There is a new generation of remote controls about CaBa’s Connected Home research Focuses on
to invade the home. Consumer Marketplace → 7
Featu re s
Home Systems..................................................................................................................................................................................... 11
Remote controls will no longer just control your TV by Cees Links
Large Building Automation........................................................................................................................................................... 13
Dashboards for Buildings by Jim Sinopoli
CO L U MNS
President & CEO’s Message............................................................................................................................................................ 3
CABA Research Briefs........................................................................................................................................................................ 5
Consumer Usage Patterns and Attitudes of U.S. FTTH and Broadband Consumers
Toward a Smarter Grid
Research Viewpoints........................................................................................................................................................................... 7
CABA’s Connected Home Research Focuses on Consumer Marketplace by Rawlson O’Neil King
Ken Wacks’ Perspectives............................................................................................................................................................... 16
CABA’s 2011 Intelligent Buildings Roadmap by Ken Wacks
Opinion..................................................................................................................................................................................................... 19
Building Automation Systems Don’t Save Energy by Bruce Rowse
De pa rtm e n t s
New Members.......................................................................................................................................................................................... 4
Events....................................................................................................................................................................................................... 21
CABA NewsBrief
Please go to the CABA Web site at www.caba.org to
subscribe complimentary and sponsor
editorial advisory Board
Dr. Kenneth Wacks,
Managing editor
Ronald J. Zimmer
editor
Rawlson O’Neil King
Contributors
Ken Gallinger
George Grimes
John Hall
Gail Stratton
association Office
Continental Automated Buildings
Association
1173 Cyrville Road, Suite 210
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K1J 7S6
Winter 2010 3
N e w M e mb e r s
SmartGrid Canada
SmartGrid Canada is a not-for-profit organization dedicated to promoting a more modern and efficient electricity grid for
the benefit of all Canadians. The organization’s goal is to drive innovation and leadership to advance Canada’s smart grid
infrastructure by engaging stakeholders from multiple industries.
Oracle
Oracle is the world’s most complete, open, and integrated business software and hardware systems company. The firm
assists with implementations of smart grid initiatives by offering utility experts, mission-critical software applications, a
rock-solid operational software suite, high-performance servers and storage, and world-leading middleware technology.
A complete CABA member listing with both product and service information and Web links is available at:
www.caba.org
Consumer Usage Patterns and Attitudes of U.S. FTTH and Broadband Consumers
The Fiber-to-the-Home Council conducted a survey of 1,000 FTTH customers concerning the impact of TV and Internet de-
livery via fiber optics. Consumer awareness of FTTH is increasing from 28 percent in 2008 to 41 percent in 2009 of those
surveyed. FTTH is used by six percent of broadband customers in the U.S. Those using FTTH are more satisfied than cable or
DSL customers. The Council claims that deployment of FTTH will encourage telecommuting and decrease energy consump-
tion.
On average, fiber-to-the-home (FTTH) users say they work one additional day from home per month because of FTTH.
This is consistent with most previous years, but less than the 1.8 days reported in 2009. As may be expected, the in-
crease in work from home is not uniform among subscribers. In the study, a total of 12 percent said they worked signifi-
cantly more from home (8.3 more days).
Survey respondents were also asked if FTTH added more flexibility to their work schedule, such as allowing more
flexible hours to avoid rush hour traffic. A total of 24 percent of the respondents indicated that the use of FTTH does
add to such flexibility.
Shop online
Winter 2010 5
caba research briefs
The transition to a fully implemented smart grid brings a host of benefits to a wide range of constituencies.
• Grid operators will enjoy a quantum improvement in monitoring and control capabilities that will, in turn, enable
them to deliver a higher level of system reliability, even in the face of ever-growing demand.
• Utilities will experience lower distribution losses, deferred capital expenditures and reduced maintenance costs.
• Consumers will gain greater control over their energy costs, including generating their own power, while realizing
the benefits of a more reliable energy supply.
• The environment will benefit from reductions in peak demand, the proliferation of renewable power sources, and
a corresponding reduction in emissions of CO2, as well as pollutants such as mercury.
To put a number to these benefits, the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) has estimated that an investment of
$165 billion in smart grid technology, integration and development will produce between $638 billion and $802 billion.
That implies a cost-benefit ratio of between 4:1 and 5:1.
