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10 and the
11 COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,
13 WASHTNGToN, D.C.
74
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23 Washington, D.C.
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25
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2 Appeanances:
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t4
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11 2550 t4 STREET, NW
t2 WASHTNGToN, DC 2@037
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t4 and Eunasian Affains and has held this position since eanlien this yean.
15 Ambassadon Reeken joined the Fonelgn Service in 1992 and has senved
16 with distinction in vanious positions thnough his long caneen in public
77 senvice.
18 Ambassadon Reeken, we ane gnateful youn being hene and we thank
19 you for youn senvice. We look forwand to youn testimony today,
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7
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16 coopenating with the inquiny and with Congness and have tnied to limit
L7 what people can say.
18 This is unacceptable. Thankfully, consummate public senvants,
19 like you, have demonstnated nemankable counage in coming forward to
20 testify and tell the tnuth.
2L Befone I tunn to committee counsel to begin the intenview, I
22 invite the ranking memben, in his absence, a minority member of the
23 Foneign Affains on Ovensight Committee, to make any opening nemanks.
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8
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5 statement.
6 MR. MEADOWS: A11 night. And so as a joint deposition, one of
7 the concerns I have, as you know, you and I had a veny respectful
8 convensation as it nelates to the nu1es, and access to the deposition
9 transcnipts is a key component. It is my undenstanding that you and
10 youn staff have access to the deposition tnanscnipts cunnently. And
11. unden the nules, maybe I will quote it hene, unden panagraph 9 in the
t2 nules it says, the chain and the nanking minonity memben shall be
74 time.
15 And so, Mn. Chainman --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Sorny.
24 those tnanscnipts.
25 And so I would just bring to the chainman's attention the nules,
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9
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1 and, respectfully, and I mean that nespectfully, let's look and see
2 if we can have an accommodation asit nelates to the deposition.
3 I just find it very difficult to have sat in over 60 houns of
4 tnanscnibed intenviews and then have it be veny difficult fon me to
5 go back and compane notes on refresh my memory when I've actually been
6 in the depositions.
7 I'm not saying wide access to those outside of the thnee
15 transcnipts in hand copy, but they ane not allowed to take the hand
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10
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6 actually not put in place fon this type of heaning as much as it was
7 what I call the Issa nu1e. You wene very familian with that during
8 the Benghazi hearings. It was put in place under a Republican
9 majonity, pnimanily because of the classified natune of those and the
10 desire of Congnessman Issa to be pant of that.
11 I'm not asking fon a pninted copy. I've not seen a pninted copy
L2 of any tnanscnipt. But what I am asking is, is that we'ne allowed with
13 oun staff to go in and neview those depositions as we pnepane fon funther
74 witnesses. I think that would centainly be in keeping with the rules.
15 I think it is in spinit with the nules.
16 My understanding is night now is that we can set up a time and
17 have youn staff come in and supenvise that. That's not laid out in
20 paragnaph 10. I'm just saying nespectfully, Iet's find a way to make
2L an accommodation. And I'm not asking you to nule night now. Centainly
22 we can have a funthen discussion off-Iine.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: And let's have that funthen discussion off-line
24 so we don't have to use up the witness' time.
25 MR. MEADOWS: I'11 yield back.
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11
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3 us to the same nisk of what happened with the finst tnanscnipt that
4 was made available.
8 MR. MEADOWS: Certainly the chainman and this nanking memben are
9 both committed to keeping the nules. And so I guess in that spirit
10 is why I'm making the nespectful appeal.
11 THE CHAIRIVIAN: I thaNk yOu.
L2 I will now tunn it oven to Mn. Goldman to begin the deposition.
13 MR. GOLDMAN: Thank you, Mn. Chainman.
17 24th.
18 As you know, Ambassadon Reeken, the committees had to adjust oun
19 schedule due to the memonial events the past two days in honon of oun
23 Ambassadon Reeken, if you can now please state youn fuII name and
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72
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1 R-e-e-k-e-n.
2 MR. GOLDMAN: And if you just
to pul1 the micnophone in a
want
3 way that makes you comfontable that you just speak and it goes into
12 duning thein altotted time as has been the case in eveny deposition
16 in today.
t7 Let me do some bnief intnoductions. To my night Nicholas
18 Mitche1l. He is the senion investigative counsel fon the Intelligence
19 Committee. Mn. Mitchell and I will be conducting most of the intenview
20 fon the majority.
2L And I'11 now let my countenpants fnom the minonity staff intnoduce
22 themselves ?
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13
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3 I
4 MR. GOLDMAN: This deposition will be conducted entinely at the
5 unclassified level. Howeven, the deposition is being conducted in
6 HPSCI secure spaces and in the presence of staff with appnopniate
7 secunity cLeanances. We also undenstand that youn attonney has her
8 secunity cleanance as well.
9 It is the committee's expectation that neithen questions asked
10 of you non answens pnovided by you will nequine discussion of any
11 infonmation that is cunnently on at any point could be pnopenly
L2 classified unden Executive 0nden 13526. You are neminded that E0 13526
25 staff memben can discuss the substance of the testimony that you provide
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14
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t today. You and youn attonney will have an oppontunity to neview the
18 Reeker.
22 completed befone you begin your answen and we will tny to wait until
23 you finish your nesponse befone asking you the next question. The
24 stenognapher cannot necord nonvenbal answens, such as shaking youn
25 head, so it is impontant that you answer each question with an audible
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15
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1 venbal answer.
2 We ask that you give complete neplies to questions based on youn
3 best necollection. If a question is unclean on you ane uncentain in
4 your nesponse, please let us know. And if do not know the answen to
19 Do you swean that youn testimony here today will be the whole tnuth
22 MR. GOLDMAN: Let the recond neflect that the witness has been
23 sworn.
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15
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1 attonney has any mattens to discuss befone we pnoceed, now is the time.
2 AMBASSADOR I have no opening
REEKER: statement.
4 minutes.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
9 backgnound.
11 can you descnibe fon us, genenally speaking, some of youn foneign posts
L2 and youn mone necent positions?
13 A Sure. I joined tn L992 after finishing gnaduate school.
74 Actually went thnough the Foneign Senvice pnocess and joined with the
15 United States Infonmation Agency, which at that time was sepanate.
15 My first assignment was to Budapest, Hungany, whene I was the
23 Secnetary of State Albnight and then thnough the tnansition fon 3 mone
24 yeans unden Secnetany of State Powell.
25 From thene, I went back ovenseas, netunning to Budapest as the
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t7
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L7 fron 2@74 to 2@17 , at which time I moved. I had been asked to become
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18
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10 well. Back hene in Washington we have about 3OO employees unden the
L2 secnetanies, a principal deputy who came on in August and then six mone
L4 ovenseas, the Buneau has about LLT5OO personnel fon which I'm bnoadly
15 nesponsible.
16 a for that backgnound. We ane going to focus
Thank you
22 a Understood.
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19
UNCLASSIFIED
5 HaIe, know, as well as the Office of the Legal Advison and my pnincipal
6 deputy know. I think I sent an email the night that I neceived the
7 nequest to testify. One of my deputies had alneady testified, Geonge
8 Kent. And I centainly didn't keep it a secnet that I'd been asked
9 to -- nequested to give a deposition as the email stated. And
10 oniginally the nequest was fon Wednesday.
16 A No, sin.
t7 a Ane you aware that the committees have subpoenaed the
18 Depantment fon documents nelated to this investigation?
19 A I do undenstand that fnom the pness reponting, y€s.
20 a 0n1y fnom the press neponting?
2L A Yeah, to the best -- wel1, I know we were -- when this began,
22 I was tnaveling in Italy on official tnavel. And I necall that thene
23 was -- we needed to at least neview files fon documents nelevant to
24 this, and I undenstood that my emails wene neviewed automatically.
25 a Wene you asked to collect any documents related to the
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20
UNCLASS1TIED
7 A It's my emails.
8 a Youn emails.
9 A Not all of them obviously, because I get upwands of 3OO or
10 4AO a day. But it's emails that I thought may be nelevant to help me
19 a ane you not, that the Depantment has not pnovided the
20 committees with any documents punsuant to the subpoena. Is that night?
2t A That is my undenstanding, Yes.
22 a Have you had any convensations with anyone at the State
23 Depantment about whether the Department should
24 A No, sin.
25 A pnoduce any documents?
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2L
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t A No, sin.
2 a Okay. But you've neviewed the nelevant emails pnion to
3 testifying here today?
4 A WelI, I've tried to neview I have a fainly
to the best
5 fulsome job. And so in between, in prepaning what was initially a shont
6 peniod and then with a couple of extra days, I did tny to go thnough
7 emails just to tny to be able to necall and tnack the genenal timeline
8 of things that I believe you may be intenested in.
9 a Okay. And that neview, I assume, has helped you pnepare fon
10 youn intenview today.
LT A I think so, yes.
L2 a Youn testimony today.
13 A I may be able to nefen to some of them.
t4 a So just so you'ne awane, because we don't have those
15 documents and don't have any documents, we may be asking a lot of
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22
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16 diplomacy, oun State, DOD, EUCOM, EUR, the Eunopean Buneau wonk. So
2L I didn't tell you this befone. And then he suggested I was going to
22 get another phone call because a new idea had come up. And I received
23 that call fnom the Counselon of the State Depantment, U1rich Bnechbuhl,
24 who talked to me fon a Iittle while and said they wene intenested in
25 having me come back to take oven fon Wess.
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23
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3 A I'm sorny.
4 a You can pull it even closen to you just so you're comfontable.
5 It's a lange noom.
6 A Lapel mikes on something. That's betten. Is that all
7 night ? Sonny.
8 So he suggested that I come back to Washington. In fact, I was
L4 was thein desine, that my new assignment would be to come back and do
15 that.
16 And so then I netunned to Stuttgant on the 9th of Febnuany. The
t7 Secnetany had suggested that I join him, along with Wess, who was of
19 A I do not know.
20 a When you wene asked to take the job, what did you know about
2t Uknaine ?
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25
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L of the Soviet Union. I think that was when the Pnesident at that time
2 made the finst visit to independent Uknaine by a U.S. President. I
3 just wonked on the pness suppont.
4 And then I accompanied Secnetary Albnight in my capacity as
1 Yovanovitch like?
2 A I've know Masha fon, I think -- she's been in the Foneign
3 Senvice longen than I, but, you know, pnobably 20 yeans. We both have
4 senved in the bnoad -- bnoadly same negion. When I was nominated and
5 came fon my confinmation heaning, we wene on the same pane1. She was
10 officen ?
16 Secnetany fon the Balkans and in Centnal Eunope. She was anothen one
L7 of the DAS's. I think she had the Nondic and Baltic pontfolio at that
18 time. And then she became the Pnincipal Deputy Assistant Secnetany
L9 and Acting fon a peniod towand the end of my time in the Buneau.
20 a Had you even heand any complaints within the State Depantment
25 a Soon aften youn official stant date in this nole as the Acting
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27
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t2 3-yean toun and we needed to find a new candidate, the chief of mission
13 pnocess, the usual Foneign Senvice process, which had been conducted
24 a Wene you awane that she had been asked to stay a little longen
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28
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1 A I was awane that that had been considened, because when the
2 candidate, the penson that was -- had been selected and was working
3 towands, you know, submitting the necessany papens fon nomination was
7 to stay.
8 We go thnough this a lot with a numben of oun ambassadors in posts.
9 Some have onwand assignments, some of them ane netining, some of them
10 have pensonal neasons. Othens, when thene's a gap because of, you
L2 carny on. We have a numben of posts night now, fon instance, that ane
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29
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3 tolenable.
4 But Wess was quite eagen and so encounaged me to considen the
5 Uknaine job. And ultimately I was -- f was the candidate and I had
7 weekend, I got wond that the White House had appnoved moving fonwand
8 with potential nomination, which means they send you hundreds of pages
11 And then as I was doing -- stanting to wonk on those fonms, and in fact
L2 when Wess Mitchell called me, I got a message, You know, Assistant
13 Secnetany Mitchell wants to call you. I said, oh, he's calling to say,
t4 whene do you stand on those fonms? And they weren't done, of counse.
15 And that's when he said, you know, we have this othen -- we would like
16 you to do this instead. So --
t7 a You said that Wess Mitchell's nesignation was somewhat
18 sudden on sunprising. Why did you fname it that way?
20 known him even pnion to his time as Assistant Secnetary. And we had
2L a good nappont. I made sune that he and the commanden wene well knitted
22 up in of the task at hand, that is the integnation of State and
tenms
24 he's got young childnen and that maybe he was coming towand the end.
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30
UNCLASS I FIED
2 decision.
3 a But it wasn't from -- as fan as you knew, thene was no policy
4 on othen reason that he --
5 A Not that I'm awane of. He always told me he was -- you know,
5 again, little kids and mone time with the family.
7 a Ane you -- what happened nelated to Ambassador Yovanovitch
8 after you assumed duty, the duties of this job on Manch 18th?
9 A So that week, of counse, thene came this sont of avalanche
11 in Ukraine who was alleging things about the Ambassador. Uknaine was
15 expenience I had with Uknaine. I had visited thene once with Genenal
16 Scaparrotti fon a ship visit, the USS Mount Whitney, that paid a port
L7 call in Odessa, pnobably in the summen, Iate summen of 2018.
18 And then in Febnuany when I already had -- knew that I had been
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31
UNCLASS I F]ED
1 the summer of 2@L9, I was quite enthused about that. In fact the
2 commander at EUCOM was also quite enthused about that oppontunity.
3 So then this stonm of, as I litenally annived in the finst days,
4 all of these stonies wene comlng out, lots of pness inquinies to the
5 Eunopean Buneau pness office, to the Department as a whole, allegations
6 of al1 kinds of what seemed to me very outlandish and unnealistic
7 stonies were coming out about this.
8 And it, you know, became kind of one of these media fnenzies, lots
9 of efforts to figune out whene is this coming fnom, what is this about,
76 is, of counse, nesponsible fon all of the -- the Under Secnetany fon
18 And UInich did say: Any idea whene this is coming from, what this
19 ls about? We stanted sont of tnying to look into that, talking to the
20 post, of counse to Masha. My deputy fon Eastenn Eunope, which includes
21 Uknaine, Geonge Kent, who is a neal expert on the whole negion actually,
22 as well as the Caucasus that he covens, and he had been the Deputy Chief
23 of Mission unden Masha Yovanovitch until a yean pnion when he came back
UNCLASS I EIED
32
UNCLASS I EIED
3 pantisan, to which Ulrich said they had neven found anything to suggest
4 any foundation to those allegations.
5 And he had thought aften that that perhaps that had sort of ended,
6 but cleanly this was coming back again. And I believe some of the pness
8 And in fact, it was -- the letter was neLeased with sont of some not
9 so gneat blacking out of the name, but it was cleanly that letten fnom
10 2078.
t4 A The general -- not even genenal -- the view was thene was
15 neven any pnoof, was one wond that was used, thene was no documentation
25 some tweet comes out and then is netweeted with no basis at all and
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33
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2 And some of them were neally not just highly, highly inaccunate
3 and inflammatony, but thneatening also to Ambassadon Yovanovitch. And
4 this affects not only, you know, oun policy, oun standing, the wonk
5 of the embassy, which was, you know, extnemely busy.
