Australian Broadcasting Corporation

TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT

LOCATION: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1863684.htm

Broadcast: 05/03/2007

Interview with Kevin Rudd

Reporter: Kerry O'Brien

KERRY O'BRIEN: Labor leader Kevin Rudd joins me now. Kevin Rudd, if, as a general
proposition, there's no such thing as a free lunch, there's definitely no such thing as a free
dinner with Brian Burke, is there?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, as I said quite some time ago now, last week, Kerry, I made an error of
judgment when it came to those meetings and that dinner with Mr Burke back then and, with
the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I wouldn't have done it. I've accepted responsibility for that
and said I made a mistake. It would be interesting if the Prime Minister would accept
responsibility for some of the mistakes he's made over the years as well.

KERRY O'BRIEN: If you are as experienced and as ethical as you would like us to accept,
how did you allow yourself to be in this man's company, let alone to be seen in his company?

KEVIN RUDD: As I explained the other day, a long standing friend of mine is Graham
Edwards. We entered Parliament together. He's a Vietnam War veteran, when I go to Perth I
stay with him. He asked me to meet for coffee and breakfast with Mr Burke and my view and
it's a mistaken view was simply that any person, a white collar criminal who's done a crime
and done their time, they should be readmitted to society. It was a mistake, I accept that.

KERRY O'BRIEN: This wasn't just the fact that he served time in jail, was it? It was the
smelly history of WA Inc and its lingering aftermath. Questions of judgment, it is a question
of your judgment, isn't it you heard the Prime Minister say again today you aspire to the
highest office in the land, you need sound judgment for that office?

5.KEVIN RUDD: Well, as I said, I'm old enough and ugly enough to admit when I got
something wrong, and I think it would be good if Mr Howard would do that on other great
questions of policy across the country, the Iraq war, children overboard, the whole question of
$300,000,000 worth of bribes being paid to Saddam Hussein all on Mr Howard's watch, and
no one ever having to fall on their sword. But I need just to say this, Kerry, on the core charge
of Mr Howard against me, which is this, that I asked Mr Burke to support me to remove Kim
Beazley from the leadership of the Labor Party and for me to replace him that is absolutely
false. I mean, let's just get real about this. Mr Burke has been a life long supporter of Mr
Beazley, fact one. Fact two, Graham Edwards, my friend, a continuing life long supporter of
Mr Beazley until the very end of last year. If Mr Howard's thesis is real, let's be honest about
this - this is nearly a year and a half before the ALP leadership ballot at the end of 2006. And,
by that stage, I've got to say, if Mr Howard's argument holds any water, or Mr Costello's, if
Mr Burke is so central to all this, why am I not meeting him regularly during the course of
2006? It doesn't stack up, nor does his allegation that I owe Mr Burke some debt or some
obligation. I mean, for goodness' sake, I didn't ask him for money. There was no fundraising,
no business proposition, nothing of that sort whatsoever. Do I need a business lobbyist in
Perth? I could walk into any business I like in Perth, that wasn't the case.

KERRY O'BRIEN: He wasn't just a business lobbyist. He was very, very influential within
the Labor Party and the issue of Kim Beazley's leadership was around at that time. I just
wonder whether, in all of these meetings and, particularly, the dinner with Brian Burke and
others, you say the question of leadership, you don't recall the question of leadership being
raised. Surely it would have been a perfectly natural thing for anyone at that dinner, including
yourself, to have said, "How do you think Kim's going?"

KEVIN RUDD: Look, what I said the other day was there was a general conversation about
national politics, right across the table. That's as you would expect on an occasion such as
that.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But can you rule out that the issue of Kim Beazley's leadership, that is,
how he was travelling as leader, was raised or not?