The connected home has been defined as a living space Industry Members Rating of Consumer Readiness
that allows people to manage all aspects of their homes for the Connected Home
in convenient ways.
Connected homes typically include automation, con- 56%
nection of home electronics and appliances, both within
the home and over the Internet, wireless networking, en-
tertainment, and energy conservation with remote moni-
33%
toring.
Connected homes can also perform operations such
as controlling lighting, heating, air conditioning and se-
9% 2%
curity systems.
Generally speaking, members of the connected home Completely Almost Not very Not at all
ready ready ready ready
industry believe the consumer market is on the cusp of en
mass adoption of technologies related to the connected
home. Consumer’s Rating of their Own Level of Awareness &
Right now, manufacturers and service providers are Interest in the Connected Home
developing connected home products and services. In Top 3 Box on 10-point Scale
Winter 2010 7
research viewpoints
50%
Never will
Adopt
27% Will Adopt
73% 25%
12% 13%
search on behalf of CABA to help the organization’s of consumers believe they will at some point adopt con-
member companies within the connected home sector nected home technologies, many do not expect that they
identify, select and develop technology options to satisfy will be using them in their homes in the near future.
future service, product or operational needs. In a large tracking study of U.S. consumers conduct-
The report helped facilitate the identification and de- ed during 2008, CABA asked consumers to rate the ap-
velopment of business opportunities to encourage main- peal of the “connected home.” The results: About one-
stream adoption of connected home solutions and their in-four consumers considered the connected home idea
enabling technologies. Further, the research project was “definitely or somewhat appealing,” essentially the same
formative, as it helped CABA develop its unique, collab- number as in 2005.
orative research model. While interest in the connected home idea seemed
In collaborative research projects, the association stagnant on the surface, CABA noticed that mass market
works to manage projects between multiple partners. consumers, those who typically have a “wait and see” ap-
The organization also acts as an agnostic platform to proach to adopting new products and services, were a bit
ensure that realistic and neutral research results are more neutral and open to the idea than three years ear-
achieved. lier. Early adopters on the other hand, ever quick to grasp
Since 2005, the organization has published a wide the synergies that result from a whole-home system, re-
range of studies on the connected home marketplace. mained as strongly interested in 2008 as they were three
Much of that research has found that while the majority years earlier.
Definitely/somewhat
23% 51% 2% 22% 51% 1%
appealing
Definitely not/
somewhat not 16% 0% 28% 21% 1% 36%
appealing
Source: 2005 and 2008 State of the Connected Home Market Studies. Total sample size Appeal of connected home concept
(n) = 1,800 per wave. Percentages may not add to 100% due to rounding. Source: CABA/Zanthus Home Control White Paper (2009)
The most recent research that CABA has conducted Not surprisingly, consumers continue to expect en-
has found that opportunities to advance home control ergy management systems to deliver on the promise of
and monitoring capabilities as a comprehensive prod- saving money. In a previous CABA survey, four-in-five
uct and service are limited for many manufacturers and expected payback on their investment in a home energy
service providers, but that healthy demand exists for the management system to occur within five years, with just
ability to remotely control all home functionalities, espe- over half expecting it to occur within two years.
cially energy consumption. To meet these ambitious goals, consumers expect
Until recently, consumers have had no viable way to their power companies to help underwrite the costs of
identify energy-wasting devices in the home. That how- needed equipment and improve their home’s energy ef-
ever is rapidly changing, as a number of emerging home ficiency through their own actions.
energy monitoring solutions are rolled out across North CABA research found that consumers view utility
America, in conjunction with smart meters. companies in high regard and find that they are the ones
According to CABA research, there is a substantial that are most engaged by consumers when they require
market opportunity for energy management and con- help managing energy use. Indeed, over one-quarter of
trol products and services. These are systems that track home decision makers look to their energy provider as a
where and when energy and water is being consumed source of energy management products and fewer con-
and products that schedule and control appliance usage, sumers expect brown or white good manufacturers to of-
along with products that allow users to centrally control fer these products.