6 It's a lange mission with a lot of very handwonking people wonking
7 on pnognams to fight connuption, to pnomote economic nefonms, to work
8 on enengy divensification, to pnomote antitnust, and tny to help
9 Uknaine emenge fnom the oliganchical system that has kept them fan fnom
72 Russia.
13 A11 that wonk is vitally impontant. That was key to oun policy
74 and that was being centainly distnacted fnom. In fact, because the
15 Pnosecuton had put out these nasty allegations, these untrue
16 allegations about the Ambassadon, and he was known to be close to
L7 Pnesident Ponoshenko, on my thind day -- in fact, I guess it would be
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34
UNCLASS I EIED
1 a Just you?
2 A We1I, I'm sune I would have had staff with me fnom the
3 Uknaine
5 A Yes.
6 a -- Depantment official?
7 A YeS.
8 a You mentioned something about thene being follow-on pness
9 related to these allegations. Do you know who was amplifying these
10 allegationi and accusations in the media anound this time?
LL A I mean, you can look at all those media neponts and they quote
L2 a numben of people. Thene was -- Mr. Giuliani, of counse, was one of
13 the main voices of this and he, himself, was on ain. Thene was Mn.
14 diGenova, I necall, who was also thene and a stneam of pness neponts
15 which then, you know, they sont of feed on each othen. And that neally
16 was lasting that whole week, and thnough the next week we continued
L7 to be bombanded with this. And I was pushing fon nesponses, what we
18 wene going to say about this in terms of the pushing back, defending
19 oun Ambassadon and our mission there.
20 a Who did you have those convensations with?
2L THE CHAIRMAN: Could I befone we - - before you answen that. What
22 was the Uknainian nesponse when you did that demarche with the Ukrainian
23 countenparts to naise these concenns?
24 A of Mission was montified.
The Deputy Chief And she was a
25 young diplomat who did nepont that immediately back. And I believe
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35
UNCLASS I FIED
15 on the West Coast or someplace and that's why his deputy came to neceive
16 the demanche and our stenn concerns about this. And then I had a
23 as well.
24 AFIBASSADOR REEKER: I think we heand that through oun embassy in
25 Kyiv.
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35
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1 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
7 Jn., netweeted on tweeted something to that - - the same thing with some,
8 in my view, inconnect statements about Ambassadon Yovanovitch.
9 a Wene you awane of whethen this received some pnominent
10 attention on FOX News anound this time?
t4 knows all the playens, all the -- knows the language, the political
15 dynamics.
1.6 So they wene with the embassy and his office compiling all of these
77 neponts and fonwarding me volumes, of which I didn't have a chance to
18 nead everything, but we were tnying to keep tnack of the stories and
19 how it was genenating and whene was this coming from, which was the
20 question that the Counselon was asking.
21 And I was fonwanding not all, I thought
but summanies, ones that
22 captured well the context, you know, what was happening, who it was
23 coming fnom, and how it was demonstnably wnong. I was forwanding those
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37
UNCLASS I FIED
5 statements stants with oun pness office in conjunction with the subject
6 matten expents drafting potential guidance on statements, with the
7 embassy obviously contnibuting, and I think Ambassadon Yovanovitch
8 herself who had a clean intenest in getting some solid push back on
9 this.
10 And that goes thnough a cleanance pnocess in the Depantment and
L2 myself, and then it would move upstains to what we call the seventh
13 floon fon the "P, " known as the Under Secnetany fon Po1itical Affains,
L4 David HaIe, and then "Cr " Ulnich Bnechbuhl, the Counselon, who wene
15 kind of in the main my senion go-to people on this.
UNCLASS ] F]ED
38
UNCLASS I FIED
1 lL2:O3 p.m. l
2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
16 And we did get a nesponse to the queny that thene wene numons at
77 that time circulating anound the dismissal of the Ambassadon to
18 Uknaine, and citing articles in The Hill publication.
19 And so we had a statement -- a nesponse. lust to be technical,
20 it's a nesponse to the pness queny, vensus a fonmal statement that is
2L neleased by the Depantment. And they sent me a dnaft, which was cleared
22 by Deputy Assistant Secretany, DAS Kent, by D staff, that's the Deputy
23 Secnetary staff, the Unden Secnetany of State, and by the
of State; P
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39
UNCLASS ] FIED
t7 tnanspined oven the last couple of days, what The Hill had published,
UNCLASS IE]ED
40
UNCLASSI FIED
15 ane true. Such attacks redouble oun nesoLve to help Uknaine win the
77 stnuggle against conruption. "
UNCLASS I FIED
41.
UNCLASS I FIED
4 A Yeah.
5 a -- at that office multiple times, night?
6 A To be clean and fain, the pness world, the wonld of the media,
7 has changed dnamatically since the days when I conducted daily
8 bniefings and dealt with the pness as the focus of my job. We didn't
9 have Twitten. Thene was a news cycIe.
L7 Ambassador and thanks the Amenican diplomat and hen team for thein
18 contnibution to building stnategic pantnenships between oun states.
19 So that was an impontant piece.
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UNCLASS I FIED
7 And this included some of the nastiest of the tweets that included
2 some implied violence, nefenences to "lynching" against the
3 Ambassador, which we turned oven, on wene tunned over, obviously, to
4 the secunity people as weII. Some details, the pnognam about -- by
11 A Exactly, yes.
L2 a And so I had asked you eanlien about convensations about
L4 executives on fnom the seventh floon and you indicated you did have
15 those convensations.
16 Can you descnibe a litt1e bit mone genenally the natune of those
77 convensations ?
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43
UNCLASS T FIED
2 And then Under Secnetany Hale said he "defenred to coms people, "
3 on the communications folks, "but I believe Masha" -- that is,
4 Ambassadon Yovanovitch -- "ShouLd deny on the necond saying anything
5 disnespectful and neaffirm hen loyalty as Ambassador and Foreign
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44
UNCLASS I FIED
L nelated to Uknaine?
2 A I would say I had a vague awaneness thnough the pness. I
3 mean, mind you, I I think I was awane
had been back now 5 days, and
r, Mn. Giuliani?
12 A No, I got a betten idea of it laten on with George, my Uknaine
13 expent, the Deputy Assistant Secretary fon Ukraine and Eastenn Eunope,
74 who laten had sont of, with his team, gone thnough and tnied to captune
15 what he then descnibed as foun diffenent narratives that were being
16 pushed in all of this.
17 So by Apnil the 1st, by the end of the second week, essentially,
18 aften 2 weeks of this, Geonge had kind of identified foun stnands, as
25 The thind was -- there was -- how he wnote it hene was, this "Biden
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45
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6 because one NGO, called AnTAC, that had neceived gnants thnough U.S.
7 assistance pnognams had also neceived a gnant fnom the Open Society
8 Institute.
9 a And based on what Mr. Kent explained to you, either in email
10 on othenwise, and any othen infonmation that you gathened about these
11 foun diffenent stnands, wene you awane of any validity to any of these
t2 foun stnands of accusations on allegations?
13 A I was not.
t4 a Was Mn. Kent, to youn knowledge?
15 A No. And, again, he was positioned to be able to sont of
16 pnovide context because he had served at the embassy in Uknaine and
t7 was familian with these nannatives and some of these things that are
18 happening.
UNCLASS I F]ED
46
UNCLASS I F]ED
2 question of a statement.
3 a Yes. We'Il pick that uP next time.
4 MR. GOLDMAN: GNCAI.
5 Mn. Caston.
5 BY MR. CASTOR:
14 that finst week of at1 of this to say, you know, can we put out -- and
15 Masha was intenested in some kind of statement, not just the nesponse
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47
UNCLASS I F]ED
1 And then that actually -- that was not sent to me. That was sent
2 to the Eunopean Buneau pness office, which then fonwanded it to me,
6 statement. "
7 a Do you have any additional infonmation about why that
8 decision was made?
9 A I don't. There would be no statement. We would continue
10 to use the pness guidance that we had, that had been cleared.
11 a Okay. Did you even come to leann why thene was a neluctance
25 Counselon and Unden Secnetary Hale in tenms of what could be the pness
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4 had an extremely strong showing and things, I think, kind of died down
5 a bit maybe as thene was mone of a focus on Zelensky and the 3 weeks
6 until the nunoff.
7 We had, of counse, in Washington the NATO ministenial. I know
10 to hum below. And as you can imagine, the embassy was extnemely busy
L4 back to coven this. I left on the 8th of Apnil and was in -- back in
77 and thene were fanewells that week fon Genenal Scapannotti, the
18 commanden, who was leaving, both in Benlin, honored by the Genmans.
23 spoke with Masha Yovanovitch in Kyiv. The focus of that phone call
25 succeeding me as hen next assignment, you know, given that hen toun
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4 going to punsue it. And, in fact the commandens had all said, oh, they
5 would love to have Masha thene again. Hen neputation was such that
6 Eunopean Command commandens were eagen to have hen take oven that
9 again, and I got some ungent ca}ls fnom Counselon Bnechbuhl. I spoke
10 to him in a phone call on the 24th of Apnil, as well as with the Unden
LT Secnetany and the head of human nesounces, that things had gotten, in
t2 thein wonds, suddenly much wonse.
13 Thene was a lot of -- without anything explicit,
unhappiness
15 the White House that Ambassadon Yovanovitch was still thene, and the
16 belief that she needed to come back, the belief in the State Depantment
77 that she needed to come back to Washington fon consultations. And the
23 it.
24 Hene fnom thetexting, it's okay to share that with
WhatsApp
25 General Scapannotti and Wo1tens, she told me, and let me know -- I asked
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1 hen to let me know when you feel comfontable with me speaking to Caro1,
2 the head of human nesources , and with the Political Militany Bureau
6 had been told she needed to come into the embassy to take an important
7 call fnom the Dinector Genenal and she was asking me if she knew what
8 was going on. And I did tell her in a call with Ulnich he said things
9 had suddenty, quote, "changed for the wonser" unquote, but he couldn't
10 share anything on an open line.
11 Then I had a call from Canol -- that would be Ambassador
12 Perez -- who also offered no details, but was about to caII you, Masha,
13 next.
L4 And I said to Masha in text message: "So I'm langely in the dank,
15 but it doesn't sound good. Let me know if you want to taIk."
16 at that time hosting a large neception and she was
And she was
t7 going into the embassy to talk to Carol. And I believe Canol told hen
18 that she really should come back to Washington. Canol didn't have a
L9 pictune of this, but just that she needed to -- she felt Masha should
20 come back to Washington.
2L So that's when she came back to Washington. That would not be
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L2 in the Foneign Senvice, a transition day fon these things. You have
13 youn Independence Day neception as a sortof fanewelI, and then you
L4 leave. I think she was looking at JuIy 5th on 6th, possibly 8th,
15 something in that nange.
16 And, weII, why don't I let you, if you have more questions.
t7 a So you said that the tenm "necal-I" wasn't accunate. What
2L nead the pness neponts of hen deposition to you whene the Deputy
22 Secnetany is quoted as telling hen: "You've done nothing wnong. " And
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7 the question then was, what comes next? And the Deputy Secnetany of
2 State, to my necollection, gave hen the option to decide what date she
3 wanted to netunn, undenstanding -- and I think we all
4 undenstood -- that with the media stonm and the focus on this, that
5 going back to Kyiv and staying thnough JuIy could be, you know,
6 difficult.
7 Masha was staying on in Washington fon a preplanned event. In
8 fact, she had alneady asked fon, before she came back at the behest
9 of the Dinecton Genenal so quickly on the 26th, she had asked fon
10 permission to come back to Washington, be away fnom post, to neceive
11 an awand, to be honored at the National Defense University and inducted
12 into thein haII of fame, an event we were looking fonwand to, and, again,
13 something which speaks to the esteem within which she is neganded both
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1 this. No one wants to see someone go thnough this and such, you know,
9 So when she made the decision to make her last day the 20th of
10 May, I fu1ly supponted that. And so I think the best tenm would be
11 to say that she ended hen assignment on the 20th of May, which was
2L covenage.
23 chief of mission, who had moved into that spot fnom anothen position
24 when Geonge Kent had left the yean befone to come be Deputy Assistant
25 Secnetany unden Wess Mitche]I. That deputy was assigned to move in
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4 place. She should stay. You know, we don't need -- it tunned out we
16 absolutely unfain to thnow hen into this situation which was in focus.
17 So we wene tnying to find someone who could act as Change d'Affaines.
18 We have a nosten of people known as WAE, while actually employed, who
19 ane usually netired senion Foneign Senvice officens, netined
20 ambassadors. Thene wene a numben thene. And we, as pant of this
21 process, sont of who could be, we got out the list of fonmen ambassadons
22 to Uknaine.
23 And the one guy on thene who was potentially available who was
24 not involved in business on aligned with, you know, one political side
25 on another in Uknaine was Ambassadon Bill Taylon, who was at that time
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9 that they would have his back on help him with these extennal
10 envinonmental factons?
11 A He wanted to be veny clean -- on he was very clear that he
13 that our support fon Ukraine and its Westenn onientation and its desine
74 to nefonm and oun support fon them against the Russian malign and
18 felt if the policy was not going to remain, then he wasn't the guy.
19 But as he was waiting fon the buneaucnacy, the buneaucnatic processes
20 to catch up to see if this would be possible, he was also waiting fon
2t this.
22 And he neally wanted to see the Secnetany. in touch with
He was
23 Ulnich Bnechbuhl. I met him fon the finst time on the 2nd of May, just
24 to make sune that's connect. Too many notes.
25 Yeah, the 2nd May, aften I'd come back and all of this had happened
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1 with Masha, I met Bill Taylon late that week, tnaveled again on the
2 5th of May, I depanted with the Secnetary. Got back in time fon Masha's
3 cenemony on the 9th of May. But BiIl had made clean he neally wanted
4 to meet with the Secnetany here, since, as Ambassadon -- as Change
5 d'Affaires, obviously, he is neponting thnough -- to the Secnetany.
6 And we did have that meeting on the 28th of May, and he left that
7 meeting, I believe "confident" would be the night wond, and
L4 to be monitoned closely?
15 A Yeah, we -- I mean, I think, obviously, Uknaine is impontant.
16 You know, it is one of the 50 accounts that I have. But I think, I
17 mean, f guess -- what do you mean by monitoned? The situation in
18 Uknaine ?
24 always been fon the mission and its pensonnel who wene, I think it is
25 fain to say, shaken by all of this, the Ambassador's abnupt eanly
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1 depantune. And Bill was -- and fnom the beginning, fnom the time he
7 inaugurated on the 20th of May. And at that point, I think you're all
8 awane, centainly it's been in the open media based on testimony hene,
9 that for the inaugunation the White House had delegated Secnetary
22 And it was aften that inaugunation when that team came back and
23 they met with the Pnesident, I believe, on the 23rd of May, and
24 Ambassadon Volken pnovided me a neadout of that which kind of laid out
25 the path fonward in tenms of implementing oun strategy and policy with
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L Uknaine.
5 I went to what is now Nonth Macedonia, and we have been fniends and
6 colleagues.
7 And he had been useful in, as I came back to Washington, dealing
8 with, you know, 50 countnies and 72,000 staff, I talked to him a couple
9 of times about Uknaine and whene he saw the dinection, you know, how
10 he was lmplementing the stnategy, the nole he was playing both in tenms
11 of the negotiations part, to tny to help bring an end to the wan, as
72 well as ideas in tenms of things like antitnust, moving fonwand on
27 of 2QL8.
