic was better than religious logic, but was too simple compared to modern logic.
Aristotle was not in a good state of mind because he wore 3 layers of clothes to look presentable? what does it say
about your state of mind Jaggu? you freaking wear a baba costume. you can’t dress like everyone else? of course,
you can’t, a godman has to dress up, or it won’t work.
notice how he says, “a fool like Aristotle”. so don’t call it abuse if I keep mentioning how Jaggu is a fool etc.
who are these people who don’t look at owers or enjoy life? Jaggu does not know any smart people personally. no
smart person comes to him, only fools. he just imagines them to be like this or that because they are always angry
at him for talking crap. smart people go to concerts, appreciate art, laugh, play with kids, have pets, have gardens
and do all nice things in life. Jaggu has petty thoughts. so he thinks everyone else thinks petty like him.
also that aristotle story never happened. when I search for it, I only see Jaggu and Osho’s retarded sites. it looks like
a fake story that another godman Osho Rajneesh invented. so it looks like jaggu did not even read any book by
aristotle, he is just copying the lies made up by rajneesh.
Heraclitus died in 475 BC. Aristotle was born in 384 BC. I didn’t know dates myself till now but if you have basic
common sense, you will at least think you should verify instead of swallowing every word that moron says.
he is basically saying, don’t think, just listen to me. if you think for 5 minutes, you will know that I am a liar and a
fool. so please don’t do it. I spent a few minutes thinking and I exposed his lies. is that hard for you?
So dear Ashok, why did you not simply google any of these things to verify? why do you follow liars brainlessly? why
do you insist on being stupid and hate facts? because you are stoned and live in a “dim-mension”. Wake up sheep!!
Ashok
I knew it the moment when things go simple your brain uselessly thinks unnecessarily and starts to abuse – So
come out of the well, frog!!! don’t croak unnecessarily that you are the smartasst
…if you can’t comment without respect…
You will get it back..

I m sorry but You are asking for it…
No one is asking you to bark unnecessarily…there are plenty of folks who know science and comment decently..so
comment decently or you will get it back..
Also in the stupid video you din’t see about people who are idiots is it, some stupids can think a bit, your problem is
that you are stupid but think you are smart.
See properly it is Frege is often recognized as the “father of modern logic” but why does he get that recognition and
not George Boole? Read properly and rst and comment..
So what you say is also wrong, get it..plus we can go on debating for ages who is modern logic’s father…
So get the context properly about the video..
rst get the context rst..
He is telling ancient times (3,066,000 years back, that is form Satya yuga till Dwapara Yuga) vs what we know today
from the rst civilization. You don’t believe in Yugas..good..
This is what he meant by father of modern logic, not before BC and AD or Not before industrial era vs Modern era.
O course for you earth is only few thousand years old and civilization started only few more thousand years
earlier..
As I said you don’t believe in Yugas etc.
So do one thing, I will come to your point..

First nd out how old earth really is, nd out how many years before rst civilization really started. This is much you
nd out for SURE, your stupid modern science won’t give you de nite answer even if you search with all the
smartest scientist till your death because you already xed that civilization started with primitive humans or say
cave man.
First nd out origin of how really things started on earth, then you comment, any more abuses, wisecracks you will
be given back equally..no hold barred…if you can’t discuss, go sit and cry elsewhere..or go cry to your site admin to
block me..that I am stupid for your smartasst brain…
Share with us..then I will follow what you say..but the answers should be perfect.
First civilization on earth.
Age of earth.
Give perfect answer with science..then you start diaharreating as usual.

I won’t be surprised if any of your fellow brothelrens pitch in to support you…atleast hope you folks start with your
real names..NT, I even doubt if your really a person or a MT brain just diaharreating comments..without
application..
First learn to apply the data and not just have diarrhea with data you have.
So no point arguing with you..
NT
LOL, you just googled Frege. I don’t care whether it is Boole or Frege or if it is Bool and Frege. the point is there is
nothing modern about Aristotle. now you are re-labeling modern and ancient and calling it “context”.
I don’t treat your arguments with respect because you never admit you are wrong even when completely proved
you are wrong. I don’t treat you with respect because you say really stupid things.
just say it man, Jaggi was being foolish or lying when talking about Aristotle and Heraclitus. they never met. it was
impossible. he just stole a story from another faker godman. they lived more than a century apart and it is really
stupid to invent a story that they met, especially such a crazy story to brainwash people to not think.
satya yuga is not real. you don’t need belief for real things. you don’t know basic history just like you don’t know any
basic facts. there was no civilization “3,066,000 years back”. you don’t even know what ancient means.
“for you earth is only few thousand years old”
what!!!!? why do you think I think that? why do you think any smart person thinks that?
I treat you like a foolish child because you say things like this. if you want respect, fact check everything before you
say. don’t expect others to do it. others having to do fact checks cost you respect. you burned away all your balance
at this point. jaggu burned his respectability similarly. he also calls great ancient philosophers like Aristotle who
started it all “foolish”. he deserves being called foolish. Aristotle may have been wrong many times, but jaggu is a
peanut brain compared to him.
An MT brain like me is more than enough to fact check Jaggu. you don’t even have that.
Just admit it, Aristotle and Heraclitus story is fake.
Ashok
LOL, you proved me wrong??? Yes, dream on.

It’s better to be a stupid child than stupid adult like you.
NT
so you won’t even admit that silly Aristotle and Heraclitus story was fake even when it is well-known that they lived
generations apart. you are a true blind disciple of Jaggu. you can never admit he is ever wrong. who can respect
that? that is what being a mind slave is. total brain wash.
also, it seems the part about Aristotle wearing 3 layers of clothes was fake too. his entire story is fake just like his
whole image.
so there you go. Jaggu is a faker about being “fully realized” and just steals stories and quotes unreliable sources.
Jaggu knew none of his sheep disciples know anything about Aristotle or care, so he felt safe lying about him.
Ashok
As I said you just puke data.

No application whatsoever.
No one exactly knows their date of births and date of death for sure.
You want to say you are right.

Google properly, you will nd di erences.
Even if all the data, sources shows Aristotle and Hiraclitus lived in di erent times, don’t you still get it is just 100
years.
So you nd out the exact dates?

Find out if they really lived in same time?
Find out if they really lived 100 years apart?
Find out if they really have exact date of birth and time of both?
All are assumptions, even the data what you say that they lived apart. It is debatable.
So as usual I have enough reason I am right and so do you.
But as usual you claim you already won.
And as you said 100 years is the di erence. So it’s quite possible they did live together. You can’t prove for sure they
lived apart. First of all give their exact time and date of birth.
Hiraclitus was unconventional during his times which did not go well with his contemporaries. He was never given
the credit he deserved.
Just see the huge negative opinions on Hiraclitus. Even his personality is hugely mocked upon.
Though he was a scholar on the lines of Plato, Aristotle etc, it’s surprising that he got so much negativity and hardly
any credit.
On careful reading you will nd Hiraclitus was on par with Aristotle, Plato etc.
Also you should know how history is manipulated.
You are good at data but do not know what to make of it.
NT
And here we have Ashok’s hilarious attempt trying to furiously Google anything, I mean anything up to try to
somehow defend his idiot, liar Godman. Almost as good as arguing that earth is shapeless.
I haven’t heard logic like this since primary school, with classmates trying to argue that their exam answers marked
wrong were in fact correct in you look at it really really hard.
“On careful reading you will nd Hiraclitus was on par with Aristotle, Plato etc.”
Oh really? which “Hiraclitus” texts have you been “carefully” reading Ashok? Please tell us. LOL. Are these rst
readings since 1 hour ago?
“Hiraclitus was unconventional during his times which did not go well with his contemporaries.”
please stop lecturing about things you know nothing about acting like you do. we can all tell you know nothing.
“And as you said 100 years is the di erence. So it’s quite possible they did live together.”
Heraclitus D-I-E-D around 475 BC

Aristotle was B-O-R-N around 384 BC
he was dead 91 years before Aristotle was born. So Heraclitus grandson, if he had one, would also have been dead
before he was born.
the fake ocean story and things like Aristotle being thin etc were all stolen from Osho talk – “The Hidden Harmony,
Talks on Heraclitus”. Ohso is also a faker godman, but at least he actually did reading, however bad it was. Jaggu
brags he does not need to read because he is “fully realized”. he just quietly stole all that and lies that it is his “fully
realized” magic vision.
Here is the stolen fake story directly from the talk:
It is said that one day Aristotle was walking on the beach near the sea, and he saw a man
who was bringing water from the sea with a teaspoon and throwing that water in a small
hole he had dug near the bank. Aristotle was worried about his own problems. He didn’t
bother — once, twice, he came near and saw the man, but the man was so absorbed that
Aristotle became curious: “What is he doing?” He could not contain himself, and the man
was absolutely absorbed. He would go to the sea, ll his teaspoon, bring the water, put it
in the hole, go again…. Finally Aristotle said, “Wait! I don’t want to disturb you, but what
are you doing? You have made me tremendously curious.”
The man said, “I am going to ll this hole with the whole ocean.”
Aristotle, even Aristotle, laughed. He said, “You are foolish! This is not going to happen.
You are simply mad, and you are wasting your life! Just look at the vastness of the ocean
and the smallness of your hole — and with a teaspoon you are going to empty the ocean
into this hole? You are simply crazy! Go home and take rest.”
The man laughed even louder than Aristotle, and he said, “Yes, I will go, because my
work is done.”
Said Aristotle, “What do you mean?”
He said, “The same you are doing — and even more foolish. Look at your head: it is
smaller than my hole. And look at the divine, the existence: it is vaster than this ocean.
And look at your thoughts — are they bigger than my teaspoon?” The man went, laughing
loudly. It shocked Aristotle.
Nobody knows whether this happened or not because

Aristotle remained the same. This story may have been invented by Heraclitus — I
suspect. Or it is even possible that this man may have been Heraclitus — that too, I
suspect.
Rajneesh faked the story but at least says he is not sure if the story is true. but Osho only fakes smartness. if he
knew that Heraclitus lived much earlier than Aristotle, he would not have suggested that Heraclitus invented the
story. how could Heraclitus know of Aristotle? and Aristotle never wrote any of this.
moral of this episode, godmen fake a lot of things. even among godmen, Jaggu is still a peanut brain who just steals
content. none of this is “fully realized” mind, which does not exist.
so dear baby ashok, think, doubt, verify, fact check. stop being a baby and believing anyone. you should not believe
anything I said but verify facts (not feelings). never especially believe any godman. never. they are all nityanandas. it
is just a matter of how many minutes of analysis you need to do before you realize that they are faking it.
Ashok
As usual NT a.k.a MT brain shows he is nothing much more than a infant.
Just believes all facts are right, that too history facts are right it seems….LOL joke of all the lines you have puked so
far..
Till date no one knows even exact date of birth of Jesus, after whom the whole AD and BC and today’s calendar year
2019, is based, hope you know basic atleast what a baby knows that 2019 means 2019 years after Jesus died,
resurrected or whatever you want to blabber…you will Jesus was not born also…
But is it really 2019, o course you are infant, rst wear your thinking cap or atleast wear your diapers and rst
grow up…
First of all no one knows if this is 2019 exactly..how are you so sure this 2019..you infant…
But you infant gone crazy just goes on mental diarrhea and is sure that Aristotle and Heraclitus were born 90 years
apart…LMAO..
Ur humour is going o the ceiling, keep it up Mr.Bean
First learn basics, then speak..
NT
This is why you are called brain washed.
Even after showing that Jaggu was obviously reciting Osho’s fake story, almost sentence by sentence, you cannot
come out of your denial.
“Just believes all facts are right”
LOL. yes, I have no problem with f-a-c-t-s.
you on the other hand believe all c-r-a-p that comes out of Jaggu’s mouth is correct. any f-a-c-t against that must
only be wrong. this is called blind follower ship. where did Jaggu get his c-r-a-p? answer is magic meditation for you.
LOL. such a baby.
“Aristotle and Heraclitus were born 90 years apart”
You can’t even read. They were “born” 150 years apart. 90 plus is death to birth time.
“First learn basics”
learning history, science, reading comprehension, logic, critical thinking can wait for you. rst you need to learn to
do addition and subtraction baby.
what seems to have happened is:

someone made up a story with a child and aristotle on beach. Ohso changed it to old man and stuck in possibly-
Heraclitus because he needed to give a Heraclitus talk. Jaggu copied it almost word for words, but modi ed that as
de nitely-Heraclitus. this is how myths grow. analysis and logic exposes defects in myths. so Jaggu hates people
who can take apart his lies.
Ashok
Hey infant crossing into foetal stage.. rst prove this is exactly 2019..
Then you can say dates of Aristotle and others..your puking seems to be falling at on your face, remove the slime,
see properly… Don’t simply think all historical dates are correct….
Hey congrats you just moved to the Foetus stage… you just got more improved, at this rate you will soon
disappear…
Even Jaggi’s followers, even folks at Isha won’t remember him so much.
Not a single day passes for you without thinking about him…LOL..
But you don’t follow Jaggi…crap..
I even doubt if you are a Isha espionage, making people focus on Jaggi by frequently engaging in negative publicity
of Jaggi..
Nice strategy, so how much is Jaggi paying you…now don’t say he’s not good at PR..just becoz you are caught…
The way you hate him clearly exceeds the love his followers have for him..
Surely no doubt you are a Isha espionage…and that too one taking lot of risk…
First you prove this is exactly 2019.

Then we will talk about Aristotle, and others dates.
Then we can goto what Jaggi said is true or hoax..
Then you suckle your thumb in victory…but piece of advice, don’t keep going like this…you will soon end back to a
zygote…and then kaaput…hey NT became literally MT.
Gone..
& Come up with your own lines instead of simply lifting o others comments and manipulating..prove your point
with your comments..
Even I can take two lines from your comments out of context..and say all nonsense like you do…
This is a intelligent forum, folks can understand a chain conversation…LOL or may be exceptions like you are
there…
NT
Aww, here ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a wild ISHA meditator. “inner peace” only lasts so long. you just
gotta poke them right about Jaggu…. or just mention “Joe”. LOL. he is like a demon in their jaggu purana, who rose
against their lord. lord jaggu slew him. amen.
if you want to understand the meditation mind of ISHA guys, just nd a video where someone criticizes Jaggu or
suggests that his supposed facts are wrong in comments and read the responses. more should criticize him, just to
wind up these fools. meditation reduces emotional reactivity? de nitely not in ISHA and its “kriya”.
I visualize ISHA guys as chanting “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”, like in the cults video, every time they hear
facts and proofs that prove Jaggu was lying. I think Ashok here is a perfect case of that.
mercury is a poison. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”

eclipses don’t poison food. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
Jaggu’s wife did not die because she chose to remove copper ring. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
Jaggikanth can’t sweeten water. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
Jaggu just lifts material, word for word from Osho. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
Aristotle and Heraclitus never met. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
Jaggu is not “fully realized”. his sermons are just shower thoughts of a poultry farmer or material stolen from
others. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
meditation will not give you healing powers. “stamp out doubt, stamp out doubt”
“First you prove this is exactly 2019”
Ashok, you already lost……. so badly, when you have to say this because you are having indigestion from being
proven that story could not have happened. Wake up!!!!
“Come up with your own lines”
OK, how about this?

ISHA = Fact Fearing, Fantasy Following, Feeling Fools.
“Not a single day passes for you without thinking about him”
I am just responding to the crap you post at this point. let’s see how long it takes for y-o-u to post your next
Jaggu/ISHA fake science article here that denies clear-cut science, logic and facts.
NT
ISHA’s insane logic
Logical person: Here are the dates given by historians.
ISHA logic denier: you can’t be absolutely sure of historical dates.
Logical person: it can be an year or two o . That is why they put c before the date, meaning circa.
ISHA logic denier: but we can be completely sure about minute details in our own story like when a person laughed,
was surprised etc even when no one else saw it and no credible proof exists.
Logical person: How?
ISHA logic denier: Magic Meditation Vision. Lord Jaggu magically sees beyond time.
Logical person: Here is text from a previous godman that matches almost line by line. Looks like he just stole that
from here.
ISHA logic denier: * silence *. You can’t prove this is 2019, you fool.
Ashok
Nice one zygote, keep going..dumb head seems to nally get irked when given a taste of his own medicine…
Still prove this is 2019 rst
, or keep suckling your thumb..mama, I won..I won but all you ever did is puke on your own face with slimy
data..with no application whatsoever..
I am just responding to your crap in your language…u go on with wisecracks, insults and just becoz folks are
spiritual or mediators should keep quiet it seems, go run if your scared…
U abuse, I will give you back..btw you say meditation is crap so what is the surprise that you got screwed by
mediitators..its fake right… and look at this aren’t we improving.. we are giving you back in your own language…
So atleast we started following…your smart, your diction is perfect right, so why pissing when you got to taste your
own medicine…
Can clearly see begging for approval from others..shows your insecurity..
Btw prove this exactly 2019 ..then you can start to abuse..no one’s intimated..here..go on..cry
NT
did Jaggu copy his sermon from Osho talk or not? don’t distract. you have the video. you have the text. do you
deny?
Ashok
You are the one who is distracting?

First prove this is 2019?
Tanmaya
2019 is 2,019 years after the start of Anno Domini era. Birth of Christ is de ned as year 0 according to the Julian and
Gregorian calendars.
The Chinese calendar dates back to about 2700 BC and the Hindu calendar to about 3100 BC. The Jewish calendar
has an even earlier starting point, 5,770 years ago, calculated as the date of the creation as described in scripture.
A year (a revolution around the sun) stays constant, the calendar is relative. Something could have happened in
5BCE, and that may be some other year in some other calendar, but the number of years it happened ago stays the
same. Do you follow?
I could de ne a Tanmaya calendar that started on year 1900; it is year 119 for me now. Something that happened
in 1950 is still 69 years ago for me, as it is for you as well if you’re following any other calendar. These are man-
made de nition BUT years STAY THE SAME.
When you read anything, it is almost always in Julian/Gregorian calendar and the year is 2019. All dates you see
have been adjusted to these calendars so as to provide relevancy. The dates for Aristotle is also adjusted for this, all
dates are, this calendar is just how we keep track of years.
According to NT, Heraclitus died in 475 BC and Aristotle was born in 384 BC.
This would be 2494 and 2403 years ago respectively REGARDLESS of the calendar chosen (unless the calendar
you’re working with has some really weird de nition of a year and does not abide to the standard revolution
around the Sun). Now don’t start basing your arguments on di erent calendars, I’ll just ask you to re-read the post
@NT – Stop wasting your time man, some are beyond logical saving.
Ashok
The date of birth of Jesus is not stated in the gospels or in any historical reference, but most theologians assume a
date of birth between 6 BC and 4 BC.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_birth_of_Jesus
Get your basics right, it’s not 2019 exactly.
But no you are right..go on brag…
So much for logic saving..yes you are wasting time..and killing logic..to the core
NT
“So come out of the well, frog!!!”
you seem to suggest that I am some odd single person who thinks Jaggu is stupid, alone in this view. everyone
knows how stupid he is. it is just the ISHA nuts that are brainwashed.
Ashok, here are some comments for you from the very video you posted. people have been calling him out since
one year.
Al e Collins
Aristotle is the father of logic, but not ‘modern’ logic. Frege is the father of modern logic. Aristotle’s logic is not
perfect, as Sadguru says, but very limited. Aristotle based his logic on a subject-predicate format. Whereas, Frege
realised that the logical form of sentences is more like mathematical functions than subject-predicate. Moreover,
with Fregean logic, you can combine multiple instances of the quanti ers ‘all’ and ‘some’, whereas, with Aristotelean
logic, the quanti ers can only appear once within a sentence. This means that ‘every man loves a dog’ and ‘there is
some dog whom every man loves’, cannot be distinguished in Aristotelean logic, but can be in Fregean logic.
Kaushik Gogoi
Fool explaing Great Aristotles life to fools
How To Sing-Tutorials
It takes great intellect to have a great sense of humour..this senseless person says intelligent people do not laugh…I
have seen most intelligent people very happy..and I have seen most spiritual people depressed cause they r not
experiencing the sensation they were told to achieve by their gurus
Alex G
Story is beautiful but factually wrong.. aristotle and heraclitus were born and died in totally di erent era. I was
expecting this story to be true as well.
Vasudeo Kaushal
Heraclitus and Aristotle were contemporaries?!! And did they live in the same city?!! Is mind useless or our not
developing it properly is wrong? So many people are listening to you. Are they listening through their minds or
something else? If mind is really something so unimportant, why are YOU using it? Why are you not using that
device which is a better and superior existential device to convey yourself? Using intellect itself you are telling that
Intellect is of no use!!!
K
Aristotle lived between 384–322 BC and Heraclitus lived between c. 535 – c. 475 BC. There is no way that this
meeting took place,
This story is from “hidden harmony” chapter 5, by Osho.
Sadhguru has simply narrated this story that he read from Osho’s book.
A real guru or a smart ass ?
“It is easy to mislead people but it is hard to convince them that they are being misled.” – Mark Twain.
Chief Hopper
Deep message?? That’s all plagiarized from Osho.
But you be happy tossing Jaggi’s salad
Dorian Philotheates
Heraclitus and Aristotle lived about a century-and-a-half apart. The story of Aristotle at the beach is a complete
distortion; Sadhguru presumably got it from reading Osho, who incorrectly relates the details of an apocryphal
ancient tale in which Aristotle encounters a little boy on the beach who is attempting to count the grains of sand
one at a time. Once again: careful, Sadhguru — check your sources! Parables are great to illustrate a point but don’t
ascribe any false historicity to them — tell them as parables…
Dorian Philotheates
This description of Aristotle is pure fantasy. I defy anyone to nd ancient sources referring to a physical description
of Aristotle. We know next to nothing about his personal appearance and private life; much of what has been
subsequently written and said about him is mere invention. The only ancient physical description we have of
Aristotle is from several hundred years after his lifetime; it comes from the Greek writer of the Roman era Diogenes
Laertius ( oruit 3rd century AD) who brie y describes Aristotle as being rather thin of leg, of having small deep-set
eyes, and of being an elegant but not ostentatious dresser who paid particular attention to his hair and grooming,
and who wore rings on his ngers (the implication presumably being that this elegance in dress, while
unremarkable for an upper class Greek gentleman of the time, was rather less common for a philosopher). That’s
all we’ve got; this story of the three garments is sheer nonsense. ………
Aleem Pasha Shaik

Dongi baba
Ajit Aaw
Please don’t call this IQ less man your Guru. He need to promot his videos.
Ajit Aaw
This man is faulty. He killed his family. He cant compare himself with Aristotle.
Alireza Teimoori
Can somebody please explain this?… Heraclitus had died before Aristotle was born! Maybe Sadhguru made this
story to explain the di erence between Heraclitus’ and Aristotle’s philosophy … ??
Sarang G
Heraclitus was a pre socratic philosopher, and died 100 years before Aristotle was even born…
A conman asking people not to use logic, because when people start using logic they can no more thrive…
and here is the full document of the talk from where he copied.
https://oshorajneesh.com/download/osho-books/western_mystics/The_Hidden_Harmony.pdf
there should be a limit to denial before it gets called insanity.
the stolen talk was given in december 1974, just 45 years ago. what this has to do with calendars, I don’t know.
also notice that almost everyone who criticizes him there comes o as intelligent and well read with a few
exceptions, while people who praise him come o as empty heads who have nothing to add to the conversation,
only groveling at his feet.
nally baby ashok, I actually don’t mind you calling me zygote etc. I even encourage it. I am not a snow ake like you.
I realize that this your only chance to learn a few biology words. so please go ahead.
NT
ashok, as usual, you haven’t understood a word that Tanmaya explained. while years are counted from the early
supposed date of Jesus birth, his actual date of birth is irrelevant now. if it turns out that the whole Jesus thing is a
myth and that he never was even real, that still does not change the calendar in any way. it is just a convention. I
can’t believe that anyone needs to explain this and that you thought that this was some great point. if someone
discovers that Jesus was de nitely born in 10 BC, no one needs to update the calendar. many educated, secular
people don’t even like the term AD, because it is too religion-speci c and prefer the neutral C.E (common era).
common, only because everyone uses it now, how it started is irrelevant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Era
“So much for logic saving..yes you are wasting time..and killing logic..to the core”
don’t keep embarrassing yourself. it is a fake, stolen story. deal with it, without going into denial. fake because they
were born “around” 150 years apart and historians are sure about the large gap between the two and stolen
because you can’t explain how jaggu’s almost exact presentation is found in a text from 45 years before. he was a
chicken farmer who read as many philosophy books you expect a chicken farmer to read. at least ohso read, even if
in a poor way. so he copies with errors from osho, just like that dumb school classmate who would leans over and
copy from his smarter classmate with errors and any teacher can catch that if they get suspicious. jaggu says he
was never good at studies. osho was.
a lot of people realized by now that many of his sermons are just re-hashed rishi prabhakar, jiddu krishnamurti and
osho rajneesh. only di erence is he hit youtube jackpot with click bait videos and commercialized himself much
better at the exact time when a lot of under educated and misinformed indians like you suddenly came online and
thought he was real. with people like you, it is no coincidence that india today is the biggest fake news country
today in the world where people like you don’t know what is real and what is not, even with Google in hand. you go
by feelings and always get attracted to crap, not facts and call it “digging deep”, yeah digging deep into crap without
checking any sources.
NT
“@NT – Stop wasting your time man, some are beyond logical saving.”
Tanmaya, I missed this line earlier. I think you are right. I do have better things to do. he probably wants to have a
hissy t as the last word and I can let him have that.
Ashok, I only wasted this much time on you even though you appear to be a total lost cause because many
excellent skeptics I listen to as they debunk pseudoscience etc were in fact believers in pseudoscience, godmen and
gurus in the past. most of them never encountered a challenge to their beliefs until in their 20s or even 30s. then
they did and started thinking.
that may not be you, but I believe in splashing cold water on stupid ideas and people who hold them, not be gentle
about it while laughing behind your back and giving fake respect. what you do with this cold bath in the next few
years is up to you.
you can hate logic all you want. but rst read a few books on logic, then hate.
you can hate science and skeptics all you like too, but rst read some books written by scientists, not believe in silly
caricatures and lies by jaggikanth about them, like they don’t enjoy life, humor etc.
which books? I don’t know. ask VJ, he seems to know the good ones and he will be nicer unlike me.
Ashok
Nice desperate diversion…
First prove this 2019..
As you said reading books is good but use your brain..