6.KEVIN RUDD: What I've said, I can't recall that. But I've also said that it's quite possible
that those sorts of questions were raised. But on Mr Howard's core charge, which is this, you,
Kevin Rudd, were obtaining from Mr Burke his support to remove Kim Beazley as leader of
the Labor Party and for you, Kevin Rudd, to replace him, that is an absolute falsehood, and
Mr Howard knows it. And his other charge, by the way, which is that I've been engaged in
some sort of cover up I mean, for goodness' sake, these questions were asked to me by the
'Australian' newspaper in November last year, and on the record of the national daily is
plainly printed that I've said there that I had meetings with Mr Burke. Now, if Mr Howard and
Mr Costello thought it was such a crushing matter of national principle, why did they not
raise it then? Three weeks after that, I became the leader of the Labor Party. Why didn't they
raise it then? I'll tell you why they're raising it now. It's because there is a mood for political
change in this country. Labor has been up in the polls in recent times, they are worried and
they've decided to use the high office of Prime Minister to run a personal smear campaign
against yours truly to take some paint off us, and I predict they will.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Do you absolutely rule out, or do you acknowledge, that leadership was
an issue at the time you went to Perth and had that dinner with Brian Burke? And do you
totally rule out that your own ambitions for leadership, whether in the next six months or 12
months, were in your mind?

KEVIN RUDD: I've got to say, this is virtually 18 months later that the leadership ballot for
the Labor Party is called. I mean, the bottom line is this, in those sorts of discussions about
general politics where you've got 20 or 30 people around the table, there's lots of to ing and
fro-ing. I can't recall all of that. I mean, you go to dozens of such meetings, boardroom
luncheons around the country, where national politics is discussed and I can't say to you
precisely what occurred in every part of the conversation.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You've got a pretty good memory about most things.

KEVIN RUDD: If I asked you what was discussed at a dinner you attended 18 months ago -

KERRY O'BRIEN: But I'm not you.

KEVIN RUDD: I understand that, but it's just a human element. All I'm saying is, Mr
Howard's core charge is that I have used Mr Burke to get his support to remove Kim Beazley
and for me to replace him and I owe him, therefore, a debt of obligation and that I sought to
cover that up, is an absolutely, rolled gold falsehood and Mr Howard in his conduct of this
political smear campaign is worried about one thing - that is, conducting the next election on
the basis of alternative policies for the future.

7.KERRY O'BRIEN: Looking at the political mood prevailing around the Labor Party at the
time you went to Perth, on August 1 the 'Age' had a story which raised the question, well, it
actually said, "Kim Beazley appears doomed. The ALP is wondering about Bob Carr." The
'Australian' on July 31, "Beazley's road looks even rockier." And in fact on August 1, on that
same trip to Perth, you addressed a lunch, according to a story in the 'Sydney Morning
Herald', "Labor's ambitious foreign affairs spokesman, Kevin Rudd, has set out his economic
vision, sought to lay down the values shaping the party's approach to policy, continuing an
image broadening program which could rekindle speculation of leadership ambitions."

KEVIN RUDD: I think for a long, long time, Kerry, many people in the media and elsewhere
have described me as 'ambitious'. I don't think that's something which I'm Robinson Crusoe
on in politics.

KERRY O'BRIEN: But is it so far-fetched that John Howard might speculate you might have
been seeking from Brian Burke some patronage as a kind of godfather of the Labor Party in
Western Australia?

8.KEVIN RUDD: That's just so far fetched. I mean, for goodness' sake, you get judged in this
business, politics, on how you perform, how you know your policy, how you convey a
message effectively through programs such as this. You're judged on a whole range of things.
And, you know, being judged on the basis of a dinner round table which involved Mr Burke
and some businessmen and that is going to provide you with some automatic legup into the
leadership? That's just cloud-cuckoo-land stuff. Mr Howard has classic negative politics, the
politics of personal smear, to be on radio in this country on five separate radio programs, I'm
told, around the country today rolling into me on the basis of a smear campaign. How about a
discussion instead about alternative policies for the country's future? He knows he's not
winning that argument. That's why they've flipped the switch to personal smear. And I predict
that'll take some paint off, a fair bit I'd imagine, and it will continue right through to the next
election.