23 all of these pieces, the mission was falling into a good place with
24 Bill at the helm, the new DCM getting up to speed veny quickly. So
25 on the gnound, the embassy and U.S. Mission Uknaine was well taken care
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L of, and the engagement and policy management was being handled by, I
2 think they have been nefenned to as the Thnee Amigos. But Ambassadons
3 Sondland and Volken -- and Ambassadon Sond1and, whom I knew, of counse,
4 had been veny c1ean, I know he had the dinect access to the Pnesident.
5 And I know that the Secnetany had gneat faith in Ambassadon Volken and
18 knowledge ?
24 neally wanted to see Ukraine succeed and to see our policy and stnategy
25 succeed.
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2 You know, Wess Mitchell had helped put in place a set of policies in
8 Masha, of counse, fnom, you know, his long -- his caneen at the State
9 Depantment and since then. And he was, you know, veny dedicated to
10 this. And aften the bniefing with the Pnesident that they had, I
11 was pull this out I was, I believe, tnaveling at that time.
t2 Once again, as I've mentioned, my mandate is to spend about
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L Zelensky to the Oval Office. Oun goal had been to have that happen
4 the Thnee Amigos, will wonk with the Uknainian Govennment and contacts
5 to push fon neform and flag the Pnesident's concenn about connuption,
6 poon investment climate, oliganchic contnol oven the economy, and
L4 offices to help Uknaine find solutions to thein energy and gas needs,
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8 involved. I know oun pness Iine, our nesponse fnom the Department when
9 I got thene, so what do we say about Giuliani, was that, you know, he
10 is not a govennment employee, we nefen you to Mr. Giuliani's office
11 fon comment on him.
L2 a Did you even come to leann that Volken was having
13 communications with Giuliani?
L4 A Kunt mentioned at some point that he was going to, I think,
15 telephone, on maybe meet with Giuliani. I think his goal veny much
16 was to -- you had this harsh
cnitic of Uknaine, and his goal was to
L7 help explain oun stnategy, oun pnocess, and the fact that Zelensky
18 nepnesented a whole new chapter in Uknaine and new oppontunities to
20 I of that convensation. I
wasn't a pant had neven met
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T2 with the decision whethen to go. Basically, whethen the politics back
19 kinds of implications.
20 That was what, I think, BiIl was wornied about, and he said, again
21 I quote: "The Giuliani Biden issue will like1y persist fon the next
22 yean. I'm not sune Sr " the Secnetany, "can give me neassunance on this
23 issue. "
24 And then I was at my I said: 0h, I'11 tny to
cousin's wedding.
25 offer mone nesponse laten. And at one point then Bill said: While
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1 you think about this, let me make anothen suggestion. You could send
3 And I just said: WeIl, Kunt has said no befone. He didn't want
4 to be Change on Ambassadon. And noted that he had met with the
5 Pnesident, along with the nest of the delegation, and come away fainly
6 optimistic. I just descnibed to you is about that.
What
8 And I said: Kunt will be joining us fon the meeting with the
9 Secnetany on Tuesday.
10 And BiIl said: Perfect.
11 And then thene was anothen little snag whene thene was some
t2 confusion that Bill got the impnession that Kunt neally did want to
13 take the job. We clanified that.
L4 Kunt said, hor he did not want to be Ambassadon, he wanted to stay
15 as Special Repnesentative. And Bill made veny clean at that time that
16 the Secretany needed to hean Kunt's descniption of the debnief with
17 the Pnesident on netunn fnom the inauguration.
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L lL:@@ p.m. l
2 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Based on that he said, I can't go, he was
3 hesitant about going. Then we had the meeting with the Secnetany, and
4 Bill came away confident then that he would do it and at the same time,
5 right about the same time on the 30th of May, I neponted to Bill -- I
6 was on the way to Benlin this time -- that the Legal Advisor's Office
7 had found a way fon you to go out as the Change d'Affaines with Chnistina
8 as youn Deputy Chief of Mission. And Bill said -- I checked back in
9 with him while I was on that tnip, and I just said, Checking in, is
10 evenything in onden fon youn adventune, I called it. Bill Taylor said,
11 A11 on tnack, thank you.
L2 And in fact I was on the way to Bnussels that night, the 4th of
13 June, and I noted to Bi1l, I expected to meet Pnesident Zelensky at
t4 a dinnen that Ambassadon Sondland was hosting, and so that was the first
24 fonm that you may have been copied on an email which you may have nead,
25 on you may not have because you extnaondinarily have a vast pontfolio;
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4 Did you have any firsthand infonmation about the delay in funds
5 and the PCC pnocess? It stanted on luly 18th, and ended anound
6 September 11th.
72 assistance. This was in JuIy. And eveny day, thene was sort of an
13 update, and thene was this hold on the militany assistance fon Uknaine,
t4 and thene was sont of a puzzlement as to, you know, whene is that coming
16 Thene wene holds on alI kinds of stuff. I know they wene neally
t7 eagen to get moving on some projects in Anmenia, et cetera, so I was
19 It wasn't clean whene that was coming fnom as we pushed this into
20 the PCC is the best way to come to a decision, and if
pnocess, which
21 somebody is blocking this, they need to sont of show thein hand.
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LT Uknaine because that was handled by Geonge and the Uknaine team, and,
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2 a
4 did attend a PCC meeting, not the one on the assistance pnocess, it
5 was anothen PCC that was about othen issues in Uknaine. And some was
6 those people may have been thene, thene was a huge intenagency gnoup,
7 and that was on the 31st of JuIy.
8 a Okay.
9 A I couldn't teII you who all the people were thene.
10 a Going back to the PCC pnocess, it is oun understanding thene
11 was, began on JuIy 18th, and thene were meetings the 23rd, the 26th,
L2 and then, possibly, the 31st as well?
13 A That was, it was a PCC about Ukraine, but it was not focused
77 still wondening, yoU know, when is this, you ane watching, first of
18 all, it is vitally impontant to the Uknainians; this is a key component
19 of oun policy, and second of all, you ane watching the fiscal yean
20 calendan ticking away as you head towand August, which tends to be a
2t somewhat of a down month.
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2 he had gone, and thene was still no nesolution of this, and thene was
3 anticipated to be a pnincipals sma11 gnoup. But getting Secnetany
4 Pompeo and the Secnetany of Defense togethen just wasn't happening
5 until -- and then the lift was, the hold was, seemed to be gone.
6 The understanding was that, without definitive knowledge, but my
7 undenstanding, on oun openating undenstanding was that this was being
10 is that
11 A Yes. I was at the one on the 31st of Ju1y.
-
t2 a And did you even have any communications with Acting Chief
13 of Staff Mulvaney?
t4 A No. I have neven met him, to my knowledge.
15 a Okay. Any communications with the Pnesident?
16 A No. I have neven met the Pnesident.
L7 a And then Ambassadon Sondland, what is youn expenience with
18 him ?
25 the European defense fund, and some othen aspects, and he was very
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7 we wene tnying to show U.S./EU solidanity fon Ukraine. This was the
8 ship visit langely done in nesponse to the Kench Stnait incident when
9 the Russians took some sma]1 Uknainian cnaft in the Kench Stnait going
10 into the Azov Sea illega1ly, I might add, and took hostages essentially,
11 25 Uknainian sailors.
t2 visiting, and Gondon had annanged to bring
So a U.S. ship was
13 senion EU officials along. I met him in Bnussels, and then we flew
L4 togethen to Odessa.
15 a Did you even have any discussions with Ambassadon Sondland
16 about the aid on the White House visit?
t7 A The White House visit, yes. I mean he was cleanly pant, this
18 was, his, he had the political lead as he told the Ukrainians as we
23 fonwand, what he was wonklng on, and the, you know, getting a White
24 House visit fon Zelensky and he was detenmined to get that done.
25 a The Ambassadon Sondland has, he gave a TV intenview, on he
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5 a Okay.
23 BY MR. CASTOR:
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3 anything mone than what you just offened about the innegulan --
4 A gven time, yoU know, I would comment occasionally that, wel1,
5 Gondon is doing X or Y, which would not necessanily be, as I said, the
6 regulan nemit of the Ambassador to the EU, but stanting in June, I know
23 A You know, I was looking back at, say, the WhatsApp, And once
24 BiIl was out at post, lot of contact with him. A few
I didn't have a
25 times he mailed and said, When ane you going to visit? And I was just
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L neven able to get into the calendan. We wene waiting to get thnough
2 the elections, the govennment elections and othen things. But he
3 neaIIy was dealing directly with, as far as I knew, Kunt and Sondland,
4 they would nefen to that and, of counse, Geonge Kent was my point penson
5 on that. He was kind of keeping tnack and having, I think, quite
6 negulan intenaction with Bill Taylor.
7 a Ambassadon Taylor, some of the text messages that have been
8 posted at vanious news accounts, and his opening statement, which has
9 also been made pant of the media accounts
10 A Uh-huh.
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2 was happening in Ukraine, I mean, things like the White House meeting,
3 that became almost any news on the White House meeting, you know, I
4 was looking at, in tenms of the Uknaine account and my focus on it,
5 you know, we had the leadenship in place at the mission, we had a policy
6 and a way fonward, a team that was with the full support of the President
7 and the Secretany of State wonking on this, and thene wene a few things
8 to do. And one was the Zelensky White House meeting was veny much in
9 the fore, and, you know, "Is it scheduled? Is thene any news?" would
10 come up and still no news.
11 And that sont of pnoceeded thnoughout the summen until, of counse,
L2 thene was the expectation when the Pnesident was going to Poland on
19 people ane plugged in so the seventh floon Hale and Bnechbuhl ane awane
20 of what is going on.
2L MR. CASTOR: I think my time is up, Mn. Chainman.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Why don't we take a 5- on L0-minute bneak and then
23 we will nesume.
24 I Recess . ]
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L4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- but the White House has lost confidence in you?
15 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Connect.
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2 discussed whether she was willing and able to do that when the change
3 in the pnocess of identifying hen successon was derailed because of
8 peniod of time to being told to get on the next plane, come back to
9 Washington and is infonmed that the Pnesident has lost confidence in
10 hen and then she ends up leaving that post pnior to even hen desined
11 date in Ju1y.
L2 Is that a fain summany?
L4 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, the tenm the Pnesident has lost confidence
15 is somewhat of a tenm of ant. That can mean a lot of things, is not?
19 is, or it happens also within the embassy, we have had r know many cases
20 whene the Ambassadon has lost confidence in somebody in his on her team
2t and that person is sent home, finds a new position, cuntails the
22 assignment.
25 essentially menitless. 0n what basis can you say the Pnesident lost
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5 AMBASSADOR I did not use that tenm. The tenm was what
REEKER:
10 Ambassadon to Uknaine?
16 AMBASSADOR REEKER: What I got was the Unden Secnetany had said
77 no to putting out a statement, and that we would stick with the cleaned
18 agneed nesponse that we had used that I descnibed eanlien.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: WeIl, no, I undenstand that the decision was made
20 that no, she would not be given that statement of support fnom the top
2t of the State Depantment.
22 My question is why?
25 you wene in the chain of command nesponsible fon Uknaine among 49 othen
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1 countnies ?
13 in which the Ambassadon wene told that she should expness public suppont
L4 fon the Pnesldent, did I understand that connectly?
15 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I can, give me a moment, Mr. Chainman, I'11
15 find fon you that panticulan email.
t7 Yes, what I quoted, I believe earlien, was an email from Unden
25 stating and claiming and this was also whene thene was nefenence to
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8 Secnetany Hale --
9 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Unden Secnetany Hale.
16 Sondland may have had with others about telling the Ambassadon to go
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24 thing once.
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6 THE CHAIRMAN: I take it you would think that if those facts ane
7 conrect, that coencing an aIly to engage in political investigations
8 to help a Pnesident's neelection campaign is a tennibly wnong thing
9 to do.
10 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Can you just nepeat? I want to make sune I
11 get the exact context of the question.
L2 MR. PERRY: I question the pnemise of the question, reelection
13 campaign. It is never stated and it is all hypothetical, Mn. Chainman.
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3 of that and what decisions may go with something like that, so I don't
4 feel comfontable giving a definitive answen to that.
5 Really. So you think unden certain
THE CHAIRIvIAN:
10 to a hypothetical question.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: I it wene hypothetical but nonetheless
wish
12 Ambassadon Reeken, I think it is a fainly simple question.
22 with the United States Pnesident in the Oval Office shows that the new
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2 advensanies like the Russians, who ane wene occupying Uknainian 1and,
3 night.
4 AMBASSADOR REEKER: That was one of the neasons it was pant of
5 our stnategy was to demonstnate suppont fon Pnesident Zelensky and the
6 new chapten of Uknaine moving fonward in accondance with the stnategy
7 that Kunt Volken had outlined had emerged fnom the meeting that those
8 thnee, the delegation, had had with the Pnesident on the 23nd of May.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: And because that was in the best intenests of the
10 United States, our national secunity that that meeting happened, you
11 would agree, would you not, to withhold that meeting fon help of the
12 Pnesidential campaign would be wnong.
13 AMBASSADOR REEKER: If that was the case. I don 't know that that
L4 was the case.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, but if that was the case, you would agree
16 that would be wrong.
t7 AMBASSADOR REEKER: It is the pnenogative of the Pnesident to
18 detenmine what meetings he schedules on doesn't.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Is it the pnenogative of the Pnesident to coence
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3 wouldn't you agnee that it would be wnong fon the Pnesident of the United
22 neleased.
23 THE CHAIRMAN: And the most you can say about a Pnesident who
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4 make that clean. We sat in hene fon 7 houns. And so, unless he has
5 the deposition. I haven't been able to see it. I don't know what he
6 is nefenning to othen than a leaked pantial testimony of Ambassadon
7 Taylon.
72 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not asking fon what he is neviewing, I'm just
13 waiting fon the reponten to read back the question.
74 AMBASSADOR REEKER: If you want to know, I'm neviewing the
15 opening statement that was neleased publicly by Ambassadon Taylor.
16 MR. MEADOWS: WeII, two points: One, it wasn't necessanily
t7 neleased by Ambassador Taylon. I don't know that we
25 Much of it was stuff I was not aware of, he descnibed his impnessions
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8 oven that.
9 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I was not awane that he had, I nead that he
10 considened that, I was not awane that this was happening at the time.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: So this conduct that the Ambassador thought
18 decision to nesign if that was the way he felt, that is a decision fon
19 him. Again, the conduct is, I don't know what the conduct was. You
20 ane descnibing fon me if that was what
what he questioned and wondened
2L was taking pIace, and it may have been. I was not awane of that at
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t4 this to be for.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon, you were in change of the policy of
16 Uknaine among othen countries.
77 AIvIBASSADOR REEKER: I was not, sin, in change of the policy in
18 Uknaine.
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1 it not.
2 AMBASSADOR REEKER: The Uknaine is one of the countnies in the
3 Eunope and Eunasia buneau.
4 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm asking youn opinion about what was happening
5 to subvent U.S. policy vis-i-vis the Uknaine is important. But I
6 undenstand your neluctance to express an opinion about the conduct of
8 anea, to know what you is night and what you believe is wnong.
believe
9 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I do not know what the conduct of the
10 Pnesident was. I have not met or spoken to the Pnesident on been pant
13 things that had been set out, acconding to Ambassadon Volken, embnaced
t7 meeting had not yet taken place is a fain, is a good statement. Thene
20 didn't know exactly whene on why, so we wene punsuing this PCC pnocess
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3 ane fan afield fnom my question. So let's tunn to the documents that
4 you have indicated in youn binden sevenal yellow tagged pages. Could
5 you go to the finst yellow tagged page you have in youn binden.