Even if it’s a science book, don’t blindly believe it..use your grey matter…to know what it is.
i want to have Last word it seems.., LOL.., go on..cry…you won..won..
I din’t know you won arguments just coz someone had a last word..shows your desperation..
And your desperation to seek approval from others shows the credibility of your logic..
Go on bring in all your mates..no one’s running away here…
Btw.. rst prove this is 2019..
Very fact is Jesus date of birth varies by over 2 centuries..clearly depicts you are wrong…
Ashok
Jesus arguably the most famous historical gure in human history…his date of birth is only debatable..
But zygote wastes time in puking huge comments…to prove simple things and calls it intelligence..
But no you were with Aristotle when was born…and you even went to funeral…
All you had to do is share in two lines where is the proof of exact dates of Jesus…
Zygote all you have to do is share proof this is…2019…no you go on diarrhea spree…
Share Exact date of birth of Jesus.
No…go on..puke long useless comments and by doing that expect to win over others..
Why do you have to convince, just show the proof.. you post in desperation to prove your right… insecurity..becoz
you are wrong..
First write your own lines..people on Nirmukta can read the chain conversation and arrive at their conclusion to
decide..why you go on convincing…lifting two two lines..and manipulate the context to your whims..
All you can do is just take what you think is right and not look at the big picture, rst understand the concept..
Simply you take two lines abuse and mama, I won..won…
Ashok
I will make it simple for your diarrheatic brain..as it can’t be stable on a single topic..
First prove this is EXACTLY 2019?
GIVE EXACT dates of Aristotle and Heraclitus.
Just give the 100% exact date and share source.
Simply diarrheating…and trying to claim..you won..you won..
How do you like it? When you get taste of your diarrheatic approach..posting multiple comments and cheating to
convince…
Btw you say it’s waste of time for you…no wonder you are posting useless things…
Go play.. today’s kids need some fresh air..else this is what happens..go.. don’t waste your time..
Let only serious people debate…
Ashok
Like most issues, science and spirituality have been at loggerheads on the concept of reincarnation.
Science has propagated biological death to be the absolute end whereas spiritualists have believed that body is
only a vessel that carries the eternal energetic aspect of our consciousness called the ‘soul’ to its next logical
destination. It is a belief that during this journey, the soul changes many bodies, is reincarnated in many forms, and
goes through many births and deaths before merging with its source – the all-pervading cosmic consciousness.
Stories that were dismissed as absurd, that prove beyond doubt that ‘reincarnation’ is not some wild fabrication of
overly fertile minds.
The story begins on 19th January A six-year-old boyer’s shop by two men. Later, the boy’s body is found on the
outskirts. Six months later, a child is born in another city. Two years pass, and the child starts talking about his
previous house and past parents. Strangely, the boy has a unique birthmark on his neck. The boy then starts
narrating how two men had killed him. The boy’s claims spread across the State and his past-life father hears of it.
He comes to the city with his wife to meet the boy. As soon as the boy sees his past parents, he recognizes them
and hugs them intensely. This story is touchy and truthful at the same time!
This incident is from 1956. A child, Gopal, was born into the Gupta family in Delhi. When Gopal was 2, he started
talking of his past birth. He said that he was Shaktipal from Mathura. He narrated that he had three brothers and
that one of them had shot him to death. He also said that he owned a medical shop called ‘Sukh Sancharak’.
Hearing this, Gopal’s father started investigating. He found that indeed a man called Shaktipal, the owner of ‘Sukh
Sancharak’, had been killed by one of his brothers. When the Shaktipal family came to hear of Gopal, they travelled
to Delhi to meet him. Upon seeing them, young Gopal recognised He was then taken to Mathura where he
recognised everything – his shop and his kids. As surprising this story is, it brings up so many queries to the table of
life!
In 1950, Bholenath Jain’s son Nirmal died of smallpox. A year later, in 1951, a baby boy was born into the family of
B.L. Washarney of Chhata village. He was named Prakash. At the age of four and a half years, Prakash suddenly
claimed to be from Kosikala village, and that his name was Nirmal. To prove him wrong, in 1956, his Uncle took him
to Kosikala village. Once there, he began to recall many incidents. In 1966, Bholenath happened to visit Chhata.
Here, he heard of young Prakash. Intrigued, Bholenath visited the Washarney family. Seeing his father from his past
birth, Prakash instantly recognised He shared with him several incidents which were known only to Nirmal and his
father. Interesting it is, right?
This story is based in Agra. The local postmasterN. Bhargav had a daughter – Manju. As she turned two, Manju
started claiming that she had two houses. Whenever they crossed a big house in Dhuliyaganj, she would point to it,
claiming it was hers. One day Manju was taken to the house. There in front of Prakash Singh Chaturvedi, the owner,
she narrated many incidents that only the Chaturvedi family knew. Later, it was established that Manju was none
other than Prakash Singh’s aunt who died in 1956. Truth and reality, you cannot really put a lid on them, can you?
In 1960, Pravin Chandra’s wife gave birth to a daughter. They named her Rajul. As she turned 3, Rajul started
recalling her past life. She said that her name was Geeta and that she was from Junagarh district. Rajul’s
grandfather investigated the claims and found that a resident of Junagarh – Gokuldas Thakkar, in 1959, had lost his
daughter when she was only two and a half years old. Rajul’s grandfather then took her to Junagarh to meet the
Thakkar family. There, Rajul identi ed her previous birth’s family members, including the temple where her mother
used to worship. Blessed in a sense, isn’t it?
L.Mishra of Chatrapur district, Madhya Pradesh had a daughter named Swarnlata. Right from early childhood,
Swarnlata used to say that she was from Katni and that she had two sons. At her insistence, when her family took
her to Katni, she identi ed her two sons and also various places of Katni. Investigations revealed that 18 years back,
a woman named Bidiyadevi had died from heart attack. Swanlata also revealed the changes that were made to the
house after Bindiyadevi’s death. This really is something to ponder about, right?
With more such proofs like the above reaching the shore of reality, science certainly is trapped in a web of logics,
which solely deals with proofs and reasons.
Having so many mysteries to deal with, past-life recollection or re-birth adds another hurdle which science could
never interpret with reasons. Whatever it may be, you can always push your thinking to that X level while reading
these real-life amazing stories.”
Content taken from “6 Astounding Real Life Past-life Recollection & Rebirth Stories
https://guysworld.in/6-astounding-real-life-past-life-recollection-rebirth-stories/
or visit here Home https://guysworld.in/
Ashok
Raghavendra Swami Appeared to British O cial 130 Years After Entering Jeeva Samadhi
https://www.indiadivine.org/raghavendra-swami-appeared-british-o cial-130-years-entering-jeeva-samadhi/
Well, all of us know about the episode of Thomas Munroe and Raghavendra Swamy. However, not many know that
Rarayu himself gave the reason for appearing before Munroe and talking to him. This is the story of Munroe and
Rayaru.
When Munroe visited Mantralaya, he was the Collector of Bellary. He had been o ered the post after the nal
Anglo-Mysore war of 1799 in which Tipu Sultan had been killed.
The British had parceled out the territories of Tipu among their allies and also allowed the Wodeyars to retain lands
in south Karnataka.
The British had decided to keep the territory surrounding Bellary. There were two reasons for this. The last
Vijayanagar Emperor had been pensioned o and his territory taken over by the British. The second reason was
that Bellary and surrounding areas had been the stronghold of Tipu and the British did not want any further
resistance.
Munroe had ordered the revenue o cials to rationalise their system of collection. As temples were centres of
revenue, he wanted the revenue o cials to exercise greater control over them (This is what the Governments in
India do now. They decide to take over a temple or religious institution under the Muzrai Act whenever they wanted
to exercise greater control over them).
The then Government of Madras asked Munroe to ensure that all the revenue from the Raghavendra Swamy
Temple in Mantralaya were remitted directly to the Treasury.
Munroe passed on this order to the revenue authorities who failed to act. When there was reminder from Madras
about the revenue pending from Mantralaya, Munroe decided to take matters in his own hand and decided to visit
Mantralaya.
raghavendra-01
It was sometime in 1800 when Munroe came to Mantralaya, When he was told about the holiness of the place, he
respectfully removed his shoes and also his hat and entered the matha.
He then walked towards the Brindavana of Raghavendra Swamy and began looking at it. Even as he was watching
the Brindavana, he slowly began seeing a gure seated in the Brindavana.
The gure emerged more clearly to show itself as a saint and Munroe soon began his famous conversation in
English.
The o cials accompanying Munroe and the temple priests looked askance as they saw that Munroe was speaking
with himself. They could not see Rayaru. They were also surprised to see Munroe clutching Mantrakshathe in his
hands.
Munroe went back without collecting the revenue and wrote an order against collecting revenue from the math and
sent it back to Madras Presidency.
This noti cation, deciding not to collect revenue from Mantralaya, was published in the Madras Gazette, Chapter XI
and page 213, under the heading “Manchali Adoni Taluka.”
I have seen this order in Fort St. George. A copy of this order is also in the possession of the matha in Manthralaya.
Let me go back to the story of Munroe and our Rayaru. Soon, the news of Munroe having spoken to Raghavendra
Swamy spread far and wide. There were celebrations in Mantralaya over the issue.
However many devotes, matha o cials and even the priests of the temple were disappointed that Rayaru chose to
appear and speak before a Britisher while they were denied any such privilege. “What is so great about Munroe
that Rayaru gave him darshana,” they asked.
The Pradhana Archaka of the Raghavendra Swamy Temple and others were discussing the eposode regularly and
voicing their disappointment that they had so far not been given any such darshan.
One night, Rayaru appeared in the dreams of the Pradhana Archaka, who was also a party to the discussion, and
told him that there was a speci c reason for physically coming before Munroe.
Rayaru disclosed that when he was on earth as Prahalada in Krita Yuga, one of his classmates was Munroe. Rayaru
durng his previous avatars was Prahalada, Balika Raja (He was killed in a mace ght in the Kurukshetra war by
Bheema. He had to ght against the Pandavas as he ws asked to do so by Bheesma, his kin) and Vyasa Raja.
raghavendra-05
He also told the Pradhana Archaka, that Munroe had been assigned a task to be completed and he could do that
only in his later avatar as a British o cial. Munroe, Rayaru, said had repaid the debt by waiving o the revenue. He
had, therefore, the unique privilege of seeing Rayaru and conversing with him.
By the way, there is a statue of Munroe in Chennai. The statue shows him seated on a horse without a saddle. The
statue was made by Francis Legatt Chantrey, the famed English sculptor. There is another reason to remember
Munroe. He set up a committee in 1826 to look into the issue of public instruction in Madras region. One of the
recommendations of the committee was to set up Presidency College in Madras.
https://www.indiadivine.org/raghavendra-swami-appeared-british-o cial-130-years-entering-jeeva-samadhi/
Gazette Noti cation of the incident
https://i0.wp.com/sriraghavendra.weebly.com/uploads/1/5/5/2/1552520/9243505.jpg
Tanmaya
@NT: This is why we don’t speak Shakespeare to monkeys
Oh well, it was worth a shot. I’m just deeply saddened by how education fails the youth in India even in this day and
age of globalization and internet. Good for Jaggi though, seems like he’ll be relevant atleast for a few more years. It
was hard to get my wife out of Isha as well, but after a few tries it happened, probably because she wasn’t as thick-
skulled as our dear friend Ashok.
In other news, I was in the Caribbean for holidays and a street vendor was trying to sell me these beads resembling
Rudrashka, I demonstrated the ideomotor e ect to them and they were amazed hah. Got them to replicate as well.
Was fun.
Ashok
@Tanmaya: That is why I don’t complicate things to donkeys
First prove this is exactly 2019?

Give exact date of Jesus Birth?
As for Rudarksh and your ideometer e ect…buy a Genuine, energized/consecrated and wear the Ek Muki or One
faced Rudarksh..it will make sure you don’t live in a family atmosphere or ensure you have clashes with people
around you..
..you will replicate your wife as this time you will be going to Isha…that will be fun too..
Intelligence has nothing to do with globalization and internet..if your thrown in middle of jungle…your intelligence
has to be in di erent things…you might build a space ship single handedly..but in jungle.. mosquitoes will suck the
so called Smartness..and put you in your place.
You don’t become intelligent by being scienti c…a poet, a carpenter, a gardener, a farmer all are equal and equally
intelligent in their own way..
Just that in today’s technological world, scientists are usually given more credit…
Only because we are technology oriented world, science has a great advantage..
If humans were such creatures or lived in a habitat where they can y by themselves, had unlimited memory,
physically as good as machines and not get emotional..science would be just like literature…
Imagine a human can y, never eat food, not emotional at all and leads life. We won’t be dependent on science so
much…
So that doesn’t mean literature has no place in the world, it is as equal as science.
So science, literature or even any other subject and the people in those subjects, all are equal
It was double fun to interact with thin-greymatter folks as our dear friend @NT alias NT and you @Tanmaya too…
Thanks
Ashok
NT
@Tanmaya: I can only imagine how frustrating it was for you.
I have friends who did masters in US, nothing fancy, just 1.5 year non-thesis courses in engineering, went on to get
IT jobs. they imagine themselves to be intelligent, but I can’t nd any intellectual di erence between them and their
parents who just studied to 8th class or less. they believe in the same nonsense and then some. no ability to think
whatsoever. education has de nitely failed them, the basics are absent.
the other irony with these frauds like Jaggu is no scientist or logical person ever suggested they were trying to
entirely understand the world by themselves. real scientists can take something like a termite nest on some
obscure island and study it for their whole lives. talk about meditation. they work for contributing to collective
understanding, not personal delusions.
these stupid godmen who fake to understand the whole universe by doing nothing then turn around and mock
people who actually work, in some weird reverse logic that it is futile to even try to understand the universe, and no
one listening to them is smart enough to get the irony, just like irony of complaining about Aristotle’s fake dress
accounts while wearing a costume oneself.
a guy who won’t pass basic 9th grade biology who wants to give lectures about what life or science is or isn’t
deserves to be tarred and feathered. there need to be viral videos that mock and ridicule these idiots. nityananda
and a few others are already being mocked because he makes it so easy. but there is also enough material to make
a comedy show ridiculing jaggu using his own clips.
sample:
scene 1: jaggu explains that blood has iron and so we should sleep to north, to a comedic sound track.
scene 2: jaggu runs screaming away from an MRI machine after being told that its magnets are 140,000 times
stronger than earth’s magnetic eld because he thinks his blood will all come out due to iron in it.
sharing videos mocking dumb godman logic should become hip and cool.
Ashok
Your intelligence and science is only as relevant as the time and environment you are living.
If I throw you in the middle of a desert, not much of your science gyan will be useful..
Most will be irrelevant or useless.
If you are in middle if ocean again, you will need a di erent level of intelligence.
I am not speaking about survival, I am telling even if you have all the science gyan, it’s not at all relevant in such a
situation.
Right now you are thinking everything from your current scenario.
Your current science and knowledge is only relevant because of you comparing it with the technological world you
live in.
In short I think there are animals are more intelligent than humans.
We are just dominant because current situation favours us along with technology we created, trust me the day
nature breaks down, ozone gets punctured or something really catastrophic happens, cockroaches might survive.
All science and technology can only do so much.
So our intelligence is not superior, nor is science superior.
Science cannot be a yardstick to decipher everything…
Everything in world, every subject, every creature if situation favours they will be the smarter, dominant species.
Man with all science and technology technology can only do so much.
If nature turns tide a whole of other creatures will suddenly be superior than humans…they will think we are
dumb..
We already don’t know what animals think about..
You assume they think we are superior..
Try taking a ant, snake or Scorpio. They damn care your Einstein or Jaggi..or NT or Ashok..
All creatures are intelligent and unique in their own way.. scienti cally your views are right but all views cannot be
judged scienti cally
Ashok
Humans not smarter than animals, just di erent, experts say Phys.org)
—Humans have been deceiving themselves for thousands of years that they’re smarter than the rest of the animal
kingdom, despite growing evidence to the contrary, according to University of Adelaide experts in evolutionary
biology.
“For millennia, all kinds of authorities – from religion to eminent scholars – have been repeating the same idea ad
nauseam, that humans are exceptional by virtue that they are the smartest in the animal kingdom,” says Dr Arthur
Saniotis, Visiting Research Fellow with the University’s School of Medical Sciences.
“However, science tells us that animals can have cognitive faculties that are superior to human beings.”
He says the belief that humans have superior intelligence harks back to the Agricultural Revolution some 10,000
years ago when people began producing cereals and domesticating animals. This gained momentum with the
development of organised religion, which viewed human beings as the top species in creation.
“The belief of human cognitive superiority became entrenched in human philosophy and sciences. Even Aristotle,
probably the most in uential of all thinkers, argued that humans were superior to other animals due to our
exclusive ability to reason,” Dr Saniotis says.
While animal rights began to rise in prominence during the 19th century, the drive of the Industrial Revolution
forestalled any gains made in the awareness of other animals.
Professor Maciej Henneberg, a professor of anthropological and comparative anatomy from the School of Medical
Sciences, says animals often possess di erent abilities that are misunderstood by humans.
“The fact that they may not understand us, while we do not understand them, does not mean our ‘intelligences’ are
at di erent levels, they are just of di erent kinds. When a foreigner tries to communicate with us using an
imperfect, broken, version of our language, our impression is that they are not very intelligent. But the reality is
quite di erent,” Professor Henneberg says.
“Animals o er di erent kinds of intelligences which have been under-rated due to humans’ xation on language
and technology. These include social and kinaesthetic intelligence. Some mammals, like gibbons, can produce a
large number of varied sounds – over 20 di erent sounds with clearly di erent meanings that allow these arboreal
primates to communicate across tropical forest canopy. The fact that they do not build houses is irrelevant to the
gibbons.
“Many quadrupeds leave complex olfactory marks in their environment, and some, like koalas, have special
pectoral glands for scent marking. Humans, with their limited sense of smell, can’t even gauge the complexity of
messages contained in olfactory markings, which may be as rich in information as the visual world,” he says.
Professor Henneberg says domestic pets also give us close insight into mental abilities of mammals and birds.
“They can even communicate to us their demands and make us do things they want. The animal world is much
more complex than we give it credit for,” he says.
https://m.phys.org/news/2013-12-humans-smarter-animals-experts.html
Just because you are intelligent doesn’t mean you are right. You are right in your own way with reasons, I am right
with valid reasons I have..
Simply because you follow science and look everything through it doesn’t mean you are right.
I repeat all subjects have their own importantce. Science is not superior to any subject nor are other subjects
inferior to science…
So don’t look everything from the yardstick of science. Use science where it’s required
Ashok
Still don’t get it.

I will keep it simple.
Science is not superior to other subjects, just di erent..
Tanmaya
@NT: I completely agree as I have a really smart friend here as well who excels at his job and just a great and calm
person overall. Sadly, he’s really roped into the JV B/S. Just bought a Yantra for thousands of dollars and talks about
the mystical crap to an extent that it makes me doubt his critical thinking from time to time. But I choose to ignore
that and we’re still friends because I just direct the conversation elsewhere and just let him be.
They were trying to get JV in our city and as a volunteer, my wife was in a conference call with other volunteers from
the city and the top volunteers in the states who coordinate the events. Those volunteers were very rude and only
interested in having a big turnout and the money, and that was the last straw for my wife. She hated that whole
experience. I had already shared things about JV with her but that call really did her in. So I’m happy for that
experience. Now there’s no JV lectures or ISHA sounds in my home. Someday if my friend and I become closer and
his wife starts disliking parts of it, that will be the right time to share some of this content with them, but for now
I’m keeping quiet and letting it play out.
We’ve had movies such as PK and OMG try to teach us that all this mystic profundities are nothing but just money
making schemes but the youth still choose to live the sheep live, it’s sad.
I’m moved by your statement of PHDs and the example of one studying termites for life. Gosh, how can someone
with no knowledge or experience discredit generations of work by really smart people dedicating their entire lives
to studying the most minuscule of concepts in great detail? And boast their pseudo-reasoned garbage with such
con dence and vigor? And people actually follow their ‘logic’, lol. And so the blind will lead the blind.
Ashok
October 10, 2019 at 12:10 pm
Science is man made – man is not perfect therefore Science cannot answer everything
Science is an instense study to try and understand the workings of the universe, it is fundamentally awed because
it cannot and will not ever explain the WHY of anything. You cannot ever hope for science to explain everything. For
example Can science be able to explain questions such as why are humans here.
Therefore science can never explain everything.
I reiterate, Science not superior to other subjects, each subject is unique..science is more dominant, because of the
technological world we live in…it is not superior…just di erent..
Ashok
October 10, 2019 at 12:46 pm
Science has contributed innumerable bene ts to human life on planet Earth. We should be deeply grateful for the
hard work of scientists who dedicate their lives to loyal study of this discipline and the advantages scienti c
advances grant us.
Due to its success, there is often a tendency to think that science can explain everything. However, there are
actually many things that science cannot prove. Here are ve categories of truth that cannot be proven using the
scienti c method:
1) Existential Truth: Science cannot prove that you aren’t merely a brain in a jar being manipulated to think this is all
actually happening (think of something like in the movie “The Matrix”.) It also cannot prove that the world wasn’t
created 5 minutes ago with the appearance of age (and with fake memories in your head, and half-digested food in
your stomach, etc). However, it’s still rational to believe that our memories are true and that the world is real.
2) Moral Truth: Science cannot prove that rape is evil. While it is possible to demonstrate, for example, that there
are negative physical or psychological e ects of rape, there is no scienti c test that can prove it is evil. Science can
describe how the natural world is, but moral truth carries an “oughtness” (how things should be) that goes beyond
what merely is.
3) Logical Truth: Consider the statement, “Science is the only way to really know truth.” How could you prove that
statement by science? It is actually self-refuting because there is no scienti c test you could use to prove that it is
true! Science cannot prove logic to be true because it assumes and requires logic in order for it to work.
4) Historical Truth: Science cannot prove that Barack Obama won the 2008 United States presidential election.
There is no scienti c test we could perform to prove it. We could have an investigation if we wanted to con rm that
he did actually win, but the method for proving historical truths is di erent from testing scienti c truths since
historical truths are by nature non-repeatable.
5) Experiential Truth: Science cannot prove that your spouse loves you. When asked why so-and-so loves you, you
may cite precedent (times when their behavior demonstrates their love for you), but this is a particular type of
historical truth. There is no scienti c test that can con rm a lifetime of experience of knowing a person.
None of this is meant to criticize science! There’s nothing wrong with the scienti c method for testing the kinds of
things it was meant to test. However, it would be a mistake to expect it to be able to test everything. There are
more intellectual tools available to us than just science, and as the old saying goes, when all you’ve got is a
hammer, everything begins to look like a nail!
For the kinds of truth listed above, science is not de cient in any way; it’s just not the right way to nd those
particular kinds of truth. To try to do so would be like trying to ascertain whether a banana is tasty by sticking it in
your ear and listening to it; it’s simply the wrong method!
All i am saying is I reiterate, Science is not superior to other subjects, each subject is unique..science is more
dominant, because of the technological world we live in…it is not superior…just di erent.
Ashok
Colin Humphreys is a dyed-in-the-wool materialist. That is, he is professor of materials science at Cambridge. He
believes in the power of science to explain the nature of matter. He believes that humans – like all other living
things – evolved through the action of natural selection upon random mutation. He is also a Baptist. He believes in
the story of Moses, as recounted in the biblical book of Exodus. He believes in it enough to have explored Egypt and
the Holy Land in search of natural or scienti c explanations for the story of the burning bush, the 10 plagues of
Egypt, the crossing of the Red Sea and the manna that fell in the wilderness -and then written a book about it.
“I believe that the scienti c world view can explain almost anything,” he says. “But I just think there is another world
view as well.”
Tom McLeish is professor of polymer physics at Leeds. Supermarket plastic bags are polymers, but so are spider’s
silk, sheep’s wool, sinew and esh and bone. His is the intricate world of what is, and how it works, down to the
molecular level. He delights in the clarity and power of science, precisely because it is questioning rather than
dogmatic. “But the questions that arise, and the methods we use to ask them, can be traced back to the religious
tradition in which I nd myself. Doing science is part of what it means in that tradition to be human. Because we
nd ourselves in this puzzling, extraordinary universe of pain and beauty, we will also nd ourselves able to explore
it, by adopting the very successful methods of science,” he says.
Russell Stannard is now emeritus professor of physics at the Open University. He is one of the atom-smashers,
picking apart the properties of matter, energy, space and time, and the author of a delightful series of children’s
books about tough concepts such as relativity theory. He believes in the power of science. He not only believes in
God, he believes in the Church of England. He, like Tom McLeish, is a lay reader. He has con tributed Thoughts for
the Day to Radio 4, those morning homilies on the mysteries of existence. Does it worry him that science – his
science – could be about to explain the whole story of space, time matter and energy without any need for a
Creator? “No, because a starting point you can have is: why is there something rather than nothing? Why is there a
world? Now I cannot see how science could ever provide an answer,” he says.
Stannard will be one of a small group of scientists and theologians, having a go at the question next week in
Birmingham. The Science and Religion Forum, founded by a group of scientists 25 years ago, meets on Monday to
discuss questions such as the place of humans in the universe. They are not likely to actually come up with an
answer, but they will certainly give the question a bashing. The forum embraces what one of its begetters, Arthur
Peacocke, pioneer of DNA research in Britain, called “wistful agnostics” and sceptics, as well as Christians and
people from other faiths. “It’s about how we can worship a creator God who is creating now, and still hold on to the
scienti c world view as we understand it,” says Phil Edwards, who trained in physics but is now a chaplain to the
Bolton Institute.
The subject – the place of humans in the universe – is a challenge. To the scienti c way of thinking, humans no
more have a “place” in the scheme of things than hamsters or harp seals. The universe itself may be an
incomprehensible event, and life a so far unexplained one, but scientists see no ladder of creation with humans at
the pinnacle. They can see no “purpose” in being. We are here because we are here, a lucky accident – lucky for us –
but there was nothing inevitable about the evolution of humanity, or its survival. God is not part of the explanation.
That is how scientists have grown to think, whether they come from a religious background or not. But modern
science did not emerge 400 years ago to challenge religion, the orthodoxy of the past 2,000 years. Generations of
thinkers and experimenters and observers – often themselves churchmen – wanted to explain how God worked his
wonders. Modern physics began with a desire to explain the clockwork of God’s creation. Modern geology grew at
least partly out of searches for evidence of Noah’s ood. Modern biology owes much to the urge to marvel at the
intricacy of Divine providence.
But the scientists – a word coined only in 1833 – who hoped to nd God somehow painted Him out of the picture.
By the late 20th century, physicists were con dent of the history of the universe back to the rst thousandth of a
second, and geneticists and biochemists were certain that all living things could be traced back to some last
universal common ancestor that lived perhaps 3.5bn years ago. A few things – what actually happened in the Big
Bang; how living, replicating things emerged from a muddle of organic compounds – remain riddles. But few now
consider these riddles to be incapable of solutions. So although the debate did not start out as science versus
religion, that is how many people now see it.
Paradoxically, this is not how many scientists see it. In the US, according to a survey published in Nature in 1997,
four out of 10 scientists believe in God. Just over 45% said they did not believe, and 14.5% described themselves as
doubters or agnostics. This ratio of believers to non-believers had not changed in 80 years. Should anybody be
surprised?
“A lot of people are surprised. I think people have grown up to believe that science and Christianity are at
loggerheads, and that is what the average man in the street believes,” says Colin Humphreys. “I think you can
explain the universe without invoking God at all. And you can explain humans without invoking God at all, I think.
But where I di er from the people who say, OK, the universe started with a big bang – if it did, it’s not too sure but
let’s say it did – and everything else was chance event, then I would say that God is the God of chance and He had
His plan and purpose, which is working out very subtly, but through these chance events.”
He, like most scientists do in this debate, mentions Richard Dawkins, the Oxford zoologist and professor of the
public understanding of science, whose rationalist stance is well known, and vigorously argued.
The real argument here is not about the importance of science, or its value to humanity. “You have to recognise
that science is enormously powerful in going for the jugular, reducing complexity to its simple structures,” says Tom
McLeish. “But it puts it back together again, and that is important to stress, because, from Keats onwards, we have
been accused of unweaving the rainbow, and never weaving it back again. That is not true.”
Doubt, expressed most potently 3,000 years ago in the biblical book of Job, is the greatest scienti c tool ever
invented, he says. To do good science, you have to doubt everything, including your ideas, your experiments and
your conclusions. “People like Richard Dawkins characterise religion as doubtless, tub-thumping, blind certainty.
But it isn’t like that; he knows it is not like that. There is Job, on his ash-heap, doubting everything, but wondering
where the light comes from, and how the hail forms.”
Russell Stannard says that when he became a reader in the Church of England 40 years ago, he was considered a
bit of an oddball. But things have changed. “You get a few scientists like Richard Dawkins and Peter Atkins
[professor of chemistry at Oxford] who at least talk as though they cannot understand how a scientist could
possibly be religious. But I would say that, generally speaking, throughout the scienti c community there is
considerable acceptance that, OK, although one might not be a religious person oneself, one’s fellow scientist can
be.”
Colin Humphreys says that quite a number of his colleagues at Cambridge are also believers. “My impression is –
and it is just an impression – that there are many more scientists on the academic sta who are believers than arts
people.”
Tom McLeish says something similar. He cheerfully o ers several reasons why that might be so, one of which might
be called the postmodernist e ect. “Our dear friends in the humanities do get themselves awfully confused about
whether the world exists, about whether each other exists, about whether words mean anything. Until they have
sorted out whether cats and dogs exist or not, or are only gments in the mind of the reader, let alone the writer,
then they are going to have problems talking about God.”
Within biology itself, there is an intense argument about evolutionary origins of qualities such as altruism -the
sacri ce of self for others – and the enduring belief in God or gods, and an afterlife, with the possibility of some
kind of calling to account. Robert Winston, the fertility pioneer, Labour peer and professor at Hammersmith
Hospital is Jewish. This represents a huge tradition of values that are important to him. At the age of 30 he went
back to the synagogue because, he felt, he needed the discipline of Judaism, although this is not quite the same as
believing in God, and he confesses to having been through various phases of observance. In the last chapter of his
book The Human Instinct he said he felt it was very likely that spirituality – the feeling of something beyond mortal
life – had been important in survival during the Ice Age, and through periods of great deprivation.
“The great question is whether or not that spirituality is God-given, or whether it actually evolved because it was
needed,” he says. “I’m still sitting on the fence.”
Stannard has fewer doubts. “I would say that God does take a personal interest in us. If you were allowed one word
to describe God by, that word would be love. That does not come from evolution by natural selection, it seems to
come from somewhere else, and the whole idea of morals does not naturally arise out of evolution. Biologists will
talk about altruism, but they are using it in a very technical sense, which is not the religious idea of altruism. It is
more a case of you scratch my back and I will scratch yours.”
Richard Dawkins, however, remains unmoved. Is there a limit to what science can explain? Very possibly. But in that
case, what on earth makes anyone think religion can do any better? “I once reached this point when I asked the
then professor of astrophysics at Oxford to explain the origin of the universe to me,” he says. “He did so, and I
posed my supplementary: ‘Where did the laws of physics come from in the rst place?’ He smiled: ‘Ah, now we
move beyond the realm of science. This is where I have to hand over to our good friend the chaplain.’ My
immediate thought was, ‘But why the chaplain? Why not the gardener or the chef?’ If science itself cannot say where
the laws of physics ultimately come from, there is no reason to expect that religion will do any better and rather
good reasons to think it will do worse.”
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/sep/04/science.research
Ashok
From quora – Why do many renowned astrologers predictions go wrong?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-renowned-astrologers-predictions-go-wrong
I don’t know where to start with this but in simple terms- Astrology is a very sacred knowledge and over the period
of time i have realised as an astrologer the more you study and go deeper in it less you care about things and self
correction starts from yourself and at one point money just does not matter at all.All that matters is knowledge in
life.
On the other hand there are so called famous astrologers blasting through FB and youtube regarding various
technicalities of astrology proving how great they really are with so many medals and stripes, or even by getting
awards from each other (similar to monkeys scratching each other backs).
I have met lot of people in this eld including some of the big names and over the period i have realised people
who really know astrology are NOT ON fb and youtube and also more humble and simple human beings and the
ones who are big names worldwide hardly ever predict speci c incidents and moreover uses Jargons which can be
interpreted in number of ways.
Secondly a good astrologer will always take feedback and gets connected to you on a personal level while a famous
astrologer will never have time for you to take feedback.
My suggestion is choose one family astrologer and stick to him in your thick and thin as more he knows you better
he will be able to predict.Just to give you an example how precise a prediction can be I am attaching a screenshot of
someone mailed me asking for help few months back.
I predicted “You will get a job on xyz date where you have do paperwork with goverment as opposite party but will
not be able to sustain there”-Check screenshot.
Hope this small opinion helps.
Ashok
How much truth is in astrology prediction?
80–90 percent depending on skill and knowledge astrologer and also most important factor “Are you destined to
get reading and guidance from divine knowledge.”
Ashok
Is astrology prediction trustworthy?
https://www.quora.com/Is-astrology-prediction-trustworthy
Astrology has got a bad name from people who are not well versed and based on limited knowledge they are
mostly upay-charayas (Remedy givers).
Like I was doing a consultation for an Indian fellow in U.S and concentration of consultation was wife-and troubled
married life.
After few predictions, I asked him on a particular date what happened regarding wife?- He replied “ Wife led case
during that period”
Remember I only knew the problem is there with the wife but no time frame was known to me and no other details
but to go to the root of core issue and explaining to the client is important.
Why did I asked this particular date only as I want to identify the planet causing this event?
Now after few more predictions I asked him something so person which I can’t share but to predict something very
speci c and personal, I started with basic predictions and made sure I am getting a good hold of the chart and
planet behavior then only you know which planet is causing which particular issue and how to solve it by remedies
if possible.
This is how you build a trust in astrology

