Hon.

Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok accounting officer we are going to look at 2006/2007 the issue of National Forest Authority will be dealt with under ministry of water and environment. Committee Clerk: 2.6 domestic arrears Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes accounting officer Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman my response was that the ministrys accumulated domestic arrears are in respect to alternate contribution to international organizations on factual obligations which were not fully paid by the end of the year and for the land acquired by the government including some of ranches that were part of the ranches in the restructuring exercise. The ministry continues to accumulate arrears mainly because of industrial capable commitment that it entered into and which commitments subsists this includes membership to international organizations. Some of the arrears are as a result of running contracts that do not determine at the close of the financial year. Bituary budget cards do as a result of non fulfillment of planed activities; some of the activities may have commenced and may not be easy to get out of. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Have you attached the details of the arrears? Members I think you go this response some time back. Accounting officer: This book has been around Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No we have it

Let us find out is this file different from this? Accounting officer: Which is that I dont know what is in there I have given you some updates on part B pull housing. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So this is the update Accounting officer Yeah its the update of some answers which are already with you because some activity has taken place since but the details of these arrears. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So as members are still looking for the details of the arrears Accounting officer: I think we had put in the annex Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: There are no annexes here Accounting officer: On that one Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No; so we shall take this. Can we take this as our annex? So accounting officer members on page 6 we have seen here you are making adjustments of domestic arrears. What do you mean? You are saying over stated, under stated, under stated, and under stated. Accounting officer:

Can your commission allow me for my PS to assist me? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah-yeah the microphone is there for him he may be of great help. The PS ministry of lands: Thank you Mr. Chairman and Hon. Members Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes go ahead The PS ministry of lands: We shall start with the adjustments of 362,390,045 million this was to do with some tables that were captured under ministry of water after explained so we had also recognized them in our accounts so doing the reconciliation between the ministries that was I identified so we had to adjust our tables down wards by that amount. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So these were sent to water? The PS ministry of lands: Yeah to water Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok Auditors general are you noting it? Cross check as if they are there. The PS ministry of lands:

Then we have that adjustment of 382,635,225 million those were new arrear they had not been earlier captured in the previous year but there are fresh declarations for 2006/2007 so they are treating up position in domestic arrears by that much. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: How do they become fresh and they become adjustment? The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman these were pay exempted relating to the previous years but they had not been captured that was it. So we are declaring them for the first time in that financial year. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So they are not actually in the final account? The PS ministry of lands: Yeah the final account Mr. Chairman and Hon. Members you have heard this since where cases come to us and we subject them from verification. They lead to first transactions we subject them to verifications and they are declared with consultations auditors generals and accountants office so this such a case we included just to give an example was a case of under regulation 82 it includes cases of poor possession. There was some citizen who was supposed to be compensated so that case I was invited to IGG there were some disputes about it until finally after the verification exercise we were instructed to recognize it officially to declare it as arrears for that financial year 2006/2006. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But at that time it was a contingent and now if it is a contingent, a moment it crystallizes it is already a liability for that year. So how does it become an adjustment? The PS ministry of lands:

No such was a contingent yes from the accounting perspective but it hadnt been recognized any where. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No you pick it The PS ministry of lands: Yeah that is why we pick it here Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But you cant pick it under here The PS ministry of lands: No it affects the net worth that it is being picked in this reconciliation of in the net worth. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: May be here we did poor mathematics. The contingent was a liability on the book just as a memorandum now it crystallizes that means now it enters in the books officials. That is the time we recognize it so you debit ok you debit the The PS ministry of lands: But we didnt recognize it as a contingent Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But even if you have not recognized it as a contingent it has surfaced. Ok you were doing it where was it missing before? The PS ministry of lands: In our accounts? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Yes The PS ministry of lands Mr. Chairman it hadnt been brought to our attention. And you know I think the verification process took some time eventually when these cases were verified and they agreed upon that they should be recognized that is why we recognized them in that financial year by debiting payables and crediting results. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Is that normal? Official from ministry of lands: The people who recognized they were supposed to have recognized it but they did not so they got to know and they recognized it. The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman and Hon. Members the time these transactions occurred no accounting treatment was made. They are not even recognized as catchers in contingent liabilities so but eventually when the verification exercise was concluded like the example I gave you the case was referred to IGG, the climates were distributing the figures it is true we should have recognized them as contingent liabilities in the memorandum accounts but that was not done. So accounts 2006/2007 we are faced with this cases what do we do? We passed the relevant entrance by recognizing them as liabilities so we debited the results and credited the payables. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You debited the results? The PS ministry of lands: Yeah Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Have you heard? He debited the results and credited the payables The PS ministry of lands: Yeah Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok let us go ahead we shall see where they are. So now let us go to page16 remember there is attached. So it is attached so we have there the have you seen the statement of memorandum. Accounting officer we can lend you; you may not be having the photocopy in the office. Accounting officer: Thank you Mr. Chairman Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Members are we there? Page16 no page 17. So now we have the opening which is 13.3 billion so where is now the corresponding credit of that one? Yeah this note here would be explaining if the figures were up here but the housing commitments at the beginning includes this; ooh yes-yes you are right you have 12.962 if we subtract yes it is included. Is it the one? Yeah it looks because the figure is different yeah the only thing is it subtracts yeah it is adjusted I think. The end of year was 12.9 now it went up by 13.3 yeah it might be there lets go to the next one the 387 so now lets see how much it would be the difference. The next one The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman you recall the issue of domestic arrears has been a contentious issue when ever we come here and in all our previous meetings there have been directives to sit down

to do the entire reconciliation. I remember the last time we appeared here for 2005/2006 we did submit that reconciliation so some where in the process after all those various adjustments and agreeing on that shows position of the payables in the ministry, it was observed that there was an under statement in our domestic arrear position by 387 million which is indicated there. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So this was the one The PS ministry of lands: Yeah 387 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So do you have the listing of 382 and 387? The PS ministry of lands: Yeah I have the list of 382, 387 is what we have given you that detail 9. whatever billion. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Is 77 there? The PS ministry of lands: Yeah Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So we have now; 72 you have also attached? The PS ministry of lands Which one? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The first one 382 is there?

The PS ministry of lands: 382 the copy is here but you can also on top if look at the first whatever. Yeah- yeah Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Sure 72 if it is there it is ok So auditors general are you comfortable with him. You did it? You have it? Ok So then we go to the next one cash. The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman the next adjustment was understatement of the cash balances for the previous financial year 2005/2006 this arouse out of the fact that there was cheque to that tune of 313 million. This cheque relates to 2005/2006 it was ultimately canceled in 2006/2007 there for affecting the accounts of that year. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That means the cash balances went up The PS ministry of lands: Yeah it went up by that much Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So that means if the cash balance was 2.83 billions that means members the first column up you add 311 so you come to about 3.2 billion. How much did you transfer? The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman we transferred something to do with I think 800 something million let me first check. We transferred 864,651,725 million. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You transferred 800

The PS ministry of lands: Yeah 864 million Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But you are telling us here you transferred 2.7 The PS ministry of works: Ok fine I thought you were asking for the closing balances of that year how much we transferred where the 313 million comes in, 2.7 transfers met in the previous financial years. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes The PS ministry of lands: It was the accumulative figure for three financial years right from 2003/2004, 2004/2005, 2005/2006 totaling to 2.7 billion that was the transfer for the previous years. But the transfer letting to the canceled cheque is embedded in that 800. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So you transferred 2.7 but you had a balance of 2.8 are you seeing it? The PS ministry of lands: I dont see the 2.8 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The end of year balance was 2.8 billion you transferred 2.7 The PS ministry of lands: Yes that is right- that is right

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So that means where is the difference about 100 million? The PS ministry of lands: You will see it when you come to what we transferred in the subsequent financial year it is part of the 864 million. It was mind to do with the NTR which had not been it was on the liven accounts in Bank of Uganda but it has not been transferred so when it is transferred the balance netting the expenditure account. When you look at note 20 page 31 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Note 20 members page 31 is it the one with cash? The PS ministry of lands: Yes You can see the difference between the 2.8 and the 2.7 is 101 which is less to liven accounts in Bank of Uganda. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Do you have the evidence? The PS ministry of lands: Of? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Of the transfer of 2.737 The PS ministry of lands: Yes I do Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