6 AMBASSADOR REEKER: YCS.
23 11.1 pencent do not cane. And Masha had sent that to us noting the
24 subject line, a bnight spot in my day, which, indeed, undensconed the
25 fact that the Uknainian people wene, you know, undenstood the sort of
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5 you know, we had been discussing over this peniod why, and why now,
6 was this happening in Manch.
7 Why did all this bannage of stuff begin?
8 And Geonge Kent, the deputy who manages Ukraine, pnovided some
16 guess what I'm saying is, is this a fishing expedition? Ane we just
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7 MS. DAUM: Mn. Chainmar, I'm penfectly happy to let him nead this
2 one document. May I note that those yellow flags were placed by counsel
5 Mn. Meadows has stated, was not the intention of bninging these
6 documents. They ane to help assist the committee in pnoviding in
7 helping Mr. Reeken undenstand the events in which he was panticipating.
8 They ane to help him nefnesh his necollection. tale wene mone than happy
24 THE CHAIRMAN: If the question was, what does the email say
25 pentaining to the Giuliani discussion?
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6 talked about two jounnalists who offened -- shaned their views, quote,
7 "offline" sepanately.
8 And I will quote what he wnote. He said they had talked to playens
9 extensively in Kyiv the past 5 days and knew that the Kyiv dynamic was
10 Giuliani-Lutsenko. Both thought that Guiliani had probably initiated
LT the nelationship. Panenthetical note, (I remain unsure, and I think
12 it was Lutsenko) close panenthesis. But even if Lutsenko had neached
13 out, they felt that Giuliani shaped the dynamics of the, quote,
74 "neveaI." Of most note, Giuliani allegedly told Lutsenko that he was
15 acting fu11y on the Pnesident's behalf and the Pnesident wanted Masha
15 gone.
24 of how much Ponoshenko knew on authonized the openation, the team was,
25 quote, "aII in" and would not stop, in nefenence to the attacks on Masha.
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1 Each was appalled at what Lutsenko had done and did not see any winnen
2 in this gambit except Moscow.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that the one you nefenenced earlien that had
15 the second week as all that stony was coming out. Yeah. I had come
16 on the, stanted on the 18th, and this is the following week. And so
77 it is -- this is not that specific one, I think it was fnom these, and
18 I would have to find, again, the one whene Geonge sort of had, he and
19 his team had looked at all of this with the embassy, because one of
20 the questions posed to me by the Counselor, and the Unden Secnetany
21 was exactly sont of what is pnompting this and why now? I think the
22 why now was very tied to the Uknainian political season, and the
23 pnesidential election. And so, he was fonwarding these up. And I
24 didn't send eveny single item lots of them. I
because thene wene
25 couldn't possibly read all of them, but I sent ones that seemed to
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4 as to --
5 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you tell us is it an email to and fnom and the
6 date.
7 AMBASSADOR REEKER: It is an email fnom me nesponding to an email
8 fnom David HaIe.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: ON WhAt dAtC.
15 if --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to just nead it fon us. It would be
23 was no statement.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go on to the next yellow tab.
25 MR. MALINOWSKI. Excuse me, seeking guidance, what was the
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3 I have is just this email, just, "I tnied sevenal times to get guidance
4 from Ulrich." I think at that time we wene still in this issue of,
5 this, and what can Masha do? And so his refenence
how do we push back on
16 within the Buneau where he has put togethen this, what I descnibed
L7 earlien, this four main nannatives that wene coming out of this banrage,
18 the foun nanratlves that he could see that all of this, these stories
19 belonged to essentially of these foun majon nannatives.
one
24 othen than tnying to get him to nead emails so that you can ask different
25 questions? I don't -- it neal1y will have a chilling effect on eveny
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1 single witness if what you ane going to teII them to do is don't bning
2 in documents to nefnesh youn memony, because I may get you to read them
3 all. I can't imagine that in a
4 THE CHAIRMAN: Repnesentative Meadows, do you know what has a
15 THE CHAIRMAN: WeII, we can fill you in when we are not taking
16 up the time of the witness.
77 MR. MEADOWS: I'm not awane of one.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: We just heard fnom one yestenday who is not going
19 to show up.
20 MR. MEADOWS: I'm saying to date eveny single witness has shown
27 up --
22 THE CHAIRMAN: is not even nemotely accunate, Mn. Meadows.
That
23 But let's discuss this outside the pnesence of the witness. The
24 witness has testified, Mn. Meadows, that he used these documents to
25 nefnesh his necollection. We have every night to find out what he has
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72 a question whene they can quickly nefen to it, to suggest that they
13 should go through and
20 lodged hene. The witness will go back to the document we wene nefenning
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4 to the document.
5 MR. MEADOWS: I don't necall it. Maybe she could nead that.
6 Could we have the clenk nead that back, because I'm not awane of that.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Meadows, I'fi not going to allow any furthen
8 de1ay.
9 MS. DAUM: Might I just say you ane assuming that the neason why
15 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not assuming anything except what you told us,
15 so Ambassador Reeker, you may telI us what that document is, the to
77 and fnom and the date on it, please.
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1 12:32 p.m.l
2 AMBASSADOR REEKER: This is an email that I pulled out. I
3 rememben specifically pulling this out because that pentains to the
4 question you asked and I answened eanlien about the nole of Ambassadon
5 Sondland.
6 Thene was stuff not at all connected to Uknaine, but I also asked
7 the Unden Secnetany, neminding you that I've been on the gnound in this
8 job fon 2 weeks, to undenstand betten why Gondon is involved and the
9 Unden Secnetary nesponded
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5 new into this, why the Ambassadon to the Eunopean Union was that
6 involved. And that was the answen from the Unden Secnetany.
7 THE CHAIRMAN: And was that the sum to total on that document of
23 question about making sure Under Secnetany Hale was getting aII of
24 the -- you know, he wanted to make sune he was getting infonmation.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: So this is an email fnom you on is this anothen
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LO2
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7 chain?
10 sont of making sune how we wene -- we broadly, how the Uknaine team
TL was feeding infonmation to the Under Secnetany. And the nesponse fnom
L2 the Chief of Staff was: That sounds right. The current flow is fine.
13 If you flag things fon the staffer and me when needed, we will be in
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3 demonstnating.
4 I -- and f can nememben being in -- that's why it was nelevant
was
5 whene was I -- I was back in Stuttgart. And I wanted to make sune that
5 the team, which had been feeding me stuff, was feeding it to the Unden
7 Secnetany, who was neally the -- you know, is the head of policy -- and
8 filten stuff to the Secnetany as appnopniate.
9 MR. LYNCH: Could we know if Ambassador Sondland is on that chain?
11 internal -- you know, the stuff was still coming, we'ne now about a
12 month fnom this initial deluge, and how pnocess-wise, we'ne just making
13 sune evenybody was in the loop, which, of counse, is what leads to these
t4 complex email chains.
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go to the next document.
L7 26th.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: ThC 26th Of --
19 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Apni1, I'm sonny, 26th of Apnil this yean.
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l4 and the anticonnuption pnognams as stnand one, and the attack on the
15 anticonnuption NGO as a Soros onganization as stnand foun. So that's
16 why I flagged this. It was neitenating --
t7 THE CHAIRMAN: And in that chain of communication?
who's
18 AMBASSAD0R REEKER: George Kent sent it to myself, the Acting
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L AMBASSADOR REEKER: I think you 've expined the yellow tabs . And
10 unexpectedly because of the Inanian issues thene. And then we'd gone
11 to London and I'd anrive at Andnews the monning of the 9th, gone to
t2 the --
13 THE CHAIRIvIAN: Ambassadon, we don't neaIIy need youn whole tnavel
74 schedule, just intenested in the document. Can you te1l us
15 AMBASSADOR REEKER: talel1, it helps give me context, sin, into why
16 they wene sending me things and why I pulIed them out. So this was
24 that says, "Giuliani plans to go to Kyiv to meet with Zelensky and unge
25 him to continue investigating the alleged Uknainian collusion with the
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1 Clinton campaign and the case again Hunten Biden." So it's just
2 infonmational on what was in the pness.
3 THE CHAIRMAN: And did you get a reply when you sent that out from
4 anyone ?
9 email fnom the office dinector, who is essentially the deputy to the
10 head of Uknaine, the DAS, Geonge Kent.
LL THE CHAIRMAN: Did you neceive a copy of the cable that Ambassador
15 THE CHAIRMAN: And what's the natune of that cable? And when you
16 say you've seen it since, when does that mean you've seen it?
77 AVIBASSADOR REEKER: This past weeK.
19 testimony ?
2L I went back to find it. I had not seen it in the oniginal that I recaII.
22 I thinkthe date of it was -- let's see hene -- August 29th. And this
23 was -- again, it's a classified cable, so I won't speak to it unden
24 anything that is classified.
25 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you know about the cable at the time?
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707
UNCLASS]EIED
5 why I went to neview it. If I had seen it on been awane of it, I did
7 not necalI that. And it was when I nead nefenence to it that I looked
8 it up to find it, because
9 THE CHAIRMAN: And how did you obtain it if you only saw it last
10 week?
16 go thnough.
t7 THE CHAIRMAN: So apant fnom the cable and the binder, wene thene
18 other -- in the binden of documents you have with you today -- wene
19 there othen documents you sought to neview that you do not have with
20 you today?
2t AMBASSADOR REEKER: Calendans mostly, which I have bnought to tny
22 to sont of put togethen the timeline into -- which is, I was hoping,
23 would be helpful to you to undenstand my engagement and involvement.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: Let me ask one mone question and I'm going to hand
25 back -- on ane we out of time? We'ne out of time. Okay. Then I will
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4 Scout's honon. I'm been tnying to figune out how to diet. No,
5 absolutely, sin. Thank you fon the considenation.
6 MR. MEADOWS: The deposition diet.
7 AMBASSADOR REEKER: ThiS iS NOt AN
8 appetite-inducing experience.
9 BY MR. CASTOR:
t7 When you took youn post as the Acting Assistant Secnetany, what
18 was youn undenstanding of the U.S. policy towands Uknaine was at a high
19 leveI ?
24 nobust sanctions policy. And oun diplomacy mone bnoadly acnoss Europe
25 included wonking with othen countnies to continue the bnoad suppont
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4 going on in Ukraine.
5 And of counse then the tnansition, you know, supponting fnee, fain
6 elections, which wene nemankably fnee and fain, and fainly nesounding
7 in tenms of electing Zelensky. So that was a11 the bnoad thing. And
20 cnucial and we wanted to get thnough them and be able to move fonwand
22 And then, of course, what I did undenstand once I got on the gnound
23 was the nole that Ambassadon Volken played, I hadn't had as much of
24 a gnasp of that, but that he had a veny leading noIe, and that Ambassadon
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1 And, of counse, that all became cleanen and mone defined aften
2 they had sont of been named as the delegation to the Zelensky
3 inaugunation and then metto brief the Pnesident aftenwands and took
4 the 1ead, with the fuII suppont of the Secnetany and the Pnesident,
5 in implementing the sont of way ahead that I descnibed earlien.
6 a And pant of implementing the U.S. policy with Uknaine was
11 administ nation ?
19 by the Congness and so those allocations ane diffenent than oun regulan
20 IEECA funding, on the assistance fon Eastenn Eunope and Centnal Asia,
27 was fon fiscal year 2Ot9 appnoaching $450 million, $qqS.7 million.
22 a And the pnovision of lethal defensive weapons was a
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11L
UNCLASS]FIED
2L meeting, which was not on tnack. The hope had been to have that befone
22 the panliamentany elections in Uknaine. That did not occun.
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1.12
UNCLASS I EIED
2 had had about taking the position, and he wanted to meet with the
3 Secnetary and to be neassuned that Uknaine policy was not changing.
4 And I believe he found that reassunance, because aften the May 28th
5 meeting with the Secretany he was neady to go, and then subsequently
16 invite
17 THE CHAIRMAN: Could the witness let us know what the witness is
18 nefenning to, what document?
19 AMBASSADOR REEKER: This is what I neferned to eanlien, sin.
20 This is the neadout I got from Ambassador Volker aften the Thunsday,
27 May 23nd, meeting of the Uknainian, what we called the delegation that
22 had been appointed by the Pnesident to attend the inaugunation of
23 Zelensky, that is Volken, Sondland, Secnetany Penny. And they had gone
24 to the White House, met with the Pnesident. And I think I descnibed
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9 and othens, Uknaine has fully stocked up to meet its winten gas needs
10 in onden to get through the winten should the Russians try to tunn off
11 the gas flow.
t2 And, of counse, I think it's wonth saying that oun goal is engaging
13 this new government and Zelensky on the nefonms, continuing the pness
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7t4
UNCLASS IF]ED
4 down on names. I know he and I had one meeting whene he floated a numben
5 of names that had emenged in thein discussion, some of whom I was -- some
6 of the names I was familian with.
7 a Okay. So if a name emenges in the next sevenal months, we
8 shouldn't be sunpnised?
9 A Connect. I think that's fain to say, yes.
10 a You mentioned this morning a meeting that you had aften Manch
11 2Lst, you had a meeting with the Deputy Chief of Mission of the
L2 Ukrainians ?
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15 a And what had you heand and who had you heand it from, to the
15 best of youn necollection?
L7 A I had heand as this started, when I came and it was
18 anniving Manch 18th and was sont of hit with this deluge of the negative
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I that the Pnesident was not a big fan of Uknaine. And from the meeting
2 that the delegation had, they said, you know, he's not a big fan of
3 Uknaine.
74 was this veny good stony to teIl about Pnesident Zelensky and a new
15 chapten in Uknaine. And that was his goal, was to hopefully take away
15 some of that, what we sensed was a veny negative stneam coming fnom
77 Mn. Giuliani to the Pnesident.
18 a What was your outlook on Pnesident Zelensky as he was elected
19 on his campaign of anticorruption?
20 A As I nead mone about him, it seemed impnessive. The suppont
21. that he gained in the electonate was intenesting and I think a stnong
22 statement that he didn't win by a hair on a nose on whateven cliche
23 you want to use. He had a fainly stnong and nesounding mandate fnom
24 the finst nound and then underscored at the second round.
25 Then thene was a lot of question, weIl, we'1I see what happens
UNCLASS I EIED
tt7
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t in the panliamentany elections because they may not neflect the same
15 as you know, has taken mone than t3,OO0 Uknainian lives and continues
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1 A Yes. And that was the bnoad consensus that the expents wene
2 bniefing me, is this is -- we've got this new Pnesident with a ful1
3 mandate and we'ne going to oun best to wonk with him and suppont oun
4 goal, you know, Uknaine, and offer U.S. fniendship. Obviously we had
5 done this with pnevious governments, too, mone on less -- mone and less
9 have liked, ultimately are you comfortable Ambassador Volken was tnying
13 had any contact with Mn. Giuliani. I do believe that what Kunt was
74 doing, I mean broadly, was a veny good-faith effont to move us fonwand
15 on this policy. And I think he was neaching out thene to try to, as
16 I described alneady, telI the good story that thene is to te1I with
L7 the hope that that would get Mn. Giuliani to a diffenent place in tenms
18 of what he was saying about Uknaine.
19 a And Ambassadon VoIken had developed stnong nelationships
20 with some of the key people close to Zelensky. Is that something you're
27 awane of?
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1 A -- you know.
2 A When he nesigned at the end of Septemben, was that a loss
3 to the Depantment?