This is the procedure at least I follow during the consultation to build trust.
1. Start from basic of the chart by nature, parents, nance, spouse.
2. Indicate the good and bad areas of life.
3. con rm few speci c events from past with a narrow time frame of within a week.
Once you did this now the process of trust building is already in place and now carefully examine chart for future
prediction.
Con rm and recon rm future event from 3–4 techniques and systems and dashas.
See if they all aligned up in a time frame and say the almost same thing, Once you did all this that’s it.
Now, the most important thing- Follow up on your predictions by taking feedback regularly.
Ashok
Are horoscopes legitimate? Do they ever come true?
https://www.quora.com/Are-horoscopes-legitimate-Do-they-ever-come-true
I feel its useless to discuss any topic until you have proof in hand.
So a man in trouble booked an appointment that he has been booked wrongly by police in a case -When i will get
free ?
During prediction i told him exactly after 9 days your case will be solved.
Worth mentioning this guy went to several astrologers before me and everyone told him remedy to perform. I told
him do not perform any remedy of throwing things in water or anything else is not required only wait for time
Ashok
How true are horoscope predictions in today’s world?
https://www.quora.com/How-true-are-horoscope-predictions-in-todays-world
As much skilled and knowledgeable your astrologer is- Very simple it is -Its an absolute science but you need to
practice with dedication- I will not bore you with my philosophical knowledge as i don’t believe in convincing people
without proof.
There are experts from live reading below – Tell me how much true it is if i can predict color of shoes she brought
last time- All i knew about her is birth chart and nothing else.
Ashok
What is the extent to which astrology and palmistry can predict accurately? What is your own experience in this
regard?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-extent-to-which-astrology-and-palmistry-can-predict-accurately-What-is-your-
own-experience-in-this-regard
The answer is how much an astrologer want to push the limit to predict and how much an individual astrologer
love to predict.
Astrology is a hobby for me and to make sure the romance of astrology never dies i like to push limits by predicting
to details. If you are unable to predict things to details then its not worth the time invested in astrology.
It is very important for me that more than client i am satis ed with quality of reading otherwise its not worth doing
it. Its always the passion and love of an astrologer towards astrology to predict events in past and future.
For example- Yesterday during read on call i asked someone if has instruction manual of an electronic item in
eastern portion of house. He started laughing and saying how are you doing it. I could have easily said a book is
there but to mention details is the fun part. If you are not getting goose bumps in reading then its not fun.
But remember sometimes it depends on client as well- As i do reading for lot of people online and some of them
are very rude, illogical and ill mannered (Just shows their background) or if they start reading with “I have been to
so many astrologers all of them are fraud” or something on similar lines -If i encounter anything like this i stop
reading and return money very simple.
Now coming to point of accuracy-see examples below and tell me accuracy.
Ashok
Can astrology (Vedic) predict the timing of an event or is there a technique on how to predict the timing of an
event?
https://www.quora.com/Can-astrology-Vedic-predict-the-timing-of-an-event-or-is-there-a-technique-on-how-to-
predict-the-timing-of-an-event
ONE ???- THERE ARE COUNTLESS
There are countless techniques mentioned in astrology and if you are skill instead of learning 100 you will learn
only 10 techniques but master them to a level that you can pin point events with +- 5 day of accuracy.
For example- If you are using only parashari astrology- use vimshottari dasha principles to time an events and to
narrow down use yogini dasha and combine with Varshfal to pin point event.
There are always 2 questions you should ask yourself- Is this event promised ? If answer is Yes then only you go on
to timing. If a particular event is not promised in life it will never happen.
Other day I was giving reading to someone and this guy was not married yet but it can be clearly see in his chart
that married life is going to be a problem so to con rm this I asked him a simple question regarding his house- I
have never been to his house or even know him personally.
Only information I had was his birth chart and based on planetary positions i looked Fungus in particular part of
house-Alage in his house in particular direction. This is the magic of astrology-It still keeps me fascinated everyday
of my life as tell me a technology which only by birth details tells you which portion of your house is spoiled and
which part of your life will be spoiled due to this.
Ashok
How are astrologers able to predict the future?
https://www.quora.com/How-are-astrologers-able-to-predict-the-future/answer/Deepanshu-Giri-1
I have read couple of answer on this post and it really amazed me that no one has given straight answer and tried
to dodge a bullet and some even tried to blame astrologers like some kind of fraud profession and guess work.
To look at any chart require time and practice and constant mediation techniques on daily basis to develop
intuition to see past and present event.
Some techniques are fool proof specially for any major event in life will be shown clearly, Predicting an event is not
an issue what i nd real challenging some times is nding details of events.This is something requires lot of skill
and practice on day to day basis.
See the chat below for one of the client reading today- This gentleman contacted me through quora and requested
for reading-I had no prior information about his ¬-background except his birth details.
As usual i started reading chart before consultation most of times 2 -3 hours before consultation and make some
notes, noted out some of past events of life, problem areas and nally future predictions.
The key to any successful prediction lies in past events, If you can judge past correctly both event and date then
only you can do the future right.
See screenshot of reading. I am very much against the people who are astrologers but they don’t give speci c
details or events and use terms like sun energy or tell a generalised predictions because that is not what astrology
is, Astrologer should be able to give speci c prediction with dates to make sure people get good guidance -
Whatever good or bad chart holds but astrologer should be able to tell it in clear and concise manner otherwise its
not worth the time and money.
Ashok
Is it possible to predict the complexion of your spouse through astrology?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-predict-the-complexion-of-your-spouse-through-astrology
This is a very easy question if you would have read any of classical work not only complexion but also qualities of
wife to certain extent.
The key lies in Venus and navansh of Venus for color of Spouse- For example if Venus occupies sign of Mars in
navansh then color of spouse will be earthy color,Quick to take actions, aggressive, very practical and logical in
approach, has tendency to cheat spouse if a icted.
If Venus occupies sign of Jupiter in navansh then color of spouse will be yellowish, Brahmin qualities in wife with
nature of doing good for all, like sweets to eat, high wisdom and decision making power, loves to read books and
lives in own small imaginary world of dreams, follows principles and do religious deeds, charitable and think about
others before self.
If Venus occupies sign of Mercury then moist skin and color will be of planets navansh occupied by Mercury as
mercury quickly absorbs all qualities of sign and planet it is in conjunction with, jocular in nature, interest in
teaching, astrology, singing, change sides quickly, always look younger than age, business minded.
If Venus is in navansh of Saturn then color will be dark, serious nature, disciplined and tendency to cheat on
partner if severely a icted.
If navansh of Sun then color will be bright and reddish complexion, proudy and egoistic in nature, will compare
everyone to herself and look down upon others, helpful to everyone at time of need.
If navansh of Moon then color will be white and she will have mood swings very easily, indecisive nature, will gain
and loose weight quickly, Love to be intoxicated, cannot be trusted with words.
Ashok
What is the real and logical explanation of truthfulness of Indian astrology to a person? Is it a belief or a bias?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-real-and-logical-explanation-of-truthfulness-of-Indian-astrology-to-a-person-Is-
it-a-belief-or-a-bias
Astrology can never work on belief remedial measures can- There is a di erence between the two.
When you visit an astrologer his predictions of your past cannot be based on your belief as he has to see chart
make a decision in head and tell you few events from past.
Once he is done with past he will tell you some future events which are coming up.
Remedial measures on other hand such as prayers can work on belief as any religion work on belief system.
To give your mind an ease read the prediction below i was giving to someone-while i was sailing on a boat to
persian gulf -sitting outside on deck under full moon.
These predictions are speci c to date and nature, secondly all i knew about this guy except birth detail was that he
is from South Africa living in London.
The logical explanation is in uence of planets on human beings, All an astrologer does is read what chart is saying,
Which particular planet is a ecting him most and then give his predictions based on previous recorded result.
It’s same as Data Science but with more complex rules that computers are not able to solve it so require human
intelligence.
Hope this small explanation helps.
Ashok
Is there any real life story or incident which shows that the predictions made by astrologers are real or fake?
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-real-life-story-or-incident-which-shows-that-the-predictions-made-by-
astrologers-are-real-or-fake
I would have turned blind eye to this question but i saw no body in previous answers had a positive response.
So real life story my friend is-

Astrology and predictions take time on an average 40–50 mins on a chart before even i utter a single prediction.
So as i have always said in previous answers a good astrologer will start from past events of life by doing this he is
con rming your birth time is within 2 min mark.
Once you get past events of life right then you move on to predict future of life – I usually give a broader picture
and mention good and bad time periods.
Vastu-Most people don’t realise their chart has problem due to vastu-I do vastu only from chart which by the way i
have never seen anyone house in real life but by chart i know how speci c items are in house.
Don’t take my words for this read several examples below from my live read.
for someone i have not seen in life or even know his name but i know where is the problem in house with speci c
details so people who are claiming it a guess work should get their heads out.
Ashok
What are some examples of astrological predictions that came true?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-examples-of-astrological-predictions-that-came-true
Some ?? Trust me if you are relying only on some predictions you have read books again.
Every consultation should go 90% above with details in tact of prediction otherwise its a guess work nothing else.
See some portions from my live read below-

This one i did on 30/05/2018 for someone i don’t know but see for yourself prediction and response. I have never
visited his house and infact i don’t even know his full name or city he live in . All i had was chart you can predict up
to any detail you want regarding native.
Ashok
From Quora – Should astrologers be believed?
https://www.quora.com/Should-astrologers-be-believed
As i have always said, Astrologer should only be believed when he gets your past right otherwise NO.
By telling past events what an astrologer is doing he is checking strength of planets at same time he is checking that
birth time is corrected up to 2 min mark.
See some of examples from my live read below in answers to show you how precisely an astrologer will predict.
How true are the astrological predictions? Can they be changed by determination or willpower?
I have written this answer several times before, You can be aware of what is going to happen but can never change
it- NEVER.
All you can do is get prepared for something which is coming just like you get prepared for bad and good weather.
This means if you are better prepared, sometimes even the worst situation can go without a ecting you.
Can you tell whether astrology changes the future of a person?
Regarding Destiny- You are born with it and nobody can change it -You cannot escape from high winds of sea but
surely can adjust the sail of boat to make sure you can use a challenge as an advantage.
For example- If an astrologer tells you after 1 year you will loose job for 2 years so you are mentally prepared and
will reduce expenses and concentrate on savings so during time of no job you can survive.This is the only use of
astrology and nothing else.
Hope this small answer helps.
How can astrologers, de ne your nature, your past and even future with such an accuracy in one or the other
events?
https://www.quora.com/How-can-astrologers-de ne-your-nature-your-past-and-even-future-with-such-an-
accuracy-in-one-or-the-other-events
One word- Practice,
when i started learning astrology i was so fascinated by this science and slowly i started learning di erent methods
on how to predict but trust me on following points.
You can study for years but will still not be able to predict anything as you need intuition to describe how an event
will happen. This is something which will come as god gift.
I consistently worked on minor and major predictions of life by paying attention to details- Try to read between
lines -A classical dictum does not mean what it actually says, Nobody is going to teach you so get help by
meditation and other energy sources.
Keep it simple- Instead of learning 100 techniques- Learn only 3 but practice it to a point that you can predict
perfectly with it.
Instead of criticism other astrologer and their techniques and joining FB groups and making a circle and watching
Youtube videos(Specially NO)-Instead of going out, Try to go inside so thoughts of other people does not disturb
you, Develop a thought process to generate new techniques on your own- It takes time but once it’s their you will
achieve so much peace in yourself.
Read classics regularly-Pick a classic whichever you like and try to decode every dictum, Its a long process and takes
time, Look at charts where dictum is not working and see why, How it has modi ed , You need strong 8th house
connection to 5th and a very strong Rahu to see something which is not written.
Pray regularly to classical book whichever you are reading for help and trust me with enough consistency thing will
get much easier-You cannot learn astrology on your own.
Stay humble- Even with your predictions comes true still stay humble and keep practising that “i don’t know
anything yet” and be open to learn anything new- The most miserable people i met in this eld were those who
believe they knew everything and everyone else is a “Monkey on a roller skates” and closed to learning anything
new.
Arrogant and Abusive -however predictions of these people only never came true.
Hope this helps.
Ashok
What is the scienti c proof of astrology?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-scienti c-proof-of-astrology
Proof is predictions- You see every subject or study has its own ways for experiment and in astrology its by
predictions.
You can’t take statistics and say its not working -It’s a coded science and takes years of experience and practice to
see what a particular verse actually means.
To clear your doubts- See some of example predictions below from my live reading-I have never met these people
before or visited their house, All i had is there chart in hand.
For example- How did i knew that she had marriage breakups before and reason is Money plant on roof ?
Ashok
How do I determine about the spouse’s location, distance, direction and family using D1 and D9 charts in astrology?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-determine-about-the-spouses-location-distance-direction-and-family-using-D1-
and-D9-charts-in-astrology
You can know most of things regarding your spouse provided you pay attention to details in chart by reading
through nakshtra rising in 7th cusp, 7th lord and nakshatra lord of 7th Cusp for example –
If 7th house rising in nakshtra of Anuradha -A very devoted spouse like Radha to a krishna. Dhanista rising in 7th
house Cusp- Separation in inevitable. Also if lord of 7th goes in nakshtra of Anuradha in D-9 then also very devoted
wife but in later years.
All you need to do is practice continously and see every married couple chart with details for example- Why did it
rain in marriage of some people ? Why someone loose job just after getting engaged ?
Anyhow practice is the key-and below is example on what you can see from spouse chart.
Does astrology ever fail?
Yes Several times but it depends on astrologer how much skill does he has.
There will be few combinations in chart which will never go wrong and sometimes events will happen but not in
same way you imagine.
How scienti c is astrology?
https://www.quora.com/How-scienti c-is-astrology
Astrology is more over like data science where certain combinations in chart will deliver certain results in life timing
can be varied depending on dasha sequence and transits but results will be delivered for sure.
Now to interpret any result or combination you need to have that kind of skill- I am telling you a simplest technique
of astrology- Think about worst year of your life -Exact 12 years after you will have a bad year again.
Above technique is only a transit of Jupiter but when you combine all transits with natal chart combinations
sometimes its amazing what can you predict out of it.
I did a live read for someone who contacted me through quora tell me a science which can predict that someone
has blocked tear glands at birth.
No one can do it except astrology – How i did it is very simple read BPHS chapter in 2nd house combinations and
predict everything regarding eyes and wealth.
Ashok
Do you agree that Nadi Astrology is just another money-making technique?
https://www.quora.com/Do-you-agree-that-Nadi-Astrology-is-just-another-money-making-technique
The way you are asking question is means you think other forms of astrology is also money making technique.
Deepanshu Giri’s answer to How much do honest astrologers earn in India?
Honestly there are genuine nadi astrologers and there are fake like in any other profession depends on whom you
go to.
I know a very big hospital in delhi who operate open heart surgery on a blink of a eye to mint money but that
doesn’t mean all doctors are fake.
Please read some of my example predictions below regarding doubt on astrology anyhow I don’t practice nadi but i
have seen some good nadi predictors who are genuine.
Deepanshu Giri’s answer to Do you believe in astrology, and why or why not?
Can predictions of an astrologer be trusted? What is the concept of astrology?
https://www.quora.com/Can-predictions-of-an-astrologer-be-trusted-What-is-the-concept-of-astrology
Hello,
Let me answer your second question rst- Concept- If you look in broader terms this is a data science which ancient
Hindu seers observed planets in Sky and experience various results of planets on earth.
The observed that particular planet in particular part gives good or bad result and they keep on noting and passed
on this scared knowledge to next generation and this science evolved from there.
Second Can astrologer be trusted is same as “Can Doctor be trusted ?” -If an Astrologer has studied well enough
then yes he can be trusted.
The most easiest way to trust any prediction of an Astrologer is -Don’t tell him anything about you and let him
predict from past events of life- If he can get that right then only trust his future predictions.
As if an astrologer who cannot predict past will not be able to predict future at all-Very simple.
Can astrology predict my career
https://www.quora.com/Can-astrology-predict-my-career
I think that is the reason people visit astrologers-Astrology picks up everything in those 12 houses- But predicting a
career is not a big deal- I will not even consider it a prediction if someone tells me that next year your career will be
good or bad, promotion etc.
This is not astrology at all- Maybe at basic level astrology, you can call it-The real worth of visiting an astrologer is
when an astrologer tells you in one line story of your life.
The worth of astrology is when not only astrologer tells there is a problem but also which karma you did that
problem happened.
Let me share some examples-

I was doing a reading for an independent lawyer and he was asking why my profession has a problem- All I asked
him was that age of 32 did you work on a case which was related to property?
The reason was He favored the wrong side while ghting a case and that karma is hitting him back and there is no
remedy to it.
He replied yes that was a rst independent case he fought.
So the purpose of astrology is not limited only to tell you profession and trust me if you are only limited to that kind
of astrology- You are living in a dreamland- Astrology is far beyond than just predicting career.
A very big Delhi businessman I was doing a consultation over phone-I asked him did last year your old employee
came back and due to him a very heavy loss has happened to you- when he said yes- I said then don’t worry as now
things will go ne as past life sister came as an employee to take her money back now your debt is over and will
progress in business.
As an astrologer, you don’t only tell an event but also reason that which karma is hitting you back.
Hope it helps you understand some basic of astrology.
Ashok
How is astrology valid?
https://www.quora.com/How-is-astrology-valid
Only for one reason- Past and Future Predictions.

One of the Lawyer came to me that his business is not going well -As an astrologer, it is very easy to tell when
business is going to pick up but what is a real challenger as an astrologer is “Why he is facing this trouble?” Which
karma of the past has brought him this trouble?
I asked him “At the age of 32 did you fought a case which was related to property or Inheritance?”
This was the rst case-What he did- He favored a wrong side in it and that karma has come to haunt him back.
Please tell me a science which can tell you that “Please tell me science which can tell you at this particular age you
did something that is why you have a problem now.”
Ok, let us look at another prediction for the same person as I have a habit that before I predict future -I generally
pick up several past events with a fair degree of accuracy to predict.
I have never ever met this guy in my life- How do I know he has Kitchen in North and age of 24 he had a dispute in-
house and money was earned through dispute- Also In North portion of the house he keeps money and someone
is stealing money from it.
Astrology is more valid than any other science- I have shown this with my several examples not once or twice but at
least 100 times and will keep posting to show the power of astrology.
About 2 weeks back I was doing career consultation for someone and apart for the career I saw something which
was about to happen-So I gave her advice regarding relationship -that be careful break is about to happen.
No amount of programming or AI can predict that you are about to have a break in relationship and travel will be
involved only astrology can do it.
See the screenshot
What is the science behind wearing rings of various gems and stones?
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-science-behind-wearing-rings-of-various-gems-and-stones
Read carefully and Choose your gemstone accordingly- The real science behind stones I am going to reveal today-
Our mood and body condition depends on di erent acids and hormones released by brain and body and di erent
planetary elements control di erent hormones in our body.
Yellow Sapphire – Jupiter controls Acetycholine- Jupiter is life force according to astrology
By the release of Acetylcholine -Enhances energy and stamina, Peace, Alertness- Lifeforce.
It releases growth hormone and develops an immune system, Promotes deep sleep and activates the release of
di erent mineral and chemical that are useful for the growth of body and brain. It gives a soothing e ect.
Ruby for Sun

Sun controls -Dopamine- Nero transmitter triggering
Dopamine has a function in behavior and cognition, Voluntary movement, motivation and rewards, Feelings of
compassion, pleasure and controlled motor movements.
Red coral for Mars-

Mars controls- Norepinephrine produced by the adrenal medulla is a stress hormone that increases blood
pressure, anxiety, tension, hate.
All these are anyhow actions of Mars only.
Cat eye for Ketu-
Ketu controls Cortisol- Rejections, block -dispute, Indi erent- This is released in response to Stress – People who
are depressed have excess cortisol in the blood. This has a close relation to Norepinephrine (Element of Mars) as
both are produced in the adrenal cortex.
That is why our ancestors marked Ketu as Mars.

I have written only 4 for example similarly there are a total of 9 substances (Nav-ras)controlling you every day and
by increasing and decreasing any of them controls element in a body.
So when an astrologer prescribes a particular gemstone to increase or decrease a particular hormone in the body it
results in a change in attitude.
For example one of my cousins approached me as his kid in 7th standard and whole school complains about him
and even in the home his behavior is not good with siblings and mother- Now this kid has very aggressive attitude
due to Mars in particular position in the chart.
I prescribed him a bracelet to cool him down and from day 4 he had this result that he started to cool down and
thanked me enough as this was getting out of hand.
what that stone did is start increasing energy of Venus and Moon in the body resulting him to cool down.
How did astrology come into existence? Why do people believe in it so much?
https://www.quora.com/How-did-astrology-come-into-existence-Why-do-people-believe-in-it-so-much
To solve problems in life-Maharishi Prashar knew humans will be unable to control the desires of the human body
and will do acts which are forbidden- For example – If someone conceives in dark or full moon nights the child born
will have a mental disorder.
Then in BPHS, he wrote- If a child is born on this particular tithi -This the procedure of Remedy.
Astrology came in existence to tell people why they are su ering in current life and how to come over any major
obstacle.
We all have debt in our life which we carry over from past life’s and once this debt gets over the life of the person
gets uplifted.
Most of the time I only look at the chart and tell why there is a problem and xing that small issue in-house solves
the problem. Only 1% of people come for past life pending karma reading and one who comes either runs away
half of the reading when I tell various events of life or cry during reading when they realize how a certain person
was past life son -Who came for help.
People ask for help or love/hate or ght with you because you are radiating a energy which is asking them to do it.
For example- One of my friends asked me over the phone -You have never given me a stunning prediction and I
said ok Ask whatever you want- He only told me the combination of 7th house-
“I told him that his wife will have some kind of disease which will be hidden at the time of marriage and this will be
to reason as his maternal grandfather has spoiled water source, He should construct a water source to provide free
water to people.
To which he replied GF had a problem which was hidden for 5.5 yrs of relationship and grandfather had a habit to
always pee outside on road and the day his family started distributing water for free in a religious temple – the
nancial condition of the family started getting better.
So you see how removing a past life karma helps you move up in life.”
Read more about past life pending karma reading examples here- Maybe if I get 1000 pre-book order- I will launch
a book on this, How to see pending karmas.
See the example below when someone has a problem with the family of husband and how to solve it.
Another example-Where someone was getting proposals for marriage but not getting married and couldn’t gure
out why?
See screenshot
Ashok
Do astrological remedies really work?
https://www.quora.com/Do-astrological-remedies-really-work
Yes, they do and that is why -three whole chapters were written by Maharishi Parashar on remedial measures and
as Maharishi Parashar coded everything-He coded remedies as well.
Let me start with this- I am totally against any astrologer who listens to your problem and after listening tells you
these are a remedial measure for this problem.
An astrologer should start with predictions of past as sometimes the remedy will be as simple as “Give respect to
younger brother’s wife”- I was looking at a chart of someone and he was experiencing a lot of obstacles in Bhagya-
All I asked him was-How is a relation to younger brother’s wife and he replied not good as she is in not in good
terms with us.
“The reason she complained all the time about us is that we don’t respect her”
You see in past life also they never respected her and in this life as well she has come back – only for what? to ask
for “Respect” nothing else she is asking.
All I told him was – Give Respect and things will change for you in business.
on 22/12 I was doing a reading for someone and he had a lot of trouble at home due to nance and childbirth and
marriage- Only thing I asked him was –
How many times have you changed a Guru ??

He Replied- 4 times-All of them wants to mint the money.
You know the real reason was-Past life he has acquired wealth from guru and in this life, his sub-conscious brain
has a fear that guru will ask money back.
The only remedy is committing to one guru and stick to him and your life will be sorted.
This is a pure karmic remedy and that is why my consultation hour goes up to 2–3 hours of consultation- As its
impossible as an astrologer to give a remedy in 15 mins- You need to read the energy from the chart.
A lot of energy and time goes in this -Sometimes for younger kids -I suggest remedies which are easier to do and
moreover balancing a panch-tatwa.
A Mumbai based Doctor couple approached me from Quora regarding their 3-year-old daughter as she gets
terri ed while sleeping every day and don’t even speak more than 2–3 words.
All I did in the chart of that kid is change the energy around her and see the result.
Every chart has a di erent remedy-You need to have a look by observing behavior and pattern of life, Read chart in
and out to see what is the one thing he will do to get a lot of relief.
How do I learn to make astrological predictions from horoscopes?
https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-learn-to-make-astrological-predictions-from-horoscopes
I understand your dilemma as I have seen a lot of people who do have a lot of knowledge but they don’t know how
to practically use it- I have decided to make complicates sholkas and sutras very simple and explain in a most
simple manner I can.
For an example- Look at the chart below to nd a reason why he is born?
Sutra is – Sun is the cause of all creation- So let us look at the natural work assigned by nature to him.
Sun is 5th lord sitting in Lagna exalted in the nakshatra of Bharani and 1st and 5th house changed signs-
Nakshatra lord of Sun is sitting in 5th house-This person should do something related to teaching as nakshatra of
Sun in 3rd house – the 3rd house is preaching – This person decodes Bhagwat for masses and preaches them
about religion.
While the Venus Ketu trine shows problem or delay in marriage or a very spiritual wife, Which he is destined to get.
I have courses which will cover how to predict from absolute basics of astrology. I have given all the details on my
website- lunarastro regarding this, As I have always said in past basics are the key for prediction.
It is going to be a very small batch so I can give personal attention to everyone present- Even if someone has 10
years of experience in astrology- This is a must course as for rst time ever- I am going to give out secrets for
prediction. The current batch already has people with 12–15 years of experience as well as absolute beginners in
course.
I am going to explain several logics like this on my channel Lunar Astro to learn- how to predict in astrology.
Why does astrology make sense? I believe it does but can’t articulate why.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-astrology-make-sense-I-believe-it-does-but-cant-articulate-why
There is something called as Faith, You have to take a trust fall in life to learn astrology and trust on predictions of
an astrologer.
In this example, I am going to explain 2 di erent people with a di erent attitude towards astrology who came for
consultation.
Let me explain with an example-One of my regular clients is a Dr. Couple based in the metro city in India-First time
they approached me was regarding there 3-year-old daughter who was unable to speak.
Once they did few remedies and felt an immediate good e ect and they gave me feedback was this.
Now again this couple visited me but this one of them had a problem in the stomach from last 8–9 years -A
constant pain in one side of stomach.
I again saw the combinations and gave remedy to be performed-
Below are the results.
See the above example are for people who have a great amount of trust not only on me but in astrology as general-
On the other hand, there will be people when you do their consultation you feel exhausted because doesn’t matter
what remedy you tell them they will come up with an excuse not to perform.
For an example-I told someone to recite a particular chant every morning to see e ects and she came back with an
excuse -That it’s very di cult to pronounce and tongue twisting and taking more than 30 mins.
See two people taking consultation from the same astrologer- As an astrologer putting the same amount of e ort
in both charts but one is getting the result and another one is not the only di erence is trust- One of them due to
trust perform remedies and get results and another nd excuses to not perform anything.
To learn more about astrology subscribe to my channel- Lunar Astro
Ashok
The intention is not spam or prove i am right.
Please read all the posts shared from Quora.

O course there will still be naysayers but nobody can deny that there things beyond the scope of science.
You just can’t deny it now.
You can go on “”picking lines**to prove these things wrong, but read all the posts, surely no ONE CAN DENY there
is truth in such things upon careful study.
Science is as good as any other subject in the world. NO less, NO more..
NT
Actually Ashok, your intent is exactly and only to spam and I think you are dishonest ISHA scum having a meltdown.
Ashok
Still do not agree there are things beyond science.
Do these at your home.
Vastu defects and their harmful e ects
Jan 29, 2014
Vastu plays a vital role in balancing the positive and negative energy in a home or in one’s life. The vastu can bring
good positive energy and the vastu defects will cause negative energy that symbolize death, violence and negative
aspects of life. Following are some vastu defects and their harmful e ects.
North Direction: The north direction is associated with the overall nancial condition of the residents. Any potential
vastu defect in the northern direction of the house could very well translate into lack of adequate nances,
unexpected increase of expenses, loans, poverty impacting the overall economic situation.
As per vastu principles make sure that there is no clutter or bathroom located in the northern direction of your
home. Even having a kitchen in the northern direction is not advisable. Any cut or extension in the construction in
the north direction could also be the cause of vastu defect.
Eastern Direction: If you are facing di culty in getting recognition along with health issues and strained
relationship, the bad vastu energy is in the eastern side of your house. According to vastu principles, placement of
stairs, bathroom, kitchen and high-rise walls in the eastern direction cause a negative e ect on the residents of the
house.
Make sure that eastern areas of your house have some open areas attracting natural light in the mornings. East is
considered to be one of the most important directions and any clutter or cut or unwanted extension that is not in
balance with the overall energy dynamics of the house can cause a potential vastu defect.
West Direction: Big windows, electric motors, well, pit or unwanted extensions and cuts are all prohibited in the
western direction as per vastu guidelines. Having a bad western element in any house can cause chest disease and
poverty to the residents. If the youngest daughter of the house undergoes extreme su ering and despair, chances
are that it is because of the bad vastu energy emitting from the western direction.
South Direction: Having a dining hall, septic tank and sewage disposal plants are all prohibited in the south
direction as per vastu principles. Bad e ects of a negative south direction can lead to legal disputes, loss of work,
lack of fame and eye related problems for the residents.
North East: North east direction is another signi cant direction, as it covers the aspect of fortune and luck as per
vastu principles. Any vastu defect in the north eastern direction can cause misfortune. From family disputes to
accidents, surgeries, legal discords and a general sense of disappointment in all walks of life can all be linked to a
bad vastu element in the north east direction. Make sure that north eastern areas of your house do not include
kitchen, bathroom, over head tank, store room or stair case. Heavy items should also be kept away from the north
eastern areas of the house to decrease the negative vastu in uence.
North West: Main entrance, underground water tank, temple and kitchen space are all prohibited in the North West
direction as per vastu principles. If your house has a negative in uence by placement of any such locations in the
North West direction, immediate change is recommended. Bad e ects of a bad vastu complaint North West region
could lead to legal and mental problems, heart disease and even untimely death in some extreme cases.
South East: Having a main entrance, bore well or septic tank in the south east direction o ers negative results as
per vastu guidelines. Any bad vastu energy emitting from the south eastern direction a ects the peace of mind of
its residents. General feeling of fear, lack of positivity, domestic issues and unwanted fear of theft are some of the
common defects e ecting residents with vastu defects in south east.
South West: Underground water tank, temple, kitchen, basement and any sewage disposal plants should never be
constructed in the south west direction. The south west direction controls the personal relationships of the
residents of any house. Any negative energy emitting from the south west direction could lead to loss of money,
domestic problems between husband and wife, lack of promotion and delay in marriage.
Do what an all is said NOT TO BE DONE in this and then see what happens to you or home.
NT
https://www.autism.org.uk/about/behaviour/meltdowns.aspx
A meltdown is ‘an intense response to overwhelming situations’. It happens when someone becomes completely
overwhelmed by their current situation and temporarily loses behavioural control. This loss of control can be
expressed verbally (eg shouting, screaming, crying), physically (eg kicking, lashing out, biting) or in both ways.
this is the online version of melt down, copy and paste as many large texts as possible to try and drown out your
horrible performance.
Ashok
Here i will list out some exact Vastu DO NOT’S.
Do this at your home and see what happens.
Surely you will face problems.
https://www.vastushastraguru.com/north-east-vastu-dosh-remedies/
There are multiple ways a vastu dosh can occur in North East part of a home and hence to make it easier for you to
comprehend North East vastu doshas, we’ve created a list of vastu defects.
North East Vastu Dosh List
Toilet in North East

Kitchen in North East
Bedroom in North East
Staircase in North East’
Cut in North East corner
Overhead water tank in North East
Septic tank in North East
A kitchen in North East is considered very inauspicious in vastu shastra.
In fact do these maximum items in North East and see what happens.
https://www.vastushastraguru.com/south-west-vastu-dosh-remedies/
South West Vastu Dosh List
Toilet in South West
Kitchen in South West
Cut in South West direction
Cut/extension in West and large opening/windows in West
Home entrance or main door in South West
Bore well or underground water tank in South West
Again these are general. That means its not usually good to go out in rain, as you have more chances of getting
cold.
Similarly, if 10 people do these Vastu DO NOT’s in their home, surely atleast more than 5 will face the e ects.
A lot depends on the individual horoscope and how strong his destiny is, how his current time is running.
This is how it works. A lot of factors have to be taken into consideration.
For eg: For some people south door will be auspicious.
The problem is when it comes people know the nuances.
But when it comes these things rst only it is assumed it is bogus.
Later when one says there are other factors then say its reason to escape that their prediction did not come true.
As i said out of 10 people who do these Vastu “DONOTS’s” will surely face the e ects.
You just need to give it some time.
If you want immediate results. Do this.
Build Toilet/Restroom in NORTH EAST.
Build Underground Sump in SOUTH WEST.
Ensure there always WATER in SOUT EAST corner in the house and see if SOUTH EAST CORNER is bigger than
NORTH EAST.
Make kids sleep in SOUTH WEST room.