KERRY O'BRIEN: In terms of your judgment, again, you say when you met Brian Burke
over the course of 2005 you didn't know that the WA Labor Premier had put a ban on State
MPs having contact with Brian Burke. But your friend Graham Edwards, who was the middle
man in your meetings with Mr Burke, must have been aware about that ban, he must have
known about that ban. It seems bizarre that he wouldn't have mentioned the ban to you when
he was setting up meetings for you with him?

KEVIN RUDD: Well, he plainly didn't and I think he made that point the other day in his
statement himself, that he didn't alert me to that. On the question of Federal MPs being
included in that ban, the core question

KERRY O'BRIEN: You must think poorly of him for not having told you about the ban?

KEVIN RUDD: I can't make a judgment about Graham. He's a decent bloke.

KERRY O'BRIEN: You can.

KEVIN RUDD: No, he's a decent bloke -

KERRY O'BRIEN: With respect, you can make a judgement. You have to make them all the
time as the leader of your party.
9.KEVIN RUDD: He's a guy who put his life on the line in Vietnam, he's a good bloke and I
took him at face value. I accept full responsibility for my decisions and, therefore, what I've
got wrong, and accept responsibility for it. Again, I go back to the challenge to Mr Howard.
Just once, Mr Howard, take responsibility for children overboard, for lying about the basis on
which we went to war in Iraq and for other critical things such as how we paid $300,000,000
worth of bribes to Saddam Hussein. Not one ministerial resignation. You know why? This
new standard of accountability was invented on the run by Mr Howard in Parliament last
Thursday afternoon with one objective in mind, and that was to target yours truly. Well, I'll
cop that, that's life. But it's just part of a continuing campaign of negative politics.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Very briefly, last question, have you had any phone conversations with
Mr Burke apart from those three meetings?

10.KEVIN RUDD: I've said the other day in the press conference I gave last Thursday in
Parliament, that in the second half of '05 concerning a possible organisation of a meeting with
journalists, that there was some telephone contact at about that time, and that was a meeting I
subsequently or a gathering I subsequently declined to participate in. And beyond that, I've
got no real recollection of any other telephone contact.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Kevin Rudd, thanks for talking with us.

KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having us on the program, Kerry.

1.Kerry O'Brien: Buruh Kevin Rudd pemimpin bergabung sekarang. Kevin Rudd,
jika, sebagai proposisi umum, tidak ada hal seperti makan siang gratis, ada pasti ada
hal seperti makan malam gratis dengan Brian Burke, apakah ada?

2.Kevin Rudd: Yah, seperti yang saya katakan beberapa waktu yang lalu sekarang,
pekan lalu, Kerry, saya membuat kesalahan penghakiman ketika datang ke
pertemuan-pertemuan dan makan malam dengan Menteri Burke saat itu dan, dengan
manfaat dari belakang 20/20, Saya tidak akan melakukannya. Saya telah menerima
tanggung jawab untuk itu dan berkata saya melakukan kesalahan. Akan menarik kalau
Perdana Menteri akan menerima tanggung jawab untuk beberapa kesalahan yang dia
dibuat selama bertahun-tahun juga.

3.Kerry O'Brien: Jika anda adalah sebagai berpengalaman dan etika seperti yang
Anda inginkan kita untuk menerima, bagaimana anda membiarkan diri anda berada di
perusahaan ini manusia, apalagi harus dilihat di perusahaannya?

4, Kevin Rudd: Seperti yang saya jelaskan hari lain, seorang teman lama berdiri saya
adalah Graham Edwards. Kami masuk Parlemen bersama-sama. Dia veteran Perang
Vietnam, ketika saya pergi ke Perth aku tinggal bersamanya. Dia meminta saya untuk
bertemu untuk kopi dan sarapan dengan Bapak Burke dan pandangan saya dan itu
pandangan yang salah hanyalah bahwa setiap orang, seorang penjahat kerah putih
siapa yang melakukan kejahatan dan dilakukan waktu mereka, mereka harus diterima
kembali ke masyarakat. Itu adalah kesalahan, saya menerimanya.