room temperatures and lighting. Though not covered in CABA consumer studies, in-
These home energy management systems are de- dustry players have told us that consumers want control
signed to provide the consumer and the power company over changes to their home’s energy consumption habits,
with information that they need to reduce waste and and they do not want to just hand total control over to
schedule demand to avoid peak periods, thereby reduc- the utility company via a demand response system. They
ing the need to increase power generation. want to compare their overall energy consumption to
For several high opportunity areas, many consumers neighbors and to similar homes to determine what their
who are dissatisfied with their current energy manage- consumption should be, and learn what steps are need-
ment are willing to pay for improved capabilities, such ed to make improvements. Then, to determine if their
as for programmable lighting controls, eliminating phan- goals are being met, they expect to actively monitor their
tom energy drains, and individual room lighting and tem- usage, at least at first. They want to set a specific ener-
perature control. gy usage threshold only to be altered when it has been
Canadian (n=414)
34% 34%
31%
27%
22% 22%
16%
13%
Your local utility Your energy provider A major appliance Home electronics
company manufacturer manufacturers
Winter 2010 9
research viewpoints
exceeded, and receive month-to-month and year-over- The study was designed to build upon past research
year energy usage comparisons. the organization has undertaken on the connected home.
Consumers also want to have a conversation with Past research found that about one-in-five online con-
their home, without having to learn and remember how sumers considered the connected home concept very ap-
to communicate with each individual device and system. pealing.
Effectively, consumers want to ask their home: What The first phase of the study determined the cur-
temperature is the house set at during the day? Or does rent state of the connected home solution marketplace
the furnace need maintenance? Or will the lights come through an environmental analysis that considered sales
on when we’re on vacation? They then expect answers and other key trends.
and immediately implementable solutions. The second phase was focus groups in three cities to
After five years of conducting market research, CABA uncover unmet needs in the connected home space.
has found that there is a gap between consumer percep- The third phase consisted of a consumer survey of
tions of how home technologies should work, and ap- 2,000 North American homeowners designed to deter-
plications offered by product and services providers. mine consumer needs and to find primary drivers for
Through its research, however, the organization has been consumer adoption.
actively working with its members to close this gap, by The fourth phase involved the exploration of existing
examining consumer value propositions, price points and sources of information, including articles, industry pub-
determining consumer return on investment. CABA has lications, trade statistics, financial reports, syndicated re-
even undertaken early stage product and service research search and interviews with industry players, with an aim
and development through pilot projects. to integrate past research with the information learned in
CABA has been engaged in such research since 2006, the first three phases of the study to create a vision for the
when it integrated the operations of the Internet Home future.
Alliance. The Internet Home Alliance was a cross-in- The Roadmap’s research quantified current business
dustry network of leading companies conducting collab- levels and identified the key players within the connected
orative research to advance the connected home market. home space across multiple segments. Additionally, the
Founded in 2000, the Alliance provided its members with project identified and prioritized consumer needs in the
the real-world testing opportunities required to bring connected home space by pulling together past connect-
their home technology products and services to market ed home research and converging it with new research
more quickly, successfully and cost-effectively. to develop a concise vision of where all the segments are
Under the new arrangement, IHA’s collaborative re- headed. The research also identified new potential areas
search program was continued under the CABA umbrel- for future research.
la through CABA’s Connected Home Research Council, The Roadmap research project examined the fol-
which oversaw a wide array of consumer research studies lowing market segments: safety, security, health, energy
and real-world pilot projects. In 2010, CABA’s collabora- management, monitoring, entertainment and home con-
tive research evolved and expanded and the Connected trol and automation.
Home Research Council was transformed into the CABA The study was funded by Bell Canada, Best Buy, Stan-
Research Program, which is directed by the CABA Board ley Black & Decker, Direct Energy, Hydro One Networks,
of Directors. The CABA Research Program’s scope now Microsoft Corporation, Moen, Ingersoll Rand/Trane,
includes market research for both large building technol- TELUS and Whirlpool Corporation. The research was
ogies and home systems. undertaken by Parks Associates, POCO Labs and JLA
The Program is scheduled to undertake two large Strategic Research.
landmark studies per year, and the first is its most recent The research has been released to these funding part-
consumer market study that examined all aspects of the ners and will be made available for purchase to the rest of
connected home marketplace. CABA’s “Connected Home the industry after an embargo period. Companies enquir-
Roadmap 2010” project was a large-scale study created ing for details and pricing can contact John Hall, CABA
to provide insights into consumer attitudes concerning Research Director at hall@caba.org or 613.686.1814 x227.
technologies, value propositions and future market adop-
tion.