PARENTS or adults sleep in NORTH WEST room.
Kids will start to dominate parents.
Any of you just do these few changes i mentioned and See what happens..
Ashok
Oops small Comment Correction:
The problem is when it comes to SCIENCE people know the nuances or ready to know why it did not happen as per
expectation.
But when it comes these things like astrology, vastu, spirituality, rst only it is assumed it is bogus.
People are not ready to know the nuances like how they know the principles of science
Ashok
https://www.slideshare.net/homeworkping6/202175889-vastucasestudy
Vastu Remedies Case Studies
Yes as i said you can call this fake.
So i suggest see the Vastu defects in the case study and do it to your place or shop etc.
See what happens, you will know if Vastu is fake.
Do maximum changes whichever is possible, one or two might not impact. I am not suggesting to renovate your
premises to test vastu defect.
Just saying whatever changes can be done, please do it, and see how it e ects you..
Ashok
Hey Skum NT case, get to the point. You are the one with the meltdown..in the name of data diarrhea and just
blindly read data…and assume…
The posts i have made have no mention of ISHA..
So much for your scienti c temper, which is full of only stinking diarrheatic assumptions…
I don’t care what you say about Isha or Sadhguru…you abuser..
It only shows your character..
If you can’t debate without abuse,,go cry..
Ashok
Just reply what is being shared or go sit in the bathroom and diarrh-ate
Just because someone meditates or is into spirituality doesn’t mean you can abuse and they will take it, you abuse
you will get it back with interest like this.
Some times NT cases like you need hard crack at both your nuts top & bottom.
Mind your language
Still not happy go cry, tell your mama.
Or promptly tell the admin to block..they will do the needful.
I thought this forum can take a bit of heavy stu , let the debate start and then reach a conclusion who is right.
I thought you guys really interested in some serious big time debate.
If nirmukta already thinks science is right why do you even use topics of pseudo science, spirituality, gurus etc. to
prove science is supreme.
Only shows that science doesn’t have anything scienti c to discuss
why even get into arguments if you know that folks will debate you.
Science at nirmukta is proven by proving non scienti c topics as fake, great going. So much for your intellect.
If you are really so smart. Take this. Stick to only science topics. Nobody will even bother or keep this a closed
forum for only data diaharrates like NT.
Who just puke stu without knowing the concept.
Don’t discuss topics beyond science and except the other side to keep quiet.
Just propagate science, what do you think all people in spirituality etc will fall into submission that you guys are
right is it.
Looks like just lled with people like NT cases who debate with just data and no application and not willing to come
out of their false sense of they are always right.
Ashok
https://g.co/kgs/mpXnfC
A large percentage of what is happening in the mind is just mental diarrhea – running compulsively, all the time.”
—Sadhguru
Mind is a miracle, it is not a problem.

– if thoughts are going continuously,
if you’re having a mental diarrhea, It’s a problem
– the most important faculty of your life is out of control;
-Mind should not be telling its own stories all the time;
it should tell the story that you want it to tell
-How to stop mental diarrhea?
https://www.pickthebrain.com/blog/mastering-the-art-of-meditation-to-get-rid-of-mental-diarrhea/
And the best way to master the art of controlling your mind and bringing it to peace is through meditation. … But
most of these thoughts are useless and this is what is known as Mental diarrhea. .
Mastering The Art of Meditation to Get Rid of Mental Diarrhea

POSTED ON MARCH 28, 2019 BY SAURABH64CLOUD | CATEGORIES: HEALTH AND FITNESS, MEDITATION, SELF
IMPROVEMENT
Our current lifestyle and food habits have made us vulnerable to several ailments and that’s why nowadays, more
and more people are adopting di erent ways to live a healthy and balanced life. Long working hours, increased
stress, improper sleeping habits, environmental pollution, all these things are taking its toll on your health and it’s
high time to start thinking for a way to get out of this misery and adopt a healthy lifestyle.
When it comes to living a healthy life then most of the people think that by just keeping their body healthy, they will
be able to get away with the chaos and health risk associated with the modern day world. But that’s not true as a
body can’t stay healthy if it doesn’t have a peaceful mind.
It doesn’t matter how many hours you spend in the gym, how many abs you have, how much carbs and protein you
take on a daily basis if your mind wouldn’t be at peace, all your e ort of keeping your body healthy might go to
waste.
A peaceful mind holds the secret key to a balanced life. Consider your body as a car and your mind as the steering.
It doesn’t matter what’s the quality of the engine, how much horsepower it has, and how well you have maintained
it, if you will not have the steering in your hand, then it will not take you to the right place and that’s why before
learning to enhance the performance of a car, you should rst learn how to control the steering or in this case, your
mind. And the best way to master the art of controlling your mind and bringing it to peace is through meditation.
Most people su er from mental diarrhea
Humans can’t stop thinking and the day a human stops thinking for even a second means he is dead. Our brain
keeps on working from the starting of our life till our death, 24/7, even when our body rests during the sleep. But
most of these thoughts are useless and this is what is known as Mental diarrhea.
Everyone is aware of the reason behind physical diarrhea, which is the consumption of bad food and the same
thing goes for mental diarrhea in which we keep on consuming bad thoughts and negativity related to our lives.
Through consumption of such thoughts, your mind starts su ering from mental diarrhea and starts releasing
thoughts of its own or keeps you away from where you physically are.
Your mind keeps on telling its own story instead of telling the story which you want to listen to and that’s why your
mind is not in your control and thinking and making your work according to its own will.
Your brain is not in our control and if it would have been then you could have used it like your hands. You can use
your hands when you want it to and then you can keep it at rest as per your wish, but the same thing can’t be done
for the brain and that’s where the real problem starts.
You might be sitting at a conference while your mind will be wandering at the accountant’s o ce worrying about
the tax deadline, you might be watching television and your mind might be roaming around your o ce planning
your workload. The day you will be able to keep your mind and body together while having full control on your
thoughts, that day you will attain the state of inner peace and that can only be achieved through meditation.
What’s the easiest way of meditating for stopping mental diarrhea?
Many people consider meditation as a tough task because they were introduced to the easy process of meditation
as rocket science. Upon asking many people, you will hear them explaining about seeing the universe through
meditation, enlightenment of the soul and all other advanced things but in simple words, meditation is a simple art
through which you can have control your mind.
Many people have misconceptions about meditation and they think meditation as thinking of nothing but that’s not
true. You can never stop thoughts and emotions in your mind and you will actually need those thoughts in order to
meditate.
The real issue in meditation is whether you listen to your monkey mind or not and the real way to make your
monkey mind think of what you want him to think rather than listening to what he says is by giving it a job, a job of
focusing on your breathing.
You should focus your monkey mind on your breath and while breathing in, you should mentally say ‘breathe in’
and while breathing out, you should mentally say ‘breathe out’. Your monkey mind may not like this much and it
may start thinking about lots of other things but don’t worry about it because as long as you don’t forget your
breath, any background thoughts will be ne.
You can start practicing this simple meditation technique for 3 minutes and then you can go on as per your
convenient. Soon, you will realize that your monkey mind has stopped thinking about others thing when you ask it
to focus on your breath and that’s how you will start controlling your mind and thoughts.
Meditation has now become a necessity now rather than an option because our brain takes all the stress
throughout our life and when it starts to start telling stories of its own without your will, that’s where the real
problem starts. Start with the simple way of meditation mentioned in this article and you will start noticing the
changes in just a month.
@NT case this is the online version of mental diarrhea, copy and paste as many large texts as possible to try and
drown out your horrible performance as well.a and self praise yourself…mama, mama, I won..
Ashok
Actually @NT case, your intent is exactly and only to spam and I think you are honest ISHA scum SPY having a
mental diarrhea..
You simply take money from Isha, and talk negative so that folks will react on the forum..
Or else how else can one explain your negative a nity to Isha and Jaggi even none of the posts I have made on
Vastu had a remotest mention of your Secret boss Jaggi and Spy organization Isha.
Good how is Jaggi/Isha calling you @NT, well let me guess agent 420
Intentionally Encouraging negative debates on Jaggi/Isha to make people react…even though the concerned
comments did not have any mention of them at all..and you call yourself SmartASSt.
Ashok
October 10, 2019 at 10:04 pm
Hey @NuT case, topic is Pseudo Science and Religion..
Guess wat ur not even eligible, forget being scienti cally quali ed.
Atleast start with your real name… rst be eligible to debate…shows your credibility…your one exceptional ISHA SPY
scum…garnering visibility to your boss Jaggi and organization Isha..some 420 you are…hats o …
Pseudo name fellow…
Then you can brag your mental diarrhea of science
Ashok
October 10, 2019 at 10:47 pm
Hey @NuTcase, btw your negative strategy seems to work.
Even foremost science and technology university and corporates seems to fall trap..and invite Jaggi..
Jaggi at Harvard…
https://youtu.be/d363Rc_H14o
Hmm..all those science and technology folks are fools..
When are you bringing Google, Microsoft, Harvard university at your knees.
I mean you are a great scion of science?
Google, Microsoft, Harvard is losing…it..my god inviting Jaggi..yuck…go @NuT case..don’t waste time child like me..
Go save the world…
I think you should go and Enlighten them about fake Jaggi, I mean your so smart, Jaggi is dumb…
Go to Google, Microsoft, go…tell how superior your science diarrhea is…
Jaggi at Google
https://youtu.be/QQn8X4FbpTM
Ashok
October 10, 2019 at 10:53 pm
@hey NuT case..
Jaggi at Oxford..
https://youtu.be/KlITeRcTZsc
Pls don’t waste time with child like me.
Go save the world, spread science…if this is condition of top science corporate & institute…wat about common
folks…
Go reveal about Jaggi to Oxford…
Tanmaya
@NT Woah! I tried out the Vastu stu that was posted and it worked!! You gotta try it like he said man, Ashok
speaks the truth! Became an overnight millionaire and my health problems all went away!!! Dude, give it a go! And
then nd someone to delete all these posts, lol.
Ashok
Hey @Tanmaya
Pls don’t waste time with child like me.
Go save the world, spread science…if this is condition of top science corporate & institute…wat about common
folks…
Go reveal about Jaggi to Oxford…
please convey your superior sciencti c know-how to folks at Google, Microsoft, and Harvard.
Please save the world from Jaggi. Go tell them how dare you invite Jaggi and ya delete his YouTube videos as well..
Hide the truth, and brag mama I won..won..
Why are you geniuses wasting time on arguing and wasting time..LOL..and hiding at online forums..while so called
dumb, liar Jaggi is visiting top science and technology institutes and corporates…
Goto Google, Microsoft, Oxford, Harvard and strut your stu there…
Oh wait you are agent number 2..working for your boss Jaggi and Isha cult.
NT
@Tanmaya seriously though, I am beginning to suspect he has mental health issues. I predicted correctly that he
would have a hissy t after I posted the Osho talk that jaggu stole from, just one among so many and he was
denying everything. but seeing his meltdown that followed, I think he is turning insane and just pity him. from the
other side though, I think he is a perfect study of how ISHA brains work.
http://www.thehinduchronicle.com/2017/04/pseudoscience-vastu-get-legitimacy/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayant_Narlikar
Ashok
@Tanmaya seriously though, I am beginning to suspect, no it’s Proven, @NuT csse has mental diarrhea issues. I
proved correctly that @NuT case would have a busy diarrhea epilepsy after I posted the Vastu proofs, how
astrology works, just few among so many and @NuT case was denying everything. but seeing his mental diarrhea
that followed, I think..no it’s PROVEN he is turning into chronic mental diarrheatic and just pity him. from the other
side though, I think he is a perfect study of how @NT alias a ISHA SPY scum brain work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vastu_shastra
Vastu shastra (vāstu śāstra) is a traditional Indian system of architecture[2] which literally translates to “science of
architecture.”
https://www.famousscientists.org/25-famous-scientists-who-believed-in-god/
Article will shows some of the most famous scientists in history who believed in God.
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
Ernst Haeckel (1834 –1919)
Erwin Schrödinger (1887 –1961)
Francis Bacon (1561-1627)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Guglielmo Marconi (1874 –1937) & more….
NT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein
Albert Einstein’s religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.
He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he
described as naïve.
Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=m-YF1glKWLoC&redir_esc=y
“He rejected traditional religious beliefs (Jewish, Christian, and Islamic) not on the basis of any reasoned argument,
nor even with an expression of emotional antipathy, for he loved to use religious expressions and metaphors, but
simply by saying that they are naive.” … “He claimed to be an atheist, but he always used religious symbolism and
believed his scienti c work was an approach to the godhead.”
By 1900 most main scientists are atheists.
NT
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/does-it-matter-that-many-scientists-are-atheists
One fact that concerns some Christians and elates some atheists is that 93 percent of the members of the National
Academy of Sciences, one of the most elite scienti c organizations in the United States, do not believe in God.
Atheist Sam Harris says that, “This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith
than science is.”
Many scientists list religion as the community of origin, but don’t actually believe in it. Einstein is counted as Jewish
but what he believes is
“Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts
through fear or ridiculous egotisms”
Einstein
so much for your belief in reincarnation. when Einstein says God, he means something else. when Einstein says
souls, he also means something else. read scientist biographies, don’t just google quotes you don’t understand.
you can quote a thousand quora nobodies, but they are outweighed by one Jayant Narlikar or Albert Einstein.
Ashok
October 11, 2019 at 10:14 am
Good, Got you exactly where I wanted..
Hinduism – it’s a long video. Hope you know Hindi language.
https://youtu.be/1iJOfxjaOZQ
Kindly go through the full video. There is no use calling Hinduism as religion without going through this video.
See the video…simply you can quote a thousand data without application but they are enough to be outweighed by
one simpleton like me..
I don’t even need to take quote shelter of big brainy folks to prove you wrong…
See the video and then talk..
Ashok
@NT so you agree there is a God, the Albert Einstein, way atleast?
Ashok
Oops and ya @NuT case, i missed goto NASA and also enlighten people about your science diarrhea..apparently
even some working at NASA seem to agree on existence things beyond scope of science..Oh my God..save the
world..@NT don’t waste time arguing with child like me.
Is this the proof that spirits DO exist?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-469849/Is-proof-spirits-DO-exist.html
At rst, it seemed no more than a curious coincidence. Professor Klaus Heinemann, a researcher for NASA, the U.S.
space agency, was studying a collection of photographs his wife had taken at a gathering of spiritual healers when
he noticed that many of them featured the same pale but clearly de ned circle of light, like a miniature moon,
hovering above some of the subjects.
Like most rational people, he assumed that the pictures were faulty. ‘I presumed the circles were due to dust
particles, ash anomalies, water particles and so on,’ says Prof Heinemann.
‘But I was su ciently intrigued that I returned to the room in which the pictures were taken, in the hope of nding
an explanation – like a mirror in the background. None was forthcoming.’
Nor could he nd any faults with his wife’s camera. And as a scientist with considerable experience in sophisticated
microscope techniques – examining matter down to atomic levels of optical resolution – his methods were nothing
if not rigorous.
Still puzzled, Heinemann set out to discover what else might have caused the mysterious circles. He and his wife
began taking hundreds of digital photographs at random events to see whether they could recreate the mysterious
e ect.
The answer was that they could make these shimmering ‘orbs’ appear again, but only – absurd as it may sound – if
they ‘asked’ the apparitions to make themselves visible to the camera. And they found this method worked
particularly well when the couple photographed spiritual gatherings.
What on earth was going on? Again, a maverick technical glitch seemed the obvious answer. Such anomalies
happen frequently in digital photography. If you accidentally jog a camera while a picture is being taken, especially
in dim light, you can easily get a double image.
But again, Prof Heinemann ruled out a technical fault. ‘We were quickly able to eliminate the common problems
associated with photography – such as dust particles, water droplets, re ections and a host of other likely causes.’
Yet the orbs still kept appearing. And the more images he took, the more he was able to study the bizarre
properties of these shimmering lights.
Heinemann set up dozens of experiments using two cameras on static tripods under controlled conditions. His
early experiments found that orbs can move very fast, up to 500mph or more.
Heinemann also found that during his numerous dual camera experiments, when he used twin cameras to capture
an object from two di erent angles, a single orb shape would often appear – but only in one of the two images
taken simultaneously.
It was as if the orbs somehow chose which camera to appear on, or whether to appear at all.
Eventually, Heinemann was left with only one conclusion: that he was witnessing some form of paranormal
intelligence.
‘There is no doubt in my mind that the orbs may well be one of the most signi cant “outside of this reality”
phenomena mankind has ever witnessed,’ says Professor Heinemann.
‘Until now, there has been a huge amount of anecdotal evidence that the spirit world exists. I believe it’s no longer
anecdotal. Thanks to digital technology, we can see it for the rst time. We are dealing with a non-physical – albeit
real – phenomenon.’
The temptation, of course, is to dismiss such claims as bunkum. Indeed, many of Professor Heinemann’s colleagues
consider his research to be ‘utter aky nonsense’.
And yet a growing number of respectable scientists refuse to write o the possibility that these orbs, which are
starting to appear on cameras around the world, just might o er a fascinating glimpse into the unknown.
Earlier this year, the world’s rst conference on orbs took place in Sedona, Arizona, where several scientists
controversially stated that they believed orbs were indeed a genuine paranormal phenomenon.
Their conclusions, if correct, could have huge implications on the way we view the universe and our part in it. The
experts say that just because something has not yet been scienti cally proven, it doesn’t mean that it is not real.
Professor William Tiller, a theoretical physicist who spent 35 years researching consciousness and matter at
Stanford University in California, reminded the conference that what we see with our physical eyes comprises less
then 10 per cent of the known universe.
This is because human vision operates only within a limited range of the electromagnetic spectrum. For instance,
we cannot see radio waves, which carry huge amounts of information, yet we know they exist.
Similarly, Miceal Ledwith, a former professor of Theology, who for ten years was President of Maynooth College at
the National University of Ireland, reminded the sceptics that when, in 1861, Dr Ignaz Semmelweis had claimed
there might be some unseen link between surgeons who didn’t wash their hands and the high rate of infection in
childbirth, his mainstream colleagues ridiculed him.
Yet he had found the rst evidence of what was later to become known as bacteria.
‘Most great discoveries throughout history have been initially ridiculed,’ Ledwith told the orbs conference. ‘To my
mind, there is no doubt that the orb phenomenon is real and deserves to be taken seriously. There are not just a
few pictures of orbs, which could easily be faked, but hundreds of thousands from all over the world.’
To date, Ledwith, who was also a member of the International Theological Commission at the Vatican, has a
collection of more than 100,000 orb pictures .
‘They come in all sizes, ranging from a few inches to several feet across,’ he says. ‘Sometimes they appear alone,
and at other times hundreds of them, in colours ranging from white to blue, green, rose and even gold.
‘Over time, I realised that a ash seemed to be essential to capture them, even in daylight. I believe this is because
we can see the orbs only through the process in physics known as uorescence. The camera ash sparks this
uorescence process, making the orbs visible to the camera.’
Ledwith is still uncertain about what these orbs might actually be, but he has no doubt that they are some sort of
paranormal apparition.
‘I believe they could be many things. They may turn out to be the spirits of those who have passed on; or, as some
spiritual teachers state, they might be spirits waiting to be born into a physical body,’ says Ledwith.
‘They may also be, or represent, a host of other intelligences – from nature spirits to beings of pure energy that
have never been incarnated in a physical form. There are hundreds of di erent types of orb.’
Many of the scientists at the conference believe the orbs are plasma-like balls of energy – but an energy that can be
detected by physical means, and which appears to have some control over its own shape and form.
It’s certainly the case that they can often be photographed best at places of psychic signi cance. ‘They de nitely
seem drawn to spiritualtype gatherings,’ says Ledwith.
‘We regularly see orbs near healers’ hands or heads. Perhaps they assist in the spiritual healing process.’
Take the case of Anna Donaldson, a freelance photographer who was commissioned to take pictures of Keith
Watson, a medium who had been drafted in to help solve the disappearance of Sarah Payne, the little girl who was
snatched while playing near her grandparents’ home in West Sussex seven years ago.
The shoot took place at the exact spot where Sarah was last seen, because the medium had suggested that he
‘might pick something up’. Sure enough, when the pictures were developed, a mysterious glowing dot appeared in
one of the crucial images.
‘I didn’t believe in any of this paranormal stu ,’ says Anna, ‘but I couldn’t nd any fault with the camera – if there
had been, then all the images would have been tainted, not just one of them.’
Still sceptical, Anna had the lm and images analysed for technical faults, but again no one could provide a logical
answer – until a member of the Psychic Institute suggested that the pictures could indeed be evidence of ‘auras’. In
this case, Anna was told that the blueish colour of the orb suggested the presence of a very young soul.
Still intrigued, Anna arranged to photograph Watson again – at the exact spot from where another young child had
disappeared, this time in Greece. To her astonishment, the photographs again showed the presence of a blue orb.
And when Anna repeated the shoot the next day, in a bid to rule out a trick of the light, she got the same result –
only this time it was two orange orbs.
‘So what I now had was pictures of orbs from three di erent cameras, in two di erent countries, on three di erent
days – there’s simply no way that could be a chance occurrence or a technical fault,’ says Anna.
‘I still don’t know what to think about it, but I suppose because a camera can pick up an image at a shutter speed of
1/2,000 of a second, it’s possible it can detect things the naked eye cannot see.’
Could it have been the spirits of the lost children?
Terri Caldwell, a healer from Belbroughton, in Worcestershire, is among those who are convinced that orbs are a
visible manifestation of human spirits.
‘To my mind, the orbs are the spirit world simply going about their business,’ she says. ‘I believe we are all spirits
having a physical experience, and when we die our energy eld which carries all the information about us continues
on.’
But not everyone is convinced. Gary Schwartz, Professor of Psychiatry at Arizona University, has conducted many
experiments into orbs with the help of optical scientist Katherine Creath and remains sceptical.
‘We feel that a large majority of so-called orb pictures are too readily attributed to some form of paranormal
phenomena when, in fact, stray re ections in uncontrolled environments often produce orb-like images,’ he says.
That does not deter those, like Miceal Ledwith, who feel orbs are simply too widespread to be written o as a
misunderstanding. ‘The orbs are an everyday part of reality, as much as we are,’ he maintains. ‘Their world may be
as real as ours, but exists on higher frequencies.
‘If you change your TV channel, you switch to di erent frequencies, which contain di erent information. It’s illogical
to think that what we cannot see is not real, because the human eye is able to receive only a very narrow part of
the light spectrum. Many animals can see in spectrums invisible to us.’
As Professor Heinemann summarised: ‘Research into orbs is only in its infancy. But the photographs of these spirit
emanations o er evidence – as close to scienti c proof as we have ever come – in proving the existence of spiritual
reality.’
It’s good to be a feeble soul becoz feeble folks can atleast be made to agree by explanation or by force atleast…but
strong @NuT cases like you don’t get anything inside their head, even when they are wrong or are not able to prove
things wrong..they are adamant they are right..they don’t admit it…
NT
you have me where I want you? Hahaha.
poor Ashok, let me explain your role on this web site. no one is debating you. you won’t convince a single another
person here unless they also come from ISHA etc. instead you convince people to stay away from ISHA to not be
like you.
this is how internet works. the cost of putting something on the internet is nothing. so more than 99% of
information on internet is bad quality information. because you are not intelligent, you lack a lter for what is
credible and what isn’t. so you follow godmen, pseudoscience and things like that.
so far I found that you are the worst fake thing believer I have ever seen. if there is junk out there, there is a good
chance you believe it. this is what I refer to as dumb. it is a literal, factual statement, not an insult.
but let’s take something even you have not said so far that you believe – that moon landings are fake or that earth
is ruled secretly by lizard people. if you spend time going to junk web sites that talk about this, you will come out in
a few days or hrs believing those things. you will have a hundred quora quality quotes that you think are
arguments. you will think they are proof. they are not.
always ask, if this is true, why don’t intelligent people everywhere believe it, why just some people who look
intelligent to me? am I among the rst to recognize this? am I someone who everyone thinks of as a genius? do
people refer to me as that genius ashok?
people tried to teach you about con rmation bias, but you lacked the intelligence to understand it and see how it
rules you. your posts above are great examples of con rmation bias.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Orb
do I need to nd this stu for you. can’t you put an e ort for 10 minutes looking if something you found is fake?
this is why I think of you as immature and as a baby and you get upset when I say that. do your own research on
why something is not true.
https://www.academia.edu/6393631/Orbs_At_last_some_de nitive_evidence_that_they_are_not_paranormal
so what is your role here? your role is to be a crazy person from ISHA who foolishly believes in every junk there is.
Ashok, your role in this forum is to be an example that proves that people who go to meditation groups like you are
the least realized people on the face of the earth, which is funny, given they think they are more realized than
everyone else. so please try to realize that you are never going to convince any person above average intelligence
since yours is well below the average.
Albert Einstein’s God is a symbolic one that represents total truth, needs no prayers or meditation or has anything
to do with karma and punishment. there is no reincarnation. doing science is symbolic meditation or prayer for this
conceptual God. sure, I think of science as prayer in that sense – a scientist who spends life studying termite nests
away from the comforts of home is doing real prayer or meditation, not someone who chants mantras. but I think
such words are forced comparisons.
don’t copy paste full articles, only people who are losing arguments and know it. it makes you look desperate.
Ashok
@NuT case you always looking for support from others shows who is desperate, who is below average and who is
from Isha Cult..just look at the spelling of isha
Ashok
@NuT case nobody asked you what type of God..read the comments properly..just asked so do you agree God
exists?
Must have got the salary from your secret boss Jaggi and promotion at isha cult, no wonder you again and again
take their names and just look at the caps spelling you use out of respect for your isha cult…
No need to even convince others…can clearly see you are the one who works for isha..go on abuse and get more
publicity for jaggi and isha.. i don’t mind..say what you want about jaggi or isha..
Tanmaya
October 11, 2019 at 10:29 pm
@NT Man that last post of yours was absolutely crushing and got me a few chuckles at work here. I think the reason
to not accept any ideas is more psychological for him. The pain behind letting deeply rooted beliefs is too real to
deal with and must be de ected by derailing conversations.
Ashok
October 11, 2019 at 10:58 pm
@Tanmaya gal the last past of his was absolutely diarrheatic as usual and got us at whole o ce here a huge LOL. I
think, no it’s proven to not accept anything beyond scope of science is mentally diarrheatic for @NT. The pain
behind due to letting of continous mental diarrhea is absolutely real to deal with and is clearly re ected by abusing,
self claiming I won, I won, convincing hard instead of just commenting with topic at hand and needs constant
support from others to claim they are true…
NT
@Tanmaya absolutely crushing?! no, I am sure he feels it was just a esh wound!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Ashok
October 12, 2019 at 10:40 am
@Tanmaya absolutely crushingly wrong, I can see surely the mental diarrhea is now spread all across his body and
is causing serious bleeding to @NuT case…
https://youtu.be/5eKrJggZBps
NT
poor isha ashok, can’t understand a famous monty python joke, now copy pasting quora all over because his ego
got hurt, because that is what isha yogic “realization” ultimately is. LOL. having another meltdown because I proved
your “orbs” are just particles in air with a thorough scienti c study? poor baby. detachment from emotions not
working after all these years of practice? how many hours of kriya did you do so far?
Ashok
poverted isha spy @NuT case, can’t understand a basics of forum, now simply puking senseless data all over
because his NUTS got hurt, because that is what isha spy @NuT case is doing by data puking without
“understanding concept” is. LMAO. having another bleeddown because he self proved that “nuts” are just particles
in air for everyone to see with a thorough scienti c study? poor zygote. detachment from commonsense is still on
after all these years of science? how many hours of puking did you do so far?
Ashok
Hey @NuT case tuck your nuts hanging out in the air from your head. It’s visible to everyone that your brains
nothing but Nuts.
Clearly everyone can see that you have NUTS at the top as well.
This is all i Said, i would be happy to be proved wrong..you deaf, dumb and blind NUTcomatose..
Can anyone get Deepanshu Giri, to debate and prove its fake…
His pro le.
Deepanshu Giri
Robotics Engineer/Astrologer
https://www.quora.com/pro le/Deepanshu-Giri-1
It would be a interesting debate – to prove Astrology is true or fake
Keep Bleeding On…@NuT case…
NT
if you understand basics of forum, why are you cross-posting same post about your robotics astrologer man? don’t
you get it? Deepanshu Giri is not really a robotics engineer. he is a “consultant”, which is a nice way of saying he is
now jobless. he also does not have a robotics degree, just an electrical one. this is what I mean when I said you had
no crap lter. at most he occasionally operated a robot and changed a fuse in it. LOL.
the orbs study was very thorough and completely disproved orbs. were you able to even understand what the
study did?
sure man, go get Deepanshu Giri, I will teach him a few things. if you want him here, email him, why are you posting
here? you think these posts will show up in his astrology charts like future spouses like he thinks? you guys are
loonies.
Ashok
if you understand basics of forum, why are you cross-bleeding about your data puking man? don’t you get it?
Nirmukta folks like YOU are not really quali ed for a debate. Your NuTs are hanging out “consult a doctor”, which
was a nice way of saying you are mindless. You just have a science data, that too just with application. this is what I
mean when I said you had no application lter. at most you occasionally operate like a human and blowed your
fuse in it. Now all that remains is the NUTS.. LMAO.
the NUTS study was very thorough and completely proven @NuT case. you were NOT able to even understand
what the study did? I said its open for people who think its fake..so stop bleeding and making the forum all red and
wet….
sure @NuTs, go consult Deepanshu Giri, learn a few things. if you say astrology is fake, email him, why are you
bleeding astrology is fake? and expect other side to bleed with you…you are right..you are right…. you think your
bleeding posts will show up in YOUR NUTology charts like future NuTorbs ? you @NT are NUToonies.
Ashok
Correction @NT which was a nice way of saying you are mindless. You just have a science data, that too just with
application of your NuTS, BRAINS MISSING
Ashok