5.KEVIN Rudd: Yah, seperti yang saya katakan, saya cukup tua dan jelek cukup
untuk mengakui ketika aku sesuatu yang salah, dan saya pikir itu akan baik jika
Howard akan melakukan hal itu pada pertanyaan besar lainnya kebijakan di seluruh
negeri, perang Irak, anak-anak laut, pertanyaan seluruh senilai $ 300.000.000 mata
uang suap dibayar untuk Saddam Hussein semua menonton Howard, dan tak seorang
pun harus jatuh pada pedang mereka. Tapi aku butuh hanya untuk mengatakan ini,
Kerry, atas tuduhan inti Howard terhadap aku, yang ini, bahwa saya meminta Menteri
Burke untuk mendukung saya untuk menghapus Kim Beazley dari kepemimpinan
Partai Buruh dan bagi saya untuk menggantikan dia bahwa benar-benar salah.
Maksudku, mari kita hanya mendapatkan nyata tentang hal ini. Menteri Burke telah
menjadi pendukung hidup yang panjang Mr Beazley, fakta satu. Fakta dua, Graham
Edwards, teman saya, seorang pendukung kehidupan terus panjang Mr Beazley
sampai akhir tahun lalu. Jika tesis Howard adalah nyata, mari kita jujur tentang hal ini
- ini hampir satu tahun setengah sebelum pemungutan suara kepemimpinan ALP pada
akhir tahun 2006. Dan, dengan tahap itu, saya harus mengatakan, jika argumen
Howard memegang air apapun, atau Mr Costello, jika Menteri Burke sangat penting
untuk semua ini, mengapa aku tidak bertemu dia secara teratur selama.

6.Kevin Rudd: Apa yang saya katakan, saya tidak bisa ingat bahwa. Tapi aku juga
mengatakan bahwa hal itu sangat mungkin bahwa orang-orang macam pertanyaan itu
muncul. Namun pada muatan inti Howard, yang ini, Anda, Kevin Rudd, telah
memperoleh dari Menteri Burke dukungannya untuk menghilangkan Kim Beazley
sebagai pemimpin Partai Buruh dan untuk Anda, Kevin Rudd, untuk menggantikan
dia, yang merupakan dusta mutlak, dan Howard tahu itu. Dan itu lain biaya, dengan
cara, yaitu bahwa saya telah terlibat dalam beberapa jenis menutupi Maksudku, untuk
kebaikan 'sake, pertanyaan-pertanyaan ini diminta kepada saya oleh' surat kabar
Australia pada bulan November tahun lalu, dan pada catatan harian nasional jelas
tercetak bahwa saya telah mengatakan ada bahwa saya mengadakan pertemuan
dengan Menteri Burke. Sekarang, jika Howard dan Mr Costello pikir itu merupakan
hal yang menghancurkan prinsip nasional, mengapa mereka tidak mengangkat
kemudian? Tiga minggu setelah itu, aku menjadi pemimpin Partai Buruh. Mengapa
mereka tidak mengangkat kemudian? Aku akan memberitahu Anda mengapa mereka
membesarkan sekarang. Itu karena ada mood untuk perubahan politik di negeri ini.
Tenaga kerja telah di jajak pendapat dalam beberapa kali, mereka khawatir dan
mereka telah memutuskan untuk menggunakan jabatan tinggi Perdana Menteri untuk
menjalankan kampanye negatif pribadi terhadap Anda benar-benar untuk mengambil
beberapa cat dari kami, dan saya memprediksi mereka akan.