Rawlson O’Neil King is CABA’s Communications Director.
There is a new generation of remote controls about to in- ment, automation, security, HVAC, power use control
vade the home. and management and health monitoring.
Instead of using decades old “point and shoot” infra- By using the ultra low-power 802.15.4 wireless tech-
red beams to provide a connection between the remote nology, a wide range of low data rate devices and sensors
and the device being controlled, the new generation of can either directly or indirectly talk to and are managed
remotes are using RF or radio frequency. Actually to be by the remote control. The cable companies and service
more precise, they will be using what is known as ZigBee providers would like to see their set-top boxes, managed
RF4CE. Similar to Wi-Fi, it provides many of the same by the remote control, become the centerpiece of the new
wireless networking capabilities with much less power smart home with all the homes systems flowing through
requirements. it. The home mobile dashboard then monitors and con-
RF4CE, Radio Frequency For Consumer Electronics, trols all the systems via the set-top box. Another advan-
was formed by four of the top consumer electronics man- tage of using the set-top box as the central base station
ufacturers in the world: Panasonic, Philips, Samsung and is its Internet connection to the cloud which enables the
Sony. In 2009, the RF4CE group was adopted by the Zig- homeowner to remotely access and control the home’s
Bee Alliance and the new ZigBee RF4CE standard was systems via any mobile device including cell phones.
inaugurated.
The ZigBee Alliance then fine-tuned the ZigBee RF- New Features and Capabilities
4CE standard to transform it into more of a total home The new GreenPeak powered ZigBee RF4CE remote
media experience. In addition to controlling all the control also delivers a variety of exciting new functions
home’s media equipment such as TVs, stereos, DVRs, and capabilities. As it is using an ultra-low power wire-
DVD players, etc., this now includes a smart automated less network, its power draw is almost negligible which
home theater experience. makes the device essentially maintenance free.
When you insert a DVD disk into the player, the play- By using ZigBee RF4CE, it is possible to build remote
er then talks to the entire home via wireless connections. controls that never need to have their batteries changed
The TV automatically switches to the DVD input mode, or recharged.
the remote switches to DVD control mode, the room Aside from the obvious great reduction in batteries
lights dim and the curtains close. You are ready to watch and their load of heavy metals and toxic chemicals, this
your favorite DVD. means that manufacturers are finally freed from the need
In addition to being smart, the new GreenPeak en- to include battery compartments with battery lids.
abled, ZigBee RF4CE remote control can function as the Most people, especially those with kids, have had the
“home mobile dashboard”, connecting home entertain- experience of broken battery lids, which means wrapping
Winter 2010 11
HOME Systems
the remote with rubber bands or duct tape. Even more include a small display on the remote that let you see
exciting for the manufacturers, without the need to ac- what effect you are having on your TV set or DVR. You no
commodate batteries and battery compartments, is the longer have to watch your TV screen to see what station
ability to design remote controls in exciting new form you are tuning into, what shows you are programming to
factors and shapes. record. All that info can be available on your remote’s dis-
play.
No more aim and shoot By using low resolution still image grabs transmitted
As ZigBee RF4CE is a radio technology, it transmits to your remote control, you could see who is ringing the
through walls, furniture, and people. You no longer have buzzer at your front door without getting out of your easy
to carefully aim your infrared (IR) remote at a tiny target chair.
on the front of your DVR or TV set. ZigBee RF4CE re- Your remote control will also be able to monitor your
mote controls can manage your entertainment and home home’s climate control settings, power management, and
systems from anywhere in the home. indicators for windows and doors, determining whether
This enables homeowners to hide away their control they are locked or unlocked. The remote control will also
boxes. No longer does the set-top box or DVR have to be determine whether someone walking around outside,
out in the open, available for control. These boxes can or whether someone is tampering with an upstairs win-
now be hidden away in cabinets, in shelves or even in the dow. All of these security sensors could be accessed via
attic. the remote control’s display. By using ZigBee’s RF4CE’s
interactive capability, you could even remotely lock the
Interactive: ZigBee RF4CE Remotes Provide Two unsecured windows. And as this is an ultra-low power
Way Communication network with minimal energy draw, homeowners won’t
Maybe the most exciting capability of ZigBee RF4CE have to change the batteries on these remote security
remote controls is their interactive features. This can sensors every year.