Wait..don’t jump to bleeding already…
Don’t Bleed to death without reading properly..
READ ONCE AGAIN, that’s why multiple posts, still @NT cases like you don’t understand..
Hey @NuT case tuck your nuts hanging out in the air from your head. It’s visible to everyone that your brains
nothing but Nuts.
Clearly everyone can see that you have NUTS at the top as well.
This is all i Said, i would be happy to be proved wrong..you deaf, dumb and blind NUTcomatose..
Can anyone get Deepanshu Giri, to debate and prove its fake…
His pro le.
Deepanshu Giri
Robotics Engineer/Astrologer
https://www.quora.com/pro le/Deepanshu-Giri-1
Keep Bleeding On…@NuT case…
That’s the problem with @NT cases, rst sight of stimulation, you start bleeding to conclusion…
This is what i mean..i am not jumping to any conclusion..
NO..
NT
LOL, look I can’t understand half your english with all that rage caused by isha kriya, it is that bad. and your baby
meltdown is making it much worse.
you are the one posting an astrologer name everywhere, why should I contact him? people like him are only good
for quora posts and their own blogs. they can’t debate anyone who asks critical questions back. don’t think so? get
him here and we will see how intelligent he really is.
no one will contact him for you. do your own work.
“This is all i Said, i would be happy to be proved wrong..you deaf, dumb and blind NUTcomatose..”
actually, it is exactly the opposite. you are boiling with rage and on the verge of insanity B-E-C-A-U-S-E I proved you
wrong. you are not at all happy about it. you are confused because your mind is the exact opposite of a realized
mind. the proof is in your own sentence.
you feel you have been humiliated. you are now lashing out. you don’t even need “realization” to understand that.
this is why I say all these kriyas are fake about what they promise. they say that if you do this kriya or that kriya you
won’t react to your emotions. but look at you now. you are an emotional mess. I have seen this a lot actually.
Ashok
LMAO, look not only me, No one can’t understand the full of your english with all that bleeding caused by data, it is
that bad. and your bleeding DOWN is making it much worse.
you are the one imposing an astrologer is wrong everywhere, why should I contact him? people like you are only
good for abusive posts. You are not even not eligible for debate . don’t think so? It’s proven, you go get him here
and we will see how eligible you really are.
no one will prove things are RIGHT for you. do your own work.
“This is all i Said, i would be happy to be proved wrong..you deaf, dumb and blind NUTcomatose..”
See its proven, some one says they are ready for debate but for you actually the meaning, it is exactly the opposite.
you are bleeding with rage and on the verge of MANIA B-E-C-A-U-S-E I proved you wrong. you are not at all happy
about it. you are BLEEDused because your NUTS is the exact opposite of a realized mind, thing is you don’t have a
mind in the rst place. the proof is in your own ABUSES.
you feel you have been NUTumiliated. you are now BLEEDING out. you don’t even need “NUTS” to understand that.
this is why I say all these DATA are USELESS if you lack application. they say that if you puke data, you will react with
your MOTIONs. but look at you now. you are A diarrheatic motional mess. Its stinking a lot actually.
Ashok
Proof is predictions- You see every subject or study has its own ways for experiment and in astrology its by
predictions.
You can’t take statistics and say its not working -It’s a coded science and takes years of experience and practice to
see what a particular verse actually means.
To clear your doubts- See some of example predictions below from my live reading-I have never met these people
before or visited their house, All i had is there chart in hand.
For example- How did i knew that she had marriage breakups before and reason is Money plant on roof ?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1364db43dad55ea 3bba721b8d789d2
How did i knew in which direction of house they had a electrical hazard ?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-74c4a600b7f25d6bb5ab78c96af056e3
How Did i predicted that she was born with blocked tear glands ?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5f2405e1ccbd6ddec6ca8bb3777ee2ce
There are several other examples like this for more read my answer on-
Read all answers -They all are from live read to unknown people online and tell me if you still need proof ?
He’s inviting an open challenge @NT case…
No..you just Keep Bleeding and humiliated…
Ashok
There are several other Proof of predictions- examples –
See the screenshots below-
Prediction-1 Maternal grandfather use to give some kind of medicine to women and due to his medicine one of the
lady has to abort kids
Answer- Grandfather use to give medicine for aphrodisiacs but not sure about the event.
Prediction-2- One of the sibling must have died due to drug overuse.
Answer-Yes- Sibling passed away due to alcohol overdose.
Prediction -3 wife still has good knowledge of drugs, chemicals and even in marriage all the things were hidden to
him
Answer — Yes -Everything regarding wife was unknown and lot of things get cleared after marriage.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cb4030c4e526b51174a2b40f453d6348
On 21st september 2016- A sanyasi or Sadhu will approach you asking for money and you would have denied
money saying -He only need money for intoxication”
Answer- There was a sadhu outside his shop and he denied money and ran him away.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ccb6 599be682679fa39f2400ef931
A doctor couple who were tensed because their daughter was not speaking and use to wake up suddenly in the
night so by some remedies change the energy around that kid and see the results
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f02baab67b278ebc86b117a8b2c1dfe8
Ashok
More proofs on Astrology – I was doing a live read for one of the regular clients regarding his business and work-
out of the blue he asked -His parents are su ering badly due to disease.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-667cec79a940291a486119303134af7c
As this was career reading and my whole concentration was on career-I looked into the matter and told him the
reason is- As your father took a loan on a certain date from someone in a family and hasn’t returned it yet and your
mother failed to serve a relative when he/she was sick that is why she is su ering.
I missed a few subtle points in this prediction due to hurry as I could have easily predicted that the loan was for the
house.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-addb3e0023 87ee2d31aee78f9fb392
this couple visited me but this one of them had a problem in the stomach from last 8–9 years -A constant pain in
one side of stomach.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f6124fbecef97ed8daaa70c1d01d6231
Ashok
Proofs -3 Astrolgy works.
Sometimes people will keep on denying no it’s not there and then later on I receive message yes it’s there and the
prediction is right- They forgot to had a look at it- This system is so precise.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ac79157b3 2bd74875f9d6cb0cdbbe3
Events As small as “Did you called plumber to x water tap in this particular month?”
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-003300aea6130d35b8e2145c59aae556
Why someone has toilet only in SW only and geyser is not working -Because Grandparents were in restaurant
business and served bad quality un-hygenic food to people that is why they will never be able to live in India and
have unstable Job- Remedy will be to serve food to people free of cost.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-521635f165ac879834903baa4f0bfc0e
Ashok
Proofs -4 Astrology works.
See the results below-While doing this consultation I was so mentally attached that I tried my level best to help this
kid. This feedback gave me so much peace in doing astrology.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-badf96 07cc6be262551c7ea49e004c
As everyone has a freewill- This guy remembered prediction as it was in written-So this guy messaged me last night
regarding same that prediction came true.
Why did I say -Do not marry this particular one -Reason being is-If this guy would have married this girl the father of
the bride would have su ered.
As an astrologer don’t predict things which are out of line but predict bad events so the person can brace himself
for the future.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1e2492cbe7632bfc1d24bfd9c041c7c5
Remember I knew this person from quora only so never been to his house, I did this prediction from chart only.
See below the chat.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e98eee96a3409b89bec3eb16242bcedf
Ashok
Proofs 5 – Astrology works.
Every single object of the house you should be able to predict from the chart.
Check one more example-Why relationship has a problem due to mercury.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5749a611c106ca5b579e2318d1db1c13
See the example below when someone has a problem with the family of husband and how to solve it.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ea7ab9dde6f859f6869af347e71c7af8
Another example-Where someone was getting proposals for marriage but not getting married and couldn’t gure
out why?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d54a412a05c57f9cfd5a8a457ae29737
Ashok
Proofs 6 – Astrology Works
I was doing a reading for an independent lawyer and he was asking why my profession has a problem- All I asked
him was that age of 32 did you work on a case which was related to property?
The reason was He favored the wrong side while ghting a case and that karma is hitting him back and there is no
remedy to it.
He replied yes that was a rst independent case he fought.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-86c61f7a9550135749ca618530a6bdbc
Ok, let us look at another prediction for the same person as I have a habit that before I predict future -I generally
pick up several past events with a fair degree of accuracy to predict.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-07673f60faec3d64986c7994976cfcc4
Predicting Why someone is not getting Job?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-24f345a53ab082725e9d754780a79d17
Ashok
Proofs 7 -Astrology Works
No amount of programming or AI can predict that you are about to have a break in relationship and travel will be
involved only astrology can do it.
See the feedback below.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a70f9ca3547a1d24c72bb89f43697aaf
“Last year you went out to buy shoes but didn’t buy it also at the same time negotiation regarding promotion was
going on and also promotion didn’t happen
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c4b23d9aa75aed4502ce35932c2a9352
I predicted to someone regarding caught by police during reading- Kaal Chakra Dasha helps you to con rm any
event in a chart.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e01b1dfb02bd8a0550cdf9b9321e7d6b
NT
robot engineer astrologer on quora thinks his phone screenshot is proof that astrology works. brilliant. and kriya
“realized” isha ashok agrees. you two are made for each other. send him money. he will say nice things about you.
you need that now to boost your bruised ego.
every astrologer can list a long line of happy clients. that does not make proof. you don’t know what proof is.
neither you nor your “robot driver” who calls himself a robot engineer. sure, we can call a train driver, a railway
engineer. so why not here I guess.
isha ashok, you just repeat everything I say back. that is cute when a 5 year old does it, not when a fully grown man
does it. yet another reason you are called a baby. one minute you say my diction is perfect, which I would not say.
another minute you say it is awful, because you just want to repeat what I said. such a child.
the lies you tell yourself are the worst. you hate being proven wrong. why don’t you just admit that? you can’t even
imagine you or jaggu ever being wrong. you can’t accept that jaggu stole Osho’s story and instead argued that Jesus
birth was o by full two hundred years when the range is within 2 years.
“Most scholars, on this basis, assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus
you can’t accept that Steve Parson’s paper completely disproved Orbs.
you say you want to be proven wrong, but when a proof is shown, you scream – but that is data, not fair.
how exactly does proof that disproves orbs look like to you? I have no idea. I don’t think you do either. maybe you
just want jaggu to say they are not real and until then you will just believe.
all I can see is isha ashok feels he can drown his humiliation in spam posting. so pathetic.
Ashok
I was doing a consultation for an Indian fellow in U.S and concentration of consultation was wife-and troubled
married life.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d6b687f1f6365d0461bfce424353aba6
Why did I asked this particular date only as I want to identify the planet causing this event?
see in the screenshot below I predicted “You applied for a loan last year but was not successful that was to buy a
house, problems with in-laws and what not” and several other predictions were bang on regarding her and family.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e4a4112d14c8a0163db76e7668e96c93
Secondly, she asked me- When I will get a house?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-be10916052c243f61ddfaecc3c7089ac
Ashok
Proofs 9 – Astrology Works.
During the consultation, I asked- “Have your mother had a ght with neighbors over a dirty water issue ?”
This is what I predicted from the son’s chart and he replied “Yes” – Now if a small incident like this is visible in the
chart then you can imagine big events actually shout.
See the screenshot below.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f52d0460fbca4933677e003c7aa41702
een anyone predicting -Bedroom of an elder brother is bad- He Don’t have a bedroom to sleep -Predicted this from
younger brother’s chart.
Elder brother’s Neighbours profession and the house he was born in.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b4461c 284a0354a07196e5ad3c549
During prediction i told him exactly after 9 days your case will be solved.
Worth mentioning this guy went to several astrologers before me and everyone told him remedy to perform. I told
him do not perform any remedy of throwing things in water or anything else is not required only wait for time.
See the result below
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a7e527f964f9bdf3e1cf7218cbcf2210
Ashok
This one is from prashna chart only as I was watching Mission Impossible in PVR and was not in mood to do birth
time recti cation so made a Prashan chart for his problem
Need suggestion to improve his business
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5b5709224cca07b1977435ac02be4b8b
There are experts from live reading below – Tell me how much true it is if i can predict color of shoes she brought
last time- All i knew about her is birth chart and nothing else.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d94b35b06407660957082fead83fe771
Ashok
Proof 11 – Astrology Works
There are experts from live reading below – All i knew about her is birth chart and nothing else
Problem in North East area of home
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b9b3f29961ec23ac4cc59f46ac8cd7c1
How many religious books are there?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-de5981d8958c880e2cd7a6f09ccbc08d
Damp walls, water leakage in southwest of the house
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-53b11c2470d96ab9a4aa336d1faac4c0
Ashok
Proofs 12 – Astrology works
Now coming to point of accuracy-see examples below and tell me accuracy.
North east electrical equipment not working
south west direction lot of cosmetics
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ea7ab9dde6f859f6869af347e71c7af8
eastern portion of house, excess of water
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d54a412a05c57f9cfd5a8a457ae29737
Ashok
This is the magic of astrology-It still keeps me fascinated everyday of my life as tell me a technology which only by
birth details tells you which portion of your house is spoiled and which part of your life will be spoiled due to this.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e98eee96a3409b89bec3eb16242bcedf
wife had problems nov 2008

https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e853ced7903aa4af1eb6d9c5e766fb33
Past life lover will come and teach you a lesson
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6ac7570f4c21701c38b424fdb8564172
Ashok
Electrical equipment not working
And Which plant in south portion of home?
See one example below of 3/3 where i asked a native regarding his old and new house -this is something he can’t
change, I did asked for both old and new house- I know this guy from online -never visited house or know him.
So you see this person has free will to not to lie on resume but no freewill in vastu of his house which he shifted in
to a week back.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2dbc9b7de4eb417bca0c00c1cf3e2aa7
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8239dd9d1d40b143ed6b5fd68c400e68
Ashok
These predictions are speci c to date and nature, secondly all i knew about this guy except birth detail was that he
is from South Africa living in London.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-72bee318397f5ed8e735d8b2764393a0
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0089217b542430 44357ed4008276fd
This is for someone i have not seen in life or even know his name but i know where is the problem in house with
speci c details so people who are claiming it a guess work should get their heads out.
Ashok
Proof 16- Astrology works
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-875360c21b3a083d5b0d8646462fe662
on 30/05/2018 for someone i don’t know but see for yourself prediction and response. I have never visited his
house and infact i don’t even know his full name or city he live in . All i had was chart you can predict up to any
detail you want regarding native.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d0b4a83aa54f6d26743933601df167a4
I see comments mocking astrology-Everyone has a right to express their opinion but you can predict anything from
chart-see example below
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4cdaddcc4968d762e650089d2b54f023
Ashok
Girl who asked why Marriage is breaking at last minute every time
Predicting past rst
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d900c2a76c4b70a34cee9d8b6304d96f
He is 28 now -I start predicting from age 15-
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-812006a955317c498332ac8bccd618c4
Ashok
Proofs18 – Astrology Works
Telling him disease she had when she was born -Which she was not even aware of.
How did i knew that she had marriage breakups before and reason is Money plant on roof ?
How did i knew in which direction of house they had a electrical hazard ?
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-74c4a600b7f25d6bb5ab78c96af056e3
Ashok
other example predictions to decide e ectiveness of astrology
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5c46b4909039eab441a13fe00d22c9c5
what you can see from spouse chart.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4cdaddcc4968d762e650089d2b54f023
How i did it is very simple read BPHS chapter in 2nd house combinations and predict everything regarding eyes and
wealth.
Ashok
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6acfb365dc0151bdd30c325432b7f051
You must have machinery junk in east portion of house and waste water of house from washing machine or some
other source must be there.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-155a3fc0f93dec40fd470c4b7ea65031
i haven’t seen in my life and don’t know anything about him.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-db19a4318090872e3bd664bc8bd86f2e
Ashok
Astrology 21 – proofs it works
i haven’t seen in my life and don’t know anything about him.
Got lot o ers from females
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d900c2a76c4b70a34cee9d8b6304d96f
lots of ght in love and deception
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-75ef62a46705b60c1c2baac5a46918ac
Ashok
Proofs 22 – Astrology it works
Sisters Marriage-In India After 40 in rural areas it is impossible to get married after 30, My Friends sister was in 40’s
See below chats. Her Birth Time varied by +-20 mins so see below.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6acfb365dc0151bdd30c325432b7f051
See the Result.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-155a3fc0f93dec40fd470c4b7ea65031
Predicting JOB when he believed nothing is going good around him.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-496846754c5c0953fd3e9028edb2b76d
Ashok
Proofs 23 – Astrology it works
Predicting JOB when he believed nothing is going good around him.
See the result
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6df63c661a53da7cd9b8f7bc3ad3e57d
Predicting Loss of Job
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-efbba881021c4f95b37f313326eaf433
Predicting Your Salary will be Stopped.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3a96c55da91f7b2cf7490fc8f7c3df9f
Ashok
proofs 24 – Astrology works
I only have chart nothing else to predict but see the accuracy for Vastu-Only from natal chart I was telling him how
things are in his house.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-72c0f13cdcef63b92b201c250d56459e
Predicting Birth place-
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-34505776ee29699fc915ef189b495daf
Predicting drain water over ow next to house.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-5c46b4909039eab441a13fe00d22c9c5
Ashok
proofs 25 – Astrology works
When he will complete the second remedy- His problem will get solved.
https://qphs.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ebb6902bee192fd5e3c91fccd34fc11c
Ashok
@NT case puking data on Nirmukta thinks his diarrhea scream comments is proof that astrology does not work.
diarrheatic. and data “puking” isha SPY @NT pukes as usual. you @NT case are not made for anything, not even
your own self. Send yourself some more money or ask your boss Jaggi for salary hike to abuse even more. he will
give money to you and you say bad things ABOUT him. Need that now to boost your in ammed NUTS.
every @NT case can list a long line of sad things, that does not make proof. you don’t know what proof is. neither
you nor your “diarrheatic NUTS” CALLING yourself a science student. sure, we can call you A NUT being, a
diarrheatic engineer. so why not here I guess.
isha SPY @NT you just ABUSE everything I COMMENT. that is diarrheatic when a zygote does it, not when a fully
grown NUT does it. yet another reason you are called a ZYGOTE. one minute you say your diarrhea data is perfect,
which I would not say. another minute you just abuse, because you just want to diarrheate and stink the place.
what I said. such a @NT case.
the puke you do on your own face are the stinkiest. you hate being proven wrong. why don’t you just admit that?
you can’t even imagine you or your boss is jaggu for whom you are doing negative publicity. you can’t accept that
you steal data and cook up Osho like stories and instead argued that historical dates are correct even they are way
o by full two hundred years when the data itself is not accurate.
“Most scholars, on this basis, assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC” and you want assumption to be taken in
consideration calling yourself a scienti c…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
you can’t accept that Spirituality exists and science is not the only way to look at things…
you say you want to be proven wrong, but when a proof is shown, you diarrheate– but that is and just puking…
how exactly does proof that disproves Astrology is fake look like to you? I have idea. I don’t think you do. maybe you
just want jaggu to give you a salary hike and say keep abusing @NT they are not real and until then others will just
believe your crap.
all I can see is isha SPY @NT feels he can DIARRHEATE his humiliation in spam posting. so DIARRHEATIC…
NT
haha, that was a full on psychotic episode.
isha ashok, you don’t have to pretend that you are not a jaggu devotee. I already saw your youtube channel,
including the videos you deleted.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgcnUomC80plhYthWonXaeg/videos
Ashok
He he, that was a full on diarrheatic episode.
isha SPY @NT, you don’t have to pretend that you are not a jaggu employee. I can see your 24/7, name chanting of
Isha & Jaggi, including the e orts you took to see videos of Jaggi on my channel.
You successfully passed the test. Though you say I am Isha fan, I didn’t share it but you hate Isha it seems, you hate
Jaggi..it seems but will always secretly work for them…by instigating people to speak about them..as usual current
comment was on astrology and see what your @NT case diarrheatic data puking NUTs has lead you into…licking
Jaggi and Isha…
See you are SPY working for Isha. You are again doing publicity by sharing the videos, and you say you din’t mean it.
You diarrheatic, atleast puke properly, stick to topic, as usual no application, only data puking.
Fyi, The videos are not hidden or deleted.
https://youtu.be/ihuzEuecBZ4
You don’t worry nobody is calling you fool, that is for folks with brains, atleast empty head.
https://youtu.be/ihuzEuecBZ4
Your problem is @NT you have NUTS in your top & bottom..As usual you are not even eligible for debate, let alone
ring stupid…
Ravikant Rastogi
October 15, 2019 at 11:27 am
Thank god no one is reading this shit. I don’t know how i stumbled upon this whole bunch of vitriolic being spewed
in the 7th page of google search while looking for something else related to Sadhguru.
Being Atheist doesn’t mean you have to be intolerant. Chill for god’s sake(pun intended) and focus more on
research in maths/physics etc rather than spending time in analysing stu which anyway you either no clue about
or are completely prejudiced against.
What a moronic group of people !
Ashok
October 15, 2019 at 12:23 pm
No Pun intended..for human’s sake.

If the forum does not want to debate, well and good.
But the abuses were totally uncalled for.
Just because someone does not agree with your side does not mean they can go Gung-ho and vitriol-ate they are
right.
I did not want to give back but i had no other choice.Anyways i apologize for retorting in the same vein..@NT
@Tanmaya SINCERE apologies, i could have avoided the retort back as well but as you guys are TOTALLY
CONVINCED you are RIGHT, so am I.
This is where the problem lies, still one side insists they are right..leading to this kind of hatred all over.
I am saying i do not agree to what you guys say that spirituality etc is hoax.
That is all..
If you do not agree atleast stop the abuses, wisecracks, personal remarks and retorts.
@Ravikant i don’t know what you mean exactly (no pun intended) , but just hope the list of moronic group of people
does not add one more name to it.
I repeat @NT and others i do not agree to you guys..and you have no right calling the other side – spirituality, yoga,
etc as nonsense..if you do not agree, share your opinions but do not abuse..
@NT @Tanmaya SINCERE apologies, again..this is not out of any cowardice..but it was totally uncalled from both
sides, and i take the rst responsibility..least i expect you guys if you can’t apologize..is to stop the wisecracks and
stick to the topic only..
Jay123
Why don’t we use the discussion forum of this website for our conversations.It will atleast come alive .
Tanmaya
October 15, 2019 at 10:58 pm
Very interesting read. I’m constantly amazed by the smartness of these “godmen”.
” This ‘Rally for Rivers’, is not for rivers. It is for the land, for money, for power, for fame and for name, says India’s
‘Waterman’ ”
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/wont-support-rally-rivers-indias-waterman-rajendra-singh-ishas-
campaign-73353
Jay123
Also why is Isha foundation is charging Rs 42 per sampling from public. When many of the NGOs are doing it for
free
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/why-isha-foundation-taking-money-plant-trees-petition-against-cauvery-
calling-jaggi-sadhguru-109110
Tanmaya
@Jay123
Incredible.. almost 11,000 crores! Man what am I doing here wasting prime years working my butt o , should
become a mystic.
Ashok
& continuing in the same vein, Yes, proof is in the pudding.
Soon this time Sadhguru won’t be able to escape….this 11,000 crores..is surely gonna get him…
Just wait n watch…
Only thing is Except few wise ones like folks at Nirmukta and few rationalists, environmentalists like Piyush Manush,
Waterman Rajendra Singh, whole majority are brainwashed and it’s a broad daylight loot…
Tanmaya
Bingo!
NT
it is not just “Nirmukta and few rationalists, environmentalists”.
on Reddit, when Jaggu is mentioned, comments are something like this
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/c2r88b/opinion_the_disturbing_irrationalism_of_jaggi/
or like this
https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/9gbdpn/no_one_should_talk_about_unemployment_in_india/
no one trusts him on anything. this is hardly the case of just a few individuals distrusting him.
but go to quora, even on the topic of nityananda, who everyone here so far agrees is completely mad, for a
question – Why do so many people still follow swamy Nithyananda?
they go like this
“I am a M.Tech post graduate myself in VLSI and chip designing… and a truth seeker . I even attended many
spiritual programs of SSY, art of living, and many other masters … but it is because of Swamiji paramahamsa
nithyananda I really got bene tted of my well being” and so on.
— Vijay Raghava, Truth Seeker, Chip design engineer with 7 years of experience
The M. Tech guy, who I do believe has an M. Tech, which is even sad, talks like a high-school dropout.
this is like I am robot engineer and do astrology, believe my experience – type posts above. it is always like this.
“Paramahamsa Nithyananda is here to liberate human consciousness; it’s a tremendous and powerful experience,
one He says that’s the sole reason this planet exists actually”
“Because they are true seekers and Swamiji Nithyananda is the only living incarnation today who can teach, guide,
provide the techniques and lead the seeker to enlightenment ……and the humanity to greater peace and joy. As
simple as that.”
quora is a madhouse. I have not seen a single pseudoscience in quora that has not been justi ed by someone, and
many of the times, it is by the majority.
don’t believe me? try: Which political gures are suspected lizard people?
you can try any crazy belief, they all queue up to justify it.
while on wikipedia, which may not be perfect, there is a conscious e ort to mark pseudoscience as pseudoscience,
it is reverse on quora. on wikipedia, they ask, is there any evidence, were there any big experiments that debunked
etc. on quora, it is all – trust me, I am telling you it is true, I tried it, I have this degree or that.. mindset. they never
care about evidence and experts and are always about me and my opinion. who cares? your opinion is your belief.
don’t expect others to respect it, especially online.
quora answers are mostly just subjective opinion, usually of the clueless kind, with no regard for what the expert
research actually says. it is a question of what you think is the right way to uncover truth, through experts or by
casually trying things, whether you trust research or just opinions and experience stories of nobodies against all
facts, science and logic.
anyone who spends way too much time on quora has a warped sense of what people think.
Tanmaya
October 17, 2019 at 10:42 pm
Brb, gonna go buy 100 Rudrakshas, hang em above my whiskey bottles, connect them to a motor and create
perpetual energy to power all my gadgets.
Tanmaya
Another great read here:
https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/the-hold/287714
“The psychology of how godmen come to control the minds of millions of devotees”
NT
After Ram Rahim – A season of godmen
https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/after-ram-rahim/cid/1461836
Can you sell detachment and merchandise at the same stall?
https://www.thehindu.com/thread/arts-culture-society/can-you-sell-detachment-and-merchandise-at-the-same-
stall/article18419741.ece
Ashok
Meanwhile in other news from outlookindia
Cauvery Calling: A Daring Venture That Must Be Allowed To Succeed
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/amp/india-news-cauvery-calling-a-daring-venture-that-must-be-allowed-to-
succeed/337857
Cauvery Calling, an initiative taken by the Isha foundation, is a powerful reminder of how it can be used to improve
peoples’ lives.
Hmm…surely outlook seems to be looking out from all sides…
Ashok
The idea is the foundation is not just for pro ts. Of course, the company has to self-sustain itself, but it is also for a
cause, as well.
It’s better than asking donations.