7.Kerry O'Brien: Melihat suasana politik yang berlaku di sekitar Partai Buruh pada
saat anda pergi ke Perth, pada tanggal 1, 'Age' punya cerita yang mengangkat
pertanyaan, yah, itu benar-benar berkata, "Kim Beazley muncul terkutuk. Partai
Buruh Australia bertanya-tanya tentang Bob Carr. "The 'Australia' pada tanggal 31
Juli, "tampak jalan Beazley bahkan berbatu." Dan sebenarnya pada tanggal 1 Agustus,
pada bahwa perjalanan yang sama ke Perth, Anda ditujukan makan siang, menurut
cerita di 'Sydney Morning Herald, "ambisius asing Tenaga Kerja urusan juru bicara,
Kevin Rudd, telah menetapkan visi ekonominya, berusaha berbaring nilai pendekatan
membentuk partai untuk kebijakan, terus gambar memperluas program yang dapat
menghidupkan kembali spekulasi ambisi kepemimpinan

8. 8.KEVIN Rudd: Itu hanya sejauh diambil. Maksudku, demi kebaikan ', Anda
mendapatkan dinilai dalam bisnis ini, politik, tentang bagaimana Anda melakukan,
bagaimana Anda tahu kebijakan Anda, bagaimana Anda menyampaikan pesan secara
efektif melalui program-program seperti ini. Anda dinilai berdasarkan berbagai
macam hal. Dan, Anda tahu, dinilai berdasarkan meja makan bundar yang melibatkan
Menteri Burke dan beberapa pengusaha dan yang akan menyediakan Anda dengan
beberapa legup otomatis ke dalam kepemimpinan? Itu hanya awan-Cuckoo-lahan hal.
Howard memiliki politik negatif klasik, politik pap pribadi, yang akan di radio di
negara ini pada lima program radio yang terpisah, aku bilang, di seluruh negeri saat
ini bergulir ke saya berdasarkan kampanye kotor. Bagaimana diskusi, bukan tentang
kebijakan alternatif untuk masa depan negara? Dia tahu dia tidak menang argumen
itu. Itu sebabnya mereka telah membalik beralih ke pap pribadi. Dan aku
memperkirakan bahwa akan mengambil cat off, sedikit wajar aku membayangkan,
dan akan terus sampai ke pemilu berikutnya.

9. 9.KEVIN Rudd: Dia seorang pria yang menaruh hidupnya pada baris di Vietnam,
dia orang baik dan aku membawanya pada nilai nominal. Saya menerima tanggung
jawab penuh untuk keputusan saya dan, oleh karena itu, apa yang saya punya salah,
dan menerima tanggung jawab untuk itu. Sekali lagi, saya kembali ke tantangan untuk
John Howard. Hanya sekali, Howard, bertanggung jawab untuk anak-anak berlebihan,
karena berbohong tentang dasar yang kami pergi ke perang di Irak dan untuk hal-hal
penting lainnya seperti bagaimana kita dibayar $ 300.000.000 senilai suap untuk
Saddam Hussein. Tidak satu menteri pengunduran diri. Kau tahu mengapa? Ini
standar baru akuntabilitas ditemukan di jalankan oleh Bapak Howard di Parlemen
terakhir Kamis sore dengan satu tujuan dalam pikiran, dan itu untuk menargetkan
Anda benar-benar. Yah, aku akan polisi itu, hidup itu. Tapi itu hanya bagian dari
kampanye politik negatif terus.

10.KEVIN Rudd: Saya telah mengatakan hari lain dalam konferensi pers Kamis lalu
saya berikan di Parlemen, bahwa dalam paruh kedua tahun '05 tentang sebuah
organisasi kemungkinan pertemuan dengan wartawan, bahwa ada beberapa
menghubungi telepon di tentang itu waktu, dan itu rapat atau pertemuan saya
kemudian, saya kemudian menolak untuk ikut masuk Dan di luar itu, saya tidak punya
ingatan yang nyata dari setiap menghubungi telepon lainnya.