• continued on page 20
Winter 2010 13
large building automation
do so based on their visual design. Visual design is much points, the time to scan and quickly pick out the blue data
more than nice graphs and spreadsheets. It involves how points would be about the same.
human beings perceive and act upon visual information, Our perception of color is relative and dependent on
a science in the realm of “human factors” and “cognitive the color or context that surrounds the colored object,
psychology”. Although this may sound like you’ll need a so selecting the color of the object and a contrasting and
PhD to understand it, it actually is somewhat intuitive. consistent color for the background is important. There
It all starts with something known as “pre-attentive are variations of the use of color as a pre-attentive means,
variables”; these are the attributes of the dashboard that such as color hues, brightness and color saturation.
humans subconsciously pay attention to before they
consciously know they are paying attention; thus pre- Shapes and Sizes
attentive attributes. This innate perceptual and cogni- Shapes are also a pre-attentive variable that like color can
tive capacity to pay attention unconsciously evolved in assist the user in quickly differentiating data sets. The
human centuries ago. So if you’re designing a dashboard size of a shape may be used to convey quantities or mag-
to quickly display information, you take into account the nitude. Enclosing a set of data in a border or using icons
pre-attentive variables to essentially get the user’s atten- to provide meaning or draw attention are also positive
tion before they know they’re paying attention. Here are uses of forms and shapes.
a couple of the major pre-attentive variables:
• Orientation • Line Length • Line Width
Industry Examples
Here are a few industry examples of well-executed building and energy dashboards:
This is a Demand Response dashboard EnerNOC created in 2009. It’s one screen
with the most important information in the most-emphasized screen position.
Viewers can also interact with the dashboard to calculate and change timelines.
Lucid Design is best known for their work in higher education and this dash-
board addresses electrical use in a dormitory. Note the positioning, the colors,
the user options and the clarity.
Part of the IBS Intelligent Building Interface System (IBIS®), this module pro-
vides you with real-time data and LEED Point information based on power me-
tering sources (gas and water optional), as well as pre-selected key performance
indicators for your enterprise, site, buildings, systems and equipment. 3-D is op-
tional.
Winter 2010 15
Ken Wacks’ Perspectiv es
Frost & Sullivan analyzes new market opportunities for trends in building design and operations. Among these
corporate growth with research in technology, markets, factors are:
economics, corporate best practices, training, custom- • The push for an electric smart grid to enhance
ers, competitive intelligence, and corporate strategy. The reliability and security by integrating IT with the
company was founded in 1961 and now has more than electric grid.
1,800 industry consultants, market research analysts, • The U.S. publication of the NIST Framework and
technology analysts, and economists operating from Roadmap for Smart Grid Inter operability Standards
more than 40 global offices. in January 2010.
The Steering Committee participated in many tele- • Electric utility investigation of demand response
conferences in 2010 to plan the project and to review in- technologies for buildings.
terim results. A meeting was held last November at Frost • Water conservation goals for buildings.
& Sullivan in San Antonio, Texas to discuss the contents • National goals in some countries for reducing
of the final report. Each Steering Committee member had greenhouse gas emissions, including carbon dioxide
the opportunity to submit written comments for improv- reduction initiatives.
ing the report. All comments were thoroughly reviewed • Programs planned for energy labeling, mandatory
and addressed in a formal “resolution of comments” pro- compliance with energy guidelines, and certifications
cedure to produce the final report. for building performance.
Winter 2010 17
K en Wacks’ Perspectives
Building automation systems (BAS), otherwise known the building at a temperature that generates the least
as building management systems (BMS) or direct digital amount of complaints, no matter what.
control (DDC) systems don’t save energy. But their op- In some cases the energy implication of this are like a
erators can. pilot flying from Melbourne to Brisbane via Alice Springs
A BAS system will often cost the equivalent of around to avoid a bit of turbulence, rather than making intelli-
one year’s worth of energy bills. But unless it is well oper- gent small deviations to the direct Melbourne – Brisbane
ated it may never pay itself off. route to minimize discomfort to passengers.