4 A Yes, I believe it was.
5 a Was there any effont to tny to convince him to stay?
6 A I have had no contact with him othen than to wish him well
7 on his wedding day, which I was unable to attend due to tnavel. And
8 I can't speak fon anybody else.
9 a We were almost able to wish him well on his wedding day as
10 he was hene.
11 A We were -- my wife and I were invited to his wedding.
t4 communications you had with Ambassadon Sondland. Wene thene any othen
15 communications that you had with Ambassadon Sondland duning the time
16 peniod of July 18th and September 11th when the aid was in the pnocess
L7 of being held up, that you can nememben?
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7 the 21st, and, of counse, the Pnesident and Zelensky had a phone call
2 on the 25th, as you all know now. And I do necall knowing that thene
3 was a phone call. I was not on that phone call or pant of it.
4 a Did you get a neadout of that phone call fnom anybody?
5 A I know Kunt sent me a WhatsApp message and just said: Great
6 POTUS-Ze -- we nefenned to him as Ze, Z-e POTUS-Ze call.
7 a Anyone else?
8 A So, again, back to youn specific question about Gondon
9 Sondland, you know, I saw him hene and thene at things he would be in
10 Washington once in a while on we would be in occasional touch, because
11 thene wene also lots of othen issues with the Eunopean Union. The
72 pnesidency was changing, of course, in the summen to Finland, fnom
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t2t
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t decision on that.
2 And I don't I do have hene a note that I had a call with
3 Ambassadon Sondland on I don't nememben anything
the 30th of July, but
4 specific about that. I think it may have also had to do with -- that
5 was anound the time I had gone on the -- I went on the 31st to the PCC
19 small -- a principal small gnoup that could help fonce the decision.
20 The genenal idea that I necall was that if it's Mn. Mulvoney -- excuse
27 me, Mulvaney -- blocking we need to get to that point and then have
22 a neal decision taken nather than this unknowing.
23 a Okay. And fon the pnincipals that wene involved in that
24 decision, was it the hope that this would get nesolved and the aid would
25 be neleased?
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722
UNCLASSIFIED
13 this extremely unusual on is this something that the system was built
74 to withstand and wonk thnough?
15 A I'm not sune I could chanactenize it panticulanly we11. I
16 mean, again, I've been back and focusing on these bnoad issues of -- you
77 know, assistanceis one element in the European AOR. I've been back
18 for a couple of months. So I don't think I could --
19 MR. MEADOWS: Can I ask it a diffenent way then? Obviously
20 you'ne involved with a tot of othen aid components. Ane thene othen
2t countnies whene aid has been held up that you'ne awane of?
22 AMBASSADOR REEKER: YCS.
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8 all foneign aid was held up. Is that what you'ne saying?
9 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Fon a bnief peniod thene wene -- I thought
10 I had made a note of that -- a few days whene -- whene the assistance
LL was I want to try to be cornect and specific. HoId on 1 sec.
t2 Thene was an OMB pause on all funds that came into effect on August
13 3nd and was lifted on August 9th. At that point OMB -- and, again,
t4 I'm neading fnom what my staff passed to me fnom the assistance
15 coondinaton's office in recalling, because I asked them about
16 this -- at that point OMB imposed nestnictions on how much we could
t7 obligate at any time. So fnom the 3nd to the 9th. And then they
18 lifted, it, sir, dnibbled out.
but that was when they, as you descnibed
19 I necall specifically that Anmenia was one. There was a $9.2
20 million budget thene and I, on a tnip to Tbilisi, Geongia, I met with
2t oun Ambassadon to Anmenia, who had tnaveled to Tbllisi, and one of hen
22 concenns was, again, we ane getting down toward the end of the fiscal
23 yean, we neally want -- you know, again, we talk about Uknaine, but
24 thene wene so many othen things happening acnoss the AOR. One was
25 Anmenia, whene thene was a new government, that we wene tnying to see
UNCLASS I EIED
L24
UNCLASSI FIED
9 pnognams going. And if can't get the money, then our stnategy and oun
10 policy goals ane not thene.
fi MR. MEADOWS: So are you awane of any U.S.-Uknainian policy
72 dinective fnom the State Depantment's point of view that's not being
13 implemented right now?
15 technicalty, I guess that Pnesident Zelensky had not come to the trJhite
24 MR. MEADOWS: And I guess what I'm saying is, is thene any
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t25
UNCLASS I EIED
3 would have to go back and ask if thene wene centain initiatives that
4 ane fon one neason on anothen --
5 MR. MEADOWS: But Mn. Kent has not naised anything with you, to
6 your knowledgei
7 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Nothing comes to mind, sin, but I
8 wouldn't -- you know, I'd have to go back and double-check on ask him
9 if thene's something thene.
10 MR. MEADOWS: Thank you.
11 Steve.
t2 BY MR. CASTOR:
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11 coven it thnough the negulan channels now that we have, the embassy,
\2 obviously, with the Change, the DAS, and lowen IeveIs, office dinectons
13 and desks as appnopniate, myself, if thene's meetings that one would
t4 need to go to fon some neason.
15 The Europeans have asked this too: Hey, who is oun point penson
24 A They wene -- you know, again, it was Gordon, and Kunt, Penny,
25 the team in change that wene moving fonwand on this. And I would
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12 Mn. Penny.
13 MR. PERRY: Thank you.
L4 Thanks, Ambassadon, fon your senvice and fon youn patience hene
15 today.
16 In the last nound thene was some convensation about Uknaine
22 MR. PERRY: Would you also agnee that -- I think you showed up
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L29
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4 MR. PERRY: Right, May 21st. But would it also be in the Uknaine
5 President's best intenest to have that meeting pnion to the 21st, which
6 is thein parllamentany election?
7 AMBASSADOR REEKER:No. I'm sonry, Congnessman, thene's
8 some - - some of that's not conrect. So the finst nound of the Uknainian
19 AMBASSADOR REEKER: That had been the goal when I talked about
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4 eanly befone that election, but he came thnough the election quite
5 strongly. It was a validation of his Pnesidential victony.
5 MR. PERRY: Now, Ambassador Taylor, he showed up in country
7 anound lune 17th. Woutd he talk to you about any of his concenns
8 negarding Ukraine?
9 AMBASSADOR REEKER: little contact with Ambassadon
I had veny
t2 Kent.
18 something he talked about fnom the beginning of the finst time I met
19 him when he had indicated his willingness to considen it, which was
20 May 2nd. And I knew him a little bit fnom years past when he was at
21. State. So that had continued to be a concern and he was -- his concenns
22 wene satisfied
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1 [3:30 p.m.]
2 BY MR. PERRY:
3 a Right.
4 A -- by the meeting with the Secnetany on the 20th -- I want
5 to make sune I get it -- the 28th of May.
6 a And pnion to the publication of the phone call between the
7 President of the United States and Pnesident Zelensky, did Ambassadon
8 Taylor ever call you to expness his concenns that thene wasn't a
25 IRecess. ]
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L 14:03 p.m.l
2 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go back on the necond.
9 And then aften August 9th, it was being -- I believe, as the Congnessman
16 AMBASSADoR REEKER: The date that that began, on that that came
20 it was night anound that time I was advised that thene is a -- I think
2t the tenm "hold" was used. Nobody was quite sune where it was coming
22 fnom. The speculation, centainly, was that this was coming fnom
23 Mn. Mulvaney.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: And the fneeze in Uknaine aid wasn't lifted until
25 some point in mid-to-late Septemben.
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4 August 9th?
5 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Yes. The Uknaine aid was a panticular
6 thing, and then, of course, the Uknaine aid is a unique thing, along
7 with the Geongia aid, because it is, to my understanding, it is
8 appnopniated quite sepanately.
9 It is legislated, and I know that's why my DOD colleague was
18 that by law.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: Mn. Goldman.
20 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
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13 is oun script moving fonwand. You know, Gondon was veny involved
15 things that we had -- they had discussed aften the meeting of the 23nd
16 of May.
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11 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
t4 Sondland ?
16 time about a tot of things. He was the U.S. Ambassadon to the EU, so
L7 we had lots of things to talk about. Hene and thene, he was in
19 a Right. But you don't know, in tenms of when oven the last
20 6 months, this convensation about a scnipt may have occunred?
2t A It was certainly since -- since the elections, since
22 Pnesident Zelensky was in office, and post the 23nd of May, in light
23 of the sont of strategy, the way fonwand that Kunt Volken had nead up.
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L you said. Do you know what the context of that scnipt was fon?
2 A Exactly as I tnied to descnibe to the chainman. I just
3 rememben the use of the wond "scnipt" as in Gondon, Ambassadon Sondland,
4 was wonking. He had always said he would take -- he was sont of the
5 political lead fon oun engagement with the Uknainians at the highest
6 1eve1, including Pnesident Ze1ensky.
7 a I don't want to go back thnough all of the ye11ow tabs, but
8 I do want to nefen back to a few things that you nead fnom them. And
9 the finst one that you refenred to was a Manch 26th email that nelated
10 some infonmation fnom Uknainian jounnalists in which, at some point,
LT you read that thene was a nefenence to the fact that Giuliani, I believe,
t2 had told Uknainians that he nepresent the Pnesident.
15 Kent, Geonge Kent, based on the convensations he was having with some
16 jounnalists.
t7 Wel1, how would one descnibe it? lounnalists in the know,
18 nelating to him at an event he was attending in Cambridge, talking about
19 where all of this was coming fnom. We wene sti1l in those weeks -- and
20 to a degnee, we still ane -- what was genenating, what generated this
21 deluge of stonies, false stonies, accusations, thneats against Masha
24 his team had been pulling togethen all of this, had identified kind
25 of aIl of these stonies seemed to -- seemed to distill into foun -- four
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8 a Now, and as DAS Kent was able to flesh out these foun stnands
9 that you described, I believe you said that two of them included an
18 wene fnom an Apnil Lst emaiI. And then, I think, shontly theneaften,
19 you had a convensation, or an email communication with Unden Secnetary
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L conrect that you testified as you nead a May 10th email that Giuliani
2 planned to go to Kyiv to pness Zelensky to punsue these investigations.
3 Is that the sum and substance without being --
4 A That is, I believe, what the pness nepont necounted.
5 a Right.
6 A I did not know anything about Mn. Giuliani's plans myself.
7 a But you wene aware, at least as of neceiving that email, that
8 that was neponted publicly, connect?
L7 a Wene you awane of a New Yonk Times article that also addressed
12 Rudy Giuliani's potential trip on on about May 9th?
L4 pness that was neponting that, I think -- again, I don't get much
22 of command were asking: Do you have any feel fon whene this is coming
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1 I couldn't possibly nead even all of the emails and tweets and
2 stuff that they fonwanded up, but it was to give me an idea of, again,
3 these foun, what they had distilled into foun seeming narnatives.
4 a of the neason that you wene asking Mn. Kent to
And pant
5 compile this infonmation is that you wene getting questions fnom your
6 superions about it, too, right?
7 A Right, and as I did, and then as I think I mentioned cleanly,
8 thene was a question while I was in -- tnaveling. I think I was in
9 Germany at the time -- to make sune that Unden Secretary Hale was
10 neceiving the night amount, you know, that he was getting what he needed
11 too, to keep him bnoadly abneast of what was being talked about in the
L2 pness on this.
13 a Right. And thene was an email to you that said that Unden
t4 Secnetany HaIe wanted to be mone, quote, "tightly lashed up, " unquote,
15 with Uknaine mattens, night?
L5 A I believe that's what the email said without looking at it.
L7 a So thene was a desine fon mone infonmation about what's going
18 on in Uknaine fnom youn superions?
19 A What the pness was neponting. We get reponting fnom oun
20 embassy on an - - Embassy Kyiv is a mill that does excellent analysis
2L and neponting.
22 What we wene tnying to track in those eanly weeks was: What is
23 all of this coming out, and whene is it coming fnom, and what ane the
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UNCLASS I EIED
5 a It is an anticle from The New York Times dated May 9th. lust
6 take a quick look at this if you could.
7 A Uh-huh.
8 a Ane you familian with this anticle?
9 A It sounds familian. I know that I don't know Kenneth Voge1
10 himself, but I know his byline.
11 a Right. I'm not asking if you know Kenneth Vogel himself.
L2 I'm wondening if this is familian to you because you saw it anound the
13 time that it was published.
l4 A I couldn't say on May 9th. I anrived back on a, you know,
15 ned-eye flight fnom Baghdad and London, and went almost dinectly to
16 Masha Yovanovitch's hononing cenemony at the National Defense
17 Univensity.
18 a Right. So this is similar to that Newsweek article that you
19 had in youn email. I don't know whether you would have neceived this
20 anticle in your email as we1l, but
2t A Pnobably not, because I think it probably would have been
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1 a A11 night, because notably, and I will nead the second and
2 thind panagnaphs.
25 message between you and Ambassadon Bill Taylor on May 26th, whene
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7 those stnands, one of those nannatives that Was veny much there. I
8 think Ambassadon Volken descnibed it as a distnaction fnom oun focus
9 on Uknaine and policy.
10 a And Ambassadon Volken would have descnibed it to you as a
Ll distnaction to the policy anound this same time, in May?
13 concenns and nesenvations about, you know, I can't take this job if
16 confinmed that would happen and they were looking fon a date.
t7 a Right. I undenstand that. I'm just asking, when you said
18 that Ambassadon Volken also reitenated something along this line - - if
19 I can pin a time on that.
20 A I said to him, Ambassadon Volken, you know, I think Bill
When
27 has got some cold feet, and I may have even shaned with him some of
22 the WhatsApps on messages. Hene is what BilI is concenned about. He
23 was saying, yes, that's -- that's distnaction. We need to focus on
24 moving oun policy fonwand. I mean, I think that's the, you know,
25 Giuliani, his distnaction.
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2 undenstrrod that this was -- that Rudy Giuliani was fomenting this
3 intenest in these investigations at that time, night?
4 A Connect. I think that's what Mn. Giuliani was saying
5 himself quite public1y.
6 a Connect. So that's on May 26th, and then you go into the
7 May 28th meeting with Secnetany Pompeo. And who was at that meeting
16 A Yes.
2L know, the genenal tone was the Pnesident, was the inaugunal team, on
22 the Thnee Amigos -- his tenm, not mine-- had come back, gone to this
23 bniefing, and the Pnesident was not in a good mood.
24 He was just unhappy about Uknaine, did not like Uknaine, and
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1 just kept pnessing ahead and saying, but Mn. Pnesident, thene ane these
3 to keep working on this. And that produced the neadout that Kunt had
10 that meeting with Secnetary Pompeo on the 28th, did the name Rudy
t4 the May 23nd meeting, did the name Rudy Giuliani come up?
16 and othens that were thene that Rudy Giuliani is feeding the Pnesident
L7 a lot of veny negative views about Uknaine. And
18 a Did you undenstand that that was, at least, pant of the basis
19 for the Pnesident's displeasune with Uknaine?
20 A Yes. That's fain to say. That was my -- that was what the
27 takeaway was.
22 a Did in any of the convensations nelated to, on that
23 followed that May 23rd meeting, did Ambassadon Volker, Ambassadon
24 Sondland, did anyone give you the impnession that they -- that the
25 Pnesident wanted them to coondinate on consult with Mn. Giuliani about
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1 Uknaine ?