That is good Ok. So are we ok now? The PS ministry of lands: I think so Mr. Chairman Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok members he is saying he transferred all the money So we can go on; the only thing we want is the evidence of 101million. Do you have the evidence of 101 million? The PS ministry of lands: Yes I should be-I should be Mr. Chairman let me ask which evidence is it. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Transfer of 101 million The PS ministry of lands: It is part of that receipt of 864 million. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok. Can you give us the total breakdown of 864 million? The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman if you go back to note 20 I can see we closed with 650 million. Mr. Chairman the section of 864 it includes the cash balances we had in Bank of Uganda in the expenditure account of 642,612,855 million as per note 20. it also includes the cheques that were canceled to a tune of 22, 748,756 million, it also has cheques that went tarred the un presented cheques to a tune of 199,356,616 million shillings.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Cheques went tarred The PS ministry of lands: Yeah Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: 100 and what? The PS ministry of lands: 199,356,616 million shillings Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Cheques going almost going to 200 million you mean the owners had died? The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman I can tell once we ex-patch the cheque that is where we stop. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Somebody can not pick 200 million. Ok accounting officer quickly if you go through we have 650 million the one which he is claiming was bass plus 101 million that is 751 million plus 22 million plus tarred cheques which is 199 million plus 313 million that comes to about 1.85 billion and you took away only 864 million. The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman we have done some double capiting the 313 is already embedded in 642 so when the cheque was canceled the money was reverted back to the savings account. So it is embedded in that 642. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

It is not there we are going to demonstrate that it is not there. You see you are saying balance why we are going to show you that it is not there. Are you seeing you had balance of 7.36 you transferred that, you had balance 642 so it can also be embedded there if it is opening cash. Is it part of the opening cash? The PS ministry of lands: Mr. Chairman I think you can go to page 6 where there is analysis of cash Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes Page 6 We are there; you wanted page 8 we are there. The PS ministry of lands: Yeah Depreciation of movement of cash during the year Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes. It is there so now we subtract 313 so you have 108 million The PS ministry of lands: Of? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So you want me to go through again? The PS ministry of lands: No if you look at this reconciliation here you know out of this 2.8 billion we transferred 2.7 billion there was that cash released in the account of 313 million add the cash to the cash flow statement the actual cash anticipated at the close of that financial year 235.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok-ok, ok members I think you seeing it. So 650 include even the 101? The PS ministry of lands: Exactly Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So now can you give us the details of these stale cheques? Accounting officer we need details of these stale cheques Accounting officer: Yes they are here Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: How many copies do you have? Accounting officer: They are in 32 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So you dont why they went stale Accounting officer: I think we really cant tell Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So members study the stale cheques. Did you have any question Kabondo? So you have reserved it we can go ahead. Alex do you have anything?

Committee clerk: 12.6 The pull housing funds. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman I have given you some loose papers which is replacing what is in that bound summon basically it was showing between when we sent this and now what has transpired in this area and part B one pull housing fund of the response we had given was that it is true the ministry has continuously asked the ministry of finance to do the needful and nothing has yet been done. My ministry has also concerns that this has permanently taken this law. This is the an issue where the ministry of finance was supposed to take the resolution to parliament for parliament to pass that resolution to be able to legalize the collection fund account which was opened in the housing finance company by then Bank now on which profits from sell of housing properties are being collected but since then I include in this issue that really in my view I dont why this query is always being given to me because when you look at the agency agreement which was drawn between the government and housing finance really it is the ministry of finance which is the principal in that agency whom they transact with the housing finance company on this matter. I would have thought that if there is anything that was incomplete their finance should have completed it as its now really ministry of lands housing and urban development doesnt have any role transactional role on this account. It is Ministry of Finance representing government of Uganda so what we have been doing here is following up finance do what they are supposed to do. In my view we should ask finance to do what they need to do to complete that process at a certain time. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Are you sure you dont know anything on that account. Accounting Officer: No, what I am saying is that I dont have any transactional responsibility on the account.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Kamba, Kamba, are you there. There are no statutory instruments on this account as yet for this account. Accounting Officer That is what the quarry is about. It has never come to parliament to be legalized and the query was by the Auditor that was illegal because it hadnt been authorized by Parliament and then the problem was , the minister of finance needed to come to Parliament with a resolution for parliament to do this work and legalise this fund which was open between government and Housing Finance but then again we have been struggling to get finance to do the needful without any particular success. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But, are there civil servants who have got this money for the housing scheme? Acccounting Officer: To get it how? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Because the purpose was to open up an account because when we sell those who have not got should be given. Accounting Officer: That was supposed to open up public servant housing loan scheme which we have not done because again we had a sticking point in that when you make recommendations to do this, we start on the point of interest charging. Ministry of finance wanted market rates and we are saying rarely market rates may require some kind of lower interest rates for public servants so we have been having a long struggle on that one which has really hasnt been solved. But, even as that one in the awaiting even the legalization of the funds itself still hasnt been done.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So, who is managing it? Accounting Officer: It is the minister of finance according to that agreement I have given you. The bank is supposed from time to time giving their accounts of the funds to the minister of finance for us sometimes we go there how much is on the account and they tell us. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: With interest? Accounting Officer: Well, we dont go into those details. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What is the balance on that account? Accounting Officer: 30 bnillion I think that is what capitalized housing finance company to become a bank now. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Then how do you capitalize with workers money? Accounting Officer: They have been giving mortgages now through public servants then to the general public but the scheme which was supposed to be developed to assist public servants who never benefited from the exercise that one hasnt been put in place, putting place hasnt been completed. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You are not a signatory to this account?

Accounting Officer: No. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, accounting officer the idea was all civil servants should benefit those who have the houses should pay then those who pay the money we get should be able to get a house for those who are coming. Now you have defeated the purpose your selves. Accounting officer: No Mr. Chairman I have not because I have gone ahead to propose the scheme. That scheme needs to be approved before it comes in to implementation. One of the elements on that scheme is the interest scale and as I have said I have been stuck on that point for some time. The interest scale because where as the ministry of finance says it should be market we are saying it should not and they are arriving at that point of compromise now is really taken some time but again if we are really to agree on that one they would be moving ahead for the implementation of work because this is now an issue that has been mobilized by our parliamentary opinion. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, I think parliament would not refuse to do this; this thing is over due. So what we want you to do is go and ask minister of finance Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman sorry to interrupt my previous answer was that may be you help us with ministry of finance. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Now you want our help Accounting officer:

Now when I look at the contract and what have you I though you would take the bill and give it to them we dont seem it is our and you are assisting us to solve it. It becomes theirs. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok the committee will take up to get from the PS and the minister the statutory instrument for legalizing this collection fund. Kamba is there any thing you want to say? Hon. Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman in the Public Accountability Act it says Mr. Chairman no expenditure shall be incurred by essential fund except under the authority of the warrant signed by the minister and addressed to a responsible accounting officer. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No this is a special fund we are going to look for a special fund the moment it leaves the consolidated fund any expenditure on that must get the warrant of the auditor general. So auditor general what are you coming up here to say? Auditor general: That what ever expenditure on illegal accounts have not been authorized Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They have been authorized. Hon. Rebecca Atengo: Hon. Chairman I think we have to get back to our house. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah. Accounting officer I think what we are stating is you going to ask them parliament should authorize that account to director. The purpose of that account to be there is to help collections and to help civil servants who are of that scheme not us again to go to the

supplementary to run the same account I think that is the most important think. We are writing to the minister to tell us why there is no statutory instrument, what authority he got to open this account and how he has been spending the money with out the statutory instrument. But also you civil servants are unfair this account is supposed to help you; you should been the ones who should have raised that fund and they are saying there was no parliamentary approval and we were not accessing it. Accounting officer: You know actually when Mr. Sendaula was still in the office he actually brought the resolution to parliament but then I dont what happened. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah there was a resolution but I think he never presented it. This query was even under ministry of works Accounting officer: Yeah that is where he was housing and communication. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Next Yes accounting officer Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman our account at Stanbic is number 1400016610. This account was used to collect evaluation fees from the beneficiaries of pull houses as observed by the audit. It was not possible to avail this information at the time of audit because the function had had not been transferred to this ministry. The function is reverted to ministry of lands housing and urban development in January and the balance on this account as of 30th June is now 22,183,521 million and I have since instructed to close the account and transfer the balance to the consolidated account.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Annex 2 is there You mean our government value is very cheap like this? Because whenever they value they say 0.125% assuming we have got; the other time it was about 50 billion. Accounting officer: 30 actually Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: 30 billions. It should be over 75 million. Accounting officer: This has been a collection account money was being transferred regularly and even it has never been used for this purpose and that is even why we decided to close it because even the evaluation funds when we do dont draw from this account. So account really was just collecting and transferring to the consolidated account it wasnt being used for what it was setup for. It should been drawing many and do the evaluation but it was not used for that it was just a collection account. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So auditor general I think you have to audit this account. So we send this to auditor general to audit all the annexes you gave because they are not transferred so let the auditor general audit them. Hon. Tindamanyire Kabondo: Mr. Chairman I want to ask accounting officer. Do you know accounting officer one of your responsibilities is to ensure proper accountability in all the government accounts in your ministry?

Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman if you go back to a little bit of history this ministry of mind is new it came being in 2006 and it has taken it a long time to settle down and begin to work. It took for example two years for the housing aspect to be cleared what was moving from the original ministry of works housing and communications which broke down to works and transport and this one really was created a new ministry. And because of doing and toiling who is doing what in housing there was no transfer of responsibilities in that area until later say 2009 Jan that is when I was formally handed over the full housing committees and its responsibilities, this is an account under that committee and that when it was handed over is when we started doing what we are saying. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: So you run this Accounting officer: No we are not doing it-we are not doing it. It was still with ministry of works and far as lands is concerned because works hasnt handed it over. Hon. Kabomdo Tindamanyire: Do you see that is it your responsibility as accounting officer? Accounting officer: Yes when it is handed over to me. If and it is handed over to my ministry yes before it comes to my ministry it cant be my responsibility and that handover must be formal. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I think the whole issue which the member is bringing is that you should be aware. Accounting officer: Yeah I understand what he is saying but all I am saying is that I could start taking responsibilities for something that has not been formally given to me.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: This clearly shows governments accounts are understated because this money is not reflected any where in the accounts of government. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman it is true that by 30th June 2007 the starters of the ready accumulated arrears had not been compiled the position was established by 30th September 2008 to be 660,547,251 million and this position by June had reduced to 506,660,956. I have actually because it seems these fellows are not really paying this money like they should so what we have done is to ask the Housing Finance Bank to consolidate this rent arrears with mortgage obligation of these fellows so that this arrears can start earning some interest for government. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But if you are in my house and you dont pay I though I chess you Accounting officer: But then this is government and these are its citizens and it also goes to those social responsibilities. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But no dont they get salary? Accounting officer: Yes I want to assume that they do and there have been repulsions in meeting the obligations so instead of keeping on running after them we have consolidated these arrears with mortgage. So now they will become part of their mortgage obligation and they will also be attracting some interest. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: How do we get it? Rent goes where?

Accounting officer: We are supposed to pay in the same account Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: In the same Bank

Accounting officer: Yeah the Housing Finance Bank Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: This is a very complicated case So now rent we are not so sure. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman I think with this obligation we shall be sure because even what is happening is that some of these properties were being sold to third parties which third parties were even denying the responsibilities but the good thing they hadnt yet taken the possession of titles. So now when you consolidate them with mortgage even the third party who has bought the property will have to pay to get clearance of taking the title. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What about those who took before? Accounting officer: No, most of these guys actually had not. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Because I am told that goodwill now is on Buganda road flats with 200 million

So for us who left early we lost. So you are saying you have mortgage there. So Auditor General is there any thing you can read from that; the only thing is that may be confirm whether this has been merged. Auditor General, Auditor General you confirm to us then. The rate that is has now been part of the increased now the good thing with it now is that we are earning interest on it that means you refuse to pay so it becomes part of your obligation it attracts the interest. The only thing you have to confirm if all these have been now added to the outstanding mortgages Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman out of your observed 261 properties, the beneficiaries in this category at the time of audit 115 of them have since exhibited mortgages but the delay in executing mortgages seems to derive the difficulties individuals have in traversing the procedure of obtaining the title. However, since the function of titling resides in my ministry, it was agreed that Uganda lands commission should play a modern and growing in assisting those processing titles to ensure the speed up of the process. Mr. Chairman the problem here is that we have difficulties which I will admit to and some of the individuals when they are processing titles individually it takes time for them to go through the process of our ministry to get a title and this also locks their process of getting the mortgage. So what we are saying is that we should help these fellows and have land commission deal with these cases in a batch so that land commission would actually be the one to submit them to registration for the titles and then it would charge them an administrative fee. But according to the lands commission they havent sat down as a board to pass it as a board resolution to be able to do that. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Members you have the listing it is there. These are people who have not got the execution but most of these have sold this property. Like this Kololo here, Mpala there I saw it.

Accounting officer: But even then Mr. Chairman still the person who bought that thing needs to execute the Mortgage. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But are they paying the principal with interest as much as they have not executed the mortgage? Accounting officer: They did that that is why have moved down to this stage where now they need to there is a form they fill it, they do the stamp duty and then they go for titling. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So the only thing is titling? Accounting officer: Yes Hon. Tindamanyire Kabondo: Isnt there a situation where a third party comes to ask what is the total figure instead of getting mortgage Accounting officer: It is a possibility but I dont know whether it has ever happened where the third party Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Many have done it Accounting officer: Yeah it happens that would of course oxidize the whole thing that you dont have to go through mortgages he pays the upfront.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So the money is now available to lend? Accounting officer: At a commercial rate Hon. Tindamanyire Kabondo: What percentage is it available? Accounting officer: Of that type? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: All of them this one you are saying they have paid. Accounting officer: It is very high Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: It is very high; this Mpala all in Kololo is gone, this Acassia here. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Any way Auditor General where is our loss here. Let us look at the loss so that we ask the accounting officer to pay. Accounting officer: Let them go to ministry of lands and housing division and see the gentle man called Mr. Lubowa. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

They have never left houses up to now down there you will never get houses at Lubowa they are still there. Mr. Lubowa when are you becoming the PS; he doesnt want with more appeal in houses. Accounting officer these are 178 they are supposed to be 261. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman that list the annex which we have appended there has not been reviewed like I have reviewed these answers so you may find that when you talk about these 115 who now have performed may be some of them are still being indicated in that schedule and we need to leave it and now give you one which now reflects 146. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Let us get clear now; one these people have signed they have not only got titles but they are paying mortgage with interest. Is that true? Accounting officer: I dont know whether they are pay this interest. When they do the commitment and they open up that relationship with the Bank this where unfairness can be made in it because now from the point of view of the buyer because now you start charging him the interest and yet he hasnt even got his tile, he has not even finished the mortgaging processes. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But here we are charging Accounting officer: Of course if it is the point of his own not being responsive to the situation that is it then may be it can be because of our problems. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Accounting officer here the reason is the title whether he has the title or not he has to pay the interest. So we want you to confirm despite the fact that they dont have the title whether they are paying because the title will come eventually. Are they paying? Accounting officer: We need to establish that. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Because we may be not charging them let me give an example I have seen somebody here he was given 55 million in

Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman Can I ask Mr. Lubowa to tell us. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah he should tell us Yeah Lubowa tell us Mr. Lubowa: Mr. Chairman what happens after paying the 8%, Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah go ahead Mr. Lubowa: After paying the 8 % of the whole payment the interest begins to accrue so the Bank computes the interest which has accrued. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

So monthly basis when he deposits the money the thing goes down; they give him the monthly installments. Auditors general confirm that this is what is happening that these people; 1 Are paying the mortgage the principal and the interest every month. If they are not paying the accounting officer you will pay. Accounting officer: But then Mr. Chairman you will find that they may not be paying may be they are waiting until they finish the mortgaging process of getting the title and completing the mortgage. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No. I am saying in Buganda road flat I am giving an example I have got that this flat has been given to me to 20 million. That means I have borrowed my 20 millions I should pay my deposit of 8% then the balance I should pay on monthly basis with interest. If we get that the person is not paying and yet he has the property I will give an example some body may be got a property in 2000 and he has paid 8% he is not paying the interest, he is waiting for the title 9 years down the road the value of the house has changed and him he will say he cant pay. Accounting officer: No, no he cant say that because it is in his terms of engagement that he must pay. That is why I am saying that he may not be paying but he may be waiting to get his title and pay all his Bank Loan when he is now signing the mortgage. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That is ok Members listen; accounting officer help us where is the problem. I have no title but I have got an allocation I have gone to housing finance I have paid may 8% does it mean on my balance of 20 million now they give me my monthly installments? Accounting officer:

No, no it cant happen Hon. Saleh Kamba: I though you will get the title after finishing all the payment. Accounting officer: Yes. And the title is deposited in the Bank. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Auditors General we want you to confirm these people dont have the titles but they are paying their monthly payments with interest ok that is what we want you to confirm and if we find out that they are not paying the accounting officer will be held responsible. Accounting officer: In that case Mr. Chairman I can get the property and sell it to some one else. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But I am advising you in advance to know that the moment we discover that these people are not paying the interest. Accounting officer: Yeah. But Mr. Chairman how do I engage you to pay they have told you to pay how do I engage you to pay. The only penalty I can list upon you is to disposes you from the property. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no we dont have any problem with that no I think you have not got the argument we are saying the moment somebody gets the allocation, he deposits 8% he should immediately start paying the mortgage even if it is in arrears that means he has the obligation but the moment we hear you have not told him the obligation you will be responsible.