Not everyone donates and what is wrong if someone or a foundation is running a business to generate money and
use it for self sustaining and continuing their good work.
Yes you will say prices are high, useless items but no one is forcing to buy…I am sure when people putting their
money on something most of the times they know if it’s worth.
Also if it’s not worth it trust no product, business or service sells in the market for a long time.
I’ve seen even some of biggest brands, companies fall once they were useless. Eg: Nokia…it’s just fell behind time
and before long it was gone to dust from being the numer uno…
So argument that the intention is money making or laundering does not hold ground for me.
Here’s where the money goes by the way:
U SEE he’s making money, dividing folks, making CultSCAM. I SEE he’s made lot of hopeless, mentally not as
STRONG as you become SOMETHING in life. I SEE 1st generation 1.85 lacs educated kids, 34252814 saplings
planted, sports in 4200 villages, tey r Happy youtu.be/e4zk37UyHA4
Always see both sides. Find the TRUTH. Then decide. See clip if Isha foundation Land is illegally acquired by
@SadhguruJV or ISHA foundation.
youtu.be/M1cAYjOAKqs i SAY Don’t trust video also. BEST see Google Earth, See yourself & decide. SET oldest, time,
date, year available to till date, see TRUTH
As you say its SCAM, about land, elephant corridor illegally acquired by @ishafoundation @SadhguruJV for ashram,
see this video from CNN-News18 as for the alleged land grab. youtu.be/QaRH3RXMleo This is the other side of the
story. Now it’s up to you. Lets debate, but NOT ght
Ashok
If @ishafoundation is SCAM as you say, Open invitation by @SadhguruJV on air @ World Economic Forum. Any
JOURNALIST, ANYONE in WORLD to visit Ashram ANYTIME, ANYDAY, WHENEVER. If ONE inch Land is proven illegally
acquired @Sadhgurujv will leave t country http://www.youtu.be/zw9-Bot4FyU
Many so called Activists, put a case in court that its showo . They put police at his place. News came in media. Still
in front of police & crowd Nirmalanda quit his body. He died as a #Yogi , Not as Rogi.
http://www.youtu.be/uSdhqFaEU9I Its not cooked up story. You can nd the facts.
Ignore @SadhguruJV As of today you will nd 100s of people who can Just sit there and die at will. Now, i am not
saying about God or religion. Just saying rebirth exists. You don’t think @SadhguruJV can die at will good but you
can’t DENY #rebirth . http://www.youtu.be/BnsOxjZK6ts
Ashok
https://t.co/oDS6zCweLU After decades of research, the Division of Perceptual Studies now houses 2,500 detailed
records of children who have reported memories of past lives.
Forget @SadhguruJV . See Kids remembering past lives. Proof of #Reincarnation http://www.youtu.be/qxGMzIRrtwg
Is #REBIRTH #REINCARNATION TRUE ? Do Not Believe rebirth. If you nd rebirth is false, good. If you nd rebirth is
true, good. If you don’t want to nd rebirth, good. It doesn’t matter if rebirth is true /false. But you can’t dismiss
rebirth 100%.
http://bit.ly/2GyYPV3
Ashok
Have you seen a dying snake? Where do snakes die? Its very Rare. Point is Snakes know when they die, similarly
every life has this awareness when to EXIT the body. O course hope you do not mix up accidents, sickness or
something else. Understand CONTEXT. http://www.youtu.be/u5j4wSfe258
In fact, IF YOU ARE AWARE You will know when you are going to die. We breath in prana with the air. And breath out
just empty air. When death comes NEAR then the process is reversed. We breath in empty air and breath out prana
of the body. When all prana is gone we die.
Ashok
http://www.youtu.be/FyrpgCwlhOo #IshaVidhya School See the kids & parents, to experience what it is to be
studying there or may be its still a SCAM as you say
NOBODY has any RIGHTS to tell how to RESPOND but reacting with abusive words that too UNPROVOKED is making
people miss your side of the TRUTH. Yes if someone abuses give them back. Take Care Bro. Lets express our
opinions but still maintain relationship.
http://www.youtu.be/57PRN2auZgw
If still not convinced lets goto @ishafoundation meet @SadhguruJV nd truth. If m proven wrong publicly i will
admit. Btw i m no follower. I have never been there. Lets put an end to this. I hav a life, job, family, kid,
committments too, anything for Truth. Bring AnyOne.
As i said bro, you should atleast know the basics before commenting on something. As for your scammer
comments you are not ready to do your groundwork. Explore. If i am wrong i will apologize. Dig deep for Truth.
Don’t trust me, @SadhguruJV or YOURSELF. Find the TRUTH
Bro as i said, i don’t mind apologizing if i made errors. This is the con dence my TRUTH/CLARITY gives me. Dont tell
me, you abuse whoever you want or don’t like. Try abusing SCAMMER politicians on their twitter handle. Discuss,
Debate. Think
Till date have been 2 Isha just once/ I DONT follow any Guru. Like you gave opinion/ur truth, i shared mine. Udnt
understand i RESPECT your opinions. If ur not ready2 see frm their point, not going DEEP, n say its WRONG is
problem.Allegations,PROVE it. Till then Peace. Live & Let Live
As u say SCAM, Land is illegally acquired by @ishafoundation @SadhguruJV . Google Earth clearly shows from 2001,
I can see Land on which Isha built is barren agricultural. http://www.youtu.be/zw9-Bot4FyU I am able to see forest
cover actually increase.
Ashok
#IshaGramotsavam-Rural Upliftment
http://www.youtu.be/UXnIotGEib4 etc. May b needs 2DOmore, then may be folks will know the real deal..
Ashok
Hope tis helps http://www.youtu.be/92zqqR5u2ko His strategy- make Rich, Powerful, Politicians & Brands as good
Samaritans. If they change, then masses can change & bene t EASILY. Many were, are GREAT simpletons but its
their way. U see SCAM, i see smart work
If its SCAM as u say, the programs fees goes to Rural people who get the programs for free, #ishavidhya
#rallyforrivers #projectgreenhands #ishagramotsavam & noto forget their salaries, water, free food they give 2 ALL
electricity, rent, expenses, taxes, marketing etc & list goes on
http://www.youtu.be/kkM9Qxg_zoQ
As u say, SCAM MONEY surely is spent on 34031788 saplings planted till date. Cant be free.
http://www.youtu.be/5_olAGmBvMY Guiness Record- 17Oct2006, 852587 saplings planted in 1day. May b as U say
its still a ponzy scheme to build Isha corpus. But Not ALL donate or plant saplings.
Ashok
@SadhguruJV @ishafoundation being SCAM, hope this helps http://www.youtu.be/AfK9gpiQeqM . Nobody will help
if they went on asking for donations. Try asking money with just your good intentions to do social work. They have
to change as per times. Your thoughts most welcome. Cheers
Creating bright future for 7,738 kids. Intervening 121 rural gov schools in Tamil Nadu bene ting 50,000 students. In
Andhra Pradesh, a project for direct intervention in 3k Gov schools is bene ting over 100000 kids & 10.5k teachers
http://www.youtu.be/vmA5POSVLF0 or SCAM
Isha Vidhya School support 1100 students after completion. Goal have atleast one English-medium school in all 32
districts in Tamil Nadu. 55% 1st generation going to school, 46% girls. 7158 students frm nearby villages with
approx 61% (4019)of students on free education-SCAM as u say
Hope Ur right, may be Cauvery Calling is scam. Its donation money. May be, they can charge more & do more. Btw,
some SCAM money goes to –
#IshaVidhya http://www.youtu.be/sddoQq_Zue0 1.85 lac students bene ted. 9 schools, 8 in Tamil Nadu, 1 in AP.
5200 students, 56% on scholarship. Rest pay nominal fee
Ashok
IshaGramotsavam 14 years,4600 village, 42lac people, 3500 Teams, 40k Players -34k men 6k women. 90day
tournament across TamilNadu & AndhraPradesh.15 to 65 age all play http://www.youtu.be/e4zk37UyHA4 i hope
may be as u say, its 2cover alleged SCAM
Out of 300 native breeds, only 30 exist in India today and @ishafoundation @sashgurujv has been breeding 16 of
these rare native breeds for the last 20 years or SCAM as you say i guess.
http://www.pic.twitter.com/U6rRdhJtRR
Maharashtra is the rst & most pro-active state to take up implementation of #RallyforRivers through plantation on
riparian land which will immensely bene t the farmers of water-stressed Yavatmal.
http://www.pic.twitter.com/O2x3DHIJAy or SCAM as u say.
Ashok
Bro if its SCAM TO YOU. Velliangiri Farmer Producers’ Organization, VUPCL, under the guidance of Isha Foundation,
posts an annual turnover of INR 7.91 Cr. Here’s @DeccanChronicle report @PGH_Isha #IshaAgroMovement
http://www.pic.twitter.com/84onjJhetr
FARMERPRODUCERORGANISATION (FPOs). Farmers come together & Sell. PLUS Get loans, technology, knowledge-
resource sharing, better PRICE http://www.youtu.be/v5GNBQDU0j0 or still a SCAM as u say.
Hope TO you this isnt SHOWOFF – @TataTrusts have come forward to partner with #IshaAgroMovement for the
natural farming movement. #SRMTrichyGreenProject #SRMTrichy @SadhguruJV #SubhashPalekarNaturalFarming
#NaturalFarming @PGH_Isha
http://www.pic.twitter.com/k9gmO5ih0p
Ashok
Hope TO you this isnt SHOWOFF – #IshaVidhya SUPPORT 1100 students after completion. Have atleast 1 English-
medium school in all 32 districts in Tamil Nadu. 55% 1st generation @ school, 46% girls. 7158 students nearby
villages, with 61% (4019) of students on free education
Hope TO you this isnt SHOWOFF. #IshaVidhya 7,738 kids. Reaching 121 rural gov schools in Tamil Nadu bene ting
50,000 students. In Andhra Pradesh, a project for 3000 Gov schools, bene ting over 100000 kids & 10.5k teachers
http://www.youtu.be/vmA5POSVLF0
Hope TO you this isnt Showo – Part 5. 34031788 saplings planted till date
http://www.youtu.be/5_olAGmBvMY Isha #ProjectGreenHands. Guiness Record- 17Oct2006, 852587 saplings
planted in 1day. May b as U say its still a ponzy scheme to build Isha corpus. Not ALL donate / plant saplings
Hope TO you this isnt SHOWOFF. 14 yrs #IshaGramotsavam 4600 village, 42lac people, 3500 Teams, 40k Players
-34k men 6k women. 90day tournament across TamilNadu-AndhraPradesh.15 to 65 age ALL play
http://www.youtu.be/e4zk37UyHA4 @SadhguruJV small contribution for Rural India.
Ashok
Hope to you this isnt SHOWOFF – @SadhguruJV at SRM Medical College, Trichy to launched the 9-day natural
farming training workshop to be conducted by Natural Farming expert, Shri Subhash Palekar.
#SRMTrichyGreenProject #SRMTrichy
http://www.pic.twitter.com/zVxs7M Zt
NT
“Discuss, Debate. Think”
a person who
refuses to acknowledge that it was impossible for aristotle and heraclitus to meet
refuses to acknowledge that it was clearly plagiarized from osho talk, very closely too.
refuses to acknowledge a study that clearly proves that orbs are just camera artifacts
does not know what debate means. when you are wrong and proven to be wrong, you never admit it, you never
had.
“Have you seen a dying snake? Where do snakes die? Its very Rare. Point is Snakes know when they die”
someone who thinks like this does not know what thinking means. there is nothing to “debate” here, just feel sorry
how brainless people in meditation groups are.
a person who posts 10 or 15 posts at a time is just a spammer.

a person who posts the same post in multiple forums is just a spammer.
you have been trying to defend jaggu for almost an year across the web, with the same posts you started here.
you are an SEO guy. you act like an SEO guy, that is you are a professional link spammer with nonsense text. I can
see why you feel your life is meaningless and want to chase gurus.
no body reads 10 or 15 posts repeating same things we have already read, saying the same brainwash phrases like
“dig deep”.
look everywhere, no one behaves like this, makes 10-15 posts. you talk about mental diarrhea. you think
meditation cures it. funny thing is, it looks like it actually causes it. I have seen only one other person who had it on
this site. both of you are meditation baba followers. do you think, anyone who reads your posts thinks – this guy
thinks deliberately. this guy has organized thoughts? no. in this entire forum, you probably had the least organized
thoughts. and you guys say meditation organizes your mind and you have been doing it for 5 years.
all babas have charity fronts. they all hide behind tax-exempt non-pro ts. we already know. they are always busy
starting “movements”. it allows them to skim money o the books, like Rs. 42 per sapling. that is how ram rahim
and jaggu get their money for expensive clothes, bikes, cars and helicopters, not with his poultry farm money. you
don’t think so? nd his tax returns and post.
meanwhile, I was reading this.

https://www.vulture.com/2018/04/why-i-hate-gurus.html
and this
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelschein/2018/04/12/how-to-become-a-guru-in-4-easy-steps/
NT
as per ram rahim singh’s dera sacha sauda web site, he has
22 guiness world records

44 asia book of records records
3 limca book of records
7 india book of records
https://www.derasachasauda.org/welfare-world-records/
he has 11 pages of welfare activities like schools, tree plantation, schools, blood camps and so on.
nityananda also has world records and similar welfare activities.
I don’t need to make 15 posts to say this. anyone can google, go to their web sites and check.
in fact only these corrupt brain washing baba crooks have as many records like this because they want to create
the image of being saints to distract from the looting of money in the back.
they often get large public grants with the in uence of the corrupt politicians they are in bed with, do some work
while skimming o money from it and hardly mention the public money they got while advertising the projects.
Ashok
This is like few scientists are fraud so all scientists are fraud.
Read Properly….
acquired @Sadhgurujv will leave t country http://www.youtu.be/zw9-Bot4FyU
It only shows where you guys stand…say all nonsense and give it tag of science…
No..but u will say.i T can’t be right..say..ur own assumptions again and say it’s science..and hence ur proven
right..while whole world knows ur wrong….
So much for saying others are brainless..
Ashok
Hey Mr.@NTBrainy..
It’s one thing to have brains, you got to know how to use it..
You might have all the facts, knowledge but you just don’t know what to make of it…simply u say just its science…
Even if it’s science, see if it’s right or wrong ..use your brain rst and then say about others…
Meanwhile in other news..from Forbes

.
Now don’t say this is forbesindia, paid news..wat the hell is Forbes.com doing while forbesindia publishes this
news…
Hmm..i know..start crying…& say it’s science
Hear from Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev of the Isha Foundation and consultant Dr Ram Charan who have designed
unique leadership programmes to help entrepreneurs scale up their businesses
http://www.forbesindia.com/article/beyond-business/how-to-scale-up-your-enter-prise-conver-sations-with-
sadhguru-dr-ram-charan/34159/1
Sadhguru Interviewed by Forbes India
https://isha.sadhguru.org/in/en/blog/article/sadhguru-interviewed-by-forbes-india
I know what you will say he’s advising on business..see I told u he’s money minded..great rst of all spirituality only
he’s fake..whole world knows it as you say..& still Forbes goes to interview him on business…inspite of having
ridiculed by the same parent company…
Come up with one more of your assumptions and declare..it’s science…others are wrong..
Btw, y the hell no one is taking up the challenge and simply putting stu all over net to prove Isha or Jaggi is fake…
Oh I know wait..coz u guys are rationalists, simply whatever u say is right..n we need to agree..
Where’s ur Nayak..now..y can’t he or his herd go and prove he’s wrong..no.again u will say..bla..bla..we can do it
sitting and typing…there are countless proofs already..y waste time..smells like fear..and cry ur right…
NT
Nayak or any superstition buster can turn any baba’s fake stu upside down in an hour. jaggu and other fake babas
never put themselves in a situation where they can be tested.
he can’t come with his whole delegation, sit on a stage set up by his psycophants, ll the audience with his followers
and then let his interrogator meekly ask questions for two minutes and dominate the rest of the time, cutting him
o . that is all these ram rahim and jaggu types do.
ram rahim had a reporter killed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ram_Chander_Chhatrapati
and the comedian who made a joke about him harassed until he was forced to apologize, just like jaggu still has
that kid Joe harassed to this day.
https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/television/kiku-sharda-sent-to-14-days-judicial-custody-for-
mimicking-baba-gurmeet-ram-rahim-singh/
both ram rahim and jaggu of course deny any instigation.
it is easy. just call him on stage, break a thermometer, give him mercury and tell him to solidify it on live TV.
give him 12 glasses of water, add ohso’s famous patented cholera water drops to one and ask him to nd which
one has it with his rudraksha.
“Where’s ur Nayak..now..y can’t he or his herd go and prove he’s wrong..no.again u will say..bla..bla..we can do it
sitting and typing…there are countless proofs already..y waste time..smells like fear..and cry ur right…”
why do you always talk like this when uncomfortable facts are placed before you? this is your so called meditation
detachment? then you turn around and say it is all my fault you are like this. I didn’t even call you stupid for that
“snakes see their death ahead” nonsense argument.
“Oh I know wait..coz u guys are rationalists, simply whatever u say is right..”
it is the opposite. it isn’t right because a rationalist said it. rationalists only say it because it is right….. it is right
because it has facts, science, knowledge, logic and brains behind it. but for some mad reason, that should all be
ignored for the baba-brainwashed.
the mad reason is you got some tingly feeling since you held your breath and now the brain does not work right.
“n we need to agree..”
exactly. when facts, science, knowledge and logic are given for an argument, you are expected to agree. if you can’t,
then don’t pretend you are “debating” or “discussing”. just go to your own blog and write about your beliefs in your
safe space. here, you are not expected to deny facts, science, knowledge and logic and still have any respect.
Ashok
October 20, 2019 at 11:12 am
Running as usual, simply not ready to take up the challenge.
Ashok
October 20, 2019 at 11:20 am
https://youtu.be/WaZbGBrXO2c
This is what you rationalists are capable, just say ur right mindlessly…on all topics
& Here one more
https://youtu.be/ipeWg7yFsQ0
& Sitting at computer… that’s it…
NT
why do you think they are rationalists? did they tell you they were rationalists? let me know if you have proof that
one of these had declared that they were rationalists (see, I can also talk like jaggu).
they ladies don’t even seem to be journalists, forget rationalists, but just lady NGOs, who are not used to asking
questions getting tackled by a man with a reputation to slither like a snake from questions. they were not even
asking any questions about his fake miracles, which is what a rationalist focuses on.
a godman has practice in dealing with critics and similarly experienced (not just some rational guy like me with no
practice or experience) rationalists have practice dealing with godmen crooks.
jaggu is a godman because he says he can perform miracles, like sweetening water and solidifying mercury.
Ramdev isn’t as far as I know. sai baba is a godman because he faked pulling gold necklaces from air.
jaggu even said he had x-ray vision like superman when he was a kid before he did any meditation. so he is a
pathological liar with a full experience in defending those lies. so he will always be able to “handle”, “shutdown”,
“destroy” inexperienced questioners.
pranic healing debunking on live tv
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/12/05/an-indian-skeptic-brilliantly-debunked-a-pranic-healer-
on-live-tv/
tantra debunking on live tv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmo1a-bimAM (3 parts)
jaggu is blabber and cut-o king of india, that I accept, but that won’t save him from a lie that he can solidify
mercury. don’t give me 10 science facts and 20 superstitions about mercury, just solidify it. don’t talk, do. what
exactly do you think will happen?
I think he will just talk his way out of it as usual, just like you are trying to talk your way out of
orbs
jesus chronology
heraclitus and aristotle chronology
obvious link to osho text
earth being shapeless
sperm being energy
ideomotor e ect
but he will do it a lot better because he is an expert at things like this.
give these guys 2 hours with jaggu on stage and they will completely undress him. they know how to handle fakers
like him as well as how jaggu knows how to handle journalists. but jaggu is smart about these things. so he will
never get caught like that.
Ashok
Running as usual, simply not ready to take up the challenge.
Read Properly…
acquired @Sadhgurujv will leave t country.
So @NT case not only journos ANYONE can go and ask for proofs for whatever you ClAiM is fake.. and prove them
wrong… Don’t just stick to land scam, you can go ask proof on whatever you call as fake..
Countless drumheads everyday pose lot of stu on internet on how they are fake..that’s the max they can
do…..@isha, @sadhguru can’t keep proving and posting stu like you, or for every Tom, dick and @NT like you…on
the internet…
Dumb head, so now Journalists are also not up to the mark for you, they are not rationalists for you… he he.. go on
..escape…Man the world needs you..why r u wasting time shitting stu online with mundane people like us..ur
genius but still spend ALL UR SMARTNESS arguing with us…ha..ha..
Ur smart man..pls ..go save the world…
You are smarter than Sadhguru, logical than him but still just the maximum your intelligence does is arguing with
others, and those are also mundane people as you say….he..he..
https://youtu.be/WaZbGBrXO2c
This is what you rationalists are capable, just say ur right mindlessly…on all topics
No but again you just Sit at computer… that’s it & falsely claim you are right…and whole world is brainless for you…
ur science jokes are becoming quite self embarrassing…pls go on..ha..ha..ha…
NT
October 20, 2019 at 10:10 pm
ignoring ashok who is at this point just trolling for things already answered
https://np.reddit.com/r/india/comments/6m0egr/what_is_your_opinion_on_sadhguru/
“I have a close family friend who was a follower of Sadhguru. The reason I say was, is because said family friend got
involved with Isha during a di cult period in her life. she was having some domestic problems and someone
suggested to her to go listen to Sadhguru’s talk. Now you have to imagine the state of mind she was in, desperate
and helpless. She lapped up everything he said and was completely devoted to him. She didn’t pause to question
anything that she heard. You’ve heard his voice right? The way he speaks? You automatically believe everything he
says.
She lost her husband around this time. Her fellow followers advised her to shift to his ashram in Coimbatore telling
her it is for her own good. Objectively, the advice was good. She could devote herself to teaching or conducting
workshops there and her accommodation would be taken for. Since she had no kids and parents/in laws to take
care of, she had no other responsibility to ful ll.
But once she shifted there, they slowly started demanding from her to transfer her property to the foundation.
They kept bothering her to release her assets (all in her name now that the husband was gone) to them. Because
why does she need it anymore? This constant pestering opened her eyes. She decided to come back home. But
even that was not easy. They blackmailed her emotionally saying she had made use of all the teachings of
Sadhguru, and this is the least she could do to repay him. They accused her of being sel sh. They tried every trick in
the book to stop her from leaving the fold. Thankfully for her, her friends from back home stood by her and got her
back home. Now she runs her own small business and is living as happy as a widowed, middle aged woman who is
independent and self-su cient can be.”
I personally know someone just like this in a di erent meditation group. this guy’s life is not going well, divorce, no
job, di cult family etc, so he ended up with them. they keep pestering him to do the same thing, to transfer all his
properties to his group and they will take care of him. fortunately, he has more sense than that.
Ashok
Hey @NT brains,great ur comedy is another level.
Vow imagine this they force people to sell their property..ha.ha..ha..
Trust me, this is getting easier, one such story out from someone who is mindwashed in Isha foundation, & boy
Sadhguru will be in huge trouble..why what is keeping such stories from coming out and MOST IMPORTANTLY
being PROVEN as TRUE, from 1992,(time since Isha was established) coz…it’s stories..
Common @NT case, today we can see videos of disgruntled soldiers about ill-treatment being meted out to them in
army..
Remember wiki leaks, Edward Snowden..even US govt could not keep its secret…so pls…stop it..ur jokes are ..
hilarious…
Nothing can be hidden for long…
Till date not one case is legally proven that people have been forced to sell their assets to Isha…
Ur imagination is simply… @#$&, I mean no words…
Also if such is the seriousness…I will make it easier, that means lot of folks are still there against their will and
mindwashed…
Read this properly..
But you are Running as usual, simply not ready to take up the challenge.
Read Properly…
**If @ishafoundation is SCAM as you say, Open invitation by @SadhguruJV on air @ World Economic Forum. Any
acquired @Sadhgurujv will leave t country.
So @NT case not only journos ANYONE can go and ask for proofs for whatever you ClAiM is fake.. and prove them
wrong… Don’t just stick to land scam, you can go ask proof on whatever you call as fake.**
There is still lot of social activism, powerful honest people in the system who can bring the truth out… Isha is not
above the law…bit of planning and social pressure, anyone can go and enquire Isha on what you are saying…so
please…cook up better stories…
Infact, just few rationalists like you…for a few days…open a forum online, o ine, media, youtube, twitter,
websites… Heard of meetOO campaign…
It’s not a big deal..let one person COME OUT FROM ISHA, even anonymously and say their property was forcefully
or coaxed to be sold…
Don’t waste arguing with mundane people like us, just start one hashtag in twitter and let FOLKS in Isha,
anonymously tweet coming out with truth…it can be done without revealing original identities…but stories need
some credibility…it has to have clear descriptions atleast to show the chain of events..which can be veri ed if
someone wanted too… identities can be hidden…
This is getting easier…@NT brains…

just say whosever property is con scated by Isha, just tell them to come out in open…we will help you…give one
small encouragement…
One YouTube video, one solid evidence, not allegations..let someone come out in open..infact, there are many like
by one Nakkiran Tamil media, where they say such allegations..but that’s it..no proofs, no further steps, no taking it
to a logical conclusion..just throw mud and keep quiet like you at the computer…
No after reading this haphazardly… again you just Sit at computer… that’s it & falsely claim you are right…and whole
world is brainless for you…ur science jokes are becoming quite self embarrassing…pls go on..ha..ha..ha…
& Simply don’t share some dumb allegations as I said everyday nut cases like you keep posting nonsense all over
net…
Instead..it’s open challenge..by @Sadhguru..go there and enquire…and bring him down….this is more easy…
Man gotta say..again..sorry.i M trying to control but.. ur jokes..

Hats o ..ha..ha…God level..
NT
babagiri
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/income-tax-raids- nd-rs-500-crore-unaccounted-money-from-kalki-bhagwan-
ashram-1610887-2019-10-19
https://starofmysore.com/spiritual-spinners/
“The Income Tax Department conducted raids last week where it seized Rs. 43.9 crore in cash, Rs.17.5 crore in US
currency, 1,271 carats of diamonds and discovered Rs. 500 crore of undisclosed income! All this not from a thieving
greedy businessman but from a once LIC Clerk named Vijayakumar, who became Kalki Bhagwan !
Today even a modest Guru suddenly develops a fetish for “pre x” or a “ su x.” They are no more satis ed being a
mere Guru, now they want a “Jagad,” “Sadh” or a “Bhagwan” strung along. Then there are the palatial Ashrams and
love for expensive vehicles.
Finally, once they become popular with enough devotees to troll the “non-believers” they think they can solve big
problems that even scientists and lawyers cannot — from water crisis to land disputes. And they do this while
driving fuel guzzling expensive cars that pollute and hobnobbing with politicians.
Now, like we ask any corporate leader, how much money is enough money? Of course, Godmen provide a spiritual
service and they can charge for it. From Osho’s Meditation lessons to Jaggi’s Inner Engineering sessions; Be it Kalki’s
Oneness classes or Sri Sri’s Art of Living lessons, there is always money involved but where will one stop? And when
will we stop addressing them as Bhagwans? Because they are mere mortals just like us.
For now, a spiritual guide is understandable but while bowing at their feet please let us not leave our brains there,
because soon our wallets too will be left there. The truth is, in the end, everyone must deal with their own pain and
su ering. All anyone can do is hold your hand while you are at it. Your loving family and friends are a better bet
than any Godman. So it’s better to invest your time, money and emotions on them instead of a Godman.”
Ashok
Cheers, my mornings just got comedier…ha..ha…
Stick to topic..show one SOLID PROOF from “someone” whose property is con scated…by Isha
Meanwhile keep sharing ur jokes…world needs your dose of scienti c stupidity..to show how people how to use
brains..and not juke puke data…
Keep up the comedies…@NT
NT
it is on topic, the highlighted text exactly describes baba trolls like you.
oh, now you want solid proof, baby?
you did not need solid proof to say one-sided rudraksha breaks your social life, snakes sense their future death and
some crazy news article was enough to prove that man became energy ball and ew to sky. you thought
astrologer’s phone screenshots were good enough to prove that your favorite astrologer was right. so why do I now
need to have better proof you hypocrite? you certainly did not need solid proof that jaggu made mercury solid.
I will show you solid proof as soon as you show solid proof that jaggi made mercury solid.
you don’t need to respond to my every post. you can, but they are not all made for you.
Ashok
See @NT your making this hilarious…pls be serious atleast..
Just coz 1000s of scientist, doctors are fake, even remaining few are fake is it..so much for u being rationale..
Point is Isha, Jaggi con scated property.

First of all you say he’s minting billions, crores with his fake yoga, kriya, selling items, luxury costs at Isha, he can
easily mint money by just coaxing or mindwashing people in name of Spirituality..
So don’t contradict and comedy yourself…if I am smart and I can mindwash people to get money, donate, spend
money, buy useless stu and I am making billions…still Jaggi suddenly becomes fool to con scate individual
properties..and there is not one person who has come out till date with PROOFS, just allegations…ha..ha…nice joke
@NT..
Okay jokes apart..share one proof of Ex-Isha Ashram it has to be conclusive undeniable proof like the below one.
This is by Sarah, HR and kinda media person who was at Nityananda Ashram and enjoyed Life..
Published on Feb 2, 2018