4 fon instance, had mentioned he was talking -- talking to Rudy, and the
5 goal was to tny to help. I think Kunt felt -- I don't want to speak
6 fon him too much, but, centainly, the undenstanding fnom the -- it was
7 the tail end of a convensation, I recall. And he said, you know, I
8 can -- I can help him undenstand that this is a newUknaine, and I think
9 he just felt he could talk to him and change his view, which would then,
13 in connection with the Bidens and the 2016 election in some fashion?
TL May 28th meeting, that Ambassadon Volken undenstood what Rudy Giuliani
L2 was advocating in nelation to Uknaine?
13 A As of May 28th, I do not know that fon sune. I cannot nead
27 A BiIl Taylon had said, you know, I'm concenned that this
22 Giuliani-Biden, as he called it-- I won't go back to the
again
23 email -- is going to cause a change in the policy, and if that's going
24 to be the case, I'm not -- I'm not your guy.
25 a And you undenstood that the Biden was a nefenence to this
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UNCLASSI FIED
L7 I don't believe they had met befone. And I think by the end of the
18 meeting, he came away feeling, yep, Bill was the guy he wanted to go
19 out in this nole as the Change, and BiIl was, in his own wonds,
20 panaphnasing, neassuned and felt he could go out and do this job in
27 good faith.
22 a And just to be put a pin on it, what was he neassuned about?
23 A You would have to ask him, but he told me, "I'm good to go."
24 a That's all he said to you? And you don't rememben how --
25 A He came out of that saying, good to go, you know. My problem
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7 set was to take care of the mission. Bill going to be the guy?
Was
5 be --
6 a I undenstand. And you descnibed that already. And I don't
7 mean to be the nude. We just ane going to be hene all night if we don't
16 A For the State Depantment and the talhite House. They were the
L7 thnee leads.
18 a And did you have an understanding that the Pnesident had
19 dinected that?
20 A Yes, Gondon was veny clean in that, that the Pnesident has
21. asked me to do this; we will lead this up hene. That was veny clean
22 in the neadout I got aften the May 23nd meeting.
23 a And you had also said sevenal times today that Secnetany
24 Pompeo had also affinmed that arrangement too. Is that night?
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23 the Uknainians?
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L4 that in the pness, the suggestions of it. That was, centainly, you
15 know, things we wene asking, but thene was no clean indication of that.
16 That was not the policy that I was awane of, the stnategy that we wene
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4 back fnom Ambassadon Volken about any of his convensations with Rudy
5 Giuliani ?
22 know, we were waiting fon the Russians to respond about anothen meeting,
23 Kunt and his countenpant, and they had been pushing off.
24 And up until the time he nesigned, they neven agneed to meet again.
25 They told me when I was in Moscow a few weeks ago, 0h, yeah, we'II do
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T it, we'ne getting neady. But they neven had. So that was a question.
9 about what tnanspined thene and any meetings he may have had with
10 Uknainian officials?
11 A I don't necall anything fnom that, oo.
t2 a He didn't te1I you about a pnivate convensation he had with
13 Pnesident Zelensky?
L4 A Not that I'm recalling.
15 a Wene you familian with a Ju1y 10th meeting at the White House
16 whene Ambassadon Sondland attended, along with Secnetany Penny,
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L A No.
2 a And the only neadout you got fnom the July 25th caII was fnom
3 Ambassador Volken saying that it was a gneat caII?
4 A Yeah. I never saw -- we don't get tnanscnipts of the
5 Pnesident's cal.I. The President's
6 a I know that. f'm just asking you, that was the only neadout
7 you even got?
8 A Yeah, I don't necall having anybody even mentioning it too
9 much.
t4 I was meeting with a new Gneek Govennment in Athens, and that was, I
15 think, when I came back alneady, that was when we wene in that PCC
25 call. I had that in my notes. And that was -- that was the 25th of
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2 a Wene you awane of whethen on not, on did you hean at any point
3 that Mn. Giuliani may have met with any senion Ukrainian officials in
4 eanly August?
5
19 no neason they would come to telI me that. But that does -- I have
20 to say that does sound familian.
2t a And this is now the second time that when we've asked you
22 about that eanly to mid-August timefname, yoU've nefenned back to that
23 convensation with Ambassadon Sondland about a scnipt. Is it your
24 belief that the convensation you had with him about a scnipt was in
25 that timefname?
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5 a And then you wene awane -- on when did you leann that the
13 A No.
19 actual decision, nathen than somebody says OMB is holding this, and
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t2 A That these vanious stories that, you know, was this tied to
13 something? That was a question. Was this tied to something to do with
14 investigations? Was this tied to Rudy? But nobody knew for sune, and
22 July 29th, and this is, I just mentioned that Geonge was saying thene
23 was this -- this idea out thene that D.C. had pushed Kyiv on
24 accunate ?
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L MR. MALINOWSKI: Can I ask who the think tank penson was?
15 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
20 A Right.
2t a Okay. Did you finish the email? I'm sonny?
22 A Yeah, and that's in keeping with, you know, the stonies that
23 were cinculating. What we had was no no clanity on definition.
24 What -- and sont of my Uknaine box, we ane sti1l wonking on getting
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18 BY MR. CASTOR:
24 A Okay.
25 a In January of 2@17.
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UNCLASS]EIED
L A Okay.
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9 oh, you know, nunning, you know, staffing, nunning oun mission, and
t4 hen.
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6 we have copies of that, but unless you would like me to mank it fon
15 A Uh-huh.
16 a -- called him a clown. Some Facebook posts called him, or
t7 nefenenced him as a misfit. Wene you awane that Avakov, on anyone in
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1 [5:03 p.m.]
2 BY MR. CASTOR:
3 a And if he had a good faith belief that these issues wene out
4 thene, could that be -- have been a motivating facton fon some of the
5 issues discussed in exhibit 1, the othen Vogel anticle?
6 A Again, I can't pnejudge the Pnesident's view. He's the
7 Pnesident. He makes his own decisions.
L7 But this is a new Uknaine, this is Zelensky, and hene what is we want
18 to do to move fonwand.
19 a And his negative energy on Uknaine, as fan as you know, it
20 didn't nelate to political neasons, did it?
2t A I couldn't speculate. It was just nelayed to me that he
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UNCLASS IF]ED
1 it would have a political upside fon him, that wasn't nelayed to you,
2 was it?
3 A I mean, thene was media neponting to that. I mean, that's,
4 I think, what Mn. Giuliani was saying quite publicly.
5 a But his deep-nooted skeptical view of Uknaine was just a
6 pensonally held belief of the Pnesident as fan as you undenstood?
7 A I don't know that.
8 a Okay. Duning the breaks, on I guess the last bneak, I
9 had leave the SCIF, get neconnected with the communications.
10 A You couldn't let go.
11 a WelI. And I guess some of oun Membens bnought to
L2 Mn. londan's attention -- who can't be here today, and he apologizes.
13 He has tnied to be at all of these, and he appneciates your testimony
20 you appeaned and signaled what you might testify to. And so he
2L was -- thene has been some just questions about whethen that was being
22 pushed out fnom you, on youn camp, on whethen that was coming from eithen
23 our side on thein side. I could say it wasn't coming fnom our side.
24 I had no idea what you wene --
25 A As you can imagine, I know a lot of jounnalists fnom my days
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3 a Okay.
8 you wene going to say, it didn't come from you on your camp?
11 that came out last night that I -- now I can't even necall what it said,
L2 but I nemember thinking, we1l, that's not -- I mean, it just had, 1ike,
13 inaccunacies about me. But that's the natune of this business.
t4 a Okay. But you didn't fonecast youn testimony to anybody?
15 A No, sir.
15 a So if anybody did
17 A The only thing I've even done was -- and, fnankly, State
18 Depantment jounnalists have a much better gnasp of undenstanding what
19 the nole is of an Acting Assistant Secnetany fon Eunope. Thene were
23 earlier this monning about Geonge Kent's foun nannatives that he wnote
24 Up, and I believe you nelated that one of them had Bunisma in it.
25 A Uh-huh.
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6 it.
7 a Ane you familiar, lt's run by a fonmen ecology ministen,
8 Zlochevsky ?
20 on when f was tnying to gnasp what is all this about, Geonge was able
2L to give me some basic parametens.
22 a Okay. And did anybody even nel-ate to you, does Hunten Biden
23 have a panticulan expentise in conponate govennance?
24 A I don't know.
25 a Okay.
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3 was put on the boand fon any other reason othen than the fact that he's
+ nelated to the fonmen Vice Pnesident?
5 A I couldn't say. I don't know the boand and I don't know him.
6 Q Okay. In any of youn convensations with Ambassadon Volken,
7 did he ever nelate to you that if thene ane connupt Uknainians on
8 Ukrainians doing bad things that, You know, ifthat's the subject, and
9 they'ne at Bunisma or some othen type of oliganch-affiliated
10 to neopen those investigations?
entenpnise, that Zelensky ought
11 A I do not neca1l that specifically. I know Kunt and I, long
t2 befone I got this kind of out-of-the-blue tnansplant back to Washington
13 and this job, when I was appnoached about and in the process of
\4 potentially being the candidate fon nomination to Uknaine, and that
15 Kunt had been named, I talked to him about his bnoad intenest in what
16 he believed was the cnitical piece in the Uknaine puzzle was somehow
19 at antitnust legislation and trying to bonnow fnom what the U.S. had
20 done, and that thene is difficulty in that if you go to the
a centain
Zt Depantment of lustice night now, antitrust is not what it was back in
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6 just saying: Hey, Ukraine is a democnacy, they had good elections and
7 elected this guy. And that's stil1 whene we ane, is how can we canny
8 this forwand.
9 a In tenms of any of the Uknainians investigating connuption
10 on neopening cases, whethen it's Burisma on any othen case, that would
11 relate to Uknainians, not investigating Americans. Is that youn
t2 undenstanding?
L6 A I don't necall except thene was all this stuff about Hunten
t7 Biden. 5o I don't know if that was
18 a And do you know whethen that like h,as an investigation of
19 Hunten Biden on an investigation of Uknainians and how they --
20 A I neaIly don't, I don't. I neven nead the stonies of all
2L this to that.
22 a But it could have been eithen way?
23 A I just don't know.
24 a okay.
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1 BY MR. CASTOR:
4 how that came about. Was that like an onganic effont whene the majonity
5 just saw the yelIow tabs and stanted asking you about it?
6 A So, yeah, I mean, because I find things like this amusing.
11 pninten.
L2 in a few cases actually thene was too much yeIlow papen in,
And
13 so other things got printed. It was ones that I wanted that wene key
L4 ones, Iike the one I had taken out here that is the neadout fnom the
15 23nd meeting at the White House.
76 And hen very nice assistant took, when she made the copies, took
17 all the ones that wene on yellow papen and stuck a yellow sticky on
18 it so that I would know.
19 a Okay.
20 A And that's aLl it was, so --
2t a Okay.
22 A And some of it was just because the papen was in the pninter.
23 Sonry.
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t7t
UNCLASS ] FIED
1 reading selected yellow-tabbed emails, oun side wondens how that comes
2 to be.
13 25th.
t4 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah, but how would he know?
76 MR. MEADOWS: WeLI, but he wonked fon Bunisma and for the Atlantic
77 Council. Did you know that?
18 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I,m nOt I did.
SuNC
25 didn't. I looked at it, and I saw what George had said, that no --
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UNCLASS 1 FIED
7 whispens. I mean, I couldn't put a date to it, but this town is full
8 of fonmen officials.
9 MR. MEADOWS: So you say you know him. How do you know him?
t7 at the U.S. -- at the Wonld's Fair, the Expo 2@1-5, and he was possibly
22 often people hean fnom Inedacted], on I may have bumped into him hene
23 or thene, but I'm not panticulanly close to him. I don't know him that
24 well.
25 MR. MEADOWS: Okay. And do you think that -- would you
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UNCLASS I FIED
8 And he's nemained centainly intenested. It's, you know, it's up thene
9 in impontance. You've got this hot wan going on, 13,000 people alneady
10 killed, so --
11 MR. MEADOWS: So would you say that Secnetany Pompeo has been
t2 suppontive of youn effonts and youn job overall?
13 AMBASSADOR REEKER: 0f my broad effonts in the Eunopean Buneau?
L4 Yeah.
15 MR. MEADOWS: So any headlines that would say that you're being
16 negative towand Secnetany Pompeo would be misplaced then?
L7 AMBASSADOR REEKER: That I'm being negative towand Secretany
18 Pompeo ?
UNCLASSIE IED
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UNCLASSIT]ED
1 Pompeo blocks show of suppont fon ousted Ambassadon." And then the
2 anticle goes on to give mone of a negative connotation about your view
3 of Secnetary Pompeo.
4 Would you say that that is an accurate neflection of youn personal
5 views ?
18 the job was to take care of the mission, but most impontantly, to take
19 cane of oun, my people. And she was one of them and also a fniend and
21 futune.
22 We had talked with hen, of counse, about the possibility of taking
23 the assignment at EUCOM, which had come open because of my move hene.
24 And then, you know, I was with hen in the meeting with the Deputy
UNCLASS I EIED
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UNCLASS I FIED
7 Of counse she got hen awand and induction into the Ha}} of Fame
2 at the NDU, went back, you know, was reassuned by human resounces then,
3 which took oven to find hen the appropniate, if she wasn't going to
4 do EUCOM, what assignment might she be intenested and what wene the
5 possibilities, and neassuned about that.
6 But I stiIl, you know, think it is unfontunate that such a fine
7 pnofessional Foneign Senvice officen, Amenican, and, most impontantly,
8 human being, had to go thnough that.
9 BY MR. CASTOR:
L7 intelligence fnom a call tnanscnipt that hadn't come out fon 2 mone
18 months.
19 A We11, the only thing I would say about that is that this stony
20 line had been out thene going back centainly to Manch and the Rudy
2t Giullani stuff that was on live TV saying that, I mean, that was what
22 he was doing, so --
23 a But was it in to the call?
nefenence
24 AThat is the notion of the email. I can nead it to you again.
25 The subject }ine: IRedacted], colon, is it tnue that, question
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18 I did talk to -- I have a note that I had a call with Ambassadon Sondland
19 on the 30th.
20 And it was at the end of that week that Tim Monnison came oven.
21, He was quite new at that stage. He had just taken oven fnom Fiona HiII.
22 And we, my team, the seven DAS's, or particulanly my Acting Pnincipal
23 Deputy, Michael Munphy, we had invited Tim Monrison oven.
24 And so on the 1st of August, that Thunsday, he came and did a senies
25 of meetings and bniefings with some of oun offices just to sont of get
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L up to speed on Eunopean issues because he had moved over fnom the anms
2 contnol dinectonate, I think, at NSC. And so that was the finst time
3 I met him in penson and we had a quick sont of takeout lunch in my office,
4 he and Michael and I.
5 And I don't -- we pnobably touched on Uknaine, but I don't have
7 time, you know, any news on the date fon the White House meeting?
8 And then I did see Kunt Volken that day, so August 1st.
9 BY MR. CASTOR:
13 team, somehow his cleanance didn't get passed so they wouldn't Iet him
74 into the White House compound.
15 And so, finally, he said, "A11 night, you guys go aheadr " because
76 we wene alneady late, Geonge and I, and he handed me the locked bag
t7 with the matenials we needed fon the PCC, but he didn't hand me the
18 key.