Accounting officer: No that is in terms of the letter of offer. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok. Go to the next Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman there we some 95 case that were observed by the auditor that they had actually got the titles but they had not completed to execute their mortgages and by the time now we are responding 80 of them have performed and the full housing commission also recognized this problem and resolved to be more firm with non performing in house fund allocaties. These 15 cases which are still outstanding we have actually disposed them out of these properties. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That is better Accounting officer: No we have actually given them a notice by the end of the month or else we shall take back the property end of July. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: These are the ones in annex you attached Accounting officer: Annex 5 yes Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah if they are not paying

Accounting officer: By the end of this month we shall take back the properties Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But Rugamera died isnt it so? Accounting officer: His estate should have performed Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But is Rugamera there? Accounting officer: Yeah he is there Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The only thing he lost is RDCship. I know him he was a tuff RDC in Bugisu So these one you have told them to perform Accounting officer: Yeah we have told them to perform by the end of this month or else we shall take back the properties. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah if they dont perform I think we need the houses there are many people across who need them. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman Can I go to the next?

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes it is ok You go to the next accounting officer. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman as observed by the Auditors general these condemn year properties; these are condemn year properties whose plans were not ready and some surveys had not yet been done and the deposits were made to secure the interest of their allocaties. Auditors generals fearness was thought obtaining prier of being sold. 250 of these cases have since received they were 343 and 250 of them they received their values and the evaluation Mr. Chairman was delayed by lack of condmnier plans which plans have now being received and they should be getting evaluation of these properties and we are saying that by September we shall have communicated to everybody about the evaluation and we expect you to be there. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But I think the argument is that are we not going to lose the interest as much as I have deposited I have secured the interest. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman, now we gave them offers I think let him explain Mr. Lubowa: What happens in this case the offers were given on the estimated values what was estimated is what would be equivalent say 10% of the property value and these people are supposed to continue paying even the monthly installments of what is estimated to be say the rental value of that property that is what they pay monthly. For instance In Kampala like say Buganda road where some one had got the property he makes a deposit payment say 5 million and then he makes the monthly payment of 300,000/= per month that is how it was done.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So the 300,000/= does it go to the purchase of the property or that is our rent? Mr. Lubowa: Towards the purchase of the property Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: How? Mr. Lubowa: Because we didnt want to lose value You pay a deposit say 5 million then on monthly basis you continue paying 300,000/= that is how it is done. Accounting officer: When you get the evaluation now done the true value of the property will now be established and it will be dehiscent with what ever is it that you have paid and you get the balance. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman what was additive government value? Accounting officer: The additive government value that is evaluation Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Exactly after what was it? Accounting officer: That actually why was saying here that some of these properties had no cadmium plans and there fore the evaluation could not be done the cadmium plans had been delayed.

Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman you what was see he going to do? What was he establishing? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You mean you are just giving detail and whatever and you do nothing? Accounting officer: I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here now first of all if there are cadmium properties lets say that the cadmium property or a unit is different from a flat and average person thinks that a flat is a cadmium unit no it is not. So when the law of cadmium was passed these properties existing were supposed to be converted into cadmium units that conversion depends on two major factors; 1 The land must be resurveyed where the properties are. The survey must take in to the account the cooperation how the owners want to put on that land you know it may be in blocks and two floors one are three. Now three the cadmium plan must be drawn to indicate each unit because the unit on the third floor may also be having a garage on the ground floor and what have you, so all those parameters are just established. When they are established then we value you start getting certain words like unit factor that means that is the proportion of value of land your flat which you call a flat now which we call the cadmium unit has. So the inspections which came in were not final. We move on the ground to see the properties say for example Kiira road there are many units on the ground but they dont have boundaries and they dont have reference numbers we had to go, Naguru this former East African Community flats we went at least we saw we know what they are but not until the details come dictating who owns what space, what factor of value of land he attributes to his flat we cant complete the evaluations. Hon. Kabondo Tidamanyire: What do you mean factors coming in from where? Accounting officer:

No the factors come in when you are surveying you are creating cooperation. The cooperation is that body that is immediately established of the owners of the cadmium units. You are establishing the value of proportion for land per one, you are allocating the outside garages and what have you that one is done by an architect and that is what we call drawing up a cadmium plan because you see those areas especially the government properties having been what they are some of them were not surveyed, some were surveyed and they had been encroached on so the architects could not draw the plans until the land had to be resurveyed that is why consultants will engage to establish that. In fact that process delayed the whole thing even in Nakasero here where we had run the evaluation people again changed their position and created again new cooperation and they increased the number and we have to re-do. So the inspection definitely what we did good enough those which were clear we came out with value, those which were not we gave information to housing to Lubowa say this one go back, this one there is an error, this is this and this and this is what they have been doing and this where the PS has said the plans have started coming in I think yesterday I got some, the Entebbe ones are coming in and those ones in Naguru so we hope we should be able to complete the evaluations with in the next two months. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Mr. Chairman Can he be more specific when he says the tenants changed the cooperation it is not clear to me so that it affects the evaluation? Accounting officer: Lets take an example of Bugolobi if you have four blocks of flats and each one is 32 ok they are sitting on may be one and half acres now when you value them together, then each one of those depending on it size, bed rooms and all that will be having a factor unit in the value of land. Now if you happen to change that one so that the 5 blocks are now divided into two co-operations, you have two on one unit and then three on one unit you have to look back and see how much land are the two take and who is there and how much land are the three taking. So the figure will definitely change and the owners of the blocks know either they want to have more land on their side and fought for the boundary

here instead of here so that is what happens things change you ask them they know why they fight over that instead of two or one or three. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I thought it is simple mathematics Accounting officer: No it is not simple you know they normally fight over land because they are either getting more land or they know bigger numbers are difficult to manage they want to manage their and that. If it was uniform it would be what you are saying but normally what they do is not pro-data there are few things which change on the ground. Hon. Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman. Is your department computer illiterate? Is it computerized? Accounting officer: To some extend we are computerized but depending on what you are asking Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Assuming you have parameters all some body came up and say I have changed to this condominium we have added on another block like lets use the example of Bugolobi. Blocks say 1, 2, 3&4 and now they say they add on 5 to make that cooperation of that group and you have all your parameters dont you think you would just put in all that work? Accounting officer: It is easy that why I have said it is not taking long do you give the information and that is what is coming in. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: But this is 2009 you get it

Accounting officer: Yeah but you are trying to give me a job of the architect the consultant who was surveying, the consultant who was drawing the plans I was not there sir I am telling you I am just receiving the information. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Who employees the consultant and the architect because at that time for us we are concerned that is Lubowa; so he is the one making the government lose the money in the process Accounting officer: It is not Lubowa Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: I am saying we are going to point our hands to you. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The government is also very good is the party in Lubowa Hon. Peter Mutuluuza: Mr. Chairman I think what the member is asking may be is why the consultants who were given this job took all that long to come in with the results of their exercise and that is the question which havent been investigated. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But accounting officer we are not agreeing with the government bowler one you have the condominium you have valued the property our job is to divide the many and start paying why should some people change are they not buying time? Accounting officer:

Yes with your permission you know this is the problem of explanation and people misunderstand the information. We have only one area where that one has happened that is Nakasero he was asking me the factors but the truth of the matter is that the other one did not have their surveys through and the condominium plans drawn through it is now that they are coming. Those ones which came we did that is why you hear others bought and others did not. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Can we find out from you when did this start the issue of properties to be given to the civil servants this one specifically when did it start? Accounting officer: The condominiums? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Lets use example of Bugolobi. How come Bugolobi which was of national housing is almost all through and that one where the government has more interest is so slow to be implemented. Accounting officer: If I may simply say plainly the consultant who was given that job delayed. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Are you trying to suggest that the consultants employed by government are so slow and those employed in private sectors are more efficient? Accounting officer: You may take it that way but that is the truth

You can ask the accounting officer I have talking on this he can answer him self what I want you to note is that I am not delaying any evaluations as soon as they come I do my work.