BAS systems are complicated. In this respect they are And if you’ve outsourced the management of your
similar to a jet airplane. But unlike airline pilots, in far too BAS, are you auditing the performance of your contrac-
many cases the operators of the BAS systems have little tor? How do you know your BAS contractor is operating
or no experience, minimal training, and often very little your building for high-energy efficiency? The contractor
time to operate it. doesn’t pay your energy bills – and again may end up with
You wouldn’t buy a jet airplane without having appro- the sole focus of keeping the building at a temperature
priately trained and experienced pilots to fly it. But far that minimizes complaints, without necessarily consid-
too often organizations buy BAS systems without making ering the increased energy consumption that this may
the necessary investment in the people who operate it. cause. One of our customers has us auditing their con-
Unlike airplane pilots, where serious mistakes can be trols on a regular basis, and we rarely fail to identify valu-
fatal, if the BAS operator makes a mistake the chances are able energy savings because of wastage caused by short-
very few people, if any, will know about it. Your build- cuts taken by their contractors.
ing won’t crash and burn if the operator manually over- Also unlike an aircraft, when an alarm is raised by the
rides a time schedule and leaves a large fan running all system, the chances are that it will be ignored, particu-
the time. (I haven’t seen a BAS system yet where fans that larly if there are dozens or even hundreds of alarms going
should be on a time schedule have had their schedule by- off every day, which is the norm rather than the excep-
passed.) tion in larger BAS systems.
In many organizations, with energy costs equaling And unlike a new jet, the chances are that your brand
one percent or less of total operational expenditure, the new BAS system may not have been correctly commis-
chances are that the accountant won’t be watching to en- sioned. For example, one or more sensors could be in
sure that any savings put forward in the business case for the wrong position and thus giving erroneous readings.
installing the BAS are actually achieved. Usually the only An example is a recent customer’s building where the
thing that everyone will know about, and have an opinion building manager couldn’t figure out why the system was
on, is the temperature inside the building. In response to running on 100 percent outside air most the time. After
this many BAS operators do everything possible to keep a great deal of investigation, it turned out that the CO2
Winter 2010 19
opinion
air quality sensor was positioned in a copier room which not just spending all their time dealing with alarms. Bring
had no mechanical ventilation and was thus reading too in experts to help configure the system and review it on a
high, with the result that the system was running on 100 regular basis if necessary. Or else outsource management,
percent fresh air - at huge energy cost - to try and reduce but with clear performance targets and regular audits if
CO2 levels. necessary. Only then will the investment in your BAS re-
sult in energy savings.
To get the most from you BAS system, invest in the per-
son who runs it. Make sure they know the principles of
energy efficient HVAC and building operation. Make sure Bruce Rowse is founder of CarbonetiX, an Australian firm that
they are well trained in operating your system. Set energy assists organizations in cost-effectively reducing energy use,
performance targets and monitor them. Make sure they emissions and energy bills.
have enough time to actively operate the system and are
Home energy management is an interesting new your favorite sporting event is about to begin or that your
development. Imagine being able to view your home’s bid on the TV shopping channel was accepted. Your ap-
energy consumption on a pliances could talk to you as well. You are out of beer and
single graph and then re- you need to go shopping. The load of clothes in the dryer
motely turn on and off the is done and needs to be folded!
various appliances. Turn In 2011, the first ZigBee RF4CE powered remote con-
off the AC upstairs and trols and TV sets will be hitting the market. At first, they
watch the home power won’t feature the full feature set but within a short time,
consumption decrease. it will be possible to control your entertainment system,
Turn on the outside light- your home and maybe your world, from the remote in
ing system and watch the your hand.
power consumption tick
upwards. It could be fun It is no longer “just” a remote control.
to be green.
Other cool interactive fea- Cees Links is CEO and Founder of GreenPeak Technologies.
tures include “find me” energy consumption on a single graph and then remotely turn on
and push messaging. Have and off the various appliances. Turn off the AC upstairs and watch
you ever lost your remote the home power consumption decrease. Turn on the outside
control? Press the new lighting system and watch the power consumption tick upwards.
“Find Me” button on the It could be fun to be green.
TV set or set top box, and
your “lost” remote can
start buzzing, flashing or
playing your favorite song,
making it easy to find.
GreenPeak’s “Find Me” application
for remote controls, TVs and set Push messaging enables
top boxes makes it easy to find lost your TV and entertain-
remotes, no matter where they are
hiding. ment system to talk to you
- to send you alerts that
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