20 a fu1}, fuII noom, I mean veny intenagency. I know DOD was sitting
2t night next to me, NSC fo1ks, and thene was Tneasuny and Justice and
22 A DNI?
25 some -- again, the focus was not on the assistance, thene was that
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1 sepanate pnocess, and at that point they wene waiting to see if they
2 could puII togethen the pnincipal small gnoup. But this was mone
9 fnom, she had bnought up again, she said: I know this isn't about
10 assistance, but I just want to say is thene any -- anybody have any
11 updates on the assistance because we need to stant moving on this
L2 because we have a mandate.
13 Again, it was DQD's issue. That stuff passes thnough State, but
t4 it was neally vested with them, and we wene all sti1l wondening whene
24 know, we'ne talking 50 countnies and the things that were going on in
25 that peniod. But as of night off the bat it was not something I was
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1 awane of.
2 My focus on this was, okay, the Uknaine pnoblem set is White House
3 meeting and now assistance. We wene tnying to wonk this assistance
4 thing and figure out whene the holdup is, if it's Mulvaney. We wene
6 it. The scheduling, as I've alneady said, was difficult. And then
12 we could delay.
1.6 CEPA confenence. So I had hoped I didn't have to cancel that, which
77 is why when they offened Satunday I --
18 a Okay. But Monday would have been a penfectly fine option?
19 A It would have been difficult to then leave and go because
20 of my having canceled evenything last week to prepare and then be hene.
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1 fnom the Secretany's tnip to Gneece and all of the things we have done
2 with the new Gneek Govennment -- which is neally quite something. The
3 Secnetary signed a new annex to the mutual defense coopenation
4 agneement with just taking us in a whole new dinection. It's
Gneece
11 just coming back from the Gneece tnip. But when I thought I was going
L2 to be testifying on on doing this deposition on Wednesday I pulIed out
13 of that, which I think was scheduled fon Tuesday, as I recaI1.
L4 MR. MEADOWS: I want to clean up, Ambassadon, I don't know that
15 when I mentioned the think tank individual, without going back to his
t7 he wonked fon Bunisma, in spite of weaning a jacket and a hat that said
18 Bunisma. The only known connection that I have is that he wonks fon
19 the Atlantic Council. And so I just want to make sune that I'm clean
20 fon the record.
27 AvIBASSADOR REEKER: Okay. I don't eithen, to be honest. My
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7 MR. CASTOR: Any concenn that the Atlantic Council gets some
8 event in New Yonk during the UNGA week, the end of Septemben, at the
9 end of September, night anound the time all this was starting. And
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L Bunisma, but it was quite clean veny eanly on fnom Rudy Giuliani's
2 public comments, not to mention anything he might have said to
3 Ambassadon Volken on the in pnivate, it was quite clean
Thnee Amigos
4 fnom Giuliani's public comments that his intenest in Bunisma was the
5 Bidens, nightl
6 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Uh-huh.
11 numben of times.
L2 THE CHAIRMAN: He nefenred to the Bidens?
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1 THE CHAIRMAN: And when you came back and took over this pontfolio
2 and all this was happening with Ambassadon Yovanovitch, youn shop made
3 sune that you wene awane of sont of what was going on in the pness and
4 what the issues were so you could be bnought up to date.
5 AMBASSADOR REEKER: We were tnying to figune out whene this was
7 hey, we'ne getting these inquiries about this. And then we found the
8 stony in The HilI. In fact, I think they said we've gotten questions
9 fnom The Hill who wene wniting a stony that, and that stants generating
10 the process, and then it was this deluge.
11 And so both for oun intenest in the Buneau to tny to get a handle
L2 on it, but also to feed upwands centainly to my chain of command of
13 Unden Secnetany Hill and Counselon Bnechbuhl, the sont of what and why
L4 now, they wene tnying to feed that. That's why I had so many, so many
L9 wene foun stnands, he was doing it. This was centainly not an enormous
20 focus of mine because I had, you know, 50 countnies to deal with and
2L bnand new to a job and then trying to deal specifically with Masha.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: And to those foun stnands, one was Bidens and
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L THE CHAIRMAN: And then, you know, you've nead the call recond,
2 that two issues the President brings up with Pnesident Zelensky ane
8 Uknaine
24 of the Thnee Amigos fon Uknaine policy, he would dig into Ukraine. And
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6 familianized himself with the issues Giuliani had been raising publicly
7 and the -- and thein nelationship to U.S.-Uknalne nelations.
8 AMBASSADOR I don't want to go too fan because we didn't
REEKER:
9 have those conversations, so I don't know how much he delved into it.
10 He did mention to me that was going to tny to talk to Rudy and help
11 him undenstand, you know, what we were tnying to do now with Zelensky.
L2 THE CHAIRMAN: In the same way you wene being thonough, though,
13 making sune you undenstood the backgnound, you would have expected that
74 he'd be doing the same, night.
15 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Yeah. I mean, I think Kunt is thonough. I
16 just can't testify to any specifics on that because we didn't talk about
17 it.
18 THE CHAIRMAN: Now, you were asked -- you had nesponsibility for
19 about 50 countnies.
20 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Uh-hUh.
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1 employee
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I want to ask you about the anticle, and I don't
5 have it with me, that came out today appanently about youn expected
7 testimony.
8 You voiced suppont fon a statement coming out from the highest
9 levels of the State Depantment supponting Ambassadon Yovanovitch, did
10 you not?
11 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I did on a couple of occasions. In that
t2 pnocess we tnied to push fon a stnongen statement.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: And Ambassadon Kent was very stnongly in favon of
t4 a statement coming from the top of suppont fon Yovanovitch. Is that
15 right.
16 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Yes. Yes.
19 that statement ended up becoming pant of the neason why he would nesign.
23 became focused on this when -- at the time that the tnanscnipt, on what
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1 AIVIBASSADOR REEKER: The call necord was neleased and had these
5 fnom the top of the State Department expnessing suppont fon this supenb
8 THE CHAIRMAN: And yet the wond you got back was no, connect?
15 statement on its own menits, standing on its own two feet, of suppont
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7 office was the no. The pnocess, it did not -- P says no statement.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Ane you awane of whethen the Unden Secnetany
9 actually submitted his own nequest on supponted the nequest fon the
10 statement.
1.L AMBASSADOR I do not know what he did.
REEKER:
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L Sec neta ry .
4 be no statement.
5 THE CHAIRMAN: I pnesume that if the Secnetany wanted a statement
6 one would have been sent out. Is that fair to say
7 AIVIBASSADoR REEKER: If the Secnetany wants something, he can take
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19 office ?
21 detenmined -- I don't know anything mone than what I have told you to
22 the best of my ability.
23 0n my finst week in this office, when we pnoposed a statement that
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6 MR. REEKER. No, I said he wrote that I had been trying to consult
7 with Bnechbuhl, but it was a sepanate chain fnom the no statement thing.
8 MR. MALINOWSKI: okay. And ane you awane of any communications
9 between the State Department and the White House on this question, the
10 Chief of Staff's office on any -- on the NSC --
IL AIVIBASSADOR REEKER: I AM NOt.
15 fnom -- towand the end of that week, anound the 30th, thene was a
16 question fnom the NSC, I think fnom Fiona Hill herself penhaps, saying:
17 Is there a statement about Masha? Is thene a statement of suppont?
18 And I did not pensonally -- I wasn't pensonally involved in the
24 MR. MALINOWSKI. Did you clean a dnaft statement with the NSC when
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11 to assume it's the foneign leaden on the other end of the line.
t2 MR. MALINOWSKI : That ' s tnue, sometimes it ' s a Russian comedian.
15 And don't we also assume that that foreign leaden has staff, maybe
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2 tnanscnipt, that they have thein own way of reponting to relevant people
3 in thein administnation what was said on that phone call, just as we
4 do in ours?
72 Ukraine one would have to presume thene is anothen great powen that
13 might conceivably leann what happens on a conversation like that.
t4 And isn't this one neason why most administnations
15 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to have him nespond to that.
16 MR. MALINOWSKI: I,M SONTY.
23 yes.
24 MR. MALINOWSKI: Okay. And this is also one reason why most
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1 foneign leaden ane shared with oun Ambassadon to that countny, with
2 the Assistant Secnetany, with people who commonly deal with officials
3 fnom that countny. Is that connect?
1.4 neasonable -- and, of counse, we don't know and you don't know -- but
15 is it neasonable to assume that if the Pnesident of Uknaine heand
1.6 something in a phone convensation with the U.S. Pnesident that
t7 concenned him about penhaps U.S. policy veening in a different
18 dinection fnom whene it had been, that this news would spnead within
19 the Ukrainian bureaucnacy and that somebody might neach out to a
20 friendly Amenican contact, penhaps a fonmen U.S. Ambassadon, to say:
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7 again, we don't know and I'm not asking you to suggest you know -- but
2 it's conceivable that he might have learned about this fnom his many
L2 pnionities change.
13 And you testified that you had no idea and that the team wonking
15 but you didn't know why. You tnied to find out, you didn't know.
16 AMBASSADOR REEKER: Right, the exact, at least what was filtening
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2 Senvice caneen, can you think of any instances you wene involved with
3 when aid to an impontant countny, a countny you wene wonking on, was
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6 experience, which I think may have one been of the neasons they bnought
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9 MR. MALINOWSKI: And pant of thls -- I mean, yoU ane the chief
10 advison to the Secnetany of State on policy towands all these countnies,
11 are you not?
L2 AMBASSADOR REEKER: No, that would be the Unden Secnetany fon
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L in the EUR.
3 taken and made clean to me that Uknaine policy was being implemented
4 and Ied by Ambassadon Volken, Ambassadon Sondland, and to an extent
13 mone. Is that --
L4 AMBASSADOR conrect. As I testified eanlien, you
REEKER: No,
15 may have been out of the noom and fongive me if you wenen't, we have
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1 engagement.
L7 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
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7 the Pnesident himself has directed who should handle policy fon that
8 count ry?
11 othens who report to him. But in tenms of the bnoaden policies they
t2 know, I mean, I take that dinection fnom the Unden Secretany to the
13 Secretany.
L4 a That's the nonmal channel?
15 A Yes.
16 a The fact that the Pnesident dinected Ambassadon SondIand,
L7 Ambassador Volken, and Secnetary Perny to be involved in Uknaine is
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1 [6:03 p.m.]
2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
4 in his nole when Ambassadon Yovanovitch was thene and this annangement
5 did not exist.
6 A How do you mean?
15 are diffenent than the annangement we're talking about hene today. And
16 that's the question fon you. Ane the special envoys that you ane tnying
t7 to equate with the situation --
18 A I'm not -- you asked me bnoad questions, I'fi just tnying to
19 answen them. You asked am I awane ane of any situation, so I'm just
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9 Azenbaijan and the Minsk pnocess, which is under OSCE which deals with
t7 Mitche1l.
18 a I know. I was just asking, does he have particulan expertise
19 in Uknaine?
20 A Yes, absolutely. Which is why I rely on him and feel so fully
27 confident, yoU know. When you'ne a managen and an executive, you build
22 a team that you can nely on that handles these things.
23 a Right.
24 A So Geonge has been a critical pant of that.
25 a And in panticular, given that you coven 50 countnies, you
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2 of his expentise?
3 A Right. And his team, he's got a gneat team of office
4 dinectons, deputies, desk officens.
5 a And so what you've descnibed hene today is essentially that
6 the detailed work of State Depantment related to Uknaine, pnimanily
7 nan thnough Geonge Kent. And whateven else was going on, in tenms of
8 the Presidential directive and Rudy Giuliani was nun thnough Ambassadon
L4 And why he was the point person with oun Eunopean colleagues and allies
15 in Ben1in and Panis thnough the so-ca1led Nonmandy pnocess and the Minsk
16 agneements that wene supposed to be implemented but neven have been
77 by Russia.
18 And that nole of his expanded. He took on much mone engagement
19 in tenms of messaging in the pness. He's veny effective with it. He
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L extnemely collegial, knows the negions, both Uknaine, and the Eastenn
2 Eunope, and the Caucasus extnemely well.
3 a Did you even come acnoss any memos to file that he wrote
4 nelated to Uknaine oven the past 6 months?
5 A Oh, I would have to go back and see. You know, he sent a
6 Iot of email in those eanly days, panticulanly -- I was so new to it,
7 and as I've said, tnying to undenstand where was this coming fnom, what
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UNCLASSIFIED
5 the finst one in this pnocess, and I was tnaveling with the Secnetary
6 in ItaIy, and the Balkans, and Gneece. And I heand fnomthe Pnincipal
7 Deputy, who of course was acting, Ambassadon Conmack, that thene had
8 been some, yoU know, fairly acnimonious meetings, and he had laid
9 out -- I'm just -- I don't necall specifically the fonmat or what I
10 saw on if this was nelayed to me, what happened in that experience,
11 which was, you know, which he was laying out in not a positive
t2 expenience.
13 a Did you have any connespondence with Ambassadon McKinley
74 aften this investigation came to light and befone he nesigned?
15 A He sent me an email in New Yonk. I'm pnetty sune it's not
16 in hene, on the Satunday -- let's nefer to the tnusted -- ah. Thank
L7 you. Thank you. I have counsel, it is in hene. Okay. And all that
18 pninting.
19 So Satunday, Septemben 28th. And he did send an email saying,
22 Yovanovitch. " This is aften the transcnipt of the telephone caII, the
23 Pnesident's caLl - - fon pnofessionalism and counage, pnefenably today.
24 Anticles ane pnolifenating and we should comment, not Least because
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4 May, when centain media wenefull thnottle. And I said, you may want
5 to include Cano1 Perez in pensonnel and human nesounces in the
6 discussion. And I think I don't have the funthen, but I necall that
7 he then sent it, including Canol and she said, I agnee too, and
8 that's -- that was my word fnom him.
9 a Did you have any funthen convensations with anyone supenion
10 to you about such a statement?
LL A I received a phone call fnom Unden Secnetany Ha1e, who
13 left that to take a call in the openations centen. And he said, you
L4 know, this email that -- I haveto panaphnase because I don't nememben
22 email he included David HaIe and both spokespenson Ortagus on that end.
23 I'm not sune I even saw any nesponse, funthen nesponse.
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UNCLASSIEIED
74 statement henself - -
15 A Uh-huh.
15 a -- and a statement fnom the Department. Do you necall that
L7 email whene thene was a discussion of those two ideas that wene being
18 fed up the chain?
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2t0
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1 any additional nelevant documents fnom Geonge Kent, or any SOCs that
2 came out of the intenagency meetings? Is thene anything eLse in thene
3 that's panticulanly nelevant?
10 Giuliani ?
13 widely as, one might say, speculation or this was one of those
1.4 nannatives. And, you know, as we've discussed, Mn. Giuliani was saying
23 a But nothing after, Let's say, May 28th in that meeting with
24 Secretany Pompeo that you necall fnom youn review of youn documents?
25 A No, just -- I don't think there wene any funthen emails.
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2LL
UNCLASS I F]ED
1 a But suffice it to say that you printed out this select gnoup
4 came fnom e-files that I tnied to save. So I had one that said "Masha. "
5 And this Masha thing, which was, again, Iitenally cneated my second
6 day on something because all this was coming out. I was veny concenned.
7 I was just tnying to understand, finst of aII, whene was this going
8 on, not only fon my own -- whene was this coming fnom, and what nea11y
9 was going on hene, what was dniving this, but a1so, focus on how do
10 we take care of hen.
L1 a But would you agree that all these emails wene nesponsive
L2 to the subpoena that was sent by the committees to the State Depantment?