.. Mr. Chairman like I said that the member wanted to know really why the member had taken time to come out with their work and I was begging the indulgence of the committee that I havent really gone in to the investigation of this completely I could say one or two things but I would be wanting to give you a clear answer why it has taken such a long time I think that is the concern you raised. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah. And accounting officer you should notice values of properties have changed! Now if these civil servants had got those houses the other time the value would be different now the value we are going to attach to them is the current value. Accounting officer: We are already having problems like that actually. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No the evaluation should be now the only person you should take to court is the other one Accounting officer: Why? Mr. Chairman you see when the offer was being given to the buyer was that you have been allocated to this property without value then they give you provisional amount of money to pay as a commitment and then they tell you the value will be given to you after the evaluation. Now if evaluations take such long time by the time evaluation is done after 5 years down the road may the property would have been 20 million you do it 5 years after may be it is now 70 million now this is the value which is actually

communicated to you. Now the value if 70 because you are informed at a time that you will be given the value the true value after evaluation. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Mr. Chairman it is not the question of evaluation only at that time but there is also question of creating payables as far as government is concerned especially people who are making this and whatever and I would not be surprised if you find in the subsequent years the percentage of payables of ministry of lands and whatever will be going up because people who are supposed to be doing work and be paid at that time take so many year in the process will accumulate a lot of work. Accounting officer: It was actually change of the cost of the unit of the property on the payment. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The payment to the contractor Accounting officer: The contractor was ranched he was given contract plans for a number of year and then you find that the problem has been in some instances that even the that had been given to the contractor had not been fully appreciated the extent of the work like in the achievement value I have been telling you some of this land had been encroached up on and these facts were not even known and when you are giving some one work go and value that property he goes to the ground and he actually discovers a lot of difficulties accompanying that property then now he comes back up you find work even becoming bigger because of the issues on the ground which were never appreciated at the time when you are giving him the terms of reference. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman. I still dont understand first of all in fact there are normal procedure of attaining the government property is to look at the value. You can not tell me you went to

offer the government properties with out valuing the property. Why did you rush to sell the government property without determining the value? In fact you are changing the normal procedure of offering the government properties. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman the rationale was to give comfort to the person sitting on the property because the main thing of giving out these properties is you sell it to perceiving sitting tenant that is the regulation to do with housing sells that the person who is occupying that house that public servant has the first call. But now if you are not giving him if you havent got the value and he is sitting on it and you are going through this issue, the money you would actually go away or die some thing like the honorable here was saying and then they would lose that property because some one else will come in it and then the new person would be the one to take it the other person will be dispossessed simply because you hadnt finished these processes so you actually hanker that thing give it to a person who is there then there you start doing his work. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So now the issue is these people are going to be disadvantaged we gave them the comfort to be sure they would be the ones to buy. The disadvantage the will pay the make price. Accounting officer: But it is still not the market rate but it has gone up actually it will be the same value as that time given the values of this properties the considerations. Yeah basically values appreciate over time dispite this financial crunch but the values of today are different from the values of 1990, 2005 are different from in fact I get problems from the allocates when we are giving them new values they are saying they are paying much more than the others but the truth of the matter is the money that was paid in 1990 is more valuable and if you have put it in the account I think it should have accumulated. That two the every moment we talk of the market we talk of the market today we are not going to say ok let us put you to the base of 1990 or 1995 some thing like that so indeed

they will pay more money but we hope they will be understanding that the value today of the money is the value of the money in 2000. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You have made a case because those who paid in 1990 the price is not the same as now the money has also lost value. So we are giving you three months to do the evaluation and finish and then also make sure that market price so that these people if fact this will take care of the interest they would have paid if they had taken the mortgage at that time so this one there is no big issue they should not cry. Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman where as the observations by the Auditor and collectors have returned with the audit, the situation has since then changed and by June last month there were only 7 cases left in this category. You may also wish to know that at its last meeting the pull houses committee sales resolved to repossess such houses that have not had any deposits paid against their allocation. Letters of withdrawal have actually being issued. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But accounting officer you give me an allocation I dont pay that means I am dodging the interest so how are you going to handle such a case Accounting officer: But it is difficult to dodge the interest Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No but I have got the allocation. I dont deposit 3% because the moment I deposit that is when I will start paying. Accounting officer: To fulfill their obligations or else their offers will be evoked. Then he also advised that all those offers no money as yet should be sent a reminder if they are still in the palmers

period to perform within that same period which has been done. The palmers period is over by the time it is over seven cases were still out side. So these seven cases we are taking back the properties. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Allocate to other people. Who are these seven cases? Accounting officer: I dont think we have the names but that appendix I dont think it was updated. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I have seen appendix seven here. Ministry of defense has refused. Accounting Officer: Where? Official from Ministry of Lands The list of 15 I think which you talked about Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But they were 150 not 15. You wrote 15 Accounting Officer: Yeah. They reduced to 15 actually by the time we gave you this document the answer it was 15 that is where I made this update it is now 7. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Is the update here? Accounting officer: Yeah the book says 15 the update now is 7

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Is it here? Accounting Officer: Yeah page 8 of the update. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: We have seen here but where is the annex? Accounting officer: Annex is this one annex 7 but it is showing 15 of them. So the 7 we didnt show the seven. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So who are seven? So defense has refused the house. Kabondo since you are from the good region there is a house here for defense they will give it to you. Where are the copies of the withdrawn? Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman we did not come with these copies but they are there but we can even bring them in the afternoon. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: You bring them in the afternoon Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You better give them to us and we see

So what we are trying to recommend here is that the payment should be with effect from the offer from the offer time to avoid loss of interest on the mortgage. So who have not paid the government should reposes the properties immediately. Committee clerk: Roman five Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes accounting officer Accounting officer: Mr. Chairman this category originally it was 181 and some of these fellows hadnt even paid the full 8%. The sales committee revoked actually this we shall also give you a copy of this revocation of the offers. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Now who are there? Whose houses are those? Accounting Officer: Sorry Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They are back to us now Accounting Officer: Yeah the houses will come back to the committee Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: So those one who are there are they paying rent or what? Accounting officer: That is our problem because they did not even perform on their offers

We are now just going to evict them and take back our property. For all this time they have been living there. Those who had paid something will lose it because many of them some performed others half performed. Those who half performed may those one whatever they half performed may be regarded by government as rentals because we are not going to refund any money. Hon. Saleh Kamba: That means those have not even paid the 8%? Accounting officer: They have not fully paid they paid a half way or some percentage. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But accounting Officer you are saying re-allocated here- re-allocated here. You reallocated it to civil servants or the public? Accounting Officer: No, all these things are public servants so even we do re-allocation to the public servant. And we have got cases of recusant members of the public who are actually living in public service properties and they have refused to move out. When we evict them they take us to court and we are continuing with that process also. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok can we have those you re-allocated? You said there are those re-allocated but also here we want them. When you re-allocate do you give the current market value or the value at that time? Accounting Officer: That is now an issue. What do we do? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Is it true you valued these properties which were re-allocated? Accounting Officer: We havent given to him yet Mr. Chairman if you look at these issues some of these guys had been within that protective period which they were still having time with in which to perform. That time has now expired so now it expires you havent performed you reposes. Now since I have been advised the committee would probably say new values then it would be taken to him to be valued. What is that property worth now? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But this was re-allocated at what price Accounting Officer: Where is that re-allocation Mr. Chairman? Official from Ministry of Lands: No, they havent. he said that we shall have to lease properties re-allocated. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No but here I have something from you. Have you seen this table? I have a table whose handwriting is this? Lubowa? Accounting Officer: That is 8 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes You have seen you have it there Accounting Officer:

Yes Official from Ministry of Lands: Those one which are shown as re-allocated the beneficiaries either passed on or the offers elapsed and then they were re-allocated by the committee. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah. At what value? Official from Ministry of Lands: No they were re-valued by the Chief Government value committee. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Can we have evidence of those re-allocated with the values and the re-allocates? So can we have cases of where you have re-allocated and values you gave? Official from Ministry of Lands: It is ok you can have it Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So here now what we are saying those which were re-allocated we want to see the values and who bought them. Those which were non-performing and then we say cancel all. Cancel those which are non-performing. We need proof of that immediately. We want the government Baluwa to do the evaluation. Government Baluwa in three months if you are given this cant you finish it in one week? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman let me answer for him because he is every loaded man. Valuation in ministry is an area which really heavily loaded in that if you just look at this and you

think it is just 4, 5 houses, there are a lot of property and work which is actually on his desk. So he needs to sit down and evaluate. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Why are you interested in this? Accounting Officer: I am telling you my problem because now what do you want me to tell you. I can tell you in one week I would have done it when I cant I need to tell you why I can not do it in that short time. Hon. Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman is the PS why cant you allow him to take his responsibility? Accounting Officer: No, the responsibility of the ministry is mind Hon. Saleh Kamba: Are you the one inspecting his duties? Accounting officer: I know what kind of responsibilities he has Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You have made that man redundant accounting officer Accounting Officer: Really this is my responsibility the general management of the ministry and I know now what is in the pocket of the evaluation I can tell you that he can not finish it in three days. Hon. Peter Mutuluuza:

So in other wards you tell him do three aspects in a week Accounting Officer: No, no I will tell you that do as much as you can the capacity that you have. But I know that the capacity that he has he may not be able to do this on top of other work. He needs to look at this other work then he gives you the answer. Hon. Peter Mutuluuza: On average how many assignments does he do in a week? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman if you can give this evaluation not now because really we need to look at what we have on our plate. All I am telling you is that we have a lot of a plate and I dont have enough capacity. Hon. Peter Mutuluuza: No that is a fake answer when you say you have a lot of assignments. You are talking no sense. Accounting Officer: I am asking the committee to give me some indulges on this area. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So we give you how many days? Accounting Officer: We can answer not less than 2 or 3 days. Today is Friday by Tuesday. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So now this evaluation

Accounting Officer: That is when we shall be able to tell you when we shall complete this work because even this evaluation he hasnt received this as yet. Because the sale committee sat I think on Wednesday this week and it had already said it was going to do this now it has done it then we need to take these properties and pass them over to evaluation instructing them to re-value. Hon.Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman assuming we made a comment that may be the accounting officer is hiding something for it not to be valued. Accounting Officer: No, no otherwise I wouldnt even be issuing the eviction orders and what have you. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok we are giving you; you must instruct him with in two days evict, instruct for reevaluation and we shall give him one month to make sure that these properties are given away to new civil servants. Dont give them to your selves. Accounting officer: We have finished this issue Mr. Chairman I dont want him to open it up again. Please. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok. We are giving you one month Ok. Auditors General also verify that what they are saying was done that means the money which was outstanding it remains there are you getting me? Here they said 150 they are saying there are only 15 that means the others had done it so remember to cross check that it is there that applies to also 131 properties. Committee Clerk: Six

Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman six is the VAT payment to URA and we are saying that remittances to Uganda Revenue were stopped and the URA request the Attorney General that the matter be resolved through an out of court settlement and Attorney General has not yet advised us on what settlement they have arrived at with URA on this issue. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I think this was the price of the houses was going up. Isnt that what it means? Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Why is it that the ministry has to wait for the ministry of justice? Accounting Officer: I didnt hear what you were saying. I am sorry I didnt hear. Hon. Rebecca Atengo: We were talking about the 170 million why is it constant and yet the amounts being received are varying given the evaluations being done; 170 million VAT payments is constant over the years. Accounting Officer (PS): The accounting officer had already explained that these were the arrears according to what he captured actually. There are arrears whose prime schedule had been negotiated between agents HFCU and URA and it was so secure that an appeal had been made to the commercial court and HFCU had been asked to stop remittance to URA until the matter is resolved. The negotiation seems to be between HFCU and URA to pay that constant amount of money over time. Hon. Saleh Kamba: That is the arrears. You mean the subsequent one is up to date?

Accounting Officer: The problem is I think even these arrears of 170 are consistent we had not complete because now the HFCU went again to court and appealed because it stopped and the URA and I think is the one dragged to court for non payment. And that is what we are reporting on that URA and Ministry of Justice they are looking at an out of court settlement and dont know the details on that as yet. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I think accounting officer the argument is here that every month the stock of houses is increasing as it increases the VAT should increase. Why were you maintaining it at 170? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman I think this 170 regards the arrears not with new payments it is arrears and these arrears are likely to cease here in the narration of the audit it was in negotiation then you pay so much for what ever period it was. Then along the line they contest that again and go to court that why at all such I be paying any VAT any way. Hon.Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman I think there are two issues the accounting officer is talking about the arrears but the query is about the sale of pull houses there no is correlation of arrears which means it is other at the time of sale. What is being constant is a figure. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman I am actually looking at the narration of the audit Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Then this one which value is this? Accounting Officer: You see that is the first paragraph you are reading. If you read the 2 nd paragraph of the narration audit the explanation of the accounting officer which he gave at that time which

the auditor picked and put here. This issue came to me when it was actually at this stage of stoppage and the clearance with in URA and justice and that is where it is still. The background I am also looking at is the narration of the audit. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Accounting officer the issue is that you are paying 170 million per month. The stock of the houses is increasing that means the VAT component should be going up to be able to answer this we want you to tell us how did you come to 170? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman that is what I am saying if you look at part B of the narration of the auditor he is saying these were arrears whose repayment scheduled had been negotiated between HFCU and URA they are the ones who negotiated this figure of 170. That is where negotiations were based on. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You get the negotiation because the negotiation must be on a basis. Let us get what was the negotiation? What was the principle amount? Ok. What was decided as the monthly deductions or payments? Then what about the current? Accounting Officer: The current which period Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, let us look 2006/2007 Accounting Officer: Which one the current before the stoppage? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes

Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman if I understand you correctly may be now what you need me to tell you which information I dont have is the basis of this negotiation because I dont have that but I can ask the Housing Finance to give me the details of that negotiation. What were they negotiating before to arrive at this 170 because their negotiation started from the figure I dont which then they agreed with URA that they will now pay 170 for a given period of time which I also dont know and then I can give you that information from Housing Finance because the negotiation was between Housing Finance and URA. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: This value would be constant if the stock of the houses sold is constant so what happens is if your house you had bought it at 20 million they will add on VAT. Are you getting me? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman you see I understand what you are saying supposing you had a bank loan of say 10 million and I cant pay it now we go to tax man we start negotiating and say I cant pay this money but may be we negotiate and say I will pay you 8 million we break it up I will pay you monthly payments of so much then I start paying you the same figure in mind which are arrears. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That one we dont have any problem Auditors General are you ready? Auditors General: May be the PS will have to add us more information on more interest paid on that money plus your minutes. Do you have any money? Accounting Officer:

Yes of course we have an interest then the principal would have been the one to get into the work I am not the principal in the arrangement between the government and the housing finance it is ministry of finance. And it will be with ministry of finance not with me because now the government interest in this case has been taken care of by ministry of finance. It is the principal between the agreements drawn between the housing finance and government of Uganda. Now for me my interest is because I generate the money and also as you noted we need to do the scheme for the public servants to continue assisting the public servants so I am interested in that as a secondary partner but originally the people with that responsibility between the two government it is finance that will represent the government. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I am going to say you should be the one who is having the more interest. You have the houses for your civil servants. Who pays this VAT? Accounting Officer: By the housing finance Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No Accounting Officer: Ultimately yes the people who are putting the money Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Housing finance is the collector on behalf of government Accounting Officer: That is why it was actually stopped Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You are the one making the prices for the houses of the staff too high

Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman with all due respect I am not the principal of this arrangement I dont see how I can become an act when I have no role in the agreement my interest is secondary. Hon. Kabondo Tindamanyire: Mr. Chairman who determines the figure? Accounting Officer: Which figure? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Of VAT Accounting Officer: That is government Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, the government Baluwa gives 20 million that is the basis of VAT and accounting officer it is you who is making the prices of the houses so high first of all you want to reduce the interest. Now you are charging them interest on VAT we are saying you should be very interested to make sure that the rate which is applicable or the amounts is not so high assuming now you have agreement that you should charge them to be passed to the civil servants because this money is being paid by the civil servants. Accounting Officer: Yes Mr. Chairman that is actually why we actually interesting our selves to see how this thing is getting results but when it comes to issues of close follow up I believe in the arrangements that were entered into by government with this bank the principal on the government side should take the responsible and then for me as an interested partner somebody who is to whom it may concern I would be asking this principal to make sure

that this issue we want it to be like this or to be like that. That is why we are even asking the interest payable on the loan scheme should be reduced. Hon. Mathias Nsubuga: Have you got any response from ministry of justice over this money? Accounting Officer: Actually they have not given us any firm response on this Hon. Mathias Nsubuga: I mean have you made any follow ups? Have you written to them? Accounting Officer: Yes that is correct of recent I have not but it was some time back I havent done it again but I just talked to the auditor general that I didnt have position. Hon. Mathias Nsubuga: You are a responsible civil servant you know how things are done me I think you should have showed a letter that you have been following up this issue but you have failed. Accounting Officer: The only thing missing Mr. Chairman is the letter but we have been really following up this issue. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Accounting Officer we are still interested in this 170. How did it come up? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman I was asking for your indulgence and saying that I could provide these responses.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: To who Accounting Officer: Me communicating now with the bank asking them the details other wise I dont have the answer. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You do that we want you to get for us how they came to 170 and that would be the one that will determine the next questions. So without that we can not do much we need to know how you came to 170. You said how many days were you putting your self? Accounting Officer: We havent discussed Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No you have been saying one day, two days Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman it is up to you I am not in control of the response. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok we shall give you seven days by next week on Friday we should be able to have this. Members we have finished the civil servants houses. Is there any body that has a burning issue on houses? You can ask your civil servants. So members we go to the issue of land acquisition but it looks so big. Yes accounting officer. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman this is this Mutungo thing really they have not resolved this issue as yet.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: This is the Mutungo thing? Accounting Officer: Yes Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So what is the status now? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman the status hasnt changed Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Like last year Accounting Officer: Yes this man is still struggling with Mengo Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So the issue is now with Mengo Accounting Officer: And we are still havent moved it is really the same position as it appeared on this point. Hon. Rebecca Atengo: You put it on record If there is a general confusion Accounting Officer: Yeah that the position is really I am just saying that it is still in court because they opened the case against this landlord of this place.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Nsubuga, Nsubuga you follow up this thing with Mengo Since it is court we shall wait Committee clerk: D Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman this issue of D really had to do with some money that had been paid for titles that seemly were encumbered and we now have a copy of these titles showing that they are not encumbered may we may need to but I did no make a copy. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: We can run copies Accounting Officer: Because I wanted to remain with a set of copies Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So this one you are saying they were not encumbered Accounting Officer: You can look at it I think this is the one in query Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Auditor general that they are not encumbered you verify and you let us know Hon. Byarugaba do you have interest in this case? Hon. Alex Byarugaba:

Yes Mr. Chairman I have interest. When I looked at the ranches that have been compensated, Masaka ranches they have not yet in fact recently on the floor of the house they came and said they have never got any thing. Now can he tell us on Isingiro and Ankole ranches? Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman this one here he was really looking at this payment that was done out of this ranching schemes but as general statement on these ranches that were restructured. There has been a problem that we have not been able to pay the claimers for a long time not only Masaka but also other ranching areas and recently the last time we came here I think the committee advised us because even the ministry has never captured these records in our final account which we now give we are interfacing the ministry of finance to see how to get funds to pay these claimers in all the ranching schemes not only Isingiro there is also Masaka, there is Bululi and all other schemes. Government hasnt paid these schemes as it should have paid them basically that is what I am saying. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They were aware that government you know why this was asking because they are the ones who tool the land like us you took our land, Masaka I am sure you are the ones you know the names which are there the Karugabas, the Kabondos and what ever. Accounting Officer: We have since then paid some members not all of them but the small money which come in we pay. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: And another issue is that you took their titles since then up to know you have not returned their titles. Accounting Officer:

There was a problem of clarity because it was not even clear about the surrender of titles and some time last year I actually wrote a general letters to all the claimers under this scheme to give me proof that they actually gave in their documents to assist me to be able to assist me to make a proper record and then start look at that kind of stuff. Hon. Mathias Nsubuga: So you are in the process of making their pension? Accounting Officer: Yes they are coming in now and we are looking at those who dont have and they have actually submitted. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Let us do in this way we want you to give us all the information on all the ranches and how far you have gone to compensate the owners. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman may be they do it this way how much has been valued? How much has been paid? And what is out standing? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So now we are saying we want all the ranches taken over Accounting Officer: What was now out standing is in the region of 18 billion I think the original figure may have been actually what has been paid is very small think what has been paid is in the region of 2 billion. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Have you paid Musiguzi?

Accounting Officer: Musiguzi was never part of this Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: These ranches what does the government use them for when they are bought? Accounting Officer: Actually the scheme has been actually to rationalize there were squatters in these areas they had no land and some individuals had very large ranches so government thought in its wisdom that it could cut pieces from given ranchers and then keep passing them over to these fellows who are squatters leave away the problem of squatting. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman I also know most of them have been together and the squatters have been paid to buy them selves where they have been like say in Busara some people have been honored where was that money before? Accounting Officer: I am not aware of that Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: May be that was for the board ones Hon. Rebecca Atengo: Of record why dont we try to do that in Lango and we see how it moves Accounting Officers: You dont have squatters you have customary land all over Hon. Rebecca Atengo: Squatters are all there we take them there

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What about in Bugisu when are you doing the Squatters in Bugisu? Any way I think we can give you one week to give us this so that we can answer the query of ranches. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: May be Mr. Chairman I dont whether that one can help I have been reading papers about this issue of land in Temangalo we settled it and the ministry was supposed to have issued NSSF their title it seems this land is still encumbered. Who has those land titles as of today? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Amama Mbabazi Hon. Alex Byarugaba: No Official Ministry of lands: The caveats were removed and the transfers done to NSSF Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So the whole land is now in NSSF Official ministry of lands: Yes Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Who had put the caveat? Who had caveated? Official ministry of lands:

NSSF was the one who had caveated Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: How do you remove the caveat it is the owner now? Accounting officer: It was an interested party Accounting officer: That I think clears the error thank you very much Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That including the swamp? Accounting officer: Even if it was there the swamp is part of it Hon. Rebecca Atengo: It is a wrong forum Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: It is a wrong forum but also accounting officer also at this juncture we would also want you to go and find out we are told that there are some government officials who want to take land from Byogerere Kirinya about 700 acres. I am told they are portioning themselves some ministers, some officers 10 acres like they did it at Butabika. I am sure Kabondo you may have been approached by now because you come from a good region. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman if we may conclude this one because it is of our interest really Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Which one? Hon. Alex Byarugaba: That the title has now been given to NSSF how come zay is still on the land? Accounting officer: He can be there as a tenant Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no accounting officer that is not the issue of yours Accounting Officer: What we could say is that the titles that had been of concern in that issue which NSSF had interest in they caveated them protected them as they were going on with the dispute between the sellers and themselves. So when these disputes were dealt away with they actually came and removed the caveat and the page stamp and the titles were transferred. So that land which Mr. Zay is sitting on may be it is now part of this property owner. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no if Zay is sitting on the NSSF it is the due of NSSF to evict him we dont know we are sitting here we may be sitting on some bodys land. Alex can leave NSSF matters to NSSF. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: I wanted them to be modest Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no for you; you have transferred the titles you have handed them to NSSF they could submit them to Zay. Accounting officer we go on

Committee Clerk: 12.3 cash payments Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes accounting officer Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman the recommendation guidance was taken and I am really saying since then we are not doing this kind of the thing. But this is now I think Mr. Chairman there are two issues here may be my answer was not adequate enough. I should have may be appointed out that this was not impress money the ministry thus spend in cash when it goes in to arranging work shops and seminars especially up country where we need to pay participants and there is no other way we can pay them other than cash. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But accounting officer we must tell you that if as you have added we need you to add more information here. You withdrew money 1.1 billion cash now this cash was spent on activities what we want you to be able to jump first to get more than what you authorized you must get the PSSTs authority. No, no if your impress is 1 million then you want to exceed 1 million, I think that is the function which has been delegated to the accountant general or the PSST I dont know. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman my understanding of impress is that but I will still ask my PA to give more light on that but at every beginning of financial year we do request for the authorization of the impress to run the ministry during the financial year and as far as I am concerned that is now the impress. But during the financial year as you transact the business you get business which you need to transact in cash and when you do that transaction to my own way of understand that is not part of the impress, Mr. Chairman with you permission can I ask my PA to add on to that.

Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes let him add on The PA Ministry of Lands: Thank you Mr. Chairman, can I go ahead? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes please you can go ahead The PA Ministry of Lands: I think the PS has been going through this what we are calling interest here is not actually interest this has been our provision during our discussion with the auditors. These are cash payments for the activities not interest. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They are cash what? Payments The PA Ministry of lands: Yes Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What we want you to do is to tell us what was this. Did you get the details of that? The PA Ministry of Lands: He should be having them Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Because if it is a workshop which has been authorized that means you wrote a cheque in the names of some Hotel in Mbale. Accounting Officer:

No, no is not the case this cash should be paying for example you if come to attend that workshop as a fuel refund or some kind of allowance some thing like that. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So that was the payment so you tell us so that we clear this. That would be the one to help you to so what was this one training, workshop? So tell them we clear this but then we are saying that cash payments must be minimized. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman that is appreciated and actually recently ST also guided on that and recently as of that guidance we actually need to ask his express authority because drawing this cash withdrawing which we need to make. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I am told that he has given you 20 now you will planned it in a way that you will make 20,20, 20 or 19.9 Accounting Officer: No, no Because we show why we want that money so when we are going to have a workshop we show say 50 or 70 million cash then we explain it is for this and that. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no that is for clearance Accounting Officer: To clear Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: That was ok but there is what he has allowed you to draw with out going to him

Accounting Officer: But my Ministry doesnt have that kind of money to be withdrawing it on a routine manner. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: There s an audit going on I hope it will come up with all those Now ok we have got these titles we are happy but there are two caveats there is just in Kasaijja and Uganda land commission. Accounting Officer: You didnt give our copy back we gave it to you Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, where is your copy Accounting Officer: You havent given it to me Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They say you have removed the encumbrance. You have not answered the question there are two people who have encumbered it there is Justine Kasaijja and Uganda land commission that is ok. There are two people see here if it is not this one they say released. Accounting Officer: Let her come and explain Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes please Official Ministry of lands:

Mr. Chairman and Hon. Members the encumbrance which was the subject of the query was the mortgages to the Orient Bank the various mortgages and Commercial Bank and they have since then been released. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What about Justine Kasaijja? That is also a mortgage because by the time I put it there I have my interest. What is the interest of Kasaijja? Accounting Officer: She hasnt looked the details of the caveat by Kasaijja Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: But are you sure that it is encumbered? Accounting Officer: Yes Uganda land commission has also caveated it Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah if we go land commission we will not have a big issue but the issue is that of Uganda lands commission and Justine Kasaijja. Hon. Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman doesnt the caveat have specifications? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no it doesnt Official Ministry of lands: It depends on the nature of the caveat honorable Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

I can have it for life that my interest in this is the share This query stands that the caveat has not been removed as requested because they have not if you go to Uganda lands commission alone we would have agreed but given that Justine is on it may be impossible. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman with due respect may be you could give me some time to look at what was the caveat for by that Kasaijja. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yeah, yeah that is what we are saying Accounting Officer: Some times some people put interest because they have a general interest you can know the particular thing then you can just obstruct. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Because he has put on many of them, you better do it so for now we have gone back to tell you that the query still stands. Accounting Officer: Only one title Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: They are many. Accounting officer do you want us to go one by one Accounting Officer: No, no I believe you Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: I know why Alex is happy.

He doesnt want Ok we go a head Committee Clerk: 12.4 Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes accounting officer Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman the query on these issues were really talking about what made you I dont whether it is under budgeting you know under approval of funds for these projects and I think what it was pointing out that these kind of amounts approved or released were not going to make any impact on the implementation of these projects but my answer basically is telling you that these projects are not under my purview they are in the Ministry of Works and Transport. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You see accounting officer as much as they are there they are your query 1. We said we were going to build a house for Kyabasinga we never did it that is why we are losing votes in Busoga because Kyabasinga does not have a house. Byarugaba do you know why we are losing votes in Busoga? Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Whose votes? Who is we? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You know. We the government

Why we are losing in the North we told that we are going to build I think this is Titos house Hon. Rebecca Atengo: And even left out the one of Obote Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: We have even left out that one of Obote Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman I dont know these things Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: The one who really brought us from independence up to now we have done nothing Hon. Rebecca Atengo: Really we dont recognize Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok. So we are saying under works I think what you do you better get the status we are requesting you to get the status on this. But it is important that what the president has pledged becomes a public debt and as a public debt it must be work on. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman this small money that was reduced this was actually I think at the commencement of the new ministries. So when they were deviating this thing they created ministry of lands and urban development and the creator assumed that housing in its entity in its wholeness would move from the former ministry of works housing and communication and move in to this new arrangement and therefore the budget for all housing issues was placed in the new ministry of lands, housing and urban development but that is not what it turned out to be. They arouse now disputes on what is housing and

what should be in public works, what should be in settlements that kind of staff. This moneys the majority of them which were in the budget were actually repatriated to the ministry of works because the argument had been now even though the housing was being described as lands, housing and urban development, these projects had been on the express instructions of chief executive officer of this country remaining for the time being with ministry of works so the budget was repatriated to that ministry. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So we are saying the 123 million for the Kyabasinga house you never touched. Accounting Officer: These small moneys which have been released now remained in the ministry of lands housing. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: What did you use it for? Accounting Officer: We actually allocated it to other uses under the authority of ministry of finance. Hon. Rebecca Atengo: That is diversion Accounting Officer: No I did not divert I received the authority Hon. Peter Mutuluuza: Mr. Chairman what I want to say is that because now the problem we have when they are appropriating our money especially during budget time we are told that this money is going for such and such activity. Now when you tell us it went for other uses is it in the kingdom of Busoga or else where?

Accounting Officer: No, no because now in my ministry I dont have this responsibilities. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: So you got the money Accounting Officer: But I had money released to me which now in activities I dont have. I had activities that had no funds for so I requested ministry of finance to allow me to use this small money that had been released to me on my activities that were not having funds for. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman you can how reluctant some civil servants can be and how they can put us we the representatives of the constituencies it is every serious matter because Mr. Chairman you have just been telling us we are losing votes it is not because we dont want because some of the civil servants are reluctant. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman please protect me Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Protect you from what Accounting Officer: From honorable Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Members let me do it this way Accounting Officer:

Mr. Chairman even the auditor his concern here if you really read his narration he is concerned about this small moneys that were now being approved on these activities and he is saying how were these projects going to move forward on this small moneys. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Yes small Rome was not built in on day Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman is Hon. Byarugaba trying to say that he needs lessons on patriotism? Mr. Chairman even financial management and especially public financial management how is it. What I did was to fight in line with public financial management. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Accounting officer what we want you we had a feeling that these projects were under you now they went to other ministry. So what we want you to tell us is that how bid you use this money meant for those activities. Accounting officer: The small money released to us Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Yes the small ones Hon. Byarugaba: Yes that small one in comparison Accounting Officer: In comparison with the project costs Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

No, by the way members the amount released is this one; dont look at the budget as anticipated. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: It is much money you have done a lot of work with this money Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, but the budget was 3.123 billion Accounting officer were you building a new palace. Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman I have just been reminding that before we even applied for the reallocation of this money we asked our colleagues in the ministry of works whether they wanted this money for running the work which was out side in regulation to this and they did respond and I can give you this correspondence. Accounting Officer: Ok you give us the correspondence Accounting officer: Where they said they wanted only 58 million then the balance we ask for the reallocation. Hon. Alex Byarugaba: Mr. Chairman this is becoming too much just the other day we had health got money for drugs Hon. Members sold drugs and they used it to travel a round the World. You guys! Accounting Officer: Mr. Chairman there is a way Hon. Member is framing it is like really we are doing it. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

No, no members accounting officer never we want auditor to help us Hon. Saleh Kamba: Mr. Chairman they put the Kyabasingas money in the budget and you the technical people the accounting officers you re-allocate this money and even use it for some thing else other then wheat is meant for. Now what is the purpose of the appropriation that budget? Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Now members I want us you see the way I am seeing it the 123 million, the 121million, 70 million if there was no authority and parliament had not re-allocated it I am very sure we did this allocation auditor general should have raised the query. So we members ourselves we may have come that the money we are getting is for goal development of Kyabasinga and we gave it to lands. What we want you to help us now accounting officer because we as members of parliament we are always very busy and we dont comprehend these figures very well. 1. 2. 3. You help us what did you use the 123, the 121 and 70 million. The authority to re-allocate it The confirmation from works that they dont deal with the money.

You know why Hon. Kamba has kept quiet; do you know why? Accounting Officer: No Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: You see him as a kabaka also who works in lands. Hon. Saleh Kamba: Because I understand the reasons why this diversion was done Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi:

Yeah diversions were done Accounting Officer: Not diversion Mr. Chairman it was re-allocation. Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: Ok it was re-allocation. But auditor general also we want you to let us look at their working papers. Accounting Officer: It is not necessary Hon. Nathan Nandala Mafabi: No, no there could be an oversight on our side