Look how this spiritual Nityananda Ashram is turned out to be a Fun place for these Foreign Youngsters.
https://youtu.be/C-omcb4wU6M
And now see this,
Brainwashed by Nithyananda; Now I’m Speaking Out About his DANGEROUS CULT! By the same Sarah Stephanie
Landry
This is evidence…Mr @NT pseudo rationale..
I ask proofs about Isha, u share about kalki, Sri Sri and so Jaggi is also fake, bla..bla..and u call urself rational…
& Again u call urself rational…and rational…
Share one Ex-Isha Ashramite.. it has to be proper proof… conclusive..not some website, blog or allegations…with
cooked up stories…and mere links…of ur pseudo rationale… assumptions…
The one I shared is a clear video how the person Sarah trusted Nitya and then she came out in open…
Wait…pls, don’t tell ur going to cook up one more story…like Jaggi powerful PR, covers up all allegations..
Ok go on..I M waiting..my morning blues are sure missing their e ect on me today…Keep up the comedy…
NT
@Ashok
“Brainwashed by Nithyananda”
yes, I was hoping that you too will make a similar video in the future and compare that to your trigonometry speech
video that you hid. but lets keep expectations real. you are not as smart as Sarah. you might never wake up like she
did.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgcnUomC80plhYthWonXaeg
also ashok, why does your channel now read: “This account has been terminated due to multiple or severe
violations of YouTube’s policy against spam, deceptive practices, and misleading content or other Terms of Service
violations”.
were you trolling and spamming all jaggu’s critics videos as well? funny, I remember you ling reports on other
people’s videos. may be karma is real :-). but you never learn anything.
and before you accuse me, I had nothing to do with it. I just checked now to see if you unhid that silly speech of
yours that you were already embarrassed about.
@Tanmaya
I enjoyed your “The psychology of how godmen come to control the minds of millions of devotees” from Outlook
India. please post more like that if you come across any.
Ashok
@NT brainless…just puking data..
Show proof how Isha con scated property..then we can move to ur other nonsense…
As usual escaping
Ashok
@Tanmaya also tell @NT to see this story on outlookindia as well..& not just accept whatever he reads as factual
and scienti c…
Meanwhile in other news from outlookindia
Cauvery Calling: A Daring Venture That Must Be Allowed To Succeed
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/amp/india-news-cauvery-calling-a-daring-venture-that-must-be-allowed-to-
succeed/337857
Ashok
Read this:
Muthamma & Finding the Truth about Isha Land Grabbing allegation
Recently, I was shown an article by Subhashini Ali, published in ‘The Wire’ magazine under the guise of highlighting
a poor woman’s struggles against a rich organization. I felt a strong need to expose such articles and writers after
reading it.
I have produced the article here verbatim and have provided inline comments. We will go through each paragraph
of this article and see how the lies have been piled upon one after another. At the end of this counter-argument, I
will try & lay bare to you all the tricks of book played by a smart journalist against the Isha Foundation.
Article link: https://thewire.in/217548/revisiting-muthamma-little-hamlet-near-coimbatore/
The article starts with this line: “A closer look shows how the lives of poor tribal people gets a ected when they lose
of access to land and forests.”
Beware of such journalist’s tricks to create an emotional front to the readers.
On January 9, I kept my second promise made to Muthamma and visited her small Adivasi hamlet. I last met her
about six months ago in Dharmapuri during the state conference of the Tamil Nadu unit of the All India Democratic
Women’s Association (AIDWA) and had spoken to her at length about the struggle that she and a small band of
Adivasis have been waging against Jaggi Vasudev’s Isha Foundation.
Wow .. a nice emotional touch indeed. For somebody who reads it the rst time, this paragraph establishes the
context that a David (poor muthamma) is ghting a Goliath (Isha Foundation). But this is just a deceptive front-
ending trick.
I had kept my rst promise to tell her story then, which was carried by The Wire in September 2017.
https://thewire.in/politics/isha-foundation-coimbatore-land-grabbing
And had been widely read. At a time when Vasudev was making waves across the country in the company of the
rich and powerful, the article raised questions and doubts about his campaign to revive rivers through river-linking
and tree plantation.
Oh, by the way, the article claimed that the Rally For Rivers was unscienti c but ironically, it was the article itself
that was completely unscienti c and dismissive of facts! The rebuttal is here:
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.in/2017/09/rally-for-rivers-issues-raised-1.html
Ashok
Part 2:
Vasudev’s reputation and his promotion of river-linking received an even more severe jolt when the famous
‘Waterman’, Rajendra Singh, was quoted in an article in The Wire by Nityanand Jayaraman as saying that“
https://thewire.in/environment/jaggi-vasudev-rally-for-rivers-river-interlinking-waterman-rajendra-singh-gadkari
…In my interview (during the Prime Ministership of Atal Bihari Vajpayee) I said that interlinking of rivers is highly
dangerous. It will not join India. It will not make India. It will break India. I had said that it will not protect us either
from drought or oods, and that the project will only escalate con ict within the country. It will complicate the
disputes between upper riparian users and lower riparians. River waters are like the blood owing through the
bodies of di erent people. Each river comes from its own genepool.
Just as you cannot just mix bloods, you cannot just divert one river’s water to another. The ecosystems will retaliate.
We are not able to handle the disputes in Sutlej, Indus and Kaveri. Our judicial system will never be able to resolve
the disputes that arise out of linking rivers.”
I am not sure where the author got this text but this is the longest prose of what Rajendra singh had spoken about
apparently! It is in fact longer than his actual speech – the lies start from right this point.
Interestingly enough, Vasudev had himself, in a March 2017 post, written:
http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/sadhguru/spot/saving-indias-lifeline-why-rivers-need-trees/
“The river interlinking project that some people advocate may work in a temperate climate, but not in a tropical
region with high temperatures and seasonal rain. It would be super-expensive and detrimental for the rivers and
the organic activity around them.”
By July, however, he completely changed his stand. Perhaps in consonance with the Bharatiya Janata Party
government’s commitment to this hare-brained scheme, Vasudev now started a campaign ‘to create awareness on
protecting rivers and inter-linking them.’ With this turnaround began his jet-hopping to various state capitals. By
September, however, his tall claims were punctured and not much is now being heard about his magical mantras to
revive rivers.
This is the rst allegation that the author makes. But what is the proof for this! Let’s see what the actual policy draft
recommendations of ‘Rally For Rivers’ really talks about the interlinking of rivers.
“Against the economic rationale proposed for the project; there are strong economic arguments, bio-physical and
climate science arguments, and ecological arguments that advise us to exercise abundant caution when
considering such a large-scale engineering of our water resources.”
“The transfer of water across geographies is mainly supposed to stimulate economic activity of agriculture, industry
and services. But natural endowments have always been di erent and so have the economic activities around
them.”
“The livelihood impact assessment for these shermen, as well as other livelihoods dependent on river ecosystems,
needs to be conducted as part of feasibility studies for interlinking projects”
“Many river basins in India have distinct geology and biogeography. In addition, they carry di erent pollution loads.
Inter-basin transfer could severely disrupt the ecology of both contributing and receiving rivers, with potential loss
of river sheries, aquatic biodiversity and proliferation of invasive and alien species.”
“In our view, the underlying assumption of interlinking of rivers, that the average ow in each river is constant, and
inter-basin transfers will yield additional water resources for exploitation, has been weakened. At our present
juncture, we need to see our rivers as endangered entities that need to be nursed back to life by augmenting their
ows.
This is of paramount importance. Shifts in cropping patterns towards less water intensive crops as well as more
e cient irrigation practices need to be encouraged with adequate investment and support. Only after that, can
small-scale river linking projects (to start with) be scrutinized carefully in terms of biophysical, climate change,
ecological and economic aspects.”
It is clear as daylight to anyone who has read the draft recommendations from ‘Rally For Rivers’ document that the
interlinking of rivers has been very carefully dealt with – the concept is de nitely not supported blindly as the
author claims. In fact, the word of caution is strong enough to be deterrent to rst-time readers.
Singh has continued to rail against Vasudev’s plan. In December, he gave an interview saying: “I can say this now
after three months – this ‘Rally for Rivers’, is not for rivers. It is for the land, for money, for power, for fame and for
name.” He described the dangerous nexus between godmen and politicians: “When politicians want to get votes by
showcasing the issue of rivers, they push the babas in front. And when the baba feels threatened of being sent to
jail for taking over 45 acres of tribal land – then he chases the politicians, asking them for protection. …. When
godmen are afraid of going to prison and politicians are greedy for votes, such a nexus is born, and it is dangerous.
Don’t let this nexus be formed in the name of rivers.”
Now comes the casual slide-it-under-the-carpet allegation!
The background for this comes from Singh’s meeting in Coimbatore with a social activist Piyush Manush who fed all
sorts of nonsense and Singh promptly parroted it without resorting to nding the truth from the other party.
Piyush is an activist known to be throwing all sorts of allegations against Isha Foundation. He has recently been
served a legal notice by the Foundation as well. His blu on ‘Rally For Rivers’ using BJP phone number was also
recently called out in social media causing major public embarassment to him and he has been itching to get back
on Isha for this.
First of all, the problem of rivers dying is a very real one. We do not need a politician or a baba to tell that to us.
Most of us are facing the issue on a daily basis. What Sadhguru did through the rally was to bring people to
acknowledge that this is a real problem that needs to be addressed quickly. Not just that, his team put together a
policy recommendations document that addresses the issue in such mind-boggling depth!
Ashok
Part-3:
If one has not gone through the RFR document, they should to understand how farmers problems are considered,
how the industry can contribute, how sand mining can be stopped, how individuals can contribute, etc. A whole
slew of issues related to river restoration and rejuvenation have been addressed. The draft document is at this link:
http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/social-impact/rally-for-rivers/revitalization-rivers-india-draft-policy-recommendation-
fundamentals/
The whole controversy about Isha Foundation grabbing 45 acres of tribals’ land came to fore in early 2017 just
before their MahaShivratri celebrations were to be kicked o . A lady by the name Muthammal claimed so, led a
case through an organization (formed in December 2016) and the matter is sub-judice now. Right now, it would be
inappropriate to do a media trial without putting the facts out clearly. Such a comment by Rajendra is really ‘below-
the-belt’ in this case as he is assuming a lot of things! Would he be equally eager to apologize to Sadhguru if the
case is written o in the court?!
The charges levelled at Vasudev’s door by Singh are signi cant because they reiterate not only what Muthamma
and members of her tribal community have been alleging, but also echo the litany of charges that
environmentalists, wildlife conservationists, human rights activists, members of the judiciary and lawyers and
government agencies have leveled at the Isha Foundation.
Can the author even name all these categories of people? No, she cannot, except for Piyush Manush, Jayaraman &
Siva who have been opposing every damn thing that the Isha Foundation has been doing. This is the classic
exaggeration technique.
Ful lling the second of our promises made to Muthamma, the visit to her hamlet of Muthatvayil and seeing what
we had only heard or read about, opened our eyes to the vulnerability of the lives of poor, tribal people whose
livelihood su ers when they lose access to forests and land, and when large projects, even spiritual ones, impact
the local ecology.
Another gem – throw an assumption that poor people are somehow impacted by a rich villain & not bother to back
it with proofs.
The multi-structured, concrete Isha Foundation complex (in Coimbatore) is clearly visible from this little hamlet.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn.thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/25134253/isha-foundation.jpg
Question to the author – Ma’am, if the ‘Concrete’ Isha Foundation was so visible from the ‘poor’ hamlet you had
visited, why put up a FILED PICTURE and too an aerial one, not the REAL ONE? You could have simply captured it
from your camera or mobile phone! A simple and clean reason seems to be that your statement is a lie.
There used to be forests nourished by the wide and fast- owing Noyyal river all around but not anymore.
This is a statement that could mean anything! After all, Noyyal is a tributary of Kaveri river and has its origins near
Velliangiri hills running several hundred kilometres to meet with Kaveri. Does the author mean about the forests
near the origin place of Noyyal or on its way to Kaveri? If she is talking about the origin (i.e.) Velliangiri, the
statement is farce!
This is the map showing the path of Noyyal river from its origin to destination. The green areas are where the
forests and cultivated areas lie.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YfNDbz6TAxs/WyIGv9wieII/AAAAAAAABNI/plqHvqcOl0kWCPop3SvOBx-
lg0MmbLg7ACLcBGAs/s400/noyy1.jpeg
The green cover of Velliangiri mountain, where Noyyal’s origin is, have only been increasing and not decreasing. If
so, how would that amount to destruction and by whom? By the way, one should know that forests don’t get
nourished by rivers and this is basic geography. It is the rivers that get nourished by the forests primarily, especially
in the peninsular southern part of India.
Or is the author talking about the forests on the way beyond Coimbatore to Kaveri, why is that even relevant in this
context? Is she implying falsely that somehow Isha Foundation caused that too? Wouldn’t that be an exaggerated
lie, even for this author?
The foundation occupies acres of land from which thousands of trees must have been cleared.
‘Must have been cleared’! Is the author making a statement about the past or is she throwing an allegation around
casually? It does seem like the latter to me. I would challenge the author to prove it if she is making such a
statement.
Not a single tree has been cleared for Isha Foundation’s buildings nor for the AdiYogi statue. Google Earth images
have time and again been produced to debunk such myths being spread about the Isha Foundation.
Ashok
Part-4:
A wide, tarred road leading to the huge car park full of SUVs, buses and cars in front of the foundation has also
been constructed. Beside the car park is the new tourist attraction – the huge, black head of Adiyogi Shankara,
several hundreds of feet high.
So, the car park she is talking about is that one near AdiYogi statue. The author should know that the tarred road
she is referring to has been laid by the Government and not by the Isha Foundation.
This road has been in existence for over 15 years now! I would be damned if Isha Foundation is being alleged to
have put up this road. Secondly, the statue of AdiYogi’s face is 112 feet high. ‘Several hundreds of feet high’ is truly
an exaggeration!
In the open spaces next to it are the ‘temporary structures’ that the foundation claimed had been erected only for
the Mahashivaratri celebrations.
They had assured the state authorities that these would be removed immediately after the monsoons. Of course,
nothing of the sort has been done and the ‘temporary’ structures look very permanent, even from a distance.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn.thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/25134511/Adiyogi-isha.jpg
What are the temporary structures that the author is talking about? Would she even care to provide the list of such
structures? Again, I am lost on why she put up a FILED picture rather than capturing the actual ‘temporary structure’
she is claiming.
Simply because there are none there! This ‘temporary structure’ thingy is yet another lie in the arsenal.
Muthamma’s small hut, made entirely of mud and leaves, is on one side of the hamlet. It does not have a door, only
a piece of cloth hangs like a curtain in the doorway. One of the mud walls leans to one side. A wild elephant barged
into it a few months ago. In front of Muthamma’s hut is what remains of the once-fast owing, wide Noyyal river,
now reduced to a few puddles.
The author is clearly an expert at making people appear poorer than they actually are and create sympathy for
them. It also makes me wonder if the author really knows anything about the Noyyal river at all! Those who really
want to understand about the river, should go through this detailed study by actual scientists about various factors
in uencing the Noyyal river:
http://eprints.atree.org/52/1/Wm_Noyyal_SA.pdf
It is clear from the study that natural ow of the

Noyyal is seasonal and occurs only during the north-east monsoon months!
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BRoVjOpVl-I/Wm20WPb9BjI/AAAAAAAABH0/djtAvdQZCC4UDMhwAFVQI0cS_S-
Yzi3CwCLcBGAs/s320/N1.png
Less than 0.1% of the Noyyal basin is in forest area.

Obviously, it is not the source of problems for Noyyal river. The very nature of Noyyal river being seasonal is the
primary reason for scarcity of water ow! And added to that the pollution of river on its way near Erode & Salem
along with changing demographics causing pressure on the riverine ecology is the reason.
The total population in the river basin has doubled in 20 years, from 19.5 lakhs in 1991 to 42 lakhs in 2011. As a
result of heavy urbanization, land use in the basin has moved away from agriculture towards urban and industrial
uses, re ecting the changing nature of occupations.
Environmentalists allege that the Isha Foundation has not only been accessing water directly from the river but has
also been polluting it with the minerals that it uses in the production of ‘Mantra plates’ that it sells to devotees at
very high prices. The Isha Foundation, of course, denies this.
Allegations can be thrown around by anyone. The question is do they have proof? If so, why not produce the proof
in the court of law and seek justice? If the proof is strong enough, why not produce in the media to throw light on
this issue?
All this is not being done simply because there are no such proofs and there is no such ‘usage of river’ or ‘pollution’
caused by the Isha Foundation. Such myths will not stand in the court of law but can be comfortably spread
through online media.
Muthamma was in a state of excitement. We were welcomed and then we participated in the ceremony before
their traditional deity, ate biscuits and snacks that they had taken so much trouble to buy for us and talked to them
about Isha. We knew much of what they told us but learnt one new fact – the Isha bus charges Rs 7 to take them to
town (Coimbatore) while the state bus charges Rs 5.
Wow – Isha is now running a bus service too!! That is news! And one may wonder why they still prefer to go by the
Isha bus than the state bus, if one such bus service exists? The logic de nitely beats me.
The community told us all about their movement and struggle for land. They all work as agricultural labour on the
nearby farms and yearn for land of their own. Muthamma is the only one who can nd no work at all since she is
considered a dangerous agitator. She is able to collect some owers once in a while and sell them on the roadside.
Her real work now is her activism. Not only is she active in the Tribal Association, she is also a committed AIDWA
activist.
Let’s talk about the ‘activist’ / ‘dangerous agitator’ Muthamma now. The ‘Tribal Association’ was formed only in late
2016.
Does the author know that Muthamma was working with Isha Foundation for over 20 years before that? For
personal gains and earning more money, she left her job & started spreading conspiracy theories about the
Foundation.
Muthamma has two sons and a daughter who is still working with the Isha Foundation! When her daughter
Gayathri was down with T.B., she was treated by the Isha Foundation through their social (free medical) project.
Muthamma’s last son is studying in Polytechnic college through Isha’s funding – through their social (rural school)
project.
Now, which organization would continue supporting someone’s family knowing that the person is spreading lies
and misinformation about them? It is only because of the inherent goodness in the folks at the Foundation. Even
Gayathri is vocally critical of her mother’s activities.
What is Muthamma doing with all the money she is getting from spreading lies about Isha Foundation?
Well, sources say that her husband, Mr.Palanisamy is building a house with that money in Kerala. So much for the
image of ‘poor’ Muthamma who lives in a hamlet prone to all natural elements!
Despite her slight frame and the many privations she has su ered, she is indefatigable. She is here, there,
everywhere…rapidly gaining the reputation of a leader. Muthamma’s fellow tribals already think of her as one.
Ashok
Part-5:
Here is yet again a led picture – of Muthamma, allegedly at AIDWA meeting. Why was she not captured on camera
in all her poverty? And why are people having food as if this is a marriage hall?
Let’s see actually what Muthamma does when she is not working in elds. She is a paid artist who dances for
anybody’s tunes.
https://i0.wp.com/cdn.thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/25135040/Muthamma-copy.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pURglPXFDVQ/Wm21hCRVFhI/AAAAAAAABH8/sqkvDjLM-
L8M42uNaAQ8ydXZgByA1fYXQCLcBGAs/s400/N2.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zFSKi89ssi0/Wm21hPfsTtI/AAAAAAAABIA/y8ItYzdPwlgor0MBg6F7qlPUhY-
8IgarACLcBGAs/s400/N3.jpg
Ashok
Part-6:
led picture – of Muthamma, allegedly at AIDWA meeting
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-
DKmbb6M8Kqk/Wm21hE3BBTI/AAAAAAAABIE/EhKCyPje02gbOUPw8xx5gI3ObA5klP08QCLcBGAs/s400/N4.jpg
Here she is seen dancing at an AIADMK party at Coimbatore. Sure, she looks a happy one for someone who has lost
all her land! Watch this video for more fun shots of our poor Muthamma:
See the video on this site:
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.com/2018/01/revisiting-muthamma- nding-truth-about.html
Preparations for music and dancing started as soon as the snacks were consumed. The drums were brought out
and heated on coals. A wizened old man brought out a brass horn. The men hung the drums around their necks
and started beating on them. Muthamma and some others started swaying and then dancing rhythmically. A few
young women and boys who were standing apart, a little critical and a little amused, could not resist the drumbeat
for long, and soon began dancing too. As did we, although we felt clumsy. Vasudev said once, rather superciliously,
that he was equally at home speaking to rulers and ‘dancing with beggars’. Perhaps he should have danced with his
Adivasi neighbours.
Ashok
Part-7:
The author is laughably o here and could have done some basic research in regards to how Isha has been helping
the surrounding tribal villages.
Here is what a few tribal villagers are sharing about the Isha Foundation:
What do the the local tribals say about Isha?

https://youtu.be/_aqfP0Jc1SY
Is Isha causing trouble to local villagers / tribals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoGkcRRRSvo
These sharings are very clear and honest. They have given their own names and village names also for anyone to
verify in individual capacity.
Isha has also been providing employment opportunities for the people in the surrounding localities. The
Foundation has gone public that over 375 people from the surrounding villages are engaged/employed either full-
time or part-time with them. They are nurtured for bringing out the inherent creative skills, training and provided
employment in various domains.
In a bid to provide skill based training Isha has been conducting tailoring classes for the past 3 years (till 2016) in
which 145 people have got trained so far. They are taught to the level of being able to set up a shop on their own.
Some people have even set up shops so far after getting trained.
So far, 112 houses (Dhanikandi – 39, Mullangadu – 20, Nellore padi – 5, Gandhi Colony – Semmedu – 3) have been
constructed so far by Isha foundation free of cost for people inhabiting surrounding villages!
Toilet facilities have also been built in 4 government schools located near Isha Yoga Center, Coimbatore
The government school at Semmedu village con rms that renovation works to the tune of 3 lakhs has been done
by Isha Foundation for the school.
Isha has been running mobile clinics since the year 2003 and has so far treated 1.9 lakh people in 54 villages in the
last 4 years alone (till 2016).
Rural health clinics have also been set up at Alandurai, muutathuvayal and kullapanayakanur (salem) to cater to the
needs of the rural people.
1380 households have been touched so far in semmedu village so far from ‘Dry waste’ and ‘solid waste’
management.
Isha’s social works have been applauded by eminent people like Dr.Sivathanu Pillai (colleague of Dr.APJ Abdul
Kalam, Dr. Satish Dhawan, etc.) and even organizations like Infosys Foundation.
The visit to Muthamma’s village was during a gathering in Coimbatore of activists and organisations with varied
interests and vocations who had been brought together by the actions of the Isha Foundation and others like it.
There was Venmani, a lawyer who belonged to a Dalit organisation, Adhi Thailar Katchi, who was active in the
movement to get land pattas for tribals and Dalits. Panneerselvan belonged to a human rights organisation,
Sameeha Needhi Katchi. Kalidoss was a member of OOSAI, a project to save rivers while
Sadhasivam worked on a project for the protection of wildlife. Piyush Manush is an environmentalist working in
Salem in the Salem Makkal Kulu, who was beaten and sent to jail because of his interventions. Siva, journalist and
activist who has led hundreds of RTI applications and gained access to much information about illegal land-
grabbing and construction in the Western Ghats forest reserves. R. Kamaraj and his wife run NGOs.
There were also people who had worked for Isha as volunteers and had children studying in their school. They were
disillusioned for various reasons and also had serious complaints about the way in which their children had been
treated.
Not withstanding the ‘disillusioned volunteers’, all other names are clearly Anti-Hindu & pro-Christian Church forces
that have been working against anyone who remotely supports Hindu idealogies in the Coimbatore-Salem-Erode
belt.
One cannot even call Piyush, Siva, etc. as environmentalists. At best, they can be named as activists since that is
what they are engaged in most of the time. This is common public knowledge. So, there is no wonder that they
have been collectively targeting the only decent tradition-and-culture reinforcing force in that area (i.e.) the Isha
Foundation.
Siva came to work in a newspaper in Coimbatore in 2011. He was assigned a story on elephants in the area. His
research continued for months and he learnt not only about elephants and their habits but also about the
destruction of their habitat that was forcing them to become dangerous. He learnt from responses to his RTI
applications that while there were very comprehensive government regulations in force in this area that controlled
and forbade di erent kinds of construction in di erent parts of the forest are, these were being outed with
impunity. He alleges that it is not just Isha but a wide range of organisations and institutions like Karunya University
(a Christian institution), Amruthamayi University, Chinmayananda Business University, some state government
organisations, various resorts etc. that need to be looked into.
According to the information gleaned by Shiva, in 2009, Isha sought permission for construction of four lakh square
metres but is believed to have constructed more than that.
‘Believed to have’! Madam Author, I personally believe you have been given 100 crores by the Christian Church to
write such an article. Can I allege so in a public media just like that? How ridiculous can this get?
Much of this lies in the bu er zone. The Karunya University, he alleges, has encroached on the ancient Adivasi
Sadiana temple and also on 97 acres of traditional common grazing land. Both the university and the foundation
started with 14.5 acres each in their possession. They now apparently possess 856 acres and 936 acres,
respectively.
Again, the allegations are generously sprinkled to indicate the Isha Foundation has somehow forcefully occupied
somebody’s lands. It could be a fact that the Foundation started with 15 acres and even grew to 800 acres, but what
if all this is legally purchased land? What is the author even trying to state here? Does the author have the proofs
that it is not legally purchased land?
Many of the other institutions and organisations and resorts and companies named by Shiva have also encroached
on hundreds of acres of land.
Along with the damage this unending rapaciousness is doing to the fragile eco-systems, ora and fauna of the
Western Ghats, it is also depriving traditional forest dwellers of their land, homes and livelihood. Their culture and
their way of life are also being destroyed. This dual tragedy is what drives Shiva, Muthamma and hundreds of
others to continue in their relentless pursuit of justice.
Siva knows that he is taking on very powerful, dangerous forces.
Now that you have come till point, brace yourselves for a crime story that will give you goosebumps. This is where
you tred into the league of ction writers such as this author who excel in exaggerating the poor David ghting the
rich Goliath!
The example of Rajesh Kumar is proof of this. Kumar was a national functionary of the Bhoodan Movement. In
2008, he took a delegation of Adivasis, including Muthamma, to meet J.
Jayalalithaa in Chennai, who was the then leader of the opposition. They gave her a memorandum requesting the
state government to help the Adivasis obtain possession of the 44 acres of land that they had received pattas for
under the Bhoodan voluntary land distribution scheme. She intervened on their behalf and the Tamil Nadu
commissioner of land rights ordered an enquiry into the matter. Armed with this signed order, Kumar returned to
Coimbatore.
Four days later, he was brutally murdered, beheaded. It was alleged that he was having an illicit a air with a
married Adivasi lady and that her husband had murdered him. The accused was eventually acquitted because he
su ered from severe disability and could not have committed the murder. His Adivasi wife remains very much part
of the struggle.
What is the relevance of this story in this context? Is the author alleging that somehow the AIADMK Government or
the Isha Foundation had something to do with this? If not, why even bring about a horror story here? This is yet
another trick employed by ction writers to create fear and doubt regarding a villain by telling an unrelated story
but subtly connecting them.
Is the author trying to imply that these are the same 44 acres alleged to have been occupied by Isha Foundation? If
so, can she produce the proof for the same?
One should also know that ALL the lands purchased by Isha Foundation are legally done. It is simple enough to get
an EC or le an RTI with the Land Registration o ce and verify this.
Fighting powerful vested interests who are protected not only by the administration and the state can only be done
by forging the widest possible unity.
A joint platform of all the organisations and individuals that met in Coimbatore along with AIDWA and the Tamil
Nadu Anti-Untouchability Forum has been formed to take forward the struggle for Adivasi and Dalit land rights, for
access to forest produce and for environmental protect. Revival of the Noyyal river may no longer remain a dream.
Perhaps, even the elephants will have their traditional paths restored to them.
Subhashini Ali
https://thewire.in/author/subhashini-ali
is a former member of parliament from Kanpur and politburo member of the Communist Party of India (Marxist).
Thankfully at the end of her article, the author nally confesses to be part of CPI(M) and that alone justi es the
ample creativity in ction writing such as this article.
This article claims to talk about Muthamma’s struggle against Isha. But it reads more like a hotchpotch of
Muthamma’s lifestory, lack of water and pollution in noyyal, a murder of someone back in early 2000s, etc… This
seems more as sensationalism and a way to meet the word count for an editorial.
I said in my opening statement of this long note that at the end of it, I will show you all the lies & tricks employed to
spread false information. So, here it is – please leave your remarks in the comments if you want to add anything
more to the article.
Ashok
Allegations about Isha – Part 1 – Why this series?
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.com/2017/02/allegations-about-isha-part-1-why-is.html
[Disclaimer: I am not associated with Isha Foundation. All the information below is available in public domain. Will
add more references and images soon.]
I have been tracking the allegations against Isha Foundation in the recent times to nd what the truth is. However,
there is a spike in the negative comments recently! What are all these allegations about Isha starting afresh? Some
of these are not even new! Just saw some posts today from popular magazines. This is why I started this blog, to dig
out the truths and post them. Read my rst post to know more…
These groups / persons posting negative information about Isha, they are not actually many. Just a handful of them
but with lot of followers. They seem to understand through the recent Jallikattu success that powerful information
can be spread via social media. They are trying to exploit the emotional state of TamilNadu people now. [Another
bane of Social media that I will address in a separate post ..]
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.in/2017/02/allegations-on-isha-what-is-truth.html
Ashok
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.com/2017/02/allegations-about-isha-part-2-is-isha.html
Allegations about Isha – Part 2 – Is Isha destroying forest really?
[Disclaimer: I am not associated with Isha Foundation. All the information below is available in public domain. Will
add more references and images soon.]
I have been tracking the allegations against Isha Foundation in the recent times to nd what the truth is. However,
there is a spike in the negative comments recently! What are all these allegations about Isha starting afresh? Some
of these are not even new! Just saw some posts today from popular magazines. This is why I started this blog, to dig
out the truths and post them. Read my rst post to know more…
Destroying forest
For how many days are we going to listen to these lies? Isn’t it time to nd out what the truth is?
– Who is the authority on forests? Isn’t it the TN Govt administration departments? If they, including the forest and
the land registration departments both say Isha’s lands are legally acquired patta lands, why should we continue to
believe these cheats?
For those who do not know, just because a patta land is near forest, it does not become forest area automatically!
pyRTlGA5kNg/WK7M0 jqEI/AAAAAAAAAvg/0jvUERtuTxYENbgWuvCxsMx4ZI842brjgCLcB/s400/Isha%2BReal%2BLan
d%2B1.jpeg
Elephant Corridor
W92VzoOBhwI/WMOtlkpJw4I/AAAAAAAAAyI/M2dUKIK0Yq0dRPkTQvk7sbuSkKtUklFnQCLcB/s400/For1.jpg
Ashok
Encroachment of forest land by Isha Foundation – This is automatically rubbished by the concerned authorities
itself.
Watch the video at –
http://kazhugupaarvai.blogspot.com/2017/02/allegations-about-isha-part-2-is-isha.html
As recently as July 2017, it has been categorically proven in the Chennai High Court that there is no encroachment
of forest land by Isha Foundation. But I doubt if the lies spread by vested interests are to stop here – I see too much
ignorance from common public and too much money being spent in spreading this lie online!
The very person who triggered all these ‘Google Earth’ images of Isha Foundation raising the deforestation talks has
later apologised about it. He has categorically stated that there is no deforestation by Isha.
See screenshot –
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xas40qc4lg4/WbBXC5qDDgI/AAAAAAAABCQ/xSxp09CelaUJZa_0ykDLO-
Y12MyLXD2TQCLcBGAs/s400/WhatsApp%2BImage%2B2017-09-07%2Bat%2B1.40.54%2BAM.jpeg
References:
(1) CFCIT/07/2013 – TN Forest Department document
(2) http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/inside-isha/media-matters/is-isha-encroaching-elephant-corridor/
Ashok
Response to allegations against Isha Foundation
A few days ago, some vested interest groups led petitions making baseless allegations about the 112-ft Adiyogi
statue. This is a response to these frivolous claims.
A few days ago, some vested interest groups led petitions making baseless allegations about the 112-ft Adiyogi
statue. We would like to place on record that Isha Foundation carries out all its activities within the purview of the
law.
The accusations laid down in the petitions led against Isha Foundation in the Madras High Court are frivolous and
a compilation of twisted allegations. We would like to clarify that it is a 112-feet statue of Adiyogi Shiva (the Source
of Yoga). The petitioner, incited by vested interest groups, is willfully trying to create a sensation by misrepresenting
facts.
We have obtained the approval of the necessary authorities, including the District Collector, Coimbatore, the Forest
Department and BSNL. A structural stability certi cate from a government certi ed engineer has also been
obtained for the 112-ft Adiyogi statue. A “No Objection Certi cate” from the District Collector, Coimbatore for using
wetlands for non-agricultural purposes has also been obtained. So the question of violation does not even arise.
These vested interest groups have been working actively to stop Mahashivratri celebrations. Even in 2013, a group
has brought in a petition to stay Mahashivratri celebrations at Isha. The High Court then ordered the district
authorities to le a report on the impact of Mahashivratri celebrations on ecology. Upon this directive, a team of
district o cials led by the Revenue Divisional O cer were present at the Mahashivratri venue to inspect various
parameters and its impact on the ecology. The nal report led by the district authorities reiterated the truth that
there was no violation observed at the Mahashivratri celebrations. The same was also reported in dailies like Times
of India dated 12.03.2013.
Isha has been working continuously to protect the environment through Project GreenHands which was founded
under the aegis of Isha Foundation, and has facilitated the planting of over 30 million saplings. Isha has been
involved in preserving the ecology of the mountains by planting saplings and cleaning the mountains regularly. In
fact, the lands in which Isha Foundation functions had very few trees in the beginning; the trees in and around Isha
Yoga Center have been planted by the volunteers of Isha Yoga Center. Reports from the Forest o cials have also
reiterated the same.
In Isha, Mahashivratri has been celebrated every year for the past several decades with adequate e orts
undertaken to avoid any disturbance to the ecology. This festival is also celebrated in several places across Tamil
Nadu and India without causing any damage to the environment and ecology. These vested interest groups are
trying to exploit these ancient festivals time and again to gain cheap publicity and sow discord.
Permission Letter from the District Collector for Adiyogi Statue
https://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Shiva-Statue_Collector_NOC-29.09.2016.PDF-1.jpg
Ashok
Is Isha Encroaching on Forest Land or Elephant Corridor?
Below, we list the allegations made against Isha regarding forest land and elephant corridors and o er our readers
the truth behind them.
Allegation 1: Isha Foundation has encroached on forest land and is located in the elephant corridor, with reports
that three structures are constructed illegally, without proper permission from the authorities, including forest
department.
Response: Isha Yoga Center is not constructed on forest land or elephant corridor. It is constructed on 100% Patta
land. In 2013, Tamil Nadu Forest Department o cials veri ed this, and clearly documented that the center is only
on Patta land and has not infringed onto forest land. The document reference number is CFCIT/07/2013.
By de nition, an elephant corridor is a pathway between two places where the elephants reside. As per the Tamil
Nadu Forest Department, there are no elephant corridors noti ed by it in the Coimbatore District. There is one
elephant corridor only in the adjoining district, the Nilgiris district. This can be ascertained through an RTI, as has
been shown in the document below, Ref no: WL5/35913/2013.
Allegation 2: Reports that o cials are reluctant to raze these structures, which were ordered to be demolished
some three years ago.
Response: As mentioned above, Isha Yoga Center is built on 100% Patta land, and does not encroach on any other
land. So the question of razing any structures is irrelevant.
https://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/RTI-EC-PCCF-page-001.jpg
Ashok
Is Isha Encroaching on Forest Land or Elephant Corridor?
http://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/inside-isha/media-matters/is-isha-encroaching-elephant-corridor/
Allegation 2: Reports that o cials are reluctant to raze these structures, which were ordered to be demolished
some three years ago.
Response: As mentioned above, Isha Yoga Center is built on 100% Patta land, and does not encroach on any other
land. So the question of razing any structures is irrelevant.
https://isha.sadhguru.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/DFO-LETTER-to-PCCFchennai-page-001.jpg
NT
Ashok, I have no more patience for you.
you are professionally an SEO guy, that is you are a link spammer that everyone hates.
even Google just now banned you on Youtube.
whenever you feel other people brought up points you can’t deal with, you try to ood the forum with 15-20 large
copy-paste isha articles about things everyone already knows to drown your failure.
this is classic troll behavior. the rule is don’t feed the trolls. so I will leave you to your trolling.
your posts only prove how bad isha brainwashing is and how their meditation, whatever it is short term, drives
people insane over time. sure, you can go ahead and repeat the same back like you predictably do, but it is just sad
to watch you.
Ashok
@NT case, ur assumptions are just getting wilder by every post.. running from topic to topic…
Whatever, just coz I post 15, u post 1 doesn’t make ur judgement right…
Stick to topic or else u dntve patience, then rst sort urself then advice others…pity to see u like this…
Tanmaya
October 22, 2019 at 12:10 am
@NT, thanks buddy glad you liked the article. I liked the Forbes one as well (though I had to turn my adblock o for
that site.. small price!). The detachment and merchandise in the same stall was absolutely hilarious.
@Ashok, it’s not so much the news channel that matters, it’s the source. In the article you’ve posted, it’s from
Outlook India, same channel as from my Rally for Rivers post. Though your article is purely based on the journalist’s
opinion, see bottom of the article: (Author is a veteran journalist and writer. Views expressed are personal)
Anyone can become an online journalist and conjure up their owns ideas into their own posts. The link I had posted
had credible quotations from India’s “Waterman”, Rajendra Singh. If you don’t know who that is, just go check him
out. He has won multiple awards in water sciences including a Nobel prize for water equivalent. He has revived
many rivers and has dedicated his entire life to river sciences. The dude knows a thing or two!
If Rajendra Singh says something about rivers, any rational person who know there’s some logic and experience
behind his reasoning. If he talks about cricket, I might be skeptical. Similarly, if Jaggi has his own theories about
rivers, I’m taking that with a grain of salt because one needs to know the credibility of the source.
You’re looking for truth in the wrong places Ashok. I understand your love for God and spirituality. One could be
religious and still lay out logical ideas, you should be following examples of legends such as Srinivas Ramanujan, a
deeply religious mathematical prodigy who lived his live for his work, not for money. That’s inspiration right there
and forgo the imposters who try to sell you a product.
Where there is religion, there can never be truth. Where there is truth, there is no need for religion.
Tanmaya
October 22, 2019 at 12:26 am
Cont’d:
Contribution work to charity and humanitarian e orts by an organization does not say much until you look into the
nancial details. Heck even Bill Gates contributed $4.78B last year to charities. Was he worth that much in 2018?
No, heck of a lot more!
Most people donate based on how much they have – proverb: “jitne lambe paer (legs) hon, utni chadar phalani
chahiye”
Now check out Isha’s nancials – is it worth around the same it has donated? No, heck of a lot more! How? Well,
most of the monies are cleverly distributed into charities to evade taxes so how is Isha rich? Assets. Both short term
and long term holdings of Isha foundation are worth millions of dollars (~$16M to be precise). These do not belong
to any charity, but only to Isha Foundation, whose sole owner is our lord and savior.
Another way to evade taxes is business expenses and asset capitalization. When you as a company put $1M into
your own company’s growth as expenses – whether it be marketing campaigns, travel (Jaggi’s rst class tickets),
conference room bookings, etc., that’s ALL tax deductible.
When you capitalize your assets, renovate your ashrams, build a 120-foot statute, that’s also deductible.
All these deductible amounts are magni ed if you’re especially registered as a not-for-pro t business.
When Isha foundation gets a tax-recovery check after ling yearly taxes, where does that money go? To Isha
foundation itself, aka JV. Does it go back to the people?
Surely if you donate $1M and claim tax for donation, you’ll get a fraction of it back but do all donors claim the tax-
back amount? No. Why? If you spent $10 at Isha, would you bother going through the receipts and ling that
amount? Probably not.. even if you deserve it, it’s not worth the hassle. The government bene ts from the
unclaimed amount because that’s money in their pocket. There’s a reason guru organizations are always ‘in’ with
the government. It’s a nice circle jerk (PS don’t look this up :))
Ashok
@Tanmaya Till date have been 2 Isha just once/ I DONT follow any Guru. Like you gave opinion/ur truth, i shared
mine. Udnt understand i RESPECT your opinions. You arer not ready2 see frm their point, not going DEEP, n say its
WRONG is problem.
As for your Allegations,PROVE it. Till date not one has been proven about jaggi, jst coz Nityananda, Ram Rahim did
it…doesn’t prove what u guys showed are true….
Jaggi is given open challenge many many times as well to visit and prove him wrong, plus till date not one ex Isha
Ashramite has come out and shared about Isha.
u are denying all these irrefutable claims as well and what the people who stay around Isha had to say…
It’s not about which source you look or what subject you follow..you can be a science student but if you are not
really keen, it’s of no use…
It’s not about what you read, pls use your discretion…always…
NT
“Till date have been 2 Isha just once/ I DONT follow any Guru”
absolutely, it is just because you don’t follow any guru that you had only over half the videos in your Youtube
channel that Google banned because of your repeat sweet posts, were either of Jaggu or related to his speeches. if
you actually followed him, it would have been 100%. but it was not. irrefutable proof.
why would anyone with common sense look at your posts and think that you have anything to do with Isha and
jaggu? our logic has blinded us so badly. sorry man.
“Udnt understand i RESPECT your opinions”
I had no idea. I somehow thought everytime anyone posted any thing against Jaggu you just post 15 posts to drown
that material, out of total respect for clean discourse of course. I somehow thought you get agitated everytime a
news article criticizing his holiness, here and everywhere. what was I thinking.
“You arer not ready2 see frm their point, not going DEEP, n say its WRONG is problem.”
so true. science, logic and knowledge made us fools. we are very shallow people. we are like this only. we can’t
change. so sad for us. but with all your brilliant posts, we will see light. they are so convincing.
“Till date not one has been proven about jaggi”
that’s true. how can I prove that jaggu did not solidify mercury? I was not there. how do I know he cannot sweeten
water or see through clothes. I am so stupid with all this common sense. I just haven’t dug deep, dug a deep hole in
my brain that is. then everything will make sense.
“Jaggi is given open challenge many many times as well to visit and prove him wrong”
yes, it was so easy to go to a baba’s den and prove the allegations. I don’t know why nobody thought of that. I mean
all babas that issued denounced lies against them, have held an honest debate and always just left when they were
proven wrong. so many examples of that, amiright?
Ram Chander Chhatrapati could have explained that.
“u are denying all these irrefutable claims as well”
true man.
soul orbs really do exist all around us
a man did become ball of energy
mercury did solidify in jaggu’s hand
water does get sweeter by his mind
eclipse is poisonous to food in body
there is confusion about jesus date of birth so much that it can be in 200 years range
it is irrefutable that heraclitus and aristotle could totally have met
snakes do know when they die because you never saw a dying snake
of course his wife just left her body because she took away the copper ring. so many witnesses that saw that.
I don’t know how we could have tried to refute such irrefutable claims. stupid historians, scientists, herpetologists,
what do they know? we should have discretion, by that I mean never to listen to them but only listen to his fully
realized holiness.
“you can be a science student but if you are not really keen, it’s of no use…”
I know, right? we are same-same on this. I want to say the same thing to all the quora people.
“and what the people who stay around Isha had to say…”
that is what I was saying of ram rahim too. you just need to listen to everyone in his dera. that was what all those
peaceful protesters at panchkula were saying too. do you know how popular he was? do you know how much he
was admired? how can such love be misplaced? it was true love. you just know in your heart it is true. it never
betrays you leaving a deep gaping hole of betrayal. that would be terrible to imagine. all this rape stu were
actually total lies. I mean was there irrefutable video? we can only accept irrefutable proof. even if there was, it was
probably morphed anyway.
“It’s not about what you read, pls use your discretion…always…”
yes ashok sir, from now onwards we will only read articles that celebrate the glory of his holiness…always…
bye man. you changed our hearts and minds. stay enlightened and realized.
Ashok
October 22, 2019 at 11:39 am
@NT you have not proved even a single thing. Go on with your blabber…
Ashok
@NT As for the Allegations,PROVE it. Till date not one has been proven about Jaggi, jst coz Nityananda, Ram Rahim
did it…doesn’t prove what u guys claim are true….
And i am sharing why guys are wrong..simple as that, which you guys blindly deny..
Ashok
@NT ..Vow, seriously…looks like you have Jaggi by the scru of his neck, wat r u waiting for, pls sue him..let the
truth prevail..go junior..go.
Tanmaya
@Ashok – I’m unsure what it is you want me to prove from my last posts? lol. All I talked about were Isha’s nancials
and how much money is allocated where (this is public information!). Here’s the link which is absolute proof since
it’s government regulatory data. Pay attention to the assets and revenues gures. And how they have risen yearly.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonpro ts/organizations/621794866
The other thing I talked about was Rally for Rivers. The “proof” comes from expertise of Rajendra Singh’s
statements who has revived many rivers in his lifetime successfully and has been internationally recognized as a
leader in river sciences. I’m sure his claims have some basis in research journals. Do you want me to nd the
research journals??!
Do you understand the de nition of proof?
The paradox in your demand for proofs is that you me to disprove metaphysical claims. The burden of proof for the
supernatural lies on you! Everything in the “proof-world” is un-factual until it is proven to be true. The party making
the claims must prove the claims Ashok. I can make a claim saying I can jump 100ft because there are heavy duty
springs inside by femur bones. But I cannot ask you to disprove that claim? What will you do? Dissect me? The claim
must be proven by me. How? By making the jump in front of quali ed professionals who are studying me, or
agreeing to an X-Ray scan. Mind blown you don’t understand this.
Tanmaya
October 22, 2019 at 10:36 pm
On an aside.. man I’m exhausted trying to prove basic ideas in the 21st century ‘liberal’ age. I cannot imagine what
Galileo must have went through against the church in the 16th century..
Ashok
@Tanmaya same here ..I repeat And i am sharing why guys are wrong..simple as that, which you guys blindly deny..
Tanmaya
But you haven’t posted any proofs, unlike NT and I who have. Those things you call proofs are just personal
anecdotes. Anecdotes are dime a dozen, putting blind trust in someone’s gment of imagination is as good as
assuming the numbers you’re betting on the lottery are the winners.
I repeat, Anecdotes are NOT proofs.
Ashok
@Tanmaya, nice joke..ur funnier than @NT. Go on lie…
Tanmaya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence
Tanmaya
Ashok’s thinking:
There’s abundant proof that drinking water cures cancer. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer.
After drinking water she was cured.
Let’s forgo the chemotherapy treatments for cancer patients in hospitals and give them water instead.
Ashok
October 24, 2019 at 12:10 pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
Ashok
October 24, 2019 at 12:27 pm
Tanmaya’s thinking:
There’s abundant proof that science cures cancer. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. After
reading the science behind cancer she was cured.
Let’s forgo the common sense to prevent cancer in the rst place, and focus only on treatments for cancer patients
in hospitals and give them chemotherapy instead.
Fyi:
I know o course cancer cannot be completely prevented if it’s becoz of inherited predisposition (genetics),
environmental/ toxic exposure and random chance.
But would you want to have the common sense to prevent cancer, atleast try or think chemotherapy is the only way
to ght cancer, that too after you are sick…
Ashok
October 24, 2019 at 12:38 pm
Vow @Tanmaya you just hit the nail on the head. Cool nirmukta folks and many other online, o ine, other media
have HUGE LOADS of proofs that too scienti c proofs to PROVE Jaggi is a fraud and Isha foundation is SCAM.
Cool so it’s proven beyond an iota of doubt that you are right and other side is wrong…
Hmm..so what next….???
Yes you are doing good job of spreading the word…& Then….
NoBrainNT
why don’t you tell us what great jaggu baba teaches us about cancer since he wrote a book on cancer and gives
seminars on cancer.
Ashok
Vow @NoBrainNT, this one you beat me honestly.. it’s obvious you are a Isha SPY purposely creating negative posts
about Jaggi, so as to generate more response.. you follow him more than his own shadow..pls do the honours
yourself..
I know you folks at Isha, precisely expected from a top PR machine…
Pls share more negatives about jaggi & accomplish your job of making Jaggi famous…
Ashok
@NoBrainNT as thy name suggest itself.
Hope this helps.
As I said earlier,
Cool nirmukta folks and many other online, o ine, other media have HUGE LOADS of proofs that too scienti c
proofs to PROVE Jaggi is a fraud and Isha foundation is SCAM.
So it’s proven beyond an iota of doubt that you are right and other side is wrong…
Hmm..so what next….???