13 A I could assume that. I don't know the response to that. I
L4 think it is done automatically, so I don't know what they pulled out,
15 but
16 a Last question befone we go back to the minonity on your
t7 documents. In your neview of youn WhatsApp messages, are thene any
18 othen WhatsApp messages between you and Ambassadon Volken, you and
20 A Masha.
27 a Ambassadon Sondland? And Masha?
22 A I don't have WhatsApp with Gondon.
23 a Ambassadon Sondland and who the fourth? Thene was a founth?
24 A Taylon, Volken, Masha and Kent, Geonge.
25 a Okay.
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8 which was anothen, sont of, task I had before all this hit, and then
23 about.
24 A I find one mention of Giuliani, and we can find this email,
25 this is in an exchange with Geonge, who is on the 27th of May, he had
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2L3
UNCLASS I EIED
7 talked to Masha. He was nelaying that to me. She had two asks and
5 wanted us to stand up fon the embassy, because Giuliani did not just
6 name hen and me, that would be Geonge, but denignated the whole embassy.
L4 know, all oven the media denignating oun embassies, which is -- and
15 oun Foreign Senvice officens. And you know, that's not the only place
t6 that that happens.
19 back, so I can be complete. The email that we wene looking fon was
20 the one that Hale sent on Manch 28th to myself copying Geonge saying,
UNCLASSIFIED
2L4
UNCLASS I FIED
4 call to see if we can, what I just nead you. And I'd -- I nesponded
5 that I inquined to C's availability. That was the 28th. And then,
6 of counse, laten that week, we got the message fnom his office saying
7 "no statement. "
9 MR. MEADOWS: Mn. Chainman, may I inquine about how much more time
10 do you have? That may dictate what we do on oun side. Are you all
11 done ?
15 I think we ane 5 on 10 --
MR. GOLDMAN:
20 think we'ne going to just keep oun questions veny limited. I don't
2I want to -- maybe clanify a couple of things. Finst, thank you for youn
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4 the -- he's leaving fon -- that the Vacancies Act aften all
5 that -- to the Vacancies Act, I have used up the time
acconding
18 MR. MEADOWS: Yeah. I'm not nonmally speechless, but you got me.
19 So let me go back to two or three diffenent things. Youn nole
20 night now, the way that you view it ovenseeing the 50 diffenent
2t countnies and going fonwand, you feel like you have fainly clean
22 dinection in tenms of whene you need to be going? And I'11 let you
23 answen that finst.
25 I've testified, this was not something I expected non aspired to. But
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UNCLASS I F]ED
t2 publicly when I said so, what do you want me to do? Engagement is key
13 that the Secretany said, even when we diffen; if you criticize without
L4 engagement,that leads to estnangement, and that's not what we want,
15 so that's pantially why I spent a 1ot of time on the noad.
16 MR. MEADOWS: And you said about 50 percent of youn time on the
t7 road.
18 AMBASSADOR REEKER: It hAS bCCN 5O/5O.
22 genenally I do, not eveny single time, but usually I do. And then,
23 I often will nepnesent him at centain things whene he just can't be
24 every place that ministenials on
25 MR. MEADOWS: So would you say that you stil1 have the confidence
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L of Secnetary Pompeo?
3 MR. MEADOWS: WeIl, since you've been hene today. I think that
4 probably bodes well.
5 So wene you even infonmed by any Uknainian official about a delay
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L gneat call, do you believe that that was meant to be a gneat call fnom
16 said, I just kept going back to the positive, but Mn. President, we
t7 have oppontunities to wonk with this new Pnesident of Ukraine and his
18 team.
20 Sond1and, Secretany Penny, and Senaton Ron lohnson all wene talking
2t about how that this can be a new day for Uknaine in tenms of a new
22 govennment, kind of a neset of the connupt pnactices of the past?
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2t you'ne -- the aid that was neleased on September the 11th and 12th of
22 20J9, actually had a highen pnopontion of that money going towands
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7 fon Ukraine State USAID, and that includes of counse State stuff that's
2 been passed to DOD for vanious militany prognams was $445.7 million.
3 That's a plus-up of oven $30 million fnom fiscaL 2@18. The Javelins,
4 of counse, was something that was new and just unden this administnation
5 that had not been, if I'm necalling conrectly, but it is not something
6 that I was tracking at all.
7 MR. MEADOWS: That's connect, as a defensive weapon?
9 MR. MEAD0WS: And so in that incnease, would you say that pnopen
10 U.S.-Uknaine policy would be to continue with additional defensive
7L weapons suppont going fonwand?
2L Mn. Chainman, fon the necond, I just want to say thank you fon
22 hearing me out you on some of my concenns today.
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22L
UNCLASS ] F]ED
2 may know nothing about the topics I'm going to ask you about, if you
6 it quicken. Duning the time when Secnetany Penny was one of the Thnee
7 Amigos with this pontfolio, did you have any intenaction with him?
9 fnom -- Iet me get this in the night onden. We attended the Thnee Seas
10 Initiative Summit. This is an initiative of central Eunopean
11 countnies that ties in Baltics, BIack Sea, and Adniatic countries
L2 focused langely on energy divensification, and so, the --
13 THE CHAIRMAN: When would that have been?
t4 AMBASSADOR REEKER: That's what I will find fon you. I'm sonny.
22 Secnetany Penny was at that dinnen, and he was also at the dinnen. And
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73 Bunisma, the Bidens, the 2OL6 -- desine to investigate 20!6, did those
74 topics in any of those discussions?
come up
16 It was neally focused on this Thnee Seas and then moving fonwand with
L7 Zelensky. Gee, didn't he seem like a good guy? I think he's on the
18 night tnack from the dinnen.
19 THE CHAIRMAN: So you weren't present fon any convensations about
22 anothen time
23 THE CHAIRMAN: Did Giuliani's name come up at any duning that
24 peniod ?
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7 Bnechbuhl joined us, and I went, which was probably not usual, because
8 I wasn't doing that much on this with them, but they invited me along,
9 and I was in town, I had an oppontunity. So we went oven to DOE to
10 Secnetany Penny's office to kind of follow up.
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The date of that, again?
15 up?
18 people thene. And by that time, Bill Taylon was on the gnound in Kyiv,
25 election ?
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10 was tnying, as he said, I'm going to try to talk to Rudy to get him
7L nefocused on the now, and how we move forwand.
14 Bidens, per se. You know, it was just one of those things it was always
15 out thene, because, of counse, Giuliani was talking about it and the
16 pness was wniting about it all the time. And George too, you know,
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9 nole again, this innegulan nole. And that centainly came up thene.
10 I know at some point. I don't know if it was that eanly she -- but
11 it may have been them talking about having had a real sort of clash
L2 with Gordon, wonds -- wonds wene exchanged, I think. And I just don't
13 nemember the details of that, but it fell into the same categony of
L4 what I'd naised with Hale oven the -- I mean, I guess I had been around
15 about almost 3 months at that point, innegulan nole.
16 THE CHAIRMAN: And did Fiona Hill ask whethen Sondland had been
L7 given a chanten to be one of the leads on Ukraine?
18 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I think that was pant of the question. And
19 "Pr " on, as I know him, David HaIe, the Unden Secretany, focused that,
20 oh, he seems to have that nole. And
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7 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
20 going?
22 we1l, of counse Gordon's going to go, that was -- and then I nememben --
23 a So you
25 from the team that they wene looking now at Secretany Penny, and that
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7 along, being thene with othens. He was always eagen and neady to go
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you speak about what was going to take place
23 in Tononto? What thein message was going to be, that they wene going
24 to speak -- that Ambassadon Vo1ken was going to speak to Zelensky, what
25 he was going to communicate to in that meeting?
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2 Geonge was going. Again, thene had been questions about who might go.
3 At a time, I thought I might go, it was an oppontunity to focus a little
4 mone on Uknaine, but it didn't work in the tnavel schedule, and these
10 of that, I know --
11 THE CHAIRMAN: The confenence was, I think, was JuLy 2nd, 3nd.
13 THE CHAIRMAN: Did he discuss with you aften the confenence what
L4 he communicated to Pnesident Zelensky?
15 AMBASSADOR I will take anothen quick look at oun
REEKER:
16 WhatsApp, but I don't think there wene any othen emails that I don't
20 Zelensky?
23 I apologize. Ane you familiar with the July 10 meeting at the White
24 House between Yenmak, Danylyuk and vanious U.S. Govennment officials?
25 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I've seen nefenence to it. I couldn't tell
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7 that I would have. I don't recall if any of oun guys wene there, on
8 Kunt was there, on Gondon was thene or not.
9 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe they both were thene. But you got no
22 THE CHAIRMAN: No, I'm not asking if you'ne familian with the text
23 message. But do you undenstand what Ambassadon Volken was nefenning
24 to when he said to Yenmak, assuming Pnesident Z convinces Tnump, he
25 will investigate/get to the bottom of what happened in 2Ot6. We will
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7 nail down the visit, date fon a visit to Washington. Do you know what
2 he's talking about thene?
3 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I don't know specifically. I mean, based on
4 all of news neporting now, one can assume, but I wasn't awane of the
5 email or the message.
8 Volken neven told you that he was tnying to get Pnesident Zelensky to
9 commit to President Tnump that he would investigate and get to the
10 bottom of what happened in 2Ot6?
11 AMBASSADOR REEKER: NO.
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L Gondon had a scnipt to move fonwand with Zelensky, but the specifics
2 of that, I was not pant of, no.
5 neithen one even bnought to youn attention that they wene trying to
6 get President Zelensky to commit to these two investigations the
16 AMBASSADoR REEKER: This again is the t4ay 23rd neadout that Kunt
20 THE CHAIRIvIAN: But then you've got this othen channel that you're
2t not awane of, in which they ane seeking to get a commitment fnom Zelensky
22 to do these investigations. Is that youn testimony that you'ne awane
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2 THE CHAIRMAN: And did you have any knowledge of comments made
7 within the office of Geonge and othens, what is holding this up, why
L4 no indication that that was it. Nobody knew, and I -- we kept focusing
15 on punsuing this PCC pnocess because that's the way to get to a neal
16 decision.
77 THE CHAIRMAN: WeII, who naised that concenn that aid might be
20 Geonge was talking about. Subsequently, I've seen the nefenences that
21. Bill Taylon made to that.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: You said somebody contemponaneously had naised
25 would be the most likely penson, as we looked at the, you know, whene
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5 you awane that thene was an effort to get Pnesident Zelensky to publicly
6 commit to doing these two investigations befone he could get a White
7 House meeting? Were you aware of that effort?
8 AMBASSADOR REEKER: I do not necall that specifically, no.
15 different pant of chnonology, but ane you awane that Ambassadon Volken
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24 had told a U.S. Senaton that the aid was being withheld in onden to
25 get Uknaine to commit to investigating matters nelating to 20L6?
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L 17:O3 p.m.l
2 THE CHAIRMAN: MN. GOIdMAN.
3 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
4 a I just have one mone topic. The NODIS cable that Ambassadon
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1 youn pontfolio that goes dinectly to the Secnetany, was not bnought
7 a No, I'm just asking whethen you think it's unusual if you
8 wene not notified of a cable like that within one of youn 50 countries?
9 A it came down and was shared, I'm not sune
You know, whethen
L7 But now, I think f'm pnobably equating what -- what I have read
18 of Bill's testimony that he had met during Ambassadon Bolton's visit
19 to Kyiv on that subject.
20 a But you affirmatively did not know about this cable when it
2t came in?
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7 always
2 a Right.
3 A but I usually accomPanY him.
7 at it. There have been sevenal -- Sevenal tnips, but they ane shont.
8 And I don't have that much actual time with him, but, you know --
9 a Did you discuss the Uknaine-nelated issues with him on any
10 of those tnips?
11 A No. The only time, in Rome, aften all of this happened, we
12 discussed -- at one juncture, I was included in a pne-brief, I think,
13 befone an -- eithen nemarks on an intenview or something, which I'm
1.4 not always, and I -- because I mentioned that thene was a pness repont
15 out that said that -- I said to the spokespeople and the Secretany:
16 You may be asked. There's a press repont that says you asked Volken
t7 to submit his nesignation.
18 And he said: I didn't ask Vo1ken. Volken called me and told me
79 he had to submit his nesignation. And he was veny distunbed and
27 a, you know, he was the guy. He was rea1ly cnucial to oun moving fonward
22 on this path, and now we will have to neadjust that. So --
23 a Did you get the sense that Secnetany Pompeo knew about this
24 innegulan channel with Rudy Giuliani, Ambassador Sondland, and
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4 A no indication.
5 a He neven said -- spoke to you about it at all?
6 A No, sir.
7 a Was this tnip to Rome when the call recond came out and the
8 whistleblowen complaint came out, on shontly theneaften?
9 A That occunned, I believe, the week befone while we wene in
10 New Yonk for the UNGA --
11 a Right.
t2 A -- and the President was thene also. And that is, of counse,
13 when the Pnesident had the Zelensky meeting in New Yonk, and Kurt had
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1 eithen in Italy anound the time that you were thene, on had been shontly
2 befone ?
16 a Did you, pnior to thein annests, had you -- wene you familiar
77 with thein association with Giuliani?
18 A Yeah, thene wene pness reponts, some of those ones that
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1 minority, you said at one point, you said: I've often wondened -- and
2 then you kind of tnailed off and then went to a diffenent question.
3 And I'm just wondening if you nememben what you often wondered
4 about this innegulan annangement?
5 A It was it was innegulan and you stanted neading all of
5 these supposed things, and I've -- I've wondered what was neally going
7 on. How does this all connect?
8 You know, f've seen the outrageous smeans and attacks against
9 Ambassadon Yovanovitch, in panticulan, Geonge, oun embassy, the
13 negandless of party, and being nonpolitical and focused on, you know,
L4 the foreign policy of the United States, and tnying to engage, and
15 suppont oun intenests, negardless of who the President is.
16 So that is centainly a pensonal fnustnation. Talking to -- you
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4 I was within a 3-houn commute of my wife, and now I'm six time
5 zones away. I tnavel 50 pencent of the time tnying to maintain a
6 nelationship between the United States and oun Eunopean pantnens and
t4 gnandfathen, who fought in Wonld War II, would have imagined possible.
15 So, you know, that's what I do eveny day. I go in thene and I
L6 deal with atI of these things. I get on the United plane in seat 42-G,
L7 pray that I can get an upgnade with my points so that I can, you know,
18 fly to Geongia and engage with a bnand-new pnime ministen thene and
t9 establish a nelationship.
20 You know, I have to manage and tny to do this to the best of my
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L2 I do.
13 a Last question. I just want to be sune that we didn't miss
t4 any documents that might be panticulanly nelevant to these
15 investigations.
16 The Biden-Bunisma, I don't know whethen you on youn counsel had
L7 a chance to neview.
18 A Did we find the one email? Yes, this was the one that I
L9 think -- I think I covened this. This is going back to the Masha, tnying
20 to put out a statement Manch 25th, so exactly a week aften I started
2L whene we got the wond from P, the Unden Secnetany's office. At t2:@4
22 "P says no statement."
23 a Right.
24 A That was just somebody that asked fon that and we couldn't
25 find it. I didn't know where it was.
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5 that was him, himself, because his staffen was, again, not sending it
6 to me. He was sending it to the press folks who wene punsuing this
7 cleanance pnocess.
8 a Undenstood. AIt night.
9 A And I said at the top of this I think we talked about
15 I've --
16 THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassadon, I want to thank you fon youn testimony
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