& Since you guys are not having patience & tired of explaining basics in Liberal age..
Here put an end to Jaggi’s Menace:
http://citizenmatters.in/a-guide-to- ling-a-public-interest-litigation-pil-4539
Do you feel that a lack of, or misguided, government policies and decisions are hampering the greater common
good and creating unacceptable situations related to abuse and violation of basic human rights, social injustice,
corruption etc.?
Most importantly, are you waiting for someone else to come along and put things right? The good news is that you
needn’t, in many such cases.
For socially conscious citizens who would like to x the system through a court of law, the Public Interest Litigation
(PIL) is a powerful tool. Public Interest Litigation cases won or lost in the High Court or the Supreme Court of India
often make news these days. Whether a PIL case wins or loses, it certainly makes an impact on the lives of people
who are connected to the issue in one way or the other.
This FAQ will help you get on the path to reform through the use of PILs.
What is a Public Interest Litigation (PIL)?
Wikipedia de nes PIL as use of litigation, or legal action, which seeks to advance the cause of a minority or
disadvantaged groups or individuals, or which raises issues of broad public concern. It is a way of using the law
strategically to e ect social change.
In simple terms, a PIL is a petition that an individual or a non-government organisation or citizen groups, can le in
the court seeking justice in an issue that has a larger public interest. It aims at giving common people an access to
the judiciary to obtain legal redress for a greater cause.
PIL is not de ned in any statute. It is the outcome of judicial activism to take cognisance of a cause at the instance
of any person even if it does not a ect him personally, but a ects the public at large.
Who can le it?
Any Indian citizen can le a PIL, the only condition being that it should not be led with a private interest, but in
larger public interest. At times, even the Court can take cognizance of a matter if it is one of utmost public
importance, and appoint an advocate to handle the case.
How does one decide on ling a PIL?
An advocate who has been ling PILs in Chennai High Court says it would be good to give a reasonable opportunity
for the other party to respond to the issue that the individual or the group has raised, before ling the PIL.
For example, if you have taken up a matter that demands government action or policy change, then rst raise that
issue with the authorities, bring it to their knowledge and ask them how are they going to solve it. Send them a
representation in the rst place.
Give them some time – a month or two to reply. If they fail to respond or if you are unhappy with their response,
then it’s the time to le a petition.
Where can PILs be led?
PILs can be led either in the High Court or in the Supreme Court.
What is the procedure for ling a PIL?
One has to do thorough research before ling a PIL. In case of ling a PIL concerning several individuals, it is
important and the best course for the petitioner to consult all a ected interest groups.
Once you decide to le a PIL, collect all relevant information and documents to back your case. You can argue in
person or appoint an advocate to ght the case. In any case, it is advisable to consult an advocate before ling a
PIL. If you intend to argue in person, be better prepared to explain the issue and convince the court in the little time
that you are given.
Once you are ready with the PIL copy and intend to le it in the High Court, submit two copies of the petition to the
court. Also, a copy of the petition has to be served to each respondent in advance. And this proof of serving the
copy to the respondents has to be a xed in the petition.
If you are ling PIL in the Supreme Court, then ve copies of the petition are to be led before the court.
Respondent is served with the copy only when the notice is issued from the court.
What is the cost incurred to le a PIL?
A PIL itself is cheap compared to other court cases. One has to pay a court fee of Rs 50 for each respondent and
a x it with the petition. However, the expense for ghting the case depends on the advocate the petitioner
chooses to argue the case.
What is the di erence between a PIL and a Writ Petition?
Writs are led by individuals or institutions for their own bene t and not for public interest, whereas PILs are led
for a larger good.
What are the issues that cannot be led under PIL?
The Supreme Court has issued a set of PIL guidelines according to which the following matters will not be allowed
as PILs:
Landlord-tenant matters
Service matters
Matters pertaining to pension and gratuity
Complaints against Central and State government departments and Local Bodies except those relating to items 1 to
10 mentioned in the list of guidelines
Admission to medical and other educational institutions
Petitions for early hearing of cases pending in High Court or subordinate courts
Do judges normally admit the PILs?
It di ers from judge to judge. PILs are handled by the Chief Justice of the court, hence it purely depends on how the
sitting judge perceives the matter. The average admission rate may range from 30 to 60 per cent. Normally PILs are
taken into consideration if the judges are convinced of the fact that the subject is of signi cance and is in the
interest of the public.
How long does it take for the closure of the case?
That depends on the case. If the matter is of utmost importance pertaining to lives of individuals, human rights
violation etc, the court would take up the case immediately, conduct the hearing and dispose of the matter. But in
general, due to piling up of PILs in courts, the hearing and closure of the case is time consuming, often it takes
years. However, in between the hearings, the court may issue directions to the authorities to perform certain
actions as and when needed.
It’s only after the nal hearing of both parties that a judgement is given.
Are PILs often misused?
It is interesting to know that the misuse or abuse of PILs is growing to be a serious concern in India, where the
number of cases pending before the courts is already huge.
In 2010, the Supreme Court came down heavily on frivolous public interest litigation petitions for personal or
extraneous reasons, and eventually laid down certain guidelines to be followed by courts in entertaining PILs.
The ling of indiscriminate petitions “creates unnecessary strain on the judicial system and consequently leads to
inordinate delay in disposal of genuine and bona de cases,” said a Bench consisting of Justices Dalveer Bhandari
and Mukundakam Sharma.
Tracing the origin and development of PIL in various countries, Justice Bhandari, writing the judgment, said: “The
courts’ contribution in helping the poorer sections by giving a new de nition to life and liberty and in protecting
ecology, environment and forests is extremely signi cant.” However, the Bench said, “unfortunately, of late, such an
important jurisdiction, which has been carefully carved out, created and nurtured with great care and caution by
the courts, is being blatantly abused by ling some petitions with oblique motives.”
No wait, but guys are genius and have a smarter idea….you guys just want to type, type, type and want others to
keep mum…
normal NT
no ashok, I don’t want jaggu baba in jail yet. ram rahim baba has already gone to jail and no one is making funny
videos any more. kalki baba has no funny videos. nityananda baba is too easy. that leaves only jaggu baba.
you see, I am a normal average guy in 2019. without jaggu and sheep like you (I know baby, you don’t follow any
babas, I totally believe that, wink) who will I laugh at? jaggu makes average me feel like a genius. so you and jaggu
should stay to give us comedy. jaggu gets money for his comedy. poor you gets nothing. you should post more
speeches on yourtube, on wait, nevermind, at least on your blog. maybe someone will follow you, at least one.
now back to cancer that you are too embarrassed to touch. brainless NT (with a hole dug deep in brain) made a
nice post, but it did not clear. so let normal NT explain.
as per jaggu baba, cancer is caused by mind, not dna damage. you cause it by having bad feelings. you mentally
touch invisible button unintentionally. if you are blissful, then you won’t get cancer. you know why? wink, wink, he
has a course for you to buy to make you blissful aka stoned.
also permanently stoned jaggu baba says neem cures cancer, and fasting too. he gives seminars on cancer and has
a book on cancer – yogic perspective, which sells better than saying it is his perspective, even though yoga never
mentioned cancer. why? because after one lakh meditation sheep, you automatically become scientist and doctor.
just ask ram rahim baba.
now go ashok, do your home work, run. go nd 15 junk research papers that “prove” neem and yoga cure cancer
and copy-paste. I will ignore them as usual and nd the next thing to laugh at, usually from your posts, just like you
made me search on jaggu and cancer.
normal NT
October 24, 2019 at 10:05 pm
it is actually a free book. I guess no one actually would buy it.\
https://www.dailyo.in/variety/sadhguru-world-cancer-day-treatment-spirituality-versus-science-
ramdev/story/1/15512.html
Tanmaya
October 24, 2019 at 10:42 pm
@Ashok
As someone whose mother has gone through several rounds of cancer treatment and made it out alive, I’m happy
she didn’t go through the spiritual science treatment. She has been a highly religious individual, no meat, no
drinking, no smoking, healthy diet but still cancer. What about kids who get cancer? Because they didn’t do JV’s diet
before? I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with JV’s diet, I haven’t analyzed it enough to draw conclusions. I
didn’t even know that his spiel on that existed tbh.
I see your point on pre-disposition but once again, being you, the post-skimmer and non-critical thinker, you failed
to understand that my little point there on you anecdotically analyzing evidence was in a post-diagnosis state but
you twisted it around to mean avoiding it altogether? lol.
Go around the hospitals and tell people there always su ering that could have just avoided everything altogether
and not to trust in modern science but your astrology WHATSAPP messages.
Dude, how lame are you? You seriously pasted pages and pages of WHATSAPP messages as evidence?!? What’s
wrong with you man, seriously asking. Were you hit in the head? Or dropped as a baby? I’m not name-calling, I’m
genuinely asking.
And posted a reply to my anecdotal evidence article by an article on Denialism? What exactly am I denying? I
completely understand there’s more to life than science and we do not understand it all. Let people smarter than I
(and much much smarter than you) try to gure out logical sets of reasonings behind these phenomena. And in the
meantime instead of putting all my eggs in the JV basket, if I choose to live a life through which I help others and
surround myself with people I love, I believe I have lived life to the fullest. And I’m happy with that. I don’t need to
believe in magic and unicorns to do so. You may continue living with your life believing in outta-this-world magic,
but there is scienti c consensus debunking that and if YOU deny that (true Denialism), then the next time you turn
on a light bulb, you should just assume that that is Indra’s lighting bolt passing through the bulb.
Ashok
@NT @Tanmaya go on…
I will keep sharing why you guys are wrong…as for comedy you guys are returning to the favour with interest..here
as well..this week was total fun….thanks to both of you.. a whole lot of common folks are enjoying with double the
fun…
Go on type, type, type..
Ashok
Yes, still lot of questions unanswered and clearly shows something shy on Jaggi’s side..BUT this is our judgement
based on all the PROOFS we have got.
On the other hand there is COUNTER PROOFS for everything by the other side as well.
Here, I just took extra step to contact Phanindra with proofs of what the other side had.
This is what Phanindra had to say:
**—— Forwarded message ———-

From: “K.S.M.Phanindra” k********@gmail.com
Date: Mar 24, 2019 10:06 AM
Subject: Fwd: [Thought waves!] Please moderate: “What is the lasting interest in your life?”
To: <b***”***k@gmail.com>
Cc:
Hi Ashok,
Thanks for reaching out to me. You said you emailed me before and also commented on my blogs, but I do not see
any of them. This is the rst message I got from you. I read everything your wrote here and also checked out your
blog. I see that you are a spiritual seeker and you are in the path of transcending the 5 senses! Great! May you
ourish in your journey!
Your viewpoint on spirituality is exactly same as mine. I completely agree with you that even if we have doubts on
Sadhguru, we can still bene t from him tremendously. It is de nitely possible to focus on the spiritual impact of
Sadhguru and ignore the controversies. I myself encourage people to do so and I made this point in my blog posts
too. Actually, I still follow it myself too. Sadhguru is one of the Gurus I bow down to every day. There are 6 major
Gurus in my life and he is one of them – Vivekananda, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Osho, Sadhguru, Swami Chinmayananda
and Thich Nhat Hanh.
I think my farewell blog post may have confused you. You seem to have assumed that I left everything about Isha,
including the good side. I left volunteering for Isha but I still follow the practices I learnt from them. I do not actively
follow Isha and Sadhguru anymore and do not plan to take any of their courses, but I have my gratitude for
everything I learnt from them. Now a days, I am more on the Vedanta path prescribed by my rst Guru Swami
Vivekananda. I follow Vedanta society’s lectures and their approach of mixing Bhakti, Karma and Jnana Yogas
(Sadhguru himself prescribed the same combo, in his own way).
You may ask, if this is so, why did I leave Isha? Couldn’t I have continued? Yes, I tried doing it and was successful
intellectually but emotionally I couldn’t do it. It is like loving a girl and then having a break-up. You can still continue
to have a friendly relationship with her but emotionally it is a lot easier to completely let go of her in your life. You
will nd a new love and you will still remember the old love too!
Hope this clari cation helps! Thanks for your advice!
Phanindra**
So, Jaggi killed his wife – Proofs are there and beyond doubt it shows he could have murdered his wife.
On other hand, there are counter proofs clearly showing he did not kill his wife as well.
And also shared what Phanindra had to say. Jaggi could be a murderer but he has something to o er in terms of
spirituality to the world and not to forget to many other initiative he does.
So choice is yours, to take which side you folks want..
I have shared Phanindra’s twitter id & Facebook Id.
@ksmphanindra
facebook Id – phanindra.ksm
So you can check with him if the mail is true or not…
I repeat if Jaggi killed his wife, he should be punished.
On other hand Mahasamadhi, spirituality, yoga are true and they exist. This is what I am saying…
Tanmaya
And not a single “counter proof” was seen.
Ashok
And in the rst place not a single “proof” was seen as well.
normal NT
oh you poor, poor brain washed ashok.

they scrubbed your brain clean with this maha samadhi nonsense.
they would have given you dozens of maha samadhi stories, in a very warm and trusting setting, the stories which
anyone with common sense will laugh at.
and the only reason they brain washed you like this was because they could not explain in any other way, the
young death of his wife and immediate cremation to avoid post-mortem. any husband who does not bribe will go
to jail, if they claim something like that about wife’s death. so it must be top priority brainwashing point for isha. if
wife did not die in shady situation, they would have brainwashed you more with something else, like that pranic
body or something.
I don’t know how many years it will take for the bulb to light up for you, with you being rather slow and stubborn
and all. anyone with basic sense would have caught on as soon as they learned about things like ideomotor e ect,
but not you and I see there are a few more like you on youtube.
your problem is you spent 5 years believing all this. now it is very hard to give anything up because you have to
admit that you rst wasted a lot of time and second you got fooled badly. no one likes to think like that. but it
better to be a fool for 5 years than for 50 years.
Ashok
October 26, 2019 at 11:15 am
@normal NT
oh you poor, poor brainLESS unbathed ISHA SPY @normal NT

You scrubbed your brain clean with this useless data nonsense.
You would have given yourself dozens of use less stupid stories, in a very warm and trusting setting, the stories
which anyone with common sense will laugh at.
and the only reason DATA brain washed you like this was because you had no brain and can not PROVE in any
other way, that the young death of his wife is murder and as if you literally you saw that with your own eyes. Just
coz immediate cremation was done again you assume it is to avoid post-mortem.
Any husband who does not bribe will go to jail – looks you are the police who was hand in glove and took the
money personally..
If you read claims about something like that about his wife’s death. so it must be top priority brainwashing point for
ishaSPY @normal NT. if wife did not die in shady situation, you would have brainwashed yourself more with
something else, like as if you saw it literally with your own eyes or something.
I don’t know how many years it will take for you to nd your brain and then to light up for you, with you being
rather brainless, useless and stubborn and all. anyone with basic sense would have caught on as soon as they
learned about things like the complaint was led 7 months after her death, just but not you and I see there are a
many more like you on youtube, online blogs, and everywhere..
your problem is you spent since birth believing all this. now it is very hard to give anything up because you have to
admit that you rst wasted a lot of time and second you got fooled brainlessly. no one likes to think like that. but
for @normal NT it better to be a fool since birth than becoming smart going forward for you.
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1. Zakir Naik Doesn’t Understand Atheism

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keshav shet revankar

as far as am concerned am one of the living cellular polymer

Science follows a method of observation,experimentation and establishment of a theory.If tomorrow I want to

That was the crux.Sometimes, we need to just get the crux.

His Only concern is money! Money! Money! Nothing but money!

Check out your assumptions.

solidi ed mercury in room temperature

It seems to me that your reasoning has some aws…

He is not saying that science was created to produce technology.

same way by Dhayanam or Bhakti only one can experience it.

Dear Mr. Sriram,

You can google it for details.

I agree. Victor Toso put it really well.

krishna samy Nallasamy

krishna samy Nallasamy

** Both of the area is trying to attain some fundamental truth.**

What fundamental truth has been established by religion?

science is not realistic tool to know what is consciousness.

**science is not realistic tool to know what is consciousness.**

I would also request Subhajit to answer the same question.

**Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?**

**Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?**

This guy does belong in the company of Miss Cleo.

Simply, your point of view is wrong when judging him.

Science gets accused of #2, when it’s really doing #1.

After all, yoga is a science of body and mind!

Hopefully, that will help broaden our views.

**Hopefully, that will help broaden our views.**

This is what Stephen Hawking has written in this book

Let us get back to what you said in your earlier post.

**Our brain has been designed to experience the oneness**

Idiotic statement irrespective of who said it.

**I beg to di er. **

Let us see what you said in one of your posts.

But a healthy debate with you is impossible.

**Good enough though,he does’nt kill people or rip o people.**

Have you tried that course? I will pay for you.

but why you should fool people?

vellingiri is already a fertile land, with good rain.

how can you boast as if you are protecting the forest?

In the name of Yoga, you are spoiling nature around vellingiri.

keshava shet revankar

Science, as yet, is too immature to understand the universe.

Both of the area is trying to attain some fundamental truth.

science is not realistic tool to know what is consciousness.

Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?

Why should tonal arrogance replace reason in said “freethinking forums”?

Hopefully, that will help broaden our views.

Our brain has been designed to experience the oneness

I beg to di er.

Good enough though,he does’nt kill people or rip o people.